Divorcebusting.com
Posted By: NoCodeBlues King of Pain, 2 - 10/03/07 05:38 AM
Wow, my first thread has locked!
I guess I'm fully initiated the club now, but I'm also a little punchy from all the hazing.


Andy, man, thanks for sharing that. I've really been feeling guilty for the pressure I'm now seeing in S6 over the hard facts I presented him. And I have to reel this back in. W has a right to be furious over this, but not for the reasons she purports.

Lwb, my W gets extremely angry at any attempt to clear up the fog.


I feel like I've really screwed up everything now. My W is already threatening me over my parental rights, and this latest attempt to bring what i thought would be a little sanity back into the picture has made things worse. I know MIL is telling W to seek a lawyer and to have me taken completely out of the picture (I've got my sources) -- but that comes as no surprise. That my W has made me out to be her utmost enemy since the bomb is still so shocking.

I have to ask myself though, is going dark really going to help? Part of the problem W has had with me is withdrawing under pressure. But then she wants her space and I need to not come off as pursuing her. Catch-22.

She disrespects me, because in her own words I have always been too nice. She certainly doesn't like confrontation either (unless she's doing all the confronting.) So I'm either too passive and weak, or too opinionated and disagreeable. I'm either too cold and callous, or too fiery hot and angry. Catch-22.

<commentary>
I thought I might as well share the lyrics behind my thread (I'm sure most of you are familiar with it.)

There's a little black spot on the sun today
It's the same old thing as yesterday
There's a black hat caught in a high tree top
There's a flag-pole rag and the wind won't stop

I have stood here before inside the pouring rain
With the world turning circles running 'round my brain
I guess I'm always hoping that you'll end this reign
But it's my destiny to be the king of pain

There's a little black spot on the sun today
That`s my soul up there
It's the same old thing as yesterday
That`s my soul up there
That's a black hat caught in a high tree top
There`s my soul up there
There's a flag-pole rag and the wind won't stop
That`s my soul up there

I have stood here before inside the pouring rain
With the world turning circles running 'round my brain
I guess I'm always hoping that you'll end this reign
But it's my destiny to be the king of pain

There's a fossil that's trapped in a high cliff wall
That`s my soul up there
There's a dead salmon frozen in a waterfall
That`s my soul up there
There's a blue whale beached by a spring tide's ebb
That`s my soul up there
There's a butterfly trapped in a spider's web
That`s my soul up there

I have stood here before inside the pouring rain
With the world turning circles running 'round my brain
I guess I'm always hoping that you'll end this reign
But it's my destiny to be the king of pain

There's a king on a throne with his eyes torn out
There's a blind man looking for a shadow of doubt
There's a rich man sleeping on a golden bed
There's a skeleton choking on a crust of bread

King of pain

There's a red fox torn by a huntsman's pack
That`s my soul up there
There's a black-winged gull with a broken back
That`s my soul up there
There's a little black spot on the sun today
It's the same old thing as yesterday

I have stood here before inside the pouring rain
With the world turning circles running 'round my brain
I guess I'm always hoping that you'll end this reign
But it's my destiny to be the king of pain

King of pain
King of pain
King of pain
I'll always be king of pain
I'll always be king of pain
I'll always be king of pain
I'll always be king of pain
I'll always be king of pain
Posted By: LL44 Re: King of Pain, 2 - 10/03/07 02:03 PM
I'm disrespected here too. It sucks. But for you, you can seem to do anything right (although I get that here too lol). I am so sorry. It seems your problems have washed over to your sons, where W feels she might have some 'control' over you. Neutral, neutral, neutral...Even when she brings up crazy stuff, give yourself time to respond. Like when my H said when we separate he'll have the kids Sunday-Friday and I get them on Saturday..... Um, ok. Fog talk, much?

I could write sooo much of what you are writing, about being the enemy. He hasn't outright said it, but I know he justifies his A by how I treated him.

Have you read "Not Just Friends?" I just started it last night and I am amazed at how RIGHT ON they are about things. Its eerie. Gives an insight into the WAS's thinking, but also is very comforting to the LBS.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain, 2 - 10/03/07 05:30 PM
I actually haven't read that one yet, even though I've made Amazon and Borders a small mint in the many books I have been picking up lately. (I just finished "When Love Dies", and I can only wish that my W would read it.)

I saw "Not Just Friends" on the bookshelf and skimmed through it -- it does look good. It's now moved to the fore on my list. Thanks for the recommendation.
Posted By: runningoutoftime Re: King of Pain, 2 - 10/03/07 06:00 PM
>>I know MIL is telling W to seek a lawyer and to have me taken completely out of the picture (I've got my sources)<<

Well, that sounds like an over reaction if I've ever heard one. Have you ever heard that saying, "Be careful what you wish for..." Does your wife think she'd actually REALLY WANT 100% physical custody? Do you think if she moved in with, or married, OM he'd want to have 100% physical custody of your kids? I doubt it. The reality of it would certainly put a big dent on her romantic time with OM. Doesn't she already try to get you to watch them so she can have "special time" with OM? Boy that would have to end. Gosh, if my husband ever threatened me with that $hit I'd let him have it!.... Here, you go... take them.... you get to be a single parent 24 hours a day for the next 18+ years... I'm off to live in Florida or Hawaii and spend the next 18+ years hanging out at the beach!!! Party time!!!! ;-)

Actually, I did used to threaten him with that!!! He adores and loves his kids, but when I did that (even had a realtor in Florida sending me information about homes there!) he'd get really frantic.
Posted By: Yoyowife Re: King of Pain, 2 - 10/03/07 06:30 PM
NCB,
It is the fog that has her thinking wharped. Please do not let mother-in-law get to you. In the end your W will do what she wants to do. She is the one that you have to convince that you are a good person.

Yoyo
Posted By: runningoutoftime Re: King of Pain, 2 - 10/03/07 06:52 PM
Seriously, I don't know about your state, but unless you are abusive or have a very severe drug/alcohol problem, and have been in trouble with the law, it would be very VERY difficult for your wife to take complete custody away from you.

Just ignore the whole thing. Your W is living in some fantasy right now and she is also presenting you in a negative light to MIL. The entire thing is completely out of porportion. The best thing to do is stay out of it. Ignore it. Don't try to defend yourself or you'll only fall in it.

(BTW, it never hurts to have a list of great lawyers hidden away... like in a drawer at work... hopefully you'd never have to use them, but at least you'll feel prepared if you ever do...).
Posted By: andyv Re: King of Pain, 2 - 10/03/07 09:29 PM
NCB,

You have to go dark, trust me.

Every part of your sitch is like me revisiting mine. It got to a stage where W hated me soooo much, that she would have done everything and anything irrational just to get rid of me (even hiring a hitman.........well maybe not as she probably couldn't afford one at the moment \:\) )

I too had problems with the custody thing, and splitting our assets etc etc.

But since going dark, probably over the last several weeks I have noticed a huge change in W. She is more respectful and agreeable in everything, including custody and asset sharing.

Also, the more you react to what other people may or may not be saying (eg MIL) the more you look like the tyrant in your R, and the more W will brainwash herself into thinking this way.

Believe me, as proof in my sitch, I have noticed that since going dark, all the people that supported her in leaving our relationship are starting to drop off, due to my W not really wanting to interact with them. I am sure the fog is slowly lifting in her life, and she is slowly starting to realise that these people may have been wrong.

So I would def go dark, and try not to say anthing to anyone about how you feel or what you think of your W and what she is doing. Also keep your S out of everything, protect him the best way you can. Kids know exactly what is happening and who has been the cause without you telling them. My DD has even told me (with no prompting) that OM has destroyed our family...........because she can remember him "sniffing around" when I was away for work 12 months ago.......two months before the bomb.

I hope I haven't confused you even more \:\)
All my best,
AndyV
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain, 2 - 10/04/07 02:16 AM
Thanks, Root, Yoyo,

I realize that gaining full custody would be difficult for W. I know that the MIL has blessed my W taking up with the OM and having him father my S's. (Apparently, OM is not the biological father of his W's kids, so this would be a familiar role for him -- playing father for someone else's children.)

Originally Posted By: andyv
I hope I haven't confused you even more \:\)


Oh, no, far from it, Andy. I really appreciate it.

I think I have been finally getting myself mentally ready to truly detach and go dark. I am now just utterly disgusted with my W, and I am not feeling much love for this "new" person she's become. She's been taking full advantage of my delirium and my struggles to adapt to this shakey situation. Keeping me off balance has helped her to get what she wants out of me. It really is "all about her" in her mind.

I can be congenial, but that's about it. I'm going dark -- stealth black. The only time I intend to show up on radar is for our children, only out of necessity since she is now using them too as a wedge issue.

I feel really good having come back from my Bible Studies class tonight. The scriptures give me so much support in coping with this situation. I realize that much of my depression and dissatisfaction in life has come because I have forgotten to put God foremost in my life. I placed my career, my aspirations, my family, my marriage, my wife all ahead of my relationship with Him. i am restoring the correct balance to my life.

On the way down to church, I stopped to see my S's and wished them good-night. S6 still thinks he has the power to change our situation -- I quickly took him aside and reminded him again what I had stressed to him, that there was nothing either he or I could do to fix this situation. I told him I and his mother were trying to work this out (a lie, since I am the only one actually trying) and that this was not his burden. I reminded him that he should pray to God that we get through this -- that is the most important thing that any of us can do.

While I had my back turned away from W explaining to S6 in hushed tones, he tried to engage his mother by saying that we need to tell her this important information as well (he's so cute in how he means well and wants to help.) That was when W chimed in saying it was okay to S6 ...and then I knew that W could understand what I was saying to our S, even though she was in the kitchen and we were in the dining area. I don't really care, as I figure she'd be a lot more guarded in what I say to our S about these matters anyway. And I got the impression she did not disprove of what I said tonight to ease the burden off S6.
Posted By: andyv Re: King of Pain, 2 - 10/04/07 02:42 AM
Ncb,

Well done, you did really well with S6.

Believe me when I say it will get better for you emotionally. It's great to see you have your priorities in order (balance), that is a great first step.

Give it time with this going dark, and see how it goes.

All the best mate,
AndyV
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain, 2 - 10/04/07 02:48 AM
Oh, about my sources. This is really an alternate form of snooping, so I need to not use it for the sake of DB'ing. But I have a contact for insider knowledge about what goes on with my wife and in-laws.

I have two of the sweetest and most adorable nieces in the whole world. My brother has a DD14 and my W's Sister has a DD15. They've become pretty good friends during the various family get-togethers over the many years, and apparently they correspond with each other regularly even though they live in separate states. They have set up MySpace accounts and have created a grapevine between our two families. And they are more knowledgeable about what's been going on and what people have been saying than I could even have imagined. I didn't know anything about this until my brother's W clued me in to this little operation going on right under our noses.

As a result, I have learned a number of facts that have filled in a lot of the gaps in this puzzle. This is how, for example, how I know that the MIL has been running her mouth off to all the in-laws for months about how "terrible" I have been treating my W and that W simply must divorce me.

But now I think I know more than enough -- it now worries me quite a bit that since before the bomb was dropped on me the earth has been scorched and salted by my in-laws. I don't know what I could have ever done to deserve such treatment by my MIL and the MIL's sister (W's aunt), until very recent I have been nothing but kind and courteous to them.
Posted By: LuvMyHusband Re: King of Pain, 2 - 10/04/07 02:51 AM
NCB, you know what they say about blood being thicker than water. My IL have always been there for me but now that my H is staying with them, they haven't even called to see how I am or how the kids are doing. I know how you feel because I feel the same,let down and a little abandoned. If or when me and my H work it out, I don't see my R with my IL's being the same as it was.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain, 2 - 10/05/07 04:41 AM
Oh, man. It gets worse and worse.

W keeps gathering points of contention with me whereever she can. S6 has had some incidents at school of late, including drawing a picture of his mother and the other man in a restaurant on a date -- ouch, not good. W is not so much furious but threatening me with a great deal of zeal and recounting all the things she thinks makes me to be a bad father (its almost like she's happy to have one more thing to demonize me with.)

I tried to not argue with her, and for the ost part I succeeded in saying very little, like "I'm sorry you feel that way." But even that makes her angry and she starts berating me for just being my old non-communicative self.

Man, has she ever turned into a shrew. At one point I just could not stand it any longer and just hung up on her. Not very tactful, I know, but I was about to explode.

At this point, I'm not only beginning to lose all hope of saving the marriage, but any shadow of a chance this might get turned around. Now I am in fear that she is hellbent on not only getting me out of her life but my son's lives as well. It's not enough she's taking her love and our marriage and our family away, but now she's on the path to take away the only thing I have left in this world, my sons.

Just as I am finding an equilibrium in this maddening situation, she won't give me a moment's peace. I am really beginning to hate this person she has become. God help me.
Posted By: LL44 Re: King of Pain, 2 - 10/05/07 01:44 PM
NCB, sometimes I look at H and think how pathetic he has become. The lying, the blaming, the arrogance, the everything. Its hard to find a balance and stay committed sometimes. I think your mind is detaching without you even having to try. I agree, it wouldn't be as bad as long as W wasn't dragging the kids into it. That's your 'button' and she knows it. I am so sorry.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain, 2 - 10/05/07 03:48 PM
Lwb,

That's it exactly. W is now zeroing in on the one button she knows will destroy me. She was in the process of saying that the reason she left me and can never live with me ever again is because of how I hurt the kids -- not because of the OM, not the hurt I caused her herself, but now its because of the kids -- that's when I hung up on her. The implied threat is that she is making the case I should not be allowed to be their father.

She has cut me down and destroyed everything I hold dear, and the only thing left she has the power to hurt me with is my children. If it were not for my love for them, it would have been so easy to throw in the towel by now.

So much for smiling and keeping a PMA -- it just makes me look like a sitting duck and a fool in her eyes.
Posted By: LL44 Re: King of Pain, 2 - 10/05/07 04:02 PM
Yes, NCB, I fear that if I didn't have kids we would be in the divorce process already.

I can't imagine your pain regarding her threats and allegations with the kids. That just cuts to the deepest part of your heart. Its just awful. I can't think of anything to say. I suppose if you are 'done' with PMA, your goal would be neutral, even, calm. For your children's sake only.

HUGS
Posted By: runningoutoftime Re: King of Pain, 2 - 10/05/07 04:50 PM
Done with PMA? What do you mean? Even if you can't keep your marriage together and your wife doesn't wake up and realize what a destructive, mean, ugly shrew she has become, there's always a positive side to things... like now you don't have to live with the bit@h!!! I'm sorry, but any woman who wants to keep her children away from a father who loves them is evil. Ultimately she will hurt her children more than she's hurting you. This is not a woman you want back at this time. She would need to change. This should make it easier for you to detach and GAL. This OM is not "winning" anything if he ends up with your wife. She sounds like a nightmare. Let him deal with that....

And just DON"T FORGET to stay nice and DB in spite of her hideousness. Don't give her the satisfaction of you being mean or nasty back. Please!!!! I want her to regret this ugliness because eventually, at some point, even if years later, she will.

And the first thing you need to do is not blame yourself with this. This is one more thing you have to let go of. You are not responsible for the reality of the situation and what is occuring (and make sure at some point you let the kids know that.... tell them it was not your choice). How they react, what they feel... you are not responsible for this. Let it go... and let her deal with it. They are young now, but eventually they will understand.

Don't worry about looking like a fool or sitting duck in W's eyes. You don't. You just feel like one. When anger is high, I think your best bet is to go dark as much as possible. Maybe you can reduce communication to email and make it as business-like as possible. Speak with a lawyer about how you should be setting up custody arrangements during separation. Is she currently trying to keep you from seeing them? Perhaps she's a lot of "hot air." Don't worry about the inlaws. My FIL and SIL were pressing my H to divorce me as well (SIL even set up my H with dates!!!).
Posted By: saffie Re: King of Pain, 2 - 10/05/07 05:06 PM
As the children get older they will resent your W if she keeps them away from you. Ultimately she will lose out.

root Haven't 'talked' to you in a while. Have a good weekend. If I get a chance I will email you.

Saffie
Posted By: runningoutoftime Re: King of Pain, 2 - 10/05/07 05:21 PM
Originally Posted By: NoCodeBlues
The implied threat is that she is making the case I should not be allowed to be their father.

