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Posted By: abbey1989 CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 01/14/12 05:46 PM
OK, I didn't plan on posting any more....but I am very distraught. My H told me he had to work today. But....I new that his "OW" was teaching/facilitating a class today at the college. I drove there and his car is parked. HE FREAKIN LIED ABOUT WORK. I knew it....that is why I drove there because I saw online that she was conducting this class.

SHOULD I GO AND WAIT FOR THE CLASS TO BE OVER AND SURPRISE THEM BOTH? INTRODUCE MYSELF TO OW?

Please any comments are much appreciated. I have an hour to make a decision.

Abbey
Posted By: ~ kd ~ Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 01/14/12 06:30 PM
What do you hope to gain?

I understand how you feel and I had plenty of time to "catch" my W with either one of her two OM's... and I didn't...

Does that make me "right" or "better"... no... I just didn't because, in my mind... it really was pointless... it might have made me feel better in the moment, but it would have been a very fleeting moment...

Do what you feel you need to do. If you feel like confronting, then confront... if not, drive away...

Just be willing to deal with the results of what ever you choose.

If you choose to drive away... be prepared to say, "I am done snooping and chasing my H and his OW. They are free to do what they want and I cannot control that."
Posted By: imthemom Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 01/14/12 06:31 PM
Dont do it abbey....its not worth it, neither one of them will care and you will just look like the crazy person.

be the bigger person and just know that hes a spineless coward, that is why he has to lie about were he is. Hes not a big enough man to be an adult and just be honest.
Posted By: too trusting Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 01/14/12 06:36 PM
I agree with ITM, don't confront them right now. BUT take some pictures in case you need them later.
Posted By: abbey1989 Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 01/14/12 07:07 PM
Kaffe...thank you. I really mean it. xo, abbey
Posted By: ~ kd ~ Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 01/14/12 07:37 PM
NP, Abbey. I really do so get that feeling. I really did have many, many opportunities to "catch" my W. It was the hardest thing to not do, after the snooping part...

It took me a long, long time to get over it and eventually, I did. Even now, I still have moments of anxiety over it.

Part of what helped me was truly knowing that there was nothing I could do to stop her. Nothing... Well, not just knowing that, but accepting that... completely...

The opportunity for an A arises and the reasons are really irrelevant. They move towards it and that is that. The reasons... our contribution, their contribution, the OP's contribution... is all really irrelevant. There are no take backs... only acceptance, forgiveness, surrender... transformation... you're transformation to the person you become... the FANTASTIC person you grow into, because of working through the hurt and re-learning to trust and love again... trust and love one's self...

Be well... {{{Abbey1989}}}
Posted By: abbey1989 Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 01/14/12 09:46 PM
Wow...thank you. In the end...I didn't drive to the school to meet them. My son saw me crying. I have a hard time not spilling the beans to him. Anyway...H called about 12:45pm and because I had completely worked myself up...when he called I asked "so...were you in San Clemente all morning?". And he kind of said well no I was in San Marcos at the steel vendor (right!). And then he said that his San Clemente client is doing some big project in San Marcos near the college. ha ha ha. Already working his "legit excuse" for being at csusm. Instead of working in San Clemente like he told me. Would have maybe been a legit excuse if his ow wasn't conducting her groovy vineyard class same time, same day. Am I a moron?
Posted By: abbey1989 Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 01/14/12 09:55 PM
Hi I'm the mom........thank you. You and kaffe were completely my voice of reason today. Much appreciated!!!!!!!

Nothing has changed in my situation, but at least I avoided a big blowout. Went to the beach instead.

Thank you.......A.
Posted By: abbey1989 Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 01/15/12 06:27 PM
Awkward afternoon yesterday. After H called after being at OW's seminar, I bolted. went to the beach for 2 hrs. Didn't bring cell. He called so many times. I must have missed at least 25 calls. He was working on son's bike when I got home. He said "I thought we were going to do that together" but I didn't want to be with him at that moment. Then....I was watching a movie at home and he put a blanket on me (nice) and I suggested we go to a movie. We ended up seeing "Carnage" his choice. Wouldn't recommend movie. Intense.

I completely backslided this a.m. when he was leaving for the gym (still dark) and I said lets snuggle/sex....the gym can wait......etc....obviously he was not interested and he left for the gym. Why do I do this after I know he is cheating?! Serious lack of self confidence.

Anyway...after these last few years, just want to be held. Nothing more. Want to feel secure. So trying not to be needy but all I want is to be wanted. UGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted By: imthemom Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 01/15/12 09:24 PM
abby...
i totally get how your feeling, its the whole feeling like youve been replaced that makes you feel so desperate. Its a horible feeling. I always thought that if a man ever did that to me (have an A) i would be out of there...it was a deal breaker as far as I was concerned.

And then I caught my H in bed with that woman and for the next week all I could think about was being with him. Like you said..seriouse lack of self confidence. I have sense worked on many things about myself and know that I deserve so much more. It doesnt make it any easier, and yes I love him and miss having that companion but not the person who is capable of making me feel the way he has. And I wouldnt sleep with him now if he was the last man on earth. As a matter of fact it is really hard for me to even be around him without feeling kind of dirty and grossed out.
I can tell you that it gets easier...its been over 3 months since I found out about ow and yes, i still have minutes of anxiety when I think about them together but its not as frequent and its not the gut wrenching pain and agony it was .....shockingly it does get easier.
be gentle on yourself...I think its a huge shock to our senses and we just have to ride it out.
Posted By: kml Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 01/15/12 09:53 PM
Abby -
I hate to say it, but I kinda wish you had gone, waited for them to come out together, and confronted them.

NOT that this is usually good advice. But I sense that you keep being held hostage by his lies - so long as he won't outright admit he's still seeing her, you can question yourself and hold onto that tiny shred of hope that there really is a legitimate explanation for everything you are seeing.

You can't confront him now - as you've said, he's already got his "legal" excuse in place.

I'm still for a private investigator in your case - I think if you had photos and proof that they are still carrying on, it would break the impasse you are in. Maybe for bad, maybe for good - but you can't keep on the way you have been, can you?
Posted By: Nblost Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 01/16/12 03:32 AM
I'm also with kml...not sure about confronting with OW there...but if you have proof, I think you should bring this into the open. Otherwise, are you happy like this?

From my experience, you are in for potentially a very long road if you just let things run their course. If you love him enough at this point to endure it, great....but you do not seem happy and I don't think he deserves to be treated with kid gloves.
Posted By: dbmod Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 01/16/12 03:51 AM
Hi abbey,

The best advice is to get EXPERT advice before confronting or even hiring an investigator. You are in for a potentially very long road no matter what you do, and you want to give yourself the best chances for success and happiness. Of course the experts we recommend are Michele and/or the DB coaches, but the board is NOT expert advice. You may have a promarriage counselor nearby that can help you.

If you confront the OW (and if you tell other folks like family or friends) you set something in motion that you can never reverse.

Before you do ANYTHING, know YOUR goals. THEN figure out what you need to do to achieve your goals, not just react.

Wishing you the BEST!
Posted By: Lostforwords Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 01/16/12 02:10 PM
Abbey,

I am no expert.....other than been there done that. Like DBmod noted....by confronting them all you would have done is set a ball rolling that is unstoppable and the damage...unrepairable. Yes you are hurting, I can understand that...in the end though confronting the affair by showing up at the college would achieve nothing. In the end you would will horrible, anger your husband, give the OW ammunition in that you are crazy, and you would not stop the affair.

The affair is out of your control...completely...and trying to control something that is out of your control is a waste of your time.

I haven't read your stitch, but what are you doing for you? I like the beach visit, but what else?
Posted By: abbey1989 Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 01/16/12 04:10 PM
Thank you all SO MUCH. This all started with H and his OW leaving her then husband 3 1/2 years ago. In fact....I remember the last actual day when I was still "oblivious" to their affair. Sometimes I still wish I didn't know. It was the night that Obama won the 2008 election. Here it is, another election cycle and here we are. So much has happened since then (good and bad). I still can't seem to grasp the motivation for H staying here with me. Why? When he seems to spend a decent amount of time with OW, building her new house, attending her class, etc...all supposedly unbeknownst to me.

H did say after the new year that he wants to take over all of his business office work (bookkeeping, etc...) since I am now working full-time. At this point I am ready to turn it over. Not that there is much going on. He has just had some small little projects since September. Have had to dip into savings to keep the ship afloat.

DBMod...thank you and I have had 6 DB sessions with Jodi, 3 over the last year. She is great by the way. What I got out of my last session in October was to not give myself permission to "snoop". Which I did when I googled OW and saw that she was conducting class next day. Then found H's car there. I caused my own pain and anxiety. Stupid.

Agreed Lostforwords that the affair is completely out of my control. I just need to make that sink into my thick skull.

This morning, I thought about how I never would have imagined I'd be in this protracted situation. Now just figure out how best to move forward...for me.

xo, A.
Posted By: abbey1989 Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 01/19/12 02:33 AM
Hi,

Got home from work today at around 4 and H was home....he seemed like a caged cat. He said he wanted to do something tonight and that he hasn't done anything at night in the last 3-6 months. He "just comes home". Well yeah...I reminded him that is what I do! And he has supposedly gone to a couple of work Christmas parties that I was also invited to but he didn't happen to mention it until the day of while I was a work.

So tonight I said I was going to work on paying some bills (biz & personal). Then he did say AGAIN that he plans to take on all of his office work. Part of me says YES! He should.....since I'm working full-time and I don't really know what the "H" he is doing right now all day long.....but then I think I should try to keep in the mix to know what's going on with the money.

I think OW's new house will be finished by June or so by my last "drive-by". I'm wondering if that is why he wants me to turn the books over to him or if he really is "concerned" about how much I am working like he says. ha ha.

He rarely makes advances anymore. And when I do he always makes an excuse like "stomach hurts" or "going to the gym".

I'm really not an ogre. smile

So that is the sitch. Boring as always. I wish I was a gal who had more gumption.

xo, A.
Posted By: Starsky309 Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 01/19/12 02:40 PM
Originally Posted By: abbey1989
I wish I was a gal who had more gumption.





So work on that. smirk



Starsky
Posted By: angel61 Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 01/20/12 10:03 PM
Abbey, do you plan on living the rest of your life like that?

If your H really wanted the OW over you, he would have left 3 years ago. The way it is, you are just being a doormat, letting him have his cake and eat it too, while you writhe in pain and jealousy and uncertainty, everyday waiting for the bomb to drop.

If he is ignoring you sexually, then you do have grounds to ask him what's up. Tell him that you are concerned about your marriage, that it is changing, whatever.

In many cases, confrontation is needed for the sitch to play out.
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 01/20/12 11:09 PM
Abbey

you need a plan, a "Campaign" of sorts. What are your GAL and 180s?

You just seem to be giving him ALL your power and waiting for the other shoe to drop. That's no way to live.

