Well after over 325 posts on DB I have come to realize that all I have is control over me.
That the best thing to do is continue to fix myself that's all I can hope for.
My WW has noticed the changes I just have to continue to grow.
My old thread:
She says shes conflicted (part 2)
Good for you. I still struggle at times with that. Keep up the good attitude.
I know I sometimes get attacked for my inaction. That is why I realize the only action I can take is on me.
I am trying to listen to my MC as well. She says that all I can do is become the type of husband my WW wants me to be.
The only way to become that is to stop renting space in my brain to OM and to stop trying to control what I can not control.
So this is the first test.
We are going to go food shopping tonight.
She will a" test me" she will try to get me to ask what she did with OM on Sunday
Where she went to lunch today etc...
She already tested me when she called and said she had work to do tonight from home, this means she missed more work today then just an hour, I said nothing.
I even told her for the next two weekends and the days in between I am just getting on with my life. When OM leaves for his country we will pick up where we left off.
The MC believes if I take this approach I will be the better man. I won't be the one constantly pleasing pick me or bashing the other or setting rules that can be viewed as controlling...
I can only control Ox
I am starting to think everyone has given up on me?
Hey Ox not me bud . Im here i know you must love your wife alot as do i love mine and these are incredibly difficult situations . The pain I feel is like nothing Ive ever felt before so to implement DB strategies is difficult for most and almost impossible for others > Is your wife still in an A ? Mine is i believe and possibly more than one . Some days like today I just wanna give up but support on here and other groups help
I just registered here. I read your thread and found links to older threads. There are so many posts now I'm confused about your status.
Who called off the divorce? Why? Are you guys back together? But why did she move out of the bedroom?
When OM leaves for his country we will pick up where we left off.
Don't you think she already knows this?
She has no fear of losing you.
But when OM leaves he will still be her boyfriend in another country.
The difference is now she sYs it's only a strong friendship, there is no intimacy. She is acting like a tour guide showing him around,
I said " except he's trying to convince you to leave your family"
She also said, she moved out of the bedroom because she was tired of lying. She told him you and me were working on the marriage but not together...
She said I am not in a place to be alone with any man.
However, she still wears my wedding band every day.
Sorry about you stitch, it must be a lot harder then what I am dealing with.
I just registered here. I read your thread and found links to older threads. There are so many posts now I'm confused about your status.
Who called off the divorce? Why? Are you guys back together? But why did she move out of the bedroom?
It was a mutual call off. We were supposed to draw up a settlement agreement which turned into a post Nuptial.
Some how the lawyers and collaborative divorce coach decided that they had to get involved in stopping the divorce.
It seems no one trusted the OM her lawyer and the financial neutral felt he has ulterior motives.
The divorce coach a forensic psychologist said we need to try and work things out.
I guess that's why there is a divorce coach in a collaborative divorce.
She moved out of the bedroom as I stated because she was not going to share the bed with anyone. Also, I was going to ask her to move into the extra bedroom. Why should I allow her in my bed until he is completely out of the picture.
Status as Wonka said it's like I am the gAy roommate.
She tells me she loves me I have not said I love you to her except in response.
.
When OM leaves for his country we will pick up where we left off.
Don't you think she already knows this?
She has no fear of losing you.
I am coming to this realization. Not only that she is afraid to really loose me.
I did say to her after she asked...if you choose him, I am out of your life I will never talk to you or spend a second of time with you the rest of my life.
Her response.." Oh that's just selfish, what about the boys, what affect will that have on S21 and S16?
Do you think she is done with the marriage? Is she just living with her son until her goes to college?
Do you think she is done with the marriage? Is she just living with her son until her goes to college?
I think SHE WAS done with the marriage. I think before she met OM she was starting to check out ( as was I , I almost left once).
However, when she moved back home at the end of April I was really good on Sandi's rules for about two weeks.
She started crying one day, not crocodile tears real sons like when her mom and my dad died.
She hugged me and said what's with you, what have you done your making me conflicted...I need help
And she started therapy.
Then she asked the therapist ( who is pro marriage) to see me as well.
THEN SHE CANCELLED THE DIVORCE WITH ME AND MOVED INTO MY BED.( oooops sorry about the caps)
When OM leaves for his country we will pick up where we left off.
Don't you think she already knows this?
She has no fear of losing you.
I do not get this ox. Cadet is right .
You are saying to her, when OM is in town he is your boyfriend and when he leaves I am your husband .
Wow, she has it made
So here is a question.
I originally was going to be home tonight but an appointment for tomorrow got cancelled so instead of being out wed night on the road I will be out today as well. I moved some appointments around.
When the WW left this morning she knew I would be home. Since she has been busy all day with patients she is going to dinner with OM tonight . She is expected home between 8 and nine.
I did not tell her I was gone tonight. We did email about the chance that flights to his country are being delayed.
One person suggested I leave her a letter that she finds when she gets home. She will realize I took care of s16( he loves when no ones home) and she if late will feel the pressure...that she has put on herself to be home for S16 even though he wants no one home.
The other option is to not tell her anything.
Any feedback is appreciated.
Thanks
I think that you are still too focused on her. Do what's best for you and plan according to that. This way, your schedule will seem real (and be real) and not manipulated for her benefit. She will feel the difference, IMO.
When OM leaves for his country we will pick up where we left off.
Don't you think she already knows this?
She has no fear of losing you.
I am coming to this realization. Not only that she is afraid to really loose me.
I did say to her after she asked...if you choose him, I am out of your life I will never talk to you or spend a second of time with you the rest of my life.
Those may have been your
words, Ox, but your
actions have stated otherwise to her, I can assure you.
Starsky
I think that you are still too focused on her. Do what's best for you and plan according to that. This way, your schedule will seem real (and be real) and not manipulated for her benefit. She will feel the difference, IMO.
Ok good point.
"And she started therapy.
Then she asked the therapist ( who is pro marriage) to see me as well.
THEN SHE CANCELLED THE DIVORCE WITH ME AND MOVED INTO MY BED.( oooops sorry about the caps)"
But then she went away with him and now she is out of your bed again and going on dates with him. I just think she has softened you up so you accept the affair and she still plans to leave when your son is gone. Can you live like this until he leaves home and then she leaves?
Ox, I recommend you stop all mention of OM. Don't think about him. Don't talk about him. If she brings him up, put your hand up and say you don't really care to hear about him. If she continues walk out of the room.
I say this because you keep harping on about OM. Forget him. He's a controlling a-hole and your W even admits that. Just let it be. The A, even if it's now only an EA, will die a natural death. Stop poking it. Just let it die on its own.
So by not concerning yourself with OM anymore you are going to free up a whole whack of thinking time. Use that time to work on yourself.
And while you're at it, don't concern yourself where your W is. She's a free person and an adult and can make her own choices.
This will free up even more brain time for you.
All of us in these sitches need to learn to detach. That means working on yourself and GAL. Stop worrying about what she's doing and who she's with. You have no control over her.
I know I have no control over my W. The only thing I can control is me and even that's a major challenge. So I control my thinking. I control my words when communicating. I try to control my feelings. And when my W comes to me to talk I listen intently, trying to understand what she's saying, and trying my darnedest not to react with anything but appropriate validation and/or empathy. If she's pushing my buttons I'll put my hands in a T shape and ask for a time out. Then I'll go outside and take a few breaths and once I've collected myself return to the conversation.
Your W expects certain reactions from you when she says things - those are the reactions you are in the habit of making. Do a 180. React totally differently when she says things. This will take some trial and error, but it's needed in your sitch.
Your MC says you need to become the husband your wife wants. I disagree. You need to become the man that any wife would want. Then if your W doesn't want you, it's her loss. (paraphrased from Sandi's rules: become the H only a fool would leave)
Ox, I recommend you stop all mention of OM. Don't think about him. Don't talk about him. If she brings him up, put your hand up and say you don't really care to hear about him. If she continues walk out of the room.
I say this because you keep harping on about OM. Forget him. He's a controlling a-hole and your W even admits that. Just let it be. The A, even if it's now only an EA, will die a natural death. Stop poking it. Just let it die on its own.
So by not concerning yourself with OM anymore you are going to free up a whole whack of thinking time. Use that time to work on yourself.
And while you're at it, don't concern yourself where your W is. She's a free person and an adult and can make her own choices.
This will free up even more brain time for you.
All of us in these sitches need to learn to detach. That means working on yourself and GAL. Stop worrying about what she's doing and who she's with. You have no control over her.
