GH Saga...progress?

[grasshopper]

Well, last night was not so good. W was depressed again. I really don't know why. She doesn't really talk much about the specifics. Hell, there may not even be any specific thing she's upset about. I'm starting to think she has a real mental health issue. Once again she said she wanted "help" but would not elaborate on what that would be, and this morning, when I asked her about last night, she just brushed it aside. She said she was fine and gave me a big hug and smile.

Last night she was not sure she could "go on" (although she made it clear she was not talking about suicide), was "pretending to be happy all the time" and was just tired of life. She was not really crying but was clearly very upset. I don't know if she had been drinking a lot. I went to bed an hour before all this started.

All in all, it wasn't too bad but I am getting really frustrated at this cycle of her "depression" followed by "I'm not feeling well" the next day, followed by a week or so of "good" days.

I suppose if it were not so dramatic I would just think this was one more time (or set of times) that I need to learn to listen, validate, comfort and just allow her to move on. Maybe that IS all that is required of me, I don't know. It just seems like she's actually ASKING me to fix her but I don't know how, or more accurately, I know she needs to see a doctor but I can't get her to do it. I know that's the first step but today, like ALL days after a bad night, she's doing her best "Everything is fine, I was just having a bad night. I am really ok, I promise..." routine.

This is nothing really new. She has had these "episodes" for as long as I have known her, it's just the intensity and frequency that has increased lately.

I DO think my handling of this stuff is making a difference. She seems to be opening up to me more.

In the end, referring back to Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus, I guess this may be one of those times when a woman may be dramatizing something, seeming to be saying some pretty "final" things but is actually just venting, wanting to be validated and allowed to get it all out. I hope so because that's how I am treating it. I still think there is some "fixing" to be done but I want her to fix herself. I just don't know if she either knows how or will even if she does.

So, more good than bad days lately. Hope that continues...

GH

[toughlover]

I suppose if it were not so dramatic I would just think this was one more time (or set of times) that I need to learn to listen, validate, comfort and just allow her to move on. Maybe that IS all that is required of me, I don't know.

I think you nailed it, bro. I don't think women EVER want to be told HOW or WHY unless they ask first for something very specific. I've always had a hard time understanding that, cause if I talk about a problem, and someone knows how to fix, buddy I want to know what the fix is.

Sometimes I think many women really don't care if something is "fixed" or "broken"...they just want to know you're there.

[MuddleThrough]

You know, GH, this might come a bit out of left field here, but I wonder if your desire to fix your W or fix yourself or your life to address what seems to be causing your W distress, whether it's asked for or not, is preventing her from reaching the point where she will take action on her own issues. It's pretty clear that she has some issues with depression, which she medicates with drink or the A she had, and she is somewhat in denial of the problem. I think, as I think you do as well, that she could greatly benefit from therapy.

I don't know any better what it will take for her to take action on her stuff herself, but at some point it has to happen. I think it's good for your relationship that she's opening up and expressing her feelings, but I don't think expressing her feelings will resolve anything. I think she needs to address the cause of the feelings. She is far too willing to write off what she was dwelling on the night before (because she feels ok the next day even though nothing has changed) - and this strikes me as denial, and is unhealthy.

I re-read the DR chapter on depression, and it really is striking just how many of the criteria my wife met. The thought patterns that MWD discusses are the most troubling thing, as the person suffering depression has to change their perspective themselves. Give it a read.

[frank_D]

I asked her a few times what it would take for her to "do something" about all this and she said it wouldn't take anything. I also told her that she needed to not drink, or do SOMETHING so that every Monday didn't go that way.

Instead of syaing what she needs to 'not' do, which we don't internalize anyway because we don't hear 'no' in sentences, why not ask her what you CAN do together to spend Sunday differently? You only break a habit or behavior by replacing it with something else.

What would that be?

[grasshopper]

Actually Frank, that's a good thought, one that I can apply elsewhere, but Sunday night is really no different than Friday or Saturday in that sometimes she drinks a bit too much. The thing we can do differently is for her not to drink. Other than that, we do the same things (Watch a little TV/movie/talk, get the kid's stuff ready for Monday and go to bed) as we do most other nights. It just seems like she's not gotten used to Sunday not being a "free" night like it was in the summer.

