Hi,
I am so lost and confused. My W and I have known each other since we were 13 (we're now 30), we've been best friends ever since and have been married 10 yrs. We have a 4 yr old daughter. Six months ago my wife said she wanted a sep. I moved out for a week, she said she missed me and wanted me back home, but when I returned she began to say she wasn't comfortable with any physical contact with me. I began to see a lot of changes in her behavior, and my suspicions led me to look at her texts. There were many texts, but I could only read 2 before breakind down. They were from her to a male co-worker, and they said "I really like you, but you really hurt me" and the other said "Everytime I try to get closer to you, you pull that I'm having a bad day crap. I'm really getting sick of that." I confronted my W and she denied that there was anything wrong with those texts. I also began to check the cell account and saw that she was texting/calling this guy all throughout the night for long periods of time. I also saw a note she had written asking if the guy was "playing hard to get" and "if he was in a serious relationship." She also said that her thoughts were "consumed" with him. Phone calls never ended. She just ended up opening her own private cell account. For about a two months from Aug to October, she began acting like things were good between us again. We even bought our first house together. A week after moving in I saw her online with him and he had wrote something to her that said "loving you" and her response was "everything is not as it seems." I confronted her and she refused to show me the message, said she didn't care what I thought, and said she was getting a divorce. She moved out a week later. This is, of course, a condensed version of the story. There are other less obvious signs that she is cheating. She refuses to even work on the relationship. This is what's most troubling to me. We once loved each other very, very much. We were virgins when we got married, we're both Christians (at least she says she is), and I just can't understand why she would want to throw all of this away so quickly. Is this the biggest sign of all that she's having an affair? How can I ever know the truth? She won't admit to ANYTHING!! It is driving me absolutely crazy, I just don't know what to do anymore. Please help!! What should I be looking for? Am I just ignoring what's right in front of me?
Crafidi,
First, I am sorry you are here, but welcome. I hope you find the support you are looking for. The people on the boards are simply awesome.
One thing I have learned, is snooping is/can really only hurt you. I know how difficult it is...but try your hardest not to! I highly recommend reading DB/DR (Divorcebusting/Divorce Remedy)they are awesome resources.
Most importantly, take care of yourself!
cdmod
I am sorry you are here but glad that you found us. At the very least it sounds as if she is having an emotional affair which can be just as devastating as a physical affair.
Unless you are fully prepared for what you find, I would suggest stop snooping. It usually just causes more pain. You will hear this over and over...focus on you. Don't beg or plead in front of her. Focus on you and making your life the way you want it. Become the best you that you can be. I know it is difficult, just take it one day at a time.
Keep posting. We are here for you.
kat
It is so hard to stop looking. I feel like I absolutely need a conclusion to this. She hasn't filed for D, but keeps saying she's going to. I need to know why this is happening. She just won't be honest with me and that is driving me crazy. How do you just let this much of your life go and not want answers?
Crafidi,
I have already given you advice on your Newcomers thread; did you read up on self-esteem and boundary-setting/enforcement yet?
You keep seeming to want to know "why" . . . this is a cheeseless tunnel. Why do terrorists kill innocent people? Why do bullies pick on weak victims?
It is what it is; we are sinful, and it is human nature to lust and to want what makes us feel good. I'd like to see you focus less on the "why?/woe-is-me" stuff, and concentrate on learning about boundary-setting, and about affairs, and come up with a gameplan for working on CRAFIDI, and leave your wife to her own devices.
You can't control her.
Puppy
That is so much easier said than done. Especially when she just keeps me in limbo. Another "why" I want an answer to is "why" doesn't she just file. She knows my beliefs will not permit me to file, but why doesn't she?? I just can't keep feeling like this on a daily basis. I don't even know that my self esteem is as low as you imply--I love my wife very much, and I've said we've been best friends/lovers for a very long time. Does loving someone mean you have low self esteem? I am a Christian, I am faithful, I am very loving and forgiving, I am devoted to my family, I am a very good looking young man (only 30) (I look like Johnny Depp, been told this by strangers on the NYC subway and by friends/coworkers), I'm educated, I have a great job at New York University, I own a home--I have a lot to offer and I know that, but I just don't want to offer it to someone else, I want my wife. Does that mean that I have low self esteem?
Is she having an affair? I don't know. Is she cheating on you? Yes, in my opinion. At the very least she is sharing her personal thoughts and I love you's with someone who is not her husband. That in itself is not being faithful to you.
I agree with puppy you need to decide what YOU are going to do. I wish I had been firmer with my H. I tried to keep my head in the sand, 'compete' with OW by being cuter, more fun, trying to plan things to keep H busy with me, not her. All it did was keep us together a few more months under the same roof while he still carried on with her and I gave him no consequences. DON'T DO THAT!
Stand up for you, take care of you. I am a Christian and I don't understand how our spouses can say they are believers and consistently act in ways that contradict their faith. Do we all make mistakes? Of course. But there is a difference between occasional oops-es and repeatedly choosing to engage in unfaithful behavior. And it sounds from the messages like your W was doing the pursuing at various points...
Not trying to be negative. I am just saying that spending the next 6 months trying to find conclusive proof that she is cheating won't help your situation. Figuring out what you are/are not willing to stand for, will help you tremendously.
Good luck
It's just sooo hard for me to accept that she no longer loves me the way I love her. We've been together so long and most of it was wonderful, so this is such a shock to me. I guess this takes time. What do I do about her indecisiveness regarding the D (well not that she's changing her mind, but that she just hasn't done it yet)? She keeps me hanging by a thread. Is that just more of me allowing her to dictate how I feel and respond?
That is so much easier said than done.
I base my "self-esteem" observations from your early posts, Crafidi. Perhaps I'm off-base here, it's always hard on forums because we don't truly know the people other than what they post. It's just what "comes across" to me. If you truly have all of these things going for you, then all the more reason to stand up to your wife and learn to convey the confidence and "I will be just fine regardless" attitude that me, Gucci, Phoenix and others are trying to get across here.
Puppy
You said:
What do I do about her indecisiveness regarding the D (well not that she's changing her mind, but that she just hasn't done it yet)?
Hello... that is a decision, she has decided to not move forward yet. I'll bet you a hundred bucks though if you keep on hounding on that issue it will happen a lot faster than you want. Don't talk about it at all. You ask what should you do.... we have answered that, now do it. One day at a time.
I do want to say this however, making mistakes in our lives does not make us un-christian. The 10 commandments is not a top ten list. No sins are better or worse than others. I am sure we have all broken 1 or more of the the commandements in our lifetime.
This is what saved me from coming across as needy and wimpy during my seperation and forced me to shut up the relationship talk with my H. I always envisioned that when he was talking to OW it was always fun and lighthearted and if every time he talked to me it was about:
1) the kids missing him
2) me missing him
3) begging him to think about it
4) pleading him to come home
5) can you fix this at the house, it's broken
6) do you want to come to dinner
7) how can you throw it all away
8) You get the point
So, I became a guilt free, everything is going well, happy, independant,validating, smile and wave, supportive, non-relationship talking, boundary having person.
Do you get that? It's the hardest thing I have ever done. I cried many times after our interactions. I never let him see it or hear it after my initail persuing. I didn't sleep or eat for months. But every morning I got up. put my face on, and stopped worrying about tomorrow. I lived from hour to hour, minute to minute sometimes. Guess what? Me and the OW must have switched places..... From what he told me once we were back together... She finally told him one day (while they were together).... I am in the soup with Sandycay.... which meant she's heard enough about me..... seems I was the topic of conversation quite a bit. He never seemed to pay any attention to me about what I was doing but he sure was talking to her about it. I did 180's. Shake it up a bit.
Thank you. I am trying. Most of this is only a month and half old now, so I guess it just takes time. The problem is, she has a problem with anything I do, so I guess I have to see myself independent of her. I can't keep worrying about pleasing her, because she certainly isn't worrying about pleasing me. But what does it mean to do 180s? Does it mean becoming calous? Or does it mean spending money on myself buying myself nice things? The first thing I did when she moved out was go on a trip to CA to be with my family. We hadn't flown without each other since we were married, so this was quite a shock to her. She called me after 2 days and convinced me to come back. She said she wanted to work things out with me. 2 hours after changing my ticket she called and said she still wanted to separate from me. It just seems like I can't win. I guess what I should have done was stay in CA for the duration of my trip and not let her convince me to come back NY so suddenly. What steps did you take to "move on?"
Thank you. I am trying. Most of this is only a month and half old now, so I guess it just takes time. The problem is, she has a problem with anything I do, so I guess I have to see myself independent of her. I can't keep worrying about pleasing her, because she certainly isn't worrying about pleasing me. But what does it mean to do 180s? Does it mean becoming calous? Or does it mean spending money on myself buying myself nice things? The first thing I did when she moved out was go on a trip to CA to be with my family. We hadn't flown without each other since we were married, so this was quite a shock to her. She called me after 2 days and convinced me to come back. She said she wanted to work things out with me. 2 hours after changing my ticket she called and said she still wanted to separate from me. It just seems like I can't win. I guess what I should have done was stay in CA for the duration of my trip and not let her convince me to come back NY so suddenly.
You've answered your own question, Crafidi. A "180" is doing something that's 180 degrees opposite from how you would have done it before, and had you said "OK, great to hear that -- let's discuss that when I'm back home next Tuesday," instead of flying back for her beck and call, you would have successfully done a "180."
Here's a clue as to where you're getting stuck:
Thank you. I am trying. Most of this is only a month and half old now, so I guess it just takes time. The problem is, she has a problem with anything I do . . .
You're continuing to define YOUR success by whether or not SHE "has a problem with" it. Stop that. Instead, learn to definite your own success by DOING THE RIGHT THING, in every situation, and doing what God Himself would HAVE you do at that moment.
Do that, and you will sleep well. It is NOT easy. In fact, it will be the hardest damned thing you've ever done in your entire life.
Puppy
180's = doing things different than you have before.
Yes, you should have stayed in CA. Treat her as you would a neighbor. That's how I was. I NEVER engaged in R talks, fights, his poor woes me conversations. We NEVER fought about anything because that would have made it easier for him to do what he is doing. His thoughts would have been "See, she's a bi*tch, that's why this is ok)
When we discussed money, he would say.. "I guess I will live in my car, or move to Australia and live in a tent"."
Normally I would have felt the need to fix those feelings for him and argue him out of feeling like that. My 180 reply was "Gosh, I am so grateful that you are being so supportive of us, it really means a lot to me. I know this is going to be hard but we will find a way to make it work". Very infrequently I would add a "it doesn't have to be this way". That was as close to Relationship talk as I would get.
My husband also used the hostage anology with me. I learned when he seemed mad at me about something I just validated what he was feeling "I'm sorry you feel that way", or " I can see how you feel like that". I don't recall if you have kids together.