I know I have no control over my W. The only thing I can control is me and even that's a major challenge. So I control my thinking. I control my words when communicating. I try to control my feelings. And when my W comes to me to talk I listen intently, trying to understand what she's saying, and trying my darnedest not to react with anything but appropriate validation and/or empathy. If she's pushing my buttons I'll put my hands in a T shape and ask for a time out. Then I'll go outside and take a few breaths and once I've collected myself return to the conversation.
Your W expects certain reactions from you when she says things - those are the reactions you are in the habit of making. Do a 180. React totally differently when she says things. This will take some trial and error, but it's needed in your sitch.
Your MC says you need to become the husband your wife wants. I disagree. You need to become the man that any wife would want. Then if your W doesn't want you, it's her loss. (paraphrased from Sandi's rules: become the H only a fool would leave)
You are so right on!!
She came to me this morning and asked if I was Ok, I just smiled at her.
Then after I returned from the Gym I went into my home office to get some work done hoping she would just go toork and leave me alone.
she came in my office and told me where she went and what she did. I just listened.
I realize the POS keeps her out as late as possible to try and rile my feathers. He is trying and trying to get me to go Postal on her.
I do believe this EA will die a natural death. She is starting to push him into the friend zone.
My S16 came in and made a comment that the clothes she had on yesterday reminded him of a school teacher not what she usually wears. She said I did not want to look sexy...so of course I aksed the "did you sleep with him" and she said No way thats not going to happen no matter how hard he tries"
Its a mixed reaction, its a question a girlfriend my ask, but at the same time I believe it reiterated that he is not respecting her boundaries.
After reading your post and rereading all my Sitch I said to myself...OX that is the last question you will ever ask her related to your Sitch!!!
After reading your post and rereading all my Sitch I said to myself...OX that is the last question you will ever ask her related to your Sitch!!!
I hope so.
After reading your post and rereading all my Sitch I said to myself...OX that is the last question you will ever ask her related to your Sitch!!!
I hope so.
So I am not pursuing etc.
Actually when I got home she actually seemed happy to see me.
I have a question when it comes to not planning any dates with her.
She asked if I wanted to go with her to dinner next week?
Is this setting a date or is it ok because she asked?
I was told by an outside source that when WW says to me " how are You" or texts it to me ( which she tends to do every few days) that I should reply with;
" My wife has a boyfriend"
In a calm relaxed kind of flat affect type of tone.
Opinions?
I have my own but I am curious what the more experienced DBers and even Newcomers think...
I would love to know what former WW's think of that comment.
Thanks
Ox
Mmmm, my gut would be that will make him seem nice. Be nice ox, read my thread in new commers, I was nice and I scared a little old lady into hiding.
Be nice, be the bigger human it's more fun by far. Being ok nice and normal is not what Ww and families who support them expect or want. They want you harping, they want you acting badly hurt etc do not give them the power to choose for you. Truely.
Sure, why not. That or "Nanna-nanna-boo-boo," that works well too. Or maybe "I know you are, but what am I?"
Sure.
Sure, why not. That or "Nanna-nanna-boo-boo," that works well too. Or maybe "I know you are, but what am I?"
Sure.
Ok, that was what I thought...thanks for justifying my opinion.
Mmmm, my gut would be that will make him seem nice. Be nice ox, read my thread in new commers, I was nice and I scared a little old lady into hiding.
Be nice, be the bigger human it's more fun by far. Being ok nice and normal is not what Ww and families who support them expect or want. They want you harping, they want you acting badly hurt etc do not give them the power to choose for you. Truely.
So I made her and s16 dinner etc, she's telling me all these plans for us.
She makes me a cup of tea I lean in to kiss her cheek and she pulls away and does uh uh, not on the mood.
So I think of the other night when she said she's " monogamous" so I said oh I guess still monogamous but to other man, she said no asexual to everyone ( I get anxious about the pulling away because she kept kissing and hugging me on Monday and last night she went to dinner with OM and got home pretty late.
So I looked at her and she said Ox we were in public we were not even holding hands...
So stupid dumb arse me said yes but I'm sure you gave him a nice kiss good night , she says I don't want to discuss this.
So I told her remember what the MC said I can ask you questions to make sure we both honor the boundaries we set.
Her reply...there you go again with the higher authority....
My MC said she says this as does OM because they are acting like to teenagers...
I just have to walk away from her when she tempts me...
It just really hurts when one day she's all over me and the next she rejects me...
Ox, I recommend you stop all mention of OM. Don't think about him. Don't talk about him. If she brings him up, put your hand up and say you don't really care to hear about him. If she continues walk out of the room.
I say this because you keep harping on about OM. Forget him. He's a controlling a-hole and your W even admits that. Just let it be. The A, even if it's now only an EA, will die a natural death. Stop poking it. Just let it die on its own.
So by not concerning yourself with OM anymore you are going to free up a whole whack of thinking time. Use that time to work on yourself.
And while you're at it, don't concern yourself where your W is. She's a free person and an adult and can make her own choices.
This will free up even more brain time for you.
All of us in these sitches need to learn to detach. That means working on yourself and GAL. Stop worrying about what she's doing and who she's with. You have no control over her.
I know I have no control over my W. The only thing I can control is me and even that's a major challenge. So I control my thinking. I control my words when communicating. I try to control my feelings. And when my W comes to me to talk I listen intently, trying to understand what she's saying, and trying my darnedest not to react with anything but appropriate validation and/or empathy. If she's pushing my buttons I'll put my hands in a T shape and ask for a time out. Then I'll go outside and take a few breaths and once I've collected myself return to the conversation.
Your W expects certain reactions from you when she says things - those are the reactions you are in the habit of making. Do a 180. React totally differently when she says things. This will take some trial and error, but it's needed in your sitch.
Your MC says you need to become the husband your wife wants. I disagree. You need to become the man that any wife would want. Then if your W doesn't want you, it's her loss. (paraphrased from Sandi's rules: become the H only a fool would leave)
So this was forgotten In that brief interchange above
Mmmm, my gut would be that will make him seem nice. Be nice ox, read my thread in new commers, I was nice and I scared a little old lady into hiding.
Be nice, be the bigger human it's more fun by far. Being ok nice and normal is not what Ww and families who support them expect or want. They want you harping, they want you acting badly hurt etc do not give them the power to choose for you. Truely.
.
She makes me a cup of tea I lean in to kiss her cheek and she pulls away and does uh uh, not on the mood.
So I think of the other night when she said she's " monogamous" so I said oh I guess still monogamous but to other man, she said no asexual to everyone ( I get anxious about the pulling away because she kept kissing and hugging me on Monday and last night she went to dinner with OM and got home pretty late.
So I looked at her and she said Ox we were in public we were not even holding hands...
So stupid dumb arse me said yes but I'm sure you gave him a nice kiss good night , she says I don't want to discuss this.
So I told her remember what the MC said I can ask you questions to make sure we both honor the boundaries we set.
Her reply...there you go again with the higher authority....
My MC said she says this as does OM because they are acting like to teenagers...
I just have to walk away from her when she tempts me...
It just really hurts when one day she's all over me and the next she rejects me...
What plans was she making for you?
Actually she gave me a big mushy kiss tonight and said, wow you have been amazing I see a really different Ox and I am going to tell the MC how you have been.
So this was forgotten In that brief interchange above
Duh. Yeah. Let me repeat it so you can get it through your skull. 2x4 time: Ox, I recommend you stop all mention of OM. Don't think about him. Don't talk about him. If she brings him up, put your hand up and say you don't really care to hear about him. If she continues walk out of the room.
I was told by an outside source that when WW says to me " how are You" or texts it to me ( which she tends to do every few days) that I should reply with;
" My wife has a boyfriend"
No! See above. You're obsessed with the OM. Let it go! Get a life. Really.
And don't try to kiss her. That's pursuing. If she kisses you that's ok. But don't use her advance as an excuse to jump her bones. Maybe a kiss from her is just a kiss. Don't read anything into it. Detach. Distance yourself from her emotions.
My earlier post: print it out. Read it over and over until you internalize it. Stop thinking about OM. Stop pursuing your W. Work on yourself. Work on your need to control. Why do you feel you need to control? Why do you feel a need to make snarky comments to your W about OM?
When she says something to push you buttons, how do you normally react? Describe that reaction. What is the opposite to that reaction? Now choose to do the opposite reaction when she pushes your buttons. That's the 180. You will get a totally different response from W. It will seem awkward and counterintuitive, but keep it up; you'll get more comfortable with the new reactions. And you may see a change in your W. Keep it up for 2 weeks. If things don't improve, then drop that reaction and try something different. (this is straight out of the DB book).
But when OM leaves he will still be her boyfriend in another country.
Everyone don't lose sight of the fact that OX has made every other post of his about OM and his W.