Maybe you can come up with an action plan w/Jodi or somehow know there's something that you are doing...as opposed to just worrying and waiting...

oh and what about meeting with a L so your financial fears are allayed?

(knowledge is power and you do not have to DO anything legal...just get information)

good luck
Posted By: AJM80 Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 01/21/12 08:19 PM
Hi Abbey - long time no talk. I've been in a bit of a transition cycle, but am a lot happier and clearer minded now. H is still living on east coast, we're living in midwest near family. Getting that space away from the drama has been huge. When I focus on other woman, I still get angry sometimes. When I think about my husband, I realize how messed up he is and how long this process has to be. Usually it's not my focus, I'm just living life.

I'd really like to hear what you want and what you'll do if he comes home tomorrow and tells you he's moving out to be with OW. Not the gritty crap that we've all been through, but are you on the way to where and who you want to be? I agree that he's made the decision NOT to leave you because he would rather live with you than with her.

I'd also like to know if your husband might be hiding money and that's why he just has a few projects. Not a cycle to get into, but please make sure you and your kids will be ok financially and have some time.
Posted By: MynameisMZ Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 01/23/12 01:19 AM
It surely is an individual decision and no two sitches are alike really. I agree that you have to set your goals, outline your "campaign" startegies as 25 suggests.

FWIW, in my sitch, I ignored all signs of an A for months. I then went into denial about it and it went on and on; first as an EA, then into a PA really over a 2 year period.

I started to confront it and he denied it was PA, but did to an EA and vowed to stop. He also confessed to me that he put the move on ow 6 months prior and she rebuffed him.

My suspicions grew and I started to snoop. I snooped because I came to a decision for MYSELF that I could not live a lie and I needed to know. I found evidence because he let me see the cell phone records. 3000 contacts each month with her and maybe 20 to me. Why did he give me the password?

Long story short, I did confront them. They of course denied it. Their agreement was to deny, deny, deny at all costs.

After the confrontation H continued to only admit to an EA. So, I requested he tell his best friend at work about it. Why did I do that? Because I made a decision for MYSELF that I was not going to be a doormat. The light needed to shine on them and they needed to be exposed. See, I believe that A can only exists in the darkness and secrecy and I was not prepared to be a part of that. That's just who I am.

I know I am not someone who can look the other way. Another thing I did was to issue a LRT right away. I don't necessarily advise others to do this because it is a very individual decision. I just told him that if it had not become physical, I didn't understand that (knowing my H's sex drive)and that maybe he should leave and go to her and see if that is what he wanted. He didn't leave. Six weeks later he left his "secret" e-mail open and I found all the chats. I then knew it had been physical and we hit rock bottom.

Yes, the ow called me crazy, and she did and said a lot of very evil and mean things. And yes, my H did move towards her for about a month. It had to play itself out and I am convinced I had no control over that. It was a very painful time.

But the ball was set in motion and it did lose its shine. My confrontation was a catalyst for change. The A died a painful and slow death. My H continued to be in a fog for quite some time. I can tell you now, 19 months after the exposure, that we are very happy, very much in love again, and look at that whole thing as a tragedy that happened to our M.
We've been rebuilding us ever since.

My H and I talk frequently about my "interventions" and how they were instrumental in getting him out of her clutches.
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 01/23/12 01:31 AM
I'm glad confronting and exposing to other 3rd parties worked out for you.

But it is NOT what DB recommends, and in fact they oppose involving others.

You are the only person who says it worked for them.

I only advise snooping if you are SURE it's a gamechanger...

I never advise telling 3rd parties, ever. I am not sure if that helped you as much as other efforts on your end...

Or,

are you saying YOU changed nothing in yourself the whole time??

I'm going to guess you GAL and did some introspection and 180s, b/c I've never seen punishing a spouse into returning, last. (And you can't have read DB and DR and not gotten anything out of them).

But it'd be good and perhaps more helpful if you told us about your inward journey if there was one, rather than suggesting what is not advised here. You may not be suggesting it but merely mentioning that and only that action

implies that's what worked. I don't think I buy it...I mean, did you honestly change nothing else in your dynamic?

Not to nitpick or bust your chops, it's just that I've seen this "tell others" about it, backfire EVERY other time here. Big time. Always seems to look punitive and vindictive...usually is.

And I've been here awhile...

but I'm sincere when I say I'm glad you reconciled or are in piecing.
Posted By: angel61 Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 01/23/12 06:24 AM
I read both of MZ's and 25's post and it got me thinking....

Although it is true that DB does not push confrontation or snooping, in most cases that I have seen here involving an A, the spouse already has ofund out or the bomb has been dropped. In Abbey's case, there is no bomb drop. It seems like her H is intent on living a double life, a lie, so to speak.

I don't think DBing will work in this case too. There are two scenarios here Abbey: either your H will one day just drop the bomb on you, or the A will fizzle out. In the meantime, you are just killing yourself with the suspicions and the pain of rejection. Whatever you are doing right now is not working, as the situation seems to be slowly getiing worse.

In my case, when I started suspecting an A I confronted my H right away (probably right at the very start of it) and asked what was going on. At that time, it quickly led the sitch to crisis levels, with bomb drop happening soon after. Thinking back, I think my knowing and asking did push it to that point more quickly than if I had let it play out by itself.

In our case, the A only remained an EA. I was in horrible pain, but what I felt was that at least it moved along. I learned my lessons, and thanks to this board, was able to recover my strength and move along.

My H, although initially brought up D, did not push through with it. I told him that for me, if we were going to separate, might as well have a D. Our D was a big reason for us to stay together though, especially since she has an anxiety disorder and we went through some really hairy times when she cut herself and when she once was thinking of suicide.

I made it clear though that I was not going to be in an M with him having an A. He asked for time to get over it, and continued a "hidden friendship" with OW, but I could not tolerate that either and at a certain point told him he had to end it all, as neither I nor our D could last in that situation.

Ultimately he agreed and we went to Retrouvaille.

Now we are in piecing.

My H thanks me now for staying, for being strong, for loving him unconditionally.

But I don't think we will be like this if we never got it out in the open.
Posted By: ~ kd ~ Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 01/23/12 06:42 AM
DB does not recommend confrontation.

In the end, it is a choice.

If someone wants to be brave enough to prove that confrontation really is the solution, then I and possibly others would be open to that. Of course, it would take a significant data set of confrontation vs. non confrontation to show any statistical leanings.

So again, in the end... it's a choice. But be responsible in that choice. If it doesn't work, there are no take backs. When only three people are involved (H, W, and OP), there is quite likely the least amount of "damage". In some cases, affairs can be lethal. And that's not stated as a joke.
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 01/23/12 09:58 PM
Angel

even if confronting in THIS situation were a good idea (and I do see the point you are making about the double life)

but the suggestion I was specifically responding to was involving OTHER 3RD parties.

Honestly I cannot ever imagine that being a good idea. It just looks punitive or vindictive and worse, it plays so well into the "crazy wife" images many have and the h is probably using to justify his choice to leave. So it hurst the w's cause.

Case in point--A woman in my high school class posted on our class's FB page (for which I am the administrator)

that her h had left her for OW--another classmate from long ago.

I deleted the w's post after 2 requests from neutral parties, who thought it was inappropriate and weird. (I had not checked the page in weeks, so I just didn't know about it).

But that's how two people not involved in the sitch, saw THE WIFE, not the OW...

and I find that's more likely than garnering sympathy for going public...
Posted By: tested metal Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 01/24/12 02:26 AM
I did it and now I am probably screwed. I wish i would have listened to the advice here, but the in-laws claimed they were pro-marriage. Now they are supporting her with the divorce!

Good luck with that!
Posted By: angel61 Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 01/24/12 06:06 PM
25,

I know what you mean! I didn't even mean to imply confronting the OW, more of the problem (and maybe her H). That is why I gave the example of my sitch (I did not confront OW initially, the first time I talked to OW was when I thought that they had already broke up their EA, and that did not work well, I think it was part of what made them continue contact clandestinely) - I used to agonize whether I did the right thing or not, but in the end I think I did....I would not have learned my lessons had I not faced the problem head on.

One of the things about problem solving, you have to know what the problem is. So in Abbey's case, at this point there is no evidence, the problem is still in her mind, right? Can she even prove that he is lying? What if he really had work to do in San Marcos? What if she is just a paranoid person? Even if she cuaght her H lying, how does she really know that he has an A? What will she do about it? Can she DB at this point, when he has not even dropped a bomb yet?

Maybe gather evidence first? At least then Abbey will know for sure. Then she will know what to do - whether it be to confront her H on whats happening (without even mentioning OW), or just plan to be better than OW and spice up her M. Maybe she can say (or write) something like:

"H, I know we have been married for XX amount of years, and I have been really happy and content but I do notice that you are changing. We no longer have sex, etc. etc...Is there anything wrong (this is just in essence, but there are many ways to write it).

If I remember the DR book, it does say that you can try writing about your problem to your spouse, request changes, explanations, honesty, etc. The example there was the drinking? I don't have the book with me right now but I will check tonite and post tomorrow.
Posted By: angel61 Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 01/24/12 06:09 PM
Tested metal, and thats one thing about relatives - blood is always thicker than water! I did talk about our sitch to my H's sibsand it did backfire on me. Although they did support me, they took it upon themselves to tell my H that they felt he should stay, and although in the end my H did stay, it brought up some bad feelings in him about me making him seem bad to his family.
Posted By: keep_going Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 01/24/12 08:41 PM
Confronting and exposing did NOT work for me...

I found out H was dating when I caught him at his place with someone else... We had been separated a couple of months and he swore that he wasn't dating. (I knew he was on a dating site a couple of months before this, but never confronted him on that).

He said he was then just casually dating. I later found out he was sleeping with OW, someone with whom he had started an EA before leaving. At first I didn't confront, but he became sloppy about hiding it, and I finally confronted him - in a very ANGRY way. I tried to guilt him, judged them both and it all backfired. I just pushed him more to be with her because I was so angry and I just wanted to be right... Bad idea.

My second mistake - when I first found out about his lies and dating, I confided in my two SILs. I am very close to them and they have been part of my support group. I was desperate and grief-stricken. I begged them not to judge him or tell anyone.

Long story short, someone said something and when H recently tried to introduce OW to his family as a new girlfriend and legitimize his R with her, he found out that his sisters already knew and he was furious at me. He accused me of trying to badmouth OW and ruin his R with her because of my jealousy.

Very, very bad ideas and I live with the consequences of my mistakes - and my H's anger every day.

I just hope this can help someone else not commit them too..
Posted By: MynameisMZ Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 01/24/12 10:14 PM
Let me clarify....quickly....that I did all of that BEFORE I found DB.

In counseling and subsequent discussions with my H, it was my going after him that was my 180! I can get into all the psychology of the whole A from both our pasts, it's not important here.

