Here are the links to my first two threads.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2435361#Post2435361http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2447819#Post2447819As Zee said, I'm due to start a new thread here unfortunately.
The last few days have been a bit chaotic, and it's not going very well. It appears that the A with the OM is running into some issues, and perhaps that is why my W has been an emotional mess. While initially I thought that was great, I'm realizing several things. Namely, do I actually want to be with my W if we were to reconcile. She has brought up a few times how she couldn't imagine cutting off communication etc. I foresee her never moving past where she is at
In addition, I have realized, my W has no intention of coming back regardless of what happens with affair. The last few days seem like she has been swinging up and down wildly, and unfortunately, I have as well. I've tried to not let her affect my moods etc, but I find it hard. I assume it's normal.
At this point, W is waiting for a D to occur. I honestly feel that if I was able to get custody of the kids, I am now prepared to go ahead with a D, so I can get this chapter of my life completed. I purposed this to her, and she wasn't adverse to it at all. My kids are my priority, their safety , their well-being. I know this isn't a forum discussing D, but I think I need to accept that D is a real possibility. Obviously, having their mother in their life is extremely important as well, and access would not be a problem. Anyways, those are just my rumblings on a scary reality.
I'm not sure where to go from here. She has told me she hates herself when she's at the house, hates how she feels about herself when she's around me, and she feels we have been done for years.
I need to regroup and refocus. I want to be the spouse that she would be crazy to leave. Seems hard to do, as she has already left, and she has no fond memories right now. I'm really in a Last LRT.
Anyone have any suggestions?
Thanks for reading
Devaste
Have you spoken to an attorney?
I found that understanding what my future *could* hold helped me be able to focus a little more on what is happening in the present. (Too bad I haven't been enormously effective with it...)
I don't know what you ought to do with your DB-ing, but it will be easier to implement whatever you decide if you feel more confident about the logistics of your life.
Hugs to you. I'm sorry you're here.
I don't know... when she was in the A, she thought she had it all figured out. You waited that out, hoping she would get to the point where it didn't seem so rosy.
Now, she's at the point where the A is failing, she's flailing, she doesn't know what the answer is, but she's sure it isn't you. She's been saying that all along though. So what do you believe? What has changed that has you all worked up?
If you're detached, and GALing, how is she holding you back right now from doing whatever you want to do?
Thanks Maybell and Zew,
Maybell, thanks for the kind words and sage advice. Legal counsel is huge, and yes I have one I have spoken with, and will probably speak with them again next week. Your absolutely right, sometimes the unknown creates more fear, so the more you know about possible outcomes and how your life could and will be affected the better.
Zee, you are very right. I think I've just had a bad couple of days the last few days. The realization that her A is having troubles makes me happy, but also sad as I realize I've done a poor job of detaching.
Your totally right, the plot hasn't changed at all. I think I've realized I need to change and get better at what I'm doing. More internal focus and less external. I've put pressure in myself for this month, which is also not good. Detach and GAL ordered up for this week, with a PMA the whole week. Sounds like a plan.
Back on track.
Dev
Dev;
I've been away for a few days and just getting caught up on your thread.
You shouldn't have reiterated the no R talk while A is ongoing. Like Sandi says, the WAW is not hard of hearing. You already told her that. Just if she brings up your R you just ask is the A over. If she says no then just say, then there's nothing to talk about.
True her A could be crashing & burning. In DB, MWD says affairs generally only last about 6 months. Then there's the withdrawal period. Throughout all of this the WAW will rewrite your history saying there where never any good times. The W will be confused and still trying to lamely keep up the lying habit she's gotten into. Mostly lying to herself, looking for things to prove that her actions were justified. Grasping at straws.
Keep working on yourself.
At some point if she ever says "we never had good times" just point out to her that she's rewriting your history. When I said that to my WAW she suddenly looked up and me like being snapped out of a dream and said incredulously, "yeah, I am". I think that was a light bulb moment for her.
Here's an excerpt from Emotional Intelligence by Daniel Goleman which I found extremely illuminating:
"The emotional mind takes its beliefs to be absolutely true, and so discounts any evidence to the contrary... ... Feelings are self-justifying, with a set of perceptions and 'proofs' all their own."
So you cannot reason with someone who is emotionally bound in and A.
Work on yourself. Let the A take its own course. It will wither.
The Tao Te Ching says in chapter 36:
If you want to shrink something
You must first allow it to expand
If you want to get rid of something
you must first allow it to flourish
This is called the subtle perception
of the way things are
Let your workings remain a mystery
Just show people the results.
(I recommend the Stephen Mitchell translation - quoted above)
Remember this is a marathon. Keep your chin up buddy.
Peter,
Thanks for the words of advice. It's helpful to have someone else's perspective. Sounds like you've got some interesting times coming up in your stich. I'm pulling for you!
The rollercoaster continues and it's great to have this sounding board. I really like the quote from Emotional Intelligence. Very helpful to give perspective, as is the Tao Te Ching excerpt. Telling, true, and counterintuitive. Let it grow to get rid of it. I will be getting copies of both those books for some enlightenment while I am exercising!
No real news. W has fled to visit OM. I'm plugging away with my work, and really focusing on quality time with the kids and trying to get some friend time in. It's a bit hard, but I force myself to do it. I truly have the best relationship with my kids that I have ever had. It's the silver lining of this situation.
As my W needs to move at the end of the month, and I suspect she will move in with a friend, I am wondering if I should establish the separation agreement for the next six months? I am going to discuss with my lawyer. I have realized I need stronger financial boundaries, and I want to protect my family better financially. I would like to sit down with my W and figure out some budgeting. We can't sustain two homes like we have been doing and her moving back here is not an option at this stage of the game.
My goal tomorrow is to have PMA when she picks up my D5 for Tball tomorrow, and not let the fact that I know where she has been bother me at all.
On another note, I followed Theoden's advice on another thread and googled chump lady. Made me smile and laugh out loud. Refreshing.
Back to the marathon,
Dev
As my W needs to move at the end of the month, and I suspect she will move in with a friend, I am wondering if I should establish the separation agreement for the next six months? I am going to discuss with my lawyer. I have realized I need stronger financial boundaries, and I want to protect my family better financially. I would like to sit down with my W and figure out some budgeting. We can't sustain two homes like we have been doing and her moving back here is not an option at this stage of the game.
I think this ^^^^ is wise. Good deal.
Starsky
I need help . My situation is very similar to others on here . I have a WAW i beleive
Hey Dawgy,
I'm sorry to hear about your situation. You've come to a great place for support and information. If you click on New Topic, and detail your situation, I'm sure there are lots of people who will be able to offer advice.
Go to the Newcomers Forum and select New Topic. The more details you provide the better we will be able to help you. Good luck, and I look forward to seeing your sitch and trying to help.
Cheers,
Dev
Thanks Starsky,
I feel it's a good idea. I've got a lot of things that I'm working on. I still wrestle with exposing the affair more than I have in a wider circle. I know it would have a large effect on the secret portion of the affair, which I think would force the issue. My W would also have to make some decisions, as she doesn't want anyone to know about the situation.
Of course, really it's not a good idea, and I need to just let it run it's course. From what I have been able to determine, it's on it's last legs. I assume the temptation is normal? I've felt the temptation and even written about it several times so far in my threads.
Going out tonight. Maintain a PMA and air of mystery when I see my W tonight, and then have a good time. My goal is to stuff my resentment and anger away, and successfully GAL. Did someone tell me to detach more??
Dev
I still wrestle with exposing the affair more than I have in a wider circle. I know it would have a large effect on the secret portion of the affair, which I think would force the issue. My W would also have to make some decisions, as she doesn't want anyone to know about the situation.
Sure you wrestle. Because you still want to think there is something you can do about this situation. You think it would have an effect, but really, you can't know. I outed my W's first affair. It had an effect. It scared OM into hiding. My W was so rebellious, so upset that I took away "what she loved" that she had a one night fling with OM2, then moved on to OM3 a week later. Your W doesn't have to make any decisions. Not now, not ever. You hope she will, but you continue to apply logic to an irrational situation.
You know by now that I'm not trying to bust you. And you know that your W is not my W. I'm just saying that WAW's defy logic, and trying to guess their reaction to anything is a fool's errand. So exposing may or may not work. I don't know how we could know. Don't count on it. It
will make her angry, that's a given. Not saying that's a reason not to do it.
it's not a good idea, and I need to just let it run it's course.
I can't tell you that running it's course is a good strategy either, generally speaking. It could go on forever. If you feel the A is currently foundering, I would let well enough alone. She may pause and re-evaluate you; she may not.
I assume the temptation is normal?
Of course, because we're a controlling lot. We want our waywards back. But if it were that simple...
Going out tonight. Maintain a PMA and air of mystery when I see my W tonight, and then have a good time. My goal is to stuff my resentment and anger away, and successfully GAL. Did someone tell me to detach more??
Best paragraph of your post. Yep, that's the goal right there. Really, in the end, all there is is personal growth. And at some point you realize what you want and need, and your W may or may not be able to provide it. Then there's the hard part of whether you think she ever will.
I like your previous post better. You have to have the logistics of two households conversation.
Hey Zee,
Thanks for the shot to the head. It's well deserved. I find sometimes I need to be re-assured that it's a bad idea. When I stop even contemplating exposing the A is when I know I'll be in a good space, because that A status doesn't actually affect me. I am realizing that I'm not able to influence or control the situation from my end. And of course, I think control is something I was and may still be good at. This self reflection can be tough. Musings of a frustrated LBS, although, I'm starting to not see myself in that light. I prefer now to think of myself as a single father. With very little free time
Yes, agree completely. The financial conversation will be occurring within the week. I meet with the Accountant and the Lawyer next week, and then will go from there. Will be interesting and I need to make sure I allow her to present her concerns as well as myself. Will probably have her go first with a financial plan, and then see if we agree.
And yes, while it is foundering, I think I'm going to just leave well enough alone. Really liked Peter's post about letting something get big enough to destroy itself, really resonates with me. My main dilemma is my children, which is why I proposed sole custody for myself, so she could have all the time she needed, and I can see my kids daily. Of course I would like to think she will want access as well, and I would have no problems with that. I think a mediator will be useful for the next six months.
Just leaving the gym, off to go out. Thanks for the feedback as always.
Cheers
Dev
Toujours là pour vous, Dévasté.
Let's just agree not to become co-dependent
Haha, better re-read that book now 😬
Just wanted to say Happy Fathers Day to all the other fathers on here that are celebrating today! Hope everyone has a great day with their kids if they are able, and gets a chance to realize what is truly important, being the best father you can be!
Happy Fathers Day!
I'm in a similar situation. My wife is in an affair and says she needs time before she ends it. I've read the DR book and am starting to put it to use. One of the problems is that I started therapy last week (only 2 weeks since BD) and my therapist told me to tell her that I can't compete with OM. That conversation went okay, but now my therapist said to remind her of that again this week and to tell her that I may call OM. That did not go over well (setback). I think I need to continue practicing the DR techniques and stop taking my therapists advice. Maybe I should tell my therapist my goals and ask the therapist to concentrate on me and not on my R.
but now my therapist said to remind her of that again this week and to tell her that I may call OM.
