I am new to the forum but have been reading the posts for weeks. Here is my story and I will describe the main points so as not to get te extended right now:
-Married 12 years, 3 kids, she is 36 and I am 36. -WAW: She has been diagnosed once as bipolar, had a histerectomy and ovaries removed due to complications, so she takes estrogens (early menopause) -I suffer from the NiceGuy Syndrome (see: http://www.nomoremrniceguy.com) Some of you may have heard about it. -Wife told me she does not love me anymore and wants to be alone about a month ago. We (I) decided that the best was for me to leave to give her space as I did not want to complicate things anymore with my kids and wife. -While I left, she is the WAW and shows many of the typical behaviors: convinced that there is nothing can be done, as if a light went off. -I had begun working on my self a month before this happened but only on changing my niceguy behaviors (very damaging by the way) but started doing DB a week after I left. -Have read Divorce Busting and many of the info on this site. -I am attending therapy and have a spiritual counselor which is helping me more than the regular therapist.
I wish I could go into more details but I am afraid no one will read a long post and I need help as I am seeing some improvements at times but it is very hard to keep hopes up.
I guess my question at this point would be that I find it confusing that I am this very positive and outgoing person with my wife right now, and she is reacting positively to this but at the same time I worry that she thinks I am so OK with this that she will have no intention to change. Make any sense?
If nobody read long post.....man, I would be in serious trouble!! I'm afraid I am getting quite a rep about that around the board...lol.
Anyway, I am so glad you came here. This is a slower moving forum than the Newcomers, so if you don't get very many responses, move over to Newcomers. This one is so far down the list, it is almost forgotten about.
The more information you can give us, the more we will know what to say to you. So, to help, I'll start out by asking some questions. What are some signs, other than those you told us about, that makes you think your wife may want out of the M? Is she on any anti-depression meds? Is she taking meds for her bi-polar? Were the two of you having a good R before the surgery? Has she shown any signs that might hint of a MLC? Do you suspect she could be making contact with OM? I know all of this seems very personal. If you have read very much at all on this board, then you know we do get down and personal b/c that is where we live and we don't get anything accomplished without being totally honest here on the board.
Tell us some more about yourself. Does your work keep you from home? Are you into porn? Have you ever had an EA or PA? Are you the type that tends to control things a bit too much? Does your W work outside the home....and if so, do you leave the house chores for her to do after working all day.
I know, I don't beat around the bush. This will help us to know if any of these things ring true. In the meantime, I have a list that perhaps you have seen on another post. I call it my quick look/see list to go by instead of trying to find it in the book. BTW, I hear that the DR book is more updated that the DB, but you can probably get about as much reading post here on the bb, if you will stick with it. It is very important that you keep coming back and that you read other threads. The more you post, the more help and responses you'll receive....okay.
Take care of yourself. I wished you had not moved out, but hopefully it won't be for long. Don't file for a D even if she asks. Take good care of yourself.