These are some good phrases to use. Your neither agreeing nor disagreeing and it diffuses the conversation. My other favorite phrase to say was "sure". He would be talking about things I did wrong, how I made him feel unloved and disrespected and even if his memory was wrong in what he was recounting I NEVER corrected him I would just nod my head, smile and say sure...Not disagreeing or agreeing. Do not engage.
I will say that I never did not love my husband but point blank I treated him badly. Why? Because somewhere along the line he let me get away with it because he didn't want to fight me. I was good at manipulation. But, I have learned my lesson and it was the hard way.
First...where did she move to? Second...how is she supporting herself and the child? Third...Have you identified who the other guy is?
She is definately keeping you on a string as the backup guy in case things don't work out with the OM. Per your posts about his emails....he seems reluctant and she is pursuing. I would meet with this guy and let him know what he could be destroying!!
Don't sit back shaking like a leaf while others decide your fate. Get in there and be proactive.
I have battled with confronting him for a long time. I haven't confronted him because I feel like she's the one who cheated on me, not him. Besides, I don't know what good it would do--she should love me and care about our family on her own, not because I confront the OM or force her. We both work for NYU, and so does the OM. She is renting a room in a house 2 miles from our home, but she says she's getting an apartment in January. She left our daughter in the house with me, but she sees her on a daily basis. Have you been cheated on?
Sandycay,
Were you cheated on or were you the one who cheated? I don't ask to judge you, and forgive me if it's out of place, I just want to know your perspective and I'm a bit confused from the message you just posted.
Too late to go back on that one, but here's something I recently did that shocked her. We meet in a "community group" before church. It's a group of other married couples w/kids who come together to commune and encourage one another every Sunday. Well we're not close to the group, particularly since we haven't been attending lately. Anyhow, yesterday, w/out 1st asking her permission (which is what I would normally have done) I threw all of our problems out there for the group and asked for their help and prayers. As you can imagine, she was furious, but it was something that the Lord put on my heart to do. I didn't humiliate her or share all of the nitty gritty details, but I did say that she wanted a D and that I did not and that we really needed the help of the church. She tried to yell at me about it afterwards, but I didn't allow her to make me feel bad for what I did. I told her that I felt good about my actions and that I did not regret what I did nor did I think it was wrong to ask our church for help, no matter how she felt about it. In fact, I turned it on her and asked her if she thought that pride or an unwillingness of heart might be why she's so angry. We went to my/our home, I raked leaves (instead of crying like I wanted to) and a few hours later her anger passed. I guess that's a start.
I was cheated on.
Example: In your post above you said "She tried to yell at me about it afterwards, but I didn't allow her to make me feel bad for what I did. I told her that I felt good about my actions and that I did not regret what I did nor did I think it was wrong to ask our church for help, no matter how she felt about it. "
What you should have said is, "I can see how you feel that way", or "I'm sorry you feel that way". But what you did was say "In fact, I turned it on her and asked her if she thought that pride or an unwillingness of heart might be why she's so angry."
What I was saying in my previous post was "even if his memory was wrong in what he was recounting I NEVER corrected him I would just nod my head, smile and say sure...Not disagreeing or agreeing. Do not engage"
Your trying to project your emotions however right on to her. She won't like that and it will only push her further away. Reread my above post and tell me what specific questions you have about. Read it slowly.
Too late to go back on that one, but here's something I recently did that shocked her. We meet in a "community group" before church. It's a group of other married couples w/kids who come together to commune and encourage one another every Sunday. Well we're not close to the group, particularly since we haven't been attending lately. Anyhow, yesterday, w/out 1st asking her permission (which is what I would normally have done) I threw all of our problems out there for the group and asked for their help and prayers. As you can imagine, she was furious, but it was something that the Lord put on my heart to do. I didn't humiliate her or share all of the nitty gritty details, but I did say that she wanted a D and that I did not and that we really needed the help of the church. She tried to yell at me about it afterwards, but I didn't allow her to make me feel bad for what I did. I told her that I felt good about my actions and that I did not regret what I did nor did I think it was wrong to ask our church for help, no matter how she felt about it. In fact, I turned it on her and asked her if she thought that pride or an unwillingness of heart might be why she's so angry. We went to my/our home, I raked leaves (instead of crying like I wanted to) and a few hours later her anger passed. I guess that's a start.
That's a PHENOMENAL start, Crafidi!!! That was very strong and "leading" of you.
And I can guarantee you that althought she acted all livid, that at some level, she also found it attractive. At a MINIMUM, she respects it.
Puppy
What I meant about talking (Not confronting) the OM is that his email to your wife made it sound like she was the pursurer and he was wavering. Just a man to man talk about his side of whats going on and its impact on you and your child might just make him even more unlikely to get with your wife. Work on his conscious a little. Thats what I getting at. If he steps away he incentive to leave might go as well!!
Yeah I am a member of the cheated on club!
"I will say that I never did not love my husband but point blank I treated him badly. Why? Because somewhere along the line he let me get away with it because he didn't want to fight me. I was good at manipulation. But, I have learned my lesson and it was the hard way. "
This is what made me think you cheated--sorry. How do you respond in a non-engaging manner without feeling like you're enabling the other person? I've been trying not to engage her, and just say things like "we're both obviously not communicating well about this, so let's just give each other the benifit of the doubt and not blame one another," but she doesn't accept that. It's like she doesn't want to not fight with me. Were you responding the way you were in order to win your H back, or was it for your own sanity? She starts these arguments with me on a daily basis (this morning it was about how loud I listen to my iPod) and she just keeps at it and at it until she knows she's really hurt me. I often wake up thinking, "today will be a new day" and I will have a good day and do well at work again and carry on, but then she comes along and punches me in the stomach. How do you control your reactions? I guess it's like Puppy said, I just need to do what's right before God and not worry about what she thinks about it.
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ILF,
Not trying to be argumentative, but I would never recommend trying to enlist the help of the OM/potential OM in these situations. You're asking someone who -- if they ARE involved with our spouse in any sort of inappropriate way -- is a LIAR, and you're trying to glean something useful from them?
Confronting OM/OW directly is almost always a mistake. It:
- only elevates their importance
- adds to the "drama" that illicit couples love to thrive on
- is often perceived as weakness by them
- fodder gained from it is not to be believed, at best, and can actually MISLEAD you at worst
- conversely, YOU may reveal things that they will use against you
- legally, it's not a good idea
Puppy
InLikeFlynn,
I guess I'm afraid to do that because I don't have solid evidence that anything has happened. At the least, I know that she had inappropriate feelings for him, but I don't know how much (if at all) he reciprocated those feelings. If I'm wrong, and nothing really happened, my talking to him could be the last nail in the coffin.
Crafidi,
You need to do some studing on NON-REACTIVE behavior and techniques. She's button-pushing; you need to learn to not respond, or at least not escalate. The "value-neutral" phrases others are giving you here are a great way to start -- say things like "I'm sorry you feel that way," or "I can see where that might bother you," or "That certainly wasn't my intention."
Don't jump into her pit with her!!
Puppy
Puppy,
You seem to have a lot of wisdom in these matters. Thanks for sharing. I really do try not to jump into the pit with her, because each time it happens she ends up saying, "see, I admit that I have really hurt you, so why not just divorce me?" She's trying to get me to do the dirty work for her, this way her image in the church is not tarnished. I will try those techniques.
CR
Your mistake is thinking that you are enabling her to do something by your words or actions. She is doing what she wants and is trying to steer her belief (by getting negative reactions from you) that this marriage can't work. Your not going to convince her with words.
Your not going to "win" her back.... everyone whose spouses really came back on this board was because the spouses wanted to. Not because they "made"" the spouse see the error of their ways and guilted them back.
The only thing you can try to do is to not push her further away by engaging in her emotions. I told you in my former post how I responded. Reread
You say "
"we're both obviously not communicating well about this, so let's just give each other the benifit of the doubt and not blame one another,"
To much talk here reread what to say. Zip your lips.
Initially, I did all this to ""win" my husband back. Isn't that what we are all here for? Eventually as I got on my with my life and started excepting my fate, I started doing it because it hurt less. I mean every time we would discuss the R, it gave him another opportunity to convince himself why it wouldn't work. I put it in my mind the more he heard himself say it the more he would believe it so I didn't want to talk about it with him anymore.
Here is a nugget that someone gave me, and I can't remeber if I read it or not but I wrote it down and it became my mantra. Because, I am a woman who will talk anything to death and felt of course my situation was different and I can explain to my husband why he should feel differently than he does.
WRITE THIS DOWN, Tattoo it on your rear, whatever it takes to understand.
Before you speak, and I suggest you never answer quickly when talking to her, ask yourself:
IS WHAT I'M ABOUT TO SAY GOING TO GET ME CLOSER TO MY GOAL?
After, really reading what people where telling me here and reading the DB book the answer was 99% NO. So Zip your lip, even if you are right. My H was truly gone or so I thought you could have knocked me over with a feather when he called me in the middle of the night out of the blue. No one could have convinced me he was contemplating coming back. His world seemed to me like Disney World. See kids when you want, recreate when you want, sleep when you want. That's what he wanted me to see, in reality it was the Tower of Terror! But, I wasn't along for the ride.... I got off.... I let him be and was nice and detached. It was hard and I guess I finally got in the mode because it hurt being to close to the situation. It was better to not know at that point. The devil is in the details, ya know.
I totally agree with Puppy regarding the OM. He doesn't give a poop about your family. Your issue isn't with him, it's with her. It won't change anything for the positive.
Here's one more nugget that I started using on him.
"I need to think about what you are saying, can I get back to you on that?" I would say that as a stall tactic and he was always suprised by it but it worked when I wasn't sure what to say.
For instance: His parents reside on a sailboat out of country and they were coming up to see us...(this is during our seperation with no hope of reconcillation") well he called to ask if his parents could stay at the house. Normally, I would have said Yes, because my relationship with them is good, I would get to see him alot, and my kids would get a good visit with them, as we had not seen them in 3 years. But I said "hhmm let me think about that and I'll get back to you"" Now mind you , he had a two bedroom apartment and there was room for them there. So, I thought about and decided no they can't stay here, because it confused me to be around him in a "family" way and I told his mother that and you know what I told him that too later and they both understood. I did what was best for me, which was ultimately best for my kids. I would have been on pins and needles the whole time and wouldn't enjoy the visit. I did offer for them stay here for a couple of the days they were in town but was clear activities could not include H and I together because it was just to hard on me.
I stood up for myself with boundaries. They were hard to enforce as I was scared to death it was going to push him away..Guess what? He was already gone...so I needed to protect my feelings and emotions. I believe he respected me for these actions. Although, at times he didn't like them...and I don't blame him....he was paying for a house he had no access to etc.. etc. I wouldn't have been happy either but I am a now and forever believer that YOU CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS. Your either in or your out.
Pup, your probably right....I am one of those step on my shoes, I punch you in the face guys when it comes to my family, otherwise a real friendly guy!!!