FINALLY he's making it about BECOMING THE BETTER CHOICE>
one thing at a time...this is progress b/c he's finally NOT trying to control those he cannot control. That's a start.
Actually she gave me a big mushy kiss tonight and said, wow you have been amazing I see a really different Ox and I am going to tell the MC how you have been.
Did she give you a cookie, too?
I guarantee you, she was thinking "GOD, he's easy."
I was told by an outside source that when WW says to me " how are You" or texts it to me ( which she tends to do every few days) that I should reply with;
" My wife has a boyfriend"
In a calm relaxed kind of flat affect type of tone.
Opinions?
I have my own but I am curious what the more experienced DBers and even Newcomers think...
I would love to know what former WW's think of that comment.
Thanks
Ox
I don't care what "tone" you use texting (TEXTING tone??)
it's a comment designed to shame her ---and it's STILL ALL about OM!I'd say "i'm fine!
I'm busy going to new fascinating places, meeting new interesting people and doing new, exciting things. Gotta go, bye"
Make it about YOUR LIFE and yours alone. IN FACT, I'd make that comment ^^ my voice mail message
I'm confused as to why you are even entertaining the idea of going on dates with your wife or being physical with her when she is still at the very least spending time with OM. Are you comfortable in an open marriage?
It is very strange to me the way you question her about what she is doing with OM while you also pursue her. It seems very self-destructive to me.
Why have you not set a boundary with your W wrt her still seeing OM and also having friendship with you? ?
So this was forgotten In that brief interchange above
Duh. Yeah. Let me repeat it so you can get it through your skull. 2x4 time: Ox, I recommend you stop all mention of OM. Don't think about him. Don't talk about him. If she brings him up, put your hand up and say you don't really care to hear about him. If she continues walk out of the room.
I was told by an outside source that when WW says to me " how are You" or texts it to me ( which she tends to do every few days) that I should reply with;
" My wife has a boyfriend"
No! See above. You're obsessed with the OM. Let it go! Get a life. Really.
And don't try to kiss her. That's pursuing. If she kisses you that's ok. But don't use her advance as an excuse to jump her bones. Maybe a kiss from her is just a kiss. Don't read anything into it. Detach. Distance yourself from her emotions.
My earlier post: print it out. Read it over and over until you internalize it. Stop thinking about OM. Stop pursuing your W. Work on yourself. Work on your need to control. Why do you feel you need to control? Why do you feel a need to make snarky comments to your W about OM?
When she says something to push you buttons, how do you normally react? Describe that reaction. What is the opposite to that reaction? Now choose to do the opposite reaction when she pushes your buttons. That's the 180. You will get a totally different response from W. It will seem awkward and counterintuitive, but keep it up; you'll get more comfortable with the new reactions. And you may see a change in your W. Keep it up for 2 weeks. If things don't improve, then drop that reaction and try something different. (this is straight out of the DB book).
I like your suggestion about writing down what has not worked and doing the opposite.
I do react better when I write things.
I still remember when my grade school teacher would make you write 200 times, I will not talk out of turn... And guess what that always worked!
I might try that on myself...
I will not talk about OM.
I will not talk about OM
Etc...
Actually she gave me a big mushy kiss tonight and said, wow you have been amazing I see a really different Ox and I am going to tell the MC how you have been.
Did she give you a cookie, too?
I guarantee you, she was thinking "GOD, he's easy."
This goes to what the MC has said..
She told me that even if my WW walks into my office naked I am to NOT go to bed with her, not until OM is out of her head and she is almost 100% emotionally tied to me...
But when OM leaves he will still be her boyfriend in another country.
Everyone don't lose sight of the fact that OX has made every other post of his about OM and his W.
FINALLY he's making it about BECOMING THE BETTER CHOICE>
one thing at a time...this is progress b/c he's finally NOT trying to control those he cannot control. That's a start.
Thanks ! It's nice when you get acknowledgement of some progress
I'm confused as to why you are even entertaining the idea of going on dates with your wife or being physical with her when she is still at the very least spending time with OM. Are you comfortable in an open marriage?
It is very strange to me the way you question her about what she is doing with OM while you also pursue her. It seems very self-destructive to me.
Why have you not set a boundary with your W wrt her still seeing OM and also having friendship with you? ?
He leaves in about two weeks. She has told him to not come back, she does not want him to put her through this turmoil, she can't miss work, she can't miss time with her son.
S21 is moving home with his fiancée due to a job in NYC....
I just did not want to loose any connection we have...
I did tell her I could not go to the gym on the weekends with her while he is here.
She rushes me so that she can get to him by whatever time was set...
The reason is because if she's late she says there is always an " altercation"
Thing is she complains to me that we have worked out together for 30 years...told her I am not your " personal trainer" I am your husband...
She said " I get your point"
This was last Sunday .....
How much time does she spend with each time? How do you know it's not physical do you go check from distance? Or send a friend or PI?. If not are you just letting them have their fun in hopes it's the last hookup?
There is a lot of things not right here, ox.
She's still having an A, just so you are clear. She is spending majority of her time with him. She rushes to be with him. She moved out of your bedroom while she was here ( this was not out of respect for you)
If she was done with him, she would just be done with him. Even if it's not ohysical ( and I truly believe it still is ). Then it's and EA.
And if you are cool with being in an open M, then that's one thing.
I feel for your kids. Watching their dad peruse their mom while she is in an active Affair. It must be so confusing to them.
And she is indeed in an active affair.
It's your life you do as you chose, but your time would be much better spent mainly focusing on you and D 16 and not perusing W.
Just my two cents.
I was offered by a forensic pathologist customer if mine to do a Semen Analysis of her undergarments
Not sure if I want to do this.
On the other hand I am
Not pursuing her anymore.
I have realized it just gets me anxious when I do not like the response
She says she left the bedroom for her own mind. She does not want to be in a bed with any man at this time. I really don't think it was done out of disrespect.
I was offered by a forensic pathologist customer if mine to do a Semen Analysis of her undergarments
Not sure if I want to do this.
You're kidding, right?
Ox, you should really, really listen to GabbysMom. You are on the wrong track.
And... Semen analysis? Ick. Just... No. No.
No.
Why is semen analysis ick? Well, I suppose it's ick in the sense of thinking about his semen on her garments, but so is an STD test ick and so is a paternity test ick. The semen test is to see if she is having sex with OM. That's a good thing to do...to know what is going on. Why do you say Just No?
Ox, you should really, really listen to GabbysMom. You are on the wrong track.
Totally agree. In all my time on these boards (which is a LOT), I don't think I've ever seen another poster combine so much PASSIVITY with yet so much AGGRESSIVENESS. Ox is neither laying any strong boundaries, nor is he leaving his wife alone, either. He allows her to continue her affair, with near-cuckold status for himself, all the while picking at her with "how's your boyfriend" "did you kiss him?" "did you sleep with him?"-type jabs.
Absolutely, positively the WORST hybrid approach you can do, in my opinion. As much as I'm not a big fan of the totally-soft (what I call "Bo-Peep") approach of just waiting out affairs while working on yourself, it would be far better for him to do even THAT than what he's currently doing.
Starsky
Ox, you should really, really listen to GabbysMom. You are on the wrong track.
Totally agree. In all my time on these boards (which is a LOT), I don't think I've ever seen another poster combine so much PASSIVITY with yet so much AGGRESSIVENESS. Ox is neither laying any strong boundaries, nor is he leaving his wife alone, either. He allows her to continue her affair, with near-cuckold status for himself, all the while picking at her with "how's your boyfriend" "did you kiss him?" "did you sleep with him?"-type jabs.
Absolutely, positively the WORST hybrid approach you can do, in my opinion. As much as I'm not a big fan of the totally-soft (what I call "Bo-Peep") approach of just waiting out affairs while working on yourself, it would be far better for him to do even THAT than what he's currently doing.
Starsky
Starsky
I did not say I was going to do it. It's just that she has said he is just a good friend and that she can't break all ties because she does not want to hurt him.
Enough about OM and WW.
I think the reason I have been so passive with the affair is directly related to what you say in the second part of your message about the way I act towards her. That is the issue
For some reason with my wife I have always been two guys at once.
Since I am really trying to stop that and as 25 has said I am a lot better than I was I DONT want to come off as this Out-of control lunatic that packs up his wife's stuff and leaves it on the driveway .
Plus we are equal on the mortgage everything except my family trust inheritance is split 50/50 I was told that it is 99% impossible to get her out of the house,
The only choice is to make her so uncomfortable she leaves...well what good does that do then I am the bad guy----AGAIN.
It's OK for us to disagree, agreeably, Ox. I was mainly just capturing those thoughts for others following along, in case they could take anything from them. "Passive-aggressive" is just about the worst way to DB, so I was pointing it out.
