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I have been brwosing the forum for about 4 months now, just got registered and decided I needed some more specific advice to my sitch. Hope this isn't too long and discourages everybody from reading through it all!

Here it is:

I think it all started with me getting into a depression about my career outlook. That was somewhere late 06 I think, it's hard to tell because you just can't pinpoint when that stuff starts. I was just not sure where it all was going and so I felt kinda lost. I now realize it had all the signs of an MLC, but not as deep, so I call it a "mini MLC". Anyways, this most likely caused me to not pay as much attention to my wife as I used to and I think she took this as rejection from me. I guess I did feel her distancing herself from me, because my "feeling lost" got worse. (around spring/summer 07) I am honestly convinced that somehow I knew that she wasn't the cause of it, but I can understand how she would take my behaviour as rejection. Also around this time, she is working on starting up a new business on the side of her full-time job. This is causing her to spend a lot of what used to be our "free time", i.e. evenings and weekends working, leaving little time for us to do stuff together (esp with 4 yr old twins)

About August 07, I start getting out of it, because I realize I can just enjoy the present without getting overly concerned about the future (as far as my career is concerned). My wife actually opened a shop that month and I can contribute by working on building stuff there, doing the lighting, painting, etc.. etc.. This makes me feel better because I can contribute in a more direct way instead of just keepng the kids out of the way at home, which is what I had one before that (Spring to Aug). However, my interactions with my wife started feeling a little off. I do all this work in her shop, which is her dream BTW, so I thought that would make her feel really good. But she didn't seem very grateful, at least that's how it felt to me. She would keep a blog about the progress on the place and there was no mention of me anywhere in there.

I should also mention that she has been a woman of "full figure" since we met. This never bothered me, I always thought she was attractive. But she had a very low self-esteem due to this and when I would say that she looked good, she would tell me that I am just saying that because I feel have to since she is my wife. Since early 07, she has been on a medication that makes her lose appetite and therefore weight (she lost 70lbs!). It seemed like her self-confidence was getting better and better and she would enjoy dressing up, which is something she never really felt like even though I tried to encourage her by helping her find clothes that look good on her. I do tend to think this boost in self-confidence had something to do with me "snapping"out of my "mini MLC". Who knows....

Another little sidenote: Every couple of years, I have to travel overseas for work for a couple of months. Sometimes it's 4-5 trips of 1 or 2 weeks over 3 months, sometimes it's 1 trip of 2 months. Nov and Dec 07 were gonna be a 2 month trip for me for work. In Oct 07, she told me ILYBNILWY. This comes as a complete shock to me, esp since I was just starting to feel better about life and everything. She said that she still sees me as her very best friend ever, someone that understands her better than anyone, but when we ML, she feels like ML to her brother. The feelings just aren't there anymore and this is making her extremely uncomfortable. She said that she can't turn her feelings back on like a light switch as I did.

So I go on my 2 month trip and it is literally he!! having to be away in this situation. We email and text and she told me that it all came about because I wasn't supportive of her business and several other things. I will honestly admit that I was a little pessimistic about the business initiative because it didn't seem that the market she's trying to reach is there in that location, but mostly because it would take away a lot of our free time to spend as a family. But once I could contribute (building stuff, lights etc...) I did feel better about it and thought it was very worthwile to try. I email her several long letters back explaining my viewpoints and how I was trying to support her. She keeps responding that I say all the right things now, but it still isn't bringing her feelings back.

When I come back (late Dec 07), she seems really close and loving
and we ML several times until Feb 07, when she tells me that it really doesn't feel right and she just can't ML anymore. From Feb till June we basically live a friendship (or roommates) kind of life during which we always have lots of fun when we do stuff together and with the kids. I am trying to be upbeat as much as possible, to the point where she asks: "How can you be so happy in this situation?". I just tell her that I am trying to show her how I can be to live with (after my depression) and who wants to live with a person that's miserable?? However, every couple of weeks R talks happen during which she says nothing has changed as far as her feelings are concerned. Late June she told me she found a house to rent (available until Dec she said) and was going to live there. We would share the kids and we split all of our bills except for gas money, car insurance and payment, and the kids daycare.

The first couple of weeks, we have very little contact and I am trying as hard as I can to not pursue her (been reading here quite a bit at that point! \:\) After a while she contacts me more and more, we go on dates and have a great time (she says so too). Every time we see each other, she hugs me tight and kisses me. Lately, she asks for my advice on business stuff, then even takes my advice (which I took as a pretty good step forward). Then last Monday, she brings up R talk and says that her feelings still haven't changed. I am really convinced that she herself doesn't understand why this is. She seems to care for me very deeply and even says so, but the intimate feelings are not there. I also don't think she's happier now than before. For one thing, she's having trouble paying all of her bills for her house in addition to starting the business that's costing money right now. She also asked if I would want her to move back in and be roommates again, to which I responded that I would want her to move back in because she WANTS to move back in. I sort of broke down a little bit at that point and told her that I still love her very much and that I miss her and that the door is always open if she wants to come back.

Last weekend, I went out with the kids and my SIL, my BIL and all of their kids (my wife was working at her shop). We stayed for dinner at my MIL and FIL's house with SIL. They are asking me how it's going and I tell them how it is going. They all say that they don't understand what she's doing and that they think I have unbelievable patience (good to have for DB'íng! \:\) ) I defend her by saying that I have done things wrong too and that W and I both share the blame for being in this sitch. But now, her parents and sister are getting into it and take my side, calling her to tell her she's making a big mistake, that she can't take care of herself (bills) etc.. etc.. THis leads to tonight when W tells me that she feels like I have been complaining behind her back... Feels like a HUGE setback compared to recent weeks...

Need some advice and hopefully encouragement that I am on the right way.. Does this sound like WAW? She does try to spend time with the kids, esp lately. Or is it a MLC? I keep getting the feeling she's going through something similar to me, except I never felt the relationship was the casue of my unhappiness.

Thanks for reading my life story!!
S
I hope the extremely long post doesn't discourage anybody... I do need some advice though. I really appreciate the effort!
My W is a true WAW. I'm not sure about the MLC thing. Mine has said that she wants to be friends and that ML to me is suffocating. Nice for the self-esteem, huh?

I didn't read anything in your sitch about any OM; is this the case or do you have any suspicion about it? If not, our sitches are totally different.

Having said that, we do have something in common and you need to know this. My in-laws love me and what I'm doing. Remember, though that they are NOT DB'ing and will pass along to your W whatever they feel like saying. You may not have been talking about the R behind your W's back; but that is how your W perceives it, so it's true. You have to stop giving the in-laws information; it WILL get back to your W. Any word from them in the manner you describe will set you back. don't worry, it's normal. I did the same thing in my M earlier in prior episodes. Back in Mar, we separated and I disclosed everything to my MIL and that made it back to my W. Caused lots of problems.

If you guys decide to reconcile, you don't want your family tainted with knowledge of things that might cloud their impressions of the both of you.

Try to remain as silent as possible around the In-laws. If you have to politely decline to be involved in talks with them about your M.

Hope this helps and welcome to the boards. Lots of support and help her.
I cant give u much advice due to not doing to well myself. But u have to leave family out of it. It will backfire on u. As hard as it is u just have to do that. If u have DB or DR, do the find what 180's u need to be doing, and start doing them. That will make the biggest difference, and mean them. You know the things she complains about, maybe u not spending enough quality time with the kids, u dont do house work like she likes it, etc.

Just think hard about all that and do the 180's, then the hardest part is the goals. All of it is to make U a better person, maybe she will see it! You will get some good advice here, and there are some truly wonderful friends here. They will help u, some days are slow here, especially weekends, Just hang in there and really work on ur 180's. And dont pursue. Good luck and will be checking on u!
I had read in another post that the family getting involved is not a good thing. The thing is, I didn't engage in any way, they were asking and so I told how things were going. There are probably some things I shouldn't have told them tho... And I have told W that I was sorry, that I shouldn't have told them (about her financial situation among others). It sounded like they lectured her about that and about our M. I guess I will just have to tell them to ask her if they ask me about her.

About the 180's, I just made a list of 180's I have done:
- I spend a lot more time with the kids and I take them out to do fun stuff. She notices this, because about once a month she will say that she wants to take them to something fun without me because "I always get to do fun stuff with them".

- I compliment her a lot on her looks, which I didn't do barely at all before. She does look incredibly HOT!!

- I don't constantly criticize her ways of conducting her business, which I did before and she has told me that I am always looking at the negative. Now, I tell her every time I think she does something good (before, I always THOUGHT that, but never said it to her)

- I let her go out on her own if she wants and I am not difficult about it. This one I started before she moved out, so now it's not really relevant anymore. I used to be difficult about this, because I always felt bad if I went out by myself, so I never really did. This caused me to think that she shouldn't either. Now, I realize that when you have a good time by yourself, you recharge and feel good when you get home and then you also don't feel frustrated if the W goes out by herself.

Just some more info I thought of.
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I guess I will just have to tell them to ask her if they ask me about her.


Exactly my friend. You can tell the in-laws how you are doing with respect to your state of mind; but no details from the M.
I don't think there is an OM. Early on, I acted a little jealous and she said that she doesn't have any romantic feelings for anyone, so not to worry. I do trust that statement. She said a couple of months ago that it sucks that she can't ML to me. I always thought that was a weird statement, not sure what she means with that.

Re the knowledge that will taint my W, I did not say much to the in-laws, and certainly nothing that has changed their opinion of her. My W has always been kind of the odd-one out in her family. My SIL is the favorite.