I really do believe it was a catalyst for change in my situation. In no way did I ever wish to imply or advise anyone else to do it. That is why I capitalized MYSELF.

I was very clear that I was not going to stay in a M where my H was having an A. With that decision made for myself, I made the moves I made.

I do feel badly about using his best friend at work to confide in. I have made amends there.

I had a life, that was part of the problem, I was TOO independent...enough about me. Abbey!
Posted By: abbey1989 Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 01/26/12 12:10 AM
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
Abbey

you need a plan, a "Campaign" of sorts. What are your GAL and 180s?

You just seem to be giving him ALL your power and waiting for the other shoe to drop. That's no way to live.


That's it! A campaign for me. smile I am so thankful to have your words of support. Let's see....GAL...I do like to hike, travel, photograph, exercise, be with my kids and dog, cook, garden, go to concerts, etc... still just feel a void. I know that only I can fix this.
Posted By: abbey1989 Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 01/26/12 12:12 AM
Originally Posted By: angel61
Abbey, do you plan on living the rest of your life like that?

If your H really wanted the OW over you, he would have left 3 years ago. The way it is, you are just being a doormat, letting him have his cake and eat it too, while you writhe in pain and jealousy and uncertainty, everyday waiting for the bomb to drop.



I think about this. Often. When I began posting here a few years ago, I never would have thought this would still be going on. Uncertainty is my daily dose of reality.
Posted By: abbey1989 Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 01/26/12 12:23 AM
Originally Posted By: AJM80
Hi Abbey - long time no talk. I've been in a bit of a transition cycle, but am a lot happier and clearer minded now. H is still living on east coast, we're living in midwest near family. Getting that space away from the drama has been huge. When I focus on other woman, I still get angry sometimes. When I think about my husband, I realize how messed up he is and how long this process has to be. Usually it's not my focus, I'm just living life.


I am so happy to hear that you are just living your life! Awesome AJM!
Posted By: abbey1989 Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 01/26/12 12:26 AM
Originally Posted By: AJM80

I'd really like to hear what you want and what you'll do if he comes home tomorrow and tells you he's moving out to be with OW. Not the gritty crap that we've all been through, but are you on the way to where and who you want to be? I agree that he's made the decision NOT to leave you because he would rather live with you than with her.


Well...is it sad to say that it might be a relief? I don't know. Living with a broken heart for this long is hard on the mind and body!
Posted By: abbey1989 Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 01/26/12 12:28 AM
Originally Posted By: AJM80

I'd also like to know if your husband might be hiding money and that's why he just has a few projects. Not a cycle to get into, but please make sure you and your kids will be ok financially and have some time.


Well, I doubt that OW is paying him $$ for his expertise in building custom homes. I think this is the only "secret" project he is working on. But thanks for asking....I will ponder that.
Posted By: abbey1989 Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 01/26/12 12:30 AM
Originally Posted By: MynameisMZ

My H and I talk frequently about my "interventions" and how they were instrumental in getting him out of her clutches.


Hi M2,

I am glad that the way you worked your situation has turned out well for you!
Posted By: abbey1989 Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 01/26/12 12:35 AM
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc

Not to nitpick or bust your chops, it's just that I've seen this "tell others" about it, backfire EVERY other time here. Big time. Always seems to look punitive and vindictive...usually is.


I am truly thankful for all of the folks who helped stop my insanity last week! I know that confronting H and OW while together wouldn't have been an attractive move for me and I just needed some calm, rational people to make me come to my senses. I am sure at some point, all of this WILL come out in the open.
Posted By: abbey1989 Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 01/26/12 12:36 AM
Originally Posted By: Kaffe Diem
DB does not recommend confrontation.

In the end, it is a choice.


Thank you again Kaffe for being my voice of reason.
Posted By: abbey1989 Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 01/26/12 01:15 AM
Originally Posted By: angel61
25,

One of the things about problem solving, you have to know what the problem is. So in Abbey's case, at this point there is no evidence, the problem is still in her mind, right? Can she even prove that he is lying? What if he really had work to do in San Marcos? What if she is just a paranoid person? Even if she cuaght her H lying, how does she really know that he has an A? What will she do about it? Can she DB at this point, when he has not even dropped a bomb yet?



Hi Angel61,

I wish I could say that "the problem" is in my mind but it is not. This is what I know:

11/2008 - OW texted us constantly over Thanksgiving weekend while we were in No. Cal.

12/2008 - OW left her H in the midst of a home rebuilding effort of their wildfire destroyed home. Her husband wanted my H to continue on with the project but my H bailed out. (unusual and we had no other work lined up).

12/2008 - H started working out, grooming, all of the weird MLC stuff you read about.

2/2009 - Found a beautiful card from H addressed to OW.

2/2009 - Asked H about his R with OW. He denies and say that I don't "trust him" and that I "never initiate sex" We talked about D that day.

2/2009 - H purchased (supposedly unbeknownst to me) and is using a secret cell phone.

8/2009 - H leaves on an "alone" road trip to No. Cal. to see a car race. Prior to his leaving, I walked into the office while he was checking out jazz bars in SF on the internet and then he quick closed internet screen. Not reachable most of that weekend. He chose to go THERE instead of with me to take our oldest son off to college, first year freshman.

1/2010 - H tells me he will be late because he is checking out some building lots for a friend (not the friend it turned out to be!) I saw the property info on his desk and made mental note.

3/2010 - Email came over from architect letting H know that he was unable to find the parcel map for "OW's lot purchase" I was so upset and asked if was building her house and his reply was "you run the office, you would know if I was building her house". He denied and said he wasn't sure why the architect emailed him.

3/2010 - He showed me pictures of a building from OWs campus where she works and I asked "who told you about the building" and he got completely mad and wouldn't speak to me for at least a day.

2/2011 - We were headed to my son's college baseball game. Just prior to leaving work and earlier that day, I kept getting phone calls from an unknown number. When I finally anwered, H was on the line and he seemed VERY VERY surprised that I answered. In fact....he hung up. When I called back, it rang and rang and then he called me from his normal cell number and said that he was at his jobsite and his cell phone wasn't working (???) and that he had to use one of the landscaper cell phones. Fishy for sure. I'm thinking uh-huh....but we were headed out to see son at college so I let it go.

The following Monday, I actually listened to the message that he left from that other number....and guess what? the message wasn't for me. It was for OW.

I confronted him and he denied. WHATEVER.

3/2011 - online records show that H is requesting all of the inspections for OW's new house that is being built.

12/2011 - I ask H "how is "OW's" new house coming along? He denied knowing anything about it. I let him know that something came over the fax with all of his name/contact info as the person calling into the building dept. for the various inspections. He DENIED. Then he said that all he could think of was maybe OW was using his name. LIES.

1/3/12 - OW's bday. H comes home late that night.

1/14/12- H tells me he has to work and instead he is at a class facilitated by OW at the college (on a Saturday a.m).

Tonight? H supposedly has a business meeting to pick up a check (but guess what? We already received the check in the mail today) and then he says he is going to take that former client out for dinner and wondered what card to use!

Saturday? OW is conducting another class and I am trying to thrwart his plan by making a better one. HA HA.

So, I hope you can see that this is NOT in my head. It might appear that I am a paranoid person....but I am so NOT. This whole thing has rocked me to my core and actually being a trusting person at heart has forever changed the way I will view this or any relationship.
Posted By: kml Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 01/26/12 06:56 AM
Soooooooo.....what do you want to do???

He's denied it for years.

OW has been on the hook for three years now - she's probably getting impatient.

She probably thinks when the house is finished he's gonna leave you and move in with her. Imagine how pissed she'll be if he doesn't.

BUT - it may be time to ask yourself - do you WANT to be with a guy who could carry on a three year affair and deny it when you ask him directly to his face? Someone who is building her home while you support him? (At the moment at least that's true!)

There come a time when light needs to shine on a situation - THAT'S why I said I kinda wished you'd confronted them. Not because I thought it was a good idea to do crazy "Cheaters" episodes - but because this business of him gaslighting you has to stop, and it seems like the only way is for him to be caught in the act when he can't deny it any longer.

If you still want him, odds are if you wait it out he'll be yours - after all, he hasn't exactly rushed to be with OW, now, has he?

But it may be time to ask yourself, is he really what you want?
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 01/26/12 08:01 AM
what KML said ^^^^

do you really want this man as your mate for life, or do you just not want to "lose"?

that's not meant to be offensive; it's a question we ALL have to ask ourselves when another party (OW) is involved...

there's an inherent competitiveness in us that makes us cling to something --that we don't really want IF someone else wants it--happens in stores all the time. You put the blouse back b/c you don't think it'll flatter you, but when another woman goes to get it, suddenly you DO want it, now that you reconsidered...

so you will have to dig deep on this question...

B/C i have to wonder what kind of life you are going to have with him...ever...

if this does not change very soon. And even then, what?
Posted By: leopoldstotch Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 01/26/12 06:08 PM
Abbey my heart goes out to you! I have lived through two A's that my W has had in the past so I know the pain you are suffering. Currently we are living together but she says we are seperated and I can tell you that if I were to find out now if she were having another A that that would be the end the M for me. Where there is smoke there is fire and if your gut is telling you he's having an A then chances are he is. I'm sorry to be blunt about it.

You have to ask yourself if this is what you really want. My opinion is is that you deserve better than this and you need to stand up to your H. Now I'm not suggesting that you do something "crazy" but from my experiences your H is in control of your M right now and he knows he can do as he pleases because you want so desperately to make things work. I know this because it was one of the things my W told me after her last A. She knew she could do whatever she wanted and she knew she had all the power in our M/R because she knew I wanted her back in the worst way possible.

It wasn't until I finally woke up one day and had had enough of everything and moved back to my parents that things began to change. Now I'm not proud of what happened when I moved back to my parents nor am I advocating this but what really woke up my W at that time was the fact that I started seeing someone. I never had any intentions of doing something like that but at that time the pain of rejection and the feeling of loneliness consumed me. That act could have very well ended my M but it didn't it was a wake up call to my W and she came to realize that at that time she did not want to get a D. Like I said we were fortunate at that time to get through all of that but I do regret how things came about.

I guess my point to you is is that I think it's time for you to take care of YOU. I don't think your H's behavior will stop until you put a stop to it. As long as you allow him to do what he is doing he won't stop. I'm sorry to say this but I'm saying this to help you but he is treating you like a doormat, just as my W did to me. It's up to you to stop this madness but you need to do it the right way not the way I did it. I hope you don't think I'm out of line here but I'm just giving you some food for thought. Your H is playing you for a fool and I think it's in YOUR best interest to put an end to it.
Posted By: angel61 Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 01/26/12 06:36 PM
HI Abbey,

Ok, I am convinced that your H is doing something behind his back, after reading your long list. Sorry about doubting you, its just that I can't wrap my head around the idea that this has been going on for 3 years now and yet nothing is happening. Its almost like the two of you are playing a game of who can last the longest. The latest posts from kml, leopold and 25 were all so spot on, I can't help but agree with them.

