I am one of the bad guys -the unfaithful partner. 35H,34W,11M 3 kids, and my beef with this book is that it does not talk at all about the Exit Affair concept, and it does not draw out two core assumptions- 1)that the UP needs to feel REMORSE (i really dont) and that 2)the UP needs to be 100% committed to making the marriage work (I'm really not)
and yet I waffle on the fence, mortified about the effect on the kids, and the longterm mental health of my wife. no kids, I'd have left yrs ago. But as it is, we are in a sticky situation.
Anyway, for what was otherwise a great book on the subject of marriage and infidelity, I was bummed there wasn't more for guys like me - who could prob be lassoed back in, but feel that 99.9% of ther literature out there is intended for the BS
Any thoughts?
Am i the only unfaithful on this board?
Cheers
Advice,
I think you'll find that "After the Affair," by Janis A. Spring, has some of what you're looking for. It's excellent.
Puppy
i tried that book -it was useful, but also glossed over the areas of "what is remorse? how do i know if I'm feeling it?" and "am I really committed? what does it mean to be committed?"
no one, and I mean, NO ONE has addressed these two topics in all of the literature I've seen on marriage, infidelity, and divorce.
I don't think the books are going to tell you what you want or what you should do. Only you can decide that. If you need helping deciding or getting to the bottom of your feelings, I suggest seeing a counselor. Or I am misunderstanding what you're looking for?
what is remorse? how do i know if I'm feeling it?
My guess would have to be if you need to ask then you are not feeling it. Look up remorse in a dictionary -
remorse - a strong feeling of guilt
remorseless-unkind and showing no pity or regret; continuing in an unpleasant and persistent way.
what does it mean to be committed?
A committed person is someone who has strong, (generally positive), beliefs in something - ie a committed christian.
Are you still actively having an A? Does your S know if you are?
Tell us a bit more about your sitch.
You are certainly not the only unfaithful spouse on these boards - the sort of responses you get will generally depend on how you aproach the boards - remember, there are a lot of people on here who have been badly hurt by their S's cheating. Tell us why you cheated - what are/were you not getting at home that the A has given you? Is your OW someone you would want as a long term partner?
I spent quite a long time in my M not being sure if I wanted it or not, (I think in some sort of transitional or ML crisis). It drove my H away and he had an A; I had come to the conclusion, (slowly), that I wanted my M and my H, but finding out that I had almost lost that sure polarised my feelings. Perhaps if your W rejected you it might make you realise what you want.
Hope that helps
i ended the A in November for the second time, but feel like life without AP is life not having oxygen - sorry if that hurts the BPs. AP was a co-worker (I quit my job in attempts at reconciiation), and is also married (but no kids).
I am in fact sseing a counselor, but haven't gotten to the discussion of "when is enough enough" - I feel like W and I are in the "after the last resort" phase - I've moved out, and our communication is perfunctory- she (W) is doing a good job finally of not making my life a living hell with constant intrusion and interrogation. Meanwhile, I am torn between the well-being of the children (guilt and heartbreak if I leave) versus making myself miserable with a person I simply do not love. We hadn't knwn each other long before getting married quickly due to pregnancy. We never got to know each other as a couple first. I am seriously doubting we would have lasted as a couple sans children. And then BAM along comes AP who opens a new light - I was 10+yrs faithful until she came along. It wasn't about the sex, it was about the emotional connection, respect, honesty, and understanding we shared (granted, as partners in crime, but nonetheless real).
Yes, please tell us more about your sitch. We can all learn from each other.
Another great book (I can't stress it enough) to check out, if you haven't already, would be "Not Just Friends" by Dr. Shirley Glass. MWD herself has referred to it as "a godsend."
There are some questions Glass poses for the UPs to ask themselves. I will post them, and perhaps you could share your thoughts with us.
**NOTE** - Glass states that "it's important that you do not make the mistake of deciding on the basis of comparing an exciting, illicit romance with a stable, long-term M."
1. Picture yourself with the AP (affair partner) in a long-term committed R.
* What would life be like 5 years from now; 20 years from now?
* Ask yourself whether the AP wants to have children. If you already have a family, do you want to be raising another family in the future?
