Hi friends and new friends.
A quick recap. Jun 07 found out H had ONS that happened in Jan 07. He said he would take full responsibility but then refused to talk about it again. I tried to reach out to him but he was unreachable. Jul 07 H almost died from illness, I nursed him back to health. I told him I felt insecure, want to renew vows. We renew vows in Nov 07. Found out March 08 that he has had an affair with his direct report Jan 08 (two months after we renewed vows). Now figured out ONS was probably the same person and he had her in the wings continuing the A. Did not want to leave the comfort of the M until his R with her was secure. So when I found out in March 08, he said 'I love her' and he decided to leave our marital home. Pretext was to think things through, promised that he would keep away from her, lies, lies and more lies, even now.
We are both in IC with the same therapist but separately. IC is pro-M. No papers filed. No D talk...yet.
Emotions have calmed down a lot since then. I love the man I married but not the person who has done this to our families. Think he is in MLC amongst other things. H still in heat of A.
I am uncertain how I want to proceed. Don't know if I am wasting my time waiting for the man I love to see my good points again. Doing very well GAL, I am happy otherwise. No plans on moving onto another R.
IC believes most R that starts with an A ends badly. So he advises patience and GAL. I agree with him that his A will not be long term but don't know if that bodes well for my M as it is so badly damaged by his behavior and his continued betrayal and lying.
I want to save my M but not seeing any progress just kills my motivation.
When he first moved out, we were still talking. He would still call me up once a week to ask how the kids were, tell me about his work and just chat a little bit. I acted 'as if' but a few times I got mad because his work would call and would put me in a tough spot to lie for him. After a couple of bad phone calls he withdrew even more. Now he doesn't even call once a week anymore and he doesn't talk about his life very much because he is trying to shut me out.
But made progress, last week he actually opened up a little bit after not doing so for a long time. Don't know if he is flip-flopping or was it my sexy dress? Don't know. If I don't know what I am doing right, how can I replicate it?
I feel that going dark has backfired. He gets really mad when I go out when he is with kids. He withdraws from me for a long time. But if I stay around then I am letting him eat cake but then he would relax a little by the end of his day and talk about himself just a little. So do I go out and leave him with the kids or do I stay and try to see if he reaches out to me?
Hi PM,
I think I'd posted earlier this week and asked why you always stayed around when he comes to see the children. I would let him have them by himself. After all, if it does come to D, that's how it will be for him -- at least for the most part. How convenient for him that you look after the children all week, and then when he decides to grace you all w/is presence on the weekends -- you hang around.
I would go out and stay out and be vague about your plans. If he doesn't like it - so what? Hanging around him all day in the hopes that he'll talk about himself a little seems clingy. If you can, try this 180 and see.
You are doing great, and in the end, only you know what's right for you.
Stacy
p.s. Don't lie for him, to work, or ever.
PM, not sure if aI asked this before, but does work know he is having an A with direct report? Isn't it against company policy?
I know if you think that if H keeps seeing you he will soften his heart -- he might but absence might make the heart become stronger. Also once he is with Ow more maybe he will not like what he has gotten.
It is discouraging.
Hi PM,
Going dark and LRT are tricky things...but I think both of them should be about you first and foremost - not him. I went dark after my wife moved out (I prefer to call her B) and it's made things much worse - but, as I've come to see, this is the only way I could have gotten to where I need to be - where I live my life separate from her and seize my life as my own in a healthy way. My T recently said to me, "how can two people complete each other and still friends? That's like saying you're both inadequate." He didn't say that to me months ago when I first started seeing him - he seemed to have waited until I was ready to hear it...and I think sometimes that's what comes with having our own safe space away from our spouses.
In my case, B became increasingly abusive and threatening (to call police, etc) - and so going dark was also done in order to protect myself from her anger and threats. I don't know if going dark is what everyone needs, however - as sometimes LRT just means you turn your attention to your life in such a positive way that you finally rediscover yourself as you would be without your S. I think you have a great sense of your own happiness - but I do want to ask you something...forgive me if it's too forward...why do you want to be with your husband? Is there something he offers you that you can't do for yourself? Is it legitimate? Does fear stop you from feeling the deeper emotions under the fear? (fear did that to me - for MANY months - now I know that whenever I feel fear, there is something in me I have to address, no matter how painful or sad).
When I explored that question at some remove from B I found a completely different answer than I had expected...a life changing answer....I had to set aside what I had hoped for (family, mother with me and my son, preserved unit, the dreams that brought us to where we were before the bomb) and just take the time to think about why, of all people in this world, did I want to be with B? For some, asking that question leads to a real commitment to do what it takes to save the marriage - for others - it means accepting the end of the marriage...but for both I think the solution is the same - whatever it takes means you stop thinking about his anger and his issues and the reasons for why he left - and you start focusing instead on becoming the best person you could possibly be (which I know you know) - but even if you decide the marriage is over (as I did) you still have to do the same thing...be happy with yourself and love yourself in the healthiest of ways. If you love your H unconditionally, and want him back (without expectations and without wanting him to fulfill your needs) than you'll be able to do it...and I think it's vital to GAL/PMA and find yourself in the deepest of ways for that to work.
-Carlos.
Stacy, thanks for the post. The reason that I hang around on weekends is that I want to make life as normal as possible for the kids. I don't want to make things worse for them. So I hang around and act 'as if' we are a happy family. The kids feel relaxed, H and I don't fight, we act civil and I try to show H that home is safe and that I am not about to make him eat dirt every time he comes near. So I have many reasons to stay around, for kids, for H to feel safe about coming home and for me to feel some sort of normalcy and peace. My IC and DB coach suggested that I take some time away when he is with kids and I have. It has backfired in that he gets so mad at me for leaving. Gives me dirty looks and snaps at me when I come home. Acting all high and might like he has to do EVERYTHING when I am the one with the kids all week. I don't want to live with that tension anymore so after about five/six tries, I haven't tried it again. But I know our C wants it in our agreement that he will have the kids to himself every second Sunday. So we will see how that works. then the other Sundays would be 'family days'.
Hope, when I threated my H with exposure he exploded. He threatened never to talk with me again and to make everything as ugly as possible. That is not what I want, even if we D, I want an amicable D because I value peace above all else. I don't want to turn into a bitter resentful person because of this. I want to be a better person, not one who wants revenge.
And I did try the absence thing. A couple of months after I found out about A, I left for two months to stay with my family to take a break from the conflict. I took the kids during summer. During that time, he went out with OW, and lived the bachelor life, he loved it. At the end of that time he told me that he was so happy living without me. I was crushed. So no in fact, for my H, the heart did not grow fonder. It had the opposite effect. I asked him if he wanted me to leave him for good and he said that he would support whatever decision I made. He would like me to take the kids far away so he could be absolved of all responsibility of his actions and can tell the world that I left HIM. So I did exactly opposite of what he wanted. I came home and stayed put. I did not vacate my position as wife. He moved out a second time and did not talk about R at all since then.
Carlos, thanks for your questions. I think the reason that I want my H has mainly to do with me, not with him particularly. I am very very old-fashioned. I believe in commitment and vows and love. I believe that unless there is serious abuse (which there isn't in our case) that there is no obstacle big enough to that two people can't overcome. That love often does flow and ebb. That relationships are not perfect ALL the time. That love is not about what my H is offering to me or fulfilling in me but what I can do for him and what we together can do for our family and our extended families. I don't look at M as a sum like an accountant. What is he doing for me? Am I getting my money's worth? I look at it from the angle of 'I have made a commitment for life, I want the best for all of our families. I would like to work on this together and please each other and everyone else.' More of a communal love than a one person filling the needs of another.
Call me silly but I was very much in love with my H and still am, just not this lying cheating man. When he called, I'd get excited to hear about his day. When he came home, I would want to be with him and just BE. I don't ask for very much, I am not a very demanding wife. I just like being with him and being his companion and that is what I miss most about him now. His companionship. I am not afraid of being alone. I have always done things by myself. Had friends that were mine and played sports by wihtout him, had my own hobbies. But I miss being with him. I liked him. He was my best friend, I liked to share with him. I don't know this depressed, angry man he has become and I don't know if it's just MLC but I miss the man that I knew.
I don't miss our negative interactions, they were few and far in between but it was more than he could take. H hated any sort of conflict or confrontation. I believe in talking things out so there were no misunderstandings. I think if we knew where we stood and neither of us meant any harm then we could get past so many issues. He just saw the conflicts as signs of unhappiness on my part and he felt helpless and inadequate to 'make me happy'. I just wanted him to listen and understand. Classic 'Men are from Mars...' stuff. I read that book but he never bothered so when I tried to explain he just brushed it off as 'pop psychology' and didn't bother. I just saw that as another attempt on my part to reach out to him and another rebuff from him and his lack of interest in improving our R. so the more I reached out, the more he withdrew and the more frustrated I got. We hardly had any arguments, maybe three or four times a year but he couldn't handle them. So that's it. Whew, he is gone.
Hope, forgot to answer your other question about company policy. My H has a special function in his company, they will not fire him. He will also do anything to keep her job for her so that route is pretty much blocked. Plus, I am not totally comfortable with messing with another person's income. Just because she is low enough to butt in on my M, doesn't mean I have to stoop to her level. I am to be true to myself and not stoop to hers. (I don't mean that about you by the way, you are in a different sitch since there is excess alcohol involved AND you have to see her face and work there everyday, like I said, I think you are totally unbelievably strong.) But I don't have to see OW so I will just let her dig her own grave, so to speak. I think people who do bad things, karma will eventually settle the score. I don't need to do anything. I will just let my own conscience be clear.
{{{{PM}}}}
What you said in your post in respose to Carlos' question has moved me nearly to tears. That's almost exactly why I still want to be with my W but I could never have worded it as well as you have. Here's me trying to be a writer too!! Lol. Thank you for those words.
Carlos, I can see your point too and respect you a lot for managing to find the strength to make the decisions you have regarding your sitch. It all just reminds me that although many have similar problems on these boards, no two situations are exactly the same. I can see many parts of mine split between many people's but I don't think I've come across anyone who is going through exactly the same as me. Some do come close though. This is what makes this site so invaluable. If you break each situation down in to small parts, there's always someone around who has been through those parts and come out the other side stronger for it. If you get advice on how to deal with even a small part of your sitch, eventually you will piece those together and have a great way of working on the whole. For example, PM, in describing why she still wants to be with her H, has unintentionally explained to me exactly why I still want to be with my W. Whereas, you Carlos, have taught me a lot about finding my inner strength to battle through this and to make me a better person regardless of the outcome.
Kev
Hi PM, I was looking for you last night, so I finally found you this morning. However, it is time to get ready for work, so I will have to wait until later to talk. I haven't had a good long talk with you in a while, so I have been saving up spit...(lol).
Later,
Sandi2
Hi PM
Just thought I'd drop in to thank you for posting on my thread today. How are you doing today yourself? I hope you're keeping your spirits up and keeping the smile on your face?
Kev
My IC and DB coach suggested that I take some time away when he is with kids and I have. It has backfired in that he gets so mad at me for leaving. Gives me dirty looks and snaps at me when I come home. I don't want to live with that tension anymore so after about five/six tries, I haven't tried it again. But I know our C wants it in our agreement that he will have the kids to himself every second Sunday. So we will see how that works. then the other Sundays would be 'family days'.
Hi PM, I know you don't want to rock the boat and I understand what you are saying, BUT your H knows what buttons to push with you and takes advantage of your good nature. H gets mad and you do more of the same. I know you want to keep the peace, but H does need to realize what the future will be like. Right now it is status quo. He can pretend that it is one happy family and he has your help with the kids.
When I threated my H with exposure he exploded. He threatened never to talk with me again and to make everything as ugly as possible. That is not what I want, even if we D, I want an amicable D because I value peace above all else. I don't want to turn into a bitter resentful person because of this. I want to be a better person, not one who wants revenge.
Of course he would explode. It is exposing the dirty secret at work and maybe start to make him accountable. This is not about revenge but company policy. If this A dies a natural death, the OW can go holler to company "sexual harrassment" and end up opening a whole nother can of worms. In my case yes, I work there but I know that OW has put in multiple sue cases for car accidents, liability at work etc. Because these OP have no morals or accountability they will turn on the WS once things go sour.
More importantly as long as H sees the OW at work he has his "fix". He is addicted to the A and she is there waiting for him everyday.
I think the reason that I want my H has mainly to do with me, not with him particularly. I am very very old-fashioned. I believe in commitment and vows and love. I believe that unless there is serious abuse (which there isn't in our case) that there is no obstacle big enough to that two people can't overcome. That love often does flow and ebb. That relationships are not perfect ALL the time. That love is not about what my H is offering to me or fulfilling in me but what I can do for him and what we together can do for our family and our extended families. I look at it from the angle of 'I have made a commitment for life, I want the best for all of our families.
Call me silly but I was very much in love with my H and still am, just not this lying cheating man. I don't ask for very much, I am not a very demanding wife. I just like being with him and being his companion and that is what I miss most about him now. His companionship. I am not afraid of being alone. I have always done things by myself.
I don't miss our negative interactions, they were few and far in between but it was more than he could take. H hated any sort of conflict or confrontation. I believe in talking things out so there were no misunderstandings. I think if we knew where we stood and neither of us meant any harm then we could get past so many issues. He just saw the conflicts as signs of unhappiness on my part and he felt helpless and inadequate to 'make me happy'. I just wanted him to listen and understand.
Hi PM, this part I understand perfectly. Like you I am old fashioned and wanted this M for life. My old H is gone and he is replaced with an alien life form. Even an e-mail is very formal. I hate it.
But I do want my M back, not the M that H walked out of but the way it should be. None of us should settle for less. I know I have taken a much stronger stand but we both want the same - our M reconciled. Do I want this D, absolutely not; we have no choice but we can decide when WE have had enough. I know people that have gotten D and reconciled and remarried. We are on God's plan not our own timetable. I am willing to wait. I understand DBing, Plan A, and Plan B. I do know Plan B is better for me right now because every time I saw or talked to H, it gave him a reason to say "I am too controlling, I am too emotional" or anything for an excuse to put me in a bad light.
Now that I have gone dark, he has asked both my SIL and D28 about me in the past 2 weeks. Believe it or not they do miss us or the routine of us. And by doing that is keeping my sanity.
We are all rooting for you here, but in some of your posts I can feel your discouragement and feeling lost.
Hi PM, I really have not saved up spit, so don't worry about one of my looong posts to you. Just mainly wanted to stop in and see how things were going. I am not here to judge your techniques but it does bother me when I see a person who I feel is being emotionally blackmailed. I have personally known people that get their way by getting mad, not speaking, whatever they know will make the OP feel bad enough not to replay whatever it was that they didn't like. For an example, when you went dark, when you threaten to expose the A, when you even leave him alone with the kids while you have a chance to do something else. I see that as more than controlling and selfish. Not knowing him, it makes him sound like a very selfish person and to the point that he doesn't even want to be alone with his own children. That blows me away!
Well, I hope for your sake that you know what you are doing b/c he certainly has everything going "his way". You are a much better person than I ever could be to sit at home and allow him to have his affair while he keeps you under his thumb. He has the best of both worlds. But, if you think waiting it out and hoping that the man you M shows up some day ready to come back home.....I hope it happens, however, you know yourself by reading the MLC forum that it could be years and it still may never happen. I know you want to do almost anything to have peace, but you have to ask yourself if you are happy, sweetie. You do deserve happiness. I'm not telling you to run file for a D. Not at all. Just want you to not be a doormat for him and to feel good about yourself and to be happy. If you are, then that is good enough for me.
Take care,
Sandi
Hey Hope and Sandi, thanks for stopping by. I really really want to wait this out until he is over his A and then see how we feel about each other when he is off the 'love high'. But I feel like I am putting my life on hold. You see, my family lives elsewhere and I would love to move back to the same city as them, where my parents, my brother and his family all live. I would like my children to grow up with the extended family if they can't have their dad around. I'd like solid role models for them to look up to, male and female. I also enjoy living near my family where I can get their emotional support and I can give them support in return in times of stress or ill health or whatever. If I stay in the same city as my husband, I cannot do those things. I would have to fly back and forth. Plus right now, my H is very self-centered and thinks he's doing a great job as a dad but is hardly ever around and doesn't bond with the kids, more like a playdate than a parent.
I guess I need more and more patience to wait this A out. That is the encouragement I need, the more I write, the more I realize what I need.
I have always been his greatest cheerleader and friend. I don't want to ditch him in hard times. I believe in my vows, I want to be there in good times and bad regardless of how he treats ME.
Am I happy? No, not particularly, but I need to be true to myself. I would be happy if he snapped out of it and came home to work on our M, but like you all said, there are no promises. I would also be happy if I knew for sure that he WOULDN'T snap out of it then I can move on home with my family and start a new life. But feel right now, I am in limbo. Our pro-M C advises to give this time. He thinks there is a good chance H might reconsider but he is not making any guarantees. So I need some more patience. Maybe till the end of this year. By that time, it would have been almost two years. Maybe I just need a timeframe in mind so I feel I have some sort of control over this mess.
Have you read up on the life cycle of affairs or the honeymoon period. i struggle to find much on it. i like you wold be happy if i could get hold of a crystal ball. I could be patient if the outcome was a reunion BUT hey how long is to long to wait.
Anyways i would be interested in any research or stats you may have on this affair sitch.
Well, I have talked with my IC on this. He says that the honeymoon period can last up to two years. I know, it's a long wait but I have been with my H for 17 and I plan to live till 90 so in the grand scheme of things....
I think there are cracks happening in the A but can't confirm because he won't talk to me about OW, obviously. So I am just guessing here. But I think it would take a bulldozer to drag him back here because of pride and that he is not a person who wants to admit he has made a mistake, he's a perfectionist and it's just his nature. I know him. So even if the A does go south, I think it would take my H a long time to turn things around. But after all that, the A has to end first, right. Because right now, it's all just speculation.
Am I happy? No, not particularly, but I need to be true to myself. I would be happy if he snapped out of it and came home to work on our M, but like you all said, there are no promises. I would also be happy if I knew for sure that he WOULDN'T snap out of it then I can move on home with my family and start a new life. But feel right now, I am in limbo.
I went through that too. I think you should try to live your life like your H
won't be coming back. Make you and your kids as happy as possible. Don't put off anything you want to do b/c your H may come back at some point. I actually do think a good # of WAS will reconsider at some point, and if that happens you can decide what you want to do at that point. Don't worry about that now.
