Divorcebusting.com
Posted By: NoCodeBlues King of Pain - 09/05/07 03:16 PM
<Warning: This is a very long introduction to my situation.>

I had the bomb dropped on me in June by my W of now 16 years. We have two young children: S6 and S2. I can't begin to adequately describe the living hell I've been through in the last three months, but those of you who've been through this know all too well.

My W is a classic WAW suffering a MLC. And my withdrawal from life is what triggered it. There are a lot of things that have contributed to the difficulties we've had in our marriage:

(1) Off and on for the last five years I have been suffering bouts of depression. Almost entirely due to my high-stress dead-end, high tech job that I hate but have been clinging to since after 9-11. The pay is pitiful, the benefits very good, but the work environment is a real sweat-shop. Long hours, 24 by 7, overbearing and demanding management structure -- and an increasing lack of sympathy from my spouse. W's attitude is that I should be happy with any job I have, just so long as I can provide for my family. And I am grateful to have work, I just realize the cost in time and attention away from my family has been too heavy and we've suffered greatly. The problem is that I am by nature a workaholic, and my employer regularly abuses that. The cost to my family and my marriage and my soul has been far too great.

All of the following points have been significant contributing factors to my depression.

(2) My W claims to be very content with her career as a nurse, and she just cannot understand why I too cannot be happy. She has not been too sympathetic to my plight and the depression that has resulted. This leads into the second contributing factor In the dynamics between us: being a nurse, she is an excessive control freak. Actually, I believe it is this mania to control others' lives and behaviors that has led her into nursing in the first place.

(3) We tried to work a split-shift as parents, with me working weekdays, her working weekends, so we could avoid daycare costs and maximize the time our children would have with their parents. We had been warned about the shift-change parental schedule -- two ships passing in the night -- but we thought we could handle it (admittedly that proved foolhardy. We have never had enough quality time with each other since we started this schedule and that hurt our relationship more than we realized.

(4) We have had struggles with finances. Ever since I took this current position with this demanding employer, my salary has been 20K shy of what we had budgeted prior to my lay off (following 9-11 and the dot-Com bust). With W only working weekends, her contribution has been significantly reduced as well. It certainly hasn't helped that we've encountered some financial setbacks, expenses that we had not planned upon, as well as our own unwise spending habits (mine especially) not getting under control.

(5) In 2003, S6 was diagnosed with Sensory-Integration Dysfunction (SID) and Asperger's Syndrome (AS). We have been facing a difficult struggle in helping S6 cope with his psychological/physiological conditions.

(6) We have had disagreements on the raising of our sons. We had long ago decided we were going to homeschool our children, as the best solution to ensure that our sons would have a quality education and upbringing. But suddenly, about the time S6 was diagnosed with AS, W decided we were no longer going to homeschool and that we were going to put our S's in Public School, saying it would be ''good enough''. With the increasing demands of my job meaning I could contribute less to the daily education time for our kids, I did not have much of an argument. But I have been sorely disappointed since half the reason we wanted to work our split-shift schedule as parents in the first place was to help facilitate homeschooling.

(7) Our sex life and intimacy has increasingly suffered because of all these factors. After the birth of S2, we had been prohibited from LM, first for her recovery, then for the necessity of birth control until I could get a vasectomy. Then we had increasing friction because of the (long denied but very evident) pain W felt during intercourse due to excessive tears and damage to her v following the births of S6 and then S2. Finally, as my depression worsened, she began to complain about my lack of attentiveness in bed, which always had to be by her schedule (she's a bad control freak, remember.) When I had the time and initiated, she was not ready. When she was ready, I was not. Her biggest pet peeve is that she absolutely hates initiating, and in her mind she felt I was always leaving that to her. This went on for months and months until this year when our love life became pretty abysmal. It has been so subtle and gradual that only now can I see what happened to us. So, yes, we're talking about a classic sex-starved marriage.

(8) At the insistence of W, I saw our doctor about antidepressants. I started on Prozac, first a light dose, then a slightly heavier one. In retrospect, I should have also sought out counseling for the depression and not just medication, but I didn't know any better. And then our LM began to suffer even more. I now suspect the antidepressants because eventually even on those rare occasions when we had the time, I felt less enthused or just couldn't fight the inertia to actually begin. And I love LM with my W, so you'd think I'd have gotten a clue. But I was in a real depressive fog.

(9) I have sleep problems which exacerbate and complicate all these other problems. I am being treated for Sleep Apnea and sleep depravation -- and I still never full truly rested no matter how much sleep time I actually get.

(10) W began to show less and less respect for me, and I began to withdraw more and more under the verbal and psychological bludgeoning. It stemmed primarily from her sexual dissatisfaction, but manifested Itself In constant criticism of everything I did or did not do. My depression increased more and more with the lack of appreciation and consideration and I withdrew more and more from life. She began to make demands of my time and to set up tests of my love for her, to see whether I would take the time to carry out her requests. And even when I was successful in one thing, she found fault with me elsewhere in something else. So when as a result I began to withdraw even further, our intimacy was even more in jeopardy.

(11) About a year ago, my W got this idea in her head to bring the MIL into our home to be our built-in daycare -- so W could work more during the week, and ease our financial situation. She claims it was her M's idea, not hers, but either way she agreed to it without consulting with me first. The MIL, to put it briefly, is not the grandmotherly type by any stretch of the imagination. She abandoned her first H and my W and her S to go after H #2. She abandoned H#2 to pursue H#3. And she has pretty much ignored all of her grandchildren (GC), including when she lived but a couple minutes away from my SIL and her 3 children. Furthermore, having failed in three prior marriages, she is all too accepting of divorce as a ''solution'' to marital problems. She displays a disdain for the sanctity of marriage, for all things male, and an unrepentant arrogance in trying to justify the mistakes she's made in her life and the damage it has done to those around her. I had taken pity on her in the past (and still do to a degree), but I did not (and still do not) want her raising my sons. In retrospect, allowing my W to bring MIL into my home was the stupidest thing I have ever done in this 16-year marriage.

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My M began to unravel some time in February of this year, when my W finally scheduled her long needed surgery to have her v repaired, after two years of suffering the difficulties it had presented to her and to our LM. The big problem for me was that since October of the previous year, I had been working nonstop on project after project. I was absolutely exhausted and February was definitely not a good time for me. Furthermore she announced she was going to go ahead and have the big H done as well (since ovarian cancer tends to run in her family). So we planned for me to schedule a week of vacation time to be there before, during and after my W's surgery, to help take care of her. Despite some reservations in my mind about the timing of this operation, I was truly glad to be there for her, and loved her enough to sacrifice a bit more to do so, but at the same time I was so emotionally drained and exhausted -- the depression was setting in very thick. We had just lost a key person in our department in January, crippling us, and adding further strain on our already tapped out team. My W tried to reassure me that with her M there, I wouldn't have to worry so much about the kids (Ha!).

Then the week before my W's surgery, another person in our group decided to leave; suddenly everything started to come unglued. I tried desperately to help out my colleagues at the office while attempting to take care of my W, during my so-called ''vacation''.

Her surgery went well from what the doctors and staff told me. And they tried to warn me about some of the mood and hormonal changes that might ensue following the H. I only found out later why the operation had taken an hour longer than usual. I was not made aware that the ''slight excessive bleeding'' they had been working to mend was far more serious. I was led to believe that it was only minor and that all had gone well, and so I was visibly relieved for my W when i finally saw her. I guess I came off as too cheerful or unconcerned, because when my wife got wind later of how many units of blood they had to use on her, it really scared her (she never told me this until after the bomb, so I was oblivious.) And then for me to seem so flippant (partly for the sake of the kids and partly out of ignorance of how serious it was) my wife began to doubt I even cared, assuming I knew what had happened. If she had not told me in June I would likely never have known.

So she harbored this going into her days of recovery in our home. That week of time became more of a nightmare for me than W will ever recognize. I knew she was in pain and suffering during the healing process, and I was doing everything in my power to take care of the kids and the house, all the while exhausted and drained -- as well as seeing to her needs as best I could. And then in the evenings, after everyone was in bed, and until the early AM hours, I had to work on projects for my office to keep the ship afloat. To top that off there were several knock-down-dragouts between W and MIL that called for me to try to step in and help calm things down before they got out of hand. I had never in my life seen W like this before, she was on the most irrational emotional rollercoaster I could ever imagine. Several times I found myself trying to keep a lid on some raging argument between MIL and my W over long ago deep-seated resentments now bubbling up, arguments waged very late into the evening. I felt compelled to help arbitrate and sooth the frayed nerves of these two so they could settle down and ultimately send them off to their respective beds so I could get some relative peace and quiet and then continue working even later into the night to keep up with the demands of work.

What I didn't realize at the time, since I attributed all these pent up emotions being spewed forth from my W to the hormonal adjustments that I had been warned she would undergo following the H, was that the arguments with her M were just surrogate emotions for the disappointment she was feeling for me, her H. In her mind, I was not performing a very good job in supporting her, either in the postoperative care she needed, nor in the TLC she thought she wasn't getting, nor in taking her side against her M. I was trying to stay neutral and out of these arguments, but my W didn't see it that way. Hindsight is 20-20, but I couldn't see the monumental trial I was being put through -- at the same time I was at my absolute worst ever by this time -- sleep-deprived, totally exhausted, emotionally and spiritually drained.

The breaking point for my wife came one evening during the week of her recovery. It had already been a very long day, tending to the S's, to the household, to the spats between W and MIL, and a crisis at work (again) had to be tended until late that night. I don't really recall all of the details, as I must have tried to block it out of my mind, but my wife recounted her point of view on that night to me later (after the bomb). All I recall is her coming downstairs after she was supposed to be off to sleep, and while I am trying to concentrate on a time-critical matter for work (using my laptop connected remotely) she begins to complain and make obtuse demands of me. If I had half the brains and clear-headedness I do now, I would have realized she was actually crying out for help. But I was so spiritually empty and depressed and so very tired, all I could hear were the angry upset words and the crying of someone who was emotionally unstable. All I could see was someone trying to push my buttons to get me to respond to her at a particular time I just had no more left to give -- my batteries were depleted. She just wanted her husband to comfort her in her time of greatest need, and I was too far drained to really help. If I had simply gotten up out of my addle-brained stupor and went over to her and held her for just five seconds, I would likely not be writing these words to you right now. Instead, the lesser side of me got angry (the only emotion that takes no real energy) and dug in, refusing to budge another inch -- I couldn't find that last erg of energy to be the better person, and a proper husband. She claims I coldly told her she needed psychological help. All I remember is she went back up to bed sobbing.

She tells me that marked the end for her. She made up her mind in the heat of that very moment that it was all over for her and that I, in her mind, did not really love her.

The intervening months since that event proved a steady decline in our relationship. I became more and more depressed, and she became more and colder towards me. She tried a few half-hearted attempts occasionally to try to get me to snap out of these black moods, but all her actions did were to make me even more depressed. She complained less and less however, and for some odd reason she began to get along better with MIL. (I had assumed maybe W had finally adjusted to the hormonal changes following the surgery.)

I should have seen the telltale signs of her MLC. She was spending an inordinate amount of time online late at night, mostly researching old schoolmates for her class reunion (held this August). Just the amount of time she spent alone late at night on the computer should have told me how far afield she was drifting, but I have always (until now) given her the benefit of any doubt.

I took a management position in the company in March in hopes of aiding our finances more. It has meant I work the roles of four people, but I was already doing that unofficially anyway, so why not get paid for it, right? W welcomed the extra pay, but was fairly cold about the further impact on our family. It almost seemed like she really didn't care one way or the other anymore (and she didn't by this time.)

And we still were having a difficult sex life. I was definitely in trouble here; I was so depressed and sleep-deprived I rarely could make the effort. To compound the problem she began nagging me (once she was cleared by her doctor for intercourse) saying she needed me to help her maintain her ''muscle tone'' (if you know what I mean.) The coldness and complaints only further eroded my libido. W hates being the one to initiate, so if I don't, it won't happen. W was definitely sex-starved (so was I, but I just couldn't recognize it.)

Fast forward to June of this year. I wasn't happy and I knew the wife hadn't really been happy either, but I was foolishly attributing the stand off to just a temporary rough spot in the marriage. The back part of my mind that a vacation at the end of June, first week of July, during our anniversary would be the opportune time to refocus on ourselves and our marriage. And this was even despite an increasingly persistent depression making my mood darker and darker. Our LL was so sad, and I was feeling ever more lonely, and I just couldn't see it. The thought of our upcoming anniversary had been a little glimmer of light in this long, dark tunnel.

On Thursday, June 14, the night before my W was to take the kids to see family in a small town a couple hours east of here (a small reunion on her M's side of the family), I was In a depressive state again. I couldn't go with them because of work and she said I could meet them there on Saturday, but she said I probably didn't really need to go. She then had this very odd conversation with me. She began to say that she had come to realize that I was not happy anymore and there was nothing she could do to ''fix'' me. She felt that maybe I would be happier if she took the kids and moved out -- then I could start my own business or some other career and be happy. This alarmed me more than anything in my life, and made me angry and upset. I told her that I had become too dependent on relying on what I do for a living to define who I am as a person. It was the lack of appreciation for all the effort I put into making a home and a life for them that depressed me the most. I told her the whole reason I work so hard and to have a career was to support my family, and without her and the kids none of that meant anything to me. She ignored me and persisted in saying that I was too often angry with her, the kids and even the whole world. And obviously I wasn't happy with my family. I got more upset and told her she was wrong and that I would try to work on this, that we could work on this together. I thought we left it at that, an agreement that we would abandon such notions and work on our marriage and family together. In reality, I realize now she was just placating me to buy herself some more time.

The sleeper was about to waken.

The next night, while the W was out of town with the S's, I came across an odd email from W's coworker. It was there right on the screen where she left it before heading out of town that morning while I was at work. I read it and a coldness began to creep up my spine. A wheel clicked in my addled mind, and I recalled the odd conversation from the night before. I then looked up another message from the same sender, and sure enough, it contained even more disturbing information. Before long I had spent most of the evening using every forensic technique I knew to retrieve as much current and deleted data from her email as could be garnered. By then I had a pretty ugly picture of what was going on, and my world has never been the same since. She was seeing someone else, a coworker.

I called her on the phone late that night, sobbing, and started by saying I thought we agreed to work on this together. ''No!'' she told me. This is where she delivered the ILYBNILWY line we've all come to despise. She told me that she was leaving, taking the kids and her M to live in an apartment. We were going to separate, filing a legal separation, and then in a year, after satisfying the legal requirements of this state she was going to divorce me.

Thus ensued probably the least shining moment of my entire life, especially in her eyes. Into the wee hours of Friday night and Saturday morning, the cellphone calls between us continued in heated argument. I said a lot of foolish things that only further antagonized her and further solidified her resolve, if it wasn't already, into leaving me. I told her she was not going to take our S's out of their home, the only one they have ever known in all their short lives. I told her if she leaves, she was not taking them with her. I told her I was not going to give her a divorce (to which she snorted in contempt). I begged, I pleaded, I tried to rationalize with her. I got angry, I got sad. Of course, this was all well before I knew about DB and DR.

I prayed to God that night to help me through this nightmare. I know I have screwed up badly -- I had hurt my wife and family by not seeking serious help for my depression. I swore a vow to Him that never again would I allow myself to neglect my wife and family or allow my depression to rule over my life. I would do what it would take to see that through and to turn over a new leaf.

Later on Saturday, I called my mother to break the news to her. I had no one else to talk to, as all my family lived in other states. Of course I neglected to tell my mother to keep the lid on what I told her because she then promptly called my brother's W and then my brother's W called my W's sister and then it got back to the W -- and the ''s'' hit the fan at that point. W called me and began berating me for opening up to my mom and telling the world.

My SIL (B's W) later reported to me that when she called my W, whom she considered to be a good friend, to inquire what I might have done to cause her to want to leave me, SIL distinctly heard someone in the background shout to my W (W's Aunt or her MIL, no doubt) that W didn't ''have to talk to her anymore'', because ''she is no longer family!'' (referring to my brother's W)

They (W, MIL and 2 S) came back very late Saturday evening, and we had to carry each of our S up to bed. I then apologized for scaring her about me taking the kids away. I said I was going to change and would be a good and proper father, husband and person. I told her I had vowed this to God. She then and now keeps using the same refrain over and over, ''It's too little too late!'' She also will get angry very easily and say she has tried over and over to get through to me in the past, so ''Why NOW?!!'' and again followed by ''It's too late!''

She also keeps telling me that nothing I say to her will ever change her mind. Only my actions will say anything to her about whether I can still be a father to our S, but the marriage is over for her.

The next day was Father's Day. I got a wonderful card from each of my S's, but the W was plainly not going to give one to me from herself. Obviously I had forfeited my fatherhood in her eyes. We went to church together and she was so distant and cold, the wife I knew was obviously possessed by the ''aliens''. In Church I wept and prayed again to God to change me and help make me a better person.

Afterwards that day she told me more of how she came to her decision, and that, yes, she and her co-worker had been talking to each other. This OM, who W has known for nearly 10 years, was at the same time having his own marital difficulties. And when they recently began to console each other over their griefs they discovered they did indeed have ''a possible future together''. I am inclined to believe her, given her (otherwise) Christian morals, that it had so far only been an EA, but that alone is bad enough in my book. There has since been no other admission of her guilt. She continues to think she has not yet done anything wrong or sinful (although their emails belie the fact that they have indeed passionately touched. I haven't brought this information before her yet, BTW.) And she claims that he and she are still just the ''closest of friends'' (I am supposed to be her closest friend! Grrrrr.) She said that she and he had decided that if either of them could work on and save their own marriages, that they should do so.

But despite that, W told me that she could no longer trust me to make her happy anymore. That a husband should want to ML to his wife at any time no matter what, and that there must be something wrong with me. I cried and told her I loved her dearly but was severely depressed and that was the root cause for all these ills. I haven't been happy in my job, and pursuing this rat-race; that our house in this affluent neighborhood was proving far more expensive than it's benefit, that I wanted to take our S's out of this environment and give then a simpler, more wholesome life, where we could be a real family with more modest expectations, and practice Christian values. She told me she had already asked me about moving out to the country, but I had callously shot that down because of my ''career'' (I don't quite recall that particular conversation, to be honest.)

I told her I wanted to find a MC to help us through this; and I would seek therapy for my depression. Again, she kept saying it was too late, like it was some mantra.

I asked her about our upcoming anniversary and the vacation to see our family we had planned for that time. She said that she had originally planned to proceed with the long overdue vacation (to see her sister and my M) and that when we returned from this out-of-state trip she and her M had planned to quietly pack up their things, take the kids and move into an apartment together --with no forewarning given to me; I would have just come home that day from work to discover the house was empty. She never expected that I would have ever contest or protest her leaving, nor of her taking the kids with her -- she thought I wouldn't really care and just ignore them, or something along those lines. When I didn't just simply roll over as expected that surprised and confused her. I see how this has also been a constant source of anger for her. Her hateful reaction to my awakening is extremely shocking coming from her. Given that I have now awakened, she claimed she might be willing to go to counseling with me, but she seriously doubted it would change anything for her.

I am continually, to this day, since the bomb, shocked at the change in my wife's demeanor. It is chilling how angry she gets now. She must have been bottling up this anger all these months and now that she doesn't have to pretend anymore and doesn't have to try to convince me everything is normal, she can let loose with as much venom as she feels like. Part of her anger has been that it took her trying to leave me to wake me up, and none of her purported other efforts (I really do not recall much from her in that regard, except for a lot of more-of-the-same complaining) before she made her ''final decision'', had any such success.