Time for a new therapist; that's all HORRIBLE advice!
a) WHATEVER you do, be it legal action, exposure, financial moves or even just GAL stuff, you just DO it. You don't TALK about doing it, and you certainly don't TELEGRAPH doing it!
b) Repeating hard boundaries (like "I will not compete with OM") only WEAKENS them, not STRENGTHENS them. Once you've stated your boundary, live it out, including any stated consequences.
This therapist doesn't sound like they've much in tune with DB/DR principles.
Starsky
Starsky,
Thanks for affirming my instincts about the advice. Of course that was in retrospect, so it caused a setback. Time to refocus and move forward.
Mattben,
I agree with everything ^^^^^^^^^^^^
Never should you be telling your WAW that you will be contacting the OM. Bad idea, and prevents you from moving forward.
Your on the right track with getting a new therapist, and listen to Starsky, he knows what he's talking about
Devaste
So time for an update.
Father's Day was interesting. Wife came over, had made pictures in frames, wrote a very nice card that actually upset me inside, and we had brunch. Then she left. I went out for dinner with my family. Her card to me spoke about how much of a great father I am, and how the kids are lucky to have me. Very different from what she said at BD.
I've been focused on myself, and I've been trying to detach and not worry about what she is doing. Earlier in the week, she had the kids herself, and took them to a memorial, and she texted me several times to tell me how horrible it was, and how her day was "fu$&@ing hell". I'm not sure what to do, so I just responded with that must be very difficult to feel like that, and tried to listen to what she was saying. Not sure if that's the right response?
My W has also been having all kinds of issues with her parents, which are affecting her interactions with me. She told me yesterday again that she is this close to killing herself, and she has no support and nothing to look forward to in her life. I have to resist the urge to rescue her, which I used to do, and just validate how she is feeling I.e. You must be feeling overwhelmed?
She also reiterated she wished she never had kids, they have destroyed her body, soul, mind etc. I find this incredibly difficult to hear, and the thought of my kids hearing this makes me sick to my stomach. I just listened.
Today at the FT, she said she is scared of losing my friendship and support, and then when she went on a thought train, said she doesn't actually think we are good friends at all. Not sure if this is her thoughts becuase of the OM, or her own thoughts. But it doesn't matter because it's how she feels. I feel differently obviously, but that is put away for now. She also said she doesn't think we bring out the best in each other. Not sure if this is standard script, or the truth. I've been thinking about it, and I have lots of positives, but I definitely have room to change. That's one of her barriers to R.
We met at the bank today and are going to draft up the legal seperation agreement with parameters for finance and custody etc. Next week.
She is desperate to go away this Friday to visit OM and avoid her parents who are coming into town. My S8 has a baseball tournament, and it will be tough, but I've left it up to her. She's an adult and can decide to so what she wishes. I need to be happy with the choices I make.
The battle continues
Devaste
I'm sorry this is how your life is for right now. You are a great dad and your kids are lucky to have you. I wish you luck with the separation and everything. Keep us posted.
Thanks Maybell,
I appreciate your kind words. I look at this as a necessary step. Distance and further space may be a very good thing. I always try to see the positives. Of course I have much sadness, but I try not to show it.
I can tell how confused, scared and fearful my W is at this time. The last thing she needs is any pressure from me. This step just helps ensure that. It may well help in the long run.
Thanks Maybell
Dev
I forgot one thing from my post.
While reflecting, I have realized that one of our issues was conflict avoidance, and we rarely made decisions that had conflict, and my wife would often give in, and resent me, and she would feel like she had no voice. Very valid to feel like that given the dynamics.
Obviously that is an unhealthy way to attack problems. And killer for a M. My W needs to have a voice.
I want to do a 180 on this now, and I am trying to figure out how to approach this, as our interaction is somewhat limited. I think resolving and negotiating any conflicts that do arise in a quick and fair manner for both of us would be ideal. I want to be strong and decisive, but not controlling. Giving her a voice I think comes down to attentive listening on my part, and not interrupting or arguing her points
I have really realized that I cannot argue with her, that you cannot argue a feeling, and my work has to be all action based. Any suggestions with respect to conflict resolution 180s would be appreciated.
Thanks
Dev
She said she doesn't actually think we are good friends at all. Not sure if this is her thoughts because of the OM, or her own thoughts. But it doesn't matter because it's how she feels. I feel differently obviously, but that is put away for now. She also said she doesn't think we bring out the best in each other.
2x4 time: give your head a shake. You CANNOT believe a word she says. She's rewriting history as all WAWs do. She's saying things to justify her actions and emotions. Don't believe a word of it.
As for listening better, try reflective conversation techniques.
http://www.loveatfirstfight.com/instant-connection/It's a better way to communicate so that you give her a voice and validate her side of the equation.
PeterV2 is spot on. Do not believe the crap coming out of her mouth. My W was all over the map when we were separated. I would have given up the fight if not for people on this board telling me those very same words.
Peter,
Thanks for the 2x4, as well as the link. I like it, and I will start to implement it. So critical. And the reminder to not believe what she is saying as well is great. Of course I'm referring to her emotional justifications right now. I realize what she is saying right now she does believe at this moment of course.
Indigo,
Thanks for chiming in. So nice to hear from someone that has been through it. Your right, you need to stay the battle, and be consistent. And not believe what she is saying at this time.
Enjoy your Sundays. Happy DB
Dev
Okay, I just received this email from my W. I am not sure really how to respond, and I'd love Sandi or MrBond or anybody's interpretation, if I should interpret anythjng other than my W is getting an understanding for what has caused some of our issues
Here's the email:
I know this may seem strange for me to write you like this at this time.
I feel like the last several months in particular have been a blur although in many ways so have the last several years.
You are an incredible person. You are passionate, loyal, trustworthy, committed, kind, and generous. You are an amazing father. And when I say the kids are lucky to have you as their dad, I mean it with my whole heart. I regret not being able to let you share more in their early months & years. That was a mothering philosophy of mine but also a deep unmet need of mine: I had felt so much excruciating pain not being able to count on my parents in my most vulnerable moments that I could not bear to let my own babies feel despair.
Whenever I find myself referring to you, it is with pride I have called you my husband. It took months to get used to calling you "my husband" so I imagine it will take months to not refer to you as such. I will always treasure having shared my most intimate moments with you.
I often wonder "what I am doing" and "why" am I doing it? As I'm sure you among others do as well.
It makes little sense on the outskirts. And it's not fair to you. I see that. And I am deeply sorry.
I am sorry for the unending bitterness in our relationship. The resentment that built over years. I feel like I lost myself in motherhood and wifehood. But I never had much of a "self" prior to marriage. I think I had been on a journey to finding myself around that time but any progress that I'd made was eaten up a little more after each pregnancy to the point of nearly being unrecoverable.
I think we have both really gotten to know ourselves and each other a little more throughout the last few months particularly in our sessions with IC
Now that we are both almost at a place of understanding how we got here, it does seem tragic to not "make it work." I say almost because I believe we are still learning about ourselves and each other during each session. And I believe there is merit in that as individuals and as co-parents and hopefully as friends.
I am terrified of losing you. But I feel that we are trapped in a cycle of our most wicked traits always hovering. And I am mostly referring to the feelings and behaviours of mine that I battle. Although I have wondered lately if the perfection you've felt you had to live up to with your family has been projected onto me. A me that does not have the foundation or skills to cope with such high expectations. Tragically, the feelings I battle most appear before I see you, when I'm with you, or after I've left your company. They are suffocation, anxiety, depression, despair and they lead me spiralling towards only one option. I can't say it's just the kids, or the house, or you, or life, and how we've structured it. But as scared as I am of losing you, I am more terrified of the suicidal thoughts I have. They are at times relentless.
I am not telling you that for any reason other than it is real and it is powerful and it is unbearable to live with such harmful and intrusive thoughts. And I'm sorry they've become associated with you. I know I've had them before in my life and before I knew you so even though this association is powerful now it is something I feel inside of me that I will be battling for my entire life. It is an illness. A silent illness. And probably why I so often wish for another disease. A disease that evokes compassion and sympathy. A disease where people would want to help care for you and your family. Without judgment. Where people would forgive you for not feeling up to attending an event or where they would make you a meal and take your kids out to ease the load. But mental illness does not afford that patience. And it is draining for people to try to understand it. So I will say that my anxiety, depression, irritability, and feelings of being overwhelmed are symptoms I've lived with for decades but they are now also symptoms of my marriage and my kids and my lifestyle and these symptoms need to be managed like any other illness. I will never be able to live up to your family's expectations. It has also led to my feeling of depletion and inadequacy. I know this is also not fair to you. I realize that they may seem like giving up but I see it as exercising control over one small part of my life that I have control over.
I am sorry that I can't commit to "making it work". I don't like the thought of you being with other women any more than you do. Especially ones who aren't damaged goods like me. But that also builds resentment and the mantra "it's not fair" I know you want to be with me despite my war wounds but I loathe my body. I am no longer proud of what it accomplished. And that is not fair to you either. Some part of me will hold onto the anger that my body was destroyed in the making and birthing and nursing of three big children. Your body underwent transformations only for the better. And that is not fair.
I've also come to another epiphany in the last little while. And that is since I loathe myself so much in your presence I loathe you for having loved that person. Even if it's not those qualities that you love. Obviously! But you accepting those parts of me hasn't made me overcome them, rather they surface more frequently. This might be a topic for our next session with FT
Anyhow, I am sorry for how this happened and how I've handled so much of it. You deserve so much better. And you will find it. I have no doubt. And maybe one day that person will even come to see that despite the unforgivable nature of what I've done, she is lucky to be with the person & partner it helped you become.
xoxo
WAW
Any thoughts from anyone?
Thanks,
Dev
Sent from my iPhone
Wow, Devaste.
I need to digest this.
Don't know if it provides insight into her frame of mind, if it is meant to elicit some sort of reaction from you, (probably yes, or she wouldn't have bothered to write it),
is she trying to play the victim, thereby letting herself off the hook? She is saying so many wonderful things about you... Then why is she a WAW?
"I resent you for loving me because I don't love myself enough..."
Sounds like a 70's movie theme.
It's beyond me.
But I can say that a woman's got to have a lot going on to leave a man who she describes as darn near perfect.
I'd take it with a BLOCK of salt, of course.
But I'm curious to know what YOU make of this?
Do you sense she's sincere or just playing?
I guess what she does from here out will tell the tale.
I'm curious to see what others say.
----GG
Thanks for your insight GG,
I agree it's a tough one.
Here's my thoughts:
I think it's sincere, she's not playing. The thoughts she's had of anxiety, despair and suffocation are real feelings. I've mentioned her suicidal thoughts in my stitch before. They are all very real.
My challenge is what I do, that contributes to that, and trying to change that, if it is possible.
I think she wants to be friends, and I know she is scared of losing me, but she's more scared of losing herself. I've told her we will not be friends if there is an OM involved in this D and there is no commitment to work or try to repair out M.
Bottom line, she doesn't feel good about herself around her family and me. I need to try and adjust my behavior to limit that, but at the same time, she needs a lot of space to figure out herself.
I'm a tad overwhelmed by the letter right now. I need more time to digest.
Thanks GG, and I look forward to more responses.
Dev
I'm more concerned from the suicidal aspect than from the WAW side.
Sounds like she's letting you completely off the hook, and saying she's not worthy of anyone or anything. And she hates you for loving someone so unworthy of you.
Isn't that part of the suicidal drama? Are you convinced she isn't in danger? Hate to analyze this as WAW-speak without taking the self destructive side into account first.