Move if it would be the best for your family, GAL, make yourself happy and don't worry about your H and his MLC behaviors. I'm actually happier now and the past few months than I was in the marriage for years. I'm looking at this as a time to grow stronger, more self confident, happier, healthier and all that. Karen
Hi PM. I appreciate you explaining your stitch and the feelings you have. You sound like such a strong person. I admire your stand where your vows are concerned and patient in waiting for your H. There is something I read in Karen's post that prompts me to ask you this question. Considering that it does take at least three years for "most" MCL/WAH's to come out of their frame of mind and start to regain a certain amount of normalacy, and after you said that he had so much pride.....I wondered if that meant you would have to add even more time to those three years. In a child's life, that is a long time. What I am trying to get around to asking is, if you were to "drop the rope" as it is written about in the DR book, and move back to where your family is and move forward with your life with your children and extended family......would he come for you after all of the mess is over?
You said you've always been there for him, so he probably expects you to continue to be his best friend even though he is cheating on you and wouldn't think of doing a "real" friend the way he is doing you. So, I'm wondering if that is enabling the affair for him and if he is taking you for granted knowing that you will be there if he decides to ever go back home? What would his reaction be if he saw you suddenly pack you and his children up and move away? You said that you wished he would snap out of it, well there have been reports that that has been what did wake the WAS up to what they were losing when the rope was dropped.
You said you needed encouragement and I sound as if I am encouraging you to get a D and that is not it at all. I am merely asking questions and making possible suggestions for you to think about.....which I'm sure you already have....but still wondered how he would react and if you thought his pride would stop him from going to get you or would it shock him into action. Different things work on different people. As you said, you know him. I just hope you don't waste a lot of years waiting around on him when time is so valuable. I have seen so many women and men on this board wait around hoping for the A to end and when they begin to see "cracks" appear, they would get their hopes up that the A would soon be over. But, what really happened was that their S and OP would play the games of breaking up and making up and it about drove the LBS crazy while the others played out their games. Whatever you decide, I will try to support you and give you encouragement as best as I can. I only hope that you have thought of all the possibilities and all the avenues. You talk about him going through a hard time.....like this affair is a hard thing happening to him. What about you? You are the one he vowed to love and cherish and yet he is disrespecting you like this. Please be sure that what you do is the right route to take. Maybe you are right in that a time limit would be a good thing for you to consider. If by the end of the year you see no bigger hope than you see now, I would want to think you would consider moving back home to your loved ones. It isn't fair to you or (if he isn't being a good father)to the kids.
I did not go out of my way trying to see how much I could hurt your feelings and I feel that my words have probably stung a great deal. Sometimes I don't do well in expressing my heart. You are the one that I want what is best for. There have been success stories where the spouse remained the "friend" and finally drew the WS back, but it is a hard, bumpy road and takes a lot of grit and grace. If you have that, then I pray that your wait won't be as long as most.
I can't remember right now if you said if OW is M or not. If so, does her H know of the A? Does your H worry about being exposed to friends, family and co-workers? Does his family live there? So many questions......I apologize, I should just go back and refresh my memory by reading your first post again.
Well, I'll let you go for now. I hope you can have peace of mind with whatever you decide to do.
Take care,
Sandi
Oh ((((PM))))),
What Sandi2 said.
Love and prayers,
Stacy
......would he come for you after all of the mess is over?
No, I think if I left, that would be it. He would probably think there is no return for sure.
What would his reaction be if he saw you suddenly pack you and his children up and move away?
Unfortunately, I can't just pack and move, it's a long story but trust me, I need at least six to nine months to do it. So if I were to move by the end of the year then I pretty much need to get the ball rolling now.
You said you needed encouragement and I sound as if I am encouraging you to get a D and that is not it at all.
No, I appreciate you asking questions, those are thoughtful and show concern, not judgment. I don't mind.
I just hope you don't waste a lot of years waiting around on him when time is so valuable.
I think at the end of the day, my H does have a soft heart. He has had a turbulent R with his dad but in the end he always want to have a good R with him. So I think he wants to have a civil/good R with me but right now not in the 'I am in love with PM' phase so pretending he is is just not being true to himself. So he would rather go with his 'feelings' and explore and expand his R with OW. I think that's what he thinks. And yes, if I do move, that would light a fire under him but I would do that only if 'I' want to do it for me and the kids, not to manipulate H. I am finding that I am moving more towards this option. I think I would be much more happier living near my family. Just don't really know about timeframe as I don't want to move away if it means he never comes home. But as Karen says, I don't want to put my life on hold either.
I can't remember right now if you said if OW is M or not.
OW is going thru a D. Her H cheated on her many times. No kids. I guess he gave her the STD and then my H gave it to me. I know, I am really bitter about that. But it's gone now forever, hopefully. So her H couldn't care less about her love life.
Does your H worry about being exposed to friends, family and co-workers?
My H does worry about being exposed to his coworkers since they work together. I don't know how much the office knows but I reckon it's not hard to keep under the lid as these things go.
Does his family live there?
His family lives very far away. That's one of the problems, I think. Both our families live far away so there is no 'society' to monitor his behavior. His peers are his coworkers, no friends. All his coworkers have dysfunctional marriages as well, many of them fool around as well. So I guess he gradually felt that it is acceptable and not out of the ordinary though he is still ashamed. His M won't take sides and she won't stand up for our M. It's a shame but he is her only child and she doesn't want to lose him so she won't say anything to guide him.
{{{{PM}}}}
It sounds as though you've gotten to another crossroads in the grand scheme of life? I can feel the pain and indecision in your words and know that you're obviously very torn at the moment.
I think without a doubt, you know in your heart that moving to be with your family is the best thing for you (right now). Nobody should have to go through what you are right now. You've already proved beyond a shadow of a doubt to everyone who knows you and even to those following your sitch on here that you've been the most amazingly patient, caring woman. You've always put your children first, and dare I say it, you still treat your husbands feelings with both empathy and sympathy. You have a huge capacity for caring and that shines through in your character. There are times in life though where you have to think about yourself. Well, yourself and your children. It's like Sandi said, how long will it actually take before he wakes up from his current state of mind when you take his pride in to account?
You mention it would take 6-9 months for you to be able to pack up and move to your family. Once the wheels are set in motion, can they not then be stopped? Only you can put a timeframe on this.
If your H snapped out of it when you were living with your family and once again became the man you love, would that man not then do everything in his power to regain his kids? Obviously I don't know your H and can only go by what you tell me but it seems to me that he must have once been a very good man to you and your wee ones. I would like to consider myself a good man and know that if my W moved away with my son, I'd do everything in my power to be there with him regardless of whether I was with my W. Your H might not be that man right now but after the fog has cleared, I would be surprised if it was as over as you seem to think it will be if you're living with your family.
Like Sandi, I'm sorry if I've said anything to upset you. That isn't my intention. I want the best for you. You've been so strong for me since I started posting and I want to be able to help you in whatever way I can. My advice and opinion might be way off mark but it does come from the heart. Be strong.
Kev
Hi PM, I just sent a long post and then lost it....
so I won't try to write another long one. However, I did want to respond to this:
And yes, if I do move, that would light a fire under him but I would do that only if 'I' want to do it for me and the kids, not to manipulate H.
I did mean exactly that when I was talking about the possibility of you moving back home, but may have failed to point it out. I do not believe in manipulation in anything.
I know you have a big decision and I will not pressure you b/c it is your life. However, if it would take that long to prepare for the move and you think you may need to have a "time frame", would it help distract you from the stitch a little bit by setting a time and begin working on the steps you would need to make to prepare for the move? If it takes that long, you may need to, unless it is a situation that cannot be reversed once it is put into motion. I can't think of anything that could not be reversed, but I don't know everything involved and it is none of my business.
PM, in reading your posts you sound like such a compassionate person who loves at such a deep level that we all can sit up and take notes from you. I see a lot of "grace" in your writings. I have to admire that. You do not sound at all like a weak person. Your strength shows through what you say. Your parents did a good job raising you! I hate that both you and your H live so far away from family. You may be right in that he fell into a mode of (lifestyle ?) at the work place. That seems to be happening a lot these days. So many marriages are being torn apart by A's at the office.
Well, my son has just come in, so I need to go. I'll talk soon
Sandi
All right, I need everyone's two-cents on this one. Then I did a rash thing. ( I have not done anything rash in eight months and now don't know if I did the right thing or not.)
Background: I have been detaching for the last eight months, keeping to myself and not complaining to my H about anything that he does.
Before I left to visit my dad, I e-mailed him several things that were on the agenda for S since I was leaving him behind and only taking D on my trip. Reason being he has tests that cannot be taken at a later date. I e-mailed him three different times with different topics. Not one word of reply. So the night before I left, I called him ( and I haven't called him for the last eight months) and here is the convo:
Me: I just need some reassurance that S will be taken care of. That you will be here for him because I have e-mailed you and you have not replied, I didn't know if you were mad at me or anything.
H: I am not mad. I am looking forward to spending some boys time together with S. I just thought the e-mails didn't need a reply.
Me: OK. I just need to make sure S is taken care of while I am away because he is pretty upset to be left behind.
So fine, we left it at that. I got an e-mail from H two days later at my dad's to say that S is doing fine with his tests and that everything is OK. I did not reply, thinking that it didn't really need one. It's a father's privilege to look after their own offspring.
I came home last night, D really looking forward to seeing H and her brother. I can sense that H is fishing for compliments on his ability to take care of S. So while he was driving us back from the airport, I said things like, 'When I skyped S, his first response is to tell me what you and he has been doing the night before. I think he really enjoyed his time with you.' (Boy, do men need a lot of compliments) However, H kept checking his watch, I knew he had other plans but bad traffic is not my fault so I watched my body language, making sure I didn't look tense as well. I made small talk and basically asked S about his week.
Back home, H doesn't take off his jacket, he stays for 10 minutes and announces that he is leaving. My D took it well in stride. I roll around with the kids in bed to distract them. I thought we would spend tomorrow together like every weekend since separation so no matter. She can have a full 'family day' with everyone tomorrow. Then after later on, I put the kids to bed, I get an e-mail.
H: I will be travelling for work next week. I need to do some errands tomorrow and will be around at 3pm to see the kids.
My first reaction was to write an e-mail. But here is the rash thing, I was hot under the collar and I called him. I was upset because he rushed out of there as soon as D and I got home, can't wait to get away on his 'me-time', can't even wait an hour till the kids are in bed then he e-mails me to say that he won't be here tomorrow until the afternoon. He could have told me and the kids during the time in the car or at home. He was a wimp and decided to do it thru e-mail, what a coward! I kept my tone non-threatening and calm. Things did get heated up a bit in the middle but I really tried to keep my cool but felt that I had to let him know how I felt or I just would not respect myself and I would be depressed about what a wimp I was.
He is obviously in bar from the background noise of his mobile.
Me: I got your e-mail. I don't think you need to come over tomorrow.
H: Why?
Me: I don't like the way you handled this situation. We should have had a face-to-face, not an e-mail to say that you are going to be late tomorrow. This is not a hotel that you can come and go as you wish. We are your family and your are being disrespectful.
H: Uh... I can change my schedule around and be there for the kids. Are you mad at me for rushing out of the house tonight? I really am just meeting up some friends at a bar. ( I guess, as opposed to having romantic time with OW) I really have a few things I have to do tomorrow since I will be away next week.
Me: No, I am not begruding you of your time out. I am saying that I disagree with the way you handled things. You need to tell me and the kids what you are going to do instead of e-mailing me and then I have to explain to the kids. But you need to look at this from D's point of view. She was looking forward to spending time with you and S.
H: Oh... I am sorry. I was insensitive, I will try to handle things better next time. I really want to see the kids tomorrow.
Me: I am glad that you understand what I mean.
H: I really have been good with S. We've done many things together while you were away.
Me: I want you to know that I think you have done a great job with S while I was gone. I know that. It's obvious in the way that he talks about you when I skype. ( More compliments and validating)
H: Should I still come around tomorrow to see the kids?
Me: I am sure that D would love to see you tomorrow. You can come around if you want.
H: I really have some personal stuff I have to do before the trip and I will try to wrap things up earlier.
Me: OK. Bye.
I know, the 24 hour rule. I should not have called him while my emotions were high. But I couldn't let him treat me like a doormat and babysitter any longer. Like I have no other plans than to take care of the children and wait for him to grace us with his presence. He is totally taken advantage of me. Making plans the night I get back like of course, I would be here to look after the kids and put them to bed. Why wouldn't I? And not thinking of the feelings of his little girl. I feel like I am here to look after the kids so he can feel guilt-free to go drinking with his buds knowing that the kids are happy and taken care of. I think those are the duties of a wife, not a separated wife. I think he is taking a lot of things for granted. His continual need for me to acknowledge that he was a fantastic dad while I was away shows me that subconsciously he DESERVES a night out. It's twisted thinking. I am thinking, well, I had D the whole time as well. And anyway, why is taking care of the kids considered a task that DESERVES any reward? Isn't it a reward in itself? That's why it's twisted.
I am not adverse to complimenting him on doing a good job as a dad. I want him to build up his self-esteem so he gets pleasure and motivated to become an increasingly better father. What I object to is presumption that it is not his privilege or his duty to do it and so if he does look after them then he deserves a reward for it. But if that is so, then I would like a compliment on being a good mother from him as well. Why is it a 'given' that I should be a good mother and that I should thank him everytime that he is a good father????
I am comforted by the fact that he still cares about what I think. This shows me that he has not become totally indifferent to my feelings and opinions. That we still have SOME kind of connection. Where this connection will lead, I cannot predict. I want us to communicate and encourage, not fight. I thought our conversation last night was productive. I set a boundary. 'You should treat us with more respect. This house is not your hotel. We are your family.'
I will see how he behaves from now. If he thought the conversation was productive as well or if he sees it as 'more of the same', i.e. 'here she goes again, getting on my back about things, being a b*tch.' If he sees that it was productive and communication was achieved then I know that he has grown. Not all complaints are bad, some are done to promote better communication. But if he thinks that I am 'on him' again then I know that he cannot see beyond his own anger issues and him seeing me as a controlling authority figure who has to dictate to him. We will see.
Ok, Guys, give it to me.
PM, here me clapping. No 2x4s here.
You have for 8 months been detaching, no demands, letting your H call all the shots. So for you to speak up after all that time is not "more of the same" but a 180 for you.
H wants to be a Dad, but only on his own agenda. your right we have to compliment them and say how great they are being, while we are the parent warriors that suffer in silence. What happens to our kids if we decide we do not want this responsibility. God knows that we are there and it is our privilage to take care of our children. We can't let them suffer in spite of everything going on.
You were not rude to him, you spoke of the Ds feelings and H had to validate that. So what you disturbed his night in a smoke filled bar. These men are acting like they are freshman that went off to college and are just going crazy.
I am in the same position as you -- I have no family around and they are 1900 miles away. One part of me wants to go back, my D wants to finish school here (she is a sophmore), but the loneliness is getting to me. I have friends here but there is such a void that I feel empty. I know the reason I am staying is I am praying for H to have an awakening. But my SIL told me the best thing I could do is pack up, move and let him come find me. I am scared that he will stay here with OW and never make that effort again.
I think you handled yourself well. You did not lose your temper or belittle him in any way. Hopefully it will give him pause and let him know it is not a hotel and you are not the innkeeper. My prayers are with you.
Sandi and CIW, thanks so much for your kind words. I think I deserve happiness yes but right now my happiness is attached to my H and my immediate family. As a little girl, I have always wish to have an intact family of my own. (My parents are happily married for more than 40 years now. Not great R but pretty good considering it's been 40 years. They have had ups and downs.) So that was my BIG dream. To let go of that dream is extremely difficult for me. I want my H to be part of that dream but there is nothing I can do to make him. So I need patience and DB.
All of you out there who have written to me , your thoughtful words help because I try very very hard to be the kind of person that you both have described and to have that validated is so important to me. I know that our identities are secret here so we are able to say things we normally might not say to our friends face to face. But it is still extremely touching to have you all express these thoughts about me. Even on the web, it's nice to have these words in my head. Thank you.
PM,
Well, good for you. You stood up for your family, your children, and they're your first responsibility.
Ofcourse you feel that he's taking advantage of you - HE IS!! I know you're willing to let that slide for now, but don't feel bad for feelings that are justified.
I applaud you - you're doing a great job hanging in there.
Keep up the good work!
Stacy
{{{PM}}} I too don't really think you did anything wrong in what you said..you actually were very kind and still validating while standing up for yourself at the same time (I don't know that I would have been that nice LOL)..
Tawnya
No 2by4s from me either. I think some of us tend to be maybe too passive, and I think for us assertiveness can be a good thing. My H has responded really well to that also. I think if you're not assertive, some people really will try to take advantage, and making clear your boundaries and what you will and won't tolerate is a good thing. (((((PM)))))
I agree with what all the others have said PM and congratulate you on the way you handled that situation. What you said to him was completely justifiable and he needed to hear it. Good for you.
I'm afraid I can't post much tonight because it's late here but I'll catch up again tomorrow. Sweet dreams.
Kev
PM, you touched a chord about how your parents have a 40 year M and counting.
My Dad died 3 months before my parent's 50th anniversary. He actually died on Father's day waiting to have bypass the following day. No one expected it. My mother and father were very dedicated to each other. I went to see him the night before, my mother as always was keeping vigil with him. I made her go grab some dinner. When she left my Dad said to me, "in case something happens to me, go get your Mom a 50th anniversary card from me and take her to dinner", I said "Dad you will be fine", he said just promise me. I did, and the next day he died.
When their anniversary, came I went out bought a beautiful card and as promised took her to dinner. I told her what my Dad had said. She cried but really appreciated it. It was 12 years ago and my Mom still loves him dearly (She is 85). That is love, that is dedication, that is the way I was raised.
Yes I understand. I want the same.
Thanks and hugs to all of you, Davidswife, Tawnya, Karen, CIW, Hope. It was difficult being assertive because I think my H saw my assertiveness as control and I didn't want to have a major conflict with him again.
Hope, you msg made me cry. What a beautiful story about your Mom and Dad. He really really loved her. You mother must be a very happy woman to have the love inside of her. I envy her so. I don't think my H really loved me that way, EVER. I can't remember what it was like before now. But he didn't make a fuss about anniversaries at all. I was the one who used to give him an anniversary present and make arrangements for a dinner out. ( Lack of power, I am afraid.) I guess part of it was before I was the stay at home Mom and so I was responsible for House/kids/couples things. So I did it.
Here is an update:
So my H and I put the kids to sleep. I was thinking about our telephone convo a lot and my H seemed very down all day so I wanted to have a convo with him.
Me: I just wanted to make sure that you understand I am not trying to deny your time with friends, I want you to be happy.
H: I was just so busy at work that I did not have time to get myself organized. I should have been better organized. ( I.e. he should have had more time for the kids on Sunday and not show up at 3pm like he did) I will be travelling for the next two weeks and will be away in March as well.
Me: When you have time, can you e-mail me your schedule? (I.e. let me know so I know what to tell the kids when they ask where you are and which city you are in. )
H: OK.
