Old thread, can't figure out how to link old thread so address below:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...603#Post2462603Been a while since I posted. Been focusing on me for a while but kinda poking my head up now to see where I am. W affair ended about 11 weeks ago. From what I've gathered it turns out OM was still married and hadn't told her. W has had serious depression and withdrawal of OM for most of this time. She just recently got her own place and a new job, started counseling and being ratther friendly these days. No sign of her talking about relationship or reconciliation. As for me I've gotten out of the house now that its in foreclosure, couldn't keep up with it on my own, and gotten a nice aparemtn for S and me. W makes no arguemnt that she cannot take S to live with her but constantly wants extra chances throughout the week to come over and see S or meet up out to spend some time with him. I've gotten back to working out, not loosing any additional weight yet but getting fitter. Got S into summer camp and made arrangements for ongoing daycare and registered him for school. Feeling all Mr. Mom at this point.
Interactions with W are pretty pleasant these days. She continues to every once in a while make apologies, but then she cries and drops the subject. Also she makes comments about how much I deserve or how I'm too good. Not sure what that is supposed to mean in our sitch but I try not to read too much into it. W has not filed yet. I started to at one point but did not follow up on it.
Trying to get some sense of what direction to move in at this point. Any input?
Do you still love her and want to be with her in every way ? Because if you do then I feel you need to stay the course and leave the door open for her . Thats if you truly love her
Well of course I still love W. And strangely enough we are able to get along pretty well when we are around each other these days. We can laugh and talk about things. She seems comfortable enough to go through her life issues and problems with the rest of the world and I try to remember my validation without being my old critical self of everyone she talks about. I think that goes well. She still seems to be largely depressed from time to time and isn't dealing well with being away from S so much. She continues to try to make time to get over to pick him up or at least spend time with him here at my place at least once a week. I don't know whether I'm taking the right approach to her though. For the longest time towards the end of OM and afterwards I kept fairly distant and now that OM has been out for many weeks I am allowing us to be around each other. I even let her know S and I are going back to waterpark in a couple weeks and since she was upset to have not gotten to see him go last time she was welcome to come along and she jumped at the chance. But I can't say if my approach is best or not. At this stage of the game, with her finally getting over OM but still so depressed at life I know I can't pursue because she hasn't decided to say she wants to make an effort but feel like there should be a change of tactics.
Its been so long since her demenour was nice that I barely know what to do with it now. I feel like its time to go back and read the books again.
Well Bunches , Ive been living a nightmare for about 4 months .But I truly love my wife even though i have caught her IN BED!! with OM and ive caught her kissing OM #2 is his truck . Which I then proceeded to pull him out of the truck and pummell him mercilessly until he cried like a baby . Did that help my sitch doing that . Absolutely not . Ive seen her with OM# 1 and OM# 2 since . Now I believe there is an OM # 3. I asked her if she wants to be single and she said no , but shes playing the single game . OM#1 and #2 are married but # 3 is single . She tells me shes going out for coffee then I know exactly whats shes doing . How can I still love this woman after that ???? I dont know . So im not trying to minimise anybody elses sitch but sometimes you can see that maybe your sitch is not nearly as bad as someone eles and it will help you make decisions about your own . Hats off to you , you are a strong fellow in wanting to save your marriage
So W was unhappy with missing S birthday at waterpark at the beginning of the month. I had planned on taking him back this last weekend but she wanted to go this time and needed us to move it to allow her availability. So on Sunday just the 3 of us are going to waterpark together to spend the day. I'm trying to focus on having fun and being carefree but unsure how to do that effectively. Also, trying not to ask W about last week. Her brother told me she didn't come home last Thursday night. She apparently decided to take a drive and ended up spending the night at a hotel two states away. Makes no sense, but I can't see what else would make sense. A ended badly over two months ago. Also, she is putting herself in a corner financially. She drew $6,000 to cash last week against her credit card and gave to her mother who apparently guilted her into borrowing the money. Things have seemed pretty pleasant when we are around each other these days but still no sign of her wanting to R.
My only question is, at this stage should I be allowing us to be around each other in these situations in order to attract her back or staying away allowing her space to come back on her own?
That depends; what confirmation do you have that her affair ended, and/or that there isn't an OM2?
In my sitch, I had really strong intel in place so it was much easier to determine how to play these things. Because my advice to you would be far different if I knew there was nothing fishy going on (which the drive/hotel thing doesn't exactly help!!!).
In general, I'd say make it a fun day for your son either way though.
Starsky
Yeah, that's tough for me to know. I don't have intel resources at this point. I am fairly certain about OM 1 being out of the picture. It turned out he is still married and just used W for a side A and then cut her loose when he was ready. She was pretty hurt over the whole thing and according to friends / family she cut ties entirely. I can't be sure that she hasn't begun another A. She just started a new job 3 weeks ago and has been working so much that she hasn't even had more than a couple hours to spend with S outside of her every other weekend. I would hate to think she would be giving up time with S to pursue another A but can't rule anything out.
Another strange event I forgot to mention. Her brother was recently kicked out by his W and is now living with my W. BIL was having a rough year and acted like a jerk too many times and got kicked out. The part about this that worries me is that he has immediately jumped into an A of his own and constantly trying to justify his choices to everyone. I'm thinking this will only reinforce to W that what she is doing makes sense. Nothing I can do of course but just getting it in the log at this point.
OK, gotcha. Then I would disagree with anything "to attract her back" (to draw from your post's questions), but I wouldn't worry about being around each other, especially if it's creating fun and rewarding moments for your son.
So what you are saying is just enjoy myself and S, and don't worry about W. She is there, be friendly but no more than a neighbor and that's it.
That's what I would do. But I am a hard-core, old-school guy that operates (and advises others) from a position of:
Once you've been caught cheating, the burden of proof is on YOU to show that you're NOT anymore. Until you do, I'm going to operate from a position of assuming that you're still in contact with OM, or at least want to be ABLE to be, or that you've started contact with OM#2.
Starsky
Not sure how to classify the weekend. We had plans to take S to waterpark on Sunday. W called Saturday to say she was really tired and had plans with cousin in the morning and wasn't sure she would feel up to going. I just tried to leave it as not a big deal. S and I would go either way so if she didn't want to come along to let us know and I'd just plan on picking him up. I finally heard from her after noon Sunday, way later than we had planned, and she is ready to go. I said nothing about being so late. We had a great time and I tried to keep focus on S and what was fun for him. I thought I was doing a good job at being detached and not pursuing, but sounds like its not so. We stopped to get a bite to eat at one point and W picked up her phone from the storage locker and immediately starts texting. I ask if everything at work and she tells me about this guy at her new job she is talking to all the time who was stuck working Sunday. They share an office and chat a lot I guess. I didn't say anything about it but during lunch she said it was obvious that I was jealous when she brought him up and wanted to assure me it wasn't 'like that'. She explained that he was currently separated from his W and just looking for someone to talk to. I didn't pursue the conversation. Anyhow, W spent the last hour of the day and the trip home being extremely quite.
The overall day was great. A lot of laughs and S had a great time playing with both of us. He rarely gets to do things with both of us now. We also made some arrangements for this week. I have to go back out of town again but needed to figure out getting S back to pediatrician and then arrange the meetup for his open house / meet the teacher event on Friday with W.
She made various comments during the day about being fat, having terrible looking legs, and a few other comments. I wasn't trying to pursue but quickly responded to let her know that wasn't the case. I don't know if she is just trying to get compliments, it seemed like she was authentically being down on herself. I think there is a lot of self doubt on her mind since OM turned out to not care past the point PA.
This last week has been pretty back and forth. No contact since waterpark until Friday. It was meet the teacher day for S school. We met up at the school and went in together. I was tired but tried to play it off. W kept asking me what was wrong and if I was okay. Just said I was fine and smiled. I could tell its bothering her how un involved she is with S school planning this year, which she affirmed later in comment. I managed to get through it focused on S needs and not us. She asked afterwards if we could meetup on the weekend to jointly work on some follow up paperwork for school. I was fairly certain I could handle it but said okay if she wanted to. Plans were to meetup Sunday but she called to say she had forgotten but really wanted to meetup still on Monday evening. She wants to come over and spend time tonight with S before he starts school. She has done this one other time since we moved and I don't know that I like it. She gets to pretend for a few hours that she is there for him when in all actuality she only sees him every other weekend and maybe a couple hours during a weekday between those. It also makes me feel like things are moving in the right direction, but they aren't moving anywhere. She has not been seeing anyone else, that I know of, confirmed by her brother. She makes more effort to be around in the last month and spend time with us, but no comment of wanting to R. She does act fondly when around, makes compliments to me from time to time, and reminds me of the way we used to be when dating at some points. I feel like I'm being misdirected.