Your wife is an odd bird, so who knows. Maybe this will all work out for you two. I certainly hope so.
Starsky
Ox,
I wonder if the real reason you are focused so much on your W and her OM/A is that turning inward and thinking about what YOU need to do to work on YOU (to become the best YOU that you can be) feels too difficult and scary right now.
I hear that. I was in that place for a long, long time. But I assure you, you will not find peace (within yourself, your marriage, anything) until you LOOK INWARD.
Can you set a teeny tiny goal of going ONE day without focusing on your W and her A? What about half a day? What will you do during that time? What can you reward yourself with if you reach that goal?
Is your IC helping you with any of this!?!? If not, you need to find a new one, stat. You've been at this for months and are still mostly stuck. How can you find the inner strength (and outside support) to help you get UNSTUCK?
It's just that she has said he is just a good friend and that she can't break all ties because she does not want to hurt him.
She is making her choice. What is YOUR choice? You cannot control what she says, does, thinks. You can only control YOU. Will you continue to engage with her in a friendly way? To pursue her? To go on dates with her? When she continues to make this choice?
Think about a boundary you want to set for yourself. Re-read the threads about BOUNDARIES (which are different than demands-- which you cannot make). Set some boundaries.
You are allowing her to hurt you. Have you addressed this in IC? There seems to be a major self-esteem issue going on here. How can you work on that?
It's OK for us to disagree, agreeably, Ox. I was mainly just capturing those thoughts for others following along, in case they could take anything from them. "Passive-aggressive" is just about the worst way to DB, so I was pointing it out.
Your wife is an odd bird, so who knows. Maybe this will all work out for you two. I certainly hope so.
Starsky
Don't get me wrong you are 1000 times correct about MY passive aggressive behavior.
That's what I meant . I have been this way and controlling for a long long time.
So I have been focused on that issue.
My point was maybe that's why now I have been so passive to her. The proverbial walking on EGG Shells comes to mind.
For years in public my friends and family would say"Ox why are you so afraid of your wife"
But once we were alone I was awful! (In terms of arguing and dealing with her previous attacks...I should have just walked out of the room)
Ox,
Is your IC helping you with any of this!?!? If not, you need to find a new one, stat. You've been at this for months and are still mostly stuck. How can you find the inner strength (and outside support) to help you get UNSTUCK?
Actually the new one is the MC and we see her seperately. SHE is helping. The waste of money and time was my old IC, I realized she only listened to me vent and bellyache, said two words to me, took my cash and made the next appointment. That was the waste of money The new one has told me that in the four weeks she has seen a big change.
She is making her choice. What is YOUR choice? You cannot control what she says, does, thinks. You can only control YOU. Will you continue to engage with her in a friendly way? To pursue her? To go on dates with her? When she continues to make this choice?
Think about a boundary you want to set for yourself. Re-read the threads about BOUNDARIES (which are different than demands-- which you cannot make). Set some boundaries.
You are allowing her to hurt you. Have you addressed this in IC? There seems to be a major self-esteem issue going on here. How can you work on that?
You are right, I know she once said I deserved to be hurt over what happened in the marriage, but now she cries and says she does not want to hurt me anymore.
I need to put a stop to the pain.
Why is semen analysis ick? Well, I suppose it's ick in the sense of thinking about his semen on her garments, but so is an STD test ick and so is a paternity test ick. The semen test is to see if she is having sex with OM. That's a good thing to do...to know what is going on. Why do you say Just No?
Emma, have you read the DB books? This type of "snooping" is VERY frowned upon. There's nothing to discover anyhow. We know she's been physical with OM. Nothing new there.
And it's NOT ""a good thing to do" for a reason. We are here to save marriages, not convict our spouses of adultery. In some states it's not even relevant to a divorce and in his case it's not a mystery.
Getting those types of details will further obsess Ox and keep him OFF track, (the "track" I'm referring to, is HIS personal work and growth and LESS obsessing, not more).
Also, "knowing what is going on" is NOT the test for whether something is good for a marriage.
I would urge you to review the chapters on snooping and why it's advised against.'
I'll give you a hint however. If someone KNOWS for 100% certainty that a PA would be a deal breaker, then it may be a good idea to verify it before filing for divorce.
But when you are working thru an affair, and trying to salvage a marriage, when it's not a deal breaker, you don't bother accumulating "evidence" with which to convict/confront or humiliate your spouse.
He's trying to set boundaries AND keep the road home, "paved & smooth", not to make more hurdles for her. She'll have enough as it is. We'll cross that bridge when we get to it.
Do you understand why we say this?
If not, check those chapters out.
I would urge you to review the chapters on snooping and why it's advised against.'
[/b]
I'll give you a hint however. If someone KNOWS for 100% certainty that a PA would be a deal breaker, then it may be a good idea to verify it before filing for divorce.
But when you are working thru an affair, and trying to salvage a marriage, when it's not a deal breaker, you don't bother accumulating "evidence" with which to convict/confront or humiliate your spouse.
He's trying to set boundaries AND keep the road home, "paved & smooth", not to make more hurdles for her. She'll have enough as it is. We'll cross that bridge when we get to it.
Do you understand why we say this?
If not, check those chapters out.[/color]
Thank you 25. I have read the chapters. I wasn't really saying he should snoop regardless but what if it is a deal breaker? Does DB accept that at some point a long affair becomes a deal breaker for some people? Also, I don't understand the part I underlined. Is Ox really doing this? I read all his other threads and he seemed to change his mind about what he's doing. He said if she did various things he would end the marriage but she did them anyway and he is still there. If he is setting boundaries what are they? His wife seems to do as she pleases.
My ex husband had an affair. I found out about a night he spent in a hotel with a work colleague. I always thought there was more to it than one night but he always denied that. That was when our adopted daughter was 3. I felt that after all we went through with infertility and then the blessing of adoption this was a terrible insult. I didn't plan right then and there to leave him but I ended up leaving when our daughter went to college. I think all along I never understood how he could do that to me and I never got over it. If I knew about sites like this I probably would have done things differently.
Anyway, where I think I was similar to Ox's wife is that when she was older I realised that I wanted to leave when she was grown. For the last four years or so until she was 18 I planned to leave and finally did it. I never had an affair but in that four years I considered my marriage to be over and felt my husband had no rights over me any more. I didn't date or go out with any men, but I became very independent, gym, trips with girlfriends and so forth. I basically acted as if my husband was not there. I think Ox's wife sounds a lot like me at that time. I regret this now since I've seen how this hurts. I realise now I was trying to hurt him. I asked Ox what he thought his wife's intentions were and I don't think I got a proper answer. If I did I didn't see it.
Ox,
I wonder if the real reason you are focused so much on your W and her OM/A is that turning inward and thinking about what YOU need to do to work on YOU (to become the best YOU that you can be) feels too difficult and scary right now.
I hear that. I was in that place for a long, long time. But I assure you, you will not find peace (within yourself, your marriage, anything) until you LOOK INWARD.
Can you set a teeny tiny goal of going ONE day without focusing on your W and her A? What about half a day? What will you do during that time? What can you reward yourself with if you reach that goal?
Is your IC helping you with any of this!?!? If not, you need to find a new one, stat. You've been at this for months and are still mostly stuck. How can you find the inner strength (and outside support) to help you get UNSTUCK?
I realise that the post I just made about my history, when/if it shows up goes against what Claire and everyone is telling Ox to do. My post is all about his wife's intentions when Ox should be focusing on himself as you all say.
I'm sorry I did not stick to DB. I just though a bit of my history might be useful. I don't have a newcomers thread since my marriage is over and I am happy with that and not looking for help but I thought it might give context. Sorry again.
Sorry for not answering your question, I try to post while I am I between appointments and occasionally I miss a post. I try not to avoid anyone on purpose.
The truth is I think my wife at some point prior to 2011 had decided she was leaving when S16 graduated high school. I think it really was 50/50 partially to escape from his severe anxiety and depression. ( thank god that's in control) the other was to leave me.
It has begun to be clear as day that she was blaming me for her unhappiness. She had an opportunity when she was in high school to be on broadway. Her father cut that off, her mom had been a singer and had a few affairs and he blamed the " show-biz" life.
She wanted to go to NYU for theater..no, Syracuse for communications..no...and so on.
She ended up in something she liked but always felt there was more.
Every problem in her life became my fault...I deserved some of it there was stuff I did I am ashamed of ( not infidelity).
She befriended our so called Tour Guide and I noticed he targeted her. He and his long time live in stayed with us for a week and he would knock my kids out of the way to get her attention.