I gave W an analogy, one that a nurse like her might understand. This experience has been like I had been a patient in a severe coma on life support all this time. And she had decided the best thing for her and the family was for her to pull my feeding tube. Only I did not die as she had expected; instead I not only lived but I actually started to come to and began to recover. And now that I am conscious again -- the sleeper has awoken -- my W, instead of being overjoyed that her H has returned to the land of the living, has become angry and resentful. She had declared me a ''no-code'', and she had wanted to keep it that way. But I was just not behaving according to her plans.

Her coldness and hostile hatred is so palpable, I just don't recognize this person she has suddenly become. How can a woman who so professes to love God, and to follow in the light of Jesus Christ as our savior, be so forgiving and tolerant of everyone else, including perfect strangers and even her reckless mother (who had abandoned her and her sister at such a tender age in W's life), suddenly have so much intolerant, unforgiveness and hatred of her own H?


In subsequent days I got a referral for a Christian MC from a friend and scheduled an appointment for July 8. I told my wife his fees and thought they were extremely reasonable ($25 for each of the first five, $65 per hour thereafter) since they were being subsidized by the Christian church to which he was affiliated, but W suddenly began to balk at the rates as being too expensive! I thought not only was she nuts, but here was the first real indication to me that she was not being sincere in trying to work this out.

Now that the cat was out of the bag, W did not pull any punches with me. She turned the coldest and nastiest I have ever seen. It is like she is trying to convince me to give up this battle I am only now consciously engaging in. Part of it was being under the same roof with me -- and being in the same bed with me was too much for her. I never realized quite how overly large a King-sized bed can be when one of you is sleeping as close to the edge as possible. She refused my touch or my closeness. She began drafting up Separation Agreements (SA) using online legal sites, and every draft was heavily slanted in favor of her getting the divorce and no chance for allowing reconciliation. I have refused to sign.

Eventually she announced she and her M were carrying out their plans to move out. At first she claimed it was to save me from the ugly behavior of the MIL, then it was for the primary purpose of giving her space away from me. I protested, but she was adamant. I told her I couldn't believe she would do this to S6 and S2, to take them out of their own home just because W had problems with me. She said we both needed time apart from each other and this was the only way. I would still get the boys on the weekend. I could stay in the house, refinance it to be able to pay off our debts, and then after a year we could sell the house and split the assets. I told her if the finances were what were bugging her then trying to maintain two separate households was only going to add further burden to that. She said the peace of mind for her was worth it. Her mind was made up, the lease was signed -- they were leaving July 10.

I asked her again about the trip to see the extended family, and she said we could still go, although that might have meant taking separate vehicles. I rolled my eyes at the expense and she relented, we'd drive there together but stay separately.

So in the end the original plan for her and her M to take the S's and move out after the trip was still in play -- nothing had really changed except I was now conscious of it before hand. I was again in shock, the roller-coaster was still speeding along at full force. I was so upset that she was so horribly angry and hateful of me that she would actually harm our two S by taking them out of their home. I kept (keep) saying to myself how utterly wrong that was (is), how selfish and unfair to them. They don't deserve this at all.

The week before the trip I was saying to myself, ''She can't do this! This is wrong! I can't let her take S6 and S2 out of their home!'' I then thought maybe I should be the one to leave, to give W her space if she was so dead set on it, and save our S from being uprooted. My only reservation, aside from a possible legal weakening of my claim to joint property, was how it might look to my S's, for their F to be the one to leave. I didn't know how they might take it and assume it was by my own choice that I leave, which it most certainly was not.

I later talked to my brother (a good father with three wonderful children of his own), and he also said to me what had been going through my mind already, ''Don't (let her) take those kids out of their home!''

Resolved, I then went to my wife and told her to cancel her lease, and I would be the one to move out. At first she thought I was playing some dirty trick to get her to back out of her signed lease and lose her deposits, that I would really not make good on my offer to leave. I replied, ''To what end? If I did that you wouldn't trust me anymore after that and it would undermine any hopes I had for reconciliation. So what would it really gain me since you are so insistent on separating anyway?''

At first she seemed shocked that I would do something so selfless. But after I continued to explained to her it would actually be more sound financially since I would not need as large an apartment for just myself (and the two S on the weekends), and the expense would be considerably less, she became convinced. Potentially the difference in one month's rent alone between a 1-2 bedroom apartment and a 3 bedroom apartment would offset the deposits and fees W stood to loose in canceling the lease right before it started. Primarily, I told her, if the separation had to be, this way was best for our S's.

So very reluctantly, I continued with preparations to move myself out following our family trip at the end of the month of June (i.e., the first week in July). But even though this was against my wishes, I realized that for the first time since the bomb was dropped I had gained back a little measure of control of my destiny (or maybe it was just the illusion of control, I don't know.)

We then went on the trip out-of-state together with our kids. I stayed with my B and his W and their family in my mother's home, while my W stayed with her sister and her family some 42 miles away, and S6 and S2 took turns bouncing between families each night and day -- with occasional meals and get-togethers between both sides of the family. One thing that everyone on both sides of the family kept noticing was how much time W stayed on her cellphone, nearly all the entire time. She would claim she had to keep in touch with her office, but I knew better and chose to ignore it -- I wanted to do nothing that would scare her from going to our first MC session the Sunday following our return from this trip.

On Tuesday, July 3, we went to dinner (lunch) together, just the two of us -- this was our 16th wedding anniversary. Days earlier when I had invited her out to celebrate this anniversary, she got angry and said there was nothing left to celebrate, our M was over. I told her that this date also marked the start of our family together, and that included our two S. I told her that we could go just to the same restaurant we went to following our wedding ceremony those many years ago. She loves good food, so she said she couldn't pass that up and accepted. The meal and the conversation was bittersweet, I won't go into it now, but suffice it to say she rationalizes every little thing that I say or do, or that happens while she and I are together, as some sign that her decision to leave me is meant to be. I gave her an anniversary card with a lot of my added sentiments expressed inside. And she said she was sorry but she was not going to give me anything in return, and that the words I wrote within the card were, again, ''Too Late'' and ''Why Now?''

Afterwards without giving her any advance warning of what I had planned I drove us by the church grounds where we had been married (the church's outdoor amphitheater) and parked. Before the bomb, I had entertained the idea of renewing our vows here with the help of the pastor who had originally married us years ago, but that plan was now beyond any possibility given our current state. We sat in the car and talked another hour or so. Nothing really seemed to change -- she is right, nothing I say to her is ever going to change her mind or her heart. I then drove her back so she could go on that afternoon and spend time with an old girlfriend. I had hoped she would have dedicated the remainder of our anniversary day to spend with me, but she wasn't about to ever do that.

We actually got back from the family vacation the preceding Thursday, July 5, and the next day W prodded me to move into the apartment. At first it was going to be a transitional period to ease any hard feelings our S might have had, but before I knew it she made this arrangement final -- the W wanted me out ASAP. Again I was being compliant while curious to see if W would make good on her promise to attend MC.

That first MC session was a very mixed bag. We discussed quite a lot of important issues and had different things brought up, but in the end it really got nowhere -- this was just the beginning after all. On the ride back it became evident W saw things contrary to how I did in this discussion. She heard only those things that would support and justify her leaving me, while I heard otherwise. This was not good. Not having found DB or DR yet I asked what her objectives were for the MC. She told me she agreed to MC so we could learn to communicate better in raising our 2 S and to thus facilitate a ''peaceable divorce”.

Yes, I know -- I remember mouthing those words back in disbelief: ''Marriage counseling to help facilitate a peaceful divorce.'' What an insane oxymoron. Needless to say, I was very bewildered and disappointed. She asked me what my goals for MC were -- why, eventual reconciliation of course!

At that, she snickered and then foisted another draft of the SA on me, which I had already seen on our kitchen countertop earlier and I had taken that opportunity to spell out some additional terms on it in my handwriting -- including a clause stating that neither of us would date other people while still legally married to each other. She got nasty when she saw that, crossed out ''while still legally married to each other'' and put ''for one month''. She raised her voice and said, ''I'll give you one month! If after that time you haven't proven to me that this marriage isn't over, then all bets are off!'' I was p*ssed.

The last eight weeks have been more of this roller-coaster, with more twists and turns than I can keep up with. Fortunately I finally discovered DB and DR and Dobson's Love Must Be Tough. And I have tried to work on those very few things I can control, like myself. She has spent a great deal of her time in trying anything at all to stay angry. She will constantly try to find some fault or failing in me to justify a steady anger at me, for the least little thing, and all I can fathom is that she does this because otherwise she'd have to face her guilt. Anger is the opposite emotion from guilt, right?

I have been trying to GAL (and trying/failing to stay out of R talks with W). I re-began Tai Chi, and began learning Country Line Dancing (which I suck at). I joined a Christian Bible study group for the first time in nearly 13 years and began taking my sons without fail every Sunday to Church ( I almost never did so before unless W happened to be off from work that day and could join us.) I relish getting to take care of my 2 S on weekends but feel a deep loss on those days I don't have them under the same roof. I am determined to take my proper role as spiritual and moral head of my S's lives and will not delegate that to W anymore. I owe my S's to do no less.

I have lost an additional 25 pounds since this ordeal began, not entirely voluntarily. I am however working out regularly in the apartment's gym and am as lean and trim as I was when I graduated high school, although this is about ten pounds less than I would like. I got my six-pack back for the first time since I started my career, but I still plan to bulk up more. I swim regularly too and have gotten more sunshine than I can remember. All of this has done tremendous wonders to alleviate my depression. I had become pretty sedentary most of the time due to my work schedule, and now I am back in shape and feeling so much better. If only this WAW/MLC/ILBNILWY nightmare weren't happening, my PMA would be through the roof! Unfortunately, with this dire marital situation I know the depression is only just so far away. But if I can survive this, I can survive anything.

Late in July, W began to pry me more and more about getting some psychological screening for me for Asperger's Syndrome (AS) since my W is seeking some explanation for S6's condition. Her increasing persistence in attempting to have me diagnosed with AS, I believe, is so she can (1) absolve herself of all genetic contributions to S6's handicap and (2) so she can attribute my failures in this marriage to something that cannot be fixed, again absolving her of any responsibility to work on this M.

While I concede I have historically exhibited some of the social traits ascribed to people with AS, such as shyness and a tendency to quietness and introversion, there are degrees to these traits and there are other key traits I do not have. I have taken the online assessments and have always scored in the normal range. Nevertheless, I have tried to keep an open mind and have scheduled appointments to begin to explore this. Even if no actual diagnosis is delivered I feel the knowledge I gain will only help me to better serve as F for S6.

She also had stopped wearing her W ring out in public some time in July -- lately, the last two times she's managed to join me and the S to attend church, she hasn't been wearing the ring there either. At first she was publicly keeping up the pretense at least in the Lord's house, but no longer. I still wear my ring, however, because we are still married, legally and in the eyes of God, despite any petty rationalizations she comes up with.

W continued MC up to four sessions before she bailed saying suddenly she felt like the two of us now had the communication tools to be able to raise our S as divorced parents. (WTH?!!) This happened to be the very MC session right after she got through berating me for not scheduling it because she had said after the previous one that we were done. Does that sound confusing? It should; the W has been giving very mixed (down-right schizophrenic) signals as to whether she really wanted to continue beyond the 5th session or not.

In this sixth and (what has become our) last session together she tried to steer the conversation and asked leading questions of our MC to state that we were done with accomplishing her ''goals'' from her point of view (improved ''communication'' between two divorcing parents). I realize now all she really wanted to do was go through the mere motions of MC so she could claim before a divorce judge that she had tried ''everything possible'' to ''save'' our marriage. What a sham.

I scheduled the next C session (IC, obviously not a real MC session) for myself and went alone.

A couple of weeks ago I finally got the July cellphone bill, and I realize now why I was no longer seeing them. W had run up our bill in June and July alone to the tune of over 900 dollars -- almost all of it to the OM. After continually berating me for making purchases on our credit cards and hurting our finances, she has the audacity to continue to talk to me about irresponsibility.

The fact that July's bill was even higher than June's and the minutes even greater to OM, cinched the real gist of what was going on. She had lied about OM and my W trying to work on their respective M's separately -- it was all just another shameless ploy to string me along so she could continue to get what she wants out of me and out of this deteriorating situation. Our M ship is foundering on the rocks and she's helping to finish it off.

Then I got wind last week she had purchased another cellphone (with a new number) and put it on our ''family'' plan. I held this knowledge to myself until my latest C session (IC by the MC) and vented that and everything else to him. I told him I was trying to do everything right and necessary to try to save this marriage and she was doing everything she could to kill it. Curiously, one of the things MC suggested I do was to read the book of Hosea in the Bible. By some coincidence, I had read from that very testament only weeks earlier and knew pretty much what the story was about. I was a bit shocked, and told him I thought I already knew what he meant.

My W, the control freak, began to pry that very evening into what was said between me and the MC. I tried to be coy, discrete and elusive, but she really knows how to push my buttons. She usually says something like, ''See? There you go. That's the very lack of communication from you that destroyed our marriage!'' and then I open right up. I've been dragged into R conversations, to my never failing chagrin, by just those kinds of tactics. I was somewhat wise to this by now, but being in a spiteful mood I threw her a bone in telling her that MC advised me to read Hosea (okay, not the best of responses from me.) She asked me what that meant, but she stopped and said she'd look it up herself. I warned her she was ''not going to like it'' and left it at that.

The next night I was just about to enter my first DivorceCare meeting (for divorced and separated persons needing spiritual guidance) at a local church when W called. She was angry about the reference to Hosea's wife, Gomer, being a whore, saying ''So that's how you think of me?!'' I told her that she was the one who insisted in knowing what advice the MC had given to me (not her).

I later wrote her an email that night stating that I did not see her that way, as a whore; rather I have been trying to be respectful of her as the mother of my children. I also told her that I was not entirely sure what our MC actually thought on the matter. But I believe that there are all kinds of ''whoredom'' in this world, not just the kind that first comes to mind. Whenever we abandon, compromise or ignore our core spiritual values and convictions for some short term gain in this physical world, we make ourselves into ''whores''. I said that I myself have been guilty of ''prostituting'' myself for a job I hate, trying to console myself that it was for the benefit of my family.

I said to her if she was inferring anything more condemning in the MC's advise to me, she was doing that herself on her own -- I had said no such thing.

Since then there have been several verbal skirmishes with her, and I know that I have got to stop letting her drag me into them. I am so very tired and angry at this whole situation. Yes, I know she's just trying to wear me down. I can't stand what she's doing to our kids. When I see how my S2 just cries for his Daddy as I am dropping them off each week, and I am doing my level best to be cheerful and reassuring to both he and S6 that everything is just fine and they'll be all right with W and MIL, it tears me up inside. It's all I can do to keep a lid on the mounting anger and disappointment in my W for not only maintaining her denial of what is happening to our S's but actually trying to rationalize it.

I so much want to go dark or give the Ultimate-LRT, but how do you do that when you've got kids? It's so hard to not talk to the spouse when you have to talk about the children. How do you do it? It's maddening.

There are times I wish that I really did not love this woman, and that I could just leave her to her stupid selfishness and sinful mistakes. But for the sake of our two S, whom I still love so very dearly and want to make all this up to, I have to endure this hell on earth.

<sorry for the long post.>
-------------------------
NoCodeBlues.
Me: 44
WAW: 43
S6 and S2
Married: 16 years
Together: 17 years
MLC: 2/2007
EA (PA?): May/June 2007 to present
Bomb: 6/15/2007
Separation: 7/6/2007
Posted By: fightingirish Re: King of Pain - 09/05/07 04:19 PM
Wow, I think that is longest post ive ever read ;\)

You've been through a lot obviously. If you've already started
dbing.. great, if not get the book it will help you. You definately need to gal.. it sounds like you are a little bit, but keep it up, it will help with your depression also.

Im sorry that you are your boys are going through this. When kids are involved, its so much worse. My boys are 1 1/2 and 4 1/2 so I know.

Its unfair that she is doing this, but you have also have admitted to having contributed to the problems.. it seems like she does not take any responsibility though, that is not good.

It takes two.. As far as the depression goes maybe you need to see a different dr. that will help you another way besides medication.

You should be proud of yourself the way you are handling everything with your kids. It is important that they stay in there home, just make sure you protect yourself (finacially that is).

You will get some great advice here, especially from Mark,theo and Husband, they are wise men and will help you get through this.

From a women's perspective, I don't think all is lost here. So keep up with the dbing and gal.. Don't beg her or plead with her, remain calm and keep her quessing..As far as the sex thing goes, I can't give any advice there, because my H doesn't think he gets it enough.. but I will say that they do take it personally.. but also she SHOULD be intiating also, not just you.

Blessings~

TAL
Posted By: runningoutoftime Re: King of Pain - 09/05/07 05:33 PM
Blue,

Yikes! You have gone through a lot!!! {{{Hugs}}}
My suggestion to you is read, reread, and reread the DB, DR books, this website, etc....

It sounds like you are doing great things for yourself. Working out will help with the endorphins...keep up them 6-pack abs!!!! Yeeeeeeah!!! With the depression, all the 180s and focusing on you might be a really great thing. I know you want your family back, but it sounds like you have some personal things to attend to. Like taking better care of you, working on PMA (positive mental state), GALing (beyond work!!!), and finding little things that bring you happiness...

Regarding the ASD and you being screened... give me a break!!!!!!!!!!!! Okay, I understand techies tend to share some of those characteristics and perhaps 90% of you people are probably on the very VERY high end of the spectrum (and everyone else has a little of something... ADHD, OCD, etc... we ALL have a little of some type of thing or other... I'm sure I could look at your wife and come up with a few labels for her too). By the way, I have a son with HF autism too. Whenever I think of these labels I think of the movie Forrest Gump and how his mother refused to have him labeled.

One more thing... detachment. That's crucial at this point. Emotionally detach. There is good information on this website about that. You need to stop trying to talk your wife out of her decisions. You need to PMA and let go of "the leash." Let her do what she needs to do and agree with that. Hopefully you can go into separation for awhile prior to actually filing for divorce. I think you both need time...her to get over anger and you to work though depression.

Is there anyway you can get out of that cell phone situation and have the bill sent to her?
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain - 09/06/07 12:45 AM
Originally Posted By: tiredandlost
Wow, I think that is longest post ive ever read ;\)


Well, yes, it's been 2 1/2 months since the bomb, and a lot has happened -- I only scratched the surface (you should see the journal I've been keeping!)

Originally Posted By: tiredandlost
Im sorry that you are your boys are going through this. When kids are involved, its so much worse. My boys are 1 1/2 and 4 1/2 so I know.


My heart goes out to all these children of all the DB'ers here in these forums. There are a lot of very good people I have seen participating here, and I am learning a great deal from their testimonies and advice. I can't tell you how much encourgement that gives someone like me to know that I am not alone, but at the same time it breaks me up to think that all these kids have to be the truly innocent victims of our spouses' actions.

Originally Posted By: tiredandlost
Its unfair that she is doing this, but you have also have admitted to having contributed to the problems..

Absolutely. It started with me and my depression and my foolish disatisfaction with my lot in life, taking for granted the love of a good wife and the adolation of two sweet little boys. My sin was dispair (I just never realized that it carried the death penalty.)

Originally Posted By: tiredandlost
it seems like she does not take any responsibility though, that is not good.

Sadly, no, she is in utter denial and is convinced she is still 100% the victim in this. But then that just means she's acting true to her new archetype, the WAW, right?

Thanks, TAL. I really appreciate your and everyone else's willingness to share your insights and experience with those still new to this rough road we travel.
Posted By: LL44 Re: King of Pain - 09/06/07 01:09 AM
My H blames me 100% for our problems before his affair, and deep down I think he justifies his A because of our problems. He is definately in a fog, most definately.

Oh the kids. Its awful isn't it, to see their beautiful faces, and realize this might change their lives forever. All because of something that CAN be fixed, but our spouses aren't willing to try. Mine are 3 and 5 yrs old, and its hard enough to explain why Daddy is sleeping on the couch, much less anything else that might happen down the road.