Just stay true to yourself and your S. I hope you're doing alright overall.
Thanks Barry! Hanging in there...mostly. I need to get back to major GAL activities. Kind of slacking but with the recent travel for work and the back to school prep I've slid out of working on it. Just started a new schedule that should give me time to work out every day again. Have to be up at 5:30 every day for getting S on the bus, don't have to leave for work until near 8:30. Anyhow, W came by last night and enjoyed some dinner with us. She wanted to help make S lunch for school. I had already given him his bath, set out his clothes for the next day, and packed all his school materials. She made it pretty clear it was driving her nuts that she couldn't do more to be involved. She started to talk about his schedule leveling out and wanting to get him to stay with her more. I didn't say anything and she came to the conclusion on her own that it wouldn't work. He has to be home each day to go to school. She talked about the way people perceive her not having S living with her as a mom. She has left him with me for more than 9 months now. I don't see why now is suddenly any different. Now that she has her own place, I'm sure she just sees that its possible. A little late now though to be thinking of that.
We had a pleasant evening. She stuck around until after he went to bed and went over the paperwork for his new teacher with her. She looked really sad when she left. I broke the pursuing rule a little when she left by giving her a hug. Can't really tell how she feels about me these days. She did make some comments earlier in the night about my clothes. I'm wearing some newer things these days and she seems to like them. Says they look good on me, but she also takes a moment to comment that she tried to get me to wear things like that years ago and I wouldn't then. I chose not to chase those comments. I just let them go.
W messaged tonight wanted to know how S day was back at school. We aranged a quick call at bedtime for her to talk to him. He doesn't really talk back, just jargin still, except for a couple words he repeats back. Anyhow, she talks to him for a minute and then asks about his daily report. Then she goes into her day, telling me about her financial troubles. She didn't get paid on time and hadn't planned funds out with any room so her apartment complex threatened to evict her if she didn't pay immediately with penalty because its her first full month. Anyhow, she borrowed money and got it straigtened out. She also seems to have a nuisance in her new job, someone that doesn't like her very much. She spent several minutes telling me all about it. I still don't understand the back and forth. Some nights she wants to talk to me and others she can't get away fast enough.
W has our S for the weekend. I think those are the hardest times for me. When S is here I know what I have to do with my time and don't let myself get down because he needs me. I feel so damn sad again tonight. I miss her so much. Still trying to focus on GAL when I can. Starting to work out again regularly. Spent all of Saturday with some old friends having a good time. Probably going to go out to a movie on Sunday if I can ever get some sleep.
W has our S for the weekend. I think those are the hardest times for me. When S is here I know what I have to do with my time and don't let myself get down because he needs me. I feel so damn sad again tonight. I miss her so much. Still trying to focus on GAL when I can. Starting to work out again regularly. Spent all of Saturday with some old friends having a good time. Probably going to go out to a movie on Sunday if I can ever get some sleep.
I can completely understand your feelings on this .... Just read your thread and kudos to you ... you are a H a W would be a fool to leave, taking care of your S shows character. Sounds to me like you are doing all the right things, DBing to proper way, and you have had some little positives ... sounds like she is doubting and struggling with the reality of what happened, keep doing what you are doing .. fake it till ya make it ya know .. hang in there.
Thanks CG! It's always good to feel like things are moving in the right direction. I guess my biggest doubt these days revolves around how W is taking things. She is a lot more comfortable around me these days but I can't tell if that's her feeling like we are growing closer or if she feels like she can continue on her way and we can just be good friends...
Anyhow, just updating....W had her weekend with S and we met for dinner to swap him back. Dinner was great, we talked most of the time with plenty of laughs. She told me about things at work and asked me some questions about what is going on. I gave brief updates but remembered to not go on about me. Afterwards W brought up that she forgot to bring back S sneakers, which I said wasn't a big deal because he has a few pair. She asked if she could come by Monday night after work to drop them off. Anyhow, she didn't get off until 8 and came over with the shoes. I expected she would just hover over S but she just sat down and talked to me while I picked up and did dishes. She told me about a story someone at work making a bad joke comment about her not being pretty enough to fight over (stupid story), but I felt like she was fishing for a compliment. I just snickered and said it was a stupid comment the guy made and left it at that. When she left, she gave me a hug and said she was sure she would talk to me in the next few days. I already got some texts from her this morning and she asked me if I was having a rough morning.
W has changed interactions a bit in the last week. She said she thinks its good for S for us to do things as a family so we went to dinner on Sunday. Then she wanted to drop in Monday night and spend an hour with us. She text me yesterday morning to send me some information and asked me about my morning. Then she just text me about an hour ago today to ask about S day yesterday and how my day was going. This is a definite change.
I don't know if its good or bad though. I feel like she is developing the friend zone. I'm a little afraid to just ignore her and wait to see how much she misses me though because this was one of my problem areas before BD. I was quite and didn't take much of an interest in talking about our days or spending time together. Should I be encouraging and nourishing this or just letting her be?
If she's reaching out, I would take it as a positive. Give it some time, then respond in a friendly tone and keep it mysterious. Maybe decline an invite here or there saying you have something else planned instead. You have to start as friends in order to progress to the next step, right?
Having a hard time not trying to reach out to W now. She text me on Thursday afternoon to let me know an Aunt had died. She is always very sensitive to anyone she knows passing. I text her back to let her know I was sorry to hear that and that S and I were around if she needed anything. Not trying to 'save her' or sound uncaring. Trying to let it be since then.
I've been struggling a lot recently to understand things. My W perception of things drives me nuts. I can't say I understand it fully but what I get is she tried communicating for years while I was unresponsive to her needs. She gave up, BD, and was sure she wanted D two weeks later. She started PA but doesn't see it as an A because she had already told me she wanted D. A ends months later because OM is still married and she didn't know. She shows no signs of thinking about reversing course. She is happy to be settling into life without me. The only things I hear from others are she says she regrets how much she hurt me and that she no longer has S.
I know I still focus way too much on my sitch and how I got here. But most other people's sitch's I read on the site have WAS second guessing or going back and forth at least to some degree. I feel like I must be doing something wrong still or not 180 the right things to have gotten no real reaction or change in course in 10 months. Am I wrong? Am I just over thinking it?
Different strokes for different folks, Bunches. The affair only recently ended so while your situation may have been going on for ten months it really has only been going on for the time since her A ended as you didn't stand a chance while she was actively involved with someone else. Keep looking after yourself and your son and things will start to fall your way whether W is part of your future or not.
You have a good point Barry. I don't think she saw me the same at all during A. Now that A has ended I keep hearing from other people that she knows she screwed up. W text again last night.
W: Hey. How's S?
M: He's okay...sleeping now.
W: Did he have a good day at school? How are you?
M: Sounds like school was good. He is having a cranky week so far. I'm feeling well.
W: Why so cranky?
M: Hoping he just got tired from the busy weekend, plus being out late last night. Tomorrow should be better.
W: Oh ok.
Can't really tell if she is warming or just dealing with the guilt of not seeing S enough. She generally texts every 2 - 3 days she doesn't see him. S hasn't seen her again since last Monday.
Another texting exchange with W yesterday:
W: Hey, how was S today?
M: Another rough day for him. Cried in the morning at the bus and with sitter before I came home.
W: Poor Baby. Can I come see him tomorrow?
M: Sure, we can manage that. When?
W: I work until 7 and can come right afterwards. I don't know if he's missing me or not, but this is the longest I've gone without seeing him and it's tearing me up.
M: I'm sure it's difficult for you. It's hard on all of us. You know we keep an open door for visits. I'm sure your schedule makes things difficult though.
W: It does, but I can change things around for him. I need to see him more than this, and he needs it too.
M: I agree. I'm doing the best I can, but I'm sure he would benefit from having you around more.
W: You are doing a fantastic job and don't you doubt it for a second! I'm sure it's hard on you as well. Maybe we can come up with a better system so I can see him more and do more to help you out.
M: I welcome the help. I just don't want it to take away from my time with him. I'm sure we can figure something out. Thanks by the way.
W: I want to do anything I can for our son. And I won't try to infringe on your time. I just want to do more and have time with him as well.
M: I understand. Come by tomorrow after work. S can show you his new dance moves.
