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Continuing from part 2.... Part 2


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CV - Just a thought. My H snores like a buzz saw. Seriously, I used to complain about it ALL THE TIME. I tried ear plugs before, but got irritated with H, because he should just either quit snoring (i.e., breathing LOL) or use the throat spray. He did neither.

Since the bomb, and the fact that I'm trying not to sweat the small stuff, I bought a pair of silicone ear plugs. These things have saved my life. And H couldn't even tell I was wearing them. He still wouldn't know, but I told him one day when he told me something about sorry for keeping me up one night.

If for no other reason than you want to get a good night's sleep - GET THE EARPLUGS!


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Thanks, Ro, for the info. I'll keep that in mind. I'm glad they work so well for you. S has earplugs we got him for going to the movie theater years back. They might even be silicone.

I sleep perfectly well in the other bedroom. It's funny because I've always said someone should do a sleep study on me, to learn how TO sleep. I could count on both hands the number of times I've had insomnia in my life. I guess my real resistance to this is that I would not even consider ear plugs for my own benefit - don't need them. But apparently I'm supposed to consider them for H's benefit because he wants me to sleep in the same bed, yet he won't wear his cpap. The initial irritation you expressed about your H not doing his part is exactly where I would be.


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"Point is, I'm don't want a big response from H. I don't really even want any response from him right now, I just want to stop doing things that are interpreted as being offensive, by him or anyone.

Phase one, baby steps."


OK, baby steps...

You know, you need to play it cool. Do one thing very subtly and let it play out. Then wait awhile and do something else.

I really wish Sandi would drop by because she is going to be able to help you in ways that I can't.

Don't get me wrong, I'm happy to provide my perspective on things, I'm just not sure if my perspective is always the best for the WAW. After all I'm struggling through my own fun at the moment and I'm the LBS. frown


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I thought you said H doesn't have sleep apnea? Then why does he have a CPAP? If he has one, he needs to use it... When was the last time he went to a sleep specialist? What if you go to one together with the aim of coming up with a solution to the sharing the bed problem?


And drop the tit for tat, it is never helpful in life.


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I get it, 2, I really do. That's why I said I'm in such a weird place. I think most people here are in your shoes, and the advice is usually all about doing 180's and getting them back. I'm struggling really hard to even want to go back.

I agree, Sandi might be able to help. I read a lot of my own thoughts when I went through her first year of posts. I'm not dealing with the OM like she did, but certainly the lack of desire for my H in ANY manner. It's so good of her to spend time here still, when her sitch has reconciled so well and she could be off and running.

Would you mind just adding a little meat to some of the points you made in your response to my Saturday events? I really am looking for alternatives to being interrogating, passive aggressive, antagonistic, provocative, itching for an altercation, shaming, sarcastic and patronizing. LOL! What a list! Maybe just pretend like the interaction was between you and me (not H and W) and what I should have done instead. Is that possible?


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Originally Posted By: Crazyville
... Would you mind just adding a little meat to some of the points you made in your response to my Saturday events? I really am looking for alternatives to being interrogating, passive aggressive, antagonistic, provocative, itching for an altercation, shaming, sarcastic and patronizing. LOL! What a list! Maybe just pretend like the interaction was between you and me (not H and W) and what I should have done instead. Is that possible?


OK, look inside the quotation box below for my additional comments which are in blue font.

Originally Posted By: 2thepoint
"I asked him that if he still wanted to talk about it, why did he respond so negatively when I inquired about the email? He explained that it was because the last words we had Friday night and the first words we had Saturday morning were an interrogation by me about the email. He said he was annoyed because I was hounding him about it, that he didn't appreciate being hunted down and nagged about it while he was on the treadmill."

As I was reading your post I was searching for the right word to describe how I was interpreting your interaction with your H and what you write above I think describes it pretty well.... Interrogation.

I'm not sure your H really knows what he wants out of a M. I think he knows he wants something but has a hard time articulating what it is, thus he goes the easy route and on to the internet looking for answers.

"So I asked him how he knows that that's what God wants, and if he could point me to some scripture verses. That wasn't received well...."

This ^^^ seems a little argumentative and antagonistic to me.

The vision I have when I read this part is you are standing over him with your arms crossed and cynically telling him to "prove it!"

How do you think he might have responded if you and him looked through the Bible together in search of the answer? Something like..."H you said this is what God wants. I'm interested in learning more, can we look through the Bible together and see what it says about this?" In this way you are sort of taking a more collaborative approach and working together to become part of the solution


"I said that I could go out on the Web myself, but I wanted to know HIS foundation of belief."

Again, this ^^^ seems antagonistic...