This is a fantastic place. A private place for yourself, where you can be guaranteed that someone understands. Take care.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain - 09/06/07 01:43 AM
Originally Posted By: runningoutoftime
{{{Hugs}}}


Thanks, ROOT, I appreciate it a lot.


Originally Posted By: runningoutoftime
By the way, I have a son with HF autism too. Whenever I think of these labels I think of the movie Forrest Gump and how his mother refused to have him labeled.

Good for you, root! I feel the same way.

Part of the friction bewteen W and I is that I take umbrage when she insists on characterizing S6 as AS in practically the first sentence with anyone we meet. "Hi, this is our son, S6, and he has Asperger's." In turn she gets angry at me because part of my problem early on in his diagnosis is that I was in a bit of denial, so then she thinks I am continuing to be in denial about our son's condition. No, I truly accept S6's condition, just as I do the color of his eyes or the shape of his little nose. I treat his AS just as a parent is supposed to treat any "handicap" their child may have -- it is just a handicap and not a label. He is an otherwise normal little boy, very bright and very high-functioning, and we should expect no less from him just because he may have this handicap. He needs encouragement not excuses. Making excuses for him will only harm him by keeping him from being able to cope with the real world.

Originally Posted By: runningoutoftime
Is there anyway you can get out of that cell phone situation and have the bill sent to her?


I forgot to mention that I sort-of resolved that problem already. I confronted the W about the bill last week and without admitting any guilt or wrong-doing whatsoever she insisted on having the account put in her name alone. I let her. Frankly, I don't want to see the phone records anymore -- it's too painful counting up the hours she spent on the phone with OM (6,239 minutes in just two billing periods! That's double the time she spent talking to anyone else, including me, combined!) And now she has put him on the "family" plan, it sickens me (I guess she rationalizes that she's doing a financially responsible thing by now talking mobile-to-mobile with OM for just a flat fee.)

So all in all, it's now one less thing to worry about, so I can concentrate on GAL.

Thanks for all the words of encouragement.
Posted By: LL44 Re: King of Pain - 09/06/07 01:46 AM
family plan? Oh gross. \:\(

Funny thing, when I complained about our triple sized phone bill, H had OW call our HOUSE instead? Hello, fog much? I calmly said I would pay anything on the #*$& cell phone, but she is never to call MY residence ever again. Bold much?
Posted By: Kali Re: King of Pain - 09/06/07 01:52 AM
well my H now carries around two cell phones. his OW bought him one and put it on her family plan (different provider). but i still see calls on our shared phone to and from her, i am actually quite tired of footing the bill for their calls.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain - 09/06/07 02:47 AM
Has anyone here ever actually found one of those pod things in the backyard where their spouse lives?

I expect any moment to see Kevin McCarthy's character running down the street, screaming "They're here already. Your're next!"
Posted By: LL44 Re: King of Pain - 09/06/07 02:49 AM
LOL!! NoCode, thank you for giving me my first real laugh tonight. \:\) \:\) \:\)
Posted By: runningoutoftime Re: King of Pain - 09/08/07 02:25 AM
Blues,

One thing you may or may not know is families who have children with issues (autism, OCD, ADHD, tourettes, etc...) have a higher statistical chance of marital discord and divorce. I think part of this is parents often disagree on how to deal with it. That adds a lot of strain to the marriage. Add in crazy work schedules, busy child rearing, lack of mom and dad time together, friendship, dating each other, etc... and you have a pretty dreary situation.

By the way, my husband and I have had a lot of disagreement over how to deal with my son's issues. Even though I don't introduce my son as having autism, I have done other things in the past that have made my husband very angry (differences of opinion on dealing with OCD or sensory issues, a med trial I enrolled my son...). These things did have a huge impact on the marriage. On the other hand, I don't think it absolves the person having the affair of what they are doing. It just helps make it easier to understand.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain - 09/08/07 04:13 AM
<Journaling>
Labor Day weekend was not very good for me. I backslid a bit and much of the momentum came from the W. It got off on a bad foot because I give too much consideration to her.

I had been planning to take the boys (S6 and S2) camping at a nearby state park. At first the W was very supportive of me getting back into camping and introducing my sons to its joys. But the Wednesday before, she began to express reservations about our S's being too young, and too much of a handful, especially for tent camping. I immediately performed a 180 on her and said maybe she's right, especially S2.

I then quickly said that maybe we could slowly introduce the both of them to camping by setting up the tent in our backyard (of our house where W resides with MIL). It would be far more safe and contained than out in one of the local camping grounds. W immediately protested the very thought. She said that Friday was out of the question, but Saturday might be all right, she'd have to think about it.

Curious, I gently asked why, recalling that the MIL was going to be out-of-town. W hemmed and hawed and finally said that she did not want our S's to get the idea that my camping with them in our backyard constituted their daddy returning back into the household. (WTH??? It's my house too!)

I told her okay and dropped the matter. She tried to compromise by saying I could take just S6 to the state park's camping grounds and leave S2 with her. I declined; while I think S6 and I could use some quality time together, just F and S, I have been reluctant to give back any time with either of them to W, 3-day weekend or not. I enjoy them too much to give up what little I get as it is.

So as a backup plan, I used a smaller tent and set it up in the middle of the living room of my apartment. All three of us had a blast, and I am able to begin training them in a safe and (very) controlled environment, without the W being too concerned.

As for the W, I knew what was going down, however. I'm not stupid, and I saw immediately through her back-peddling about not wanting me there Friday -- but somehow Saturday was a possibility? And I didn't need S6 asking his mother where she was when she made her regular bedtime call to them that Friday night either. Here it is, 8:30 PM (she's usually famished by 5:30 or 6), her mother is out-of-town, and she tells S6 she's out "having dinner". When he asks why, she says it's because "she's hungry", and leaves it at that.

Saturday afternoon I took the boys over to the state park to fish in the lake there -- thus the other component of a typical camping trip. None of us so much as got a bite, but 2 S had fun trying. They both were a little disappointed in not being able to bring home some fish to eat, but I think they just enjoyed being out with their F more than anything. I enjoyed the time with them greatly.

However, as we were leaving the park, around 6 PM, I noticed a couple of voicemail messages on the cellphone -- one left about 5:35 PM and the other at 5:50. The messages from W were frantic, especially the second one which was marked as URGENT. W was getting hysterical in her tone -- and because she started out saying, "I reaally need to get in touch with you..." I began thinking something tragic had happened.

I listened further and realized W was hysterically overreacting at not being able to get ahold of us when she called both times. She accused me of purposely setting the phone to go directly to voicemail so as to avoid her and prevent her from speaking to "her" S's. She actually threatened to call out the lawyers on me. She then said that now the cellular bill was in her name, the cellphone I was using was now "hers" and she was going to take it and make it the property of S6, so her sons would always have access to their mother. My jaw was in my lap and my exasperation and anger rising. I kept my cool though.

I called her back and calmly told her she was way over reacting. I told her where we had been, fishing, and that she had even encouraged it when I told her of our plans early that morning. I told her I was not happy with the accusatory tone of the messages she left and that, while I understood none of this that has been happening to us was easy for her either, she had very little grounds in charging me with actions she deemed untrustworthy. I told her she had scared the living h*ll out of me and that now I was very concerned with the manner in which her mind was leading her now of days. I told her I was watching her behavior very closely now.

In the end she apologized for overreacting. But despite that she has assured me she is okay now, this outburst tells me quite a bit where her mind is now. It ain't good. I think the guilt for whatever salacious behavior she may be engaging in has caused her to crack up somewhat.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain - 09/08/07 05:01 AM
<more journaling>
Yesterday was rough for me. I could feel the millstone of depression quite heavily being alone last evening in the apartment. I can now really understand how people can harm themselves when going through these painful ordeals. (No, I'm okay -- I'm just saying I understand.)

Contrast that with today, especially this evening. All afternoon I was getting more and more charged up in anticipation of going back to our house to pick up the boys. I now have my 2 S's safely tucked away in their bunk-bed, and I am as content as I can be. I have come to realize that for some time when I have been around the W I am not quite as happy as I should be. I love being around my W, don't get me wrong, I really do -- that is, until she says something to me. It is then I realize that I am better off when she's gone (at least while the alien body snatchers have her brain enthralled).

It is just that now I have come to realize that my S's are still my family (even though she is breaking this family apart), and I love them very much and appreciate every moment I get with them. The wife has been under the impression that my weekends with them had been too stressful for me in the past. Her observations (whenever she wasn't at work and happened to be around to see) were that I didn't enjoy helping to raise them. I have always told her she was misjudging me in that regard but I could never put my finger on why. But now I can. Whenever she is around me and I'm taking care of our children, I have not enjoyed the experience. Her control freak nature kicks in and she tries to criticize how I am handling them. I happen to be just fine when she's not there to complain about how I do things. And she is not around to observe the positives when they happen, because she tends to inhibit them by her very presence. The Heisenburg Uncertainty Principle in action, folks.

Anyway, this afternoon as I am starting the engine of my car with my 2 S's in the back seat, I've got Rascal Flatt's song "Me and My Gang" on the CD player, and I decided to crank it up loud. My S's love this song, especially S6, and it has become the semi-official theme song for the three of us. The W, standing to the side of the driveway as we're pulling out, has this odd look on her face. She's smiling but you can tell it's more for the kids' sake, and you can almost read her mind, "He is acting like such a juvenile."

I didn't care, I was just happy. She can see the three of us with big happy grins on our faces as we're rockin' out on this up song, our heads nodding to the beat. It was a great feeling. I reached my hand to the back seat where the boys were and they each slapped me a "five". S6 is now singing along with the song as we drive out of the cul de sac, music blaring, grins flashing and hands waving bye-bye to Mommy.

Was I rubbing it in? Maybe. But I am not going to fail to enjoy the time I have with my S's just because it might happen to make W feel bad. Her happiness for now has been removed from my list of responsibilities, at her insistence.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain - 09/08/07 05:23 AM
Root,

I truly understand, all too well now. Such things as the disageements on how to handle issues concerning the children can indeed become a significant contributing factor to marital difficulties. Our M is certainly proof of that.

But yes, there are no marital difficulties that can justify adultery. In fact there is nothing I can think of that could ever justify such an offense.

Thanks.
Posted By: LL44 Re: King of Pain - 09/08/07 09:08 AM
NoCode, I totally agree. While we can try to understand what brought our spouses to commit adultery, it can never be justified, no matter how they twist it.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain - 09/08/07 03:53 PM
Ugggggh! She did it to me again!

W called this morning before she went to work, to talk to our S's before she starts her day. She then called back, first to tell me she finally got a package my mother had sent her for her birthday last week (just a a b'day card and a few books W had left behind during our visit in July. Then to make a comment about my C session tomorrow. She just said she agreed that we should never talk about C or R within earshot of S6. I was trying to be first to end the call at that point -- I certainly was trying to avoid the direction her conversation was going.

She said she hoped that the C (who had tried to be our MC) could shed more light on his reference to Hosea, as she felt any anaolgy to Hosea's wife did not really fit her or our situation. I paused for a moment, trying to consider my words, and said "I am sorry this really bothers you. I will inquire wih him when I see him, since I am not sure myself." And then again, I tried to break off the conversation. But she continued by saying she really hoped I would, because she was considering using him for her IC, and she would like to think he had a better understanding of her position than that advice to me suggested. She continued to say that in the two solo session she had with him that she thought he was very good at asking the right questions to allow her to better understand herself and her past motivations. She said she felt he had really helped the two us to better understand the issues that has caused our marriage to fail and to understand better how to communicate in raising our S's. She said that if he really thought W was on a parallel with Gomer, Hosea's wife, it would really change how she thought of him, since W thinks of herself as nothing like that (i.e., an unfaithful whore of a wife).

I am in agony by this point. I want to break it off so badly, but she's left this pregant pause for me to reply, and I am fighting to come up with the right words to get me out of this, but i also don't want to be seenas running and hiding back in my shell again, the very behavior she has had a problem with. I said, "We're talking about the R again. With S6 sitting right next to me."

She continued, saying something about she was never unfaithful to me while we were married <Huh?! WTH?!!!>. She said that I was the one who broke our vows first when I failed to "love, honor and cherish" her early on. She went further to say that I had broken my vows over the last 16 years. She said she never did anything unfaithful until I killed the marriage, implying what she's been up to was not adulterous since, in her mind, the marriage was already over by then!

I can't tell you how this chills me to the bone to hear such rationalizations coming from her lips. I was being very, very calm and quiet with her, but I was (am) seethingly angry and hurt. I was thinking to myself, "You are one sick and twisted soul right now, aren't you?"

After another pregnant pause, I said, "You don't have to explain this to me. I am not the One you will have to try to explain this to some day."

I told her that her participation in the MC'ing was a sham, that she had only been going through the motions. She tried to say that she never said it was for MC, but so she I could get along and learn to better raise our S's. I told her she has wasted my time, and she can see an IC if she wants to but I am not trading C information with her anymore. As far as I am concerned there was no MC at all because she had never allowed for any possibility of reconciliation.

I said I will do as I see fit, and she can do as she sees fit. She then snidely said that she doesn't need my permission. I said, "No, and I don't need yours either."

I told her goodbye and ended the call.

I feel like I am living in a Twilight Zone episode.

I really fear for my W's mortal soul more and more each day -- and this is so very agonizing for me to witness. I do see every time I talk to her the wisdom in further detaching, but I am still very, very concerned for how all this will play out for my poor S's.

I am praying so very much, for my family and for my wife's poor lost soul.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain - 09/09/07 02:23 AM
<rant>
I've gotta' vent!

Tonight the W never called at 8 PM (like she said she would) to speak to our 2 S's as I was putting them to bed. I let both S6 and S2 leave her voicemail messages, and hoped she would return our call before they fell asleep. I then called the house and ther was no answer. I could tell the boys were disappointed, but I tried to assuage their concerns and kill a little more time (to give their mother another chance to call) by reading some more bedtime stories. Soon, it's almost 9 PM and 2 S's are very sleepy (we swam in the pool again today) -- and still no call from the W.

I am more than a bit concerned and starting to get a little ticked off. I tried all her phone numbers again for a second round, and still no luck. We leave another voicemail for her and S2 is is starting to whine about not talking to Mommy.

Finally she calls back just as I've given up. She claims to be at "the office" doing paperwork and missed our calls to her on her cellphone. Yeah, right. I am wondering whether she chose to "do her paperwork" at the office instead of at the house might be because a certain co-worker is keeping her company. Whether or not she's up to no good or not is not the point -- the fact that she forgot to call her own children when she promised them she would has got me steamed. (And she keeps telling me that she is being a good mother to our S's. Maybe in the past, but I'm certainly not seeing it now.)

You know if I had pulled this little stunt, especially after assuring S6 that she would call again before bedtime, but had actually forgotten, she would have reamed me a new one from head to toe.

Moreover, after that little blowup from her last weekend at not having ready access to be able to talk to our S's, this callous disregard for the fact that they, our S's, might actually want to talk to her is hypocritically grating. Such a double standard.

Please, somebody give me my real wife back! This ain't funny anymore.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain - 09/09/07 02:59 AM
I could really use some advice from the veterans in this forum.

I am tempted to contact the OM's W to see what information she might have. I know practically nothing about their sitch, other than they've had some difficulties as well. In fact, just looking at the cellphone records I can pretty much tell that about some time aroundt mid-July the OM and his W split up. I figure they too must have separated about that time since the calls between their residence's lan-line and my W's cellphone suddenly stopped about that time, and thereafter it was just the OM's cellphone.

So, has any body sized up the Pro's and Con's for getting more info from the other injured party?
Posted By: Dr LOve Re: King of Pain - 09/09/07 03:15 AM
no code,

This is delicate territory. I have not contacted my W OM W. I have the Phone Number but Have not done it.It can go either way sometimes you can work together and sometimes it joins the two more.
Rule of thumb is no contact

husband
Posted By: runningoutoftime Re: King of Pain - 09/09/07 03:16 AM
>>She continued, saying something about she was never unfaithful to me while we were married <Huh?! WTH?!!!>. She said that I was the one who broke our vows first when I failed to "love, honor and cherish" her early on. She went further to say that I had broken my vows over the last 16 years. She said she never did anything unfaithful until I killed the marriage, implying what she's been up to was not adulterous since, in her mind, the marriage was already over by then!<<

Blues,

You know the rationalization for guilt is normal. Just ignore it, and say, "I understand what you're saying" (in other words, I understand you're crazy and trying to warp things to fit whatever reality you're trying to create). Don't challenge it with logic. That's a waste of breath. Just listen or agree...

Expect a double standard, expect blame, expect her to try and make you angry. It's all very normal. You have to detach and let it go. Even see the humor in her manipulation. Let it be on her back.

And when she blows up, just be calm and even apologetic about any errors or "misunderstandings." I did that a lot and it was amazing how once I did that regularly my H slowly started calming down... over time... It's like someone puffing up for a fight and the other person just refusing to go there. After awhile she will start realizing she is overreacting. She may not admit it, and it may take time in her crazy state of mind, but chances are she'll eventually get there.

I think overall you are doing very well. Enjoy your kids and start enjoying your time. ..... and expect huge ups and low, low downs on this rollercoaster ride.

As far as contacting OP or OP's spouse, most people try to avoid that. I personally am one of the few who can't hold it in and have to confront. That's just my nature. If you do decide to go that way it's important to do it unemotionally, informationally and you have to be willing to accept whatever wrath or backlash may come your way. If OM and his W are separated something like this may doom their chances for reconciliation.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain - 09/09/07 03:16 PM
Thanks, Root, Husband,

I know. I realize that I shouldn't contact the OM's W -- if for no other reason than it would diminish my effort to truly detach.

And that is what I've got to do. Detach.

I feel heavy guilt for what I have done (or not done) to destroy this marriage. And I know that her actions are her own, and I bear no responsibility for the choices she has/is making. "Every man's soul is his own," to paraphrase Shakespeare. But when one takes those vows, cleaves to another in marriage, becoming "one flesh", it becomes very difficult to segregate the stain on your spouse's soul from your own.

And as a born-again Christian I feel the need to reach out and speak to someone who is about to make a mortal, spiritually damaging mistake. I just have to come to grips with the harsh reality that right now she sees me as her enemy, and will thus do the opposite of what I might advise. If I truly love her, I have to set her free -- even if it means she falls. Detachment protects us from being damaged ourselves by the spouse's actions and behaviors. It is just so hard to do. It is very much as Michele says -- it is the most difficult thing you might ever have to do in your life.

In retrospect, W is very much like someone who has a drug or alcohol addiction, the same kind of denials, paranoia and rationalizations. In that case, I can't really help her, not until she hits bottom and is ready to recognize her problems and become willing to do somehing about them, if ever. I need to work on my own issues in the mean time, and focus on my S's and heal the tattered remains of what was my family.

My gratitude to everyone here and to Michele and others for having this forum is immeasurable. Thanks again.

<journaling>
I woke up just before 5 AM this morning. S6 was sick, had a fever and needed to throw up. I helped him through it, resisting the instinctual urge to call my W, the RN to get her advice. I tried to shake myself from having that reflex, to remember that I was, in effect, a single parent in this instance and that I no longer had a spouse at the ready to help out in such a matter. Not at this time.

I got S6 back to rest for a little while more. I curled up on a cushion beside the S's bunkbed and tried to keep watch. About daylight, S6 awoke complaining of stomach pains. He also had a noticeable temperature. Likely a stomache virus.

Unfortunately, I realized I had pain relievers and other medicines in the apartment that would be suitable for children, but nothing for upset stomaches. I saddled them all up in the car and managed to get them to the nearest grocery store to get something with sodium bicarbonate, to ease S6's stomache pains. I also got some of the pink stuff just in case.