So maybe not confront....but just go say hello my name is WW's husband. I heard alot about you. Just to see what his reaction would be. Put your face on things. But again that is probably to proactive. So I will leave it alone.
Your response to her regarding your Ipod rant should have been to
W: Hey Crafidi, your Ipod is to loud blah blah blah
C: Nod your head, smile and say sure"
W: It's giving me a headache turn it down
C: I can see where that might give you a headache (then either turn it down or go somewhere else in the house if you want to listen to it
Don't engage, validate what she is feeling, right or wrong and move along.
Gosh that all makes a tremendous amount of sense. By what you are saying, it would make sense to conclude that, at least this early in the game, marriage counseling will only make things worse. Maybe I should go to counseling with the approach that I just want to better understand how she feels, rather than try to fix the marriage. That being said, I can just sit there and let her vent and nod my head and say some of the things you said. We are in counseling (in fact, our appt. is tomorrow), but I am really second guessing how much that will help. I am really going to try and detach and just say the things you and Puppy are suggesting. It will be hard, no doubt, because she really knows how to push my buttons, but I will give it my best. Thanks again.
That's excellent, if only you could script all of our conversations.
Puppy,
You seem to have a lot of wisdom in these matters. Thanks for sharing. I really do try not to jump into the pit with her, because each time it happens she ends up saying, "see, I admit that I have really hurt you, so why not just divorce me?" She's trying to get me to do the dirty work for her, this way her image in the church is not tarnished. I will try those techniques.
CR
Simply tell her "I do not want a divorce," and change the subject.
Hon, all of our spouses know how to push our buttons...your not special there!
Now your job is to find out how to push hers in a different way.
Hard doesn't even begin to describe yours, our journey...but put on your big boy undies and Just DO IT
Set small goals for yourself
Today was such a horrible day!!!! I can't talk now, but I will be back tomorrow.
OK. We'll be here when you're ready to talk.
Puppy
So yesterday morning we were in the car driving to the train station just after dropping our daughter off at school. I asked my wife for her portion of the mortgage pymt, she took the money out and threw it at me. She then said that she was going to our MC for the last time, so I told her there was no point in her going if she was going to stop. I said this in a very level manner. She became very angry and started asking for her money back. I refused and said she needed to help with the mortgage; she started hitting my arm and screaming profanities at me while I was driving. She then began banging on the dashboard and cursing and screaming and crying. I pulled the car over and tried to talk to her, but she wouldn't talk. I asked her in a very loving way (at least I thought so) what was going on with her, but she just kept cursing at me and saying that she just wanted out of the marriage. We were pulled over for about 10 mins, and when I saw that she wouldn't open up I finally told her that if she wanted a D she would have to file and I would sign. This is the 2nd time she had become physically violent with me. Later that day we talked for a while, both of crying and saying how much we love each other, but she still insisted that she wanted a D and told me she had gone to the court already to pick up the papers. I told her that I was still commited to her, and that I still saw a future for us, but she said she's just not ready for that right now. Her big hang up with fixing things w/me is that she says she can't forgive me for telling our friends and family that I thought she had an affair and that I called the police and pushed for her arrest (which they did not do) after she damaged some of the stuff in our home while our daughter was present. She says she can't move on in our relationship after that. I regret talking to so many people about my suspicions and I definitely regret pushing for her arrest, and while I've apologized profusely for both incidents, they were none the less reactions to her actions. She won't acknowledge how much she hurt me and she still says she can't forgive me. Anyhow, this morning we were on the train together and after trying to start small talk w/her and her not really responding, I told her that I wanted to switch cars and ride in separately. She became very upset at this, and said that I wasn't being honest about my feelings and that I was just trying to blame her and make her look bad by saying that she made it seem that she didn't want to ride in with me when in fact I was the one who didn't want to ride in w/her. The truth is, I am very hurt and angry right now, and I do want my space from her. I told her that back (in a text). I said that I only rode in w/her because I didn't want her to think that I didn't want to be around her, but when I saw that she didn't want me there I decided I might as well take my space. She's very upset at this. I feel like she hasn't at all cared about how I feel; she moved out a week after we bought our 1st house together, and has done what ever she's wanted since then, never taking my feelings into consideration. Why shouldn't I take my space when I need it? I honestly can't do anything right by her, so I am just going to start doing what's best for me--afterall, if I don't who will? What about the unforgiveness on her part? I can't keep apologizing for the same things--especially when she is the one who put this entire thing into motion.
She's very upset at this. I feel like she hasn't at all cared about how I feel; she moved out a week after we bought our 1st house together, and has done what ever she's wanted since then, never taking my feelings into consideration. Why shouldn't I take my space when I need it? I honestly can't do anything right by her, so I am just going to start doing what's best for me--afterall, if I don't who will?
Crafidi,
This is the smartest thing you've posted yet.
BINGO!!! 
The light finally came on. It was hard to do, but it's what I needed to do. We didn't talk all day. I had sent her an email just trying to figure out child care plans for tomorrow, but she wouldn't even respond to that. Anyhow, I left it alone. When I saw her after work at the train (we still share the car, so contact is a must) I just said hello, asked how her day was and told her about something funny that had happened to me at work. Totally casual and non-provocative. Didn't ask if she got my email or why she didn't respond. I'm realizing that my happiness and mood hinges on me, not her.
By the way, I just got the Divorce Remedy in the mail, and I'm reading it, but I realized that I probably should have bought Divorce Busting. I think I'll finish remedy and then move on to DB.
You are RAPIDLY improving, Crafidi. I can only imagine how good you're going to get once you read the books!
Puppy
Hey sandycay - that was inspirational for me.
Cardifi I think her anger and frustration comes from her not being sure of what she wants. I would guess ( having been there ) that she is having an A. You act so p*&^%$ off at your spouse because you feel trapped and on very shakey unknown ground.
What drew me back to my H ( who now has left ) was his walking away. As sooon as he shifted from wanting me to not wanting me , i was there. Be firm in what is good and right for you. i think there is no right or wrong , you do what you need to do , as long as you know the consequences. Remember also that there is nothing less attractive than a needy whiny spouse. You hand over your power when you do that.
I think you are absolutely right on all counts. Just this morning she had an awful attitude the minute she walked in the door. Nothing has happened, and I'm beginning to realize that nothing needs to happen--she's just constantly angry. I'm not going to try to do what's right by her anymore, I'm only going to do what I know is right by me and God. I've given her way to much of my power, and I must stop. The only hang up I still have is that I do feel guilty for discussing our issues with so many family members and friends. I did because I really needed to gain perspective--I had a real hard time figuring out if she was cheating on me, and the more I would share my story the more people would say they thought she was, the more they say that the further into denial I went and began seeking someone who would say otherwise (which never happened). Anyhow, she's very very angry and hurt by that, and while she started all of this, I still feel bad for having done that. Do I need to even worry about that? I do want her to know that I wish I hadn't have spoken to so many people, but she won't believe me. Why am I so guilt ridden over that???
Crafidi,
How many people did you expose to?
I also told a few more people than I probably should have, as one should really expose to family and perhaps a best friend or employer, plus OM/OW's spouse.
I would tell you what I told myself -- and my wife -- and that is that I did EVERYTHING that I did in an effort to try to save my marriage, and to fight for my family. Don't beat yourself up over what was -- and is -- a noble fight.
The truth, and the consequences of her actions, are hers to deal with.
Puppy
She then said that she was going to our MC for the last time, so I told her there was no point in her going if she was going to stop. I said this in a very level manner. She became very angry and started asking for her money back. I refused and said she needed to help with the mortgage;
Okay rescripted:
W: I don't want to go to marriage counseling anymore
C: I'm sorry you feel that way
No more discussion. She's trying to get you to engage by pushing your buttons.
2x4 below:
Don't you feel guilty because of her BS rap to lay it on you. It's BS,she knows and you know it. Hell, she's violent. Grab your b*alls back and stuff them in your underwear where they belong.
Stop engaging with her. Be neighborly with her. When she goes down that path it's up to you to jump off.
You need to make it real clear to her that if she hits you again your going to call the police again.People treat you how you allow them to treat you. That is so disrespectful.
Puppy,
I exposed to my family (mom, dad, brother, and aunt) and to my best friend, our pastor, and three members of the church. All really was in an effort to save my marriage. I was always seeking advice and perspective. The problem is she continues to deny having had an affair. The other day she said that this guy was a very close friend who became her "refuge" when she was down, but nothing else. That to me is bothersome enough. She wouldn't have wanted my refuge to be a single woman. Nevertheless, I wish I hadn't have spoken to my family, because as my wife points out, they probably won't forget this, so how is she supposed to feel about rebuilding our family when her in-laws view her in this way. I'm just so sick of not knowing for sure what happened between her and him!! My gut says she did sleep with him at least once, but that's still just a feeling and not a proven fact.
I am stopping engaging her. This morning she had a very negative attitude towards me. She yelled at me for not going back to the house to get our daughters stuffed animal, and I explained to her that if we had gone back she would have missed her train (which she becomes irate about). She continued to yell, so I told her that nothing I did would be right by her anyhow, so I'm just going to do what I think is best. That was the end of it for me. I changed the subject and starting talking about the song on the radio. When I dropped her off at the train I said "have a nice day. I mean that."
Crafidi, since she works at pushing your buttons all the time and tries to get you to fight, you should have little or no contact with her -- include driving her to train. let her figure it out. If you were D she would have to make her own arrangements to get to work everyday. Once things calm down a bit then maybe you can engage in more contact with her including Dbing. just an opinion
Crafidi,
I think that is a very reasonable circle of people to whom to expose. You did what you felt you had to do to try to save your marriage, and you also followed what the Bible says to do.
The text messages were pretty compelling, and the fact she refused to end her "friendship" speaks volumes.
I do understand her pain at facing your family. But she's going to have to decide if running away from all that, or working on her marriage and repairing these relationships, is what she wants to do. Just let her know that if and when she is ready to return to the marriage, and end all contact with him, that you will defend her to anyone who has a problem with that!!
Puppy
he problem is she continues to deny having had an affair. The other day she said that this guy was a very close friend who became her "refuge" when she was down,
Doing that is stepping out of the boundries of Marriage. It may not be physical affair but definitely emotional. Exactly like mine.
While she is talking to him she is not talking to youi would not care about how many people you talked to. You needed advice. My H talked to no-one but constantly threatens to expose OM to his W ( she does not know ) so another family wrecked !!!!!! He listens now to only those who soothe his feathers and stroke his pain.
She is angry because she is deflecting some of her guilt. Play ground stuff. Do not buy into it. She is talking to another guy is an Affair. As a woman the sex part of it , is not what is big for her. It is having that person listen , care , not bother her with the day to day dredgery of home and kids. She is in lala land.