She has cut me down and destroyed everything I hold dear, and the only thing left she has the power to hurt me with is my children. If it were not for my love for them, it would have been so easy to throw in the towel by now.


That's because she's grasping for straws. My guess is if you aren't mentally or physically abusive (btw, telling the truth about a situation is not mentally abusive... mental abuse is MUCH stronger... It's cutting down a person, destroying their ego... someone who destroys a child's ego, telling them they are bad or stupid), and my guess is you are not an alcoholic. She is grasping for anything to use against you. Make sure you date and take notes of everything in a journal.

I know how helpless you feel about your children. Unfortunately, we can't protect them from everything or make perfect lives for them.

P.s. Saffie, I lost your email address.... Blues, saffie is right. I know a guy whose wife did this to him (moved faraway so he couldn't see his kids). In the long run it only cut out an important person in their lives, severed an important relationship. And her life never got any better.... BTW, he eventually remarried a really nice woman he met many years later. I think she takes great care of him. They have no kids, but his kids now do visit in the summers.... and his XW did orignally want 100% custody. It all went into an ugly custody battle that he eventually concluded was getting too expensive and emotionally draining so he had to let go. I think it all came back to bite her in the butt. She only hurt herself and her kids. I'm sure they resent her for that. And he just had to accept and live with what he couldn't change.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain, 2 - 10/05/07 07:35 PM
Thanks for all the kind support, everyone.

I know W is just blowing smoke, but it doesn't hurt any less when she says it. I also don't doubt she'll make a play to bluff me legally if it comes down to it -- just as she originally tried to railroad me with her one-sided Separation Agreement the first week after the bomb (when she thought my shock and imbalance would make me more pliable). She knows the courts tend to favor the mother even in the face of her adultery. She also knows that a legal battle is going to hurt me more than her, even though neither of us can really afford it.

Basically, W is cake-eating and wants no semblance of guilt for it, so she has to make me out to be some absolute monster, to ease her conscience. I understand that. She claims she is a good mother and that she never says anything negative about me in front of our S's, but then she doesn't have to -- her actions speak louder than words (I know the IL's are not withholding their tongues.)

W is a good mother, for the most part. But she refuses to see what her actions are doing not only to me (for which she has no care) but to our S's (which she denies). She can admit no wrong -- except where she ever got involved with me in the first place. And in that she has proven to be an apt disciple of her mother.

While I expected some of this alien behavior, as it has been described over and over again by others, I just never realized to what depth my W would actually descend. I don't know what happened to the person I married; this is not her.

One thing W said to me yet again last evening. She said in passing that my neglect of her led her to contemplate suicide, and that a "loving husband" (which by her measure I am not) would never drive their W to such a dire position. After she said it, I thought to myself that she has already done that, committed "suicide". Perhaps the woman I knew and loved is now "dead". I don't know.
Posted By: saffie Re: King of Pain, 2 - 10/05/07 09:25 PM
Personally speaking, suicide is a state of mind. The interaction of others is incidental, not the driving factor. It comes from withtin, from feelings of a lack of self worth, from thinking the worlds would be better without you. To blame it on another is cruelty in the extreme. NCB - give your wife's comments on this no credence please.

I speak from a VERY personal position on this.

Saffie
Posted By: runningoutoftime Re: King of Pain, 2 - 10/05/07 10:58 PM
I think in general the courts are trying to be more balanced and fair in divorce. Most judges (according to one I know personally) are aware and sensitive to the fact that not providing kids with a good amount of access to their fathers is detrimental to the children. Of course, having a good attorney who has a good relationship with the judges in your local court does help....

If you do happen to speak with an attorney don't tell anyone about it. Also, if she does file or go in that direction do NOT let her know you would fight her for custody... or give her any information about your legal position. It's better to have her completely unaware. That way, if she's expecting a pistol you can come back with a nuclear bomb. Make sense?
Posted By: Yoyowife Re: King of Pain, 2 - 10/05/07 11:32 PM
Hey Root,

Can you take a look at my latest thread and see if you can give me any pointers? Any advice when have would be helpful.

Thanks,
Yoyo
Posted By: runningoutoftime Re: King of Pain, 2 - 10/06/07 01:25 AM
Hi Yoyo,

You are already so wise, and a wonderful DBer, I'm not sure I can add much more to what you already know but will take a look... as long as I don't get disturbed... Almost time for me to run off the computer...

If for some reason I can't get to it maybe you can send me an email with recent background... otherwise, at the latest, I'll have plenty of extra time next week to read though posts. I'm off work... Fall break! Yeeeah!!!!! message me at comtesse_de_provence at Yahoo.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain, 2 - 10/06/07 02:42 AM
Originally Posted By: saffie

I speak from a VERY personal position on this.


Yes, thanks, Saffie. Being aware of your story, I know the magnitude of your testimony on this subject far outweighs anything W can provide. And that helps to ease my mind a great deal over the guilt I have felt ever since W first told me in June that she had considered taking her own life because of me.

I can not entirely discount W's sincerity about her claim. Part of W's psychological makeup involves low self-esteem, which has prompted her to periodically question my love for her since the beginning.

Then again she is not immune from hyperbole, especially where she can gain something.

Best regards.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain, 2 - 10/10/07 04:41 AM
Well, I could only lurk occasionally on these boards the last few days. Looks like some of us some of us are handling things really well (lwb, Sue, Sara). And some are also seeing some encouraging progress (Yoyo).

Just wish I could report the same.

The weekend went great with the boys. On Saturday, we went to a Harvest Fest at our church and had a great time. Sunday we went to church service, and then, because the weather was so unusually warm, we actually tried to go swimming -- only the water in the pool was freeeeezing cold. S6 and S2 were so funny, shivering in the cold, cold water but insistant on staying in the pool and having a good time. I eventually decided that enough was enough and made us all get in the hot tub to warm back up.

I had my C session Sunday evening. W was insistant that I get C's reaction to the fact I "broke his rule" about not involving the children in their parents adult business. She also wanted C's reaction to my telling our S's that W (in her words) was a liar.

I told C all about what I really said to my S's -- everything, including the part W refuses to get all the information on. He (my C) basically agreed with my notion that hiding the truth of what was going on from our children would one day cause them resentment. As C put it, S6 is not going to care one wit about the fact that he was only 6 years old -- he's only going to want to know why he was being deceived or kept in the dark about events that would have great impact on his life.

When I told C about W's desire to know what his reaction would be, he said that she was more than welcome to schedule her own appointment with him.

I'll write more about this later -- right now I'm very tired. I had a very rough afternoon. I had another parent-teacher meeting today, and W was there too. (Prior to this meeting, earlier today, I got a phone call at my office fom the school's social worker. She was asking me about what might be affecting S6's behavior on Wednesdays and sometimes Thursdays. I had no real answer to that since I am no longer in S6's home during the week.)

Well, at the meeting S6's teacher expressed great satisfaction in his work, but his beahvior was not so good. He is showing more signs of agression and anger at times with other students, which is so unusual for someone who is normally so sweet. The teacher eventually brought out a copy of S6's picture he drew last week, and she intimated that she wants to help our S do well in school, but she needs the cooperation from both of us to keep our personal matters in check.

My W then took this opportunity to chastise me in front of the teacher about how I supposedly told my S that his mother was a liar. She got this teary-eyed look and started going off on her little rant saying again how S6's behavior was learned from my neglect of her. She got to portray herself as the sole victim before my S's teacher. I was deeply upset.

I on the other hand could say nothing in my defense without it further antagonizing W. I just bit my tongue. When the meeting ended I marched right out the front door -- I did not want to talk to W about it.

Later when I called to say goodnight to my S's, the W started asking me what was my impression of what was said. This started a bad R conversation, and I regret it.

W is a piece of work.
Posted By: LL44 Re: King of Pain, 2 - 10/10/07 05:15 AM
NCB,

How you keep your control is beyond me. W is dragging you through the mud in front of people, but trust me, they see right through it. Composure is your middle name, how do you do it???

Quote:
She got to portray herself as the sole victim before my S's teacher. I was deeply upset.


I can understand why you were so upset. She has really distorted history and now the present, right in front of you. That's so terrible.

My thoughts are with you, they really are. Your sons will grow up to see what a wonderful role model you are.
Posted By: runningoutoftime Re: King of Pain, 2 - 10/10/07 04:06 PM
No Code Blues,

I'm really glad you had the self-control not to react when your wife said those things. I think if you ever feel you need to say anything it's probably okay to say, "That isn't true." But then do not say anything more after that. Stay quiet and composed and let her rant and rave. I've learned that the person who can stay calm, reasonable and rational is the one who comes out looking best, while the one who "loses it" almost always comes out looking worse.

One more very important reason to tell the kids the truth about the situation is children tend to see themselves as the center of their universe and it's very common for children to believe that the reason a parent left is because of them. That they did something wrong or bad that caused a parent to leave. Even kids who don't verbally express that usually have those thoughts floating around... and anyways, what's done is done! They know, and she'll just have to live with the fact she's a liar.... oh well...

I think you are doing well in spite of everything. Just keep GALing, and stay as dark and non-confrontational as possible while your wife is in angry-mode. You will need to accept the fact you have no power to "fix" your children's lives. About the best you can do at this time is to be the "Disneyland dad" and when they are with you give them lots of love and great memories. And when they aren't there... go live for yourself.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain, 2 - 10/11/07 03:53 AM
I really can't say that I had the necessary self-control. As I mentioned, last evening, W pressed me for my thoughts about the meeting with the teacher. It led into an argument, and this time I was not just going to take it. I was already hurt and upset with her for the way she behaved earlier in the afternoon.

First, she asked me did I learn anything from what S6's teacher was trying to tell us. She said that (in her opinion) the teacher agreed with W that involving S6 in our "adult" business was harmful to him and was "cruel".

She accused me again of calling her a liar in front of our son. I told her she was wrong. I told her that I asked S6 to tell W everythinghe and I had discussed, but W only wants to hear what she wants to hear. We have a difference of opinion, and I am tired of being asked to be complicit in her lies. She said that involving S6 and putting him between us was cruel. I told her that I certainly regret it, but lying to him was also wrong. And further involving his teacher in her complaint and our business, especially when she had just made the point that she wanted us to contain it, was also just as wrong. Her defense was that the teacher was an adult and not a child like S6.

I told W that in my talk with S6, I heard her words coming from his mouth that could only have come from her. Stuff like, "OM is just a friend." I believe W is coaching S6. And so hearing S6 repeating W's words, I had to contradict her information. If that's "calling her a liar", so be it.

It got heated. W again kept saying she had to leave me because of how I am, not because of OM. I did not keep my cool, sad to say. I told W that there was a reason I became the way I was, and that was due to depression. I said there was a good reason and a cause for why I became depressed, and she needed to look at herself for her contribution to that.

W discounted the depression again, and began recounting everything she found wrong with me. She kept using absolutes again in repainting our history, and as she said certain words I began to repeat them back to her: "Never", "Always", "Completely", "Total", etc. She said she could never stand another 20 years with me and she had to leave me. At one point I actually thanked her for leaving me, if you can believe that. W said, "you're welcome."

I again started to tell W about what I really discussed with S6, how I told him to pray for her, but she hung up on me.

I am to the point where I am giving up or detaching, I don't know which. I just did not hold my cool in the end. I kept my composure earlier, but she got me to break that night.
Posted By: Yoyowife Re: King of Pain, 2 - 10/11/07 04:19 AM
NCB,
I'm so sorry to hear about all of this. I know it must be very painful. She is definitely going through the denial and it's not my fault stages.

I'm a school teacher and I have a suggestion for you concerning your son. I suggest that you call his school and make an appointment to speak to the school counselor. I would go and talk face to face with the counselor and explain all that is going on with your family including the separation and the infidelity. Let her know that your W is taking sons around the other man and you believe this is the reason for the acting out. I then would ask her what her suggestions are for your son. Together you both can decide whether to share it with his teacher. Couselors can not repeat anything that you tell them in confidence unless you agree to it or the child is in danger.

I also think this would be a wise decision of going to see counselor in the event you divorce and there is a custody battle. I know too often the W tries to imply that the H never goes to school conferences and is not involved in the child's education. Start documenting everytime you visit with the teacher or the counselor.

Again, I'm so sorry for the pain you are going through.

Hugs, Yoyo
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain, 2 - 10/11/07 04:24 AM
Oh, I saw a couple of movies (on-demand) this weekend. Funny, these are what I would call "chick flicks", but given our situations these were a bit more poignant than usual.

One was The Painted Veil with Naomi Watts and Edward Norton. This was a period piece from the 1920's set in China. Two English people marry and move to China and the wife has an affair with another man. The rest of the movie is the interplay between the husband and wife under difficult circumstances. The most memorable line came from Norton's character when the wife (Watts) inquired whether the husband was disgusted with her. He replies, "No, I am disgusted with myself for having ever fallen in love with you."

The other movie was Premonition with Sandra Bullock. This one was a little disjointed due to the way the lead character come to experience the unfolding of the events in her life. It revolves around the affair her husband is about to commit or has committed (depending on the time frame). It was pretty good, but a little too predictable for me.

Confession: I always have liked Sandra Bullock if only for the reason that when she started to gain fame in the early '90's, I noted how she and W somewhat favored each other in looks. It was only a passing resemblance, but even my family and friends remarked about it later. (I promise not to hold it against Sandra in the future. \:\/ )
Posted By: LL44 Re: King of Pain, 2 - 10/11/07 04:29 AM
Sandra is beautiful and LOL at you not holding it against her re: your wife. ;\)

I *totally* agree with Yoyo, you are owed this, your side of the story should be heard. Meaning, the TRUTH should be heard. Believe me the counselors have heard it all, and only want to make the students have a great school experience.

Wow, your wife. My gosh. HUGS to you.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain, 2 - 10/11/07 04:46 AM
Thanks, Yoyo.

That's a very good suggestion. I have been meaning to call the school's social worker (SW) back after she called me at work yesterday to ask me about what I thought might be causing S6's behavior to worsen, primarily on Wednesdays and Thursdays. I talked it over with her, but in the end I had no real answers for her since I do not normally get custody of my sons during the week. I made sure the SW understood the custody arrangement, and I suggested that maybe W could shed more light on this.

Later, right before the parent-teacher meeting, I saw W and asked whether the SW had got a hold of her. She said yes, but she didn't have time to talk with her. So, I explained to W what the SW was asking about concerning the poor behaviors on Wednesday. W actually blew it off and said that Mondays were worse with S6 since that was right after they were in my custody.

So, W will amplify any faults or problems that might have weak relativity to my influence, but will ignore or dismiss any problems that occur on her watch.
Posted By: Yoyowife Re: King of Pain, 2 - 10/11/07 04:49 AM
Since she seems to be ignoring the SW, I think this would be an excellent time for you to make an appointment with the SW. Do not tell your wife or son of your plans. It will make you look very good in the school's eyes. Believe me school officials pay attention to these things.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain, 2 - 10/11/07 05:37 AM
Thanks to all for your kind support. Need to go to sleep now.

I know I have no where near the number of days as some of the veterans here, but I just passed 150 days.

Maybe that's why I can't sleep well.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain, 2 - 10/11/07 03:30 PM
Hello, all,

I probably won't be around much the next few days. I am making a weekend trip to see my father in Tennessee and meeting up with my brother and his family who drove over from Arkansas. My father suffered a stroke in June (yes, I had that to contend with at the same time my W dropped the bomb) and his health has been poor. This weekend he is being inducted into the football hall of fame at his old high school (he set a state record for yards rushing that has never been broken in nearly fifty years.) This is a pretty important event for him.

I finally convinced my W to agree to allowing me to take my S's with me to see their grandfather and their extended family this weekend. W had originally nixed the idea since it entails S's missing school. Until this past weekend I had not pressed my case with her. (Given her paranoid freaking out during Labor Day weekend, thinking I had run off with our sons when she could not reach me by phone, I have been walking on eggshells.)

I finally asked her last Friday whether I was going to take them or not. It might be the last chance they get to see their grandfather. W said she thought it would be better if I went alone to this event this weekend, and then plan another trip to see my father at a later date after S6 tracks out of his school calendar (we're year-round now.) I told W that was not really realistic; the remainder of this year was going to be very "iffy" with regards to my time-off from work, and another trip later this year would be unlikely. Besides, my brother and his W really want to see my S's too, and they are making the 11-hour trip for the purposes of a family reunion of sorts.

