Okay, here's my situation. I've been with her for over 10 years, we've been married for over 7. Her son from her first marriage is 15, I love him as my own--met him when he was 4 and for all purposes I'm his dad.
I love her too, and would like to make it work. The bomb dropped on me on October 30th. I was sitting on the couch next to her watching TV, she was sending an email on her laptop. I looked over and saw her type "I love you too" and click send. My heart sunk. I shut the TV off and asked "who was that to?" She said it was to her aunt, her mother figure in her life (her mom and her don't speak). I challenged her, and then it all came out in a shock to me.
She's been dating her boss and she loves him. They are both about to lose their jobs due to layoffs. She's been very stressed about this for months--the layoff date was decided and then pushed back another month. During that timeframe there have been a lot of happy hours with the coworkers and I personally have had to travel due to work. I got to go to 2 of these after work things in the midsummer, actually met the guy which makes it even worse since I know what he looks like and he's shaken my hand, which is awful. I've been a tad distant in the relationship over the last few months--it's been a steady pace of her complaining about work, and although I thought I was supportive, in retrospect I can definitely admit that there where times when I just nodded into "yes yes yes" without actually hearing her when she was concerned about work. The boss, in the same situation, certainly would be more understanding than myself. Supposedly he is leaving wife and kids as well, they are in "love." At the onset of this discovery I got all panicked and hurt and sad--asking how we can fix this and asking her to come back to me. She cried, and said "there is no coming back" and "my first husband cheated on me and I know that feeling in the pit of your stomach where you never trust the person again." In our marriage, I've made statements like "I can't believe people who need counseling" or "I would never forgive cheating" but now that I'm in the situation, I'm going to admit I'm wrong wrong wrong.
So, now she spends 5-6 nights a week at the other guy's house, and son stays home with me. Son isn't getting enough time with either of us, I've sought support from my friends and family while I come to grip with what is going on. She will show up at home, do laundry, buy groceries for the son, sit around looking for a job and then disappear for the night again, not showing up for another day or two. When she does stay at the house she's sleeping on the couch. We're civil, I ask how she's doing and vice versa. The reality is inside I'm a wreck. I really do want to spend the rest of my life with her, and I want to understand what happened between us.
She's had a tough life, she had her son at a very young age in a house with a mentally abusive mother. She left and married early to escape her mother, then ended up married to the son's biological father, a troubled guy with intense ADHD and the inability to hold down a job. She finally couldn't take the emotional and physical abuse from him, and fled him as well. I fear that her toolkit consists of only pulling the ripcord--it's the first time our marriage has been tough and it's like leaving and rebooting is the solution?
I didn't make it easier on her, in retrospect. When the prospect of her job loss came up she considered starting her own company, a choice that would put considerable financial stress on me. Our finances are separate, partially because I'm the one that pays everything on time and she's the one that lets bills get to near collections before she does anything. This concerned me in starting a company as financial management is a big part of success.
I'm also the cleaner in the home, the one that can't leave a stain on the floor while her and son can sit in a mess and not care. I've gotten to the point where I just take care of it, but she's so sensitive to my years of nagging about it (and I have tried to stop) that me cleaning up anything in front of her produces a mean exhausted look.
Her aunt has taken her side, like all good family members would, but her aunt doesn't have a good track record with men. She's been divorced twice herself, and I've watched her humiliate her then-boyfriend in front of a bunch of people, berating his knowledge.
So my wife has had all this reinforcement that I've been "unsupportive," "incompatible" and that she feels like she's in an empty marriage. This weekend a book about Walk Away Wife appeared on the counter--am I supposed to read this? It's in her usual pipe of stuff--is there a message here?
Her career has been intensely stressful as she's had limited success in job changes. Each job is more of an escape from the previous rather than a move up. She'd paid her dues, but hasn't found the next step. After the bomb dropped on me, I found out a business trip for the current job was actually a job interview in another state 1500 miles away. She hasn't heard about that job yet--it's still possible they will offer to her.
I feel terrible, I thought I was in a successful happy relationship, and we had a breakdown in communication over the last 5 months-the classic "drift into our own things." There hasn't been a day I haven't kissed her goodbye in the morning and said I loved her, up until the bomb dropped. I care deeply for her, and I do want to work through this. It's been 3 weeks of me living without her for the most part. In retrospect I could see she was cutting me off--leaving early to hit the gym, coming home late, avoiding going to bed with me, until I caught her. I suspected a few things a month in advance, but didn't pursue. I work with computers and could have gotten into read her email but didn't because either 1) I'd find something, or 2) I'd not find something and I'd become "that guy."
I see her a couple of times a week, when she makes her pit stops at home. Her job ends on Wednesday, at which time she will have more time at home. She needs support--I was thinking this would all blow over going into the job loss and this was my time to step up and support her during unemployment. We have the financial success, happily, to survive this. Over the years she felt I haven't been helping enough--she brought this up leading up to the pre-bomb, and I made adjustments to what my expectation was from her assistance (starting in late September I pay for everything except our gym membership and our benefits, which are with her company). I think her coming to me about this was too late though for this to matter much.
It feels like she went and had this affair with the other guy in an effort to create an irreversible wedge. I don't necessarily see it as that way. I want to have this conversation with her, to talk about these things, to see if there is a chance we can work through this. I'm not happy without her--she is my sunshine and someone who always made me happy, even if I was blind to what she's missing. I can change, I'm a guy so obvious to her wasn't obvious to me. She has said "no chance" but I really want to get her and me to a counselor. I need to understand if there is a chance, if there is hope, or if there is something else she needs.
How can I get her to the table, to at least communicate? How do I ask, when it seems the ultimatum has already been given down? I cannot walk away from this person without knowing I did everything I could--I made promised to her I never intended to break.
Any insight is appreciated.
AJ
Uhm... you can't get her to the table yet. Not yet. She's all involved with her boss right now. You can't "win" that. The DB'ing gives you diff options, but based on your post, you've got work to do on yourself.
Understand that it's not over until it's over. You're in the infancy of this thing with her. Start with working on you, start with doing the 180 to things like nagging or being a neat freak. Since she's not coming home etc etc etc, you may have to hoof her out to give her the dose of reality she actually needs. OR, you might have to suck it up and wait this thing out.
My H and I had to separate in order to make things come clearer. (As I well know, we'll have to do that again to put a final end to my mess.)