We talked in the kitchen and He then continued to talk about his work for half an hour. He shared about the stressed and his successes and he said he is starting to interview (yes, Hope) to try to get a better position. I was very encouraging (as I was in the past as well, I was his biggest cheerleader) and told him that the current financial crisis maybe an opportunity in disguise and maybe he can even do better than before. He told me how some of his friends that I know are doing. He again shared that he had a good time with our S while I was away. In fact, he talked for half an hour non-stop, I couldn't get a word in. It all poured out of him. He made several attempts to turn around to walk out of the kitchen but turned around and talked some more. Some eye contact. I made my body language very relaxed and tried to be very encouraging. ( One of his previous complaints was that I do not approve of his work, which is not entirely true. I listened to him talk about his work for hours EVERY NIGHT and was encouraging and on his side of all his arguments with his colleagues. I was just not happy about the amount of time he spends at work and his lack of interest in the children.)
The talk was very reminicent of old times and I think he felt it too. I think it reminded us of our Good interactions. I don't know if he is the same way with OW but they work together so I don't know if they rehash everything again after work.
But it's good that I didn't see any negativity from him regarding our previous night's conversation ( not sure if he is hiding it well/suppressing again or what).
He even mentioned on taking the kids on a trip next year and told me about visiting his client with the kids because it was be fun for them.
He has mentioned that 'we get along fine' but he doesn't love me. I don't know. It doesn't seem that he hates me so much anymore which is good. But he doesn't love me enough to try to work things out. I know because of OW, he is not missing his companionship and getting a high from her.
Am I on the right track? Should I let him feel the friendship we had before to get him a taste of what we had so he doesn't think it was all bad and rewrite history? Or should I withold so that he would pursue? He has not been pursuing me at all and don't think he would with OW still in the picture.
The good thing is that if he changes jobs then maybe he won't work with OW everyday. But there is a good chance that he would take her with him as well. In fact, the more I think about it, of course he would bring her with him. OK, scrub that. They will probably still be working together but can be more open about the relationship because it's a new company and nobody there knows me and so he doesn't have to be ashamed of his R with OW. They can just present themselves as a couple who happen to work together. Maybe that's his plan so that he won't get in trouble with his current company and have embarassing confrontations. This way, in a new company they can start afresh and just be a happy couple. Interesting, will have to see how it pans out for them. I guess if 'society' exerts pressure on your R, then you change the 'society' that you are in, that solves the problem, presto!
And H didn't ask about me at all. Nada. It was ALL about him. As before the bomb. Every night we would talk about him and his work. I volunteered information about my day and my friends and family but he didn't ask about me. Also, he knew it was my Dad's 70th and he didn't ask about my dad and mom or family. He really is self-absorbed at the moment. I know this is typical behavior of MLC but thinking back on our telephone conversations with his Mom on Sundays. He always told her in minute detail about his work ( which was the same with me). But he wasn't really all that interested in her life. In fact he would make faces about how overdrawn her stories were and how much she diverts from the point of the story. He is not known for his patience, I'm afraid. So I guess this has been a pattern for him for a long time. Need to ask myself if I can accept it or not. I used to see it as my way of helping him unload the burden of his day, to help him relax. Now I see it as more of everything being about him and not so much about me. Lack of balance in the R.
So do I look at the conversation in the kitchen as a baby step forward? Did setting a boundary the other night make him respect me more so that he could open up a little bit of himself in front of me?
Or should I look at it as him avoiding any talk of R, any real connection and more of the same old behavior?
S8 was very happy that his dad rushed home to tuck him in while I was away. You see, his dad had NEVER (I am not exaggerating) tucked him in during the work week. He worked late every night and would not see his children in the morning either so he only ever saw them on Sundays and maybe some Saturdays as he worked on Sats as well. So he was estatic that his dad put him first for ten days (well nine as he didn't make it one night). You should have seen the look on his face when he talked about it. I think he got a lot of self-esteem out of it.
It's so sad because I practically MADE his dad do it as he didn't volunteer in the past or even volunteer for it this time. So sad because I am finally at a stage of thinking of moving away to be closer to my family. So sad because my son attaches so much importance to the presence of his dad and his dad has NO CONCEPT of how important he is in his kids' lives. So sad because I can see all of this and have very little say in the matter. All I can is just encourage H's parenting. His every effort eventhough his heart is really in his achievements at work. I know this. I think even OW's charms pales in comparison to the charms of his work. He is obssessed with it, that is why he is successful. I am very sad for my children.I am very sad for my children.
He thinks he has a good balance but I am very subtly trying to change the dynamic of his R with the kids by being more hands-off on purpose and having H take care of them more. A big 180 for me and not my nature at all. I read somewhere on this BB that the more a person invests in something, the more valuable it becomes to them. I want H to feel more invested in the kids so he can feel their value to him. I was wrong in the past for doing everything for them so that H was left with almost nothing to do for them ( My Mother was the same way so I was following a pattern.) I thought I was helping out in the family cause that I was the stay at home mom so it was my 'job' to do everything and relieve my H of some of the parenting duties. I know that was the wrong technique now. He ended up not bonding enough with them and bonding with his work instead. I was very wrong in my assumption that H was like my dad in that dad put his family first. In the last couple of years, I did try to back off a bit and have my H take care of them for a couple of hours on Sunday but he became bitter about it. I guess I had already spoiled him and he thought that I had unloaded onto him. I don't think he thinks that anymore and is more centered in his way of thinking about the children, therapy has helped. But also that he is starting to look at them not as a burden but as more of a joy. I am glad to our counsellor for that.
Hi there PM. You sound like you're doing everything right at the moment. Keep it up.
As for what you say about trying to encourage your H to take more of an active roll in his children, I think that would be a good thing. The way I see it is that he must be very unsure how to be around them since he's never really had that active a roll with them. Although I saw my S every day, I was always the less active parent due to my work. I would always look to my W for validation any time I suggested something for him. That was suddenly taken away and I was left to make the decisions myself when I had Wee Man to myself. It was a steep learning curve for me even though I'd already had a lot of interaction with him every day. There are times I still feel like calling my W for advice when something's going on with him. I do manage to stop myself though as I don't think it's healthy. I need to prove to my W that I'm a good Dad and can handle whatever my S gets up to. It's driven by fear of doing something wrong. I can see that this is probably where your H is as well. His bitterness with you when you leave him alone with the kids may be born out of fear. I know because I've experienced it to a lesser extent.
What you're doing with congratualting him with any good parenting skills he exhibits is a good thing. It will help to increase his confidence in what he's doing and therefore increase the pleasure and pride he has while spending time with them. He struggles to spend time alone with them because he's never had to do it before. Parenting is something you're going to have to teach him. I think a good way of doing this is by slowly increasing the time he spends alone with them gradually. Eventually it may even get to the stage that they can stay over with him. I know this will be hard on you because you've always had your kids with you but I think it will also help your M in the long run.
The fact of the matter is that regardless of how things are going between the two of you, he has to start taking responsibility for his two wonderful children. When he starts appreciating them and enjoying them more, he'll see that they are something the OW can never offer. When he gets bitten by the parenting bug, nothing else will come close. Not his work, his OW or even you. The difference is that with you, your kids are something that you can very much enjoy together. IMO this can only bring you closer together as a couple.
As I've said before, I don't know your H so what I've written may be completely off the mark. By what you've said about him though, it sounds to me as though your H is just now beginning to discover the wonder of being a parent. Work on that and see where it takes you.
You're doing fantastic. Keep smiling.
Kev
Kev,
Thank you so so so much for giving me your POV. That was fantastic! You really explained what my H might be thinking by presenting a father's POV. I am so thankful. I think you nailed it on the head, he is acting out of fear!! It makes perfect sense! I know he loves his kids but I didn't know why he looked resentful and uncomfortable, silly me thought that it had to do with ME. But no, it was his insecurity! Wow, thanks so much for your insight.
Also, what you said about him not being able to enjoy the kids with OW was exactly what my IC said but what you said made it more clear in my head. thank you! I will continue to encourage him in his parenting and will do so without resentment or wonder. I will do it because it makes more sense now and can approach it from a better POV. I really really hope that he will be bitten by the parenting bug. I hope that nothing will measure in comparison, if he has that I will be a very happy Mom. Thank you very much for those words, Kev :-)
I know I am a tough old cookie in many ways, but it amazes me that a wife would have to compliment her H about his parenting skills! After all, it took both of you to bring them into this world and both of you are their parents. Does he compliment you for how you are such a great mother? Maybe he does and I just missed those posts. But, I suppose if that is what you have to do, so be it. I really do not know how you endure his selfishness but as I have said before, you certainly have a lot of grace. I do believe he should be accountable for telling the children of his plans instead of going through you and pushing the dirty work off on you. Even though it is him that is falling down on his job as a father, whenever you are the one that has to break the news to the kids, they are angry at "you" even if they don't mean to be. It is kind of like the doctor that has to give the bad diagonisis to the patient and they are angry at him. He is making you out to be the bad guy by always having to tell the kids that he isn't going to be around and you are handing them a package of disappointment. That is very unfair to you and he needs to be an adult parent and he should be made to face his kids or at least talk to them by phone.....none of that email, cowardly way. I'm afraid I would not have been able to wait 24 hours to say anything to him, either. He wants to pretend he isn't a father, and that he is young, single and carefree. Did you notice how he used the expression "boys time" when refering to keeping his son? It is just a suggestion, but if I were you, I would refuse to be his delivery person of disappointing news from now on and he can tell his children his own plans. Either that, or tell him that you are going to allow them to read the emails he sends you regarding his plans, since he is too much of a coward to tell them himself.
I just don't have much respect for a man like that. For your sake, I hope he grows up soon. I apologize for sounding so sarcastic and certainly was not aiming any of that toward you.
Take care,
Sandi
Hi Sandi, I know, I know. After listening to CIW's point of view, I have a little more sympathy for H. You see when someone is insecure, they need a lot of reassurance. Remember the first time you drove a car? Or when you started a new hobby like tennis or something? You want people to tell you how you are doing it right, not how you are doing it wrong. The more encouragement you get, the more you would like the activity and enjoy it and take pleasure in it. As I see it, the more pleasure it gives my H in his parenting role, my kids get most of the rewards - they get a loving father. I want to be able to give that to my children!!!
So yes, I am sarcastic as well in regards to, why don't I get any kudos from HIM. But I need to let my pride down and say to myself, if the rewards go to my kids then that is the BEST outcome for me.
I don't have low self-esteem. I know I am a good mom. I don't need someone else to tell me that, to validate my role. My goal is the happiness of my children in this matter.
Everything else can wait, our R, everything. I want my kids protected and happy.
Kev, I started on your book, 'No more Mr Nice Guy' yesterday. Wow!!
At first my intention was to read it and try to find out qualities that I had so I can solve them. BUT when I continue to get into it, I saw my H in Mr Nice Guy. Totallly not what I was expecting from the book. It described him to a 'T'!!! I am so excited about this book. Because it really gives me a window into his personality and his motivations.
1) Like that he looks to females in his life to give him approval. He basically said that to me when the bomb dropped, 'You don't approve of me.' I thought, WTH?????
2) He thought my moods were getting him down, I know why now. He thinks I am not approving or accepting of him EVEN when I am upset about something that is TOTALLY unconnected to him. OMG!! It's all about him! Why does he thinks everything is connected to him???
3) Attachments. He put on a really good show to his Mom to show what a 'great dad' he was when she visited. He needs external validation. The great job, the beautiful kids, his achievements, his house etc. Now I understand that he doesn't think he is good enough in himself. His Dad never approved of his as a child and I think he carries a lot of the 'I am bad, I am not good enough' attitude with him thru his life.
4) Walls - work addiction, humor, sarcasm, intellectualism, perfectionism and isolation. He had ALL of those traits under Walls. Wow!
5) Covert contracts - yes, we use them in our R all the time. Now I have a name for them and it all makes sense. No wonder I found it hard to talk about anything serious. He likes to use covert contracts. The problem was, I didn't know what was expected of me so I couldn't keep up my end. He said he wanted 'calm days'. The book even explained that if he was to do everything right then he would be happy. A Major misconception!
6) Disconnected with other men. I have often thought H did not have close male role models. I think he tried to find it in the workplace and have succeeded to some extent but they were not intimate relationships i.e. sharing feelings, more drinking buddies sort of thing.
Kev, I am only halfway thru the book but is very excited. It's like you handed me a handbook on my H and for this I am eternally grateful. I can't stop thinking about all the themes in the book.
Do you find yourself identifying with the Nice Guy Syndrome? If you do, I would like to talk more indepth with you about the details so I can find out why my H behaves in certain ways. E.g. your explanation about him wanting recognition of his parenting skills was spot-on, I think. Thanks so much.
PM, more hints.
Look at my sitch...what type of e-mail did I mention...
Then
Look at my nickname and add 6096 to it with no spaces.
let me know.
PM, I'm glad you're finding so much from NMMNG. It was a really interesting read. The one thing I would ask is that if you truly think it represents your H so well, should it not really be him who's reading it? It's a book to try and break the 'Nice Guy' syndrome in someone who has it.
As for whether I found myself identifying with the syndrome, the answer would have to be most definitely. After reading the book I discovered that I was an a-typical Nice Guy. I found it refreshing to finally have the answers to why I was like I was. Dr Glover definitely has something there. What I would like to see from him though is a book more based in saving marriage from a nice guy's perspective. NMMNG is definitely more about saving yourself (possibly at the expense of everything else). For a time I did visit the forum based on the book but soon stopped after getting advice time and again to just ditch my W and move on to be a better person. It wasn't doing me any good. I'm sure that in certain situations, those answers would be valid but they weren't the ones I was wanting to hear. The warning that Dr Glover gives in his book is that when applied in a relationship, the principles he suggests may very well break it as much as fix it.
So, I would say that I took from NMMNG the parts which I thought would help my M and ignored those that wouldn't. Probably not the best way to do it but at the time I was living in fear of losing my W. It's thanks to that book that I reclaimed my marital bed for instance. I think maybe I might read it again from the perspective that I'm now a LBH. It might even make more sense this time round.
I'm more than willing to discuss all this more in depth with you or anything else PM. I'm thinking I'm going to be visiting these boards for a long time to come so I'll be here whenever you need me.
Kev
Yes, I am reading more and in the later chapters, they sort of gloss over the specific problems with the wife and most of the time, the wife is just a vague human being who is being very unreasonable. That does not paint a true picture of both sides of the story nor is it fair to not address the needs of the other person involved in the M. As well, they seem to give up pretty quickly, don't they. The attitude of, well, if it isn't working for me, I'll just go out to find something better, she is unreasonable and I am justified. Wow! So I see your point about the BB might not be where you and I are at this moment. It sounds too much like what my H's attitude is. He thinks that the M is doomed, nothing in the R will change even if he is growing so why bother to try at all. Not a good attitude.
But there are many merits as well and his observations are excellent. I just don't think he is a marriage counsellor or marriage saver like Michele.
Kev, can you tell me, if Mr Nice Guy thinks he has tried his darndest to please his woman and thinks that he can't succeed (for whatever reason in his head), what would it take to change his mind about the situation? I guess my question is, I have made a lot of changes in myself this past year - H is not interested and does not ask about me but I sense he is still seeking approval from me. To tell you the truth, it is a lot of pressure to continue to give him kudos and constant reassurance. He needs to find his personal power but what can I do? Do I say anything? Do I keep feeding him approval or do I just step back from the picture all together? I don't want him dependent on me for approval since the book says it's unhealthy but I do want to encourage him in his parenting. What would you do if you were in my H's shoes?
PM, you really are an amazing woman. I should be more like you. I have never been good at validating my H. I always felt so fake when trying to do it. I don't have a problem with anyone else, so why would I have a problem with him.
When we were going through our bad time after he found out about OM, he told me that he never felt like I was there for him. I almost fell through the floor and then it made me mad b/c (without going through pages to explain) I felt that I had devoted my life to trying to support him and be there for him in whatever he did. When I mentioned just a few things to remind him, he then said that he did not know how to "explain" what he meant. He never has been able to communicate with me about his feelings. It has been a "guessing game" for me our entire M b/c he did not know how to express much of anything.
I compliment him on how nice he looks or things he has done, but I don't think he feels it is enough. However, it goes both ways. Whenever I have brought up the subject of him not validating me.....he acts shocked that I don't "just know it" and nobody should have to tell me.
So, maybe you could help me learn how to validate him without feeling or sounding like I am being as fake as a $3 bill. (I hear the $2 are back...LOL)
I want you to know that when I bring up anything in your stitch, I am not giving you a 2x4, but only expressing my own POV. I think you are an example for all the LBW's that want to stand for their M as long as there is hope.
Take care,
Sandi
Hi Sandi, thanks for your truly kinds words! First of all, I have read many of your threads and never have I thought you gave two-by-fours, you just told the truth as you see it. I am that way also. To us, it's not about nice or not but more importantly what the truth of the matter is. So don't worry about hurting my feelings, they are not hurt. I understand that a difference of opinion does not equate to not liking or respecting someone. Two separate issues altogether!
I find that our normally articulate, capable husbands can be totally mute of matters on the heart. They really ARE unable to communicate and process feelings the way we women can. So what you have now is a sitch that seems like each thought the other were not there for each other. No use crying over who is right and who is wrong, you know that. So I guess you want to start right now to validate him and feel OK about it inside yourself. It's easy!!! Really easy, Sandi!!!
I read somewhere that general compliments do not work for guys. Don't ask me why, just is. But compliments with specifics works like magic.
E.g. "Thanks for doing the yard work yesterday" can be turned into 'The garden looks so much better after you put the new mulch down. It smells good and looks good. That was a great idea that you had to buy more perenials this year. It looks SO much than last year. I love it! I love the smell of freshly cut grass too, thanks so much, the yard looks fantastic. How about I make your favorite dessert tonight to thank you in return?'
OR
"You look nice today" to "Wow, that shirt and tie combo really looks good on you. Your skin looks more tanned and your eyes really come out with the blue on that shirt. Hunky! Want to fool around tonight?"
Now, it doesn't hurt to think up things in advance either. Would you go into an interview without preparing for it? Would your favorite football team go into a game without a plan? Just jot a few things down that you like about your H. Then write down specifics about those things. Be truthful, don't makeup something to say just because you are stuck. Try to have it come from the heart. Then when the moment is right, pop, out it comes! He may or may not be used to it at first so could be a little wary but on the inside he will swoon. Now, if you guys are not on good terms and he accuses you of being fake but since you really mean these compliments (you do, don't you?) you can just tell him honestly (making eye contact) that you mean it. I doubt that will happen though, my H and I are not on the greatest terms now but he reacts very positively when I give re-enforcements. Guys are suckers for compliments.
Now, regarding feeling fake - you may or maybe feel comfortable the first time you do it. But it is like riding a bike. (My daughter just start a two-wheeler.) You may be wobbly at first, unsure of yourself and stumble a little over your words. DON'T WORRY. The more you practice, the more comfortable you will feel. Nothing new feels comfortable, everything takes a little time to get used to, right? So give it a shot, give him a specific compliment today. See what happens, I will wait for your good news.
