First Thread. Second Thread. Third Thread. Fourth Thread. Fifth Thread. Last Thread. Winner At A Losing Game
Rascal Flats
Baby, look here at me
Have you ever seen me this way?
I've been fumblin' for words
Through the tears and the hurt and the pain.
I'm gonna lay it all out
On the line tonight.
And I think that it's time
To tell this uphill fight goodbye.
Have you ever had to love someone
That just don't feel the same?
Tryin' to make somebody care for you
The way I do
Is like tryin' to catch the rain.
And if love is really forever,
I'm a winner at a losin' game.
I know that baby, you've tried
To find me somewhere inside of you.
But, you know you can't lie
Girl, you can't hide the truth.
Sometimes two hearts
Just can't dance to the same beat.
So I'll pack up my things,
And I'll take what remains of me.
Have you ever had to love someone
That just don't feel the same?
Tryin' to make somebody care for you
The way I do
Is like tryin' to catch the rain.
And if love is really forever,
I'm a winner at a losin' game.
I know that I'll never be the man that you need or love
Yeah, baby it's killin' me to stand here and see
I'm not what you've been dreamin' of
Have you ever had to love someone
That just don't feel the same?
Tryin' to make somebody care for you
The way I do
------------------
Another thread locked.
Shame on you NC.....you are being human.
Guilty as charged. All too human.
And thanks, Karen. I realize that my W just doesn't want me to have somehow salvaged myself. She does not want to believe or look at the evidence before her that I have not only been changing and growing, but for the better. She does not ever want to concede the possibility she was wrong about me.
Hi nocodes.. great song...
Hope your ok today...
Hi, Tal,
I am okay today. I miss my S's, but I know how to get along as a lone individual, like riding a bicycle, for a little while at least.
I passed the 350 day mark yesterday. I held the email reminder from going out to W. She purposely takes it the wrong way anyway -- she takes it is a reminder not so much of my faithfulness to the M, but her unfaithfulness. I guess that's all my fault too -- whatever.
I am coming up on the one-year mark very quickly. There was a point in earlier months when I entertained the idea of renewing a courtship of W. But it is painfully clear she fully intends to maintain this active hostility against me, forever if she can. She won't so much as open the door even a peep. I could cure cancer and become humanitarian of the year but she will always refuse to see me for who I really am and will not acknowledge my changes.
I consider that to be her loss. (It's just too bad for my S's they too suffer this loss as a result of her self-induced blindness.)
But it is painfully clear she fully intends to maintain this active hostility against me, forever if she can. She won't so much as open the door even a peep. I could cure cancer and become humanitarian of the year but she will always refuse to see me for who I really am and will not acknowledge my changes.
I consider that to be her loss. (It's just too bad for my S's they too suffer this loss as a result of her self-induced blindness.)
I think she does see your changes most likely but it doesn't matter because this is all about
her. You know I went through a guilty period where I felt a lot of the problems were my fault. But then I realized I've made all the changes H wanted plus more, H acknowledges the changes, but he still is with the OW and not interested in the marriage. He's gone b/c he wanted to lead a single life, have a girlfriend, less responsibilities, mid-life crisis and whatever.
I do think it is their loss b/c we are such wonderful people
and eventually they will probably realize they are making a big mistake but we might not care by then!!!
Karen
nocodes,
I know you miss them, I can feel that in your post, im so sorry. I would be a insane if I couldn't see my boys all the time. and yours are so young like mine.
It is her loss, and it will be too late before she realizes that. I just hope that there is miracle out there for you.
This doesn't have to anything to do with you, I think she just likes to blame you, this is about her, she is the messed up one, who has to live with herself.
and the kids will suffer for it. Just be the dad I already know you are
I have been pondering a very disturbing development with W that occurred on Saturday. So many things have been happening the last few days that it got glossed over, but I have mentioned it to friends and confidants.
This may seem like a nit I'm picking, but when I called Saturday morning to talk to our S's, as normal, they told me that "Mommy" was taking them
fishing -- they were taking my call on the road to a local state park with a lake for the purpose of going fishing.
I touched on this briefly
here and
here in the DB forums. Basically, I tried to start some father-son activities with my S's last summer, including camping and fishing -- and after having applauded my efforts at first, W began to criticize me and to resist our outings. It came to a head when I took the boys fishing last Labor Day weekend and W had a major conniption fit when she couldn't get a hold of us via cellphone. Some of you will also recall that W has also objected to my plans to begin camping with them on the pretense they're "too young" and can't be kept under control by one lone parent. She argued from the standpoint of child safety, to which I have acquiesced for the sake of peace. I told myself our S's will be old enough to go with me on camping/fishing trips sooner than we realize. Since then W has more than once criticized me for purchasing a tent and a whole bunch of camping equipment when I can't use them with our S's right now (she has become quite accomplished now at being --
pardon the expression -- a b*tch.)
So, I am just stunned upon hearing W was taking our boys on a fishing trip, and without consulting with me first. But if that wasn't hypocritical enough, she then had the unmitigated gall to ask me, at the end of the conversation, about the possibility of "borrowing" my tent and camping gear so
she can take our S's camping some time!
I said nothing -- I
couldn't, I was so shocked -- and committed to nothing, refusing to even acknowledge what she had just said. If she was
baiting me, I was not going there. I could not/can not believe the audacity and total mental disconnect she has been exhibiting.
By commandeering some of my "Daddy role" activities with my S's, I see W's actions as attempts to
replace me as their father. While W may
say one thing to me about how she would "never" undermine me in my role as father to my S's, her
actions speak much louder to the contrary. Even if she never remarries or brings the OM (or some OM) into blatantly replacing me as their father, the message she's sending to our S's is that
I am not necessary for that role in their lives.
Am I overreacting?
So, I am just stunned upon hearing W was taking our boys on a fishing trip, and without consulting with me first. But if that wasn't hypocritical enough, she then had the unmitigated gall to ask me, at the end of the conversation, about the possibility of "borrowing" my tent and camping gear so she can take our S's camping some time!
I said nothing -- I couldn't, I was so shocked -- and committed to nothing, refusing to even acknowledge what she had just said. If she was baiting me, I was not going there. I could not/can not believe the audacity and total mental disconnect she has been exhibiting.
By commandeering some of my "Daddy role" activities with my S's, I see W's actions as attempts to replace me as their father. While W may say one thing to me about how she would "never" undermine me in my role as father to my S's, her actions speak much louder to the contrary. Even if she never remarries or brings the OM (or some OM) into blatantly replacing me as their father, the message she's sending to our S's is that I am not necessary for that role in their lives.
Am I overreacting?
No I don't think you are overreacting and can see why you would be upset! I think you handled it really well by not letting her bait you (which I have to believe she is either not bright or was trying to bait you). It does seem hypocritical behavior when she is doing the same stuff (fishing) that she criticized you for.
I had asked my C today if my spouse could have mental problems he is so critical, controlling, and full of anger often. And I'm sorry but you know Nocode I often think your spouse is a lot like mine! I def. think mine is in MLC and maybe she is too, and I have to believe it is that which maybe has made them seem kind of crazy sometimes. (My H just has started realizing he will have less money after the divorce b/c he had thought for some reason he would have more money even though we will have twice the expenses?)
I am surprised that she took your S's on a trip without asking you or telling you or whatever. I guess you will have to work that out with your W if you want to be informed, as I would think she would want to know when you are going on trips. Or you can keep each other both in the dark I guess about these things. If she refuses to notify you about her trips I don't think I would reciprocate by keeping her informed about your trips. I guess I'm petty or whatever though!!!
I think maybe you should just look at this as a positive?
You wanted to go fishing & camping with your S's and now obviously your W thinks it is OK by her words & actions. So I would not lend her your camping equipment & instead use it to take your S's camping and fishing!!!
Karen
I continue to wonder why she is so passive aggressive. The whole fishing thing makes me very ill. How dare she 'one up' you in this regard. I am very sorry nocode. No good will come from confronting her about this, even though I believe your anger is fully justified. She has proven in the past there is no logical reasoning/discussion when it comes to this.
But...guess what? She just gave you the green light to take your boys camping/fishing. If she can do it, you can do it!! Make the plans now!
Hypothetical questions here ... does she think she's better qualified to take them camping or does she think she's the more responsible parent? Or both?
Either way, this is extremely hypocritical of her. Sounds like she wants to be in control, at all times or at least have the upper hand.
It's great that you kept your cool about it though. I know you've been struggling with that. Treat her as you would any Tom, Dick or Harriet at the office ... with professionalism and diplomacy.
Back to the camping... I don't think your S7 is too young. S3 may be (depends on where you go) but certainly not for a camping trip in the backyard! Pitch the tent for a night out at home when it gets warmer!
Thanks, Joie, Lwb,
Hypothetical questions here ... does she think she's better qualified to take them camping or does she think she's the more responsible parent? Or both?
Both. But she's deluding herself.
I do see it as a "green-light" to my original plans. S3 must have really matured in just a year's time, right?
Our church is inviting families on a camping trip around Memorial Day weekend -- that might offer the best time to try the boys out. W has just precipitated that which she had serious reservations about just this last Fall.
On another note, the mediator sent each of us a rough draft of the Separation Agreement (SA) she has been working on. Sadly, it did not surprise me that the wording was not what I would have liked to have seen. I have read a
lot of SA examples and samples in the last month, so I've seen a wide gamut of terms and verbage. W's mediator is preparing a document with wording along the lines I feared she would -- pro-divorce oriented and anti-family, anti-father. The tone of the document is definitely weighted in favor of a wife who wants to divorce her husband. But I would be less concerned with the "form" of the document if it didn't also lack for the right "substance". I don't like the wording about the custody, and I still insist on 50-50 joint and physical custody.
The only good thing I saw in the mediator's version of the SA is that she did not use the word "visitation", like W has repeatedly.
Still, as it stands, I cannot accept this document or this agreement. I am debating now how to break the news to the both of them. I would like to talk to my L first, but I cannot get scheduled before the week after next.
Still, as it stands, I cannot accept this document or this agreement. I am debating now how to break the news to the both of them. I would like to talk to my L first, but I cannot get scheduled before the week after next.
Well, can't you just say that you need your L to look at any document including this one before you sign (even if it is in a week or two)? I think that is pretty standard procedure. It sounds like from what you say that your L will not approve, and then you can tell them that? Karen
nocodes,
She is really munipulative! holy cow, this is not someone who deserves an H like you.
I would not accept the doc. either. karen has a good excuse to by you some time.
Hang in there, and definately take them fishing... green light!
Thanks, Karen, Tal,
(Sorry, Karen, I did not mean to forget to thank you also for your previous comment.)
Using the L as my alibi for delaying a response is a good idea. However, W and the mediator are supposed to be under the impression neither of us has our own L yet, having forgone that to enter voluntary mediation. I'm not too worried about it however, since their casual dismissal of my interests is precipitating my seeking personal counsel anyway.
FYI, at the suggestion of a friend of mine, I joined the ACFC yesterday (American Coalition of Fathers & Children, an advocacy group for fairness in family courts.
http://www.acfc.org)
nocodes,
Thats great you joined tht group. Hopefully they can give you some insite and provide you with some support.
Besides us.
Tal, we all need as much support as we can muster, but an advocacy group can never replace the kind of support our DB family provides us.
I am thankful to all of you.
I know this board is great... we have many friends here, This is really the only support system I have other than one friend that I don't like to bombard all the time.
Hope you have a good wkend.
Hi Nocode-
I've been lurking on your thread. You sent me hugs on mine & I just wanted to say thanks & send some back....((((HUGS)))).
-Sue
Tal, we all need as much support as we can muster, but an advocacy group can never replace the kind of support our DB family provides us.
I am thankful to all of you.
I'm thankful to everybody too! Often my C just tells me what I've already heard from someone or several people on here! The people here are as good (or better) than professional therapists--they just don't get paid
!!! Karen
Karen
nocodes,
how goes it today?
Hi, Tal,
I am coming off a bit of a depressive low today. Last evening was a bit of an irrational downer for me. After planning all week to go to my friend, M's, baptism last evening, in the end I got the time wrong by an hour -- instead of showing up 20 minutes early, my S's and I were shocked to find we were really 40 minutes too late.
Couple that with the rough afternoon (weekend) I had trying to get my two boys to mind me, and I feel like such a failure.
The absent-minded stupidity of missing the baptism after planning it for months now is so discouraging -- that should have been something only the "old me" would have done. That is supposed to be something I have overcome. Driving home I got so despondent thinking about how I could have made so stpid a mistake, and how I don't seem to be able to keep my two hyperactive boys under reasonable control.