I read this as saying, "Look H, I think you are full of crap and I can prove it, but I'm not going to waste my time!" It would probably have been best if you didn't even go down this path.

"Anyway, I emailed him back Fri morning asking if he had actually read the article that he sent me. He said he had, sort of, while we were talking, so I suggested he might want to read it again more slowly."

A little condescension maybe?

OK, so you busted him here. He really didn't read what he sent you and so you nailed his nutts to the wall. And, when you say read it again "more slowly" you're really putting him on the defensive and he probably felt like you viewed him as stupid. If that was your intent, you succeeded.

If it was necessary to touch on this, maybe it would have been more productive to pull out a few selected quotes and ask him to help you understand what he is thinking, because you're not getting it.


"Some time after he got home, maybe about 6:00, I asked him if he reread the article, he said yes. I asked if he still believed it, and he said yes. I said okay, that's all I needed to know."

I'm puzzled by this. "that's all I need to know" seems very provocative and even a little passive aggressive.

So when you said "that's all I need to know" what were you thinking? What do you think your H thinks you were thinking? I interpret your comment as saying, "H, you've just confirmed for me that you are a stupid." And, I'll bet that is how he felt after you said what you did.

"...checked my email and noticed I hadn't gotten an email from H like he said he was going to do some 14 hours prior. I thought that's what he was doing on his laptop. So I went downstairs where H was paused on the treadmill watching tv and asked him if he had sent the email."

Why the scorecard? And if you hadn't received the email, why interrogate him about whether or not her sent it if you know he didn't? It just seems like you are itching for an altercation....or to prove yourself right, maybe?

Here is where I would say that there is a time and place for everything and this wasn't the time or the place. If he hadn't responded "14 hours later" (oh and BTW why were you keeping track? Score keeping I presume?) I would have dropped it until the issue came up again, and then I would have said something like, "I was waiting for that email you said you were going to send" and leave it at that. No need to escalate.

"I was finished eating and finished cleaning the kitchen ready to leave, so I asked H if he had sent the email. He said no and the tone of his voice was obviously irritated -- the prelude to an argument."

Of course he is going to get irritated. You've been harping on the email and he is becoming defensive. Maybe he realizes he picked the wrong battle with you but you keep coming back at him and he is feeling shamed into reacting.

I don't really have anything else to add to this ^^^^.

"A little later when he was done in the kitchen, he said again that he was going to send me the email and wanted to discuss it. I said it wasn't necessary because it was obviously a high-conflict topic, and there really wasn't anything to discuss. He could hold whatever opinion he wanted regarding marriage and I had no comment to share. He kept trying to ask me my thoughts, but I kept declining, stating that it doomed for failure based upon his initial aggressive response."

So now after you have been pressing for him to send you the email, you tell him it is not necessary. TBH, I'd be pretty PO'd at this point. Again, it just seems very passive aggressive.

You pushed him for the email, so you should have let him send it. By pressing the issue over and over and then telling him to basically forget it, it really comes across a lot like Charlie Brown and Lucy with the football. Go ahead Charlie, kick the ball, I won't pull the ball away... promise wink

"The big problem I have is that this is how I act with everybody. If my behavior is that inappropriate, I want to know because I'm apparently offending everyone."

OK, this is how I'm reading things based upon what you wrote above. You have a lot of pent up anger, frustration, resentment, etc. and it comes out in all of your interactions with your H. I don't know if this is how you deliver messages to your H but when I read your post I read sarcasm, condescension, and a thoroughly patronizing tone. Is it possible your H hears it the same way?

And if he does, can you see how the dynamic between you two will never change as long as he feels threatened and shamed and talked down to?


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Thanks 2!

Quote:
I read this as saying, "Look H, I think you are full of crap and I can prove it, but I'm not going to waste my time!" It would probably have been best if you didn't even go down this path.
Okay, to be completely honest, I do think he's full of cr@p. Would it have been offensive if I had simply said, "I don't believe it does say that, but I could be wrong and I would be happy to consider anything you'd like to point me to."? I'm really not up for sitting down and looking through the bible with him, especially when I believe he is wrong. Also, I feel like that's putting him in a position where I will literally be working with him and ultimately pointing out that he's wrong, and to me, that would be more in line with "proving" it.

Quote:
If it was necessary to touch on this, maybe it would have been more productive to pull out a few selected quotes and ask him to help you understand what he is thinking, because you're not getting it.
Can you tell me how that would be different than my asking him to explain his belief that God wants us to sleep in the same bed? I feel like any time I ask for an explanation, I'm being offensive somehow, yet now you're suggesting I should.