She ate it up.
Then S18 had a girlfriend of a different religion, my wife and I did not agree how to handle it, believe me my approach was right. This OM attacked me sided with the wife and the fun began.
Anyhow, after she ran away she missed my S16 and S21, she wanted to move back home for an in home separation. Which we did. We eventually cancelled the divorce but she just can't let go of OM.
I had an interesting meeting with the MC tonight.
I believe that the changes my wife has seen are a combination of the forums and of my MC. A lot of what my MC tells me about behaviors and actions line up exactly with DB and this site.
She also told me to Stop renting space in my head to the OM .....where have we heard that before....DB maybe?
Anyway, now the only thing my WW is afraid of is that the second she dumps OM the old me returns...
I guess it will take time for her to realize the old me is dead...
Every WAS fears that the marriage they left, in which they were very Unhappy, will return if they return.
IOW, your w fears that you will revert to your old self as soon as she gives OM up.
consistent change + sufficient time = change she can believe in.
You have to give it time, & you have to be consistent, and you've done neither.
So look at the title of your thread and get back to YOU.
What are your 180s? What are your GAL?
You cannot detach without GAL, and we hammer the GAL for one reason only....
it works.
Ox, Emma,
see if this story helps illustrate the point some of us are making. It's a true story.
I grew up with a neighbor who was a retired Army Colonel. He had been a POW for several years, in Vietnam.
He and his wife had 5 kids. Years before they moved into our neighborhood, the Colonel had had an affair with some OW.
How did I, a young 17 y/o girl know that the Colonel had had an A?
Oh, I knew b/c everyone knew that b/c "Mrs Colonel" made sure we all knew, so we would not think he was such a great guy.
There were times I wanted to ask the Colonel about his POW experiences. But Mrs. C- would steer the topic away. I truly believed for years, that she was protecting him from a bad memory.
Then l learned that she simply didn't like him getting that type of attention. At the time we knew the family, the Colonel was kind, funny, handsome, strong, and really just a great guy. Yes, we DID admire him.
In contrast, She was a bitter woman, with a snide remark ready for her h at every turn. From how he grilled the meat to a reference letter he wrote for my h, she could NOT give that man a compliment to save her soul. She never praised him in front of her kids or us and she would undermine any compliment others would give him. In short, she lived to make him pay. I'm not exaggerating. She was NOT kind to him at all. I guess She never let him forget what SHE had endured.
Today, only 1 of their 5 kids is married and it's his 2nd or 3rd marriage. The others are all single. 2 never married, and the other 2 keep on getting married repeatedly.
The choice that Mrs C- made was the worst of all choices.
She could have divorced him. She could have gone to counseling and therapy and learned to forgive him. But instead she made the worst but most tempting choice; she stayed married AND stayed miserable.
She never let Colonel forget his sins.
She held it over his head like the sword of Damacles.
She threw it in his face (or threatened to) every time they fought.
She did NOT Forgive him and she did not even try to. Not in a serious humbling way.
Ironically, from where we sat, from what WE saw, HE was the victim and she was the wrongdoer....she was not a woman we sympathized with.
She should have let him go when she found out about the A; or as soon as she realized she could not forgive him; or she should have learned how to forgive.
She could have left her children a beautiful legacy. She COULD have taught and passed on to them, the concepts and practices of true forgiveness, real redemption, deep love and full commitment.
Instead, she passed onto them suspicions, distrust, cynicism, bitterness and big time grudge holding. She did not think he "deserved" forgiveness -- so she overlooked how many others were affected by her choice not to forgive.
I wish she had heard what I heard a few years back, which was
"Holding onto anger, to punish someone else, is like lighting yourself on fire,
-----
-----
-----
to get smoke in their eyes."
Emma, please don't take offense. But does any of this resonate with you?
Ox, you?
Emma,
Your POV would be great to show what the attitude of a WAS is like. Since you held it all in and didn't want to actually work with your H to save the marriage, instead choosing to let it eat away at you, you could probably present insight as to what NOT to do.
You should start your own thread and share your story.
Every WAS fears that the marriage they left, in which they were very Unhappy, will return if they return.
IOW, your w fears that you will revert to your old self as soon as she gives OM up.
consistent change + sufficient time = change she can believe in.
You have to give it time, & you have to be consistent, and you've done neither.
your comment is why I have repeatedly commented that the MC is on the same page as MWD. She tells me that I am 100% a different man then she met a year ago. However, all these changes have taken place mostly in the last couple of weeks. Now she says I need to continue changing shut my mouth and remain consistent . She also had told me that I need to be patient and give it time.
So look at the title of your thread and get back to YOU.
What are your 180s? What are your GAL?
my 180's include ;
-staying Calm
- not asking 100 judgmental questions
-NOT PURSUING, ALLOWING HER SPACE ALLOWING HER TO COME TO ME
The rest are habits
- keeping my home office neat and clean
- helping more with cleaning the house
- not allowing S16 to be disrespectful
- staying clam on the outside even if I am a wreck on the inside
i fail somewhat in the GAL category because of work, and having to spend more time with S16 and helping him learn to drive etc.
But I do go every morning M-F to the gym with my friends versus going with WW
I am going to go on the weekends without her at least while OM is around.
Going to spend more time on the weekend out of the house fishing hiking etc
I have told my friends to let me know when they are going to concerts etc..because I want to go with them.
Not rushing home because she's here.
Doing more business travel then I have done in the past.
Still trying to work on the GAL.
PLUS THE MC thinks I need to be home every night until OM leaves the country.
You cannot detach without GAL, and we hammer the GAL for one reason only....
it works.
This is where I get stuck. I thought that being around without " hanging around" keeps me in the " minds eye" .
Ox, Emma,
see if this story helps illustrate the point some of us are making. It's a true story.
I grew up with a neighbor who was a retired Army Colonel. He had been a POW for several years, in Vietnam.
He and his wife had 5 kids. Years before they moved into our neighborhood, the Colonel had had an affair with some OW.
How did I, a young 17 y/o girl know that the Colonel had had an A?
Oh, I knew b/c everyone knew that b/c "Mrs Colonel" made sure we all knew, so we would not think he was such a great guy.
There were times I wanted to ask the Colonel about his POW experiences. But Mrs. C- would steer the topic away. I truly believed for years, that she was protecting him from a bad memory.
Then l learned that she simply didn't like him getting that type of attention. At the time we knew the family, the Colonel was kind, funny, handsome, strong, and really just a great guy. Yes, we DID admire him.
In contrast, She was a bitter woman, with a snide remark ready for her h at every turn. From how he grilled the meat to a reference letter he wrote for my h, she could NOT give that man a compliment to save her soul. She never praised him in front of her kids or us and she would undermine any compliment others would give him. In short, she lived to make him pay. I'm not exaggerating. She was NOT kind to him at all. I guess She never let him forget what SHE had endured.
Today, only 1 of their 5 kids is married and it's his 2nd or 3rd marriage. The others are all single. 2 never married, and the other 2 keep on getting married repeatedly.
The choice that Mrs C- made was the worst of all choices.
She could have divorced him. She could have gone to counseling and therapy and learned to forgive him. But instead she made the worst but most tempting choice; she stayed married AND stayed miserable.
She never let Colonel forget his sins.
She held it over his head like the sword of Damacles.
She threw it in his face (or threatened to) every time they fought.
She did NOT Forgive him and she did not even try to. Not in a serious humbling way.
Ironically, from where we sat, from what WE saw, HE was the victim and she was the wrongdoer....she was not a woman we sympathized with.
She should have let him go when she found out about the A; or as soon as she realized she could not forgive him; or she should have learned how to forgive.
She could have left her children a beautiful legacy. She COULD have taught and passed on to them, the concepts and practices of true forgiveness, real redemption, deep love and full commitment.
Instead, she passed onto them suspicions, distrust, cynicism, bitterness and big time grudge holding. She did not think he "deserved" forgiveness -- so she overlooked how many others were affected by her choice not to forgive.
I wish she had heard what I heard a few years back, which was
"Holding onto anger, to punish someone else, is like lighting yourself on fire,
-----
-----
-----
to get smoke in their eyes."
Emma, please don't take offense. But does any of this resonate with you?
Ox, you?
Great true story.
Yes, of course. But I will tell you I do forgive my wife. I would never ever bring up this entire nightmare to her as long as I live once we reconciled.
What people got wrong on some of the other boards was they kept saying that because I was trying so hard to save my marriage my boys would see me as weak...
The opposite is true, my S21 told me I was a noble and good man for trying to keep the family together. myS16 feels his mother is in the middle of a nervousness breakdown, he needs to see I won't thro her out or divorce her. He has been through terrible anxiety issues, even his therapists say that any harsh moves against his mother might make him think I would do the same to him if his anxiety or depression ever returns.