Part of me just wants to run away (I know I can't and won't). I began wondering whether I was really fit to be someone's father or not. Am I just kidding myself? Maybe S7 and S3 would be better off without me?
Part of me just wants to run away (I know I can't and won't). I began wondering whether I was really fit to be someone's father or not. Am I just kidding myself? Maybe S7 and S3 would be better off without me?
NoCode- I'm going to tell you what Rob told me last week. STOP! You are a good father and your children are not better off without you. You had a bad couple of days. The sun will shine for you again. Trust me NoCode, I completely understand the feeling of wanting to run away. I've been very down myself lately and have wanted to just let go. I won't though. My D4 is much to precious to me and I know that one way or another, I will be okay.
As Bruce Springsteen says in "Lonesome Day".....
Thy kingdom come, Im gonna find my way Yeah, through this lonesome dayWe're here for you. You'll get through this. We all slip and slide down a little. Please know that you're a good man and a good father. Your kids love you......hey, they're kids and they'll have days that they won't mind. You'll be okay.
Smile, okay.
SueS
Oh, yes, they would definitely be better off with your W instead of you!
Of course not!
Missing the wedding by less than an hour doesn't sound so bad to me. Not a wedding, but we were trying to go to some fun activity one Saturday and I had us all show up one WEEK early! Oops! Maybe I shouldn't be a mom either do you think??? I just had to laugh at myself!!!
I know it had to be
so upsetting though to miss the baptism, but I think you will never be late for anything like that! I try to look at mistakes as learning experiences (like when I messed up in the play & forgot my words and didn't say anything for about 30 seconds (but it seemed like 30 hours). Well, I won't do that again (I won't)!!! You shouldn't be so hard on yourself when you make mistakes--that's one thing I've learned with time I guess. I know I read in one of the DR or DB or Change your Life books that everyone will have setbacks and something like 2 or 3 steps forward, one back or something like that, but the point being that you are still making progress even if you aren't always perfect?
You know, I have kids that are hyperactive with SI too, and it's not easy sometimes, but we all have those moments where are kids are a bit out of control. I think that is cool that you appreciate how hard parenting kids can be--my H has never appreciated my taking care of the kids or homeschooling them you know--and I think that is great that you know how challenging it can be sometimes, but of course also they can be the greatest, coolest kids too!
I think they are mad at their dad lately, but have really been showing me the love (I guess b/c they realize I am the stable parent that will always be there for them or something like that.) I'm sure it won't last, but I'm enjoying it for the moment anyway.
One side effect of my H moving out besides the peace and less craziness, is that the kids and I have really grown close, and I think you will always have a special bond with your kids too also.
nc,
Don't make me come over there and hurt you
You are aloud to make mistakes.. let me tell you every parent does, and you messing up the time.. you have ALOT on your mind, sometimes we are all lucky we remember to eat... Kids are kids, mine are very active and yes most of the time they don't listen.. don't feel bad about that, it is what it is.. sometimes they don't listen, it happens to everybody.. doesn't make us bad parents.
NO NO NO... they are NOT better off without you.. they need you , you're their father, don't forget it.
Chin up or I will have to whip you (I'll have to borrow saffies though!)
Sue, Karen, Tal, all, thanks.
I just have to face that I still have a long way to go. I am still prone to making mistakes and out-right bone-headed gaffs, even when I think I am focused on the task at hand.
As for my S's, I wonder sometimes if my need to be in their lives is really for the right reasons. Am I doing it for them or for me? I know they love me, and they do need their father. But am I being selfish in seeking to claim 50-percent of their time and custody, when they are obviously more comfortable with their mother? Or when they don't show me enough respect? (Sometimes I get the feeling they think of me as a camp counselor or something , rather than their parent.)
I don't expect to be perfect, but I often wonder if I am even adequate for the task. I just want the best for S7 and S3, and I fall short of that.
I will just try to do my best.
I just have to face that I still have a long way to go. I am still prone to making mistakes and out-right bone-headed gaffs, even when I think I am focused on the task at hand.
As for my S's, I wonder sometimes if my need to be in their lives is really for the right reasons. Am I doing it for them or for me?
That reminds me of something my C said recently. I was telling her my memory wasn't as good as it used to be, and she was saying when you are experiencing stress (like you and I are doing) that your memory is not as good. And then I think you are putting more stress on yourself by trying to be perfect or whatever.
If you are like me, you need to be involved with your kids for both reasons. I enjoy being with them and love them, but I also think it is good for both parents to be involved as much as possible with them. I want at least 50% with my children, too!
Karen
nocode, Karen is so right about messing up the time. I have done that more than once, totally normal.
Camp counselor? Are you kidding me? You are D A D. Nothing will change that. Yes, I agree, kids get/need different things from each parent, but your kids are the good kids they are today because of input/love from you and your wife. Its ok if you feel you are in their life for you, heck, I need my kids so much right now to keep me going. I suppose in a way I use them to keep going. You can 'lean' on your kids like that. Wouldn't you agree that your bond with your sons have become stronger since this mess happened?
Okay. I know I need to gain a little perspective. Thanks, everyone. Like I said, I just need to continue to try to do my best. Regardless of what may come.
-----
W called me yesterday as I was leaving work (early) to go pick up our S's from school/preschool. She said she was in the area where S3's preschool is and wanted know if I "needed" her to pick up S3 herself and take him to the house to wait for me. Impatient little wench she be. I told her "No, thank you." I know she's just trying to horn in on my custody time.
She also told me she had gotten some IMAX theater tickets to the opening of Speed Racer for her and the boys. W has had a long time crush on the title character since the old anime series. We bought the DVD collection years ago before S3 was born and S7 was little, mostly for W's nostalgia. Lately, they dug out those old series and have been playing them over and over.
So, I know this was something special for W and our S's. When she said I could tell them the news, I told her I would let her do that. I did tell my S's that whenever their mother would call that evening she would have a surprise to tell them about, but I didn't elaborate. And when she did call later and she got to tell them, I cheered right along with my S's for the thrill at knowing they're going to see something they've been looking forward to.
Yeah, I'm a little jealous. But I am not gong to steal this moment from W, even if I could never trust her to do the same, because I love my kids and want them to love their mother. Her attitude and behavior are not befitting for the mother of my children, but this is not about her, it's about them.
-----
Oh, I have an appointment with the L on Tuesday. It's sort of ironic in that day marks day 365, one year, for me. I never would have dreamed then that not only would that day would be our last, but that a year later I would still be celibate ...and going to see a L.
Time for an update.
I had my S's through Wednesday morning, dropping them off at their respective schools/track-out camp. W picked them up afterwards in the afternoon. I ran an extra half-hour late that morning (on top of the normal lateness due to this unusual schedule when I have the children) because S7 insisted on sleeping late and dragging his feet more than usual (I think he's practicing to be a teenager already.)
Because of this, I had to work that much later beyond my normal time. Also I was unable to drop off S's nighttime sleeping companions / plush animal toys before bedtime. For this W left me some nasty voicemails. She said I was being thoughtless and selfish, having no thought of our S's needs. She claimed I was using this as an excuse to enter the house after bedtime hours and disrupt the household. This she left on my cellphone's voicemail.
She insisted that I drop the bag with the animals on the stoop of the house without ringing the doorbell, knocking or otherwise seeking entrance, but just to leave the items quietly and to go away, like some criminal or something.
When I got home I found she had left another voicemail on the answering system. She said that S7 had a horrible day at track-out camp, all because I neglected to pack him a pair of his swim trunks and a towel. S7 was the only one who was left out of the Y's "Beach Day" activities because of me.
On the weekend prior to this event I had already inquired with S7 about whether we needed to recover the swimtrunks from the house, since W had herself neglected to return the only pair I had bought for him. S7 had said no -- he insisted that he had already told me previously that there would be no more swimming during this track-out session because the Y was readying the pool for the summer season. So I did not bother to return to the house to get the trunks.
I replied to W in an email about these accusations. I explained to her that she was jumping to conclusions about what she perceived to be my thoughts and motivations concerning these circumstances, how she was assuming the worst with no foundation. To my surprise she apologized somewhat, but that didn't keep her from continuing to attack me, later saying it is all my fault she perceives me so negatively.
When she ended up reversing her pseudo-apology and began to take another tact at painting me as a bad father, I told her she was being rude and was completely out of line.
Prior to all this I had gone to a craft store with my two S's to gather the materials to make their own Mother's Day cards for W. We spent Tuesday evening cutting paper, drawing pictures, glueing scrapbook pieces and placing stickers on hand-made greeting cards from each of my two boys.They did a wonderful job, even S3 (although he had far too much fun using his new safety scissors to turn a piece of colored cardstock into confetti.)
I dropped these cards off along with the bedtime animals.
Jump forward to Saturday night, I decided to call W to see if she might be interested in dinner after the 11 AM church service with me and our S's, my treat, to celebrate Mother's Day. I fully expected W to decline, but thought maybe she might see this as intended, as a demonstration of good will before our children. Unfortunately, not only did she decline but W shouted her answer, "NO!" Surprised at her vehemence, I asked her to clarify. Again she said, "NOOO!" She then said that she fully intended to enjoy her time with our S's on Mother's Day, but that spending any time with me was not enjoyable.
I said fine, and that I at least made the offer.
Yes, it did hurt. There as no need for her to be so nasty. She could have had the grace and courtesy to decline politely, which is what any civil, rational human being would have done. But I am not dealing with a civil or rational person here.
Well, if her ulterior motive is to get me to hate her, she is doing an extremely good job. However, I refuse to allow the bitterness she instills to get the better of me. I refuse to hate her -- I will and do hate her actions with an unabiding passion, but as a follower of Jesus Christ, I refuse to hate the person. I still love her on a basic level, agape love.
But the love of her as a spouse and soul-partner is just about gone. I seriously doubt she'll ever give us a chance to rebuild that. Her loss.
I will channel my anger, not into bitterness, but into (1) sorrow for the death of this M, (2) the drive to GAL and improve my life, and (3, most of all) the determination to do what is best for me and for my S's. I am praying to the Lord constantly to keep the root of bitterness from my heart.
Today I see my attorney to discuss this sham of a Separation Agreement (SA) that W and the (her) mediator are drafting -- and to plan a line of argument to question why I am not due at least 50% custody of my children. I have been fighting a losing battle against W and the mediator on this, they just don't hear me. I absolutely will not tolerate being dismissed out of hand without proper justification of their stance. I really hoped we would not be dragged into this costly battle, but this is where W is taking us.
I will channel my anger, not into bitterness, but into (1) sorrow for the death of this M, (2) the drive to GAL and improve my life, and (3, most of all) the determination to do what is best for me and for my S's. I am praying to the Lord constantly to keep the root of bitterness from my heart.
Hi, NoCode! You know I've always thought your sitch was a lot like mine and you even seem to be going through some of the same thoughts as me lately. I still love my H, but don't like him b/c of his actions kind of thinking. I was depressed yesterday thinking about having to deal with him for the next 10 years until the kids are grown--dealing with a critical, negative, manipulative, controlling (have I left anything out?
) person. One thing that makes me feel better for some reason is that it is hard for me to deal with just a few minutes each day with H's negativity, but how hard it must be for him to have to live with himself all day! I prefer to live positively, allow people to make mistakes without freaking out as my H and your W does. It must be hard to live lives like they do I would imagine! And what must they think of themselves if they are critical of us?
I had a down day yesterday, think I was tired b/c I didn't sleep much the night before, and my D8 and I slept an extra hour this morning and I feel so much better. I haven't been exercising as much lately and I want to step that up, during the play I was excersizing probably a dozen hours a week and felt so good! Now I'm down to an hour or 2, so I want to double that I think.
My sil is always saying how great mediation is, and I think it is too, but from what I've read in several places, you have to have 2 fairly agreeable people that are willing to compromise and I don't know that your W qualifies. It is a shame, but what can you do? I'm sure I will be going through that as well with my difficult H. I hope you can be positive and not get bitter, I work on this every day too!
Karen
Thanks, Karen. Thanks, Yoyo.
My L had to postpone our appointment today. We'll try again tomorrow. One more day to contemplate this costly venture.
W called me at work this afternoon, asked me if I could pick up S7 since she was running late due to traffic. I agreed to, but before I got there W called back to say she would get S7 instead since she managed to circumvent the traffic jam after all. I told her that was good since the south-bound lanes I needed to take to reach S7 were certainly backed up for miles. She said thanks, but no thanks, she had it in hand again.
