Divorcebusting.com
Posted By: NoCodeBlues If I Could Change The World... - 11/28/07 07:43 PM
Well, my last thread locked.

Time to start a new one, with a new title.

(Clapton's work comes to mind, so...)
Posted By: fightingirish Re: If I Could Change The World... - 11/28/07 08:31 PM
Like the tune!

\:\)

tal
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: If I Could Change The World... - 11/28/07 09:19 PM
Thanks, Tal,

I forgot to post the lyrics:

Change The World.

If I could reach the stars
Pull one down for you
Shine it on my heart
So you could see the truth
That this love I have inside
Is everything it seems
But for now I find
It's only in my dreams

That I can change the world
I would be the sunlight in your universe
You will think my love was really something good
Baby, if I could change the world

If I could be king
Even for a day
I'd take you as my queen
I'd have it no other way
And our love will rule
In this kingdom we have made
Till then I'd be a fool
Wishin' for the day

That I can change the world
I would be the sunlight in your universe
You will think my love was really something good
Baby, if I could change the world
Baby, if I could change... the world

I could change the world
I would be the sunlight in your universe
You will think my love was really something good
Baby, if I could change the world
Baby, if I could change the world
Baby, if I could change the world
Posted By: LL44 Re: If I Could Change The World... - 11/28/07 11:48 PM
A new thread. \:\) \:\)
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: If I Could Change The World... - 11/29/07 06:01 AM
Yes, a new thread.

<journaling>
I just got up now because I couldn't settle down to sleep, and then I remembered why...

So I sent W an email just a minute ago, all it said was "...200 Days now..." and nothing else. (I left it for her to ponder, if she dares.)

Yes, that's right -- today marks 200 days for me.




Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: If I Could Change The World... - 11/30/07 04:50 AM
Been feeling down today, and very overworked.

Got a terse reply from W on my brief "200 days" message, saying "I still don't know what you're talking about. Is this your idea of communication?"

She left me a voicemail too. I had made the mistake of mentioning to her that I was taking a vacation day tomorrow, and she is already asking me to use part of it to help her out. She scheduled an appointment at a portrait studio for our 2 S's to get their picture taken, but she can't make it -- so she want's me to take them instead since its my day off. She wants to work on baking Christmas cookies and then head into her office (yeah, sure -- where the OM is, no doubt.)

I don't mind extra time with my kids, but I also feel I shouldn't be enabling her to pawn her responsibilities off on me, especially when we are separated (hello?) and I am not going to be so accommodating to her needs and wants if we end in D. I feel like she needs to start recognizing and feeling the impact of these consequences.

I had to work late this evening, and so I called to talk o my kids from my office. W decided to ask again about me taking the boys to have their picture taken. W also commented, again, on my email to her, snidely saying, "I figured out what you're trying to imply -- Is this how you think you communicate?!" She went on to lambast me for poor, ineffectual communication skills. She said my obscure little remarks like that are representative of my problems and why our M failed. She said I have not shown any ability to be able to talk to her about how I am feeling or to say anything that has any depth or meaning.

Folks, at this last I nearly lost it. I was tired and irritable already from working so late, and while I got angry, I kept my cool. I told her that other than this one little email, I had been conversing with her via email and giving very heartfelt expositions for where I stand. She is just not listening. I said if anyone is failing the need for communication, she was. W has yet to reply to my prior email where I asked her to offer her thoughts, but she has not. I basically told her I was disappointed she was trying to make me out as having inadequate communication skills, when anyone seeing the essays I wrote to her would know otherwise.

I've stewed on this all evening, and will continue to do so. But I am so disgusted with W right now that I might be glad to divorce her, should it come to that.
Posted By: LL44 Re: If I Could Change The World... - 11/30/07 05:42 AM
She makes the appt to do a photo shoot, then asks YOU to take them?? Geesh. Like you said, you will never regret time with your kids, but geesh.


Quote:
She said I have not shown any ability to be able to talk to her about how I am feeling or to say anything that has any depth or meaning


She has got to portray you as nearly impossible to deal with or reason with...ammunition and all. She is just spewing, trying to spin your wheels for whatever reason. Last ditch effort to push you away...not sure...But feet don't fail you now..you are doing so well. Let it roll off you.....

Quote:
But I am so disgusted with W right now that I might be glad to divorce her, should it come to that.


I hear ya mister.
Posted By: tryingtoholdon Re: If I Could Change The World... - 11/30/07 02:49 PM
I am curious about her comment about you not saying anything heartfelt. It sounds like maybe she hasn't given up on the thought of you two getting back together. Do you think maybe she is wanting you to say that you love her so much and want her back. It just seems like a weird comment. Or maybe she wanted you to say I really miss making love to you it has been 200 days and I miss you. I miss us.

I know that is easier said then done because you are hurting also. It just again seems like she is fishing or needing something. It could be the lack of communication bothered her a lot during the marriage. But maybe it is spew because you were open with her all the time. With my husband he is terrible at communicating. He tends to bottle stuff up and never validates me in any way. A lot of times that hurts and pushes me further away from him. In fact I am starting to consider divorce because I just don't know if I can keep doing this. He changes for a week if we have a serious talk but things always go back to the same way that got us in trouble before.

Sorry for my tangent about me. I guess the point is to it that I am also fearful of things going back the same way. I am not happy that way.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: If I Could Change The World... - 11/30/07 04:12 PM
Lwb, Trying, et al.,

I really appreciate you all for being here and really listening to what I have to say -- the stark contrast to the way my WAW fails to hear me makes her "fog" so glaring.

Trying, I have considered some of what you have said. I just don't know. My W might have some schizophrenic part of her that wants us to get back together. In fact, in one of her recent emails she said something that made me wonder, "I feel peaceful now except when I make myself consider getting back together with you." -- which tells me that she is at least considering it.
I thought briefly about mentioning this to W, but I know the most she'd ever admit would be that she was only thinking of our sons' well being -- she'd say she would never consider getting back together for any other reason.

I think the main thing with W is that she feels she must always keep me on the defensive. She's still in adversarial mode, but she wants to encourage me to communicate with her. Why? I have to ask. It's not like she fully reciprocates with me. I express my thoughts, my opinions, my feelings on philosophical and spiritual levels. I have even reiterated to her my position on D, our M and that I want her back, in every way -- of course, while also telling her I don't want our old marriage back and being prepared to move on, with or without her.

Her response? If she ignores what I say entirely and does not respond at all, then she rehashes her old beefs with me and replays the whole MLC/WAW litany. I never hear what her hopes and goals are, what she feels (other than contempt for me or remorse for what I have done to our marriage), what she values, nothing other than what she's framed in her precious Separation Agreement. I certainly have seen nothing that would indicate she's wanting to search her soul, to grow and put her own problems behind her -- except where she considers me to be the only problem. She gives me the terse responses that rehash everything she's said to me, by voice or in writing.

I admit that I have the dreaded "male disease" of being poor at expressing my feelings. But with her, in earlier times, I had no such problems -- I could and did bear everything with her. Unfortunately, as the years weared on and as my depression set in, I became more withdrawn. With us failing to spend adequate quality time with each other, as the demands of children and work grew and kept us apart, our intimacy has waned. I did begin to neglect her and our relationship at the same time I was neglecting my own needs. I couldn't see it then, but I do now and I take ownership for my sins in that. So, yes, the lack of communication that built up over time is something she continually draws upon.

But now, she is guilty of the same (and so much more). She's the one who's withdrawn and non-communicative, and even (in her own words) "cold and unloving".

It makes me wonder, yet again, whether the two of us have flipped 180 degrees out of phase with each other -- switching roles in this R.

Trying, talking about your sitch is very much helpful to you, me and us all. It's very much in context and gives us points to consider in our own predicaments. Your description of your H is pretty much how I was to my W in the months and years leading up to the bomb. The thing is the changes and the talks cannot be a temporary thing. They have to be made a part of one's life and ingrained in one's soul. That is a tall order for any of us, because it means sacrificing things that we thought gave us comfort. It's far from easy and takes time to find our way, but we have to try. Perhaps your H really needs to seek regular C to help him in this -- I don't recall where you said he is in his head right now. Are you in MC?
Posted By: fightingirish Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/01/07 05:20 PM
How are you nocodes??

tal
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/01/07 10:14 PM
Hi, tal,

I'm okay.

I am just feeling the pain of limbo. I cannot adequately communicate with W, either because there are some things that we shouldn't ask or say (for the sake of DB/DR), or because W refuses to be open and honest even when she expects the same from me -- and then denies it and turns it around as if I am the one being that way.

And if I don't carry the conversation the whole time, it just goes nowhere and then W blames me for our failure to communicate. I really am caught between a rock and a hard place. I want to detach so badly for myself, but I have to also give this M as much opportunity as I can for the sake of my family.

I guess I am beginning to cycle back towards depression and fretting over whether I am really seeing even any baby steps. And with the holidays among us, I can sense it getting worse. I know to expect this, but it doesn't make it any easier to accept. At the least I can say to myself, "What have I got better to do?"

I've also feel I've got to start keeping by expositions a little more reigned in. Over on Scott's (EmtnRllrCstr) thread I gave this long-winded speech in response to his comment to me. I went off preaching about my spiritual opinion when I realize it was as much for my ears as for Scott's or anyone else's -- I find I am also trying to reinforce my stance for myself as well.

See? I did it with this response too.

More importantly, getting back to lighter subject matter, how are you and your sons?
Posted By: fightingirish Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/01/07 11:20 PM
nocodes,

No worries, really everyone on here is here to listen.. we all go off on sometimes preaching a bit, im guilty of it.

It seems that with your w, you can't win.. Please don't slip backwards, be there for your sons they will need you. Don't let her get the better of you, try and stay strong. I know easier said than done.

Boys are great aren't they.. although my are attached at the hip most times, I think mainly because my H is gone a lot working. my 5 year old still sleeps with me, gotta stop that soon, I never get any sleep!

My H is due home in about 2 hours or so.. I cringe everytime is works long shifts because he's tired and cranky and I usually pay for it one way or another. I have to try and keep the kids quiet so he can sleep.. not an easy task. I hope he doesn't take on any more of these kinds of jobs because I had dealing with the aftermath. Things are status quo with us.. for now.

There something that bothers me always though, ever since he did these things to me, Ive haven't felt the same for him. Don't get me wrong I do love him, but its not the blind love you have for someone in the beginning, you become cynical, I don't trust anything. I just hope and pray that im doing the right thing for my boys, because as far as Im concerned they are my top priority.. I know its not supposed to be that way, your spouse is supposed to be more important, but for me and everything ive been through with this man, its just not that way. I think if I didn't have children then I probably wouldn't be here. I would have left.

Sorry to write a book.. you were worried about your post:)

Have a good nite, I'll try to be on tomorrow... H will be around so its hard to get on.

take care of yourself please!

((hugs))

Tal
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/03/07 04:09 PM
Thanks, TAL,

Yeah, boys are such fun. I know that girls are great too -- I've got three darling nieces that I love to death -- but the boys can be such a hoot sometimes. S3 was for a long time following his older brothers lead on loving cars and planes and such stuff, but now he's really shown his own interest in dinosaurs, so much more so than his brother. His own little boyish fascination, and it's so endearing. One of the gifts I gave him for his b'day was a little plush, stuffed triceratops. He now carries it around like a teddy bear. (The frill on the triceratops sometimes flops forward and it make it look like a baby bonnet.)