Get BOTH DB books. Also get Not Just Friends by Shirley Glass. It's an eye opening read. BTW, don't show her these books. (I'll explain in a sec) If she's left a book around for you. Get your own copy. READ it. Find out what kind of "advice" she's reading. Knowledge is power here. Read her book, then read YOUR books. Do NOT let her see these books. They are YOUR manual to get through this thing. Did I mention that you do NOT let her see these books YOU need to read? *smile*
I read mine, wrote notes in them, and it's funny now looking back at them again, and writing diff notes this time. It shows what parts of the DB worked, what took time, what didn't work for me, and what parts of "trouble" we've skipped over this time.
As for separating, sometimes the best thing is the BIG dose of reality that they need. If she's stressed, that means she's going to be stressed with him. If they potentially could lose their jobs... more stress. Doesn't sound like a good foundation for them, doesn't it. Don't enforce the ultimatum just yet. Read the books, be NICE (yes it's like having arrows stabbed at you.)... and once you've done that, then decide if you need to kick her out, or wait this thing out.
Abbey
Okay, thanks Abbey. Yes I recognize this is just starting but I'm concerned if she flees to another city I won't have an opportunity. I've already done a 180 on the things that are easy for her to dislike about me--frankly they aren't as important to me as she is. We had discussions about this in the past before all this happened, I've always said my issues were "roommate" issues, not "life partner" issues. Unfortunately I didn't handle it well. She's going to be home a lot more, she's unemployed as of today.
I've read the Divorce Remedy, and unfortunately it's been sitting out so the cat is out of the bag on that one. I'm not really a note-taker so there's no highlights in it as clues.
The book she left on the counter appears marked up, but I don't think it's her who did this, the handwriting doesn't appear to be hers so I think she picked up a used copy. I will seek my own copy. So far I haven't acknowledged it--she's had some piles of stuff on the counters for ages so it's easy enough to pretend I haven't seen it. I will seek the additional book you stated as well.
I wonder if the boss relationship is on the outs already to be honest. She made a comment about being in the house more frequently and said "as a matter of fact more nights as well." I didn't react in any way to that comment. He has his own divorce to deal with, and he's a transplant with his wife & kids in another state. With no job prospect he may have to go home to attend to his personal affairs. He too is unemployed as of today.
Her job offer for the 1500+ mile away job didn't arrive, they passed on her, so she's now facing either severe underemployment or unemployment. Now she's talking about a job that's on 500 miles away, better for relationship with my stepson but still fleeing.
I can suck up and live with her, it's not a contentious relationship from me. It's painful, no doubt, and it stresses me greatly to see her and then watch her head out for another evening not with me, but that's how this stuff goes I guess.
I can be nice, it's not that difficult here for me to be honest. It's very very painful as anyone on this forum is aware of though. I'm not to enforce an ultimatum just yet, but I think my opportunity to get her to talk is going to close very quickly if she's constantly seeking another city to live in. Is it way too early to simply ask her to go to therapy with me? Even so I can begin to understand myself? It's not about solution, it's about understanding.
Thanks again, Abbey.
AJ
AJ, I get the living with this, and being in an emotional place that many (even here) can understand. It's like walking a tight rope.
As hard as it is... I might suggest you resist even making the comments you did about "more nights" too. It's too soon. Don't over sell the "buyer" signs she's making. (I'm a sales person).
Affirm, don't suggest. Show, don't tell. Smile instead and nod. Do something small and simple for her at times like this instead. EG: I'm making a cup of tea, did you want one? If she declines... just roll it off your back. Baby steps. Have a few of her favorite things around. Eg: Lemon tea. Hot chocolate. Favorite cookies or something. Something small. Don't over sell it. Include, don't push.
The ups and downs with the OM will ebb and flow. Be prepared for it. Just when you think you've made progress, you'll feel like you've just been dumped in the puddle.
I *understand* what you're doing and why. I've lived it and as good as the DB books are,...there's no perfect recipe for this. Def read that not just friends book. I'll give you pointers on how to "be" that friend that she seeks... and that's where the love begins to grow again.
Oops... I wish they'd fix the edit thing here. Sometimes our sitchs is something that is hard to understand by even folks here who are in the same boats as us. Sometimes you have to do some very unconventional things in order to get through this, AND to try to make progress. No set recipe. It IS a chess match.
Abbey
Abbey: The part where you said "As hard as it is... I might suggest you resist even making the comments you did about "more nights" too. It's too soon. Don't over sell the "buyer" signs she's making. (I'm a sales person)." confuses me just a little. I didn't say that, she did. And my response was very calm, short of my pupils dilating I don't think she' got much of a response out of me.
Yesterday was insanely tough, it was Thanksgiving without her or the son. I went to my brother-in-law's parent's home. It was warm, there were about 8 of us there, and there was food and football. It was way better than being alone. I was trying to mask my sadness at dinner and pushed through it, and on my way out is when I lost it. My 5 year old niece, who adores my stepson, asked if he was going to be coming over for Christmas. I mustered up all I could do to say "I don't think so sweetie," said goodbye, and pretty much lost it on the way out.
I did ask my wife two nights ago if she would do me the favor of coming to see a therapist with me. I've found a local one that actually cites the DB books on her website. I told her I need to understand. She asked a few questions and wondered if she is seeing her separate from me, and as I understand it we would start out together and then see the therapist separately. My wife got very cold and said "Alex there are things that have been broken for seven years" and alluded to her previous statement that this whole thing is done and over. I responded with "I just need to understand, even if it doesn't change us. I need to understand in order to move forward with me." She said she was supportive of that. I did make a point to tell her this person is a marriage therapist, not a personal therapist, and asked that she still consider going. She still agrees, but I don't think she liked that. I didn't want her to be unclear about what this person does and make her feel like she was being attacked if we go in. As of yet I have yet to make first contact with the therapist. All this might be a little too soon, but..
I'm very worried I don't have much time left. Wife is applying for job all over the country now, desperately trying to find something. Her job is now done, so she's unemployed. She's never not been unemployed for long, and this is very stressful for her. I feel badly--I will do what I can to be supportive, but how can I do this when it means she will get up and move across the country?