I lied to my H for 3 years before telling the truth. Dont let her do that, as it will wreck your M as it did mine. Go with your gut feeling. It most likely is not wrong.
i also would stop being in a position to have your buttons pushed. Let her get herself to the atation. she has the attitude problem.
I was exactly like your W when I was having an A. Wake up buddy and start protecting yourself. Get tough on her .Give her the wake up call. it was all i needed in the end. The possibility of loosing it all !!!!!!!!
i also would stop being in a position to have your buttons pushed. Let her get herself to the atation. she has the attitude problem.
I was exactly like your W when I was having an A. Wake up buddy and start protecting yourself. Get tough on her .Give her the wake up call. it was all i needed in the end. The possibility of loosing it all !!!!!!!!
It's so interesting to me that we read this (or some version of it) from FWAWs and AWAWs on here all the time, and yet somehow,
it's sacrilege to recommend things like this to BSs.The data is all right there, people -- IT WORKS (or, more accurately, it at least gives you the
best chance for it to work).
Puppy
Wow! A lot of good advice there. Yes, I feel she at least had an emotional affair, but she won't own up to that and call it what it is. She continues to insist it was an innocent friendship (even defends talking to him at 3 am while I sleep). Anyhow, those are all her problems. If things work out I will defend her to anyone, so long as she is repentant and stops this nonsense. What do you all think of a legal separation? Last night after work she said she'd rather do that than get a D, at least for now. She says that God might have a plan for us again, she doesn't see it or how it could even happen, but she at least wants to wait and see. Is that just a prelude to a D? Should I give it a shot? What does a legal sep entail? Anyone been down that road?
Crafidi, Have you continued reading DB and DR?
first STOP asking your W if she is having an EA, PA, talking to OM etc. The more you grill her the more she will run. Does it matter -- you know in your heart what she is doing. She will not tell you and it will frustrate you more with her continued lies. They are in a fog and you will never get an honest answer. Let it go...
Legal Seperation is almost same as D except it is not a D, might buy you some time so she can change her mind, and protect assets. It could be a prelude to a D.
If W wants a LS or a D -- let her get it. Do not help the process in any way till SHE files.
What I did was get some legal consultation from several L so if H asks me for D I will be prepared -- unlike him. I do not want a D but I you also need to have eyes open.
Crafidi,
I haven't been down that road, as my state doesn't offer LS, but from what I've researched about them, it's usually just a prelude to D. I'm generally only in favor of it if:
- you need to separate finances, for YOUR protection
- you or your children cannot withstand the current situation (arguing, angry outbursts, verbal abuse, etc.)
Part of the problem with them is that it doesn't give the wayward spouse an opportunity to see you live out the "new, stronger you" in front of them everyday. DBing obviously can only work to the extent that they're SEEING it play out in front of them. If you're separated, there'll be only a small fraction of the opportunities for them to see that.
Puppy
LS is offered in my state; but the catch is the cost. It costs the same as a D; and it only lasts one year. After the year, if you file for D....well you pay up again.
My L was against the idea just for the cost alone and the process is the same as D.
I am currently reading DR, but I think I need to skip straight to DB. I have stopped asking about the EA/PA/OM. It really doesn't change matters, and as you point out, it only pushes her away more. I am letting go of it (at least in front of her) and praying that God will reveal the truth. I really need to let go of it in my own mind to really allow God to work. I am hoping for the best and preparing for the worst....
I was hounded and hounded by my H for years. I lied and kept the secret. When I did tell the truth it was freeing BUT more importantly it let go of the OM. up until then i was sharing a dirty little ecret with him.
I know with absolute certainty that as long as she continues to deny , or talk to this other guy, you cannot improve things. I also know that hounding her may eventually give you the truth but it will still be you moving on, which will either give her the wake up call or she will leave.
You have lost her at the moment and even though it goes against everything you want to do, it will be you having enough and accepting that, that will be you answer.
Remember A are decietful and ugly and do not last. So even if she does go, once you dont care all the fun and excitement will deflate and the appeal wil lose its shine.
You're right on both counts--it's not what I want to do, but it is what's best for me. I'm not even concerned about the OM at this point. I just found out he's moving out of state. My big problem is the whole ILYBINILWY line--I just don't know what to do with that. What exactly does that mean and what do I respond to that?
Crifadi,
It's all part of the fog speak...
Check out the 3rd page of this thread:
Fog-speak... -AlexEN
Haven't read your sitch, but will respond to your question.
ILYB...means she's having an affair. Simple as that. I'm sure there are times when it's said without an affair going on, but it's extremely rare. It means she's in love with OM and the high that goes with it and thinks because that's the way she feels about OM, that she can't be 'in love' with you.
Believe it or not, I think OM moving out of state is bad for you. I had the same thing in my sitch. Him moving will keep the fantasy alive in her mind. They will have no opportunity to get on each other's nerves. They will have no opportunity to figure out the bad things about each of them which will make it doubly hard to end the 'fantasy' in her mind.
I would suggest reading some books on the subject to get an idea just what ILYB..means and then formulate a plan from there. One good thing about OM moving is, unless your W is planning on moving with him, she probably won't leave the M right away. Women tend to not leave a relationship until they have another one lined up. So that gives you time. But you need to educate yourself on what's going on to know how to fight it.
I'll try to read your whole sitch and maybe offer some advise.
She's gone from being adamant about wanting a D about 2 months ago, to saying she just wants a legal sep for now. She says she doesn't see a future for us, so I don't understand why she doesn't just file for a D. Yes, she was involved with another man (at the very least emotionally)(she says they were just very good friends, in fact she says he was her 'refuge' at times). Any books other than DR & DB you'd recommend for me? She really does love me underneath all of this, so I want to do all that I can to fight for my relationship.
I found "Not Just Friends" by Glass particularily helpful. "Surviving an Affair" by Harley is also very good.
Not Just Friends explains very clearly what you're dealing with.
If she was sure she wanted a D 2 months ago and now just wants a legal separation, she's having second thoughts.
Don't worry too much about the "no future" comment. Waywards all say that. It's part of the script.
Obviously I don't know for sure, but if she says "we're just friends" and he was her 'refuge' I would bet she's very involved EA wise and very possibly PA wise also.
Does she really love you underneath it all? At this point, it doesn't really matter because in her mind, she doesn't. And until she's been NC with OM (even if it's only an EA) for a good period of time, she won't feel anything for you.
You have to get in that mindset. That her reality right now is she doesn't love you and doesn't see any future for you. Can that change? Yes, but it'll take a lot of work and time, time, time.
She was very involved emotionally. They would talk and text for hours in the middle of the night. I'm not clear on the physical, but I guess it doesn't really matter. She was really in love with me at one point; we are HS sweethearts, we've known each other since we were 13, and we were virgins when we got married. We were always attached at the hip. So I don't know if she's having second thoughts, or just having a hard time saying all of that is over. I hope and pray that she will wake up, because I really do still love her and I want to save my marriage. Do you even respond when she says these things? I try to convince her that these feelings will pass, but that doesn't work (still stuck doing more of the same, I guess). She says that there's nothing I'm going to say that she hasn't already thought of. I just don't want to push her further away...
First, you can't "teach" her anything right now.
When she says those things, just validate what she is saying without agreeing with her. If she says "I don't have 'those' feelings for you" just respond "I understand you don't have 'those' feelings for me right now". You're showing her you understand her position but you're not agreeing with her. It shows her you're listening and even if you don't agree, it shows you care about what she's saying.
Hoping she will wake up is what we all want here, but most times it's not an aha moment. It's more of a slow realization, either steady or in fits and starts.
Gotta go. I'll check in later.
Hi,
So last night my W sends me a text saying she wants us to take our daughter to Disneyworld for her 5th bday in Feb. She says we really NEED to go there. Disney is a place that was very special to us as a couple. We grew up together in So.Cal. and went there often on date nights. We have a lot of wonderful memories there. 20 mins later her best friend calls me (she never does this) and starts begging me to do something to stop this path that my W is on. She says I need to take charge and put an end to this and save my family. I feel like I've tried everything, and I don't know what else to try. My wife has gone from wanting a immediate D to now a legal sep, but she says that she sees no future for us. Then I get these Disney messages. After I talked to her friend I called my wife and we had a long conversation and she says things like she knows what she is doing is against God, and that she's praying that God will change her heart back to wanting her family, but that she doesn't understand why he hasn't done that. I told her that God won't wave a magic wand and fix things, but that he wants her to come to him in obedience and from there he will work on her heart. Anyhow, she spends a lot of time crying on the phone, but she doesn't really say anything concrete. This morning she doesn't even mention the conversation. What should I do from her? How can I take charge and put an end to this when she doesn't even live at home?
Again, haven't had a chance to read your whole sitch so I don't know all the particulars, but I guess you have two different approaches you could take.
IF OM is/has moved but she's still talking to him you could take a hard line and tell her you don't think it's appropriate that you vacation together while she's still involved with OM. It sends a wrong signal to your W that you're ok with the current living arrangements and her continued contact with OM. It can show her that you're strong, will not play second fiddle to OM and if she doesn't like it, too bad.
On the other hand (and this is what I did), my wife and I went to Disney two times while she was still hot and heavy in her affair (after I found out, there was another time prior to my finding out). One time it was just us and another time we took the kids. It was the hardest thing I ever did having a good time, showing no emotion, etc when she would sneak off to call or TM OM. You can, in affect, show her you're a better man than OM. Time you spend with your W in a family setting, WITHOUT PRESSURE, is good for you. If Disney is a special place to you and your W, it could bring back those good feelings from where you two started. Has your W given you any indication of the things about you that bother her? You really have to pay attention because a lot of times those signals can be buried in other conversations. If she has, taking a vacation together can be a great time to 'show' her you get it. But don't tell her any of that. She'll have to SEE it. And she won't believe it for a while.
I have to tell you. It will probably take a long time. But it can be done. Show her the man she fell in love with. Be her friend. But it's going to be hard. Hardest thing you've ever done.
I don't know what the right answer is. DB seems to suggest playing the wait it out game. Other sites take a harder approach. Both can work and both can fail. A lot can depend on what led to the EA/PA. If she's crying on the phone a lot, she's conflicted. And conflict is good for the home team.
What do YOU want to do? You know your W the best.
How long has this been going on? How long separated?
This has been going on for 6 months. 1st 3 months were bad, then 2 months were good, then she moved out in October. Last night she said she was going to move back into the house for financial reasons, but that she wasn't happy about that. That of course made me feel like crap. She says that I'm too controlling, but that complaint didn't really start coming out until the OM entered the pic. She also used to say that she didn't think I was in love w/her. That I was too good looking for her (she thinks she's overweight), that I lost interest in her. There was a period of time when I was very, very depressed about moving to NYC, and I know that affected our relationship badly. So when this all started 6 months ago I had a wake up call and started addressing the issues she was complaining about, but now she says it's too late. This morning she said to me that she didn't understand why I have to "look like a model just to go to work." I've always taken care of my appearance, but I guess I've been more attention to my looks lately since all of this happened. The truth is I want her to notice me again. I didn't really respond to her comment, but it makes me wonder if she's feeling a bit jealous. We got married 2 years out of HS, but neither of us ever lived on our own, and now she says she's really enjoying having her own space and leading her own life. Those are the main issues: control, ILYBINILWY, and her wanting to be single. I don't know what to do about her moving back in. I definitely want her at home, but I hate that she doesn't even want to be there.