On your H, I know at times I too have been where he is in my own job. Every so often we get a project that requires me to pull one of these sorts of 30-hour stints to get it through implementation. It is a necessary evil in what I do, especially now I am back as a manager, and I regret the time it takes away from my family. While in years past W said nothing (leaving me to assume she understood), I now know she has taken these personally, however, and assumes that it is something I prefer, rather than being with her and my sons. It's childish of her, and petty -- and goes to show how out of touch with me we have become.

Originally Posted By: tiredandlost

There something that bothers me always though, ever since he did these things to me, Ive haven't felt the same for him. Don't get me wrong I do love him, but its not the blind love you have for someone in the beginning, you become cynical, I don't trust anything. I just hope and pray that im doing the right thing for my boys, because as far as Im concerned they are my top priority.. I know its not supposed to be that way, your spouse is supposed to be more important, but for me and everything ive been through with this man, its just not that way. I think if I didn't have children then I probably wouldn't be here. I would have left.


TAL, you have it right. The way it is supposed to be, is that we're supposed to put our spouses ahead of our parents (cleaving to them instead) and even ahead of our children. The reason being is that at some point our children too will leave us and they in turn must cleave to their spouses. At the end of our days, we are meant to still be putting our M and our spouses ahead of all others (excepting God).

But under these circumstances, because our spouses have opted to leave and abandon their commitments to us, we have to shift our priorities to place our children's needs ahead of theirs. The purpose of the M is for the family. Our children are the innocent members of the family, so our concern naturally turns to them, as it should be.

And it is natural to feel less for this stranger in our midst, and to distrust them. I look at my W and I still feel the passion welling up within me for that person I fell in love with, and I also feel the pain for the loss of who she was. I am not at ease with this stranger that has taken her place, and I will never be able to trust this person, not until she allows her inner soul to rekindle again, and to burn off this alien identity she is harboring.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/03/07 09:18 PM
<journaling>

S6 was sick again yesterday. He woke up a little after 5 AM, calling out to me. He threw up and I got a waste paper can to hold for him while he spilled his cookies. It meant missing Church, which I had been looking forward to. Oh, well. I felt sorry for my little boy -- I know how bad it can be.

W thanked me for taking the boys for their pictures -- she says she'll reimburse me for the cost later this month (she already owes me for mortgage/rent, being the first of the month. I am going to be tight on funds until I get paid this week. She just can't seem to get that in her head though.)

Yesterday afternoon I had a session with my C. He's suggesting I take a firmer stance with W and to call her out on some of these unfair attacks on myself. My instinct would be to agree with him, that I should not let her walk all over me, but then she thinks I am too argumentative as it is. I asked him how smooth should I make the path back to me. C said basically that if she doesn't respect me and my concerns she's not likely to want to come back anyway -- I'd have to agree: she won't tolerate someone she doesn't respect. C suggested several things, some of which I agree with and some of which I know are not in the DB/DR game plan (I did not tell him this) -- but on further consideration, given all the cheeseless deadends I've been down of late, I have decided to change tactics.

I'm a little tired of not being perfectly honest and candid with W just to spare her feelings. I have had enough of this one-sided tiptoeing around the eggshells, and I believe that "speaking the truth with love" is a better approach.

I wrote what just might end up being a final email to W, depending on how she takes it. It will either bring her into the conversation as an open and sincere participant, or she will get angry, let her pride rule her head, and ignore me. I sent it after she argued with me on the phone about (again) my lack of communication.

Here it is <warning: it might be a little long>:

"Perhaps I should try this one more time.

You continue to tell me that I am a failure in communication. And yet you seem to expect me to always be the one who opens up and spills his guts, while you get to sit back and do nothing but criticize.

I have told you I accept my failures and my contributions to the demise of our marriage -- and you continue to revel in my acknowledgments of those transgressions. But you have shown zero interest in taking full ownership of your contributions to the demise of this marriage. Somehow the only thing we can seem to agree upon is that I screwed up -- but we never ever focus on your own transgressions that have led us to this place. Funny how that works, huh?

Despite your misconceptions, I have been working on myself -- and getting my spiritual, mental and physical house in order -- and, no, I am far from perfect. You say that there have been no actions and no signs of improvement on my part. You are one to judge! Because you, in your mind, place the onus for what is wrong squarely on me, you have shown no interest in working on yourself.

But I get it -- yeah, you are perfect. In fact, you have other people telling you so -- so why should you change? Right? Growth is not something you have considered for yourself. No, you are already there and you "have a chance with someone" who already thinks you're perfect.

No, its much easier to demonize me and run away from your problems by pinning all of them on me. So keep me on the defensive all the time so we never have to consider what's up with you.

W, I love you.
Lord Almighty above help me, I don't know why, but I still do.

I hate like hell that you are doing what you are doing to us and our family. It is the most horrific pain I have ever felt. And yet I still can't help but love you. I am so utterly disappointed in you and still so mortified by this betrayal -- you are so much better than this. I know that.

I truly understand the pain you've been through, but this is too much. And you insist that nothing you have seen or experienced in these five months have moved you in any way other than your selfish, destructive path. Furthermore, you state that you predict the future that nothing I say or do will ever convince you to alter this course. Whatever. You're not trying.

So, again, what is the point of you and I communicating, especially with regards to our relationship? The pretense of better parenting to children in a broken family? Sorry, but that does not require me to tell you anything about my heart, my soul and my feelings; No, that only requires we speak only of our sons. Under the proposed circumstances for divorce, you will no longer be privy to what goes on with my personal life. And once the big D happens you will have abdicated any privilege of knowing about who I am and who I grow to be. We can and will talk about our sons, but that requires nothing else.

I have said it before, and I mean it: I am not going to stand in your way -- it would do me no good even if I tried. I hate divorce; I don't believe in divorce. Short of physical abuse, repeated adultery or other wanton sinful transgressions, divorce is wrong and a cowardly way to approach life's issues. But I hate what our marriage has devolved into as well. I miss the warm, loving, joyful woman I was once married to. I miss my spiritual partner, that beautiful soul I fell in love with.

I cannot stand what this has done to us. This constant, unrepentant hostility I feel from you is so beneath the woman I know. And it rends my soul to have to defend myself and argue with you; I can't stand what we do to ourselves.

My goal, were you really genuine in pursuing marriage counseling with me, was to rebuild the marriage from the ground up. To start over. To have a marriage reborn, with God's blessings. A born-again marriage, so to speak. And, no, it would not have been easy. Nothing worthwhile in life ever is. It would have meant hard work. Very hard work, and difficulties at times. But the work is necessary for a marriage to last, I know that now. A marriage takes both commitment and a continual effort to keep it healthy. And still I have become more than willing to give it my all. I have had my ideas in this regard. But I know the rewards for such would be beyond measure.

I can understand, though, why that scares you. You just don't want to make that effort. Commitment is tough. I understand. I am sure its so much easier to run away and be drawn into the emotional highs of infatuation with another person. Takes no effort at all.

It just disappoints me in you. I am not trying to shame you into anything -- Heaven forbid. If you don't have the strength of character to even try, then so be it -- I need to move on. I cannot work on this M alone.

I think we can try to be cordial with each other, if only for our sons' sake, but I don't think we can be friends any longer -- not really, not while you are pursuing an A with another person.

Should you ever decide that you would like to work things out between us, then let me know and we can really and honestly talk about it. Keep and mind that as time goes on I can't make any promises -- because things do change and I don't intend to sit still forever, but of course that all depends on where God leads me.
"

I know, get the 2x4's ready -- it ain't proper DB'ing.

I followed it up, for whatever it's worth, with the lyrics to a song that keeps playing on my mind of late.

Another Try

All the things I felt and never shared
All the times that she was lonely with me there
The tears I wouldn't let fall from my eyes
And how I let her go without a fight

The reasons I'm alone I know by heart
But I don't want to spend forever in the dark
I swear next time I'll hang on for dear life
If love ever gives me another try

There's no changing things that we regret
The best that we can hope for is one more chance
If the hands of time could just move in reverse
I wouldn't make the same mistake again with her

The reasons I'm alone I know by heart
But I don't want to spend forever in the dark
I swear next time I'll hang on for dear life
If love ever gives me another try

The reasons I'm alone I know by heart
But I don't want to spend forever in the dark
I swear next time I'll hang on for dear life
If love ever gives me another try


I've probably screwed up big time with this. She keeps drawing me back in when I need to detach more.
Posted By: LL44 Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/04/07 02:02 AM
WOW. Just WOW. nocode. I am speechless, that is an amazing letter. Simply amazing. It might not be DB'ing, but I think, like my night last night, it might have to be done. HUGS

Hope S6 feels better.
Posted By: Hurtin4certain Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/04/07 02:29 AM
Nocode.. before you send that letter, ask yourself, is this going to bring me closer to my goal?

Sit on that letter for a few days, you might just be emotional right now. If after CAREFUL thought and consideration, you still feel like you need to send it, go ahead.

You have to remember that your W isnt really your W RIGHT NOW, she is addicted to this theory that life will be so grand without you.

I think if you can detach well enough, you can get the point of your letter across without even having to send it. Show her you are letting go by your actions, not by a letter that very well might push her further away.
Posted By: JoieDeVivre Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/04/07 02:35 AM
I second LWB ... Wow. No 2x4's from me. Your goal was to speak the truth with love, I think you accomplished that.

You get a A in my opinion!
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/04/07 03:13 AM
Thanks, Lwb, Hurtin', Joie, all, for your support and kind words.

I don't know if this will help or harm my situation. Time will tell.

Hurtin', you're probably right that I should have held onto this letter a little longer before deciding to send it. Usually I do. But it has been several days now since the last major exposition I wrote and sent to W, in which I asked her to stop criticizing and for once add something constructive to the conversation by offering her own thoughts and feelings. She's been silent on that, and evasive whenever I try to follow it up.

So I have had a lot of time to think and ponder what I would say. And after my counseling session yesterday, when she began to ask about my session (again) and complained about me shutting her out (as if!) as another sign of my lack of communication, it led to another disagreement. That argument was cut short when she decided it was really beginning to focus on her instead of just me. She claimed she had to get off the phone to attend to our S's, but I knew better and said, "okay, go ahead and run then."

W said "I'm not running. I really have to go."
I said, "Fine. Good bye. Good Night."

I duly noted that she never called back to finish the conversation either, much as I expected, when she surely could have after our S's were put to bed. So I took all my thoughts and wrote them up and sent them to her in an email (which I posted above).

So, for better or worse, the email was already sent, late last night. And given that my W has shown no respect for me -- and that respect is a necessary requisite for us to ever be able to work things out -- allowing her to use me as her punching bag and failing to defend myself or the truth for the sake of keeping the peace is not helpful after all. It's a cheeseless tunnel that I am not going down anymore.

I have since spoken to W on the phone. And while she allowed a few "pregnant" pauses occur (with the possible expectation I might say something more), we stuck to talking about our S's (especially about S6's fever.)

I am sure she's most likely gotten the mail by now, no doubt. And so far, it looks like she's ignoring it. If she follows the pattern I have been observing for these many months, she won't say anything about it, since there's nothing she wants to admit to me about herself anymore.

No expectations. No surprise. If this proves out, then I'm done with her.

Posted By: LL44 Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/04/07 03:21 AM
If you keep up with jar's thread, he sent a letter and it was basically ignored. WAS's are good at that. But you sent it, she read it, and whether she chooses to do anything is up to her. You have let go..and will 'let God'....at this point.

HUGS
Posted By: Sara Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/04/07 03:31 AM
Blue,

The letter starts off on the attack and is demonizing. (I know, it is retaliatory demonization, but still not good in a letter.) That said, starting with "W, I love you." It gets good and deep and meaningful. You could be thorough and purge all instances of referring to what she does wrong, but I will not be that strict. You make your point -- she is not perfect. Perfect people don't have affairs. Period. I'd say, go ahead and send it without the opening remarks. If you are going to be that deep and honest, don't drive the reader away first.