W finally relented after giving her some time to think about it. I asked her was she going to be okay with this, and she said yes, but she seemed a little disappointed, having planned to spend time with S's over at her aunt's. I told her that I was sorry for that -- she has been working so much more since the separation, and I know she doesn't get to spend quite as much time with them as she used to. She said she gets to see them five days a week, and she can plan something with them later this month after S6 tracks out from this school term.

I am still walking on eggshells of sorts, for fear she might get cold feet and change her mind.
Posted By: runningoutoftime Re: King of Pain, 2 - 10/11/07 07:58 PM
You are doing your best with the eggshells. Overall I think you are doing well. Even some setbacks are fine. There are times one needs to defend themselves. If you can explain without blame that's always good. I like Yoyo's suggestions with the school. Don't forget to keep documenting stuff!

Have a safe trip!
Posted By: LL44 Re: King of Pain, 2 - 10/12/07 12:30 AM
I hate eggshells!!! \:\( You did the right thing, were patient with her and gave her time to come around regarding the trip. Great job. What a nice honor for your father to make the hall of fame, that is nice!! Glad you get to be there.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain, 2 - 10/17/07 04:13 AM
Hello, all,

It's been a while, and I really hope everyone's doing well. I see that Sue and lwb are experiencing a lot of grief again from their spouses. Stay strong, the both of you, and everyone.

<journaling>
Had a great, but very tiring, weekend with 2 S's. We drove through the mountains into Tennessee to visit my father and joined a little family reunion. Two S's travel really well and had a blast. My brother and his wife are each really good with kids, and their three kids (D14, S8 and D6) just love my S's.

Although my father looked a lot better than I had expected given what he's been through, it was still obvious he's been not doing so well. He's had two minor strokes following his last surgery, and the prognosis is not good. I fear he's been holding on just to get through his award and induction ceremonies -- I think my brother is right, this could very well be the last time we see him.

Still, my father told me the honor bestowed on him this weekend was the proudest moment of his life. He was so thankful that his sons and grandchildren could all be there for him.

Friday, before I left with our S's for the trip, I caught W's eyes and told her how much I appreciated her for letting me take our boys to see their grandfather. I gave her a hug in gratitude, and while she was still a bit reluctant and stand-offish, she accepted my gesture.

I also thanked her again while speaking with her on the phone driving back on Sunday. She merely replied, "It was the right thing to do."

When we finally made it to the house, and I dropped off our S's, W was suddenly very cold and business-like. She handed me some more bills and two huge black garbage bags (33-gallon type) full of my winter clothes. She wants me to take the remainder of my belongings out of our house, clearing some coveted closet space for her. How considerate of her. Not.

But I am okay. I am feeling so much more detached. I am getting to the point where I really don't care if she comes back, because I'm not sure I can deal with someone who can do what she's done and is continuing to do to me, our marriage, the family we created together and herself. I guess I am starting to realize that I might really be better off without this person she's become. If she were to try to come back now I would really have to think about it. I fear she's lost to me.
Posted By: LL44 Re: King of Pain, 2 - 10/17/07 04:49 AM
Quote:
But I am okay. I am feeling so much more detached. I am getting to the point where I really don't care if she comes back, because I'm not sure I can deal with someone who can do what she's done and is continuing to do to me, our marriage, the family we created together and herself. I guess I am starting to realize that I might really be better off without this person she's become. If she were to try to come back now I would really have to think about it. I fear she's lost to me.


I know this all too well!!! I really know now I'll be fine if its over. And really, do we want what they have become? Can they go back?

NoCode, I am so glad you had such a lovely weekend. You are the ULTIMATE FATHER to embark on a roadtrip with your kids, on your own. I am very proud of you. Many many fathers (and moms!) wouldn't do it.

So, W was calm and polite to you while you were traveling, but then she was cold when she saw you? I am thinking W is trying to detach from you. She could do it while you were gone, but then, there you were, back from your successful trip, all happy and content. And there was W, mad that she missed you a bit.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain, 2 - 10/18/07 04:24 AM
Thanks, Lwb. My S's make it so easy -- they both love road trips and hate for them to end.

It was so funny. As I pulled into our subdivision at the end of our trip, S2 started whining and complaining. I told my S's that their mommy was already home from work and was anxious to see them. S2 started saying, "Dont wanna see Momma. Dont wonna see Momma!" in his pouting little voice.

I tried to keep from laughing, and said, "You don't want to see your mommy? Why she's missed you and wants to see you and S6. Of course you want to see her; you know you do!"

S2 replied. "I wanna' go back t' G'anpa's. Don't wanna see Mommy." Too funny. Even S6 was giggling.

Of course when S2 did see W he naturally was happy to see her, even though he hated to see our little adventure come to an end.

So, yeah, stick those two in the back seat with their CD's and DVD's and their books and toys, feed them the occasonal happy meal, provide them with plenty of water, juice, a cooler packed with sandwiches, snacks, stop frequently for gas, food and restroom breaks -- and they would be content riding in a car for weeks or months at a time.

I think W missed our S's; she shows no sign of ever missing me personally. Also MIL was away out of town herself, so W had the opportunity to truly experience being alone. Was she ever totally alone the entire weekend? I seriously doubt it. Do I care? Oddly enough, not really. If she saw the OM or not, I have no control over that. So I am not gong to upset myself anymore with her behaviors when I'm not around.

Also, last night when I made my bedtime phone call to my house to speak to my S's, I noted that MIL was having to put them to bed. MIL almost never puts the S's to bed, and certainly never volunteers. (After dinner she always runs to her bedroom to hide from everyone, cloistering herself away to focus on her own interests.) So I knew that this meant W was out of the house again after 8 PM.
But I said nothing -- I didn't want to know or to even raise a care. S6 offered the info that W was at a "meeting". (Yeah, right. Sure.) Let her be stupid. Not my problem.
Posted By: Yoyowife Re: King of Pain, 2 - 10/18/07 04:30 AM
NCB,
I'm glad that you and sons had a nice visit with your dad. I'm sure it meant the world to him. You are such a brave man to take such a long trip with two little ones by yourself. Now that's what I call a "real" man! Forget all that macho stuff, women love a sensitive loving man.
Posted By: LL44 Re: King of Pain, 2 - 10/18/07 04:33 AM
Quote:
Let her be stupid. Not my problem.


You are the KING of detachment. That is so good for your mental well being. You are right, it sucks you don't know what she did while you were gone, but not really caring is great. A meeting...puleeeeeze........

Funny how your kiddos didn't want the trip to end and didn't want to see Mommy. Yesterday I said to D5 "Wasn't it cool Daddy got to finally eat lunch with you at school?" and D5 point blank said "No, I wanted you." LOL!

Is your S2 potty trained? I don't know why I thought about that and your road trip. LOL

Your W is such a fool. Why do these spouses 'throw' us away, we are all not perfect, but darnit, we are good catches.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain, 2 - 10/18/07 04:56 AM
Yoyo,

Like I said, they make it easy. The only bravery was having to worry about W freaking out while I had our S's away in another state. Up until the MLC she's been fairly rational, but since then there have been incidents where she's displayed such paranoia and suspicion of me and my motives (as if I am the one who's acting strange and untrustworthy). And W about had a major hysterical fit Labor day weekend when I took the boys fishing (all discussed/planned well in advance) and she couldn' reach me on the cell phone for about a one hour period. She had actually thought I had parentally kidnapped our children and was fleeing to another state.

So, you can see why I thought she was on edge with me having our S's with me on this trip out-of-state. I think that is the primary reason she was more friendly while we were away, and when we returned she saw that our S's were safely back home, then she could drop the niceties and go back to being cold.

She still doesn't trust me. That's okay; she has an even deeper hole to dig her herself out of with regards to my trust of her.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain, 2 - 10/18/07 05:06 AM
Lwb, your D5 is a smart cookie. She knows who's really looking out for her.

S2 is not potty trained. He still wears pull-ups, and with him turning 3 next month it is time for him to be trained. I think he's more ready than he knows. On the road trip, he seemed to be actually holding it better than S6. He seemed to be drinking plenty of water, but while on the road her tended to hold it despite having a pull-up as his "saftey net".

S6, on the other hand, is potty-trained. And he tends to drink like a camel, only all the time. As a result he had us stopping quite frequently at times.
Posted By: LooseThread Re: King of Pain, 2 - 10/18/07 05:14 AM
Originally Posted By: andyv
NCB,

But since going dark, probably over the last several weeks I have noticed a huge change in W. She is more respectful and agreeable in everything, including custody and asset sharing.

AndyV


Hi andy...when you go dark, does it get worse first before getting better? I've tried going dark in the last few days and got blasted for it last night becuase I hired a babysitter without telling him (can't win...)
Posted By: LL44 Re: King of Pain, 2 - 10/18/07 05:36 AM
Andy, D3 wasn't potty trained until she was just about 3. We didn't think she would make it to preschool (have to be trained), but didn't push it. We were just going to pay for her spot til she was ready. No need to rush is my opinion.

I think its the WAS's normal reaction to be suspicious of us, to think we are going to do all these bad things (cheat like them, take the kids, hide money). I have heard all of those things from H. I never even thought those things, and couldn't believe it when he told me he was very worried those things were going to happen.

Quote:
but since then there have been incidents where she's displayed such paranoia and suspicion of me and my motives (as if I am the one who's acting strange and untrustworthy).


Yes!
Posted By: Yoyowife Re: King of Pain, 2 - 10/18/07 09:47 AM
NCB,
I remember stressing out over my DD not being potty trained as quickly as my friend's DD. I was talking to one of the other teachers and she really put it in perspctive for me. She said "Don't worry about her, I've never known anyone who graduated from high school that wasn't potty trained." We all know when they are ready they are ready. It's one of those things we learn about our children, they all have a mind of their own. My two DD still have a mind of their own, LOL.

Just be glad it's potty training, wait until you have to teach them to drive. That is not fun at all. I think that's when gray hairs started springing up here and there, LOL.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain, 2 - 10/18/07 10:35 AM
No sweat, everyone. Thanks. S2 will be fine. While potty training for S2 is a goal of ours this year, I know it will have to be on his schedule, not ours. His preschool encourages it as a practice. While S2's shown reluctance in the past, I know that he now has the ability to control himself better -- he's ready physiologically, and just needs a little coaxing and encouragement. So I'm not worried.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain, 2 - 10/21/07 06:43 AM
Hi, all,

Just wanted to take a moment from this incredibly crazy busy weekend to leave a note. This weekend I do not have our S's as usual, because I have been working a marathon at work implementing a major project -- one we've been planning and developing for over a year. So W took the boys to the state fair -- wish I could have gone too, but then again I had them for a three-day weekend last week.

Speaking of which, earlier this week I spoke to my brother's wife. She told me she had gotten an email from my W, sent prior to our family get-together at my father's home this past weekend. SIL had not had a chance to read it before this week. Basically W was trying to make me sound as if I was being irrational and damaging to her and our family, by me supposedly putting the extended family and our S's between the two of us. W said in her email that she was fearful of what more harm I might do to our S's -- namely telling them their mother is a lier and denigrating her. She basically warned (threatened) my SIL that she was not going to tolerate any harmful words that might be spoken in front of our S's (either by me or anyone else) during that trip. And then she said something about how I am "so cold and hateful" when I am around her that she always breaks down crying after I finally leave. WTH?!!!

I have to believe that the words written to my SIL were really a poorly disguised attempt to send a message to me. W has already commented to me in private that she thinks my SIL talks too much and can't keep her mouth shut about other people's business, so I would have to think that W expects my SIL to spill the beans. And while SIL did indeed end up sharing the message with me, it was only after SIL asked me first whether I really wanted to hear what W wrote. I almost said no. But since I figure it was a message really meant for me, I figured I might as well know.

So, I see it as just a bunch of Alien Spew (TM) meant to intimidate me through my SIL.

On Friday, I got word from the "grapevine" that W had been to see a L. It is a bit alarming at first blush, but then I've seen a L already myself (as part of my employer's EAP).

Last evening (Saturday) I called to talk to my S's before their bedtime; I also talked to W and I thanked her again for letting me take our S's to see their grandfather last weekend and that I was so glad she got some time to spend with them on such a nice day at the fair. Again, W said "It was the right thing to do."

I then started to mention that I had finally contacted another therapist for S6's Asperger's Syndrome. But W surprised me first by telling me she went to see a L, or in her words "legal counsel". I did not expect her to actually tell me about the visit to the L, but she did. She did however couch it in saying this L was also a mediator and W strongly suggested we opt for mediation. W then suggested we both sign her Separation Agreement. It sounds like this L/mediator might have blessed the SA even though it uses terms unfairly favorable to W at my expense.

I was very calm and nonchalant with her, basically telling W I would like to review anything first before I do anything, especially before agreeing to anything legal. I committed to nothing definite but left her with the possibility of reaching an agreement at some point after careful examination. Yes, stalling tactics.

Then W really tried to get at me and push my buttons. W said, about letting me take our S's on our road trip last weekend, how scared she was, and that she felt getting our custody agreement legalized was now all the more important. I asked her why she said she was fearful. W replied that until recently I was being frequently irrational and unreasonable, and that caused her to fear that I would do something harmful while traveling in another state.

I considered my reply for a moment and said, "So this is a matter of trust in me that is causing you this fear?"

W said yes and repeated that up until recent I have been so irrational and disagreeable.

I paused again and told her I was sorry she feels that way. I didn't press any further. I knew better and remained calm and ignored any bait. My first instinct was to tell her (again) that I am not the one who has been acting untrustworthy and acting unjustly (and that she is the one who is displaying a painful lack in moral integrity). I wanted to tell her that she was constantly assuming the absolute worse about me. I wanted to tell her that my running off with our S's (hiding in another state) would harm me and them more than it would her, and I would never do anything so morally wrong or so hurtful to my children. I wanted to tell her that she has misjudged me and my intentions throughout this entire ordeal. But I knew she would not hear it. I let it go after that.

I think I somehow managed to remain calmly quiet and reserved and ended the conversation in a neutral if not very upbeat, friendly tone. She wasn't getting the fight she would have normally expected.

I am now thinking that something is prompting her actions again. If she was truly scared that I would do something stupid last weekend. Then surely I have now successfully accomplished that which should have allayed those fears? You'd think? In fact, we, the S's and I, had a great trip and I brought our boys right back home all safe and sound. And I and no one in our family said anything at all to our S's about their mother and what was happening to rip their family apart. Nothing was said that would force them to have to "choose between their mother or father", or to cast judgment on their mother's behaviors. The evidence shows that her "fears" were proven unfounded.

No, W is taking a new tact again. She takes any positive actions and behaviors by me as a sign to step up her campaign to end our M.

It makes me wonder. Is there some Anti-DB book out there that the WAS' are following. Because it sure seems sometimes that W is playing the exact opposite approach from DB/DR.

(Wow, so much for a little note!)
Posted By: RedHeadWife Re: King of Pain, 2 - 10/21/07 12:15 PM
It sounds like you are doing really well though. Totally reacting calmly like you did and not allowing her to push your buttoms was awesome.

Keep it up!! That is what will bring her around. She needs to see/know for herself that the changes you are making in yourself are for real. She will hopefully realize that she is going to be losing A LOT.

I know w/ my H, it was me just being supportive and loving instead of kicking his a$$ to the curb like I at times wanted to was what finally brought him around. He realized if I loved him enough to "put up w/" all that he had said & done and still lovingly supported him, he would be pretty "silly" (ok would like to use other words, but...) to let me and our M go.
Posted By: LL44 Re: King of Pain, 2 - 10/21/07 01:54 PM
Ok, wow. Your wife. How do you do it? Can you ship me some calm and patience? Wait, keep it, you need it.

It must be textbook WAS syndrome, because my H at first feared I would pack the kids up, sell the house, keep the money and the kids and never be seen again. I also told him that would benefit no one, and be horrible for the kids, so I would never do it. No matter how much *I* want to run away at times, I'm a staying for the kids. The cold and hateful thing? Where does she get that? What does she want?