PM, I've just written a gargantuan post on my own thread and I'm planning on going to sleep soon. I just thought I'd check in on you though and saw that you asked me a question about explaining what you could to change the mind of a 'Nice Guy' if he'd tried everything in the past to please you but not succeded.
In a way, that's a hard question for me to answer because in my sitch I'm the nice guy who isn't willing to give up just yet. Down the line, I may be in a position where my W wants me back but I've moved on. Who knows?
I'll tell you what I can. The way I found out about Divorce Busting and this site was from MWD's book on sex starved marriages. Initially I thought that the only problem in my marriage was that we'd stopped being intimate. I tried everything I could to initiate it and try and get my W interested again but nothing seemed to work. Even non sexual affection was being initiated by me. If my W hadn't decided she didn't love me and things had remained like that between us, I think I may even have ended up leaving myself eventually. It would have taken me a lot longer than it took her though. I just didn't feel loved any more. I'm the kind of person who needs hugs and to hold hands to feel loved. My W used to be and it hurt me when she changed. That's why I started trying to improve our situation. Unfotunately though, I didn't get right to the root of the problem soon enough. I never realised how bad things had become.
Fast forward to now though and if my W asked if we could give it another shot, I would have to tread very cautiously. I'd need to be sure in my mind that my W was willing to give me those things that I need to feel loved and I would have to believe that she meant them. In that respect she would need to change. I would also be willing to change whatever I could to make her happier in the M. It sounds to me that you've already made a load of changes which have made you in to the wonderful person you are today. To be honest though, the one thing I think it's going to take for your H to wake up and see those changes is to get rid of the OW. When she's out of the picture I think he may start to notice those changes even more. I still believe by showing him how wonderful family life can be through your children, you have a good chance of outshining the OW.
I realise that this probably isn't too much of a help to you but I promise you I'll think some more about it and try to see if I can come up with something better.
Kev
Hi Kev,
I take what you say very seriously. Thank you very much for your post. I am deeply appreciative that you have been honest and vulnerable enough to let me know about the intimate details of your M. I know it must hurt like heck to write it all down for the world to see. You are one brave soul.
Your words:
I'd need to be sure in my mind that my W was willing to give me those things that I need to feel loved and I would have to believe that she meant them. In that respect she would need to change. I would also be willing to change whatever I could to make her happier in the M.
They really really help. Why didn't I think of that? I don't know. Of course, H would feel this way. I think this way too but was unable to formulate it in my head. Now, I need to think about what those things would be to have him feel loved. I need to think of those things for me as well because instinctively I didn't feel loved either, and that was what brought on the moods, I think. Having a passive-agressive Nice Guy H means that I am in a guessing game most of the time because he has the covert contracts in place. Ughhh. So difficult. To tell you the truth we had ML regularly right up to the night before I found out about his A! And we talk to each other everynight, all the time. I felt vulnerable yes, because he fessed up to a ONS the year before but honestly I thought he truly loved me and thought we were still very much connected. That's why it was a bomb. I really had very little signs of major problems. We had renewed our vows in November even. What a shock.
Anyway, thanks for the insight. Keep them coming, I need all the help I can get. Thanks.
Sandi, if you are out there, what finally made you turn your attention back to your H and return to your M again?
Hey PM, I've really been thinking a lot about your sitch and whether I can give you any more help with trying to understand where your H is coming from. It could be the case that I'm quite like your H in many ways. If my M had gone on like it was, there's every chance that I may have found the affection I needed in the arms of another woman although it shames me to admit it. I was seeing no kind of affection at all from my W prior to the bomb. I'll give you an example of how bad it had gotten. I ML twice last year! Once on valentine's night and once on Wee Man's birthday. I put it down to the fact that we'd just never really found our feet again since she'd given birth. In that respect I guess I was a little naive. The reason she wouldn't ML to me is because she didn't think she loved me.
The main area our sitch's differ is that you are completely different from my W by the sounds of things. That could be because you are more mature and have already lived thorough many of the changes that my W has yet to experience. At the heart of it though, you believe that you weren't showing your H enough affection so he found it somewhere else. If I were you, I'd discount that idea completely. No matter how little affection you were showing him, it doesn't excuse what he did. He took the weak way out as far as I'm concerned. I've alrady admitted that I may have gotten to that stage myself eventually but not before I had tried to fix the problem in whatever way I could. My W never gave me that chance as it turned out but what she has given me is a chance to work harder to better myself.
I imagine that a few years ago, if you had left your H because you didn't feel the same love for him it would be him that was visiting this site trying to get help. I don't think it takes much for the shoe to be on the other foot. It could be something as simple as opportunity. It's human nature to want what we can't have and to feel destroyed by rejection.
I remember a time many years ago when I was young and stupid that I cheated on a girlfriend of mine. We then split up because of it (by my choice). We talked openly after we split up and she admitted to me that before I'd cheated on her she was on the verge of ending it anyway. Since I'd cheated on her she realised that she really did want to be with me and pursued me for a long time after. I'd moved on though. It was only a couple of years later that I realised what a fool I'd been and that my ex and I had been really good together. I would have been more than willing to get back together at that point but she'd already moved on. This is why I know that I have to learn patience in myself and resist moving on too quickly. It would be so easy for me now to call it a day and go find myself someone else. I'm certainly lonely enough to do it on occasion. I know that I still love my W more than anything though and would only ever regret a decision like that in the long run.
I think I've gotten carried away with writing down my own life story here PM so I'm sorry. Hopefully there will be something among all the nonsense that helps you in some way. For some reason my mind is just running away with ideas today and I seem to be writing them down. Didn't mean to hi-jack your thread. Keep smiling.
Kev
Hi PM, just checking in. I always like what you have to say even in the face of adversity (Our H's), you always find a way to put thing in a positive way.
This is a trying time and we have to remain positive. take care.
Thank you Kev and Hope for your words. Kev, it's really great that you are opening up and sharing your life with us. I am glad you feel it is safe to do so and it explains a lot about the kind of person you are today. You once made a mistake and you don't want to make the same mistake again, fair enough. I wonder why she thought she didn't love you anymore. Were there any signs? Any complaints or hints? To tell you the truth, my H and I were intimate again six weeks post partum with me breastfeeding and everything. Don't know if that is too soon or not as I don't ask many people questions like that. But I was just wondering...
I would agree with you in that I am very different from your W but I think I can still bring a woman's perspective into things. I know men and women think VERY differently. Do you really think that your W didn't think you were fun anymore and that is why you felt she didn't find you attractive? Is there more to it than that?
Anyway, work is going very well for me. I have to say that every other part of my life is going swimmingly well! How ironic! Because my H left me, I now have a new profession that let me work from home. I put in hours I want around the kids schedule and my exercise routine. I don't have a H so I can work at nights as well. What is even better is that I am getting more and more work opportunities so it's growing. I now have more closer relationships with my girlfriends and we talk about real things as opposed to just 'how are you, I am fine' - kind of thing, my relationship with my family has improved and I look better than I have in ten years! Really, I look better than when I was 30. Can't believe it myself but is taking care of myself and also dressing better everyday so I feel good and nice looking and sexy. I feel great when I walk out of the door in the morning. I feel everything is lining up really nicely. I just have a really screwed up M.
My C asked me today how I feel about things. I told him I feel that I am ready and willing to work on me and my part in the breakdown of M but the biggest deal-breaker is the A and OW. I can't work on this by myself. But if this doesn't work out, I need to move away. Can't stay in this city, not good for me or the kids. Can't have our world be about whether dad will show up or not or why he didn't come to such and such event and so on. It's way too stressful for us. If we moved away then we can just live our life with no expectations of his comings and goings and whether he will call or not. It took me a long time to be OK with this move thing. I tried to resist it but I know in the end, it's the best for us. I think I will give this to the end of the year. If he hasn't decided to work on M with me, then we will go. Not trying to manipulate or anything but can't stay here and be in limbo-land waiting for him to come out of fog. It would be almost two years from 2nd bomb and 3 years from first bomb.
I think he will help us move and let us go because it would be best for the kids but I think later on he will look back and regret this decision in his life. Maybe not now, maybe a few years later but when he is older and his A fades and he is out of MLC and he is looking for deeper meaning to his life, he will find himself with little or no connection with his kids, he will regret this. I feel sad for him but I cannot be responsible for his happiness. He is. This is his decision, not mine. I feel he is looking very hard for 'happiness'. I think he won't find it.
PM, it sounds to me as though you are now having very healthy thoughts about your sitch. That's a really good thing and I'm really happy for you in that respect.
It's also great that you're feeling so much better about yourself with your new career and physical appearance. I know I'm losing weight and that I'm a lot fitter than I have been in a long time but I've still not reached the point that I can really look in the mirror and like what I see. Hopefully it will come over time though. I just have to lose that last bit of weight to reach my target and get a bit more toned.
I've wondered almost continuously about what it is that made my W fall out of love with me PM. Yes, there were signs. The intimacy was gone. We were communicating less and less. I guess I wasn't able to let myself believe that my M was going down the toilet. I convinced myself that it was just a minor hurdle after the birth of Wee Man. Don't all married couples go through low points? I always looked to the future though when Wee Man was a little older and we could go away as a family and enjoy our lives so much more. I looked at that as a fix. The only problem was that it never came in time to save my M. The first holiday abroad was supposed to be in July of this year. I'd convinced myself if we could hold on until then we'd manage to find our love again.
I don't know how else to describe my M. I always did what I could to give my W and Wee Man whatever I could. Not only material things. I also shaped my career around them to give them as much of my time as I could. In that I really succeeded. I work 9-5, Monday to Friday and get an hour off for lunch every day. I live close enough to my work that I can get home. On paper we were the perfect couple. Everyone thought we'd last forever. There was never any abuse, verbal or physical. It was rare for us even to argue.
All that is why I think the only reason must be that she didn't find me fun any more. I was dependable, loving, financially secure and generous. As you so rightly say men and women think very differently so I'll probably never understand her reasons.
Anyway, I'll go now. I've just had a wine supplier past for a tasting night so I'm feeling a little light headed. Take care. I'll hear from you soon.
Kev
Girlfriends are the best. They keep my head up and keep me sane in times of chaos and madness. I bounce ideas off them and they are gentle in their reply and they are always on MY side.
Had coffee with some genuinely caring, older girlfriends today. They help me think through my situation and also to sympathize. I wish everyone on this board has friends like these. I feel very blessed. A few years back I was in dire need of some girlfriends because I had none and my prayers were answered in abundance. Now I have these wonderful friends to help me carry my burden and to think clearly again.
Those who are here, don't be afraid to reach out to your friends. You will find out real quick who have your best interest at heart and who doesn't. But for those who are there to support you, you have found a gem. Keep them close and treasure your those friendships.
Hi PM, just saw you posted. Glad you are feeling stronger.
One day at a time. I struggle like you "should I stay or go". My issue is D15 wants to finish school here and I am not sure I can stay and watch this A continue with OW and who knows what H will do if D goes through. Not that strong.
Keep in touch. You are in my thoughts and prayers.
Hi journaling today,
I do feel better this week. Don't know if it has to do with the counselling sessions last week. But this week I am filled with hope and I feel that either way (whether my H comes back or not), I will be OK. My C asked me if I still love my H. Yes, I do. I prefer to think that he is lost, that he is depressed and low and is out seeking SOMETHING to bring back happiness. He is doing it in a VERY destructive way. But it is outside of my control. I see the future. I see that he cannot be happy inside for what he has done. He is not a man without morals. He is suffering inside. I feel compassion for him. Because this path he has chosen will not give him the happiness and the peace he craves, he will continue to act out.
He will not listen to me. I am the scapegoat and there is no talking to him. I can only settle down, have patience and improve myself. I am improving. I feel that after two years of storm and insecurity, I have much more patience than before. I feel that I am a little wiser and a much more forgiving person. My temper has died down a lot, I am a lot less angry with the world. I do not ask anymore, why is this happening to me? I assume that everything has happened because it needs to. It happened so that I could learn from my mistakes, my hurdles in life and I am grateful. I am grateful for these lessons and my kids and I will reap the rewards.
I hope that my H will complete and have successful journey like me. I hope that he will learn to like himself again and reconcile with himself over his actions. Right now, he is fighting it, his struggles are on his face, in his manners. I feel for him but I no longer feel that I have to help him bear his burden or to fix them.
My success have nothing to do with whether he returns and reconciles with me. My success is a result of the work I do within myself, the hard look at the ugliness and weaknesses that is inside of me. I recognized them and now I am free from them.
I hope that one day I will find someone to love again, someone who will love me a appreciate me and the growth that I have achieved. I now have a newfound respect for myself and I feel good.
Beautiful post PositiveMom,
I'm dealing with a similar, lost H. I'm inspired by your strength and words.
You will indeed find someone who appreciates you someday.
Very like mine also PM and SF. A crystal ball would be nice. How long is to long.
I also have been a very agry person in my life and my experiance has reversed that emotion in me, but to the detrament of this situation as I cant seem to get angry at H and I think that it adds to depression.
Are either of you angry at your S
But this week I am filled with hope and I feel that either way (whether my H comes back or not), I will be OK. My C asked me if I still love my H. Yes, I do. I prefer to think that he is lost, that he is depressed and low and is out seeking SOMETHING to bring back happiness. He is doing it in a VERY destructive way. But it is outside of my control.
I'm so glad you are having a great attitude. I do think to a great extent it's out of our control b/c I think many of our WAS are addicts in some way. My H is addicted to the OW and I have learned to accept that. It's not about me at all, just like if he was addicted to alcohol it has more to do with him than me. Karen
Hi PM sorry just another question and please forgive me if this is an insensitive question and please dont answer if it is.
Is the OW very different from you in every area - intelligence, size, looks, colouring , etc
Hi Pollyanna, Karen and SilverFox.
Karen, an A is definitely a drug, make no bones about it. There are scientific studies that show that the 'fall in love' feeling affects your brain. So that's why it feels so good. There are a lot of studies to show that our body will acclimate to this feeling (as with all pain and ecstasy and all drugs) so in order to feel the same 'high' the person needs to get the next fix, the next high and more and more to feel good again. That's why if someone is addicted to this 'high' they are in for pain because it CANNOT last. This person may seek other highs elsewhere (as in other OW's or other drugs) but not with the same thing again and again. The 'falling in love' phase lasts two years max.
Pollyanna,I can feel your frustrations, your questions tells me that you have a dire need to find answers and that if you have the answers, maybe you can make sense of things and work this whole mess out. You will feel this way for a few months, I am afraid and sorry but you won't find all of your answers. Think about whether you REALLY need answers to make you happy. What does it achieve? Can it reverse matters? Not really. All you can do is move forward.
Yes, at times I am angry with H. More for the fact that I feel I love him more than he loved me. But now I understand this to be a judgment. My DB coach says that judgement will KILL intimacy and marriages. So I try not to think that way anymore. So I am trying very hard to not judge him but to find compassion for him. For his destructive efforts to find himself, to understand the pain he must be in. I am disappointed that he has shut me out of his journey but I understand he must do this alone. I don't even think he is including OW in this journey. I feel he must be concealing his weaknesses from her to show his best side.
OW is different from me, yes. She is his co-worker so she sees him everyday at work - his obsession. So it must be wonderful to share an obsession with someone. She looks different from me, colouring is the same. My H says that he finds her cheerful and I am trying to work on that for myself. I don't want to be a grumpy gus forever, no matter what kind of justification I have for it. I don't want to be a victim and announce to the world that I am JUSTIFIED in being angry and grumpy because my H cheated on me. No. I want to be happy and relaxed because I have survived these hurdles and knows that I am a GOOD person.
I have met OW about five times before I found out about A but don't really know her at all. But in fact, I really don't care. I am not going to waste brain cells obsessing over her. She is not worth it basically. I am the one I need to work on, I want to think about my kids. A much better and more enjoyable way to spend my time, don't you think Pollyanna?
Hi PM
It's lovely to hear you sounding so positive and supportive of others. I'm so glad you're finding your way laong this hard road. I know, I know I've talked about it a lot but I really am going to contact a DB coach if this is the effect it is having on you. I need someone to give me some ideas, someone to reassure me from a professional point of view. I love all the support and encouragement I'm getting here but I think it's time to seek the help of the pros too. I'll let you know how it goes.
Keep Smiling
Kev
Great Kev, that sounds good. Getting a plan in place will put you in more control of the situation. Also, it focuses your energies and make this mess a bit easier to deal with. The pros are great.
Thanks PM. I know OW in my case is very different and the very opposite of what H found attractive in me ! Wondered if that was a common occurance to choose someone almost opposite.
Yes I know that my focus must shift from H. Getting there slowly.
Thanks PM. I know OW in my case is very different and the very opposite of what H found attractive in me ! Wondered if that was a common occurance to choose someone almost opposite.
Yes!!! I've seen this posted about several times here and it's apparently pretty common. I'm a stay at home mom devoted to the kids and OW is a workaholic lawyer. From what people tell me (that know us both) she's my total opposite. I'm tall, she's short. It's weird, but have seen that in many cases here!!! Karen
Karen, I can't believe it! I am a stay at home Mom also and OW is a workaholic lawyer as well!
Although, I worked before the kids came along, I was never a workaholic. I love my balanced lifestyle. Now I have 4 part-time jobs and still get to spend time with my kids because I am careful to pick jobs that give me maximum flexibility.
But I think it all goes back to what others say about it's how the OW makes H feels that is what is attractive. Our H's fell in love with the feeling, not the person, I think. The rush is the aphrodisiac. The person can remain unchanged but once the rush is gone, then they find themselves out of love. It's not a mature way to look at a relationship but I don't think our H's are thinking right at the moment. There are some H's that are serial cheaters and are constantly seeking the rush, going from one OW to another. These OW have not changed! They come in all shapes and sizes. But the H's are addicted to the high.
I really believe that looks, personality, work ethic, all of that is secondary to the 'feel' of the new R. Yes, men are very visual creatures but our H's didn't fall in love with beautiful, gorgeous women. They fell in love with how OW made them feel. I think if we concentrate on that then we have got something.
So if you want to play the game to win back H, I would concentrate on making H feel good about himself (eventhough he has done many horrible things to you and is not worthy of your trust and love just yet). Not be dishonest with yourself or throw all your self-respect aside. But more with a compassionate heart for his problems and your M issues. Just because we are wives, we don't have to act like wives. We should be acting like mistresses to lure them back (if that is what we want).
If your goal is to be vindicated, then alienate him, make him run into OW's arms so he gets his highs and feels good about himself because he knows he has screwed up and is feeling guilty to begin with. Rubbing his face into his mess will only drive you further apart. I know at first I couldn't get over the feeling of hurt and there were moments that I really wanted to hurt him back. And I had to ask myself some very difficult questions. What kind of person am I? Am I a hypocrite? Would I sink to his level and hurt the one that I proclaim to love forever? I had to really look hard and make decisions to not hurt anyone, to preserve my dignity and let karma and God take care of the rest.