After we got home, I gave the upset stomache medicine and some Ibuprofen to S6 -- it wasn't long before he was feeling a bit better, but his fever was still going.

We didn't make it to Church today, for obvious reasons. This is the first time in months we haven't managed to go. So I'm planning a little devotional with the boys today here in the apartment. S6 seems fine now, but I am closely watching his temperature.
Posted By: Kali Re: King of Pain - 09/09/07 03:23 PM
NoCode

I just wanted to pop in and tell you you are doing amazingly well. I know what you are going through is very difficult. I understand the guilt of your part in the problems in the marriage, but you need to remember that the A is truly on your W's shoulders. She made that choice.

You are an amazing dad and those boys know it.
Posted By: LL44 Re: King of Pain - 09/09/07 03:23 PM
Sorry about S6, its so hard when they are miserable. Glad you took control (You are Daddy!!) and handled it. That will surprise W.

I am getting to the point of knowing I have to let H go, or at least let him know he is free to go. I have to realize that he might not come back (or even stay with OW) but if he doesn't go, he'll feel trapped and nothing will change. How sad.

Our situations are similar (same timeline for A's, although I see you aren't sure hers is PA), and our kids are the same age except mine are girls.

Take care and hope S6 feels better soon.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain - 09/09/07 04:37 PM
Many thanks, LWB. I really appreciate it.

I had for a while questioned whether I wanted to know more about my W's A with the OM -- whether it had gone PA or not. I still wonder, but it does me no good. I know enough already, and I understand that for a woman an EA is just as threatening to the marriage as a PA. Either way, it is not good for the M.

My heart goes out to you in that you now have solid confirmation of your H's betrayal. And definitely TMI at that.

The thing with the kids though -- that one is particularly painful. I know. I found out the OM had visited my house while I was at work back in June. He was introduced to my S's and the MIL. He fauned all over the boys and was so syrupy around the MIL, showing so much interest in her needle-point work. I wouldn't know about it except the MIL bragged about how he glowed over her handiwork (as if I had never done so in the past. Familiarity breeds contempt, I guess.)

The W blew it off as OM simply coming by to give advice about our kitchen (which I am slated to repaint this Fall.) I see it as sizing him up with the family as my replacement. And mind you, here's the kicker -- if he's been such a good friend to W all these years, why have I never met him in person? I've met all her female co-workers over the years, but why was I never formally introduced to the sole male RN in their organization? And yet he gets invited into my home, when I am not there?!

Yeah, I've got quite a few anger and trust issues to sort out. I know. I've got to detach. I've got to detach. I've got to detach...

Thanks for listening and supporting.
Posted By: LL44 Re: King of Pain - 09/09/07 04:46 PM
NoCode, OM being in your home is just soooo awful. And they just don't see how inappropriate it is.

H spent ALL summer going to the park, the pool, the library, grocery shopping, etc with OW and her kids. I knew he was going to these places (I work in the evenings, he has the kids, I was blindly thrilled he was getting out and enjoying the summer), but he would leave out that it was always with OW. I am talking daily events with her and her kids.

Detachment and anger issues. Let me know if you figure it out. ;\)
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain - 09/10/07 02:29 PM
<Journaling>

This weekend has turned out to be pretty much negative. The W and I had another disagreement last night. She's already upset with me for S6 being sick (like I wanted S6 to get sick, even if it is not in my power to make it happen.) She's the RN so she was particularly mad I didn't consult with her before trying to get him some medicine for his stomach. (I can't win.)

Among all the many, many other reasons she stays perpetually angry and distrustful of me, it was the fact that I did not tell her what was going on with my mother that has her upset now.

My poor mom. She just sold her home to move in with my youngest brother in an apartment. She's been through a lot in the last few years and she was tired of maintaining her own home, so she sold her house and took the remaining equity and put it into her retirement. She's leased a new apartment along with my "kid" brother until the both of them can make some longer term decisions about each of their lives.

She had completed her move only this past Friday, and yesterday the entire apartment complex burned down. The both of them lost everything. I spent a good portion of yesterday afternoon trying to coordinate information with my other brother, his wife and my mother and youngest brother.

I finally told W last night when calling at the S's bedtime. She got upset at me for all the stupid inconsiderate things I've been doing of late, including not telling her about this.

I apologized saying that she has been misjudging me of late and that I should not have misjudged her. But she has shown no interest in talking with my family. They had accepted W fully into the family when we married and have come to love her dearly. But since the bomb she has never returned their calls and refuses to talk to them. It is one thing if she has a beef with me, but they (my side of the family) did nothing to deserve this cold, callous treatment from her. So I apologized, but I had assumed she really didn't care.

W called me back later (I'm in the gym working out and should have not taken her call) telling me that I needed to gather all of the digital photos together that I had and to print them all out for my mother. She even offered to put them into an album and she would mail them to my mom for me. Then she told me to tell my mother how sorry she was for this tragedy.

Maybe I shouldn't have gotten angry with W, but it rubbed me the wrong way. She was again bossing me around, telling me what I needed to do -- after she had abdicated that role in my life (it was a role I should never have granted her very controlling nature in the first place.) I thanked her for her suggestions, but I told her I resented the fact that she still thinks that I am still too unfeeling and inconsiderate enough to come up with these thoughtful gestures on my own. In fact my brother, his W and I were already in plans to gather all the photos we could among ourselves and the extended family. I thanked her for the album suggestion, and I would take care of that. As for passing along condolences from W to my mother, I told W that if she was truly concerned for my mother and my family, why doesn't she just call them herself?

She said, "I can't do that." I paused and said, "fine."

She also asked about my C session that afternoon, particularly the part about Hosea. I told her that the C meant the passage to have bearing on my situation and not hers. It is a story about humility, compassion and forgiveness. What I gather from the C is that I need to realize that W is going to do what she's going to do, she's made her choice, and that like Hosea with his W and , by the analogy, God and the Israelites, I have to let the person I love fall, make their mistakes, let them suffer for their choices, and be forgiving of them when (or if) they come to their senses and seek forgiveness. W continues to resist this analogy, saying she will never come back, and that it is over between us. She says that I refuse to accept her decisions -- she "knows" that I will never accept that the marriage is dead.

I told her I agreed the marriage was now dead, and that the only way to resurrect it would have been to start over anew, with a new relationship together, but she has not only been unwilling to even try, but has actually been attempting to undermine any such possibility. As long as someone else was in the picture there was no chance she would ever attempt to see any other possibilities.

She got a call from someone else at that point (at nearly 11 PM at night) and said she'd have to call me back a little later to continue the conversation. Hurt, (because I knew of only one other person who would be calling her so late at night) I calmly said, "What would be the point? You've already told me there is nothing I can say to you to change your feelings. And I know that. So,... good bye."

Yes, this was another backslide. A very deep backslide back into the pit. It now sets the stage for for going dark on a very sour note. Unlike W, I have a difficult time not being open and honest. I cannot easily fake my thoughts and feelings; it's so against my nature. The best I have ever been to do was to clam up, hide in my shell, and not say anything. But I know that only makes me angry, bottling it up like that. I've got a lot of growing yet to do. I'm not there yet. Unfortunately, I see that my lack of progress in this area is killing any chance I might have had to help my W.

I've got to detach. Lord, help me.
Posted By: runningoutoftime Re: King of Pain - 09/10/07 05:50 PM
GALing will help with detaching. I think you are doing quite well. Maybe you already wrote about this, but why did you move out of the house?
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain - 09/10/07 06:36 PM
Originally Posted By: runningoutoftime
why did you move out of the house?


Believe me -- this was not by choice. The W had already signed a lease to move into a 3-bedroom apartment taking MIL and our 2 S's, scheduled for week of July 9. She was dead-cert determined to have her own space -- with the MIL as her cheerleader, she was not bluffing, nor was she going to procrastinate, as some WAS's might do.

This h*ll-bent--for-leather separation was bad enough, but the fact that she was going to uproot our 2 S's to do so was too much for me to bear. It was so selfish and unfair to my children.

So I convinced her to cancel her lease, we'd both "eat" the lost deposit money and processing fees, and I would volunteer to be the one to leave and move into an apartment instead.

Wise or not, I sacrificed my own comfort for the sake of my sons. If the separation had to be, then I did not want them to have to pay for the stupidity of their parents.
Posted By: runningoutoftime Re: King of Pain - 09/10/07 11:19 PM
Well, that was kind of you. I'm sure it's much more comfortable for all of them there. But I completely understand you wanting to do what's best for the children. You are a good dad. Try not to feel too bad about OM at your house. Keep in mind all the memories in that house include you. Furniture you and your wife bought, etc... It's never as idealic as we imagine.

I hope you are doing things to help enjoy some of the alone time, but staying busy and GALing too. Have you made friends in your apartment complex? Maybe look for community events to attend? Perhaps you should arrange a party there. Invite people from work and maybe even some neighbors????

By the way, what kind of custody arrangements have you come up with so far? How much time do you get to spend with the boys?

By the way, it's not stupidity of parents, it's parent.... sorry, just had to throw that in. I hate seeing you be so hard on yourself when you have been the one willing to work on things.

Now, go make some fun plans for the week and weekend!!!!!!!
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain - 09/11/07 02:27 AM
Thanks, Root. I appreciate the nice thoughts. I, like most of us here, am trying to do what little I can to make the most of a tough situation.

I have tried a few things for GAL.
  • I was taking (Country Western) dance lessons, but I still suck at it, and don't seem to be improving. It has gotten me out among other folks though, and that's good.
  • I have re-taken up Tai Chi, but mostly as a solitary endeavor -- I haven't yet found the right instructor at the right price yet, but I'm still looking.
  • I rebegan camping, and am going to slowly introduce it to the S's. S6 will be old enough for Cub Scouts next Spring, so by that time we'll have that and camping to look forward to.
  • I haven't made too many friends yet in the apartment, other than being acquantanced with some of the other parents who bring their kids to the swimming pool every weekend.
  • On Monday evenings, I am attending a DivorceCare group at a local church. It is a program for Christian support groups, for people who are either divorced or separated. I've met a few very nice people there as well. (I just got back from there just now. The session was on Forgiveness -- more on that below.)
  • On Wednesday evenings, I am participating in a Bible Study Group with about nine other people.


So I have a pretty full plate right now, and I am having to pick and choose which activities I can participate in without overdoing it.

I am Mr. Mom, taking care of my 2 S's, from Friday evening to Sunday evening, every weekend. Plus most holidays. I'd certainly like more time with them, but right now this is all that's practical, or that W would allow. It means that I am not really all that much available for spending time with other adults on those prime evenings when most people are off -- i.e., Friday and Saturday nights (The W is free though on those nights and has been secretly carousing while I've been her babysitter.) But I really enjoy my S's company and being their dad. I wouldn't trade it for anything.

On Forgiveness:
The lesson tonight really struck home with me. The anger and resentment I've been feeling towards W have been harming me when I need to heal. I recognze that I need to detach from the situation, for real. I have been holding onto the pain and resentment of what W is and has been doing to us, and it has been eating at me and disrupting my peace. I've got to let go and let God. I have to truly forgive my W -- not absolve her of her transgressions, not forgetting, and not codoning the hurtful behaviors either. But giving them over to God to handle, and clearing the debt I may feel W owes me. It's not going to be easy given that the transgressions are still ongoing, but is necessary to allow me to truly detach and be able to become a better person.

Thanks.
Posted By: runningoutoftime Re: King of Pain - 09/11/07 10:32 PM
All of that sounds very good. You mentioned tai chi, have you thought of martial arts? Often they have family discounts and it would be wonderful for your boys. I think it's particularly good for AS kids. Lots of motor/sensory work, bilaterial integration (to help stimulate both sides of the brain), kind of like OT without the expensive price! Also, helps make men hunky! ;\)

I'm glad to hear you are attending Divorce Care. That support will be very helpful. One of my good friends goes and mentioned one of the attendees did get back with his wife. Although I gather a lot of their focus is on moving on. The whole forgiveness aspect is crucial regardless of where the relationship goes. It's the people who hold onto bitterness (like this close friend of mine!), who really struggle and seem to have more difficulty healing. I was always very disappointed that she refused to DB (and I spent almost every single day with her last summer!). Oh well...

You hang in there and keep doing positive things. Country Western dancing...hummmm.... what about hip hop? Might be a better way to get out aggressions and you don't have to listen to all those "broken heart" songs. Just a thought!
Posted By: LL44 Re: King of Pain - 09/11/07 11:07 PM
I don't know how to forgive right now. I think the hurt is too raw. I have a fear that if I do verbally forgive H (he hasn't asked for it, by the way), that he will also consider that 'forgetting'.

You are one amazing father too by the way!
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain - 09/12/07 03:00 AM
Originally Posted By: runningoutoftime
You mentioned tai chi, have you thought of martial arts? Often they have family discounts and it would be wonderful for your boys. I think it's particularly good for AS kids.


That's what a co-worker has advised me as well (her S18 has AS and he does karate.) S6 has already shown interest when he has seen me practice T'ai Chi Chuan and Qigong. He's so funny -- after about five minutes he flops on the floor and says, "Boy, I'm tired! This is harder than it looks."

We looked into Taikwando for S6, but I think karate might be more his style. Most of the dojos around here have some pretty steep fees, but I'm still looking.

Originally Posted By: runningoutoftime
Country Western dancing...hummmm.... what about hip hop? Might be a better way to get out aggressions and you don't have to listen to all those "broken heart" songs. Just a thought!


<chuckle> I used to hate Country music, thinking it was for "grownups". Have always loved both Rock and Classical (and Classic Rock ) Have always had an affinity for the Blues, Folk and "Americana". Loved Hank Williams Sr. (as well as a wide eclectic choice in musical genres) in college. Now I find I have a thing for Modern Country. Especially now -- it goes well with relationship problems and there's always some song playing that strikes a chord with my sitch. (I guess that could be seen as either good or bad.)

The dancing is supposed to be good exercise, but I am coming to the conclusion the other students are a bit more advanced than I, so I am easily left behind. Need to find some folks who are just starting out. If I don't have the rhthym for the Cotton Eye Joe, I don't think I'd have a prayer for Hip Hop.

Thanks for the suggestions, root. I appreciate any feedback.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain - 09/12/07 03:23 AM
Originally Posted By: lwb
I don't know how to forgive right now. I think the hurt is too raw. I have a fear that if I do verbally forgive H (he hasn't asked for it, by the way), that he will also consider that 'forgetting'.

You are one amazing father too by the way!


Thanks, lwb. Coming from someone such as yourself who has shown such poise in handling your conversation with your spouse, that's a great complement.

The thing about forgetting is that only God can truly "Forgive and Forget" It is impossible for we mortals -- we can forgive but we can not help but remember (if we're conscious of course.) And it is not necessary for the offender to ask for our forgiveness, nor to have repented their sin, nor even to have acknowledged the injury in the first place. All that is required is that we forgive that person, because, as Michele wrote, it is a gift to ourselves.

By forgiving those who have done us wrong, we in effect turn this hurt over to God, for He is the final judge. And by taking this burden off of us and letting God deal with that person (whether sooner or later) then we are freeing ourselves up to move on, past the pain. It does feel like the wise and spritually uplifting thing to do, but I also know, personally, that it is very, very hard to do. Every time you think you might be past the hurt, something dredges it back up. But then that is just part of the cyclical, evolving nature of our healing process. Each time it gets a little easier and little easier.

I really see the wisdom now in letting go and GAL'ing. It goes hand-in-hand with Forgiveness. It's more for us, not the spouse or the marriage necessarily.
Posted By: LL44 Re: King of Pain - 09/12/07 10:29 PM
"I really see the wisdom now in letting go and GAL'ing. It goes hand-in-hand with Forgiveness. It's more for us, not the spouse or the marriage necessarily. "

I totally agree. Hope you are having a good day.
Posted By: Dr LOve Re: King of Pain - 09/12/07 10:44 PM

And it is not necessary for the offender to ask for our forgiveness, nor to have repented their sin, nor even to have acknowledged the injury in the first place. All that is required is that we forgive that person, because, as Michele wrote, it is a gift to ourselves.

By forgiving those who have done us wrong, we in effect turn this hurt over to God, for He is the final judge. And by taking this burden off of us and letting God deal with that person (whether sooner or later) then we are freeing ourselves up to move on, past the pain. It does feel like the wise and spritually uplifting thing to do, but I also know, personally, that it is very, very hard to do. Every time you think you might be past the hurt, something dredges it back up. But then that is just part of the cyclical, evolving nature of our healing process. Each time it gets a little easier and little easier.


Noco,

Did you have a vision? See a burning bush or something?

This is right ON. I know it is hard and I know it would be nice if the "offender" would say they were sorry but it is not necessary to move on. This is what I am trying to do. I am trying to re establish the emotional /intimate bond between my W and me. After this is done. Then I would like to address what went wrong in the past and what WE can do to prevent it from happening again.

Husband

Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain - 09/13/07 01:51 AM
Nah... Well, maybe a shrubbery... of genus epiphany.

I have been thinking a lot about the lessons I learned on forgiveness in reading the Bible and in these support group sessions -- I have been taking a lot of the messages to heart and have been ruminating on how this applies to DB'ing and GAL'ing.

I just find a lot of time now of days to reflect on things, especially while pumping iron and doing other activities in my solitude, away from my family. I guess that would be a plus in the separation. Before the wakening and the bomb, I just did not give myself enough time to gather my wits and really search my soul -- I rarely had the time available. Now I have no choice.

And now that I have had success at keeping the depression at bay, the contrast is startling. It is as if I was deaf and blind and suddenly could see again -- and I have so much more clarity than when I was lost in the fog. Mind you, that is a curse as well as a blessing sometimes.

Mostly though, I realize how close I was to to never coming out of the coma, to losing everything, including my very soul. I realize that I want to live, and that truly living does not mean living just for now, but for eternity. And it has to start with this life and turning it over to God.

You see, GAL should be for heart, mind, body and soul.

Also, I have this faith now that tells me that even if I cannot save my W and my marriage, should W never give me the chance to prove my truth and veracity in this life and our paths continue down separate ways, then should the both of us be fortunate enough to meet again in the hereafter, she will then truly know my heart was indeed for real.

Whatever happens, I intend to continue to grow spiritually to the end of my days, regardless of the outcome. This is for my family as much as it is for me.
Posted By: Dr LOve Re: King of Pain - 09/13/07 04:03 AM
NOCO,

I just had to let you know I printed that up and it is now on my wall by my desk.

Husband
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain - 09/13/07 05:47 AM
Husband,

That's so nice of you. I am merely synthesizing/synergizing all the thoughts and readings I've had over many days -- from my Bible Studies, from the support group meetings, from counseling, from these forums. (It's funny how you begin to notice all these similar themes converging at about the same time frame -- all I've done is just to simply put them all together in summary.)

Now I guess I have enough intelligence to see the solution and to figure it out, but I can only hope that I have the necessary wisdom and the strength of character to actually persevere and carry out what I know to be right. Forgiveness is very hard.
Posted By: Sara Re: King of Pain - 09/13/07 05:53 AM
The quote about forgiveness is interesting. I think there is a two-fold meaning to forgiveness. One, letting go of the anger within yourself. That can be done unilaterally as you describe. And two, forgiveness that is meaningful to the offender. I don't think that side of forgiveness can be fully achieved unless the offender either wants or asks for your forgiveness. Too often the LBS is saying "I have forgiven you" to a WAS has no interest in the forgiveness. To that WAS the forgiveness is just another unwanted gift from the LBS. It will not be of value to the WAS until that he/she feels contrition and wants forgiveness.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain - 09/13/07 06:03 AM
Sara,

I think you've struck the nail on the head. That second level of forgiveness, the kind that should be to help free the offender from his own burdens, is only possible when that offender is truly repentant. If the injured party grants forgiveness before the offender repents, then it might be seen rather as enablement of the offense. Contrition is the key.
Posted By: Sara Re: King of Pain - 09/13/07 06:06 AM
Yes, perfect wording. That is exactly what I meant.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain - 09/13/07 06:33 AM
Late Monday night, I wrote a letter to my W telling her that I forgive her. I worded it to make it perfectly clear that I was forgiving the transgressions but not condoning them, and that I would struggle to continue to forgive her for the continuing injury she is doing to myself, our M and our children.