Unfortunately you have no other choice but to continue the calm and cool path. Its so hard.

I think they do have an anti DB book somewhere.....

I wonder the motive to tell SIL all of that? Laying the groundwork, to make it look like "This is what I have to deal with every day. No wonder I am stressed and trying to get out. NoCode is crazy!". OhioMark might have to chime in on this one, he gets that too at times.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain, 2 - 10/27/07 10:02 PM
Hello, all,

Get your 2x4's ready.

I've now had a couple of days now to reflect on the latest events on this wild ride. On Wednesday we (the W and I) had a counseling session with a psychologist at a (nationally recognized) center for childhood development. I sought this place out on a referral because of our S6, who has Aspergers. It turns out this organization does not really deal with Aspergers, or rather they are not equipped to focus on that condition, but they do help children and their families try to cope with behavioral problems.

W met for the first time with the therapist (T) last month, and until she found out that W and I were separated, she had reservations as to whether they could help us. Only once she realized that we were separated and the marriage was in jeopardy, were they interested in helping us.

Well, this week we met again with the objective of going over the issues that were leading to the familial strife impacting S6's day-to-day behaviors. The therapist explained again that her role was to not side with either parent, but to act as an advocate on behalf of our S6's interests.

My W leveled another set of accusations against me in front of another person. Again she took the opportunity to rake me over the coals in front of a stranger, and make me out to be the one who is impossible to live with. She did this with S6's teachers and briefly in the first session with this therapist. This time she again got to vent her dissatisfaction with me. The difference this time is that she was again on the tact of getting other people to try to admonish me for opening up to S6, just as she had done with S6's teacher a couple of weeks earlier. She was again berating me for effectively calling her a liar in front of our son and trying to get him to take sides in our argument. W again accused me of trying to put our 2 S's and our family between us, in a matter she considered to be "adult business."

Disturbingly, T agreed with W that the M was something that was coming to an end, and given the arguments between we parents, the separation was a necessity to reduce exposure to our S's. (This alarmed me because this was way too early in our conversation for T to come to this conclusion -- which leads me to question whether T is too much an advocate for divorce herself. That would not be helpful.)

The T agreed with W's basic complaint that what I did might be harmful to S6, not for the exact reason W felt, but because it did put S6 into the confusing predicament of having to decide whether one parent was truthful or not. T said "S6 needs his mother," as if I had to be told that. She said S6 is likely acting out because he feels now that his mother is not being truthful. I conceded the point because I would not want to do anything that would ultimately harm our S's. But I also said that this was trying to choose between the lesser of two evils or wrongs against our S.

Unlike before, I did not zip my lip this time when W tried to get the other person to take her side and gang up on me. I calmly stated my case that this was indeed a difference of opinion, and if I contradicted W's words to our S's, that is not my fault. I had not called W a liar -- I merely told my S, who was parroting her slant on the "facts", that they were just not true. If that led S6 to conclude that Mommy was lying, I was sorry.

But I stated that I also felt it important to not hide the full truth from our S's either, since when, not if, they find out the truth one day, S6 is not going to care that he was "only 6 1/2 years old" -- he's only going to care that his parents split up the family and hid the truth from him. I was not prepared to sacrifice my future relationship with my S just because W wants to play this off as some joint decision between the two of us when it most certainly is not.

I started to break down in tears at this point; it took me several moments to re-gather my composure to be able to continue. I feel that my relationship with my S's is all I have left. I don't want to jeopardize their trust in me -- just as my own father had done years ago -- but if it was in their best interest I would sacrifice that, and I would continue to be complicit in this cover-up if that was truly best for our 2 S's.

The T wanted to get to the bottom of why I felt this was a threat to my future relationship with my S's and their trust in me. Ultimately she got out of me that since I had been the one to actually sacrifice to leave our home to satisfy W's demand for a separation, I feared they would some day blame me for being the one who actually physically left. I also feel the truth is important, and my S's will feel that way too -- I am not the one who wants this separation or D. Despite what W pretends, the OM is a factor in this, in that W has no incentive to fix the M/R.

W kept trying to say to me -- and T -- that what I said to our S's was not true. That I had no way of knowing what the future would hold, so how could I make such "ridiculous" predictions. (On the other hand she also said that our arguments were proof to her that she could never live with me ever again.)

I replied that I was merely using W's own words and actions. W stated for me immediately after the bomb exactly how she expected things to go down: We would be separated for a year, we would then divorce and go our separate ways. She also had a chance to be happy with OM. That's what she said then. Since then, although I have tried what little I could on my behalf, she has done absolutely nothing herself to change this course, so how could she say it could turn out any differently?

In fact in her own dealings with our S's W has been sending mixed messages, which I stated to T. She has been introducing the concept of an older brother, a blended family and a new life out in the country, including a new tree house. W again tried to rebut this, saying I was mistaken and that S6 had gotten confused about their conversations, but I reminded her that she had said as much to me herself.

We ended our session about that point. The T left it up to me to decide how and when to proceed. She said that she did not feel she could help S6 directly at this time, not until this situation with his parents could settle down. But for now she felt she could best help S6 by trying to talk to the two of us. I am to schedule the next session with her when we are ready.

I am not sure I feel this is going to be helpful or not, not anymore. I am not too sure I want to have an avenue for W to beat me up over our failed R (with my insurance footing the bill, no less) when it won't have any positive effect on our M. On the other hand, if it would truly help S6, then I am willing to consider it. I just don't know at this point.

Later that afternoon, W had to call me at work. She mentioned some other business and then rather than let the conversation end she asked me, "So what did you think of our conversation with the T?"

I was silent for a moment, then said, "What do you mean?"
W said, "You do understand what she was saying, that putting S6 and S2 between us is harmful, right?" She said this in a gloating, provocative, "Nyah, nyah, in your face" manner.

I got a bit upset that she was taking such delight in being able to deride me. I told her that I had already apologized over and over for any harm I might have caused, but her continuing to dredge up these ill feelings were just so very hurtful. She launched again into another R talk and history revision. She was saying at one point (again) that I killed the M and that she was done and that I could not/would not accept that our M was over. I stopped her and said, "No, that's where you're wrong. I agree with you that this M is over. That M is dead and I don't ever want to go back to that." I really wanted to tell her I would never go back into a M with this person she has become, because it's too d*mn painful.

I come away from this thinking that I am so much better off when I don't see or talk to her. I know that this is not proper detachment; in fact it's really withdrawal. And much of me wants to withdraw again -- only part of me realizes that that is what got me in this situation in the first place, withdrawing from my wife, my family, my life. I want to retire to my cave, hide in my shell, to lick my wounds. But for the sake of my S's, for the sake of my soul, I swore to God I would not. I have to endure this. Some how.
Posted By: tryingtoholdon Re: King of Pain, 2 - 10/27/07 10:17 PM
Boy your wife is a piece of work. I am so sorry for the pain you are in.

I am curious did the T say anything to your wife about the affair she is having that broke up the family? How did your wife respond when you told the T about her affair?

She sounds like a real lunatic. I think you did good in holding your composure. It speaks volumes to the kind of father you are that you are willing to help your children. (((((hugs)))))) to you.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain, 2 - 10/27/07 10:55 PM
Thanks, TTHO,

W replies to T the same as she does with me or anyone else on the subject of OM. Whenever I allude to W's infidelity, she always dismisses it, passes it off, saying that the OM was not a factor in W deciding to leave me. W says she can never live with me ever again because of me, not OM.

W tries very carefully to never acknowledge the OM. I think her mother and maybe her legal counsel have advised her to no longer say too much on that. She never ever admits wrong now (that's her mother's playbook.) She continues to only say that OM is her "friend".

Still, one doesn't typically plan ocean front weekend getaways, buy mobile phones and put someone on your cellular "family" plan if they're only just a "friend".
Posted By: LL44 Re: King of Pain, 2 - 10/28/07 05:34 PM

Your wife. Your wife. Oh your wife. I think she gets the award from DB for the person to rewrite the most history, and to place the most blame on one person. How frustrating is it when she dismisses OM but yet is planning a future with him. Oh that makes me sooo mad for you.

The fact that she is using your love as a father against you is just pure evil. Of course, you don't want to do anything to hurt your sons. And for the record, you did the absolute right thing when you straightened the facts out for your son. I think you are right, that you might have to continue these painful sessions with your W, for your son's sake. If you can eek even one helpful thing out for his benefit, it will be worth it.

My hat off to you. You amaze me.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain, 2 - 10/29/07 03:23 AM
Thanks so much for the kind words, Lwb. But I cannot in all honesty downplay the results of what happened when I tried to level with my S, unintensional or not.

S6 did indeed state to his teacher that his mother had lied. While I had not called W a liar in front of my S, that is indeed the conclusion he drew. He's not stupid, and while he may be too young to fully understand the subtleties of differing facts and opinions, he has drawn his own conclusions. He wants and needs to believe his mother is being forthright and honest with him, but my differing views have indeed cast her words and deeds as being in stark contrast. I see now that I need to refrain from giving hardly any information to him if I don't want to jeopardize his relationship with his mother, which would be to his detriment (I am less concerned with hers.)

I know what's at stake here, even if my W doesn't. I know personally what it is like to lose one's trust in their parent. I was fresh out of college when my own parents divorced -- and yet it was still very painful. Only recently, after nearly twenty years, have I come to the point of being able to fully reconcile with my own father. I cannot bear the thought of breaking the trust I value with my own S's, especially when I have done nothing to warrant such a loss.

My wife's own account with my S's was already in jeopardy before I ever opened up to S6, but she is too intoxicated with this A right now to see the hurt coming her way in the future. As her husband and friend, my instinct would be spare her, to help her avoid that pain, but she has decided to remove me from that responsibility. So I cannot be accountable for how the seeds of her own screw-ups will one day wreck her relationship with our S's, even if I wanted to. It might sound cold and selfish, but I feel I have to think of my own relationship with our S's -- they don't need to lose both of us.

The pitty is that the woman I once married was so very differentfrom this. I am still continually shocked to this day when I compare the differences between how W was previously and how she is today. It is so chilling.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain, 2 - 10/29/07 08:52 PM
I got an email from my brother's W last night. My nieces have been talking again (their interstate internet grapevine), and we now know when the wedding will be for my oldest nephew, W's sister's son: December 1.

The significance in this is that I have been playing wait and see with my W, to see if she will ever volunteer any information about her sister's family. W knows I love her sister and family as if they were my own, and yet she has obviously intimidated them into minimizing contact with me and my side of the family. (My wonderful nieces are pretty much rogue and defiant of W's wishes.)

I know blood is thicker than water, and my SIL has tried to minimize communication with me, especially since W would be upset with her if she did talk to me. I told my SIL that I understood, and advised her to do nothing to raise W's ire. W holds a grudge like the worst case I've ever seen, and my SIL knows this better than anybody -- so she has to be cautious.

I know my W is going to take my S's with her to go to the wedding. I am curious to see how she plays this, as it will be a serious acid test for how the rest of our lives will be handled.

(1) Will I get an invitation to the wedding myself. (I am not counting on it.)

(2) Will W tell me when the wedding will be?

(3) When will W ask me to take our S's on a trip, thereby giving up my weekend with them (December 1st is on a Saturday.)

(4) Will she even tell me what the trip is for? Or whether it is out-of-state or not?

(5) Will W, after traveling over 800 miles to Mississippi for this wedding, have the decency, to allow my mother, who lives only 42 miles away from my SIL's family, to see her grandsons? Or even allow them to talk to her?

(6) And assuming with some certainty that I will not be welcome at the wedding, will the OM be there? Will the OM get to travel down there to be with her and my S's?


So far all W has acknowledged to me is that our nephew has gotten engaged, and nothing more. If W plays according to her current modus operandi in recent months, she will keep me in the dark right up to the very last second, and thus give me no chance to plan my own trip. Then she'll say, "Aww, too bad; I'm sorry you won't be there. You nephew would really have liked to have you at his wedding. But we all know that your job is so important to you." Blah, blah, blah. (W has done this on so many occasions of late -- especially with parent-teacher meetings. And then she has the gall to complain to me that I never participate in important family matters!)

Unfortunately for W, I am fully awake now and paying very close attention to what is going on. And I am ever wary of her continual tests she sets me up for, to fail.

The test is on her now.
Posted By: LL44 Re: King of Pain, 2 - 10/30/07 01:14 AM
WOW!! I can't wait to hear what her plans for this and how it unfolds. Bottom line, though, we are losing out on things and people that we love.

I totally know what you mean about being 'in the dark' about your inlaw's and family. I miss the updates, and I am sure this will be happening to me in some way soon.

Must be in the handbook to hold grudges. My H is a pro.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain, 2 - 11/01/07 02:51 AM
Had a good time with my S's this Halloween evening. Up until the night before last S6 wanted to go as Lightning McQueen from his favorite movie, Cars. But he changed his mind at the last minute and decided to be Batman. W knew I had a plan to do something special one Halloween when the boys were old enough and in the right frame of mind, so she asked whether this would be a good year to carry out my idea -- I had thought that one Halloween S6 could go as Batman, S2 would go as Robin and I would rent a tuxedo and go as Alfred (as their escort while Trick-or-Treating.)

With S6 changing his mind at the last minute, I had no chance of getting a tux before tonight, which made my plan unlikely. However I happened to find the perfect Teen-Titans Robin costume for S2, and so I decided I would wear a trench coat and go as Commissioner Gordon. I told W I had a new plan, but she warned me that now S2 was in love with the puppy dog costume that S6 had worn when he was that age. I told W we'd let S2 decide for himself, and I had the Robin costume in case he was in favor. I also bought some silver-gray hair paint to turn myself into Gotham's commissioner.

I also took a lantern/flashlight and put a paper bat symbol on its lens, to turn it into a miniature bat signal.

When I drove up to our house, I disccovered that W had worked hard this afternoon to turn our Radio Flyer wagon into the Batmobile. She did such a good job, I was so surprised and delighted. S6 was beaming too, having helped her.

At one point, before we were to go out into the neighborhood, I went into the bathroom to spray my hair with the silver hair-paint. When I came out W said that I didn't look any different. I started to laugh, but then I realized that W wasn't joking. My natural hair color, while shot through with some gray, is still (mostly) dark brown. So I have to think that W was being a little snide and trying to get a rise out of me. I shrugged it off.

We had a great time, the boys and I. My S's looked absolutely cool and adorable at the same time in their outfits. I used some super-hold hair gel on S2's hair to make his "spikey" like Robin's. S2 was so cute! W stayed behind to hand out candy while my S's and I went around the neighborhood with friends and neighbors, and then it was over, all so soon. Another Halloween over.

I thanked W for all her efforts, for helping to pull this off. She really did so much to help out in getting this fun Halloween plan worked out -- I really was not expecting that. I know I shouldn't read to much into it, but it was something my W would have done many years ago.

However, I started to give her a hug in thanks as she was walking by, but she moved out of my reach before I could close the distance. She's still avoiding contact with me. Oh well...
Posted By: LL44 Re: King of Pain, 2 - 11/01/07 01:38 PM
That is so great your W was so into Halloween and did what she *should* do as a mother, make it wonderful for her kids. That makes me happy. Sorry about the possible 'dig' about your hair, but you handled it well. They have to lash out every once in awhile to remind us they are aliens.

Its ok if she is avoiding contact with you, just the fact that she did so much last night is wonderful. Maybe in time.......
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain, 2 - 11/03/07 07:07 AM
I guess the rollercoaster had to take a downturn at some point. With Halloween now a pleasant memory, W had to take the wind out of my sails again. She's started in already talking about the Thanksgiving holiday. She plans to work Thanksgiving day, which is what she usually does since holiday pay is more lucrative for her. In the past we would celebrate Thanksgiving the next day, Friday, with her mother and her aunt and uncle coming over and bringing food. The aunt and uncle are not going to come over for Thanksgiving this year, but they wil stop by briefly on their way to the airport -- apparently they're going to fly out of town on the holiday.