I am full of forgiveness..
This thread has helped me let go of my Anger ( which a lot of was directed at myself)
Your boys will chose to see you as weak or strong based upon HOW you try to save your m.
If they see a man who treats himself with respect, honors his own boundaries, and will fix himself , then you can attempt to save your marriage with honor and dignity and your boys can be proud.
If you make these passive aggressive attempts and be appear as a cuckold, then, they will lose respect
And one concept you truly don't understand is what a boundary is and how to enforce it.
And forgiveness isn't " you stopped your A, we will never talk about it again"
You both need some major major changes if you don't want this fiasco happening again. It's not a let it be done and pretend like it never happened sort of situation .
If you make these passive aggressive attempts and be appear as a cuckold, then, they will lose respect
This is where I get totaly exhausted. How can I live in the same house with her with my S16 and soon S21 and his Fiancee21 and not come across as a Jerk but at the same time not be a cuckold.
For example last night I stayed in the MB when she got home I waited for her to come upstairs we talked for a few minutes. When she brought up OM I said, Please stop I want to hear about what you thought of the movie
This is my true sticking point. She says she has seen incredible change in me but I don't want to blow it!!
I have three sessions left with Chuck I think I will call to schedule them. But in the meantime any thoughts are appreciated.
Unfortunately you're in a tough spot, Ox, b/c your wife very likely doesn't take your stated boundaries seriously, based on your past behaviors and unwillingness to enforce boundaries. So when you say "I do not want to hear you talk about OM; we are still married," it goes in one ear and out the other and she comes back and tests you on this again and again and again.
All you can really do is enforce your boundary, and show 100% consistency in it. It's like with kids -- you can stick to your guns 19 out of 20 times, but if it's not 20 out of 20 you've pretty much blown it.
With my wife, I had a pretty good track record already of "saying what I mean and meaning what I say," so I really only had the lay the boundaries once or twice and she abided by them. With you, you have this "passive-aggressive" history with your wife, and some dysfunction there, so it's going to take a longer stretch of being consistent I think.
Starsky
Unfortunately you're in a tough spot, Ox, b/c your wife very likely doesn't take your stated boundaries seriously, based on your past behaviors and unwillingness to enforce boundaries. So when you say "I do not want to hear you talk about OM; we are still married," it goes in one ear and out the other and she comes back and tests you on this again and again and again.
All you can really do is enforce your boundary, and show 100% consistency in it. It's like with kids -- you can stick to your guns 19 out of 20 times, but if it's not 20 out of 20 you've pretty much blown it.
With my wife, I had a pretty good track record already of "saying what I mean and meaning what I say," so I really only had the lay the boundaries once or twice and she abided by them. With you, you have this "passive-aggressive" history with your wife, and some dysfunction there, so it's going to take a longer stretch of being consistent I think.
Starsky
Thanks Starsky, I think your right, I am trying to do the best I can with boundaries.
Part of the Passive aggressive was when I would get mad at her and tell her I was kicking her out etc, knowing full well I could not.
I have really bit my tongue over and over the last week or so. Its just that I have to move from anxiety to calmness before I speak.
For example today I saw she did not deposit her expense check yet. I emailed her to remind her. I started getting anxious thinking she took the money for OM.
She just got back to me that it should be at home and I should deposit it...
Had this been two weeks ago I would be on the phone all nervous and accusatory..
Much earlier this morning mentioned I on another thread (SHO) that I have not said I love you to my wife in a while, as per DB. I also have not been saying it back when she says it to me.
I know the reasons behind this and I even mentioned how WW once said "I am so sick of those words" . OM says them so much it makes me sick. You say it , I can't take it anymore.
I heard her loud and clear.
Now this morning she kissed me on the mouth and said "good-bye, have a good day I will see you later, I Love You"
It just came naturally "I love you too"
I think if I bit my tongue here it would look manipulative.
Ox, Emma,
see if this story helps illustrate the point some of us are making. It's a true story.
I grew up with a neighbor who was a retired Army Colonel. He had been a POW for several years, in Vietnam.
He and his wife had 5 kids. Years before they moved into our neighborhood, the Colonel had had an affair with some OW.
How did I, a young 17 y/o girl know that the Colonel had had an A?
Oh, I knew b/c everyone knew that b/c "Mrs Colonel" made sure we all knew, so we would not think he was such a great guy.
There were times I wanted to ask the Colonel about his POW experiences. But Mrs. C- would steer the topic away. I truly believed for years, that she was protecting him from a bad memory.
Then l learned that she simply didn't like him getting that type of attention. At the time we knew the family, the Colonel was kind, funny, handsome, strong, and really just a great guy. Yes, we DID admire him.
In contrast, She was a bitter woman, with a snide remark ready for her h at every turn. From how he grilled the meat to a reference letter he wrote for my h, she could NOT give that man a compliment to save her soul. She never praised him in front of her kids or us and she would undermine any compliment others would give him. In short, she lived to make him pay. I'm not exaggerating. She was NOT kind to him at all. I guess She never let him forget what SHE had endured.
Today, only 1 of their 5 kids is married and it's his 2nd or 3rd marriage. The others are all single. 2 never married, and the other 2 keep on getting married repeatedly.
The choice that Mrs C- made was the worst of all choices.
She could have divorced him. She could have gone to counseling and therapy and learned to forgive him. But instead she made the worst but most tempting choice; she stayed married AND stayed miserable.
She never let Colonel forget his sins.
She held it over his head like the sword of Damacles.
She threw it in his face (or threatened to) every time they fought.
She did NOT Forgive him and she did not even try to. Not in a serious humbling way.
Ironically, from where we sat, from what WE saw, HE was the victim and she was the wrongdoer....she was not a woman we sympathized with.
She should have let him go when she found out about the A; or as soon as she realized she could not forgive him; or she should have learned how to forgive.
She could have left her children a beautiful legacy. She COULD have taught and passed on to them, the concepts and practices of true forgiveness, real redemption, deep love and full commitment.
Instead, she passed onto them suspicions, distrust, cynicism, bitterness and big time grudge holding. She did not think he "deserved" forgiveness -- so she overlooked how many others were affected by her choice not to forgive.
I wish she had heard what I heard a few years back, which was
"Holding onto anger, to punish someone else, is like lighting yourself on fire,
-----
-----
-----
to get smoke in their eyes."
Emma, please don't take offense. But does any of this resonate with you?
Ox, you?
Thanks for the story 25 but the thing is, you talk about this woman from your perspective as an outsider. You don't know what life was like for her inside that marriage for her. How do you know what she threw in his face every time they fought? Were you there? Did he tell you this? Did you ever talk to her about her life? I'd be interested to hear her perspective on what she endured with her "great guy" husband.
Sorry for not answering your question, I try to post while I am I between appointments and occasionally I miss a post. I try not to avoid anyone on purpose.
The truth is I think my wife at some point prior to 2011 had decided she was leaving when S16 graduated high school. I think it really was 50/50 partially to escape from his severe anxiety and depression. ( thank god that's in control) the other was to leave me.
It has begun to be clear as day that she was blaming me for her unhappiness. She had an opportunity when she was in high school to be on broadway. Her father cut that off, her mom had been a singer and had a few affairs and he blamed the " show-biz" life.
She wanted to go to NYU for theater..no, Syracuse for communications..no...and so on.
She ended up in something she liked but always felt there was more.
Every problem in her life became my fault...I deserved some of it there was stuff I did I am ashamed of ( not infidelity).
She befriended our so called Tour Guide and I noticed he targeted her. He and his long time live in stayed with us for a week and he would knock my kids out of the way to get her attention.
She ate it up.
Then S18 had a girlfriend of a different religion, my wife and I did not agree how to handle it, believe me my approach was right. This OM attacked me sided with the wife and the fun began.
Anyhow, after she ran away she missed my S16 and S21, she wanted to move back home for an in home separation. Which we did. We eventually cancelled the divorce but she just can't let go of OM.
I had an interesting meeting with the MC tonight.
I believe that the changes my wife has seen are a combination of the forums and of my MC. A lot of what my MC tells me about behaviors and actions line up exactly with DB and this site.
She also told me to Stop renting space in my head to the OM .....where have we heard that before....DB maybe?
Anyway, now the only thing my WW is afraid of is that the second she dumps OM the old me returns...
I guess it will take time for her to realize the old me is dead...
Thanks for your post, Ox. I know this story because you've told it dozens of times, but it's all about your history. I asked what you thought her intentions are TODAY. But it doesn't matter because Db is you should not be focusing on her just on you.