Zee,
I am concerned with those thoughts. Her suicide talk has occurred throughout the stitch. And much earlier in our R, and she did significant CBT and work to try and minimize and control those thoughts. As she noted, it goes back to when she was held up by a shotgun as a teenager, and was abandoned by the system. Her father has tried to commit once. Mental health is very serious in her family.
I am concerned about her comments. They are sincere. I think she is trying to let me low how she feels. She has said I deserve better on several occasions, which I usually would try to argue. Haven't done for the last while, as I realize that I can't argue how she feels.
I'm going to talk to her and she if she is willing to talk to her Doctor . I need this to be in a safe, comfortable environment for her. The part of me that rescued her for years cringes to not immediately jump in, but I think she needs to figure this out on her own, with peripheral support.
So confusing for me. All those nice things, and then she still wants to leave because she feels she has no choice.
Thanks for your comments Zee
Dev
I am thinking you should go ahead and give her Doc this letter. Given her history and the multiple suicide references, it's worrisome.
Devaste;
I believe she is being honest here. She has obviously put a lot of thought and self-reflection into this email.
She is very confused and doesn't know how to help herself.
She should find herself a good psychiatrist to diagnose and treat her mental illness. You could even offer to help by saying you just want your children's mother to be happy and healthy, mentally and emotionally.
This email is a cry for help. I don't think she knows where to turn. She's grasping at straws for solutions, but she needs psychotherapy to help her through this. But not just any old shrink. She needs someone particularly skilled to handle these types of problems. I would try to find her a good psychiatrist, maybe even using the email to get a feel for what sort of therapeutic approach potential psychiatrists would use.
Ideations of suicide are not uncommon in depression. She may even have PTSD from that earlier incident with the shotgun.
I think this email is an indication that she has actually done some soul searching. She's not spewing here. I'm somewhat amazed at the lucidity of her self-analysis. However, she is at a loss for solutions. That's where a therapist can help. I would even suggest a SBT just to get her some fast relief.
My WAW also has depression and complex PTSD and our MC is also her therapist so she working on that. I know it's not easy to live with that. My W has also had ideations of suicide. We've been dealing with this for a while now and it does take time. I didn't see a lot of results from CBT. She did respond well to other therapies, but still is in a funk.
I know it's hard not to want to jump in and rescue, but I don't see anything wrong with offering some guidance and showing concern.
Thanks Peter,
I agree she needs help. It is fairly lucid. Can only imagine that reflective conversation, "so your saying when your around me you feel anxiety, despair, and want to kill yourself?" Maybe I won't start the technique with that conversation
I do take her seriously, and I suspect that she has thought out a lot. It almost feels like a good bye letter. In addition to getting her help, I realize she obviously doesn't feel that way with the OM, which is probably why she wrote this on the way to see him. Actually, very irrelevant. Disregard that, when or where it was written is irrelevant.
I'm looking into the SBT and other help. Also not really sure what I can change to minimize her feeling those ways. I've been trying all sorts of different things.
Thanks Peter
Dev
So I've been thinking a lot about her email that I posted a few posts back. I will be seeing her tonight. I responded to her by telling her that I would like to respond and discuss it when I was feeling a bit less emotional, and I appreciated her being so open, honest and sincere.
I'm still looking for any more advice, it's always welcome
. Starsky, Wonka?, 25yearsmlc? I welcome and value everyone's advice, so insightful to have others not directly involved give feedback!
The email to me shows me how much my W needs to work on herself before we begin to work on a R of any kind. Of course I need to continue my reflective listening, improving my conflict resolution skills, and on being more direct with my communication and less controlling. Super easy! Right?
I'm impressed by her understanding of how we got here. However, in no place is her A mentioned. Obviously, this remains a pretty big issue. Her explanations do not justify an A in my eyes, but her explanations do show an understanding of what has happened.
I need to formulate a plan for some thoughts when I see her to acknowledge the email and appreciate what she wrote, and still keep my detachment.
Ideas?
Thanks as always everyone
Dev
Hiya, Dev! You called me?
Okay...let's dissect your W's letter to try to see it from her POV.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I know this may seem strange for me to write you like this at this time.
I feel like the last several months in particular have been a blur although in many ways so have the last several years.
This suggests she's in a survival mode and barely treading water. That is her perception..right or wrong. It is just how she sees things right now.
You are an incredible person. You are passionate, loyal, trustworthy, committed, kind, and generous. You are an amazing father. And when I say the kids are lucky to have you as their dad, I mean it with my whole heart. I regret not being able to let you share more in their early months & years. That was a mothering philosophy of mine but also a deep unmet need of mine: I had felt so much excruciating pain not being able to count on my parents in my most vulnerable moments that I could not bear to let my own babies feel despair.
It is positive and encouraging to hear W say that she thinks you are a wonderful father. What a gift! From this, it is apparent that W is allowing her FOO issues to spill over into her parenting realm.
This is where you perhaps you can ask open ended questions such as "First of all, I want to say here that I think you are a great mother to our kids. I appreciate you sharing how you felt about your parents and your upbringing in regard to rearing the children. How did that make you feel? Could you please explain this more fully so I can understand you better?" Then step back and listen. Perhaps you can ask if she felt that you did not back her up enough as a mother when it comes to parenting your children. Ask her for specifics on some of the ways you can be more supportive to W in that area.
Whenever I find myself referring to you, it is with pride I have called you my husband. It took months to get used to calling you "my husband" so I imagine it will take months to not refer to you as such. I will always treasure having shared my most intimate moments with you.
She's hearing two voices. One voice says, "Hey Dev is a great husband and father! What are you thinking here??!" and there's the other one that says, "Oh boy...my scorecard is looong and resentments are quite high. I just cannot go back to that dark place again." I think her main focus right now is to feel whole again and not struggle with her 'mental illness' as she says here.
I often wonder "what I am doing" and "why" am I doing it? As I'm sure you among others do as well.
It makes little sense on the outskirts. And it's not fair to you. I see that. And I am deeply sorry.
I am sorry for the unending bitterness in our relationship. The resentment that built over years. I feel like I lost myself in motherhood and wifehood. But I never had much of a "self" prior to marriage. I think I had been on a journey to finding myself around that time but any progress that I'd made was eaten up a little more after each pregnancy to the point of nearly being unrecoverable.
I think it is CRITICALLY important that W feels heard that she needs to discover herself as "Victoria" not as Dev's wife or the mother. Just say, "I can imagine how overwhelming managing a household, parenting our children, cooking, trying to be a good wife. It can feel quite too much, ins't it? I am glad to see that you are trying to step back a bit and re-discovering yourself as "Victoria" and I am all for that personal growth.
I think we have both really gotten to know ourselves and each other a little more throughout the last few months particularly in our sessions with IC
Hey! Dev...this is BIG. In what ways did she mean by this? It seems that during IC sessions that W feels 'safe' enough to open up and share her thoughts with you while in there. Could you please elaborate on this a bit more?
Now that we are both almost at a place of understanding how we got here, it does seem tragic to not "make it work." I say almost because I believe we are still learning about ourselves and each other during each session. And I believe there is merit in that as individuals and as co-parents and hopefully as friends.
It is 'tragic' to W because she CANNOT see or is UNABLE TO see a way or a different way of approaching this M. I am wondering if your IC has any experience in MC or is SBT based on Gottman principles?
I am terrified of losing you.
Yep. Most WAS face this when the real possibility is right in their faces. They don't want to lose their best friends and do miss the essence of the LBS. That is the key right there.
But I feel that we are trapped in a cycle of our most wicked traits always hovering.
Perhaps this would be good to ask W what she meant by this. You don't want to assume here.
And I am mostly referring to the feelings and behaviours of mine that I battle. Although I have wondered lately if the perfection you've felt you had to live up to with your family has been projected onto me.
Whaddya mean here, W!? Do you have a sense of what W is alluding to here, Dev? Do you actually feel this way? Why does she feel or think that it has been projected onto her? I am thinking she's most probably thinking that she HAS TO take this on thus the struggle. That is where I think she may be not entirely correct. It is those silly and pesky assumptions again on her part as well!
A me that does not have the foundation or skills to cope with such high expectations.
What expectations? What are they exactly? Did someone or people communicate them to her? Where did she "learn" this? Is it really you? Your family? Or more to do with her own FOO issues?
Tragically, the feelings I battle most appear before I see you, when I'm with you, or after I've left your company. They are suffocation, anxiety, depression, despair and they lead me spiralling towards only one option.
All of this is all on W. There's nothing you can do to fix this until W seeks help. In one breath, she praises you as a great father and husband....then in the next one she feels "suffocation, anxiety, depression, despair." Heh? Which is which! It is all internalized and you have absolutely nothing to do with this at all.
I can't say it's just the kids, or the house, or you, or life, and how we've structured it. But as scared as I am of losing you, I am more terrified of the suicidal thoughts I have. They are at times relentless.
From this, it is apparent that W is looking at life in a negative vein and world with half-glass approach. She needs to work on changing her own inner thoughts. I'd suggest that you Google the "top 10 books on happiness" and perhaps use that as a springboard in your next IC sessions with W. You can show that you're concerned about W's suicidal thoughts, but not to enable her in continuing those negative thoughts/behaviors.
I am not telling you that for any reason other than it is real and it is powerful and it is unbearable to live with such harmful and intrusive thoughts. And I'm sorry they've become associated with you. I know I've had them before in my life and before I knew you so even though this association is powerful now it is something I feel inside of me that I will be battling for my entire life.
Focus on the quote---"I know I've had them before in my life and before I knew you..." It is abundantly clear that depression or whatever is an ongoing struggle that has absolutely nothing to do with you or the M. It is her coping skills that are the real crux of the problem. She definitely needs to learn better coping skills and what "happiness" means to her.
It is an illness. A silent illness. And probably why I so often wish for another disease. A disease that evokes compassion and sympathy. A disease where people would want to help care for you and your family. Without judgment. Where people would forgive you for not feeling up to attending an event or where they would make you a meal and take your kids out to ease the load. But mental illness does not afford that patience. And it is draining for people to try to understand it.
The one thing that jumps out at me the most about ^^ is that W is most likely feeling judged by others as a mother, sister, wife and feeling that she's not measured up as well as she'd like. Wow. That's a huge burden to carry. She's gotta learn not to care about what others think of her or care how she measures up to others. She's making the best out of her life and that's good enough. It is her negative thoughts that are causing her to walk down a downward spiral.
To be clear, I am no expert on mental illness nor do we know what type W has to date since I have not seen you post any official one from her doctor. So I'd want to be upfront right here.
So I will say that my anxiety, depression, irritability, and feelings of being overwhelmed are symptoms I've lived with for decades but they are now also symptoms of my marriage and my kids and my lifestyle and these symptoms need to be managed like any other illness. I will never be able to live up to your family's expectations.
Again, with that "expectations." Why did she FEEL the need to do so? Where did she get that idea from?? Was your mother critical to her on her mothering skills? There's something going on right there that W feels very acutely and needs to work through those faulty assumptions with the assistance of a qualified professional.
You cannot do this as her H nor can any one in the family do this. It is for W to work through her own IC.
It has also led to my feeling of depletion and inadequacy. I know this is also not fair to you. I realize that they may seem like giving up but I see it as exercising control over one small part of my life that I have control over.
