Loot and lawyers ... - DivorceBusting.com

Now that I'm in the throes of legalities - and hitting 15 pages on Mondays for days ..., I figured it's best to start a new thread ...

Here's my original one with background: Take Two

Starsky, on the last thread, when I detailed the numbers, those are rough monthly totals, based on every-other-week pay. Technically, every month has 4.3 weeks, and I didn't take the time to calculate it like that. I based most of that on being paid twice a month. Hope that makes sense. In a nutshell, H is paying $2,080 a month (using 4.3 weeks a month) now for CS and SS combined.

And L is saying that might actually be pretty reasonable, even though we had pitched $2,600 a month ($1,600 for CS and $1,000 in SS for 10 years). We're still going to talk about it.

Moving this over here, Starsky.

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Thanks -- now I get it. I'm a little slow this morning.

So he's basically saying "you can either pay the mortgage and provide our children with shelter, or you can buy groceries, haircuts, medicine, gas to cart our kids around, etc. . . . but you can't pay both."

Because $1,920/month doesn't even cover the mortgage payment!!!

It will cover the mortgage and leave me with less than $800 for groceries, utilities, etc. I'll need to get a job, obviously. But a job for me would cover only daycare for D2 with some change left over. THAT'S my struggle.

Sorry, I had misread the mortgage payment as being $2,228/mo, not $1,228.

Is there any equity in the home?

I guess I'm still shocked that he's willing to strategically default, unless he's way underwater on the mortgage vs. the home's value. And that he's leaving it to YOU to pay that (or not), out of your end.

Unless there was some sizable equity in it (and I had a reasonable legal claim to 1/2 of it under my state's family court laws), I would be inclined to accept his monthly contribution to you, but SKIP MAKING THE MORTGAGE PAYMENT, while beginning to seek suitable rental property in my desired area (like S7's school district). Even though NC is a non-judicial state for foreclosures, and they seem to be running 90-180 days (unlike Florida's 400+ days), you could sock away some needed funds doing that. And there are legal moves you could make to delay it even further.

Just a thought. It IS a huge decision.

Omgoodness. H is on a *roll* today for some reason.

Just texted that he just opened his own personal bank account and I will need to go shut down the joint account. I told him that's no problem - I'll handle it when I return from my vacation. I asked if he would need the new account information for direct-deposit. He said "you bet."

Then, he texted, "Then all that's left (to split) is car insurance."

And then ... "Oh, and the actual marriage."

I ignored that and just asked him to re-confirm about not paying the mortgage. I said, "With the decrease in support being about $1,300/month (I think - haven't crunched numbers yet), I'll obviously not be able to pay the mortgage. Just double-checking that's what you still want me to do?" He wrote, "All up to you. I give a f**k about the house. You might wanna see if you can refinance, cause of the circumstances and keep it for yaself."

I wrote back, telling him refinancing would take me having a job, "which means $800-$1K a month in daycare for D2. All kinds of obstacles."

He wrote: "Yup."

And I said: "Enjoy your day. We'll see you later. :(" The frown face was SERIOUSLY a complete accident, so I quickly wrote: "Oops:) lol"

Something has set him on FIRE this week! Whewwww dawgy!

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Unless there was some sizable equity in it (and I had a reasonable legal claim to 1/2 of it under my state's family court laws), I would be inclined to accept his monthly contribution to you, but SKIP MAKING THE MORTGAGE PAYMENT, while beginning to seek suitable rental property in my desired area (like S7's school district). Even though NC is a non-judicial state for foreclosures, and they seem to be running 90-180 days (unlike Florida's 400+ days), you could sock away some needed funds doing that. And there are legal moves you could make to delay it even further.

I have been thinking long and hard about this decision. H just made the decision easier for me. I have NO choice now ...

Originally Posted By: Train

I ignored that and just asked him to re-confirm about not paying the mortgage. I said, "With the decrease in support being about $1,300/month (I think - haven't crunched numbers yet), I'll obviously not be able to pay the mortgage. Just double-checking that's what you still want me to do?" He wrote, "All up to you. I give a f**k about the house. . . .

God, what a moron he is to put that in writing like that. Yet somehow a beautiful thing.

You might have some good (or less-sucky at least?) options here then.

Originally Posted By: Train

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Unless there was some sizable equity in it (and I had a reasonable legal claim to 1/2 of it under my state's family court laws), I would be inclined to accept his monthly contribution to you, but SKIP MAKING THE MORTGAGE PAYMENT, while beginning to seek suitable rental property in my desired area (like S7's school district). Even though NC is a non-judicial state for foreclosures, and they seem to be running 90-180 days (unlike Florida's 400+ days), you could sock away some needed funds doing that. And there are legal moves you could make to delay it even further.

I have been thinking long and hard about this decision. H just made the decision easier for me. I have NO choice now ...

What is the mortgage balance, and what does Zillow say it's worth presently?

Good lawd. I had gone all week, calling this week "boring" ... but knowing the other shoe could drop at any moment.

He's really laying all his remaining cards out at one time, ain't he?

Originally Posted By: Train

Good lawd. I had gone all week, calling this week "boring" ... but knowing the other shoe could drop at any moment.

He's really laying all his remaining cards out at one time, ain't he?

Yes, and he's a fool for doing so. My guess is that OW is giving him pressure to "wrap things up," and he's proudly reporting back to her. But legally, he's being FOOLISH to put this stuff in writing, IMHO.

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God, what a moron he is to put that in writing like that. Yet somehow a beautiful thing.

The thing is: he IS a moron. But he honestly doesn't give a f**k. He's not just saying that. That's how he gets, especially off his ADs.

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What is the mortgage balance, and what does Zillow say it's worth presently?

The house is upside down, especially considering the current market. There's still $159K to pay; we've only had it 12 years. I don't know it's worth. But it's upside down. And it needs a new roof. Lots of improvements. It's historic.

I'll check Zillow. Never even heard of that.

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legally, he's being FOOLISH to put this stuff in writing, IMHO.

If I had deep pockets, it might be foolish. But he knows I can't afford to "fight" him. I have a friend representing me who I think is going to go after what's "fair." But a fight? Likely won't be one. So "evidence" of any kind - while I keep it and pass it along - is likely a moot point. I could be wrong. But that's my guess. L is acting like the decision to default is all mine, and he isn't advising against it. He's even saying now that what H is paying me, as of today, might be "reasonable." Certainly not providing me with much of a backbone today.

Train,

After the events of the day, I might want to retract the post I sent you earlier.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, zew!!! Right?!??

Pull a free credit report on yourself, and find out if the mortgage shows under your name/SSN, and what other marital debts include you.

If you are upside-down (and after 12 years, I bet you're closer to break-even that super-far-underwater?? check zillow.com) . . . I'd be inclined to take his $2k'ish/month, skip making the mortgage payments, and let the house go into default. I'd ESPECIALLY be inclined to do that if you are NOT on the note (and it doesn't show up on your credit reports -- check all 3 bureaus, btw). You could sock away funds, and then eventually reach out to the bank and/or someone who buys it after it foreclosures, and offer to rent back from them, keeping your kids in the same house. If not, you could find other suitable rental home nearby for $1200 - $1500/mo?, trying to keep your son in the same school district, but you would have socked away $1200/mo for 4-12 months (or even longer, if you wanted and were willing to file for BK and/or do other things to contest the foreclosure action).

I know it's all scary stuff, but if the house is NOT in your name, you really may have some good options here, Train. Renting ain't bad (think: NOT YOUR PROBLEM if the a/c stops working, or the roof leaks!), and you could rebuild your own credit in 2-5 years.

Starsky

Starsky

I will check into all those things, Starsky. Thank you.

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but you would have socked away $1200/mo for 4-12 months

Correction: I WOULD have been able to save that ... if H didn't just cut his support by $1,300/month. Now, I'll be saving NOTHING. A$shole.

what are calculations for child support? It is usually a strict percentage.

if you have any education, the judge (at least in my experience with courts) will look at what you are most likely able to make (not neccessarily what you DO make) to divide other areas...

so for example, I am a teacher with a masters degree...my current salary is $36,000. However, in MN (where I live) with my experience and degree I COULD be making 55,000 so that figure will get used

SAHM get sort of screwed in the whole scenario. You are lucky to be getting SS...it is usually not awarded here no matter how long you have been together and if it is, it is awarded for a very short time (like a year) in order for the SAHP to get on their feet.

I get $440 a month for two kids...and he owes over $60,000 in back child support. Fun times

Originally Posted By: Train

I will check into all those things, Starsky. Thank you.

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but you would have socked away $1200/mo for 4-12 months

Correction: I WOULD have been able to save that ... if H didn't just cut his support by $1,300/month. Now, I'll be saving NOTHING. A$shole.

You're going to have to get you and your kids to a place where you can carry a safe, clean, preferably in S7's current school district home or apartment rental -- plus your other monthly expenses -- for $2000 - $2500/mo, yes? (whatever SS + CS you get from your H, plus the net of what you're able to earn after paying for your younger child's daycare expenses)?

As part of any D paperwork, the lawyers will have you each put together monthly income and expense budgets. Even if it's more like $900/mo. instead of $1225/mo. that you can swing for a rental, you can be socking that money away every month by "squatting" in the current home, waiting for the foreclosure process to play itself out and catch up to your husband (and by extension, his "tenants" -- YOU). That's still $10,000 in one year you could squirrel away.

figgeroni,

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what are calculations for child support? It is usually a strict percentage.

if you have any education, the judge (at least in my experience with courts) will look at what you are most likely able to make (not neccessarily what you DO make) to divide other areas...

L calculated anywhere from $1,250 to $1,600 for CS, monthly

I have a bachelor's degree. But since I've been a SAHM for nearly eight years, he can - to be "fair" - plug in minimum wage for me. Technically in NC, moms aren't "required" to factor in income until their youngest child is three, apparently. But my youngest DD will be three in June, so we're plugging in a minimum-wage job for me "just to be fair."

Starsky,

The problem is that we live essentially paycheck to paycheck. His first job wasn't enough to pay the mortgage plus bills plus groceries. That's why H had to find a second job. He does not share that second-job income with me. So, I've been living off of his income from his first job, which NEVER paid all the bills. Therefore, even with all the income from that first job, I could never pay the mortgage plus utilities plus groceries. So now that he's pulled $1,300/month - which is even MORE than our mortgage payment - I will not be able to save a DIME. In fact, not only can I NOT pay mortgage now, but he's eating into another $80 of utilities/grocery money by withholding $1,300/month.

Does that make sense? I will not be saving SQUAT by squatting here now.

Originally Posted By: Train

Does that make sense? I will not be saving SQUAT by squatting here now.

Mathematically maybe it does, at least at the current numbers, but more broadly -- no, it doesn't. You will have to pay SOMETHING, SOMEWHERE for either rent or mortgage. Either this house at its current mortgage payment, this house refinanced or a rental. Between whatever final settlement you reach with your husband and whatever income you end up making in whatever job -- the two of you need to co-parent and come up with a safe shelter for your children.

I'm saying begin putting that plan and budget together now, and using your husband's foolish nonchalance about the mortgage that is in his name -- by NOT PAYING IT -- as a way to transition to the new plan.