I think you and your H are in a codependent situation. He won't leave for some reason because the situation suits him. This is really very selfish of him. YOu can't rock the boat because of your fear.

Honestly, I don't know what to tell you.

But maybe, we can think of something solid and consructive for you to work with.

You gave us a list of what your H has been doing to prove that he is having an A.

Now, you have read a lot of books, have been given so much advice. YOu probably have tried a few things here and there to rectify the situation, right?

Can you list down all these things and think about which of those have worked, and which have not worked (I am guessing there's more of this than the other category)? Then maybe, it will give a better picture of whats wrong and whats missing.

As they say, in a relationship, both of you are responisble in making it work.

While its true that you can't change your H, is there anything that you can do to change to move this sitch along? Is the Abbey posting today the same one as the Abey posting 3 years ago, or is it an imporved version?
Posted By: dbmod Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 01/30/12 11:30 PM
This is an EXCELLENT discussion.


Another problem with exposure/confrontation is that it's irreversible. You can't take it back, and you can lose control of the momentum it sets in motion.
Posted By: abbey1989 Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 01/31/12 06:15 AM
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc

do you really want this man as your mate for life, or do you just not want to "lose"?



Wow that is a really good question. I have been in this limbo mode for so long now, I guess I really do need to think this through. There are times when I long for how we used to be, light, airy, spontaneous and fun. And then when I think about all of the lying that has been going on, I think why? Why do I even care? Then I get angry, sad, jealous, but again...why? Maybe you are right and I just don't want to lose.

There is so much that I really admire and love about my H, but also have found through the years that he can be secretive and sneaky which is not so admirable or attractive.

He is always respectful and kind to my face. We live well together but there is no passion. None. And I'm almost to the point where I am done trying.

Thank you for checking in with me. I really appreciate it. smile
Posted By: abbey1989 Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 01/31/12 06:19 AM
So on Saturday, OW was conducting another one of her annoying classes, and I managed to get H to agree to go away with me. So he missed the rainwater reclaimation class. Bummer! ha ha.

We camped in Joshua Tree and had a really nice time. Great hiking and beautiful weather.
Posted By: abbey1989 Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 01/31/12 06:22 AM
Originally Posted By: angel61
HI Abbey,

Can you list down all these things and think about which of those have worked, and which have not worked (I am guessing there's more of this than the other category)? Then maybe, it will give a better picture of whats wrong and whats missing.

While its true that you can't change your H, is there anything that you can do to change to move this sitch along? Is the Abbey posting today the same one as the Abey posting 3 years ago, or is it an imporved version?



Great response. Thank you. Will work on that! I am somewhat sad to say that when I think about where I was 3 years ago, I've kind of gone full circle and feel back where I started. Will think more on this....thank you angel!
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 01/31/12 01:05 PM
Originally Posted By: abbey1989
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc

do you really want this man as your mate for life, or do you just not want to "lose"?



Wow that is a really good question. I have been in this limbo mode for so long now, I guess I really do need to think this through.

do not underestimate the power of inertia. Heck, it's how half the couples got here in the first place.

It is also the reason so MANY elderly folks on their death beds, tell us NOT what they regret doing the most, but what they regret NOT doing...

Abbey-you are plain old stuck. Your pain and limbo is what you have become used to.

Your fear is more about KNOWING the truth than the truth itself, imo.

B/C once it's out there, a response is more or less expected...or you'd be admitting that you are accepting the unacceptable, which you are, and have been, for some time.

But "letting it out of the bag" officially somehow seems harder. It's a little wacky but I understand it. No offense meant by that, btw.



There are times when I long for how we used to be, light, airy, spontaneous and fun. And then when I think about all of the lying that has been going on, I think why?


OR do you ask, "was that even real?" I think the danger in allowing a facade/charade to go on, among other things, is that it undermines our perceptions of life in general.

We start questioning ALL our judgements and our world view.

Decision making becomes an ordeal.

When my BIL left my younger sister "J" out of the blue, she was so shocked that she became paralyzed emotionally for a solid 2-3 years. Endlessly debated who he was, the past and then, her every choice...I learned a lot about what NOT to do.

So when my older sister told me that I had begun to "sound like J"-first I wanted to hang up.

But then I realized "hey, she's right. I'm circling the drain with this situation going in circles, ever closer to drowning and I'm giving h ALL MY power. Time to get MY life back!..."

Don't let your h "Gaslight" you.
(A reference to a film in which the h tries to convince his w she is insane by hiding things she put in one place, and pretending things are one way when they are not. He gets her ALMOST to break...)


Why do I even care? Then I get angry, sad, jealous, but again...why? Maybe you are right and I just don't want to lose.

That is worth considering. Think hard about it. Pray that God gives you the humility to admit it, if it is true.

And So is the concept of simply not wanting upheaval in your life, AND OR doing the ostrich thing w/your head in the sand. You would not be the first.
But if it is that, know that only YOU can change these dynamics. HE WON'T.


There is so much that I really admire and love about my H, but also have found through the years that he can be secretive and sneaky which is not so admirable or attractive.

He CAN be? Honey, he IS secretive and sneaky. Has been for so long...he's just good at it. You know, when my h was in his mlc, one phrase he'd say that drove me nuts (and which I used in my stand up comedy routine)

was how he would not tell me something upsetting (and wrong of him)

b/c he "did not want to hurt me"...like he was a hero for lying!! WTH??

When did it become NOBLE to lie? Oh wait I know, it's noble when THEY do it.


He is always respectful and kind to my face.

[color:#CC0000]
sure makes it easier on YOU...oh wait...and it's easier on HIM! HE gets the best of both worlds. You get squat.

Most men/women don't or can't cheat for long term. The OPs want more or the spouse finds out or they fall in love and leave the spouse....

but there are charming users who CAN CHEAT Long term. They want it all. They do what OJ did. Cheat, lie, and "Deny, deny, deny"...and that is a quote.


[/color]

We live well together


what does that mean? You make little demands of him as a lover? I get that You don't insist on fidelity, but do you even get some of his--"h passion"?


but there is no passion. None. And I'm almost to the point where I am done trying.

Thank you for checking in with me. I really appreciate it. smile



You are welcome. Sorry you are here, but am glad you don't want to be.

You know YOU have to be the catalyst for change or this will go on until either the OW forces him to leave you, or he finds another, or it does not end. 3 years at it is a pattern. Not a "MLC" or even a regular WAH. Just a cheater.

Might be making plans for an exit or biding his time, but I don't recall the kids ages or finances...
You want your life to change? You want it to be better? Change must come from your end. It's just got to be you. Do you get that?

So, how can we support you?
Posted By: kml Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 01/31/12 07:47 PM
Nothing unreasonable about saying "H, I know you've been lying to me about OW all these years, and I'm not willing to go on this way. What do you propose we do about this?"
Posted By: angel61 Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 01/31/12 09:33 PM
I think 25 did such a good job with explaining why your sitch is frustrating! I love the way she says that you need to be a catalyst for change.

As it is, you are just happy with the "crumbs" that your H gives you. You are happy with your little "victories" - like being able to take him away for a day - just like you described when you and H went camping in Joshua tree, you were happy that you had a good day together and was able to stop them from seing each other that day.

But I will ask you, what good did that do for you in the long run? Will it change things? Your H may just chalk it to another "crumb" he is handing you, and could easily go and see OW the next few days after, and spend "quality time" with her instead of sitting listening to a boring lecture. Have you thought of that ? Maybe he just said "OW, I will go and humor W today by going with her camping. Don't worry, I won't sleep with her, but when I come back, we could have a really fun time together .... by ourselves..."

So your win is a hollow one, one that does not have any meaning. What we are asking you here is to think of how you can do something which can bring about real change. Your H has to know that you cannot go on not knowing why he is changing, that you have needs that he has to consider.
Posted By: kml Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 01/31/12 10:40 PM
Well, things like the Joshua Tree trip are an opportunity to show him what he'll be missing. But you've had plenty of those opportunities now. So it seems like either you resign yourself that you're gonna wait out his affair, and you think you'll be okay with knowing that went on as long as it did - or you make a move to get things into the light, accepting that it might mean breaking up. What do you want?
Posted By: angel61 Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 01/31/12 11:48 PM
kml, maybe so, it can be that. But I am guessing that if the H is really into OW, he probably was looking at this more in a resigned, "gotta do it for obligation so W doesn't leave me" manner. During the time my H was having an EA, I felt like he would try to have fun with me but it sort of fell flat and I felt that it made him miss OW more....

And Abbey, what if after all the waiting and hoping that the A fizzles out, what if it doesn't and you get the bomb?
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 02/02/12 07:44 AM
what they said...^^^


Not sure what your age is, but I know Life is a lot shorter than you seem to realize. 3 years of getting this crap would make me batchit nuts or batchit mean.

Either way, I would not like myself much.


At some point it gets harder to meet new people,

like a man who would cherish and treat you well-and Not cheat. So how long do you want to waste wait for your cheating h to wake up?

I sort of can understand a "fling" and I know how a one night stand can happen.

But the problem that I really have with long term affairs and why they'd be dealbreakers for ME

is the long term deceit that is required. THat eats away at a lot of things.


It would undermine too much for me to rebuild...but that's me.

OTOH I don't see you doing the work you'd need to do to get past this

and of course, neither is your h. At all....

so as Angel said, the "victories" you are getting, are hollow and ring false.

You deserve better.


But you have to demand it, and then go get it. MAYBE NOT from him.



((( )))
Posted By: NNP1965 Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 02/02/12 11:51 AM
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc


You deserve better.

But you have to demand it, and then go get it. MAYBE NOT from him.




You also have to believe you deserve better, before you can even want it for yourself. I believe that is why I was stuck for so long.
Posted By: angel61 Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 02/02/12 10:56 PM
Exactly!

YOu have to regain your self respect and self esteem.
Posted By: abbey1989 Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 02/03/12 10:34 PM
Hi,

On a quick lunch break so checking in. This week has been tough. Working a lot and sick to boot. My brain is fried. Anyway, get this......When H called in the inspection for OW's house in January, instead of using his legit business/cell number.......he left the number that he called me from by mistake exactly one year ago today. That was the phone number that he said "was a worker's phone" that he "borrowed" because his wasn't working. LIAR. I think he used that number because I had asked him about the other inspections listing him as the contact in December which he denied.

All of this construction stuff is public record. I admit, I looked it up. I actually called him yesterday morning and left a message on that number. I did....can you believe it? But I didn't care. Just numb. I've been just so worn down by this job, cold, and my sitch. The message was just "hi, call me when you get this".