She says she feels like EVERYONE is against her and that she is trying what she thinks is right. I told her that I know that and that I am there for her, to help her.
Hi Sam, I'm Sandi.....an almost WAW. I had been where your wife was for a very long time without OM involved at all, so it doesn't have to mean there is another person. However, with her new look......it will be very tempting to her b/c you can bet she is getting the attention from other men. She will like that a lot since she had low self-esteem!

I don't know that I agree to let her come home as room mates b/c she is having a hard time with bills. Sounds to me that she is just using you and she will not respect you. It is most important for a woman to admire the man she is in love with. Therefore, that needs to be your goal. She cannot feel attracted to a man that she does not admire and respect.....it is impossible. She may feel sorry for a man or she may feel friendship.....but she will not have sexual attraction without the respect and admiration. Not, that a woman cannot respect or admire a man without having sexual feelings....I don't mean that....but where married love and sex is concerned...she must have those two ingrediants.

So, start with setting a goal of self improvements. I'm sure there is something you can find to improve about yourself. Maybe you need to just change your looks up a bit (but don't go crazy). Buy some different clothes that look really sharp on you or get a new hair cut.....get some advice from some professionals....but never ask your W. Don't say anything to her about your changes.....just do them.

She needs to miss you in her life. So, don't run to her to rescue her from her problems. That is what you will be doing if you allow her to move back into the house b/c she needs you to share her expenses. She needs to see you being unavailable to her. A human being wants what they think they can't have. Right? So, don't be so easy for her!

You need to act "cool", as the kids say, and not needy. I see a lot of "needy" in your post (which is okay here, but not in front of her). You broke down in front of her once, but try very hard not to let that happen again. If you feel it coming on, get away fast. You don't want her pity, you want her admiration. I would being the one to make the contacts. If she wants to contact you, then fine, but be sure you are the one that breaks the conversation first. It is all in the book by Michelle. I have posted a long list of do's and don'ts time after time, so you probably have already seen that. If you will go by that list, it will make a huge difference!

Exercise is one of the best things you can do for frustration and worry right now. Plus, you get other benifits! Stay on a good diet, sleep enough, and get out and get a life by staying busy at something regardless of how small it may seem.

If you have been around the board for about 4 months, then you have read the advice given to others. It should not be new to you. You just need to apply it to your stitch now.

Good luck and take care,
Sandi
Look for the OM. I sense a disturbance in the force. ;\)

Sandi is right about you coming across as needy in your interactions with your W.

Let her do her thing, you can't stop and/or control her anyway so what you do now for yourself will be remembered when she shakes this fog.

Be kind, be firm. Don't enable her but don't obstruct her either.
Sandi, thanks for responding! I read a lot of your posts to others and was hoping you would see my thread! \:\)

Re her new look, she has changed a lot and earlier this year, she has been telling me about a guy asking her out, an older guy commenting on her, or being "checked out" by someone. That did bother me and that was when I was acting a litte jealous. She did tell me on multiple occasions that she has no interest in anybody else and the guys asking her out and checking her out are all old guys that she thinks are disgusting. She also keeps saying that she still does not feel very attractive. Her own words were that her low self-esteem would keep her from trying anything for sure. At least for the events she has told me about (all happened more than 4-5 months ago and she has told me about them right after) I know this to be true, they are old and I could not see her being interested in them at all. I realize now that I sound very naive, but we have always been very honest with each other and I trust her when she told me that she is not romantically interested in anybody right now. Besides, she TOTALLY kills herself with work for the past year and a half, so she doesn't even have time. I think her honesty is also why she has shared her ILYBNILWY early, before she saw D as the only solution. She has mentioned a D once, and that was last Dec. Since then, she has maintained that being on her own for a while and just go on dates with me might help her find her feelings back.

Does the above sound like a WAW or MLC? I am not sure. Any ideas?

Re her moving back in, I think I did not explain what she said very well. She first told me she has hit "rock-bottom" financially, then later on she said she keeps going through scenarios in her head about what would happen if she moved back in. Her literal words were: "I mean, you wouldn't want me to move back in as a roommate, now would you? You want me to move back in as a wife." I don't think she was asking me if she could move back in, even if it is as a roommate, I think she was asking me how I would want her to be when she moves back in.

Re exercising, I was in real good shape in college, then after I got married, it all went away and I became overweight, my W always told me that I wear it well as opposed to her. After the boys were born, I decided I had to get in better shape so I could be healthy and do stuff with the kids. So that was 2004. I have been amping up my exercising a LOT since the bomb and have lost a lot of weight (not as much as her tho), but I do think I look good. My W has told me on multiple occasions that her friends and family say I look good (even HOT from her sister). A couple of times -mainly before she moved out ($$ situation)- she has picked out some clothes for me that she thought would look good on me. I know the exercising is an excellent stress reliever and it works for me!

Re the rescuing her, I have not done that, nor have I any intention to do so. I did tell her that I thought that she should focus her attention differently within her business so that she could make more money. Would that be bad? She did ask me for my advice. The next day she called me up and said that she had followed my advice and refocused. When she picks up the kids here she wants to show me her work to see what I think. I took all of those things as positive, because she hadn't done that in months. Especially asking me for my advice concerning her business, since she said I was always so negative about it.

On a final note, reading your post I do see that I could be a lot more detached. But that's why I came here, so I could get some perspective! I though I was doing OK, not great, but not bad either. I had in my mind that if I could be her best friend, to be there for her when she comes for help, not contacting her myself, but be there if she needs me, that that was the best approach. Now, I know that I can still do a lot better. I just need to be less available for her. I did take a vacation with the boys for 2 weeks without her, that did seem to make the phone calls and texts start coming in.

This week has been a disaster however, it still feels like I went back several months... Every time a setback happens, it seems like that will be the final straw that brings on the D. \:\(

Thanks a lot to all responders for your encouragement!!
We all have had backslides in our situations, you are not a special unique snowflake in that regard. ;\)

Pull up your shorts, put your head down, and do the work that detachment requires.

She isn't wondering about you at all right now, and you aren't getting the healing time away from her you need.
I know I shouldn't keep beating myself over the head about the backslides, but it's hard (you all know I'm sure!)

A couple of people have said I come across as needy. I do feel needy, however, I don't really act that way around W I don't think? Can one of you tell me what part exactly made you say that? I guess I don't see it and I know I shouldn't be doing that...
Thanks a lot!
The hardest part about all of this is I realized this morning is the fact that the backslides make me want to seek contact with her MORE and pursue her MORE and when things seem to go in the right direction, it becomes easier to detach and let her do her thing... TOTALLY contrary to what I need!! Any suggestions on what my needy bahviours are?
Clingy/needy behaviour: asking for reassurance too much aka "taking the temperature," fishing for compliments, needing her approval so you feel better, needing instead of wanting, get upset when she tells you no. Read up on co-dependence, Melody Beattie.
Do you try to love your W using your LLs or hers?
Cheers
I understand those. However, I am not doing any of those things. Some previous posters said aI came across as needy in my sitch description, I was wondering if they could tell me what part exactly made them say that, because I want to work on that! I was taking the temeprature back in Feb and Mar a lot, but I have worked on that a lot and I think I have definitely improved in that regard. That is why I am really curious what part of my post made them say that.

Re the LL's, I still need to listen to the CD's, but I am pretty certain Word of Affirmation is one of her major ones, that is why I am trying to compliment her whe I see her (about her achievements at work, her appearance, etc..)

Thanks for checking in on me!
Originally Posted By: sandi2
Hi Sam, I'm Sandi.....an almost WAW. I had been where your wife was for a very long time without OM involved at all, so it doesn't have to mean there is another person. However, with her new look......it will be very tempting to her b/c you can bet she is getting the attention from other men. She will like that a lot since she had low self-esteem!

I had to think about your comments for a little while, to let them sink in. Since she lost the weight, she has been dressing more sexy, at first it was maybe a little TOO much for just working. And yes, she does seem to get a boost from some of that attention. However, it also makes her uncomfortable. About 20 years ago, she was the victim of a sexual attack and she has told me a long time ago (before any of the current issues arose) that that kind of attention makes her feel uncomfortable (like it could happen again). Most of the recent events of male attention she has told me about happened more than 4 months ago and she tells me that she got out of that place as quick as she could. I think that some of these events actually have caused her to dress a little more conservatively now. I still think she looks incredible and I tell her so on a regular basis (it's one of my 180's). She's been trying to lose weight for a long time and now she's done it and I have told her I am proud of her.

Another thought: maybe losing the weight got her self-confidence up just far enough to gather the courage to give me the ILYBNILWY talk?
Just a question that came up in my mind today: My W and I share the kids, as in more or less equal nights at my house as at her house. Is this still a characteristic of a WAW? She does make an effort to see them and spend time with them, even though her business does seem to take slightly more priority (as in she will ask me to swap days with her because she has somewhere to go for work).

In thinking about this a little more, if I am being honest, I guess I do the same. I try to schedule my trips for work on the days that she has them, but sometimes you just can't and I still need to make a living, also for them. I have not had to swap days in about 6 months though.

I was just wondering if all the WAW stuff applies to my case?
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In Oct 07, she told me ILYBNILWY. This comes as a complete shock to me, esp since I was just starting to feel better about life and everything. She said that she still sees me as her very best friend ever, someone that understands her better than anyone, but when we ML, she feels like ML to her brother. The feelings just aren't there anymore and this is making her extremely uncomfortable. She said that she can't turn her feelings back on like a light switch as I did.


Perhaps by feeling like you are her very best friend, it is too much of a "brotherly" thing and that is why she does not have the sexual attraction there. So, I would suggest you not come across as a "brother" in friendship or any other way. Ever wonder why some girls went after the "bad boys"? Just a thought. I'm not saying to start being bad to her, but stop doing anything that comes across as a "girlfriend" (no offense intended) b/c she can always have girl friends but you want to be her lover. Being friends in a MR is great, but since she is feeling like you are more her "brother" then I think you need to work on getting a different image across to her. For example, don't go clothes shopping with her.....that is something her girlfriends can do.