That must be rough to hear, Dev! On the other hand, it may be good for her to step away and reclaim herself as "Victoria" instead of Wife & Mother. How can you support her in that area? Perhaps you can offer to watch the kids while she goes off to, say, pottery classes? Find solutions together.
I am sorry that I can't commit to "making it work". I don't like the thought of you being with other women any more than you do. Especially ones who aren't damaged goods like me. But that also builds resentment and the mantra "it's not fair" I know you want to be with me despite my war wounds but I loathe my body. I am no longer proud of what it accomplished. And that is not fair to you either. Some part of me will hold onto the anger that my body was destroyed in the making and birthing and nursing of three big children. Your body underwent transformations only for the better. And that is not fair.
That will take a while to dismantle with the help of a qualified professional. I would imagine she's done this "internal dialogue" of self-hatred over a period of years. I am wondering how old your wife is now? Sometimes when women age...they are confronted with the loss of their youth, their beauty, their vitality...etc. So it can be a sobering experience for women in general.
I've also come to another epiphany in the last little while. And that is since I loathe myself so much in your presence I loathe you for having loved that person. Even if it's not those qualities that you love. Obviously! But you accepting those parts of me hasn't made me overcome them, rather they surface more frequently. This might be a topic for our next session with FT
Applaud W for this epiphany. It makes me wonder if she's fearful of accepting unconditional love from you as she may not have received it from her parents; therefore, she may feel that she does not deserve or learned to accept unconditional love from you. Hmmmmmmmm......
Anyhow, I am sorry for how this happened and how I've handled so much of it. You deserve so much better. And you will find it. I have no doubt. And maybe one day that person will even come to see that despite the unforgivable nature of what I've done, she is lucky to be with the person & partner it helped you become.
Tell her that it must hurt to struggle so much and you hope for her to find happiness. She's wanting to reject you FIRST before you reject her. She cannot handle rejection...nor does it very well at all. So she would rather make this first move and fast! I think it has been the running thread in her life based on what she wrote about her FOO issues here.
xoxo
WAW
Dev,
What are your thoughts and perspective on this ^^? We look forward to hearing back from you.
Wonka,
Thanks for answering the call bell! Wow. Great analysis. I've got lots to comment on and fill in some holes. Really appreciate the response and I've gotta wrap up a few patients here but hope to be able to post in the next few hours. This job things tends to cramp my response time
Cheers and thanks again,
Dev
Wow. Wonka.
Where do I get that some of that candy?
Awesome réponse.
(And... auto-correct made me speak French. How cool is that?)
Where do I get that some of that candy?
Smarties.
Merci.
SMARTIES!!!!!!!
Wonka,
I am indebted for your responses. They are spot on, dead on, and provide some great advice, and a bit of insight as well. Much appreciated
I replied in Green under your bolded remarks and questions
Better go get some smarties
And thanks to everyone who is providing feedback and advice, I couldn't do it without you all!
Hiya, Dev! You called me?
Okay...let's dissect your W's letter to try to see it from her POV.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I know this may seem strange for me to write you like this at this time.
I feel like the last several months in particular have been a blur although in many ways so have the last several years.
This suggests she's in a survival mode and barely treading water. That is her perception..right or wrong. It is just how she sees things right now.
Great observation and completely true
You are an incredible person. You are passionate, loyal, trustworthy, committed, kind, and generous. You are an amazing father. And when I say the kids are lucky to have you as their dad, I mean it with my whole heart. I regret not being able to let you share more in their early months & years. That was a mothering philosophy of mine but also a deep unmet need of mine: I had felt so much excruciating pain not being able to count on my parents in my most vulnerable moments that I could not bear to let my own babies feel despair.
It is positive and encouraging to hear W say that she thinks you are a wonderful father. What a gift! From this, it is apparent that W is allowing her FOO issues to spill over into her parenting realm.
This is where you perhaps you can ask open ended questions such as "First of all, I want to say here that I think you are a great mother to our kids. I appreciate you sharing how you felt about your parents and your upbringing in regard to rearing the children. How did that make you feel? Could you please explain this more fully so I can understand you better?" Then step back and listen. Perhaps you can ask if she felt that you did not back her up enough as a mother when it comes to parenting your children. Ask her for specifics on some of the ways you can be more supportive to W in that area.
It was very nice to hear her say these things, although it contradicts with what she said before. I like the suggestions on getting more info from her. Reflecting back, she did feel like she had no backing from me with respect to how we parented and the type of mother she was. I did a poor job of showing her that our beliefs were aligned, and I need to improve that moving forward.
Whenever I find myself referring to you, it is with pride I have called you my husband. It took months to get used to calling you "my husband" so I imagine it will take months to not refer to you as such. I will always treasure having shared my most intimate moments with you.
She's hearing two voices. One voice says, "Hey Dev is a great husband and father! What are you thinking here??!" and there's the other one that says, "Oh boy...my scorecard is looong and resentments are quite high. I just cannot go back to that dark place again." I think her main focus right now is to feel whole again and not struggle with her 'mental illness' as she says here.
I often wonder "what I am doing" and "why" am I doing it? As I'm sure you among others do as well.
It makes little sense on the outskirts. And it's not fair to you. I see that. And I am deeply sorry.
I am sorry for the unending bitterness in our relationship. The resentment that built over years. I feel like I lost myself in motherhood and wifehood. But I never had much of a "self" prior to marriage. I think I had been on a journey to finding myself around that time but any progress that I'd made was eaten up a little more after each pregnancy to the point of nearly being unrecoverable.
I think it is CRITICALLY important that W feels heard that she needs to discover herself as "Victoria" not as Dev's wife or the mother. Just say, "I can imagine how overwhelming managing a household, parenting our children, cooking, trying to be a good wife. It can feel quite too much, ins't it? I am glad to see that you are trying to step back a bit and re-discovering yourself as "Victoria" and I am all for that personal growth.
I have been very supportive of this, and unfortunately the OM involvement has created a bit of an issue, as I felt that she wasn't discovering herself this way. Of course, I realize this is unfair of me, and it doesn't really matter, even though it hurts incredibly
I think we have both really gotten to know ourselves and each other a little more throughout the last few months particularly in our sessions with IC
Hey! Dev...this is BIG. In what ways did she mean by this? It seems that during IC sessions that W feels 'safe' enough to open up and share her thoughts with you while in there. Could you please elaborate on this a bit more?
When we have been in FT or IC, W has felt like she has a voice, which has allowed her to alleviate some of her anxiety and actually feel like she is being listened to. In addition, I have realized how I was attempting to control my M to minimize my hurt and pain, and my W has realized she has a lot of blame and resentment. The pattern has been for me to be blamed for most things. Right now, W does not feel safe to talk outside of FT or IC, because she feels I always win. I am trying to work on reflective listening to help alleviate this trend
Now that we are both almost at a place of understanding how we got here, it does seem tragic to not "make it work." I say almost because I believe we are still learning about ourselves and each other during each session. And I believe there is merit in that as individuals and as co-parents and hopefully as friends.
It is 'tragic' to W because she CANNOT see or is UNABLE TO see a way or a different way of approaching this M. I am wondering if your IC has any experience in MC or is SBT based on Gottman principles?
The IC does have experience, but I don't think she is applying SBT based on Gottman principles. I am discussing this with her tonight.
I am terrified of losing you.
Yep. Most WAS face this when the real possibility is right in their faces. They don't want to lose their best friends and do miss the essence of the LBS. That is the key right there.
But I feel that we are trapped in a cycle of our most wicked traits always hovering.
Perhaps this would be good to ask W what she meant by this. You don't want to assume here.
I will definitely. I do have assumptions, but hearing from her would be great. I believe she has articulated to me already that she feels the safest and most comfortable with me, which allows her to be herself, whom she despises. Does that make sense? All her worst traits she is comfortable exploring with me, and I have made many mistakes not listening to her and not allowing her to have a voice in our R.
And I am mostly referring to the feelings and behaviours of mine that I battle. Although I have wondered lately if the perfection you've felt you had to live up to with your family has been projected onto me.
Whaddya mean here, W!? Do you have a sense of what W is alluding to here, Dev? Do you actually feel this way? Why does she feel or think that it has been projected onto her? I am thinking she's most probably thinking that she HAS TO take this on thus the struggle. That is where I think she may be not entirely correct. It is those silly and pesky assumptions again on her part as well!
I come from a family that is very loving and supportive. This is very foreign to my W, and over the 18 years we have been together, she has always struggled feeling that my family saw her as inferior or judged her. The truth is that she has taken this perfect family role on. I am the oldest son, oldest grandson on a European origin family, that can have a lot of stressful origins. I have strived all my life to achieve and meet these expectations. Familial obligations, dinners, birthdays, are frequent, but have become less so as everyone's family has grown. I have come to terms with not worrying about what other people think some time ago, and we used to discuss this frequently. My wife has always felt she is not good enough for me, or that my family perceives her as such. That is not the truth, but it is definitely how she feels, and there is no arguing a feeling
A me that does not have the foundation or skills to cope with such high expectations.
What expectations? What are they exactly? Did someone or people communicate them to her? Where did she "learn" this? Is it really you? Your family? Or more to do with her own FOO issues?
As I stated above, no one has communicated any expectations to her. I would dangerously assume they are to be a good mother and a good wife, but I would rather find out what she feels they are. A lot of FOO issues as well, but that has more to do with coping skills. I think it's further down, but this is another area that is severely lacking.
Tragically, the feelings I battle most appear before I see you, when I'm with you, or after I've left your company. They are suffocation, anxiety, depression, despair and they lead me spiralling towards only one option.
All of this is all on W. There's nothing you can do to fix this until W seeks help. In one breath, she praises you as a great father and husband....then in the next one she feels "suffocation, anxiety, depression, despair." Heh? Which is which! It is all internalized and you have absolutely nothing to do with this at all.
I have been very concerned about this, because I'm not sure what I should do to change this, or what I can do. I assumed a lot of this was out of my control, but I don't want to miss anything
I can't say it's just the kids, or the house, or you, or life, and how we've structured it. But as scared as I am of losing you, I am more terrified of the suicidal thoughts I have. They are at times relentless.
From this, it is apparent that W is looking at life in a negative vein and world with half-glass approach. She needs to work on changing her own inner thoughts. I'd suggest that you Google the "top 10 books on happiness" and perhaps use that as a springboard in your next IC sessions with W. You can show that you're concerned about W's suicidal thoughts, but not to enable her in continuing those negative thoughts/behaviors.
Will do. I'm very concerned about this as well. I've always been the optimist in our relationship, well she's been the pessimist. Maybe I should try to 180 this, which will be a struggle as I don't like to look at life that way.
I am not telling you that for any reason other than it is real and it is powerful and it is unbearable to live with such harmful and intrusive thoughts. And I'm sorry they've become associated with you. I know I've had them before in my life and before I knew you so even though this association is powerful now it is something I feel inside of me that I will be battling for my entire life.
Focus on the quote---"I know I've had them before in my life and before I knew you..." It is abundantly clear that depression or whatever is an ongoing struggle that has absolutely nothing to do with you or the M. It is her coping skills that are the real crux of the problem. She definitely needs to learn better coping skills and what "happiness" means to her.
Agree wholeheartedly, sadly coping skills are something we often discussed but never worked on developing. I've always been able to count on family support, as has she, but she has always felt like the kids are the focus of the support as opposed to her. Her own definition of happiness is key as well.