Sandi
Here's the list: 1.Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore! This turn the spouse completely off! 2. No frequent phone calls to spouse.......let him/her be the one to call you. Then don't try to hang on to your spouse through conversation.....instead, you say good-bye first. 3. Do not point out good points in marriage or try to get him/her to read marriage books, etc. 4. Do not follow your spouse around the house like a puppy dog trying to get his/her time and attention. (Remember, you are drawing your spouse back with this technique.) 5. Do not encourage talk about the future. 6. Do not ask for help from family members. 7. Do not ask for reassurances (That is showing neediness and being clingy.) 8. Do not buy gifts. (Can't buy his/her love and affection.) 9. Do not schedule dates together. (That is pursuing.) 10.Do not spy on spouse. (Not good for you and will make matters worse.) 11.Do not say "I Love You" (It is being "pushy" and trying to make your spouse say it too......he/she will despise you for it.) 12.Act "as if" you are moving on with your life! 13.Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive at all times! 14.Don't sit around waiting on your spouse – get busy, think of things to do. Go to church, go out with friends, etc. 15.When at home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation---then don't, wait for him/her) then, be scarce or short on words, but don't sound rude. If your spouse asks what's wrong....just say "nothing". Keep it short and simple. Don't get into an argument! Stay polite and don’ t act like you are pouting. 16.If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his/her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING!! No matter what time he/she comes home! 17.You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse. 18.Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what he/she will be missing. (But never ask him/her if he/she has noticed any changes!!) 19.No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Show your spouse someone he/she would want to be around, somebody that is attractive and fun. 20.All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while) 21.Never lose your cool! Don't let your spouse trap you into a fight. 22.Don't be overly enthusiastic, don't over-kill, b/c it will come across as fake. 23.Do not argue about how your spouse feels about something (it only makes his/her feelings more negative.) 24.Be patient......very, very patient. Give your spouse space and time. 25.Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you. Look them in the eyes when they talk to you. 26.Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out (or scream and yell). 27.Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil) 28.Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly. Read self help books, inspirational books or listen to tapes. 29.Know that if you can do 180's, your smallest CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write. 30.Do not be openly show that you are "desperate" or "needy" even when you are hurting more than ever and truly feel desperate and needy. 31.Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse 32.Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because he/she is hurting and scared. 33.Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel. 34.Do not backslide from your hard earned changes.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
How can I move this to the newcomers forum. SHould I just start a new thread and copy what I wrote here?
I will try to answer your questions. I know from reading the posts for the last few weeks that this is a place where people help, so I will offer all info I can.
As for your questions I will answer in your text.
[i]What are some signs, other than those you told us about, that makes you think your wife may want out of the M? When she dropped the bomb she had implied that the best was to get a divorce because she had stopped loving me a long time ago, first she said 2 years, then 3 years, then 4, up to to 5 years she said she had stopped loving me. At the same time she said I deserved someone better than her and what was the point in being with her if she was no longer useful as a woman, I assume referring to her histerectomy. Is she on any anti-depression meds? She has been taking CIPRAMIL for about 4 years Is she taking meds for her bi-polar? No. As far as I can recall, she has had these bi-polar traits for many years. It was only until about 6 or 7 months ago that a Dr. gave her a test and told her she was bipolar. She started taking a medicine called CONCERTA but it was terrible and she went back to CIPRAMIL which is not medication for bipolar. I feel this is a big part of the problem. Were the two of you having a good R before the surgery? Our relationship has always been good, I guess even before the surgery my wife had a strong decline in her sexual desire and then after the surgery it declined even more. I think my Nice Gy issues made things worse too.
Has she shown any signs that might hint of a MLC? I am not certain. What are the signs of MLC in a 36 yr old woman? Do you suspect she could be making contact with OM? I have been asked this question by many people and the answer is No. I have not seen, heard, felt, or suspected or had any reason to suspect OM.
[i]Tell us some more about yourself. Does your work keep you from home? No, I may travel 2 or 3 times a year for one week, so I am always home. In fact one of the things my wife complains about is that I never go out with friends, that I do not have a life outside of our marriage. This is true and I know this suffocates her. I am working on this. Are you into porn? No I am not into porn but you will understand that when your wife have has had sex with you about 6-8 times this year I would tell you that I have had to use other methods in order to not go crazy. What I have not done and will not do is cheat on my wife. Have you ever had an EA or PA? No, no, no. In this regard God gave me so much strength that it is not even an issue. I value my loyalty to my wife more than anything.
Are you the type that tends to control things a bit too much? Yes, but in an indirect way and this tends to cause problems as it creates a lot of resentment. The premise of the Nice Guy syndrome is that nice guys try to control all situations around them, and caretake and never say no or create conflict and smother our wife so that in turn all of our needs our met. When this does not happen as we expect we start resenting our partner and acting like pouty little boys. Very frustrating.
Does your W work outside the home....and if so, do you leave the house chores for her to do after working all day. No, she does not work. She (with my help if you can believe it) is starting up a dog grooming business, so she is taking a 3 week intensive course on dog grooming and it is actually a good thing. I feel she has been feeling very empty the last few years as if she has no purpose in life. Well she has mentioned this a few times. AS for helping around the house, as a niceguy I have helped so much that my wife complains that I never let her do anything. She feels smothered by my constant quest to fix every little problem. So here is the reverse, I need to be more of the typical lazy husband.