So wouldn't you know....he called and called and called.....and texted and texted. He wanted to make sure that I felt OK (cuz he knew I have been sick all week). Of course not admitting that he got my message from his secret cell phone because I'm not supposed to know about that right? I knew and he knew why he was calling. Yesterday, all day long I thought.....well this IS IT. I'm going to summon the courage to have a real heart to heart. Then I looked at the family photo I have on my desk at work thinking...."Wow, that was probably our last family photo".
Trying so hard all day long at work not to cry.

I worked late and when I walked in the door....H knowing that I've been sick....had layed out my cozy flannel jammies to put on with fluffy socks. He actually made me grilled cheese and tomato soup and served it on a tray after he tucked me into bed. Seriously. That was nice after a sucky day. He made me Theraflu, got me water, sat next to me on the chair by the bed while we watched my favorite movie Pride and Prejudice. He later got me Nyquil and tucked me in again...then he retired to the sofa. Then....this a.m. he went out and bought me Dayquil before I left for work and made me some toast with an egg and tomato. Wow. Queen for a day. ha ha. I know why he is doing it and it kind of makes me laugh inside.....but anyway.....we'll see what this weekend brings.

I've been going over and over in my head what I want to say and how I can say it to not appear whiney, needy, etc...and especially I don't want to cry. So not sure if this will be the weekend but I feel it is coming soon.
Posted By: kml Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 02/04/12 12:11 AM
Ha ha - grilled cheese and tomato soup? Milk it!!!!! At least you're getting something out of his guilt.

Wait until you're better and in a strong place - then just lay out the facts: "H, I know you are working on OWs house, and that you have a secret cell phone. I have to assume your affair with her is ongoing. I'd like to know what you think I/we should be doing about this? "
Posted By: FiatLux Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 02/04/12 02:28 AM
I must learn how to stay this calm. Maybe I have very little emotional intelligence - either than or you all are amazing! KML, what do you mean by being in a stronger place - rested, confident, or what?
Posted By: kml Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 02/04/12 04:20 AM
Conversations with the WAS never seem to go well if you approach them when you're stressed, sick, emotional, whatever. They go best when you're rested, healthy, calm - coming from a place of strength. Much less chance of crumbling or pursuing.
Posted By: MynameisMZ Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 02/04/12 08:07 PM
This will continue as long as you allow it.

What "proof" will you use to let him know that you know?

When I finally confronted my H, I got myself to a place where I was really clear I wasn't going to share him. Probably already told you that. I just think it's important to be in a good frame of mind.

Ever notice that after you recover from an illness that you feel clearer about things? At least that is what happens with me.
Posted By: Starsky309 Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 02/05/12 01:25 PM
Abbey,

This will continue until YOU decide that honesty and fidelity in your marriage is more important than having your flannel nighie laid out, and your deceitful husband making you grilled cheese and coup.

He's playing you, HE knows he's playing you, YOU know he's playing you, and -- most destructively -- HE KNOWS THAT YOU KNOW that he's playing you . . . and yet you allow it to continue.

It's completely up to you. But DON'T expect anything to change.


Starsky
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 02/06/12 04:25 PM
Abbey

sorry you are under the weather.

But a grilled cheese dinner and trip to the store when you are sick, would not undo 3 years of lying and adultery, for me. I don't know his or your financial situation, other possible reasons for carrying on like this, kids, a home, etc

or if he's simply

a serial cheater, who likes to cake eat a LOT, and also feel good about himself.

My question is whether you really read and PROCESSED what we wrote to you?

I didn't feel that way. I didn't feel "heard".

Are you still mulling it over or what?

As far as confronting him, What is there to "prove"? Why bother?

He'll deny/deny/deny. OJ did that with his wife (before he killed her) and with the women he was seeing later. It is a philosophy many adulterers live by.

They will deny a photograph of them in bed w/OW, and say it was photoshopped.

You will not get them to admit what they've done. They will deny it, always.

So please do NOT expect him to own ANY of this.

IF you caught him in bed he'd say it was the first time, "a one time mistake" AND that you were neglecting him so in a way, it's not his fault...it's yours.

Your decision is whether a slice of attention now and then, like a sandwich when you're sick---and all the mind games you two seem to play,

is a marriage.


Do you feel his guilt is somehow empowering to you? Like it's leverage?

See, I don't get that at all.

But I do Hope you feel better.

(( ))
Posted By: angel61 Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 02/06/12 06:45 PM
Exactly what 25 said. I felt exactly the same when I read your post - its as if all our efforts were ignored.

Abbey, I think you actually LIKE being a victim.....you have a martyr complex.....there must be something that you are getting out of it to be able to stay in this situation....
Posted By: kml Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 02/06/12 07:07 PM
Hold on, folks

Remember, this has been a long and successful marriage with kids.

It is possible that this is a midlife crisis type aberration on his part, possibly one that is winding down in the face of positive changes on Abbey's part. We don't know.

And I don't think Abbey is playing the victim here. I do think she's a bit scared of the changes that would happen with divorce - which is perfectly rational - and is hoping her H will eventually get over his affair - which may well happen (after all, he hasn't left for her yet, now, has he?).

I think, though, Abbey, that what you're hearing from everyone here is the frustration that your H is continuing to lie - and perhaps getting the truth out into the open is the push needed now to effect change.
Posted By: abbey1989 Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 02/06/12 08:46 PM
Originally Posted By: angel61
And Abbey, what if after all the waiting and hoping that the A fizzles out, what if it doesn't and you get the bomb?


.....my whole purpose for being here is to try to save my M. I would think that the majority of people in my situation would have bailed. Do you think I should just walk away?

We have been married for 22 years and have two wonderful children in college. Lots of $$$ involved there to support them on their journey. We own a home and a business together. No I don't enjoy playing the "victim" and I am sorry if I come across that way. I do appreciate your words an am just trying to figure out what I am going to do at this point. I am 47 and the idea of starting over in every aspect of my life frankly scares the crap out of me.
Posted By: abbey1989 Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 02/06/12 08:51 PM
Originally Posted By: kml
I think, though, Abbey, that what you're hearing from everyone here is the frustration that your H is continuing to lie - and perhaps getting the truth out into the open is the push needed now to effect change.


Trust me....H continuing to lie has been at the forefront of my mind for a very very long time.

I am trying to figure out the best way to discuss this with my H, hopefully free of emotion. I think about this all day long. Every day. What to say or not say. Once I say it, can't take it back. So that's where I am.
Posted By: kml Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 02/06/12 08:53 PM
Don't let that fear keep you stuck, Abbey.

I understand why you want to fight for your marriage - but it may be that now, the best way to fight FOR it is to open the windows and let the truth in. What you've been doing is just keeping you stuck. And you are losing respect for him every day that this goes on this way.

Don't be afraid - if your marriage does collapse, there is a whole world out there of adventures to be had. But I think it is equally likely that your H will be somewhat relieved when things are out in the open, and that he'll choose you. After all, as I said before - he hasn't exactly been in a rush to go off and be with her, now, has he? She's probably getting kinda mad at him by now.
Posted By: MynameisMZ Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 02/06/12 10:13 PM
Yeah Abbey1989, I agree with what kml. You came here to save your M and you want to be sure you do the right thing, in the right way. Nobody can fault you for that. I think it's just painful for people to watch you writhe in so much pain because we've all been there! Please, use this board how YOU want to and don't let anyone else tell you how you need to or should be doing it. Lord knows you've had enough control of your M taken from you. Don't let how you need to deal with this be taken or coerced away from you as well. Take what people say and use it if it's helpful. If it's not helpful, then leave it. I'm here to empower you, OK?

I'm unpopular sometimes because I don't necessarily agree with not confronting. By going along and not bringing it out in the open is contributing to the secrecy and thus the intensity. I wasn't an am not interested in being a silent threesome.

I didn't come to these boards until the A had been over for 5 months. I've told it before and I will tell it again. BEFORE I knew about DB, I had strong suspicions that my H's EA was more than that. And YES, he did deny it. I do believe now that my confronting him and ow set in motion the demise of their A. I would do it all over again. That is just me. I like DB because it addresses what needs to change in both partners. But hold that thought.....

I just knew I wasn't going to be able to live in a M where I wasn't the one he was completely devoted to. I also knew that confronting him and ow could possibly lead to his choice to leave. I was ready for that to happen. I guess what I am saying is that you will get to a point where you need it to change. Sounds like you are gearing up for that.

And as far as it taking this long....c'mon people, Jack3Beans told me when I started out on here that I could be in for a long ride as far as MLC is concerned. He was right, it can take a long time. Looking back, I can identify H's MLC starting in 2002! Hopefully we are on the tail end of it.

Yeah, I had to change things and I did. H is now changing things too. I fear that we would still be in the gallows if I hadn't decided that I, yes, as in ME.....I was ready for it to change and I was willing to take responsibility for it "going wrong." But this allowing cake eating for months and months is insane! Not me, uh uh...not for me...not going to share my H.

Do you know what I'm saying? It's you, it's about you. You know what he is doing is wrong, you know how much it hurts you. So, your decisions about what to do have to be in your own best interest. In mine, I KNEW it would destroy me to let the secrecy go on. I decided I'd rather not have that M at all if he wanted to do that. I was very clear about that! I think it was that attitude that made it work. It was not a manipulative play to coerce. I meant business! I wanted more from him and our M. And if he couldn't give it, well then, I didn't want it. That's another spin for GAL.
Posted By: MynameisMZ Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 02/06/12 10:29 PM
BTW, there was one thing our MC said in one session that clicked with my H. She said, "I can't choose to not get cancer, I can choose to not cheat." It was a wake-up for him that he actually COULD choose monogamy. Imagine that!.....eye-roll....Before that he will readily admit that he felt no control over himself. Another eye-roll.... but you can't argue with what's in people's minds if it stays in there. We then explored the roots of that and well, now we have some very good discussions about the A, the ow and how it all happened. Sometimes we even laugh about it. Imagine that! No eye-roll this time.
Posted By: Nblost Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 02/07/12 12:09 AM
Just to layer on with MZ. My IC believes men are often SO SIMPLE. The OW simply makes them feel good about themselves. I've been saying what I think are basic statements to my H like "I wonder what our marriage would be like if you put the same energy into our marriage as your affair?" From the look on his face, I can tell he hadn't ever thought about it.

For me, I had evidence from text messages/internet that my H was obsessively texting another woman. I found out within 6 weeks of it starting. I confronted H and he initally denied a PA. We went to a MC and the MC told him to tell me the truth and answer any of my questions. That night, he admitted to a PA and answered my questions.

Now, my H has then continued the A and wanted to stay married for the last 5 months. I've told him we need to separate now that the holidays are done because I can't live like this anymore. Frankly, for me, it's been worth having it out in the open and while I did the DB-ing approach...I also felt like I needed H to know I knew.

I'm not sure much makes a difference when your H is in an affair. However, if you aren't happy...something has to change. Either change yourself and decide to just put up with what seems like an affair....or, let him know you suspect something, and you don't want to live like this.