It is up to all of us to make this choice, whichever one feels more right to each person. I don't think there is a right or a wrong in this matter. It's more of a question of whether you think your M is salvagable or not.
Karen, I can't believe it! I am a stay at home Mom also and OW is a workaholic lawyer as well!
That is so weird!!!
And I had to ask myself some very difficult questions. What kind of person am I? Am I a hypocrite? Would I sink to his level and hurt the one that I proclaim to love forever? I had to really look hard and make decisions to not hurt anyone, to preserve my dignity and let karma and God take care of the rest.
I think a lot like that too. I think your H is such a fool!!!! I predict at some point he's going to kick himself!!!
I don't think there is a right or a wrong in this matter. It's more of a question of whether you think your M is salvagable or not.
I agree. Do you think your M is salvagable or not? I kind of think most are, but you have to have 2 people willing to work on the issues, so until that happens I wouldn't have to worry about it. I think when you have kids, you also have to act differently about it and try to keep a good R no matter what happens, or at least I try to.
Karen
I find NC is the best defence ( although h still manages to blame me for so much ). NC allows me not to be mean or to feel like a doormat.
BUT take emotion out of equation and what are you left with ... a H with OW and who kows how long all that will last. a few weeks, months or years meanwhile are you protecting what is rightfully yours and your kids.
Absolutely it is the feeling OW gives that is the rush. This is evident in my case by who he has chosen. She empathisess with him is all he says when anyone asks " What the F*&^ are you doing " so good news to hear that it is only temporary.
Hi PM, you always put things so beautifully.
I was looking around for something about "trading down" or "affairing down" with the Ow.
It basically says that when H finds other woman he is not looking for best looking and if that happens it is mostly by accident. What he is looking for is someone to feed his ego and look up to him and meet his emotional needs. But for the H he has basically "traded down" because even though the OW is meeting his needs she is also cheating and basically has lowered her own standards. I will have to look for it.
Karen, Pollyanna and Hope. I think most marriages are salvagable unless there is some kind of abuse or addiction involved. Sorry, Hope, your H's sitch is a real tough one.
I am an optimist so I think that there are a lot of things that people can compromise on. Yes, I have my principles and values but I also have a lot of self-imposed rules as well which are not solid rules per se but just ways that I like to do things. Like most people, I get annoyed when I don't get my way. I am now looking at ways to curb my anger and annoyance and talk myself into a calmer state of mind and not get upset over everything that does not adhere to my view of the world.
It's a change that is long overdue. I didn't always used to be this way. I remember very clearly that I was a happy-go-lucky sort of teenager and always had a smile on my face. But life slowly became more complicated, moving, kids, landlords etc. Everything accumulates and my mind is filled with thoughts of problems or lists of things to do etc. So I became annoyed easily because one thing affects ten others that needs to be done so the whole process gets delayed. It's just everyday stress but it would show on my face and my tone of voice.
It was therapeutic for me to let it out and talk about it and moan about it. But it was a big turnoff for my H. Now I know, too late but can't change history. So I am working on that aspect on myself, for me, not for anyone else. I don't want to affect negatively on my kids or my other relationships. So I am trying to be more aware of my speech, sighs and annoyance levels and try to tone eveything down. Being aware is wisdom. I want to be wise.
PM, no matter what we will be better people even if our H's never come to that realization. What a shame what they will miss -- the new improved us. We can only pray for this.
I have been doing personal inventory everyday and trying to make small changes a day at a time.
I read on another site that we need to make these improvements to be ready for when our H's decide to find their way back. They said if your doorbell rang right now and it was your H -- would YOU be ready. Would you be in the right frame of mind to accept your H and all that goes with it. Gives you something to think about.
I know that I need to work on some projects in the house, actually have a long list. Need to keep focused on the long term goal.
take care
The more I think about it, the more I wonder if the 'old' H would come back. Actually it's quite nice during the week when I don't expect him to come around and I don't see him. The kids and I have a nice life together, low stress, we have many laughs and it's actually quite a pleasant life. But when the weekends roll around, I wonder what time he will show up, if he will be late, if he would let us down, if he would rush the kids to get into bed so he could go and have his 'me' time. Happens every Sunday. He rushes things because he wants to get away.
It makes me think that I don't want him around so much. I man I loved, the man I cared about and who cared about me doesn't exist anymore. This is not the man I knew.
H went camping with D a couple of months ago. I just talked with her camp counsellor and she said that H was physically present but he was not really there in spirit. What a shame. I thought it would be a great opportunity for D and H to share and to bond. But it was not to be. He is so self-absorbed that he can't REALLY be there for his D. She said he would do the activities but right afterwards he would go sit by himself and not talk with anyone. I asked her if he was bonding with D and she said he just wasn't mentally there. I guess this is why they call it the fog.
Very optimistic about my own happiness. Not so optimistic about H's journey and his way back home or his way out of his self-imposed misery and moral dilemma. So wondering if it is nearly time to remove ourselves. Don't know. Hate to give up, it's just not me. But don't want to do what my aunt did. She waited ten years for my uncle to come home. He never did and he had an affair with her sister in the meantime...
PM, good attitude.
I do not want to be your aunt but like you I hate to give up.
In my case being in my 50s it really is daunting trying to start over. Not like I feel my life is over but at this point in my life I do not think I would have patience for another R. Just my feelings.
I knew my H (not this fog babble one), we just drifted and I never saw it coming.
Think it is so sad that D and H did not connect on camping trip. It is the fog. You want to tap on their head and ask "is anyone home". I see my H in meetings and he is totally out of it. That is why I believe these OW are addictions. They cannot function. H had such an opportunity to create a memory with D and sadly he retreated into his own world.
My H has not seen D since Dec. What did he miss -- seeing her for homecoming dance, sweetheart dance, her making her first goal at school, EVERYTHING. The smiles, the tears, the laughter. That as mothers we struggle with. How could they let that go and trade down to the OW.
We will know if and when to drop the rope. Has your H filed for D or are you just living apart? k
Very optimistic about my own happiness. Not so optimistic about H's journey and his way back home or his way out of his self-imposed misery and moral dilemma. So wondering if it is nearly time to remove ourselves. Don't know. Hate to give up, it's just not me. But don't want to do what my aunt did. She waited ten years for my uncle to come home. He never did and he had an affair with her sister in the meantime...
I think you as always continue to have a great attitude. My H is in the fog too, usually texting OW rather than focusing on the kids. I do think at some point they'll resurface a bit out of the fog hopefully, but what a shame to miss part of your life like that!!! And your kids!!! But they are doing that to themselves.
I don't think you have to give up. I won't until final D papers are signed. Although like you mention, I honestly think the kids and I are happier without him. He tends to be distant or angry and ruined any PMA I could have.
I think you do have to make decisions focused on you and your kids, and not your H. I mean you're married to an addict, so you have to do that. I do think there is prob. really like 50/50 chance of your H coming back, flip a coin, and you shouldn't remain in limbo waiting to see which it will be. From my time here I have to say that those who seemed to drop the rope and start making plans without their WAS, sometimes seems to shock the WAS into realizing the LBS is moving on and jolting them back to reality. But you have to make changes/choices for you and your family, not focused on your H. Karen
karen, even when the ink is dry on the D papers doesn't mean the end either. A friend told me her H did the same -- OW, wanted D, filed -- divorce goes through and 1 year later H has change of heart and they remarried and happily married 12 years later. Not for everyone but you never know.
I think we are all guilty of still trying to focus on our H at times. We have to continue to work on ourselves and keep our own sanity. PM has done a remarkable job no matter what she decides. She is already a winner!
PM,
Checking on you this morning. How are you? Will your h be around like usual this weekend?
BTW, I'm glad you're optimistic about your journey. And please, don't waste time thinking about h's journey -- totally out of your hands.
I hope you're making a great weekend for yourself and your children.
Praying for you.
Stacy
Hiya PM
I just thought I'd drop in quickly to say hi and to tell you that I think you're doing great. You seem to be getting a lot of good advice at the moment. I don't know that I can offer anything more than you're already getting. You're a great example of someone who can pick themselves up from a bad situation though. Keep smiling.
Kev
Hi Hope, Karen, Stacy and Kev,
I am not feeling my best today. Actually kind of depressed. Negative thoughts are creeping in. I guess it's natural to have ups and downs. H came to see kids this weekend, which is great for the kids. But I definitely feel a huge wall between us and no matter how hard I try to act 'as if' and sound cheerful and just be happy, I feel that the wall is so solid, there is no give at all on his part. It's not that he is rude or anything but extremely distant and deliberately so.
I feel dejected, been db'ing for so long and not seeing any small differences in our R. Maybe this is a hopeless case. I called MIL last night and said that I understand a lot about myself now and how I contributed to the breakdown of M but what I don't get is why someone wouldn't even try. Her answer is the same words that I heard H say and that is, It's so much work to try and he doesn't think it's going to work out anyway.
I told her, it's a lot of work now. It's so much work to be pleasant around the kids. Doesn't he think that D and single parenthood would be a lot of work as well? Is he trying to avoid stress, if so it would not be the way to go about it? And the upside of the M is so huge so why not put work into something that is more valuable?
I am completely shattered. I don't think I can talk to her for a long time. She is nice and I know she speaks the truth but I end up being beaten up by the end of the convo. Maybe I did ask for it. But I feel that nothing was achieved.
The thing is if someone doesn't want to try, there is no convincing them. Even if you DB your but* off. Because they are NOT looking for the signs of change. They are looking for the signs of failure in you. They are programmed to look for the faults so all the good points are taken for granted. This is especially the case when there is OW involved and they think this new person is so perfect and shiny and wonderful. So I look like a rusty old coin and she is the epitomy of perfection. I have no chance. I am given no chance.
What do you do when your spouse thinks so negatively about you? I felt rejected all over again. I feel like a failure around him. I feel like rubbish that he has thrown away. Not a nice feeling. I am not angry about it but very very sad. I have GAL, my jobs are taking off, I have close friends, my family is very supportive and my kids and I are healthy. But those things don't end up making me forget my troubled M. I feel grateful for my blessings but this sense of failure and rejection is so overpowering.
Thanks for letting me vent here.
BTW, on Sat night, I went out and told H so, keeping it very mysterious. I asked H to come over Sun morning to look after the kids and get them breakfast cause I will be late home on Sat. He said OK and showed up and got them ready and everything. Maybe he was mad at me. I don't know but he was very cold all day. Then again like every Sunday night, he rushed the kids to sleep so he can get out to meet OW. Very stressful the last couple of hours of the night because he is rushing everyone, can't relax and enjoy.
I don't know maybe he thinks I am continuing with my life and he doesn't like it so he put up walls on Sunday. Don't know. What I do know is that he is not contacting me to see where I went or who I was with or doing anything that seem to me that he is interested or curious about it. Instead he looks even colder and more distant. I don't know if he cares or not. I am acting like I don't care if he cares.
He is complaining a lot about money though. It's expensive to keep a family and another apartment for himself (if he hasn't moved in with her but maybe he has) and his own social life and also OW's various meals and expenses. I am not going to needle him about it but reality of finances is getting him anxious.
I don't want to be so upset on the weekends anymore. I want to live peacefully. I think it's almost time to move back home. Not give up on M but to remove myself from this constant stress of being reminded that I was rejected, that I wasn't good enough, that he has someone else now and doesn't want me. It's getting me down and not healthy. If I remove myself at least I don't have to deal with him every weekend. Don't have to listen to his lies. Don't have to see if he is on time, cancelling, pis*ed off or whatever.
My patience if running thin. I am not so certain that he will come home. I am missing my H and ready to work on my M. But he is not even entertaining the idea. So what do I do?
But I definitely feel a huge wall between us and no matter how hard I try to act 'as if' and sound cheerful and just be happy, I feel that the wall is so solid, there is no give at all on his part. It's not that he is rude or anything but extremely distant and deliberately so.
My H is like that too. Often acting distant or angry. I'm thinking they act this way, basically pushing us away. Has to be hard to stay with OW and not our lovable, faithful selves. So they act distant and angry. And sometimes I've found out that it had nothing to do with me: his job was being stressful or the kids. Nothing to do with us sometimes. I was kind of surprised last night; H and I had a normalish conversation; he wasn't pushing me away like always. Probably was too tired b/c he had the kids the past 5 days...
The thing is if someone doesn't want to try, there is no convincing them. Even if you DB your but* off.
I agree with this, which is why you have to learn to DB for yourself and your kids. You know the OW isn't perfect and in some way is deeply flawed or wouldn't be with a married man.
What do you do when your spouse thinks so negatively about you? I felt rejected all over again. I feel like a failure around him. I feel like rubbish that he has thrown away.
I have that too. He's said so much stuff; but seriously it's about them not us. I've read in many places here a lot of this stuff is projection: our WAS feel badly about themselves and project this onto us. I think that's why sometimes it's smart to NC or go dark so you don't go crazy with this kind of stuff or thinking about it too much.
BTW, on Sat night, I went out and told H so, keeping it very mysterious. I asked H to come over Sun morning to look after the kids and get them breakfast cause I will be late home on Sat. He said OK and showed up and got them ready and everything. Maybe he was mad at me. I don't know but he was very cold all day. Then again like every Sunday night, he rushed the kids to sleep so he can get out to meet OW. Very stressful the last couple of hours of the night because he is rushing everyone, can't relax and enjoy.
Good job on the GALing and keeping busy, but you need to not focus on him or his reactions to your GALing. You are getting a great life, and don't think about his reactions to that.
He is complaining a lot about money though. It's expensive to keep a family and another apartment for himself (if he hasn't moved in with her but maybe he has) and his own social life and also OW's various meals and expenses. I am not going to needle him about it but reality of finances is getting him anxious.
I think you've got a good attitude about this, and I think that's a good thing. Consequences are good.
I don't want to be so upset on the weekends anymore. I want to live peacefully. I think it's almost time to move back home.
I know you've been thinking about that. I do think you should make good choices for you. I don't think you should do it if it's to runaway or it's all about him which is how you are sounding today. I know it's hard if not impossible, but you have to decide if moving is right for you and your family, and not just to escape your sitch.
My patience if running thin. I am not so certain that he will come home. I am missing my H and ready to work on my M. But he is not even entertaining the idea. So what do I do?
I think you need to work on your patience. Keep GALing and keeping busy and don't worry about his reactions, distance or whatever. I have always felt positive about your situation. I think at some point your H will realize what a treasure you are and want to work on your M. And if he doesn't ever, then you will find someone that will truly appreciate you. (((((PM)))))) Karen
PM,
Your last post really struck a chord with me. I know I've been DBing for a lot less time than you and have a long way to go but the way you described your sitch sounds exactly how I feel a lot of the time. I found out last night that my biggest cheerleader for reconcilliation (my W's grandmother) has been saying to other people that she feels sorry for me because I'm still hoping my W will come back but in her opinion that's very unlikely. That brings my support for saving my M at home to a big fat zero. Plenty people humour me I'm sure but nobody seems to believe I can actually do anything about it. It's soul destroying and it's really starting to have an effect on the way I look at my sitch. I know its early days but right now it feels completely hopeless.
Back to you though, you've been doing so well recently but I understand that the constant strain of DBing is bound to take its toll eventually. Yes everyone has their bad days. I think that the key is to try and make these few and far between.
I can see how moving your family away can seem so attractive right now. Believe me, if I thought there was any way I could move away but keep regular visitation with Wee Man I'd probably be doing it tomorrow. I know in myself that it would be running away though. Yes it would help me learn to get on with my life without my W but isn't that something I should face head-on and deal with for the best possible future for Wee Man whether we're together or not. I still love my W for who she was. I wouldn't take her back now if she remained who she is. It just wouldn't work. I'm in love with a memory, not a person. The love I have for Wee Man is real though and I could never leave because of him. I know your H doesn't seem to care who he's hurting here but how would it affect him if you moved his kids away? If my W did that to me I don't know how I would cope. It would destroy me.
Sorry if that sounded harsh because I'm 100% on your side but they are his kids too. Have you even mentioned the move as a possibility to him? Like Karen said, make sure it's for the right reasons and not just to run away.
I really hope today finds some more joy for you than you had yesterday. Take care.
Kev
((((PM)))),
Well, I know how you feel, we've all been there.
I know you realize that this low feeling will pass soon enough. I'm glad to hear that you're still thinking about all the options for you and your children. I agree to a point w/what Karen and Kev said, but there is a big difference between "running away" and simply "moving on" -- not to be read as "giving up" if you're not there yet. You've always shown good judgement when making these decisions, and I have no reason to see why this would be different.
I do agree w/Karen about your GAL'ing - do it for you - not to get any sort of reaction from your H.
Have you ever discussed the possibility of a move w/your H? From the way you describe his interactions w/the kids, I don't know how much emphasis he puts on spending time with them.
Extra thoughts and prayers for you today. This too shall pass...
Stacy
PM, first HUGS to you. I feel your frustration and pain.
DB is good but the problem is that after awhile as you and others have described it wears us out and our love begins to die along with all the DBing we have been doing.
That is why I am a believer in Plan A/Plan B from Surviving an Affair, which is a bit more agressive than Dbing.
Plan A is just like DBing but the difference is that you only do it for a certain amount of time (probably up to 6 months) and then you go "dark". I have posted a few things on YOYO sitch and I am going to put a Plan B letter up.
It is like the Last resort technique but with Plan B letter if WS wants to find his way home.
I will be praying for you. We are all in this together.
Thanks to (((Hope, Davidswife, CIW and Karen))). I really needed those words from you all. It was a really tough week last week. I don't know why, nothing drastic happened. It just was that way.
I am in a MUCH MUCH better place mentally now. Thank you to you all for pulling me out of my misery when I needed it the most. I would still be there if it weren't for your support, caring hearts and friendship.
Davidswife is right, this too shall pass. It's key to remember that. Everything passes.
A good friend of mine called me this week and Her friend's H just passed away. My friend suspects that it was suicide but cannot confirm yet.
It got me thinking. My friend's friend would give up almost anything to have a fight with her H. I am very very blessed and fortunate to be healthy, able and my H is here to fight with me. Death is the most final. Everything else is negotiable. I am telling myself to take a look at the bigger picture and not get too bogged down on the little details and forget my promise to myself. That is to fight for my M, have patience, compassion and love the man I married. It doesn't mean be a doormat but just means that it's not over til it's over. And even then it's not over till one of us is dead.
It's still early days. I am telling myself I should not give up just yet when the heat of the A is still burning. Wait a while, till the flames dies, then we'll see where we are.
Just a thought. Hoping for the best.
BTW, had to call H early this week about some admin stuff. He sounded cheerful and soft, much like the old H. Not the 'this is a business call' voice on the phone. It was nice. But not banking on anything. Just nice.
Hi PM, glad you are feeling a bit better. I went into a slump starting at Valentine's Day and it took me weeks to overcome that depression.