It is very difficult because even though my wife got to the point were she felt she just could not be with me anymore, once the intial shock stage passed in me,and after about 2 weeks, I started applying DB behavior and she is not showing any signs that this is final. She calls me 2-3 times a day, sometimes just to tell my how her things are going or to talk about the kids, she has been more receptive to me in the last few weeks than in the last 3 years, she speaks about the future, as in she wants to put in a new garage door, things like that. Aside from the day of the bomb, she has not mentioned once the divorce word. The only bad thing is when she gets stressed out I get very negative and gloomy.
I thank you for any and all advice you can offer. The list you sent is very good BTW.
Wow! Bless your heart. I never had anyone to actually try to answer ALL my questions! You did a great job.
Before I forget to tell you, why not give this forum another few days and if nobody else reponds, then I can tell you how to move over to the Newcomers. You just don't want to bounce your thread all over the place. However, you can go to other forums and read and respond to their threads all you want and can tell them where your thread is, if you want them to give you advice.
Well, since we both are "wordy" (lol), I'll try to respond to the things you said.
Of course I am no doctor, but I have been on several different med for depression over the years and I have also had a histerectomy. Bipolar is something that has only come to the public's awareness in the recent years. I suppose it is like other conditions in that there are degrees of it. However, I have read and heard that if a person does not stay on their medication (if they have it to a great degree) then it will get them into a bad situation quickly. Again, I'm no doctor, but I think they have to have more than just the anti-depression meds. They have to have something to keep them on an even keel so they don't have the extreme ups and downs. My former SIL has that and it has been the worst case I've ever known. It is nothing to look the other way about, for sure.
All of her health issues combined, I think, has taken a toll on her attitude toward sex. I can tell you that anti-depression meds will certainly take the sex drive away from you. Some are a lot worse than others. As far as the surgery, I could not tell that had an affect on me.....in fact, I was more relaxed and didn't worry about getting pregnant. However, I did put off having the surgery for years b/c I had heard horror stories about how women "are" after surgery. Apparently, your wife heard the same stories. She needs to have a professial explain to her that she is still just as much a woman as before and in fact can enjoy sex more.....if she would allow herself to. I have heard a lot of women say that it takes them longer to get into the mood to have sex, after the surgery, but, I suppose it depends on the individual.
It sounds more like she shut down emotionally years ago. That is what happened to me and I can tell you that it is very hard to pull out of that. Her Biploar will not help her in that area, for sure.
I think I have a list I got from some post here about some of the MLC signs. For women, it is mostly seeing a restlessness in them. Seeing changes in them as far as physical appearances.....new hair color or different hair cuts, wearing sexier clothes, wearing more make-up, listening to a different type of music.....or trying to go back to high school days and listen to that music. Wanting to go out to "party" or acting in ways that would resemble a much younger, single person. Mostly them wanting to go back in time and "replay" their youth. If she is trying to look a lot younger and sexier.....then that is a pretty certain sign. To me, 36 is still very young, but a lot of women see that big 40 coming at them and panic and think their youth is over! I didn't have that problem until I was about to turn 60! (lol) So, I had a delayed reaction.
It is great that you have seen no signs of any OM. However, if she is into a WAW frame of mind......that could be the next step. Don't think b/c she is a Christian or a good mother or a real "lady" or any other reason, that she wouldn't. Believe me, I would be the last person on earth that you would have expected to get involved with OM on-line. How disgusting is that? I never met him in real life, but, it almost destroyed my M. It just goes to prove that when a woman is very unhappy in her M, she is likely to do anything!!
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In fact one of the things my wife complains about is that I never go out with friends, that I do not have a life outside of our marriage. This is true and I know this suffocates her. I am working on this.