It is an illness. A silent illness. And probably why I so often wish for another disease. A disease that evokes compassion and sympathy. A disease where people would want to help care for you and your family. Without judgment. Where people would forgive you for not feeling up to attending an event or where they would make you a meal and take your kids out to ease the load. But mental illness does not afford that patience. And it is draining for people to try to understand it.
The one thing that jumps out at me the most about ^^ is that W is most likely feeling judged by others as a mother, sister, wife and feeling that she's not measured up as well as she'd like. Wow. That's a huge burden to carry. She's gotta learn not to care about what others think of her or care how she measures up to others. She's making the best out of her life and that's good enough. It is her negative thoughts that are causing her to walk down a downward spiral.
To be clear, I am no expert on mental illness nor do we know what type W has to date since I have not seen you post any official one from her doctor. So I'd want to be upfront right here.
This is where I was talking about the importance of what other people think of her. It's paramount in her thoughts and actions, even in the current situation.
So I will say that my anxiety, depression, irritability, and feelings of being overwhelmed are symptoms I've lived with for decades but they are now also symptoms of my marriage and my kids and my lifestyle and these symptoms need to be managed like any other illness. I will never be able to live up to your family's expectations.
Again, with that "expectations." Why did she FEEL the need to do so? Where did she get that idea from?? Was your mother critical to her on her mothering skills? There's something going on right there that W feels very acutely and needs to work through those faulty assumptions with the assistance of a qualified professional.
You cannot do this as her H nor can any one in the family do this. It is for W to work through her own IC.
My W always felt that my mother was critical of her parenting, and she always felt like I didn't support her in our dealing with my mom. I was supportive, unfortunately usually not in front of my W. I should have been more vocally supportive in front of both my mom and my W, and I can understand how she feels let down by me. I am not sure of what expectations she is speaking though, I will ask her for clarification.
It has also led to my feeling of depletion and inadequacy. I know this is also not fair to you. I realize that they may seem like giving up but I see it as exercising control over one small part of my life that I have control over.
That must be rough to hear, Dev! On the other hand, it may be good for her to step away and reclaim herself as "Victoria" instead of Wife & Mother. How can you support her in that area? Perhaps you can offer to watch the kids while she goes off to, say, pottery classes? Find solutions together.
Yes, this whole email was very rough to see and read . It's very important for her to reclaim her self and I get that. The loss of her identity is a huge factor in this. I tried to help give her more space just before the onset of the A, but I assume it was too little to late. My W was attending yoga classes, Zumba, and reconnecting in her work world. I watch the kids now, as they are with me almost all the time, but we are S, and most time when she is away from them, she chooses to go see OM. It would be much easier to give her time if I didn't feel like she was running to the OM all the time, but I guess really that doesn't matter. She can do whatever she needs to do, and that's how I need to approach the subject. I need to not worry about what she does with her time away.
I am sorry that I can't commit to "making it work". I don't like the thought of you being with other women any more than you do. Especially ones who aren't damaged goods like me. But that also builds resentment and the mantra "it's not fair" I know you want to be with me despite my war wounds but I loathe my body. I am no longer proud of what it accomplished. And that is not fair to you either. Some part of me will hold onto the anger that my body was destroyed in the making and birthing and nursing of three big children. Your body underwent transformations only for the better. And that is not fair.
That will take a while to dismantle with the help of a qualified professional. I would imagine she's done this "internal dialogue" of self-hatred over a period of years. I am wondering how old your wife is now? Sometimes when women age...they are confronted with the loss of their youth, their beauty, their vitality...etc. So it can be a sobering experience for women in general.
Of course in my eyes, she has always been and remains a beautiful person. I understand that is twisted based on what she has done over the last 6 months, but her internalized self hatred is so huge, and her resentment to the kids is so huge, she feels it will be a huge barrier moving forward.
I've also come to another epiphany in the last little while. And that is since I loathe myself so much in your presence I loathe you for having loved that person. Even if it's not those qualities that you love. Obviously! But you accepting those parts of me hasn't made me overcome them, rather they surface more frequently. This might be a topic for our next session with FT
Applaud W for this epiphany. It makes me wonder if she's fearful of accepting unconditional love from you as she may not have received it from her parents; therefore, she may feel that she does not deserve or learned to accept unconditional love from you. Hmmmmmmmm......
Bang on Wonka, there are all kinds of inadequacy feelings that come from her FOO, and I think unconditional love scares her. She is unable to really deal with it. Of course, I can ask her further and I shouldn't make assumptions. She has always known my love was unconditional, and she may have taken this for granted? Or not have had the capacity to accept it or trust it.
Anyhow, I am sorry for how this happened and how I've handled so much of it. You deserve so much better. And you will find it. I have no doubt. And maybe one day that person will even come to see that despite the unforgivable nature of what I've done, she is lucky to be with the person & partner it helped you become.
Tell her that it must hurt to struggle so much and you hope for her to find happiness. She's wanting to reject you FIRST before you reject her. She cannot handle rejection...nor does it very well at all. So she would rather make this first move and fast! I think it has been the running thread in her life based on what she wrote about her FOO issues here.
Great Advice Wonka, I will use that line. I may respond to her email with some bolded responses, and ask her to enlighten me on the different areas, although I prefer to meet in person, I think she gets more of a chance to express herself on paper right now.
xoxo
WAW Thanks so much for stopping by my thread Wonka! I will be discussing the email with my W later this week. I just saw her now and had a light airy exchange, and then she took the kids. I'm off to GAL. Getting home from work and making dinner seriously delayed the reply, this life going on thing can be so tricky
Until my next update.........
Devaste
Dev,
I think it would be more helpful if you can post your draft response to W here first before sending it out. It is not that we think you can't do this yourself...sometimes having extra pair of eyes can help you in separating the wheat from the chaff to be sure it is in line with DBing principles of KISS and STFU.
Make sense?
P.S. What did you make for dinner?!
Will do. I'm very concerned about this as well. I've always been the optimist in our relationship, well she's been the pessimist. Maybe I should try to 180 this, which will be a struggle as I don't like to look at life that way.
Why would you want to 180 on this? Two pessimists are not a good mix. Gotta have some balance here! Just continue on your own path as the optimist because it's you at the core, right?
Absolutely Wonka,
I'll be working on that tonight and tomorrow. And I will put it up for sure!
Look forward to all the editing help I can get!
And Turkey Tacos with homemade hummus and Greek salad where a big hit with the little ones
Cheers,
Dev
I've also come to another epiphany in the last little while. And that is since I loathe myself so much in your presence I loathe you for having loved that person. Even if it's not those qualities that you love. Obviously! But you accepting those parts of me hasn't made me overcome them, rather they surface more frequently. This might be a topic for our next session with FT
This part right here seems to me to be sort of the crux of the issue....
I am not a therapist or your wife but I have suffered with these thoughts before too...
it is sort of like...
you loved this person that she really wasn't (because she didn't know who she was) and so...you sort of love the person she hates (as she does not know or love the person who suffers from such pain and depression)
so
if you love that person then how can you possibly love the REAL her? and how can she love someone who loved someone that wasn't really her but a really bad version of her
Does that make sense?
lots of people who are this depressed and who hate themselves this much, turn to drugs
she didn't
she turned to an OM
so...basically, he is her heroin right now
think of him as a drug...he isn't good or healthy for your wife but she is using him as a way of medicating her pain...a way to feel normal and in control when everything else in her life feels out of control. Once she gets healthy, she won't need to self-medicate with him but there will be guilt and you will have to help her through that...through that healing when she is who she was always supposed to be but so guilty because she can see what her self-medication caused
Dev;
I have a feeling that this email from her is a turning point.
I would respond in writing. That way you can put forth your points and she can read and reread them. Doing it in person is way too difficult. Image if instead of sending you that email she had just said all of this in person. It would have been too much for you to take in, analyse and respond to appropriately. By responding to her email in writing it allows you to put forth a very carefully considered and thoughtful approach and she deserves such a response after having gone through all the self-work and writing that she did for you.
Take what Wonka has said as a starting point (kudos to Wonka for that wonderful analysis!) and elaborate. Proofread your work and post it here for comment before sending it to her. This is a golden opportunity to set the record straight on many deep issues and to offer a path to a better M for you two.
Good luck - you've definitely got your work cut out for you.
(Seems my W has a lot of those same issues: feels she lost her identity, she just wants to find herself, to just be. To be accepted for her personhood. But she claims she gave up her identity to please me. I can sort of see how this can happen and I never would have asked for her to do that, but she made that choice and now is resentful of the consequences and blaming me.)
Thanks so much for the insight from everyone. It is truly appreciated.
figgeroni: I like the analogy. In fact I have referred to the A as an addiction with her a long time ago when I would discuss it. It is an addiction, and he is her heroin. However, I'm not sure if she has the strength to do what is required to get to the point where I can be there for her. Time will tell. Thanks for your advice!
Peter2: I agree, written response is the way to go, as it gives her something to look at, and I can control what I say on paper, instead of mistakes in person, and most importantly, she will have the freedom to respond at her leisure did she even chooses to respond. Our W's may be similar. My W has a lot of resentment and blame, and compliance. I.e. She resents me be used she complied with what I wanted. We had several core issues that were decided like this. Unhealthy and incorrect.
I should be finished my draft tomorrow night, and I will put it up for analysis and editing from the forum then. Just got back from a night of hiking and playing hockey. Yes, I live in Canada! Feels great to GAL, just need to remember my Stop signs when I start thinking of W and OM.
Cheers
Devaste
Been working on my draft, and came across a draft of a letter that I wrote but never sent back in early January. It's amazing when I read it to see how many times I cringe at what I am saying, and it makes me realize how far I've come along. I may post it after, but don't want to confuse people by putting up two drafts.
Here is my first draft, I'm not sure if it feels too long and responsive rather than emotional. I tried to validate her feelings, convey my understanding, and where I know I have erred, acknowledge my mistakes. There is much more I wanted to say, but I understand this is not about pursuit in any way. I still want to keep the road paved, but I'm not sure if I have done too much or not enough.
Suggestions? Edit away, and thanks in advance!
PS, the comment in Green is not going to be in the response, it shouldn't even be present here, but I couldn't resist
Dev
Dear "Victoria"
Thank you for sharing your perspective and feelings with me. I appreciate your openness and your honesty.
I agree with you that the last few months and years have been a bit of a blur. I truly appreciate your comments with respect to me as a father. It means a lot to me to know that you feel that way, and I value knowing that you think and believe that truly.
First of all, I want to say here that I think you are a great mother to our kids. You have fully immersed yourself in their upbringing, and doted on them and taken care of our children incredibly. You made sacrifices all the time to put the children first, and myself first, and the way the children look to you is obvious. To watch you hold each of our children and see the love and care you provided and continue to provide is truly exceptional.
When you shared how you felt about your parents and your upbringing in regards to rearing the children, it made a lot of sense to me how our roles were delineated during the kids early years. How did that make you feel to explain that to me? I understand your parents failure to support and meet all of your needs led to you wanting to care for every need of our children's to ensure that it was met. Unfortunately, that may have created some of our problems with respect to resentment. Thank you for acknowledging this.
Did you feel like I didn't support you enough or back you up with respect to raising our children? I am fully supportive of the way we have raised our children, and if you can give me some specifics of some ways that I can be more supportive of this, that would be great. I think we have both done a great job with the kids.