I even went so far as to say that I forgive the OM, my MIL and all of W's friends and coworkers who have been enabling W's behavior.

I expressed a lot of the sentiments about forgiveness that I have posted here in these forums as well.

Now, I wrote this letter and have filed it away on my computer. It satisfies the first level of forgiveness, because it represents a vow I am making between me and God. The reason I have not yet given the letter to my W, and the reason I am not yet prepared to do so, is because W is far from being repentant of what she has done and is doing. I do not want her to think I am supporting her ongoing behavior -- i.e., being an enabler.

Thanks for bringing up such a good point.
Posted By: LL44 Re: King of Pain - 09/13/07 01:57 PM
That was a hard letter to write.

And I think just like the apologies I have offered to H about my part in this rocky stage of our marriage are not believed, I totally agree about the forgiveness thing as well.

Just the other night, H said "Why bother trying to trust me, you'll never trust me again". That statement says a lot. He isn't even ready to be trusted.
Posted By: Sara Re: King of Pain - 09/13/07 02:11 PM
That's true, LWB. Trust can be rebuilt. But it takes 2 people, one to trust, and one to be trustworthy. Otherwise it's just like Charlie Brown trying to kick the football.
Posted By: LL44 Re: King of Pain - 09/13/07 02:40 PM
Sara, I agree. I think the same thing, like why should I try trusting him, when he is still doing things behind my back. It shows his lack of respect for me, knowing these things, how much they hurt, and still doing them.

Sorry to hijack.
Posted By: Kali Re: King of Pain - 09/13/07 03:12 PM
lwb because with our WAS's their feelings, needs, desires trump ours. Plain and simple my H talks about how he needs to be happy, he was unhappy, blah, blah, blah. Well what about the LBS? We are not granted that same right?
Posted By: runningoutoftime Re: King of Pain - 09/13/07 05:09 PM
Cali,

It's not a person that "makes" you happy. Happiness is something you have to find and build in yourself. Relying on someone else for happiness is a big burden, it makes happiness completely conditional. That's very unhealthy.

So obviously the WAS is seeking happiness in an unhealthy manner through reliance on the OP. When you consider the dynamics, the chance of that bubble eventually bursting is pretty high. No one can or should be completely responsible for another's happiness. That's unrealistic. The LBS who had been relying on their spouse for happiness actually has a better chance of becoming healthier and truly happier because they are now forced to find happiness elsewhere. Some will turn to drugs, drinking, replacing spouse with someone else (or plural!!!)... while others will look inside (like with DBing).

It's just like Blues here is saying. He feels like he's coming out of a fog. I think he's finding himself and happiness inside. I think no matter where his life goes he is going to be a little (or a lot) better for this experience.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain - 09/13/07 06:17 PM
Originally Posted By: Sara
That's true, LWB. Trust can be rebuilt. But it takes 2 people, one to trust, and one to be trustworthy. Otherwise it's just like Charlie Brown trying to kick the football.


Gosh, so that's why I've been feeling like such a blockhead.

;\)
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain - 09/13/07 06:19 PM
Originally Posted By: lwb
Sorry to hijack.


Hijack away, lwb -- it's all in context. Mi casa es su casa.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain - 09/13/07 06:23 PM
Originally Posted By: LeftInCali
Well what about the LBS? We are not granted that same right?


From what I gather from my W, I am not supposed to recover from this. She expected me to just wallow in my depression and die a broken man if need be.

Tough cookies for her if I have decided not to go along with her plan.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain - 09/13/07 06:58 PM
Originally Posted By: runningoutoftime
It's not a person that "makes" you happy. Happiness is something you have to find and build in yourself. Relying on someone else for happiness is a big burden, it makes happiness completely conditional. That's very unhealthy.


I couldn't agree more, Root.

I've tried to explain this to the W but she resists the thought. She has said she grew weary trying to do "everything" to make me happy, but I am just too pessimistic, moody and dark a person. She says she tried "everything", beating herself bloody on my "cave", to get me to come out. She says that as my W she should be able to make me happy ... if I really loved her.

Translation: She should have the power over me to be able to control my emotions and my overall mood. So she rationalizes her failure to do so as proof that I had stopped loving her.

At the same time she feels that I did not love her because I did not make her happy in return. (And I would guess that being able to control my behavior is what would bring her the happiness and security she desires in a relationship.)

I have tried to explain to her that no one really has the power to make someone else happy. Your children, your spouse, your family, friends, neighbors, they have but a contributory effect on one's happiness -- but ultimately you have to decide to be happy. The keys to our own happiness are in our own hands (I had just misplaced mine for a long time. \:\) )

Ultimately, though, the only one whose hands you can truly trust those keys in is God.
Posted By: Kali Re: King of Pain - 09/13/07 07:39 PM
Originally Posted By: runningoutoftime
Cali,

It's not a person that "makes" you happy. Happiness is something you have to find and build in yourself. Relying on someone else for happiness is a big burden, it makes happiness completely conditional. That's very unhealthy.



ROOT I completely agree. That is something I am figuring out slowly. I was just saying this is my H's point. I don't think it has anything to do with any "one" making us happy, it is just frustrating that my H is in such a fog that he thinks his feelings and desire for happiness trumps mine. I know he is not what makes me happy, and actually while I was out running errands today, H and the OW crossed my mind and I thought to myself 'wow it is pretty sad that my H had to find someone to try to make himself happy, yet i am able to find happiness within myself'.

so i guess that i what you are saying, and that is what i have been learning. \:\)
Posted By: Kali Re: King of Pain - 09/13/07 07:40 PM
Originally Posted By: NoCodeBlues
Originally Posted By: LeftInCali
Well what about the LBS? We are not granted that same right?


From what I gather from my W, I am not supposed to recover from this. She expected me to just wallow in my depression and die a broken man if need be.

Tough cookies for her if I have decided not to go along with her plan.


Actually my H told me the opposite, he thought I would not be sad, I would be happy to see him gone. That I was such a 'bit$h' for so long and apparently so cold hearted that I would just let him walk out and go on my merry way.
Posted By: Kali Re: King of Pain - 09/13/07 07:43 PM
Originally Posted By: NoCodeBlues


I have tried to explain to her that no one really has the power to make someone else happy. Your children, your spouse, your family, friends, neighbors, they have but a contributory effect on one's happiness -- but ultimately you have to decide to be happy. The keys to our own happiness are in our own hands (I had just misplaced mine for a long time. \:\) )



The point is, there is no explaining anything to the WAS. So like ROOT was saying elsewhere, just validate her thoughts and feelings, no matter how crazy they are. Then she can stop looking at you like you are crazy and start having to think for real, stop thinking of justifications. Right now she is justifying, and trying to convince her of anything other then what she is telling you, herself, and anyone else who will listen is of no use. It is all cheeseless tunnels.
Posted By: lester Re: King of Pain - 09/13/07 08:58 PM
absolutely. Yes, arguing with them shows you don't see their point of view and makes them want to dig in deeper. Keep up the good DB fight everyone. DB is for me.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain - 09/13/07 09:15 PM
Originally Posted By: LeftInCali
It is all cheeseless tunnels.


Ain't that the truth! I finally realized -- and continue to rediscover, unfortunately -- that I have been wasting my breath with her (and here I thought I was the stubborn one in this R.)


I appreciate the insight, Cali. I just have to find the strength of character to bite my tongue whenever her alien spew comes out -- it is not easy for me, since I have this strong, natural urge to correct falsehoods and misconceptions when I hear them. If I can somehow steer clear of R talks, I'll be fine. Forgiving her (at least within my own mind) is supposed to help.
Posted By: LL44 Re: King of Pain - 09/13/07 10:25 PM
LOL at blockhead!! I call myself schmuck from time to time. \:\)
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain - 09/14/07 04:24 AM
Oh, brother. I wish I could really take my own advice. I wish I had the wisdom and fortitude to be able actualize what I know to be the wise and (as Confucious would say) honorable path.

<journaling>
I blew it again this evening with the W.

She had left me another nasty-gram in my voicemail, complaining about our joint bank account. I called her back to find out what had riled her up. Last week I opened a personal checking account and told her about it. She had already opened a personal bank account for herself back in July. And I decided to open one for myself as a protective measure. I intend to have most of my paycheck direct-deposited to the personal account, and have only part of it drawn into the joint account to cover child support.

Today she got a letter from the bank saying the balance had fallen too low and triggered the overdraft protection. She launched into me saying I was irresponsible for taking all of the money out of the joint account and putting it into my personal account. I explained to her that I did not take all of the money out of the joint account, but only half. What was left should have been more than enough to cover any outstanding payments made from that account, but it did not. I apologized to her for the mistake -- and I refrained from telling her that only I have been contributing to this account ever since she opened her own account.

She got snippy with me and she asked why I opened a separate account instead of using the joint account. In reply, I asked her, "Why did you open your own separate account?" She said, "Because I can't trust you...", then that's where she caught herself. I continued saying, "And you think I am the one who's been acting the most untrustworthy of late?"

She then brought up the SA (separation agreement) again, saying she thought I should sign it if I wanted to guarantee her behavior. If I sign the SA then I could be assured that I would be protected legally.

I have ignored her suggestions to sign the SA, especially as she currently has them written. I am trying to avoid the issue as much as possible. I told her I appreciated her concerns for my legal standing (yeah, right), but I just don't agree with the terms. She asked whether I disagreed with the divying of the liabilities. I said no, but I don't need to sign a piece of paper to honor our agreement, specially when the other terms were not so agreeable.

She then asked whether I did not want to have a legal gauarantee to child visitation (by signing her SA). That's when I started to lose my cool. I asked her, "Are you implying that you intend to not honor our verbal agreement?!"

Let me tell you, from there the conversation spiralled out of control very quickly. She threatened to withhold my rights to have visititaion with my S's, let alone joint custody, if I didn't go along with her plans. And we ended up letting loose on each other all over again. We argued over the R and the failures each of us made to it. We argued about the history revisions, we accused each other of being delusional, and I said far too many anti-DB remarks.

It got very heated, but at one point I just stopped suddenly and said, "You know what? Why don't we just stop arguing. I don't ike getting mad, and I don't like making you mad. It does neither of us any good."

I then cooled down very quickly, which is pretty amazing for me. W was still trying to argue, saying stuff like my anger is who I am, and I need to stop being who I am not. I calmly told her, "Yes, for many years now I have been very angry, and for that I apologize. I am trying to change that. Too often you thought you needed to "fix' my anger, but all you did in so doing was make yourself the source of that anger."

From that point we had a tense but less antagonistic conversation. We still were in disagreement, but for the first time I was really better able to reign in my volatile anger. I think it surprised her a little how quickly I got us back under control.

Nevertheless, the damage was done. Whatever positives might have come out of my success in calming the situation down midstream are going to be ignored and forgotten in the future, and all W will remember are the negatives, that we had another fight.
Posted By: LL44 Re: King of Pain - 09/14/07 05:00 AM
Nocode,

Aaaah yes, this week I have lost it as well, and definately slid us backwards a bit. Its hard to do a calm battle with our spouses, because they are looking for a fight, pushing our buttons, wanting to make us the bad guy, wanting us to do those things we always do. So they can say "See, this is why we are in trouble.". I think your W is angry because you *have* changed your behavior (calming down) and she is confused by it. Confusion is good, they just don't know what to do with it, so they lash out.

I am sad to see your kids brought into the fight. Nobody should use their kids as leverage, that's just so wrong in so many ways. Even my crazy punk H realized that awhile back, and since then we can remain calm when discussing possible separation. So far.

I am so sorry!!!!

I have no advice, but to just continue on, head held high and know that yes, the fight happened, but you stopped it by calming down, and that's a big improvement.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain - 09/14/07 04:51 PM
Thanks, Lwb.

I just wish I could have held onto my calm a lot sooner in the conversation. I know the only thing W will remember is how I blew up.

Hey, you hang in there too. I wish I were half as calm and collected as you were in that latest confrontation with your H.

Nobody said this was going to be easy.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain - 09/14/07 04:53 PM
<journaling>

I have been reflecting on that rather ugly conversation with W yesterday.

W does not view my handling of S6's sickness very positively at all. She feels I was being stupid and arrogant in making decisions about S6's health without consulting with her. The fact that I did not call her until much later (this all happened before 6:30 in the early morning, BTW) she finds upsetting. If I felt it serious enough to go to the store for S6's stomach, then I should have gone to the Emergency Room instead, otherwise I should have stayed put and called her. She feels that I was negligent (once again) and that this represents yet more irresponsible behavior on my part, such that she questions whether I should be allowed to have any role in our S's lives. I apologized and admitted that it was a mistake to try to handle it all on my own before I notified her, and that was just a an error in judgment on my part. To be honest, she had neglected to call her own sons, as promised, the evening before, so I was indeed a bit upset with her already and thought if she did not care enough to call her sons the evening before, then she was too uninvolved with us to be concerned with S6's condition the following morning. Admittedly, I realize that maybe I was subconsciously punishing her for her callous behavior the night before. It is a mistake I should have not made.

She still insists that her relationship with OM did not occur ( implying it would not have happened otherwise) until I killed her love for her. I get the feeling from W that her obstinate (semi-admitted) lack of forgiveness means she is unlikely to ever recognize the error in her judgment.

The spew about the bank accounts reflects her lack of respect for me and her belief that I am incompetent and irresponsible. She conveniently forgets that for many years before we married and for the first few years of the marriage, I managed all of the bills and finances all by myself, just fine. Yet she treats me now like I'm an idiot.

Despite the painful backslide with the W yesterday, I did manage to glean a few tidbits of information that W did not realize she was inadvertently communicating to me. With her losing her own cool, she made some statements that allow one to really read between the lines.

She expressed a great amount of disappointment in my behavior since the separation. She said that all these activities I keep trying to participate in and stay so busy in (my GAL activities) were just not "me". She said I was being so very selfish in only thinking about myself all the time. She also feels that this is just some ploy on my part, that these are all activities just to "get her attention", and that annoys her greatly, especially (I noted) the Country Western Dancing. She said that the dancing is just not who I am. She expressed disdain for the entertainment and dance hall complex where I take these lessons, that it was not a very admirable place to be (she hates smoking and drinking -- habits I gave up a long, long time ago, BTW) and the only reason she had ever gone herself was to be with her girlfriends. She said she wouldn't choose to go there herself otherwise, and could not understand why I have now decided to regularly go there myself.

She also said all this effort and expense (bought a new four-person tent) to get back into camping was foolish and another attempt to get her attention. Previously, she had said it was a great idea for me and the S's, but now she feels it is something I am doing more for myself than for them. She said that despite my claims to be trying to change myself, she believes I am still being my old selfish self and doing these things for no one else but me. And she says that it just convinces her more that I can never really change.

I am a bit torn by her opinion as expressed concerning my GAL. Okay, she apparently is indeed noticing, despite my going (mostly) dark. I guess that is good. But is it backfiring?

I now know she is definitely mining S6 for information about me and what I do. S6, bless his heart, is very candid and the last person you would ever tell a secret to, because he can't help but say something without even being asked. It doesn't take much to get him to "sing", as he volunteers what he hears automatically -- and he hears just about everything, he is so perceptive. Early on W accused me with actively, shaking S6 down for information about OM, but I had done no such thing. S6 began spontaneously talking about OM's 15-year old son as an older brother. So when I confronted W with that later, she threatened me to never again use our son to spy on her. So, I assured her I wouldn't -- and I have even, since then, stopped S6 from saying too much in front of me at times. Clearly though, she has created a double standard, and is willing to use any information she gets from S6 against me. When I still lived in our house, before the separation, the MIL was W's spy and propaganda minister. (The brutal character assassination by the MIL is going to be one of the most difficult things I would ever try to forgive. I am not ready for that yet.)

So, the GAL can indeed be noticed by a separated spouse.

Observation: W is really bothered by the thought of me carousing and dancing in public in a bar/nightclub setting. Admittedly, I have been coming to the conclusion that it really is not my cup of tea when stacked against all the other claims on my time and energies. And there are other GAL activities that will likely bear better fruit. But now I am beginning to think, if this is really having an effect on W, maybe I should continue to pursue this? The devilsh side of me thinks, hey, if this gets her gall, then by all means go ahead with it. But I want to do these things for me, not her. I also don't want to do things, or not do things, that might only confirm her stereotyping/pigeon-holing of me either.

W also expressed disappointment that I was pursuing all these "distractions" and not making wise use of this newfound personal time to utilize my "talents" (I like to paint/illustrate and I like to write fiction.) I am a bit surprised that someone who claims to have lost any love for me is so concerned about my well being all of a sudden. It has been a long time now since she was ever concerned with what I want to do with my own life. Since the A started, maybe for some time before, she had pretty much given me up for dead, and could have cared less whether I was wasting my life or not. I don't get it. But then we cannot trust anything the WAS says now, can we?

How much of this is genuine and how much of this is pure manipulation, I don't know.
Posted By: lester Re: King of Pain - 09/14/07 08:27 PM
NCB,

On reading your post there is a couple that strike me. First, it seems that your W is pumping your son for info. While this is a sign she's curious I must warn that involving your children in ANY way in your struggles is not good. Being a child of divorced parents (coincidently with my children being about the same age I was when they did :(( ) this will make adjustment for the children very hard. I know you may have little influence over her actions but PLEASE check yourself here.

You didn't specifically say that you were telling your wife about your GALing activities so maybe I'm misspeaking. But if you are separated now then there's no point mentioning where you go... if she finds out then so be it. And since GALing is for you it doesn't really matter that she gets upset -- it shows she still cares (seems crazy given the situation, I know). But definately keep doing what you're doing, it sounds like you're on track. It's your life and whether you were a dancer before or not if you like it -- keep it up. My wife has the same complaints, "You never did that in the 10 years I've known you." To quit your activities now would confirm her suspicions that you are just trying to get her attention.

I hope this makes sense... I'm working on being coherent today \:\)
Posted By: LL44 Re: King of Pain - 09/15/07 02:46 AM
"She still insists that her relationship with OM did not occur ( implying it would not have happened otherwise) until I killed her love for her. I get the feeling from W that her obstinate (semi-admitted) lack of forgiveness means she is unlikely to ever recognize the error in her judgment."

Replace "she" with "he", and I could have written your post. I am so sorry. Its awful to feel so unloved. Hurts so much.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain - 09/15/07 04:20 AM
Very lucid, lester.

Yes, the use of our S as a source of information is a troublng matter. S6 is always a fountain of information at times, and he can't help but blurp something out, even if you explicitly tell him not to tell anyone (he has spoiled the surprise for numerous birthdays and other occasions.) W warned me against trying to pump S6 for information on her and her activities (In my one case, I couldn't help it if he spontaneously volunteered the info), but she doesn't intend to follow her own advice, apparently.

I can only control myself, so what she does is out of my hands. I agree it is bad for our S's to intentially be used in this way.

I have not shared details about my GAL with the W, but when she asks I can be coy with her only so far. I'm not going to lie to her, so if she asks me point blank I will tell her just enough. Unfortunately she is getting details from S6. And I have found that she has opened my mail that arrives at the house -- she can see information on my purchases and where I made them -- so the cover charges for taking the dance lessons are there and so too are the camping supplies, etc. So maybe that's part of the reason she doesn't like my opening a separate checking account -- she won't be able to track what I do.