W: Ok, sounds good. Thank you.
Sorry for the long post but I'm hoping to get some feedback on my interactions these days. I read DB and check the boards here every day but its one thing to read what you should do and another to implement it correctly in interactions. With S schedule and W work schedule I'm fairly confident we will only be able to come up with her spending time here with us more or out doing things on the weekends. As it is W gets off work at 7 every day and S is supposed to be in bed at 9. Mornings are out because he is on a bus at 6:30. Anyhow, just on my brain this morning obviously.
Looks good Bunches. You've got the validation part down, you're making yourself and your son available to your wife and you're not changing your life around to accommodate her. I think you're in a good spot with how you're handling things.
Thanks for that Barry. I know I can be terrible at implementing the advice others give me some times so its good now and then to check me. The feedback is most appreciated! I know everybody is taking personal time to help each other out here on this site and it means so much to have the support of others here.
Now we will see if I can hold to my DB rules for tonight's visit.
Fingers Crossed!!
So last nights visit from W went terrible. She came in super nice and I think I just let my expectations come creeping in and really shouldn't have. She told me how great the place looked and clean it was, said she was impressed. She saw the new decorating I did in S room and told me I did a great job. Asked about any other plans I had for his room and wanted to see if I would put a large picture of the three of us right above his bed. She asked for something to eat as we were having dinner about the time she arrived. The first part of the evening was great, breezy conversation with some laughs. Then when she wanted to talk about changing S schedule things turned bad. This was probably my fault but I got really mad. She wanted to change the schedule so she could keep her every other weekend but also pick up S twice a week on designated days to take him out somewhere for a few hours. I didn't like this and told her so. I feel like thats too much and with his Autism its harder on him when his schedule is disrupted. Having him out from 6 til just before bedtime twice a week makes it chaos for him. She immediately got defensive and said she was unhappy the way it was and it was 'not going to be that way going forward, whether I liked it or not'. There is where I got mad because she came to my home and started dictating schedule to me. I managed to keep most things to myself rather than saying the things that came to mind, but she said a few things that still having me angry. We talked about several options and eventually settled on Thursdays after her weekend and Tuesdays after my weekend as long as she gets him by 6 and has him home shortly after 8.
A few things she said during the argument bug me. At one point she stared off for a few minutes and asked me "If I decided I wanted to come back right now, would you want me here knowing I don't want to be here?" I didn't give an answer to that one. I did say it wasn't a fair question and it didn't matter what I would say to that. Her feelings are her feelings and I can't give an answer that changed her mind I figured. She also told me we might as well settle on a schedule since there was going to be one in the paperwork anyways. She told me she considered the D papers a formality at this point anyways so we might as well just hammer out what its going to be. Talked about how hard her life is and how much she is not enjoying things and all she does is work, sleep, and think about S and her not being with him.
Anyhow, it could have been worse but I know if I truly had no expectations I would not have gotten upset and defensive.
So I had the chance to work from home today and pickup S from the bus. Didn't have any plans because I wasn't sure how late work would keep me busy but I knew W was coming to pickup S for the weekend so I went ahead and got his stuff ready ahead of time and got myself dressed up like I would for a date, which I don't have. When W called for us to buzz her in at the gate I went out with S and bags to wait for her and pretended I had somewhere to be. Had on some cologne, nice slacks, and new dress shoes. I went straight for putting S in the car and doted on him for just a minute about how much I would miss him this weekend, then just said have a great weekend and turned to leave. W stopped me to ask if it was okay to drop him off at 6 and then commented that I was awfully well dress for working at home for the day. I just said oh yeah, I wasn't dressed like this during the day. I feel kind of stupid doing something like that. But I felt all nasty and sloppy after having worked from a couch for the day. And I know its mind reading but she was smiling too much when she asked about being dressed up, like she thought it was a good thing. Not confused or curious, just happy about it.
I think I'm going to spend some more time shopping this weekend for new clothes. I don't think I did enough picking up new clothes and making it appear like I have a reason to be dressed up. I'm also going to stop being upset about this change in S schedule. Maybe I can take this as an opportunity to go ahead and get out more and do some small things for myself during the week while I don't have S for a couple hours after work.
All aboard the PMA-train. I like how you looked at your son spending more time with your wife as an opportunity to do more things for yourself.
Need some feedback here.
I picked up my S tonight from W's apartment at 6 and he got really upset. He cried for a quite a while after leaving her place like he often does cause he doesn't understand each time she leaves or I have to pick him up. W was really upset as always and kept texting me if he was okay. It really irked me because I get really mad that she has done all this and he has to suffer.
Okay, so I get home and get him to bed and then talk to a friend of mine that helps talk me down when I get really frustrated about all this. Long story short, she tells me that if W wants S to live with her that I should let her have him because kids need their mom's in a special way that is more important than having dad. She has me feeling guilty for keeping my S living with me when I could elect to let him go live with W instead. Am I wrong for keeping S? I feel like I need more than just this one opinion.
NO! You're not wrong! Your son needs you, too! Moms are crucial but dad's are too! HE NEEDS YOU!!! Don't, don't, don't! Your son will adapt!! I promise! Yes, it [censored] and it's a huge reminder of all you're facing every day but it doesn't go away if you are in his life less. He needs that male example and influence. Plus, it's good for you, too!
Start finding things that you and your S6 do together on the first night he's with you. My daughter has Asperger's so I understand the transition problems and lack of consistency. It will take time but if your time with him is structured and predictable, it will give him a sense of calm and he'll associate that with you.
Does your s6 have any sensory needs?
Thanks SS! I think my friend just had me worried for a minute that I was thinking more about me and what I wanted instead of what was important for S. I do need to find some easier activities for us. I take him to these kid zone places around town where he can play and thats kind of an us thing. We also go to this fountain in town where he plays but I need to find something we both can do. He has visual fixations, so I've thought of taking him to sensory movies but he is impossible to keep still or quiet so movie theathres are usually out. He does love music but that usually just has us listening to his kids videos.
Being a good father to your son and being in his life does not mean you're only thinking of you and not your son. That's silly. He needs you and it will not be easier on him to not have you around.
Visual fixations... hmmmm. i read somewhere that watching a fish tank full of fish is calming for those with visual fixations. You can tell S that you'd like to take him to pick out a friend that he can visit at dad's house and get a beta fish. Let him name the fish and every time you see him tell him that the fish misses him and can't wait to see his face, etc.
If he likes music, introduce him to some fun music in the car. My daughter LOVES music and it all started with Michael Jackson.
These are sensory things to help him associate being with daddy as soothing and a good time. The transition part is probably hard, leaving mommy going to daddy... this is where mantras work well with children with Autism. Say the same thing over and over every time during this transition. Something like, "Mommy will be in your heart while you're at daddy's" and when you take him back to mommy's house say, "daddy will be in your heart while you're at mommy's" Sometimes this takes a few months but it really works. It always has to be said calmly and in a soothing tone, almost whispering in his ear while you're touching him.
This process is hard on ALL children but children on the spectrum have an extra set of challenges. Good luck and keep us posted.
A fish actually sounds like a great idea. I'll have to think about where to put a tank but that may work out nicely and he may enjoy that. Not sure if I'm mis interpreting you but my guilt isn't about visiting S. He lives with me. W left him with me at BD. Extremely out of character for her and any mother I keep hearing.
Anyhow, I really will likely look at us picking out fish maybe this weekend while we have some extra time on our hands. Thanks for the idea!
Bunches,
I'm sorry if I implied anything other than my encouragement of you remaining as much in S's life as you're capable.
It is unusual for a mother to leave her kid(s) behind but not unheard of. Could be anything... MLC, guilt, depression, severely overwhelmed. IMO, it SHOULD be out of character for any father to do the same but that's clearly not your situation and that's great!
Fish are great pets. They really help lower blood pressure, too. Can't hurt.
Enjoy!
Thanks for the encouragement. We are hoping to go out Monday to get a fish tank. I might not get the fish at first. I want to see if he interacts with the tank or tries to play with it. Always the risk he might turn it over.
Saw W again yesterday on one of her agreed on nights to take S out after work. I had him ready when she got here so she could just pass through and headed out at the same time. Had a few errands to run. Then I was back ahead of them so I could make a quick exchange. She stopped to talk and had a good 20 min light conversation where she shared her problems with MIL and her work. I didn't pry or offer any advice. I try not to be involved as she has not interest in talking to me normally and I don't want to seem eager for the crumbs of attention. I hope thats right.