Never mind, I see it's sent, and she has no response. That is such an insult when someone is open and honest with you.
Posted By: LL44 Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/04/07 03:33 AM
(I think he already sent it...)
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/04/07 03:49 AM
Sara, you're right. Attacks are not conducive to getting one's message across.

I've pulled my punches with her for a very long time now, and even in these opening offensives, I still am holding back quite a bit. There's a [b]lot[/b] for which W will have to face our Maker for some day.

But she probably did not get past the first paragraph.
Posted By: Dr LOve Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/06/07 03:35 AM
Nocode,

don't know ifI am late on this but sara is right. She has "prof read" my leters. I am the kingof leters. then agian like someone else said my W did not realyy ignore the letters butthey did not do anyting but maybe push her deeper into confusion.
got ta go head ache is comming back.
I know you have heard this before and I kow every sitch is differant. but one thing I do know IF it is going to work out in your favor IT WILL TAKE TIME. Hey if it does not work out at least you gave it your best

take care buddy

Husband
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/06/07 03:41 AM
I guess I'm due for an update.

I was just telling my coworker today about how I am pretty much "done" with W unless she begins to start communicating back with me. I have predicted that W will likely act like I never sent the email letter I posted above -- just as she tries to downplay or ignore any attempt by me to turn the focus of the conversation back on her, in even the smallest degree. I also predicted to my friend that W's pattern would be that if she cannot attack me directly on our failed R, her next target would be to attack my fatherhood of my 2 S's.

Well this evening I was proven right. After I called to say good night to our sons, W accused me of poisoning her relationship with S6. She said that I told S6 that I am too busy working to maintain two households to play with him -- and that was Mommy's fault.

I told W that I said no such thing. The most I've ever said with regards to that was that I apologized to my S's for those weekends that I am on-call and have to sometimes break away to handle work-related issues, but in no way did I imply that I had to work extra because of W. She said that the only reason S6 would feel so sorry for his father was if I were playing he victim and making her out to be the bad guy. I told her I did no such thing.

W finally asked, "Well, how do you think S6 could possibly have gotten such an idea in his head unless you were doing that very thing?"

Resisting being baited, I calmly told W, "You believe what you want to believe." And then ended the conversation.

Afterwards, I got to thinking about this. My first thought is that W is making more out of something much less that S6 might have said, or S6 repeated something, but he really didn't hear it from me. And I thought further about this -- part of me began to wonder if MIL is really diabolical enough to be planting these conversations in S6's mind. It sounds farfetched and normally I wouldn't give it any more thought, but the MIL has ready access to our son, and she has a motive, and I have also caught her on more than one occasion in outright lies and assassinating my character to elevate her position in our household, at my expense. So would she really stoop to weaving tales in S6's ears, hoping he would parrot them back before W? A crazy, paranoid thought, I know, but I can't help considering it.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/06/07 03:44 AM
Hey, husband, thanks. Hope you feel better.
Posted By: LL44 Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/06/07 03:56 AM
Oh please...someone...don't let MIL be *that* spiteful, that hateful....that would make me lose the thread of faith I have left in people. I don't think so. I think S6 probably said someting, and W's guilt took it the wrong way and she did what she does best...calls and blames you. UGH

You did the right thing by ending the talk.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/06/07 04:11 AM
Lwb, on further consideration, it's only a passing thought. All things else being equal, it's more likely W is again having another fit of the Alien Mindbenders again -- there's plenty of precedence for that, and no need to stretch for more complicated an explanation.
Posted By: fightingirish Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/06/07 11:48 AM
nocodes,

Trying to catch up on your stitch.. Good letter, and at this point, I know you have been calm and collected throughout and it was time to give it a "jolt" if you will. She is a real piece of work, trying to drag your S6 into this... it definately sounds like she is making up these stories in her alien head of hers.

Keep up the faith, either way i think you are in a good place in your mind, as much as it hurts, there needs to be a light at the end of the tunnel be it with you or without you.

i cannot believe she hasn't said anything about the letter though... that shows how messed up they are.

((hugs))

tal
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/06/07 09:47 PM
Speak of the devil, Tal....

It must be pretty darn cold outside today, 'cause H*ll just froze over -- my W responded to my email letter!

Surprise, surprise.

Here is her (rather terse) reply (edited to protect the innocent):

"Your words sound very good. But you still treat me like a mosquito. You didn't listen to my recommendation about how to time the payments from the joint bank account & you overdrafted it again. It bothers me. I bother you.
You acted like you resented my presence before we separated & I know that will just intensify as it has with other people you resent over the years & your job etc...... Why would I want to go back to that?"


I am giving this some time before crafting a reply -- or not sending a reply at all, if I so determine.

(The overdraft is a total non-issue -- the account has overdraft protection. I knew it was going to be close, but not that worried. I am not sure why she gets so upset about it -- other than her fumbling for some wedge issue to throw in my face. All part of the alien master plan to keep me on the defensive.)

I'm not falling for it anymore.
Posted By: fightingirish Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/06/07 10:30 PM
Holy crap, that was a weird response.. she answered nothing, and made not sense of anything...

But it does sound like there is hope, in a strange sort of way.

I have to think about this one:)

tal
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/07/07 04:50 AM
Originally Posted By: tiredandlost
Holy crap, that was a weird response.. she answered nothing, and made not sense of anything...


Funny thing is that even though I said I edited her response, I didn't really. I just removed her name/signature -- the rest is the unaltered text. So, yeah, this is precisely the sort of "feedback" I get from her. Maddening, huh?

And she accuses me of not being a good communicator.

Quote:
I have to think about this one:)


Yep, me too, obviously.
Posted By: Yoyowife Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/07/07 07:22 AM
NCB,
Sounds like you might have MIL problems too, join the crowd. Go read my latest thread. How did we get so lucky to have not only OP problems, but also MIL problems!
Posted By: fightingirish Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/07/07 01:33 PM
nocodes,

She's just a confusing person. I don't know how "simpleton" you have to get with her to make her understand.

I don't know if I'd answer her, because it just doesn't make sense.

I maybe would ignore what she has said and just "highlight" the strong points of your other email.

Just a thought.

tal
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/07/07 04:29 PM
Originally Posted By: tiredandlost
I don't know if I'd answer her, because it just doesn't make sense.


Tal, I wrote a draft letter last night, but I recognize how ludicrous her responses have been, and am wondering whether it might be futile to even respond to such fogginess, as you also note. Here's what I have so far:

"I am asking myself whether am I about to waste my breath once again...

You continually ascribe motives to my actions that are just not so. If you perceived any resentment against you, it was for your actions, not you. I have tried to tell you for a long time that you are not helping me by trying to "fix" me -- if you try to intercede in those times where I am experiencing anger, sadness and/or frustration with any given situation, it is no wonder that you end up making yourself the target for perpetuating those emotions. It was never supposed to be your responsibility, even as my spouse, to control how I feel. And then you take my emotions, directed at you or not, personally. In that you have been greatly misguided.

I have tried to tell you that. MC also tried to tell you that.

And yes, I am sorry to say that I no longer see you up high on a pedestal -- but is it that I knocked you off that pedestal or more that you jumped off? As the mother of our children I owe you the respect that deserves, even where you may not live up to it.

I know I have not been on a pedestal in your eyes for a very long time now. Whether I no longer deserve to be or not is immaterial. I am slowly getting to the place where your respect for me, or lack thereof, has no bearing on me, my mood or my life.

We both just need to practice a little more humility than we have in the past -- and realize we are ALL at the same level, humbled before the foot of Jesus' cross.
"


I am afraid I answered myself in the first sentence. I think it might be more prudent to just not say anything in response to this.
Posted By: saffie Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/07/07 04:57 PM
NoCodes,

This is just an observation but if you think you answered yourself in your first sentence then why bother putting your heart out there to be bruised again.

And when it comes to these pedestals just think hard. I had my H so high up on one. He said that it wasn't a compliment; it was an encumbrance. He enjoyed crumbling it.

Take care NoCodes.

Saffie
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/07/07 05:14 PM
Thanks, Saffie, I appreciate it.

Yes, that's is precisely the point. I am starting to realize that there is really nothing more to be said by me at this point. It's in her court now, and I need to give her her space, and put my focus back on me. She keeps saying we need to communicate, but she's not really doing so herself. All my efforts to accommodate her have done, so far, is to keep me from moving forward.

I am just going to file this letter away and move on.
Posted By: Yoyowife Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/07/07 05:24 PM
NCB,
All of the WAS certainly seem to be playing this no communication card, don't they? If they had communicated more with us in the beginning, perhaps there wouldn't be a need for this board!
Posted By: fightingirish Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/07/07 10:26 PM
no codes,

I agree with saffie.. Like I did say, I would let it lie at this point, she is either going to wake up or stay in this dream land of hers.

take care of you.. remember.

tal
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/08/07 03:06 AM
Thanks, Yoyo. Thanks, Tal.

I really appreciate all of you, more than words can express. I don't know what I would do without this forum and the chance to meet with such warm, caring and (most of all) truly understanding souls.
Posted By: fightingirish Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/08/07 01:56 PM
no codes,

That's what we are all here for .. to support eachother at the worst time of our lives... Everyone needs someone.

I hope you have an uneventful day..

\:\)

tal
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/11/07 04:54 AM
Ah, I guess it's time for an update <Uh, oh. Another book coming...>

I was in a pretty good mood this evening ( and most of the day). As I drove to tonight's DivorceCare meeting, I called to talk to my 2 S's, as usual, to catch them before bedtime. At the end, W started telling me she was planning to take our S's to see her aunt and uncle later this month, after Christmas. I asked her about the health of her sickly uncle, and while he's not doing well, somehow she segued us to saying something about how everything would be better "if I would just go ahead and sign the papers."

At first I didn't know what she was talking about, now how it related to the price of tea in China, just more alien nonsense, but then realized she was talking about her precious Separation Agreement (SA).

This started another disagreement. W insists that I need to sign her SA to make what we are supposedly abiding by legal and in writing. I told her I had not nor would I sign any of the drafts for her SA as written because I did not fully agree to the terms she had put in there. W responded that if I don't sign her SA then it was going to mean $65 to $100 an hour for a mediator, or even more for a lawyer, which was senseless and more money than either of us could afford. It would mean driving up our debt even more.

I responded that even mediation wouldn't be necessary if she would at least listen to and discuss my own counter offers and my own terms so we can reach a mutually-agreeable compromise. She complained that when she wrote the SA I was sitting near by and she "discussed" with me what she was putting into the document (Mind you, this was the very first week after the "bomb", when I was shell-shocked and too emotionally overwhelmed to be making a life-altering decision like that, without legal counsel or even proper consideration for my own interests. W was using one of the on-line legal forms vendors to put together her document -- and was trying to railroad me into terms unfair to me.) W thinks that I was fully in agreement with her terms, when we both know I told her then as well as now, that I disagree with her terms and believe she is leaving out stipulations that I want addressed. W shot back that she was not going to allow clauses that had nothing to do with either custody or with separating our finances -- she said I couldn't put any of that "irrelevant, silly stuff" about reconciliation or about restrictions on dating other into the agreement, as I had asked for before.

I told W that even for the terms she specified concerning finances and child custody (she is calling it, sneakily, "visitation". Hah! I wasn't born yesterday!), I don't agree with the terms she's drafted there. She asked how so. I told her for one thing I want not only joint legal custody, but joint physical custody of our S's.