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I email her several long letters back explaining my viewpoints and how I was trying to support her. She keeps responding that I say all the right things now, but it still isn't bringing her feelings back.


I don't mean to sound curel when I say this, but once a woman has lost that sexual attraction, almost everything her H does is a complete "turn-off" to her. So, these long letters and emails are seen to be too needy to her. I know what you were trying to do and understand it completely, but I'm just telling you how it comes across to her.

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I am trying to be upbeat as much as possible, to the point where she asks: "How can you be so happy in this situation?". I just tell her that I am trying to show her how I can be to live with

I am sure you were trying to apply the DB rule here even if you had not read about it yet, but she is seeing you in a different light than what you are wanting to protray.

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I sort of broke down a little bit at that point and told her that I still love her very much and that I miss her and that the door is always open if she wants to come back.


As bad as it sounds, this is about the worse type of "neediness" that you can show her. She wants to see a strong confident man that will take charge and have sex appeal. If you do what she needs, you won't have to beg her to come back.....she will fly back to you.

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But now, her parents and sister are getting into it and take my side, calling her to tell her she's making a big mistake,


This is only making matters worse. Don't discuss your R with anyone else and if the family asks any more questions, you need to ask them to please not talk to her that it is does not help.

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THis leads to tonight when W tells me that she feels like I have been complaining behind her back...
She knows you've been talking when family talk to her and it makes her feel betrayed. However, don't try to go explain anything, just don't say anymore about it.

If you have an idea of a man you think shows much sex appeal and strength as a man, try to see if you can incoporate that style into part of your personality. It takes works and lots of practice, but some have found it to be worthwhile. Marriage has a way of changing people for the worse without them realizing it. So, I'm just trying to point some things out that you can start working on trying to improve yourself. Like I said, the main thing right now is not to do anything to remind her that you are a brother!

Take care,
Sandi
Thanks a lot for checking in on me again! I really appreciate your advice and pointers! As before, even without knowing me, your comments are right on the $$!

Originally Posted By: sandi2
Perhaps by feeling like you are her very best friend, it is too much of a "brotherly" thing and that is why she does not have the sexual attraction there. So, I would suggest you not come across as a "brother" in friendship or any other way. Ever wonder why some girls went after the "bad boys"? Just a thought. I'm not saying to start being bad to her, but stop doing anything that comes across as a "girlfriend" (no offense intended) b/c she can always have girl friends but you want to be her lover. Being friends in a MR is great, but since she is feeling like you are more her "brother" then I think you need to work on getting a different image across to her. For example, don't go clothes shopping with her.....that is something her girlfriends can do.


This does hit really close! We have gone shopping together before, even clothes shopping. She never really was interested in dressing up due to her self-esteem and weight, so I wanted to show her that she can look good by helping her pick out stuff that I think looks good on her. Writing this, I feel like such a gay "girlfriend" LOL \:\) Having said that, we haven't done this in a while (couple of months) and even then I have been taking the kids to a toy store or something while she's in the store.

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I don't mean to sound curel when I say this, but once a woman has lost that sexual attraction, almost everything her H does is a complete "turn-off" to her. So, these long letters and emails are seen to be too needy to her. I know what you were trying to do and understand it completely, but I'm just telling you how it comes across to her.


I have realized that a while ago. Those long emails were in response to her long emails while I was overseas in Nov and Dec last year. This hasn't happened since then!

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I am sure you were trying to apply the DB rule here even if you had not read about it yet, but she is seeing you in a different light than what you are wanting to protray.


I had not read anything about DB or anything else. I was just thinking how would she want to stay with someone that's always miserable, that's all. She did say that she saw my point. Of course, this was back in Jan. She has not said anything of the sorts since then. I'm a little confused by your comment at the end. Are you saying that it's making the wrong impression on her? Or was I just overdoing it a little bit?

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As bad as it sounds, this is about the worse type of "neediness" that you can show her. She wants to see a strong confident man that will take charge and have sex appeal. If you do what she needs, you won't have to beg her to come back.....she will fly back to you.


I realize that I shouldn't have done this. However, I wasn't crying or anything. I just wanted to make it clear to her that my feelings for her are still there. I told her this in a calm voice, not like I was falling apart. After I said that I still love her very much, she did come sit next to me and put her head on my shoulder, that's actually when I told her I miss her.
I am a little confused about the "take charge" comment. How is taking charge compatible with "dropping the rope". Or do you mean taking charge of my own life not ours?
I also am not clear on what she needs. There are still some fixing things at her shop that ned to be completed. Would that be something that I should just go over and do, unasked?

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She knows you've been talking when family talk to her and it makes her feel betrayed. However, don't try to go explain anything, just don't say anymore about it.


I did not explain anything to her on why I did talk to them. However, I did tell her yesterday, in a calm, honest way, that I want her to know that I know I betrayed her trust when I told her parents about stuff she confided in me and that it won't happen again and that I want her to know she can come to me to talk about anything without worry that I will tell anybody else.

I know emotional intimacy is important to maintain, that is why I wanted to say that. Last June, the MC asked her if she felt emotionally intimate with me and she said that she was. To which the MC said that that is needed first in order to start feeling physically intimate.

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If you have an idea of a man you think shows much sex appeal and strength as a man, try to see if you can incoporate that style into part of your personality. It takes works and lots of practice, but some have found it to be worthwhile. Marriage has a way of changing people for the worse without them realizing it. So, I'm just trying to point some things out that you can start working on trying to improve yourself. Like I said, the main thing right now is not to do anything to remind her that you are a brother!

I read about someone trying to behave like James Bond. I sure see the sex appeal to that kind of man. However, it seems to me that he gets into women's minds by sweeping her of her feet and then abandoning them. Basically, he lets them get real close and then pulls away. At first, I wasn't sure if that is the right approach here, but thinking about it... I think the underlying reason why detaching works is because you make them want what they cannot have. You're basically "reeling" them in by pulling back a little further every time they come closer. Don't know if that's how it works, but that is how imagine it works.

Any thought about my thoughts. Should I look at it this way?

Thanks again everybody!
Well, I'm so glad that you didn't chunk my reply out the window...lol. I will try to explain myself better, and anytime that you don't understand what I'm saying please do like you did this time and ask me about it b/c I don't always do a good job of relating what I mean to.

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Writing this, I feel like such a gay "girlfriend" LOL Having said that, we haven't done this in a while (couple of months) and even then I have been taking the kids to a toy store or something while she's in the store.


Please don't feel that way, b/c a lot of women would just love for their H's to go shopping with them and to tell them what looks good on them, etc. You were trying to do the right thing in helping to build her self esteem and I think that is very considerate of you. The only reason I brought that up was b/c of what she had said about the brotherly friendship. This may not have had anything to do with that whatsoever, but we want to get away from anything the remotely resembles looking like "just a friend" to her or causing her to have only feelings of a friend toward you.

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Those long emails were in response to her long emails while I was overseas in Nov and Dec last year. This hasn't happened since then!


Okay, well....I may have misdiagnosed that one...lol. I was trying to see what you may have done to cause her to feel like she does. Like I said before, unfortunately when a woman loses that sexual attraction, it seems to be hard to regain it.

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I'm a little confused by your comment at the end. Are you saying that it's making the wrong impression on her? Or was I just overdoing it a little bit?


Guess I should have went back to read my post again, but if this is about the PMA and staying upbeat......I meant that you may have been trying so hard that you were coming across as "over doing it" to her and, again, that was a "turn-off" to her. The reason it would be a turn-off is b/c she saw through it and knew why you were trying so hard, so just try to do it naturally as possible. I know it sounds like you can't win, but you will. It is just that right now she is not seeing you in the right "light" and that is what we will work on to change that.

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However, I wasn't crying or anything. I just wanted to make it clear to her that my feelings for her are still there.


Glad you cleared that up and since you have told her that, then you don't need to repeat it since she has the feelings that she does. You may be tempted to, but try not to say it again or tell her that you love her, etc. I know it sounds the opposite of what you think you should be doing, but that is what is so crazy about all of it.

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I am a little confused about the "take charge" comment. How is taking charge compatible with "dropping the rope". Or do you mean taking charge of my own life not ours?



I'm glad you brought that to my attention b/c you know what?.....I was kind of talking out of both sides of my mouth, wasn't I? I think I forgot and was thinking about myself when I was almost a WAW and was having an EA with OM. He was the opposite of my H and was a very "take charge" type of man and it really turned me on! So, just pretend I did not say that (for the time being) and let's get back to your stitch and off of mine (sorry). BTW, are you the "take charge" kind of man?

You see there are two basic ways of going about this. Some can act as if they have had a "great awakening" and become the "friend" and be there for the wife, outshine the OM, show what a great person you have become and how much fun you can be, etc., and it works. But others have to "drop the rope" before they get their W's attention. That means to show no concern about what she does and that you are moving on with your life with or without her, but either way, you will be just fine and you don't show any worry about it. In other words, you have turned her lose. But, you still show your self improvements and how you are getting a life of your own and all of those things. Now, if you are still sleeping in the same bed or living under the same roof, that may be a little hard to do. The decision and what you think would work best in your particular stitch is for you to decide. Whichever way you go, I do believe a woman wants a man that is not easy to have and that is why I said that you do not need to be so easily available to her.....whatever you decide. You can act "aloof", as I have said, without being cold or rude, but just as though you have other things to do or think about, and you are not getting upset about what she says or what she does. That is the main thing to remember. You cannot control what she does.....so don't even try. Do not let her know that anything she says upsets you....(if you have to go burry your head in a pillow and scream). That's why long walks or working out at the gym is good. It helps get rid of all that frustration.