Anyhow, whats really on my mind today sounds like some big decisions coming. I've been working for my emloyer for over 7 years now and making really good money for my needs but my time there is coming to a close it seems, likely in the next 6 months. I've been approached by another division of our company that wants to make me an offer, which to be fair I don't have the details yet, but it sounds like something I would enjoy and for matching or more money. Plus I'd get to continue with the same group overall so I'd continue to build more time off each year and greater security. The problem is they will want me to move 2 states away from current place. D has not even started yet but its been on my mind tonight. If W shows no signs still once I have the details of the offer, I have to decide which side of the fence to come down on. If I want to take this offer W will fight me to take S with me and I could loose him unless I go ahead and file to get custody. The way things have been I'm starting to believe I might need to file, get custody, and set myself up securly with this job not considering W or what might happen in the future. If I don't take the job then I will possibly be out of work come Feb. or Mar of 2015 and in a rough spot.
A lot of thinking to do...
I've been posting a lot less these days. I sometimes feel like I use this site as a crutch to find answers or silver bullets which there aren't any of for this 'I know'. Also, the constant checking for posts had become a way of focusing on my sitch instead of on GAL.
I have a couple of questions to set my compass as it were.
1. My W has been sticking to a routine which gives us little face time these days but she has begun calling every night at bed time to talk to S and say goodnight. Our S doesn't really talk much because of his autism so I kinda feel like this has become her chance to ask me how I am and tell me some about her day. Is this a bad thing? Should I be cutting that out?
2. W has finally gotten around to covering all of her financials on her own. Its only been a couple months since she got a steady job to handle her own financial affairs. She has made 'a lot' of effort to apologize for how long I had to carry certain items for her. Is this a good opportunity to give emotional support by saying I'm proud of her doing well by handling it all by herself of just something to validate and leave be?
3. I feel like we are finding ourselves in a strange place these days in interaction. I've had some instances where W will pay me a compliment or two. (smell nice, shirt looks good on you, nice butt) They just feel out of place with her un-wavering stand on not working things out. Should I be encouraging these kinds of things with flirting (i.e. pursuing) or should I just not acknowledge the comments and move on?
I just reached 11 months since BD and feel like I just loose track of what my focus needs to be from time to time. When do you really draw the line and pursue instead of just trying to focus on happy self and GAL?
Hi Bunches,
I'm not a vet and these are my thoughts and I will admit I haven't read your entire sitch.
1). I think it's perfectly fine to be pleasant and chat briefly with your w. Of course, if your PMA isn't great, you can skip a chat.
2) It sounds like your W recognizes and has appreciated your financial commitment during your m. I think it's fine for you to congratulate her on her new position that allows her to cover her expenses. Honestly, each of you being in a positive financial place is good for both of you regardless of whether you. Since your son has special needs, this can alleviate some financial pressure for you both. Yes, I know it's better with one set of household expenses, however it does sound like your w is realizing that it's important to be at to take are of yourself.
3) Bunches, again I haven't read your thread. However, when someone pays you a compliment , it's ALWAYS appropriate to acknowledge it. Do you want to reattract your h? You sound a bit down. I know this can be very difficult-I do. Factoring in a child with special needs can be even more challenging. However, it's okay to engage in some light, breezy chat with your w. If your wife looks nice, it's fine to say "that color looks good on you." Think of it the same way you would be talking to a friend or acquaintance. Heck, I stop people and say "I like your bag" or "you have such lovely hair." And I'm not hitting on them. Just making an observation.
Are you frustrated? You've been at this a while and it sounds like there are some positive interactions. Hang in there!!!
Thanks GB! Honestly, I am frustrated pretty regularly. I avoid R talk or pursuing W but its tough to feel like there is any progress most days. There are a few other things that are adding to the plate that I can't stop thinking about the few occasions that my sitch is not on my mind. My job will be closed out in the new year. I've been with this company 7 years but they don't need me any longer. I have an offer for a great sounding job in NC, 6 hours away from here, and it sounds like I'll have to decide what to do in the next month or two. Haven't talked to W about it yet but don't think that's a good move until the offer is finalized and I have solid information to present.
Matter of fact, I have been having a hard time with how to present that. So far I've been thinking I just sit down with her and present my situation with work and say we have to come to a consensus. I think it should be a family decision as our S lives with me and I would be moving him out of regular visit range.
Thank you for your feedback by the way. I've sometimes forget how much it can help to get re assurance from someone else sharing these painful experiences. Closing in on a year of this is starting to break my hope down. I have a hard time seeing light at the end of the tunnel....or even a tunnel sometimes.
Oh, and to answer your other question, I do want to re attract W. I guess to some degree I just don't know how. When we first met that spark just set things in the right direction and we never had to 'work' at dating or enjoying being around each other. It just kind of happened. From there everything moved so fast and I can't even say when everything got off track. Where to start...
I've been kicking something back and forth this week and want to know if I just need whacked over the head or if there is some merit to this so I wanted to ask others thoughts.
A couple months back there was an argument, over scheduling, where W randomly threw out "the only thing left to our M is paperwork to be done". At another time she made a comment to some friends that we needed to treat each other as if we had a fresh relationship and consider each other as new. One of her complaints to our M was that I didn't pursue her and it keeps making me think that given the space and friendly regard we have these days that it wouldn't be a bad idea to just ask her if she wanted to go out just the two of us.
I know that is pursuing and since its likely a bad idea...I'd like someone to confirm that so I can quit thinking about it. Sometimes I get stupid ideas stuck in my head and would like confirmation. Anyone?
So tonight seemed odd to me....not that it meant anything. I have just been working on PMA recently and trying to focus on my life. W has started to call every night to talk to S at bed time which is not always easy but makes sense.
Tonight was her night of the week to drop by and take him out for a few hours before bringing him home. She was late because of some problem at work so she met us at the playground at my apartment complex. She was frustrated with work and started to tell me about her problems which is abnormal. Then she kind of shut down but asked me if I wanted to go to dinner with her and S. I didn't decline but gave the idea I had other things I needed to do. Anyhow, we ended up going. It was weird though, she spent most of the time spaced out and felt like I was reaching here and there for conversation so I just focused on S instead and things about him happening these days. She insisted on paying for dinner but then realized she didn't have enough money so I had to pay. She then insisted on depositing the money back into my account tomorrow.
Another weird thing...she is having an uncomfortable situation with a coworker she told me and said she didn't want me to get upset but they were good friends she thought until he wanted to make more out of it. She declined which she said gesturing to me "for obvious reasons" and then things haven't been the same since. I didn't press any questions there because I felt like I would be turning the conversation to 'us' but not thinking about how much guys like that worry me....what does for obvious reasons mean? I know I can't answer that and just need to focus on me but like I said at the beginning, weird night.
Not much you can do really. She'll voice her thoughts when she's ready. How's the interstate work option going?
Hey Barry, glad to hear from you. The job out of town is not really going anywhere, I haven't heard back from them but I did find out about a local opportunity that may pan out. Interview is this next week. Thanks for asking.
Good luck with the interview :-)
I'm thinking about going NC again or very little. With S living here I will have to interact with W when needed but I feel like all I'm doing is making things harder on myself by trying to give her plenty of opportunity for interaction. Its gotten to the point where we talk every night for S bedtime and now are doing small things with each other. We had dinner during her visit with S last week when she invited me to come along and today I invited her to join us for carving pumpkins for Halloween.
It's not a tactic, actually if anything I think it won't play in my favor but I can't keep a PMA like this. I've actually gone back to being more depressed these days because I'm thinking about her after every interaction. She may think I'm cutting her off from getting to talk to S every day but its really not about that. If they could just talk to each other I would get him a phone but he can't so it just becomes her talking to me every night. It's been 1 year in 10 more days and still so hard.
The 2.5 months is killing me. I couldn't even imagine a year. My heart goes out for you, Bunches. Maybe going dim would do you guys both some good for the moment.
Gotta look after yourself and your son first, Bunches. Anything with your wife is a bonus. Do what you need to to bring your happiness and confidence back.
Today is one year since BD. Hard not to think about it even at work. Nothing seems to have changed recently. Just coasting along with the sitch being the same as the last couple of months.
Got into a conversation recently about money with her. She wanted to ask my advice and went on to tell me how she has never respected her parents ability to manage money but that it was something she knew she could trust me with. She is talking about declaring bankruptcy and wanted to know what I thought she should do.