W's response was "Wha-? How do you propose that would work?" I told her I already have custody on the two Weekend days, I would expect to have custody on one additional day during the week. I can pick them up on a Wednesday evening, they would stay with me overnight, and I would see them to the bus stop and preschool the next morning.

W said, "That won't work. How will this offer any consistency and continuity to S6's schedule? S6 doesn't need to have any additional disruptions in his life - how is this going to help that?"

I replied, "It won't offer any more drastic a change in his life than what he's already been suffering under this separation you have demanded."

W then took another tact. "But how are you going to be able to get them to where they need to be the next day? I thought your work was so demanding -- that's why we had to separate, because you value your job more than your children."

I replied, "I will make the adjustment, and my employer will have to get used to it."

W: "Even if it means you don't get to work until 10 Am that day?"
Me: "Yes."

Then W repeated one of her oft-quoted refrains whenever I do or say something that throws a monkey-wrench into her stereotyping of me, "I am sorry it took me leaving you before you would ______." (Fill in the blank.) In this case, "... before you would be your sons' father." She went further, "I guess my leaving you has proven to be a good thing, if it means you are getting to appreciate your sons and do all this for them."

That's when it began to spiral out of control. She was continuing to pat herself on the back for leaving me, and I began to try to refute this alien illogic. We started arguing more vehemently. She insisted that I was never going to change, and that she had to leave me for the sake of our sons (so why does she need me to actively be their father if I am such a horrible person?)

I asked her why was it necessary for us to communicate better, especially with regards to my counseling and my spiritual healing, when that has no bearing on the raising of our S's in separate households, as separate parents -- that would really be none of her business. If we are, in her opinion, irreconcilable and there is no way we could ever be together again as husband and wife, meaning we will no longer be one happy family, then why the pretense for us to have such personal talks (one-sided as they are, with me spilling my guts)? All we would need to exchange is impersonal information about our S's and nothing more.

W still evades the question. Instead she lobs grenades at me about how she can never and will never trust me ever again. Again, I ask, so why the pretense?

I then went anti-DB by telling her she knows nothing about what reconciliation really is. I told her she bristles at the very mention of the term and yet she hasn't even considered that there are degrees of reconciliation. I told her that without some minimal level of reconciling our differences, at the very least, we were not going to have much success in co-parenting our kids. And until then these one-sided conversations were pointless. As if to prove my point about her stubborn intolerance, W stated that we were not ever going to reconcile. To which I said, "Then we're never going to be able to have even a civil discussion about their well being. A first level of reconciliation means that both parents agree to and focus on being civil with each other at the very least. This is a long way off from a full reconciliation of the M, which you are so blindly dead set against."

I was quite testy with W by this time. I was sitting in the parking lot, late for going into my meeting, and I was trying to find some way to bring closure to this disturbing talk with W. I was fighting to keep from breaking down. She put me in such a dark mood, laying this whammy on me right before my Monday night meeting. I realized I had allowed her to drag me back into another R talk, a morass of senseless, angry words. She circled back around to the SA again, to which I asked, "Why? What's so important about a SA? I am true to my word. The agreement you sign, however, is not worth the paper its written on -- no more so than the one you signed 16 years ago."

W insists she's "done". She can never go back to being neglected like I did to her before. I told her, "In all honesty, do you really think I would want either of us to go back into that same situation as it was before? No. I care to much for you -- and myself -- to ever have that happen again."

I finally told W I had to go and ended the conversation. I went into my meeting a mass of frazzled nerves, trying to fight back the tears. She says she's done; well, I guess I am too. But the meeting (with a lead-off sermon on peace making, and a main topic of helping children during divorce) got me to thinking: maybe I am not being clear-headed enough -- I need to keep the welfare of my two little boys in mind.

After the meeting, I called W's cellphone to see if she wanted to finish our conversation, since I ended it so abruptly. She was still putting the boys to bed (after 8:30 AM on a school night) and would be too tired to talk tonight afterwards. She told me she sent me an email, and that we could discuss this via writing.

Here's what she sent:

"Well, I wouldn't mind if you had another day with the kids, but it would be
very detrimental for their week to be broken up. The teacher's will tell
you, it would be torture for S6 & harmful to S3. So you could do
Thurs. night or Sun night. I will update the separation agreement & when you
sign it at the bank with a notary present you can start taking them an extra
day.
Thank you,
W
"

W is still on this SA. Still.

And she is still not hearing me -- this was only one of many changes I have in mind for our so-called agreement.

I can't say that, at this point, I am opposed to the very idea of an SA -- just to the way W wants it to be worded. I am thinking though, that maybe these should be broken down into separate agreements -- a Custody Agreement, a Financial Separation Agreement, a Marital Separation Agreement. It might mean easier and more malleable terms for each, and which one can be altered without affecting the others. I have to think more on this, and gather some thoughts from others.

I am also giving serious thought to drafting a first-of-its-kind Reconciliation Agreement.
Posted By: Hurtin4certain Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/11/07 05:18 AM
No Code... I hate to say it man but its time to lawyer up. Do not sign anything in your present condition, trust me. You can potentially be making one of the biggest mistakes in your life by not knowing your rights as a father.

Your W is only thinking of herself right now, you need to think about No Code.

I know it sucks, Im in the same boat and filing for the Big D on Wednesday to protect my D.
Posted By: Sara Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/11/07 05:39 AM
I agree. I don't know if you need a lawyer, but you need the mediator. It would be worth it to me to pay $65.00 to avoid an hour of this kind of arguing. By the way, congratulations. You fought hard and actually won a concession from her. It's not easy.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/12/07 03:35 AM
Yes, I hate to say it, but it looks like I am headed for a contentious D. I have already had a free first counsel with a lawyer. But I don't feel I got a lot out of it -- they let me do most of the talking and give them my story, but they're holding out for a retainer before giving me any useful legal advice. I suppose you get what you pay for, but I can't say that impresses me much.

A friend of mine in my DivorceCare group works for a law firm - she offered to talk to her employers about whether they might have an opening to at least talk to me about my options. I may have to take her up on that offer if it materializes.

Last evening, one of the things W asked me about was whether I still had a homework sheet for S6 -- I had forgotten to pack it when dropping the boys off Sunday evening. Well I picked up my dry cleaning tonight, which is just right around the corner from the house -- so I decided to drop off the homework sheet. While they did not seem overly surprised to see me, the boys got all excited and wound up -- they had each worked on birthday cards for me (tomorrow is my birthday) and they joyfully showed them to me.

I hugged them and said my goodbyes, thanking them for such wonderful handiwork on these cards. S3 started breaking down crying because I was leaving. I ran back to him to console him and remind him that, on an up-note, that tomorrow he would have the fun of going to Preschool. He brightened a little at that.

And so I was able to leave. (Yes, it still kills me to part from my family.)

I got home an hour later and noticed I had a voicemail on my cellphone. It was W. She started in on me, saying "If you have any love or regard for your children..." and then told me I needed to call first before showing up at the door. She insisted that my dropping by unannounced got them so wound up that S6 was having difficulty returning to his homework. She said giving me another night during the week would, as she put it, "terrorize" S6 and prevent him from being able to adjust to the breakup of the weekly structure he needs.
(Umm, like the separation she has demanded wasn't responsible for his disruption in the first place?!)
She said that originally she felt it was in our S's best interest to seriously limit their exposure to me, because I was so "dark" and negatively affecting them -- and that she just couldn't and cannot bear to ever be with me (same old rehash.) She trailed off the message almost sobbing, saying I have no idea what harm my presence has had on our S's...

First, W is most definitely projecting her angst with me onto our S's. I have a great and wonderful relationship with my two boys, and I can see the pain they suffer when one of us, their mother or their father, is departing, leaving them with the other parent. They know the family is not coming together, that Mommy and Daddy are continually going opposite directions. And that is what saddens them. As for S6, children often act out when their parents are not getting along or are moving apart, even when they don't fully understand why themselves. That's why S6 was being uncooperative with finishing his homework. But W would rather project the problem onto me.

Second, I am really tired of W continuing to make me out to be the most horrible monster that ever lived. I know I have faults and that I have sinned, but I have never harmed anyone deliberately or with malice. I don't hate anybody, and I lead a dull, clean life, but I am a workaholic who tends to gets too wrapped up in work. I don't tend to be the best manager of my time and efforts, and I can get lost in the weeds at times. I confess my depression and that I let it overpower my life and nearly ruin my family. But this demonization by w is over the top. If I am that horrible, and incapable of learning from my mistakes and growing, then I wouldn't want me to raise my S's either. But her hyperbole is so grating.

Third, she knows subconsciously the way to really hurt me now is to threaten what is left of my family: my 2 sons. She knows how that is the one thing I will defend, if nothing else.
Posted By: Michael Mc C Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/13/07 12:59 AM
Well NCB, Happy Birthday (mine is Friday).

I couldn't imagine having to listen to that VM from your W but I think you're correct in saying that it is her angst and bitterness and probably even guilt that's causing those words.

Do not let her convince you that you are a disruption to those boys' lives.

Did she offer any insight into how calling ahead would be better?

I'm sorry to hear this from you. Hope you had a good day anyway.
Posted By: LL44 Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/13/07 01:00 AM
Quote:
Third, she knows subconsciously the way to really hurt me now is to threaten what is left of my family: my 2 sons.


This is so cruel in my book. What a deep wound for your wife to be constantly inflicting on you. I am without words.

About an atty, I got a ton of advice (legal) over the phone without hiring him. Try another attorney.

Super HUGS!
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/13/07 03:24 AM
Thanks, Michael, Happy Birthday to you too!

Don't worry, everyone. I can see what W is doing, but it still hurts -- and it is a very sad indication as to how far apart we still are and how unlikely the situation is to improve.

Thanks, for the hugs, Lwb.

I just don't understand this desire, conscious or not, to inflict pain on me -- continually. I know I shouldn't expect much, if anything at all, from W. But she just would not acknowledge to me directly that it was my birthday. She reminded my 2 S's to tell me that when I talked to them on the cellphone today, for which I am grateful. But then she left me this irritated voicemail while I was talking with my father this evening -- she snidely told me that I had to remember to tell all of my friends and family that they should call me at my cellphone number instead of the land line at our house. She complained that she kept getting interrupted by other people calling while she was already trying to talk to her cousin on that line. (I wanted to call W back and tell her, "Life sure sux for you, don't it!")

I told my mother last night, after she called to wish me happy b'day, that I was done with W until she starts waking up, if ever. I have gotten to the point where I don't care anymore. The person that W is right now is just too abhorrent to try to have a life with. W is so hellbent on proving the old adage, "Like Mother, Like Daughter."

Like I told Jarhead in his thread, I also told my mother that because I know that the time it will take to properly heal is on the order of four years or so, I am facing being single for quite a while. On the other hand, there's no harm in leaving the door open for W to return, at least until I have had the time to heal. It appears to be highly unlikely for her to return, but it doesn't hurt to keep the avenue open anyway.

So, it's time to redouble the effort to let go and let God. To detach, GAL, focus on me, etc. I am not going to be snowed again by W and distractions in the name of "improving communication", not while they're really one-sided.

I am in the process of writing a revised Separation Agreement. I will at some point present this to legal advice.
Posted By: LL44 Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/13/07 03:34 AM
HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!!!

Someone tonight (the only coworker that knows about this) said to me "Why would you allow him to separate from you AND possibly see OW?". I sat there for a second and said "Well, for me, right now, I need to leave that teeny tiny crack in the window open for H, so when I am finally ready to let go completely, I'll be ready".