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I also am not clear on what she needs. There are still some fixing things at her shop that ned to be completed. Would that be something that I should just go over and do, unasked?


I'm sure it is b/c of the statement that I made that confused you. Hope I helped to clear that up. I would not go over and do anything at her shop. If she asked, then I suppose that would be up to you and how you felt about it. You could always be too busy and too unavailable to her and it would cause her to see that she can't take you for granted. You take "brothers" for granted. Until she gets out of that frame of mind that you are like a brother to her.....then you may have to take drastic measures.

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However, I did tell her yesterday, in a calm, honest way, that I want her to know that I know I betrayed her trust when I told her parents about stuff she confided in me and that it won't happen again and that I want her to know she can come to me to talk about anything without worry that I will tell anybody else.


That is good that you did that. I hope that they will not continue to talk to her b/c it will just make things worse for you in the long run.

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I know emotional intimacy is important to maintain, that is why I wanted to say that. Last June, the MC asked her if she felt emotionally intimate with me and she said that she was. To which the MC said that that is needed first in order to start feeling physically intimate.


It is my belief that if a woman's emotional needs are being met that she can even deal with having the physical needs unmet--if she has to. That is just my way of thinking--and maybe b/c I never had my emotional needs met in my own M. But, you are correct, the emotional, I think, needs to be met first. However, a lot of people say to just go ahead and have the physical intimacy and then the feelings will eventually follow. It didn't work for me, but then I'm not everybody.

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I read about someone trying to behave like James Bond. I sure see the sex appeal to that kind of man. However, it seems to me that he gets into women's minds by sweeping her of her feet and then abandoning them. Basically, he lets them get real close and then pulls away. At first, I wasn't sure if that is the right approach here, but thinking about it... I think the underlying reason why detaching works is because you make them want what they cannot have. You're basically "reeling" them in by pulling back a little further every time they come closer. Don't know if that's how it works, but that is how imagine it works.


The James Bond thing got started between me and a couple of men here on the board. I was talking to a young man and telling him that my idea man was Rhett Butler in "Gone With the Wind" (I'm old fashion) and he and another man said James Bond (which I think of him the way you do....lol) but both are fictional characters. However, I do think if you have an idea of a role model of someone you think of as being a man that women go for, and it is somewhat reasonable for you to think about yourself modeling after, then I would say to go for it. It seemed to work for my friend b/c he ended with a success story. He said he ended up being Rhett Butler and James Bond combined! Now that is saying something! (lol)

I used to think some men should secretly read some of those romance novels just to get an idea of what kind of men women dream of.....lol. My H said once that he could never be like those men. My response to that was, how did he know since he never even read one of the books to find out.

You do have the right concept of the detaching and "reeling them in" b/c they want what they can't have.

I believe we all can stand to raise the bar when it comes to improving ourselves. As I said before, for some reason after we marry, we get too comfortable and we start letting down too much and begin to take each other for granted. That is when a lot of the romantic feelings wear off very quickly.

I remember when I was in school, it was not the boys that were falling all over me or following after me like a loved starved puppy dog, that I was interested in. It was the ones that didn't pay me any attention that was a challenge to me. Those were the boys that I would flirt with and try to get their attention and for sure.....get them interested enough to ask me out on a date! I think the same applies after M. You need to keep a certain amount of detachment to the point of not ever taking one another for granted. You need to have an air of mystery about you. You need to be more interesting and keep her guessing (not worrying, but guessing in a good way), you need to be fun to be around. You need to act sexy, look sexy, and smell sexy. I have told so many men to always come home and shower and put on some good smelling cologne b/c that has a senual affect on women. They learned I knew what I was talking about. Especially at bedtime......when you pass her and she gets a whiff of you smelling good enough to eat.....but you don't seem to have sex on your mind at all......hummm.....it will cause her to wonder and to be interested in getting to the bottom of things. (No pun intended....lol). Don't expect it to happen in just a few day/nights and don't get all down and blue if it takes weeks, but keep it up every night. Don't do or say anything to put pressure on her or pursue her and you would be surprised just how little it takes to do that (pursue, I mean).

Well, I'll let you go after this long post. Hope it helps some.

Take care,
Sandi














That helps me some Sandi; I think I'll follow some of that advice.
Originally Posted By: sandi2
Please don't feel that way, b/c a lot of women would just love for their H's to go shopping with them and to tell them what looks good on them, etc. You were trying to do the right thing in helping to build her self esteem and I think that is very considerate of you. The only reason I brought that up was b/c of what she had said about the brotherly friendship. This may not have had anything to do with that whatsoever, but we want to get away from anything the remotely resembles looking like "just a friend" to her or causing her to have only feelings of a friend toward you.


I'm pretty sure she does appreciate me telling her what looks good on her. I have not listened to the LL cd's yet, but I am sure " words of affirmation" is one of her main LL. Earlier this year (when we were already in this situation, but she was still at home), she would actually "model" the outfits for me when we got home. This was really hard for me, to tell her how good and HOT she looked and still keep my hands off of her!!! But I would just keep that urge inside. I might have slipped up once or twice and given her a hug, but that was it. Besides, the last time she has "modeled" for me was months ago. She lives in another house now since late June, so now when she comes over to pick up the boys and I think she looks good, I tell her. She usually just brushes it aside with a comment like: "I just have my dirty shirt or jeans on.", but then she usually gives me a tight hug. I know that inside she appreciates the comment though. I just know. \:\)

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...Like I said before, unfortunately when a woman loses that sexual attraction, it seems to be hard to regain it.


I think that even she herself is confused about her feelings not coming back. I get the feeling that she does want them to come back, but doesn't know how. Of course, she has never admitted that, it's just a feeling I get from her. We were always kind of "in sync" thoughtwise, almost like telepathy. Sometimes stuff happens that gives me chills. Like we're driving down the road in the car and we would be talking about where we are going and then I get a thought like wouldn't it be cool to go camping (or whatever, I am making something up here, but it would be TOTALLY unrelated to what we had been talking about) Then, out of the blue, she would make the comment out loud! Just really odd. I am a scientist, so I don't really believe in that kind of stuff, but that kind of stuff happening makes the hair on my arms stand up! I know all of this sounds really mushy right now, but it does happen!

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Glad you cleared that up and since you have told her that, then you don't need to repeat it since she has the feelings that she does. You may be tempted to, but try not to say it again or tell her that you love her, etc. I know it sounds the opposite of what you think you should be doing, but that is what is so crazy about all of it.


She started R talk that evening and then halfway through it I told her that. I literally have not told her that I love her in months (trying to remember when the last time was but can't) that was actually the main reason I said it. I did not want her to leave with the impression that I am slowly " losing" my feelings too.

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BTW, are you the "take charge" kind of man?


I don't see myself as one, but I do do pretty much all of the household finances (bills, checking accounts, taxes) and I am always the one organizing our vacations, booking the flights, making hotel reservations, etc... She just disusses the destination with me. She lets me do all the organizing because I am "good at it" she says. So I guess yes, I do take charge, just not in the classical sense, the "romance" dept I guess.

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You see there are two basic ways of going about this.
become the "friend" and be there for the wife,
"drop the rope" before they get their W's attention.


I guess I have been doing both. Would that be bad? I do drop the rope by turning her completely loose (esp since she moved out) and I do not contact her unless I need to (regarding the kids school arrangements or something). I do ask her how the shop is going when I see her or when she contacts me, like a "best friend" would, but otherwise I just stay out of it. She did mention to me the other day that I have not been to shop in 4 months and am I really interested in it? I don't know if it has been that long, but it has been a while, I know that. But that was one of her complaints about me during the ILYBNILWY talk, so now I am not sure of that is working against me or for me? Do you have an idea?

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If she asked, then I suppose that would be up to you and how you felt about it. You could always be too busy and too unavailable to her and it would cause her to see that she can't take you for granted. You take "brothers" for granted. Until she gets out of that frame of mind that you are like a brother to her.....then you may have to take drastic measures.


Since last year, she has not asked me to do anything at the shop. I get the feeling that she's trying to prove to herself (and to me) that she can take care of things and doesn't need me.

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That is good that you did that. I hope that they will not continue to talk to her b/c it will just make things worse for you in the long run.


Should I call them and ask them not to talk to her anymore about this? I was afraid that if I did that, that they would tell her that too Trying to interfere in her relationship with her parents. I do need to fill you in on that relationship though, but I am too tired now, will try to do that tomorrow.

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It is my belief that if a woman's emotional needs are being met that she can even deal with having the physical needs unmet--if she has to.


What do you mean with "if she has to"? Do you mean she could just live a platonic relationship?

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You do have the right concept of the detaching and "reeling them in" b/c they want what they can't have.


The only thing I am unclear of is when do you stop moving away from them when they come closer? When they are "all the way back" and in love or before that? In other words, when do you stop detaching? I was reading below and saw that you should actually never completely stop. I will have to give that some thought!

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As I said before, for some reason after we marry, we get too comfortable and we start letting down too much and begin to take each other for granted. That is when a lot of the romantic feelings wear off very quickly.


That is exactly my feeling about what has happened to us!

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I have told so many men to always come home and shower and put on some good smelling cologne b/c that has a senual affect on women.


I have tried that last weekend for the first time after I read your advice on another thread. Not to say that I never take showers! LOL \:\) I mean take one just before she comes and shave and put on some aftershave. She did not say anything about it, but who knows, maybe she did notice?

I want to thank you and express my deepest appreciation for what you are doing! I know it must take a lot of time to write these long posts to everybody here, but I am sure it saved many M's already!!