My first thought is I would get to spend the holiday with our S's, since everyone else is not going to be around to truly observe it. But , no, W is trying to dictate to me that I am not to have our S's -- she has planned for S's to be around for the brief visit with her aunt and uncle (who live only two hours east of here). W put it like S's would stay with MIL while W works on Thursday; then Friday S's would visit with IL's in our (my) house, and I would pick them up Friday evening, and I could plan my own (belated) Thanksgiving with my S's on Saturday. WTF?!! Holiday, schmoliday! That's no differenet than any other two-day weekend that I get the boys. I am off on Thursday and Friday -- what am I supposed to do? Twiddle my thumbs?!!

I bit my tongue, and when W asked me what I thought about the plan she was introducing to (foisting on) me, I told her I would "think" about it.

I don't like this; my gut feeling is that W is trying to set a precedent here. This is the first major holiday with us separated and I think she is making a play here. I just don't understand how, even given her selfish little alien-bent mind of late, W could think that a couple of hours (if that) with her aunt and uncle means more to my S's than getting to see their father for two whole days I have available for them. And they're not even going to observe Thanksgiving until W gets home on Friday.

I am still pondering my reponse to this. I am considering several options for counter offers, but I also don't want to aggravate the tenuous so-called R with W either. She knows this is going to start a big fight, and if I don't defend myself here, she's definitely going to walk all over me.

I could agree to her terms about Thanksgiving in exchange for having both Christmas Eve and Christmas Day. I am sure she's going to try to work those days too to garner the extra holiday pay, but I don't think she'd really want to give up both of those days to me. I also don't trust her -- she'd probably take all of Thanksgiving this month, and then, by the time Christmas came around, she'd try to rejigger the deal.

I've also thought to tell W to use one of her days durng the weekdays before the Thanksgiving holiday to take the S's to visit the aunt and uncle at their home, if that's so gol-darn important.

To top it off, when I picked up my S's this evening for my regular weekend custody, W had slipped another draft of her precious Separation Agreement among the boys' things I brought back with them. Nice.

I guess she wants to make sure I don't feel too good about adjusting to this crazy situation. Every good day has to be countered with at least three bad ones.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain, 2 - 11/04/07 09:15 PM
<journaling>

I got an indication this morning of just how wide the gulf is between W and I.

I've been taking our S's to church and Sunday School nearly every week since our separation. W works weekends, so she rarely gets a chance to join us - usually no more than about once a month.

Today as I am driving our S's to today's service, she calls me on the cell phone to say she finished her morning patient early and could squeeze in joining us for Church. My first thought, for all but a millisecond, was "Yeaaay", but it was immediately followed by a sense of annoyance. I feel no spiritual connectedness with this person anymore, especially given what she has become. Part of me is immediately glad for her soul she's at least showing up, but the other part of me is beginning to almost loath this stranger imposing herself on what is usually a very peaceful and spiritually upliftng time for me.

It's like the lyrics from Rascal Flatt's song, "I Don't Want To See You Anymore":
Quote:
...I love it when you're with me,
But I'm better when you're gone...


W showed up today just as the church service was beginning. As per her usual MO of late, she planted herself on the opposite side of our son(s) from me, even when there's space available next to me. No big surprise there.

In the middle of the service, usually right after the offering, they call for the older children to go off to what they call "Children's Church." That's when S6 usually goes for the remainder of the service (S2 is doing well in the 3 & 4 year old nursery.) W or I will escort S6 down the hall to the room where these children are to stay, if no other adult is actively collecting them. When W returns usually, in returning back to her seat in the main service, she never closes the gap between us, the extra seats that our S's had occupied remain empty between us. If I am the one who has taken S6 to his class, when I return I find a bible or hymnal or two taking up the seat I might have once taken next to my wife. She's been keeping her distance fairly consistently in these last four months.

Today was a little different. This time when she escorted S6 to his Children's Church class, she never returned. Her seat remained empty and the printed program/announcement flyer she had been given originally remained unmoved in the seat where she had left it. Up until that point I was really feeling pretty peaceful and somewhat blissful, as I was successful in not giving W too much focus. But then she disappeared. We were all served Holy Communion, we had a sermon, we sang hymns, we had a speaker -- and yet my W was absent.

I chalked it up to maybe she got a phone call from a patient. Or that S6 had had a problem going into his class and she stayed behind with him for some reason. The latter was not so likely as S6 had not had an episode like that in years. Whatever the reason, I continued to try to enjoy the service as if she had never shown up at all.

At the end, however, I stood up and began to walk towards the exit, and then I saw her -- she had returned to the main service after all, but this time she had decided to take a seat at the back of the church, as far from me as she could. She came over to me to tell me to pick up S2 and she would get S6, then she turned tale and scrambled out.

Really, do I have leprosy or something? I was nothing but peaceful and pleasant the whole time, so what practical reason could she have for such behavior? I guess I know now. I don't think I am being overly sensitive about this either (please correct me if I am wrong), it just sucks how she now thinks so ill of me all of a sudden, after 17 years of being together.

I said nothing to her about this, but there is nothing left to be said -- her message was painfully clear.
Posted By: tryingtoholdon Re: King of Pain, 2 - 11/04/07 09:33 PM
NoCode,

I think church would be the hardest place of all for her to be around you. I think it was that very GUILTY conscience of hers is why she kept distance.

Glad to hear that Halloween went well. Maybe this would be a good thing to get some sort os custody agreement if you think she will keep pulling stuff like this. If you have the time off they should be with you.
Posted By: LL44 Re: King of Pain, 2 - 11/04/07 09:46 PM
trying is right. But I am so sorry. H leaves the room most times when the kids aren't with me. It makes me feel awful.

Quote:
Really, do I have leprosy or something? I was nothing but peaceful and pleasant the whole time, so what practical reason could she have for such behavior? I guess I know now. I don't think I am being overly sensitive about this either (please correct me if I am wrong), it just sucks how she now thinks so ill of me all of a sudden, after 17 years of being together.


I could have typed this, but not so many 'together' years. Its just horrible, isn't it?? HUGS, super HUGS! You are a wonderful person and don't deserve this.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain, 2 - 11/07/07 03:20 AM
Thanks, everyone, for the support. I can't tell you much it means to me how everyone supports each other here. We once got this kind of loving support from our spouses at one time, didn't we?

I went to my DivorceCare meeting last night -- another very informative session. It was a session on what the"Owner's Manual" (as they put it) has to say about Divorce and Separation. The "Owner's Manual" being the Holy Bible. I can tell you this, the segment we had several weeks ago on "Single" Sexuality (how starting a sexual relationship too soon can have detrimental effects) would have had my W shrinking in her seat, but last night's segment on what the Bible has to say about Divorce and Re-marrying another -- with very pointed references to Malachi 2:16, 1 Corinthians and various sections in Matthew -- oooh, now that would have had my W fleeing from the room in abject shame and humilation.

After the first 5 sections dealing with issues in very even-handed terms, Section 6 lowers the boom -- and that's as it should be since, frankly, what it says in the Bible on these subjects cannot really be played down.

I still want my W to go to another church's hosting of this program -- it will do her good.

One of the more interesting pieces of information came not from the materials or the video, but from one of our support group participants. I really appreciate having another group of friends, similar to our comradery here in the DB forums to gain advice and help from and to give back to. One of my new friends in the DivorceCare support group had heard about a program very similar (it sounds like) to the Retrovaille program so many DB'ers here are fond of. It's called The Third Option ( http://www.thethirdoption.com/index.htm ). Their site states, "Most struggling couples see two options... Painful marriage or divorce. But there is a Third Option, a way to a better marriage."

At the encouragement of our group, the leader of our DivorceCare group is looking into whether the church here would be interested in hosting one of these programs.

Is anyone here familiar with it? Sara, maybe?
Posted By: LL44 Re: King of Pain, 2 - 11/07/07 04:36 AM
Your meetings that you attend always sound so helpful, glad you keep going. \:\)

I peeked at that website and viewed some of their stuff in the "Help Yourself" section, interesting..... I haven't heard anything about it, they aren't where I live...maybe someday...
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain, 2 - 11/07/07 05:10 AM
Yes, I recommend DivorceCare to anyone here if it is offered by any church or religious organization near you.

As for The Third Option, there's not a location near me either (NC), but the program director at this church is looking into starting it up here. (Incidentally, she's also looking into having the church re-start a group covering "The Search for Significance" as well.)
Posted By: fightingirish Re: King of Pain, 2 - 11/07/07 10:21 PM
no codes,

Im glad the boys are good. they are so fun at this age... my S4 will be 5 on sunday and my S1 will be 2 in two wks.. they grow up so fast, So I am enjoying every moment I have with them.. wasn't able to read through all of your stitch, but wanted to know how you made out with the thanksgiving situation??

im sorry, But your kids seeing their father is more important then anybody else in this point of their life. They need you. Especially right now. I can't imagine how they are feeling.

Hope you have a good nite.. I'll be on and off tonight..

tal
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain, 2 - 11/08/07 05:29 AM
Thank's for looking in on me, Tal.

The arrangements for Thanksgiving are still not set. I have not yet determined what I will do. If we can agree to giving W Thanksgiving in return for me getting Christmas Eve and Christmas Morning, I might be more inclined. It would be more than fair since Friday, Nov 23 is S2's birthday too -- he turn's 3.

But I just know W would renege on that deal, even if she initially agrees to it, rationalizing the importance of our S's being in "Mommy's" warm and cozy house (my house)-- instead of Daddy's apartment -- for such an important holiday.

I think I forgot to mention that on Monday W has since added another twist to this tale. Now she also wants me to give up the preceding Saturday as well -- so her cousin and her family can see our S's as they're passing through town that day (Nov.17). (This is W's cousin whose daughter has NVLD.) While I truly think it's important that my S's get to see their extended family, and I don't want to seem like I am impeding their opportunities to do so, I am feeling this is going too far. Now, not only would I not get to spend my two extra day's off with my kids during the holiday, but now W is suggesting that I cut my measly two weekend days in half on the weekend before. WTF?!!! Again, I said nothing for or against, but in my mind what she is asking is just not right.

To my face W has been stressing how important I am to my S's lives, how she wants me to continue to be their father even though "we can never live together again as husband and wife." But her actions say something entirely different -- she has so little disregard for my role in their lives that she puts me so far down in the priorities of their needs.

I related all of this to my support group on Monday -- they feel I should seek out a L and get a custody agreement set in writing. I've now had 48 hours to consider all of this. If W pushes so much as a hair's breadth further on this, I am going to the L and getting my own version of a separation agreement (SA) drawn up, one far more equitable than the ones she's tried to foist on me so far.

I really didn't want to have to go this far so soon, but W seems to be forcing us down this road. She shows hardly any respect or consideration for me, even when it would be in our S's best interests, so maybe a little tough love will shake her up some. Or at least get her to back off.

I can't make up my mind. As an alternative, I had inquired with my church in going with them to Mississippi on a Katrina Mission trip (to help the victims down on the Gulf Coast). If I can't be with my family on Thanksgiving, then I figure I could at least help someone far less fortunate than myself have a better holiday. But I spoke to the organizer and unfortunately the schedule for this trip just doesn't work out for me to be able to go -- they leave on Tuesday the 20th and don't get back until late Sunday the 25th. I really don't want to miss S2's birthday altogether.

Instead, there are other opportunities with our church in which I can serve locally, so I'll look into those. If it works out, then maybe it won't be so bad for me, but I still worry about my S's. Should I insist on spending the time with my S's? I don't want to back down, or be seen as backing down, quite so easily. Does anyone have any thoughts on these sorts of matters?
Posted By: LL44 Re: King of Pain, 2 - 11/08/07 05:53 AM
Wow nocode, I think that's a great idea to help others over the holidays. I am so sorry she is disregarding the importance of your time with your sons. And yes, I think if you have one more incident where you feel she is pushing you aside, you will have to get something in writing. It seems like she takes days and times away from you but doesn't offer anything in exchange, like an extra day here or there. That makes me sad for you and your boys.

Don't forget (and I know you won't), your apartment is just as warm and cozy as the house (YOUR house, I get that), because you, Daddy, live there.

HUGS
Posted By: Sara Re: King of Pain, 2 - 11/08/07 06:10 AM
Blue,

I had not heard of The Third Option before, but I looked briefly at their website and I would say it looks like a good program. It differs from Retrouvaille, because that begins with a weekend retreat totally devoted to building communication skills. Then retrouvaille follows up with 6 post sessions. To me, The Third Option looks similar to the post sessions. It certainly would be a great thing for a church to offer. There is surprisingly a lot to be learned about getting along in marriage. And we all just go along muddling through. But the truth is, if you learn the skills, it does work better.

As for your visitation schedule, I would recommend that you work lawyer to lawyer. Your wife is trying to dominate all decisions, and you don't want to rile her. But she will continue to deny you your fair share of time with your kids if you allow it. The boys should be with you on your son's birthday if you have the time off, and she doesn't. Don't let her push you around. It won't make her like you any better.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain, 2 - 11/08/07 09:40 PM
Thanks, Lwb, Sara,

The more I think about it the more this is starting to rial me. The fact of the matter is that Thursday, November 22, is a holiday and the next day is S2's birthday. These are two separate events, two separate milestones to share with our sons. If W is of the mind to not want to share our S's at the same time on these days, then so be it -- that's her choice. Misguided or not.

So if W wants to work on Thanksgiving, let her. I'll gladly celebrate Thanksgiving and S2's birthday on Thursday, and she can do whatever she wants on Friday. Then, I can pick them up Friday night, as usual.

As for Christmas, one of us can get Christmas Eve and the other Christmas Day.

If W gives me any grief over it, I'll get a Separation Agreement ready -- or at the least a Custody Agreement (big stealthy surprise for W: I won't settle for anything less than joint physical custody as well as joint legal custody. She's pushed me too far on this.)

This is so depressing; I hate to sound like a parable from King Solomon's times.
Posted By: fightingirish Re: King of Pain, 2 - 11/08/07 10:29 PM
nocodes,

personally I wouldn't back down, but then again im feeling mad today:)


I definately think you need to see a L and get your own agreement written..Its important, and obviously she doesn't really care about how often you see them as long as she decides.

So please nip that in the bud!!

Hope your having a decent evening!

tal
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain, 2 - 11/09/07 06:14 AM
Thanks again, Tal.

I sent the L an email this evening, asking for a quote of drafting up a Separation Agreement.

I am too tired to go into any great detail, but I had a "conversation" with my W over finances. She's perturbed at me for how I handled our joint account, and I so I realize I must, for my own sanity, get her name off of that account, pronto! The financial disagreements always lead into an R talk, and I should know better.

Wow, she can be such a pain! She is so disrespectful. I know that, ultimately, my own well-being should have no dependency on her, but why does she think that I have to be in a no-win situation for her to be happy?

Sometimes I just want to ask her a barrage of questions. What the h*ll happened to the woman I married? Has she ever really been true, or was she just a fabrication? Has she been this way secretly for all these years and just hid it well? In defending her reasons for killing our marriage she claims it was not the A that led her to this -- how can I be sure? She's lied about so much else. And she's also said that she was never unfaithful with me until recently, even though she's "had plenty of opportunities" (as she's put it) -- is this really true? How am I to know? Had she actually been unfaithful all along. And what is really going on inside her head when she talks to our S's when I am not there?
Posted By: Dr LOve Re: King of Pain, 2 - 11/09/07 11:53 AM
Originally Posted By: NoCodeBlues

Sometimes I just want to ask her a barrage of questions. What the h*ll happened to the woman I married? Has she ever really been true, or was she just a fabrication? Has she been this way secretly for all these years and just hid it well?



NOC,

I ask myself these same questions. And since the was screwing her XBF I wonder if she was just trying to get back at him by marring me.

Originally Posted By: NoCodeBlues


In defending her reasons for killing our marriage she claims it was not the A that led her to this -- how can I be sure?



Don't sweat this, It is true that the affair did not lead HER to screwing up your marriage.
But it sure helped you decide it was screwed up.
but if you refure back to quote #1 then this does not matter anyway

Originally Posted By: NoCodeBlues



She's lied about so much else. And she's also said that she was never unfaithful with me until recently, even though she's "had plenty of opportunities" (as she's put it) -- is this really true? ?


BIG DEAL, WE ALL HAVE HAD "OPPORTUNITIES" But some of use honored our wedding vows
She is most likley saying this to hurt you.


Husband
Posted By: tryingtoholdon Re: King of Pain, 2 - 11/09/07 02:04 PM
I am sorry you are hurting. You know if she brings up another R talk then by all means ask her anything you want to if it helps you get past this hurt.