I THINK she got the message this weekend and like I said, I REALLY will take to heart your suggestion going forward that I not use "no" and "not", replacing them with more positive suggestions/ideas.

As for replacing her "habit" with something else, she USED to drink tea at night, a habit she's starting to get back to on nights she doesn't have her wine. That is a REALLY promising sign since it's been a LONG time since she's done that, and for me, a sign that she's trying to do something else other than just break the habit. She IS trying to replace it, or rather go back to how she was years ago, something that I think we both know would be healthier for her.

GH

[RBinBR]

She didn't get upset and instead said it not only needed to stop on Sundays, but it needed to not ever happen again (I assume she means drinking too much and then feeling the way she does the day after) and she "knew what needed to be done", which I assume is to stop drinking.

That's a couple of assumptions in there, GH. I would suggest that you wrap up convos by summarizing an action plan to make sure that both of you are on the same page:

"So, just to make sure we understand each other, you are agreeing to stop drinking on Sundays, correct? Is this a plan that you are implementing immediately?"

[frank_D]

As for replacing her "habit" with something else, she USED to drink tea at night, a habit she's starting to get back to on nights she doesn't have her wine. That is a REALLY promising sign since it's been a LONG time since she's done that, and for me, a sign that she's trying to do something else other than just break the habit.

Offer to make tea then.

You're a good man. She knows it. It will work out.

[superstressed]

GH,

I second the tea thing. Don't just make one for her at night. Make a cup for yourself too.

I think my H has made a cup of tea for each of us every single morning we have been together for our entire marriage (actually, while we were dating too.) As far as I can tell, for those across the pond, drinking tea can be a comfort thing. Drinking tea together each night can be a chance for you and your W to reconnect every day.


SuperStressed

[Mamabear]

GH,
You really cracked me up;

I think for the time being, I am just going to concentrate on Mama and cheer her on. NOOOOOO more batteries!!!!!

I was reading your latest thread with my serious thinking cap on and then you throw in the last line, you are quite funny!

I too think your wife may have a depression/drinking problem. She drinks because she is depressed and then she is depressed that she drank. A vicious cycle my friend. NO ONE is going to get her to end this cycle except your W and unfortunately this might not be something she will ever do. I guess you could treat her like a kid throwing a tantrum or showing negative behaviour; I usually jump in with a distraction. Move the kid to another toy or room in the house. It shouldn't take all night to get the kids ready for school on Monday so maybe do that early in the evening and suggest you all go for a walk or a bike ride or to the park. This way she doesn't have the opportunity to drink quite so much. Just a thought...

[grasshopper]

Thanks Mama. Glad I could crack you up today.

As for my W's drinking, I am just tired of thinking about it. I know it's a problem but how big a problem I don't know. I also know that it's something she's got to get a handle on herself.

She SEEMS to be doing better but I still hear things like "I know I don't HAVE to drink, but it's somethig I choose to do. I could choose not to whenever I want..." Gee, that's not textbook or anything. To underscore that she usually quits for a couple days but then goes right back. It's surely a cycle.

Last night we talked a bit about it. She said she'd been feeling better the past few days (of which she only drank one night and that was not very much). I said I thought that MAY have something to do with the lack of drinking and she didn't disagree but still proceeded to drink last night, again, not that much. I just let it go. She was in a good mood, and I was tired.

Like I said, this is NOT something new for my W. She's been in this pattern since I met her and while that does not make it ok, it does make it something that I was WELL aware of and have been dealing with for almost a decade now. It's not likely to change today, tomorrow or the next day.

The bottom line is that, like I said in the beginning, I don't know how much of an issue her drinking really is. She doen't drink any more or less than most people I know (again, that doesn't make it right) but it's clearly something that affects her in a negative way yet she persists on doing it.

Time to shift the focus. As you said Mama, I don't dwell on it, or directly try to stop it, I am just focused on making our lives better, encouraging her to make HER life better and if that happens, history shows me that the drinking WILL be less of an issue.

GH

[grasshopper]

Thanks for the thoughts cupcake.