Right before the bomb, and continuing yesterday, she began the purge. First in her side of our home office she got rid of piles of old papers. Yesterday when I got home her and son had been there for a while after returning from her family Thanksgiving. She had been putting together garbage bags full of old stuff to purge and her side of the bedroom closet is now the emptiest I've ever seen it since we've been together. It's very distressing.
I'm doing my best to affirm, not tell. She's currently feeling under the weather and I've asked her if there is anything I can do for her, get her some Nyquil, etc. Frankly I would have done the same before the bomb. The area I'm having difficulty but working through is my level of neatness versus her. She's been cooking more to occupy her time, and cooking with her never means cleaning up after cooking, it means pots and pans in the sink for 3 days minimum. I just wasn't raised that way, but I remind myself what is important and I'm learning to blow it off. I wish I had learned that earlier.
I'm just..scared...I'm not going to get a chance here. She's very much like "the decision is made" and at times I feel like she might be just playing along because she doesn't have much for housing options. Of course friends and family say "she's just taking advantage of you" but I view that as a price to pay to try to move forward.
Do I schedule the therapist? She says she's willing to go, but I don't want to push her. At the same time, when I see "apply for job in Chicago and apply for job in St. Louis" on her to-do list, I get very anxious because she could be gone quickly.
Thanks,
AJ
FWIW, my H and I had to separate in order to really miss each other. Don't think that moving away, or out is the end all. It isn't.
Matter of fact, this time round, I'm the one pushing for the separation. NOTHING like a big heaping dose of reality to make the WAS grow their brain back. She's in fantasy mode... life would be great... only if, blah blah.
Get that Not Just Friends book. It explains alot, and you can use the psychology to apply in your sitch if she does get a job elsewhere. The closeness starts happening in Email, texting etc and are wonderful ways to get some space and breathing room whilst building rapport again.
BTW, what brought my H back was "going dark". He was only allowed to phone, and it was I who stressed no relationship talks etc. Funny how when you set those ground rules... when they're ready, they'll plow right through them. Stand tough, say things like baby steps etc. Separation, applying darkness and pulling back isn't something to be afraid of, - and yes, it was the hardest thing I ever did up til that point.
Abbey
I've got the book, and I currently working through it, the DR book, and the WalkOut Woman book she left on the counter (got my own Kindle copy so hers is untouched on the counter). I'm kind of toggling between all 3 books, working on them and myself. Today it's been my work for most of the day. :-)
So what would people suggest on the issue of therapy--she's willing to go for me, do I take her? Remember to this point she's been 100% adamant that there is no saving our relationship, it all seems to be teetering on her finding a job.
Go of course! whatever the reason, it could help... though she seems to be pretty infatuated at this point it might not do much... no one will really know.
But if she is willing to go then do it, no expectations thought... work on yourself.
I will be calling the therapist tomorrow to make the first contact.
This past week developments have been--interesting. The other guy I believe has left town, to deal with his own family/divorce thing I would guess. I don't know for sure, but wife has now been staying in the house steadily for the past week, including sleeping on the couch every night.
I've been working on myself, staying away from nagging, and we've been getting along well. The 500 pound elephant in the room is what's going to happen with us. I don't know if she's still with the guy and it's turned into a distance thing, but I think she still has the attitude that we have too many problems. I'm hoping the therapist will bring that out of both of us. I'm concerned that she's been going through some level of depression, both now and leading up to the infidelity, and that I wasn't smart enough to notice it.
She is now unemployed, seeking jobs that are below her skill set and additional temp jobs. She's not a person to stay at home, so it's going to be tough on her.
Friday I was out of the house for most of the day, shopping and staying at a friends to make progress on the books suggested above. I came back Friday evening and son was playing video games as always at the kitchen table on his laptop, and wife wasn't anywhere to be found. She arrived home shortly afterwards after hitting the gym and doing a quick grocery run. She offered to make hamburgers for dinner, which I accepted. After we ate, I offered to do a pay-per-view movie, a comedy, which she enjoyed. My one stipulation on the movie was that neither of us could sit there with our laptops, a habit we both have when we should be doing things together. She agreed, but had to do "one quick email" which I presume is the other guy.
I enjoyed the movie, we sat on the couch next to each other. I didn't touch her, but my gosh it was almost more than I could handle, I so wanted to cuddle up with her. I kept my slight distance, and enjoyed the movie. She wasn't feeling well (cold or slight depression, I can't tell) so I suggested after the movie that son go to bed and me do the same. I went upstairs, she stayed on the couch.
Saturday I woke up before her, which is very very strange. I crept downstairs and got my breakfast, did a little reading, and then went back downstairs to get my gear and head to the gym. She had awoken, and looked a a little unwell. I expressed my concern, but not acting needy or overbearing. I headed to the gym for a 2 hour workout. I got home and she had been cooking--she takes up cooking whenever she is bored and she's been steadily making cookies, brownies, etc. for the past few days. She's taken to cleaning up more than she ever has, and I've absolutely done nothing to criticize her cleaning like my bad habit of the past--this simply isn't as important as us coming together.
Saturday afternoon I spent the day away with family then came home, ordered pizza to share with son (she doesn't eat pizza due to food allergies) and we watched several of our old TV shows on the Tivo. I sat sideways next to her on the couch and she even playfully tickled one of my feet. I'm very confused about this, again I played it cool. Part of me wonders if I'm just being played so she has a place to be until her next job offer comes.
Today she headed out to see her best friend for breakfast, a thing she's done for years. I encouraged her to go--she needs to see her friends for sure. We had some talk about me calling the therapist tomorrow. She's in, but I am so concerned that she's going to feel like I'm attacking her by taking her to someone who is a marriage therapist. I think we both need help that a 3rd party could assist with. I don't know. I get mixed signals from her, and I think she's confused as well. I think she will go back to the infidelity and say it's not a repairable thing, because her first husband did that to her and she never got over it. I don't think so, but again we get back to her thinking and seeing me as the person she once loved.
I'm still working on me, still being strong, and following the DB and especially DR books. I believe we can get through this, but I can't push it on her.
So here I am, probably too hopeful at this point. I'm probably going too fast, setting myself up for too much pain, but again if she gets a job offer in another state she'll be off, and I want to be there to help her meet her dreams. I really screwed that part up this past summer, and I pray that it can work out for us.
AJ
Slow down AJ. She's still got OM in her hair. Take it very slow. Don't worry about the occasional touch though - the tickly foot thing for example. Touch makes bonds without the other person even being aware of it. Predators (OW, OM, etc use it to gain trust when they're seeking to "steal" your spouse from you.)