Okay, so I am such a "terrible" father, but I am useful enough to be called at the last minute from work to go pick our son up ? Whatever.
Okay, so I am such a "terrible" father, but I am useful enough to be called at the last minute from work to go pick our son up ? Whatever.
Did you see on Snow's thread, GF was calling this kind of behavior "nitpicking"? Snow's H and my H do it also. I thought it was interesting and her theory behind it. I would repeat it but I wouldn't do as good of a job writing about it as she did!
Karen
I saw GF's post, thanks, Karen.
I saw the L today. L had to postpone yesterday due to a court case being moved.
Yesterday made day 365, one year.
Sorry about your 'anniversary'. ugh
Ok, nocode, time to back away from W. Give her space to make herself miserable instead of you. You can't do anything right. She says this, but she knows differently. She has to make you the enemy to justify her behavior. I truly believe her cruelty towards you will soften as time goes on.
You don't deserve it. You are amazing in your Daddy role. Beyond.
Fight for all the time with the kids. Fight.
HUGS
Ok, nocode, time to back away from W. Give her space to make herself miserable instead of you. You can't do anything right. She says this, but she knows differently. She has to make you the enemy to justify her behavior. I truly believe her cruelty towards you will soften as time goes on.
Hi Nocode! I agree with everything LWB said. I was reading in a library book yesterday something on "How to influence people" or something like that, that people will often not like someone they have hurt or are hurting, because if they didn't do that they would have to see themselves as bad people or whatever. I really see my H trying to do that constantly, just trying to pick fights or arguments a lot, and trying to get me upset, b/c I think it's much easier for them when we are fighting to do the kind of bad behaviors they are doing.
I really believe that, so try not to take what H says seriously (although I'm not always successful of course
) b/c I understand what he is trying to do to make it easier to live with himself! I kind of think that no matter how hard H tries, he's gotta be feeling like a jerk and will continue to do so. I think your W is kind of doing the same thing, and in time will probably realize it more and more. Karen
nocodes...
Following along... sending some *hugs* your way...
tal
No Codes, Karen. This is the whole gist of the marital rewrite waywards go through. Because if the marriage was good, how can they reconcile what they have done? Because if the marriage was good (or even Ok), that would mean THEY are the one's who F'd up, and we all know, waywards don't do that, it's everyone else's fault. They try to pick fights with you to confirm how they've come to view the marriage.
The trick is to not play the game. It's hard, trust me I know, but even if you marriage doesn't work, at least we'll be able to look ourselves in the mirror and LIKE who we see looking back.
LWB nailed it again, I think. She has to make you the enemy -- which makes it incredibly hard for you. You're damned if you do, damned if you don't.
A belated thanks for the Mother's Day wishes. That was really thoughtful. It's a busy, busy time of year for me. Haven't been around here much.
I am grateful for all of you. I appreciate your advice and sharing.
Sunday presents another major milestone. It marks the 18th anniversary of W and my first date with each other. It also marks the 17th anniversary of when I proposed to W, exactly one year later.
For many, many months now I had entertained the thought/dream of renewing the relationship with W by asking her out on an anniversary date and proposing we renew our vows. I have since become so discouraged by W's strong persistence in maintaining and furthering the vast gulf now between us, such that I am almost welcoming her filing for D.
In fact, I am confident that W will file on July 7, the very first moment she can legally do so in this state. So my dream is nothing but, now a passing thought.
<journaling>
Wednesday morning I talked to S7 and he expressed the desire to come stay with me that evening. But I soon realized it was for more ulterior motives. First he mentioned the Lego Mindstorms kit we had acquired of late, which will stay in my residence. I see this as S7 seeking another fancy new toy. Second, W explained that he and she had butted heads over homework assignments the previous evenings, but S7 kept saying he would rather see his father and that 9 days apart is too long. W took this "9 days" thing as something I "planted' in S7's mind. She also said that S7 "knows" which parent lets him get off easy and not complete his homework.
I told the both of them that I am always happy to take S7 or his brother, but I warned them both that I was going to stipulate that the homework assignments were going to be completed first or else there would be no "fun" activities. Incredulous of me, as always, W agreed to give me a try.
I picked up S7 after school, took him back to my apartment, and instructed him on completing at least two night's worth of homework (jumping ahead in the homework schedule.) I then prepared dinner, we ate, and then for the last 30 minutes or so of S7's visit we looked at the robot project we began in the Mindstorms kit. Finally I drove S7 back to the house in time for his bath and bedtime.
W actually seemed slightly pleased. She took advantage of me having S7 by spending extra one-on-one time with S3.
----
Yesterday, Thursday, W asked me again to be on standby in case she was unable to pick up our S's on time. And again, she made it on time without needing my assistance.
Wow, as I read your thread about how you are cooperating with your W I wonder how you do it? Figuring out how to "share" our children is one of my biggest worries about my S. My H left for OW less than 2 months ago and moved 9 hours away. He wants to see his sons (14 & 16) but only complains about how expensive it is to have to drive so far. He tried to get me to drop them off for him (out of the way) on a different trip we were on a few weeks ago (it didn't work for other reasons) and now he wants to send them on the bus (the nearest station to me is 2 hours away.) I think he should stop thinking only about himself and his convenience. He has seen them twice since he left home. I am getting very bitter about him complicating our lives this way. I also don't really want them to see where he is and who he is with, but I know I have to get over that. How do you release your children into the care of a parent you think is being such a poor model and making such poor choices in his life?
Lise, your sitch certainly puts things in perspective. I don't know what I would do if my W decided (decides) to put some distance between us such that seeing my children, let alone sharing custody of them, would be a near impossible ordeal.
On how do you do it, I have a friend who asks herself that question all the time, and her STBXH is a substance abuser. She puts a lot of faith in God that the brief time her 18-month old visits with daddy that nothing bad happens. It's still always very painful and anxious for her, but I find her patience in the face of this quite remarkable.
On how do you do it, I have a friend who asks herself that question all the time, and her STBXH is a substance abuser. She puts a lot of faith in God that the brief time her 18-month old visits with daddy that nothing bad happens.
NoCode, that's kind of scary-leaving an 18 month old with a substance abuser. Has she talked to an attorney about that at all? I would think if the courts knew about that I would hope they would want supervised visitation or something like that???
I believe in the power of God too, but I don't think he minds when we help out, too!
Karen
Karen, I agree. So does my friend. But the circumstances are that she has no choice. Her STBX is from a very wealthy family, with loads of legal resources to bring to bear and willing to fund a long, drawn-out litigious arms race in the courtroom. The H claims to be "recovering" and has managed to eek out an every-other-weekend parenting schedule.
Given how things have been stacked against her in the courts, she has decided to make the best of a situation she cannot control. What else can she do? She's already blown the equivalence of 90,000 dollars trying to keep her and her child's lives sane, all to little gain. Now her best tact is to make as much peace for her son as she possibly can. The rest she can only leave to God.
nocode, W couldn't find anything wrong with how you handled S7, plus she used you for a possible back up again. Killing her with kindness and being agreeable.
I am sorry about your thoughts re: your recent anniversary. Last spring, I remember hoping that on our 10 yr wedding anniversary (5/1) we would be on a 'reconciling vacation'.
Hope you had a nice weekend.
Did I read that right? That you go NINE days without seeing your sons? That breaks my heart.
Hi, Lwb,
You have that right -- under the current version of our parenting schedule, I get the kids 5 days every two weeks to W's 9 days. That's why I wrote W the following letter last night (early AM):
W,
It is time I told you what's been on my mind. The mediation is just not working. I knew before I walked out of the previous session, but I have slept on this and thought about it ever since.
I do not have faith that the mediator you've hired is practicing true impartiality, or is looking out for my interests to the same obvious degree she is looking out for yours. And I have tried to be as open and accommodating as possible, but one can only bend so much.
As such, I am calling it off. I'm not interested in what is this same old song and dance you've been doing since last June. Which is to grant you full control over the entire situation. You refuse to hear me or my terms.
I will remind you that I told you even before going into the first session that anything less than 50-50 custody would be a deal-breaker for me.
I figure we have three options (there may be more.)
(1) We start all over on the voluntary mediation. Even hire a new mediator. I won't accept any mediator who dismisses out-of-hand my terms for at least 50-percent custody without so much as hearing me out, or providing adequate legal, logical and moral justifications. <mediator> has been given more than sufficient time but has failed to show she is so unbiased.
(2) Each of us hires our own attorney under a Collaborative Law agreement. There's no judge or jury, just four people around a table to hammer this separation agreement out. Your lawyer is there to represent your interests; my lawyer is there to represent mine. Obviously more costly than voluntary mediation since it involves two lawyers, instead on one. But is far, far cheaper than a court battle, and takes far less time.
(3) We go to court. We each blow tens of thousands of dollars, spend countless hours in litigation, and destroy whatever peace might have been possible between us, not to mention the financial futures of each of us and of S7 and S3.
I am ready for whatever, come what may.
...
On another note, it is now May 18th -- Happy Anniversary, of sorts. I am so sorry it has come to this. It didn't have to be this way.
The "anniversary" I refer to is that of our first date (which is also the anniversary of the day I asked her to marry me).
When W called this evening, I mentioned to her that I had sent her an email (with this text). She said she had not had a chance to read her email yet. I didn't say it, but I could have told W that I knew already that she hadn't had a chance to read my email, because I had been by the house earlier today and noted the telltale evidence that she had never come home at all last night, again.
I wished her "Happy Anniversary" and started to say goodbye, but she paused and said something to the effect that I never said anything last year about the anniversary of our first date. I started to raise a counter-argument, but she was obviously winding up for a pitched verbal battle. So, while the volume of her voice began to rise, I merely hung up before she could go any further.
W called back a minute later, saying that that was rude and then we each said good-bye.
I mentioned the "anniversary" for no other reason than if I had not she would have counted that as a negative as well. At least by saying
something in acknowledgment of this date my conscious is truly clear.
Time for another update.
I got no reply all week from W to my email. She did "reply" to it in an email regarding the same subject title, but it did not even address the contents of what I wrote -- she merely asked what I was planning to do once my lease runs out in this apartment next month.
But I got another email later this week from the mediator W hired. It was sent in reply to what W had sent her, and I was being copied. W had asked the mediator for the final copy of the Separation Agreement (SA) she had been preparing and to ask the mediator, this female attorney she found to act as our mediator, whether she would now represent W as her personal legal counsel.
So not only do I find this mediator is biased, but W has felt comfortable enough in how this lawyer was giving her all the benefits of a doubt that W would hire her as her attorney. Priceless.
The so-called mediator did have enough integrity to copy me on her reply to W, which was to tell W that she could not represent her unless I was willing to waive any complaint of conflict of interest.
On that, I'm not inclined.
It's now been several days, and still no official response from W on my email. I will be sending a follow-up message with a deadline for her to respond. I am not going to stall much longer before I take her silence to mean she is taking the least favorable, extreme option (a court battle).
----
On another note. W announced last evening when I called our S's that she had bought a tent and they were camping out in the backyard of our house last night. She really is a piece of work. (This might not mean much to those of you who haven't followed my thread, but it is significant in my particular sitch.)
Sounds like a frustrating week, Nocode! Sorry to hear that! But the good part is your W is obviously ok with camping/fishing now so have you taken your kids on a trip yet?
Sorry also to hear about your mediator. That sounds like a problem to me. I know you were suspicious of the mediator's impartiality and it sounds like that confirms it. What a shame!
I just noticed today probably again that your W is 43 and my H is also--I have to think they are going through some kind of MLC which makes them crazy. Or has your wife always been like this? I was asking on my thread yesterday (will check later) but I am wondering if they will return to more of a normal personality or this is it--b/c if I knew that I would file for divorce tomorrow (or at least I'd like to think that I would)!
Karen
MLC? Oh, yes. I do think so.
I started to sign up for a camping getaway for this weekend with our church, but this is not the weekend I have custody, so it wouldn't have worked.
Warning: long post ahead.PrefaceI spent several months following D-day and in the subsequent separation still trying to carry out what had been my regular household duties in a house I was no longer living in. This included cleaning, yard work, repairs, etc. I saw this as my duty and just part of the territory as a homeowner since I am still at least half owner of the marital residence -- and I had originally volunteered to move out to allow my S's to continue to live there with their mother (since W was
hellbent on making sure we no longer lived under the same roof anymore.)
Did I get any thanks for this work? No, but then I never received any acknowledgment from W or MIL or anyone else before the bomb either. What
have I gotten? Just scorn -- W complained I was doing this merely to "shame" her, and she also claimed that I was "crowding" her, preventing her from achieving the "space" she demanded from me.