From what I've read about affairs, your H could have an affair where he gets a couple needs met by the OW, and other needs met by you. Those types of affairs can continue for a long time unless someone forces the issue. (I've read examples where they last 30 years)

On the other hand, if the OW has any sort of self esteem, she has to be getting tired of this too. However, if it's already gone on this long, she may just be in it for a couple needs to and she may not care about any long-term relationship with your husband.

You sound to me like you are at the point where you know something has to change. I just don't see how talking to your H can make things much worse. Frankly too, I swear my H doesn't remember most of our conversations...so even if you say something "wrong"...he'll probably forget it in his affair fog.

Wishing you strength!
Posted By: MynameisMZ Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 02/07/12 02:26 AM
YES NB, it IS how ow makes them feel.

Just the other night we revisited why the A happened. It's far enough away from it all to be able to have those conversations in an autopsy type of approach. He said that basically I made him feel....yes "You made me feel like I couldn't do anything right." Then he told me about how he would go to work and she would tell him how wonderful he was, how he handled that employee, how good he was when he had to discipline......and all he was hearing from me was .....Geeeeeeze, he couldn't even give me examples. Re-write history? I agree with NB's IC, "so simple."

So recently H tells me that I don't pay enough attention to him sexually. For past three weeks I've been dealing with some hormonal issues....not exactly focused on sex. Sigh.....a little hand-work every morning does wonders. SO SIMPLE! It's so simple it almost seems boring.
Posted By: MynameisMZ Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 02/07/12 02:28 AM
As Abbey (where are you girlfriend?) would say, they'd be willing to give it its own zip code.
Posted By: KarenR Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 02/07/12 05:10 PM
Hi Abbey,
Unfortunately your situation is all too common. It is very difficult to walk away from a marriage you were happy in and there are children involved. Please don't give up, as I see so many couples come back from infidelity and have a successful relationship. It is a process...and there are things you can do, and say that can make a positive difference...so, before you go it alone, I highly suggest you talk to one of Michele's coaches, as they are experts in sorting this out and helping you come up with a plan that can start your marriage back on the right track.
good luck!
Posted By: angel61 Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 02/07/12 10:08 PM
Thats true, MZ, the relationship with the OW is always to make them feel good. I remember reading smewhere that people don't remember what you said, or even what you give them, but they do remember how you made them feel!

My H said the same thing - I made him feel inadequate, I criticized, he felt that he was always wrong. He did not know what to do to make me happy. He needed someone to side with him, and OW was there to listen and commiserate.

I told him .... I am not the enemy. In fact, whatever he does, I will always be by his side.
Posted By: MynameisMZ Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 02/07/12 10:55 PM
angle61...This has been HEAVY on my mind. I woke upthis morning thinking about it.

So, I asked H.

MZ: "Honey? HOW did I make you feel inadequate?"
H: "What brought THIS on?!"
MZ: "I've been thinking about the changes I've made and wondering if I need to make more."
H:"I can't give you any specifics right now, but I will think about it, OK?"

Stay tuned!
Posted By: angel61 Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 02/07/12 11:39 PM
Abbey, sorry for the hijack, but who knows, you might pick up a thing or two from the lively discussion here.

MZ, have you read the book "how to improve your marriage witout talking about it" by love and stosny? It will give you an idea how we make men feel inadequate and like failures. Sometimes, just asking for something (like affection, understanding) can make them feel so. And we are trying to make them aware of our needs, but they think it is a criticism of their inability to make us happy.

It does seem silly but when I read it, it did make sense.
Posted By: Endeavour Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 02/09/12 04:34 AM
Hello Abbey,

I've been following your threads for awhile now but haven't actually posted to you prior to today. My H had a year long A but ironically when I first began reading your threads, I had no idea I too would be dealing with infidelity someday.

We are piecing now and I will tell you that recovery is not easy so I can imagine to some degree the heartbreak and uncertainly you must be dealing with right now. My heart goes out to you.

Anyway, from my recollections of your posts, you have worked on yourself, you've GAL'ed, you've shown your H what he would be missing if he chose to leave the M, and yet his A continues. I've always got the impression that DB'ing your M is at least in part about doing what works which is why there's a LRT when nothing else does. I'm assuming this is because sometimes you can follow all the DB rules and nothing will change in your M.

I've done a lot of reading about infidelity since discovering my H's A. (He ended it prior to exposure and the A was exposed by the ow). Anyway, I think that perhaps you are dealing with a cake eater. Your H is getting some of his needs met by you and some by ow. I'm assuming you're meeting more of his needs, or he would already bombed you or left for ow at this point. But he hasn't and I think you have more power than you realize.

One thing that my H said since the A was exposed that really made me pause is that he knew if I found out about the A that I would not stay in our M if he chose to continue the A. He knew that about me. That if he wanted our M to survive, that ow had to go. I believe we've all made mistakes in our M's and that's why were here. Actually, no M is perfect because there are no perfect people but in one way or another, we do teach people how to treat us. This is my opinion so take it as you will because I don't know you but your H knows you and right now, he absolutely believes you will stay in the M while he's having an A. I think that's probably why he's cake eating and perhaps believes it can go on indefinitely or at least until he makes a decision.

I'm not saying you should confront him or that confronting is either good or bad. I think it depends on the situation, how long the A has gone on and the circumstances surrounding it. However, I do know without a doubt that if I knew about my H's A while it was going on, I would have confronted him and I would have let him know that I could not and would not be in M with three people. Not as an ultimatum but simply because that's one of my boundaries. I could not knowingly be the wife of some woman's (and I use that term loosely) boyfriend.

Originally Posted By: MynameisMZ


I'm unpopular sometimes because I don't necessarily agree with not confronting. By going along and not bringing it out in the open is contributing to the secrecy and thus the intensity. I wasn't an am not interested in being a silent threesome.

I didn't come to these boards until the A had been over for 5 months. I've told it before and I will tell it again. BEFORE I knew about DB, I had strong suspicions that my H's EA was more than that. And YES, he did deny it. I do believe now that my confronting him and ow set in motion the demise of their A. I would do it all over again. That is just me. I like DB because it addresses what needs to change in both partners. But hold that thought.....

I just knew I wasn't going to be able to live in a M where I wasn't the one he was completely devoted to. I also knew that confronting him and ow could possibly lead to his choice to leave. I was ready for that to happen. I guess what I am saying is that you will get to a point where you need it to change. Sounds like you are gearing up for that.



Yes, to all of the above.

Secrecy is a big part of A's. My H told me that if I had exposed the A at any time (not that I could have because I didn't know about it), he would have ended it because deep down he knew it was an R based on lies and deceit. He said exposure would have forced him to face this fact a lot sooner. Obviously my circumstances are different but my point is that it's not always so black and white. But in my case having the A exposed actually forced us to talk to each other with complete openeness and honesty and we moved very quickly to piecing. All the card were on the table and there were no more secrets. It's amazing how quickly we reconnected once we dealing with truth. Bear in mind, I did DB to the best of my ability for 4 months before it came out and H realized I was open to forgiveness and a new and better M so it couldn't have happened with out DB.

Anyway, I'm sharing my experience in the hope that you will take from it what you need. I wish you luck, Abbey.
Posted By: Endeavour Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 02/09/12 04:40 AM
I apologize for the typos above as I hit reply by accident before proof-reading.
Posted By: AJM80 Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 02/10/12 05:51 AM
Abbey, Abbey - how's it going? Thinking of you. Hope you feel better. smile Kind of hope your H's heart is bleeding out on the floor of your living room, too, but only because he's an a$$ for still doing this crap. It's been almost 2 years since my H started cheating, but we've been separated since a few weeks after I found out.

Remember that amazing feeling, post breakup (think waay back), when the downward momentum of a bad relationship/emotions stopped and suddenly you realized that you were on an upswing and getting looks when you're out and about? I hope you getthat feeling sometime this year, with or without your husband. I agree with a lot of the last few days worth of posts - you deserve better than this.

Can't tell you how or who will get you there, though. Only you can decide if you'll confront him or keep the status quo. My only continued piece of advice is to live as happily as you can, but protect yourself financially/emotionally by having an escape plan in place, if things get weird.

A fluff post, but full of lots of love to you. I bought our spring garden seeds today. We're moving to our 1st house in a few weeks! Gotta get them started so that the kids have veggies to eat right out of their own garden.
Posted By: MynameisMZ Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 02/11/12 03:20 PM
Endeavor,

THANK YOU! I'm in a snarky mood, so be fair warned. ......

"I do know without a doubt that if I knew about my H's A while it was going on, I would have confronted him and I would have let him know that I could not and would not be in M with three people. Not as an ultimatum but simply because that's one of my boundaries. I could not knowingly be the wife of some woman's (and I use that term loosely) boyfriend."

Ahhhh...someone agrees with me! Yay. Endeavor, you explain your limits so well. I was there too. Every M is different, every A is different, so you have to assess for yourself what will be needed. Like you, I didn't know for a long time. I denied it, thinking I was paranoid, thus ignoring all the clues. Even asked him and since I thought we were strong, believed him when he denied it. Asked for a better R and M. He just kept up the A. Even texted her from our hotel bed at 5 AM while we were on a vaca to improve our M! After ML to me!
It wasn't until it was on its outs that I woke up and couldn't ignore the clues. He was dropping them unconsciously on purpose....I really believe that. He needed me to help get him out of it. AND he had my attention then too. Stopping the A would have risked losing that attention. So, beware of a man's need for nurturance and attention. They really ARE SO SIMPLE as NBlost's IC pointed out to her.

....which leads me to Angel.....

Angel,

Yes, that book is on my bed side table. Explains a lot! I am amazed at how his shame is so right there. I vented this AM in Keeping Changes Going or some such thread. Even my saying something out loud or adding to something he's said gets reconstituted as me disagreeing with him, dissing him, complaining...blah blah blah....I'm exhausted.

So, yes to what Endeavor says, piecing is HARD work. Harder when you BOTH need to change. One person can only do so much. Really! I know the premise for DB, it's solution based and one person making changes does effect the "system." Sigh, but when the H does crappy behavior day-in and day-out and there is no change despite your best DBing efforts, it can lead to burn-out. You are only human.

And so to you Abbey19...I stand behind what I've said all along. I refused to be a part of the A by maintaining its secrecy once I found out the truth..
Posted By: kml Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 02/12/12 07:30 PM
Knock knock Abbey - you around? Are you okay???
Posted By: abbey1989 Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 02/14/12 09:03 PM
Hi there,

Happy V day to all of my fellow DB'ers. Valentine's Day will NEVER be the same for me. I found out about H's OW on Valentine's Day in 2009.

Since our finances are tight right now, I just made H some cupcakes (gluten free). He loved them I suppose. He called me at work around 11:30 this a.m. and said he was headed up to his former jobsite where his guys are doing another small project. He said he will be done after that. So we talked about making dinner, something special like steak, red wine, ya-da ya-da. Since I don't really ever cook steak or even know the cuts very well, I called him back about 1/2 hr later while at the grocery. He didn't answer.