What's wrong with you going to the therapist yourself first? Maybe some extra insight why you need to be so tidy etc will help. Ever thought of leaving YOUR dishes in the sink?
Heh heh, nothing wrong with me seeing the therapist alone first, of course.
I know it's moving kind of fast, it's so strange. We just put up the Christmas tree, the whole group all 3 of us. It feels nice, but sad at the same time.
To be honest, I'm not that much of a neat freak, it's more of her and I out of sync rather than me being obsessive about it. I do leave dishes in the sink, there's some in there right now from yesterday, and I don't have any compulsion to deal with it.
I'll slow down, more reading to do. It's just super confusing the mixed signals. Thanks for the input on the foot thing.
The first therapy session is scheduled for Wednesday. She is going.
I've never been to therapy in my life before. So this shall be interesting.
Okay, went to the marriage counselor.
During the meeting the therapist asked her about the OM, and she said she's not going to stop the relationship with him. He's currently back in his family/current wife's city for the holiday and alluding to him returning in the near future. The therapist asked her if this was going to be a long distance relationship and what her plan was, and she responded that they are looking for work together and will move to whatever city. Keep in mind this affair probably started all of 5 months ago by my best estimate.
This is so ridiculous it's hard to put into words. She's leaving me because 1) I've been hard on her about participating in cleaning the house, yet I have walls and furniture covered in petroleum jelly, mirrors covered in makeup, and she blow dries her hair at the kitchen table and hasn't run a vaccuum cleaner in 3 years, 2) I didn't immediately support her decision to start her own business--yes yes I was selfish and didn't want to make sacrifices, but come on I realize that was a mistake and it would be good for both of us for her to pursue that, 3) she thinks we have incompatible intimacy--our frequency requirements are different and 4) her perception that our finances, separate, we're never fair to her. Every time she brought this up in all years of marriage we adjusted, and the last time it came down to her not giving any money for assistance on household costs.
The therapist zeroed in on something that I've been saying all along, but not to her--her toolkit for dealing with things is to flee (or more specifically, cut herself off). The therapist gave her some food for thought--the skill of withdrawing that she learned in dealing with her mother as a child is not a skill that will serve her in the adult world. I was almost shocked that the therapist was that straightforward. And it cuts straight to the heart of the problem. Her mother was horrible, abusive, and this is how she handled things with her, 16+ years ago.
So she is planning to leave me for a guy that she cheated on me with, who is her boss, from another city, who is leaving his wife and two kids, to escape a me who is willing to work on those things he's made mistakes on. This man she's leaving loves her son as his own.
Considering she's gone 11 months with no new job looking before she lost this one it could be months before she finds anything.
I've asked her for time, to just slow down on all this. Even the
therapist said the odds of her relationship with this other person is very low--I'm wondering if a little time will bring her to her senses.
For now she will live at the house, but I suspect if the OM comes back, she will be spending little time at home. If that happens I may have to get hardcore and ask her to leave. I'm almost at the point now where I will start asking her to pay for her
half of everything. She's always says it's unfair, but in the therapy I told her the exact amount of what our monthly costs are, and she said how much she pays to the therapist. Her contribution is about 1/3 to 1/4. Now I understand she picks up stuff for our son and her student loans, so I fail to see how this is unfair. Since Sept I pay for it all, even picked up the tabs for her car ( I did that 24 hours before I found out about the affair, isn't that great?).
So, Abbey you called it, she's got OM in her hair big time.
I need some patience here, of course, so thank whoever reads this for allowing me to rant a little here.
AJ
AJ... patience is the big call of the day. Often, you'll say small things that somehow penetrate, when you least expect it.
You may have to play some hardball with her, if/when the OM comes back into the picture. BUT... it's something that others (Including me) have used in the past very effectively. So much so, that although I feared it the first time, like crazy. This time, I'm actually wishing I could fast forward to the "dark" separation period. Amazing what reality DOES to these folks when they're faced with their own choices head on.
Chin up, you're doing fine
Thanks Abbey, hope you're right. She retreated from her mother as a child, retreated from her first husband who abused her, and her toolkit with me is retreating. I've never been abusive, just insensitive and stupid.
I will push my chin upwards and carry on.
thanks!
AJ
What might help you... is looking at a book by Mort Fertel called Marriage Fitness. I took both this book and the DB books and used bits and pieces of them together. (Because my H had some issues with me) DB dark for example wouldn't have worked until I had a chance to show him what he would really miss.
Take bits and pieces and tailor them to what you think/hear from your C sessions and work them
Well, she really won't go back to marriage counselor with me. She told me "she can't help the way she feels." I find this all very confusing, actually, at this point.
You answered your own question... TIME. Time is in this instance your friend. Go "dim"... be pleasant but don't engage. Or ask her to leave. (If you're ready).
Fry pan in the head does wonders. She wants to flee... make her. Give her a taste of what her life will be like without you.
I suggest you go dim first though. Sometimes it's enough.
Well, the affair continues but at a distance. It's all email, text messages and phone calls. Very frustrating as she does some of this in my presence.
I asked her to go see a counselor without me, because I think she might have some issues to work through without me (her mom was abusive, her first husband was abusive, but I'm not!!!). That was today. I told her I'd pay for it if it helped. This whole thing doesn't make sense. Her response was a very vague "Alex, I can't help how I feel."
So I now wrestle with frequent anger that I do my best not to show. I'm angry she doesn't try, I'm angry she just lives in the house with no real thought, she's just turning me into a roommate. I don't know if I can can dim, or push her out. There's the son--he goes to school in this town, and she's unemployed and using up severance. She's been bringing home groceries and cooking, which is very nice and welcomed. It was something she didn't have time for with work and a ... cheating on me I guess. So it's something she does to pass time and to contribute to the home, but other than that and a gym membership she's not paying for anything.
So I crank up the patience and wait. I think the affair is growing fonder now that it's virtual as they try to figure each other out. We still spend some time watching tv, etc, and son is oblivious otherwise. I got kinda mad inside yesterday when they started talking about her family's annual Christmas white elephant gift exchange, a real highlight of going to her family's place at Christmas. This is something I've done for 8 years, and they just discussed it in front of me with zero sensitivity that I'm not invited. Do I call her on the carpet on that or man up and move on?