The last few months, I have become acutely aware of how overwhelming managing a household, parenting our children, maintaining a career, cooking, and trying to be a good partner can be. I'm sure it was too much at times? I have recognized that I failed to validate the difficulties that happen with running a house and family, and I failed to show you how important you as yourself and the person were to me. I have always loved "Victoria" the person, and nothing else. I failed to show you that and help you realize that. That is a failure on my part.
I'm glad to see that your are trying to step back a bit and re-discovering yourself as "Victoria" and I am all for that personal growth. I agree the counselling sessions we have done and the independent sessions have been great for me to realize what has happened, as well as allow both of us to explore our own identities. I welcome a safe environment where you feel that you have a voice, and I would welcome any suggestions for what I can do to make this happen?
It must be very tough to feel like you have no other options than to not work on our marriage. It must be frustrating and scary. I know you are scared of losing me, much like I am scared of losing you. I understand you feel that we are trapped in a cycle of our most wicked traits hovering. Perhaps you could elaborate on what you mean by this, and we could look at exploring this further? I wonder if this is because we know each other so well, that we allow ourselves to be most vulnerable with each other. I'm not sure though.
Interestingly for me, I have realized how many times we actually agreed on things that were big stumbling blocks, and I recognize the failure I had to communicate my thoughts to you. Two things that come to mind are the fourth child, and moving to a different area.
The feelings of despair, anxiety and suicidal thoughts that are unrelenting when you are around or near me and the kids must also be very scary and difficult to deal with. They disturb me much like they do you, and I understand you wanting to control those and minimize them. The turmoil and hopelessness would be very disturbing. I too was concerned about those feelings and thoughts, and often tried to control and minimize the impact on you. I now know that this control was not ideal, and different strategies are needed to help understand these feelings.
I'm not sure if these feelings are a result of your affair and being uncomfortable at the house knowing that is going on, or if they are deeper rooted, as you mention. I would like to help you in any way that you desire. Finding and figuring out some coping strategies might be beneficial?
It must be very stressful to feel like you have expectations to live up to. It must be overwhelming to feel that you are not meeting expectations. I have always felt that you have been an excellent mother and person, and I too have been proud to call you my wife. My only expectations are for you to be yourself, the incredible mom that you are and the person I met and fell in love with.
What type expectations do you feel? The expectations that would be present in a marriage would be between the two of us, with disregard for what anyone else thinks or feels. For me, if the two of us are happy, both of us are happy, and that is what matters to me.
I am aware that you have often felt judged by others, my family, and myself. It must be incredibly difficult to bear this burden. Speaking for myself, I have only pride for you. You have several amazing traits, your passion, your intelligence, and your care and thoughtfulness. To feel like these are unappreciated must be very difficult.
I am incredibly sad that you loathe yourself and resent me for loving you unconditionally. It must be horrible to feel that way, and to feel like that about yourself. I would welcome a discussion about this with IC.
I understand that you truly feel that you have no options at this time other than the course you are taking. I recognize that it must hurt to struggle so much, and I truly hope that you find the happiness you have been seeking. I am happy to support you in your journey to find your own happiness and identity
This outcome is not something that I desire, but I will not stand in your way. I realize how important the establishment of your own identity is before any relationship is possible.
Yours always
Devaste
Thanks for reading. I await suggestions!
Dev,
This is a good start. I'd suggest that you whittle the letter down to about 3-4 paragraphs.
There is no need to have a point, counterpoint, and draw in your email to W. This isn't a fencing competition, ya know.
Go back and re-work your draft some more using the KISS and STFU principles.
Haha Wonka,
I was pretty focused on validating all of her points. I'll get back at it and pare it down a lot. I agree it's too long. Just trying to make sure I acknowledge my mistakes, keep the road paved, and maintain my boundaries for our R going forward (I.e if there is an OM involved we will not be friends). Tricky to do, and also want to make sure she feels listened too. Back to work
Thanks
Dev
Glad you got all that down and out of your system, Dev. In addition to what Wonka is suggesting - and her suggestion will likely negate mine - I'd try to really limit the number of times you repeat the same validating phrases (i.e. "It must be very tough/difficult/hard"). While those ARE good phrases to use when validating, when we use them too often, they come across as "coached" and insincere.
But I think most of that will be taken care of automatically when you really crunch down the response.
Dev; I agree with Train regarding all the "that must be difficult" phrases. It's a good start. I would have done the same thing addressing each issue one at a time, but I like Wonka's suggestion to paring it down to salient points. I think it's good to build her self-esteem early in the response so she's propelled to keep reading. Most importantly, speak from your heart, but don't wear it on your sleeve.
Dev,
Checking in on you. Hope everything's ok with you.
Hey Wonka,
Thanks for checking in! I'm doing ok. Been an interesting few days here. I have to do an update. And post my final draft. Thanks for all the advice from everyone, I've shortened it up a lot. I'm planning for tonight, tomorrow at the latest. If I get back from my GAL early enough tonight, I'll post.
Thanks
Dev
Ok,
First bit of an update. Wednesday night was my first contact with W for any prolonged period of time. Kept it light and easy, and then she started into a discussion about when she could get time away. I offered the Friday night. She complained it wasn't long enough, and started to get very upset about how little time she is getting away. I sat down on the couch, STFU, and listened to her vent. Then I spoke, echoing whet she was asking. It has to mostly do with the schedule for the weekends, when the kids are in activities. I know from when I was snooping that OM is really frustrated with lack of time etc, and they are having problems. My W asked if I had even read the letter she sent.
This gave me a chance to verbally address some of the issues, and I told her I would be sending a response. I just emphasized how tough and overwhelming running the household must have been, especially if she felt she was doing it on her own. Nothing else was really discussed, and we agreed on the times for the weekend.
Forward to the next day, W has the kids for most of the day, but they stay at my house at night. When I get home from work, I have a text message that I don't respond to. Then she calls me, and tells me she is unfit to be a mom, is unable to handle the kids in public, and tells me about how horrible the last two days have been when she has had the kids. She tells me a neighbour 300 feet away came by in the day to see if she was ok, and said she could hear her yelling from her house, and wanted to make sure the kids were ok. My nanny wasn't here at this time.
I spoke with her for a few minutes, emphasizing how it must be tough to feel like you are a horrible mom, and just listened. Then as soon as I could, I got off the phone. I did point out I do not think she is a horrible mom, using examples of great things she has done in the past. She was feeling judged by everyone, our neighbour, people at the grocery store.
In short, the pattern of feeling judged and inadequate to do her role is always coming to the surface. In the past I always attempted to negate this or argue this, and now I realize I needed to be supportive in a different way and help her realize and fight her demons herself with tools. I only wish we had done more IC earlier.
I will post my draft tomorrow morning, but I'm late for my movie now.
Thanks
Dev
Okay, here is my draft, bit of a rough night tonight. Inadvertently came across email where my W stated the M was over and was asking for advice on how to divide up assets. I know that is obviously how she feels, because that's how she is acting. Just hurts, a lot. A kick in the ass for me though. Anyways, here is my letter. I'm not sure if I should mention anything about wanting a relationship, I'm sure she knows that already. Also not sure if I should talk about bit being friends, don't want to be threatening. Am I keeping the road paved? There's enough roadblocks already on it
Dear WAW,
Thank you for sending me your email. I appreciated the insight you provided for me. It is apparent that running the household with the lifestyle we had and the number of things we had going on was both overwhelming and incredibly difficult. I think you did a great job and I am sorry that you did not feel you had my full support and backing with the parenting of our children, and the way in which we ran our house. I'm sorry that I didn't listen as well as I should have. These are regrets for me.
The last several months have allowed me to realize what is important to me and what I value in my life. I have been afforded the opportunity to become closer with my children, and I have realized I have made several mistakes. I plan to utilize the new tools I have for communication, and the lifestyle changes I am making are permanent.
Going forward, it was my hope to be able to create a new relationship with you, as our old marriage was not functional. I understand you need to have your own space and identity, and support in order to realize your full potential. The sacrifice you made to start our family will always be remembered. A healthy WAW is integral to the well being of everyone in this family.
I understand that your intentions and wishes are different than mine, and I respect them, as we both move forward. While a divorce is not what I would like to happen, I will not stand in the way of your wishes. While we will not be friends in this new chapter of our lives, I want to ensure we communicate effectively for the kids well being.
Sincerely
Dev
Dev,
Hope the movie was a good one and that you enjoyed it.
First things first...before I respond to your draft email...
Inadvertently came across email where my W stated the M was over and was asking for advice on how to divide up assets.
When was this? When did she send that email? After her long one or??? Answers to this impacts my feedback to you.
Hey Wonka,
Movie was great, but seems like ages ago after last night. So the email was sent to a L, and she is meeting with the lawyer on July 2. The email and meeting with L were scheduled to occur before she sent me the long email. She sent the email and spoke with the L on the Wed before sending the email to me on the Sunday. She wrote the email to me on her way to see the OM. Last night, when I picked up the kids, she told me she would be downtown, inferring for me to stay away because she was with the OM. Anyways, that is irrelevant, but that may be why my draft changed a lot
. I wished I could have got a sitter and gone downtown with friends. Nothing like feeling ostracized in your own city. That's on me though.
Thanks, Dev.
You are going to need to approach your email response from a different angle given what you've said about W's recent movements and statements.
I think it is time to really lay out the "we're not going to be friends after D although you'll be civil" speech to W. Time for you to shake things up in W's mind.
Get on the draft and re-work it fast. I think it needs to be send out to W by tomorrow.
Thanks Wonka,
Just out with with my kids. Will rework when I get home. W has been texting questions about our activities today. She is with OM. Don't really want to respond. Not sure if I should ignore, be upbeat and pretend nothing is bothering me, or just send a one word minimal answer. Thoughts?
Thanks
Dev
This is not an emergency. I think you can summarize the activities after you get back later tonight in your response to W. You're busy with the kiddos!
Ok,
Here is my modified draft. I think I clearly need to take some things out. Yes, I'm trying to shake her up. It is how I feel, however, I'm not sure what everyone thinks? Edit and 2x4 away
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear WAW,
Thank you so much for your enlightening email last week. It has given me an appreciation for how you feel, and how overwhelming it must have been to run our household and fulfill your roles as a mother and wife, and feel like you had very little support. I can truly see how you lost your identity, and took on new roles. I am disappointed that you feel that you are incapable of meeting expectations of my family. I can imagine you have thought long and hard about what has happened with us.
I have done much reflection and thought over the last few months as well. I have been afforded the opportunity to develop fantastic relationships with each of the kids, and I have learned a lot about myself, and how I communicate. It is disappointing we were unable to attempt to work on these issues together. I am aware of the responsibility that I have had with respect to our marriage breakdown, and I accept my role wholeheartedly.
As you are still involved with OM, I have made the decision that I will not be your friend moving forward. While this is terrifying for myself as well, I chose not to surround myself with people that have hurt me. Back in January and February, I explained what my boundaries with respect to the OM were. If our M ended due to you choosing not to work on it and continue to see the OM, I told you I would not be able to continue to be your friend. Unfortunately the choice you made and have maintained was to keep your relationship with OM going.
While D is not what I would like at this time, I will not stand in your way as you chose this path. We will continue to have a relationship with respect to the children that is civil, but I would like to cease all other communication.