And yes, she said the exact same thing about the dance lessons, "The whole time we've been married you have never shown any interest in learning to dance. And you certainly didn't think about taking me out dancing in all that time either. Why now?"
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain - 09/15/07 04:50 PM
I picked up our sons yesterday as usual for my weekend custody. The W had some mail for me, including some of my bills/statements she went ahead and opened, again (If she's going to make it a habit to be so nosy, then I have got to get the addresses changed!)

She had a check made out to me from her new personal account. I had mentioned to her previously that her mother, the MIL, should now pay rent for staying in our home. So this was a check for 500 dollars to pay me half of the rental (part of this is to help cover the cost of the house note I have taken over for her and the S's, and part of childcare).

Then W asked me if I would charge my own mother were she to have come to live with me. Not fully understanding what she meant, I asked her to explain. W asked would I charge my mother this much to rent out our spare bedroom. I said that if I were to ask my mother to come live with me, I most likely would not ask her to pay part of the rent, but she would insist anyway. And as for the amount, I asked her was she going to question the amount or whether I should be charging MIL at all to live under our roof.
W said that it was quite "cold" of me to want to charge her mother, MIL, rent when I wouldn't do so for my own mother.
Me: "How so?"
W: "Because she takes care of our 2 S's five days a week. She takes S6 to the bus stop, and drops S2 off at Preschool. Then she's there for them when they get home and feeds them dinner before I get there when I'm running late."
Me: "You forget. That was your job. If you bring in your mother to help you out during the time you have custody with the boys, then that's your choice, not mine. Frankly, if you wanted to hire a nanny, that would be your prerogative too, but I take care of the boys the entire time they're in my custody, without pawnimg them off onto someone else -- and I prefer it that way."
W: <pause> "Yeah, you're right. She's there to benefit me and not you, so I guess it's fair."
Me: "Are you wanting to negotiate what she the rental fee should be? You're the one who suggested five hundred. Is that still sound?"
W: "Yes, I guess so. It's just that you are being you're typical cold self."

Am I wrong in this, folks?

I feel like the MIL has been taking advantage of me and my family and has, in addition, enabled and encouraged my W to pursue this separation and D. I feel she is a negative influence on my S's (she had the audacity to tell S6 that because I no longer live in that home, that it was no longer my house anymore) and a toxic personality all around. I do not appove of her raising my S's. And I know she condones (and encourages) W's relationship with the OM. I have shown her nothing but kindness and pity for her troubles in life, and yet she has done nothing but try to undermine my position in my own family.

On top of all that, just the fact MIL is there means W is not feeling the full effects and consequences of our separation as she should.

I know I am likely putting W in the position of defending MIL, but I don't think I should be footing the bill for someone to help betray me and destroy my family. Forgiveness is one thing, but stupidity is another.
Posted By: LL44 Re: King of Pain - 09/15/07 08:17 PM
She had to get that last zinger in. I know that all too well. That is fair of you. You aren't together at the moment. What you were defending makes total sense to me, but then again, we ARE the sane half, aren't we?
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain - 09/15/07 09:29 PM
Thanks, Lwb, for the support.

I still can't get over how I am the one who's feeling guilty for standing up for myself. If I dare to see to my own interests, I am the one who's being selfish.

(Nevermind that I am not the one who wanted this insane situation in the first place.)
Posted By: LL44 Re: King of Pain - 09/16/07 12:01 AM
I hear ya mister.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain - 09/19/07 01:30 AM
<journaling>

Went to another DivorceCare meeting last night -- I am surprised each time how much I am getting out of a program that has "divorce" in the title. This session was on Reconciliation, and it's not exactly what we first think of. There are three levels of Reconciliation: (1) Basic Civility (2) Friendship and (3), the one we think of most, Restoration of the Marital Relationship.

I can only conclude that right now W and I are far from even a Level 1 Reconciliation. We talk about it, and recognize it as a necessary goal to being able to raise our S's. But there's still a lot of pent up hostility between us too -- and as long as W insists on seeing me as an enemy to her "happiness" and her warped solution to achieve it (i.e., the A), then it won't happen.

I am detaching and GAL'ing. I am also making a fundamental shift in my perspective on life, to focus more on the positive in my mind, and train myself to maintain a PMA.

This may be considered pursuing, a backslide, but I sent W an email last night just to suggest she seek out another church that is also using DivorceCare as their program (there are several in our area), as I really think she would get a lot out of it herself, regardless of what direction our marriage goes.

Other than that, I've been working my butt off again. Got about two hours sleep last night, even after having had so little sleep in the evenings prior. We lost yet another person in our department yesterday; the strain on everyone is palpable. I realize this might very well be the sign of the rats leaving the sinking ship. This could be serious and consequential on so many levels.

So, having caught up on all my reading assignments for tomorrow's Bible Studies meeting, I am very, very sleepy and ready to turn in.

Hope everyone is having better progress today.
Posted By: LL44 Re: King of Pain - 09/19/07 01:33 AM
Wow, that sounded like a really helpful meeting! I would put H and I in between Level 1 and 2. I am sorry you are so tired, hope you get some good rest.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain - 09/19/07 01:40 AM
Thanks, lwb. You keep up the great work -- it's really encouraging seeing how well you're handling yourself in this.

God bless.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain - 09/19/07 03:52 PM
I just set up an appointment for Monday... with a L -- it's via a referral from my EAP, under which the first 30-minute session is no charge. I have no intention of pursuing any action at this time. I just need to know what my legal standing is in this separation and what might eventually lead into a D.

If W knew, she'd immediately think the worse. I really don't want to do this, or to have to do this. But even my MC has said it is a good idea in my case. W's behavior is very threatening right now (the continual insistence on the SA, the threats to my right to see my kids, the actions in bad faith regarding the MC, etc.), and while I really hope this might just be a passing phase, I have to think about protecting myself -- for (oddly enough) both our sakes and that of our children.

This is yet another event in my life that I never would have thought would ever have come to pass.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain - 09/20/07 05:47 PM
<journaling>

Last evening, I stopped by the house to pick up some important mail sent there by the bank (I know I gave them the new address; grrrrr) on my way to my Bible Studies class. W was not there yet, but MIL was there with my 2 S's. I visited with the boys for a little while and then proceeded to leave for the church. S6 complained sadly about me having to leave while S2 started crying out loud, saying "No, no, Daddy."

This has been happening a lot, the boys getting upset at my leaving the house again. And it really tears at me every time. Oh, I manage to put on an upbeat, cheerful attitude and tell them I will see them real soon. I say my goodbyes and good nights with as much peace and calm as I can muster. But inside I am dieing, as usual, trying to keep up this facade, supposedly for the sake of our S's, but more for W so she feels less guilt.

The MIL is there the whole time I'm trying to ease myself out of the premises saying banal crap like, "Oh, he'll be just fine two minutes after you're gone." referring to S2. "He does this all the time. S2 doesn't like to see anyone leave; he does it for everyone." MIL has used words to this effect for several visits now.

It struck me that these are words very similar to what W has been using of late. It is painfully obvious they've been coaching one another (I'm not sure which of them is the ring leader in this) on how to downplay these emotional outcrys from my S's.

God help me, I am really beginning to downright despise my MIL. And as this progresses, I am feeling less and less positively for W too. But then, that's probably their objective.
Posted By: LL44 Re: King of Pain - 09/21/07 12:27 AM
Maybe those negative feelings will help you detach?

It sounds like MIL and W are reading the same code book, the "your kid isn't upset about his parents, he is just a normal kid". UGH!! I can see why you are feeling so negative towards them, that's for sure.

I know all about the dying inside, happy outside thing. It kills me too, but we do it for them.

Hang in there!!! \:\(
Posted By: fightingirish Re: King of Pain - 09/21/07 01:45 AM
ahhhh MIL, thank goodness I don't have to deal with mine.. my H doesn't speak to his mother.. she' s a very lost soul..

Anyways, Family has a way of saying the wrong thing at the wrong time. I understand completley why you are feeling this way.. don't worry, its understandable.
I just hope that your W comes to her senses and doesn't let her
mother get in the middle.

take care..

TAL
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain - 09/21/07 04:23 AM
Thanks for the support and encouragement, LWB and TAL.

My MIL is a three-time champion WAW-MLC, and I think she now sees it as her current mission in life to "help" her daughter (my W) make it into the 2008 Divorce Olympics.

Seriously, I really feel sorry for MIL's 2cnd H -- the poor man literally died of a broken heart just two years later after she ran off with H #3 (okay, so I hear he took up drinking again and that was the contributing factor, but he was way too young to go when he did (late 50's)).

To see my W now, after what she said years ago when she and I were dating, just baffles me. W had made me promise her that I would never let her become like her mother. I fear I have really failed her in that.
Posted By: LL44 Re: King of Pain - 09/21/07 04:32 AM
Oh geesh, that's all your W needs in her corner, someone to 'feed' her selfishness. No wonder you harbor bitterness towards MIL. Poor H #2. WOW. She's a maneater. \:\(
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain - 09/21/07 04:42 AM
I really used to pity my MIL (still do). Granted, a lot of the misery she's had in her life is because of her own poor choices in life, H #3 turned out to be pretty abusive, which no one should have to suffer. But I resent her attempts to pass on her arrogant lack of judgement and toxic tendencies to my W.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain - 09/21/07 02:30 PM
I wrote another letter to W (one I have no intention of giving her, but wrote it as a form of catharsis.) I need to post some of these here for journaling purposes. Here's today's letter:

Quote:
W,

I am writing this letter after more reflection on the problems in our marriage. It has now been almost 3 months since we separated, and while it was not by my choice, it has given me a lot of free time to read, talk to others and to think very heavily about our situation.

I want you to know that I feel I am now on the right path in life, or at the very least that I recognize that is a far better path than the one we were on up until you "dropped the bomb" on me in June. I am trying to examine what happened to us and to truly learn from my mistakes. (And they were grave mistakes indeed.) I am working to fix those flaws in me that allowed this to happen. I have made fundamental changes to the way I approach life now, such that I will be more in touch with my inner self more and in so doing avoid the severe depression that has cost me/us so much. I have reordered the priorities of my life to what is spiritually sound and healthy. I now place my relationship with God above everything and then my family.

This is still a journey, and I have not fully found the person I am meant to be. But I feel confident that with God's help I will continue to grow.

You continue to take credit for this change in me. You continue to attribute my awakening to your actions to end our marriage, and by extension to your leaving me for someone else. Forgive me for saying this, but that is utter B-S. Your actions certainly helped to precipitate my coming out of my depressive fog, but I resent the fact that you are trying to justify your infidelity as something that might have "helped" me come to my senses. Thanks, but no thanks. I don't need such "help".

Furthermore, you want to take credit for something that I beleive belongs entirely to God. God is the one who woke me up, not you. Your actions and your sins are your own. God did not want you to break your vows and to cast your husband aside for another man. But because he has given us free will, he did not stop you. What He did do was to use your transgressions to help splash cold water on me. It is just like what God did with the sin of David and Bathsheba; despite their sinful act for which God was extremely upset with David, God brought forth Solomon as something good from that union. (Of course the story goes on to say that the seeds from that sin still took root and David ended up continually paying for it, especially with his son Absalom.)

So I thank God for using your unwise choices as a means to wake me up from that which was killing my soul.

You know what though? There's more. You compounded the problem in running away from yourself and your marriage by allowing yourself to get emotionally involved with another man. You see, if we are to take your word that you had intended to leave me anyway, then you would have at least been on your own voyage of self-discovery. You would have continued to find out who you are and who you are becoming. Thus the time apart from me in our separation would have truly benefitted you and helped promote your personal growth. Even if it meant you were to grow and become someone to whom marriage to me was still over, I could more easily accept that.

But the minute you entered into a new relationship, you froze your growing process. You stopped looking at yourself to see what needed to be fixed and improved upon. You stopped looking at your own contribution to the destruction of our marriage and thus stopped trying to learn from it. No, now you have someone else to tell you everything you want to hear. Someone to say you are perfect and wonderful just as you are this very moment, frozen in the middle of your development. So now you see no reason to change, to grow, to learn. No, on the contrary, someone else validates you just as you are: incomplete.

So, as it turns out, our separation has had no positive benefit for you ...other than getting me out of your hair so you can continue to have your affair. And you no longer recognize your half of the responsibility in the failure of our marriage -- in your eyes, it's all my problem now. While I would gladly take all of the blame for this if it would truly help you, I know it would not, in fact it would only harm you more.

That is why, until you can truly accept and own your failings, you are doomed to make the same mistakes over and over.

Our old marriage is over. Our old relationship is gone. We will never get that back. But given how it devolved, and how much pain we caused each other at its end, it is just as well. I don't want to go back. At the most, I would want the two of us to start over. To pick up where we were before our old marriage and start afresh with a new relationship together. To promise to continue to grow along parallel tracks, in respect and love for each other.

But while you are frozen in amber by this relationship with this other person, I feel that you have lost your momentum and the drive to move forward, and I am leaving you behind. All I see is stagnation for you, pulled over on the shoulder of this road of life. All I see is repetition of old habits, old mistakes, including mistakes by you that echo those made by others in your family. That's the view I see in my rear view mirror. And I am so very sorry for you.

I continue to pray for you every day, often several times a day. I pray to God that you now wake from your own fog.


Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain - 09/22/07 06:52 PM
<journaling>

I just found out from my W's sister that their cousin's D6 (that would make her W's 2cnd cousin), who we have known to have had mild seizures and other psychoneurological difficulties since at least 2 years of age, has been recently diagnosed with NLD/NVLD (non-verbal learning disability) and ADHD.

The curious thing about this new fact coming to light is that NLD is very closely related to Asperger's Syndrome (AS). And there happens to be zero blood relations between this poor little girl, W's second cousin, and myself. Thus if one is so certain (like my WAW) about finding a hereditary link for my S6's AS, they need not look much further than W's own family. (Not to say that AS might not be in my family too, but if W was trying to pin S6's condition solely on me, she's sadly mistaken.)

If W persists in pushing me into getting screened (I am on a waiting list, and that takes time) I may lose my cool and tell her what for. So far, in recent weeks, she's eased off -- hmmmm, I wonder why.
Posted By: JoieDeVivre Re: King of Pain - 09/22/07 07:12 PM
Originally Posted By: NoCodeBlues

But while you are frozen in amber by this relationship with this other person, I feel that you have lost your momentum and the drive to move forward, and I am leaving you behind. All I see is stagnation for you, pulled over on the shoulder of this road of life. All I see is repetition of old habits, old mistakes, including mistakes by you that echo those made by others in your family. That's the view I see in my rear view mirror. And I am so very sorry for you.


NoCodeBlues,
You poured your heart and soul into this. I completely relate to this paragraph especially. That's pretty much how I feel about my H right now. And I feel really sorry for him, too.

It's their loss, isn't it?

Keep on looking ahead, and not back.
Posted By: Kali Re: King of Pain - 09/22/07 07:37 PM
NoCode I have a HFA (high functioning autistic) son. Only recently diagnosed. Maybe your wife does not realize that they still dont know what causes Autism spectrum disorders and that it is now at a rate of 1 in 150 children and 1 in 90 boys. What would be the point of getting screened. Work on your sons recovery, and learn everything you can about Autism/Aspergers. A great site is http://www.autismspeaks.org/
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain - 09/23/07 01:38 AM
Joie, that's just it. For the sake of our family, we have to keep moving forward. For our children. For ourselves. For our extended families. For all our loved ones. Even for our spouses.
Posted By: LL44 Re: King of Pain - 09/23/07 01:48 AM
nocode, yes yes yes!!!

I feel now I am working for this marriage ONLY for the kids. If we keep going and work it out, I can only pray that my love, real love, comes back for H.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain - 09/23/07 02:17 AM
Thanks, Kali.

S6 was diagnosed about three years ago with AS. W has been very much proactive in finding as much information as posssible on this disorder. She practically considers herself an authority on the subject when she talks to me. And I will give full credit to my W for seeing to it that S6 got the OT and other therapy that has helped him adjust.

The problem is that I was skeptical at first when W presented this to me as a possibility. She had already explored and ruled out so many other possibilities to explain S6's behavioral issues -- SID, ADHD, etc. So when she began to explore Aspergers I was wondering whether this was just another unconfirmed hypothesis. By the time we got a definitive diagnosis, there was already some tension between W and myself concerning her layman "diagnosis".

And though I have since come around to recognizing S6's AS since the official diagnosis, W continues to think of me as being in full denial. That has been the foundation for the friction between W and I concerning our approach to raising our sons.

Our marital realtionship failed for several reasons, not the least of which is that I became severely depressed and began to emotionally withdraw, for a whole host of reasons, but then it becomes a question of the chicken and the egg -- which trigggered the other? The depression or the marital failure?

W has been attempting to link my emotional withdrawal to our son's AS. She is making the case that I have and am the source of S6's AS. She wants to believe that I have a trace of AS or HFA that caused me to callously neglect her needs. For someone who likes to think of herself as very studious and able to educate herself on any number of medically-related subjects, she displays an utter ignorance of clinical depression. She either totally discounts or chooses to be ignorant of the effects of severe depession and the side effects of anitdepressants on one's behaviors. No, she has seized upon Asperger's as the answer to my withdrawal. And it certainly could have had nothing to do to her own actions, could it?

So that is why W is urging me to be screened. She knows full well that noone knows for absolute certain whether there's a hereditary link to AS or not. W is just trying to rationalize blaming me for S6's condition, and at the same time trying to absolve herself from the failure of our marriage.

Now that we know that two children in the same family have very similar disorders, and they're related on W's mother's side of the family, it represents a pretty rare circumstance. More importantly, now the odds of someone on my side of the family also having the same or similar condition just got a lot slimmer.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain - 09/23/07 02:24 AM
Yes, lwb.
And until (if) such time as they come to their senses, our spouses will not see it that way. My W chooses to see my moving forward as me merely being selfish -- her words.
Posted By: LL44 Re: King of Pain - 09/23/07 02:26 AM
Who's selfish???? YIKES!!!

That's like my H getting furious that I talked to OW's H, saying "How come you get to talk to him but I can't talk to her?" Um, yeah, because we didn't have sex.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain - 09/26/07 04:04 AM
<journaling>

On Sunday, I got a chance to talk to S6 while S2 was taking an afternoon nap. I set S6 down to do some of his homework while I began my own homework (reading assignment for my bible studies class). I know my W has been taking advantage of moments like this alone with S6 to shake him down for info on me and how I treat my S's. So, while I was careful not to use my son to pry out information about W's behaviors (that would be inappropriate and plain wrong, even if W may be doing the same), I did start asking S6 how he felt about the events going on in our lives. At first he gave a short little automatic reply typical of him, saying "fine." But surprisingly, he then backed up and elaborated further, correcting himself. He said, "Daddy, I don't like going back and forth between the house and the apartment. It's hard."
I was quite surprised at the sudden change in tone of my six year old; his candor and earnestness was as strong as I had ever heard from him. He said, "I really like the apartment -- it's got a swimming pool. But I don't like having to go back and forth."

Not knowing what to say, I tried to commiserate, "Yes, I know, S6. It's not easy on any of us. I really wish we didn't have to live apart like this. I did not want this to happen."