Thank you!
Just a quick note about tonight. My W and I went to a concert (planned long ago) and we had a great time! She was running late and came straight from work and did not have time to change. I had put my suit on that she always said looked good on me (before we got where we are now...) On the way to town, we had a good conversation about all kinds of things, work, her shop, the kids, all kinds of stuff. We had dinner before the show and had some more good conversation. Even though she did not change her clothes, she looked very good to me, so I had to work hard on resisting the urge to put my hands on her. I did good all evening, only put my hands on her shoulder when she said she felt underdressed and I told her she looks great to me! On the way back home, she slept most of the way. The whole evening I had told myself I was not going to kiss her if she did not make the move first. When she left the house, she gave me a long hug and thanked me for the evening and I thanked her for coming. She headed for the door and then sort of went like: almost forgot, and gave me a kiss. I feel good about how things went.

I was looking at her sleeping in the car, completely exhausted, passed out... I just get the feeling that she probably can't sleep in her house, constantly thinking about stuff, why she's feeling this way, how come she doesn't feel anything for me when we have such a good time together... I don't know, just a feeling, a vibe I get from her.

Anyways, it's late, just wanted to journal...
Sandi, could you give my questions above one more read?

If anyone else wants to chime in, I really appreicate your help!
Just had some more points I remembered about our night out. I am trying to concentrate on the positive, but it's so easy to slip back and really get down thinking about all the stuff that's not right... Having a little down day. ANyways, so here it goes:

- On the way to the concert, she said that she would really like to go to this local music festival next summer, and then she said: "maybe we can go together with our friend couple X and Y!" I took that as a positive, that she still sees us be together next summer.

- At the concert, she tells me that she's been wearing this perfume for few weeks now that my mom gave to her years ago, because it reminds her of this city overseas I took her to when we were still dating. Also took this as a positive, as it seems she's trying to remind herself of all the good times we have had over the past 10 years.

Just wanted to see what you guys think about these! Trying to keep my PMA!! Hoping for someone to read my couple of posts above!!
I think these are positive signs. Just be wary of any cycling. IOW, don't get too excited yet; but it definitely is a plus. Any forward-thinking talk that includes the two of you as a couple is good.
Well, the thing is that she's not contacting me as much as a couple of weeks ago... I guess it's hurting my ability to maintain a PMA a little, seems a step back, whe other stuff indicates a step forward... I guess it evens it out?

She's still in pretty bad shape financially, and she told me on the way to the concert that she will have to move into an apartment because it is cheaper. I was just asking questions as to is it nice, where is it, where will the boys sleep and such. Just normal interested friend stuff. Of course, in my head I'm thinking, why the HE!! don't you just move back in!?!? My feeling is that being separated makes it harder for us to reconnect, assuming I can keep the pressure of of her even when living in the same house. On the other hand, us living apart does allow me to freely browse this forum and to be down every once in a a while without her knowing about it... Anyways, it's just been a long LONG time and I hope it's going to get better soon....

I am just trying to let her do what she thinks will work for her. I mean, from the start of this, she has always maintained that she does want to work it out, but just doesn't know how. The separation (moving out) was her idea and she said that she thought that that would work.
My W has never lived on her own. She always had someone to take care of her. That was one of her reasons as to why she wanted to separate, though she never really has.

has your W ever been on her own?
Yeah, she divorced my stepson's dad when he was 1, 11 years ago. He cheated on her and kept staying out and coming home drunk. She moved 700 miles away to be closer to her parents, to an apartment and went back to school. SHe had very little money then also. I met her almost a year after she moved, she had taken her son with her, so I have been his dad pretty much. 2 years ago, he (stepson) moved to live with his dad and try the schools around there.

The thing is that my W wanted it to be "fair" financially when she moved out. So we agreed that I would just pay all the bils pertaining to our house (where I live) and she would pay everything for the house she lives in. I guess she did not want to have to argue about money. But we still share the costs of gas, car insurance and the boys' daycare. She's still trying to get her business started, but it has not generated any money yet. I really do feel sorry for her in that regard, because this business is her true dream, and she got the opportunity, but it's just not working the way she envisioned. I had mentioned some of my concerns about this about a year and a half ago, but she just told me I was pessimistic about it for selfish reasons. However, I do really want her to succeed, but I think she needs another approach. She asked me 2 weeks ago what she should do and I gave her a suggestion, which she followed! Thought that was positive too!
Hi Sam,

We do seem to have alot of things in common although I think your sitch is a hell of alot better then mine! Thanks for the advice on me not talking to my w about our r. For this reason, I think it is why I am in the pits tank. I know I have to get back on my DBing track of mind. Ive read your sitch and even though your w is living somewhere else, she seems to have a sense of mind that is way better then my w's! My w's attitude just plain stinks. Theres no other way to say it. She is being selfish and thinking only of her self and somewhat of our girls. I think that is why I am in the mood I have been in since Thanksgiving. So I know I have to just let her be. Huge PMA work on my part!

Im fighting a few battles in my head and it involves advice from my C, advice from DBing and advice from my church. I am thinking of changing C's as he is encouraging me to keep talking and expressing my feelings to my w which is what I have been doing hence some r talk. Yet at the same time he isnt giving me any advice on how to save my m. DBing obviously says dont talk about r so I have stopped. My church group just encourages me not to give up, so I am fighting the demons back because I dont want to give up, yet am exhausted from how Ive been feeling. My c just says that if she dumps me, Ill be ok, well how the hell do I prevent her from dumping me then?

Does that make any sense?? LOL!

I am going away tonight on a mens retreat with my church. Im not sure if you are a Christian or not Sam but for myself, turning to God and the support I have been getting from the pastors at my church have been very helpful to me. So I am going to see if I can find my old, confident, take-charge and be a leader inner self again. As Sandi, or S2 as I fondly call her says above, Look and smell good, be good and lead good as well. I know I said that kind of weird, but I think you get the message. Hopefully I will find something this weekend. If not, I know that I have to step it up some more.

So if I can say anything about your sitch is that to listen to S2's advice but keep doing what your doing. Be the best man you can be for your self as well as your kids. That is what I need to do, it already sounds like your miles ahead of me.

Drop me a line and vent when ever you want to. Follow Ready2Change, Coaches, SadMilitaryWife, Smartcookies, and Edges threads as well as S2's. They all heve wicked advice to give and seem to be the leaders that everyone turns to for support, I have and theyve helped me out a great deal.

Talk to you soon.

Joe
I have been following the threads and posts of those you mentioned. They are excellent help!

I hear you about your C! SOunds like he's just standing there on the sidelines giving you advice that could affect the rest of your life while he's thinking: "Is it lunch time yet?". Kind of funny but then again not funny... \:\)

I called my SIL tonight. My W had said that she thought her sister was mad at her after we talked last, so I called her to see if my W had gotten a hold of her and she did. Most of the conversation, she was just telling me stuff she had told my W. I did not say anything about my W and her situation, I just talked about what I am doing, that I am still fully committed, but just had kind of a rough week. I did tell her that I think my W just needs time and space to think it all through, without too much talk.
Hi Sam, sorry I have not gotten back to you sooner. I wanted to try to reply to some things you said. First of all, what you said about how you and your W could be thinking the same thing and how it sent chills over you.......that is not a bad thing, in fact, I would envy any couple that had that type of bonding. It just sounds as though you both were on the same wave link (as I call it) and thought alike and was like "soul mates".

I still think her drastic physical changes had something to do with her other changes. I forget if you said she had always had a weight problem or not, but if she did and then lost the weight, it is like suddenly becoming a whole new person and she has to kind of discover who that person is. At first, she may really like the attention she receives from men that try to flirt or compliment her, etc. On the other hand, she may be shy and really not know how to handle it b/c she never had to. It is all new to her.......especially if she was overweight in school b/c that just does something to girls. If she came home telling you about particular men that "came on to her", then that was her way of wanting to get your male attention stirred up and maybe if see a little jealously there. You see, I used to say a few things to my H b/c I had never seen one ounce of jealousy in him toward me. But, it always backfired b/c I did not receive the response from him that I wanted. He would act mad at me.........and that wasn't what I wanted.

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I think that even she herself is confused about her feelings not coming back. I get the feeling that she does want them to come back, but doesn't know how. Of course, she has never admitted that, it's just a feeling I get from her.


I am sure she is confused about a lot of things right now. She has had like this major "make over" in her personal image and now she is separated from the man she always was in sinc with. You know, I hadn't thought about it, b/c I always thought that would be so great to have that type of R with your S, but perhaps in her case, it assisted in leading her to have that "brotherly" thing and lose a sense of sexual attraction. It is like she thought of you as a wonderful friend and she wanted that a lot, but somewhere lost the desire in the bedroom. Maybe, being separated will help her "miss you" b/c I think that is what needs to happen. She needs to not see you or be able to talk to you. You are detaching and even trying to be dark at times (except where the kids are concerned) and I think that is what you need to do. Hopefully, she will start to miss you a lot.....based on the things she has already said about you not coming by the shop, etc. So, she is taking notice......and that is a good sign. I believe you are really doing a good job by detaching and staying away......and then when you do see her, you treat her politely as you would anybody else, but without any R talks or getting into emotional stuff. So, you are doing great!

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Since last year, she has not asked me to do anything at the shop. I get the feeling that she's trying to prove to herself (and to me) that she can take care of things and doesn't need me.


You are probably right about this, but not in the exact sense that you are seeing it. I think she feels she needs to do this on her own b/c it goes back to her self esteem. Most women that have been over weight for most of their teenage and adult years ahave suffered with very low self esteem. Some learned to cover it up pretty good, but they still had it. So, now that she has improved her physical appearance, I think she needs to do this business all by herself to prove to "herself" that she can do it without anybody's help (especially yours, b/c you were the one she always depended on). If she can do this on her own, then her self esteem will be good and hopefully a healthy esteem. That could be when she will start to come around to changing toward you, as well.