Either your husband's proposed contribution going forward is fair and reasonable, as your attorney says, or it's not. It either allows you a reasonable plan for that contribution, plus what income you can reasonably expect to make, to add up to a plan whereby you can provide food, clothing and shelter for your kids . . . or it doesn't. In which case it's time to get a better lawyer.

Starsky

H picked up the kids yesterday for his afternoon with them. He was a complete jerk, as expected. Though he had offered last weekend - when he was being friendly - to check my car out before I drive the kids 4.5 hours to the coast, when I asked him what more we needed to check yesterday than the oil (which the car burns soooo fast), he rattled off half-a-dozen things and then seriously chuckled. In his typical smarta$s tone, he said, "What? Do you need me to check it tomorrow?" I told him no because we'd be leaving too early for him to do it today.

And that was it.

Then, before he pulled out of the driveway, he called me to ask if he could buy the kids anything for the beach.

While he had the kids, I broke down and cried - only the third time since this nightmare started. It wasn't a sad cry. It was a mad cry. I lashed out. I cursed. My mom, bless her, just sat there and listened and nodded. I got it out of my system for another day .... or week. And I called my brother, and he walked me through checking and topping-off my own d*mn oil. And my brake fluid. And my power-steering fluid. And my coolant.

Then - and here's what's jaw-dropping - H dropped off the kids last night and was asking about what time we're leaving. I also told him what day we'd be home. He said: "What? Am I not invited to come down anymore?"

I had told him, before I went "dim" a couple weeks ago, that he could head down to join us for a couple days because I'd be taking away three of his days with the kids to go. I told him that his visit, if he made it, would actually give me a break from the kids after a full week of sun and sand. H, at that time, even mentioned "mommy and daddy going swimming" to S7. (Not to point out the obvious here, but he wasn't exactly referring to actual swimming; he can't even swim well.) But things have been different the past two weeks. I'm not communicating with him except for the kids. And then he pulled the financial rug out from under me yesterday, making me choose between paying bills and going on this trip. And - what? - he thinks hanging out together for a couple days at the beach is going to be comfortable?!?

Is he literally out of his mind???

I changed the subject to his bike race, because that's why he initially said he couldn't come down in the first place. He said he wasn't going to be racing now. And that's how I left it. I had NO idea what to say.

But, seriously, are these people freaking delusional?

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I'm saying begin putting that plan and budget together now, and using your husband's foolish nonchalance about the mortgage that is in his name -- by NOT PAYING IT -- as a way to transition to the new plan.

I follow you completely. This is my dilemma! I had been mulling this over since H left, trying to decide what to do. I'm usually pretty decisive. I will obviously come up with a plan soon, especially now that H has slashed his financial support. I've been anticipating he would, but I had no idea by how much. Now, at least I have something to work with.

My mom has offered to move in here ... or into a new place with us ... after her lease runs out in June. My dad died seven years ago, and she's lonely living by herself anyway. It's not ideal. But it makes sense, financially.

This is one of the things I was falling apart about yesterday: After I budgeted my utilities, groceries and health insurance (because it won't be long before H dumps me off that, too), I'm left with just over $400/month. That's what I have left for mortgage/rent. Assuming I can find a full-time minimum-wage job, I'd net - what? - $1,000 a month? Daycare for D2 would be around $700 a month. So I'd bring home $300 a month. And much of that would go to doctor's appointments because of the germs floating around daycare.

How much sense does it make for me to work to bring home $300/month? This is the very reason H and I decided it was smarter for me to stay home. I mean, I was making more than minimum wage at the newspaper ... but not THAT much more. The news industry doesn't pay much. And I've already been in touch with three different newspapers that are only hiring stringers right now.

I am also wrestling with S7, who has been homeschooled for three years. He is FREAKING OUT about going to school, no matter how much fun I tell him it's going to be.

I'll be spending more time on my budget while I'm at the beach. My sister will be there for a couple days, and she's always good at talking me through things.

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In which case it's time to get a better lawyer.

You and I think a lot alike sometimes. THIS is what I told my mom yesterday. If L thinks what H is giving me right now "might be reasonable," I think I'll be seeking a second opinion somewhere else.

Only having $400 left over (and I'm assuming this is after a pretty austere budget you put together for the other necessities) doesn't jibe with a long-term marriage, a SAHM, your husband's high income (from BOTH jobs, not just the one -- he doesn't get to shelter that 2nd out, it will all come out in the financial disclosures that the court will demand from both of you), and most jurisdictions' "lifestyle to which she and the kids are accustomed" standard.

Sorry, it just doesn't. The CS is the CS, but the SS needs to include a number like $1300 - $1500 per month for a safe, reasonably comfortable shelter for you and his children, preferably in S7's current school district. And frankly, a good bulldog family law atty would see that as an ultimate SETTLING point, not as his or her OPENING point.

The fact that your atty sees your husband's current offer -- if it indeed only frees up $400 for shelter for you and your children -- as "reasonable" is alarming to me.

I know this person is some sort of a family friend, but I seriously think you need to consider shopping for another atty. A BULLDOG. You may have to front the retainer somehow, but your H would very likely have to reimburse you for it as part of any settlement.

Starsky, who's not a lawyer but I did go thru this once and I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express once

Yes, yes and yes. I completely agree.

L said his partner deals more in family law, and he consulted with him about the spousal-support issue, asking him specifically what the courts seem to be awarding these days. He said his partner is guessing I'd be awarded only *$500 a month* in spousal support??? But, again, they acknowledge it's alllll "a crap shoot."

L has stuck to his guns with our numbers ($1,600 for CS and $1,000 for SS), even telling H to go find his own L to run the numbers past him/her, so it shocks me that $600 less than what we asked for "might be reasonable." I don't see a way I can come down from $2,600. And that would STILL only leave me with $1,000 a month for a place to live.

Now, let me say this: my utilities - especially power/natural gas - are super-high in this old house. Moving somewhere more energy-efficient will likely save me at least $150/month. And my DD16&17 both have jobs and might have to start pulling some weight on their own, like paying their portion of the cell-phone bill. They already pay their own car insurance.

So there are avenues to whittle down the budget a little, to be sure. But there's not A TON of wiggle room there.

Again, I can have my mom as a roommate, which would likely even enable me to continue staying home with the kids. So that's at least one option. And I've been offered a freelancing gig, but that wouldn't contribute a whole lot. I also have creative talents - I have FOUR sewing machines (lol) - that people literally line up to utilize, and that has brought in extra income in the past. I stopped most of that late last year so I could focus more on my son's school work. I could pick those things back up, even though I've had NO motivation to do anything since H left. But desperate times call for desperate measures.

I have a friend who has a house that will come open for rent in June. At this point, I'm wondering if I should "squat," considering I'm not going to be saving a whole heck of a lot of money in the meantime, or if I should jump on that house when it opens. That's been in the back of my mind, too. And the rent there is $1,000, but they said they'd knock that down a little for me. Problem is: it's only 3 BR, so I wouldn't have space to move my mom in. In fact, the kids and I would be squished like sardines in a 3 BR. THAT would be the advantage of staying in THIS house ... because it has a bonus room downstairs and 3.5 BRs upstairs. My mom has already been staying here some to help with the kids, so I know we'd have room for her to stay here. But, again, she can't start helping with bills until June because she has her OWN expenses. By June, I'll be behind in mortgage payments by two months.

These are the thoughts that have been muddying my mind for 2 months now. And I keep bouncing back and forth on what's best for the kids and me.

Originally Posted By: Train

Yes, yes and yes. I completely agree.

L said his partner deals more in family law, and he consulted with him about the spousal-support issue, asking him specifically what the courts seem to be awarding these days. He said his partner is guessing I'd be awarded only *$500 a month* in spousal support??? But, again, they acknowledge it's alllll "a crap shoot."

My guess is that his partner isn't aware that your husband will not be continuing the pay the mortgage as part of that ^^^. He may be thinking of a "spousal stipend" sort of thing, alimony beyond the CS and the basic household living expenses?

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My guess is that his partner isn't aware that your husband will not be continuing the pay the mortgage as part of that ^^^.

Unfortunately, the CS figure includes his share of the kids mortgage. I'm just thinking I'd rather go ahead and take it to court than to try to "settle" outside of court. I think I'll take my chances with a judge - you know, give him the basics: H abandoned our M and family for OW. I have been a SAHM for 7.5 years.

The circumstances aren't pretty and, IMO, aren't favorable to H. And L even said he thinks a judge would award me the "maximum amount possible," especially considering the crude circumstances.

We will see what H's L pitches. But I don't see us agreeing. And I don't see me settling. Not this time.

***

H got ANOTHER one of my days started with ANOTHER of his screw-ups. He started his own bank account and locked me out of being able to check the joint one online. In his paranoia, he did the very same thing about a month ago and then went through the steps to fix it. This time, he told me - in no uncertain terms - that he "just went through this last month," so I'd need to fix his screw-up myself. While I'm at the beach with the kids. And he's home by himself.

I swear, looking back, I feel like my ENTIRE marriage has been me cleaning up his messes, beginning with the birth of his and his mistresses' child in 2006 ... two months after I birthed S7. I stood beside that ba$tard while he took $750 a month out of the mouth of our son to give to her in CS. I stood by him, and fought beside him, while he paid that for SEVEN YEARS.

H signed over his paternal rights to his DD a little over a year ago; she was adopted by OW#1's new H.

So, yeah, as soon as the "consequences" of his first screw-up were "paid," he starts all over, ditching me ... again.

I hate him SO badly right now ...

I just want out from under him. Yesterday.

Vent over.

Calling all vets: I'm going to have some questions later this week about how to state boundaries. I know how to set them, but I have no practice in STATING them. I usually just set them without saying anything.

But for now, I'm too busy enjoying my view of a beautiful ocean. H wants me to be as miserable as he is. But he can wait a week.

Originally Posted By: Train

I swear, looking back, I feel like my ENTIRE marriage has been me cleaning up his messes, beginning with the birth of his and his mistresses' child in 2006 ... two months after I birthed S7. I stood beside that ba$tard while he took $750 a month out of the mouth of our son to give to her in CS. I stood by him, and fought beside him, while he paid that for SEVEN YEARS.

Wow . . . how'd I miss THAT little gem in your backstory???

Whoo boy.

Starsky

My story was longgggg. Easy to miss a detail here and there.

THAT little gem is why I honestly can't understand why H has done this again. Even if I didn't perfectly or fully fulfill his essential needs the past 7.5 years, I deserved better than this ... again.

Forgiveness was hard the first time. Not sure it's even possible again.

The ONLY reason I have considered trying is because my family matters to me. And I feel H and I never addressed what happened the first time. So I have no idea if the issue is one about unmet needs, miscommunication or a personality/mental disorder. Or if it's just his character and I "missed" that during all the rest of our 12 years together.

I just don't know.

What an awesome day on the beach with my kids! For the first time since we've been here, the sun was fully shining, and the temperatures were warm enough to soak up some rays ... and for this momma to drink a few cold ones in the sand. Yay!