This was something that always drove me absolutely crazy! I need my space and able to "breathe". I also felt like I was suffocating. You need to get a life outside the house and away from her. You will give her space and also become more attractive to her. I would suggest that you read Dr. James Dobson's book, "Love Must Be Tough". He goes along with Michelle's teachings, so there would be no conflict there. But, he explains how the more we try to hold our loved one closer to us, the more they will resist us and pull away from us. That is human nature when your loved one is wanting to leave you. So, you need to pull back and let the pressure off of her. Look at that long list I gave you......and apply it.
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Are you into porn? No I am not into porn but you will understand that when your wife have has had sex with you about 6-8 times this year I would tell you that I have had to use other methods in order to not go crazy. What I have not done and will not do is cheat on my wife.
Good for you! And, yes, I do understand. But, I asked b/c a lot of men get into porn b/c they have not rec'd sex from their W's and then more problems occur.
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Have you ever had an EA or PA? No, no, no. In this regard God gave me so much strength that it is not even an issue. I value my loyalty to my wife more than anything.
Again, this is great to hear. I also assume that you are a Christian (Is that correct?) and it is important to you to live in obedience to God and be faitful to your W. By not being involved in past affairs, that helps us know where you are now and where you've been.
From the rest of your post it sounds to me that if you will work on the "controlling issues" and back off and give her plenty of space and don't try to "fix" her or her problems.....things will begin to get better a lot faster. Women do not want you to "fix" their problems, they only want you to "listen" when they talk about it. If she wants you to fix anything....she will let you know!
I think she feels that she is less valuable and attractive as a female after her surgery. I believe her self-esteem is very low now. So, your job is to valadate her every chance you get. Don't over-kill. Don't make it appear "fake". But whenever you can slip a compliment into the conversation....do it. When you are talking to others about her....in front of her....brag on her. Tell her how "hot" she looks when she dresses up. In other words, say something different than the usual line that most H's say to their W's....like, "You look nice"......ugh. When she talks.....look into her eyes so she will know you are interested in what she is saying. Don't be reading the paper or watching TV while she is trying to talk to you. If you don't know what to say....just nod your head. If she is talking about the R and you don't agree with what she says.....don't get into an argument, just say that you are sorry she feels that way, but that you will try to see it from her point of view.
Try to become her friend for now. She isn't interested in sex at the moment.....so forget that part for now. You've got to DB in order to make her feel comfortable around you. You've got to become attractive to her again. So, become the man you were when she first fell in love with you. Take a good long look at yourself...inside and out....and see what changes need to be improved upon. Then get busy! Don't ask her if she notices any changes. Don't tell her what you are doing. Just do it!!
I will talk to you tomorrow. In the meantime, please work at what I have told you and what the DR book says. You have your work cut out for you, but she has not left and you have a good chance in saving this M. Do not leave yourself and don't help her to leave the house for a separation! Try not to talk about the R for now. Avoid agruments. R talks lead to arguments.
Take care of yourself. Look good enough for her to want to eat you up! Smell sexy and act sexy. Don't act and talk like a husband. Act and talk like her best friend......for now.
Sandi
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
THANKS AGAIN, I WILL FOLLOW YOUR ADVICE AND CONTINUE TO DB.