Wow, what an issue. I think your wife drinks to numb her feelings. SHe uses alcohol to escape from life.

I agree. She SAYS it's because it helps her sleep/not have nightmares but that's just the latest reason/excuse. The good news is that she's starting to acknowledge out loud that it's a problem, one that she MAY need help to solve. It's a step, and if you believe the old adage, you can't get help without first admitting the problem.

Most people I know don't drink on a weekly/nightly basis. I think you might be fooling yourself into thinking that is "what most people do". the one's I know who do have a problem with alcohol and hence, other problems as well.

Here's the thing. After hearing a lot about my W's drinking and my reaction to it, my C suggested that I may have a perception problem because I don't, and never have, drink. She said from what I described, my W may or may not have an issue with alcohol. I thought about that, having always assumed that it WAS a problem. I have always known that my opinion is skewed because I don't even know what it's like to drink but this was the first time someone on the outside said this to me.

After that session I thought a LOT about how I handled my W drinking and how my response to it has played a LARGE role in our issues over the years...

and I want to clarify something, when I say drinking, I mean one glass of wine or 4. When I say she drinks many nights of the week, I mean sometimes it's two glasses, sometimes (rare) it's 3, 4 or 5...

SO, I decided to take a little informal poll among my friends and co-workers. I found that the vast majority of them said they had a beer or two many times a week and on the weekends, more. Are they all abnormal? Do they all have a problem? I found one person who said he made it a point to only drink on the weekends and that was because he used to do it too much during the week.

Again, a drink or two with dinner or while watching TV seemed to be the norm with the folks I talked to. Maybe I am just talking to the wrong people.

I am so sorry you are going thru this on top of the simple WAW thing. It just compounds the problem.

I agree. It does. Thank you.

I think you wife needs to get out of the house, get a job, and interact daily with other adults. She seems to be missing that. I know I did when I was home all day with small children. I think she is just afraid to admit it, thinking she is a "bad mom" if she admits to needing something more.

To me, this is the key to everything. So much of what happened was because we had/have (working on it) NO social life away from the kids. She lost touch with all her friends and lived much of the last 6 years as a shut-in stay at home mom. Like many other men caught off-guard by this stuff, I thought she liked her life and was fulfilled by her role as mother/wife. It was always her choice to stay home. I know now that she just kept her sadness and frustration inside because, as you said, she felt like she couldn't want/ask for more or else she'd be a bad mom/wife. So sad because I unknowingly contributed to these feelings. I hate that and I am working SO hard to make sure she knows she is "free" to be herself and explore life...just not with another man mind you.

Hang in there....we are all rooting for you.

Thank you so much.

GH

[whatisis]

Hey GH! I just read a poem tonite and the last line made me think of your sitch. Here it is,
"Love's intoxication is the path to sobriety".
Hmmm! Take care.

[toughlover]

Have you asked openly what you can do for your W in day to day life to make things for her better? I'm just curious, because when you do for her, it's natural for her to want to do for you, and if she's not, then it seems you might not be reaching her where you should.

That's the key, really. No judgement on anyone's sitch but my own, but once I started doing that as best I could, coupled with eliminating all A/OM talk and all R talk she didn't initiate or wasn't interested in, I've seen a HUGE difference in my W.

Realized what I was doing much of the time was meeting the needs I WANTED her to have instead of the ones she actually had.

[grasshopper]

Thanks for the comments guys. I think I might need to clarify and hopefully this is not going to come off as defensive.

Nothing like nagging to kill the mood. Maybe you can hint through your actions - because I do think it's important to express your sexuality - in a way that is playful and/or suggestive rather than the intellectual/verbal communicating you're doing now.

I don't verbally communicate much at ALL. That's why I said that I really didn't intend to say "I plan to have sex tonight, wanna join me." I should have said more clearly that I didn't mean to say that because I KNOW that things like that killed the mood for her in the past. I am ALL about action these days and saying VERY little. It's one of the things I found out she hated and I am trying as best I can to not only respect HER wishes, but also honor who I want to be, and that is someone who isn't afraid of being assertive because I may be rejected. I don't take that personally anymore and I really think it's leading to a more comfortable R in terms of intimacy.
It's not like I have all the answers regarding my R and sexuality in it but this is one area where I have done a lot of soul searching and come up with a LOT of things I'd like to change in this respect and I found that through ALL my relationships I have done certain things, like being VERY passive/aggressive about sex, that I would like to change.