Mr Ohio_Mark once said, "I am not in a hurry to reconcile and I am not in a hurry to get a divorce". So true.
Posted By: Yoyowife Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/13/07 03:47 AM
Happy Birthday to you, Happy Birthday to you, Happy Birthday Dear NC, Happy Birthday to you...(The voice of an angel, not really, just be glad you are reading this instead of listening to it.)

Your wife makes me so mad. She is the one that disrupted the family. She turned the boys' lives upside down. Good...if she has a little inconvenience. I hate it for her. Oh, by the way let her be the one to have to explain why you aren't at home answering the phone, again her choosing. Let her live with the consequences!
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/13/07 03:50 AM
Thanks, Lwb. You are so wonderful.

And I agree, Mark's comment is spot-on.
Posted By: Hurtin4certain Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/13/07 03:55 AM
Happy Birthday No Code!
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/13/07 03:58 AM
Many thanks to you, too, Yoyo!

I'd love to hear your voice and judge for myself -- you're definitely an angel in my book.



I keep thinking, whenever that day of reckoning comes to my W, she is going to be sooooo mortified. It actually makes me sad for her.


Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/13/07 03:58 AM
Thanks, H4C!
Posted By: Yoyowife Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/13/07 04:07 AM
So NC, did you turn 44 or 45?
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/13/07 04:17 AM
45.

When my dad asked me how old I was I said 25 jokingly -- he got so confused there for a second and said, "What? No, you're kidding." We both laughed, but I realize I shouldn't have done that to the poor man -- since his stroke back in June he's had some memory problems. Still, I know he was laughing at himself as well for having to remember.

I then told him I'm celebrating the 20th anniversary of turning 25.
;\)


Oooh, that reminds me I gotta' fix my sig.
Posted By: Yoyowife Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/13/07 04:22 AM
NC,
I'm right behind you. I turn 45 in Jan. Wow, we keep getting younger and younger, don't we? I remember when I used to think 45 was getting on up there.
Posted By: Sara Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/13/07 04:36 AM
Happy birthday Blue. This is good. All of you are catching up with me, cuz I'm not getting any older.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/13/07 04:42 AM
I remember a guy I worked with when I was about 35 -- he'd just turned 45 and was saying he was in the best shape of his entire life, pumping iron, running and working out. He said when he was at my age then (35) he would never have been able to keep up with his teenagers the way he was able to at 45.

I can say that today at 45 I am about as fit as I was in college, and many ways more so. It's not about the numerical age but how you feel <at the risk of sounding like another cliche>

Now if I can only get my emotional health back in order...
Posted By: Yoyowife Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/13/07 04:42 AM
Of course not Sara. We are all of age and we all need to head to Tampa celebrate all of these winter birthdays!
Posted By: Sara Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/13/07 04:44 AM
Sounds good to me. I think I saw tonight that Southwest flies from Little Rock to Tampa.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/13/07 04:46 AM
Thanks, Sara.

No prob. Like my beloved grandma used to say, "Gentlemen are always older in age than Ladies."

So no matter what, just think of me as being older than yourself.
Posted By: Yoyowife Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/13/07 04:49 AM
Probably does. We flew into Tampa one time when we went to Disneyworld. I think it was USAIR that time.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/16/07 12:47 AM
Hope everyone's weekend is going reasonably well.

Time to update my thread.

The boys and I went to a matinée today to see the new Alvin and the Chipmunks movie. We had a blast -- the boys loved it! Lots of parents there with their kids too.

<journaling>
It turned so cold today. Yesterday was quite sunny and warm, almost balmy -- saw several people in shorts and sandals. W did not even include coats or jackets for the boys, so before we could go out to the movies we had to stop by the house to grab some outerwear.

W was at work all day, and the house was empty but for our dog. I ran upstairs to look for some jackets and passed by our bedroom -- and did a double-take. W had left the light on in the master bath. And I noticed the clothes that W had left laid out on the bed. I was shocked to see something new that W had bought -- it was pink. Pink!?!

You've got to realize that one thing about my wife is that since we've been married she would almost never wear something pink in color, let alone buy something in that color for herself. She has always thought it was too "girly" (yeah, I know, she's a strange bird.)

So I went into the bedroom to see if my eyes were deceiving me. The last thing I can recall that W bought for herself in pink was a camisole and some sexy underwear she got for our wedding night. Since then? Maybe one other item, also lingerie, a very long time ago.

Almost without thinking I marched over to her chest of drawers and opened the one she always put her underwear in -- even more pink, all new, and a lot of lace, and a lot of black, and a lot more sexy stuff she has bought in the last five months than she's bought in the last ten years.

I closed the drawer and went back to what we were there for in the first place, but now realizing I now had more information than I wanted, and feeling my mood darkening. I angrily said to myself, "Yes, it's over. I'm done."

<side note> I used to buy W lingerie all the time, for many years during the first part of our M -- we even spent some time shopping together in Victoria's Secret. But somewhere along the way she stopped, and she got to where she was irritated with me for spending the money -- told me to just get her inexpensive sleep-shirts instead. I think she was unsatisfied with how her body was maturing, and nothing I said seemed to reassure her. She said she would take care of picking out her own intimate apparel, but she eventually stopped that too.

She also stopped wearing perfume (said it would irritate her patients) and forbade jewelry. (She was wearing earrings for the first time in ages the other day too. I complemented her on how they made her look, and she said she wore them to a meeting at the office. This too was a surprise, since these nurses are discouraged from wearing jewelry, according to W.)

So, now W has changed her tune entirely on these things, reverting back to that young available woman before we married, now with the feeble mind of a teenager.

It's a good thing my S's and I went straight from there to see a funny movie. Thank goodness -- I needed the distraction to get my mind back on less depressing thoughts.
Posted By: LL44 Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/16/07 03:41 PM
Man. Oh Man. I hate those kind of discoveries. \:\(

Quote:
I needed the distraction to get my mind back on less depressing thoughts.


One day awhile back, I picked up a pile of laundry to bring downstairs and on the very top was H's shirt. It so obviously reeked of perfume, and it wasn't mine. This was on the way out the door with my girls. I was so distracted that day, I vowed to never let that happen again. Its awful.

Glad to hear the movie was good. I plan on suffering through it (err...I mean seeing it) over the holiday.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/20/07 01:39 AM
Last few days have been BAU (business as usual). But I have finally taken care of all my Christmas shopping.

I had originally decided that I was not going to get W a gift this year, but then when I did not get her a birthday gift back in August that did not go so well. I got wind via the "grapevine" that W was upset with me and claiming I was now only thinking of myself. And after the cold reception I got for our anniversary (in July), I thought gifts were verboten. I really am confused.

Still, it is Christmas -- and I feel in the spirit of the season I should give her something even if she is negative about it. I will decide to ignore her if she is sour.

But I did not want to buy her anything that she would object to either. All the normal stuff is out -- jewelry, clothing, perfume, etc. I thought of a gift certificate, but I had to be careful about that. I did not want to get her something like a certificate to a nice restaurant or spa or anything that she would use for both herself and OM. So I got her a gift card to a Christian bookstore. I don't think she couldn't possibly abuse that, not really. I plan on making it a gift from me and our S's and enclose it in a card we three will make together, as a little project this weekend.

I also decided -- don't ask me what possessed me -- a smaller gift card for the MIL. Again, it is in the spirit of the season, and I figured I wouldn't expect anything positive in response, but it will still make me feel good.

W kept reminding me that S6 is wanting a new bicycle this year. Frequently. Kept reminding me to look at the boys bikes whenever I was out and about. I found a great bike for S6 Monday night, and told W all about it. I purchased it and put it into storage for the big day.

I may need to cease listening to the "grapevine", because I got word today that MIL is saying I am trying to "buy" my S's love. WTF?!? Her daughter is the one insisting I be sure to look after our children's Christmas wants/needs (as if I need to be told anything in that regard), and MIL claims I am buying my S's affection!

Sheesh! I am d*mned no matter what I do in their eyes! If I don't spend money on (them or) the kids, I am too stingy and selfish. If I do spend money on the kids, then I am trying to buy their affection. And now that I am trying to increase my time with my S's and seek joint physical custody, I am again being "selfish" and "disrupting" my S's lives.

Screw it! I can't win. So I am going to do what I believe is right -- no matter what these loonies might think.

Posted By: EmtnRllrCstr Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/20/07 02:01 PM
NCB,

Quote:
Screw it! I can't win. So I am going to do what I believe is right


That is all you can do. Keep doing what you feel is right for your S's and you. BTW, I also got my X something from my girls and I. I recently got my girls pictures taken and am giving her some nice pic's of our girls in some frames. I figure it is not to personal yet at the same time a nice gift.... I am also getting my XIL's presents.... I am not expecting anything in return, but feel it is appropriate. I can careless what my X feels about it all.

I know you already know this....but stop snooping..... You saw what it did to your mood. What she is doing behind close doors is not your concern....I know you hate this, as do I, but you have to not think of her as your W who you have loved all these years. Right now she is not that person.....hopefully that will change....

Your doing good my friend....

Take Care....God Bless,
Scott
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/20/07 03:32 PM
Thanks, Scott, I really appreciate your advice.

It's funny you mention giving your XW a framed picture of your children as a gift. We recently had photos made of our S's (at W's request/insistence) and I kept a nice 10 x 13 for scanning into the computer (so we can print copies and email the image files to family and friends). I was just thinking of framing it and making that part of the gift to W as well -- thanks for confirming the idea.

And yes, I need to stop the "snooping". I can get way too much information from the "niece-to-niece" network/grapevine. My brother's W has filled me in on a lot of the words my W and her mother are saying to that side of the family.

My W had the nerve to chastise me for talking with my side of the family early on, after the bomb, and thus, as she put it, "poisoning the well" for her with them. I have been fairly discreet since then, but I continue to hear how my MIL is continually running her mouth to any and all on that side.

But I know there is nothing I can really do to stop it, so having the knowledge of it only makes me feel bad. I know enough already, what I am up against. Thus, it is best not to know any more.

Thanks. And God Bless.
Posted By: Yoyowife Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/20/07 06:37 PM
NCB,
First of all we know that we can't make everyone happy. There are people who will always find fault with what we do. If giving the gift to your son makes you happy, and I'm sure it does, that's all that matters. He's your son, you love him. Chistmas is a time of celebration, end of story.

I have a poster in my classroom that says "You'll never regret doing the right thing!" I also have another one that says "Determine what is right instead of who is right." Pretty insightful, huh?

You are a good man who loves his family, that is a fact!
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/20/07 08:31 PM
Hello, Yoyo,

Those are some great posters to have up for your students to see. Very insightful, in several ways. One of these ways is that just having such messages in your classroom reflects how wonderful a teacher you must truly be.

Thanks for your kind, supportive words.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/21/07 02:35 AM
I just had another reminder how W still takes potshots at me... and still hits her target despite how much detachment I think I am achieving.

I just returned from a little last minute Christmas shopping when W called on the mobile phone. She was at some mall waiting to have the boys' picture taken with Santa (she never told me she was going to to this, although she had "suggested" I do this last weekend, which there was no way that was going to work out.) She said she was trying to preempt my nightly call to say goodnight to the boys because they were likely going to be in the middle of the visit with Santa at my regular time (8 PM).

Okay, so I got to speak to my S's and to express how thrilled I was they were going to see Santa and then wished them good night. S6 then put W back on the phone -- W took the opportunity to determine how we were going to divvy up the holiday weekend custody with our S's. I will get them Friday, Saturday and Sunday Night, and then return them Monday Night, Christmas Eve. That way they can be at the house first thing Christmas morning for opening presents.