She also insisted on paying me back $6k she took against her credit card to loan her mother. The debt will be wiped out if she declares bankruptcy but she feels like she owes it to me because I paid most of that credit card off for her at the beginning of the year and then she drew the money to cash to loan MIL who can't pay it back. She started to say something about not wanting to take things from me anymore but then looked like she was about to get choked up and just changed the subject.
Have completely fallen out of GAL activities. Work is depressing these days, nothing much happening so its very boring most days. Not a lot of time to myself so I try to come up with things to do with S without spending a lot of money.
Seems like I've failed to follow the DB rules again. W called today saying she wanted to talk. She wanted to 'inquire' about the D. I started by letting her know that it's not what I want but that I couldn't stop her and she would do what she needed to. Of course I slipped when she got emotional and told her what I thought again. I said that I thought we needed to try and she responded by saying she had tried and was done trying.
I should have expected this after she had a weekend with some friends who probably asked the state of things and told her that she would feel better once she moved on with her life. She told me that she felt like it was time we both moved on with our lives. Told me it had been a year and that was enough. Feels now like she has just been waiting because someone may have told her se should just to see if anything changed.
I feel now more than ever that I just need to walk away from all of it. I've been giving it a few extra days trying to be sure I was ready to stop talking to her every night on the phone so she can say goodnight to S. I can't do it anymore. It would be one thing if I was better at detaching or if S was getting something out of it. But he doesn't. He never even wants to...he just gives me back the phone immediately every time now.
I'm just done right now...
Bunches, rather than make a 'big' decision. Why not just stop the evening calls. Let your W know that isn't working for you - or for S....Perhaps there are different ways she can keep in touch with your S that aren't so intrusive to your evenings?
I agree that I have to stop the evening calls for my sanity for now. They have caused me to gradually get attached every week. Little things said about what is going on in her life give room to the idea that things are changing in her mind and clearly that isn't the case. At least not to the expectations I'm allowing to form in my mind. She tells me about her day and talks about new friends at work or problems she is having socially. I try not to shut her down when she wants to talk about things. Perhaps she has just been trying to be friendly to maintain a more open door policy with getting to talk to our S.
When I slipped up yesterday and got into the topic of not having tried to work it out I got all the usual responses again. "I tried for years and can't do it anymore...its been a year now and I think its time we both move on with our lives...maybe if the separation had happened a few years earlier we could have worked things out".
The trouble with keeping in touch with S is that he can't do it on his own. S is autistic and can be fairly good with facetime where he can see you but even then he just ends up mashing the end call button right away. He doesn't seem to understand the point and since he doesn't talk outside of repeating single words at a time I don't know that he even gets what is going on when we sit down for a phone call. He can use his IPAD for games and starting his music but those apps are designed for his needs. I think if S could manage a phone on his own I'd just put one up and let him answer it on his own at that time of night. Its just not that easy for him.
Was trying to get the arguement from Sunday off my mind and get back to work today and the first thing I see this morning while waiting on the school bus with S is a picture on FB that cut deep. I don't know if I shouldn't care but I did. W's BF posted Halloween party pictures up on FB. They destroyed her wedding dress and turned it into a zombie costume for BF. A friend of theirs linked it to me as a 'haha'. I know its just a dress but it used to mean something.
Got a call early today from BIL wanting to spend some time hanging out. Didn't have S for the weekend as its W visitation weekend and previous plans fell through so I thought why not. Tonight he tells me he is sorry to have kept quiet for so long but respected me enough that he felt I needed the truth.
W's PA started months before she left me. She was spending days with OM while I was at work. Also, after the first 6 months following BD, I was told the OM had done something unforgivable and would never be spoken to again. At which point W assured she would not see anyone else as long as we were still M. I'm now told she has gotten back with same OM but between that time there was OM2 who was also married to someone else that went on for a couple months. It seems W has not been alone or without someone for the last 2 years now.
I'm not devistated this time. I'm just angry. I don't intend to confront, I don't see the point. W has done nothing but express her wants to D but with cooperation and agreement that we will do things together in S best interest. Going to meet with L again this week. Its time to file. I'm getting nothing but lies all the time at this point. W has no regret or interest in even trying and I feel like a dumb animal tricked into cooperation by empty lies and misleading. W asked me to agree that we would not see other people while still M about 5 months ago and now I find out it was all a show to convince me that she was giving it a chance she never even considered.
I really wish I had listened to the Starsky advice much earlier on. Feel really dumb now.
It's ok, we all do what we think is right.
Did you really want to date?
Did you really want to push the d?
I'm guessing you weren't ready then but sound like you might be now. It's about doing what you think is ok and right for you.
Thanks Ggrass, its good to know that I'm not just making knee jerk stupid reactions again. I'm not ready to date and I didn't think the D was necessary but W has just been lying to me way before she left and getting away with everything. Right now everything is so open ended and none of my rights are solidified with my S because I've never filed. I need the secure that future with S and as for W things are worth being together now and its just obvious she has done none of the work.
Besides that it sounds like I'm going to need to relocate for work soon and if I don't get custody settled, I could be in a bad spot. Filing at this point is about S and I and what we need...not about punishing W. It is what she wants but that doesn't matter now. I'm ready to move on...even if I do look back from time to time.
Hi Bunches, I was so sorry to read of where you are, and how things have been. I can understand why you are so angry. That must be so hard to learn what you have learned, given how hard you have tried.
Remember to find ways to let the anger out. I have taken to bashing pillows on the bed with a rolled up newspaper, whilst ranting and raving. Sometimes I do a primal scream in the car. You just have to find a way to release the anger...
I read recently that LBS tend to recover more quickly from situations like this. Normally they are the ones who have been so hurt and desperate, and have put in so much effort. They know that they hung on as long as they possibly could, and did all that they were humanly able to try and save the marriage. This means that they can actually move on more readily than WS, who have to deal with the fact that they have been unfaithful, dishonest and walked away from their marriage.
Good luck to you :-)
Thank you Toots. I do need to be mindful of the mental state. I have never let my anger get away from me but can get clouded when angry and say the wrong thing. Not hurtful, just stupid things. I've actually done the scream in the car thing when nobody else is around...usually the highway, while moving fast.
I can't really say who will recover faster. Seems my WAW recovered pretty quick to have had some many PA's at this point and still be dating. But that's really of little consequence now. I need to set some new boundaries for now.
Until she values me enough to try to start talking truth and earning some trust, I don't see any reason we should see each other outside of pickups of my S. I also am done with these nightly calls at this point. Its just her getting the chance to feel better like she still has a family at home that loves her. I can't bare that burden for her anymore. I know they say its okay to let WAW come by and see our changes but I can't be around her like this, while she continues to lie about the affairs and act like nothing is going on. I won't take it lying down.
Thanks for commenting guys! Its nice to hear from others.
I think setting boundaries is a healthy thing at this point. Its a shame you feel the need to file but I understand the need to protect yourself and your son in light of your work situation. I hope it all works out.
I can appreciate that point of view Barry. I hate the idea of filing too but I don't feel respected and can barely respect myself now after all she has done and the continuous lies for 2 years now. I don't think it will even phase her but I can't trust her not to make trouble for S and I future. I will see lawyer on Tuesday I hope and if I can just get custody without filing I would but I think it will require filing.
As always thanks for the input and encouragement.
Bunches,
I'm not caught up on your sitch, but just reading pg 6 of this thread I wanted to comment. If D is the route you go, I hope your WAW comes to her senses if ya'll do the educational classes on the affects to the children. Being a parent, you know only you and W know S best.
A friend of my WAW was once engaged to a guy who had a daughter that was special needs. She often vented how it was difficult to raise his daughter. I don't know if the daughter played a role in the future groom's decision, but out of the blue he called it off with my WAW's friend.
Hey Arcola, I appreciate the comments I really do. The short version is this. W has been having continuous A's for nearly 2 years now and wants nothing but D from me. At this point my financial security is at risk and if I don't secure custody I could loose S by either becoming unemployed or taking this job out of state and W refusing to agree to let us move.
I haven't wanted to resort to D and I still don't but I don't see a lot of options if I want to keep my S. I agree I'm in for a long road and may have a difficult time finding anyone else with the challenge I have with S. But he is my S and he needs me. I wish W would come to her senses too but at this point after continuing to uncover lie after lie every so often I don't know that I could get past it any longer. I just don't see any other options.
I welcome any input though, even if it isn't in the direction I'm headed. Thanks for talking to me.
Bunches,
At this point, it seems to need to protect yourself and your son. Decide what YOU want in a divorce, talk to a lawyer and proceed, otherwise you'll get caught like a deer in the headlights.