Have you asked openly what you can do for your W in day to day life to make things for her better? I'm just curious, because when you do for her, it's natural for her to want to do for you, and if she's not, then it seems you might not be reaching her where you should.

Yes, and this has made the biggest difference. I did this early on, when things started to get better and while she didn't really tell me much, between what she did say and what I figured out on my own, I managed to understand more than ever what I had not really been doing all these years. And that brings your next point...

he thing that's really troublesome to me when I read about this, and take this with a grain of salt because I don't know anything and I'm basing this on many levels of assumption, is: you seem to be really reworking yourself around your wife, who doesn't seem too interested in building a new, more developed relationship. It seems you're accommodating her and she isn't contributing much, whether it be vision of where the relationship should be or action to get it there. I know this DB stuff leads us to believe that we have to shoulder the weight and do the hard work in order to get to the point where our spouses will cooperate, but it seems to me that you are there and she isn't cooperating too much. It's like she's doing you a favor by staying and allowing you to have her as your wife.

Well, to be honest muddle, I have had that last thought myself but then when I take stock and see if I am REALLY doing things just for her, or if I am doing things that I really enjoy doing/would do for ANY woman in my life, or anybody for that matter that I cared about, I see that I am indeed just being me. For her part, she IS doing a lot more than really she has ever done in terms of reaching out to me, both literally and figuratively. Her contribution to forming our "new" marriage IS less than mine at this point but like many WAS's, I think her idea is to just forget it ever happened and move forward. Since we have had the "forgiveness" conversations (the one where I forgive her, and the one where I tell her she will eventually need to forgive herself) I feel ok with just moving forward. I don't need her to be vocal about her "vision" but I do need to hear certain reassurances from her and most importantly, I need her ACTIONS to match the little she does say about being committed to us and our future together.

So far, her actions of late are 100% transparent. Ever since we had that open talk about how all I really ever needed from her is to have her understand how certain things affected me, i.e. the long periods of time where she was not answering her phone, etc, and she said she totally understood that, things have been MUCH better. She said she never really thought about that. She would just get angry at me for my reaction and never stopped to realize how despite my best efforts, those kinds of things affected me.

I'm sure I'm misreading a lot here, but I caution you to be aware that you're either setting the precedent or feeding into one that's already set that she can do as she wishes and you'll be happy as long as she doesn't leave you. I know you want more, even if it's just the sex that's lacking. I think this is the big carrot on the end of the stick for you that once you achieve you'll have little motivation for progress. That's far too much emphasis on sex, far too much pressure. It should be fun, not necessarily loaded with meaning. Remember (and this is something WASs seem to think the reverse of) that actions generate feelings. If you wait around for the feelings to act, then you may never have the feelings.

I agree with this. Profound my friend. I really think I have stripped away most of the pressure (you have NO idea how bad I used to be. I can't imagine she ever wanted to ML, and that's not just me taking all the blame, that's REAL!). I THINK I have started to get my W to feel comfortable with me physically. In the past there was SO much pressure from me every time there was ANY physical interaction to ML that I suppose it eventually burned her out. I know the one time I had a GF that was like that (believe it or not) I felt that way. It was the only R I was ever in where I actually found reasons NOT to be around her because there was ALWAYS the expectation of sex. Wow, saying that sounds funny.

Anyway, it's NOT a topic of conversation between us anymore and I think my actions are affecting her, and HER actions seem to be more positive than ever...well...except for the no sex part and like I have been saying, I THINK that will be changing sooner rather than later and when it does, I REALLY think my opportunity to prove to myself AND her that I am capable of intimacy THROUGHOUT the house not just in the bedroom will be huge.

If we DO ML and then I don't physically pull away from her like I ALWAYS did for a few days after (i.e. her saying the only time I ever touch her is when I want sex) then I think much progress will be made and things will improve dramatically!