I had already considered this plan myself, so I agreed with W that it made sense. And I was just about to inquire about the schedule/plans for my presence during the gift opening Christmas morning (is she going to be hostile in that regard I have been wondering) -- but that was when she laid another one of her whammies on me! She said something to the effect, "... and what I want from you is your signature."

I stopped and paused, and then said, "My signature?"

W said, "On the agreement!" ... referring to her cherished Separation Agreement (SA). "If you would just sign the agreement, that's all I would need from you."

She had switched immediately from motherly W mode to Ms. Scrooge WAS mode without skipping a beat.

Internally I was floored, but I managed to maintain my composure. She was trying to unnerve me by catching me off guard once again, but this time I saw it for what it was. I replied, "So you want me to sign the SA?"

W said, "Yes, before we change the visitation schedule the way you've asked, we need to sign the agreement." (I note that she keeps referring to my time with our S's as "visitation" and not "custody".)

I told W I was not satisfied with the way any of her previous drafts were written. W said, "Why not? I used the perfectly sound online forms to create this document. There's no reason you should object."

I paused, smiling to myself. "Yeah, sure. Why don't you just wait until you see the version I am writing up first? Then we can talk about what's fair or objectionable."

W then said, "Fine. I just didn't think you wanted to waste about $3,000 on retaining lawyers or mediators."

Me: "That all depends on you, doesn't it? Wait till you review my draft before we make that decision. If we can agree to terms among the two of us, then none of that added expense will be necessary."

We left it at that, but as I drove home, I continued to stew and fume over her single-minded, pig-headed determination. Oh, if she really wants an SA, well, she's going to get one -- and it won't be on her terms though. I am overhauling her ridiculously worded crap with its inaccuracies in the accounts being split and so many unfair characterizations of my role in my sons' lives ("visitation", indeed!!!) and putting it in a much more balanced agreement. Her very choice of words would have me giving up joint legal custody, let alone the joint physical custody I demand.

I am feeling a great deal of anger and almost outright hatred for this WAS right now. Ebenezer Scrooge was a lightweight pansy compared to how my W (or her mother especially) can suck the life out of the Christmas Spirit. I am right this moment looking at the framed portrait of our S's and the gift card I had planned to wrap up for W for Christmas -- and I am fighting the angry, vengeful impulse to forget entirely about giving her a gift ever again. She would rather have this SA, so be it. (And as for the MIL and her gift card, I know that her contempt for me, even as unfounded as it is, will not let up -- so I certainly would be wasting my efforts on her.)

But I know what the Lord is telling me. His Son endured the worst that Mankind could throw at Him, and yet He still loved us enough to die for our sins. In His name and in the spirit of this season we celebrate in His name, I must be humble and not vindictive. I must forgive and do the right thing, despite the scorn heaped on me.

She did it again. She destroyed my good mood, and I let her. I wish I was stronger.



Posted By: Hurtin4certain Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/21/07 03:03 AM
No Code... Been there, done that. My W left me Dec. 25th 2005. I could not believe how heartless she was about it.

We opened presents with our daughter that morning, I bought W a CD I knew she wanted, she bought me nothing. After our daughter opened presents, we all got dressed and I took my D with me to my folks house. That was the last time I saw my W in our house.

She had bought a house (I had no idea she did this) and left me in financial ruin with our house in foreclosure. SHe had made sure she was taken care of (took ALL the furniture)and left me to drown in a sea of debt and misery.

I spent a week in that house sleeping on a mattress on the floor, didnt even have a chair to sit in. I remember coming home after work and sitting against the wall and wondering what I had done to deserve this. I mean there was absolutely NOTHING in this house, nothing. It was a vacant house, nothing but carpet.

Luckily I was able to short sale on the house and walk away from it with only 12k in debt. COuld of been much worse.

I too am Christian but as much as I try to walk with the Lord, I wanted my W to suffer for everything she had done to me. I wanted her to suffer the absolute worst possible pain known to man for hurting me like she did.

That Christmas changed my life forever but I made it through it, you can too.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/21/07 04:04 AM
H4C, yes, man, what your W did to you was unbelievably harsh-- now that is certainly something I'd call cold-blooded.

Wow, dude... Just wow.

And for that I can truly understand why you would want your W to suffer the consequences, purely because they would be the consequences of her actions. And yeah, I realize as Christians we're supposed to turn the other cheek, but boy do I sometimes wish the Lord would get His vengeance sooner rather than later.

Thanks for sharing.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/23/07 10:39 PM
W decided at the last minute to show up for church this morning. And then she pulled the same little maneuver she did a couple of months ago -- during the offering she escorted S6 to Children's Church (this is about mid-service usually), but then when she returns she sits somewhere else -- to avoid sitting next to me.

She had an "excuse" this time however -- she said today she was the Nurse-on-call for her group, and she had to relocate closer to an exit in case she got called.

Me, I'm thinking, "Whatever". I don't care anymore. I don't need her excuses.

What upset me more was that in the first part of the service I was looking through the church bulletin and saw a flyer for our church -- they're going to hold their own session for the DivorceCare program starting the second week in January. I smiled and pointed this out to W. She glanced at it and acknowledged that she had already seen it, but she was not interested. She said she "had too much 'homework' to get caught up in something like that."

I have been fuming about this ever since. Oh, I acted nonchalant and got focused on the main service, but when she decided not to show back up later after taking taking S6 to children's church, I was actually somewhat relieved. (But I almost wish she just wouldn't show up at all, if she's going to be that way.)

Still, the assertion that she is anymore busy than I am -- and yet I manage to have shown up for the DivorceCare support group sessions at another church without fail for the entire 13-week program (and am still going back) -- is patently ludicrous. I know W's just close-minded to anything other than hearing from those who enable her vices. And she's too arrogant to consider that she has anything she might possibly could learn in these matters.

I have had a mind to put the flyer prominently on her vehicle under the wiper blade, but she'd just toss it in the garbage.

W won't seek any more counseling either. Miss know-it-all can't be bothered.

Yes, it's gotta' be endorphin addiction.

Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/24/07 04:25 AM
Put the boys to bed about an hour ago. They were up late tonight with me, watching a Christmas DVD, The Polar Express. We love that movie.

I have my S's one extra night, tonight. They'll get to spend tomorrow, daytime, with me, but I take them back tomorrow evening, Christmas Eve. I am so happy for the good quality time I've had with my S's this weekend.

I have been wondering how Christmas Day is going to go, and whether I will be invited to be there first thing that morning for the gift opening. W has said nothing about it, and I won't pry or impose myself where I am am not welcome. So I am mentally steeling myself for the worst.

It does not bode well so far. W recognizes that I have a lot of the major gift items from Santa to be brought over yet, so I will have to transport them down there when little eyes are asleep. W merely mentioned that I should return later tomorrow night after our S's are off to sleep -- she'll leave the garage door up and "allow" me to quietly place the gifts in our car port. Then she'll bring them inside after I am gone. (Sounded to me like a hostage exchange.) It doesn't sound like I am welcome for anything else.

Honestly, if this really is the way she wants to handle it, then I am fine. She's only harming our S's. I will be angry for their sake, but part of me will be resigned to the fact that this M is truly over under those circumstances, that the person I loved is most assuredly if figuratively "dead" and gone. It will only underline and confirm what I have been fearing is true.

I pray my pessimism is unfounded, for my family's sake.
Posted By: LL44 Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/24/07 04:34 AM
Quote:
(Sounded to me like a hostage exchange.) It doesn't sound like I am welcome for anything else.


"Just place the gifts down and back away...no sudden moves..."

Sorry couldn't resist. I am angry for you if you don't get to be included on Christmas morning. That's just wrong. No need for any real exchange with wife or mil that day, it would focused all on the kiddos. I am sorry, truly sorry. I will be devastated if I can't see my kids on any Christmas morning, but you are in a much better place than I, my friend, and I know you will make it through if you don't see them.

(((HUGS))) for you since you have been sending them my way.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/24/07 06:06 AM
Originally Posted By: lwb

"Just place the gifts down and back away...no sudden moves..."


LOL! Exactly!

Thanks, Lwb -- that really made me laugh. You really are a gem.
Posted By: foo fighter Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/24/07 06:34 AM
NCB,

I read your thread every day and thought LWB's comment was funny. I am sorry your W is being this way. Not fair for all of our children at xmas to be going through this.

Yeah, any sudden moves and the teddy bear gets it.

Unfrickin believable what these WAS's do to us LBS's. It is like we are toxic or monsters and can not come near them.

I hope you can get some happiness and peace at xmas.

Foo
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/24/07 03:40 PM
Foo,

I have been following your sitch' as well, and I know how depressing it must be to want to be able to provide for your loved ones, but lack the means to do so properly, especially at this time of year. I have a job and yet I find it much more difficult than in years past due to the strain on our finances this separation is having. And while I do know what it is like to be without viable income during Christmas (I was laid off right after 9-11 in 2001) my W was at least helping us make our ends meet. I can only imagine how hard it must be for you to have all of this at once, and my heart goes out to you.

I pray that you find the job you need, and that you gain what you need to get yourself where you need to be in your life. I pray that you will regain the footing you need to take care of your children and give them the father they need. I know you can do it -- I hear your heart in your words, and that you have found your priorities. You are your children's father, no matter what. And likewise we are God's children -- He will never give up on us. Please always remember that and you will be fine.

Merry Christmas and God be with you.
Posted By: foo fighter Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/24/07 04:12 PM
NCB,

Thank you for your kind words. It is important for me to remain a strong man here, that is all I have left. I know that I have messed up on the job front and should have done something earlier but in my defence, I took this sitch badly and could not function.

WAW jumped ship and think she did because she tought/thinks OM can provide. She has still got money issues and has claimed food stamps, Temporary Assistance For Needy Families and has to work. However, she picked an OM who was divorced, had adult children, a home with only him in it and a business that she worked in. This was a coincidence was n't it? He had what she needed to leave.

She is not independent enough to do this on her own, live by herself or herself and the children.

God be with you too and Merry Christmas!

Foo
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/24/07 04:43 PM
Foo,

I must also mention that part of my problems that contributed to my M failing is that after I found a job, I went too far in focusing on keeping it, to the detriment of my R with W.

There is a balance, my friend, a delicate balance.

God bless.
Posted By: fightingirish Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/24/07 05:09 PM
nocodes,

I just wanted to pop on quick and tell you how sorry I am. She obviously doesn't see the hurt that she is inflicting on your boys, and is truly selfish.

What she is doing is just so very wrong. My thoughts are with you.

I hope you find some comfort in your boys love.

Merry christmas.

(((hugs)))

tal
Posted By: andyv Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/24/07 11:28 PM
NCD,

Hope you and your family have a Merry Xmas and an excellent New Year. All my best buddy.

AndyV

P.S It cant get much worse \:\)
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/25/07 11:18 PM
Thanks, Tal, Andy, everyone. I really appreciate everyone here, and I wish we could all meet, have a DB'er jamboree.

Christmas Eve was pretty good with my S's. The boys and I went to a mid-afternoon Christmas service for children at our church. Both S6 and S3 were sort of bored and fidgety compared to previous times. But then I noticed a lot of the other children in the congregation were very much the same way for some reason.

Last night, after I dropped the boys off at the house, I went back to my apartment. I tried to work out in the gym, do some laundry and cleaning, and then showered and got ready to leave out. W had left a voicemail that she had left the garage door open as planned, and that she would be up very late doing Nursing paperwork.

