Forgive me if this has been brought up many times here--I have been aware that my H uses porn, and we have always had what I thought was a sex-starved marriage (10 times a year or less).
I am not *against* porn, per se, if the R is otherwise healthy.
I have had a C that said it is cheating, and then I have had a few friens that say it's not. I like the "hard hitting" approach that goes on over here (that is why I'm asking here, and not in the SS forum--they have a different approach that I have tried now for about 5 years.lol. It ain't working!)
My H has become increasingly disrespectful, and as of now, it's been 5 months since he's even touched me. A 180 for me is to stop being a doormat and create some sort of boundary.
Would you approach porn like cheating?
Forgive me if this has been brought up many times here--I have been aware that my H uses porn, and we have always had what I thought was a sex-starved marriage (10 times a year or less).
I am not *against* porn, per se, if the R is otherwise healthy.
I have had a C that said it is cheating, and then I have had a few friens that say it's not. I like the "hard hitting" approach that goes on over here (that is why I'm asking here, and not in the SS forum--they have a different approach that I have tried now for about 5 years.lol. It ain't working!)
My H has become increasingly disrespectful, and as of now, it's been 5 months since he's even touched me. A 180 for me is to stop being a doormat and create some sort of boundary.
Would you approach porn like cheating?
Not sure if I am the best person to answer since I've only been around a short while compared to some of the experts here... but, I would to some degree, yes, given your H's behavior towards you!
Anything that is negatively affecting your R has to be addressed and cut out like cancer - the sooner the better. Don't wait until things worsen before you take action.
People having varying opinions on porn, I know. Some people find it acceptable, others don't. I was brought up in a religious home and I still have a hard time with rated R movies these days much less anything harder. (Having said that, I'm no prude in the bedroom where I feel anything goes between a H and W.)
Definitely stop being a doormat! Definitely set some boundaries and tell your H you feel this porn stuff has become an addiction/is negatively affecting your M/is unacceptable. Not knowing your SS background, maybe this porn stuff is a coping mechanism for H. BUT... it doesn't matter - it's still going outside your M to fix the problem rather than addressing it within the M.
LauraOh
1. If this behaviour makes you at all uncomfortable then its unhealthy to the marriage
2. If your H is doing something in secret that is unhealthy to the marriage its cheating yes...
To use Phil McGraw's words :
If your H wouldn't do it in front of you, its cheating.
-----------------
Questions :
1. Have you TOLD your H you want him to stop consuming porn?
2. Has your husband done this with your knowledge or is he doing it in secret and keeping it from you?
Note : Porn is NOT generally healthy for a marriage, it often leads to internet sex, online affairs, and eventually a physical affair...
It's the mildest step on a dangerous road...
He should stop it if it makes you at all uncomfortable.
The thing is Laura there are a few variables here
1. Porn addiction - this may be the source of his disrespect
2. Porn use contaminating the marriage
3. Your passive support of the porn use
The question isn't if its cheating Laura, the question is
a. Is this good or bad for the marriage?
b. If it is bad, is your husband willing to do the work necessary to change the behaviour?
I normally will tell people outright it will do more harm than good.
I have heard a few arguments about porn being healthy for a marriage, but most of the data is leaning towards it being a parasite at best...
1. How long has he been using porn?
2. Did you ask him to stop and what was his reaction?
3. How much pressure has been put on him to stop?
The other concern I have here when it is at a 5 month point is that porn use often leads to internet affairs and you don't want that to happen trust me.. Been there
Laura,
My H "cheated" on me with porn. I considered it cheating, because he sure as he11 wasn't doing it with me. It is also addictive.
Speaking of Dr. Phil, go to his website and enter the word porn in the 'search' box to see what he has to say. He doesn't sugar-coat it one bit.
-silverado
Silver, yes, I support McGraw 100%
The thing is, if you approach a consumer of porn, particularly an addict with the view that he's "cheating" it is not going to get the results intended.
Villifying your spouse for cheating before educating them is just going to drive them further away and underground... It's not going to end the addiction.
Hi Laura
I have absolutely no issues with porn and could care less if my hubby watched it. I think it did affect things in the marriage though. He was keeping it a secret, I really wouldn't care BUT- sex consisted of quickies and my needs were not being met. I made this known loud and clear that I need to enjoy the act too. I would have hissy fits, cry, rages etc. things would improve then slide back to the way they were. I would withhold sex stating there has to be mutual enjoyment and after a few weeks cave b/c I was feeling like a bad wife withholding and also I was dying for sex at that point. He always won the standoffs. Thing is- he was content to use porn instead of me. He stated that with porn you could be with as many woman as you want to be. Makes absolutely no sense to me but I guess for men porn can replace the real thing.....