S6: "Mommy says its because you two always fight. And she did not want your fighting and yelling to hurt my ears."
Me: "Is that what Mommy has told you?"
S6: "Yes, she knows that your arguments hurt my ears, so that's why you live elsewhere."
Me: "Oh, Is that so? Well, your daddy did not want any of this to happen. It was not his idea. Mommy is just not happy anymore with Daddy, and that's the real reason Daddy has to live apart. Please don't ever think that I wanted any of this to happen."
S6: "I know."
Me: "Whatever happens, remember that your Daddy loves you and your little brother. Remember that Mommy loves you too."
Posted By: LL44 Re: King of Pain - 09/26/07 04:28 AM
Ok, my heart breaks for your son. And for you, being caught off guard, and then I would assume you got upset when your son reported what W had told him. I am so sorry. Your response sounds really good, I am proud of you. Are you planning on talking to W about it?
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain - 09/27/07 02:46 AM
Hello, lwb,

I heard you got brochitus -- I'm sorry to hear that. That's rough. I have had a bit of chest cold myself this week -- I really wanted to escape from work today to go rest, but my boss was really uptight about our lagging project schedules, and I not only worked with this hacking cough and low-grade temperature, but I had to work late again too. Both of my 2 S's have been sick over the last two weeks, first S6, then S2. S2 is only now getting back to normal -- he wasn't eating too well this past weekend when I had them; it really started to bother me. Fortunately, he's usually a pretty stout little fella', not fat but stocky, so he has enough baby fat to carry him through his temporary lack of hunger.

Am I going to talk to W about my convo with S6? Under normal circumstances, when W would be in her right mind, I wouldn't think twice about it. But W is so consumed with being "right" and in such utter denial, anything I say to her would have the opposite effect. Sometimes I just cannot believe this is the same person I married and lived with for 16 years.

Just tonight was a perfect example. We haven't been talking too much lately, mainly because I have refrained from volunteering any information that is not relevant to the upbringing of our sons. And I am desparately trying to stay away from R talks. She hasn't volunteered any info either.

Well, another tragic event is unfolding in my family's lives again (I am not sure how much more we can all take.) My brother's mother-in-law (my brother's W's mother) tried to commit suicide last week and they have been through a lot of turmoil in trying to get her looked after (she has a lot more severe psychological problems than they had thought.) I remembered how upset W was that I did not immediaely tell her about my own mother's apartment building burning down; so I mentioned about my SIL's mother to my W. Up until the bomb, my W and my brother's W were pretty good friends, but afterwards my W won't talk to my SIL anymore. But i thought W would still want to know about my SIL's serious situation.

I mentioned that SIL's mother is bipolar; W had to interject that SIL's mother was manic depressive.
Me: "Um, okay -- so she's bipolar and manic depressive; and..."
W: "No, they're the same thing."
Me: "What?"
W: "Manic Depression is the same thing as Bipolar Disorder."
Me: "No, wait. Bipolar Disorder is just an extreme form of Manic Depression, with wilder mood swings, isn't it?"
W: "No, they're the same thing. Hey, I should know -- I am a nurse."
Me: "And that means you know all about Psychology?"
W: "Oh, wait, I forgot -- you're God. You couldn't possibly be wrong, because you're always right!"
Me: "Me? No, I don't know about anything. Forget I said anything. I don't know why you find this silly point to be so important ."

Yes, I know. She baits me so easily. But it demonstrates that she wants so much to be able to prove something over me; for her to be proven right and me to be proven wrong. I should have just given her the point, and gone on. W managed to derail me from explaining the situation to her, so she could understand the pain her former friend, my SIL, is going through. But I guess the body-snatchers won't let their victims have nothing more than a passing fancy at their humanity.

I really worry for S6. S2 is still young, and there's still time for him to recover, assuming our family finds that miracle and puts itself back together. But now I see that S6 is starting to see the separation for what it really is. The bloom is off the rose. Now that Summer has drawn to a close, no longer does Daddy's apartment seem the amusement park it once did. No longer does the shifting from one domicile to another seem like a grand adventure. He's figuring out that Mommy's promises that things would be better is not quite so. I believe he's going to come to the conclusion that he would rather have both his parents available at any given time.

It's too bad that my naive, innocent little six year old, with his Asperger's Syndrome and his sensory problems, is closer to seeing reality than his supposedly adult mother.

I'll make this prediction: when S6 begins to see things as they really are -- Daddy's forced to be apart while Mommy works more and more hours and spends more of her dwindling free time with her "friend" -- he will begin acting out and maybe even outright complaining. And when W hears what her S says, she will blame every bit of it on me.

You know, I really believe I can forgive my W for the A and for the harsh treatment of me. But I am going to have a very difficult time forgiving her for what all this is doing to my sons.
Posted By: LL44 Re: King of Pain - 09/27/07 02:59 AM
NoCode, WOW, she knows how to bait you...and you know how to jump to the bait!! Isn't it awful, those vicious little cycles we all (as married people) have? Button pushing at its worst.....

S6...sigh....S6....I am so sorry. My D5 is actually almost 6, and I know she would see/be reading soooo much more into an actual separation if it happened. They are so much smarter than we realize. Your poor S. And yes, I totally agree, while I firmly believe that right now, I am ONLY working on this marriage because of the kids, I can also say if my H in any way fails our kids, that is unforgivable. Like you, I can find it somewhere to forgive (eventually) the wrongs against me, but never my kids.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain - 09/28/07 01:10 AM
Lwb,

Separation has been a blessing and a curse for me. I was never able to sleep in the same bed with my W after the bomb -- my insomnia was unbearable with W always sleeping on the very edge of the bed (I don't know how she could have done it -- she too couldn't have been getting any sleep.) Now I can.

I didn't eat hardly at all while under the same roof, now I eat enough just to sustain my current weight.

We don't get as many chances to argue now. And I have less of a chance of irritating her. I find my life a bit more peaceful. And I am not around to see her absense from our family or spending so much time with her "friend"/"friends". My sons don't get to see their mother regularly disrespect (I started to write "disembowel") their father.

But it also means, for me, that I don't get to see my children every day. I don't get to tuck them into bed in person every night, nor to greet them at sunrise. I get to expereience the loneliness that my W never really gets a taste of in this unbalanced equation.

I also don't get to counteract the negative propaganda that MIL and the "friends" put in W's ears. I am not there to defend myself from the constant character assasinations. Of course, she only hears what she wants to anyway.

It's a trade off.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain - 09/28/07 02:14 AM
<journaling>

Up until the last part of my conversation with S6, today would have been an okay day. But after discussing his day and wishing him a good night, S6 said goodnight to me in a way that sent icey cold shivers down my spine.

S6: "Nightey-night, chick-o-pee."
Me: " .... um ... I'm sorry, what did you say?"
S6: "I said, 'Night-night, chick-o-pee'."
Me: "Night-night, chick-o-pee?"
S6: "Yes."
Me: "Where did you hear that saying?"
S6: <something unintelligible>
Me: "Say again?"
S6: "I don't know. It's from a movie called 'Nell'."
Me: "A movie?"
S6: "With Liam Neeson in it. And that's one of the sayings in it."
Me: "You saw this movie?"
S6: "No. Mommy..."
Me: "Mommy saw this movie?"
S6: "Um, no, Mommy's friend saw it. And Mommy told me about the saying. There's a girl who says 'Ni, Ni, Chick-o-pee'."
Me: "Uh-huh. So, Mommy's friend saw the movie. I see."

Well we said our good-nights and then he handed the phone to his mother. I quickly told her good night and got off ASAP.

Folks, the significance of this phrase, "Ni', Ni', Chick-o-pee" (In the movie Nell, I believe the wording is "Chick-a-bee", not "Chic-o-pee") is that that was the "private" little salutation that the OM used with my W in their emails with each other.

I have heard my S2 use these same words a months ago with me as I was putting him to bed -- this was the two week period between the bomb and the separation (W was at work at that time, so I did not confront her), but I don't believe I have heard it since, ...at least not until tonight.

I can't tell you how violated I feel that my W is sharing with our 2 S's these love words between her and OM. Including my sons in their own private language. I can't describe just how inappropriate this is to me.

I am having a difficult time with this. My foolish W is one thing, but to start to include my S's to even the smallest degree in this illicit R is too much. It makes me ill to think about it, and angry too.

Someone restrain me!
Posted By: LL44 Re: King of Pain - 09/28/07 02:40 AM
I would be on FIRE!!!! Beyond fire, I can't explain it. That you haven't called her on it yet shows how much more restraint you have over me. Oh gosh, this is horrible, because like all of our spouses, your W sees nothing wrong with sharing this with the kids. Give it the 48 hour rule, then decide if/when/how you are going to approach her. I am so very sorry!
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain - 09/28/07 03:57 AM
I worry that I am over-reacting, but I can't help how his makes me feel.

When I got of the phone, I felt like getting in my car and driving straight down there, six miles, and confronting her. I want to tell her that in no uncertain terms will I tolerate any action that might be construed as replacing me in my S's lives. It's bad enough she is trying to rid me from her life -- but this is where I draw the line and she's been crossing it.

But then I remember how she is now, and that she is never going to see things from my perspective. No, she's going to make me out to be some irrational nutcase getting all blown out of sorts over some silly little saying she is sharing with our children. So, what? she'd say.

No, I need to pick my battles more wisely. This is not the hill I want to die on -- there's plenty more hills coming up that are more precious to hold. If this persists, though, I may have to say something sharp and to the point with W.
Posted By: LL44 Re: King of Pain - 09/28/07 04:30 AM
*I* don't think you are overreacting. However, I am 'normal', like you. LOL We can't think like us, we have to think like them, you know? And she would totally think you were overreacting, for sure. Don't they always?

Quote:
I want to tell her that in no uncertain terms will I tolerate any action that might be construed as replacing me in my S's lives. It's bad enough she is trying to rid me from her life -- but this is where I draw the line and she's been crossing it.


Keep that tucked away, I like how that's worded. Battle picking is good, and time will tell if this is a mountain or small hill.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain - 09/28/07 02:26 PM
Oh, Lord, please help me...

W has been very strident in getting me to clear my schedule this weekend so she can go to some event she describes as Nursing training/seminar this weekend. She asked me to postpone my Sunday session with my C and to keep the kids an extra evening on Sunday. I never mind getting my S's an extra day or night, so I agreed to do so.

Now I feel like I am playing the fool all over again.

I should have known better not to look; I know we're not supposed to snoop. I checked my W's old email address (I have the computer it used to be set up for) and saw a rejected email from yesterday she sent to OM. I would never have seen this email if it hadn't been for the fact that the mail server kicked it back for some reason.

But this is the kicker: The email to the OM is the MapQuest directions between an unknown address in our local area and a beach front hotel some 3 1/2 hours away. So I conclude that the first address is OM's apartment and they are planning a lovely little weekend away together at the beach -- her "Nursing seminar".

She now only sees me as her baby-sitter and bill-payer. I want to ask her does she even have a conscious anymore. How can she possibly sleep at night? How can she look at herself in the mirror? How can she face God anymore? Does she really pray anymore? Does she really even try to listen to what He has to say to her?

What is it that I have done that could so damage her moral compass? What on earth could have destroyed her moral footing like this?

I know. I know -- detach.

But even if I manage to fully detach and move on with my life, still I would worry for her mortal soul.

There goes my PMA for the week. All I can do is focus on my children. I must continue to focus on them and their needs. And seeing what this is doing to them is so very painful.
Posted By: LL44 Re: King of Pain - 09/29/07 01:28 AM
Quote:
She now only sees me as her baby-sitter and bill-payer. I want to ask her does she even have a conscious anymore. How can she possibly sleep at night? How can she look at herself in the mirror? How can she face God anymore? Does she really pray anymore? Does she really even try to listen to what He has to say to her?


Chane she/her to he/him and I could have written this. Oh and add that I feel 'cake eaten' too, because he is around me when he wants to be, and has the freedom to run when he is angry at me. Lovely. I sit here, with my sleeping kids, and H is out at bars. Yup, sucker.

I am so sorry you found that bit of information out. That is a PMA killer for sure. You are the rock, the better person, and actually the better parent at the moment. I am sure the shock of what she is doing will set in at some point. Turn that anger and betrayal into a great moments with your kids.

I remember this summer H was 'working' on me, trying to convince me to let him go away with his friends from the bar (all male). I found out later he was trying to plan a get away with OW. Just the thought of that makes me ill. I can't imagine knowing it was going on. I am so sorry.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain - 09/29/07 04:19 AM
Thanks for being there, lwb.

I really understand better now why snooping is bad, bad stuff, even a little bit. Too much information.

Still, I feel the occasional urge to talk to the OM's W to get more information on who this guy is -- I don't really know all that much about him apart from being a two-time home wrecker.

<journaling>
Today s*cked. I could hardly concentrate on work given what I knew was happening this weekend.
This evening, I picked up a pizza on the way over to get my S's for the weekend. I phoned W and told her all about my dinner plans so she wouldn't try to go ahead and fix the boys supper before I got there. I told her there would be enough pizza for me to leave a couple of slices for W and the MIL. (W thinks I am too selfish, but here is a generous gesture on my part.)
When I got there MIL had just prepared a frozen pizza in the oven -- they had no plans to partake of my offering. < MIL = b!tch>

Later on around bedtime, I tried and tried to call W to tell our S's good night, but she never responded. We ended up leaving a long voicemail.

Then S6 had an emotional meltdown when we discovered W hadn't packed his favorite bedtime toy, a plush orca whale named Shima, with his belongings. That meant saddling up both S's in my car and driving six miles there and six miles back to get S6's toy and S2's stuffed toy. Just as we were heading out, W calls, finally. I told her we were on our way to get the much needed sources of bedtime comfort for our S's. It's about 8:40 PM and I apologized for doing this so late at night -- I know/assume she has to get up early in the morning to go to work.

W tells me she's sorry she's not there at the house, or else she would drive the items up herself. She says she's out having dinner, at TGI Fridays. I said, "Dinner? At this time of the night? You?" She made some reply about she gets hungry <oh, is that what we're calling it?>

I told her to shush, and quit lieing to me -- I am no fool. I gave the phone to S6 as I continued to drive down to the house. He's talking to his mother the whole time, and just before I pull into our cul de sac, S6 hands me back the phone. W tells me that she has already told her mother (the MIL) to expect me to arrive. WTH?!! I know W has two cell phones now (a personal one and one from her employer) but how could she have gotten a single word over to her M on a second phone when I was listening to S6 talk to her pretty much the whole time?

W started to say something more to me to try to defend her going out to dinner, but I curtly told her good-bye and hung up on her.

When I got inside my house I ran upstairs annoucing to MIL it was just me. MIL says she was warned that I was coming. I said, "Yeah, I won't be long. Too bad she couldn't be here herself to help with her son's needs. Thanks for covering for her adultery."

MIL got real p*ssy with me accusing her of being complicit with her D's A, that W was just out having dinner.
I replied, "And I guess her little trip to the beach is innocent too, huh?"
MIL said, "It's just for training, to continue her education."
I snorted and said, "You know full well OM will be there."
MIL accused me of having a bad attitude.
I raised my hand to silence her, and turned away.
As I was walking out the door, MIL shouted at me to make sure I lock the front door behind me, because I always forget.
I stopped and said, "I do not. I have always made sure that at least the deadbolt is locked."
She said that I certainly did forget, the last time was couple of weeks ago.

MIL and her D (my W) are too much alike -- petty, selfish and nitpicking.

The drive back was not good either. S6, bless his heart, having caught some of the exchange between W and myself, and then MIL and myself, tried to talk to me about what he could say to his mother to smooth things over. S6 is a lot like his mother in that he does not handle most relationship problems and conflicts well, and has this overriding desire to try to control or fix other people's behaviors. I have observed this neurotic trait in him while playing with his younger sibling -- he tries to manipulate S2 and tries to speak for him at times. This is how my W is and has been for much of her life, which has only brought her grief and many failed relationships in her life.

Thus began a very long conversation between S6 and myself, with S2 listening but not understanding. I have finally gotten sick and tired of all the lying and covering up for my W. I am tired of all these enabling behaviors. I believe in protecting my children from things that they need not know about, but I don't like hiding the truth from them either. So for better or worse, I have begun opening up with my sons. I am now preparing them for the eventuality that their parents are likely to never get back together again, but that I would fight tooth and nail to stay as their father for as long as they would have me. I told them that their mother was no longer in love with their father and that she wanted to replace him if she could. I told them to pray for their mother and hope that God somehow reaches her.

S6 kept thinking there had to be some way he could convince his mother to keep us together as a family. I kept re-iterating to him that nothing we could say would ever be able to change W's mind -- only God could do that and only if W would allow it.

I know that much of what was said between S6 and myself would get back to W. So be it. I'm getting tired of this facade. Let her get mad at me. The pretense and the lies to me are so insulting.
Posted By: runningoutoftime Re: King of Pain - 09/29/07 05:06 AM
No Code Blues,

I don't have a lot of time, but you really need to let all this go. She can divorce you and she can ultimately have those kids around a million different guys if she wants. Quit imagining her relationship is so rosy. Eventually even the best of situations start to show strains and cracks.

And I'm going to hit you with a a 2x4 about how you handled the whole situation with bipolar vs. manic depressive. Why on earth would you even argue about that? As someone just wrote to me earlier... is that the hill you want to die on? If you want your wife to want you again, you need to listen to her and not argue. Agree, or repeat what she says so she feels listened to. Do you think OM is arguing with her like this?

Sorry if I sound a little harsh...
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain - 09/29/07 02:44 PM
Root, I need that 2x4 to the head. I really do. Thanks.

I am my own worst enemy right now. My conversation with S6 last night is already bearing its bitter fruit, just as I predicted. W is furious at me for telling S6 the truth about what's going on. I am not going to lie to him anymore, not for her sole benefit anyways. S6 is very perceptive, and if he asks, I am going to answer -- I can only sugar-coat it so much before it becomes a blatant lie.

W had a date with OM last night, and that's the fact. She's also planning a weekend getaway to the beach with the OM tomorrow, and that's a fact. She keeps talking to my S's behind my back about the OM's children -- to get my S's accustomed to the idea of a blended family. That too is a fact.

W's been in denial about this the whole time and she wants everyone else to remain in the fog as well.

I am continually having my intelligence insulted. I am continually being treated as the ignorant fool and patsy. I feel like the goose being fattened up for Christmas dinner.

But all my protestations are only precipitating the very thing I fear. I really have screwed up.

So I guess I am now at the point where I don't care anymore. That I must make myself not care. To detach, for real. I have been holding onto hope that W would come to her senses, but I can't rely on that, not anymore. I really do need to let go.

It's so very hard.

That's the difference between wisdom and intelligence. I have the intelligence to know what I must do, but I have not enough wisdom to actually do these things.
Posted By: runningoutoftime Re: King of Pain - 09/29/07 09:23 PM
She is baiting you and trying to make you mad to validate what she's doing. Do not give her the satisfaction!!!! Just smile and say, "Thanks for explaining that to me." Don't worry about her making you look stupid. So what!!!! Are you stupid? Of course not. I can tell you are a brillant person. Just humor her!!! Don't fall for these traps.

And when you do something that makes her angry like explain to your son what's going on... turn it around to her and make it sound like you are doing HER a FAVOR!!! Tell her you want to make this easier for her to bring everything out of the closet. She doesn't have to hide. BE NICE!!!! You are HELPING HER!!! At least that's how you present this stuff. Because, from what you've described and how she baits you, I think the more you are against this the more she will do it to spite you.

One more thing..... if you can believe this I thought about this when I woke up this morning.... Sheesh!!! Well, at least you know some stranger you don't really know is concerned about your family....

When you have your sons and she's out doing her thing.... make sure you plan something REALLY SPECIAL!!! Go to a super fun amusement park, some kind of really neat fair or carnival. Something super special. Take lots of PHOTOS, have such a WONDERFUL TIME that when the boys get home all they can do is talk about what an amazing time they had with dad. It's time to become the "Disneyland Dad." You guys have an amazing time and she's not part of it. She needs to MISS THIS. Her time with "Mr. Smooth" (Gag me!) needs to pale in comparison...

Don't worry about "screwing up" sometimes it's extremely difficult to stop the momentum.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain - 09/30/07 01:42 AM
Thanks, Root. You are obviously a very kind and sensitive person to be so concerned. I really appreciate it. I appreciate you and everyone here in the DBB who help to support one another, and to express such deep concern for our families.