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Should I call them and ask them not to talk to her anymore about this? I was afraid that if I did that, that they would tell her that too Trying to interfere in her relationship with her parents.


I suppose I need to wait until you tell me about the R between her and the parents. However, unless it is a special circumstance then it would probably be best just to leave it alone. Parents usually don't take the SIL's "advice" about their daughter anyway.....even when they are close, b/c they think they know their child better than anyone and most parents are going to do whatever they want to. But I'll see what you have to say about them later.


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It is my belief that if a woman's emotional needs are being met that she can even deal with having the physical needs unmet--if she has to.


What do you mean with "if she has to"? Do you mean she could just live a platonic relationship?


Well, at the time I said this, I was really thinking about doing without material things. However, in circumstances where the H has been physically hurt or disabled and cannot make love to her or do other things that he used to do for her........if her emotional needs are met by him, then I think she could handle the difficulty of other things. This is what I tried to tell my son about his M. He is disabled, and it is actually physically painful for him to have sex with his W. But I tried to explain to him (especially after my M problems) that he needed to talk to his wife and assure her of her beauty and talent and everything else. He needed to verbally make love to her and build her self esteem up. Whatever her love language is.....that is what he needed to give her. When her emotional "love bank" is filled, then she can handle the fact that he cannot physically do those other things like get up and go to work and make a living for his family like he wants to. But if he keeps depositing those emotional things into her love bank......she will be okay. He can still hug her and kiss her and hold her and things like that.

I'm not real sure about settling for just a platonic relationship. I kind of feel like that is what I've had to do on a certain level. But my emotional needs are not met, nor never have been, so I don't really know how to answer that part. I didn't really have a platonic relationship in mind when I said what I did b/c I think a woman needs to be in love with the person she is getting the emotional needs met or she eventually will dry up and feel as though she is dead on the inside......or she will go looking for somebody that will fill those needs for her. Now, I am thinking more of a "metal/emotional" need, but a lot of women's LL is physical touch.....and that usually includes making love. So, it would depend on the individual person. Have I made that clear as mud?? \:\(

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The only thing I am unclear of is when do you stop moving away from them when they come closer? When they are "all the way back" and in love or before that? In other words, when do you stop detaching? I was reading below and saw that you should actually never completely stop. I will have to give that some thought!


I have told the story several times about me asking my grandmother on her 60th wedding anniversary if she had any special advice for me. She didn't waste time in telling me that if you want a good marriage....then you never reach a place that you can stop working on it. Can you imagine? 60 years and still having to "work" at it? I think that when a couple has a sepration, and the WAS begins to warm up to the LBS and as you said, "come closer".....then you should repsond to that move. At fist, be careful and take things slowly. It's kind of like wading off into the water instead of plunging off the diving board into the water. In the beginning as she contines to show herself moving closer to you......you continue to respond by also moving toward her. But, if you move too quickly or you see her begin to act in a negative way.....immediately move back away. A lot of LBS are so eager to get back together with the WAS, that they "over kill" their actions (whatever that may be) and it has a negative affect and the WAS begins to back off or react in a negative way. When that happens you do not pursue and try to start talking R again and doing all the mistakes you did the first time......but immediately apply the DB rules. Just detach a little bit until she is ready to warm up toward you. Even after the couple has reconciled and is living together, you still have to keep remembering those DB rules b/c you will be in "piecing your marriage back together" and if you'll read some thread over in that forum here on the board, you will see that it is no easy task. They seem to have a short lived honeymoon period at the beginning, but then some of those old issues begin to show its ugly face again and you have to immediately apply the principles you learned from DB before it gets back into the condition it did before. That is one reason Michelle tells people to improve themselves.....for them...not just to reel in the WAS. B/c after they reconcile, the LBS will stop all the self improvements and the WAS will see that it did not stick and then the same old problems start over. So, we just have to keep working and using the skills we are taught in DB in order to keep a healthy R with out spouse. I hope I am not confusing you more. It is kind of hard to explain some of this.

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I have tried that last weekend for the first time after I read your advice on another thread. Not to say that I never take showers! LOL I mean take one just before she comes and shave and put on some aftershave. She did not say anything about it, but who knows, maybe she did notice?


Oh, she noticed! Just b/c she didn't say anything doesn't mean she didn't. I can almost promise you that she did notice how good you smelled. Trust me, it just has an affect on females. The next step is to be sure you are always that way when ever you go out or if you take the kids to her or whatever. Just get into that habit. My son has always done that b/c he took it up from his father (lol) and do you know that I have actually had female clerks in stores tell me how polite, etc. my son is.....and then they will smile and say, "Oh, and he always smells sooooo good!" \:D So, see, all females notice that. My boss, who of course I have never been sexually attracted to at all, wears some type of something scented that just has a real good fresh "clean" smell and I love it (lol). It isn't real stong or too musky, just a fresh clean smell. If it did not appear inappropriate, I would be tempted to ask him what he was wearing that smelled so good......lol. My H has always had the habit of splashing a little after shave or cologne on before he let the house....if he was just going down to the corner store.

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I was looking at her sleeping in the car, completely exhausted, passed out... I just get the feeling that she probably can't sleep in her house, constantly thinking about stuff, why she's feeling this way, how come she doesn't feel anything for me when we have such a good time together... I don't know, just a feeling, a vibe I get from her.


In regard to how she was rather underderessed for the concert b/c she left straight from work and she slept on the way back.....I think it is simply b/c she is trying so hard to make her business work and it has her completely worn out. That is not to say she is not thinking about you, Sam. I believe she is going through a transition in her life that she is just going to have to work out a lot of it by herself.......even though you are a part of that stuff she is going to have to work on......most of your part will be to just give her the space and the time she needs to get it all settled in her mind. I know that is very difficult for you.

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Well, the thing is that she's not contacting me as much as a couple of weeks ago... I guess it's hurting my ability to maintain a PMA a little, seems a step back, whe other stuff indicates a step forward... I guess it evens it out?


I think you just allowed your hopes to soar a little too high after some positive things that had been said. That is very typical for the LBS to do. It is also very common for the LBS to over analyze every word and deed and that is one thing that makes them nearly have a break down. So, try very hard not to do that. Don't take every word she says and break it down and try to figure out the "meaning" behind it. Don't take every little move.....like when she was going back into the house after the concert, and she stopped as though she almost forgot and was thinking about a kiss. You are placing too high of a price tag on each word and each move she makes. It will drive you crazy if you don't stop doing that. I have seen played over and over again with LBH's (especially) here on the board. I think the men are worse than the women that are the LBS, but maybe that's JMHO.

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She's still in pretty bad shape financially, and she told me on the way to the concert that she will have to move into an apartment because it is cheaper. I was just asking questions as to is it nice, where is it, where will the boys sleep and such. Just normal interested friend stuff. Of course, in my head I'm thinking, why the HE!! don't you just move back in!?!? My feeling is that being separated makes it harder for us to reconnect, assuming I can keep the pressure of of her even when living in the same house. On the other hand, us living apart does allow me to freely browse this forum and to be down every once in a a while without her knowing about it... Anyways, it's just been a long LONG time and I hope it's going to get better soon....


A lot of it is her pride. Can't you see that if it were you? Would you move back into your W's house just to have a place to live b/c your business was failing and you could not afford another place to live? Of course you wouldn't! Your pride would stand in your way. You have said that this is something she needs and wants to prove to herself, but you are looking at it as if she just needs to come back home and all her problems would be solved. That is b/c your heart is talking there. You are just want her to come home!

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I am just trying to let her do what she thinks will work for her. I mean, from the start of this, she has always maintained that she does want to work it out, but just doesn't know how. The separation (moving out) was her idea and she said that she thought that that would work.


So, now you are thinking with your head. Remember one thing.....and that is if her business fails.....that will be very hard on her pride and self esteem. Think how you would feel as a man if your business failed. Since I don't know her personally, I don't know how she may respond to that. She may be like a hurt animal that wants to go hide and lick her wounds or she may go into a deep depression b/c she feels like 2 marriages have failed and now her dream business failed. I know what you are hoping she will do. You are hoping she will go running into your arms. That could happen, but please, do not hold your breath and don't be too let down if it doesn't. Remember, pride controls a lot of things that we do. If she is the type of woman that wants a man to rescue her......then she may go to you, but otherwise, she probably won't. Just be prepared for anything and do not allow your emotions or anger to get the best of you if she doesn't do what you think she should. That would ruin everything. If the business fails, do be kind to her.....as a friend, but I would suggest that you do not say anything to her about moving back home. Are you listening to me now? I know this has been a long post, but you need to really listen hear and don't fall asleep on me. You are already tempted to ask her just to move back home instead of getting a cheaper apartment......don't do it. She chose to move out on her own......she needs to "want" to come back home to you. I would not offer to let her come back to the house even as platonic friend R. If she asks if she can do that......and that is what you really want.....then that is your decision, but be warned.....don't expect her feelings for you to be changed just b/c she needs a place to stay. It would be better if she wanted to return as your wife and not just as a friend.

Okay, long post....but had a lot to catch up on.

Take care,
Sandi





Thanks Sandi for checking in again and giving me so much good advice!!

Originally Posted By: sandi2
I still think her drastic physical changes had something to do with her other changes. I forget if you said she had always had a weight problem or not, but if she did and then lost the weight, it is like suddenly becoming a whole new person and she has to kind of discover who that person is.