Anyhow, he also was finding me really unattractive and was comparing me to the porn stars I think- I mean he thought 135 was too fat. And as soon as I got pregnant I could tell he was not happy with the added weight and the weight I gained after. Anyhow, things are good again and he has choosen to stop watching porn. He feels it can be "addictive"- his words not mine.
I still have no issues with porn- I just had no idea he was so secretive about it and if it REPLACES me then there is going to be a problem.
I really suggest you read up on all of Onthemountaintops early thread. Goes into length about porn issues. I posted more of my story there.
I thought I was fine about the past but yesterday I read yout post and I admit ugly tears of hurt can up. I felt rejected for so long. So many d@mn years. I was thinking that I didn't want to end the marriage (didn't want to hurt the kids) but maybe cheating was an option since my emotional needs and sexual needs were not being met and whenever I voiced my concerns it would be quite a fight. A big atomic blowout.
Anyhow- if porn is satisfying HIS sexual needs instead of you than- yeah, that is one hell of a problem and one that must be fixed or a dealbreaker in my book.
I had no idea how much porn my hubby was viewing since he hid it all.
June, the question sin't how do you FEEL about him using porn, the question is "is this safe to use for a married man?"
In most cases porn leads to addiction, to internet affairs, and then to physical affairs
while the porn may not upset you, it is NOT healthy for the marital home in most cases...
You are asking the wrong question here.. how you FEEL about it isn't the issue, its "is porn safe for a marriage"
In most cases the data is suggesting a resounding NO
My hubby makes huge efforts in the bedroom now, makes huges efforts to be a great husband. I too make huge efforts to try and be the best wife I can be. Thing is though- he is out of chances. He becomes a jerk again doing all the things he did to me I am out the door to the lawyer and he knows this. I have been very clear about it. If I suddenly get mean and nutty and refuse to change my behavior I expect the same from him.
I do not think that being marriage means you put up with cr@p. I mean you tolerate things for a while and try to guide the person to a better path and voice your concerns. But if the pattern will not budge then....
Sorry think I am basically venting...
Allen, I guess I was very naive b/c I thought porn was totally harmless. I was unaware that it could affect the marriage unless the husband got totally into it.
I just had no idea that my hubby was so into it since he hid it so well... I thought he just was rejecting my needs period b/c he was not into me anymore.
I don't know how I am going to tackle the porn issue with my two boys some day. I think it's ok to look at occasionally but too much....
I am for the most part very liberal about sexuality and stuff....
The thing is June, you are assuming that the spouse is being honest...
Internet porn use often leads to online affairs... it happens all the time.. and THAT road is NOT something he's going to SHARE with you, he's giong to keep that a secret and you will be played for a fool.. its all over this forum...
The porn would be fine if it didn't prove to lead elsewhere or to unhealthy places, but porn use often escalates, it doesn't just stay with porn... THAT is the risk, and its not one that is good for a marriage
Porn use is fine, but its the potential secrets and lies that follow that become a problem.. and what's behind those lies is even worse...
It's much like your H going to a singles bar with a buddy who is single.. you may say you are fine with it.. but its a dangerous thing to sign off on there...
Healhty marriages have spoues who respect SAFETY ZONES of a marriage, much like driving a vehicle.. those who drive their marriages wrecklessly and just rely on "trust" find their marriages end up very soon in a ditch
Trustworthy people behave in a trustworthy fashion that includes the safety of their marriage and observing the importance of preserving that safety...
Use of porn is an act of marital wrecklessness... a ticking time bomb
Allen,
I totally see your point. My hubby could be viewing it in secret again I have no idea he hid is so well. I would guess not though. His actions show otherwise and he feels that he must not allow any porn or it's a slippery slope that will suck him in...
I will tell you this much though- being rejected and not having my needs met for years and not knowing the real reason why (well there is more to it of course) hurt like hell.
The only reason I found out about the porn is that our computer got infected with these porn adds that kept popping up like crazy and my husband sheepishly admitted that he was viewing it and keeping it a secret from me.... He felt humiliated that our yong son would want to play a game and porn would pop up.
Back to Laura though- I have no idea how she should handle this... besides maybe setting a boundary of no changes on his end then she leaves. I mean what else can she do? Maybe you will have some wise words...
If I had known I would have handled things differently.
Your H can go to an internet cafe and consume porn or to a freinds place who doens't care...
Your HOME may be free of it, but you want your marriage free of it too...
It CAN improve sex life in some marriages, but it can also RUIN it... my advice is to not roll the dice hoping porn will improve things there.. find a healthier tool to use to get your marriage where you want it to be... Porn is not a solution to sexual dissatisfactoin in marriage
May I jump in here and ask a question? When my emotions were still so raw from my WAW experience, I was against exposing A's. I used the example of the H addicted to porn and asked if a W should expose her H. I was curious to know what Allen's thoughts were about this.