Hi, crafidi! I've been reading through your sitch, and I wanted to stop by and offer some support. I can see some similarities in our sitches, and I really feel for you.
I too have been in an R with my husband for a long time. Like you, we started dating in high school (I was 15, he was 16). Like you, you both lacked experience outside of eachother.
I think what makes relationships like these so difficult is the lack of independent growth. In many ways, it's a burden to be with someone form such a young age. You grow up together, and you grow into one another. During the times when your peers are out dating and learning what they want in an R, you are in a committed relationship. When your peers are learning to fend for themselves in the real world, you are fending for eachother. When everyone you know is sowing there wild oats so that they can settle in a few years, you are already settled and wodnering what the wild oats would be like.
I think people that haven't been in this type of relationship have no idea how difficult it can be. It ages you prematurely. You feel like you miss out on certain life experiences.
In my case, I fell in love at 15. By the time I was 18, the "honeymoon phase" had run its course. We stayed together and were happy, but I can honestly say that I envied my friends and their "new love". I felt frustrated that I was so young but that I was living life like someone twice my age.
I think your wife is likely dealing with alot of that (much like my own H is now). She probably feels in many ways like she cannot truat her judgement about men/life because she lacks experience (hence the escalating anger). It doesn't make her EA ok, but I completely I understand why it is happening.
The good news is, sweetheart-type relationships are extremely difficult to walk away from. You grew up together. You are more connected than many couples that come together as adults because you have history that spans many different developemental stages.
She might be acting as though your R doesn't matter right now because of the shiny newness of her EA, but believe me, when you detach and pull out that comfortable relationship rug from beneath her feet, she will be shaken.
Seriously.
I've had my own EA (before marriage) and PA (brief fling after marriage), and I can tell you point blank that had my H not been there as my place of comfort and stability - as someone that I knew I could turn to when I was down playign around - I would not have been as attracted to the affairs.
I find it difficult to take alot of the great advice given here myself. I find myself asking if I'm just proving his "we just don't work as husband and wife" BS by detaching.
I ask myself whether I really want to stay. Am I really sure?
You'll have tons of questions, and you'll be on a constant emotional rollercoaster. It's normal. The good news is, the sooner you start truly working at applying the principles, the better chance you have. You've gotten here pretty early in the game, so that's excellent.
Stay strong, and hang in there. I feel for you.
God bless,
~Nas
Thank you so, so much!!! It is so nice to hear from someone who is in a similiar relationship spanning over so many years. I think you are very right about what my W is going through. As I said she's moving back in next month, but she says she's not happy about it, that she just got to get her own place and her own bank account, etc, and she doesn't want to give that up. It's so hurtful--I've given her as much of my life as she's given me, and now I just feel like she wants to throw me out like old garbage. As time progresses I'm beginning to believe that this is less about the EA than it is about her wanting to just be on her own for the 1st time in life--how do I combat that? Do you think she needs to be afraid of losing me? I think you're right, these long term relationships are very hard to walk away from, which is why she's gone back and forth so much between getting a D or just staying separated. The other part of this is that we started off as best friends and then moved into a relationship, so she keeps saying that she still wants me to be a very good friend, but that she sees no future for us as a couple. In some ways, it seems that the length of relationship works for and against us...
Crafidi,
I'm missing something. She wants to be on her own, but yet she wants to move back in for financial reasons?
She needs to make up her mind, and stop jacking around with yours (as well as your heart).
Puppy
Glad to see you back! You're right, but how do I make that happen without forcing her hand to sign D papers? This is the 4th time she's gone back and forth; I don't know if it's just guilt or that she still really does want to be my wife. By the way, she seems to be getting a bit jealous; this morning she asked why I always have to go to work looking like a model!
Here's an update. I called my wife and asked if she'd like to go to lunch. We get to the restaurant and she starts saying that she can't do this anymore, that she doesn't want to be my wife, that she doesn't want to be married, blah blah blah. I can't count the number of times we've had this conversation. She tells me that I'm probably thrilled that she's coming back home so that I can have her under my control (load of BS!! She has always called the shots in our life). I tell her that she made me feel like sh*t last night when she said she was moving back in but that she didn't want to and she was very unhappy about that. She keeps saying that I just want her there regardless of how she feels, but that to is BS, I want her there as my wife, to hold, to hug, to laugh with, to make love to, the whole nine yards. I feel like I should just tell her (again) that if she doesn't want me she should file--I'm so sick of these games. Is that wrong to do? Should I tell her to file again? I really want our M to work, but she really doesn't, so what's the point? I'm in a state of limbo right now, and I feel like a zombie. I have to close my office door several times a day just to cry. I can't focus on anything other than this. I just feel like I can't take this anymore.
As I said she's moving back in next month, but she says she's not happy about it, that she just got to get her own place and her own bank account, etc, and she doesn't want to give that up.
I think it will help for you to consider that there are likely several reasons that she is unhappy about moving back to your home.
---When she has here own place, she can see OM all she wants.
---When she has he own place, she can hide from the reality of her situation - you - and focus on the fantasy, i.e. the A.
---Part of the journey for her is figuring out what it would be like to be single. She wants to see what she missed by getting married so young.
---When she has her own bank account, you can't see what she's doing with her money.
And we could keep going.
The reason I bring this up is because I don't think it works to focus on one aspect of explaining your W's thought process/motivation/behavior. Believe me, I've been down the exact same path. I've told myself that all of the issues my H has with our M are real - needing to figure out who he is, feeling he's missed something in life, feeling as though I am the husband and not him, we're apples and oranges, etc. And they are real. They have been there forever. The point is, one day my H woke up and decided that instead of working on these long-standing issues or living with them as he had been, he instead decided he was done.
It's not a coincidence that his major life epiphany corresponded with him meeting the OW. I think what happens when a lot of people have affairs is that they meet someone. That someone makes them feel fullfilled in a way they haven't felt in some time because that person mets needs that were neglected (unintentionally or not) in the M. That person begins to consume their thoughts and suddenly they are "in love" - or, what the wise call infatuated. Suddenly, this person is unbelievably appealing, and the spouse's flaws are typically magnified. The person having an A descends into "the affair fog". This fog clouds judgement - it helps them to avoid reality by descending into a fantasy world where the grass is greener, their entire life history is completely different from the one they remembered before the OW, and they suddenly feel enlighted, as if they've found the last piece to a giant puzzle.
All of a sudden, they know they've met their soulmate. They begin to rationalize:
---"I was never truly happy with my H/W."
---"I made a mistake in marrying my H/W. I was pressured into it/ I married out of complacency/ I didn't know what love was."
---"I don't truly know who I am."
---"We've changed so much. The people we are now are not compatible."
And it goes on and on and on. The beauty of all of this is that
we know good and well that they actually aren't truly happy
now. It's a skewed version of reality, and once the fog clears and the real world encroaches onto their fantasy world, they then realize that the grass was only greener because they'd put on green-tinted glasses.
The point of that whole rant is to say that your wife likely has many reasons for leaving - and they are likely all equally valid in one way or another. But do not discount the A as being a major part of that. You might be trying to save yourself some pain - even if it's subconscious - by not focusing on the A. Believe me, I did the same thing. It's not to say that you should become obsessed with the A of remove focus from you, but beware denial. The longer you stay in denial, the longer before you can progress in your grief and move to acceptance - and acceptance is where you want to be in order to maximize your DBing efforts.
Your wife probably always struggled - from time to time - with the fact that you'd been together from such a young age. She probably felt - from time to time - a longing for passion and romance that no longer seemed available because you'd both "moved past it". She probably wondered - from time to time - what it would be like to be more like the other people she knew, people who had dated and been wild and young.
But she lived with it. She loved you, and she loved her life with you. If she has any wisdom, then she recognized that the love she had with you was lasting, was real.
It's just that sometimes, she wondered. Sometimes, she felt restless.
But it was never enough to leave until one day, she met someone that made her feel ____ (whatever she wasn't feeling with you). They talked and talked and talked, and after awhile, she found herself longing to be with that person. Somewhere along the line, that person began to consume her thoughts. You were pushed to the sideline in her mental landscape. She began to examine her life, to pluck out all the negative encounters. Now, that once-wistfulness has grown into full-blown panic. She thinks that she's made a mistake with her life, that she needs to be free.
And the rest is history. That might not be exactly what happened with your W - or even with my H for that matter - but I'm willing to bet it's pretty darn close.
I've given her as much of my life as she's given me, and now I just feel like she wants to throw me out like old garbage.
I completely empathize. Believe me, I totally get it.
As time progresses I'm beginning to believe that this is less about the EA than it is about her wanting to just be on her own for the 1st time in life--how do I combat that?
Like I said, don't marginalize the importance of the A. Even if the A is only a catalyst to launch her into action, that is still huge. The problem is that as much as those other issues of her might be the root, the key weakness that propelled her to cheat - the cheating is what is keeping her in her fog. While she's in a euphoric state, there's not much you can do except give her time, give her space, and work on YOU.
The time and space helps to propel the A to its natural death.
Working on you helps you to work through your grief and grow. An added benefits is that when the A begins to fall apart, you will be even more appealing.
The other part of this is that we started off as best friends and then moved into a relationship, so she keeps saying that she still wants me to be a very good friend, but that she sees no future for us as a couple.
You have no idea how much I hear the friend thing myself. I believe that a big part of this is about the cheating spouse minimizing loss. They want to cake-eat. They don't want to truly leave, to truly make a choice between two people and accept all of the consequences. And if you're friends, they feel less guilty.
My H and I are best friends as well, so I know how hard it is. Even if you truly want to be friends later, being friends right now isn't always the best idea. In many cases, it enables the cheating because you're not allowing your spouse to experience the full consequences of her choice. You're not allowing the naturally occuring lesson to fall into place, so they cannot (in many cases) learn from that mistake.
The key is being friendly without being a friend.
Believe me, it is HARD. But you can do it, and you must.
If you do part ways in the end and youboth decide on friendship in the future, that's great. But right now, your W has to feel the loss.
God bless,
~Nas
Crafidi,
The best advice I can give here is that you should not make any decisions - or even communicate with your W if possible - when you are emotional. Use this place for that.
Try to look at the bright side, which is that at least your wife seems to be very confused. I am willing to bet that when she has a bad day with the OM, she comes back to you. That's how the fog tends to work.