So frustrating in every direction. I would like to sleep a normal night again. /sigh. I'm afraid that going dim would just push her away and she would never come back, I just don't see it working with her personality. Her toolkit consists of "run away."
AJ
AJ, I don't know what to tell you. I've been listening to mine tell the OW he loves her while I can hear him. Duh. I dunno, I think you have to harden your heart to make it through this. And believe me when I say this. One minute my heart is hard, the next it's melting the the front of my chest. It's a process you have to work on in order to survive this.
She's just in her own head space and logic is NOT going to work with her, nor is counseling at this point. She's in full blown selfish mode and best thing you can do is put on the flame retardant suit. She actually will have VERY little recollection of the angst, pain and damage she's doing right now. Sad but true.
I know how fearful you are about dim/dark. We have ALL had that fear. Esp when they have issues like: run away, or complaints that you the LBS was distant, etc. BUT... it works. I'd try nice til it makes you bleed then pull back hard. It's a way to make them notice. And they will notice.
Right now, mine is in moments of clarity mode. It's HARD not to chase, hard not to reach out... but I wait for him to come to me for any kind of contact. He comments that he doesn't like it when I ignore him. (It's ok to tell someone they love her, IN FRONT OF ME, mind you)... I think you get the idea. *smile*
Dim/dark was the hardest thing I ever did. EVER. It was the hardest, but yet the most satisfying and self sufficiency building of myself that I have ever done. I learned a lot about myself, I learned a lot about my spouse, and I learned a lot about just what I'm made of. You can do this... which btw, is for you anyway... YOU need that to survive. Dim is for you, to stop the crazy making she's inflicting on you.
And btw, you can switch gears as needed if she responds to it. If she chases, then reward the good behavior, go back to dim when it's not good behavior.
Cheers
Abbey
I agree, dim is it. Be detached and ....if it helps.....her friend. Not her best friend.
As for the Christmas thing...make a plan to do something fun and exciting for you. They are being jerks! Shame on them....what's THAT about anyway? Do tell.
As for the Christmas thing...make a plan to do something fun and exciting for you. They are being jerks! Shame on them....what's THAT about anyway? Do tell.
Her family has this tradition of doing this chaotic version of the white elephant gift exchange. You know the one where everyone brings a piece of crap (or something desirable too!) that's wrapped, and they share. The family variation is to use 2 cups with a pair of dice Yahtzee style, roll them, and if you get a pair of doubles you get to pick an unopened gift or steal one from someone you want (swap your crap for the stuff they have). It's a riot, we do it for like 3 rounds of 5 minutes each, and it becomes a battle for the iTunes gift card where everyone wants to get rid of the ceramic rooster. :-)
Question for those of you following this thread--do I buy her a Christmas gift? My tendency is to get her >something< but nothing as elaborate as I have in past years (which has included everything from a new smartphone to diamond earrings).
Dim for me, by the way, has been being gone 2-3 nights a week doing my own thing (not dating, but spending time with friends or shopping). She's only getting minor dosages of me during the week. Last week I took her to lunch which surprised her. Conversation was forced, it was kind of uncomfortable.
She's still unemployed and growing more anxiety about it every day. I empathize, offer as much help as I can, but when I see resumes going out to cities hundred or thousands of miles away, it's pretty tough.
AJ
As tough as it is, sometimes the distance and separation IS the way we have to go. Kicking them out of the nest, making them LIVE their reality is what gets their brain flowing again. As hard as it is to see or think that she might just move away completely, don't count that as the final time on the mat. It can be the straw that break the alien camel's back... and finally brings them back.
Also LOOK happy. Unhappy people will get drawn to the happiness. Smile til it kills you if you must. It does work.
Abbey
Alex I just finished reading your thread and I agree go Dim. I am in the same sitch myself. I moved out 8 months ago and now we split time with our kids. My W started with the OM over the summer, but were flirting for the previous months. I too neglected my wife by working 2 jobs.
I just took my kids to the store to buy her a xmas gift and I did buy something small. We got photos of the kids done and I bought her a frame for some of them. We are still friends and need to keep this amicable for the holidays.
Good luck
Well, we had an argument yesterday. She has another job interview in a city 800 miles away, and I've figured out that the OM is in this city. She's going next week for two days, and pretty much told me I was watching stepson while she was gone. He's 15 and I argued with her saying "are you asking me or are you telling me?" and her response was "he's fine, he can take care of himself. He rides the bus to school and can make his own microwave meals."
I got mad, and it all came out. I told her the other guy was a loser, that I was the guy to get her to her dreams. I told her I had sent an email to my sister the day she got her layoff notification that she was starting her own company and that I was excited about it. She said "well you didn't act that way when we discussed it" and I said "yes yes and for that I apologize." She went back into this "it's been 7 years and it's never been fair" which has been this speech I've been getting the last 3-4 months, yet never got in year 6,5,4...
I told her I love her and that I didn't love her I would have kicked her out of the house already. She said "we're married and I have just as legal right to be here as you." Then I said she probably should start writing some checks then for her half of the house ,and her response was she was "righting the financial imbalance we have had for 7 years."
I'm about ready to give up, she's gone insane. In our marriage I paid for 75% of everything most of the time, so I don't know what she wants or would have wanted. I got mad and said all this is justification, she needs therapy and she's lying to herself.
I probably screwed up here but I said some things I felt were true. Unfortunately I wasn't able to self-censor well as I'm stuck at home with the flu, so I had to endure being in the house with her as he calls and she has a phone interview in another state. My filters were --- weak.
AJ
Alex, you like I may have to push them away in order to fix the mess. Her being out on her own, will force her into reality.
The other guy also has obligations from his previous relationship, so he won't be able to lavish money on her, and keep her in the way she wants. Then the spin cycle will start.
Her disregard for her son is quite disturbing.
Abs
Well she left this morning at 4:30 am for her flight to the other city where the job and the OM most likely is.
Last night she asked if I would take son to school early today for his extracurricular activity, and I said yes. She said thanks and I said "I'm doing it for son." I came home late after having dinner with friends and interacted with her for all of about 20 seconds. After that I just went to bed, no goodnight, nothing.
I'm quite pissed at her actually. I believe the marriage, a difficult one, is a promise that should be at least worked on before just bailing on it. Her comments to me have been "I can't help how I feel" just madden me greatly. This isn't high school and we didn't date for 6 months, we've been together for 10 years.