SOMETHING IMPORTANT HAPPENED YESTERDAY. WE AGREED TO MEET UP AT MY DAUGHTER'S HIGH SCHOOL FOR HER CHEERLEEDING COMPETITION. I ARRIVED FIRST AND I WOULD NORMALLY WEAR SHORTS AND A SPORTS SHIRT WITH SNEAKERS TO THESE TYPES OF THINGS AND I KNOW SHE HATES THAT. SO I DRESSED A BIT BETTER AND SINCE I HAVE BEEN EATING RIGHT AND EXCERSICING Y FEEL LIKE I LOOK A BIT BETTER (I HOPE). ANYWAY WHEN THIS ORDEAL FIRST STARTED SHE HAD SAID SHE WAS NOT COMFORTABLE THAT WE KISS WHEN WE SAID HELLO OR GOODBYE SO THIS HAS BEEN VERY DIFFICULT TO ACCEPT. ANYWAY YESTERDAY WHEN WE MET UP AT THE SCHOOL SHE GREETED ME WITH A KISS!! NOW IT MAY HAVE BEEN A SLIP ON HER PART AND IT WAS A SIMPLE PECK BUT A KISS IS STILL A KISS. I SHOULD BE SO HAPPY BUT SHE CAUGHT ME SO OF GUARD WHEN SHE DID IT THAT I TURNED MY HEAD SLIGHLTY AS IN MY MIND AND MY STUPID BRAIN WANTED TO TELL HER "HEY REMEMBER YOU DONT WANT TO KISS ME!". I HOPE THIS MAKES SENSE TO SOMEONE. IN ANY CASE I FEEL THIS IS AT THE VERY LEAST A GOOD SIGN AND I WILL TRY TO REMAIN STEADY WITH MY DB ATTITUDE SO AS NOT TO MELT AND RUIN IT ALL. I WOULD LOVE TO HEAR ANYONES OPINION ON THIS
That sounds good to me! You showed a 180 by dressing nicer. As for the "kiss", I doubt it was a slip-up on her part. But, do continue to let her make the moves b/c next time, she may be in a totally different mood. You never know what to expect from WAW's, so don't set yourself up for disappointment. Contine to act up-beat as much as possible when around her and the kids. Look good and act good even when you're not around her b/c others will tell her about it.
Stay in touch with the days to come. You can always come her to ven your frustations or ask questions. Take small baby steps of accomplishments. The mount up.
Take care, Sandi
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
THANKS AGAIN, I WILL FOLLOW YOUR ADVICE AND CONTINUE TO DB.
SOMETHING IMPORTANT HAPPENED YESTERDAY. WE AGREED TO MEET UP AT MY DAUGHTER'S HIGH SCHOOL FOR HER CHEERLEEDING COMPETITION. I ARRIVED FIRST AND I WOULD NORMALLY WEAR SHORTS AND A SPORTS SHIRT WITH SNEAKERS TO THESE TYPES OF THINGS AND I KNOW SHE HATES THAT. SO I DRESSED A BIT BETTER AND SINCE I HAVE BEEN EATING RIGHT AND EXCERSICING Y FEEL LIKE I LOOK A BIT BETTER (I HOPE). ANYWAY WHEN THIS ORDEAL FIRST STARTED SHE HAD SAID SHE WAS NOT COMFORTABLE THAT WE KISS WHEN WE SAID HELLO OR GOODBYE SO THIS HAS BEEN VERY DIFFICULT TO ACCEPT. ANYWAY YESTERDAY WHEN WE MET UP AT THE SCHOOL SHE GREETED ME WITH A KISS!! NOW IT MAY HAVE BEEN A SLIP ON HER PART AND IT WAS A SIMPLE PECK BUT A KISS IS STILL A KISS. I SHOULD BE SO HAPPY BUT SHE CAUGHT ME SO OF GUARD WHEN SHE DID IT THAT I TURNED MY HEAD SLIGHLTY AS IN MY MIND AND MY STUPID BRAIN WANTED TO TELL HER "HEY REMEMBER YOU DONT WANT TO KISS ME!". I HOPE THIS MAKES SENSE TO SOMEONE. IN ANY CASE I FEEL THIS IS AT THE VERY LEAST A GOOD SIGN AND I WILL TRY TO REMAIN STEADY WITH MY DB ATTITUDE SO AS NOT TO MELT AND RUIN IT ALL. I WOULD LOVE TO HEAR ANYONES OPINION ON THIS
niceguy, your sit sounds very similar to mine. However, it was I that dealt with depression causing a lot of damage to our marriage over the years.... at least I'm being told now. Anyway my W has said she never wants another man touching Her. It has been difficult but frankly I understand. She was diagnosed with a disease that has robbed her youth. She is very bitter towards me, because at times I was not there for her like she thought I should be, plus the sickness and pain.
Anyway, Sandi's points are golden. They work mircles! My W wanted me out ...dropping the bomb in Jan. Because of DB, etc. I'm still here for now and things ( as far as our ability to get a along have improved.)