The slimmest chance your ex will ever turn around is if you take a hard line now. But then, can you really trust her? She seems to be serial cheater.
I suggest you go the Chump Lady website for some humorous but useful perspective.
--Theoden
Thanks Theoden. Luckily I did see a L back in May when PA was confirmed. I L on retainer and have been holding paperwork for 6 more months trying to feel things out. The rabbit whole just seems to keep going though.
Most should be pretty simple. W just wants as much visitation as possible. A little snooping turned up that she has been trying to figure out CS costs recently to see what she is in for as she has been trying to get things together to file anyways. L thinks things will turn out better for me taking the initiative here too. That won't be my reason for proceeding but good to know.
I agree about taking a hard line. I am having some difficulty identifying what a hard line should be. I have been thinking discussion on S needs should be done via email. I'm tired of getting into arguments about what she wants me to do with S. And outside of the visitation schedule, no contact for now. I will ignore texts that don't merit an answer. Any thoughts on how to approach the boundaries at this point?
So I met with Paralegal today at Lawyers office to get things started. Filled out paperwork to begin D. Lots to do and figure out but shouldn't take that long as I expect uncontested. W has been asking about when D can be worked out every couple months for a year now and going on with A 1 or 2 the whole time.
I decided to begin boundaries to stop going out of my way to make things comfortable for her. I can see now that I was trying to win points and I only lost respect instead. W messaged tonight at S bedtime to see if we could have the family call to talk about S and his day, where she usually unloads about her life to me. I may not have done this well, I'm not very good at thinking DB on the spot. Text conversation went like this:
W: Bedtime?
M: Bedtime was 15 minutes ago...please stop texting at nights. We will see you on Thursday for your visit.
W: What is the problem all of a sudden?
M: I don't see a reason to discuss it with you, you will only lie again. You obviously don't respect me and I don't see why I should continue to go out of my way for you like this every day. I respect myself too much for that.
W: Lie about what?
W: If you're not going to let me talk to him at least tell me why.
M: I shouldn't have to explain. If you were willing to work on trust and respect you would have been honest with me by now.
I don't know if I took too much of a hard line there but she has been comfortable to get me to have group time most days and even share stories with me that she has been staying away from men puruing her for months while keeping in the dark that she had OM2 A and back now with OM1 A all in the last 6 months. I believe I've given the gentle and understanding approach more than enough time. Its time to change tactics and scorecard what happens. I'm sure I will get negative kickback for now. But maybe the lies will stop when I stop letting her get away with them.
Thoughts?
M: "Bedtime was 15 minutes ago...please stop texting at nights. We will see you on Thursday for your visit."
Hi Bunches, I think it would have been an idea to leave it at this above. The stuff that came after that didn't seem too useful - and read a bit like going on in circles.
Perhaps if she comes back to you further - asking why it's a problem - you could just reinforce with 'we can discuss it Thursday' and turn your phone off.
I don''t think it's helpful to say things like - 'you will only lie again' & 'you obviously don't respect me' etc. It sounds as though your feelings about lies to you and respect for you are getting tied up with discussions about contact with your S.
It also sounds as though now your W feels you aren't 'letting' her talk to him. Perhaps you could have more of a negotiation - where you say to your W...the nightly call is no longer working for you. We need to change this - or just limit the call to a couple of minutes and don't have the group time...
It could look as though you are trying to limit her contact with your S. because you are cross she has lied/not respected you - which I don't think is a good road to go down.
Anyway - just my thoughts...hope these are useful :-)
No problems with the hard line with regards to any non-S-related contact between the two of you but cover your tracks and facilitate contact between S and W. If bedtime doesn't work, bring it forward in the night.
Toots I see your point. I was trying to not get into the why but even in generalizing without specifics I still essentially started to explain my reasons which shouldn't be necessary. I tend to always want to explain why I think something needs done. Thanks for the thoughts, I need to do a better job about making changes for me and S without dragging W into the why.
Barry, thanks for the response also. I really hope I'm not way off base here. I wish I could paint an effective picture about what a phone call looks like for us as W & S communication. With S being autistic he doesn't seem to understand W is on the phone trying to talk to him. At least I don't think so. She gets on the phone and calls things out trying to get him to repeat her, which to some degree he does. That is one thing he will do, repeat the last word or two of most things someone is saying to him. But I have to answer for him and hold the phone to keep him from throwing it and continuously get his attention for her.
Maybe I am just being selfish, but it doesn't feel like S gets anything out of these nightly calls. It seems more to me that she gets to make herself feel better by having them and I have to facilitate that in order for it to happen. Its so tough to know what to do. It makes her feel better but makes me feel worse every night.
I see you are both right. I don't know why I have this need to justify myself and thoughts to everyone all the time. I did that last night to W after I could have just left it at the first message and I'm doing it again this morning in response to feedback I asked for from both of you.
I'm sorry, and I really do appreciate the feedback. I'll try to consider what you both said and do better next time. Change seems to be so much harder when angry all the time.
Does you son show any positive signs to the communication with your wife? Does he display any negative behaviour when he doesn't have any contact with W? I used to try and talk to my kids through Skype when I worked away from home and despite being largely a waste of time, I enjoyed seeing my kids, albeit briefly, and I feel my kids enjoyed seeing me.
Your W is still in the same town/city as you, right? ie. she could see him more than she does?
S used to show positive signs when we used facetime, but since she got her own apartment out from her mothers she hasn't afforded wifi and can't use it. I normally have to give him the phone locked so he won't just hang it up, he kisses the phone because he is supposed to and then puts it down and grabs a toy. I have to continuously stop him from playing with things and get him to pay attention to the phone. He has strong visual fixations and I'm not sure he even recognizes that his Mom is on the phone or that its not just another app. He plays with apps on his IPad a lot.
He doesn't display negative behaviour when he doesn't get to see her. He is a very happy kid most days. She does pick him up for her every other weekend Friday night through Sunday evening and also comes over to take him out after work 1 weekday each week. She could see him more, she is within 30 minutes of where we live now. Some mixed reasons why she doesn't now. She has a job with some pretty strange hours. Schedule varies anywhere from 6am - 11pm and even some weekend days. She isn't retail but got a great supervisor job at a production facility where you stay when you need to. Also S has to be up before 6 during weekdays to get ready for the bus that comes a long way to get him. Between their schedules she only has about 1.5 hours on the nights she does come out. I was pretty controlling at one point about how often she could come out. I don't think its good for him to be honest. She didn't feel like it was healthy that we all spend time together so she just takes him out to McDonalds most times. I don't think its fair to have S spend multiple weeknights at fast food places each week.
I expect this talk to come up very soon again about her demanding more time. I can understand wanting to spend more time with him, but I think the circumstances need to be fair to him. I also feel bad for him because he is often upset when she leaves him. Most of her visitation weekends I pick him up and he cries the whole way home. I don't know if he just misses his mom that much or if he is just having such a good time that he doesn't want to go home. I feel like it has to be so easy for her to give him a great weekend when she gets him. She only has to manage 2 days every other week.
Wow, that was a longer post than I expected to make. Sorry for that.
So W took S out last night for a couple hours visit. She is obviously agitated at me still for our text exchange earlier this week. I try not to worry about it. I setup a new go to the gym schedule around the weekend and her visits with S so I'm not home when she picks him up from sitter on weekdays. Last night when she dropped him off I was friendly at the door, but its come down to hi...exchange S...have a goodnight. I think this might be the easiest thing for us right now. We don't interact and it should give me more time to focus on me and stop worrying about what is going on with her.
Haven't heard back from L yet on how long the paperwork is going to take to setup. No news yet on new job offer that might have me moving out of state.
Setup a new workout schedule this weekend. Found a cycling class I like and should be going every Saturday / Sunday now. Also came up with a new routine that should help me drop those last 20 lbs I want to get off. Starting to get compliments on looking good these days. Making me feel pretty awesome.
Contact with W all week has been nil. She visited S on Thursday for 2 hours and we only said goodnight to each other but I smiled and appeared pleasant instead of disdainful. Anyways, W startd texting this morning. Wanted to see if I'm inline with DB with convo.
W: How's S?
Me: Good
W: Anything going on with him?
Me: Always...anything specific?
W: Just wanna know how he is and what he's up to. I miss him
I just left it at that. She didn't ask anything specific but I am trying not to do the 'weekly / daily update' anymore, where I just end up telling her all about what is going on in out lives. I think when we were having those nightly calls before she got to know what was up with us and I'm not trying to prevent her from knowing what goes on with S, but am choosing not to facilitate updates from me to her. Does this sound fair?