She wasn't overweight in high school or when she got married the first time. She gained a lot of weight when she was pregnant with my stepson. SHe had gestational diabetes and she never lost any of the "baby" weight. She probably gained another 20 or 30lbs over the years with me. The thing is, even though I thought that she looked better in her high school pictures for example, I have always been attracted to her. The thing that did bother me a little bit over the years is the fact that she saw herself as not pretty and overweight. It's like she couldn't understand how I could be attracted to her, but I was. The result was that when we ML, we pretty much always did the same thing. That is also my fault, for not coming up with new things. I think she just grew tired of doing it the same way and she wasn't getting out of it what she wanted, so it probably became a chore more than anyhting else.
However, I was coming out of my depression somewhere in August/September and saw her in a new light. She had probably lost about 30lbs by then, and I do think it may have helped "snapping" me out of it. The result was that I was just all over her, as I just awakened. At first, I think she did enjoy my attention, but pretty quickly, she became more distant and it felt wrong to me. That's when the bomb hit, she told me that she had been unhappy for a couple of years and that she loved me tremendously, but she was not IN love with me anymore, she thought with my lack of interest in her, it was only a matter of time before I would leave, so she grieved over that and got over it (all without telling me a thing). And now that I am completely head over heels with her again, her feelings couldn't be turned back on like a light switch (like my feelings). She also said that she thought it was a weird coincidence that I became so interested in her all of a sudden now that she's lost weight. I have given this a lot of thought, and I do believe it helped me snap out of it, but I am certain that I have always loved her very much. Having said that, it does kind of wear on you when your W keeps asking you how you can be attracted to her (being overweight and not pretty = her words, she always said she was OK, i.e. not ugly). I always KNEW she would feel a lot better if she lost weight, but I couldn't push it too hard, because then I would sound like I was confirming her (untrue) thoughts. Now that she HAS lost the weight, it feels like she doesn't trust the feelings I have always had for her. The bomb hit extra hard because it felt like it hit right when everything started to come together!

Originally Posted By: Sandi
If she came home telling you about particular men that "came on to her", then that was her way of wanting to get your male attention stirred up and maybe if see a little jealously there.


This was early this year and late last year, all after the bomb. And I did get jealous.

Originally Posted By: Sandi
Hopefully, she will start to miss you a lot.....based on the things she has already said about you not coming by the shop, etc. So, she is taking notice......and that is a good sign. I believe you are really doing a good job by detaching and staying away......and then when you do see her, you treat her politely as you would anybody else, but without any R talks or getting into emotional stuff. So, you are doing great!


I am just not sure about the shop thing. That was the #1 thing she said (last year) was bothering her: that I was not supportive of the shop. However, I have TONS of things in there to build it up. I am the one that built pretty much everything in there, so she sees all the stuff I have done every time she's in there. So that's not true. When we had a R talk (started by her BTW...) somehow we came onto the subject of the shop and I told her all the things I had done in there. The she asks me, why are you telling me all that? And I said that she had told me I was unsupportive and she asked: When did I say that? The(surprised) I said last year in one of your long emails, that was #1 thing you told me bothered you about me.
That just tells me how confused she is.

Originally Posted By: Sandi
If she can do this on her own, then her self esteem will be good and hopefully a healthy esteem. That could be when she will start to come around to changing toward you, as well.


I REALLY do hope so!!! Both the success of the shop AND the changing toward me!

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I suppose I need to wait until you tell me about the R between her and the parents.


Well, she's always been the scapegoat basically at home. My SIL, the yougest one, has always been the favorite, by a mile!! I had a conversation with a good friend of mine that works with my W and he brought up a good point. She seems to be constantly trying to gain recognition/approval from her parents by telling them the things she does, the things she achieved, etc, but they are just not impressed. My sister who is a kind of therapist (helps families deal with children with learning disabilities) has told me (and my W) that people will almost always try to "please" their parents, to which my W said that she has given up on that a LOOOONG time ago. But her actions say otherwise: she keeps inviting them over for dinner even though they cancel half the time, she calls them all the time, they don't call her, they do not come over to see the shop. My friend was saying that maybe she can't let the business fail, or it will (once again) confirm her parents opinions. So she's throwing everything at it that she has. Now that I write this, I am not sure how I fit in there, but maybe it triggers some thoughts in your mind?

Originally Posted By: Sandi
Oh, she noticed! Just b/c she didn't say anything doesn't mean she didn't. I can almost promise you that she did notice how good you smelled. Trust me, it just has an affect on females.


It certainly can't hurt, so I am going to keep doing it. I do always make sure I look good whenever I know I will see her. Although she never tells me anything.

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Don't take every word she says and break it down and try to figure out the "meaning" behind it..... It will drive you crazy if you don't stop doing that.


I know. I am trying hard not to get my hopes up about anything, by just hoping for some really small gesture/baby step. That way, most of the time, anything she does goes beyond what I expected.

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I would not offer to let her come back to the house even as platonic friend R.... she needs to "want" to come back home to you


That is exactly what I told her when she said: "You wouldn't want me to move back in as a roommate, now would you? You want me to move back in as a wife." I told her that I want her to "want" to move back in.

You were mentioning in a previous post in here that ther are 2 ways to approach this: be the best friend ever, or completely drop the rope. I thought about that for a while, but I think in my case the James Bond approach might be best LOL :), which I see as sort of combining both. Only a hint of pursuing every once in a while when we see eachother, with periods of no contact in between, to make her wonder a little bit and, hopefully, miss me/my company.

Thanks for all your help Sandi, I do appreciate it immensely!
James Bond, huh. Okay, let me know how it turns out. Should be interesting. Why do men chose James Bond over Rhett Butler???





Take care,
Sandi
Sam and S2,

Ha, ha! The guys choose James S2 because he has an awesome car and a laser watch!!

Your doing a great job Sam, keep up the good work. Way better then me.

S2, what happened to your thread? Are you starting another? I need a good dose of advice from you. Maybe Ill just go back in time and read.....

Keep in touch you 2.

Joe
Originally Posted By: sandi2
James Bond, huh. Okay, let me know how it turns out. Should be interesting. Why do men chose James Bond over Rhett Butler???
Take care,
Sandi


It's just a name... LOL. I know I am completely uneducated, but I have not seen Gone with the Wind or Rhett Butler
But do you see anything wrong with this approach? Think it may work? I don't think going completely dark and dropping the rope will make things better because she said her feelings for me have changed because of me not giving her enough attention, so giving her all my attention would be a 180 for me. On the other hand, I don't want to be pursuing.... It is such a fine line to walk.... Does this make sense at all???

Any thoughts about her R with her parents?
Thanks Sandi and Joe for checking in on me!!
Sam,

Rent and watch Gone with the wind!

About the parents. I would have to say to just be yourself. Be courteous and polite as you always probably have been BUT avoid any R talk with them.

For myself, this is a touchy subject because when my W and I get through this, (Notice I said "WHEN"), then thats when my second major battle will begin, with my ILs. My w's parents have pretty much dropped me off a cliff. Same goes for my 2 BILs. I havent heard or spoke to my FIL or BILs since my D7's b-day on Canada Day back on July 1st. Actually, it was the week before July 1st in June that I last talked to them. And they acted fake, like nothing was wrong. I have a BIL that lives 3 mins away from my front door, and that includes parking the car! (We would drive if its raining!!) I have seen my MIL twice, because she has taken my W on 2 trips and so she spent the night before they would leave at our house. And she pretty much ignored me. And these people called me their son for 12 years. (We've been married 13, but Im not counting this year)

After my w dropped the bomb, I went to talk with them and I could see their disappointment in me because I had screwed up and hurt their daughter. But the only thing they told me was that it was best I pack my stuff up and move out of the house. Thanks alot. I can totally accept that they would and should be mad at me. But to send the message loud and clear that they dont support our M??? That its ok to tell my girls that if you have a major fight, to just run away from the problem and not fix it?? BS!! And I called these people Mom and Dad?? To be honest Sam, Im shocked at their approach to this. OOOOHHH honey, just leave them alone, dont get involved.... I really, really wish they would at least have the balls to say fix it- or do your best to get to the bottom of things and keep your m. Be mad for a while, send him (me) a clear message.

So my advice would to you is that if they still are in contact with you, just keep being yourself. Be strong, show them your changes and have confidence. Its funny that I can tell you this, because it is what I lack the most - confidence. But I am also having a tough week. I just told you not to talk with them about the r. But I also hope that they would want to see you and your w fix and make your m as strong as hell. I just dont get that message from my ILs. It makes me have to wonder just how much they totally accepted me into their family. If I was truly loved and accepted by them, no matter what Ive done or did in the past, and they KNOW how sorry I am for what I did to my W, why wouldnt they be encouraging her to stand up for herself. Find that strong voice that says "I will not tolerate anymore of your crap! So if you and I dont get help to fix whats wrong then we are done!"

I fully understand that where we are now is a result of my w finding her inner voice. She just hasnt learned how to use it yet. She still keeps things bottled up in her and refuses to talk to me about us. I am not going to bring it up either, it gets me no where and it is one of my 180s. But I hate to see her struggling because I just know that she wants to end us, but for some reason, wants to keep our r in limbo land. Yeah, I'm just slightly bitter.

Sorry for hijacking your thread and venting.

Joe
Joe,

You're not hijacking!! Actually... you are... but that's totally OK!!! ;\) LOL

Anyways, my IL's are the excat opposite of yours. They never seemed to care for us (my W and I) too much. Like I said earlier, my SIL the youngest has always been the favorite. I actually see a small, small part of the reason my W and I are in this sitch as their fault! They have NEVER ever watched our boys for us, not even a couple of hours to go watch a movie or something, let alone overnight, so my W and I could go on a short trip together!! My W and I have been on one vacation together (w/o kids) since the boys were born, ONE!! My parents live overseas and they came over here and stayed in our house with the kids so that we could have some time alone.... And her parents live 40min from here!