It's like she's pushing me to make the move towards the big D. Do I get a lawyer to understand how to protect myself? She is still making >zero< effort. It's all about her her her, her career, her new man, the son is ignored, it's all madness.
AJ
They are in full on selfish mode. FULL ON. It's actually quite amazing to stand back and look at them through that lens. Their selfishness, their self absorbed behavior and attitude makes it really look like they've been abducted by aliens.
The fog DOES lift,... but only once the reality of how UN-rosy their decision turns out to be. Harden your skin for this ride, it's the only way to survive it.
*hugs*
Abbey
Alexj,
I feel the same anger today. I know Abbey is right, but it doesn't make it any easier to cope.
I guess I just keep telling myself that hopefully our lost spouses wake up...and if they don't, we don't deserve or want them in our lives anyway.
I think there's some hope in the fact your W isn't pushing for the D. I would give this some more time if you can bear it.
I also saw your question on Xmas gifts. My H assumed we were exchanging, I told him that I assumed we weren't. We haven't revisited it yet, but today I'm angry about what he's getting OW and how I've been paying for their dates and vacations. I hate how everything feels ruined by their behavior.
Hang in there and know you aren't alone in how you feel.
Once Christmas is over... all of our emotions will calm down a little.
I know the anger, and depression aspects only too well. Even when things are going "ok"... I still want to yank my damn hair out half the time.
The second, third, last "fiddle" issue that we all have to feel and deal with, also takes ages to go away.
That feeling of: If ONLY you would put in HALF of the energy HERE... that you put out for the other person... things wouldn't be were they are. Ya know?
It gets better, it gets worse, then it gets a little better again.
I think most of us will be glad when ho ho ho season is a faded memory.
Abbey
Thanks Abbey! I have 2 days of no interaction with her while she's spending it with the OM, so I can relax a little in my own house for once.
AJ
Try to enjoy the you time. It gets so easy to get sucked into their vortex. The break is something although is hard, does give you your own sanity break too.
Abs
Yep, she's back from her trip now, claiming she wants to find a job locally even though her interview went well. Wonder what that means--OM locally? OM gone? Reality? No idea I guess.
So the next few days I'm focusing on having a holiday with my family (parents, sister and her family).
Happy holidays to all, and if you're in the "new situation" like me a big reassuring hug to you.
AJ
Contact (daily) with the OM continues. She's now sitting 5 feet away from me sending him emails and calling constantly. She went over on her cell bill this month to the tune of $350. She is paying it, but it's creating a spot where I'm worried--my name is on the bill.
We hang out okay, but I see her lying repeatedly to me about everything--she says her aunt is calling when it is him, etc. She living downstairs still and cranking the heat which causes my upstairs to roast (where I sleep) and the gas bill is going to be insane. What in the world do I do here?
AJ
Okay here's the latest.
I got a little angry about the constant contact with the OM, especially on the cell phone, so I finally contacted a lawyer about a divorce. I'm not interested in filing, but she's making no real effort to cut off the relationship with the OM. The words that resound in my head from a previous argument are "I can't help the way I feel" which is a tad ridiculous. I want a resource I can go to when/if she files.
This past week was weird, she's still stressed about not finding a job, and her plan of just up and moving away with OM fell through when the jobs weren't there. As of Thursday she was all upset as she had a good line on a 5 month temp job that they gave to someone else. She was tearing up about it telling me, and although supportive there was a side to me that kept thinking that "karma is a bear." Nevertheless I kept being supportive. I suggested she consider her next therapy session, because I think all this is still some other underlying issue. I don't think she is being completely true at her therapy sessions either, but I'm hoping if she goes a 2nd time (she's only done one) she starts to communicate about what her real underlying issues are.
Friday she got a followup call from the same job, saying the first candidate had backed out. She's excited of course, and the job interview is tomorrow. She now feels she doesn't need therapy as it's a lot of money to just tell her how she's depressed about not having a job (sheesh, never mind crapping on her husband). She got another call for another position and has an interview in a couple weeks (her birthday in fact). This is a permanent and high paying job, which she thinks she doesn't have the best chance at, but it's with the same company that laid her off and they have her employment history and references internally, so I think that's a good sign.
I met with the attorney on Friday just to go over what my options are, the risk of holding on. I still want to see if we can make this work, but I can't just sit here not knowing my options. We hung out Friday night, watching TV and I took her to dinner. We had a nice time, it wasn't quite as forced in conversation as it's been in the past. We got home and were both tired, so after a little more TV I went upstairs to bed and she stayed on the couch as always.
Saturday was me up and getting ready and heading to the gym. She also showed up at the gym, getting there when I was about halfway through my workout. I ended up on the machine next to her, but we were both in our own little worlds (which is typical for a workout). Headphones on, etc. She ended up leaving before me, I told her I'd see her at home. When I got home she wasn't there so I figured she was at the grocery store as she typically doesn't roam around in her gym gear all day. During this timeframe I think she had a call with the OM. They seem to call each day around noon for about 30 or more minutes. I wonder what they can be talking about with this much time, and I still have no idea where the guy is at. He's obviously not local, and she seems to be more willing to interact with me. Her cell detail I have access to--it's my account actually though she is reimbursing me, and the OM didn't contact her on Christmas day which I find odd.
Saturday after we both got cleaned up I suggested she join me for a trip to the local mall, and she agreed. We went to lunch, and she picked up the tab, something she hasn't done in about 3 years. I have no idea why she did this, but I was thankful. At the mall we kinda went our separate ways in some stores, in fact it was pretty much how we would hang out normally before the OM entered the picture.
I kinda feel like a sucker here though, she's basically living off me--the only thing she contributes to my life financially is the grocery and cooking she does, and I'm spending more time with friends so I'm only home 3 nights a week or so. It's a roommate situation, and I am concerned that she doesn't have any picture of a future with me in any romantic way. As I sit to her and look at her I just want to reach out and touch her, but I don't, and she doesn't initiate any physical contact with me. It's like she's just putting up with me until her job situation is rectified so she can comfortably take off. There is no indication anywhere I can tell she's initiating divorce proceedings--she's too wrapped up in work search and finance management. She's very unorganized so I think if she was filing or thinking about filing there would be some evidence somewhere--she is the type of person that has notes on the back of whatever envelope she found last, and then she searches for an envelope for 2 weeks ago and finds one from last week without the note she wanted, so I don't think there would be effort on a divorce without some evidence.