Is it any wonder I eventually stopped?
Likewise, I bought paint and supplies this past Fall to repaint the kitchen, because we were going to have to sell this house some day -- but she and her mother never wanted me to actually come around to actually do the work. They told me they would handle the stripping of the old wallpaper off the walls, then I could come in to handle the painting. And W also wanted to hire a sheet-rock person to fix and patch the walls and celiling, so I had to wait on that too. Eventually W hired a contractor (without consulting with me first) to handle the entire job, including providing the paint and supplies (wasting my original investment in materials).
<journaling>Well, on Sunday I picked up our S's for the Memorial Day observance (so W could work the holiday, or so she claims.) In our garage she started talking to me about all the work it has taken to get our house ready to sell. She was relating all the difficulties in taking care of the lawn and the garden. I turned to her and asked her whether she needed any help. W gave me a nasty retort, saying "
No, not if you're going to throw a fit like you did the last time I asked you to help clean up the house. All I asked you to do was to get some of your useless junk out of here. And you decided to get angry and slam doors."
(That exchange she referred to came about on a Sunday back in January. As described
here . I later apologized for getting angry, but she has held this over me ever since.)
So, because that was a very slanted mischaracterization of what actually happened, I said nothing to W when she brought this back up and proceeded to continue to load up my S's and to leave -- I was not going to give any credence to W's words by responding to them.
But then W sent me an email before I even got back to my apartment:
I can't believe the exchange we just had. I've been striving to get the house ready to sell in addition to the basic chores that have to be done every day while making sure the kids get the attention from me they need & plenty of playtime. I've been doing a great job. S7 has been having great days like Friday was. S3 is potty-trained. The yard looks beautiful. The house is freshly painted inside & well-maintained outside because I made sure the wood trim has been painted when it started to peel & I have Trugreen keeping the grass going despite a severe drought. Yet not one word is mentioned about how nice the yard looks. Not one VOLUNTARY word about helping with mowing or coming on the weekend you have the kids to get rid of your obsolete stuff you haven't missed in almost a year. I mentioned how hard it is getting the house ready to sell all by myself & you say "You need some help?" I look at you in disbelief & can't help but think of the once I asked you to move your 2 extra computers & desks & how you threw a HUGE scary tantrum slamming doors & saying mean things to me & my Mom. No I WILL NOT ask you for help again.
You have said yourself we needed to have downsized & sold this house, so selling the house is not anything I'm doing to hurt you. It needs done, & I'm doing it.
I don't know how to respond, if at all, to this person. There is one thing however, a question that immediately springs to mind, "
Why are you still not happy?"
W has
gotten her space, her precious freedom. I am letting her stand on her own. I am shouldering a lot of additional burdens so she can now get to play the single life with her (not-so) secret boyfriend. I have dropped the rope and am focusing on myself and my sons instead. And yet she
still acts like I am the cause of the misery in her life even now. If/When she gets her greatly desired D, what then will she have to blame on me? Will she continue to make me the scapegoat for all her displeasure with life, even when she will have succeeded in removing me (almost) entirely? There will still be the children between us, but if she thinks she can make herself happy by removing me from their lives (even
if I were to allow it) then she is sadly mistaken.
Nothing satisfies her.
I am asking myself now, why should I suffer such foolishness? Do I really want to be married to someone who has proven so selfish, shallow and prone to a severe lack of moral judgement? Maybe, for my sons' sake I should -- but, then, are my sons
really worth enduring this person she has become? Well,
they are worth it, certainly, even if she proves not be, but how long could I possibly hold up in such an insane situation? How long before depression would ensue yet again and I end up having a complete nervous breakdown?
There is one thing however, a question that immediately springs to mind, "Why are you still not happy?"
Because obviously you are not what's making her unhappy even though she thinks that you are! My H does the exact same thing: blaming me for everything in his life like when he lost his keys or the dog chewed up his cord or things I had absolutely no control over. Because I've come to the realization that you can't look to other people or things (I always focused on a new house would solve our R problems or a new job for H). But you have to make yourself happy and I don't think she's figured that out yet!
Nothing satisfies her.
I am asking myself now, why should I suffer such foolishness? Do I really want to be married to someone who has proven so selfish, shallow and prone to a severe lack of moral judgement? Maybe, for my sons' sake I should -- but, then, are my sons really worth enduring this person she has become? Well, they are worth it, certainly, even if she proves not be, but how long could I possibly hold up in such an insane situation? How long before depression would ensue yet again and I end up having a complete nervous breakdown?
[/quote]
My H is the same way; no matter what I do he finds fault. And I'm a perfectly smart, good person who has tried to make the family happy (same as you). And it sounds like your W is not able to forgive at all; that incident she is mad about was 5 or 6 months ago? Time for her to let go of that! I think the anger is going to eat her up inside if it hasn't already!
I have wondered the exact same thing. I was so depressed & miserable when living with H and the criticizing, name-calling, yelling, nasty comments, etc. I do think I am stronger now and wouldn't allow him to doormat me as much, but how long would it be before that would make me depressed again (as it would anyone I think)???? When I pray about restoring my marriage I always pray "if it be Your Will", and I have to wonder sometimes maybe God isn't granting my prayer b/c that might not be the best thing for me, having H back full-time in my life? Karen
Hi NoCode-
Sorry it's been a while since I've stopped by. I do keep my eyes on your thread though.
Gee, it seems like you just can't win. Come around, do repairs, the lawn...etc. and you're asked not to. Don't do them and you're blasted for that too.
I'm thinking about you & your boys.
Hugs- Sue
My H does those things for me, I don't ask(except this past Sunday) but HE is the walk away spouse! What is up with that...maybe guilt?
You are a good guy nocode.
kat
When I pray about restoring my marriage I always pray "if it be Your Will", and I have to wonder sometimes maybe God isn't granting my prayer b/c that might not be the best thing for me, having H back full-time in my life?
Hi, Karen, you have taken the words right out of my mouth. Though I had pinned my hopes for a long time on an eventual reconciliation, I have come to think that the reason my M is proceeding unerringly towards D is because God knows something I don't. Perhaps because He can see into the heart of W for what it really is, perhaps He is
allowing this M to end, to protect me and to prepare me for a new, more healthy phase of my life.
I've been following your sitch too. I myself need to call a truce with my W about the buying of stuff for the kids. The "arms race" is not only getting costly monetarily, it is giving our children a bad example of materialistic values.
Hugs.
Hi, Sue, I've been thinking about you and your DD too. I am impressed with how you're setting your boundaries and finding your resolve. I think I might have to start calling you, "Lwb, Jr." if you don't mind.
Hugs.
Hi, Kat,
Guilt? Why, I believe so. Either that or there's an epidemic of wheat blight poisoning these people's brains.
Thanks for the kind word.
<journaling>Finally, after some week and a half, W responded to my email letting her know the mediation is not working and outlining three options for proceeding. She wrote:
My name is on the mortgage so I'm actually willing to pay the mortgage & let you just give me a check for child support if you'd rather. Didn't I give you a check for May for $___ for my part of the mortgage? I wish you would cash them so I will know what my bank balance is supposed to be. I don't know what kind of cruel game you are playing now.
By the way. In July a judge will decide on the custody issue. I will present the separation agreement & you can get a lawyer to do you one if you want & argue for you that being with you 7 days & me 7days is in their best interest. I think 5 should be the maximum. I will abide by the judges ruling.
Honestly, your paranoid attitude does nothing to convince me that any of us are better off with you.
I have chuckled at the hypocrisy of the "paranoid" comment. Other than that I haven't made a lot of sense of what she means when she attempts to communicate with me (
How in the world did we get so wildly out-of-synch with each other? We
used to be able to read each other's thoughts.)
But I guess she is opting for the third, more costly option, which is to go into an expensive court battle. She wants to risk going before a judge to make such an important decision. Maybe she doesn't realize that we are
both likely to lose by such a decision.
Sad to say, I guess it's time to let the L do the talking.
[Sad to say, I guess it's time to let the L do the talking.
I think I will go through that too. You know I've read in several books that mediation works out only usually if you have 2 somewhat agreeable people, and I don't think your W qualifies! So if that happens, I think you just have to try to let it roll off your back somewhat, you know something inevitable like death, taxes, and your W going the most expensive legal path!
I think you should let the L do the talking, and try not even discussing legal stuff with your W any more, and if she brings it up then tell her "the L's will handle that" or something like that I mean, my H and I have had some of those discussions too, and do they ever really solve anything? Not with us anyway, and it doesn't sound like in your case. And I've read here, blame the L's for everything, too, if something unpleasant is going to happen or whatever legally, blame your L! They get paid for that I think and they can handle it!!!
I've been trying to do that, too, those legal type discussions are some of our worst disagreements, solve nothing (my C says when we do that we are "pi**ing in the wind"!
And in my case, H is a lawyer too, so I am really a dummy when I do that--although he hasn't been acting very smart lately either I don't think!!!
Karen
You know I've read in several books that mediation works out only usually if you have 2 somewhat agreeable people, and I don't think your W qualifies!
That's another thing you and I can certainly agree on, quite obviously.
<journaling>I had another verbal altercation with W this afternoon. I wish I would remember to record these things. She called to check on S3 this afternoon, but she quickly turned it into an inquisition into why I wasn't cashing her checks. I don't agree with her "interpretation" for what this monthly reimbursement was for. I think she's now trying to make it look like she has been paying me for half the mortgage out of the child support payment, which would mean I am not contributing to one or the other. I told her, no, it was for half the rent for her mother to stay there, which is no longer the case as of March 15.
W now flatly denies this, saying this was never the case -- her mother didn't need to pay any such rent since she was providing "free" daycare. W not only conveniently forgets, but has concocted a whole new history.
To rebut this I reminded W of a conversation she started with me when it came to me asking for the very first payment for her mother's rent. She had suddenly gotten all sulky and asked me, "What would you charge your own mother, say, if she had come to stay with you? Would you charge
your own mother?"
I saw her question for the rhetorical barb it was. I replied, "No, for my mom, in all honesty, I would
not ask her to pay me rent -- but I know darn well she would
insist on doing so anyway."
When I reminded W of this conversation, she actually said, "I don't care." She tried to rehash everything that had transpired regarding her slanted versions of separation agreements, from the mediation and going back to the first week after she dropped the "bomb" on me last June. She again began saying something to the effect, "You sat right there on the couch agreeing with what I was drawing up..."
I told her not to go
there. I told her she
knew I was still in shock from her betrayal when she began this effort to "ramrod" down my throat a document wholly unfavorable to me.
She tried to say by setting things the way she had drafted them that she was just trying to make things "simpler" for me, but I had kept insisting on making it more complicated. I told her thanks, but no thanks.
She then asked what did I want to pay in child support. I told her simply what is
fair. I tried to ask her for all the details of her income so I could calculate a C-S payment using
my own figures. She turned that around by asking me if I ever sent a copy of my new pay stub to the mediator -- no, not since I did not have one myself just yet.
I told her we needed to start completely over in figuring the actual C-S payment, and that I was not interested in anything other than what was fair, even if it meant I paid more than at present. But I don't trust the way she and her mediator went about what was included and what was not in their estimates. She had the audacity to begin to accuse me of trying to control the situation. She launched into a diatribe, to which I threw in was the repeated phrase, "Pot-kettle. Pot-kettle."
This then quickly turned into another of her oft-repeated rants about how for years she paid all the bills, took care of the house, took care of the children and basically ran
everything (while I did nothing else it would seem.) And how I didn't respect her or appreciate her, etc., etc.
Finally at one point, after quietly allowing her to vent her fury all over me, I told her I had had enough, and I announced to her that before I said anything I would later regret I was going to hang up -- which I then did, just as she was opening her mouth yet again for another volley.
NoCode, I have had several arguments like that with my H, too. And the thing is are they productive in any way? If it just leads to bitterness (at least on your W's part) and yelling and fury and all that, what is the point on trying to discuss divorce stuff with your W? Again, I would suggest you tell her that the Ls will handle it or something like that. I just don't think you are going to accomplish anything positive with these kind of discussions, and it's so stressful so why bother? (Please remind me of this advice when I go through this all, too, in case I forget!)
Karen
NC-
A troubling phrase is in your post...."her mecdiator". That really isn't how the mediation thing works. A mediator is neither hers nor yours. They are impartial. If the mediator you are using isn't impartial.....run away.