At least your H has not served you D papers. That is something positive. Mine seems to have agenda set. Move out 10/1, waited till after the holidays, served me in January, and now trying to proceed with D. I worry he will marry OW. But hopefully this is where the stumbling blocks will happen.
They all go into that adult disneyland state of OW who adores them, spending money, going out,-- it is like when your kid goes off to college the first semester and they go nuts, BUT the reality starts to catch up with them.
It is not glamourous or fun taking out someone else's garbage or cutting someone's lawn, not seeing your kids, losing everything you built for years over some bimbo. Its a shame.
Good news!
I think there is trouble in paradise :/. H shows up with red eyes as if from crying. A spat? It is the weekend of one-year anniversary of second bomb when I found out about OW. Maybe OW is demanding public recognition or something else. Who knows? Not wasting any more brain cells on what she is up to. Just glad that he is not all happy and in denial. This afternoon he takes a nap. I am thinking they were fighting and stuff and he has lost sleep. Gooood. This is the man who said to me that OW wanted nothing from him. Yeah right! No one wants NOTHING. Everyone wants something whether it's attention, money, love, companionship or whatever. Hello! Denial! I think he is finally coming to the reckoning of what has happened and who he has gotten himself with. Our C tried to tell him that all women are emotional creatures. H wouldn't believe him. Ummm. Now he is learning. He just traded one set of problems for a bigger set of problems. Should have just worked on our M, then wouldn't have another woman and extra finances to deal with. Not to mention worrying about the kids and their wellbeing. Ha! I can vent here but would never rub his face into that, it's not DB.
Hopefully this will push him to then next Stage of MLC - Depression. If not, I will be seeing more of Replay behaviors. No guarantees he will come back, of course. But if there is trouble in paradise at least there is a small chance that he will come out of A with OW. Which is a cause to celebrate.
Yesterday, we were having so much fun with kids, I could tell that H was reluctant to go. Boy did I DB my as* off, all smiles and fun and light-heartedness. Riding on D's scooter, having a blast. H was all quiet and solemn, I didn't pay any attention to him at all. Gradually he came around and got less tense. Was I blind or did I not notice that H has turned into a grumpy old man these last few years? Anyway, H was reluctant to go, I gave a quick farewell and off I went. Let him wonder what fun he is missing.
Continuing from last post. It's our one year anniversary of second bomb, which is when I found out about OW.
Am doing quite well considering, my B'day and Valentine's Day was much worse.
Still curious as to what happened to H. The more I think about it, the more I think it was a fight in the morning cause his eyes were still swollen. I feel mean but I am glad they are fighting and not happy. Secretly, this is what I have been hoping for. They may still make up after their fight but I hope the cracks are showing and for my H, who is passive-agressive who avoids confrontations, it must be very difficult for him. He might have thought that I had a bad temper and I cried and he didn't like it. Well, we will see how OW show her true colors. I am small potatoes compared to other women out there. Especially ones who go after married men. They are not sweet gals.
I feel mean but I am glad they are fighting and not happy. Secretly, this is what I have been hoping for. They may still make up after their fight but I hope the cracks are showing and for my H, who is passive-agressive who avoids confrontations, it must be very difficult for him.
I feel the same way too. My H was really happy when he moved out and that hurt, but he hasn't seemed happy since then really. He sends me cranky emails all the time!!! I mean like dozens every week. How happy could he be with OW if he's doing that?
I think just like us they do have to go through depression and pain about this, but maybe they've already gone through some before the bomb, and OWs in my opinion are bandaids; a distraction for the person's real problems. I don't think these women are women that tend to have lasting Rs; the ow in my case is D her 3rd husband. I think it's an addiction also, and those wear off. But then the thing is will you want him back afterwards???? Honestly, sometimes I'm amazed at how much we do cartwheels and handstands and the like for these WAS that are at the very least troubled people. Karen
sometimes I'm amazed at how much we do cartwheels and handstands and the like for these WAS that are at the very least troubled people. Karen
I know and that bothers me. Right now if H rang and said
'lets try again ' - I would.
What is with that. Crazy. My H is angry at me on and off, he blows hot and cold. I am not certain it is OW and himself with problems as much as what it is she is saying about me. You know the old 'poor you, watch that wife she will be turning kids off you etc etc '
I cant fight that but I can di nothing that inflames the situation. eventually he will see i am not like that .... maybe .....
I do enjoy OW and H fighting myself. I just know they must be b/c OW in my case comes off as very argumentative and ghetto to me and has no control of her emotions. H sure doesn't seem that happy now. One day he called her "that one" and I loved it secretly. Funny thing is that my H never really speaks so well of OW. He knows that she is not the most polished person but he goes along and makes excuses for her behavior and says "she's a nice person though." I guess I'll have to see how long that "nice person" belief last before the fog wears off.
I look forward to the day pollyanna. I can't wait in fact, just hope that it's not too long. I do try not to say much at all when H makes his little comments about OW because in the back of my mind I question what were you saying about me to OW, you know what I mean. But nonetheless, I clearly see OW for what she is, and not b/c she's with my H, but sb/c he's very manipulative and liar and I have caught her in so many. H knows it too but he makes excuses for her. Good luck to them with their little R that is based on nothing of integrity or substance. I know it sounds bad but I can't wait for it all to blow up in their faces.
And without a doubt i will...
Well ladies, if I may interrupt for but a moment. PM, it sounds as though you're doing really great. If I were you I'd feel no shame at all in the fact that your H and his trout are arguing. The guilty pleasures are those that feel the most sweet. I have no idea if my W has moved on to another R yet although I hope not. I do want her to struggle just a bit though to see that life isn't all fluffy bunnies and rainbows. I don't think that makes me a malicious person at all. I just want her to regret her decision to leave. She needs to do that before she even gets close to the idea of moving home. Just as your H has to realise that the OW isn't perfect. That's why the fighting is a good thing and you should feel no shame at all in enjoying it.
It sounded as though you were doing a great job of blanking him out when he came past yesterday. I smile at the thought of you speeding around on your D's scooter! It'll be good for your H to keep seeing that side of you too. I think something we're all guilty of from time to time is acting awkward around our spouses in the fear of doing something wrong. For them to see us as attractive people we have to show them our fun sides. Kids are a great way to show that without having to directly interact with our wayward spouses. I know for my part I struggle to think of fun things to say when I'm talking with my W. When I'm talking to anyone else it comes easily and I can normally get someone laughing but not her. It's easy to run around and play with Wee Man in front of her though. That's the fun image I want her to see.
So, keep it up PM. Balnk your H but keep it free of rudeness and project the fun side of yourself at every opportunity. Keep smiling!! Now more than ever.
Kev
Hi Karen, Pollyanna, Vicky, Kev. Thanks for responding. Girls, I can't believe that your H's mention OW in front of you. I guess I have been lucky. My H pretends that she doesn't exist and is respectful enough not to say anything about her in my presence. Small mercies, I guess. Kev, yes, I have been feeling better the last couple of weeks, my career is going well and my mood is improved greatly so I have been doing light-hearted things even when my H is around.
My H did something very different the last time I saw him. A couple of weeks ago, I had called him up after a visit and told him that if he wanted to change schedule, he must do it face to face with the kids and that this home is not his hotel. Well, two days ago, he took out the calendar and very gently told the kids that he won't be around for the next two weekends. I almost fell off my chair. 1) that he is going away on business (which I think is only half true - I think he is going away on pleasure with OW as well) 2) that he actually listened to what I had to say about needing to tell the kids himself and I am not his messenger.
Maybe he is finally being a little less selfish and thinking about what other people are saying to him and considering other people's feelings. Which is a GREAT sign.
I am still feeling good about the H swollen eyes over the weekend. I hope their spat is ongoing. He says he is going to come and see the kids once during this week, which he never does because he is going to be away. OK, I said.
I sense a change in H. A sense that things are starting to shift. I can't put my finger on it but I feel it, call it a woman's intuition. I don't know what it means right now but I feel like it's a positive shift in terms of my goals. I am trying not to get my hopes up but my radar is up.
I feel that he is paying attention to what I am doing eventhough he never asks about me or my life. I feel that he is just a little bit more respectful. I feel that maybe he is experiencing trouble in paradise and may almost be ready to look up and around to see what he has missed out on in the last year.
Will keep you all posted. This may all be in my head and have no basis, we will just have to see...
Hi - i also feel a shift in H. Funny you should say it, but it isn't anything i can put my finger on either.
I saw H in weekend and he was seeking validation for a decision he made. He wanted my opinion or approval. I dont know about OW being in picture as H has gone quiet recently on that as well. So either it has gone under ground as kids were not happy or H is seeing the light.
Either way I am not over thinking it as that makes me more tangled up in his life.
Try not to read anything ibto what they are doing. It is easier on you and nothing you can do to change a single thing anyways.
thanks for the advice pollyanna. I know it's easy to get hopes up. I will try to concentrate on my life.
I take my previous post back. H is fuming at me for no reason. That anger just seems to bubble away under the surface.
The shift I feel may be just distance ha ha. silly me or should I say stupid him!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Polllyanna, Sorry about your H. You know, MLC makes people's moods swing up and down. There are good times, there are very low times as well, sorry you have to take the brunt of it. I think it may be because he thinks you would take it. Does it do it to other people as well, or just to you? That should be a good clue if he can control himself in front of others.
My H is going away for the next two weekends so he wants to come by tomorrow night to visit with the kids a little bit. I told him it was fine. But I don't really want to see him. May make myself distant.
I am feeling good otherwise. Really learning how to control my anger.
I have had to get a dress altered because it didn't fit well. Well, first they didn't tell me how much they would charge me and said they would call me back. Never did. They said it was done and then told me the price, which was pretty high. I was firm that I was not happy about this arrangment since they said they would call and I could make a decision based on the price. But I said I would pay for it this time but pls call me next time. Well, took it home and found they only did half the job. Took it back, told them so, firmly. Picked it up again today and found it still not done!!! Starting fuming, got quite serious, could feel very angry and that my emotions were getting out of control. Started to exaggerate and think about all the bad stuff in my life.
Red flag!
Told myself, reframe, reframe, reframe my train of thought!
So I took my DB coach's advice:
1) Acknowledge my first feeling - which was I felt really annoyed that they did not get it right and it has taken three trips and it's still not done
2) Very disappointed that I can't trust them to do a good job, have been using them for years
3) Not let my feelings develop into anger.
I said the words out loud, "I am annoyed at them but I won't let this turn into anger" 3 times. Then I said out loud to myself, I will NOT let this turn me into a crazy, angry woman. Then I had a visual of myself being angry and out of control and that imaged shocked me back into my calm self.
I don't want to be that woman - ever again.
Lo and behold, I felt a great calm. I have learned how to handle my feelings. I feel very proud of myself. I am in control of my emotions, not the other way around. I feel so grown-up. You can teach an old dog new tricks!
Thank you DB Coach Joann.
PM -
I'm sorry I've left you behind for awhile... I've been off the DB boards some... I seem to email a few of the guys from the board individually than get on here..
OK I read up on your thread... I did want to make a comment to what you wrote about a few weeks back. Several other posters said the same thing to you as well. You know we only all have your best interest in mind. I think it is ok to leave the door cracked when and if your H comes back... BUT like many said live your life as if he isn't coming back... so if it would take 6 months or more to get yourself ready to move back to your family then if you talk to your H and start wheels in motion he might see you are serious and it might force the issue for him to make some decisions (if he is going too)
I'm sure whatever plans you put in place can be stopped or put on hold in regards to getting ready for the move if H comes back but it sounds like that is what would ultimately make you and probably your kids happy if this indeed does end up down the dreaded D path.
Just from my own experience, my H is in a contant push and pull match (not knowningly) and when I seem less "friendly" and more distant but pleasant he comes around crying and telling me how sorry he is or how painful this is for him. I think it shows a since of respect to your H if he sees you are going to move on with or without him... To date he hasn't had to make any decisions one way or the other b/c he probably knows you will be there for him.
I want to give you kudo's to all the weight you have lost, the fact that you have a part time job, and you have done so much work that you will be a better person and a better Mom in the end. You have made great 180's and I know I have seen them.
Also, I loved that you stood up to your H when it came to the kids and that he couldn't just decide to change his plans and not see the kids or come later in the day.. proud of you.. Men like a strong women and most men need a strong women so that really showed him that you do have respect and demand it of him .... you stated your boundries.... great job.
I only want what is best for you and maybe setting a time frame for you is a good idea and when that time comes you know you will be making plans to move in another direction.... Such a hard decision .. love to you - hope you know this only comes from a warm place in my heart..
I will try to update my thread in next day or two..
Hugs>>>>
Hi PM, just checking in. Been on vacation in CA this past week. It has been like therapy. Looks like you are doing well.
Will check in with everyone when I return. Having a great time and this has been the best for D15. Saw traces of the D we had this past summer before all of this happened.
take care
Well, I agree about not letting anger get the best of you; I think it hurts us more than it hurts anyone else. But on the other hand, I think it would be good for you to never go back there again, and tell the manager or owner or whatever why, not in an angry way, but just the facts. That was horrible, and I think most of us would get mad at that!!! Karen
BUT like many said live your life as if he isn't coming back... so if it would take 6 months or more to get yourself ready to move back to your family then if you talk to your H and start wheels in motion he might see you are serious and it might force the issue for him to make some decisions (if he is going too)
That does sound good! And it prob. would take 6 months or so, so you could start baby steps in that direction, if you think that's what you want. Karen
PM,
You asked me to check in on your sitch. So I have read this thread, but only this one. Therefore I don't know what your own individual issues from the past were; except I'm inferring that you had some anger/resentment issues. And you had gained weight and whatever else goes with that, (Complacency? etc.) or low self esteem blah blah blah, I assume, but you have lost weight and done some other 180s...correct so far?
And your h has been having the A for what now? I mean, 2 years? So you've been at this awhile. The typical questions the LBSer faces include some of the following...
You have been in limbo and purgatory - hell, etc. and wondered if your h was in MLC with an alien temporarily in charge of him, or is this the culmination of an evolving process wherein a selfish man's true self has finally emerged...
We all wonder this. We all wonder about A's. If there is an OP, we wonder if it's an "addiction," as opposed to the possibility that the OP is "the real thing" and we were merely "practice spouses"-- and down the road, the x's will be the improved versions of themselves that we were always hoping for. So we got the crappy stuff and the OP gets the gold...those fears are common. And not all ill founded. But completely out of our control.
These thoughts consume an enormous amount of our emotional/spiritual energy. They're not productive except as it relates to your response. Would you act differently if you were sure your h was in a MLC, versus just showing that he has become a total narcissist? What would be different in your life?
You'd still need to GAL, have a PMA for you. You admit that anger has been an issue for you, and you are right to "lose the anger" especially in front of your h. You have to counter his negative images of you, which he uses as his justification/rationalizations for leaving and having the A, with positive images. Somehow you want to show that his "data" about you and the revisions of the M he is doing, are invalid.
But you can't do this at the expense of your self respect and life. Plus, in your sitch, 2 years of DBing with a PMA and no pressure and no confronting and giving all the affirmations you've given -- has accomplished what? Less anger from him? Usually? Okay. Fine...but Is that enough? Of course not. 2 years without a significant move towards a reconciliation means that your present approach is not getting you anywhere near where you want and just b/c it keeps the peace does not mean it's working as far as restoring the M.
None of us know IF your h will come back, let alone what would help trigger that. We can offer you advice on what is likely to PUSH HIM AWAY...but that's pretty much all. YOU have to monitor the results of your efforts and it sounds as if you have been.
I can tell you what my DB coach said that seemed to help in my sitch. And the reason I have not posted under "Div BUSTED" yet is b/c of caution, and fears of jinxing things, and maybe just the idea that I never want to think it's all done and fixed. You know, as if I can take anything for granted, b/c I won't do that again.
BTW, more M's are saved here than some realize b/c I know for a fact that 2 other M's are working out but the LBSers are like me- and don't feel like making an official declaration...make sense?
I also have two relatives who divorced and remarried their x's some years later. IT DOES HAPPEN and I'm a "witness". My cousin took 8 years to reconcile, and they have now been remarried 12 years, and are happier than they were the first time around. My aunt and uncle divorced and remarried 5 years later. Some years later when he got terminal cancer, my aunt and cousins were at his bedside when he passed on. It was bittersweet. She also said the 2nd M was better than the first.
They lost each other in order to find each other. I don't know about OPs but there
was one or more somewhere in there.
The M you had with your h IS over for all intents and purposes. When you're honest you know you only want to be M to the man you think/hope he can be or is down deep still there...
For my sitch, I think a recommitment ceremony will be a good thing b/c it affirms that we will not slide back into old destructive habits that got us here, and the symbolism is powerful and if it's all real, it could be great for the kids to see the legacy we are giving them about M, it is one of unconditional love, forgiveness, renewal, etc. Though I played a big role in our M's issues, and would do things differently if I could - Which I DID communicate to h pretty early on, still...
He is the one who left, ((and For a JOB!!...SIDENOTE: that choice still blows my mind, but I "get" that I will probably never "get" how he made those choices and I accept that. I do not have to understand all the things he has done; and it's a waste of time trying to. All that matters is that we agree on our future together and how we'll get there...)) and now he is facing fall out with the older kids who see him as selfish, or the youngest, who sees him as an intruder/stranger coming in and wrecking the routine we build while he is away, like your sitch on weekends. He is trying to get back into our family fully and I'll help him as I can. But it is his responsibility; not mine. However he was once a very interactive dad, so it does come naturally to him. I have high hopes there.
I have learned to turn their R's over to God, and not get in their way, helping/supporting when I can, but not taking charge of it and continually gently reminding h that he is the parent...and the one who left and he is not the "victim"...and I tell d19 that her father loves her and would kill or die for her in a heartbeat and I mean that. I think they'll rebuild something good, maybe with monthly dinners, one on one where they just talk. He wants to take an acting class as I have done for years (MFA coming soon) b/c the older children are in the film industry and he wants to be included in our discussions and know what we're talking about. That was his idea. So good things happen.
Now...Going back in time to what I did that did work and did not and may have...
At one point I felt ready to end the M. That was a turning point for ME and lead, I believe, to a turning point in him. At the time I gave us a 10% chance of reconciling b/c he was crossing so many boundaries of mine, and acting so UNdesireable to me. I did not want that man and would not want that man again, if h had stayed that way. I could not seem to reach him with my words no matter how articulate or brilliant. He still has his moments and they are still hurtful. But back to those times...okay so I decided that I wanted out and it was all a matter of the kids. First had to let d19 then finish hs. So I knew that part of the deal justified my staying around right then and it was a "deadline" in my head. I knew once d19 finished HS I would make some choices. In the meantime, our anniversary was coming up and I did not want to spend another one alone. I wanted to go to Italy for our 25th, with or without h. He actually did try to come at the last minute...which would mean delaying our departure or returning early or whatever--story of our m was HIS schedule & working around it. No thanks. I delayed our departure for 2 days while he visited and had a nice event with h and the kids and when he was returning to Alaska, where HE and he alone wanted to live to be with his heroes and make a gazillion dollars...blah blah blah to finally feel good about himself?? assure himself that he'd never have to fear poverty again with his 9475638th credential??...but not quite yet...must make more money OR get more prestige...or work extra hours...yada yada ya da ya DA!!!