H texted this morning, asking how things were going. I replied: "going great." Then he said he hasn't "bothered" to call the kids because every time he calls, it's always "f'd up with background noise and commotion." (That "background noise and commotion" would be other happy kids ... you know, things that would have made him happy three months ago ...) He ended that text with: "and now you say your phone is screwed." (That's the result of a text I sent Saturday night to tell him to call D17 if he couldn't get in touch with me for S7 and D2 because I jumped in the ocean late that night with my phone in my pocket, but I told him even then that the phone would eventually be fine ... I was just having volume issues with it.)

Anyway, I just replied: "Phone's a-ok now."

Later, he texted asking for photos of "all the beach bums." So I sent him a couple pictures of S7 and D2.

And that's that.

He had texted a couple days ago, asking if I was drinking beer under an umbrella on the beach ... something he and I used to enjoy doing. I'm just sending back short, but polite, texts if/when - but ONLY if/when - he asks a question. He's not texting often. Maybe 2-3 times a day, if at all.

I DID get hit on Saturday night in the condo bar. It's not a bar, per se. I mean, it IS. But kids are welcome, and karaoke was Saturday night. My sister and I - along with several of our kids - had a BALL! This handsome man was in there, also with his son. Before he left, he approached me and asked me if he could tell me something without offending me. I said sure. He said, "You are a very attractive woman ... (insert blah blah blah things here) .."

I said thanks, looked down at his finger and BOOM! Noticed the ring. I just shook my head. It sank me for a minute, realizing that maybe all men are pigs. Then I remembered this very board and thought: Nah. There are a few good men out there. Unfortunately, y'all are strangers. Oh, and HAPPILY MARRIED.

***

On boundaries ...

As I mentioned in a prior post, I usually don't EXPRESS boundaries. Right or wrong, I just decide in my mind what my boundaries are, and I tailor my behavior, actions and attitude to enforce said boundaries.

But one boundary I need to set for ME is that H - if he's ever in my presence - does not text OW. I feel it's incredibly distasteful and disrespectful for him to do this. (I know, I know. *MY* H? Distasteful and disrespectful? Say it ain't so!!)

This would be a newly-stated boundary for me. (I would also like to set a boundary that he does not text the wh0re while with our children, but I know - with us living separate - I can't enforce that, so it's dumb to try to set that.)

But let's say, for instance, H is in our/my home after I have stated my boundary. And let's assume he starts texting. First, how do I know if he's texting HER and not someone else? How do I handle it if he IS texting her? I can ask him to leave. And he can say no. How do I enforce a boundary like that once I've stated it?

He's not in the house much these days, and I imagine his time around me will dwindle even more now that I've distanced myself more and he's responded by being a complete douchebag and pulling the financial carpet out from under me.

But how do I state my boundary? WHEN do I state it? And how do I handle enforcing it?

Let me be fair and give credit where credit is due: I have noticed, in any interactions recently, that he has not been on his phone, which is different than how he was being at first. Those two Sundays that he spent with the kids at our house? He was texting her while sitting on the couch beside ME, watching TV. The past couple times I've seen him, he hasn't even been on his phone. OR, if he's been on his phone, he always makes a comment about a friend/coworker ... *seemingly* to let me know that's who he was talking to (and not OW).

BUT, I'm concerned that H is going to be in touch about potentially spending the weekend here since that's something I had mentioned to him a month ago; as I've posted before, I told him then that he could spend the weekend here in exchange for me taking three of his days to bring the kids here for over a week. Since I told him that, though, I've gone "dim." And he responded by pulling back his financial support by $1,300/month. I don't want him here. I don't want to be around him. But even on Thursday, when he dropped the kids off, he asked, "Am I not invited anymore?" I didn't exactly answer, which was stupid. But I hadn't prepared for a response, because I just assumed he'd KNOW - considering the tension between us - that I wouldn't want to be around him.

I think, through my non-response, he got the point. So I can't imagine he'll want to come here. I also CANNOT IMAGINE that OW would be okay with him spending the weekend here. But he's full of surprises lately, and he knows exactly where I am because it's my sister's place, and we've been here several times as a married couple.

So, if I can't hold him off, and if he ends up here, how would I set the boundary about no-contact with OW for two full days? How could I state that boundary BEFORE he comes (IF he comes and gives me warning)? Chances are: If I state it correctly, he's not going to agree to it, and THAT is exactly what will keep him away if he asks me about coming down.

Anyone out there with experience? .... Starsky? ... Lol.

And also: What's up with my girlfriends saying I'm being "too nice" to H because I refuse to engage him? He says something stupid and mean, and I reply: "Okay thanks," or something to that nature. I'm trying to be like water, letting everything - the good, the bad, the ugly - roll off my back. I guess most people expect to see me fight things out? Fight fire with fire? *AM* I being too nice by generally ignoring his crap comments???

Also, while giving credit, I should add: H texted me while I was on the way down, saying, "Let me know when you arrive so I know you're all safe."

That was nice. Considering how much of a d!ck he's been lately, I would have expected a text that said: "Let me know when you arrive so I know S7 and D2 are safe."

Update - CRAP! Where are y'all when I need you? Lol! - but please read the last two posts for some context ....

Just as I feared (but not THIS soon), I got THE text tonight about H coming to the beach ...

But first, out of the blue, he texts, saying his work at his second-shift job has stopped for now because of miscommunication. Long story. It's happened before, and I FLIPPED when H and I were still together, and he was working there and not getting paid ...

So tonight, he texted: "Lost work again at (name of business)."

I replied: "I'm sorry. What happened?"

He wrote back, telling me about the miscommunication and said, "Don't worry. Not gonna pull money from ya, my L told me to stick with what I'm doing now, for now. I wouldn't f--- you like that or the kids."

It took me 30 minutes to re-gain my composure before I replied: "I'm sure it will work out, as it always seems to. As for the kids and me, thank you. I'm learning, ever so slowly, that I can lead them through darn near anything. And we will be okay, no matter what, too. Everything will work out; stressing about it is pointless. For you at (name of business), too."

UGH! That was HARD! (And I'm still wondering if I'm being TOO "zen" in my responses when I really want to tie his balls in a knot and hang him from the ceiling?!???)

He replied: "Lol, I know." And then (UGH!!!!): "So are you still in the same mindset as you were when you asked me if I wanted to come down there and spend time with the kids, as you are now?"

I replied: "Still in the same mindset? What do you mean?"

He wrote: "I think when you asked me to come to the beach, that you thought there still might be a chance with us. But I think you're over that now, so, would it be really weird for me to come down there?"

I cringed, took 20 minutes to re-center, and wrote: "My intentions in asking if you wanted to come down here were to offer you a chance to spend time with the kids. It really has nothing to do with me or with 'us'."

He replied: "Ok, cool, is offer still on then?"

And I said: "Sure. When do you think you might head down?"

He JUST responded: "Possibly Fri. , definitely Sat. afternoon. You sure that's cool?"

And I replied: "Yes. It might be awkward, but it would be for the kids. We can come up with some 'ground rules,' to make it work for all of us. But I trust, together, we can make it work for them."

And he replied, "Yup."

I hate myself right now. I regret asking him in the first place. He's right: I DID think there was still a chance for us to be together when I offered for him to come down for the weekend.

But NOW? Now, I feel differently. I feel strong ... but I feel I COULD be weak. Does that make sense? I'm in a good place, but I think it's because I've held him away for a couple weeks. The "old me" wants him to spend some time away from work, relaxing with the kids (and, yes, me - though I feel desperate and stupid for even admitting that now). That's who I was before I honestly understood - like, REALLY understood - he fired me as his wife. The "new me" - the one who was fired as a wife for OW and totally gets that now - wants to move on and not have anything to do with him. And I still believe he needs to feel the consequences of his choices (though I fully understand I'm not the one who can make that happen), and he'll never feel the blow of his choices until I'm totally out of the picture.

So I'll stand by my word to allow him to come down here and spend a day or two with the kids. But I need immediate help on how - and WHEN - to drop the boundary about him not texting OW while he's here.

And that could change the entire "ball game."

I had a short chat with S7 tonight about his dad spending a couple days here. I (enthusiastically) said: "Daddy's talking about coming down here for a couple days this weekend; you cool with that?" And he said: "I'd like that, but I don't want him texting OW while he's here. I just want him to play with us and not be texting her." D17 said the very same thing during the conversation.

So, what do I do? I don't want H to think *I* am being jealous and controlling by dropping that boundary. But I've heard my kids, and I know how *I* feel, too. And I think, out of respect for our family, H should refrain from texting OW while he's here. Though I think that should be a given, I think it's something I'll have to address with him, unfortunately, because he's as selfish and self-absorbed as the day is long.

So give me some ideas, guys. I know you have them ...

I've found it helpful to say to the kids "I don't control your dad" and then I try not to. When my kids tell me something bothers them, I let them know that they need to talk to their father directly and not through me. That's healthier for everyone in the long run. That being said, I also can't stand to be around him while he texts her, so I'm keeping him at arms length for my own sanity!

Originally Posted By: Train

On boundaries ...

As I mentioned in a prior post, I usually don't EXPRESS boundaries. Right or wrong, I just decide in my mind what my boundaries are, and I tailor my behavior, actions and attitude to enforce said boundaries.

But one boundary I need to set for ME is that H - if he's ever in my presence - does not text OW. I feel it's incredibly distasteful and disrespectful for him to do this.

. . .

But let's say, for instance, H is in our/my home after I have stated my boundary. And let's assume he starts texting. First, how do I know if he's texting HER and not someone else? How do I handle it if he IS texting her? I can ask him to leave. And he can say no. How do I enforce a boundary like that once I've stated it?

How to originally state it:

"I know we both want what's best for the kids thru all of this, and I am thankful for that. In light of that, I have decided that going forward I would ask that you not text OW or call her from in front of them. They've both brought it up to ME as being very upsetting to them, and we need to help them thru all of this. I would also of course expect you not to text or call her from inside of our marital home, like you used to -- that's incredibly disrespectful to me, to our marriage and to our family."

How to enforce it if you walk in on him doing it, or if he does it in front of you:

"I certainly hope that's not your girlfriend you are texting." And then STAND there, looking at him. Do not leave the room, nor do anything to make HIM feel more comfortable. If he shows you that it's NOT, say "Good. I just wanted to make sure we were still clear on that." If you shows you that IS, or if he tries to dodge you, say "We've discussed this. I expect you to respect my boundaries when you're here, and take that outside." And then STAND there, and don't leave.

Starsky

Here's the link to an EXCELLENT thread on boundaries, by the late great Coach:

Coach, on Boundaries

RIP, old friend. You are sorely missed.

Starsky

Thanks for stopping by, FP!

Quote:

I've found it helpful to say to the kids "I don't control your dad" and then I try not to. When my kids tell me something bothers them, I let them know that they need to talk to their father directly and not through me.

Yep. I use this one A LOT with S7. But every time he tries to address his dad about something that bothers him - which is rare - S7 starts crying. I'm trying to work on this with him so he becomes a better communicator eventually.

Quote:

"I know we both want what's best for the kids thru all of this, and I am thankful for that. In light of that, I have decided that going forward I would ask that you not text OW or call her from in front of them. They've both brought it up to ME as being very upsetting to them, and we need to help them thru all of this. I would also of course expect you not to text or call her from inside of our marital home, like you used to -- that's incredibly disrespectful to me, to our marriage and to our family."