As far as the CS goes, fair has nothing to do with it. It is a statutory calculation based on percentage of time with each parent and income percentages. If you are doing 50/50 with the kids and your incomes are equal, it is a wash. If you go on line to your state's laws, you should be able to do the exact calculation yourself. I did that so I knewe the figure long before one was proposed.
Karen,
You're absolutely right. I have decided it just gets me nowhere to have these conversations with W, but they sometimes have to be endured as long as the key issues are moved forward (or defended). I just need to do a bit more of what I ended up doing, which is to cut the conversation short when she starts to be disrespectful.
MC,
I use the term "her mediator" for precisely the very reason you state. It is intended to be a sort-of oxymoron. The so-called arbitrator was hired by my W to help referee our hammering out a separation agreement. I gave her (the L) a chance but she gave every concession to my W -- I was on the losing end of every point of contention. So she was not "our" mediator or even "the" mediator but "my W's mediator".
And yes, fair is not really a part of the CS. But then it is. What is fair to W and to me would be what is truly in the best interests of our children. Nothing more, nothing less. However, as you well know, there's a wide degree of leeway in intrepreting just what is fair to our two S's. W's mediator thought that anything that promotes W's interests, even if they are heavily punitive of me, are automatically in the interests of our children. Naturally, I object to that.
By contrast, I have no interest in punishing or crippling my W financially, as that too is not in the best interests of our S's. No, I want what is fair and equitable to both W and myself -- on the very grounds that that is in the true interest of the children. Our S's do not need to have either of their parents suffering unduly under an inequitable settlement.
BTW, I knew of this state's online calculator for CS long before we went into the so-called "mediation". The devil, however, is in the details, as the "mediator" and I were at odds on what could be included for income (for example, she concluded that W's sizable monthly mileage reimbursement was not admissible as a component of W's compensation. My L has said otherwise, and even showed me the citation in the state laws itself.)
(((((nocodes)))))
Thinking of you.
NCB-
Is mediation a required step?
NC,
I'm sorry. It does sound like it is your wife's mediator instead of being impartial. Can you dismiss this mediator and start over?
Hugs, Yoyo
Thanks, everyone.
MC, mediation is not "required", but it happens to be the very first order of business from a judge prior to actual D proceedings.
The "mediation" that W and I entered into earlier this year was voluntary, not court-ordered. W hired the L who acted as mediator and I payed half the $200/hour fees.
Yoyo, I sent W a letter a couple of weeks ago now -- I told her I was done with her so-called mediation given how poorly my interests were treated. I told W in that letter we had but three options (1) hire another mediator (one we both agree we could accept), (2) each hire our own attorney under a Collaborative Law agreement for a four person mediation, or (3) a costly court battle.
W indicated that she'd take option 3 to get a temporary custody order established.
The funny thing is that if we go the litigation route, as I mentioned above, in this state the judge will send you to court-appointed mediation first thing anyway.
Good morning NoCode-
Just stopped by to say I hope you have a good day.
SueS
I got a weird suggestion from W this morning. She suggested that I take S7 and S3 with me to my Bible study tonight and then bring them back to the house tonight thereafter. She said that since I want more time with them this would afford me an additional evening to spend with them, to break up the long stretch between custody of them.
But then in almost the same breath she said she could take a Tuesday evening to break up the long stretch when she doesn't have them (she said Wednesday but she gets that already right now, so she had to mean another night during the week I have custody.)
Cuckoo. Again she defies logic, even her own twisted logic from days before.
First of all, she has long since rejected my proposal that we go to a 2-2-3 parenting schedule (which would be 50-50, by-the-way) since she says that S7 (as a "special-needs child") has problems with transitions and needs as much continuity as possible. 2-2-3 would be too disruptive. She also rejected the mediator's every other weekend and every other Wednesday plan for the same reason. That's why I suggested a 7-7 schedule.
But now she's willing to essentially abrogate that constraint? Why? I ask myself.
I think many of you can guess, just as I have, that she wouldn't be suggesting this alteration for my benefit whatsoever, nor for Liam and Nathan's benefit either. Not for one second. She would never admit anything, but I suspect she is the one who is "suffering" the long stretch of having two hyper-active boys in her custody for nine days straight. More to the point, I think she is realizing the distinct disadvantage of having nearly twice the custody of our sons over me in that she is not free for nine days straight to "see" her boyfriend. She don't like denying herself is what I'm getting at.
So now she wants to make it seem like she's doing me a favor? But then she turns around and tries to nullify it by taking away one of my evenings with them.
Part of me is inclined to agree just to set a precedent that we can introduce more transitions into the equation with little to no ill repercussions. But the other half of me is not sympathetic to her desire to have more frequent contact with her illicit "friend" -- on that I say tough cookies! (I have been celibate for 392 days now -- and she can't go for a simple 9-day stretch?!?)
Part of me is inclined to agree just to set a precedent that we can introduce more transitions into the equation with little to no ill repercussions. But the other half of me is not sympathetic to her desire to have more frequent contact with her illicit "friend" -- on that I say tough cookies! (I have been celibate for 392 days now -- and she can't go for a simple 9-day stretch?!?)
Why should you agree to help her out
and lose your night as well? I think the only way I would agree to that, unless it's something you really want, is if you don't have to give up a night? Then if she really really wants a break you won't have lost anything? Maybe I'm looking at that wrong though, but that's how it looks to me. Plus, I agree it looks to me like your W wants that, but is trying to make it look like she is doing you a favor. She sounds manipulative, and I would want to say no just b/c of that, but if she will agree to do it without taking away your night, then I guess it would be a win-win for both of you?
Karen
NoCode-
Yeah, it doesn't make a lot of sense that she'd offer that day so you could have more time & then want to take a different day away from you. That's a WAS's logic for you though.
I heard a woman talking on the radio today that I found interesting. Her name is Amy Baker & she wrote a book called "Adult Children of Parental Alienation Syndrome: Breaking the Ties that Bind". It's about parents who are alientated by their children because of the other spouse's actions. She said that she gives examples of what you can do when/if you start seeing signs that your ex is trying to alienate you from your child. I promised my H that I would never harm his relationship with D4 and I hope he never does it with me. However, I can see how others just don't care how it affects their children. Unfortunately, my BIL is one of those people. He and my SIL are divorcing. He made a huge scene at their house just last week which made their D7 fall apart and break down in tears. He said some horrible things to her about not being a family anymore & then he ripped apart (verbally) my SIL to D7. My H has a temper, but not in the same way as my BIL. However, that's my #1 reason for wanting peace between H & I.
Have a good one.
SueS
I worry sometimes that your W is trying to alienate you as well, nocode.
I don't have the answer for you. One hand, you could be flexible and switch things around, but one the other hand, why should YOU be flexible when she is the exact opposite. I just don't know, nocode. Am I right that it would give you the opportunity to see them during the long time W has them? At this point in my life, I can't imagine not seeing my girls for even a day, but you are in this a bit deeper with the separation stuff. I worry she is using S7's "special needs" when it works for her, but uses it against you. This would prove he could tolerate a bit more change up.
Thinking of you. Tough decisions. Try (ugh) to make them for your son's benefit, not with your W's probable reasons for wanting the change.
Update:
Wow. I am almost at a loss for words. I talked to W this evening abut her proposal to swap evenings during each of our custody stints. Amazingly, W is willing now to try a 7-7 parenting schedule under the stipulation we can take an evening during each other's week to alleviate the long period without them. She would like to "try" this arrangement.
I said that was very agreeable to me, of course. And though tonight was too short of notice for me as well as the fact that me being in a Bible Study class this particular evening wasn't really much in the way of quality time with our S's, I was willing to take our S's to get a haircut later this week and then to take them swimming. W thought that was a good idea (yeah, since I will pick up the tab for the haircuts.
)
It's a
start. For the first time in over 11 months now, W is willing to take a step in my direction for a change. Miracle of miracles, we actually have a chance at
detente.
I will try to follow up on this in more detail with W. I am not getting my hopes up too much -- I am still very wary and very sensitive to all the hurt I have had to endure. But this is the first real positive sign I've seen that we might be able to call a cease-fire. For my S's I am very encouraged.
We will see.
I am very encouraged too. I think she is realizing how hard it is to 1) be away from them for long periods but also 2) being with them for long periods of time with no break. This could work for everyone, and I am glad you are open to trying it with W.
I pray it goes through. It will open the door to more peaceful compromise.
I really appreciate the prayers, Lwb. I need all I can get.
And I pray for all of us nightly.
I need to mention another thing: I guess I am feeling a little guilty now for having thought the worst about W's motives earlier -- but
only a little... since all I have seen of W in the last year has been her worst.
<update>
I had my S's last evening. Took them for haircuts then a swim in the pool, then back to W before bedtime. I enjoyed it very much, and I hope they did too.
So far the change in the parenting schedule is holding up -- and I am very hopeful. Starting this week, I will have the boys for seven days (instead of just five) every other week -- except for this week -- W is taking them out of town tonight to visit her family two hours east of here in "Little Washington".
That brings up a major point. While W has been seemingly more than cooperative enough, especially since relenting on the 50-50 demand, I hold tonight and this weekend with very mixed emotions. It was the Friday before Father's Day last year at this time that I discovered my W's infidelity. My world was turned completely upside down in a heartbeat. For me it is painful deja vu all over again -- then, like now W had our S's, visiting with family overnight in Little Washington. Then, like now, W was treacherously planning the end of our M -- although now I am fully aware of it. Then, like now, W was being very secretive and quiet about what her real plans and motives were/are. I guess for quite a long time now she has kept me in the dark about what is really going on in her mind.
I wonder if she realizes the full significance of this weekend, these particular dates, are to me.
I know, focus on the positives. Well, I sort of did that last time. We had had a discussion the (Thursday) night before the bomb, where she had tried to broach the subject of us separating under the pretenses it would be for my sake (because I was so depressed) -- which I rejected/declined and told her we should work together on our problems together as a family. And we left it like that.
But then I found the truth out, and it's been Hell on earth ever since... (Okay, well maybe Purgatory then).
But at least I have been struggling back onto God's path as a result of this ordeal -- I can be thankful for that. I might have remained totally lost in depression were it not for this crisis.
An odd irony that.
I have to admit I do love her still. Seeing her last evening when I picked up and then dropped off the kids, I couldn't help but feel that tug on my heart. She still attracts me, invokes that natural feeling I have had towards her since the beginning. But her personality is so changed. I just don't love the person she is being right now. I see the glimmers of the woman I knew and loved for 18 years, which draws me to her, but then there is this veneer, this mantle of darkness enshrouding her soul now, an air of entitlement and selfishness, that repulses me. Even as nice as she has been this week. And that stays my hand, and saddens me.
---
Tonight I am going out to meet some friends at Chili's for drinks and desserts. We'll have a lot to talk about.
Hi Nocodes...
Im glad she is starting to settle down with this, as this will make it easier on you and the boys.
Its about time
As far as the dates go, I do doubt she has an idea of the exact date that this all went down, only becuase they are so clouded with everything else, she probably doesn't remember what happend last month.
of course you still love her, that's understandable, you will with her for 18 years.. but the love will change, probably just that you care for her, and that will be it. She isn't the person you married, and probably won't ever be unless she makes some major changes. that is the person you fell in love with, not the person she is right now.
Have fun tonight.. have a drink for me
(((hugs)))
Hi NoCode-
Well, It's just after 8:00 pm in NC right now, so I hope that means you're out with those friends and having a great time. You certainly do deserve it.
I've heard a lot of people mention their "trigger" dates lately and those dates that invoke painful memories. You know, I thought my H was having an A for quite a while before I confronted him, so I can't remember the exact "bomb" date for me. Some dates in July will hit me hard though. July was when H introduced me to OW & her H, smiling all the while telling me how we'd all have so much in common. Makes me sick to think of it. I'm sure it will never cross his mind though. I'm with tal on this one. I don't think those dates even cross their minds. I wish they'd understand someday how hard it is and how difficult those days can be.
I'm glad you have a good evening with your sons. You're a great dad and you've done a spectacular job of sticking to your guns to make sure you're as big a part of their lives as possible.
Have a good weekend! I'll be thinking of you!
SueS
......came back on to say have a Happy Father's Day too.
Just wanted to stop by and say Happy Father's Day early. My world shattered 2 years ago this next weekend so I can totally relate. I'll try to do better checking in on you.
kat
Just wanted to stop by and say Happy Father's Day early. My world shattered 2 years ago this next weekend so I can totally relate. I'll try to do better checking in on you.
kat
Me too! Happy Father's Day, Nocode! So will your sons be back in time to spend Father's Day with you??? Karen
Thanks, Tal, Sue, Kat, Karen, everyone.