I know where he is in my heart (no pun intended). My guess is either at lunch with OW or at her place.

He was home all weekend. HIGHLY unusual. We worked a lot around the house and relaxed both evenings instead of meeting up with friends like usual. He brought me to his client's open house in San Clemente. I guess I am good enough for that.

This morning I felt strong, confident and had a bit of a whatever attitude about H and his goings on. Then, because I do think I have crazy spot on intuition, when he called around 11:30 it made me sick thinking that he wasn't going where he said he was but instead is with OW. I GUARANTEE IT.

ARGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Headed back to work now. xoxo, A.
Posted By: MynameisMZ Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 02/15/12 01:45 AM
Happy V-day Abbey 19....
Posted By: angel61 Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 02/17/12 04:30 PM
Abbey, Abbey....

Have you read all our posts? Have you thought about them? What are you doing for yourself? you have a very low self esteem, based on your statement

" I guess I am good enough for that".

All of your posts are about your H, and what he did for you. And also, even with all that we have been saying, you are still mind reading and second guessing and guaranteeing what you cannot see.

Again, I ask you, what is the purpose of that? What does it gain you, in your sitch, to think of all of that?

Have you gone to counseling? or call a DB coach?
Posted By: too trusting Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 02/17/12 06:16 PM
Abbey, here is another thing to think about...

make a list of all the things you do for him. like, are you the one to encourage him when he's feeling down? you do errands for him to save him the time and effort? (even though you both work - but you probably do both your own and his errands.) you raised his kids. (ok, they're your kids too, but probably you put a lot more work than he did into taking care of them when they were young, being there for them at all ages, even doing things for them now that they are at college. and he didn't do those things, or not as much, i.e. he gets the benefits of fatherhood without having to do the work.) you give him respectability in the community (he is a "happily married man" not a divorcee.) and you could probably add a lot more to the list. just make a list of why he would be a fool to leave you. even if you don't need it right away, it will do wonders for your self-esteem. and if/when you need it, you will have an answer for him.

and, what does OW do for him? probably very little.
Posted By: Starsky309 Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 04/24/12 01:36 PM
Abbey,

How about an update? How are things going for you? Was reading some back threads from tpc, and saw your name and thought of you, and was wondering.


Starsky
Posted By: abbey1989 Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 05/09/12 04:28 AM
Hi there friends.......hope all is well!

With me, I have seen some changes. H has been home almost every weekend for the last 6 weeks or so. We actually spend time together now working in the garden, cooking and hiking.

My heart still hurts when things pop into my mind! I don't think I'll ever feel very trusting of my H again. I think he knows that.....But we have never discussed it. I do believe he is still in contact with OW (and doing what else I don't know!), but after I left him a message on his "bat phone", he conveniently disconnected that line a few weeks later. He just thought he was so ismart and stealth and that I was stupid. What a liar! Embarrassing really.

We had a long talk about "trust" on our hike on Sunday as it related to our college age children. I wonder if we will ever have that discussion about our own R!

xo, A.
Posted By: abbey1989 Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 05/09/12 04:53 AM
Originally Posted By: Starsky309
Abbey,

This will continue until YOU decide that honesty and fidelity in your marriage is more important than having your flannel nighie laid out, and your deceitful husband making you grilled cheese and coup.

He's playing you, HE knows he's playing you, YOU know he's playing you, and -- most destructively -- HE KNOWS THAT YOU KNOW that he's playing you . . . and yet you allow it to continue.

It's completely up to you. But DON'T expect anything to change.


Starsky


When I re-read some of these posts I just want to hit myself in the head (V-8 style ya know?). Working on some stuff........
Posted By: Starsky309 Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 05/09/12 01:28 PM
Originally Posted By: abbey1989


We had a long talk about "trust" on our hike on Sunday as it related to our college age children. I wonder if we will ever have that discussion about our own R!




I suppose when you're ready, you will. In the meantime, don't expect anything to change from the current patterns.

Don't think that your college-age children aren't learning from this.

When you're ready, we are here, Abbey.


Starsky
Posted By: par4me Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 05/10/12 11:26 PM
If you choose to drive away... be prepared to say, "I am done snooping and chasing my H and his OW. They are free to do what they want and I cannot control that."

Thanks, using this line for myself. Sorry to steal from another post.
Posted By: abbey1989 Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 05/23/12 09:39 PM
Well I looked at the building permit inspection record today.....for OWs house. Guess what? there was an inspection today. Guess whose name was listed as the contact? H's. Guess who denied it when I asked? He did. so I went back to work. Pretty upset. He said his name gets on all kinds of lists. Do you agree that he wouldn't lie unless he had something to hide?
Posted By: kml Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 05/23/12 09:56 PM
So - let's imagine for a minute that you gave me his photo and I went and staked out her building site and got you proof that he is building her house.

What would you do with that information?
Posted By: Starsky309 Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 05/23/12 10:06 PM
Originally Posted By: kml
So - let's imagine for a minute that you gave me his photo and I went and staked out her building site and got you proof that he is building her house.

What would you do with that information?



My guess is nothing.
Posted By: abbey1989 Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 06/01/12 11:45 PM
How do I even attempt to get at the truth, have an honest conversation when all he does is lie and deny involvement with OW? All of my attempts to discuss this have been met with deny deny deny. I am at a loss. how can we discuss what he refuses to admit to?
Posted By: Starsky309 Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 06/02/12 02:09 AM
Abbey,

There is an old Polish proverb which says, "A truly wise man, never warms himself, in front of a PAINTING of a fire."

The rabbit doesn't need to admit to being a rabbit, for the fox to be ready to eat him. A fox is always a fox, regardless of the disposition of the rabbit. cool


Starsky
Posted By: Endeavour Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 06/02/12 06:47 PM
Does it matter if he admits the truth when you know the truth?

He may be lying to you but are you not also lying to yourself?


If you need concrete "can't deny it" proof, then hire a PI. But would that change how you react to him or change your path? If not, then it won't matter anyway.

What do you want, Abbey? I think that is the question that really needs to be answered.

((()))
Posted By: Endeavour Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 06/04/12 08:50 PM
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
Abbey

I don't know his or your financial situation, other possible reasons for carrying on like this, kids, a home, etc

or if he's simply

a serial cheater, who likes to cake eat a LOT, and also feel good about himself.

My question is whether you really read and PROCESSED what we wrote to you?

I didn't feel that way. I didn't feel "heard".

Are you still mulling it over or what?

As far as confronting him, What is there to "prove"? Why bother?

He'll deny/deny/deny. OJ did that with his wife (before he killed her) and with the women he was seeing later. It is a philosophy many adulterers live by.

They will deny a photograph of them in bed w/OW, and say it was photoshopped.

You will not get them to admit what they've done. They will deny it, always.

So please do NOT expect him to own ANY of this.

IF you caught him in bed he'd say it was the first time, "a one time mistake" AND that you were neglecting him so in a way, it's not his fault...it's yours.

Your decision is whether a slice of attention now and then, like a sandwich when you're sick---and all the mind games you two seem to play,

is a marriage.


Do you feel his guilt is somehow empowering to you? Like it's leverage?

See, I don't get that at all.

But I do Hope you feel better.

(( ))


^^^^^ This.

Cheaters lie, otherwise they wouldn't be cheating. They would be in an open M.

Are you going to leave the M if he admits to the A?

Or are you going to continue to ignore the A and go on with life?

See, I think the only reason to get proof is if you're going to do something about it. Let set a boundary for yourself. If you are going to maintain the status quo, then what is the point?

In my opinion, he's not going to admit to the A. Why would he? It has gone on this long and besides, the proof you have already is pretty good.

This is a long-term A. It's a habit at this point. And so is the lying and the deceit.

And even if he does admit it....

You can't control him or his choices but you can control you which is why I ask again, what is it that you want? And are you willing to live like this for 3 more years?

If not, you have to make decisions based on your values and boundaries. If what you're doing right now is not working for you, change what you're doing.
Posted By: too trusting Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 06/07/12 09:12 AM
I think that what she wants is for him to admit the truth and then, as a result, to stop seeing OW. he feels that with the lying and denying he can pull the wool over her eyes and continue to be a "cake eater" with the social advantages of a "stable marriage" and the fun of a fantasy affair on the side. (and I realize that for the cheating spouse, the attraction of the affair is not so much any specific quality of the OP, often the LBS is a lot better person in many ways; but the affair is all fantasy and fun with no responsibilities and that is the attraction.)

and therefore, since the lying and denying are in effect enabling the affair, I think that what Abbey wants is for him to admit the truth and then stop the affair. the question is - if they do admit the past and if they do stop seeing the OW, how do we know going forward that they are now telling the truth, i.e. that they aren't continuing secretly with OW in some way and/or haven't started a new affair with some other OW?

I am throwing this out for all those who have been there & done that. I know there are some who are already divorced and who are saying that this is the only solution - but isn't that like cutting off your nose to spite your face? some participants in this forum have rehabilitated their marriages, and the question is how you can be able to confidently trust the cheating spouse again after what he has done in the past.
Posted By: ndfarmer Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 06/07/12 10:45 AM
I too find myself in a similar situation. But my W would rather divorce me than tell me the truth. Why do I want a M with a woman like that. Even my own son asks me that. I wanted to make M work. I almost hired a PI, but then thought "you dont do that to someone you love". I know its going to be tough for a while but I guess I just need to let her go. Abbey, dont become a doormat like I did. There must be something better out there for us. After 29 years I dont relish the thought of starting over or losing all my dreams. Unfortunately not all situations on this blog have happy endings.
Posted By: Starsky309 Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 06/07/12 02:06 PM
Originally Posted By: too trusting
the question is - if they do admit the past and if they do stop seeing the OW, how do we know going forward that they are now telling the truth, i.e. that they aren't continuing secretly with OW in some way and/or haven't started a new affair with some other OW?

I am throwing this out for all those who have been there & done that. I know there are some who are already divorced and who are saying that this is the only solution - but isn't that like cutting off your nose to spite your face? some participants in this forum have rehabilitated their marriages, and the question is how you can be able to confidently trust the cheating spouse again after what he has done in the past.


It's a fair question, and I can only tell you what I did. I continued to monitor intel ("snooping") and we had a mutual transparency period for an indefinite period of time after she returned to the marriage from her affair. It ended up being about a year, with me checking her e-mail and text messaging less and less over time.

Trust has to be re-earned, and the betrayed spouse needs to be able to feel safe. My wife understood this. About a year in, I gave her a shiny new pink laptop for Valentine's Day, and in my attached card I let her know that it was FREE of keylogging software, and forever always would be, and I thanked her for being open and transparent with me for the past year or so.