I think you need to resolve now to start making her feel the consequences of her choices - i.e. do not enable her. Do not help her financially. Do not treat her as a W (telling her where you're going, etc).
Do NOT take any responsiblity for the divorce - meaning don't push here to take action, and don't take action yourself. Have a plan or several plans, but don't share them. She wants the D. She needs to take ownership - and she is pushing your buttons in part because she wants you to absolve her of that dilemma.
Don't do it. Don't make this easy.
Work on you. Distract yourself with doing things until doing those things becomes natural.
Be friendly, but do not be a friend.
Be strong and know that you CAN do this.
~Nas
Oh my gosh, Nas, I'm always so surprised by how my particular story has been replayed in the lives of others. I honestly feel as though you are right here in my shoes. Everything you said is so true, even about what I'm doing. I have begun to convince myself that she's didn't do anything wrong with the OM, and that all of this is somehow justified. But you know what? It's not justified. We took vows before God that were supposed to mean something. I don't remember our vows saying "as long as we have passion" or "until someone else comes along to reignite my passion." It's not justified. It's downright filthy and disgusting and I am just getting sick to death of it. I'm sick of crying at work, I'm sick of feeling like a piece of trash, and I'm sick of allowing her to make me feel that way. It is just so hard to detach and be friendly without beign a freind, but I definitely get what you're saying about the cake-eating and her needing to feel the loss. She wants it all. She even says we're still a family and we should still go on family vacations together. To that I must say HELL NO!!!!
Oh my gosh, Nas, I'm always so surprised by how my particular story has been replayed in the lives of others. I honestly feel as though you are right here in my shoes.
Hey, Crafidi!
I think we all experience that "wow, this thing happens to other people" reaction when we get here. I'm still working on becoming more active myself as my sitch is fairly recent and I haven't been here all that long, but I can tell you that the more you read up on other people's sitches - and offer support - the more all of this will begin to make sense to you. Most of us here are operating fairly blindly in our sitches because of our emotional attachment. Getting perspective from strangers' dilemmas truly does help to open your eyes to your own circumstances.
Not to pimp my thread or anything, but since our sitches are similar in some regards, it might help you to read what some wise people have said to me. I will warn you that it's alot of reading. I tend to be long-winded.
First Thread Current Thread I have begun to convince myself that she's didn't do anything wrong with the OM, and that all of this is somehow justified.
Yep, totally did that. I am facing reality a little bit more day by day. It's excruciating at first, but once you get past the initial rage and self-pity and aobbing, it actually helps make you stronger and gives you perspective.
I still don't hate my H. I still understand the impetus that drove him to do this. I still can look at my own mistakes and empathize. I am still working towards true forgiveness.
But I'm not being naive, and I'm not trying to kid myself about what's happening (at least not as much as I was). I think only when you can face the full horror of your situation can you begin to evaluate and strategize.
I like to think of the Stockdale Paradox and try to draw wisom and strength from it. "You must never confuse faith that you will prevail in the end — which you can never afford to lose — with the discipline to confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be."
We took vows before God that were supposed to mean something. I don't remember our vows saying "as long as we have passion" or "until someone else comes along to reignite my passion." It's not justified.
That is absolutely correct. Your W has free will, and she has fallen to temptation. But there are no obstacles as far as God's power is concerned. You must trust that God is working in both of you, that He sees your pain and that your pain is part of His plan, that He is helping you to grow by it and that He is with you even when things are bleak.
That doesn't mean you don't have to work for it, but it does mean that you absolutely have God on your side.
I would caution you, however, to judge/blame your wife. Sure, both of you did things that hurt the M. Sure, she's forsken God's laws by succumbing to the Devil. And yes, just because you might have lost some passion, it does not justify her actions.
But, beware casting stones as we are not without sin. She's human, and she made a mistake. It's normal to feel rage, to feel anger, to feel betrayed, to feel sorry for yourself, to feel deep sadness and frustration. But be careful to not let those emotions overwhelm you.
And the other side of that coin is that the longer you feel extreme emotions, the longer she is controlling you. In these situations, the person who cares the least about the R is in control.
Work through those emotions. Give them to God, work them out of your system, vent here - but don't allow yourself to dwell in pain for so long that you cripple yourself.
Not saying you're doing that at all, but it does take a lot of effort to begin to feel happy again. To start dropping the rope as they say.
Believe me, I struggle with it ALL the time.
I'm sick of crying at work, I'm sick of feeling like a piece of trash, and I'm sick of allowing her to make me feel that way.
Yes!
And now you have to do the hardest thing you've ever done - you have to pick yourself up and begin to fight for
yourself. Make yourself a better person. Do the work.
Don't allow your W to control your happiness. Be determined to have a good day. I know that sometimes it feels impossible to have a good day, but the way I look at it, even if I slip into sadness or anger for a little while, if I make the effort to find my own happiness each day, I'm doing well. Some days, you might only be happy for 5 minutes, but eventually, that 5 minutes will become 30 minutes, and that 30 minutes will become 3 hours, and so forth and so on until you're having a happy DAY.
Do that for yourself. The cool thing is, the better you get at being happy with you, the more appealing you'll become to your W.
It is just so hard to detach and be friendly without beign a freind, but I definitely get what you're saying about the cake-eating and her needing to feel the loss. She wants it all.
Yup. Of course she wants it all. Who wouldn't? She doesn't want to face the reality of losing you. She wants to feel less guilty and by doing so justify her decision to leave. Once she has to truly face the reality of what she's giving up, things are going to get more and more difficult for her.
She even says we're still a family and we should still go on family vacations together. To that I must say HELL NO!!!!
I agree that you should not go on the family vacation with her. But I would advise that you be careful in how you tell her that. You want to be friendly but firm. Remember, whoever appears to have let go more has the upper hand. The next time she mentions the vaccation, say something like: "I understand why you'd want us all to go, and it's a lovely idea. However, I don't think it's fair to you, me or the kids to create a false expectation that our lives are not changing. If you'd like to take the kids, I don't mind at all - I bet it'll be a blast - but I won't be able to accompany you as I don't want to further confuse things."
There are probably a lot better ways to say that, but there's a starting point.
Good luck, Crafidi, and God bless. I will be praying for you.
~Nas
Hi Nasmat!
I just love reading your posts--they are long, but I love to read, so keep them coming. I read most of your threads, and again, I am so amazed at the similiarities. I definitely went through and still go through the blaming myself stage. I should have done this differently, said that differently, etc., etc. I know I've done things wrong, but I'm not fully to blame. We all do things wrong, and if the W is looking for perfection, I'm afraid she never be satisfied. Anyhow, this morning went well. I had myself all psyched up to tell her to either decide to work on our relationship or just file for D, but then last night I read more from DR and I realized that I wasn't prepared to end our marriage, which is undoubtedly the choice my W would have made. So, this morning she came, we took our daughter to school, pulled up to the train station early--I told her I was going to relax in the car until the train came, to which she said, "Oh, do you want to be alone?" I said, not necessarily, but I don't care, whatever you want to do. She "Well than I guess I'd better get going." I responded by simply saying "ok, have a good day." That's it--no phone calls or communication since. I'm trying real hard to detach, because I just can't keep giving her full access to my heart just so she stomp on it daily. By the way, she went out last night, so I made sure to shut off the lights and sit infront of the fire and enjoy some quite time alone. She came back to the house to pick up the car and thought I had gone to bed--no more waiting up for her. She then called me (that's a first in a while, her actually calling me) to tell me she came and got the car and is at her place. All of this is progress, I think?
So, this morning she came, we took our daughter to school, pulled up to the train station early--I told her I was going to relax in the car until the train came, to which she said, "Oh, do you want to be alone?" I said, not necessarily, but I don't care, whatever you want to do. She "Well than I guess I'd better get going." I responded by simply saying "ok, have a good day." That's it--no phone calls or communication since. I'm trying real hard to detach, because I just can't keep giving her full access to my heart just so she stomp on it daily. By the way, she went out last night, so I made sure to shut off the lights and sit infront of the fire and enjoy some quite time alone. She came back to the house to pick up the car and thought I had gone to bed--no more waiting up for her. She then called me (that's a first in a while, her actually calling me) to tell me she came and got the car and is at her place. All of this is progress, I think?
Nicely done!
Puppy
Thank you very much (bowing)! This forum is so helpful. I hope you are doing well. Any plans to get away from the madness for the holidays?
Try not to have to much alone time. I don't think it is good. For me I just filled up with sadness. Sometimes is ok but just be wary. Getting away and having fun , takes your mind of everything AND then things get a little easier to deal with.
Make plans during the week for the weekend. Even when it is sooooooo hard to go out. JUST DO IT. You wont be disappointed in how you will feel in the next few days. Works a charm.
Thank you very much (bowing)! This forum is so helpful. I hope you are doing well. Any plans to get away from the madness for the holidays?
Afraid not. I'm just going to enjoy my kids, and our last Christmas together as an intact family. Their little world is about to be blown apart.
That's what's so awful about all of this. My daughter, who's 4, told me last night that she's very sad because her mommy doesn't live with us anymore and she's very disappointed that mommy doesn't sleep in the house with us. That's what's crushing...
It's over. The end of my relationship ran its course very quickly. It's only been since October that my W moved out, but she's been determined to end our marriage since the day she left. Yesterday we got into another big argument about nothing and everything. I asked her once and for all (this after hearing her tell me for at least 25 times that she wasn't interested in being my wife) if she was considering reconciliation. She said she wasn't, so we argued again this morning about why she would walk away from a relationship as old and loving as ours once was, and she just said she was no longer interested in this marriage. She's never been on her own and she wants to find out who she is away from me. We argued and in my heart I knew that all this interaction was doing was hurting any possibility of a future for us, so I called her back to me and I said, "I love you enough to let you go. I hope you find what you are looking for." I began weeping violently, she held me and cried as well. I was crying so I hard I began shaking. I honestly felt just like I was at a funeral. This was the most excruciating thing I have ever done, but I felt it needed to be done. I love my wife with all my heart, and I knew if we continued like this we would get to a point of hatred, so I didn't want to risk that. She started talking about dating other people, I told her that I would not be dating anyone, at least not now, and that my focus was on myself and taking care of the issues that have plagued me (insecurity and jealousy mostly). I told her that I thought her rushing into a relationship would be a big mistake and would only stifle her efforts to address her own issues (trust, forgiveness and faithfulness). I told her those issues would follow her wherever she went. She said she felt that she was addressing those issues by leaving (obviously not reality). Anyhow, she is now in God's hand where she should be. I can only continue to pray for her and love her from a distance. I am so sad and hurt, but I am looking forward to whatever God has in store for me. Please pray for me that I will remain faithful to the Lord and in my sadness not turn away from His sound word. I will continue posting and checking in w/others, as I have found this site to be a refuge for me in the past few weeks. I wish I had found it earlier in my relationship...