The son is pretty much removed from the situation. He's 15, spends most of his time immersed in his online games with mostly school friends. He eats dinner with us sometime, and I'm not spending as much time as I'd like with him but neither is she. This part is kinda sad, I talk to him and we have a good chat but that's about it.
So I'm in a holding pattern. I've decided I won't file for a divorce because I still love her, but she's not doing anything. I've tried to go dark, and it's nearly impossible for me to do. The fact she will engage and talk to me (and share details about herself, her friends, her life) is all very strange. She's really leading 2 lives here, and I don't know how she can reconcile that.
Am I stupid or what here?
AJ
AJ, beyond all the DBing, you have to go with, what is working and what isn't. Is being nice to her working on some level? I mean she is still engaging you.
I know with my H the first time, I had to engage him first, in order to cut him off. That might be the way you have to go. Be nice, get your ducks in a row legally, and then push birdie out of the nest once she's had some of the benefits of your niceness. The only way she'll miss it, is if she's had a taste of it in her wacked out state. It's hard to do this, esp since there is no guarantee that this will work. But at least you can say, you did both sides of the coin, if it doesn't work, and can start to rebuild if you need to. BTW... mistakes from us at this point aren't as crucial as we often think. Because they're alien abducted... the don't remember a lot of what happens anyway... so you get a few mulligans even if you slip up here and there.
cheers
Abs
Well, I was informed this morning as I'm leaving that she will "be home late every night this week." I asked if this meant that I would be taking care of son by myself and she said she'd be home, it would just be late.
This means the OM is in town, and since it's just for the week it smells like he's job interviewing in town, even though he's been out of town.
She has a job interview today as well, it's a lonnnnng commute from our house so I don't know what it means if she gets it.
So this week I will be dark kinda by default. This is the first real change in the situation now in almost a month. Ugh.
AJ
Well, confirmed. He's back in town visiting. She wrote down a flight number on a notepad and took off for the evening. A little quick flight tracking and I determined he was coming in from the direction I suspect he's in.
She stayed out all night, came home at 6:30 this morning to take son to school. I got up and was in the shower when they left and I took off before she got back, just didn't feel like interacting with her. The double life continues, and her job interview went well so she's more bold about leaving me. It goes in these flows where she's nice if her options are limited but otherwise I'm to be avoided.
The disrespect here to me as a person is getting to be more than I can take. I wasn't perfect, but c'mon.
AJ
Okay, advice from the crew here would be appreciated. Here's the latest:
Nothing, or very little, has changed. She is living on the first floor, me on the second floor, and she continues to search for a permanent job. She has a poorly paying temp job, I think. I have gone as dark as I can, pretty much coming and going and not having much interaction with her. She seems to have caught onto this and she makes a point to include me in dinnertime meals.
Her birthday is Wednesday--do I give her a card, a gift, what?
I think she needs therapy--this existence of "I can't help how I feel" over her affection for the Loser is so childish--we haven't had any conflict in over a month, though she takes every chance to be angry at me she can. I cleaned my bathroom, and she got mad about it. She finally cleaned the downstairs bathroom, her own domain-that I don't use-after the toilet was not cleaned from November 1st. She did this last week. I cannot be considered a nitpicky cleanliness person when a toilet used daily is not cleaned for 2.5 months. This is no exaggeration.
Anyway, do I buy her a gift for her birthday, or continue being ultra dark by not doing it?
- AJ
Sometimes the LRT works so well that the WAS pushes even harder to justify their decision to leave, and this can be anything that is considered as "testing" you. I have seen these manipulation attempts myself a few times with my wife. And I think you'll find in your situation that she is taking extremes to cover her own hurt feelings about leaving you.
You must not give in and must take the higher route every time. That means not falling for her games and never allowing yourself to get overly emotional in front of her. Anything you do to create contempt will hurt your chances so make the extra effort to stay strong even when you're hurting more than ever. Make it very hard for her to leave the "good guy" that gives her space and respects her decision to leave.
About the birthday....
Go ahead and get her a birthday card that isn't sentimental and sight it "Happy Birthday, 'your name'". You can even slip in some money or a gift card if you see fit but nothing that can be considered trying to buy her love. I'd put a limit of $50 if you think that's ok or depending on your situation nothing at all. It's up to you if you want to just call her but since she lives with you a card will do better. Though, I tend to believe turning the other cheek and giving and making a slight sacrifice without need for anything in return will set you apart and have the other person want to give you something for for your effort. I have done this before long ago with an ex just out of the goodness of my heart and it did bring her back.
-good luck
Thanks NSweet,
Your suggested approach with the gift is about the direction I was headed on instinct, a non-romantic fun card with a gift card in it. I'm not buying her love anyway.
I'm still working on the high road, it's just weird now as she's taken us to complete roommate level in existence. I didn't commit to a roommate, I made a promise to a wife. /sigh
Still struggling with this, but every day I try.
- AJ
So what's the problem then? You still have your wife living with you do you not, and given you situation you're doing better than you think. Let me prove that to you....
Your wife could have moved out long before now but she didn't. She could have filed a restraining order based on false accusations but she didn't. She could have cleaned out your house, sold her rings, screwed every guy you hate, and taken every cent out of your account leaving you to never see her again...but she didn't.
In fact I'm betting your wife still does small things for you that go unnoticed that she doesn't have to. Things like making eye contact and cleaning up after her self when she doesn't have to.
So what's the problem if wife is keeping you at arms length and tossing you crumbs once in a while. You're still getting a taste of her but you want more. But you're never going to get it if you can't delay your gratification and "act as if" it's no big deal she won't tell you how she feels or open up and tell you she is wrong and how much she really loves you. And if you try to get her to give you anything more before she is ready you're only going to be seen as chasing her and breed contempt for yourself.
However, if you make the small sacrifices to treat her as a friend no matter how badly she treats you even if she doesn't deserve and give her a card for her birthday or clean her dishes without and need for a reward in return, you'll get more in return.
But first you need to let her know you accept that you are no longer a couple and agree with her feelings, then accept the place your in yourself. You're never going to get anywhere with her if you can't get rid of your need to get anywhere with her. If she talks to you, that's great. If she wants to storm around the house and criticize you for things, then let her because you know she's not being her self and just letting off steam.