W text me again early this morning saying "We're going to need to talk soon." I'm fairly certain she is mad, feeling like I'm keeping S from her. I really want to stick to my guns this time about the schedule. She has regular visits with S. I don't want to feel like I need to be spending my time on the phone with her updating his daily events. Is that so unreasonable? And I don't feel like I should feel guilty about this either. W walked out on S and I, not the other way around.
Stick to what you think is right. Don't let her put her guilt on you. My IC phrased it like this..... guilt is a winter coat, don't smother in someone else's. Take it off.
Hi Bunches
Maybe you could let her know that you are finding the nightly calls hard to accommodate now, and seek some sort of compromise? What level of contact from her would you be comfortable with? Maybe use that as a starting point and negotiate...
I read somewhere - she can ask, you can say no - you can both negotiate....
Best of luck...:-)
I like that saying Twin, thanks. How have you been by the way? I noticed you moved to another section, somewhere I'll be joining you soon, but no updates in the last month. I was wondering about you.
Toots, I can see the reason in your point here. I worry that I'm going to end up bending over again for her to get 'her way'. I do appreciate your point though about waiting for her to ask and then decide whether I can or can't do that.
There is a string of this in the last year. I decide to take some small stand at points and shortly after she can't stand it so she comes and tells me how its unacceptable. I feel bad that she misses out on so much of S life at this point, but I also feel like that was her choice. I do want to be reasonable if she came up with a good compromise, but she never seems to. I kind of want to wait for her to think through one on her own. Each time this has happened so far I've given in to some arrangement I didn't really want that ends up having some falsehood or flat lie on her end of the conversation. I don't mean to punish her for lies or false statements, I just don't want to deal with her daily anymore and I'm trying not to focus on her needs. I do agree though with the overall approach that when she wants to discuss it I can just state that I'm uncomfortable with the previous arrangement without justifying my 'truth'.
I know we don't see eye to eye on how things got here so there is no reason to force my truth onto her.
Don't forget to validate and if you're not sure about something, don't be afraid to say something along the lines of "I'll think about it and get back to you."
Thanks Barry, I think that will be the mainstay I use for the inevitable conversation that I think is coming tonight. W will be picking up S for a 2 hr visit tonight so I expect she will want to talk after that.
So I had the conversation last night when W picked up S for her weekend. Things of course were not comfortable. I did manage to stay calm and not throw any remarks un needed...I think. I did use the "I understand how this could be hard on you" and "I see why you might feel that way". We talked about me having a job opportunity out of state and leaning towards taking it at this point, meaning we would go at the beginning of the year. She was not happy and went into things I didn't expect. She feels that she has been laying back and letting me have my way for most of the last year out of guilt. She thinks I have been changing situation around S visitation and contact to suite me. She now "feels" that she is just as good for him as I am.
I think this is leading up to a custody battle, where she has worked up in her mind reasons that make me the bad guy and gives her reasons to try to take S back from me. I don't want to fight over this but I need this job and I have no intention of giving up my S just because she now wants a life here on her own. For years we had the intention that if something opened up abroad that could allow an advancement that we would take it and move. Now its here, we aren't together, and for her that means I should go alone and give up custody to pay her child support. I 'can' see why she wants it to be that way, but that would be making a huge change in my life to accomodate her. Why would I do that?
Bunches,
I'm sorry things are a bit uncomfortable with h. It appears to be a common sentiment amongst the WAS that everyone has been in control of all elements of their lives except them. And while many LBS tend to like control (I'm waiving my arms, jumping up and down and doing a split), the reality is we only control ourselves. That being said (and this is mind reading) don't be so sure she is gearing up for a custody battle. She may just be uncomfortable and trying to "control" something. Yes, a does need both parents in his life so try to do what is right by him.
When it comes to careers, many people may tell you not to move. Unfortunately, you do have to provide for yourself and son so I'm in the other camp. Sometimes we have to do what we have to do to survive.
Hang in there. Try to stay focused and stay calm. Good luck!
What care arrangements can you provide for your son while you're at work, Bunches? Can you get back to your home state reasonably frequently? How would your son deal with travel?
Thanks GB! I'm glad to have the encouragement. It was a rough first conversation and W was not accepting what so ever of the idea of S and I moving further away. She decided to give me a speech about her not lying down for me making decisions on how our visitation is going to work anymore without saying anything. I don't get how she expects this to work. Its not like I am willing to live with her dropping by our home every day. And her current visitation is not outrageous. She has every other weekend Friday evening through Sunday evening plus one week night per week. Is that so abnormal?
Barry, I wanted to answer your questions...curious where you are going. With my current job and the one I will have there I'm able to provide 1 on 1 daycare, which is important to S because of his aversion to loud groups of kids. He gets scared in daycares with lots of kids because screaming upsets him (autism). I've even been looking to enroll him in a private school which I can afford. It takes up most of the money I should be saving but if it makes a difference in his advancement then I'm all for it. Also, my hours are set for this new job 8:30 - 5 while W is on a changing schedule ranging from anywhere between 6 am to 11 pm and some Saturdays. So for me its only after school care for a couple hours.
It would be about a 5 hour drive from where we live now so I'm assuming I would make the trip back one weekend a month and W would make the trip up to see S on another weekend a month. S is normally okay in the car but wants to get out like any other kid once cooped up past a few hours. Travel would not be fun and not my favorite option for him.
For me though a lot of this is about financial stability. Currently I pay for everything S needs. His ABA therapy, Summer Camp, toys, clothes, food, entertainment... W gives us less than $300 per month currently and thats it. She lives paycheck to paycheck because her money keeps going to things she wants to do with friends, plus drinking and smoking. If I don't have an income like I do today, we lose out on a lot. Plus I can't be sure whatever I end up having to do after this has a schedule that gives me time to get home at a fair hour every day for him.
Hey, I'm with you 100%. An income is better than no income. I ask because these questions will come up, particularly the ones regarding your son in a new situation with new people. It sounds like you handled the conversation about as well as you could. Unfortunately, it will probably get harder before it gets easier.
You are definitely right about that. It will get more difficult before it gets better. W wants to meet tonight to exchange S back to me so we can discuss while he plays on an indoor playground. W decided to make some arguements on Friday that I don't agree with. She believes that I should see she has had S best interest at heart and deserves my cooperation for that. Her arguement was that she had S best interest when she left him with me and when she didn't push back at all at first when we had schedule changes early in the year. But to me that's entirely invalid. She left because A and OM were more important and she needed them. To have them she couldn't take S with her and feel like a good mom. Some of these choices in S interest are just the best available choice while still getting what she wanted most.
She is using those arguements as a defense for me needing to 'grow up' and do what is best now. I don't think I should stop to argue the point though, am I right? I just need to stick to what is going to work for me? Do I need her to understand why I'm doing what I'm doing?
Not really. At the end of the day, you've got to be able to feed yourself. If you can't do that in your current state then you've got to do what you've got to do to be able to feed yourself and your son.
Had the follow up conversation with W tonight. Have mixed feelings about the whole thing. We talked about the possible move out of state and she was so stiff about it and kept saying she was probably just not going to accept it. Then she told me she had been thinking about just fighting for custody cause she felt like she should so she could tell him one day that she fought for him. Then she said I seemed to have my mind made up and was probably going to go anyways but didn't see how I could without her permission.
Through most of this I'm just trying to talk about like business. Discuss the options and the pros / cons to each. I didn't let it get away with me but when she said I could not do anything without her permission it just slipped out. I said I could just get a custody order. She looked shocked. I said I'm not saying I would or will but back when I consulted in May they said it would be the best option if we went contested. Which the lawyer did say because of the A and abandonment with her just having walked out, no child support and all. I didn't elaborate the details just mentioned it as a possible. She fell apart at that point and spent the next hour of conversation balling.
We talked about several things. She turned to R at some points trying to explain that she had come to me a couple weeks before BD saying things needed to change but that I just blew her off. I do kind of remember the conversation but I thought it was about money and vacation times because of stress. Just goes to show I really wasn't focused on the right things either then. Anyhow she seemed more willing to sign papers agreeing to my custody saying that she didn't feel like she would have a choice either way. I talked about the needs to the job and what it could mean for S but I think she couldn't get her mind off how much she would not see him.