This is a gem, Starsky. Thank you.

Unfortunately, I'm going to have to handle this in a text instead of face-to-face to give him plenty of time to consider it before he drives 4 hours to the coast. I don't want to just bring it up out of the blue, but I DID mention "ground rules" in the texts last night. Hopefully an opportune time will present itself in the next few days. If not, I'll just throw it out there.

Originally Posted By: Train

Unfortunately, I'm going to have to handle this in a text instead of face-to-face to give him plenty of time to consider it before he drives 4 hours to the coast. I don't want to just bring it up out of the blue, but I DID mention "ground rules" in the texts last night. Hopefully an opportune time will present itself in the next few days. If not, I'll just throw it out there.

Yep -- I agree. But so long as you also do it again (but ONLY ONCE!) in person. He needs to see your resolve. Think "Mamabear."

I'm disappointed that you didn't lay this boundary earlier, as it would have been much stronger. I frequently get into debates around here with posters who mistakenly say "The best time to lay a boundary is when you're ready," instead of the proper strategy of "The best time to lay a boundary is EARLY -- as early as possible." This is because:

1. Boundaries are for YOU, and it will help you get thru your sitch if your wayward spouse learns to respect your boundaries;

2. Boundaries are healthier for your KIDS.

3. Clearly laying -- and learning to enforce -- boundaries builds RESPECT, and therefore ATTRACTION.

You do it later, and it can seem "coached," or -- worse -- even as some sort of pursuing tactic. When properly laid at the outset, it sends a clear message of "These are my core boundaries of personal integrity. Do not cross them if you want to be around me."

Starsky

Quote:

I'm disappointed that you didn't lay this boundary earlier, as it would have been much stronger.

You and me both. This is going to be all over the place, but try to follow along, knowing you're reading the inner workings of a very confused mind:

To be honest, I lived that first month or so in complete shock. I'm not sure I'm completely out from under that yet. But I'm not waffling near as much as I was right after BD. Remember: I'm the one who was still letting my H touch me - thinking it was "progress" - in the beginning, even though he would still sit there and text OW. Silly, stupid me.

I was one of those people who couldn't reconcile DB with firm boundaries, and I waffled badly at first. I've only recently discovered that those two can't exactly BE reconciled; it was you and HS who pointed that out to me initially. So, essentially, I was being a doormat the first six weeks, thinking it was progress when H texted me "just because," and when he wanted to hang out and talk on the back patio over a beer. I totally ignored the OW and his relationship with her. I STILL feel like a doormat because no matter how mean or crude he's being, I'm still trying to stay cool-tempered and level-headed instead of losing my sh!t. I haven't lost my shi!t with him since I kicked him out. And I lost it BAD that night ... and the night I found the texts.

H said in a text last night: "I think when you asked me to come to the beach, that you thought there still might be a chance with us. But I think you're over that now ..." When I allowed myself to feel the kick in the gut that caused, and then spent a minute mulling it over, it occurred to me that maybe even my unspoken boundaries - and certainly my "pulling back" - are at least having SOMEWHAT of an effect. To be truthful, I'm just ignoring him AND his comments. Staying quiet. Because I'm confused as hell about what to do or how to respond. I'm still in a fog, but I'm coming out. I haven't had a conversation with H about what happened in our M. Not one. I haven't had an opening to state many boundaries now that I feel I know better what I want and need.

In other words, and overall, Starsky, I've honestly sat back, quietly, and let him run all over me. That's just me being brutally honest. I've been trying to be mellow in my interactions with him, in spite of him being a turd so many times. And I feel that has made me a doormat. I've gone "dim" the past few weeks to give MYSELF time to heal and figure out what I want and what I NEED. I think I've obviously confused him in doing so. But I needed it for me. And now, I'm READY to come out and set some boundaries for ME in this "new normal" life.

I hope setting - and verbalizing - boundaries is better late than never.

All that said, help me figure out how to make up for lost time? Help me reclaim MY power. Tell me how I can do this now that two months have passed ...

I've been using all actions and NO words. Perhaps it's time to use words, too?

Originally Posted By: Train

I hope setting - and verbalizing - boundaries is better late than never.

It is. Far, far better. And because it DOESN'T come naturally to you, and you don't have a track record of setting them with him . . . they might be that much more attention-getting.

Quote:

It is. Far, far better. And because it DOESN'T come naturally to you, and you don't have a track record of setting them with him . . . they might be that much more attention-getting.

Okay. I have been avoiding conversations with him completely, Starsky, thinking that's what I was SUPPOSED to be doing. I've been looking at ALL this as a "method." And I've left ME - and REAL LIFE - out of it. I haven't stood up for myself. I know that might not make sense. It doesn't even to me. I've just been a freaking robot, trying to tailor cool responses to him when he texts. I have not initiated ONE conversation even remotely related to our relationship because I thought that would be "pursuing." Verbalizing boundaries about ANY relationship with him, in my mind, has been a no-no because I haven't wanted to talk about our relationship. It's so backwards of me, and I know it. I've been GAL, and I think that has maintained some level of attractiveness. But I want and need and deserve more than to be attractive because I LOOK good. I need Train back! I'm a woman who's KNOWN for "not takin' no stuff." I need her back.

I KNOW I'm ready for something different now. I FEEL ready. And this time, it has NOTHING to do with "getting him back," because, frankly, I don't want him back. Not right now, anyway.

I'm thinking, since H has obviously noticed I've pulled away, that it could be a *natural* time to TELL him my new boundaries. And since *I* am feeling differently, I'm in a better place and feel confidant that I can actually STICK to the boundaries. I couldn't say that about myself a couple weeks ago. That has been the beauty of "going dim."

I'll think today about additional boundaries. And perhaps you can help me with them over the next few days ... and then we can come up with a way for me to drop them with H before - or once - he's here this weekend. I'm not even opposed to e-mailing something to him before he heads down, especially since I told him there would be "ground rules" for his visit. I haven't e-mailed him yet. Lol. I seriously have not had one conversation. Not written one letter. I've just done nothing. Nothing.

Originally Posted By: Train

I have been avoiding conversations with him completely, Starsky, thinking that's what I was SUPPOSED to be doing. I've been looking at ALL this as a "method." And I've left ME - and REAL LIFE - out of it. I haven't stood up for myself. I know that might not make sense. It doesn't even to me. I've just been a freaking robot, trying to tailor cool responses to him when he texts. I have not initiated ONE conversation even remotely related to our relationship because I thought that would be "pursuing." Verbalizing boundaries about ANY relationship with him, in my mind, has been a no-no because I haven't wanted to talk about our relationship.

Then think of it as healthy boundaries you need to have in place in order to negotiate the healthy END to your relationship, or -- if things should change -- at least to help you navigate this current period that he has indicated that he wants a relationship with OW instead of with you.

You're thinking of boundaries as tactics. THEY'RE NOT. They're not even strategy. They are healthy markers, for YOU, and for your KIDS.

Yep. I think that's how I maybe HAVE been viewing them. But I know differently now.

Originally Posted By: Train

I'll think today about additional boundaries. And perhaps you can help me with them over the next few days ... and then we can come up with a way for me to drop them with H before - or once - he's here this weekend. I'm not even opposed to e-mailing something to him before he heads down, especially since I told him there would be "ground rules" for his visit. I haven't e-mailed him yet. Lol. I seriously have not had one conversation. Not written one letter. I've just done nothing. Nothing.

FYI, I am going to be out of pocket much of today and tomorrow, and then again Saturday and Sunday. I have to take the fetching Mrs. Starsky for her 50+ colonoscopy tomorrow, and so she begins prepping today, and I'll be watching our granddaughter and taking S16 to the dr., who's been puking since yesterday.

That enough bodily fluids for ya??

And then we're moving my wife's 92 year old parents in with us this weekend. Busy busy!!! I'll try to check in, but it may be spotty. Remember, when in doubt, it's "Hmmm; not sure how I feel about that anymore," or "I'm afraid it's not that simple now," or "Hmmm, I'll have to think about that and get back to you."

Starsky

Holy cow - busy, indeed! I hope everyone makes it through procedures and illnesses ... and big moves ... in tact! Two of mine just made it through the stomach bug a couple weeks ago; nooooo fun!

I'm going to spend some time writing a would-be e-mail to H. I'll post it here for feedback; I don't even know if writing it in the first place is a good idea. But I saw something the other day that said: "Texting is a brilliant way to miscommunicate how you feel and misinterpret what other people mean." I'm tired of communicating through texts.

And, yeah, I don't mind face-to-face. But I need to fire a warning-shot in case he has plans to come here and text OW all weekend; the beach always makes him, ummmm, "excited." Always has. So I'm sure he'll be feeling the urge to be in touch with her quite a bit.

A pre-visit letter would also help me stand firm on stated boundaries through the weekend, should he agree to my terms and visit here after reading the letter. It'd be nice to have them out and in writing.

Train,

As Puppy will be busy for a bit, I'll keep watch over ya!

Sure, you can post your draft email here for feedback, suggestions and input.

Yay!!!!!! Wonka, you rock - thanks!!

Train,

I'd submit that telling him who he can text comes off as control. A boundary is deciding for yourself that you don't want to be around that behavior and then not inviting him.

I've found it helpful to think of H as my ex and set my boundaries where I would have a right to set them with an ex. I can't tell him who he can text. I can't tell how to relate to his kids (except for situations where the law would care). If he is being disrespectful, I create happy spaces for me and my kids and he's not invited. If I already invited him, I bear it and make a different choice next time. I act as if I'm going on with my life. This has made him much kinder to me and the kids. When he saw that I was going to let him go it freaked him out and he started connections with the kids (mind reading here) because he didn't want to lose them too. By making a big deal out of the texting, you are showing him that you're right where he wants you.

I know it's tough to see S7 cry. That same issue is what drove me to the breaking point where I asked H to leave, but you have influence there. You can act as if with your children too. You can tell them that you love daddy enough to let him go if that's what he wants. You can tell them that you guys will be just fine and then GAL with them. It they're sad, just say I know this is hard on you, and give them a hug and a peaceful place to grieve.

Hugs,

FP

Originally Posted By: FindingPatience

Train,

I'd submit that telling him who he can text comes off as control. A boundary is deciding for yourself that you don't want to be around that behavior and then not inviting him.

I respectfully disagree, FP. A boundary is deciding for yourself how you will allow others to treat you. If he is in Train's presence -- either as a current H or an ex -- she has every right to decide how she will allow herself to be treated.

I'll use an example of an off-color racial joke. If Train's H told one in her presence, and she found it repugnant, she has every right to say "I don't find that funny, and I would appreciate it if you don't tell jokes like that in my presence. She shouldn't make HERself leave the room?

I agree with the rest of your post about treating a wayward spouse as an ex -- that's spot-on.

Starsky

I am in agreement with Puppy aka Starsky about the boundary setting requirement. Train, we're standing by ready to assist you with the draft.

Okay, I know when I'm outvoted. I'll follow along and learn.

Wonka-I read all of Raine's posts and I have a lot of respect for you. Train is in good hands.