Yes, Karen, they will be back this evening -- I will take custody of our S's tonight, in time for Father's Day. I'm looking forward to it.
I had a good time last night with two of my DivorceCare comrades. We had dinner and ended up closing Chili's together, talking about the latest in our sitch's. So I can't say as I was able to forget the "trigger" date, but at least I wasn't home alone brooding over it, like I would have a year ago.
The thing we've each been remarking about is how each of our spouses have been unusually nice to us these last few days. Is there a particular phase of the moon right now? It's really weird.
Happy Father's Day my friend.
(((hugs)))
Happy Father's Day, nocode. Enjoy your sons. Glad you had a great time at Chilis. Sometimes you can't avoid triggers, but you can do what you can to distract yourself. Good job.
Happy Father's Day NoCode, hope you have a great one.
Denise
Thanks, Tal (again), Lwb, Neecy,
I had a pretty good Father's Day. The boys and I went to church, had lunch, went swimming, talked to family on the phone, caught a movie on VOD, and even got some homework accomplished. We were all pretty tired by the end of the day.
I picked up my S's on Saturday evening. W had them with her Friday night for the "SummerFest" carnival in Little Washington, where her mother and aunt live now. I asked W if she would make it to church the next day -- W got very annoyed that I asked her when she claimed to have told me she always has an early morning patient to see every other weekend when she doesn't have the kids. She asked me why I asked, in a very perturbed tone. I told her no reason, I asked because her plans sometimes do change to allow her to make an unplanned visit to church. But it wasn't important (other than being polite). W was obviously bothered, and said she could not understand why I can never listen to her.
She really needs to lighten up. If she was secretly planning to wake up on these days with OM, then that's her guilty conscious making her nasty, but I don't want to know about it. That's her soul, her responsibility, and I am not concerning myself anymore.
I just looked at her, as she was criticizing me for failing to hear her "the first time". I stared her in the eyes and saw how tired she was, how she has been worn down by her life. She's still beautiful in many, all-too-familiar ways, but she just looks so alien to me at times like that. I guess this alien has hurt me so badly over these many months that its appearance is so unattractive and downright disturbing.
...
Yesterday S7 started asking me again about his mother and how he could never believe her story. I told him that W is his mother and she loves him very much -- she deserves his respect and love as his mother no matter what. This is not something for which he can make such judgments at his age.
S7 is stubborn, like both of his parents, and kept persisting in asking questions. I told S7, once again, that what is going on his mother's life is not in his control nor in my control -- it was entirely up to her and God, mostly her. All he, S7, needed to do was to love her. I then told S7 we needed to drop the subject, as we had already said enough for one day.
The truth of the matter is that despite his sweet innocence, S7 is a very curious little boy, smart enough to see things for what they are for the most part. At the same time, he is a child and has such unabiding hope. Although it rips at my soul to do so, I am sorry to say it is time I and W lay all the cards on the table before him, though it means dashing his hopes. I hate to say it, but the hard truth is this family is headed unerringly for D, and there is nothing that has been done that will avert this. At this point, there is nothing that can be done. It's all in his mother's hands.
I thought this week, six nights with my sons, went very well. But W is now trying to spoil it. She started out by asking whether I was going to notify the mediator that her services as a mediator were not needed, then W could use her for her own legal advice (I didn't tell W that I am not going to waive the conflict of interest.) She then leveled a complaint/accusation that it was probably up to her alone to have to get a "paper" (separation agreement) drawn up. And she was even complaining at one point that I have not offered to take care of the dog or give him a bath, that he was due for his shots and that maybe she needed to include pet care expenses in the child support figures.
She then got her nose out of joint about having to catch up S7 on his homework. She said I had our S's seven days and should have been able to keep up with the homework. I corrected her that I only had them 6 nights and it was much too late when they got back Saturday night (the first night) for us to have gotten any homework accomplished. Wednesday night she had them out until bedtime too. So her complaint about not getting all the homework completed was very much half her fault as well.
I let none of her rants bother me, but when she then stated that we were going to have to go back to the 5-day/9-day parenting schedule instead of 7-day/7-day, that started to get under my skin. But I still kept my cool even if I was now no longer visibly cheerful. I calmly asked her on what grounds she wanted to go back. She responded simply that, "it is just not working."
I take that to mean she has decided it is not working for her. And that, furthermore, she was being selfish and petulant, not thinking that our S's were perfectly fine with this 50-50 arrangement. In fact, she really hasn't given it enough time to really make any such determination.
I simply told W that, if that's how she felt, then she would have to "make the case" -- meaning she would have to somehow convince a judge of her stance.
Driving back from the house (this conversation started right after I had dropped off a few personal effects for the boys after work this evening) I came to the determination that I was going to continue with the 7-7 plan regardless of how W was thinking at this moment. Let her try and stop me. Our S"s deserve as much time with each parent as they can get, and she has no grounds on which she can deny them equal time with their father.
---
I still have not lawyered up yet. I was hopeful we could avoid that, but I guess I am being too optimistic. The problem right now is that money is extremely tight at the moment. The demotion in my paycheck finally hit along with an extremely painful retroactive back-dating that killed my latest paycheck. I don't know how I'm going to make ends meet now. The next few months are going to be awful in the finance department.
Oh, well, it's only money -- no use worrying about what I don't have, right?
Seems like everyone I know is going through pain this week. It must be the full moon.
NCB, if your W was a guy you know I'd think we were married to the same person!!! If they do want us to hate them, they are doing a pretty good job aren't they? (Although it hasn't happened yet for me, H is doing his best I think).
You know I've been meaning to post on your thread. I obviously think it was ridiculous of W to give you the "nice guy" article--I mean yes, you are a nice guy, but the whole slant that is ruinous to Rs is crazy obviously. But when I read that my 1st thought is I bet your W
loved that article--I'm sure she doesn't do any of the things that they mention "nice guys" doing--don't you think????
Karen
Karen, with God's help I am managing not to hate my W -- I hate her actions, her sins, but not the person. Of course, to my crazy W, my not reciprocating the hatred back at her would be construed as a "hateful act" in and of itself.
The theory behind this so-called "Nice Guy" syndrome is that by not being forthright and open with others in what is perceived by the "perpetrator" (me) as being discreet and considerate of others feelings, such as when we do not voice our objections to what we disagree with, we are really being "passive aggressive" and dishonest. As a result we build up a lot of resentment that will eventually spill out in more harmful ways.
While some of it might have some bearing in reality, I don't fully agree with this notion. The cynical part of me wonders whether this is just a perversion of the situation to make mean, callous people feel better about themselves by contrast. Thus, being "nice" is really bad.
---
I have not given a current update. Sunday morning, W and I had an argument again over the phone, it started over the parenting schedule but devolved into a petty R disagreement. We said some harsh words, mostly W.
She is back to her original difficult self -- and even more so. She is saying she has been too compromising, that even five days is too much for me with the boys, especially S3 ("He's only three.") She says I have proven incapable of being able to get S7 to do all of his homework (nevermind her interference).
She wants me to let the mediator off the hook so she can be
her personal lawyer. She says she cannot afford a lawyer and wants our mediator to still be able to produce her version of a separation agreement (SA). I told her I'm not inclined to waive the conflict of interest. Why should I give W a break when she's (re)declared war? I mean
I have to start from scratch when comes to finding legal counsel, why not
her?
When W then started to turn this into a rehash of her long complaint list against me and our M, I first tried to
end the conversation. Once again she wanted to turn this into a chance to aggravate me and pass off all the blame onto my shoulders. I tried to cut her off and ended the call. But she called me back. And then I tried to offer my own counterpoints. But I didn't get much of a chance to rebut since W kept interrupting me.
And then, in the end, she stopped
me from responding, saying she needed to get the boys to church (huh?!
I wasn't the one who called the other back.) She told me to put it into an email as she was "really interested" in getting my words in writing since I had said many times she continues to misconstrue anything I have ever said in the past and put words in my mouth. (Why? For her lawyer to use against me?)
She is still insisting that I give her the remaining details so she can draft her version of a SA.
In retrospect, I screwed up and allowed her to take the offensive yet again. She automatically assumes she should have the right to make all decisions and to have control over the lives of those around her. And taking the offensive gives her a strong measure of that control she demands.
I've got to stop that. Where the "nice guy" in me would rather acquiesce to her unreasonable demands just to keep the peace in the R, now that W is determined to kill the M, it is time to stop worrying about W's feelings and think more about myself and my S's. Once she manages to get her precious D, I will no longer have any obligation to maintain any compassion for her sensitivities, least of all her megalomaniacal demands for control.
Once she gets her D
I won't owe her jack!In fact, I started to tell her that I am no longer going to defer to her control in matters related to our S's. She still automatically assumes that she alone has our S's best interests in mind for any decision she makes. I am putting my foot down where it comes to these unilateral decisions being made for our S's -- no longer will
she be calling all the shots.
Hey nocode.
She goes back and forth on the kids. First, she mentions its too long (the 5 days) for both of you, the one with the kids and the one without. Then she thinks that its just YOU that shouldn't have them for 5 days straight due to S3 all of sudden being so young, and S7 not doing his homework (which I know you help with!)
She wants me to let the mediator off the hook so she can be her personal lawyer
Wow. I wouldn't agree to this either. The mediator we hired is so strict about this. She won't even see a new client without stating why you are there (mediator or atty). Everything is null and void if one of us seeks legal advice elsewhere (I believe we can have the agreement read by someone else though).
I am putting my foot down where it comes to these unilateral decisions being made for our S's -- no longer will she be calling all the shots
Good job mister!!
(((nocode)))
I am putting my foot down where it comes to these unilateral decisions being made for our S's -- no longer will she be calling all the shots.
I think that is a great idea! I think that your W is a lot like my H maybe--I believe my H lost respect for me when I was letting him make all the decisions. I think he thought (thinks) of me as more of an employee or something, (esp. since I am a sahm). I think my H sees being nice as weakness, and kind of the same way as that article you were talking about it--"nice" is bad.
Although I have to admit the 2 decisions I have made (where the kids and I want to live after the D) and moving my son's bedroom upstairs so he could have more privacy, my H went ballistic. I think he really likes having the control, and the fact that I would make decisions drives him crazy. But I wonder if eventually maybe he will respect me more--or not, but even if he doesn't, I think I respect myself more, and maybe that's good enough.
Karen
Thanks for looking in on me, Lwb, Karen.
I say I will put my foot down, but it's not quite that easy. W is, as I have mentioned, a major control freak. The primary reason I acquiesced on so many things during our marriage -- finances, budgeting, decisions on schooling, schedules, etc -- was not because I was incompetent (I was in charge of all that and more long before I met W) but because it seemed to cause everyone so much less stress. But in retrospect, I truly see how it has caused more harm than good. W has gotten worse about stressing over her control of things.
So as I begin to assert my rights & responsibilities over our two S's, W is going to freak out. I see this causing an avalanche of animosity and poor behavior by W. I've gotten plenty of this already as W sees me acting more and more independently of her "wishes".
She totally denies this, but there is no other explanation for much of her reaction. Our MC/IC pegged her key problem exactly.
So as I begin to assert my rights & responsibilities over our two S's, W is going to freak out. I see this causing an avalanche of animosity and poor behavior by W. I've gotten plenty of this already as W sees me acting more and more independently of her "wishes".
She totally denies this, but there is no other explanation for much of her reaction. Our MC/IC pegged her key problem exactly.
I have this problem too, NC! I try to stand firm and not let him yell at me or whatever, but sometimes that's tough for me to do. Does your MC/IC have any suggestions/ideas for how you should handle it when your W freaks out???? If not, I was thinking that would be good to discuss with my IC, also! Karen
My IC (formerly our MC) has offered a few pointers, but hasn't comprehensively suggested how to handle W's control freak-outs.
I have an appointment with him Sunday after next -- I must remember to ask him.
I am so sorry if your H too tries to manipulate or out-right control you. That is just not healthy for a relationship.
Hey Nocode,
Just dropping in to say Hey
IT's ME... Husband..... 13 more days and I will be getting ready to leave with W to a Retro weekend....
Hey, H, thanks so much for stopping by.
I'm so proud of you, dude. That's so great! I've been taking a peek on your thread now and again. I have confidence in you.
I'll be stopping by your thread to wish you well.
W and I have been continuing to spar via email. She sent me a barrage of emails the other day, mostly her trying to dictate to me the terms of settling our marital affairs. She still is demanding that I release the mediator so she can act as W's personal lawyer -- which I am not going to do. Then she expects to control the discussion on child support and child custody.