* What would it be like for you and your AP to raise stepchildren together?
* How would your children handle your M to the person who broke up their intact family?
* What were the things that attracted you to your AP? If these traits were to become exaggerated, would you still be attracted? For example, if you like the fact that your AP is always frank and direct, imagine what it would be like to be with someone who's brutally honest.
2. What will it be like when the passion of a forbidden love wears off 10 years from now? Imagine how forlorn you might have been if something had prevented you from marrying your S. You probably would have believed forever that you had lost the one true love of your life.
3. Would you still want to D your S even if the R with the AP doesn't work out?
4. Visualize where you want to be in 10 or 20 years from now - where you want to be living, how you want to spend your time, and what gives you pleasure. What happened to the dreams you once had about what it would be like to grow old together with your S?
Other considerations -
Are you staying in the M out of guilt or duty? For the children? Do you feel you are too weak to end it and too afraid to be on your own?
Here's a reality check: Individuals often carry their psychological problems with them into the next R. Also, second M's (which have a 60% divorce rate - and even worse if you happen to M your AP) may have the added strain of blended families and stepchildren. "R's that began through betrayal and broken trust often end up having their own problems with trust."
I commend you for coming here. Not an easy thing to do, I'm sure.
right - these are the key questions-
(1) the only thing frightening here is the kids' reaction and grudges over time - that is what I am wrestling with now - as for the rest, I have considered it, and think I've been very realistic about trading one set of problems for another, and all relationships' eventuality toward routine and repetition - these things don't bother me because it is in the very small details of moments that I developed my confidence with the AP- we just see the world from a very similar, broken way.
(2) I simply do not share this belief about S. I sincerely do not think forlorn would describe my feelings had we broken up in the beginning, prior to getting married
(3)This is a barrier I've only recently, but with certainty, broken through - I'm not leaving S to be with AP. I'm leaving S to be alone. AP is a crossroads further down the line into the future to be considered.
(4) Sadly, I don't recall such dreams of empty nesting together. Maybe I'm being unfair, and rewriting the history again. But we simply do not get along, and I for one do not enjoy S's company. Period. It's really simple, not complicated.
I do feel I'm in this for the kids now, and have been a coward for not making decisions, and feel bad for dragging many people through this in the process. This is the worst kind of purgatory. I realize it's not a death sentence from cancer or a crippling accident, but to me it's a mental hornet's nest every time I wake up in the morning. I hope and pray for clarity, but don['t expect an Epiphany - I think this is a gradual process of detachment, and it really sucks.
What do you understand that your S wants?
most likely out of religious conviciton more than emotions, S wants to keep the family in tact. She wants me to come back, with assurances and promises never to stray again. This much is probably feasible.
S also wants more affection, "I Love yous", hugs, simple conversation, me expressing an interest in her and her aspirations. These things are harder for me. They need to come from the heart.
Oh yeah, and S above all wants honesty and sincerity. At present, she can't get this, and also get the above affection. Just ain't in me.
Have you thought about going to Retrouvaille? I hear it's very good at teaching couple's to communicate better - which is useful even if you don't stay together.
Just an idea. There are some people on these boards who have had a very positive experience there and I haven't seen one BAD report, even if the M didn't ultimately succeed.
UP,
I suppose you have casually dismissed the certain possibility of your endorphin-based addiction to the OP as the reason you feel the way you do? Please, don't kid a kidder here -- we've
all felt that heady "in-love" euphoria and we all know how intoxicating it is. We well remember how this "being in love" clouds your view of the object of that affection, even when we deny it. This is called "
limmerance" and it always fades away at some point in the R, usually between six months and two years.
When, not
if, that euphoria fades will the real test of your "love" begin and whether you still find that OP to be "perfect". Until then, it is grossly unfair to judge your S or your R with them in that light. Observe my sig below -- I
strongly believe that real and lasting love is a
decision.
Oh yeah, and S above all wants honesty and sincerity. At present, she can't get this, and also get the above affection. Just ain't in me.