You have been an important part of my life for 20 years, but I will survive and move on. You are correct, I will be fine, and meet a partner that is deserving of the type of love, commitment, loyalty and support that I am capable of providing.
While it pains me that this is not a new R with you, I can say confidently that I tried and made an effort, and I will sleep well with the knowledge that I gave it my all. Best of luck in your future.
Sincerely,
Devaste
Dev, as you well know, this cannot be a tactic trying to "shake her up". You have to be there.
Having followed your situation from the beginning, you may well be, and honestly, she seems very far gone. She sounds very uncomfortable in her own skin, let alone prepared for the demands of a family. She has much work to do over much time.
Your letter sounds so final, and yet so healthy for you.
The only thing that I would change is where you say "I will not be your friend"; change the "will" to "can". It's not that it's your choice not to, it's just that it's not possible.
I'm no expert but I think the email sounds really good, assuming you are truly at the end of the line as the email indicates.
Hey Guys,
Thanks for the feedback. The trouble for me is obviously a D is not what I want. I don't want to force anything, and I can be more patient. However, she is going to meet with a lawyer, whom she told the M is over anyways. I know don't listen to a WAW, but I know she has to think that at this time anyways to justify what she is doing.
Zew, I like the suggestion and will implement that for sure. Your right, this will not shake her up. Just probably reinforce for her.
mdu, thanks for your words, you've made me wonder if it is too hard? I'm confused about everything except the fact that the D is bit what I want. I know I still love my W, I know based on how I feel when I see her.
That is poor detachment on my part completely. I like the box analogy of sticking my heart in it and putting it on the top shelf of the closet for now.
This is a letter that I wrote when I was furious in January. I didn't send it then. Probably a good thing. I like to think I've evolved. It was full of judgement and threats.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear WAW,
So, I think we can both say our time has come to an end, rather unceremoniously if I do say for myself. I was shocked, hurt, and betrayed beyond belief by what you have done over the last two months.
I'm not sure your really thinking straight, because you are caught up in an escape, but that is not my call to make. I have loved you like no other woman in my life. I have tried to be the best husband I can be. I look fondly on our relationship as a great journey. Unfortunately, for me it has been cut short. The pain of this will last for some time for me.
Accordingly, I will need to move on to protect myself. Effective immediately, we will need to establish some ground rules for access to children and financial ground rules. We have been partners in many great adventures for years.
I am saddened that you have chosen to end our marriage without giving it a try. I take solace in the fact that I am confident you will one day regret the hasty decision you have made. We have far too much together to throw it away for a fling.
I have been treated like garbage, and hurt substantially. I understand my errors and wish I could have had a chance to correct them with you and allow our lives to florish. I hope you one day realize what you have lost, as I already do.
Take care WAW. While we will converse regarding the kids, whose lives will be indeterminately affected, my contact with you, for self preservation, will be minimal. No longer able to share the smile of success, the glint of surprise, or the embrace of love with you, I chose to see you as little as possible.
You had all my love forever, but you took it and threw it back at me. I deserve better, and will have better.
I'm not a bad person. I deserve someone that loves me for whom I
am.
All the best for your future,
Dev
Looking at this I like to think I see changes. Hopefully she does
Maybe if you want to soften it just a tad change this statement very, very slightly:
"I chose not to surround myself with people that have hurt me"
to
"I chose not to surround myself with people that hurt me"
To me the first one seems like you have decided you will never be around her again since she has hurt you. Almost like you would never forgive her. Make sense?
I'd for sure wait for some vets to weigh in, though! As always, you're doing amazing.
Thanks mdu,
I appreciate your kind words. And I like your suggestion as well. I'll wait for some more suggestions and edits, and then post another draft.
Thanks
Dev
Dev, if you're in ON or QC, I'll definitely take you out for beers on my way through next month.
and yes, that first letter was not worthy!
Haha, thanks Zee, I'd love to, unfortunately I'm on the other coast
. The offer stands if your out here ever of course.
And yes. That first letter was not worthy at all.
Dev,
Good start. I would suggest some changes and close it with Starksy's comments about a boundary of not living in an open marriage. I've been searching Oxford's and RedHawk's threads for that particular comment by Starsky and came up empty. I know it is somewhere in the DB forums.
Starsky, if you are around, could you pretty please post that paragraph about your core value and boundary about not being friends if the WAW chooses a D and living in a M with the OM. I think it is now the time for Dev to borrow your line in his response to W.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dear WAW,
So, I think we can both say our time has come to an end, rather unceremoniously if I do say for myself. I was shocked, hurt, and betrayed beyond belief by what you have done over the last two months. This is a very weak opening. I would say this is shaming. Also say nothing about being betrayed. How's that helping your stich.
I'm not sure your really thinking straight, because you are caught up in an escape, but that is not my call to make.Moralzing. Not helpful. And who's to judge that W is not "thinking straight?!" I have loved you like no other woman in my life. I have tried to be the best husband I can be. I look fondly on our relationship as a great journey. Unfortunately, for me it has been cut short. The pain of this will last for some time for me. STFU about pain lasting a long time. You want to project yourself as a strong man and that you'll be alright.
Accordingly, I will need to move on to protect myself. Effective immediately, we will need to establish some ground rules for access to children and financial ground rules.
What rules? We have been partners in many great adventures for years.
I am saddened that you have chosen to end our marriage without giving it a try. She's tried, and tried. You can simply state that D is not what you want but would not stand in her way.I take solace in the fact that I am confident you will one day regret the hasty decision you have made. We have far too much together to throw it away for a fling. Self-righteous indignation. Drop it. Not attractive.
I have been treated like garbage, and hurt substantially. I understand my errors and wish I could have had a chance to correct them with you and allow our lives to florish. I hope you one day realize what you have lost, as I already do. What happened to the first part about "Wow..thanks for sharing about your struggles...etc. That was a good one! Go back to that and work it in a bit. It shows W that you listened and how you would have done things a bit differently.
Take care WAW. While we will converse regarding the kids, whose lives will be indeterminately affected, my contact with you, for self preservation, will be minimal. No longer able to share the smile of success, the glint of surprise, or the embrace of love with you, I chose to see you as little as possible. It sounds a bit petulant. Be the strong one. I'd suggest that you close this with Starsky's paragraph about not being friends if W chose D. That's a powerful message.
You had all my love forever, but you took it and threw it back at me. I deserve better, and will have better. I'd jettison this. It comes a across as a bit angry.
I'm not a bad person. I deserve someone that loves me for whom I
am. I'd end this on a high note. Re-work this a bit more.
All the best for your future,
Dev
I found it from Corbean's thread! Here it goes. I liked the other one where Starsky spoke about his core boundaries. Gotta dig around a bit for that one.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
During my sitch, when my wife was still in the throes of her affair, I said the following to her:
"_________, I feel like I need to be clear with you about something. You keep using the word 'friends.' Make no mistake -- if you choose to end our marriage this way, by having an affair and lying to everyone about it including your own parents and our adult children . . . then I have absolutely zero intentions of being 'friends' with you. We will co-parent our children, and I will of course be civil and courteous, but this isn't how 'friends' treat each other, I'm sorry. However, if you choose to end your affair and come back and work on our marriage with me . . . and if after a period of time (say, 6-12 months) you feel like this cannot be fixed, and you've given it your best shot? Then yes, I could see us ending up not only co-parents but probably pretty good friends, as we've always had so much in common. I mean it would take a little while for me to get there, but I could see it. But NOT like this . . . not what you're doing now, to me and to the family."
She told me two months later, when we reconciled, that the LOSS OF OUR FRIENDSHIP was the single biggest factor she decided to end her affair and come back and try to work on the marriage with me.
There is nothing wrong with lovingly stating your non-negotiable boundaries.
Starsky
Wonka,
I'm so sorry, that letter was one I posted from January that I didn't send. I was trying to show how much I had improved. I was worried that might happen. The draft I wanted to send was actually a few posts back before that. Sorry about the confusion. I shouldn't have posted two letters at the same time.
Dev
This is the letter is was working with:
Ok,
Here is my modified draft. I think I clearly need to take some things out. Yes, I'm trying to shake her up. It is how I feel, however, I'm not sure what everyone thinks? Edit and 2x4 away
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear WAW,
Thank you so much for your enlightening email last week. It has given me an appreciation for how you feel, and how overwhelming it must have been to run our household and fulfill your roles as a mother and wife, and feel like you had very little support. I can truly see how you lost your identity, and took on new roles. I am disappointed that you feel that you are incapable of meeting expectations of my family. I can imagine you have thought long and hard about what has happened with us.
I have done much reflection and thought over the last few months as well. I have been afforded the opportunity to develop fantastic relationships with each of the kids, and I have learned a lot about myself, and how I communicate. It is disappointing we were unable to attempt to work on these issues together. I am aware of the responsibility that I have had with respect to our marriage breakdown, and I accept my role wholeheartedly.
As you are still involved with OM, I have made the decision that I will not be your friend moving forward. While this is terrifying for myself as well, I chose not to surround myself with people that have hurt me. Back in January and February, I explained what my boundaries with respect to the OM were. If our M ended due to you choosing not to work on it and continue to see the OM, I told you I would not be able to continue to be your friend. Unfortunately the choice you made and have maintained was to keep your relationship with OM going.
While D is not what I would like at this time, I will not stand in your way as you chose this path. We will continue to have a relationship with respect to the children that is civil, but I would like to cease all other communication.
You have been an important part of my life for 20 years, but I will survive and move on. You are correct, I will be fine, and meet a partner that is deserving of the type of love, commitment, loyalty and support that I am capable of providing.
While it pains me that this is not a new R with you, I can say confidently that I tried and made an effort, and I will sleep well with the knowledge that I gave it my all. Best of luck in your future.
Sincerely,
Devaste
Dev,
Here's some changes and edits. This makes it more to the point and clearly spells out consequences for W.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dear WAW,
Thank you for sharing your perspective and feelings with me. I appreciate your openness and your honesty.
I agree with you that the last few months and years have been a bit of a blur. I truly appreciate your comments with respect to me as a father. It means a lot to me to know that you feel that way, and I value knowing that you think and believe that truly.
First of all, I want to say here that I think you are a great mother to our kids. You have fully immersed yourself in their upbringing, and doted on them and taken care of our children incredibly. You made sacrifices all the time to put the children first, and myself first, and the way the children look to you is obvious. To watch you hold each of our children and see the love and care you provided and continue to provide is truly exceptional.
When you shared how you felt about your parents and your upbringing in regards to rearing the children, it made a lot of sense to me how our roles were delineated during the kids early years. How did that make you feel? I can only imagine how difficult it was for you.
Did you feel like I didn't support you enough or back you up with respect to raising our children? I would like to understand your thoughts on this better. If you would please give me some examples, that would be great so I am more self-aware of your needs in this regard. I think we have both done a great job with the kids.
I want to be clear on some things. One is that I do not want a divorce, but will not stand in your way should you choose to continue on this path. Two, I am not willing live in an open marriage with a third party.
We will not be friends should you decide to proceed with a D. Make no mistake -- if you choose to end our marriage this way, by continuing your affair with OM. It is incredibly disrespectful to me, to our marriage and our family. We will co-parent our children, and I will of course be civil and courteous, but this isn't how 'friends' treat each other.