She did draw back the conversation at one point to why I had said a couple weeks back that I could not trust her with all the lies. She started to tell me that I knew everything and that it was all out in the open. I asked if she remembered the conversation in May where she would never see or talk to OM again or see any other man as long as we were still M. Then asked if she held up to either of those. She cried and went on about how sorry she was and knew she was wrong for the way she had handled everything. I didn't spend time comforting but said I didn't want to make her feel bad, that wasn't my interest.
I know...I shouldn't have gotten into details but when she started fishing for why feeling all justified about me being mean I just didn't know how to avoid at least a little talk. It was about an hour and a half long talk over fast food while S played. W said she had arranged a talk with a L tomorrow but didn't know what to do now. I'm just going to proceed for now on the paperwork, having it modified to include both same state and separate states visitation schedules. Trying not to think about all her regret talk tonight. I don't want to start my old wishful thinking ways.
2 x 4 if you must...I felt overall good about the night even though I did some definite no no's.
I think you were fine. The truth hurts and that's on her to deal with.
Hi Bunches
Sounds like the convo went as well as it could have done, and you handled things well. There are some 'reality' bites in there for your W and it sounds like she isn't finding that easy. Well done to you....
Toots
So shocking turn of events...at least for me. I was expecting a full on argument at some point about this whole move. W messages me around lunch wanting to talk on the phone. I call her and she is a mess, having not slept all night going over how to work this out. She consulted a L this morning and sounds like he didn't paint a picture of a lot of options for her. She insisted on telling me first that she was only even considering this because all things said and done, its the best thing for S support. She would like us to arrange the D with custody arrangement so S and I will move to NC for this job and she would like the following stipulations given:
1. I get Sole Physical custody, not Sole Custody (which had already been said)
2. S spends 1 week visit before or after Christmas each year
3. S spends Spring Break with her every year
4. S spends 1 month with her each summer while I visit instead
5. Insists on phone time every night (which I can live with if its flexible and if she is willing to provide the means)
6. Discounted child support to allow the travel to and from (hotel stay / gas / etc..)
Not what I was expecting but fairly reasonable. Of course she said she isn't agreeing yet. She just wants to get some thoughts out on the table and agreed to before signing. Sounds like she is thinking about trying to abandon life here to move up there when she can but sounds really torn about it. It was a sad call but I kept to myself. She was sobbing the entire time.
I guess it sounds like I'll be migrating to the "Divorced but not done" forum next month. I don't know. My detached feeling these days has me kind of wondering if I'm reaching 'done' faster than I would have expected. Its just not hitting me that hard anymore.
Bunches, I know this goes without saying, but PLEASE don't agree to anything without first running it by your attorney.
Starsky
;)Absolutely Starsky, I of course told her I was writting down her list and would talk to the lawyer first. I said we could meet up possibly late this week to follow up on details and discuss.
There was one more weird thing she asked for but I didn't even write it down because I told her I didn't think that would work. She wanted to alternate years we each claimed S on our taxes. I was kind of dumbfounded by that one. I said I was pretty sure that was a residency thing and he was claimed by the person he lived with for any given year.
I have a friend at work I talked to about this too. She suggested I allow W to stay at our new home in NC when she visits to save on costs as W wants to withold those from support. I don't know that I even want to launch that idea until I feel like its something to be comfortable with.
W did a lot of emotional unloading last night that is still unwinding in my mind. She told me that she wasn't happy with her life and that she didn't feel good about who she was. She felt like I should know that she doesn't just sit around feeling good about who she is now. That she has done some bad things and knows they weren't right. I didn't know what to do with that one but say I'm sorry you're not happy with your life and move on with the conversation. Was that cold?
Hi Bunches, I don't think it was cold to say that, if you said it in a caring way. You were empathising when you said you were sorry she isn't happy with her life.
Yes, you could have gone further - you could have said - I'm so sorry you feel that way. I want you to be happy in your life. I also want to be happy..etc
I guess ultimately, only she can make the decisions she needs to about her life and find the happiness she seeks..
The every-other-year claiming dependent on your taxes thing is pretty common.
Starsky, isn't the every other year tax thing mostly for those that have more shared custody?
I've seen it done in all sorts of instances. It's pretty typical for it to be one of the financial "assets" on the table for negotiation, although I suppose you're right that the IRS itself has strict rules about the # of overnights, etc., someone has to live with you in order to be claimed as a dependent.
Starsky
Luckily when I questioned that one she said right away that she wasn't too attached to that one. My guess is L must have suggested that and the other financial discount ideas. W isn't typical to worry about making money work and is comfortable with living paycheck to paycheck so it didn't sound like her anyways.
Loosing focus today so far. I keep thinking back to how much W lost it while working out details for the move. Talking about how she wasn't happy but still saying she would allow this because it was best for S while crying the whole time. I don't understand how during this whole time it couldn't have occurred to her that the family staying together would have been best for S and she robbed him of that. Makes me so mad sometimes. Gotta get back on the PMA somehow. 'I am' worth the work and she is too busy pitying herself to kick it in the *ss and try.
New life here I come!
So I didn't realize I was going into a zone of crazy agitated W.
I'm at work just getting things done and this text conversation from W asking for all the info on where we were going to live after the move, what school, what daycare, etc. I tried to let her know that wasn't all settled yet. I only got a solid offer on Friday for the job and needed to be sure we weren't going to have a problem first. She sent me this huge text saying she was trying to make the best decision she could and needed all the facts. I tried to explain I was just trying to get the agreement in place before setting plans that I would need to count on and trying to re assure her that she would be part of the process and given all info to help make decisions about schooling as it is fair.
That's where I'm pretty sure I lost her. I got this reply:
"You don't seem to understand what you are asking of me. You come to me wanting my cooperation to basically take our son away from me and everything he knows. You may have been primary care taker for the last year, but I was for the previous 5. I carried him for 9 months, I've jumped at the chance to spend as much time with him as possible through all of this and help you in any way I can. Yes, I have been less than perfect and made some mistakes, but me needing to make a decision like this especially in a time sensitive manner is not simple. I'm trying to work through emotions and still set that aside so I can do what's best. You are thinking about you and S, I am thinking about me and S."
After that she yelled at me on the phone for a bit while I tried to calmly explain the expectation I had for moving forward here. I don't know what else I can do here. I'm so tempted to just file uncontested and try for a custody order. She makes me so crazy...like this is my fault we are where we are.
"I hear you that you're frustrated. I know this is very difficult on all of us."
Validate.
You are right. W wanted to talk later on the phone after S went to bed. I asked her if she wouldn't feel better dropping by at S bedtime so we could talk it over face to face. She jumped at the chance and thanked me for asking. It sounds like I'm making dinner for 3 now.
I will stick to what I already know about the situation and remember to "think about" anything new that comes up before getting back to her. I will look over my validation list again before then.
Thanks Starsky. Sorry by the way for not being a good listener for several months. I know I've really sucked at DB for most of the last year.
Just remember to breathe, Bunches. It helps a lot. She'll probably come at you with more of the spiel you got through text. Don't get me wrong, it's big news and I sympathise with your wife, but she's done this to herself and you are now looking out for you and S in the best way you can. Just keep cool, validate and listen to what she has to say.
So, I'm not quite sure what to make of last night. W came over looking like a mess. She was calm and for the first time in more than a year things seemed very different in her demeanor. She was pleasant and that wall that she puts up just wasn't there. I had held off on the dinner I made until she made it over because I knew she was coming from work and she sat down to eat with me. We spent probably an hour with her just talking about this and that with me chiming in on things. We laughed together a good bit. It was relaxed and pleasant. She brought up a couple of R things from the past...almost reminiscent of our past. She brought up at some point that somethings had changed for her about a month ago and she hadn't been able to sleep most any night since, that she wasn't eating, that she was depressed with her life and doesn't know what she wants anymore or what to do.
I stuck with validating, tried to just mirror how difficult that was and said things like "that must be really hard on you" or "I can't imagine what that's like". The evening was relaxed. Then of course she did want to talk about the reasons we met up. We talked about the move and the papers like business decision. There was no tension or crying in the part of the conversation this time. She did cry some earlier when she brought up R stuff but that was a few moments and then it passed. I don't know what happened for her recently but she seems to have hit bottom. I can't even remember how many times she said "I just feel lost".
Thinking this morning I just need to pull back and give her space. I'll email my lawyer back and keep editing papers to what they need to be and planning the move. It was great to feel like the woman I remember was still in there somewhere but nothing has changed today and I'm feeling pretty much okay with that. Just moving forward I guess.
Very well handled, under trying conditions! Good job!!!
Starsky