How old are you? I have to ask. If this is
truly how you feel -- and not some shallow rationalization to continue with your own selfishness -- then not only should you no longer be in a M or R with your current W, but you shouldn't have any R with your AP either. In fact, I don't think you should have a R with your children either. JMNSHO.
Sorry to be blunt, UP, but if you don't understand the need for honesty and sincerity in a M, then maybe you need a time-out from any and
all relationships.
Saffie is right. You could learn a lot about commitment at Retrouvaille, see
http://www.helpourmarriage.org. Remorse? Well, they can't teach you that. But they can definitely show you what it looks like. They don't write books. They teach by example. If you go you will benefit. One caveat, they ask you to come in with an open mind and a willing heart. If you can't do that, then there are other couples who could benefit more from a place in the room.
Nocodes,
I understand completely where you are coming from, but don't you think this guy has come to the boards to be honest here and explore whether or not he should be recommitting to his M and his family.
To say he can't be loving etc and be honest with his wife I can understand at the moment. He can't do that because he doesn't know what he wants it seems.
Up, do you think your W would want to remain in a loveless M? She is asking for affection etc... I don't think she would be asking for that if she just wanted to keep the family together for religious reasons. I honestly think you are selling your W short here. You need to give this time and thought and see if these feelings can grow back.
Nocodes is absolutely right that it is hard to recapture the feelings for your W whilst still involved or attached to OP; even if they are on the back burner rather than full on with you.
It sounds as though you think for your childrens' sakes you should give your M a fair shot so even if you walk away at the end of the day, you will know you did all you could. To do that you will have to be honest and sincere and all I think you can do is tell your W you are working on things and you HOPE those feelings of love etc will reappear. Retro is meant to be very good at rekindling those feelings if they are there. Why not give it a go - what have you got to lose?
UP,
Saffie is 100% right -- I over-reacted in my response. I thought better of it after I posted it, realizing that it does not convey the point I need to make well. I realize that you would not be here in these forums asking these questions unless you were open-minded enough to really
consider salvaging your M. At the same time, I don't believe you
really want to make it your policy to deny someone your honesty and to betray their trust, except merely as a point of rhetorical conjecture.
Thanks, Saffie, for getting me to correct my heavy-handed response. I guess I am still quite a bit sensitive to the mere suggestion of the dismissal of trust and honesty by a spouse.
UP,
If you're only in the M for the sake of your children, don't succumb to a life of misery. If the kids are the only reason you're staying, then begin connecting with your W through family activities. Look at it this way - your children will benefit greatly from parents who show them how to be a loving couple.
And why not start with the simple things your W is asking for? The things that don't involve physical affection, like simple conversation - current events, your day at work, her day at work (or home), etc. Why not ask her about her aspirations and encourage her to go after them? You said yourself that she has been a very supportive W to you. Why not return the caring behavior(s)?
Thank her for the little things. Taking out the trash, doing the laundry, preparing dinner, whatever she does for you. If you can act appreciative even before you feel it, there's a good chance that loving feelings will follow. Act as if your R is as caring as you'd like it to be. You may find that these small attitude adjustments could lead to more positive and permanent pattern of interactions with your W.
Was there ever a time when things were good? What was happening during those times? Please don't come back and say there weren't any at all. There had to be. You just have to break down that wall to see those moments.
Oh yeah, and above all else, your W DOES deserve honesty. If the shoe were on the other foot, you'd feel the same way.
nocodes- you are right about needing to take a break from any and all relationships - that's actually what I'm doing right now to reassess. but i think you may have misunderstood what i was saying about honesty. what i was saying was this - W reasonably wants honesty, and she reasonably wants me to express my love for her in an affectionate manner. sadly, i do not feel this love for her - while there have been good times, I cannot rekindle the flame (and sincerely doubt it was ever a flame, as opposed to a detente in which we managed to get along). So where does that leave me when I receive the question from W: "Do you love me? How do you feel about me?" I can sputter on about respect and appreciation for parenting and building a warm home, but I can't talk about HER directly. And the more I dance, and avoid those words we both know she wants to hear, the more it hurrts her. So invariably I am beating her with the Truth.