I know I have to get my act together. It's so hard to stay objective and stay focused on the "prize" when you feel like you keep getting sucker-punched. My rope-a-dope needs work.

Your suggestions are great. Especially with regards to defusing W's anger by turning it into a positive for her. But W is a weird bird, especially now of days, and her reactions to things I say or do, no matter how different they may be from what one would normally expect from me, seem to always invoke a negative response from her. I am beginning to wonder if there's really any cheese in any of the tunnels.

I think I need to go dark, like ice-black dark. I have not tried to talk to her for myself when she's called today, just giving the phone straight over to my S's right away. On one call this morning she tried to say something to me again about her decision to leave me came first and only then did the A start -- but I didn't wait for her to say any more, I just handed the phone to S6 and walked away. I was in no mood to hear more of her rationalizations. I need to regroup and figure out how to get back on track.
Posted By: runningoutoftime Re: King of Pain - 09/30/07 02:10 AM
If you feel you need to go dark for your sanity then that's a valid thing to do.

One thing you must keep in mind is that prize may never come. You are doing the best you can to keep your family together, and if this goes down you can go down with it knowing you did all you could. You will have no regrets. The main thing I always say is go down looking great. It will give OM much more to live up to!

My guess about your wife being a "weird bird" is she really knows how to push your buttons and is doing everything she can to do that. You have to STOP taking this personal. When you actually are detached it won't be punch to you, she'll be just flailing her fists in the air. You're kind of above it thinking to youself.... hummmm... interesting.... and saying to her, "Well, I understand," and when appropriate, "You're right. you're mentally and emotionally removed. Try to get there. Don't expect to change your wife or the course of this, but make sure she goes out with good memories of what a great guy you were and has to eventually face her own regret.
Posted By: runningoutoftime Re: King of Pain - 09/30/07 02:10 AM
If you feel you need to go dark for your sanity then that's a valid thing to do.

One thing you must keep in mind is that prize may never come. You are doing the best you can to keep your family together, and if this goes down you can go down with it knowing you did all you could. You will have no regrets. The main thing I always say is go down looking great. It will give OM much more to live up to!

My guess about your wife being a "weird bird" is she really knows how to push your buttons and is doing everything she can to do that. You have to STOP taking this personal. When you actually are detached it won't be punch to you, she'll be just flailing her fists in the air. You're kind of above it thinking to youself.... hummmm... interesting.... and saying to her, "Well, I understand," and when appropriate, "You're right. you're mentally and emotionally removed. Try to get there. Don't expect to change your wife or the course of this, but make sure she goes out with good memories of what a great guy you were and has to eventually face her own regret.
Posted By: LL44 Re: King of Pain - 09/30/07 02:12 AM
She just tries to bait you, even that phone call today, she HAD to get some sort of dig in even before talking to her own son!!! WOW!!! You have a mess on your hands, but guess what? At the moment she isn't your mess. Let MIL clean her up. I can't believe your MIL is sooo amazingly...what's the word.....two faced, I guess. Probably supporting W's whims, but then denying it to you. Puleeze. Sounds like you didn't let MIL get to you and that's good. Bigger and better people, form lines to the left please. That's you!

Dark Dark Dark and Disneyland Dad. BIG time. Its what we have left after everything is said and done.

I am so sorry. My weekend is boring compared to yours, unless you have kicked in a shower door or two. ;\) HUGS TO YOU

PS: The talks with your older son?? Man, he is taking it to heart and you did your best with him. You are amazing.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain - 09/30/07 08:55 PM
Thanks, all, root and lwb, for the 2x4's and the hugs. They're all greatly appreciated.

<observation> Things are really weird today. I feel in limbo (that's to be expected I guess), but I at least have the S's to keep me occupied.

One thing odd happened this morning when W called to talk to our S's before starting her day. I have been methodically avoiding conversation with W since yesterday morning, giving my S's the phone as soon as she calls. The most I say to her is something about how the boys are and have been doing and then I wish her a good day or good night and hang up. Keeping it sweet by keeping it very short. Well, this morning when I took the phone back from my S's after talking with W, she quickly interjected something quick enough before I could change the subject.

Me: <taking the phone back from S2> Okay, well, I hope you...
W: Oh, I think I have come down with the same stuff the boys have had -- if I don't feel any better, I probably won't be going out of town to the seminar. <sniffle>
Me: ...I'm sorry you don't feel well. I hope you have a good day. Be careful today. Good bye.
W: Good bye.

Oddly, I felt somewhat ambivalent. I certainly don't want her to go. But I also don't want her to hold it against me if she doesn't either. Part of me wonders if she is trying to find some excuse not to go -- but I don't think that necessarily means it is favorable to me. The only reason she wouldn't, that I can think of other than being really and truly ill, would be as an attempt to throw me off. (You have to realize that it really takes a lot for my W to get sick, let alone sick enough to keep her at home from something she wants to do.)

I really don't know what to think, but then she hasn't yet bailed out of her romantic getaway just yet either.

We will see.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain - 10/01/07 02:29 AM
Okay, so its confirmed -- W bailed out of the romantic getaway to the beach with OM because of a sinus cold.

I don't know what to think or what I feel.
Posted By: runningoutoftime Re: King of Pain - 10/01/07 04:22 PM
Try not to read anything into it. It doesn't necessarily mean anything. Perhaps she didn't want to be coughing up green stuff around OM. You don't want to be disappointed by reading anything into this.

Instead continue to work on your own PMA, distancing, allowing her the space to figure herself out, friendly and nice (I like that you are saying kind things like, "Hope you feel better," etc... Keep that up... if she says anything nasty ignore it, look at your watch and maybe say, "Well... ooooh, time to go. I'm suppose to be somewhere in 20 minuets. See ya later!")

Always stay on the "high road" and be the "better person" and you won't have regrets. STAY CALM! Consider your wife mentally deranged at this time and don't take anything personal. On a personal note, in the past I was always reacting and defending myself against negative remarks or attacks. I'm kind of proud of myself to have learned the self-control to realize inside, whatever is being hurled at me is a bunch of malarky and I don't NEED to react to it. Escalating the situation doesn't help me one bit.

>>I don't know what to think or what I feel.<<

Think about yourself, think about your kids, and feel good you are alive one more day.
Posted By: Yoyowife Re: King of Pain - 10/01/07 04:31 PM
Take this time to pamper her without smothering her. Offer to get her medicine, food, movies, a back rub, etc.

You will be one with her this weekend, not the OM. Make yourself attractive her. Be strong, be caring, be fun.

By the way I think you are handling things well.

Yoyo
Posted By: runningoutoftime Re: King of Pain - 10/01/07 10:28 PM
Good point Yoyo!!!! Being extra nice even when they are mean can be very friendship-building... and even a little fun! It's like trying to get a cranky person to let go of the chip on their shoulder. When my husband and I were in divorce I'd still do nice things all the time. But the main thing about doing these nice things is to not have expectations and present them in a way so the spouse doesn't feel like you are expecting something from them. That way the nice things don't backfire and make it look like you are wanting more than they are willing to give... while they are far from ready for that.

For example, I love to bake!!! (Yes, there are thin woman who love to bake!!!), and I used to make cookies and things. During the divorce I'd put extra homemade cookies, muffins or whatever in baggies and either give them to my husband when he dropped off the kids or leave it with his mail. I'd always explain or leave a note saying how I happened to bake a bunch of cookies, we couldn't possibly eat them all and I thought he might enjoy a few. I'd rather share them then throw the extras away. Even though it took time, I think it was little tokens of good will like this that helped him see me in a more positive light.

In the beginning he wouldn't except them or would just leave them at the house. Eventually, once time had passed and some of the really intense anger had diminished (and he didn't feel threated or like I was "trying to get back together with him") he would accept them. He didn't thank me, but at least he took them. Then eventually, as more time passed, he finally got to a point where he would thank me. I learned to not expect that. So when he did I would be very grateful and tell him I was really pleased he liked whatever I had left or given him....

So... in your case, if you were to drop off some over the counter medicine or whatever... you could say, "Hey I just happened to pick up two bottles of this the other day for the kids," (Even if you just bought it an hour ago!), "I don't think they'll need the second bottle right away so if you could use it please go ahead and take it.... if not that's okay too...."

Posted By: LL44 Re: King of Pain - 10/02/07 12:56 AM
What a turn of events!!! I understand what you mean about being torn about her cancelling her weekend. But its happened, and now you can take this chance to be her friend.

Question, why did she cancel it on a Monday, when its not til this coming weekend (maybe I have the dates wrong?). If it were me, I would assume I would feel better by the weekend. Hmmmm....
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain - 10/02/07 05:37 AM
Woah, Root, that's spooky!
Right about the time you posted your message about dropping off baked goods, cookies, (around 6:30 PM EST) I just happened to be dropping off some brownies at the house (on my way to tonight's DivorceCare session). I baked up a bunch of brownies yesterday for the boys, and I really can't eat them all myself (even though they're the low-fat variety.) My 2 S's loved them so much I decided I would drop off most of them tonight at our house. (I had packed a couple with S6's lunch this morning too.) I also used this brief visit as an opportunity to say goodnight to my S's in person.

And W thanked me for the nice gesture (she has a serious sweet tooth.)

Weird. I guess great minds...

The cold medicine is a great idea, however, as a registered nurse with anal retentive tendencies, my W is almost always stocked up on medicinal needs.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain - 10/02/07 06:10 AM
Sorry, Lwb. I guess what I wrote wasn't very clear. The weekend in reference was this one just past.

My W worked this past weekend -- all day on Saturday, but she had just a couple of patients scheduled for the early morning hours on Sunday (yesterday). Her original plan was to proceed directly from her last patient Sunday morning to the beach-front resort community where the "Nursing seminar" was (supposedly) to be held. She and the OM would have had most of Sunday afternoon for fun in the sun followed by a romantic evening together. The seminar was supposed to have been this morning, Monday, (assuming that was not a complete lie) and I'm sure she would have driven back late this evening after spending as much time with OM as possible. Their plans changed when she apparently came down with a head cold.

W had asked me to clear my schedule to be able to keep my S's an extra evening, and then be able to drop them off this morning for the bus (for S6) and with my MIL (for S2). This also meant that my appointment with my IC (who had been our would-be MC) Sunday evening had to also be postponed. I had agreed initially because I enjoy getting as much time with my S's as possible. I then discovered that W was not going alone.
Posted By: andyv Re: King of Pain - 10/02/07 10:42 AM
NCB,

It is so hard to be able to think rationally when all of this drama is happening in our lives.

I too have been "used" over the last 11 months, bending over backwards to co-parent and not having a social life due to dropping everything for W's lifestyle. I would always rush to get home for W to go do her kickboxing and rockclimbing, then cancel plans due to her working late (movies with OM) and having to look after DD etc etc.

I love spending my time with DD, but I am not going to be at her beck and call anymore. She will have to realise that if she want's to live her lifestyle and "date" OM then she will have to manage as if she were a single parent (when she has custody anyway).

NCB, I know it may not seem like it, but it will get easier for you with time, believe me.

AndyV
Posted By: LL44 Re: King of Pain - 10/02/07 02:02 PM
Ok, NCB, that makes more sense. I probably read it wrong, I am sure you worded it just fine. \:\)

Either way, she didn't go. How is her mood today? I just wonder what's going through her mind about missing the day with OM (barf). How will she reschedule this without being suspicious? Our OP find a way, I am sure.

Loving the brownie thing. \:\)
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain - 10/02/07 03:14 PM
Thanks, Andy.

I really want to get as much time with my son's as I can possibly get.

(In fact, if this M does end in D, I intend to seek not only joint legal custody, but joint physical custody as well. I know it's a long shot, but I think it's worth it.)

I can't control my W's actions, and if she abuses my willingness to take the S's off her (and the MIL's) hands whenever I am able, so be it. I don't like the fact that this is harmful to our R, since W will have less respect for me, but I think the benefit to my R with my S's outweighs that. I just have to tough it out, because it still really hurts to see what she's doing -- not just to me and our M but to my S's and our family.
Posted By: LL44 Re: King of Pain - 10/02/07 03:18 PM
yes, NBC, kids come first. This is exactly why I haven't formally kicked H out. My girls have the right to have access to both of us when they want, not when we decide. This will be the way it is in our house unless something really bad happens. You just have to continue soaking up your sons and bonding with them. We, as adults, will get through this, but our kids? They need us the most at this time.
Posted By: NoCodeBlues Re: King of Pain - 10/02/07 04:17 PM
Lwb,

I really don't know what W's mood really has been since her weekend (or should I say "overnight" trip?) fell through, but I just saw her this morning in a parent-teacher meeting (S6's annual IEP assessment). She was still sniffling from her cold, and since we were focused on the information regarding S6, I didn't gather anything from her outside of that. We arrived at S's school separately, and left separately. But W called me from her cell phone as each of us were driving away. It started out talking about S6's behavioral problems, but quickly devolved in blaming them on me.

For a long time now, S6 has had a problem with most adults and figures of authority in paying attention to them and following directions. Part of this is due to his AS and his sensory integration problems. He has also not given due respect to some adults and that too has been an issue in school. And these are areas that we as the parents and the teachers are having to work on with S6.

W called me on the cellphone still sniffling -- I'm not sure if it was entirely due to her cold, or whether she was upset. I think it was a little of both. She said that in hearing the teachers describe S6's habitual ignoring of adults and other people he needs to listen to, she realized that these were traits and habits S6 picked up from me. Because I would ignore W and not listen to what she said, S6 learned these bad behaviors from me. He learned by my example. She said she might could stand physical or verbal abuse, but not being ignored like I did to her.

This led into yet another R talk. I tried several times to steer us back onto the subject about our S, but W still wants to find every fault in our M and our R and make that the cause for every ill in our lives.

I tried to just agree with her where I could, and acknowledge her elsewhere. But there were a few things I responded with that were not helpful at all.

I told W that, yes, when I was deep in depression I ignored everybody and withdrew from life, and I am sorry if S6 learned to ignore people from how I mismanaged my problems. But I also said that the disrespect that S6 displays to adults was learned behavior from observing W's lack of respect for me.

W's response was, "How can I respect someone who won't listen to me?"
I responded, "How can I listen to someone who won't respect me?"

W is still upset with me for opening up to my S's this weekend and giving S6 the impression that his mother is a lier. I merely said that W was not going to tell S6 the whole truth about what she was up to and was planning. I did not call W a lier, but that's the impression either he got from me, or she got from S6. I apologized for that. I always tell my S's that their mother loves them very much, and so does their father, even though we both make mistakes.

W made it clear she does not want me to breath a word to our S's anymore about our R. Basically, if I can't handle it, then to just say nothing at all and tell them to talk to her instead if they have questions. W told me that this is her business, not mine. I told her that anything that affects our family is most certainly my business and that of our S's. She said that I don't know what I'm talking about, and that her seeing the OM is not an A; they have a close friendship. OM is kind and gentle, and I am just mean and jealous.

I asked her what would she expect me to be? How would she react if I were the one seeing another person? She said she would cut me loose and not have anything to do with me if that were so. But then she didn't realize that I was even capable of becoming jealous of her until I did so. I told her up until then I was lost in the fog of depression.

W still insists that my depression was a cop-out. She tried to help me seek medication and to seek help for the sleep problems, but still I wouldn't stop being depressed. She then "gave up". I told her all we did was to address the symptoms of my depression , not the cause thereof. I needed therapy and counseling. We needed therapy and counseling -- and I apologized for not following up on her suggestion for that last Spring, but I was too depressed to get help for myself.

Again, W said that the depression was no excuse for the neglect and poor treatment. I told her that for someone who tried to lecture me on her knowledge of psychology, she demonstrates very little understanding of what depression is and its effects. Her dismissal of my depression is a cop-out.

We got refocused on S6's issues and began to discuss some actions we could take to help him out in his behavior and learning plans. Once we came to some agreements on the best approach for handling S6 and especially on our attitudes for dealing with our S's, we were a little less tense with each other, or so I felt. So I then asked W if we could maintain this "truce", as I put it, for the sake of ourselves and our S's. She agreed so long as I cease discussing our "adult matters" with our S's. I said okay, if she could observe some boundaries herself, especially with regards to OM and my S's. Again she denied doing anything wrong -- or to be more precise, doing anything she thought was harmful to our S's.

I let it go. I again had to realize that she's just too far gone to see anything with any degree of objectivity. At least it was somewhat more friendly towards the end than how it started.

I need to go dark, and stay dark now. It's just so darn hard when there are children involved!
Posted By: andyv Re: King of Pain - 10/02/07 08:59 PM
NCB,

Your last post had me shaking my head in amazement. It is so weird how some sitches are so similar and seem to pan out in the same way.

One thing I did learn was to stop talking about W to DD. Although W was decieving and lying during her A with OM, and making DD lie for her as well, I think my pressure on DD really did affect her more than I thought. Being the honest and open person I am, I would not hold back on letting DD know exactly what her mother was like, and not wanting DD to turn out like her............my mistake.

During these months, my DD became withdrawn and somewhat difficult to handle, especially with authority figures like teachers and relatives (grandparents etc). This was somewhat due to what was happening at home.

Since I stopped talking about my W to DD (over the last several weeks, part of going dark) she has improved and is doing really well at school, is a joy when we go out and is very responsive and considerate. I think the pressure does get to them more than we know.

I also have found that W is run down most of the time, and suffers from regular colds and sniffles. This was due to her lifestyle, staying out till the early hours of the morning, never being home, going out till midnight most nights, then having to get up at 6am to go to work etc etc. She used to go to bed at 9pm when we were happy and sleep through to 7 or 8 am. She enjoyed her sleep so much, it is a complete change for her now.

Also, your S6 will always tell W exactly what you have said about her, which will validate all her reasons to want to leave you. The less ammo you give her the more frustrated she will be, and the more uncertain she will be about what she is doing.

I also suffered from depression (did not know it until C session during my turmoil earlier this year), and this depression has been going on since DD was born. I think I was also going through a MLC, but handled it so much differently. Did not stray, did not want to leave my family (but did wonder if I made a mistake with being with W and if my life would have been different depending on the path I chose, like "Back to the Future" \:\) )

I just became a little withdrawn, nothing major. It sure does sound from what you have said in previous post, that maybe your W is going down the same path as someone suffering from MLC.

Just continue to go dark and do not give her any more ammo to validate any of her feelings against you.

I hope you have a better day today,
AndyV
Posted By: runningoutoftime Re: King of Pain - 10/02/07 11:59 PM
Ahhh... next time don't answer the phone or very NICELY use some excuse and get off ASAP!!!

Unfortunately, parenting doesn't get easier (even with neurotypical children) and it's very easy to vent frustrations on someone you are trying to push away. EXPECT kid issues to be difficult. Sadly there are probably many things you won't agree about regarding this.

Are you taking anything for your depression? If not, you might want to ask your doctor about low-level Lexapro. I know some doctors treat ASD and Autism with ADs.... by the way, just curious... ever try cutting out dairy or wheat?
Posted By: LL44 Re: King of Pain - 10/03/07 02:51 AM
NCB, that was quite the talk you guys had today. WOW. First of all, I am sorry about S6, his problems and having to deal with them. That's always so hard. I was glad to read that you guys seemed to have come (quickly) to an agreement on how to deal with his behaviors, so you can be consistent. Great.

Onto W. She is fog fog foggy!!! I can't believe it. Wait, yes I can, I live with a fog dweller as well. Don't you hate when they 1) dredge up history and 2) alter it to make us a bad guy. I will be the first to own up and say I wasn't a perfect spouse, but H totally blows it out of proportion.

Quote:
I need to go dark, and stay dark now. It's just so darn hard when there are children involved!


I know this all too well!!! If we didn't have kids, H and I would be legally separated and I would soooo be dark!!! But, in the long run, maybe our kids will keep us together? We can hope.
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