My problem has been that I slip up following the rules. I start to want to take control and it gets worse. " Don't ask if things are getting better!" Let actions demostrate that, the problem is patients
Sandi, when a women is this hurt ( by the way, I've never cheated on her ). Is it possible for them to open up and love again???? I know you don't know the details, but just image a very bad case of the " i can't give you want you want, you hurt me, you never loved me, you don't love me like you think " type of situation... oddly enough she says she loves me.. but just can't give anymore.
First of all let me say thank you for your kind words. I did not know you even read any of my posts. I need to catch up on your stitch to give you a fair answer to this question:
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Sandi, when a women is this hurt ( by the way, I've never cheated on her ). Is it possible for them to open up and love again???? I know you don't know the details, but just image a very bad case of the " i can't give you want you want, you hurt me, you never loved me, you don't love me like you think " type of situation... oddly enough she says she loves me.. but just can't give anymore.
Well, I believe that almost anything is possible where love is concerned. But, in a case where a lot has been given to another person in the name of love and they have felt that they were not loved in return and received a lot of hurt, well that takes a long time to heal. I do believe she can open up and love again like you want her to....if she says she still loves you even now. But, based on just these few words, I get a picture of a woman that feels worn out from doing all the work in the MR and has given up in her heart and has no energy left in her body. That put you in a place where you will have to be the one to pull the M back together again.....almost completely on your own. However, if she is still in the house with you.....then you have a wonderful opportunity to show her all your new changes and prove to her that they are going to stick. As Michelle says in her book, act "as if" you have had an awakening.....which I think you have, and start doing the things Michells says to do in her book. Now, I'll warn you that you may be met by some bitterness at first, b/c she will be almost angry at you for waiting until "now" to start doing the things she wanted so despartly back then. But, you will have to be very, very patient with her. It will take a long time, but it will be worth it in the end. Do you think you can do it? I hope so. As long as there is still a little flicker of love, you can fan it until it begins to flame again. But, it won't happen overnight. She has a big wall of resentment that has to come down. That will take time.
Let me know how things are going, okay?
Take care, Sandi
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
I thank all of you that have responded. I wish more people would participate in my sitch. Maybe I should move the thread, what do you think Sandi?
If you read my last post where everything was good, sure enough things did not stay that way for long. This has been a very bad week and I am feeling so sad, drained, negative, and just plain depressed about this whole thing that I think today I seriously thought twice about calling my wife and just giving in and saying "fine, you do not love me anymore, I will get out of your life" just so I do not have to feel this pain anymore. The thing is as much as she had said in the beginning that she did not love me anymore or need me, she will not let me go either. My heart tells me that my wifes condition (bipolar) is not letting her see clearly.
She recently rearranged a table in our bedroom (remember I am not living in the house) where our wedding picture is and she put it where it can be seen right as you walk into my bedroom..does this mean anything? She calls several times a day but when she is in a bipolar state I do not even know who she is (angry, negative, irrational, stressed out, etc..)
I think that I have been working really hard on this and I have made many good changes that I never dreamed of but today I just feel like this is such and uphill battle that I wonder how much I can take. I love my wife and my kids dearly. I do not know why I must endure this, why can´t things just be OK. Why is it so hard for my wife to see what I see? Why does she have these walls up? And why is it so easy for her to just turn off the switch?
BTW, I also had a session with my therapist today and I really do not want to go back there again. All she does is tell me how messed up I am, all of the issues that I have to work on. She is putting me on a war path with my wife where I should do drastic things and "stand my ground" not let her push me around, be cold to her, distant. She even suggested that I start telling my wife whenever she does something that I do not agree with,such as "I am tired of you not being nice and lovey to me when we talk..??" that I let her know. That i should go back to my house and tell her that I am not leaving because I love her and I should not be the one to leave. Things of this nature. That my wife is just using me as a money source right now. Well I am still her hsuband so I would think it is better that than she go out and do something drastic for money... just my opinion.
I don't know what you guys may think, but I really feel she is way off base.
Sorry to be so negative today. Any support and advice is welcome cause I really need it today.