Plenty of friends and family have suggested that I try a little "diplomacy" - translated as lying. But this is what i feel I've been doing all along - 12+ yrs. I am unwilling to continue living like that. On the bright side, the ominous warning I hear from others - "your marriage will never be the same, no matter what, after the affair"- is no threat to me - I never want that marriage back anyway. Clearly if I am to continue, it will have to be in a far different light and way than I have lived thus far.
To that end, thanks for the heads up saffie on Retrouvaille, I will look into that.
Puppy---
no post was deleted by us.
sg
UP - are there any books that you might consider recommending to your wife? You seem to have read a few of them on the subject and if she hasn't taken action to try to understand what has happened, and what is happening, she may want to start now. If nothing else than for her sake and for the kids.
Up
W reasonably wants honesty, and she reasonably wants me to express my love for her in an affectionate manner. sadly, i do not feel this love for her - while there have been good times, I cannot rekindle the flame (and sincerely doubt it was ever a flame, as opposed to a detente in which we managed to get along).
Please tell me that you ARE aware that these feelings are the usual ones when someone has been involved with an OP. That's what the endorphins generated by the A make you feel - they also make your brain rewrite history in order for you to be able to justify your actions - after all no-one wants to feel the bad guy/gal.
I am not 'having a go' here, Up, I am just stating the biological facts. My H thought he was in love with OP but only a few months after recommitting he told me, (without any prompting),that he hadn't really loved OW. Now if you asked him that at the beginning of me knowing about the A he would have said the opposite. Once H and I got things sorted and back on track he changed. I am glad you are going to look at Retro and give this a shot. I agree with Going Forward though, if you do all this and still feel after giving it a proper try that you are just staying for the children, then that's not so good. Plenty of people do stay for that reason alone, but personally that was not enough for us. I didn't want to waste more years on a M that wasn't going to work and lose precious years to such misery,-(I didn't include time trying to work on the M in the wasted years category- I owed my M and my family that). Luckily for me it didn't come to that and the M was renewed.
I wish you luck - don't forget to let us know how you get on - either way. Please be sensitive though to those on this forum who are in great pain after discovering infidelity. It is very useful to hear things frm the betrayer's point of view but if put across insensitively it really hurts. That is not to belittle the hurt you are going through; just an observation.
Michael - yes, we've both been doing a lot of reading and sharing of books. I think W's biggest issue is obsessing over the EA details, and needing constant assurances that I am not ready to give. I AM ready to give, and I DO give assurances around not repeating the EA- because at the end of the day this was the wrong way to deal with issues, and if need be, end the M. Having the affair was WRONG WRONG WRONG - i know this ethically and morally - but (and I only offer this sparingly because i understand some readers on this forum will have a hard time hearin this)- i do not regret or feel remorse to feel such love in my life - perhaps down the road I will come off this high (endorphin-related, according to many)- and determine that it was the worse kind of satanic temptation - a promise of happiness on this earth at the expense of hurting others, but for now it actually feels like Love. And I don't feel wrong for experiencing it.
saffie - thanks again for the insight.
I'm going to be off these boards for a while, but I really appreciate all of the insight and suggestions I've heard here. I wish all of you luck in finding and maintaining emotional stability and fulfillment in your lives.
UP
me-35
W34
D11,D8,S6
M12yrs
EA 6/20-11/12/07
S 10/12-11/12/07
S2/7-present
Puppy---
no post was deleted by us.
sg
Hmmm; strange. I could have sworn I replied to "UP" when he said that he was no longer "in love with" his wife with something like:
"Are you sure it's not just the well-publicized 're-writing of marital history'?? Have you sent any love letters/notes/cards to your wife in the past few years that would indicate that you were, in fact, 'in love' with her?"
thanks.
Strange that it's been deleted then, huh.
UP,
I wouldn't worry about whether or not I felt guilt and what that means, or sad because I left the "love of my life" (OW)..... try to just worry about today and the friendship you are building or rebuilding with your wife. And creating a great family with your children and their mom.