Thank you all. I truly feel in my heart of hearts that setting that boundary is what's best for me and my peace of mind. I'm responsible for myself and my minor children. I am not responsible for my H or his responses to boundaries I put in place to protect my children and me.

This is my vacation with my children. The place I'm in belongs to my sister. She "paid" for it for my family for a week. I only invited H for a couple days to "pay him back" for letting me have three of his days with the kids. If he doesn't like the boundary, he does not have to come down here. Better for me, anyway.

I did get a danged text from someone a little while ago, saying H is at the grocery store where he met OW (where she is employed). Romantic dinner in Aisle 5, perhaps. Swoon.

I'll be posting my draft possibly later tonight and no later than tomorrow. Question: should I limit it to only my boundaries about his pending visit here? Or should I use it as a one-shot opportunity to say anything more, considering this is the first time I've taken time to address anything with him?

No matter what, I do not plan to be emotional. Or to whine.

... anddddd presumably as soon as he's done at the grocery store, I just now got this text:

"Good day at the beach, I hope???"

Gah. He really DOES want to have his cake and eat it, too, doesn't he?

Must be exhausting to have to keep up with two women ...

Ok. Sorry. That was a quick rant I needed to have before I focus on my boundaries.

Train,

Oh wait...didn't they meet at the bread aisle? Your bread or mine?

Woody Allen should make a movie about your H!

Only Woody can do this.

Question: should I limit it to only my boundaries about his pending visit here? Or should I use it as a one-shot opportunity to say anything more, considering this is the first time I've taken time to address anything with him?

Stick to one topic at a time when emailing H. You don't want to cause more confusion here.

Please do draft to your heart's content and post here for feedback. The best way to do this is to keep with KISS and STFU principles. You would want to be sure it is clear and concise.

FYI...I will be away all day tomorrow so won't be able to check in during the day. Will do so in the evening.

Wonka, thank you!

I really don't feel I have anything to tell him other than my boundaries for the trip. I think that's a big enough step for me, anyway, and it'll be enough for him to digest.

What does KISS stand for? I know STFU ... I presume.

Oh, and THIS made me lol:

Quote:

Oh wait...didn't they meet at the bread aisle? Your bread or mine?

Train,

KISS: Keep It Short and Simple

Okay...what would be your boundaries and how would you present it to H?

The more I'm thinking about it, the more I'm thinking I'll just stick to almost precisely what Starsky had stated.

I have already told H that I will not live in an open marriage; he can't have me *and* OW. So no need to rehash that. I've also already told him I will not discuss our relationship until he ends his A. (I no longer feel that one is a huge deal anyway; now that some time has passed, I'd be open to hearing him talk, but make no mistake, I won't be poking that bear!)

Here's what I have as a skeleton draft. But it could be perfect as is. As a writer, I tend to embellish TOO much at times. I don't necessarily want to come across as cold - and certainly not "coached" - but it seems placing a boundary might be a time when less is more ... or KISS.

Here's what I have drafted (thanks to Puppy/Starsky):

TrainMan,

The kids are excited that you're making plans to spend time with them here. I want the weekend to be enjoyable for all of us; thus the reason for setting the "ground rules" I mentioned the other day.

I know you and I both want what's best for the kids through everything, and I am thankful for that. In light of that, I'm going to ask that you not text OW or call her in front of the kids or me while you are here. D17 and S7 have both brought it up to me as being very upsetting to them.

I would also, of course, expect you not to text or otherwise communicate with her inside our family home like you have before. We need to help the kids through all of this. Communicating with her in front of us is disrespectful to me, to our marriage and to our family.

The kids said you're planning to head this way Friday. Keep us posted on your ETA that evening, and I'll have a parking pass waiting for you.

Safe travels,

Train

Train,

The draft is a good start. I'd re-work it and use less "I"s. And don't weaken it with "of course" or use other hedging statements. You'll need to state your boundaries from a position of power and courage. One last thing...please try to keep your kids out of this boundary setting. Don't want to pull them into this.

I'll give you an example of a boundary setting.

When I came to understand the extent of Ms. Wonka's affair with the OW, I very firmly told her that the OW cannot come near the house or inside our house. I was quite angry when I said this to Ms. Wonka. So Ms. Wonka arranged their rendezvous elsewhere.

I love how you vets don't "deny me the dignity of my own struggle," but - DANG! - this is HARD to figure out!

Quote:

When I came to understand the extent of Ms. Wonka's affair with the OW, I very firmly told her that the OW cannot come near the house or inside our house. I was quite angry when I said this to Ms. Wonka

Ugh. Yeah. Feel your pain. I read a text from H to OW that said: "I bet you'd get off to me f***king the sh!t outta you in Train's bed." I didn't set a boundary per se. I just flipped on him ... and changed the locks. And sent OW a text, telling her to keep her filthy mind out of my marital bed! They're seriously sick.

Okay, I'm down to this now:

TrainMan,

The kids are excited that you're making plans to spend time with them here this weekend.

Just one �ground rule� on this end:

While you're here, please do not text OW or call her in front of us. Beyond this weekend and going forward, please also do not text or otherwise communicate with her inside our family home like you have before. While we are still married � even while living apart � communicating with her in front of us is disrespectful to me, to our marriage and to our family.

S7 said you're planning to head this way Friday. Keep us posted on your ETA that evening, and I'll have a parking pass waiting for you.

Safe travels,

Train

Train,

The second draft was much better than the first...don't you agree?

The comment ^^ to Ms. Wonka took place almost 10 years ago. I am way past it now.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

TrainMan,

The kids are excited that you're making plans to spend time with them here this weekend.

Just one �ground rule� on this end:

While you're here, please do not text OW or call her in front of us or around us. Beyond this weekend and going forward from today and on, please also do not text or otherwise communicate with her inside our family home like you have before in the past. While we are still married � even while living apart � communicating with her in front of and around us is extremely disrespectful to me, to our marriage and to our family. If this occurs, you need to leave the house.

S7 said you're planning to head this way Friday. Keep us posted on your ETA that evening, and I'll have a parking pass waiting for you.

Safe travels,

Train
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Do you see how firm this sounds, Train? Also this clarifies the "not in front of us" part...which means he could very well think that he can do it around you, but not in front of you. This way, you make yourself abundantly clear to H what your boundary is...there's no wiggle room for H. Nor can he claim that he misunderstood or misinterpreted this in any shape, fashion, line, hooker..sinker!

Okay, okay. I'm feeling some backbone.

Quote:

Do you see how firm this sounds, Train?

Ummm, yes. It's definitely firm. Not much wiggle room there.

Question: when I say, "if this occurs, you'll need to leave the house" ... should I include, for this weekend's stay specifically, that if he cannot agree to the terms then he shouldn't come down?

Also ...

I'm not going to project here, but I can almost BET he's going to fire back with something like this (because it's his standard come-back: "Disrespectful to our marriage? We're not married anymore! I left you!"

Before, I've calmly stated: "We are still married. We are not even legally separated yet."

But what's a better way to respond to that, in your opinion?

Question: when I say, "if this occurs, you'll need to leave the house" ... should I include, for this weekend's stay specifically, that if he cannot agree to the terms then he shouldn't come down?

No. Why else do we have those boundaries in place if people are not given the chance to comply with them? The rest is up to H. Watch his actions.

Quote:

No. Why else do we have those boundaries in place if people are not given the chance to comply with them? The rest is up to H. Watch his actions.

You smart cookie, you.

Originally Posted By: Train

Also ...

I'm not going to project here, but I can almost BET he's going to fire back with something like this (because it's his standard come-back: "Disrespectful to our marriage? We're not married anymore! I left you!"

Before, I've calmly stated: "We are still married. We are not even legally separated yet."

But what's a better way to respond to that, in your opinion?

You're borrowing trouble and imagining things that are not even taking place nor has happened at all. Sit tight and watch.

I'd sleep on this tonight and take a look at the final email draft before hitting the "send" button.

Oh, you and Starsky and your keeping-me-on-the-straight-and-narrow!

How I love the accountability!

I will definitely sleep on it and might even give it through tomorrow afternoon before I send. THANK YOU for your help, Wonka!

Glad to be of support here, Train baby!

I wish there was a heart emoji, Wonka.

One simple question - all semantics - this morning:

Instead of dignifying OW by referring to her by name the one time I do in the letter, would it come across as petty for me to call her "your mistress" ... or "your girlfriend" ... instead?

I always advise "girlfriend" or "boyfriend." "Mistress" is too confrontational, their first name gives them too much respect, and "paramour" is just plain gross.

Besides, "The Predator" would probably just start a fight.

Starsky

Asking what my "real plan" is suggests I'm being dishonest.

But to answer your question, I'm interested only in setting a boundary.

Why did *you* not refer to your H's OW by name? For me, it dignifies her. That might not make much sense. But in these situations, things aren't always logical. Emotions rule. But that's why many of us are here, yes? For support. This place gives me an area to come to where people will help. I can ask simple questions, and others draw on their experiences to provide support and answers. Preferably without being snarky or judgmental.

I will refer to her by name. Thanks for dropping by, gabbysmom.

Starsky, I adore you, man. Really.

Hope everything's going well with the family ... all of 'em.

Yeah, we have our own name for OW in our house, too. Only one vowel changed turns her name into something more appropriate for her. And it's even PG-rated so S7 calls her that, too. H laughs about it, but I know it chaps his as$ to hear it.

Point well taken in that last paragraph, gabbysmom.

"Your girlfriend" it is.

Thanks, guys!

Well, I sent it. And he replied: "Probably heading down Saturday morning."

That's it.

Wait. A second response ...

"K, got the ground rules. No problem."

Andddddd now he's flipping out in texts because he's apparently found a new house to move into and is discovering (?) that all our utilities at our marital home (where I still live) are in his name. He's asking for my social security number for "forms." That should be easy enough to find; he had to have used it to file taxes this year.

So how helpful should I be? I'm here, at the beach, trying to relax with my kids, and he keeps texting with questions about crap from home. What a downer! Should I even respond right now? I don't want to deal with that crap right now!

EXCEPT ... D16 is at the family home this week. If H turns off power and gas there to be able to open a new account in his name at his new place, then D16 will be, well, without power and gas the rest of the week.

Okay, I've been trying to keep my cool for so long that I'm second-guessing just being ME for once. I don't want to hand over my power, but I feel I'm losing my cool composure today.

Finally texted H back during lunch and said: "Let me know once it's straightened out and if you plan to shut off service to the house since D16 is there this week."

He replied: "What!!! Naw, already told you that's not what I'm doing silly! I'm trying to get service to my new apartment, and filling out info online. They say I already have an account. So I got in that, but since you are an admin, they asked for your SS#."

I replied (without my filter): "You've pulled the rug out from under our family as quickly as I've changed my underwear the past couple months, so pardon my skepticism. Didn't you use my SS# to file taxes this year? I'm assuming you somehow got my signature, too."

Those would be the taxes he filed - claiming my two Ds (his SDs) - and refuses to share any of the money except/unless I "bring him legit legal bills" that he says he'll pay. Yes, that'll be settled in court eventually so that I get half. But it still burns me up.