GH

[PArob]

GH,

Things really are moving in a good direction in your sitch, I can see so much progress and in case you haven't heard this lately, I think you deserve a lot of credit in getting there. You patience and tenacity are noteworthy and are something for all of us to aspire to.

In the end, I know that you and your W will have a much stronger and healthier relationship because you have had the vision to see your shortcomings and to apply the DB principles to your sitch. She is a very lucky women to have you in her life.

I don't have any advice to offer, I just wanted to be your cheerleader today!

[grasshopper]

I sound like I am rambling, but sounds like you are still on eggshells around her. this needs to stop, for your own sake and sanity. I did it for much too long, and to be honest, unnecessisarily so.

Actually, this is spot on cupcake. Thank you. Now that you say this, I really think one thing that has changed DRAMATICALLY in my R with my W is that we DO get mad at each other but it doesn't become this festering thing that permeates our R for days. This is especially true for me. I have learned to get angry, express myself and then MOVE ON without having to beat whatever the issue is to death.

That is what happened with all that stuff two nights ago and yesterday morning. By last night we both got it out of our system and were fine. Thanks again for your words, they really helped.

UPDATE:

W was REALLY sick last night. It always happens when she drinks as much as she did Sunday night. I was actually ready for it this time and FINALLY she went to see a doctor who basically said she had Panic Disorder and perscribed a med for that AND a sleep aid which should help a LOT. I can't say how big a step this is. We have been sitting in the doctor's office and walked out so many times. Finally she followed through with it. She was also honest with him about her drinking and he said it played a role in what was happening to her. She needed to hear that.

Anyway, today is a new day and I'll try to be egg shell free!

GH

[Cupcake]

Now THAT is a fabulous turn of events!

[grasshopper]

Thanks cc, ot and cm (there, managed to abbreviate you all!).

To follow up on my last update...

Yes, she saw the doctor and he told her she needed to see her family doctor ASAP. He also prescribed meds for her. She has yet to make an appointment or get her prescription filled. I asked her about it later the next day and she said she was going to do both but I know my W and if she didn't do it by then, she likely isn't.

I didn't really bring it up for the rest of the day. Like OT said, I am not going to take care of this for her. I will support her any way I can but I am no longer going to bug/nag her about it and if the sitch gets to the point where it's causing too much pain to anyone, I will just have to deal with it at that point. I don't think it will but like I said, I have been WAY too hands on in the past.

Yesterday on her own (she saw a commercial for some kind of anti-depressant med) she said "Oh, that's going to be me isn't it. The stay at home housewife/mom that is addicted to anti-depressants for the rest of her life."

I asked her if that was what was bothering her, the stigma (she has ALWAYS said this bothered her). She said not really and changed the subject. I didn't pry anymore but I know it's one of the big reasons she won't do anything about this stuff. That and the worst of me suspects it's because she'll have to quit the drinking if she goes on the meds and she doesn't want to do that.

She also said "What's the use trading one addiction for another one?" I have pointed out to her in the past that there are a lot of non-addictive drugs out there and to talk to a doctor but she refuses to hear me. Once again, I can't keep being daddy to her in all this.

-- when your W complains that you abandoned her far too often to take care of the kids herself, you seem to hear that she wanted you to take care of her and "fix" her. I hear that she wanted to continue to have a life outside of being a mother but that you kept her from that by being inconsiderate of her time. That is, she wanted space to be an adult and have friends and other interests, she did not want you to fix her or coddle her.

OT, as always, you come out with something really insightful. I KNEW this but reading it drove it home. It's what I am learning now. She wants be to be considerate of her and her time but not necessarily to "take care of her". I am really getting that message and my response, i.e. actually DOING that has paid off for sure.

-- I recommend ignoring this point. For some reason I feel compelled to say it, lol, but it probably isn't very useful for anyone. My guess is that you'll get sex pretty close to six months after she was last with OM, which is the period they tell you these days is pretty safe in terms of STDs.

Point taken. We'll see.

--Don't let your W dump on you, call her on it. For example, she seems to have been whining a bit about how she can't talk to you. (1) She can talk to you and is hurting you both and your R by withholding that kind of intimacy. (2) Whatever "happened" on Sunday which she did not tell you about is the real problem that is causing her distress and is likely a result of her own actions, again it is not your fault.