BUT I took the kids to Italy and had the best trip of our lives. Without h. No reminders of him. For whole hours and then days I did not think of him much. How welcome! No stress. PROOF that we could be happy without h and still be a "family". And some Italian men flirted with me and you know, I really appreciated it. (No vulgarity or jerks, all guys like we see on television, classy, handsome charming...probably all married -- but my ego NEEDED their attention, my kids were happy for me - and I felt GREAT!!!)
The trip was a turning point. H was noticeably bothered. Here we were, His family- and having a blast without him and it was hard to reach us with the phones and time differences....too bad...same thing i had gone through with him gone. H was....working....living alone (as far as I know!!) in a far away cold place. So when he visited, we had the same issues others do, can we ML and not feel used later on? Should we? Should I say "hell no!"? Very personal choices. I chose to contrast the cold of his world up there, with the warmth and love and laughter of our home as much as I could.
I had to extricate myself from those who gave advice based ONLY on their experiences...which they tend to project onto yours. They'll see cheaters everywhere if that happened to them, or they'll choose to believe the unbelievable b/c they can't handle the truth in their sitch. Some LBSers will force DETAILS out of the WAS of the A, that I know I would not need to know...
I applied for jobs in italy, and elsewhere, that showed h he was no longer my main concern in my decisions. This was incredibly freeing to me. He had chosen to leave and I accepted that with sad resignation...but balanced with my GENUINE desire to see the upside of not being M to him. You already know some of the upsides to not having him around in your face all the time; you really do. Not just leaving the toilet seat up either. You also know the upside of living near your family again.
Your fear is that if you leave, you'll be making it too hard for your h to come back, IF he wanted to. Well, balance it out. On one hand, "Keep the road home, paved and smooth."" That does NOT require you staying there to your detriment, and it seems to me it is costing your kids to stay there, costing them a lot in lost time with SOME male figure's attention that your family would provide, along with other affirmation-giving adult relatives....that would go a long way to compensate for your h not being around more. Besides, he isn't around much now and plus, he may have to make more formal arrangements to see them. A lot of men end up seeing their kids MORE when they are divorced...ironically. They have to make plans and acitivities...
My guess in your sitch, -- I suspect that IF there is a chance of your h returning, it would be by seeing you planning to leave. Nothing punitive on your end. Just you becoming the woman only a fool would leave."
So DB advice, same for MLC or selfish man who might change...(but MLC can be an excuse/label we WANT to believe in b/c the alternative sucks more) which is
Applaud loudly for the 1% of what they do/say that is positive . (This was "Mother Teresa" stuff for me, b/c I didn't want to praise h for "being with his kids" b/c he IS their father for God's sake...BUT if his ego/heart/brain was so bruised that the only way to encourage a sense of hope in him, and if it helped convince h that he had not wrecked so much that it was pointless to try..so be it. I'd clap clap clap...-NO this is not something that continues after a certain point. But expressing gratitude for more than I did before IS appropriate and I'm a better woman for that.
LOSE THE ANGER--at least in front of h, and preferably for good. For YOU. Otherwise it will consume you. (See my signature below about forgiving....we are talking about YOUR hell, and the only way out of it is to forgive and let go and this is not the type of thing you need to tell h if you don't want to b/c it is not about him. It's ALL about you and doing what's best for you and your kids. They want/need a happy functioning mother so thtey feel safe that ONE parent will put their happiness first. Hand the pain/anger/ & marital problems over to God and let Him take them off your hands...and don't go taking the problems back from Him... That really helped me. Marianne Williamson has some books with exercises on forgiveness and healing that helped me, although for some people she is too new agey. I'm Christian and found no problem with her approach, but hey, I live in California...
I'd cry in the showers sometimes, so the kids could not hear, and do my "turning it over" exercises before I expected h to call. IT helped me stay calm when talking to h and I'd count those "Scene free" talks as baby steps. That helps to
COUNTER THE NEGATIVE IMAGES WITH POSITIVES.... and finally I was asked by DB coach to try and "Listen like a lover" when H would discuss problems with work, or people he knew, or other things UNrelated to R...I also did not bring up R talk at all. Ever, for months. But he saw me moving on....and it was real.
As for him giving up b/c you make it "so hard" by moving...3 thoughts and then I'm done here. Okay first #1) I cannot imagine you taking him back after all this time wihtout some sort of commitment revealed on HIS end. So if he can't manage to make an effort with you and your children b/c you are a few hours away, then you have your answer there. I mean, don't bother taking him back if he can't even try to overcome an "obstacle" like driving far to see you and his children, versus the obstacles he created each Step of the way. Making it too easy to reconcile would doom it, would be so unwise and I say that NOT to punish but to ensure that you are wisely choosing to reconcile, if you were to go down that road.
Second, leaving is a good idea b/c it helps you. That's a fair reason! You deserve t be a reason and when you show your own self respect and drive and INTERESTING life, you are more attractive. Has your h noticed any physical changes in you or said anything about your hair or weight or clothing? Any comments?
Third, he will finally realize he cannot go on like this without risking the loss of your R with him. Sure you guys can talk on the phone but what if another man touches you? LET HIM WONDER....it's not a game. It's your marriage. He will know he is risking something with this behavior b/c it has gone on so long without any consequences....that it has not gotten you where you wanted to go, has it?
Gosh this is long. But hey, you asked, and I aim to please. "Waiting it out/being patient" can often be another way of saying Do nothing and is only easier in the short run. And less frightening. But in the long run it is not getting you anywhere. No matter what, this is simply not all about ow....sorry, but the good news is that to the extent you did play a role in this, YOU can change that. So do that. Now you have your hands full but you have a PLAN...and recall my relatives who divorced and remarried?
They got lives after the divorces and that is probably why they got along so much better the 2nd time around. They had learned and improved.
Hope this helps more than confuses...You are articulate and smart and will get through this better than you realize.
((( j )))
PS
Something I posted recently that others asked me to post again, in the event of a reconciliation OR forgiveness work, consider the following little piece:
SEEING OUR SPOUSES THROUGH "ANOTHER'S" EYES
by J-
There comes a time in every marriage when each spouse sees the other in total stark reality, without the passion of the new. They see their partner totally naked, with all their flaws, weaknesses, qualities, strengths, quirks, warts and all, and in that time, they make a choice.
They may reject their spouse as simply too flawed, no faults of weight allowed, only minor ones. Those spouses choose to leave.
Others choose to stay, but only to make the other one cave in to their will, to nag, cajole, critisize, and "be proven RIGHT"... until one of them finally dies.
And some choose to stay, but to sigh deeply for their whole lives, rolling their eyes in the long suffering manner of the martyrs they see themselves as.
And then, there are others. There are those who see the realities of their spouse - along with their own many faults - in stark light too.
Somehow they see it all and yet, still, they choose to love. They choose to focus on the good, and to compliment it, and admire it, and to strongly favor it. As for the bad, and "not so good", they learn to compensate, overlook, accept, forgive, or work around that....for they try their hardest to achieve the real goal of a loving marriage; to see their spouses as God sees them. Through His eyes.
The End
Thanks 25yrsMLC, Karen, Hope and TxMom.
You all had good points and as it has taken me the last couple of days to process what you all said. In my mind, I keep flipflopping as to whether to stay here or to start the wheels in motion for the move. And since I have not had an R talk with H for months, I really don't know what is on his mind or if I am on his mind at all...
But I just want to make it clear, there is no bluff here. If I move, I move away for good. It is several hours flight away so H won't be driving over to visit us on weekends or anything. I am sensing that H would choose to visit his kids maybe three or four times a year max. That would be very sad for my children. It's a huge decision and one that I don't lightly that's why I didn't pull the trigger last year when I found out about A.
I have been DB'ing since August last year. Has things been better? Well, yes, slightly. But since A is hot and heavy, I don't think we as a couple can get anywhere. I think if we were to have any sort of a chance, the A would have to be over. That is why I am not expecting accountability or fidelity. My expectations as low on purpose. What I am doing is GAL'ing for REAL. This has given me a new sense of self, a new respect for my capabilities and a relief from the pain. I really have become the woman that only a fool would leave. I have look deep into my fears and confronted them and re-evaluated what it means to be married and be committed and adjusted my attitude towards M.
My anger is acknowledged but not acted on. I concentrate on giving him kudos on being a good dad now rather than the opposite which I used to do before. I have always listened to H, hours and hours everynight. And I continue to listen now but he has chosen not to talk to me anymore and not to share his life, his feelings, he has chosen to shut me out.
But is this change enough? No. He is going thru his own issues. He is seeing me change and have not made any comments to me. (Because he is not sharing.) I don't know if he has any regrets, I don't even know if he misses any part of our life together.
What I really want is for my H to come back and work on my M. If I can't have that then my backup plan is to move home closer to my family and be surrounded by family love. For me and my kids. My H would not be able to find a job in my hometown. It's a fact. It might as well be moving to the moon for him. So I am left with the same choice. Do I stay or do I go. No one can predict the future, I just don't want to give up at the wrong time. But the thing is, my MIL, H, my counsellor and a lot of people here almost have me convinced that H would not try in this M. My view of a reconciliation is pessimistic. My only hope is that the man who I fell in love with, the one who has integrity and love for me is still in there somewhere. I don't know how the man I knew could live with himself. I really don't.
25yrsMLC, you see the difference between a man with MLC and one who is always this way is that the one who was always selfish is just coming out of his shell and not afraid to show his selfishness. The man in MLC, I believe, is confused and causing hurt and not REALLY understanding consequences. So the difference is that I have compassion for the MLC'er and not the selfish guy. I believe that MLC guy is sick and can possibly be healed if someone (not me) can help him find the way. The selfish guy cannot be cured, it's chronic.
I have faced the fact that my H has chosen his job over me and kids. What I wonder now is with our C's help, can he really understand his own values and adjust his lifestyle to reflect his values. He is not a heartless, loveless H. I think his values have been compromised and he is looking at all the options (in a very destructive way). If he can find his way back to the family oriented guy I know that he can be, then all of this pain and wait will be worth it. If not, then I have taken this time out to improve on me and I should be happy with that.
I truly believe that if we choose to make a 'go' of it, we can do a whole lot better because we know ourselves and our partners better now. We can accept each other's fault and find the mature love, acceptance and compassion that can come from a long, deep love. I would love to have this with H. But maybe it's time for me to consider other options as well.
H is away on business. Our C says that H is the type of person who craves excitment. So he is now visiting a new city. He called up kids today on speaker phone and told us all the new and wonderful things he is doing and seeing. I can tell he is really enjoying himself. So I think to myself, we have been together 17 years. How can I keep up this kind level of excitment in the M? I can't. So we are doomed, or more specifically he is doomed to look for new relationships when old ones stagnate. He is cognitive of this trait in himself (the excitment part, not the looking for new love part) but has convinced himself that it is different with OW. I wonder if a miracle happens and he decides to try on our M, how I can keep the excitment going. Maybe this really won't work after all because it would be so much work and I would constantly be wondering, am I good enough, am I making it exciting enough for him, is he happy with me, will he look for someone else?
I wonder if a miracle happens and he decides to try on our M, how I can keep the excitment going. Maybe this really won't work after all because it would be so much work and I would constantly be wondering, am I good enough, am I making it exciting enough for him, is he happy with me, will he look for someone else?
Ahhhhh, there's the rub.
As far as OW goes, she's insignificant, if it wasn't her, it would just be somebody else. They don't love these OW's (or OM's), the whole thing just provides excitement and distraction.
Just MHO.
Stacy
[quote=PositivelyMommy]
As far as OW goes, she's insignificant, if it wasn't her, it would just be somebody else. They don't love these OW's (or OM's), the whole thing just provides excitement and distraction.
Just MHO.
Stacy
I think so too. It seems to me from my sitch and others here, it's almost like the WAS goes for the person with the least likely chance of an LTR. Maybe that's how they fall into it, both in my sitch were married with kids, so maybe H thought she was "safe". Hah!
POS MOM,
everything you say makes great sense for a newcomer who is trying something and checking results, monitoring the outcomes.... BUT you've been here a long time without significant change. I have been here awhile so my time frame of reference is a long one. I get it. But my h showed signs and said things about getting back together along the way and there was no OW.
What I'm trying to say is the whole deal about "checking/monitoring" results after some time. Sorry to be brutal but you did ask for me to check this out. You have DBd some time now. The results are NOT encouraging..."a little improvement" is that you are slightly more civil, correct? I mean there have been NO recent discussions about getting back....so I'm left with wondering how long you will wait, or until what triggering event, until you try something else....
Don't confuse patience with being stuck. I know there's a fine line sometimes and I'm not positive I'm right OF COURSE....but I sense a lot of the same "waiting for a miracle" in you. And with the deaths in my family and close circle the past year, YEAH I am in a hurry to LIVE MY BEST LIFE....with or without a man.
Besides, you glossed over the real chance that 1) nothing will bring him back BUT 2) if anything will, it is likely to be something DIFFERENT....like something scary...like moving on and away. And if he won't drive a few times...then this is NOT MLC....my h flew in from Alaska for weekends...
God knows he was wacky and selfish too, but when the light goes on in them, they miss you and they DO some things differently and you start to wonder if maybe this is it...cuz they make real efforts.
So sorry. I don't see those signs in your h yet and I think it's time to pull out the nukes...not the punitive ones...the ones that show you are moving ON...
A woman only a fool would leave, is a woman who does what makes her and her children happy and secure, in the face of long term neglect and worse....
It is, of course just mho.
((( hugs cuz I KNOW this sucks!!! I get it!!!) but it's not hopeless yet!! But it might become that way if you keep doing the same thing...and expecting different results.
((( j )))
(((PM))),
25 has some valid points, although I know that it won't be easy to read.
I continue to pray for you and your children.
Stacy
PM -
Love you and I'm feeling your pain and big decisions to come. 25MLC has great advise... remember nothing is EVER permanent.... you could stop the moving process if H starts breaking down, you could move to a new city together if R happens after the move and start a new life.. Nothing is forever...things change and can change... so don't look at this move as so final...
I agree you've been at this DB thing a year now and I would think you would see some signs or some communication from him one way or the other... if what you were doing was working you would know by now.. let's try something different... I'm dealing with the same thing.. the reality that my M is probably over but in reality we don't know what the future holds so take care of you and the kids.. if you start the process on the move as you said it will take some time so you sit down and let your H let him know that this is a decision you have made, that the door is still cracked, but you need to do this for you and the kids.. write him a letter whatever works best... then start the wheels in motion...
God will take care of you .. pray about your decision ...
there are those who divorce and move on, and become better people...and remarry later. (I have two in my own family).
One wonders if that could ever happen if they had stayed in limbo so long...I doubt it. Not much growth, so not much chance of a lasting recon...
We know it's not easy. But is what you are going through, ad infinitum, easier?
(( j ))
PM, checking in and seeing how you are. You have given me much support in my sitch and I know how you are struggling.
They say you will know when it is time. As long as you have love in your heart it is difficult to turn away. My prayers are with you.
Thank you everyone for all of your input, especially MLC for pointing out all these important points. I have been thinking over what everyone said and trying to make sense of everything. To tell you the truth. I just cannot pull the plug just yet. I just feel that I am not ready to abandon ship just yet and move home. What I will do is when we have our shared counselling session I will ask H to sign some applications for school with me so at least he knows I am considering it for some time in the future. Not to say I will move right away but it is on my mind. Which is where I am at right now emotionally.
I told you all that H went away for one trip. Well, he came home for one night to see the kids before going away for another trip. He brought presents for the kids and we had a pretty normal night ( no, he didn't have dinner with us) but guess what, he bought me a small gift! I could have fell out of my chair. It was one of my favorite things, a bag of really nice coffee. He bought it especially for me. Now I don't know what to think. Why did he buy me coffee? Was he thinking about me on his trip? Is he feeling guilty about something? Does it mean anything? But if he hates me or is indifferent or is trying to get away from me why would he buy me anything? Let alone something thoughtful that I would like????
I am confused.
I mentioned that I felt a change but couldn't prove my finger on it. Now it seems this action is totally out of character for what has been happening in the last year. I wonder if he is opening up his eyes to other options than the path he has chosen??? Ideas anyone?
I think when you're ready you will know when that is. I've read that when others posted it, and it's happened to me this past week. I'm ready to move on and get proactive about the D. I think you should wait until you are more ready. But maybe keep that in mind for 6 months or 12 months down the row so your decisions reflect that?
I think he certainly is confused. I'm sure he doesn't hate or is indifferent to you. I'm sure it can't be easy for your H to turn away from a wonderful person like you!!! I would suggest watch and wait: from everything I've seen here, when they come back it'll be obvious. But, yes, it shows he's thinking of you and you're on his mind in a good way so I think that's good. Karen
((((((((((PM))))))))))
That's a big hug for you to thank you for your ongoing support. You're a wonderfully strong person who deserves happiness. Your strength to keep going in the face of such adversity is astounding. If you're not ready to throw in the towel yet, don't. That's the simple answer. I agree with what Tx says in that maybe it's time to try a whole new approach. Have you talked to a DB coach lately? Maybe they can give you a new direction. I think you've really succeeded in finding yourself and now just have to find a new way to attract your DAM.
The gift is interesting. I would definitely see that as a plus point. Don't make a big deal of it though. I'm going to be interested to see what transpires on my birthday next Thursday. Hopefully my W will remember at the very least! I imagine she'll probably just get me something from Wee Man but you never know. Watch this space.
My last thread locked PM so I've strated another one called, "A new thread, a new outlook...". Feel free to visit.
Keep smiling.
Kev
PM, how are you.
That coffee was a surprise. With waywards we have to look at baby steps. I know in some cases they just have an awakening but most the time it takes awhile to come out of the fog.
Looking at your time line it has been a year. These A start out exciting but then they start to crack. They are no longer on best behavior and their real character starts to show through. The BS starts to look better especially with the changes we make.
Just observe. stay quiet and see what transpires when H comes over. You are in my prayers.
PM,
Get a DB coach asap b/c they're totally worth it. If I could only do one of the many things I did to help my m, it would be that. They were specific and timely and comparatively, not that pricey. I got a pkg of 3 and per hour, it was about the same where I live.
The coffee? Um, sorry, but so what? It was a polite gesture. I mean, was there a note saying "I"m sorry for being such an ass. Now I get it. I LOVE YOU and I'm IN LOVE WITH YOU"? No offense, but big deal. Say "thanks" and mean it, and let it go...better yet, drink it. Enjoy!! That's it. Stop reading into this stuff. Why? Because it confuses you, obviously and slows your progress. So he got all the kids gifts and got you a little something too (and honey, it wasn't a pearl necklace)...