She is calling my stance on her mileage pay "ugly" -- I insist on it being included as part of her income, and according to my lawyer, it meets state guidelines.
I have written several drafts for a letter I have been contemplating, to send to W, partly in response to what she said in her emails and phone arguments. I have sent nothing yet. I am feeling the urge to send W something as a last resort, since July 7 will be here before we know it and W will surely file that day.
Yes, I know that anything I say to her is highly unlikely to deter her from her reckless course. Especially if she is still lost in the fog of adulterous romance. But still I wonder if I would regret not saying something even so. A last ditch LRT maybe.
She is calling my stance on her mileage pay "ugly" -- I insist on it being included as part of her income, and according to my lawyer, it meets state guidelines.
Ok - I can understand you wanting to use this as a bargaining chip, or perhaps you just want to stick it to her since she's the one ending the marriage. BUT - if you take the emotion out of it and just look at it logically - mileage pay is not really income. It is reimbursement for the additional expenses involved in operating a vehicle, wear and tear, and buying gas for the travel, no?
How much does she get paid for her mileage? Let's say she drives an additional 12,000 miles a year that is work-related. In addition to,say, $2500 worth of gas, she loses maybe an extra 1/10 of the value of her car from those miles - say $2,000 on a $20,000 car. Add in additional car maintenance, tires, oil change and repairs for those extra 12,000 miles - add at least another $500 - $1,000. So in reality - at least the first 40-50cents per mile is just covering her expenses and not real income to her.
So it would not really be fair to include that in her income calculations. It would be like you having a shop, and your income being calculated on your gross receipts rather than on your profit after you paid for the items you sell.
Ellie
NC-
Before sending anything, ask yourself this question: Can anything in this letter be used against you if this goes to court?
Ellie-As a general rule, the criteria for income calculations is whether or not the income is taxable. Using your shop argument, my mortgage payment and bills should be taken off of my income before calculations. We all know that wouldn't be fair.
Ellie,
I truly understand what you're saying. I've considered this myself. But the state child support guidelines are based on gross income, not net. If we were talking about factoring just our net incomes, after expenses, that would be fine.
Besides, if one wants to look at the sizeable monthly mileage pay as a reimbursement, then one could easily look at one's regular paycheck as nothing more than reimbursement for time and expenses as well.
But I guess it is beneath me to get into a argument of semantics when I have to admit that I am indeed feeling some resentment at W, and that it is coming into play in this. These emotions are suppressed but they are still there, coloring my motives.
I admit that.
I feel like I am having to pay for the consequences for all of her decisions. She wanted to keep this "low-profit" (or so she claims) job when she is the one who complained the most about our finances. She drove up our auto insurance premiums because she insisted on staying in a job driving 3000+ miles a month, when there were good jobs in her profession that don't require such travel. She is the one who used this job, with its lack of scheduling accountability, driving all over creation, to hide her adulterous affair.
I need to get this residual anger out of me. I know. But its so hard when my sense of justice and fairplay has been regularly assaulted. I just don't want her to take anything more from me and my sons than she already has.
Thanks for letting me vent, and for letting me re-examine this. I will consider this some more.
If you or anyone has any more thoughts, please feel free to offer them. I appreciate all of you.
MC,
The letter would be nothing more than a statement of how I still feel about her. I have detached from her about as far as I can while still having love for her. But the point is that I do still love her and want what's best for her. Despite the avalanche of pain she's caused me in this last year, I still haven't been able to let go of that love.
I wish I could.
As for it possibly containing anything that could be used against me in a legal proceeding, I don't know. If she wanted to do that, with something that personal, then I guess she wouldn't be worth a last appeal anyway.
The question then -- is she worth it?
I haven't seen anything in her current behavior that I find becoming. She's not the same person. Her contempt for me is beyond anything I thought the woman I thought I married was capable of. And yet I think I can say anything to her she might truly hear?
No, maybe not. I guess I need to really and truly give her over to God instead. I can say nothing to her that won't be twisted by her fog, nothing for the time being. I just need to continue to pray for her and minimize what interactions with her as I can.
The question then -- is she worth it?
I haven't seen anything in her current behavior that I find becoming. She's not the same person. Her contempt for me is beyond anything I thought the woman I thought I married was capable of.
NoCode,
I am NOT saying things are working out in my sitch but...If I really think back. Last year at this time. I world have made the same statement.
Now my w is still not the woman I married but after this neither one of us will ever be the same person we married.
It is very difficult for me not to settle in that "comfort zone"
Right now. Wife is acting like she did before all this stuff started. Only this time I am aware something is not right. I don't think the OM is involved at this time but I do think that if we would have went to retro this time last year before the Om all of this may not have happened.
Ok sorry about talking about my sitch but what I wanted to say is that it is possible for our wives to lose some of that FOG. And I have seen from others here that it is possible for them to come back completely...the other side... I have also seen the W or H leave right when you think you were back on track.
What a fri@en soap opara
H
Good luck buddy
H
The question then -- is she worth it?
I haven't seen anything in her current behavior that I find becoming. She's not the same person. Her contempt for me is beyond anything I thought the woman I thought I married was capable of. And yet I think I can say anything to her she might truly hear?
No, maybe not. I guess I need to really and truly give her over to God instead. I can say nothing to her that won't be twisted by her fog, nothing for the time being. I just need to continue to pray for her and minimize what interactions with her as I can.
I think that sounds like a good plan, NC! I hate to bring up Dr. Phil, how embarrassing, but I think he says something like is what you're doing hurting or helping your R? And I think some of what you're doing like arguing with her about the D is not helping obviously. It doesn't seem to from what you say. I just started in the process but H wanted something from me and my L said not to give it to him and I just relayed that message to him that I would LOVE to help him out, but my L said I couldn't, and I think we are supposed to do what our Ls tell us and follow their advice. I know my H believes I am a dumb & overly trusting person (ok maybe part of that is true) but I don't think I'm as dumb as he thinks, and playing dumb like I have no control and I'm getting bossed by my L is something that I think is useful for me and getting out of arguments. I do think LRT is good, if not for your R just for your mental health and PMA and I am trying to do that as much as possible although it doesn't come naturally to me.
And about the mileage, if your L thinks that is what you should be doing or not I would listen to your L and follow his advice, and if you W wants to talk about that say that is the advice of your L and let her L talk to your L. I mean they are the ones that want the D and have the OP, so if they aren't happy they have other things they could be doing to prevent this. It's not like we are the ones breaking up the M so you shouldn't feel any guilt and I certainly don't!!!
Oh, and I agree with you that anything you say she probably won't hear or understand or whatever. My H is very foggy, and Puppy and others have told me not to waste my time and that is probably true in your case, too. I guess maybe that is why DB seems to focus on actions rather than talking, b/c the talking is kind of pointless at this point in the process I think. Karen
Thanks, H, talking about your own situation actually helps. It provides comparison and contrast to my own sitch, which is pretty bleak.
Karen, that's not just Dr. Phil but MWD too. And I have asked myself that question a lot, but quite often I just don't have a definitive answer. It's a fine line -- balancing standing up for my own interests, and those ultimately for my S's, against potentially antagonizing W. It seems I am often d*mned if do or d*mned if I don't, in her eyes. So I feel it makes more sense to try to align myself with God's purposes instead, to do what I am led to do that is right with Him.
Just when I think I'm properly detached and getting settled with the inevitable, today I just felt the sudden pangs of anxiety in realizing that W will be legally free to file for D one week from now, on July 7.
I know, I know. I keep telling myself to not worry about things that are outside of my control. Sometimes that is easier said than done.
There is nothing I can do to prevent it. And there has been nothing I have done that has had any effect in averting it. Obviously, my W has more will and determination and plays this "game" so much better than myself.
I knew I was powerless, but I just never realized how much until this past year. Now it is eminent.
I have faith that I will survive this. But I worry for my W and what this will do to my S's. On that, because of my S's, it is so very hard to detach. But for my children I could more easily have let her go completely -- I think I would have already come so much farther.
Lately I keep thinking about what I want to say to her. It keeps rolling over and over in my mind. I realize it wouldn't change anything, and yet I have this pent-up desire to say my peace.
Is there nothing that I can say?
No, I (must) give this over to God Almighty, maker of Heaven and Earth. I release this into the hands of my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, and ask for forgiveness for myself and for my lost wife. I pray she too will accept His grace again some day.
No, I (must) give this over to God Almighty, maker of Heaven and Earth. I release this into the hands of my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, and ask for forgiveness for myself and for my lost wife. I pray she too will accept His grace again some day.
I pray every day too, sometimes for my R but always for H to find his way back to God and the right path. I do believe that if our prayers are not answered exactly how we want, but our marriages end, that God probably has something even better in store for us. And lately it does look like at least in my case, that may be what happens. But so far everything in my life has worked out (I believe with God's help), so I believe this will too. And I know everything will work out for you too, NC!!! Karen
Thanks, Karen, I believe so too. I have come to realize that if my W is going to continue walking away from our M and continue with her selfish, sinful behaviors then God is planning on removing her from my life, not as a punishment of me but to save me for something better in life.
So while God "hates divorce", if we allow Him to He will use any adversity to lead us on a more spiritually healthy path, to replace what is wrong in our lives with something far better.
---
W is now trying to experiment again with the parenting schedule. She was trying to push us back to the 5-day/9-day schedule, but is wanting to experiment with having just S7 stay two additional nights. She picked them up on her mid-week evening (we each take one evening during the other's week of custody to spend time with our S's, to break up the long week of little contact with the other parent.) Took them swimming at the Y. She was planning on keeping S3 with her the last two nights of my week, but S3 wants to stay wherever S7 stays.
When W dropped them off this evening after their swim, they were all still in their wet swim clothes, W included. I tried to ogle W, but her turn of character sours any positives I would have thought of her. Still, I really, really miss the old W. Where is that sweet, modest person I once knew?
Tomorrow, July 3rd, is our 17th Wedding Anniversary. I started to say something to W this evening, but I stopped myself. And I wondered (again) about writing a letter. I won't waste my time on gifts or cards this year. But I feel compelled to say or do something, to at least acknowledge the day to her, to let her know it has not slipped my mind.
It's so sad.
Hey mister,
But I feel compelled to say or do something, to at least acknowledge the day to her, to let her know it has not slipped my mind.
If you don't think she will say anything and you feel you should, thank her for your sons, something that came out of the marriage that is priceless.
On our anniversary, I swear to you it was 11:50pm (10 minutes to go) and H blurts out "I know what today is!" LOL! I said "Me too, and thank you for the girls. I would be lost without them", and he smiled. That was that.
H's new attitude and change makes him less attractive to me as well. Funny, because he has never been in better shape.
Glad you guys are to a point where you can play around with the schedules for your sons sake. Maybe bring that up soon, that you think its great that you guys can put the boys first, and communicate about them.
then God is planning on removing her from my life, not as a punishment of me but to save me for something better in life.
I believe this to be the case.
(((NO CODE))) for tomorrow. Its hard, isn't it?
Hey Nocode buddy....
A little input on the kid sitch..
My first wife (the coke head) tried the same thing with me. She just wanted to have the older D (3yo) and not the 3mo. I told her my kids will never have a normal life as we are now. I can only give them so much. What I do know is they will AWAYS have each other. they are a pair.. take it or leave it.. so as long as I sent money to buy diapers and food for the girls she was ok with it. As soon as I started sending diapers and food with the girls she stopped seeing them.. Makes ya wonder how much coke I bought and did not even know it....
Doc
P.S I am not saying your wife is a coke head..Just that the kids should stay together
Yes, Lwb, it is
hard...
This morning I mentioned to S7 that today marked W & my 17th Anniversary. He got all excited and then I told him to calm down -- that we were not going to celebrate it. He looked at me with the saddest, most disappointed look. I commiserated with him and told him it just wasn't going to happen any more -- his mother was dissolving the M and we were no longer going to be married.
I was fully intending to be upbeat today despite everything, and then this scene with S7 got me pondering. And when I made it into work I began stewing over this day even more. This was the first time in 17 years I had not taken this day off from work.
I sent W a short email this morning, against better judgement:
I keep asking myself, but I just can't say for sure... Knowing what I know now, would I do it all over again?
If I was sure you had truly loved me? Yes, despite the pain. For better and worse. Otherwise? I just don't know.
I am sorry I let this happen to us. Please forgive me.