She claims, and I believe her, that nothing happened on Sunday other than her getting REALLY drunk. She was with me all day and almost literally never out of my sight so if there was some phone call or something, it was extremely short. She said she was just rambling on and anyway, what COULD have happened in the amount of time she would have had? Again, I agree. I though it was BS when she said it.

--Maybe time for some directness -- "W, I feel scared and insecure when you tell me there are things you can't tell me about. Part of this is because of the A, part of this is because I fear roadblocks to real emotional intimacy between the two of us. I'd really like you to trust me enough to share with me what happened on Sunday."

I have been direct about this before and in terms of "Sunday", see above. She's SEEMED to be much more open in the past month or so, almost totally transparent as they suggest someone trying to reestablish trust after an affair be. It's almost like she's read something because that's how dramatic the change was. She calls all the time when she's out and doesn't seem at all unhappy when I need reassurance about things. It's been kinda nice but of course as the artist formerly known as LBS, I don't 100% trust it yet. Time...time...time.

--Stop cleaning up your W's life messes caused by her drinking. She needs to clean up after herself.

Yep. Agree.

--It seems like W is really beginning to make some real shifts in her own life, and shifts that are in a positive direction :-) This is really wonderful news and I expect your R will reap the benefits.

Yes and no. She is taking baby steps and that's better than no steps at all. The problem is that she still thinks she can do everything herself. She is totally convinced that everything can be better, her anxiety, drinking, social issues, marriage, fatigue, car problems, etc, if she just wills it to be so. Mind over matter plays a LARGE part in her philosophy. The really positive thing is that she is now seeming to WANT to change and that is big.

I will keep you all posted when I can. For now, things are even, not too up, not too down. I am most afraid of the status quo these days but I'll even accept that so long as she keeps these little changes up. They WILL add up to something much bigger I think.

GH

[oldtimer]

Well, I'm not sure that use of antidepressants would count as an "addiction," but for the sake of argument, why trade one addiction for another? I say you give your W an answer.

An addiction to alcohol:
1) Damages your body.
2) Impairs your judgment causing you to make decisions that hurt yourself, your children, your husband, and your M.
3) Leads to actions that can cause serious injury and death involving yourself, loved ones, and others.
4) Creates and sustains depression.
5) Continues to progress and worsen as a disease over time with devastating consequences.
6) Creates an unstable and unsafe home life for your children.
7) Will probably lead to the end of your M if alcohol continues to be her chosen coping mechanism.
8) Makes one less and less functional in all areas of life over time
9) Makes her look haggard and old.
10) Leads to day-after regrets and hangovers that make one's life a life of lost time, shame, and sorrow.

In contrast, an "addiction" to anti-depressants:
1) Is likely to improve your health as you have more energy to exercise and eat better.
2) Unclouds your thinking, allowing you to make better decisions that affect yourself, your children, your husband, and your M.
3) Help you avoid actions that can cause serious injury and death involving yourself, loved ones, and others.
4) Alleviates depression.
5) May lead to not needing antidepressants at all.
6) Creates a stable and safe home life for your children.
7) Will probably really help make your M the healthy passionate R you both want.
8) Makes one more functional in all areas of life over time
9) Makes her look younger and happier.
10) Leads to a happy, productive life that one can rejoice in.

So, take her question seriously and give her your own list of pros and cons. Maybe she can come up with her own as well.

BTW, there is a difference between not nagging her about the meds or getting them yourself, and directly sharing your reaction to her not getting her meds.

"I am very disappointed and angry that you have not gotten those meds yet. I was very hopeful that you were in a place to move forward on some of your issues. But now, because you have not taken the steps you said you would, I feel very frustrated."

Anyway, please do say something. If you don't, it will come out in some other far less attractive way.

Hugs,
Oldtimer

[oldtimer]

I have also expressed my frustration at her not getting help, and in this specific case, I left the topic by saying "I am not going to bug you about this. You say you know what you need to do and you now have the tools to do it. It frustrates me that you aren't going to do it. I don't know what else I can do to encourage you. It's up to you now."

BRAVO!!!