Going forward starting now, as long as you are involved in an affair with the OM, our communication only be focused on the logistics of the children's schedules, their issues, and exchanges.
We have some decisions to make here. When you’re ready, please let me know your thoughts.
Sincerely,
Devaste
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Watch for the possibility that W will get very angry and try to draw you back in or spewing a litany of your faults, wrongs, flaws, mistakes, etc.
Stand strong! She's in an active affair and breaking up the family.
Thanks Wonka,
I love it. It recognizes several of the issues she had raised, and then gives me a voice as well. Thanks again. And sorry about the extra letter I posted and the confusion. Now, send it while she is with OM, or after we swap kids today. I'm tempted to send it now.
Dev
Perfect letter, Wonka. Hits all the right notes, and covers all the important issues without beating them to death.
And yeah, Dev -- be prepared and put on that spew raincoat. If necessary, just repeat back the same (or nearly the same) thing each time: "I'm sorry you feel that way; everything I'm doing, I'm doing the best I can under difficult circumstances to try to protect myself and our family." If she gets downright rude, or profane or disrespectful, and the conversation calmly by saying "When you're ready to calm down, I will listen, but I will not be talked to that way."
Or something similar.
Starsky
Dev,
Something to keep in mind here.
-You are not W's plan B.
-You are not W's gay boyfriend/best friend.
Then act accordingly.
Send that baby! (And we are here to listen to the spew if it heads your way.)
Ok,
Just did the child exchange, and was reasonably upbeat. Somewhat confusing. W was obviously fearful and nervous around me. She is always like that after she returns from OM.
I sent the email and gave her a heads up it's on it's way. I'm scared about losing access to my kids. Seeing them almost every day is the best thing for me, and makes me incredibly happy.
However, I know this I something I need I do.
Thanks everyone for your help with the letter. It is much appreciated. I couldn't imagine where I would be without this forums support. I fear I am not even Plan D for my wife, but the letter had to be sent. Don't imagine I will get a response. I will see what happens.
Cheers, I'm off to hike and GAL tonight again.
Devaste
All the best with that Devaste!
I'm considering getting a short letter ready myself.
Just in case I should hear something from mine soon.
We're here rooting for and support you, Dev.
You totally need and deserve to be someone's plan A+
Well, that didn't take long, not sure if this is initial response or what, but this is the text exchange that just happened. I feel sick, but I need to stay strong. Clearly, I've shaken her up. Not sure what to believe. Just finished my hike, gonna make me some tuna togarashi wraps, and go to hockey. Comments of course are welcome. Thanks for all the support!
I pick it up when she tells me thanks for getting her back because the kids were tired:
Dev: They went to sleep at 9:30. If you want to hear why, I'd love to talk about it. I was with them for 2 and a half hours. Sorry they are tired.
WAW: I don't.
WAW: Your email was enough
I'm done
Dev:I'm sorry you feel that way, I had lots of discussion there.
WAW:Nope
Dev: Did you see the questions I asked?
WAW: Don't know
DEV: Take some time, there's no rush
WAWIt's not a discussion. It's threats. I'm done with it all
DEV: No threat implied at all WAW. I need to stand up for what is best for our family. You know where I stand, there is no threat at all.
WAW: And guilt laden
I'm inadequate
And I'm done
You just don't know when
It doesn't matter
I am done
DEV: I'm sorry you feel that way, I meant everything I said
Your are not inadequate at all
WAW: Our kids are [censored]
No matter what
So that helps
I have nothing else to say to you
But keep that other email
And hide any cards you have from me before I destroy them like the
others
So that was the extent of that. Pretty obvious to me she glossed over everything else and saw I would not be her friend, and that's what's happening. Either way what did I have to lose. She's on her way out anyways, and I need to make a stand. I want to fight for her. But I have to improve myself. She has to realize I'm not always going to be there. She has said the type of stuff up there before. But I'm not sure if this time she means it.
Any thoughts?
Dev
Time will tell if she means it.
The hardest part now is not backing down.
I tried to see if I could find an inflammatory thing in that letter. I couldn't find one.
Some of the things she has said aren't coming from a rational mind.
Dev,
Hold firm!!! Don't you dare to go Gumby-legged on us.
W's reaction is not surprising at all. She's pissed that she's being called out for her behavior so, in a snit, she says she's done. You've put her on notice.
So from here and on....focus on the kids when talking with W.
"We are not talking if you are still with OM. Anything you'd like to discuss about the kids? None? Well, ok. Bye"
You WON'T LOSE the kids. It is between you and Mrs. Dev.
Don't worry about her behavior and reactions...it is all on her.
Dev, I got the same reaction after I stood my ground a while back. I locked her out of my computer and told her no R talk until A is over. She told me "I'm done." and "We're done" I endured a very icy day. I thought I was pooched.
But the following weekend she came home and told me the A was over. She wanted me to hold her to see what it feels like.
I know our Ws are different, but by making a stand will garner that reaction initially. Remember, she still has the PEA induced brain and cannot think clearly. Give it some time. Things often get worse before they get better. That's part of healing. Hang in there.
And guilt laden
I'm inadequate
And I'm done
You just don't know when
It doesn't matter
I am done
I am a little concerned about her stability. You may tell her that there is the potential for forgiveness and that will over time ease the guilt. You already addressed the inadequacy.
Scratch that last comment about forgiveness. This is not the time to start talking about that. This is clearly spewing. Put on that spew jacket. She may just be getting started.
Typical response, Dev.
Fact is: you taking a stand for your family DID call her out on her bad behavior. She's lashing out like any person acting like a spoiled, selfish child would. And you did it without losing your cool.
See through her lashing. If she doesn't respect you for your stand right now, you can certainly respect yourself. And one day, she'll respect you for it. Mark my words. Your letter had absolutely NOTHING in it that would offend a person who's thinking with a good, rational mind.
And Dev, that stand you took? From a woman's perspective? It was sexyyyy!
There's nothing quite like a man taking a firm, but gentle, stand for his family/children.
I'm applauding you today.
P.S. Another "Train question" for the vets here:
I completely agree with Wonka when she said this:
So from here and on....focus on the kids when talking with W.
"We are not talking if you are still with OM. Anything you'd like to discuss about the kids? None? Well, ok. Bye"
... because in the letter, Dev said this:
Going forward starting now, as long as you are involved in an affair with the OM, our communication only be focused on the logistics of the children's schedules, their issues, and exchanges.
HOWEVER, Dev also posed some questions for discussion relevant to their marriage/relationship. I presume, if his WAW chooses to address those questions since Dev posed them, that would be an exception to the "children-talk-only" rule??? Or no?
Can someone clarify for him (me - lol) what he should do if she wants to talk about those points now? Because that might even confuse the WAW: Dev asks questions, then adds: but, oh, we're not gonna talk about anything other than the kids as long as you're with OM.
Thanks Train,
I wondered the same thing. I also wanted to say how much I appreciated waking up to all the support there. I was up pretty late myself having GAL, so I kept my mind off of it. I was worried I screwed up in the text exchange. Thanks for the support. I'm Off to do some more exercise. Will see what unfolds
Cheers
Dev
Train,
If the W opens up and wants to talk about her issues to Dev, he can listen and validate. But the point here is that Dev is not a gay boyfriend available all the time to listen to her "problems" while she carries on an active affair. Don't want to make a habit out of this like Oxford. Oh lord! No!!!
Yes, Dev will need to work hard to limit communications to kids etc. but not entirely close off W if she brings up R talk. No talks like Oxford and his W. Perish that thought!
See the difference?
Perfect. That makes sense.
I hate the details. I always wring my hands over them.
Thanks for clarifying, Wonka!
Thanks Wonka and Train and Peter,
I get it, I've been following the other stiches, I look at this as just something I need to do either way. Going to play it by ear. She's stubborn and she knows the deal. More patience on my part. I am a bit concerned about her veiled threat of it will be over but I don't know when, but she does know I can be there for her under certain conditions. I also think it's obvious that I am open to R under certain conditions. She has a lot of work to do. As do I. Thanks again everyone for all the support.
Cheers,
Dev
Bit of an update,
Not going to lie. Going dark totally has been really hard to do. But really only because I miss W, and I realize that's the idea on the other side. I had to call her this AM because of a kids emergency, but nothing else was discussed. She did mention she had a meeting today, no idea what that is for
Had one of those "windows" I spoke about a thread ago open again, and I was able to see that there is some attempt at stopping the A and communication going on with respect to ending things. WAW mentioned she is tired of having people think she is having an affair, and people referring to the affair. Not going to lie, brought a smile to my face. I have no idea who has initiated it, but I did see all kinds of interesting things. Of course, I don't think that means I'm in the plans at all.
Just need to stay the strong road and go with it. Either way, it's what I need anyways.
Hey Dev, a little bird suggested I swing by. Sorry I was late to the party, however, I don't see a thing I would have said differently from Wonka's guidance.
Your WAW's letter was really sad. Almost sounded like a farewell letter from her. Had a lot of troubling points, especially about her babies. Whatever happens in the future, I hope you won t blame yourself b/c I think the seeds to those issues were already planted before you M her, and just grew over time. I feel so sorry for your kids, and hope this doesn't cause phychological problems for them. I'm glad they have you to stabilize their lives.
I believe the reason your W is so ticked is b/c she feels as if
she is the one getting the boot, after reading your email. Your directness hit her where it hurt, especially the "friendship" issue. I think she was counting on having you as her BFF. I am glad you didn't sugar coat your reasons for the decision. She is angry right now, but later she will hit another level of depression......I think......when she realizes she really has lost you in every way, not just as a H.
And, IDK, it could even push her to test you out to see if you really stick by it. And each time as you draw her attention back to the third party.....she will try to make
you out to be the jerk.
I admire your strength and courage! Continue marching forward.
Thanks Sandi,
I appreciate you stopping by, and appreciate your insight. I will try to stay the course, and I fear for my kids as well. Thanks for your input.
Cheers
Dev
Ok,
More windows, it appears that the A has been ended by WAW. I just want to make sure I stay my course completely right? I don't think this is the first time she's tried, but it's interesting to say the least.
Stay the course, stay the course, until she tells me her A is over, and she wants to talk? I don't trust anything right now, especially because she hasn't said boo to me about it.
Thoughts?
Dev
Dev, my man, you are the bomb-dot-com.
Don't have anything to add, but I think your kids, with your strong guidance, love and leadership, will be just fine in the end.
Hang in there.
If the A has ended there will be a withdrawal process. It's like a junkie getting off his drugs. There may be some backsliding on her part, but if her minds made up then the backslides may not last long. If you've loved someone and then have to let them go it's hard to do. See it from her perspective. Not that you should share that with her. And during this withdrawal period she may go through many mood swings. It'll be a rollercoaster ride for her, like it's been for you.
Yes, stay the course. If she comes to you and says the A is over and there's NC with OM forever, then you can tentatively start the process of rebuilding trust. I highly recommend continuing with MC for that if it gets to that point.
I really think the email reply had the desired effect. Way to go!
Sandi,
From your perspective and experience as a former WAW with EXOM, what would you advise Dev to do and NOT to do in the next coming few weeks? What were some of the things that you think would work better?
What made you take the step to really finally end things with your XOM? What was your mindset like during that particular time? What were some of the critical things that your H did that aided in the process (or did not do)?
I think having your insight would be very, very helpful to Dev as it seems that his W is on the cusp of ending her A with the OM.