Quote:
So when you said "that's all I need to know" what were you thinking? What do you think your H thinks you were thinking?
I was thinking his clearly different perception of himself was going to result in a huge conflict if I attempted to discuss it with him. Since he was unable to see his own shortcomings in light of the marriage definition, it meant we were simply on completely different planets when it came defining the problems in the relationship. Since we communicate so ineffectively, I believed any further conversation about the topic would be monumental, unsuccessful, and pointless. I wasn't going to try to correct him -- he's entitled to his perspective. I don't really know what he thought, although he still keeps asking me what issues I had with it. I've reluctantly given him two.

Quote:
I would have dropped it until the issue came up again, and then I would have said something like, "I was waiting for that email you said you were going to send" and leave it at that. No need to escalate.
I'm having a difficult time distinguishing the difference between two instances where in one case, the approach is bad, and in another the same approach is good. You indicated it would have been good if I had offered/asked to sit down with him and look up scriptural references for sleeping in the same bed, but when I do attempt to work/talk with him about his definition for marriage, I've done something wrong because I pursued the email.

Would it be good/reasonable to just sit and wait for him to initiate/drive? I can do that, but I feel so checked out of the relationship if I do. Like the conversation in the car, he just doesn't invest. Like the email, he'll often say he's going to do something and then never does. I don't know how to tell when I'm helping the relationship or hurting it. It seems like I'm just always wrong.

Quote:
You pushed him for the email, so you should have let him send it. By pressing the issue over and over and then telling him to basically forget it, it really comes across a lot like Charlie Brown and Lucy with the football. Go ahead Charlie, kick the ball, I won't pull the ball away.
It's interesting that you would say that I'M the one doing that. I would have said the same thing about him. He says he wants to engage with me, but then doesn't send the email. When I come to him and want to engage, by asking for the email, he complains that I'm hounding him. So I say nevermind, and then suddenly he won't leave it alone. If I initiated a conversation tonight, because he last said he still wanted to talk about it, he would be resistant. (That reminds me, my Sole Partner book came and it has a chapter on this dance, I believe. I need to go read that.) In any case, I would say my actions are responsive, not leading, but I'm trying to apply what you're saying.

Looking for a plan going forward, incorporating everything you're suggesting. I have to admit that I'm so gun-shy right now, that I'm afraid to say much of anything to him. Would it be wrong to do absolutely nothing to work on the relationship until he brings it up or makes a suggestion? Honestly, he might never. He claims he just never knows how to initiate or what to talk about.


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Well I read the chapter in Solo Partner on pursuit and distance between partners. I haven't even read the rest of the book but already it was well worth the money. I can't imagine why it isn't in print anymore.

Some of it is just a bit off for us, but the principles are "right on." The best description for us, right at the beginning of the chapter is, "Only when she is thoroughly fed up and wanted nothing further to do with him would he be willing to work on their relationship. But as soon as she became reinvolved with him, he lost interest and became cold, distant, and irresponsible again." Not surprising, to me anyway, it said that 80% of pursuers are women, and 80% of distancers are men.

I see this in major things as well as these little exchanges. If I want to participate, he doesn't. When I say nevermind, then he's hounding me to participate. Gardening, which is not even that big of a hobby for me anymore, is now some sort of relational necessity just because I don't want him to.

The book goes on to talk about how I need to completely disengage. Not do things with him, not have sex if I don't want to, not to engage at all, and that I should do this until I'm sure he has changed. That's the only real question I have -- how do I know when he's really changed? I've been duped before, many times, so I'm pretty doubtful of any change being real.

It's almost surreal reading it and relating it to my sitch and what I read on this board. It basically explains why women have to D their husbands before they get their attention. Trying to improve it inside the M actually makes it worse for them. It explains further the DB principle of not begging, pleading, etc. to get your WAS back, except it's coming at it from the approach of the future WAS inside the M.

But the women need it as much as the men, because they need to work on themselves. I'm still sorting through what the book says we're supposed to work on, but it sounds like we need to be cold to our H's, in order to keep them engaged and wanting to pursue us. Basically, play hard to get. Go totally against our natural tendencies to care and nurture and be emotionally involved with our Hs, because that just shuts them down. I certainly have my history of failed attempts to prove it. (And if this is true, it's another question I'll be asking God if I ever get an audience with Him.)


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Oh, and the really interesting part. It says I am absolutely NOT supposed to show this chapter to my distancing H. Apparently, it's supposed to be a very difficult and miserable experience for him, to be totally figured out by him, and probably take a long time to do so. It reads that if you're a distancer reading the book, just skip the chapter or hand it to your pursuing spouse. LOL!! Evidently, as a pursuer, our direct approach of facing the problem head on and digging in doesn't work. (I always thought the fix-it concept was a guy thing? Maybe it's different because it's relationally.)


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