It was probably not the best move I could have come up with. This evening I noted that W had sent a reply this afternoon:
I'm sorry we let this happen too. Going forward is painful, but going back would be far more painful so I have to go forward. I look back & see the warning signs along the way.... I see times <my brother> & <my SIL> & our neighbors have taken for themselves. That would have been great. There did not seem to be a whole lot of interest on either of our parts. You have complained about me controlling things & I have lamented that I had to because you wouldn't. I did vocalize these laments to a distracted & uninterested husband. These were the curling brown leaves on a dying marriage plant. I can't go back. Lets go forward & work out the best routine for the kids. That is my focus now. I don't care about money. I'll take or give whatever the court says is fair. I'll file next week. They would prefer a signed separation agreement, but oh well. 16 was all I could take. I'm sorry
.
I shouldn't be surprised at the repeated attacks. Nor with her continuing to misrepresent my feelings or intent during our M, and the complete mischaracterization of my actions. She continues to make it sound as if I was the one consciously trying to destroy our M.
I sent a response just now, trying to stay even-keeled:
Go in peace is all I ask.
I said nothing about going back. I merely wanted to acknowledge today, but in so doing it brought back up the pain of what was lost, and so I felt the need to express my regret. If you have none, fine.
That speaks volumes, sadly.
But I lay all that aside, because no matter what, above all else, I want to take this occasion to thank you for our children. Something good did come of this at the least. And acknowledging the significance of this day is, if nothing else, a recognition of their significance in our lives.
Why do I think a leopard can change its spots?
Because it happened
once at least.
Either that or she had me completely fooled for the entire 16 years leading up to the bomb.
Husband, I am inclined to think that my W might be an addict of some sort after all. Maybe not coke, but something nearly as devastating.
My Fourth of July was good. Went to a poolside party with some of my DivorceCare and church friends. I had custody of S7 and he went with me to the pool. It was fun.
I then dropped S7 off at his mother's. She took S3 and S7 to a baseball game far away east -- I suspect because it's close to OM.
I got a bit upset last night because I snooped on W's computer. She had a link in her browser history to a MeetUp page for some guy with the same name as OM -- turned out it couldn't have been OM since this particular guy lives about three hours
west of here, not east. (Still, why did W have a link to this person if not?)
I mention this because the MeetUp's this person was interested in involved Wiccan, Tarot, Witchcraft, Herbalism and other New Age, Anti-Christian junk. It alarmed me greatly she might be exposing our S's to such insanity. Thankfully it doesn't appear so.
Nevertheless I didn't sleep well last night. I got up this morning and wrote W another follow-up email:
Actually, I've got more to say on this -- a lot more -- but I will just say this (please hear me out):
I am sorry you don't really know who I am anymore. I'm sorry you don't know who you really are anymore as well.
Because of ignorance, pride, selfishness, dishonesty and blindness, we have both suffered, needlessly, in the latter part of this marriage by each other's actions and inactions. In the last year alone, I personally have suffered more pain and more agony than I thought was ever possible. But through the midst of that turmoil I have found, ironically, what true joy really is. Yes, me, Mr. Depression himself.
God Almighty uses adversity to wake us up and to get a word edgewise into our self-absorbed lives. He did so with me, and I even though I still have pain, so too have I joy. It amazes me, and yet it shouldn't.
You see, for most of our lives we've both been wrong and immature about what happiness is and what a marriage is supposed to bring to us. You have been under the mistaken notion that a spouse's job and responsibility is to make the other happy, and when that doesn't happen, the marriage is over. You express a large degree of entitlement that just doesn't have any foundation in His plan, for life or for marriage.
Happiness is fleeting, but true joy comes not of other people but from God and accepting Christ as our savior -- and it encompasses both happiness and sorrow, good times and bad. You don't find happiness or joy through marriage without God. Marriage brings joy but only through God. The joy that God provides through the Holy Spirit gives us the serenity to persevere through it all, come what may, knowing that His Kingdom awaits us.
His gift of joy is given like His grace -- we need only accept it. It's our choice.
Despite the fact you seems to think I am trying to "entrap" you again, or something like that, you need to understand that it really doesn't matter if I want you back or not. In fact, I have come to the conclusion that that is not even what is most important here.
All that matters is that God wants you back.
That's what He keeps telling me. Everywhere I turn, every prayer I make with Him, every time I get down and try to converse with Him, I cannot escape it. He says to me, "Leave her to me. I want her back and that is all that matters right now."
I have been trying to do that. For the sake of S7 and S3, because of my love for them and, yes, for you, I am willing to trust and have faith in the Lord. I pray now that you will truly and honestly listen to Him, even if you never listen to me ever again on anything else.
Yeah, I know she's likely to not hear any of this, and she's more inclined to go the opposite direction given the message comes from me. It's a bit preachy, even for her. But I felt compelled to say something. It's not all about me. It's not all about her. It's about God and the greater good.
Yeah, I know she's likely to not hear any of this, and she's more inclined to go the opposite direction given the message comes from me. It's a bit preachy, even for her. But I felt compelled to say something. It's not all about me. It's not all about her. It's about God and the greater good.
Yes, I think you're right! She won't hear it or if she does she'll prob. take it the wrong way!!! I think maybe it's something you just have to experience like we have this past year or whatever, and not something that someone can tell you about? I think the only reason we should email like that is if it made you feel better to express that, then it's worth it. If it doesn't make you feel better, then I wouldn't bother. I do have faith that God is trying to reach your W and my H and other WAS. They are probably trying to fight that at this stage I suspect though, but you know He's pretty powerful, so who knows what will happen someday? Karen
Nocode, I don't think I have posted before. I have tried to keep up. I have even paraphrased something you said to your W once.
It would seem like your W is just at that stage. No turning back. Maybe she is too proud. It does seem like she has turned away from her faith. She may not believe this, but don't they all lie to themselves anyway?
I have been tempted to tell my roomie something like, "I don't know what God you now pray to, but my God...."
Tempted, but won't. I hope.
I want to take the high road. Be interesting how your W responds. I DO think it was a bit much. But that is you.
Hope you don't take that the wrong way.
Best of luck to you, brother.
Thanks, Karen, H4H,
I know it was a bit much -- but if I had never said it, I would have carried the guilt of not pointing it out, doing everything possible. But like you said, H4H, that is me, for better or worse.
I did get a response a couple of hours ago, which I just read...
"heavy sigh" Your words have always sounded so good. In the past year how many times have you put any love into action? You don't seem to understand that when you throw a tantrum when I ask you to help clean out this house to get it ready to sell it negates any religious platitude you 've said & makes it just noise. Godly love works for others, does for others. I cry every time I start wading through the mountains of stuff in this house & then I see that you've bought more bookcases & a coffee table when there are ones here I'm going to have to haul off by myself. You agreed that we need to sell the house & said you want 60% of the profit but I'm the one that has put in the sweat equity. I'm sorry if I can't take your preaching to heart. It is very much like the "holy" men who passed by the dying man. The "good Samaritan" helped willingly. You've had a year. I'll box your stuff & you can go through it. I'm finally making it to the closets. My paperwork load hasn't been quite as heavy so I'm making some progress.
Typical WAS cynicism and hyperbole -- I'm not surprised. If this pushes her further ways into her myopic fog, further away from God, then I am sorry for that. It's still
her choice.
I s*ck at DB'ing, but I tried.
Two things jump out at me:
(1) She is complaining about me seeking 60% of the house, which I gave into 50-50 months ago now during "mediation" (as long as custody was going to also be 50-50). So I question why she's grousing about that still.
(2) It should be obvious to anyone reading this that her personal Love Language involves Acts of Service. (Her secondary LL is Physical Touch -- but she no longer wants me anywhere near her.) She never cares to reciprocate with
my personal LL, Quality Time and Words of Affirmation. In fact she now always leads with the exact opposite, which has done nothing but discourage me from spending any time at the house doing yardwork and repairs like I had in the beginning of this separation. I just was not welcome.
Thus our impasse.
Should I respond?
Is there even a response?
So much obfuscation, so much negativity. No wonder I suffered under depression for so long. It didn't have to be this way.
Well, I am no longer going to allow anyone to steal my joy. No more.
Wow. She is STILL focusing on that one time you got upset when she asked you to take the stereo/computer equipment!?? Even I remember that time, and if she has only that example to go of off, she is grasping.
She is showing some remorse, but like my H, she is justifying her actions with lots of spun out 'unfacts'. I am sorry nocode.
I have had quite a bit of introspection since last evening.
I acknowledge I allow my beliefs and convictions to come to the fore, to the point that I tend to beat someone over the head with them. I regret that. W used to do the same with me, and now the shoe is on the other foot. I need to walk gently, with humility and compassion.
My W has strayed from the path, the very path she helped me get back on eighteen years ago. I need to show her more of the compassion and understanding she needs to return to Him. I must be mindful of sending the wrong message or pushing her away.
I believe we are all sinners who fall far short of being worthy of His grace. No one is worthy of the sacrifice Jesus made for us. Even Christians who have accepted Him as our lord and savior are sinners -- sinners in recovery, but still sinners.
Too many, both Christian and non-Christian alike, forget that the Church is really a hospital for sinners, not a country club for saints.
I just want to let all of you know that I love you all (y'all, I should say). I really need all of you to help keep me honest and true, to call me when I am too fervent or going off the deep end. If I offend anyone in even the slightest way, please be candid and call me on it.
Having said that, my situation is winding down very quickly. I fully expect W to keep to her word -- she will file for D this week, tomorrow most likely. It is a change in my life that I have never felt so helpless in effecting. I would say that my actions in this last year might be a beacon to others for what not to do to save your marriage. But in all levity, I don't think anything I could have done or not have done would have changed the outcome.
DB'ing can only to be said to be successful in the LBS' outcome. The results of the M itself, either way, are merely incidental.
So, I guess I am thankful to everyone for the friendship and the words of advice, in helping me get through this. It's not quite over just yet, but the inertia is so great now, it's merely fait accompli at this point.
Once this thread locks, I ponder whether to open a new one. I will continue to lurk here and to offer my own words of advice and support to my friends. But I don't know if the journalling and the pondering over my own sitch is fruitful anymore, especially as it starts a new chapter that has little bearing on this forum. Perhaps I should consider putting out a shingle on the "Surviving the big D".
Blessings to all.
Perhaps I should consider putting out a shingle on the "Surviving the big D".
Maybe you and I should move our DB paper bag over to Surviving. I have been pondering it as well. SallyM said her whole life views changed when she moved there, because there were all sorts of people in all sorts of stages on Surviving. Proof that we will survive it.
(((nocode)))
Hello, Lwb,
I want to tell you again how wonderful a lady you are, and that you are someone who least deserves the pain of D. You have an inner strength and beauty that just shines.
Yes, I think the Surviving-D forum will be more appropriate. I have lurked there myself, trying to get acquainted with people's various situations.
I hope you holiday was wonderful and you're enjoying every precious moment with your DD's.
May God bless.
Thank you so much.
And may I just say that you are an amazingly strong committed man, and to top it off, a wonderfully devoted and loving father. I wish I could erase your and your boys pain, I really do.
We had a fabulous 4th weekend. D4 kept yelling "Happy Birthday July!" instead of "Happy 4th of July". Too cute.
NCB,
You are such a rock to us and I hate that you are going through such pain right now. We all know what a wonderful man and father you are.
I do think that your emails to her are falling on deaf ears. I think maybe it is time just to let her be and continue to make her own mistakes. I think it will just put more hatred and justification in her heart if you continue. I'm sorry, I don't mean to sound harsh if that is how I'm coming off. I just worry about your feelings and her replies always upset you.
Perhaps you can write the letters to her and put them in a shoebox in the top of your closet. One day when this all behind you, you can take them out and bury them along with the past.
Hugs, Yoyo
Hugs, Yoyo
NCB,
I do think that your emails to her are falling on deaf ears. I think maybe it is time just to let her be and continue to make her own mistakes. I think it will just put more hatred and justification in her heart if you continue. I'm sorry, I don't mean to sound harsh if that is how I'm coming off. I just worry about your feelings and her replies always upset you.
I agree with Yoyo as always. I don't think your W deserves your emails! Would it be a 180 for you to try LRTing more, just limiting your emails to the kids? You have reached out to her several times, and I know this is bad for me to think but I am wondering if she gets enjoyment out of rejecting you/your efforts to communicate. I agree about getting your thoughts out on paper, but maybe not sending them? You know, they don't seem to work, just irritate or anger your W, so doing more of what works? And you know I suggest this when I am the absolute worst at LRT of course!
And you know we only say this b/c we worry and care about you??? Karen