You'll KNOW if and when he's ready b/c he'll SHOW you in obvious ways like um...TELLING YOU!! There won't be mystery. It's up to HIM to do that part of the story, PM, do you see why? Do you see why you'd have to have clarity from him? And so, you don't have to wonder and wonder anymore. Until if and when you get clarity from him that overcomes the OTHER obvious stuff...then you have your answer. You just don't like it. Sorry.
You'll get through this. You really will. Don't know why you are so obvious with the h about the school applications. It's too obviously a ploy/tactic instead of a real change in you. I did apply to schools for teaching jobs, in ITALY and really got truly excited that I could finally, for the first time EVER, work where I wanted to work. I said NOTHING to h about it. It was for ME and my freedom and finally seeing the upside of not having to put His career ahead of everything else.
Yeah, he found out. He didn't say anything about it to me for months but he sure started coming around faster...
I meant it though. See? that's the difference. It was REAL change for me. Not a tactic. heck, it 's the one bad side of him and us restoring the M is that I can't go live there now. Dang! ALMOST makes you wish you could reconcile in 2 years....(kidding, mostly....)
But we ARE taking a trip next month to visit d20 and we're going to Italy then, together!!
So do the things you can and want and must do, FOR YOU. You'll be surprised at what the universe throws your way.
(( j ))
PS now I feel like watching "Under the Tuscan Sun" again...yep, it's a chick flick night for sure!! If YOU have not seen it, for God's sake go get it!
PS
Pos Mom,
what's it gonna take for you to try a real 180? Him divorcing you? By then it may be too late.
And that's assuming you'd still want this marriage, which from the sounds of it, you are starting to view more accurately, with the whole adrenaline/excitement needs he has and how much you'll always worry even if you are "together"...but again, you've supposedly DBd for a long time. I say "Supposedly" b/c real DBing calls for doing what works and NOT what does not work and monitoring results... from what I can see, you are doing the same stuff as before, minus the recriminations of the beginning...
Soooo, what will it take for YOU to do something different? Or are you waiting for him to do something for you to "react" to again? And isn't that part of the problem anyhow? If and when he wants the marriage to work, He'll MAKE it work or he won't. And who the hell wants a half ass "effort" after what you've gone through? I sure wouldn't. Don't lower your standards so much. He'll meet them...
(( j ))
Don't lower your standards so much. He'll meet them
Or you will find someone who will!!!! You've got lots of great posters here, PM. I do think you have to come to dropping the rope at your own time. You may want to take baby steps into looking into a move. A lot of stuff now you can do online, or maybe a visit there to check out places to live or work or whatever. You don't have to 100% commit today, but just maybe move baby steps in that direction if you feel like it. But yeah, the focus should be on you and what you want to do with your life, and not your H's reactions to it or anything about your H. Karen
Hi MLC and Karen,
Thanks for your posts. The reason I want to tell him about the school applications is that the father also has to sign the application. I can't put them in just under my name, otherwise I would have paid the application fee and put their names down already. And since our IC has been talking about a real convo in his office, I have been waiting for that to happen before dropping the bomb on H. It's definitely not a tactic. I am REALLY considering going home. We have a house near my parents that we are renting out so the kids and I can move into there. I really liked the school I visited. So I have made concrete steps in that direction. The only question is timing, really. When and how soon? Because, like I said before, the move will be for good. We probably won't be coming back. So in essence, I will be giving up my life here and probably H as well. So it's not JUST a move, it's a commitment to a new future without H.
You may all think that heck, if he wants to be with you, he will just move to be with you. But in reality, that is 99%-99.9% unlikely. My H now defines himself by his job. I KNOW he would rather lose his family than his career. So if I were a betting gal, I would be that he would stay with his job and let our family move away. His justification would be - hey, they chose to leave me, nothing I can do about it. But in reality, he would be choosing his career over us.
So if I want to keep this M, I will need to stay here and work at it. That is, if I believe there is a future down the road. If I don't, then I will up and move home. No use waiting around for nothing to happen and also watching my H wasting his life away on OW and abandoning his former values. Can't bear to watch H lie to the kids either.
I have had several appointments with DB coaches and I have another one on Tuesday. I will see what she says.
MLC, I have been doing a lot of 180s. I used to be judgmental about H's choices and used to comment on them. I don't do that anymore because DB coach says judgment kills intimacy. I used to wait for H to decide what we do on the weekends. I don't do that anymore and make plans for kids and me without H. Those are only two small examples but there are many more. I am not so dependent on H anymore. I am not suffocating him with my dependency or love. He is living his life and I am living mine. Only thing is he is living it with someone else. I would love for that to change but can't go anywhere with it if H's attention is with OW and not on me. He is putting in his efforts there. I have noticed that he is spending a bit more time with kids but his affections are no longer with me anymore. I think he still cares about what I think, I think he values my opinions but I try not to give opinions anymore and try to detach. DB coach says to give him a lot of encouragement for being a good dad. I have done that and continues to do so. So I am trying to follow everything she says. She warned me that MLC could take a long time, I am warned.
I am also very busy with my own life. I have filled it with work and friends and sport. I am extremely busy and popular now and truly happy with my social life. I have always been happy with my social life. That was never a problem.
He has done many things in the past few things for me to 'react' to. He thinks he can hide stuff from me but I can tell when he is lying to my face. I have kept calm and didn't react. Because that was his complaint about me, that I always wore my heart on my sleeve. So I don't react. I don't tell him I know he is lying. I let it go. That is a huge 180 for me. Because if he chooses to lie to me, he will do so. Me making a big fuss about it will just hurt our relationship even more. Whereas now, he can't complain about me, he has to face the reality of his lies and live with them. I am taking myself out of the picture, he has to live with himself. I will not give him more ammunition to use against me.
MLC, I see your point about H wanting to make the effort or he won't. But I really think that he is still unsure. He hasn't quite made up his mind to D. He is passive-aggressive and action for him takes a lot of effort. He is tired and he doesn't want to make the effort. He doesn't want to make the effort to work on M and he doesn't want to make the effort to end the M. Both of these options take tremendous effort.
So he has opt for the easiest option, to let me take the reins. But I refuse to end the M on principle.
My choice in this matter is for the OW to screw up. I can't control what H does. I cannot control what OW does. I can only control myself.
So I am going to control myself, to control my temper, to enjoy and make the most of my life, to be a great Mom and daughter. And I am going to let OW do herself in.
I am going to the best that I can be and let H see me better than ever before.
All affairs end eventually. My H is an excitment seeking person. I already saw the signs of fighting between him and OW recently, he came home crying one morning. A few more of those and my H will be wondering what he has gotten himself into. Me, I am going to show him the confident, busy, beautiful mother to his kids. HE can decide whether to decide to take a second look at me or not.
I really don't think I have to do very much other than the stuff I am doing for myself. I am done with causing drama. I know he is seeing her so why make a fuss about it?? It's a given!
PM, just thought I'd pop in to say hi and that I think you're doing great. Regardless of whether you've been at this one week or one year, only you will know when it's time to move on. You said your DB coach told you that MLC takes time. If you can happily go on as you have been as a great Mom and happy, attractive woman, there's no reason to give it all up just yet. Maybe your H will choose his career over his family if you move away. Nothing in life is certain though.
Keep fighting the fight and keep smiling.
Kev
Thanks Kev, thanks for the hugs too by the way, they cheered me up. I have had a cold this week and had to work late so have been coughing up a lung. Went to see a doc on Friday and she asked if I had the whooping cough shot. I said, yeah, probably when I was a kid. She said I probably could do with a booster. Never heard that before so when I get better, I will have to get a shot. Anyway, finally on the mend now, can get back to my exercises next week which means my endorphin levels will go up again and I will be happier, can't wait.
Not much happening on the H front.
I am getting a lot more work so I am happy about that . Making more friends than ever and meeting more people, ladies all of them. My life is very good. I have good support. New opportunities have opened up to me now that were not available a year ago. I have benefited from this experience. No one knows where this will lead but I feel that I am a better person than before. I hope I am, anyway.
Well Pos Mom,
that does sound as if you are in a decent place internally. What would be the advantages (leaving H aside for a minute) of moving? I mean, if you are getting work there, is it enough?
The other thing is that my h DID choose his career over us. He left us for a "great job" in the tundra and honestly felt that either he "deserved" to live wherever he wanted to, and or that we'd all "get it" when we saw what he could earn up there. But we did not leave, based on a number of reasons including deceit and the openly choosing a career over all of us was untenable for me and our children.
Off he went. Only it wasn't so great without us. And the R's with the kids suffered, never mind me. He got really lonely. He missed us. HE started visiting us a lot. He called daily at least once, if not more. (I visited him eventually, by my choice). He was depressed, frankly and he realized it himself while talking on the phone with me, saying he had gained a little weight and didn't go outside much (and the whole thing up there is the wild frontier, blah blah blah) and then said, "I guess I'm depressed"....
A year passed with me up there as well, and then we left. It was not worth it, in the end. Now, I have to tell you, he does NOT recall ever saying "I'd take the chance on losing my family to go for this job"....but I know the time and place those words came out of his mouth. I believe him when he says he does not recall that. But isn't that weird?
He stumbles with his priorities at times. But there has been great progress. In general, he is a better person now than before. No more victimhood, "I work so hard" etc. B/C as I told him, "if your energy in life goes to your work, that is where your rewards will be....not here at home or with your children....they 'get it' more than you know"....And so, I have seen him apply for jobs here, and now, in places that are close to home but not as "prestigious" as the other places. Truth be told, I'd move for him someday...but it would have to be ONLY after I felt that he'd do the same for us. There was a time that we were "real partners" and made ALL the decisions together and I see that time returning. But for now he has to prove that to me, frankly. Otherwise I am not uprooting the kids again, for his selfishness, let alone when it is irrational.
Oh, the "gold rush" up there? Cost us a fortune b/c they breached the idiotic contract he signed which I had advised against when he asked for my opinion. He ignored it. He doesn't really recall that either. He's embarrassed and there's no need for me to state the obvious....but he DOES have some serious repair work with the kids to do. Especially d20, whom he left while she was in high school. Missed her last 2 years here. Had we done it his way, she'd have been in 4 high schools in 4 years....(and this is after many moves in the military). That's insane, and so selfish, and I knew it, and could not stomach doing that to her when it all made so little sense.
Here's my real point. If my h had not changed, (and maybe his changes are not permanent and that is why I have not yet posted in "divorce busted!" yet, b/c I still want enough time to pass with the "new h" to make sure) I would not follow him or want to be married to him. Who would?
Being that selfish, to the point of deceit, was something that was never present in our marriage before, that I know of anyhow. And it was not something I could have anymore in my life. If H's new found values--which are the ones he had when we first married--are not real, or IF he goes back to being the self absorbed egomaniac "victim" again that his MLC was like, I'm done. Nothing punitive. Just the reality that I know I can be happy with or without him and I love him -and prefer him in my life, but NOT under "any" circumstances.
I will not be married to someone who acts that way again. Been there, done that. He's had his "episode" and I saw him through it and it was not a short time. But I cannot endure anything like that again. The lessons I'd be teaching my daughters would be HORRIBLE....That is huge to me.
Life is too short. But I am hopeful, very much so. Based on things he says and does now that are unprecedented. We're taking a trip next month to see our d20 perform and h started to whine about the missed work...so I had a calm but HEAVY talk with him...I pointed out a few things to him about the symbolism of him leaving a family trip early, again, especially with THIS d....and how short sighted he was being....and what message he was sending after all the poop he put us/her through ----and he put in for leave well in advance and that has never been done BEFORE, and he's taking the whole 3 weeks and we are not discussing "f-n" lost wages blah blah blah....b/c in the real world big picture, this trip is so important to the healing that needs to be done and a few days work will NEVER be missed in the grand scheme of things...and you know? He got it!...(Clap clap clap!!) But I was so worried, I started to think "Oh no, is he going down the idiot tunnel again? NO can do."
So, thank GOD he woke up or someone talked to him like maybe God, or his best friend who IS often the voice of God in h's life. Something got thru to him.
And now my hope is that my children will learn about commitment and forgiveness and loving someone through a terrible time and letting go of it and going forward in life...that is the legacy I hope we leave them. Maybe we'll renew our vows if things go well b/c I do like the ritual of leaving the past behind.
So, if your h continues to choose his career over you and even if he leaves OW, but still makes it clear that you and the kids will never make it an higher on the priority list....how do you see yourself feeling down the road about that? I have to say the kids learn a lot of negative things from these choices. Be mindful of what you are teaching them.
Don't get me wrong. I'm throwing things at you for purposes of thought and discussion. I'm not telling you what to do. But I think part of being "supportive"
here is checking ourselves and our fears and motives and making sure we are making choices based on love, not fear. I think you are certainly close to being there. I only wish I could know how you'll feel if you never get higher on his list than #3, with MAYBE the kids hitting #2....and that's possibly the best case scenario...
When my bil left my older sister, she was heartbroken. 3 kids, 22 years of M and she was always the giver and he was always the moody one, the 'taker'. etc. I found it ironic that he would be the one to leave. But in the back of my mind, despite her deep wound, I thought to myself, "someday she'll be glad he did this" and you know, she is. Doesn't mean that the pain on the kids did NOT suck big time. She'll never feel okay about what the divorce did to the kids. But her new h "gets" her. The M is absolutely the priority in his life. OMG...amazing difference in her life. I had asked what if ex h came into the picture (and he did try, btw, and said he "got it" and "F'd up big time" etc etc but too late, oh well) and she told me, "Now that I know what it's like to be the priority, I'd never go back to what we had..." Her ex did her a favor. OH, he remarried too. Told my sister his new wife is "high maintenance" ---and all I can say is "There is a GOD!"
I hope in a year's time I have put myself on the Div Busted site, (okay, maybe in 6 months...or maybe 4...we'll see) and that you are in the "piecing" phase. It does happen, and I did NOT expect to be where I am today. But just rememeber, life is short. That helps me b/c I am no longer afraid I'll waste it by waiting for someone who either won't ever come back or won't be worth waiting for. That empowers me in a good way. Make sense?
Take care,
(( j ))
Thanks MLC, it really gives me something to think about. I am so glad that you H finally got it. You have done amazing work and it's good to hear that finally he is listening to you. Hope you both hang in there!
I am going offline for a few days. Will be back abt a week. Take care everyone and I will catch up with yr sitch's later. I am thinking of all of you.
just wanted to stop by - I see you are out of town... touch base when you are back...
thinking of you
Hi Everyone,
Back in town. Nothing much to report except that H didn't call once. He did call last time when we were out of town for a week. But nothing this time. He seems to be pulling further away. Maybe still in a fog I don't know. Kids finally noticed that I wasn't wearing my wedding band (after three months). I didn't really answer them, I just said that it was at home in a safe place.
Journaling:
H coming tomorrow to spend the days with kids. I have to remind myself what my IC said, 'Kill him with kindness.', 'Smile, act friendly'. I have to follow his advice to a 'T' if I was to stand a chance at all.
But for the past week, I have had pretty negative thoughts about possibility of future reconciliation. I just, at the moment, don't believe it's going to happen. But I have to give this one last try before I give up. Must do this.
PM
I answered your post in my thread already but I just wanted to come on here and offer my support to you.
What you're doing by still trying is admirable. Your resolve is amazing. I only hope if I'm still in the same place a year after the bomb that I can be as strong as you. I have read that a MLC can take anything up to 3 years to blow over. I'm sure you've seen that too? That must be a really difficult time frame to get your head around.
I understand that by not hearing from your H in a week that your negative feelings would increase towards the reconcilliation. I'd wait to see how things pan out over the weekend though. Do what your IC said and then pay attention to all the reactions your H makes. I honestly believe from your previous posts that you were starting to make some progress. I know myself that when you see the first signs that the wall may be weakening, you get your hopes up again and start hoping for more signs quickly. It does seem though in reality that these signs don't happen all at once. One thing my DB coach told me though was that it's the first stage that takes all the time. Once you move past it, things start to happen much quicker.
Stay strong PM. I still believe in you here. And keep smiling.
Kev
Thanks Kev, I really needed your words. You are absolutely right. The week away caused a lot of anxiety in me. I don't know why it's happened this time. I guess because he didn't ask anything about us before we left and the fact that he seemed uninterested. And the fact that he didn't call. I kind of know how things will pan out this weekend. We are always on our best behavior to make everything as 'normal' as possible and to avoid conflict. It's for the best actually because then there is no awful scenes. My goal is still to make the kids as happy as possible. I don't want them to hurt.
Thanks for yur input from DB Coach, I didn't know the first stage takes up all the time. I guess especially since there is OW involved, and MLC, it just takes even longer. OK, now my expectations are lowered and I can relax a bit. I will try to be friends.
The kids called him because they wanted to talk to him after we arrived. I just acted real casual on the phone and asked him how his week was. He hummed and ahhed and said he was busy, everyday. ( Yeah right, the weekend as well, uh-huh). Well, I just let it slide. No use pinpointing him and needling him. I am expecting him to lie. It's just a pity that he feels he still has to lie now, after eight months of no confrontations he thinks I will confront him NOW??? That's why I feel sad, it seems like he doesn't feel comfortable with me at all and lying is his main form of communication with me. So very sad.
H shows up today around 11 am to spend time with the kids. Usually we all go out to lunch but today he didnt mention anything so we just ate a quick lunch at home. Then he proceeds to sleep in the spare bedroom. He wakes up a couple of hours later and says he has stomach flu or food poisoning. I gave him some immodium and told him that he should rest and I can handle the kids. He goes back to sleep. He wakes up in time for a small play with kids and then watch us have dinner as he wasn't hungry then left at 7pm. So he came by today just to take a nap? Strange, it goes in the why bother page. If he was feeling poorly then he should have just stayed at his place or her place or whatever but why show up here? Maybe he thought he could sleep it off or something. Then when I suggested he take some more immodium with him, he made a face like I was telling him what to do or something. Can't live with him, can't live without him. Urghhh!
A poem for inspiration:
DON’T QUIT!
When things go wrong as they sometimes will
When the road you’re trudging seems all up hill
When the funds are low and the debts are high
And you want to smile, but you have to sigh
When care is pressing you down a bit
Rest, if you must, but don’t you quit.
Life is queer, with its twists and turns
As everyone of us sometimes learns
And many a failure turns about
When he might have won had he stuck it out
Don’t give up though the pace seems slow
You may succeed with another blow.
Success is failure turned inside out
The silver tint of the clouds of doubt
And you never can tell how close you are
It may be near when it seems so far
So stick to the fight when you’re hardest hit
It’s when things seem worst that you must not quit.
This thread is going to close out soon so I will post under PM Thread #5 - Hope this new plan works. See y'all there!