Emma,
Your POV would be great to show what the attitude of a WAS is like. Since you held it all in and didn't want to actually work with your H to save the marriage, instead choosing to let it eat away at you, you could probably present insight as to what NOT to do.
You should start your own thread and share your story.
I didn't choose to let it eat away at me. I did work on the marriage for years because I loved him and we had a child. Thing is, he didn't work on his side of the street. He kept his independent life and I never felt I got the truth about the affair. I never knew whether it really was a ONS. He still worked with the woman. He told me to grow up and get over my jealousy. He made me feel that since I got the child I longed for he was entitled to his freedom. I was left to get over it and be happy with what I had, and yes I was very happy as a mother. I didn't have the husband I wanted but I had a wonderful daughter, nice job and home and good friends and family. He was often bad-tempered and dissatisfied and I learned to depend on me. It was only when our daughter was into her teens and spending less time with me that I thought about what would happen when she left and I realised that I did not want to be with my husband. For much of the marriage he left me alone while he lived his life and I started to build a life outside the family for me too, with music and friends. I felt during the last few years that my husband had never shown remorse for his arrogance during and after the affair, and anger throughout the marriage and I didn't want to be with someone like that for the rest of my life.
I think MrsOx might be feeling the same way because of what went on in her marriage for years. The affair part with my husband is not similar, but the sense of wrongdoing for many years seems to be similar for her and me. I read Ox's earlier threads and the violent outbursts and general ranting and raving shocked me. I suspect that like me, she does not see the need to stay with a man who made her unhappy once the kids are off her hands. The Db answer to saving the marriage is work on you, GAL and stop trying to control anyone else. I think if Ox can do that he has a chance.
And forgiveness isn't " you stopped your A, we will never talk about it again"
You both need some major major changes if you don't want this fiasco happening again. It's not a let it be done and pretend like it never happened sort of situation .
See, what is it, though? i always thought forgiveness was putting it behind you and never mentioning it again. We tried to do that but I realised years later that all pretending like it never happened did was made him not need to change. What needs to change so this does not happen again to Ox?
Ok, so here we go again...I need to really GAL, I get to focused on my WW.
This morning she says to me you just need to let me go through this...I promise when I'm done we will work on us.
I said work on us? Hopefully you'll stop seeing OM.
She says I just don't know? What is she so afraid of. She's actually dragging this guy around like a puppy, he has it worse then me...I don't get why he puts up with her.
Why would a guy fight so hard for a married woman!
Yeesh...
It's time for me to just not even speak to her...
Why would a guy fight so hard for a married woman?
Because he values her, finds her desirable.
Do you not see your wife that way?
Ok, so here we go again...I need to really GAL, I get to focused on my WW.
This morning she says to me you just need to let me go through this...I promise when I'm done we will work on us.
I said work on us? Hopefully you'll stop seeing OM.
She says I just don't know? What is she so afraid of. She's actually dragging this guy around like a puppy, he has it worse then me...I don't get why he puts up with her.
Why would a guy fight so hard for a married woman!
Yeesh...
It's time for me to just not even speak to her...
PASSIVE-AGGRESSIVE.
Why would a guy fight so hard for a married woman?
Because he values her, finds her desirable.
Do you not see your wife that way?
Of course I do, why do you think I am fighting so hard for her.
But he is single, no ties to anyone, lives in another country etc...
Thinks he's Gods gift to mankind...etc..
Look you have to know that just me self-talking..
Do you honestly think I won't be able to speak to her?
What else do you see as Passive aggressive? Is there something else in my actions?
train, what I meant was not me fighting for her, this OM?
I have heard everything from money to neediness. I was just saying she has a son at home a 21 year old son and a Husband...
Just because you feel that way about someone it does not make it right to go for a married woman.
I have been struggling to fix myself and save my marriage, does no one think that I feel that way about her and even more.
If you don't see her as someone who is desirable to ANYBODY, regardless of marital status, then you're not fighting for HER. You're fighting to WIN.
Ok, so here we go again...I need to really GAL, I get to focused on my WW.
This morning she says to me you just need to let me go through this...I promise when I'm done we will work on us.
I said work on us? Hopefully you'll stop seeing OM.
She says I just don't know? What is she so afraid of. She's actually dragging this guy around like a puppy, he has it worse then me...I don't get why he puts up with her.
Why would a guy fight so hard for a married woman!
Yeesh...
It's time for me to just not even speak to her...
What happened to saying stop and refusing to let her talk about OM? Boundaries?
Why would a guy fight so hard for a married woman?
Because he values her, finds her desirable.
Do you not see your wife that way?
Of course I do, why do you think I am fighting so hard for her.
But he is single, no ties to anyone, lives in another country etc...
Thinks he's Gods gift to mankind...etc..
Still focusing on him.
If you don't see her as someone who is desirable to ANYBODY, regardless of marital status, then you're not fighting for HER. You're fighting to WIN.
Just the opposite. I have been accused of putting her on a pedestal. I have always seen her as a wonderful woman, who is smart, empathetic and very beautiful.
I just feel that this guy has focused on her looks and the fact that at 53 he has never been happy. But it's not about him it's about me and my wife.
I am not " fighting " to win, he is...
Everyone feels that as soon as she divorces me, goes with him, possibly marries him, the minute those early romantic feelings start to fade, he will cheat on her or leave her...he has a history of having affair after affair, but my WW says " none of those stories are true" despite evidence and proof to the contrary.
I Have been with her since I was 19 and she was 20 and only her. I never even considered myself remotely attracted to anyone else.
Some great advice given by Train and Starsky on Sho's thread!
I am going to have to follow it the rest of this week and from now on myself!
Shodan's Thread
Went out yesterday and got my self a new suit some shirts and ties. I had been putting this off for a while and decided to take the day.
Then took s16 to dinner and had a nice Lobster.
Today went a bought some new supplies for my workshop....I need to start my hobbies again.
So I came back from the gym at 9:30. My WW was in the basement using the home gym.. Probably doing P90X.
I figured I had time to take a quick shower. She comes up and asks me how long I would be, I told her the truth I just got in and would be out in five minutes.
Her comment " oh that's not passive aggressive"
Wtf, first off I jumped in the shower to stay out of her way.
Secondly she's rushing me because she told her special friend she would meet him at 10. I know if she's a minute late he yells at her.
I asked her how is getting in the showers before you passive aggressive?
( I was thinking " so I should sit and wait for you to shower so you can go see OM on time?).( What was I thinking?)
So she apologizes and tells me they went to far away yesterday and she did not drop him off until 1 AM.
I told her your the one who told me you won't be home past midnight, 2:30 AM the night before was way to late.
At first she was preparing to start with me about bringing up the time. Then she said she realizes OM is trying to make me nuts. She fell to sleep in the car and when she woke up he was driving 40 miles an hour!
Then she tells me their conversations are getting boring and redundant.
Then she says the OM is so damn controlling and it's. A problem, but he's well aware of that!
When she got in the shower I got dressed and left for the day...by the time she left I was long gone...
Then I realized she had told me where she was going, she's way behind on work and has to catch up...she and OM must have been nervous I was going to "hunt" them down....
Like I have nothing better to do!
So I came back from the gym at 9:30. My WW was in the basement using the home gym.. Probably doing P90X.
I figured I had time to take a quick shower. She comes up and asks me how long I would be, I told her the truth I just got in and would be out in five minutes.
Her comment " oh that's not passive aggressive"
Wtf, first off I jumped in the shower to stay out of her way.
Secondly she's rushing me because she told her special friend she would meet him at 10. I know if she's a minute late he yells at her.
I asked her how is getting in the showers before you passive aggressive?
( I was thinking " so I should sit and wait for you to shower so you can go see OM on time?).( What was I thinking?)
So she apologizes and tells me they went to far away yesterday and she did not drop him off until 1 AM.
I told her your the one who told me you won't be home past midnight, 2:30 AM the night before was way to late.
At first she was preparing to start with me about bringing up the time. Then she said she realizes OM is trying to make me nuts. She fell to sleep in the car and when she woke up he was driving 40 miles an hour!
Then she tells me their conversations are getting boring and redundant.
Then she says the OM is so damn controlling and it's. A problem, but he's well aware of that!
When she got in the shower I got dressed and left for the day...by the time she left I was long gone...
Then I realized she had told me where she was going, she's way behind on work and has to catch up...she and OM must have been nervous I was going to "hunt" them down....
Like I have nothing better to do!
What happened to saying stop and detaching?
Rolls eyes, it's all about them, not a reflection of you ox!
They are completely nuts, just take my pop corn sit down and enjoy as much as you can the train wreck that's coming. It's so completely wacky and the players cannot see the reality.