Now, for an alternative approach to the question she asked, how about: "Honey, I'm wondering what you think are the differences between taking antidepressants to treat an anxiety disorder and using alcohol to cope?" That is, make HER answer the question.

Best,
Oldtimer

[grasshopper]

Whatis,

This feeling of being a failure is EXACTLY what my W describes. I forgot to use that in my posts, but she says that all the time. She feels that going the drug route is the "looser" route, but somehow the alcohol route (also a drug mind you) is somehow much better...oh, yea, I remember, because with alcohol she can stop whenever she wants...um...never heard THAT before.

I am VERY sensitive to her feelings about this and have actually changed my approach because of it. I am trying VERY hard to validate her fears while at the same time trying to encourage her to get over them and do what she can to help herself. I have said things like "I know it's easy for me to say 'go get the drugs' because it's not me having to take them. It must be scary to think about doing that. All I can say is that if a doctor told me there was some way I could stop some pain I was feeling, I hope I would at least give it a try. Why not just do that? Give it a try and if it turns out to be a bad experience, then do something else. In any event, I know you're scared and I understand."

She responds to these kinds of things but still doesn't do anything.

I will keep trying with the encouragement of you and OT.

GH

[grasshopper]

Now, for an alternative approach to the question she asked, how about: "Honey, I'm wondering what you think are the differences between taking antidepressants to treat an anxiety disorder and using alcohol to cope?" That is, make HER answer the question.

I haven't really asked her that directly but she's volunteered her opinion never-the-less. She's said the difference is that one is something she can do or not do and the other, well, is something "looser-ish", scary and addictive. She is TOTALLY convinced that she can quit drinking any time she wants to. These are either words of truth or words of addiction. The bottom line is that there is SO much more to it but the stigma I talked about with Whatis is really the main problem here. Somehow she thinks as soon as she takes a pill there will be some kind of sign that will appear on her forehead designating her a "weak looser housewife addicted to anti-depressants" whereas since nobody but me knows about her drinking habits, that is the more preferable route. I think even if everyone knew that she drank the way she sometimes does, she would still consider that the more "socially acceptable" way to "treat" this condition she has.

OT, I WILL try. I will not give up on this because she is SO close to getting REAL help for the first time since I have known her. She is SO close to sleeping through the night and not being afraid of being in the house alone. She is SO close to not being depressed and giving herself a chance to live a MUCH less stressful life.

I won't give up but I won't do it for her either.

GH

[whatisis]

Sounds good, GH but maybe just try to validate her feelings. We guys love to bring in the intellectual stuff and fix things. When you say "if the doctor told me..." it kind of reinforces her feelings of being a loser cuz once again she's wrong. I know that's not the intent (and I do it too!) but just a point for you to ponder. Lots and lots of people go through what she is, it's common so she's not alone. I guess, as you said, in her mind having a drink is a choice she makes whereas medication is a necessity. In our society it is much more acceptable to have a few drinks to unwind than to have to, God forbid,take medication for depression. Stigma talks loud. Hang in GH, you're on her side and that will talk even louder in the end.

[grasshopper]

BTW, at some point you need to get back to figuring out what YOUR boundary is on this.... Personally, I would not stay with someone who would not try to get help for a debilitating condition that hurt me and my children and chose instead to engage in selfish, destructive behavior to avoid the pain.

Well, this is NOT to say it's right, but she has not really changed much since the day I met her in most of the things I talk about. Does that make me destructive to have married her, and had kids with her? Maybe. Maybe I wanted to save her, I don't know, but I do know that I am a LONG way from my boundary in terms of these things. I don't plan on living this way forever, but I do plan on living the way I am personally living, with all that i have learned over the past year, and I am willing to see if that makes a difference in our overall sitch. If not, and that is clear to me, then it's time to think about other outcomes. I KNOW I can't fix her. I am just trying to fix myself and then live the best I can. I hope she chooses to do the same and if my leading by example can help, then I will certainly do it.

As for your #1, like I said, anytime I try to present her with info like this, she puts up her wall. It's part of how our relationship has gone thus far and something that I want to change but for now it's not.