Crafidi,
I'm very sorry for your pain. I too had a violent sobbing episode just on Sunday, when I got back in my car, alone, after calmly and fairly unemotionally discussing with my wife our definitive plans to move forward with divorce after the holidays.
Then in my car, it just hit me.
Hang in there. Who knows what the future will hold once she sees what lies on the other side of the fence. "Letting go" is not the same as "giving up."
Manly Sopranos-style hugs,
Puppy
Thank you, Puppy. Manly hugs back at you. You're right about letting go v. giving up, but I just don't know what more I can do other than give up and let her make her own decisions. Last night, maybe out of guilt, I'm not sure, she made me a nice dinner and we watched a movie together. We had a nice time, as friends of course. But this morning, I told her I didn't feel like sitting around the house all day. I threw out many suggestions of things to do, but she shot them all down saying she wasn't up to leaving. So I finally got myself and my D dressed and told my W that I was going to go to the mall and take my D to her favorite indoor park. Well W immediately got an attitude and hasn't spoken to me since I returned from the mall. I swear I just can't figure her out. By the way, she doesn't live with me, but she's always here because I'm in the house while she just has a room that she rents, so while we aren't together, we're constantly in each other's presence, which I think is bad for both of us. Don't know how to change this since she can't afford a real place on her own....
Hang in there. Who knows what the future will hold once she sees what lies on the other side of the fence. "Letting go" is not the same as "giving up."
Manly Sopranos-style hugs,
Puppy
Yeah. I think they tend to really fantasize the "greener grass" life that they will have when they don't have you holding them back & causing all their problems.
At some point, I would think they lose a little bit of that fantasy when reality intrudes. I've seen that happen here, but then sometimes I'm sure maybe the WAS is too proud to admit to making a huge mistake or maybe the LBS moves on and finds someone also. I'm letting God kind of look out for me, not really looking to rush into an R or anything. Maybe just look for friendship after D and maybe it'll lead into something or not. Continuing to GAL and work on myself, become stronger and healthier, and happier no matter what happens... Wimpy, girly hugs to you too!
Karen
Thank you for the wimpy girly hugs, those are the best kind (no offense Puppy)! Sounds like you have a good plan. God will look out for you, and I definitely think forcing or rushing a new R will only rob you of finding true happiness and finding yourself. I'm in no rush to be in another R (even though my W has started talking about her desire to date and even told me that if I wanted to go out I should--yeah, thanks for the permission WAW!). Anyhow, I continue to pray for my marriage and she continues to be the love of my life, so until that changes I'm just going to focus on me and pray for us. Of course, my hope is that my love for her will continue despite her disdain for me, and that my prayers for us will be answered. I just have to trust that God is big enough for this and he knows what's best for me. You keep your head up!
Journal:
Today was a horrible day for me. Last night ended on a good note despite the horror of the morning. We enjoyed dinner and a movie together here at the house. Today was just really bad. I was depressed all day. I never seem to see her depressed, she just always acts so happy and light hearted. That hurts more than anything she intentionally does to me. Every time I hear her laughing and joking and singing it just cuts my heart in half. Today I saw her setting up her new facebook account and she was downloading a lot of pics of our daughter from our various family trips and it really hurt me to notice that there weren't any pictures of me. I mean not that I expect there to be, but it just really hurt to see her downloading those pics and talking about them but just purposely making sure I wasn't in any of the pics she chose. I feel like I've been cut out of her life, which I guess I have. She also played some songs that are very painful for me to hear, one was "With Arms Wide Open" by Creed and the other was "I Still Believe" by Jeremy Camp. Both songs are very personal to me and both really link to my sit, so hearing them really hurt. I had to escape to the spare room 3 times today to sob. She saw I was depressed, so after putting our D to bed she sort of stormed out with her usual attitude. I told her I wasn't mad, but sad, but she just said "ok whatever, I'm leaving so you can have your space." It's as if I'm not allowed to be sad. Maybe I should be happy like she is. Maybe I should run around singing and dancing and joking and laughing. I just don't know how to hide my feelings. I know I need to appear happy around her, especially if I'm going to make myself and our family attractive to her again, but I just can't get over my pain. And nothing seems to work anyhow. I'm very down tonight so I'm going to go to bed now. Goodnight all.
quote=crafidi]Journal:
Today was a horrible day for me. Last night ended on a good note despite the horror of the morning. We enjoyed dinner and a movie together here at the house.
I think I'm a little bit further along in the process than you are, but I had this kind of thing really bad about a year ago. I'd have a good day and then a horrible, super depressed day. Rollercoaster emotions. That gets better with time. I mean yeah, we're going through a lot!
I never seem to see her depressed, she just always acts so happy and light hearted. That hurts more than anything she intentionally does to me. Every time I hear her laughing and joking and singing it just cuts my heart in half.
Well, not that my H was laughing and joking and real happy last year, but I was seriously depressed. I think looking at us one year later, that my H seems kind of depressed usually and I'm prob. the happiest I've been in a long time. I've learned to take care of myself more and not just focus on the kids, spent time with friends, GALing, and worked on some of my weaknesses. I feel so much better about myself, and I think my H is kind of looking for others (well OW) to make him feel better. Don't think that will work in the long-run though as much as learning to make yourself happy.
Both songs are very personal to me and both really link to my sit, so hearing them really hurt.
Well, I think one thing that almost all WAS have in common is self-absorption and self-interest. They don't think about your feelings or anyone's except themselves. Have to deal with that. I tend to expect the worst from my H, no expectations, etc.
I had to escape to the spare room 3 times today to sob. She saw I was depressed, so after putting our D to bed she sort of stormed out with her usual attitude. I told her I wasn't mad, but sad, but she just said "ok whatever, I'm leaving so you can have your space." It's as if I'm not allowed to be sad.
I think it's fine to be sad sometimes, and I certainly have had my sad days! But I do think it's better to post here and vent here rather than be depressed around your W. I would just have those days where I would feel weaker and more down and finally learned to do stuff, GALing type stuff, so I wasn't around my H when I felt low, plus doing GALing and hanging out with friends actually would cheer me up and help me feel stronger so win-win. But when you feel sad, and sometimes friends & family don't want to hear it for long, this is a great place to post. You'll always find supportive friends here.
Maybe I should be happy like she is. Maybe I should run around singing and dancing and joking and laughing.
Maybe. When I was depressed, I kind of was acting happy sometimes and not really happy, and I would sing, dance, joke, and laugh, and before I knew it--I actually was happy. Don't know if that would work for everyone though. And believe it I had lots of moments where I wasn't singing and dancing, but well I actually threw myself into a musical where I was singing and dancing and joking around, it really helped me become a happier person, but I'm sure you have to enjoy singing and dancing for that to work.
I've had those days and usually the next day is always a lot better. And if not, you can post here and gripe and moan and we can all relate!!! Hope you feel better tomorrow!
Karen
Well, not that my H was laughing and joking and real happy last year, but I was seriously depressed. I think looking at us one year later, that my H seems kind of depressed usually and I'm prob. the happiest I've been in a long time. I've learned to take care of myself more and not just focus on the kids, spent time with friends, GALing, and worked on some of my weaknesses. I feel so much better about myself, and I think my H is kind of looking for others (well OW) to make him feel better. Don't think that will work in the long-run though as much as learning to make yourself happy.
I absolutely think this is what's going to happen in my sitch, too!
Puppy
Karen,
You are so right. I felt much better yesterday after I journaled. I did go into an empty room to cry, but she did still no that I was bothered. I called her last night after journaling, because like I said she left angry. So when I called I told her that I wanted her to know about the things that triggered my sadness earlier in the day, that I wasn't feeling anger, but just extreme sadness. She thanked me and said she thought I just didn't want to be around her. So, I think that was good. I know that miscommunications have caused us a lot of grief in the past, so I felt it was important that she knew what I was feeling. This morning she asked me why I still love her, and after I answered she said, "but we never have a good time together anymore" to which I said " that's only because of the current situation, we always enjoyed eachother's company before all of this happened." She then said "but this is what the situation is." I said that we need to change the situation. I told her that letting go didn't mean that I was giving up on her, but that I still love her and I want her in my life, so I will not stop seeking that. She didn't respond to that, which I can interpret as good, because last week she probably would have said that I should stop because it wasn't going to happen. Anyhow, I think I finally get the point from you, the book, everyone on the forum, and even my W, that it's important to be positive and happy around them. That is probably the only thing that might bring our WAS back.
This morning she asked me why I still love her, and after I answered she said, "but we never have a good time together anymore" to which I said " that's only because of the current situation, we always enjoyed eachother's company before all of this happened." She then said "but this is what the situation is." I said that we need to change the situation. I told her that letting go didn't mean that I was giving up on her, but that I still love her and I want her in my life, so I will not stop seeking that.
Crafidi,
So long as that is conveyed along with -- either spoken or implied -- an overall attitude of "But I won't wait, either -- I am busy, have things to do, and and moving along down the path," that is fine.
"I'm not giving up on you, and I'll be right here, waiting" = BAD (pathetically waiting; needy)
"I'm not giving up on us, but I need to protect my heart, and am moving along down the path that God has chosen for me right now. Someday, I still hope and pray that you'll join me on this path, because I still love you and believe in us, but I have to start moving on with my life since you seem to have made your choice" = GOOD (confident, leading, yet still hopeful)
Do you understand the distinction?
Puppy
[quote=karen43]
I absolutely think this is what's going to happen in my sitch, too!
Puppy
Absolutely it's going to happen. I think it will happen to most of us at some point. Look at Kat's H lately. They kind of try to burn bridges, and then maybe when they're gone they realize they had a better bridge than they thought? Ok, that was cheesey even for me!!!
And btw, I agree with everything Puppy said!!! Karen
And btw, I agree with everything Puppy said!!! Karen
Things would have been soooooo much easier!
LOL. I'm keeding. I keed. I am a keeder.
Puppy
I definitely see the difference. BTW, I like option 3, will you sue me if I plagarize?
What I want to accomplish for myself is the ability to breathe, so to speak, without my wife in my everyday life. I want to know that I can live a complete and full life w/out her, and that I can be a wonderful father to my daughter without her. I'd prefer it if she were in my life, but for now she's chosen not to be, so I do need to focus on myself and my issues. Let's face it, our spouses chose to leave us, but this could have been different--let's imagine that they got sick and passed, we would all be faced w/very similiar circumstances (e.g. financial, housing, emotions, moving on, etc.). I know it's not quite the same, but it also isn't that different. In case I haven't said this already, you all give wonderful advice and support! Thank you as always.
Crafidi, I think you've got it. Wise thinking.
Merry Christmas, crafidi! I hope that you are enjoying a glorious day, and that the mercy and love of Christ is with you and your loved ones today. May God continue to bless you and keep you for all your days.
I'm so sorry that I haven't been by to offer much support lately. I will give everything a proper read-through once the holiday cheer calms down a bit (at my parents' place today). I am so proud of that stand you are taking, and I know that you will do very well.