So about 10 PM I headed back to the house with the car loaded with a bicycle and other gifts. I tried to phone ahead several times to let the W know I was on my way, and to let her know I had not labeled the gifts I had already gift-wrapped, so it would be hard to know which gift was for who. But I never got a hold of W.

I dropped the gifts off in the garage, checking to see if she left the door into the house itself was unlocked -- it was locked alright. I have a key, but decided that the sound of the door being unlocked would set our dog off. I didn't need or want to do that, as it might wake the whole household.

I drove away with my heart in my throat, and gave one last try on the mobile phone as I got to the end of our street. Nothing. Oh, well, let W try to figure it out on her own. I then decided to put it out of my mind and continue on to the 11 PM Christmas Communion service back at our church.

I can't tell you how comforting the Christmas service was -- it was packed, surprisingly. It was very heart-warming, even though part of me was still wishing my bride had been with me.

When the service was over, I noted that W had left another voicemail while I had been in the service. She had gotten my earlier message and was indeed a little confused as to which present belonged to who. It was now after midnight, Christmas Morning, but I took a chance that she was still up doing her paperwork, since her message was left only about a half hour earlier. I called her, but apparently she had fallen asleep and I woke her. Still, she thanked me for calling back and for then giving her a description of the presents so she could identify the intended recipients for each. She had tried to stay awake to get her paperwork out of the way, but she was too sleepy -- and she knew our sons, being early risers, would be up before the crack of dawn, especially on Christmas Day.

I then told W I'd let her go back to sleep, and then she replied, "Okay, good night. I'll see you tomorrow."

Absent-mindedly, I replied the same, "Good Night. See you tomorrow." And then we hung up -- and only in that instant did it strike me, tomorrow! W had actually indicated that I was expected to be there in the morning. Up until those last words, she had made no indication whatsoever that I was in any way welcome to show up on Christmas. But her words just then were the first real indication she was not intending to shut me out entirely.

Shocked/relieved I started to call W right back to ask, "Really? What time?" But I decided it made no sense to wake her again.

I got up at 7 AM. W left a message around 7:20 AM, saying that our S's were, miraculously, still asleep, but that I could come over as soon as I was able -- but she would videotape the present opening if they got started before I arrived in any event. Again, confirmation of a small Christmas miracle.

So I got to spend a few hours this morning with my S's. And while they did wake up and opened their gifts in short haste right before I got there, the two of them were thrilled to be able to show me what all they had received. It was very wonderful, and I was very thankful to be able to share a little time with them. MIL fixed a light breakfast which I shared in. And MIL and W even thanked me for the gifts that the boys had gotten for them.

But some time before noon, it became evident that I was beginning to overstay my welcome. My W apologized that neither her or MIL had planned to prepare a Christmas dinner for lunch -- MIL's ham was intended for this evening. So I got the hint and made my exit. I guess I was there for nearly four hours, which is not bad considering I was prepared for nothing at all.

I know the whole point of me being there this morning was purely for the sake of my S's. I have no illusions about that. But I will take what I can get, and I am so thankful that the Lord made it possible for me to have a little time today with what is left of my family.

To everyone here, I hope that your Christmas was indeed merry and may your holidays bright.

Blessings.
Posted By: Sara Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/26/07 12:37 AM
Blue,

It was heart-warming to read about your day. I'm so glad your wife was nice to you on Christmas day. That is something to be thankful for.
Posted By: LL44 Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/26/07 03:46 AM
I was thinking of you this morning. Thinking how every parent should be with their kids on Christmas. I know that isn't possible in reality, but I too, am grateful you were able to see your boys. And I am happy that your W realized how important it was to you and them.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/26/07 04:16 AM
Sara, Lwb, thanks.

Unfortunately, I just had my heart ripped right out once again.

After calling my W's cellphone to wish our S's a good night, W began talking about today from her perspective. This was a very disturbing R talk. My W said many things to me that I found deeply hurtful (to put it mildly). She said my presence today in our house was very painful for her, "like finger nails on a chalkboard." While she perceived that I didn't care how I affected her (I was oblivious to this) and enjoyed myself with my sons, she was suffering in my presence.

She said she took a Zanax (sp?) to help with her anxiety. She said she feels the same way whenever she is around me and feels the same way in church. She said for that reason she cannot go to church at the same time I am there, and that we should arrange to not be in our church at the same time -- or else she should find another church to go to.

At points during this convo she began to sob.

I am in silent alarm for most of this. I am feeling anguish, anger, grief and sorrow, and shock and disbelief, even horror. All I can reply at times is, "I am so very sorry you feel this way."
To which she would refrain, "I am sorry -- this is why we will never be together again. It's too painful." And then she would sob more.

I also told W that I never had any intention to make her feel this way, and apologized that I seemed so horrible a person in her eyes. W said she was sorry she felt this way, that she's felt this way for most of our time together. (whatever.) I replied, at one point, maybe she thought it would have been better for her if I had died in the car accident I was involved in in 2006. W said that our S's need their father. I told W that she did not sound so sure of that.

I asked W what would ease this "anxiety" she has with me. W insisted that she needs us to separate our finances and sign the Separation Agreement (SA) so she can relax, find some peace, because she just cannot trust me. She cannot trust me. I got her to elaborate, and she says that she hears S6 frequently talk about Tennessee and how I want to move there (I had only considered it at one time this past summer.) She says she keeps thinking I am going to run off to another state with our S's, and she cannot bear the thought of me taking them away from her.

She has mentioned this fear a couple of times in the past, and it just astounds me. How do you affirm your WAS' feelings in the DB way when their feelings are so outrageous and hurtful? One cannot rationalize with this insane talk, nor can one affirm it in any way, and yet it begs for a response. I told her that I was not the one to whom trustworthiness is at a lack, and that my word was my bond. I stand by my obligations, so in that her fears were without basis (yes, this is anti-DB, but what else can I say?) I also said that I know that removing my S's from their mother would only harm them more than her, and would thus hurt myself. I told W that I hoped she knew that and felt the same herself (she said she did.) Even if I wanted to harm W, taking our S's from her would be foolish -- that would be parental kidnapping.

And then W started crying about how if I loved my S's then I would have been there early enough this morning to see their gift opening this morning, but I didn't.

My jaw fell in my lap and I was exasperated beyond words. She complained that I could have been there in time this morning, but she figured I was too tired from being at the church until the wee hours of the morning. She said I might as well not even have shown up at all this morning if I was going to be late. But it just showed that I had not changed at all.

I managed to reply that I had no idea I was even welcome to so much as show up on Christmas Day ... until 12:08 AM this morning.

W protested this saying she told me long ago about the holiday arrangements, but obviously I was continuing to ignore her words, still to this day. She claimed we had discussed this at length. I told her this was not so, that I have been paying particular attention to any and all discussion of holidays since before Halloween, at the least.

The conversation devolved from there, as you can easily guess. My W is adamant that she told me I had been welcome on Christmas Day and that I was effectively calling her a liar. She said I was again making her feel like she was small, "about as big as a pea", and demeaning her when I had so little regard for her as to listen to what she said. She said that I was too arrogant and "perfect" to even consider that I might be wrong.

I told W that I was far from "perfect", especially in the time leading up to the bomb ("our falling out") but since then I have paid particular attention to my conversations with her and what she has said. I told her I never said she was a liar, but she had to be "mistaken".

(Side note: This is not the first time that W has gotten our conversations wrong. I now journal our conversations, as few as they have become, quite extensively. While I know I have gotten her words mixed up before in the past, I have documented now several occasion where she has failed to recall things correctly. But heaven forbid if I ever call her on these discrepancies. I really think W talks to so many other people -- her mother, her sister, her friends and family, her OM -- that she forgets what she says to who, especially me.)

W says this is just more of the same, that our problems with communication are too great and that I don't respect her enough to listen. In the past I would have to agree with her, because I really did have a problem with listening and comprehending what she was saying during the depths of my depression. But that is no longer the case.

Now I am in shock and seeing the insanity of this situation -- and that I am, at last, seeing that I really am fighting a lost cause. Nothing. Absolutely nothing I have said or done, or will do ... will ever change anything. Not with her.

So, I said, "That is why we are separated. We are just not communicating. I know what has been said between us." W agreed and echoed we need to be separated -- that she was sorry but she just cannot stand being with me. She said the best thing would be for us to sign the SA, complete the split of our finances, and speak as little to each other as possible aside from about our children.

W then begged to end the conversation to attend S3 and put him to bed. I let her go and calmly bid her good night.

I started to cry after that. It was not supposed to be this way. I still do love her.

I am just so devastated that she continues to have this animosity and contempt for me, that she feels that I am so abhorrent to her, and she sees me as being so horrid a person. As little interaction as I have with her, she still continues to perceive of me as some monster, and that my very presence is a burden on her. I am anguished that this is having a negative effect on my S's, that her perceptions of me affect their own perceptions -- and that they too are coming to believe that we are all better off if Mommy gets what she wants, even if the family is split. I hear what she is saying, and I know it is really her guilt that makes her ill. When she thinks that I am threatening to steal our S's away from her, she could only contemplate that if she herself had considered or was considering the same action herself. It is all my fault in her eyes.

Folks, today I am finally facing just how wide the gulf between W and I really is -- and how little progress we have made. We are so far from even being able to co-parent our S's effectively, divorced or not, I am beginning to lose hope.
Posted By: Sara Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/26/07 07:45 AM
Write up the separation agreement you want and hammer it out with a mediator. She is the ace of manipulation.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/26/07 02:41 PM
Yes, thanks again, Sara. I do see the strings of W's manipulations. I also see what her motives are, whether she is actually conscious of them or not.

I suspect, if I can say that I think I know my W to at least some degree, is that her anger and hostility towards me, her abhorrence of me, all stems from her overriding desire to want to leave me at all cost.

To be more precise, I suspect that W is "saving herself" for the OM, that they have decided to lay low in their A until W can D me. But the strain on W is so great and unbearable, to be deprived of what she, in her mind, believes she is entitled to, that she harbors so much frustration, anger and depression -- and she sees me as the cause for this "suffering".

Basically, I am this evil, horrible obstacle to the bliss she thinks she can have with another person. I am the enemy.

All she can think about now is getting rid of me. She still has to survive another 6 months before she can file, but she is sooo impatient. I fear she is going to get more and more nasty as this progresses -- and I really fear what message this is sending to my 2 S's.

I can't fight this. There is nothing I can do. Part of me wishes she would just get on with her PA so she can just shut up and quit threatening my relationship with our S's. Let her deal with her guilt on her own. Let her stain her own soul if that's what she's so hellbent on doing, but I need to think about my S's now, first and foremost. I cannot save her; it's neither in my role nor in my capacity.
Posted By: Hurtin4certain Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/26/07 03:03 PM
No Code... time to go dark. She wants space, give it to her.

If you read any of those "relationship gurus" websites, they all say the same thing... if someone wants space, give it to them. Dont initiate contact AT ALL unless its something you NEED to speak to her about regarding S's.

Even if you dont speak to her for months, its what you need to do. I remember a few years ago when my W and I first separated, she wanted a D and I backed off. We didnt speak for months... then one day, out of the blue, she called me and asked how I was doing. I was SHOCKED.

The point is, she needs time to work all this crap out in her head and she cant do that while you are around.

Show her you are confident enough to honor her wishes, you WILL survive and you dont need her to be happy in your life.

When you do speak to her about your sons, sound happy and dont ask her any questions about her life. Trust me, thats the path I am on now and just recently she started texting me again. Nothing major but thats how it started last time.

You really need to detach big time No Code, truly detach. The WAS almost always come around when you are at the point that you TRULY dont care if they come back or not. Its so weird how that works.

Hang in there man.