Don't know if I'm making myself clear. But if people think porn is a form of cheating (or all the other issues that's been mentioned)......then should he be exposed like a WAS is exposed?
Porn is not nearly as serious a threat to the marriage...
Porn can cause a lot of tension and upset, but its not nearly as bad as an actual third party deliberately trying to derail your marital train...
It also depends on how bad the addiction is. If the H is going out to strip clubs with rowdy men and spending 1000 bucks a month on internet video's and phone sex then yes, I would say its time to ask some of his family to step in.
If its something much milder a private confrontation first is likely in order to determine if he IS willing to see a therapist about this and curb the behaviuor.
It's also harder to reverse expose porn use. With infidleity its a LOT easier to SELL "I'm in love and getting a divorce" than it is to sell "I'm hanging out on the internet at all hours of the night consuming porn and i enjoy it"
Part of the exposure tactic is to "cut the spouse off at the pass" so to speak since with infidelity the truth will come out eventually that you are pursuing someone.. Most cheaters will spread the news with their spin on it like above... If the WS exposes this first in a more painful light the WS' efforts to bring the truth out are foiled. The porn addict does not ever need to reveal what he's doing unlike the infidelity addict.
The other reason for exposing is to bring the family and friends into the marriage to support that marriage... much like a wedding when the community is invited to celebrate when things are well, when things are bad I too believe that bringing a smiliar group to gether to HOLD the marriage UP and keep it on both feet is essential. Hopefully the same people that were there to eat your wedding cake and dance to celebrate the good times will be willign to hop in and roll up their sleeves during the bad times too... if they aren't... Well you know who shouldn't have been invited to the wedding...
Different addictions are worse than others, and each addition has varying degrees of severity...
The biggest bonus to porn addiction is the fact that it is publically understood as a problem and is generally taboo - no one wants to admit they consume it regularly...
if Infidelity had this stigma it would be a much easier nut to crack
Well I know when I was dealing with exposure that it seemed very unfair to hang me out for everyone to know what I'd been doing.....but nobody has to know about my H's dirty little secrets? That part is to stay private? There's not a third party involved?
Somehow it just didn't seem quite balanced in all fairness. I do see what you are saying....and I'm not fighting it.....but it is a hard pill to swallow when you know people have been informed about "you" but brother would they be shocked to know what dear old dad was doing!
I don't have the details so I can't comment...
But understand this... exposure isnt' done because you want to do it... I advocate doing what needs done to get the family as a whole to a healthier place... I don't advocate more than I think is needed...
With infidelity given the painful circumstances, the explicit and very real threat to the marriage (I've never seen anyone run off to marry a magazine cover), tougher measures are endorsed...
They aren't pleasant... And believe me if keeping the whole mess secret could be done while saving a marriage from infidelity I say go for it... but Experience on this forum alone shoudl show you how addictive infidelity is and how hard to break its hold on the WS...
I reccomend a sledge hammer when its needed... And with infidelity you usually have to bring out the biggest hammers you have...
I would endorse the same for alcohol abuse as well in most cases... and I wish to god when I was a kid someone had exposed my mother and her family and gotten to her... To this day I refuse to drink a single drop of alcohol
I am NOT saying no to exposure with porn addiction.. I am saying
If it has gotten to the point where that is neccessary, then we do what we must to improve the health of the family
Bear in mind as well that exposing also embarasses both spouses... I have seen very few people who want to reveal to their friends and family that their spouse is mounting someone else in secret... It's not something anyone enjoys sharing from what I've seen...
Its humiliating and for men especially it is immasculating... Women may experience something similar. Having no vigina, I can't comment... lol
My husband's interest in porn was our slippery slope. It started out with magazines in high school and college. (he later told me he first found his dad's magazines around 8th grade)
Then it was strippers and phone sex lines in college, along with magazines...at first I didn't know about the phone lines, didn't find the credit card bills till we got married after college and merged household files...However I knew about the stippers, tried to be a 'guys girl' and even went with him and his frat brothers a time or two. I thought the whole thing was silly...little did I know!
Then after marriage, he worked in the meat industry. Very Old Boys Network. Almost every customer that came to town for a visit wanted dinner followed by strip club. So, he took them. Again at the time I didn't care because we had a great sex life at home and I didn't consider it cheating...again, I even went a few times with him and some people from work (mostly guys but a gal or two) because the boss was buying drinks! So I fed into his habit without realizing it.
Well ultimately he confessed that on a business trip to Tokyo 3 years into our marriage, he took a stripper back to his hotel room.
The beginning of the end. See, the magazines, phone lines, and strippers stopped being enough. He needed more stimulation, kind of like an alcoholic needs more booze over time to create the same effect...