I don't blame you one bit for getting a seperation agreement. She sounds like she is screwing with you. She CAN'T be there for the holiday because of work. But doesn't want to let you enjoy it because she can't have it either. That's what it sounds like to me. A vengeful angry woman.

If having her on the account causes you stress then do what you have to do for your own sanity.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain, 2 - 11/09/07 09:27 PM
Thanks, Husband. I'm not sweating it. I have the same thoughts myself whenever she unloads this cr*p on me. Including when W mentioned her "opportunities" to be unfaithful over these 16 years -- I was thinking to myself, "So what?!! Me too! You want a reward or something for doing what you are supposed to do anyway when you're married? For doing what you promised to God you would do, to foresake all others, but then you reneged on that promise?" Sheesh! It's no wonder I have teeth holes in my tongue.

Trying, we do what we can do, endure what we can. I am trying to think of my sons first, and she's just making it more difficult. I am at the point where even if by some miracle we were to reconcile our marriage, I think I would still insist on separating our finances. Even now, she is still trying to micromanage my business even when she has abdicated that right.

I got a reply back from the L -- they want a $1500 retainer just for handling the SA -- Ouch!

I think I am going to look for my own mediator.
Posted By: tryingtoholdon Re: King of Pain, 2 - 11/10/07 12:57 AM
Maybe shop around. There could be one cheaper. Or it could be the best money you ever spent if it gives you peace. I don't know if you mentioned but does your wife have a lawyer?

I would just tell her to back off your business. Tell her she gave up that right.
Posted By: GainingStrength Re: King of Pain, 2 - 11/10/07 06:50 AM
NCB - I just have to chip in because your sitch is almost identical to mine (see below), except I'm just a little older than you. We even had our separations on the exact same date.

Also, both my W and the OM are apparently in MLC, both see their R as their last best chance for eternal bliss. My W sees this as a chance to trade her older H in for a newer model (OM is 39). Then she won't have to worry about slowdown and/or illness. OM has never been married and probably sees W as his last good chance. Ironically, W had a tubal ligation after our second child. She says she's going to get it reversed and have children with OM... Crazy, huh?

My W also insists that the A and the OM didn't break up our marriage, we did (this must be in their handbook also, along with ILYBNILWY, and "I've had opportunities for affairs before...."). Of course this is total bullsh*t. The euphoria provided by the OP gives a spouse every incentive to end the M and none to save it.

Regarding the holidays, my W lined up a mediator right away, which I highly recommend in place of dueling L's who will cause more dissent while draining both of you dry. Anyway, early on in the process, we agreed on custody during the holidays. As is widely accepted, one spouse gets the kids on Thanksgiving, the other on Christmas. The next year, it is reversed. The upshot is no way should your W get the kids on both holidays. Don't let her get away with that.

Anyway, your W sounds every bit as insane as mine. That must be prerequisite for obtaining the Marriage Wrecking Handbook.

I know exactly what you're going through. Hang in there.

LL
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain, 2 - 11/10/07 02:47 PM
Thanks, Larry,

I appreciate it. Yeah, the WAS all seem to speak from the same playbook. They say and do some of the same things, and come to some of the same ways of thinking. It is so scary and remarkable at the same time.

It's just that I am still astonished that my W could ever stoop to this. We talked about marriage and divorce at great lengths before we decided to marry. We felt out each others' personalities very carefully during our dating period. Our thoughts and values were so very much in sync, and we both stood fast in our faith and our beliefs. We knew where each of us stood.

But now to hear my W speak -- especially about Marriage, Divorce and God's grace -- you'd think she had a brain transplant. Her hostility towards me is so pervasive, springing forth all of a sudden. She trys to tell me that with me out of her life she is so much more at peace, but I tell her I would never know it given how she acts. She now rationalizes Divorce and how it is better for children than what would result if she had stayed with me. She twists the purpose of God's grace to excuse what she would have at one time said was sinful and wrong.

This is not the person I married. Or so I thought.

If I could be wrong about W, in that I would have thought she would have been the last person to ever go down this road, then maybe I have been wrong about so much more. So naturally I am now questioning everything I ever thought about her. I am questioning whether I ever really knew her, as I thought I had at one time. Perhaps she's been presenting a facade with me -- and herself -- all these many years.

I have to ask these questions now. I may never know the real answers, but it is only natural to ponder them given what has happened.
Posted By: GainingStrength Re: King of Pain, 2 - 11/11/07 06:25 AM
NCB - My W too seems to have been kidnapped and replaced by some evil alien. You hear this theme in the DR book and over and over on this forum. I've read and thought about that a lot and it seems probable that the spouses we knew are really still in there, but buried deep by the influence of the MLC and/or A. They are very powerful and destructive forces. The experienced MC experts write that time eventually allows that old core self to re-emerge. By that time though, they have often destroyed their families and all love that the LBS once had for them.

Regarding religion, my W is converting to Catholicism. She talks a lot about ethics, "taking the high road", and how often she goes to mass. Thinking back, she informed me of her desire to convert about a year and a half ago. Turns out the OM, whom she already knew through work even before then, is a devout Catholic. What a coincidence! The upshot here is it doesn't matter what religion the WAS embraces, they will twist it to justify and rationalize whatever they have to do to get what they want so badly.

These WAS also will lose all empathy for their LBS's and just about everyone else except their OP. They will say such incredibly cruel, callous and hurtful things, like your W saying that with you out of her life she is so much more at peace. Mine told me that with her OM she is now getting love and feeling so much lighter (now that she no longer has to live with me).

My W also was very judgmental before about people who had A's or got divorced (she even bought a little decorative rock for our backyard which was inscribed "Our marriage is forever." It seems to have gone missing). Now she rationalizes it like yours saying children are resilient and will not be harmed by D "as long as they are surrounded by love."

The conclusion is that the WAS's feelings of euphoria from the A and/or fear from the MLC drive all their thinking. They will therefore rewrite history and rearrange reality to support their feelings and reinforce their illusions.

There are no good answers here, except to take care of your kids and work hard at GAL.

LL
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain, 2 - 11/12/07 02:42 PM
I saw my IC again yesterday. On the subject of the holidays he said what I already know -- don't let W get away with trying to claim all of the important days coming up.

On the subject of my W and her nephew's (W's sister's son's) wedding, he (my IC) also strongly suggests that when W announces her plans to go take our S's to Mississippi that weekend for this event that I tell her I will go as well. I should not agree to W taking our S's on a weekend (my agreed-upon normal time to be with them) unless I get to go as well; I don't necessarily have to be invited to the wedding either, but to be there to visit with my family and take care of my S's. That way I can ensure that my S's get to see their grandmother (my mom).

I am giving this some serious thought and am inclined to do just that. On the other hand, I also know that this will likely be seen by my W as an act of war.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain, 2 - 11/12/07 03:26 PM
On another note, I have to share this with all of you.

Early this morning, I was reading from my daily devotional, Billy Graham's Hope, and today's entry was on the demise of the family in modern life. This was so very poignant given our situations. This passage asks us to consider that the reason for the break up of so many families, and for nearly all the ills we see, is that we place "self ahead of sacrifice".

That struck me so profoundly, that I nearly got up right at that second to get down on my knees to pray -- and then I caught the words following that... and they were asking me to do that very thing, to get down on my knees and pray to God and seek his forgiveness and to find the love needed to restore our family.

I proceeded directly to my knees at that point and was in tears. I know without a doubt that He was speaking directly to me through my readings. I prayed for a long time (and was late getting ready for work.)

But that is not all. As I was finishing my prayers, a thought struck me right out of the blue. My W is so insistent on a separation agreement (SA), because she has no trust in me (among so many other things.) But the thought that hit me was that maybe W needs (we need) not a Separation Agreement, but a Reconciliation Agreement.

Again, I was dumbfounded that this epiphany occurred so suddenly. I have to believe that God is trying to tell me something.

Now part of me realizes that with my W still selfishly involved in some form of A (PA or EA) with the OM, she is far, far away from having any interest in even a "level 1" reconciliation, and so all she wants right now is the separation and ultimately the divorce. She is not ready for this now, and she may never be.

But I am beginning to think that, given her MLC and her resulting A and the pursuit of the separation and the SA, W is seeking some guarantees out of life, for her peace and happiness -- for which there are never any guarantees. She says she cannot work on our relationship because she cannot/will not trust me -- so may be we could put my commitment into writing, spelling out what efforts and communications she and I will undertake to rebuild our family and to work on our relationship.

I know for myself and how I currently view written agreements with my W, given how she treats our marriage license and our vows before God, her signature is not worth the paper its written on. So for me, I would be entering this on an act of faith that God will hold her to her word. I don't need a piece of paper, but if that's what W needs, then so be it.

I am pondering this for now, and wondering what others here might think.
Posted By: Yoyowife Re: King of Pain, 2 - 11/12/07 08:58 PM
NCB,
You are right, she is an alien, as many of our spouses are.

Here are my thoughts. I think what you counselor suggested about the wedding trip is excellent. I would not have thought of something like that on my own. Not only is it fair, it also lets her know that they are not "just" her children. If she chooses to continue this, there will be lots of compromise as far as the children go. She will not be able to just get up and go and do with children as she pleases. There will be several factors to consider such as whose weekend it is, etc. She needs to see this is not going to be a walk in the park. I think all of this can be done without hostility on your side. I know that is your goal to limit the hostility. We get so worried about their feelings that sometimes we overlook our own needs, actually let's change that sometimes to many times!

As far as the credit card problem goes, since you are an accountant I think you are in excellent position to divide the payments up fairly. I would explain it all in writing and give copy to her.

Take care and just keep praying. God will not let us down.
Posted By: LL44 Re: King of Pain, 2 - 11/12/07 11:18 PM
yoyo is brilliant. Keep us posted.

I was giggling at your post on Yoyo's thread, about how she was sneaking out the smaller cards, and giving you the big ones to keep it simple. \:\)
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain, 2 - 11/13/07 04:44 AM
Thanks so much, Yoyo, for not only seconding what the IC advised, but to offer your own insight as well.

And, yes, lwb, Yoyo is indeed brilliant... and so are you.

I find I am less and less worried about all these eggshells, so I have already put my time into our departmental calendar at work to take that weekend as a four-day time off. I am going to see my IL's and my mother whether W likes it our not.

I will be curious to see just when W decides to finally let me know she's going -- she'll cr*p her pants when I tell her I have already prepared to go as well!
Posted By: LL44 Re: King of Pain, 2 - 11/13/07 04:49 AM
Quote:
she'll cr*p her pants when I tell her I have already prepared to go as well!


I love it!!!! \:\)

You know, I accept all invitations to H's family stuff and plan on doing so until THEY tell me otherwise. I will never make it difficult on them or uncomfortable. I would prefer they 'side' with H if we are over, does that make sense? But, I love them and they love me, so at this time, H can make HIS choice whether to go, I am going. lol

Can't wait to hear about her reaction!!

PS: I find I am less worried about eggshells these days as well. Aaaah, freedom...
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain, 2 - 11/13/07 11:47 PM
Hi, lwb, maybe we're just getting to the point where we've dealt with their cr*p so much we begin to just not care so much about being nice anymore. They don't seem to respect us either way.

<journaling>
After being on the waiting list since July, I finally went to an appointment with UNC's program for research and aid for people with Autism Spectrum Disorders, including Asperger's Syndrome (AS). If you've followed my sitch, you know that my S6 was diagnosed a couple of years ago with AS, and that has been one of the sources of friction between my W and I.

Well, today's opening intake interview was to focus on me, to see if I need to be diagnosed with having AS or some related disorder. My W has been insistant that S6's condition is no accident, and given her characterization for how I have treated her in our marriage she feels that "there must be something wrong" with me. I cannot rule out the possibility of me having AS -- I do seem to have a few of the more stereotypical traits that characterize people with AS, shyness, tendencies to introversion, etc. Even so, I would attribute the problems in our M to more important factors. But as I have theorized elsewhere in these threads, I know deep down the real reason W wants to have me diagnosed is to be able to throw off blame from herself on two levels -- (1) our son's condition and (2) the failings in our marriage.

For my part, I have agreed to have myself checked out for my son's sake. If I do have some form of this disorder, then obviously I would have the best perspective in helping him get through this. (Like G.I. Joe says, knowing is half the battle.)

In today's inteview, I talked for a long time this morning with one of the psychologists. I guess for about an hour and a half, seemed a lot longer. She asked me many questions about myself, my recent history that led me to them, and about my childhood. We focused on how well I interacted with other people over my lifetime, the duration of friendships, how my M is unraveling, etc. We talked about my experience with grade school, high school, college, dating and how I have been able to get along with people in my work. We talked about my W, my 2 S's and how I view my family. We also talked about how I got along with my parents, and how I only recently reconciled with my own father.

We covered quite a bit of ground, and at a few points she allowed me to ask a few questions in response. I asked her several questions about AS, especially how marriages to a partner with AS tend to be short-lived, if they ever marry at all -- I asked primarily out of concern for S6's future. I told her that I am concerned for how S6 is going to be able to proceed in life with this "handicap" and that I want to be better informed to be able to help guide him better as his father.

Towards the end, the psychologist let me know that she did not feel that I exhibited any signficant traits that would lead them to further testing me for AS. She explained that in my various modes of communicating with her in this session, both verbally and nonverbally, I showed only typical/"normal" traits. And certainly the history I conveyed to her and the focus I placed on events in my life were not characteristic of people with AS. At most she thought that the shyness and social difficulties in my past were more due to social apprehension rather than any physiological disability.

In summary, based on her assessment, she did not feel it would be necessary for further testing of myself, but that we would instead place the focus on S6, who is slated to come in to see them in January. She offered that, if instead I felt like I needed to be futher tested, I could call them back to arrange for further tests be performed (likely involving getting in depth input from my mother to try to see if they can find any such traits from my youth) but otherwise she was satisified that it wasn't necessary.

Bottom line: I don't exhibit tendencies strong enough to warrant a diagnosis of Aspergers.

I drove away feeling a bit torn. Part of me would have welcomed a positive diagnosis, even if it meant W would feel justified in ditching our M. I think the commonality with my S6 would have been a benefit to our relationship -- and right now I realize that I love my S's a whole lot more than I love my W. At this point I value my fatherhood far more than my M.

The other part of me is just angry and hurt. While feeling a little relieved. And feeling a little "I told you so!" towards my W. She is putting us all through this emotional h*ll. So selfish. Part of me wants to gloat, and part of me wants to cry.

Will I tell W? What will I tell her? Whatever I say to her, it won't mean much to her either way. She is just looking for an excuse, any excuse.
Posted By: Dr LOve Re: King of Pain, 2 - 11/14/07 12:02 AM
Nocode,

get your W tested

Husband
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain, 2 - 11/14/07 01:23 AM
Originally Posted By: husband
Nocode,

get your W tested

Husband



ROTFLMAO!

Thanks, Husband, I needed that.

Back in July I actually did try to suggest that to W ... but she wouldn't hear it -- thought I was nuts.

I do love how someone here (I forget who) described the WAS's behavior -- as the results of an "empathy bypass" procedure.
Posted By: LL44 Re: King of Pain, 2 - 11/14/07 01:40 AM
Quote:
as the results of an "empathy bypass" procedure.


MY turn for a laugh and a thank you. \:\)

Onto more serious things...

Quote:
At this point I value my fatherhood far more than my M.


I am with you on this one. I can also say the same about the love thing as well.

Quote:
Will I tell W? What will I tell her?


Tell her about what? Your non diagnosis? How you feel about the marriage? I am tired, so I got confused, sorry if I missed something.
Posted By: Dr LOve Re: King of Pain, 2 - 11/14/07 02:46 AM
Originally Posted By: NoCodeBlues
Originally Posted By: husband
Nocode,

get your W tested

Husband



ROTFLMAO!

Thanks, Husband, I needed that.

Back in July I actually did try to suggest that to W ... but she wouldn't hear it -- thought I was nuts.

I do love how someone here (I forget who) described the WAS's behavior -- as the results of an "empathy bypass" procedure.


Nocode,

Really.... I am glad I made you laugh but really …Did your W say it was hereditary? If it's not you it must be her...