H4C
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/26/07 04:01 PM
Thanks, H4C,

I have tried to go dark -- as dark as is possible given how I am trying to be a father to our S's. I will just have to insist on never speaking to W, to ignore her chitchat and not be lead into any more R talks, no matter what. I have to prepare for her frequent refrain of accusing me of failing to communicate whenever I don't follow into her minefields -- I just have to smile and ignore her, at all costs, regardless of the repercussions, because the alternative is far worse.

I give up. Silent running is now the mode with her.

Last night before going to bed I wrote up a letter to W. I have no plans to give this to her, but I think it summarizes my own feelings about us right now.

"Why did you make me fall in love with you?!!

Why was it so important to get me to put my heart on the line for you, to marry you, and alter my whole life for you?

If you never really loved me, then why?!!! Was it your ego, again? Was it your self-esteem? The same reason you have decided to cheat on me? To now dismiss my love for you once you thought I no longer gave you what you wanted? Now that you can get that "fix" from someone else? That boost to your ego, to your self-esteem?

Why?


Did you ever really love me? Are you even capable? Or is it that you can never really get past these self-esteem problems? These mountainous insecurities? That you are too fearful for your own sensitive ego, such that you can never truly risk giving yourself to someone else, for fear that they too will fail you?

Is this why I have always been tested by you? Is this why you are always doubting me? Persistently? Because you made me responsible for overcoming your insecurities? With no help from you?

Is this why you have lost respect for me? Because no one can ever measure up, not for long, because no one can overcome your own personal problems with your fragile self-esteem? Because you cannot allow yourself to trust anyone else? Because you don't trust yourself? Because you cannot believe in your own self worth? So even I, your husband, am suspect?

Is that why you feel the need to control others?

Is this why this seems a never ending battle? That because you refuse to recognize and account for this one weakness of character, I would forever be trying to prove myself to you? And forever trying to prove your worth both to me and to yourself?

And because I too am not perfect, and I do fall, you want to throw in the towel? Because I can fail and have failed to sustain my one purpose in your eyes, which is to affirm your self-worth no matter what?



But you did. You got me to fall in love with you. I can remember the very moment it happened. Can you? Do you really know what was going on in your own heart at that time? Was it really love on your part? Or was it the fulfilling of a need to have your own self-worth affirmed?

Was it Love ... or the idea of being in love?


Yes, you did get me to love you -- and I still continue to do so, despite all the pain and anguish it has meant. Though I sometimes really wish it were not so."


I fear I now know the answer to these questions. W will never answer them herself, but it doesn't matter.
Posted By: Yoyowife Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/26/07 04:12 PM
NC,
I'm so sorry for the tremendous pain she is causing you. I think the letter is a good idea. Keep them in a box and then later bury them, burn them, whatever makes you feel the best. Detachment is the key here. I know it's hard, but she is being extremely cruel. You have to protect yourself from her. Keep contact to a minimum.

Hugs
Posted By: LL44 Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/27/07 12:31 AM
I wanted time at work to read and respond to this, because I think our spouses are on the same page with their feelings for us.

I know Christmas was hard for us because we were all off together in the same house. It felt very stifled to me as well, and I can only imagine H's annoyance with me. You know, me just being there and breathing and all that.

Quote:
She cannot trust me


H has said this so many times to me. Thinks I am going to do all sorts of things to him. Thinks I am seeing someone. Its very tiring to deny these things, so I do it once (deny it) then leave it alone. It makes me furious when H says he can't trust me. Makes no sense....

Quote:
How do you affirm your WAS' feelings in the DB way when their feelings are so outrageous and hurtful? One cannot rationalize with this insane talk, nor can one affirm it in any way, and yet it begs for a response


Oh I wish I knew!!! They won't listen when you defend yourself (with the truth!), but expect you to constantly engage in talks about your shortcomings, how you make THEM feel... I totally agree, its like they want some sort of response, but I have no idea what that response should be. I suppose you are on the right path with "I am so sorry you feel that way". There really is nothing else to say. I, for one, am so tired of hearing what a horrible selfish person I am.

Quote:
In the past I would have to agree with her, because I really did have a problem with listening and comprehending what she was saying during the depths of my depression. But that is no longer the case.


Either she is so far gone that she wouldn't see any change that you have made, or she is scared, and *won't* see it. And don't knock yourself, a lack of communication is not a justification for an affair.

Quote:
I am just so devastated that she continues to have this animosity and contempt for me


Its heartbreaking, isn't it? It can bring me to tears. I am sorry you feel this pain too.

Quote:
Folks, today I am finally facing just how wide the gulf between W and I really is -- and how little progress we have made. We are so far from even being able to co-parent our S's effectively, divorced or not, I am beginning to lose hope.


Don't lose hope. This is ok. These talks are getting things off her chest. Co-parenting will get easier when emotions aren't running so high and detachment occurs (I can only pray!).

Here's my thing. Why does she think some piece of paper will make her feel so much better? What is the difference between now and the piece of paper? It will not make her any happier or at peace, she just thinks this. Are you still having issues with the SA or are you prepared to sign? I say sign if its ok with you and your atty.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/27/07 01:49 AM
Hello, Lwb,

I really appreciate you taking the time to consider and offer your advice.

Quote:
Don't lose hope. This is ok. These talks are getting things off her chest. Co-parenting will get easier when emotions aren't running so high and detachment occurs (I can only pray!).


I am feeling my hope wane for even the most meager of reconciliations -- where we are no longer at odds with each other with regards to the raising of our S's and we can tolerate each others presence in the lives of our children and thus in our own lives as well.

As I look at the cards today, full reconciliation (restoration of the marital relationship) is certainly out of the question -- I am no longer going to put my hopes on the line to save my M. Oh, I won't be shutting the door as yet, but I can no longer worry about something that is out of my control and appears more and more remote with each passing day. I am giving that to God. But last night was a real eye-opener -- if my W is so hostile and still so alien towards me after all these six months that she cannot abide my very existence now, I don't have much hope for being able to peacefully and rationally raise our S's together, let alone renewing my M with her.

I am beginning to think that my W is trying, consciously or subconsciously, to get me to walk away from my S's. If she can make all our lives a living hell, for the two of us and our kids, then maybe I will back off for my children's sake. If so, it's a foolish, dangerous game she's playing -- I won't let her do it, not without letting her know what she is risking -- I will take whatever legal action I feel necessary to shield my son's from such damaging behavior, even if it bankrupts us both.

I really hope it doesn't come anywhere close to that.

Quote:
Why does she think some piece of paper will make her feel so much better? What is the difference between now and the piece of paper? It will not make her any happier or at peace, she just thinks this. Are you still having issues with the SA or are you prepared to sign? I say sign if its ok with you and your atty.


No, it won't really make W feel better. I can see that. You can see that. Anyone can see that. It is just like W insisting that I get checked out for Asperger's Syndrome (which proved negative, and which she then immediately dropped)-- just some new hoop for me to jump through so she can blame her griefs on me. It's all me, always.

No, she'll never be satisfied.

For myself, yes, I have had serious problems with her precious Separation Agreement. W has presented me with about five different drafts now. Each version only changing in the slightest from her original. Her original was written by her using an online legal forms site the very week after the bomb fell on me. While I was in shell-shock over the bomb, W was trying to take advantage of me by trying to railroad me into her unfair agreement. I have refused to sign any of them. The more I read these the more angry I get for how subtlely unfair her document is.

For instance, I bristle at her wording of my time with my kids as being "visitation" instead of custody. No way on earth would I agree to that!

And in every version she continually fails to correct the discrepancies to the way our assets and liabilities are being split. We have a verbal agreement on those, and yet she leaves her unaltered mistakes in her document.

No, I am rewriting it with my own interests in mind and those of my sons. It will be far, far more equitable, but if she doesn't like it, then I'll see her in mediation.
Posted By: Sara Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/27/07 01:57 AM
Right. Do it, write it and present it. This is BS. She can't stand the sight of you. Too bad. Divorce does not end the relationship between two people. It changes it. You will still be in her life. She will still have to work things out with you. She will have to communicate with you several times a week. Divorce does not take the spouse out of the other spouse's life. She needs to accept reality, because the court will set up the way you and she deal with the children and the finances. She is not going to push you out of their lives.
Posted By: tryingtoholdon Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/27/07 01:59 AM
NoCode,

How are you guys set up financially right now? Are you still supporting her life? Or are you paying child support? I agree with her that you two need toi split your finances. Give her that, But tell her point blank how you feel about the seperation. Tell her to go pay for a lawyer that your NIT signing anything you are uncomfortable with>

I am curious because she seems to be a real manipulater. Have you ever gotten angry with her. Like a hey listen you cheated on me!! You aren't innocent! You did your part in tearing this family apart. You have fear of me taking these kid's. Well, honey here is my fear I have two beautiful sons and you have a man in the wings waiting to be a father to them ar at least involved in their lives. How do I know you won'ttake off with your OM? YOU are the one who has changed here!
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/27/07 02:41 AM
I am paying child support by paying our primary mortgage on our house -- which is quite a tidy sum each month and the reason we have been so house poor for the nearly eight years we've been in it.

And right now, whether we split or get back together, I am insisting our finances stay split.

Yes, I have in the past gotten angry with her and said some pretty caustic things regarding her adulterous behavior with the OM. I think, though, that she is now playing games with me on what is going on in her personal life. For some time now she has taken to never, ever acknowledging anything about OM - only saying something like, "You are just wrong about that!"

It's all legal maneuvering now with her.
Posted By: tryingtoholdon Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/27/07 02:48 AM
Maybe you are paying to much NoCode. If she wants this seperation legal maybe you should try giving her the life she wants. Let her be Miss Independent financially with her 25% a month or whatever it is in your state.

I was just wondering if you ever got your say in about what she has dome to harm the marriage. Sounds like you have. For my husband my anger is what made him snap for the better go figure. I could be nice and do things and GAL. Maybe the combination of everything helped. But when I went postal on him and got down right angry and pointed out all of HIS short comings and what people would think. Well, it's like he seen the light. At least I think.
Posted By: Yoyowife Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/27/07 02:52 AM
NC have you read any of the articles on the homepage?

This one could be of some help to you.

http://www.divorcebusting.com/a_while_spouse_decides.htm
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/27/07 03:16 AM
Hey, Yoyo,

I do remember reading that one. I think the idea of trying to remain as your spouse's friend is a good idea, at least in theory.

However, I am in a bit of a Catch-22 paradox with my W. I know full well what a friend, a true friend, would say and do around W. A true friend would never let her get away with half the crap she pulls.

My W, however, does not want me as her friend in any way, shape or fashion -- she only wants people to approve of and affirm her wrongheaded ways. She wants me to kiss her butt. Or to roll-over and give her any absurd thing she wants.

But while being that sort of "friend" might make her feel less hostile towards me, possibly even friendly, she would never respect me -- and that is the other serious issue between us. And without respect, our M would still be impossible.
Posted By: tryingtoholdon Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/27/07 03:30 AM
Very true No Code. Because a friend tells you the truth. : ) LOL My grandma use to say if you love someone you would tell them right away if they had a booger hanging out of their nose. LOL!! I remember thinking ewwwwwww.
Posted By: tryingtoholdon Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/27/07 03:30 AM
Very true No Code. Because a friend tells you the truth. : ) LOL My grandma use to say if you love someone you would tell them right away if they had a booger hanging out of their nose. LOL!! I remember thinking ewwwwwww.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: If I Could Change The World... - 12/27/07 02:00 PM
I recall someone telling me that too a long time ago.

(Did you also instinctively wipe your nose when they said it? )
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