The fact about #2 is that she doesn't know and in terms of #1 & #2, that's why I want her to see a doctor and really get the facts about all this. Coming from someone else, I think it may sink in. Coming from me, it's just more of the same "anti-drinking/drugs" stuff from me she's heard a million times throughout our marriage.

GH

[oldtimer]

The fact about #2 is that she doesn't know ...

Oh come on, yes she does. She isn't stupid. But, she may be afraid or avoiding what the difference looks like. The point is to get her to really think about the question FOR HERSELF, rather than dismissing it in an offhand manner by appealing to one of oft-played empty pieces of rhetoric.

"Honey, I'm not real sure what the REAL differences would be once you were passed understandable fears about trying somethijng new. What do YOU think the differences would be in terms of your life, happiness, and relationships if you coped for awhile using antidepressants versus using alcohol during that time?"

Notice, I did not say ABusing.... Tempting though it is, that is just piling on judgment.

BTW, is it really fair to your W not to let her know that in the long-term it is a dealbreaker for her not to try to work on her issues in a more productive manner than using alcohol. You are setting yourself up to be a WAS yourself -- not telling her what your boundaries are but preparing mentally in the distant future to leave if she violates them.

Best,
Oldtimer

[frank_D]

This was in todays daily e-mail from the 'makingherhappy' website, which I encourage all men to subscribe to:


"A woman knows, instinctively, without ever being told, as a result of biological development through the ages, that if a man can't stand up TO her, he cannot stand up FOR her."

[PArob]

You GO my man!

One other thing that occurred to me as I have been posting over the past few weeks is that most of what I am now posting about are the actual core issues of my marriage, NOT anything having to do with the affair, etc

Interesting observation and, in hindsight, you are absolutely correct. Obviously on some level you both have turned a corner and are now focusing on the core relationship issues. Keep up the good work!

[NotMarried]

WHOO-HOO for you!!!

[PArob]

It's almost like I have my own cheerleading squad in the bedroom!

Dude, I am NOT wearing a cheerleading skirt for you no matter how much I like you

Keep up the good work!

[PositivelyListening]

Thank you all for your encouragment. It's almost like I have my own cheerleading squad in the bedroom!

Well yes, you do!! But try not to think about that while you're there. You'll bust up laughing right in the middle and your wife will think ???

[grasshopper]

Give me a T...
Give me a I...
Give me a....

Ok, you're right. I can't start down this path or I will be in SERIOUS trouble the next time anything starts to happen.

W: Honey, what are you looking at?
M: Nothing (kissing her).
W: No, I swear you were looking at something over there.
M: Well, I guess I was. You see, there are these people dressed in cheerleading outfits over there rooting me on.
W: Um...is this some desperate way you came up with to tell me you'd like me to wear a cheerleading cosutume to bed?
M: Um...no...it's just that there are all these people we don't really know that are so happy I "got some" and now I have this vision of them in my head, all dressed up as cheerleaders, doing little cheers everytime I make a move.
W: Get off me you strange, strange man...I knew you changed but this is a little weird even for the "new you"...

GH

[grasshopper]

This past weekend I also initiated , which is something I haven't done in years.

So does that mean you are x2 in the ML department? I guess I am greedy because until I get the second under my belt I won't really believe it wasn't just a weak moment from an otherwise abstaining woman. I know that's cynical but...

So, you move your thread. I can't bring myself to do that. I guess it's just the comfort of the people I know here. Maybe I should move eventually too.

GH

[PositivelyListening]

Well, GH, we will come with you, even if you start piecing Which I believe you are doing, correct? I am proud of you. And I as part of your loyal cheerleading squad, look forward to hearing about the x2 and x3 and on and on until it's such a normal occurence you don't remember what it's like NOT to... Anyway, GH, I just want to say that it might be healthy for you to let go of "Infidelity" as the cornerstone of your sitch, and to take on that your R is evolving. BTW, I am very proud of all the work you have done. Keep at it. The P/A thing you have struggled with is NASTY if you are on the other side. My birth mother was P/A with me last week, wanted something and couldn't be straight with me about it. Makes me not want to be around her. So don't ever let "normal" take you back there. So what would it look like to have "normal" be a little "spicy" once in a while? Bring some surprise in to your life tonight, K? Rooting for you, as always.