Husband

Hey Nocode .. E-mail me your E-mail Manuelm1@comcast.net
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain, 2 - 11/14/07 05:30 AM
Husband, I just sent you an email.

My W, the RN, who thinks she's an "expert" on Asperger's and Autism Spectrum Disorders just because she reads a lot of books on the subject, should know better than to push a hereditary link and assume that one has been fully proven -- the jury is still out on that one. They (the real experts) feel there could also be a perinatal cause, with several different possibilities for that. So it could also have been triggered by the allergic reaction to liver toxins she had about two weeks prior to giving birth to S6. We just don't know.

Lwb, I meant that I have been cattle-prodded by my W to get screened for AS so she could satisfy in her own mind that these negative facts in our lives -- the failure in our marriage and the problem our son has with AS can be pinned on me. Now that I can prove her assertions are unfounded because her basic premise is untrue, I don't really know what to say to her. I don't know if at this point letting her know she's wrong about me is going to have any positve effect. I know I need to act "as if" and not try to anticipate her reaction or her next step, but I can't help but know she will either ignore and deny my new facts, or move on to the next excuse.

I think I just have to tell her that I can't stop her from what she wants to do. It's her life and while I want to renew our marriage and rebuild our family I can't keep her from running away if that's what she really wants. So, now that we know that this AS gambit is pointless, she needs to stop trying to find excuses and demonizing me.

I find that W's lack of curiousity about my intake interview is in itself quite curious. I am sure she is very curious, but she has not asked yet. I know she remembers that it was today. Oh, well, perhaps she's convinced she already as all the answers and doesn't need me to corroborate.
Posted By: Dr LOve Re: King of Pain, 2 - 11/14/07 12:07 PM
Originally Posted By: NoCodeBlues
I find that W's lack of curiousity about my intake interview is in itself quite curious. I am sure she is very curious, but she has not asked yet. I know she remembers that it was today. Oh, well, perhaps she's convinced she already as all the answers and doesn't need me to corroborate.


Nocode,

I would wait then until she asks, IF she asks. This "lack of curiousity" must also be a WAS trait. My W does not asks me much eather. Not sure why. I think she is afraid of starting a conversation going that may lead to R talk.


Husband
Posted By: tryingtoholdon Re: King of Pain, 2 - 11/14/07 01:46 PM
Yeah maybe that is a good idea to wait until she asks. Maybe you could just suggest that it's her turn to get tested so you can make sure it isn't hereditary.
Posted By: Michael Mc C Re: King of Pain, 2 - 11/14/07 01:56 PM
Since "they" still have questions about this being hereditary, I see no harm in suggesting she get tested. Whether or not she does is a completely different story. In my sitch, my wife would turn around and say "but I'm not the one with issues".

Your W's lack of curiosity could be due to the fact that she knows she's grasping at straws. I agree with you, now that this has been dispelled, she'll find other reasons why YOU have the lead role in all life's problems.

Early on I would have told my wife the good news as a test to see where her head was, fully expecting, I'm sure, that she'd be happy for me - proving she still has love for me. That's not me anymore though. If things were fine between you, of course you would but now, if she wants to know, let her ask. IMO.u
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain, 2 - 11/18/07 03:42 AM
It's been a few days since I updated my sitch. And lot has happened that I am still trying to sort out.

Well, the W finally asked about the intake interview. It came up during a cellphone conversation on Wednesday night, when she started to say something about the other therapist we had gone to see last month (who was not really a specialist with Asperger's children, but was willing to take the insurance money to have us merely discuss our parenting skills and act as S6's "advocate"). I was replying that I was no longer in favor of continuing that path even though the therapist was a referral from my employer's insurance plan, and W was agreeing fully about the dubious benefit we would see in pursuing that route when she suddenly remembered and said, "Oh, by the way, how did your meeting go with the UNC group?"

I then told W all about what that interview involved, and I led W through to the end where the conclusion made was that there was just not enough traits they could see in me to pursue anymore tests for Asperger's Syndrome (AS).

W's initial reaction was a sort of, "um, okay... ?" She really did not have much of a response. She did not try to belittle it or blow it off, but she also did not admit that she had made a mistake either, which I really never expected anyway from her. She tried to quietly regroup at that point and push on to a tangent about our S6. From that point on she tried to stay focused on what the UNC group could do for S6 and made no more mention of what they could do to diagnose me.

It was a quiet victory, if you could call it that. But all in all, the entire conversation was somewhat pleasant and positive, even in the lead-up to the topic of my AS screening results. At no time did we argue, in fact we seemed to agree on everything. We seemed on the same page in making decisions about our sons, including therapies for S6. It was odd and more characteristic of how we saw eye-to-eye so well in prior years.

Most importantly she was softening up with regards to the upcoming holidays. I had begun to talk to her via email on Monday to inquire whether she was interested in hearing my thoughts on her original proposals for Thanksgiving. We've since had several emails passed between us. She announced that her cousin would not be stopping by on the way through here this weekend, and that she had to agree that it was more important for our 2 S's to be with their father on a holiday than to visit with a Great Aunt & Great Uncle, especially since she was definitely going to be working that day anyway. So that opened a line of dialog where we're negotiating the specifics for how we arrange for our children to spend time with us, separately.

That leads into another subject. We have had a lot of emails between us this week. After several weeks now of me being mostly dark, with the exceptions of a few backslides in that regard, I was testing the waters of détente. For the most part W has seemed very receptive and encouraging. She has even thanked me for communicating openly and fully with her again. For some reason she actually seemed pleased to se that I was coming out of stealth mode and was willing to engage her via email conversation.

This dialog has almost entirely been R related, but I don't think I hurt my position even if it might not have really helped it either. Thursday W began to reopen the subject of our problems in communication in our M, and from there we're back discussing what happened and what we each think went wrong.

This dialog has been in very dangerous territory for proper DB'ing, and it seems like W is enticing me to come out of "silent running" so she can either honestly talk or to start launching "depth charges" (to continue the submarine warfare analogy) ...in a sucker punch maneuver -- I'm not quite sure which. However, when she begins to use words like "I've given up. I have nothing left to give. I’m sorry. It just hurts too bad. I haven’t seen anything from you that makes me inclined to trust you. I don't believe you've really changed." then I realize she's back to trying to get me to give her more ammo to continue running away from the M. This latest retreat by her came when I mentioned that she had failed to give me an ultimatum before she began to silently walk away.

At no point, in recent weeks, have we discussed the OM and the A. At several points in this latest dialog where she was blaming me for a lot of our marital ills, I refrained from mentioning those serious, elephant-in-the-middle-of-the-room transgressions by her, out of concern that she would run away again rather than hear about her own peccadilloes. Other than the bit about the ultimatum, I have played way to nice but without becoming a doormat. (I have learned that being the doormat only hurts me more than not, so I will defend myself where I deem it is warranted.)

I really don't know whether to go back to silent running or not.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain, 2 - 11/20/07 02:32 AM
Okay, 2x4 time. No, don't bother, I've got my own to whack myself with. But feel free to join in.

After another response from W via email, I began to retrace the thread of our conversation over the last week. And then it struck me -- no wonder W is being so friendly and conversational, not only does she never acknowledge that her A is a serious breach both in her character and our M, at no time in this dialog has she fully accepted her part in the failure of our marriage. She's letting me take all the blame again. When she says she's "sorry", it's in the context of being sorry that I screwed up, not her.

She's eating this up -- she's getting to scapegoat me (again) for all that is wrong.

Man, I can be such a patsy! I know I now need to re-read DR, since this is going way beyond "as-if" into foolishness.

The latest "spin" that W is trying to pass off is that, in response to my statement (of fact) that she never gave me an ultimatum (which I have repeated to her several times over the last four months), she now claims she did mention to me about divorce prior to the bomb. WTF?!!! Cuckoo! Insane!

There's an old saying - don't argue with a crazy person lest you go crazy as well.


So I am going dark, folks. Pitch black. I'll be friendly, cordial even (only for our children's sake), but I'm not going to play these games anymore. No, not when she's still looking for ammo. Whether it's by being friendly or nasty, building her case against me is all she's interested in.

She says she can't trust me! Trust she says? Hah!
Posted By: LL44 Re: King of Pain, 2 - 11/20/07 02:54 AM
Quote:
she now claims she did mention to me about divorce prior to the bomb. WTF?!!! Cuckoo! Insane!


I hear this too! I don't know where I was when my H approached me that our marriage was in trouble prior to the bomb, but apparently he did it all the time? WTF?

Quote:
She says she can't trust me!


I can 'one up' you on this one. Not only can H *not* trust me, he thinks I am cheating on him. CUCKOO for sure!

My H flat out refuses to talk about how OW could possibly be part of our problem. When we R talk, we conveniently only have enough time to go over all MY issues, somehow never seem to talk about what he has done to tear us apart.

I feel for you. Dark and cordial. I totally agree. HUGS!
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain, 2 - 11/20/07 03:13 AM
Originally Posted By: lwb

I can 'one up' you on this one. Not only can H *not* trust me, he thinks I am cheating on him. CUCKOO for sure!


Hah! Whoa there, little lady! Don't be so sure -- A few weeks ago S6 let slip that W thinks I have been going to both my DivorceCare support group and my Bible studies group just to pick up women! (I about choked on the coffee I was sipping when I heard that!)

I've been keeping this knowledge to myself -- chuckling the whole time at W's silliness --and wondering how best to use it. \:\/
Posted By: theforlornhope Re: King of Pain, 2 - 11/20/07 12:04 PM
Save that one for why you're the better parent at the D proceedings. God forbid it gets that far.

That's nothing she should tell a 6 yr old.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain, 2 - 11/20/07 08:17 PM
Hello, Forlorn.

I don't think W told S6 directly about what she thinks (at the least I really hope she wouldn't.) S6 probably overheard W and MIL conversing about me. (S6 tends to be a bit of a sponge.)
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain, 2 - 11/21/07 05:07 AM
<journaling>
I struggle with myself at times in how I respond to my W sometimes. She says she appreciates it when I communicate with her now -- but it is pleasant only because she gets to hear me admit to my faults while avoiding hers. We never address her A, her MLC or her shift in values. I realize I may never get an admission or and acknowledgment from her for why she is walking away, but it's so unfair.

When I began dating my W over 17 years ago, she was coming out of a bad relationship. W has had self-esteem problems stemming from an abusive step-mother, which has translated into a string of bad relationships with men who did not treat her right. W was going to therapy with a support group for co-dependency. Her problem was that she had been choosing "broken" men assuming they would love her back for "fixing " them. I realize now that it gave her a measure of control over them as well, something else she enjoys.

W said that when she began dating me she was ready to start a relationship with someone who was whole and unbroken, someone she didn't have to "fix" -- me. But I saw the person she really was, the beautiful, God-fearing soul she had deep down despite life's adversities, and that is who I fell in love with.

But all through the years of our relationship, W kept putting herself down, saying I married "damaged goods". I know she was partly fishing for complements from me, but also she was partly feeling some of her self-esteem angst. I spent a lot of time trying to convince her she was wrong, sometimes getting a bit upset with her for "trashing the woman I love".

And I have had to deal with her lack of trust problems too. She sometimes expressed disbelief that I could have really fallen in love with her, that she was too damaged and unworthy of being loved. She would frequently doubt my love was real, and I spent so much energy trying to convince her otherwise.

Oddly, as she gained experience in her career and then later as a mother, her confidence grew. Along with her arrogance. I thought she was past the esteem problems, but those never really went away. There just never was a healthy middle ground.

So now that W has suppressed the soul of the woman I married and appears to have lost her mind, I am beginning to think that I agree with her original premise. The point I am trying to make is that in my most recent conversations with W I find I am debating with myself to tell her this:

"You know, W, all these years you've been trying to tell me you were damaged goods, even arguing with me. But now I think you have finally convinced me."
Posted By: Dr LOve Re: King of Pain, 2 - 11/21/07 01:32 PM
Hey Nocode,

I think all of our spouses have a low self esteen problem. If they did not then why would they degrade themselves into this affair sitch.

The more I try to understand the more confused I get

Husband.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain, 2 - 11/23/07 04:27 AM
Hello, Husband, and everyone,

I hope everyone's TG day went well. I thought I'd log on this evening to reflect a bit about the last day. It was different, in an odd sort of way, but pleasant.

I picked up my 2 S's last night and brought them back to the apartment to eat dinner. We watched "Evan Almighty" (a cute movie, BTW. S's just love the animals and the slapstick comedic scenes.)

I tried contacting a friend of mine from my DivorceCare group; she had sent me a reply to a message I sent her earlier in the morning, which she had indicated that she would be spending the holiday without her two children and without her family. I did not actually see her reply until just before I left work, several hours later, and was alarmed and concerned.

I quickly fired off an email back to her telling her that if she was not spending TG with either family or friends, then to call me: she is welcome to have come over and share a TG meal and company with myself and my two S's -- no one should have to be alone on such a major holiday. I tried to call her phone number but there was no answer (wondering now if I had her number correct.)

This morning I got up at dawn -- the boys never, ever let me sleep in; they're early risers -- and after preparing them breakfast, I launched into starting the Thanksgiving meal. I also did a lot of house cleaning between tasks in the kitchen. All told, a very productive morning and at the same time I got to interact and visit with my kids.

I called my support group friend again, and got no reply. I prayed that I either misunderstood, or that she had already made arrangements with friends.

The TG meal I prepared was pretty darn good, if I don't say so myself. I had a boneless turkey breast, stuffing, gravy, green beans, cranberry compote, and an apple pie (S6's choice), but I got distracted at one point and burned the bottoms of the dinner rolls (they were just fine once I sliced that part off of each.)

My 2 S's ate okay, starting strong but dropping off quickly. They were likely still full from breakfast, and I was not so concerned they got very full at the midday meal since they were going to repeat this meal in the evening back in our house with W and the MIL. W was going to be working all day today and I invited her to stop by my place if she was in the area at the time and wanted to get a good lunch. I made the offer out of sincerity and concern, but I did not think she would take me up on it, and she did not.

And oddly enough, W had invited me over to eat TG meal with them in the evening, if I wanted. She offered again today, and I accepted. So, when I took our 2 S's back this evening, I stayed long enough to have a meal with them. MIL had prepared the meal, and had included a number of additional items I lacked in my own. It was good and the turkey was a little better than mine -- a bit more moist (a whole bird just cooks better.) And S's ate a little better too.

I thanked W and complemented and thanked MIL. I could tell MIL seemed to accept my presence with a bit of disdainful tolerance. She would have preferred I was not there, partaking of her hard work, that was obvious, but she was congenial. I was secretly chuckling to myself that MIL was probably upset with W for even making the invitation, but I decided I wasn't going to let that bother me.

As for my W, she also was congenial and friendly, but still standoffish and still trying to avoid physical contact. I am not entirely certain of her motivations. If I had to guess, W made the offer for the sake of our S's and so she could avoid any negative impressions be taken by our boys if their father was not there for this important occasion. It may also be just plain ole' guilt.

W was also probably annoyed that I would attempt my own meal in lieu of allowing her and her mother to have control over that venue for our 2 S's. If so, then tough -- this is what divorce looks like, baby.

In retrospect, putting out verbal invitations to my TG meal to both my W and my support group friend -- an attractive younger lady -- was probably not a very wise thing to do. I know, I know, this is dangerous waters. When folks like us are going through our situations, one has to be very careful with friends of the opposite gender. I know full well that I am no where near any point of starting a new relationship -- especially when I am still married to my W. Even if I were already D'ed, I know that I would still be years away from where a new relationship would be right and fair to the other person (one rule of thumb I heard was the average is one year for every four years married -- yikes!) So, this is (has to be) definitely a gesture of Christian agape-type friendship.

However, if the stars had aligned just so and my friend had indeed joined me and my S's for TG -- and then my W had decided to swing by for that lunch I offered... Hoooo, boy! W would not have seen anything but her H being an adulterous, backstabbing demon from hell -- and nothing on God's green earth would ever convince her that she had not already been guilty of the very same.
Posted By: LL44 Re: King of Pain, 2 - 11/24/07 02:31 AM
nocode, KUDOS to you for preparing a wonderful meal for your kids, interacting with them, and just plain loving them. And I am glad you accepted the invitation to W's and MIL's. You are right, MIL was probably miffed that you were there, but tough toodles. \:\)

PS: Someone else joked with me on here that when we put our profiles on match.com in the years to come, we'll say "Must be a LBS" and if the person reading it, doesn't know what it means, then they aren't for us. \:\)

Did you ever hear from your friend?
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain, 2 - 11/24/07 03:32 AM
Hello, Lwb, I hope your TG with your DD's was wonderful. Thanks for the words of encouragement.