Think of the om like this he's dosed in petrol holding a box of matches, either you will light him up (which is btw what he wants to make ox the really really bad guy) or you can wait till he accidentally does it to him self.
Option b will be far better for you. Keep your eyes on option b.
Rolls eyes, it's all about them, not a reflection of you ox!
They are completely nuts, just take my pop corn sit down and enjoy as much as you can the train wreck that's coming. It's so completely wacky and the players cannot see the reality.
Think of the om like this he's dosed in petrol holding a box of matches, either you will light him up (which is btw what he wants to make ox the really really bad guy) or you can wait till he accidentally does it to him self.
Option b will be far better for you. Keep your eyes on option b.
Thanks!
You and my MC are on the same page. A friend of mine told me that she believes my wife is about to implode and I am going to need to pick up the pieces.
By the way it's 9:30 PM and she has to be in work by 7:30AM and guess what, she just got home!
She told me she is feeling sleep deprived. Missed an exit today ended up not getting as much work done etc.
She said something about OM not seeming to care about her well being, he is sucking the life out of her.
I on the other hand helped her deal with the 20 bug bites she got the other night and helped her get ready for tomorrow.
I brought up the reason I jumped in the shower and she said she did not want to talk about it...I know it's mind reading, but if can guess it's because she really was not upset with me she was upset that OM was rushing her.
She also asked me why I was not home when she left this morning, she was really prying to find out what I did.
She also reiterated that she is planning on taking a lie detector test to prove that there has been no PA at this visit.
You do realize even if she passes this lie detector test about having a PA, she is still full on in a EA, right. I mean every night she is out with him. I just hope you know this. You can spend money on semen analysis, lie detectors, or whateve, but she is still having quite the EA.
What happened to your boundaries on listening to her talk about him and complain about him to you? How utterly disrespectful . You can't stop her from doing that, but you can say " I am not going to listen to you talk about him" and walk away.
That's exactly what I did. She was telling me that she was really nervous that she though her meetings today started at 11 but they started at 9 AM.
She started saying why she got nothing done yesterday as soon as she said "he" I said, wow, please don't mention him, if you want to talk about your issues fine but just don't bring him up. She said well he was part of the reason I got nothing done so of course he's in the conversation.
So I replied well then I guess we are done talking about it.
This morning when I went to wake her she whined to me, " is today Saturday" I said no it's Monday. An hour later she was up but whipped out her computer and began reviewing some stuff.
Her entire world is about to come crashing down on her.
Rolls eyes, it's all about them, not a reflection of you ox!
They are completely nuts, just take my pop corn sit down and enjoy as much as you can the train wreck that's coming. It's so completely wacky and the players cannot see the reality.
Think of the om like this he's dosed in petrol holding a box of matches, either you will light him up (which is btw what he wants to make ox the really really bad guy) or you can wait till he accidentally does it to him self.
Option b will be far better for you. Keep your eyes on option b.
I am waiting silently and patiently for option B.
When and if WW gets the guts up to tell him she can't be out late anymore and his last day next weekend she can only see him in the morning he is going to implode on her.
She complains how much he yells at her and how he cries and carries on and then apologizes ( I heard this through a third party), so why put up with that? What is with these WAS and their AP's , why do they rewrite history that we are the ones that did that and they jump right out of the frying pan into the fire!
I am watching my wife slowly implode. She is starting to realize but not admit what a controlling POS the OM is.
It's all about him.
What I can't figure out is why when she tells me he's keeping her out late on purpose or the other day he was driving 45 miles an hour to make her late, why she does not put her foot down.
The other thing is in 32 years we never ever ever stayed out to 2 am from 11 AM , even at Disney or on vacation. Why does she do this with him?
One of my friends thinks if he's driving and she falls to sleep he pulls over and just lets her sleep, just for the sole purpose of keeping her away from me and hoping to make me explode.
They are trying to make you take option a thus making you the bad guy.
Can you smell petrol ox?
Can you see his matches he keeps trying to get you to use?
Then don't! Make him choose option b! Make him his own karma.
Live the don't get revenge get ahead, get ahead in life make it awesome. Make ox awesome.
let it gooooooooooooooo meh should be your mantra.
The other thing is in 32 years we never ever ever stayed out to 2 am from 11 AM , even at Disney or on vacation. Why does she do this with him?
Because women are drawn to strong men.
He EXPECTS her to stay out late because that's what HE wants. So she's drawn to his strength and does what he says. Just like the FEW times you have shown strength, she has been drawn to you and done what YOU asked. Unfortunately, you usually are showing no strength at all, just cleaning up her mosquito bites she got while being out with her lover.
They are trying to make you take option a thus making you the bad guy.
Can you smell petrol ox?
Can you see his matches he keeps trying to get you to use?
Then don't! Make him choose option b! Make him his own karma.
Live the don't get revenge get ahead, get ahead in life make it awesome. Make ox awesome.
let it gooooooooooooooo meh should be your mantra.
Great advice!
That's what I am trying to do. The MC has been working really hard with me. She said that I am about 150 degrees away from where I was . She even said WW has noticed.
I just have to stay calm. The one thing I need to really focus on is slowing down my speech when I am with WW. It makes me look nervous.
Just spoke with Chuck my DB Coach.
I hung up the call and realized I am still to focused on OM and WW.
That is the real issue I need to focus on.
Just spoke with Chuck my DB Coach.
I hung up the call and realized I am still to focused on OM and WW.
That is the real issue I need to focus on.
I hate to say I told you so, but this ^^ really is a message you've gotten here a 100 times.
YES you must NOT make your posts about OM or HER. Make your posts about YOUR LIFE...
IF you keep your eye on them, you cannot GAL.
But when you really are GAL< ------you will not be able to obsess about them, b/c your mind will already be occupied with your new, Fun GAL things & new people in your life.
Make sense? So, back to YOU....
"I hung up the call and realized I am still to focused on OM and WW.
That is the real issue I need to focus on."
Isn't that what EVERYONE has been telling you? You should have used the DB coaching session to figure out how not to do that.
I am watching my wife slowly implode. She is starting to realize but not admit what a controlling POS the OM is.
It's all about him.
What I can't figure out is why when she tells me he's keeping her out late on purpose or the other day he was driving 45 miles an hour to make her late, why she does not put her foot down.
The other thing is in 32 years we never ever ever stayed out to 2 am from 11 AM , even at Disney or on vacation. Why does she do this with him?
One of my friends thinks if he's driving and she falls to sleep he pulls over and just lets her sleep, just for the sole purpose of keeping her away from me and hoping to make me explode.
I don't think they are hoping to make you do anything. I think they're just having their affair and all this "they are trying to do this" is in your head. You don't know what they are trying to do because you can't read their minds.
"I hung up the call and realized I am still to focused on OM and WW.
That is the real issue I need to focus on."
Isn't that what EVERYONE has been telling you? You should have used the DB coaching session to figure out how not to do that.
I am going to make another appointment to do just that.
Just spoke with Chuck my DB Coach.
I hung up the call and realized I am still to focused on OM and WW.
That is the real issue I need to focus on.
You don't seem to follow the Db advice you get. You do something then say 'I just realised I did X' then you do something similar. Is your Db coaching helping change your behavior?
I am watching my wife slowly implode. She is starting to realize but not admit what a controlling POS the OM is.
It's all about him.
What I can't figure out is why when she tells me he's keeping her out late on purpose or the other day he was driving 45 miles an hour to make her late, why she does not put her foot down.
The other thing is in 32 years we never ever ever stayed out to 2 am from 11 AM , even at Disney or on vacation. Why does she do this with him?
One of my friends thinks if he's driving and she falls to sleep he pulls over and just lets her sleep, just for the sole purpose of keeping her away from me and hoping to make me explode.
I don't think they are hoping to make you do anything. I think they're just having their affair and all this "they are trying to do this" is in your head. You don't know what they are trying to do because you can't read their minds.
I disagree. The OM has a strategy he is hoping I go bananas. His ultimate goal is to have me kick her out.
I know this guy, I was his friend at one time.
When he was your friend did he say he was trying to make you bananas? So how do you know he's doing that now?
If you were really not focusing on him you wouldn't be writing all this stuff about him. Its showing you think about him all the time and try and second guess his strategies. That isn't Db in any sense. His strategies should be so irrelevant to you that you don't think about them and if you don't think about them you can't post about them. You only work on you.
"I disagree. The OM has a strategy he is hoping I go bananas. His ultimate goal is to have me kick her out.
I know this guy, I was his friend at one time."
So much for not concentrating on the OM. You still haven't learned. Plus all of that is mindreading.