I'm from the Ronald Reagan school: "Trust, but verify." cool


Starsky
Posted By: Starsky309 Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 06/07/12 02:10 PM
Originally Posted By: ndfarmer
I too find myself in a similar situation. But my W would rather divorce me than tell me the truth. Why do I want a M with a woman like that. Even my own son asks me that. I wanted to make M work. I almost hired a PI, but then thought "you dont do that to someone you love".



As a man, why would you NOT do everything you could to protect your household, and the wife that you swore to love, honor and cherish and protect?

OM/OW are predators, and they prey upon marriages. Yes, it "takes two to tango," as they say, but I personally saw nothing wrong with doing everything I needed to do to protect my wife and kids from her 29 year old predator.

What would you do if you knew your kids had a drug problem? Doesn't "freedom from unreasonable search and seizure" stop when there is probable cause, and you need to protect your teenager?


Starsky
Posted By: Endeavour Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 06/07/12 09:12 PM
Originally Posted By: too trusting
I think that what she wants is for him to admit the truth and then, as a result, to stop seeing OW. he feels that with the lying and denying he can pull the wool over her eyes and continue to be a "cake eater" with the social advantages of a "stable marriage" and the fun of a fantasy affair on the side. (and I realize that for the cheating spouse, the attraction of the affair is not so much any specific quality of the OP, often the LBS is a lot better person in many ways; but the affair is all fantasy and fun with no responsibilities and that is the attraction.)

and therefore, since the lying and denying are in effect enabling the affair, I think that what Abbey wants is for him to admit the truth and then stop the affair. the question is - if they do admit the past and if they do stop seeing the OW, how do we know going forward that they are now telling the truth, i.e. that they aren't continuing secretly with OW in some way and/or haven't started a new affair with some other OW?

I am throwing this out for all those who have been there & done that. I know there are some who are already divorced and who are saying that this is the only solution - but isn't that like cutting off your nose to spite your face? some participants in this forum have rehabilitated their marriages, and the question is how you can be able to confidently trust the cheating spouse again after what he has done in the past.


Yes, I think that would be the perfect scenario for Abbey. That her H will dump OW and come clean.

But he's a cake eater and you can only be a cake eater if you have a spouse that is allowing you to eat cake.

She can't control her H. But she can control herself.

Besides, if she really wanted proof, she could put a VAR in his truck and then play it for him. Kinda hard for him to dispute that...

But then she would be in the position of making a firm decision and perhaps she is not ready.

As for regaining the trust after an A, as Starsky said, "Trust but verify."

My former cheating H is transparent and I would not have remained in the M if he was not. I simply would not feel safe and I would not choose to stay in a M of three or the possibility of three. That would eat away at my soul and affect my physical and emotional health.

Credibility + Empathy = Trust over time. My H shows empathy for my feelings, and he shows by his actions that his word is credible now. We are still working on the time part.

Also, attitude. My H's attitude has done a complete 180 from the time he was involved in an A.

But still...

Trust but verify... in piecing.
Posted By: Starsky309 Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 06/08/12 02:42 PM
Great post, Endeavour. whistle


Starsky
Posted By: abbey1989 Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 06/13/12 07:15 PM
Wow you guys provide great insight. As of right now I would say that everything "Surface" level is good. But a gal just knows when she is not number one. It has to do with "connection" and I am not talking physical although that would help! I have been the initiator of sex lately, and am shut down 50% of the time..."my stomach hurts must have been the jalapeņos or the good n plentys...." that was last night.

I have really hung in 3 1/2 yrs now. I've done 180s, I have worked on me, gone back to college, gym, hiking, photography, ........nothing makes you feel like *rap though more than knowing that your husband is a liar......right to your face.....and nothing changes. YES we hang with friends, hike, go to ball games, parties, cook, garden, yada yada.........he spends time at home. But something is missing. I know he is seeking emotional and physical fulfillment outside of our marriage.

Not after all this time....not so sure about divorce busting......although maybe we wouldn't still be married if it weren't for all I've learned here. But I am beginning to ask myself "is this all there is for me?".
Posted By: Starsky309 Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 06/13/12 07:46 PM
Originally Posted By: abbey1989


I have really hung in 3 1/2 yrs now. I've done 180s, I have worked on me, gone back to college, gym, hiking, photography, ........nothing makes you feel like *rap though more than knowing that your husband is a liar......right to your face....





I know, Abbey. frown And I would contend that the dynamic is 10x worse when the liar knows that YOU know that he's lying, and it's even been discussed before. Once you get to that "he knows that you know" stage, and it's allowed to go on, it's extremely damaging to the remaining fabric of not only the marriage, but to the betrayed spouse's own self-esteem and even emotional health, I would contend.


Starsky
Posted By: abbey1989 Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 06/14/12 02:35 AM
Thank you folks so much. I don't even know if I have mentioned that my H has been out of work since October. he has been bidding on jobs but in the past he has always landed great projects because of his reputation in the industry.....word of mouth...no advertising. Obviously a different economy these last few years. At the start of this year, he took over the office from me. it was a relief but honestly there is no work so not such a big deal as far as added workload for him.

He has an interesting possible work connection/job offer that he is meeting about tomorrow. He mentioned that "since our kids are grown......he can take a job that might involve travel". I guess we have to do what we have to do to get by......but it was interesting that he didn't ask my opinion on the matter. I know.....I know....

Meanwhile......while making an eighth of his usual salary....for the last 8 months...he is helping ow with her house....for free. Do you see why I go crazy thinking about this?

maybe time spent on her project could have been spent dusting off a resume?
Posted By: abbey1989 Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 06/22/12 01:33 AM
Hi friends.....sitting in the airport........on way home from overnite business trip. Was dreading being gone overnight....worrying for weeks that he and ow would rendezvous...hookup...whatever. So....money has been tight ...we have been staying at home a lot and I have been cooking with many things from our garden....very enjoyable! but then last week I suggested after work one night...hey let"s go to our favorite sushi place they have a 1/2 off sushi happy hour...have off drinks!....and he said "well maybe if we exercise first......it is always about the food". OK....whatever! Flash forward to this week.......I have been out of town and last night H told me he was waiting on a call from a client for a "potential" client meeting up in San Clemente.....but he hasn't heard yet so he was just going to hang out at the coast to see if he got a call. that was 3:45
later he called me and left message that he never got the call for the meeting...(predictable) but that he decided to stay coastal...had a drink and watch the subset. OK that was reasonable. Then he called and left me a message at 7:30 that he had been out and was headed for dinner but would be home LATER. Called a couple of times and he didn't answer. Finally heard from him around 9:30. RIGHT.

So t,oday....my flight leaves at 7:30 and he is supposed to pick me up....and he says he is going coastal again to "drop off plans" to a sub and he "might get a bite ito eat'. Coming from the non-eating food avoidng $ thrifty person.....WTF!!!

Just sayin. BUT I wanted to let you know that I have found some peace at this website
http://www.positivelypresent.com/2011/06...ationships.html

And I am feeling young right now because i just got carded.....ha ha.... I apologize for spelling errors...on my iPad. Enjoy the night! I think it is the solstice!!!!
Posted By: abbey1989 Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 07/21/12 07:18 PM
Hi,

After all this time.........is it strange to say that I just don't care anymore?!!!! WOW!

Took me 4 years to get here....

Did someone flip a switch in my brain? Once I made the decision to stop obsessing about what H was doing, I have been so much happier! And I don't even care. This has been a big month and I have no idea why!

Hope you are enjoying your summer smile
Posted By: nero Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 07/26/12 09:25 PM
hi- i think i'm writing to i'mthemom- i'm nero, new pretty much- was reading your posts- I am sitting here sizzling with anger and insulted to death to think (i'm pretty sure) my H (tho not married- 34 yrs together) is with ow. i can just scream- but what good would it do? how do you guys find the immense inner strength to just keep going on??? i've known for a year- i swear i hate it so badly when i know they're together- she's in another town- he is in one house - i'm in another- different states- he sees her on weekends when he's away- i hate it so much i could croak- don't tho. thought of calling her and telling her what i think of her, the cow - she knew me back in the day - I can't bring myself to do it and give her and him evidence of my pain - what would they do, laugh? make fun of me - don't know. I can't even contemplate spying in case i see them together and might die on the spot . i couldn't bear to look - - some days i don't even want to see his face or hear his voice- but miss my life (we were great together til he began cheating). so- i guess i THOUGHT it was great - i'm having so much trouble telling myself it's all about him and not hurting me. it hurts- he's doing it- he's deciding to do it- blah blah blah. alot of days i'm better and can shove it out of my mind for a bit- some days (today) i'm damn consumed and pissed that i'm nothing and so not important in his life and in his mind. any wisdom? any secret drug that gives me patience and ability to forgive- any anything that might help a poor sap???
Posted By: abbey1989 Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 10/30/12 06:06 PM
Still here....headed out for my yearly weekend with the girls to palm springs. I know that H is still in contact with OW as he is still actively helping her build her dream house. Of course he has never admitted or offered any of this. Interesting now that my son attends the college where she works. That might make their rendezvous a little more risky (or exciting).

Honestly the roller coaster never stops. It has been close to 4 years now. Just sad today.

It's kind of funny because H is always talking lately about Lance Armstrong and what a loser he is for cheating at the sport of bike racing. Cheating for all of those years!

I told him that cheaters always get caught eventually. BAM!
Posted By: kml Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 10/30/12 10:47 PM
Abbey -

First of all - hope you have a great trip to Palm Springs.

Second of all - what's your game plan? Have you decided to just keep waiting out this affair? Or do you have some other endpoint or bottom line?
Posted By: abbey1989 Re: CAUGHT HIM IN HIS LIE! - 10/31/12 03:10 PM
Thanks KML..nice to hear from you. I know I should have a plan. I keep thinking that once her house is done (it will be awhile...at least thru the summer) then he won't have reason to see her. But honestly, I am kidding myself. I have learned over all of this time that I have no control over him or what he does.

When I concentrate on me, and making myself the best person that I can be, I feel better. It lasts for awhile...but then these doubts always creep in. I can honestly say that there is not a single day or night that passes were I don't think about their R and what exactly it is.

Argh! Feel stuck. Everytime I ask if he is helping her with her project he denies. I don't want him to know that I pull up the public website to check the inspection schedule and see his name and phone number as the contact for each new inspection (one just completed last Monday). In the past when I have confronted him, it always turns out badly. He denies, makes me seem paranoid, he tells me that I always think that he's doing something other than what he tells me he's doing. But he is. A fact. Then he won't speak to me for a couple of days. I am just not sure what to say or do anymore.

Will probably try to have a phone chat with one of the DB counselors again. Always feel better after talking with her.
So for now that is my short term plan.

Money has been very very tight. It kills me that he is giving free construction management services to OW. Typically he would charge at least $4k and upwards per month for this type of service provided. We could really use that $$ with 2 kids in college. He typically has two paying projects at once. Now we only have one paying project so we've had to dip into 401k savings for the last year!!!

Sorry....just venting. Anyway, headed off for work. Hope you have a good day!
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