I'm feeling I just got down in the muck with snarky responses. I'm just OVER him texting me. The only way he can even afford his own place is because he pulled $1,300 from the kids and me every month, making it IMPOSSIBLE for *us* to afford a place to live!!! Do I want to "help" him with that? Hel! no! I'm OVER being so dang quiet in my responses! Yet, I can't find middle ground!! I don't want to be reactive in my responses. But I'm mentally too darn tired to figure out how to be creative.

... just like every other time, when it rains information, it pours.

Just got a text from a friend. OH said in front of her today that OW has to be out of their home on Friday.

I'm projecting, but that's likely why:

1. H isn't heading to the beach until Saturday now, and
2. H is so hurried about his own place and utilities.

It's none of my business per se. Except he has visitation with our kids. I have no legal separation order. And I don't want the kids around her. And since there is no legal order in place for now, I could legally keep the kids away from his new home.

I know a stipulation can be added in the order that no overnights will be allowed with a person of the opposite sex in the home until/unless H is married. Anyone out there with experience with kids and OP in the same home with just day-time visitation?

I know I'll have to make peace with this eventually. But I'm not ready to right now. Especially while we are still legally married.

No experience with the legal aspect just the emotional one and it [censored]. I try and pretend that she has no interaction with my kids, even though I know she does. Extra prayers for you and your kids!

Well, for TODAY, it looks like H and OW are not moving in together. He has his own place. I'm not sure about her. I still think they have something up their sleeve, but I asked H today point-blank if they were moving in together and how he planned to keep our kids separate from her if they are. He said they're not moving in together now and sent a text saying: "Lol. Remember, I'm still legally married."

I had about 15 epic comebacks for that - I'm sure y'all do, too - but I just didn't respond.

It didn't deserve a response.

Back to the surf and sand. I will NOT let him ruin my time here. Came dang close today. But no cigar.

Attagirl.

I. needed. that. today, Starsky. Very much. Thank you.

We're not supposed to put links on here, so SUE me, but I think you'll like this. It reminded me of you, Train:

You're an Overcomer

Starsky, I'm sitting in a hot tub, with a glass of wine. I checked in and listened to that link. And I'm gonna blame that tear on a bubble splashing up on my face ... or on the wine.

Thank you so much, dear friend. You are sincerely a godsend. Thank you.

Oh boy. I step away for a few (more?) days and BLAM! Lots going on!

There's waaaayyy too much to respond to directly, and it looks like Starsky and others have had you covered.

Please remember that you H is walking into YOUR safe ground. YOU have been a faithful and responsible wife. You have no reason- NONE AT ALL- to keep your head anything but high. Since your H is coming down (I'm sure OW is thrilled about that), take advantage and go out without him while he sits with the kids at night. He should know, if he does not already, that you will be just fine without him. The question is, do you realize that yet too?

I have read the increased anguish in your "voice" (at least the one I use in my head when I read your posts) and I can tell you are at your limit. Part of going dark is to preserve what feelings you have left for your H. By keeping contact, your "love bank" balance is dropping fast. You will find yourself left with only contempt if you don't protect yourself from contact with him.... We'll see how the weekend unfolds.

I'm sorry that your vacation has been tainted this way. I know its no comfort right now, but your H will come to regret this one day. I'm in the Charlotte area frequently for work- I'd love to visit this OWs grocery store to see what she looks like - I'm sure she's a mess

. Hang in there!

HS

Hey, HS! I am so happy to hear from you!

take advantage and go out without him while he sits with the kids at night.
Yes! That's actually the plan. I told him that him being here would give me some "me" time after being with the kids all week. I'll likely go to the condo bar for karaoke again Saturday night while he's hanging with the kids.

He should know, if he does not already, that you will be just fine without him. The question is, do you realize that yet too?
I think I realize that I will be fine, emotionally, one day. I'm not quite there yet. Finding out yesterday that even a friend's boss knows about the A - and he was openly talking to her about it yesterday - sent me into a temporary tailspin. I'm humiliated, though I know I shouldn't be. There's a part of me that wants to write a blog post, or a Facebook post, and just tell everybody I know - and then some people - about the A and how I'm separated from my H. I mean, it IS shocking people to see him hanging out with OW in public ... in my town. It's so disrespectful. But I digress ...

I know I'll be fine emotionally.

Financially? That's the one that's getting me right now ...

Part of going dark is to preserve what feelings you have left for your H.
I know this sounds awful - and it flies in the face of the entire reason for being here - but there's part of me that's doing this on purpose, HS. I don't WANT to care for him, or love him, anymore. It hurts too bad.

I know its no comfort right now, but your H will come to regret this one day.
People keep telling me this, and I want to believe it. At the same time, I know he probably won't feel that regret until I've moved past WANTING him to, if that makes sense.

I'm in the Charlotte area frequently for work- I'd love to visit this OWs grocery store to see what she looks like - I'm sure she's a mess
Are you ever in the Lake Norman area? If you're ever headed this way for work, you let me know when, and we'll figure out a way to meet up in the parking lot! Then I'll treat you to coffee!

Train,

When you see H, be sure to have on one of your prettier Spring/Summer dresses and nice pair of shoes/sandals. Give him a taste of what he's missing! Then walk away without a backward glance. That'll give him something to think about.

Know what, Wonka? I didn't even bring one of those. You just gave me a reason to go shopping before Saturday!

I adore you guys.

Originally Posted By: Wonka

Train,

When you see H, be sure to have on one of your prettier Spring/Summer dresses and nice pair of shoes/sandals. Give him a taste of what he's missing! Then walk away without a backward glance. That'll give him something to think about.

Yep! Preferably something with about 1" more heel than he's accustomed to seeing on you!

Starsky

Hahahahaha! I'm already 5'9". I never wear heels. It always made me taller than H, and he hated that. All the more reason to wear 'em Saturday.

Sa-weeet.

A little mystique never hurt the ol' DBing. In fact, creating it is PART of DBing.

Starsky

Omg, y'all! I'd break my neck on 5"!!! Hahaha!!

Another tip...

tell all the people telling you stuff about H that you don't need to know

you don't need to know that he is seeing her or that she is getting kicked out...

all that does is give you stress...

you know all the info you need to know right now...

Yes, fig! That crap sends me in a downward spiral soooo fast ... and I really don't WANT to know! Ignorance, at this point in this case, truly is bliss.

I'm reading "Boundaries" by Drs. Henry Cloud and John Townsend. I'm guessing a lot of my relationships will change as a result of this period in my life. And I'll learn to be a bit more stern and straight-forward in expressing my boundaries without fear that I'll hurt others' feelings.

A good start would be to tell ANYONE I know that I don't want to hear about "sightings" or "developments" in H's relationship with OW. I need to assume people will be seeing them together. And they'll want to break their necks telling me about it.

So many people mistake my non-willingness to talk about my feelings as "strength." They think I'm "over" H. So they run to me to tell me anything, completely unaware of what it does to my heart to hear it.

I'm learning so many valuable lessons about the friend I will be to anyone I know who may eventually find themselves in these shoes.

oh don't give them that much credit.

many more people that we would like to imagine ENJOY telling us things about our lives that are less than perfect.

they enjoy the reaction and they keep prodding until they get one.

I have people that still will try to tell me something my ex is doing....I have been divorced for almost 8 years....I don't care what he is doing and in fact, don't think about him really until they bring him up. He is not the father of my children so I don't have to think about him.

it's like they want to see a big reaction

Well, yeah. Good points. But the people telling *me* are my friends! Lol.

Just random things like: "Omg! Just drove by the grocery store, and that POS is there!!"

Sometimes I think they just don't think about it.

Good luck today!

Thank you so much for thinking of me, HS!

I haven't had a moment to sit down to journal, so this is going to be long. I'm going to need some immediate guidance, so please stick with me here. I'm seeing indications that H MIGHT be thinking of reconciling *eventually*. It could also be lip-service, but I don't think so. So, yeah, hang tight ...

First, I had a marvelous time with my kids at the beach. It was beyond perfect. It was so perfect that when I left yesterday, I cried. And I cried the whole ride home. And I cried when I got home. And I cried pretty much until I fell asleep. I do not want to be here anymore. Not in this house, not in this town.

Am I running away? Maybe. But I won't stay here and allow my nose to be rubbed in an affair. At first, I thought: This is MY town. They're not going to intimidate me! But now? They can have this town. And each other. And that's precisely what I told my H yesterday.

But let me backtrack a little to Saturday:

H came to the beach early that morning. He texted several times on his way ... pretty flirty stuff, which I sort of anticipated only because that's how he gets on trips to the beach. He stopped and got me Krispy Kreme "hot now" donuts - the way to my heart (ha) - and texted saying, "You pick a restaurant for tonight; I'm buying." I told him that wasn't necessary. He asked if I'd had seafood yet. I told him I had; my sister had taken me out the previous Saturday. And H - who doesn't eat seafood - said, "Well then you're due. Pick a place. I'm not leaving until I've taken you. It's tradition."

We spent the entire day on the beach. H played with the little kids; we took turns watching D2 since I get really nervous with the kids around water. D17 was able to relax and read a book. H would play with the kids then come sit/stand by me. I had packed a big cooler of water, beer, juice and snacks. So we were drinking and mingling with people and playing and having a marvelous time. And later in the afternoon - after a few beers each (lol) - H and I started talking a little. Still didn't talk about our relationship. But we talked about relationships in general. I talked a little about some things I've learned since he's been gone - namely, about the needs of men and women. He laughed and said: "I expect they're completely opposite." And I said, yeah, they pretty much are. But if used correctly, they actually complement one another. But we had a fun conversation about it. We also talked a little about how we put the kids before our relationship. He said he thought that was the right thing to do. I told him I had thought so, too. But in trying to be so protective of them, look what we've done: their family is broken. So what good did it do us - or them? We should have remembered that they are *products* of our relationship. The relationship came first. And it should have stayed that way; keeping our relationship front-and-center would have been the best possible thing we could have provided our children.

We looked around and noticed all the families on the beach and both shared in confusion about how we never had money to take a family vacation. I was like: "Ya know, you work TWO jobs, and we still never took a vacation. How does someone make enough money to work one job and also take their family on a vacation?" He talked about how even now, when he has few responsibilities except for paying support, he's still working two jobs. And he indicated he's not happy. I told him I was also unhappy that he had told me, since we met, that he receives no vacation time. He has used that as an excuse. I said: "Your pay stubs show how many days of vacation you have, and you have never used them." He conceded to that. He has a tendency to be a work-a-holic.

I asked him how he felt about me dating once the separation order is finalized. He said he would be fine with it, suggesting that because of what *he* has done, he couldn't say anything about it anyway. He asked if I had anyone in mind. I told him no. He asked if I'd been asked out. I told him a couple men had mentioned they'd like to take me out, but that I had explained I didn't feel comfortable with it until I was at least legally separated and had talked to H about his feelings on it. Seems silly I'd ask a cheater if he minds if I date. But it's more for me, and who I want to be morally, than for him. He said he imagined any man who asked me out wouldn't understand my reasoning for waiting until the S is final. He said, "I bet they're saying: 'Why? Your H has treated you like a POS!"