I still haven't heard from my friend -- if I don't hear from her before, I will see her again Monday evening. In retrospect, I think maybe her H had custody of their children (two adorable little girls about the same ages as yours, lwb) for TG and was taking them to the IL's. I am hoping that this means she was able to go to her own family's for TG (I know her mother passed away from cancer about a year ago, right about the time she and her H separated. So maybe her father was holding festivities that she could attend. I'll find out whenever I do talk to her again.)

I've had a lot of family and friends (newfound and old) concerned for my own well-being during this holiday, including another person in this same support group. It has really touched me and given me a lot of hope in my fellow man, and I want to make sure that none of my friends are ever in such a situation either.
Posted By: LL44 Re: King of Pain, 2 - 11/24/07 03:38 AM
Quote:
It has really touched me and given me a lot of hope in my fellow man, and I want to make sure that none of my friends are ever in such a situation either.


Isn't it amazing (at least for me) how much our compassion/understanding has grown through this big ol' mess? I am much more observant of other people and want to help in any way I can. I look everywhere for signs of good people, trustworthy people.

I hope your friend was with her family.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain, 2 - 11/24/07 03:44 AM
Oh, I forgot to mention that I finally have an answer to what is going to happen on the weekend of our nephew's wedding. I asked W point blank, and she had decided not to go at all. She is taking the money she would have spent on airfare to fly down to Mississppi for this event and instead is giving it to our nephew as part of their nest egg.

So, the question is now just a mute point.
Posted By: Yoyowife Re: King of Pain, 2 - 11/24/07 03:49 AM
NC,
I hope your son enjoyed his B-day!
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain, 2 - 11/24/07 04:06 AM
Oh, hello, Yoyo! More (((hugs))) for you.

Yes, S2 (now S3), had a great day. I had to work, but after he had a celebration with his mother, I picked him up this evening and had another simpler birthday party in my partment. He's delightfully into dinosaurs now and I got him one of the Imaginext Mega T-Rex that is electronic and rares back and roars when you press its button. He was in heaven. I also got him a plush little triceratops toy to cuddle up with in bed -- another hit with Mr. dinosaur buddy.

Thanks for asking. I hope TAL's S had a good birthday too.
Posted By: Yoyowife Re: King of Pain, 2 - 11/24/07 04:08 AM
Awww...little ones are so sweet at that age. I bet his eyes got huge when he opened the present.
Posted By: LL44 Re: King of Pain, 2 - 11/25/07 02:43 PM
Hello Mr. S3, what a big boy. Glad it was a nice day for him (and you, to watch him enjoy it)
Posted By: fightingirish Re: King of Pain, 2 - 11/25/07 04:01 PM
thanks no codes.. yes he had a great day.. This boy loves cars anything to do with them so that's what he got!

Glad to hear all went well!!

tal
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain, 2 - 11/26/07 04:18 PM
Thanks, all,

Yes, all in all, a not too bad holiday weekend.

The only negative is that I keep having these email exchanges with W. She continues to throw these zingers out at me occasionally that I am impelled to address -- and undoubtedly not in the best way because I cannot figure out the least damaging response.

For example W quoted something I said and took it completely out of context. Originally, about two weeks ago she had said something about wanting to know why, as she put it, she has been so "unappealing" to me since S3 was born. I reponded to her by saying that she has never been "unappealing" to me -- and it was quite the contrary, I added.

Well, the other day she said something that just makes me nuts, "I honestly don't detect a great desire on your part to have anything to do with me still. In one of your e-mails you said 'you are not unappealing' Wow. That really blows me away..."

I tried to rebut this, but she has continued to misconstrue what I have actually said -- and even what she herself has actually said.

So, W just reads what she wants into any conversation she has with me. It doesn't matter what I say, or how I say it. She's firmly embracing the fog and filters out any real message I might convey to her. W has thanked me for continuing to try to "communicate" with her, but I think she's only thankful that I am giving her fodder to justify her walking away.

I have had to restate for her, for the record, how I feel -- that I still want her very much, that I did not want this separation and I do not want a D. But I also added that I don't want this M either given the way it has devolved.

I think part of her just wants me to give up, so as to prove her assertions about me are true. If she can break me, then she can have what she wants unconditionally and without remorse.

I know I am not supposed to read anything into her words or her actions. But I really am thinking that she is trying to get me to throw the towel in. She wants me to want the D by the time we get to the end of this year of separation. She wants to hold out until one of us can legally file -- and she would like me to be party to it. Then she can get her precious D and be free to pursue OM with all the self-righteousness she thinks she deserves. And while I think she no longer has the moral fiber to truly hold out on OM physically, it would not surprise me if she thinks she's "saving herself" for him. I sense a particular pathology in her that is all too familiar, unfortunately.

The sad thing is she would actually try to convince herself that God would approve of destroying her M to me to be able to remarry another.
Posted By: AKmusic Re: King of Pain, 2 - 11/26/07 05:32 PM
Andy,
I couldn't agree with you more. When you take the emotional part of making a decision logic sets in. This is what happened in the dealings with my ex wife. Logically, if you can get their attention long enough you can make them see things for what they are. Stay away from lawyers for as long as you can, these people make their living of praying on peoples misery. Going dark puts you in the logic realm. In my situation I feel like I am slowly starting to build a bridge back for my wife, she was a WAW. I had an affair, 3 years ago we reconciled and then all of a sudden she just said she couldn't deal with it. She said she wanted a divorce and then she would be able to heal. There were alot of hurtful things that were said in that time, including her having affairs with several married men. And now that she got what she wanted she is not happy at all. I am in another relationship which is going really well, my gf treats my son as if her were her own. My wife admitted that it is bothering her, inside she is still really nice but she broke down in tears when she told me how she felt. The fact that she cried still shows me that she cares, the opposite of love is indifference. She still cares what happens to me. In a way she is almost mad at me that I went dark, but it was the only way for me. Trying to win her back the other way just made me push her farther away in the very beginning. Now that the fog has lifted she is seeing things for what they are. I think she feels she may have made a mistake, and only time will tell what will be the outcome, but I would have never reached this stage if I had not gone dark.
Posted By: theforlornhope Re: King of Pain, 2 - 11/26/07 07:11 PM
NCB, I'm glad she wouldn't say something like that to him. I know what you mean about the sponge, my S6 is exactly the same way.


Quote:
W quoted something I said and took it completely out of context.



Quote:
So, W just reads what she wants into any conversation she has with me.


Quote:
She wants me to want the D by the time we get to the end of this year of separation.


Quote:
Then she can get her precious D and be free to pursue OM with all the self-righteousness she thinks she deserves.


I think your wife has a copy of the fabled MLC manual. Mine has hit all of those marks. The miscommunication / revision drives me straight up the wall too. My STBXW is having an EA, but does not consider that an affair because she hasn't slept with him. So after the divorce, she can carry on with this without guilt. WTF? are they kidding?

Hang tough man, you are doing a good job of not letting her push your buttons.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain, 2 - 11/27/07 05:58 PM
Thanks, AK,

DB/DR advises us to just acknowledge and go along with the WAS whenever they talk about the R. And that often means enduring a lot of emotional nonsense from them. Logic has nothing to do with their thinking, because all they want is to be validated in their wants and desires.

(BTW, my name is not Andy -- somewhere along in this thread I think someone began to confuse my posts with those from andyv. No biggie. You can call me Bill.)
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain, 2 - 11/27/07 06:11 PM
Thanks, forlorn, I am trying. And that's all we can do.

That MLC manual is a killer. If it's not actually a book, then these WAS's must be channeling these thoughts in from some common negative dimension. No wonder it seems eerily like some Hollywood Sci-Fi B-movie, "Invasion of the Alien Mind-Benders."

But she is still managing to push my buttons -- the difference is that I have grown to the point where they just don't illicit the same response from me anymore. That's the real beauty to detachment.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain, 2 - 11/28/07 02:47 AM
Please, somebody, shoot me! Put me out of my misery...

I keep finding myself in these R talks with W. And all she seems to allow is for me to be the bad guy in our situation. She refuses to see any other way, or accept any of her share in this disaster. And without that, not only will she never truly heal, but it means that even basic reconciliation -- something our sons desperately need for the two of us to be able to properly parent them, whether together or apart -- will be next to impossible.

She really acts like she wants to keep these lines of communication open, strained as they are, but if we get even a hair's breadth close to anything other than me being the villain, she wants to back off while castigating me for all my past wrongs. And the old Catch-22 is that if she wants to talk and I back off, she assigns the old blame of failure to communicate on my head.

Tonight, in response, short of my Last Ultimatum, I have still lobbed the ball back in her court. I asked her point blank to tell me everything she thinks of our situation, what is her "big picture", what are her ideas and plans, what does she want out of life, how do our sons fit into all of this, etc.

It's an opening line of questioning to take us back to the basics, the fundamentals of who she is and who we are and what she sees ahead for us. I may not like the answers even if she happens to be totally candid, but either way, even if she just continues the snow job, I will glean a little of where she really is.

It sure as heck beats being suckered in only to then be crucified by her.
Posted By: LL44 Re: King of Pain, 2 - 11/28/07 02:53 AM
Quote:
I keep finding myself in these R talks with W. And all she seems to allow is for me to be the bad guy in our situation. She refuses to see any other way, or accept any of her share in this disaster. And without that, not only will she never truly heal, but it means that even basic reconciliation -- something our sons desperately need for the two of us to be able to properly parent them, whether together or apart -- will be next to impossible.


Wow. I feel this same way. I actually asked my H the other day "We always find time to discuss my faults and all I have done wrong in the marriage. When will we ever find time to talk about what YOU have done......"

And yes, unless they also wake up, and take some blame, nothing can move forward, it will always be our fault.

Quote:
I may not like the answers even if she happens to be totally candid, but either way, even if she just continues the snow job, I will glean a little of where she really is.


This might be good. Give her an open floor to talk about everything, maybe it will open her OWN eyes a bit.

I feel for you.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain, 2 - 11/28/07 03:20 AM
Originally Posted By: lwb
"We always find time to discuss my faults and all I have done wrong in the marriage. When will we ever find time to talk about what YOU have done......"


Exactly, Lwb.

I am just growing so weary of this blame the LBS game. We have barely even touched on the A -- heck, she no longer so much as even acknowledges the d*mn A! -- and I'm still prepared to let it all go if she would show even the least bit of contrition and a willingness to honestly discuss how to move forward, even if we were decide ultimately to end our marriage. But now, I don't know what to do or where to go or how to proceed other than me continuing to stay in limbo and endure being her emotional pinata.

I guess I am not as detached as I would like.
Posted By: LL44 Re: King of Pain, 2 - 11/28/07 03:30 AM
Are you in my head man? \:\)

Quote:
We have barely even touched on the A -- heck, she no longer so much as even acknowledges the d*mn A!


H absolutely refuses to talk about the A anymore. Either 1) he thinks I'll use it against him or 2) he honestly doesn't see the damage its doing...

Quote:
and I'm still prepared to let it all go if she would show even the least bit of contrition


Yes, yes, and more yes!!!!! I honestly almost fell out of my chair last week when he said "I realized I am blaming you for everything, to make it easier on me. That isn't right." That's as close to an apology as I have gotten. However, the next topic of conversation was...can you guess...how much I have failed him and how he doesn't think I'll ever change....

Quote:
I guess I am not as detached as I would like.


Me either, my friend.
Posted By: Dr LOve Re: King of Pain, 2 - 11/28/07 03:44 AM
nocode & LWB

"I guess I am not as detached as I would like"
Do we really EVER get to this? Yes we can supress our felling but I don't think (even aftera D) we can detach compleatly

H
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain, 2 - 11/28/07 05:07 AM
Originally Posted By: lwb
Are you in my head man? \:\)


Lwb, that would be nice. Is your head more comfortable than mine is right now?

<must... resist... husband-style... double-entendre... innuendo... >



Originally Posted By: lwb
I honestly almost fell out of my chair last week when he said "I realized I am blaming you for everything, to make it easier on me. That isn't right." That's as close to an apology as I have gotten.


Wow! That is incredible. That your H could get so close, ...and then dash it all away. If our spouses could just get to that very point in their psyche and let it stick...
Posted By: LL44 Re: King of Pain, 2 - 11/28/07 05:09 AM
Quote:
<must... resist... husband-style... double-entendre... innuendo... >


lmfao!

And you are right, him saying that little line to me about blaming me really means nothing, since he still fully believes all I have done is what got us here.

Oh well, at least I have this place to make me smile and feel less alone, that's for sure......
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain, 2 - 11/28/07 05:17 AM
Originally Posted By: husband
Do we really EVER get to this? Yes we can supress our felling but I don't think (even aftera D) we can detach compleatly


Probably not, Husband.

Don't get me wrong, folks, I love my children beyond life itself, but I feel that detachment would be so much easier to do if my W and I had not been blessed with them. In fact, if we had no kids, then I really feel it would have been too easy to detach -- I would have been gone by now. But I'll never know for sure, because that just is not the situation. It's a mute point.

So I endure this for my two S's. I do this because of my love and my obligations to them and the family we started with God's blessings. Come what may, be it divorce or reconciliation, I will be there for them as their father, making the best of what the circumstances may be.
Posted By: LL44 Re: King of Pain, 2 - 11/28/07 05:22 AM
Again with the head thing.......

Quote:
In fact, if we had no kids, then I really feel it would have been too easy to detach -- I would have been gone by now.


I think this too. I feel I would at least be in full blown separation/no contact with H if we didn't have kids. They are a blessing though, and I suppose they cause us to pause, take a breath, take our time with choices, and give it our all.
Posted By: theforlornhope Re: King of Pain, 2 - 11/28/07 05:31 AM
Quote:
heck, she no longer so much as even acknowledges the d*mn A!


A year after my wife told me this...

"I don't love you anymore, I am in love with #### at work," She accused me of throwing it in her face and denied having said it AT ALL!

Ummmm... this is like the fable where the kid and his dad see a salamander in the fire and the dad unexpectedly knocks the heck out of the kid. Just so he will remember the salamander.

You don't forget it because it is just about the most painful thing that can happen to you.

You can probably even remember the clothes worn, the lighting, the time of day.

Revisionist history seems to be a hallmark of the MLC WAW spouse. Just like "I never loved you."

They can't admit it because like LWB said, it could be used against them. Somehow they can revise in their heads what really happened to reflect what they want.

It's kind of scary really.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain, 2 - 11/28/07 05:39 AM
Lwb,

My W and I tried for nearly ten years in our M before we had our first child, so having them now means so very much to me and W, words fail me. We appreciate them so much, given how slim our chances were. And now I know that the Lord allowed them into our lives for a purpose.

So I take this gift and responsibility with gratitude and duty. If nothing else I honor my obligations, and love makes it both possible and worthwhile.
Posted By: Yoyowife Re: King of Pain, 2 - 11/28/07 05:43 AM
NC,
Children are such a blessing. You would think with the difficulty you and W had conceiving they would be that much more special that she would do anything to protect them.

I don't mean to say that those of us that had chilren easily love our children less, sometimes when things come difficult to us we appreciate the gift even more. I know what I'm trying to say, but can't get it out. We all love our children no matter what.
Posted By: LL44 Re: King of Pain, 2 - 11/28/07 05:46 AM
I agree, I am so blessed to have my kids. The one thing during all this mess is that I have grown even more appeciative of them.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain, 2 - 11/28/07 05:54 AM
Yoyo,

My W is so lost in the fog that she has projected her own angst and hurt onto our children, saying she can never live with me again for the harm it brought to our 2 S's. She rationalizes her breakup of our family as being less for her own selfish interests but for the sake of S6 and S3.

No, I don't buy that load of manure.
Posted By: Yoyowife Re: King of Pain, 2 - 11/28/07 05:56 AM
That is a freight train full of manure!
© DivorceBusting.com