After that he promised no more porn. Then he'd go on a business trip, I'd find a receipt, he was busted, he'd apologize. More than once this happened...then I found a credit card bill for a sex line. When confronted he wanted to die, he said, he was so ashamed. Out to the dumpster went the hidden pile of magazines and vhs tapes I hadn't known were there...
Fast forward 9 years. We are now divorced, two affairs (that I know of)later. He dropped a suitcase at my house last summer while he was living with his parents, meaning to do laundry. I found magazines and dvds in the suitcase...then just two weeks ago we were at my son's baseball game. He handed me his digital camera to take pictures. I was browsing through pictures of my daughter's recent birthday (he said I could) and found, further back in the camera files, some explicit nakes photos of my H. Or rather, his genitals. So the cycle continues...
My pastor said it is an addiction, that porn is a virus that can infect a man, infect a marriage. It doesn't get better and go away on its own...
june,
porn is like a gateway drug. The "soft" stuff gets boring, so they have to keep getting "edgy-er" and upping the game. It becomes addictive and destructive. My H is supposedly recovering and abstaining from it, but I have found things he has been checking out online. Some really sick stuff too. He has gone on to EA's/PA's and all kinds of other "paid for" activities outside of marriage.
As for your boys, I would try to emphasize the point that it is not realistic and is disrespectful to women. My H's mom thought there was nothing wrong with it -actually considered him a "healthy" male because of it. ick.
FVF
Your H"s mom frauvf likely isnt' fully informed on what he's actually looking at...
Oh! You are soooo right on that one, Allen. In her mind it is
"just playboy"....she would absolutely die if she knew what all he was/is up to. She is a fine, upstanding, regular church goer and thinks he is an angel on earth!
FVF
I once caught my soon-to-be ex looking at Playboy, years after I first caught it and asked him not to. He just laughed and said, "I read it for the articles." ha ha.
The joke was on me. I believed him. Years later, I came to find porn (and not-so-soft porn) on my computer, where he was a member of that (and a gazillion other escort sites).
Then I found a piece of paper in his wallet with names, Websites and prices for an hour, two hours and a night. Then, I called some of the contacts in his phone, and he was furious. (They were all women) for which he had an-other excuse.
There was violence, and a separation, and now we are going through a divorce. He plans to see one of his prostitutes next week. (Ask me how I know).
We are also going to court for domestic violence very soon. It is not only addictive, but depraved and heinous to those they once proclaimed to love.
We are not sick. It is they who put us in our abyss, who are to blame, who need to take responsibility for their depravity. And if they are not ready, they need to be pushed, ordered by a judge or simply removed from your presence. Just my humble opinion.
Ok I'll bite...how do you know?
I don't know what my now-ex was doing for sure, but in January I stopped by his new house to drop off stuff for the kids. He had run an errand and left door unlocked. I went in to drop things off and right on his boxes of crap he left a stack of misc papers. On top was a receipt for a local (in the greater metro area) hotel. He had a house finally, so he didn't need a motel. Who knows who he met or what they did? Ick...
There is a song "Slow Fade" that kind of relates to this, things start out 'harmless' but they grow with time. As was recently posted, it escalates because the initial soft stuff stops giving them the 'high' and they need more stimulation. Just sad, really. I can't imagine anyone caught up in that having any sense of pride. My ex gets very angry about a lot of things and my IC says that is all of his anger at himself, but he can't face what he has become, what he has done, so he pushes the anger out onto me, his job, his life, anything but himself.
All I know if after this experience, I will NEVER have a relationship with a man if I know he uses porn, no matter how 'harmless' he thinks it is.
I had read somewhere that the addicts FIRST RUSH is always their best and they spend the rest of their addiction trying to recreate that and keep failing.. so they up the dose hoping to get the first rush again only to STILL FAIL... so they keep upping the dose and pursuing that first time again and again until they crash apart comletely...
Frightening thought... but it all makes sense.. infidelity this makes sense too...
The first time tehy cheated it was exciting and they keep wanting to recreate that but they can't quite get it, so they try again and again... They get riskier and make more mistakes, get caught and it slowly falls apart after that...
I'd like to chime in on the question
As a male who has seen his share, the answer is a resounding yes.
It is sexually repressive
It is emotionally unhealthy
It is a distraction from his spouse
It sets false expectations of and for women
It objectifies women and spouse
It is time and energy (and $$) NOT spent on spouse/family
Porn is an interesting conflict. The sex that is "sought" in porn negates it happening "in reality". Thus a chain.
There is an entire section in "No More Mr Nice Guy" that deals with this addiction/habit.
Fascinating reading.
Changed my view completely.
It was part of my "self-analysis"
Browsed through a copy at Chapters/Indigo and POW-right in the face.
I just copied the above and emailed it to my STBX. I used a bogus email address, but he will probably just send it to the junk box.