It was a comfortable, relaxed conversation. I wasn't melting back in love with him by any stretch of the imagination. But I really enjoyed talking with him; it's something we haven't done in such a long time.

Once inside, however, he said something about us having sex and (referring, I suppose, to the conversation about the needs of men and women) added: "But remember, I'm a man. And that's all it would be."

And I. blew. a. freaking. gasket. Eyes wide open, I said: "Did you *seriously* just disrespect me like that? I have NEVER had a man tell me, to my face, that all he wanted was a piece of a$s!!" I walked out. He immediately followed me and apologized. But it changed my demeanor in a BIG way, and he took notice.

I *almost* changed my mind about dinner. Maybe I should have. But D17 was excited about the night out. I had already drank too much on the beach to be driving, so I made the call to go ahead and get dolled up and let H take us out. H mentioned to S7, several times, that he has a "hot mom." H was definitely digging the cute outfit and shoes!

He took us to a nice place, where D17 and I shared HUGE crab legs caught by the guys on Deadliest Catch; that was pretty awesome! We were all wanting to go hit the hot tub after dinner, but I was exhausted and had to start packing and cleaning. Much to D17's dismay, we all ended up crashing almost as soon as we were back at the condo.

The next morning, I awoke bright and early to finish packing and clean all the linens and towels. H and S7 slept in.

It occurred to me that I hadn't seen H with his phone all day on Saturday. But I heard him go in the bathroom Sunday morning, and I had a good feeling he was on his phone. I thought: Okay. He's in the bathroom and not in front of us. But he IS around us. And I just so happened to have clean towels to take into the bathroom. So, yeah, I busted right up in there (yes, with him sitting right there on the freaking toilet), and sure enough, he was on his phone. And I said: "I hope you're not communicating with your girlfriend." He said, "No. My dad just called. Listen!" And he played the voicemail. I walked out, shutting the door behind me. I shut D2 in there with him (poor thing) just so he'd be too on edge to be texting OW. Lol.

H then helped D17 pack the car.

I fully expected the distancing to begin - you know, "the day after" a nice, relaxing vacation day. So I put on my game face. I shed a couple tears leaving, which caught H off-guard because I don't cry often. He asked what was wrong. I told him I really didn't want to leave and go back home to have to deal with all his sh!t again. He looked a little sad FOR me and gave me a one-armed hug at the car.

He planned a side trip for him and the little kids, so he took them, and D17 rode home with me.

I was surprised to receive a couple pleasant texts from H while he was with the kids. He brought them home an hour or so after D17 and I returned home, and he hung around while D2 finished her nap in his car (... doors open with us sitting right beside her).

H, S7 and I were sitting at the patio table, talking about the house. I started sharing with H some of my potential plans, all of which include abandoning the house. S7 started crying, saying we have so many memories at this house. I was STILL crying here and there from leaving the beach, so I just kept my sunglasses on and let the tears keep falling. H was bent down, tying his shoes, for, like, 5 minutes. So I'm thinking he was probably getting a little teary-eyed, too. But I told S7 that his daddy and I BOTH have childhood homes with lots of memories. Just because we leave them doesn't mean we leave our memories. And I planned a field-trip for us today to my childhood homes to show him.

S7's birthday is coming up in just over a week, and H asked him if we're having a party. S7 said, "No. Momma can't afford a party this year." (Thank God my sunglasses were still on, even though the sun was hardly present in the sky at that point.) H said, "Buddy, you and Momma plan a party with your friends, and I'll get it covered."

Long, complicated story, but: H and I were talking about D16&17s school district and how I can maneuver keeping their address here through next June, when D16 will graduate, even if I move (because now I'm convinced I want to). H said I could use his address, which is inside the district, as long as he's living there. We talked about how much rent he's paying. He indicated - after I told him I planned to move away - he wasn't fully happy with where he's going to be. I told him I might stay with my sister at least over summer, if he wouldn't mind me taking the kids across the state line (she lives in SC, but it's only 45 minutes from where we live in NC). He told me, after talking to his L, that I should sit tight and wait to see how much financial support I'm going to get; it's sounding like his attorney is telling him it's likely more than he's providing now AND he'll likely have to continue paying my health insurance. But I told him I'm ready to leave here, even if that means keeping all my possessions in a storage unit. I told him D17 has said she would go to community college in SC instead of here, so she's on board to move, too. But I think it would be a more permanent move for her. For me? I'd look at it as temporary, even though I'd need to close my NC homeschool and open one in SC, which will be a pain. But I don't know where I'll eventually end up. I'll decide while I'm there this summer, if all goes as planned.

H offered to watch the kids while I showered. I took him up on that. By the time I came downstairs, D17 had asked H to go get her something to eat. So he went out to get dinner and milkshakes for everyone. When he got back home, he hung out for another 30 minutes or so, then said he needed to leave.

Remembering I had not thanked him for dinner, I shot him a text that said: "Thanks for dinner the past couple nights. Please don't mistake my weepy-ness for anything that's happened. I just really don't want to be here anymore. This week sealed the deal."
Him: "But now I'm afraid you'll take the babies far enough away that it will not make it convenient for me. Guess I deserve it though."
Me: "I wouldn't stay close for convenience for you, no. But I wouldn't move so far away to spite you, either."
Him: "On the other hand, I think it's awesome. I just wish we could've made that move a long time ago."
Before I saw THAT text, I wrote: "But I definitely don't plan to stay here. Don't give a sh!t about hearing of your car at OW's grocery store anymore. Don't want to hear from my high school friends anymore, asking why their employee is saying, yeah, she's f***ing my husband but he 'didn't want to have anything more to do with me anyway' ... Frankly, at first, I thought: f*** them. This is my town. But now? You can have this town. And you can have her. And she can have you."
Then, in response to his other text about wishing we could have made the move a long time ago, I responded: "I wish we could have, too. I just can't stay here anymore considering the circumstances."
Him: "D*mn, wow, obviously I'm going through that same kinda sh!t too. But he!l. If I knew you were wanting to move away, I'd prolly go back to PA or something. I mean, if lawyers say I get kids every other weekend, then what's the difference if I drive 20 minutes or 8 hours?"
"Wait. that don't make sense."
"Scratch that."
"F*** I don't know."
"I really don't plan to be tied down here to stay here, whether by a job or any girlfriend. I know what I've done is so f***ed, so I'm trying everything to AT LEAST keep the babies interested in their daddy, and not to lose hope. I think that me and D17 had a good couple days. But he!l, she'll be on her own soon."
We went back and forth a bit about him moving out of state ... and how he can't take the kids out of state. He wrote: "Yeah. You're right. I'll have to stay in NC ... Blahhh."
Then, I wrote, "I've realized this past week, though, that the world is my oyster. Won't take the kids too far away from you, I assure you. Their needs are my topmost priority. But I don't want to live here anymore."
Him: "Well since I've been gone from the house, I realized that also. And I think I've told you that I thought about coming back for them. I, too, don't really want to live here anymore."
Me: "What you told me is that if you came back, it would be 'out of convenience, like in 2005.' I think you're an amazing dad. I know you KNOW how amazing of a dad I think you are. But I'm also an amazing woman and mom. I've learned that recently, too. And I'm not a 'Plan B.' I have room for improvement in the 'wife' department - no doubt about it - but I deserve more than what you've given me - TWICE. I don't want a marriage based on convenience."
Him: "You're right. I wouldn't come back for 'convenience.' We'd prolly 'date,' I'd go to counseling, and then we'd get remarried in Vegas!!!! Lol."
Me: "I'd love to date you. I've told you that from the beginning. I've also told you that we don't need to live together to do that. In fact, I wouldn't WANT to. But you need to end your affair first."
Him: "I know all that."
Me: "Good. Then I'll never have to say it again."
"And, oh, counseling would be a must."
" ... and Las Vegas, too."
Him: "Lol"
And I told him good night.

This morning, he started texting about places we've mentioned living together to ask if I had looked into them. I told him no. I can't plan for anything until I know what I can afford. I re-emphasized my plan to stay temporarily in SC, but I got into more detail with him about it.

At lunchtime, he called and said he needed to stop by the house to drop off oil for D16's car. He said: "But I can't stay long; I have to go sign my lease. I'm only signing a 6-month one though. Sounds to me like after that, I'll need to make plans to move to (insert name of town I'm thinking of moving to in SC here)."

I was caught completely off-guard. I just chuckled and said: "Funny guy."

He dropped the oil off, smiled a lot at the kids, and left.

So is THAT an update or what?!?

I'm not planning to do ANYTHING right now. Just sit tight and keep trucking. I'm trying not to over-think or project or worry. I know what I'll have to say if he eventually asks what it would take to work on our M:

1. A NC-letter, approved by me, to OW,
2. A full transparency plan,
3. A psychological evaluation and then IC and MC

Maybe I'm jumping the gun to even be thinking that far in advance???

He changes his mind ALL the time.

Input, please?

A+

THAT, is how it's DONE, people.

And yeah -- do nothing for awhile. Just let it sit.

Starsky

P.S. This is going to sound paternalistic and internet-creepy, but . . . I'm proud of you.

:))))))

Doesn't sound paternalistic or creepy at all.

I *needed* that! Thank you!!!

Train,

Great job!!!!

I'm glad that you realize that you still need to hold tight. Likely, there will be some vacillation from him as his head and heart become pulled in two directions. I'm sure the OW is turning the screws BIG TIME! I'm gonna guess there are some fights going on between the two of them right now. YOU make sense to be his wife. You are the mother of his children and you have a history together. Ultimately, it's his head, and that logic, that must prevail. I think it will.

Your H is finally coming to grips with what he stands to lose. As the luster wears off his relationship with the OW, he's going to see her for the flawed person that she is. Meanwhile, you have stayed strong- and that's very attractive to him!

I do agree that if, or rather, WHEN ;), you reconcile you should move. There are waaaayyy too many triggers where you live now. What you both need is a fresh start- a new home for your new marriage and life together. The difference this time? Now you know how do do it right....

Stay strong,
HS

Train,

Awesome job! I read all if Raine's posts for hope. I think I've just found another one to follow.

I watched Job tell Raine time and time again to dig deep for patience because he isn't done baking. Hopefully you have the patience in you to weather the next steps.

FP

Thank you so much!

FP,

dig deep for patience because he isn't done baking
I love that analogy.

And I need to go find that thread you're referencing - stat.

Hey, HS!! Thank you!! You and Starsky always give me exactly what I need.

I'm sure the OW is turning the screws BIG TIME!
I sort of got this vibe this weekend. H mentioned certain things like, "Yeah. NO woman can just have sex with no emotional attachment," as he rolled his eyes. There were a couple other things he said that made me wonder if he was referring to OW. When he said those comments, he was clearly acting perturbed ... and wanting me to detect that, I think. I didn't probe.

I do agree that if, or rather, WHEN ;), you reconcile you should move. There are waaaayyy too many triggers where you live now. What you both need is a fresh start- a new home for your new marriage and life together. The difference this time? Now you know how do do it right....
If eventual reconciliation is where this is heading, then I certainly hope so. We both decided we were going to move in 2005, but we never went through with it. We were so preoccupied with D16&17 - who were only 8 and 9 at the time - staying in their school district ... and I didn't want to leave my midwife who would be delivering our son. We stayed due to familial and financial matters.