The reason this works is because it's unnatural to not defend your feelings and be so confident and unaffected by her. It would feel really good to be "right" and agree with your emotions when your hurting right after she says or does something to upset you. You'll want to storm around and raise your voice to curse her out, but if you can seperate your emotions from your thoughts and think to yourself "how would acting like this make me look to her" then you can 180 and rise above it all to break even the strongest expectation she has of you.
Right now that expectation is that you're still needy and only doing this to win her back. If you find that sense of confidence you lost and let go of your addiction of expecting more commitment from her and just accept her as non needy friend you can beat this. You know that this neediness is getting you nowhere and you're going to have to give her the distance she needs now or be ordered by a judge to give it to her later so why not start now.
Last thing I can say and it's not going to be easy,is that there was something about you that your wife didn't like and she couldn't take this anymore so she emotionally checked out, but you already knew this. The hardest thing I ever had to do was accept this part and know, not think, that I was a s****y husband, but like you there is something in me that keeps her wanting to talk to me and come around. Just like you I couldn't take this at first and wanted to place the blame on her but the sooner I realized my own faults and accepted them I found I made the best progress with my DR/DB efforts. Now I work a little each day on improving my own faults and turning myself into someone I can look up to. It is the hardest thing I have ever had to do but the most rewarding to know she is second guessing her decision to leave me and still cares.
You can beat your divorce and get her back if you are willing to keep working on it and keep hope alive.
Much of what you say is true, NSweet. And yes I have the tendency to defend myself here, for sure. I'm being patient, and very much resisting getting angry with her (I've been very even keeled over this whole thing).
I should point out she does the escape thing to make all major life decisions, every job she has left to get out of the job, taking the very next thing she found only to discover the next job was as bad or worse than the last one. She left home to escape her mother, she left her first husband to escape him, and I think a big part of the affair was to create a "no turning back" scenario with me, which I didn't easily give her.
I take it one day at a time. Some days are better than others--the anxiety of seeing her isn't there as much anymore, and I'm living my life to be a better man.
Thanks--I have read and re-read what you've written several times. Hard truth is still the truth.
- AJ
Please forgive me if this has been discussed before. I've read this whole thread last night and over and over I kept thinking about one thing. The boy.
In our day to day trouble we usually forget about the waves we set off and who they rock. During the trouble my wife and I are going through one of the biggest hurts are my children - one being my step daughter. I'm deeply aggravated by the thoughts of them being torn to pieces by what may happen.
Again please don't take this the wrong way because you may in fact be building a relationship with him through this. Which I think would be awesome. Do you know what's going on in his mind? He may be hurting a lot. Feelings of total abandonment. This will shape who he becomes. I know! Believe me, I know. A lot of who I am today stems from a father who basically lives his life away from us as a drug addict.
To me, and I could be wrong, this young man is left out of the picture. And I only feel this way because I feel I can relate to him in a way. Only if I'm reading it right, however.
This could be your chance to shine - as a true gentleman. Regardless of where this boy is in days, months, years to come, you could help him develop skills that will greatly benefit him. And ultimately benefit his family. This also could play crucial in your current relationship with your wife. Developing a relationship with this young man could show your wife a new you. Even though this young man doesn't show it he may need someone grounded in his life more than anything. He could be drawn deep into confusion and his only outlet is being with himself and entertainment.
Really I only say this with a warm heart. I'm not bitter or upset in an angry way about this. I only fear for him because I've been dealt the same hand when I was younger. Years ago, I was a youth leader and I could see the trouble in so many young kids eyes as their parent fought their fight and forgot who else was in the ring with them. Some kids were inflicted by such terrible blows that I don't think they'd ever recover. But you wouldn't see it until they really learned to open up. And teenagers are some of the toughest to open up - teenage boys more than girls.
Good luck in all you do.
Yes, I definitely have been working on the relationship with the boy, but as of last night, I think I blew the whole thing.
I went opposite of the DB route. I couldn't help myself. It's been a stress just living in the same house with the "what is going to happen" factor.
She informed me she was going off to another city again for a job interview, one where the guy is also interviewing and I just lost it. So much for her plan of getting a job locally (a job predicated I think on him getting one locally that fell through) Everything came out. At one point the conversation was yelling, another it was crying, other times it was civil.
She's given up on me entirely, and well, I'm not sure I can put any more energy in this. She decided unilaterally that we're not compatible and decided that months before I caught the affair. She figured I would just leave if I found out about an affair, and she was a little shocked that I didn't want what she wants. I think she was counting on that to make it easier on herself.
She flew out this morning, I didn't sleep all night. The best thing that came out of this is that something is happening, and the cold war is probably coming to a close. In the end however I doubt she's going to be my wife, even though I told her I am willing to do therapy with and without her if we both work on our issues. I told her she's intelligent, driven, physically beautiful and has the qualities I look for in a person in my life --and that I really do want to make it work. I did not beg, however. Pretty much anti-DB at this point, but emotions took over.
The things she doesn't like about me are things I'm wiling to work on, she is not. I attacked and defended myself, she didn't want to have this argument, saying things like "this shouldn't be so hard" and my response was consistently "this is where you work to make a marriage work." She kept saying "I don't see it, I just don't anymore, I don't have the energy" and my constant rebuttal was "but I didn't know and for that I'm sorry." She thinks the new guy "gets her" and I never did, again stretching the last year of her disappointment into "this has been a problem for years." I can't work on a problem for years if I don't know it's a problem.
Son is at the grandparents house for the weekend, and anything I tell him about his mom has gotten back to her. I am NOT playing him against her, I told him he needs to contribute to the house by picking up his bedroom--and you have to realize she's let him have fermenting orange peels in his bedroom so it was starting to smell--and he told her I asked this and that got extrapolated back into my "neatness fanaticism."
She claimed she feels constantly guilty and sorry for what happened and that I didn't deserve what she did. Okay I guess, what am I supposed to say to that?
All I can do now is let time hopefully heal this. She will file now for a divorce the second any job offer comes, she's only been staying with me because she doesn't have the funds to go, and she said she would have moved out ages ago if any of her job opportunities come through. Her original plan was to get this first job from my original post and just bail with minimal notice. Unfortunately the new employers just haven't agreed with her plans yet.
*sigh*
AJ