Thank you for all the support that you have given me. I cannot thank you enough.
God bless you and keep you,
~Nas
P.S. You asked in one of my posts if I was Middle Eastern. I'm actually half Sri Lankan and half Hungarian, but I grew up in the Middle Eastern culture as my two best friends are Lebanese and Persian (and she married a Palestinian-Jordanian). I was adopted into the culture, so I speak a little Arabic, I know all the songs and singers, I bellydance, and I pretty much can act as if (ha!) I'm Arab or Persian if the occassion calls for it.
Merry belated Christmas to you too!! I hope your holiday was great. Mine was actually pretty good. I spent it with my wife and daughter. We had a nice time as a family, but it is still so hard (as you can imagine). Don't be so proud of my stands, they never seem to take full hold. I really do still love her and I just can't seem to totally let go, no matter what I say. The problem is, of course, she's not loving me back, yet she still hasn't filed for divorce. I just can't seem to figure it out. Hopefully the new year will bring me clarity. We're both off work for the next week, so I may a bit missing in action until the 5th. Have a very happy New Year and I hope it is much better than this year has been! God bless you!
crafidi,
Reading your story felt like my own. My H is having an unconfirmed EA as well. I know how hard it can be to live in the same house with the person you love and know that they are not feeling the love that you are.
I am trying most to follow the "act as if" principle. I am acting as if everything is ok and that everything will work out. Remember that the OM is helping your W feel good things about herself. Try working on being her friend first and being the person that she fell in love with so many years ago.
I hope that your time together will be good. Just act as if you are enjoying your life and hopefully you will make it true.
God Bless!
K
M The problem is, of course, she's not loving me back, yet she still hasn't filed for divorce. I just can't seem to figure it out.
You are her safety net. She can explore other options, but still have you there if the other options don't work out.
K,
I really am trying but it is so hard. Most of the time I can fake a smile and pretend to be happy, but I'm honestly dying inside. She spent the past couple of nights in the house w/my daughter and I (on the sofa bed), and it's just so difficult. I was actually thinking of trying to initiate physical contact w/her in a take charge kind of way, but then I thought that could really back fire on me. I just don't know what to do. I also now think she may begin dating even though we're not even divorced, though functionally we are. Everything is just killing me inside. My life has become such a roller coaster--I have these moments of great strength and then I feel like crap all over again. She told me the other night that one thing that would make her consider our relationship again is if she felt that I could be truly happy without her. She said that she feels like she's my life and that I'm to dependent on her and that makes her feel suffocated. I don't really get that, because since she left I have continued on with my daily life, yes it is hard and yes I do feel very sad and yes I do cry about it, but isn't that normal? Am I just supposed to say oh well and move right on? I think I could do that if I didn't really love her, but since I do love her that is very difficult. I know this has to do with GALing, but I guess I just haven't figured that part out yet. By the way, I will read your thread tonight and hopefully I'll be inspired.
CR
She told me the other night that one thing that would make her consider our relationship again is if she felt that I could be truly happy without her. She said that she feels like she's my life and that I'm to dependent on her and that makes her feel suffocated.
CR
That's huge. I mean my H has never looked back I don't think. I think you should work on GALing and realizing that you
can be happy without her. Happiness is from inside, you really can't get that from someone else. And obviously it makes your W pressured to feel like it's her job to make you happy. I would recommend some serious GALing. Find out what makes you happy and do it. PM has a great link she posted recently that has some great advice in it also. You can do this!!!
Karen
Am I just supposed to say oh well and move right on? I think I could do that if I didn't really love her, but since I do love her that is very difficult.
I loved my H enough to let him go. I finally realized it would be more selfish of me to try and keep someone with me who didn't love me --even though I knew he did, and would someday regret losing someone he had such a long history with and who was extremely loving, accepting and supportive.
I knew it would only backfire for me to selfishly try to hold onto him, or try to talk him into staying if he all he wanted to do was leave. Quite honestly it was one of the most powerful and "freeing" lessons I learned. And the eventual acceptance and realization that I didn't want him back unless he was 100% certain he wanted to be with me. He had spent waaaay too many years yo-yoing. And I had spent waaaay too many years trying to convince him to stay. I felt is was unfair to the kids. And I finally realized I wanted to be married to someone who really wanted to be married to me.
So.... my point is that detaching, letting go, and moving on doesn't mean you don't love the person. In some ways it means you love them more.
But why the h@ll are you on the couch?!!!
Hi K,
I know I can, but I don't know how to do it w/out changing or compromising who I am. For example, she tells me to go out after work and have drinks w/my co-workers. I like coming home to be with my family after work. My D4 is in day care all day long and after work I want to come home and see her. I also want to come home and see my W. I also don't really want to hang out with a bunch of my co-workers who don't share my beliefs and views. I'm a family man and that's how I like being. Any suggestions on how to GAL without changing your core values?
Running,
I also get what you mean. I definitely don't want her with me out of guilt, but I also believe that if she sticks to our marriage out of submission to God He will show his ways and her heart would follow and our marriage would be more fulfilling than she could ever imagine. She was once very in love with me, and I really want that back, though. I feel like I came to the point of letting go last Saturday, but my heart still aches for her. It's just hard, as you all know. I willing to put in the time, but not if it's all for nothing. I don't want to waste my life loving someone who won't love me back. I know that I deserve to be loved. My desire is that my W is the one who loves me...but who knows if that will be her desire again.
Hi K,
I know I can, but I don't know how to do it w/out changing or compromising who I am. For example, she tells me to go out after work and have drinks w/my co-workers. I like coming home to be with my family after work. My D4 is in day care all day long and after work I want to come home and see her. I also want to come home and see my W. I also don't really want to hang out with a bunch of my co-workers who don't share my beliefs and views. I'm a family man and that's how I like being. Any suggestions on how to GAL without changing your core values?
How about doing some volunteer work? Coaching some kids?
Also, things you can go do WITH your kids?
You shouldn't have to compromise your beliefs, so DON'T. But there ARE things you can go out and do, that don't involve sitting around the house pining away for her.
Puppy
I'm a family man and that's how I like being. Any suggestions on how to GAL without changing your core values?
Sure, I GAL but have kind of the same core values as you. I don't go out drinking either. The family and I are involved with the local theatre group and have been in plays and S15 who doesn't want to be in one does volunteer work. The kids and I do a tae kwondo class two nights a week. I really recommend that as a fun activity, but really whatever you and your family enjoy doing is good. We run in the park with our dog (well I slow jog really).
I do volunteer work also for my church as well. Church activities are great for the whole family. I also do a Bible study one night a week just for myself. I do think you should do an activity or even 2 each week that are just for you. It's good to just sometimes spend time on yourself. I've found that out this past year. You can't just live for your family. I mean at some point they will have their own lives, and you should also put some time into yourself. I've found myself to be a better mom putting an hour or 2 into time for myself.
Karen
She's not open to God's message right now (or anyone else's for that matter...). So you really have to let her go for now. It doesn't mean you are giving up and it doesn't mean you love her and wouldn't prefer to have your family together, it's just that you HAVE to give up control of this whole thing.
That's weird that she wants you to go out with co-workers. My guess is she's trying to assage her own guilt. I would just tell her it's your life and you will make your choices on how to live it. Doing fun things with the kids that she might want to join sounds like a good choice.
And gosh! don't stop looking like a "model" when you do go to work. Even if you aren't trying to attract women it's good for self-esteem and will let her see the great thing she could potentially lose. Next time she comments on how good you look just wink and tell her all the women tell you that. I know that isn't who you are about, but a little bit of humor and even a tiny bit of "mystery" is always good.
Do 180s you feel comfortable with, but don't be afraid to extend yourself a little. She probably sees you as boring. Think of things that might make you more interesting without compromising your values. Join a gym and work out after work (great for self-esteem, and pumping up the endorphins so you feel happier and less stressed). Maybe get a Harley.
Only kidding about the Harley!
HI Guys,
Thanks for the posts. Today was a horrible day. I asked her if she was going out on a date tonight (she is out right now, she says with friends from church, which I believe, but I know that she's going to a dance club). Anyhow, the whole thing turned into a big fight and argument about our relationship, so then I felt guilty for fighting w/her and I went out and bought her a small gift. I swear I am so horrible at all of this!! I really liked the GAL suggestions you all made. I'm seriously considering going on a humanitarian mission. I'm going to look into that now...
C,
You need to cut off the passive-aggressive stuff. You should have just said "I hope you're not planning on seeing OM tonite; that would be incredibly disrespectful to our marriage," and be done with it.
A GIFT?????
Puppy
OK, if you haven't already do not give her the gift. If you did, then learn from that mistake and never do it again!!! You are doing too much pursuing which is making her run away from you. But you know that right?
We've all had horrible days, but I think some of us here have learned from our mistakes and try to do better. In fact I like to think of my mistakes as learning experiences, and I've had a lot of those in my life!!! Do not talk anymore about your R. And what do you mean by going on a mission??? Karen
Puppy & Karen,
I seem to be taking 2 steps forward and 1 or 2 steps back, depending on the day. I did already give her the gift, but here's the weird thing about that. I bought her a household gift that, but she thought I had said I bought her underwear (don't know what she heard), anyhow, I said of course I didn't buy you underwear, to which she replied, "I would have loved it if you bought me underwear." Anyhow, I don't know what to make of that. I didn't say anything back. My wife has a much higher drive than me, and during my depression that was one of the things she complained about, so I am beginning to wonder if I should set up some sort of romantic encounter at a hotel in the city? Here's my plan--I am hoping to have a solid month of not talking about the relationship and of just building a friendship again and of me GAL, then I'll see how things are and move from there. I don't know if I had posted this or not, but about a 2 weeks ago I was commuting w/W and I told her that letting go of her did not mean I was giving up on her, but that I love her and want her in my life so I am going to win her back. Later in the day she thanked me for having said that to her. I feel like I keep getting mixed signals from her, but then she always turns around and says don't read too much into things. Yesterday, I again asked her why she hasn't filed for D if she isn't in love w/me, doesn't want to live me, and doesn't want to work on our R, and she said that if I wanted a D then I should file, I told her I didn't want a D, she told me she just wanted to be separated from me. I just feel like there's still hope for us.
Anyhow, the mission would be a humanitarian one to someplace like India or Africa. I've always wanted to do that and I think it would prove to me that I can be independent and have a very fulfilling life w/out my W. Oh by the way, I also sent out an email to the director of a cultural center to see if they needed any volunteers to help w/their program.
CR
P.S. Sorry about the gift!
Hang in there crafidi!
Good for you for considering doing something that you have always wanted to do and reaching out to do things you are interested in. You have to continue thinking about yourself right now and not focus on W. Sounds like she is confused. Isn't that supposed to be a good thing? The hardest part is that their confusion adds to our confusion.
K