The thing is: the main reason we decided I should homeschool S7 is so he wouldn't make those connections that would make it so difficult for us to eventually leave. Our entire plan was to move once D16 graduates high school. We've always talked about moving to the mountains, even though no work is there that would match H's current income.

I'm speaking only for today (I don't know what tomorrow will bring), but I think, after the summer in SC, I might go ahead and make plans to move the little kids with me up to the mountains. It's only 2 hours away from where I live now. D17 - who will be 18 by then - can go with me. Or she can choose to finish her first college semester living with my sister. D16 (who will be 17) will stay here, but my mom offered tonight to rent an apartment inside the school-district limits so D16 can live here and finish her senior year at her school.

I have worried that my "big girls," who have been my rocks practically their (my) entire life, would feel I'm choosing myself - and the little kids - over them and their happiness. But both assured me tonight they understand exactly where I'm coming from, and they fully support my decision to leave. Obviously, they know they're welcome to go with me. But I don't want to disrupt their school lives/plans, so I'm trying to make sure their plans are in place first. And we'll all be together every weekend, whether I come back here ... or they drive out to spend a weekend with me.

So, yeah, the plan all along has been for H, the little kids and me to move west a little. I just didn't anticipate going a year earlier than planned. And I didn't plan to make the trek alone.

But I'm okay with it. I feel pretty good about it. It's where I've always wanted to be.

Obviously, I'll have to wait until the separation order is finalized to know if I'll be able to afford it. But I'm sure I can find something really small for the price I need if I only need to house the little kids.

And if H wants to follow us there and our relationship is at that point by then? All the better. It'll be exactly where we've always wanted to be. He'll just need to find work there.

I'm just trying to keep my eyes set on a future with my kids and without my H because I don't know if he'll be in the picture or not.

He DID increase his texts to me today, for sure. Random texts. I sent him a photo of D17 in her cap and gown, which she tried on today. Tears AGAIN for this momma!!!

H texted me a picture of a packed van; he moved into his apartment tonight. He wrote: "Everything I own in one van full! Just like back in the day! Love it ... Well maybe not, pretty sad actually."

I wrote back: "Love the bike with a kids' seat beside the mattress. That's awesome! Lol!"

He texted me later, telling me he was heading to the store for the big "moving into your own place purchases" and added: "this could be dangerous." We joked around about the colors he'll pick. I told him to buy cute things ... things that match. And I offered to embroider his towels.

I have to say: the easier, lighter exchanges have made the blow of coming home from the beach feel A LOT softer.

I feel good today. I feel surrounded by friends and supportive family. My big girls have put on their big-girl panties and - as usual - have picked me up and brushed me off and told me to go forth and be amazing. I'm so honored to be their mom. And I feel I FINALLY understand what people were telling me, when I was a 20-year-old single mother of two little girls, ages 1 and 2, when those people said to me: One day, these girls are going to be your backbone, and they'll love and honor you for what you've done for them. I'm starting to see that now. And I'm pretty awe-struck over it.

While I love my mom to pieces, I've known, since H left and discussions about housing began, that I couldn't live with her, even though she would help me financially. Living together would, no doubt, wreck our relationship. But she pulled up tonight, offering to help me in what I *do* need: she'll move closer to where I currently live to get D16 through her senior year of high school. My mom has always been a second-mom to my big girls. And she's pulling through for me in a very selfless way, as usual. She told me tonight: "You NEED to get out of here and breathe a little while. We've got this handled."

And then there's my sister, who has offered me a place to stay. She is amazing. She's working on her doctorate right now and is a single-mother of three, herself. But her career keeps her financially well-off, and she told me last weekend: "If the only thing keeping you feeling tethered is feeling your dependent on someone for finances, then f*** that place. Move in with me. I'll take care of you until you get on your feet. I have the means, and I'm your big sister. This is what family does." She has ALWAYS bailed me out.

I guess I just feel really good today. I feel surrounded and buoyed by love and support that - while I know has always been there - has never felt so BIG before.

I'm going to be okay, no matter what. And while I'm not looking forward to packing my entire house into a storage unit, I'm a little excited about moving south a little. My sister has a pool, and there's a lake practically across the street. I'm looking forward to some time at the pool ... and a little fishing ... this summer. It'll almost feel like an extended vacation.

I also forgot to mention that yesterday, while outside at the patio table, S7 - out of the blue - said to H: "Daddy, tell Momma you love her." There was a REALLY awkward moment that passed. But H put his arm around me and smiled and said: "I do love your momma, buddy."

Haven't heard THOSE words in a while ...

Late-breaking development:

As I was writing all that (above), H sent me a text, just after midnight, asking if I'm up. I replied: "Yes. How did your (shopping) adventure go?"

He didn't answer that question but instead wrote:

"Ok. Thought I'd let you know, I told OW that I'm really not into a relationship at this time. I told her that there are way too many things going on in my life, and I really don't have the time or energy to have a girlfriend right now. Between me and you, and I know you've gave me this advice, I need a clear head, or as clear as possible, to really figure out how I'm gonna repair, and to what state, my relationship with you, and all 4 kids. Having 'another' relationship takes away from that. Obviously."

I replied: "Thank you for that. And for letting me know. How are you feeling about it all?"

After 10 minutes, the message wasn't marked as delivered, so I sent a second text that read: "Looks like my text isn't delivering. Do you have sh!tty service at your new crib?"

That wasn't marked as delivered, either.

Itching to call him. But I'm not going to. Either he has crappy service. Or he turned his phone off for the night after texting me. Maybe he's avoiding the wrath of the lunatic he's been sleeping with?

Either way, I guess I'll let sleeping dogs lie - literally - and tackle another day when the sun rises tomorrow.

Whew. What a day.

He eventually responded and said: "I got it. Sleepy."

I said, "Get some rest. We'll catch up."

So happy for you that things are falling into place! (In every aspect) you are giving me the courage to go on.

Train,

You're doing so well in DBing your H who is clearly coming to some slow realizations on his own.

I do want to comment on some of these points:

Originally Posted By: Train

1. A NC-letter, approved by me, to OW,
2. A full transparency plan,
3. A psychological evaluation and then IC and MC

Psychological evaluation?!! WTH??! For what reason? I wouldn't pursue it if I were you. It would not bring you closer to your goal of a R at all.

Wonka,

Thank you.

You could be right.

My H's family has a history of mental disorders. His brother is diagnosed bipolar. His mom actually mentioned to me that H's behavior reminded her of his brother's. I don't have to come right out and tell him he's crazy. But I honestly think he might have at least an imbalance.

Any suggestions on how to better approach that? Or would you suggest not approaching it at all?

Oh, and hey, twinmom! Thank you. Planning to check in on you today!

Train,

I'd jettison the notion of having a psychological eval altogether. You would want to focus on keeping the road paved smooth for H to return to the M and home. I was glad to read that your H noticed your sexy new dress and shoes!

Keep up with this effort and re-attract your H.

Point well taken, Wonka! I am *so* thankful for the help on here with keeping my focus! Besides, if/when he would go to IC, chances are the C would pick up on anything - if there's anything there - and s/he can make the referral. Right? I can leave that to the professionals.

And, yeah, GREAT suggestion on the outfit. Lol!

So what heel height did you end up going with, Train?

About 3" wedges.

Okay, guys. I feel like I'm in "new territory" today, even though logic/reason tells me that nothing is different today than yesterday. Or a month ago.

It's weird, though. H was very chatty yesterday, texting me all day and then last night about supposedly calling things off with OW. Granted, I didn't read "conviction" in the words he said he told her. I don't think they're "over" yet. And I also think OW is going to be GRASPING at this point because she gave up her own M ... and even, likely, custody of her D11 ... for H. I doubt she'll go down quietly.

Until a few minutes ago, I've heard NOTHING from H since the text last night. And I haven't contacted him today, either.

D17 texted me a while ago, asking for a copy of our most recent tax return for her to use for a financial aid application for college. I told her she'd need to contact H for that but that he has told me his copy is at his L's office.

H just texted, asking: "D17 filling out (info for) a school loan?"

I replied: "Yup."

And that's it.

This feels WEIRD after the texts all day yesterday ... and especially after the text last night.

I mean, this is how we've been communicating for two months. But I don't like it. I'd rather have yesterday's communication.

Should I be doing *anything* differently? I feel I'm one of those people who are now questioning whether me continuing to distance myself *completely* is going to make OW look like the more desirable option.

Surely these feelings/questions are normal. Maybe I just need reassurance that I'm doing the right things. Or suggestions on things I should start doing differently?

Didn't the distancing you'd been doing lead to yesterday's flirty pursuit by him? Hmmm??

In fact, didn't everything you'd been doing lead to it?

I'd say it worked pretty nicely, no? Why would you want to get away from what has worked? DBing is, at its very core, "DO WHAT WORKS."

Don't go cold, but don't get all needy/clingy, either. Keep that Train mojo goin' !!! And when the time is right, remember the money shots:

"Hmmm, I"m not sure HOW I feel about that anymore . . ."

and

"I'm afraid it's not that simple anymore."

People -- especially MEN! -- value most that which is difficult to obtain.

Starsky

Yep. Yep. Anddddd yep.

Just what I needed.

Thank you!

This:

"Ok. Thought I'd let you know, I told OW that I'm really not into a relationship at this time. I told her that there are way too many things going on in my life, and I really don't have the time or energy to have a girlfriend right now. Between me and you, and I know you've gave me this advice, I need a clear head, or as clear as possible, to really figure out how I'm gonna repair, and to what state, my relationship with you, and all 4 kids. Having 'another' relationship takes away from that. Obviously."

... would have been the perfect time for: "Looks like we both have some big decisions to make."

Ugh! Why do I only think of the GOOD comebacks a day later?? I can hardly ever think on my feet, especially when he's being nice. Omg. I go soft!!!

And you know what rubs me the wrong way about what he wrote? That a *married* man - who isn't even legally separated - seriously wrote: "I really don't have the time or energy to have a girlfriend right now."

I mean, it almost makes me laugh to read it, for some reason. Why? It's not funny. It's just ... *unspeakable*!

I know, I know, pointless, fruitless meanderings again ...

I know, I know. I had the same reaction. It's why I think he's not quite there yet. But -- like HS -- I think he's getting there.

Just keep doing what you're doing. You'll have other chances, believe me. This one was like the Braxton Hicks of reconciliation contractions.

Starsky

Lol!!! Awesome analogy.

Thanks, Starsky.

Train,

Doing nothing is also an action.

Your H's latest text about OW is just thinking out loud and does not require a response. It's not an emergency. Leave him with his own thoughts.

As for your recent response to H's text about D17 filling out info for financial aid, it was short and to the point. Nothing more is necessary. This is WHAT works. Nothing too dramatic or writing War & Peace to H. In time, H will see clearly the contrast between the calm, cool, & collected Train and the OW. Patience. It's a'comin! Let the OW become the needy and clingy person!

P.S. Not sure if you asked here or not...nope, I'm not reconciled with Ms. Wonka. Can't recall who is asking what these days!