I think you can be honest and tell your wife that your feelings are "unsettled." Tell her you know what's right and wrong and want to keep your family together, be with your kids and try to create a great family and a good marriage. Tell her you want to work on being a wonderful husband and father, and that's your goal. Tell her feelings take time to rebuild. Unfortunately, it may to be difficult to "love" your wife right now. She may be a little emotional for about a year or so. Even a short affair can take a good year or two to work though. The damage can be pretty heavy. Good luck to you. I think you are wise to want to stay with your family and raise your own children. I do admire people when they make that choise and I believe in the long run you will be most content with your family and your kids....
Puppy,
The post you're referring to was on gsr1's thread.
My apologies to the moderator, then. Too much paranoia around this place lately!!!
I guess because of all the deleted posts recently. What happened to ChocEyes? I haven't seen him post in ages! Karen43
Yeah, what did happen to that guy?
i tried that book -it was useful, but also glossed over the areas of "what is remorse? how do i know if I'm feeling it?" and "am I really committed? what does it mean to be committed?"
no one, and I mean, NO ONE has addressed these two topics in all of the literature I've seen on marriage, infidelity, and divorce.
That should also sum up your question as to what committment is.
AmyC
Former MLCer and WAW
UP,
I am going to give you a piece of advice, tell her everything. She asks a question answer it, HONESTLY. I am speaking from experance on both sides of the fence. I just ended things with OM, and H had A a couple of years ago. When H had his I wanted to know everything, when I say everything, I mean everything. And H thought that he owed it to me to tell me what happened, how, where and all of that. It really helped me move though the process of starting to trust again. That is something if you are willing to stay and work on things you need to rebuild. Now that the shoe is on the other foot, I am the one having to answer those questions.
just my two cents.
UP, I was in the same situation as you except on the other side - sounds like where your BS is. We got married because of a pregnancy (there was really no other reason but we were trying to do the right thing). I always looked in the mirror and told myself I loved him, but I wondered if we would have been together if it weren't for our son. I never said this out loud though. WE stayed faithful and had another kid at a good moment, but here it is 8 years later and I found out he cheated about 10 months ago. Still I wanted him to stay because of our kids, and because I felt like he owed it to us. He hasn't had contact with AP (I don't think, and I snoop!) but he seems the same as before - like he's not really into the marriage. I have to admit that I really wanted him to stay because I don't want to break up our family, but we always talk about whether we would have gotten married at all if it weren't for the kid. If I'm honest, I don't think I would have married him either. I'm truley shattered by the A but also not sure I can go on living with someone that I can't connect with. I know I would leave the minute our kids graduate. I am wondering if the affair is giving me a good reason to end it. I want my kids to grow up knowing what a loving relationship is. As it is, we're either silent or fighting, and he always seems distant. We even tried Retrouvaille and tho it was a great way to communicate without our normal screaming and for me to forgive the affair, we also realized that if we're honest, neither one of us has ever been "into" our relationship. Are we just each other's jail sentence. We're thinking of S now becaise not sure if either one has it in us anymore.
Anyway, speaking from a BS perspective, if you can really give her love, you should stay. Not just for the kids tho - I think other people have said this too. Obligation and love aren't the same and I think my kids - even tho at 8 and 6 they are pretty little still - can sense that there isn't love between us.
tornin2
Me, BS 32
Him WH 34
DS 8, DS 6
Trying R but not sure we're feeling it
Thinking of S
I want my kids to grow up knowing what a loving relationship is.
Good luck! If that were so easy there wouldn't be so many divorces or relationship books out there. And chances of things working out well with a second (or third) marriage are even slimmer. Honestly, few divorced people I know are ever able to do that (at least for any length of time... those "love" feelings typically end when the good and bad stuff in a relationship start emerging... and they always do). Unfortunately, statistics are heavily against it.
Anyway, speaking from a BS perspective, if you can really give her love, you should stay. Not just for the kids tho - I think other people have said this too. Obligation and love aren't the same and I think my kids - even tho at 8 and 6 they are pretty little still - can sense that there isn't love between us.
So what's this definition of love here? I'm not saying there aren't good reasons for a divorce. But oftentimes people think pretty negatively of their situation and later regret leaving it because the relationships they find end up being worse... and, not only that, they have to raise, or live with, someone else's kids (who hate them), and only visit their own children (who love them).
Is that gamble worth it?