So I never felt that close to them. NOW, they tell me that they don't understand their own daughter and that they think I am a great husband and father, they don't see anything wrong with me and she should just "snap" out of it, etc... I have told them some things that I know I have done wrong or could have done better, but their reaction to that is one of: we all have our character flaws but that's no reason to completely end the R.

So you see? Sounds completely the opposite! But I am convinced of the advice given here time and time again: the IL's better stay out of it, whoever's side they say they are on!

Had to laugh, when you said: WHEN we get back together, not IF. That is what I say to myself all the time: WHEN we get back together, we will have a R that will be based on such a profound understanding of each other (compared to before all of this) it's TOTALLY worth it!

Keep the faith!
Hey Sam, how are you (James Bond) doing these days? I know one man here on the board who had a success story and that was his character he looked up to as sort of an inspiration to help him when he felt weak. So, what ever works!

Okay, to reply to a couple of things here:

Quote:
And now that I am completely head over heels with her again, her feelings couldn't be turned back on like a light switch (like my feelings). She also said that she thought it was a weird coincidence that I became so interested in her all of a sudden now that she's lost weight. I have given this a lot of thought, and I do believe it helped me snap out of it, but I am certain that I have always loved her very much.


Dr. James Dobson, I think, was the one that use to say that men were like microwaves and women were more like crockpots when it came to getting turned on or interested or their feeling revived.....whatever you want to refer to....it all is about the same as far as how we react as differences in the sexes.

I can understand your W's POV to a certain extent. My H always told me he would love me if I gained 300 lbs......but he hoped that I didn't. (lol) He too, would always "wake-up" and show a lot of "interest" in me when I lost weight and got to looking good. It is just human nature. I think that is what your W needs to understand. It is very possible to love another person when their physical appearance is not one of a super model. What if she had been very thin and could not gain weight? A lot of women are in that boat! However, it is simply her own low self esteem talking. To her, she thinks her looks should be so disgusting to anybody.....especially a man finding her sexually attractive when she is over weight.....it is just beyound her comprehension. It is how she sees herself when she looks in the mirror. Those are her feelings talking out loud. So, she gets in an argument with you, but really she is either wanting you to convince her that she is wrong about what she has always believed or she is in an argument with herself. I know that may sound a bit confusing with me playing counselor here, but I am talking from my own experinece as my weight was a yo-yo over my M years. She may even have found that as her last excuse to hang on to as a way of trying to justify her feelings toward you now. It gets pretty deep.

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I always KNEW she would feel a lot better if she lost weight, but I couldn't push it too hard, because then I would sound like I was confirming her (untrue) thoughts. Now that she HAS lost the weight, it feels like she doesn't trust the feelings I have always had for her. The bomb hit extra hard because it felt like it hit right when everything started to come together!


That is another reason I think she needs counseling for her weight gain and loss issues. For one....after losing the weight and dressing sexy and then she didn't know how she felt about the men coming on to her or exactly how to handle it......that could be rather scary to some women. Some women even hide behind their weight b/c they don't know how to accept a sexy body. That sounds crazy but it is true. It also can be traced back to something that happened in the early years that make them hide behind weight gain. They feel protected in some ways against men b/c they feel they can't possibly be attractive to them if they are over weight. This is why I think your wife feels so strongly about the fact she doesn't believe you could have loved her when she was that way. I think she subconsciously had a "shield" around her and I think it would take a physchologist to get her out of that way of thinking and be able to accept herself as being an attractive person. Also, he/she could help her accept the fact that you actually could/did love her regardless of the weight, but as nature would have it, you responded to her improved body image when she lost weight. But, again, she needs to realize that it is only human nature to respond to positive changes in anyone's appearance or behavior.

It really broke my heart when you told of her R with her family. I never experienced that with my own (thank God), but I did experience it with my in-laws and it was awful. I was always a person pleaser and I wanted so badly to be accepted by them.....especially my MIL. But that was a hopeless case and it took me over 30 years before I finally realized that I might as well give it up b/c it just wasn't going to happen. When I was finally able to do that, then in a way, it set me free and I did not feel that I had to constantly "prove" myself any longer. I hope your W can reach that point before I did. You can actually become a prisoner to a situation like that.

Back to the "shop thing". I would just show her support when you do go by there or talk to her over the phone or whatever. Ask enough questions to let her know that you are interested, but not prying into her business to see if she is a sinking ship yet.

Sam, I know you men get so tired of hearing us say that it takes a very long time. But it does take a looooong time for that crockpot to start cooking. You just have to be patient and keep showing her your best side. It takes a woman a long time to get back romantic feelings when they are gone. It is not impossible (I hope), but it does take a long time. My hope is based on the story of my own parents and a time my mother went through with my dad. She almost lost complete respect and desire for him b/c of the circumstances they were going through at the time. It was the lowest point of their lives. I remember that time very well. My mother's story is that she mentally reached the realization that she could live her life out in total misery or she could begin to "act as if" she was happy and that she admired her husband and was in love with him. That is what she did......and finally, she reached a point that she was not longer acting as if......b/c it was true feelings. She put her "will" into place and then the feelings followed. Dr. Gary Smalley teaches this and I believe it b/c I saw it happen with her. But, I know by myself that it is the hardest thing I think I have ever done. However, we are creeping along and we will get there.......I am one of thos old crockpots that really take a long time (lol).

Well, I need to get in bed, so you take care and I'll check in on you later.

Sandi

Thank you both for checking in on me! I have some little babysteps I want to record (at least in my mind they are).

-We have had several very casual and very relaxed conversations on the phone and in person (when she comes and picks up the kids). Just about all kinds of stuff, frustrations with other people, good news, bad news, her health, etc, just like old times. More often than the last month. Feels like we went through a little dip in communication in that regard, but it seems to be coming back, so I am happy about that.

-She called me earlier this week to vent a little about a frustration with a lady at the boys school. She needed someone to talk to and she called me and it makes me feel good!

-She called again today on where to get some work done on her car. I always used to take care of that, but at least she's not refusing to ask for my help and trying to do everything on her own.

Just wanted to write them down so that I can refer to them and remember them. My mind wanders off into very negative thoughts SOOO quickly, gotta keep my PMA!!!!

Originally Posted By: sandi2
Hey Sam, how are you (James Bond) doing these days? I know one man here on the board who had a success story and that was his character he looked up to as sort of an inspiration to help him when he felt weak. So, what ever works!

Well, I think the character thing is not so much what i want to play, but more of an easy way to remember some guidelines to establish consistent behaviour. A lot of times, I have trouble deciding how I should react to something she says or does and then I can sort of think, what would James Bond do? The main idea I get from this is that I will show her unconditional love (expressed in a non-pressuring DB-friendly way of course!), compassion, and a deep friendship when she comes to me, but I will not physically help her with her problems while she's out on her own. For example, I did not help her move out or move to another apartment. When she comes and shares all these things, I will give her my opinion and advice, but I, personally, won't help with that. Thinking of a character like that to help make decisions on how to respond to her may sound crazy, but it seems to help me.

Originally Posted By: Sandi
However, it is simply her own low self esteem talking. To her, she thinks her looks should be so disgusting to anybody.....especially a man finding her sexually attractive when she is over weight.....it is just beyound her comprehension. It is how she sees herself when she looks in the mirror. Those are her feelings talking out loud.


Those are the feelings I have been trying to get her out of for years!! LONG Before the bomb hit. NOW she does see herself as looking better (she still says she's OK, not looking GREAT, like I think she does!), so it's only normal for her (in her mindset) to think that her change in appearance was the ONLY reason for me to "wake up".

Originally Posted By: Sandi
So, she gets in an argument with you, but really she is either wanting you to convince her that she is wrong about what she has always believed or she is in an argument with herself.


I have been trying to convince her that she is wrong about that, for years, but it seems her feeling that I couldn't possibly be attracted to her (before she lost the weight) just doesn't want to let go. I don't think this is something I can even hope to achieve by my actions or words. She will need to realize this on her own. I will however continue to express my words of affirmation and tell her when I think she looks good (which is pretty much every time I see her). I also tell her why I think she looks good, like today, she had some well-fitting jeans on and I told her she looks good in them. She said that they were too large and she needs to get some smaller ones. She does seem to attach a lot of importance to the actual size she's wearing. To me it's just a number, but I am excited that she's excited when she tells me that she has dropped another size.

Originally Posted By: Sandi
She may even have found that as her last excuse to hang on to as a way of trying to justify her feelings toward you now. It gets pretty deep.


That could be! She's not mentioned any of the other things that she brought forward with the bomb since then, except for the one about the "coincidence" of my feelings changing when she lost weight. And I have told her that she didn't lose all of that weight overnight, but my attitude did (her words), so how do you explain that?

Originally Posted By: Sandi
It also can be traced back to something that happened in the early years that make them hide behind weight gain. They feel protected in some ways against men b/c they feel they can't possibly be attractive to them if they are over weight.


Did you see my post earlier about her having been attacked sexually long time ago? She has expressed the exact thing you are describing to me herself. It could still have an effect.

Originally Posted By: Sandi
I think it would take a physchologist to get her out of that way of thinking and be able to accept herself as being an attractive person. Also, he/she could help her accept the fact that you actually could/did love her regardless of the weight, but as nature would have it, you responded to her improved body image when she lost weight. But, again, she needs to realize that it is only human nature to respond to positive changes in anyone's appearance or behavior.


The next time she brings up R talk and says that she's still open to seeing the MC, I might bring this up in my session by myself with the MC. Would it be too much pressure to bring up the MC from my side? She HAS said that she still wants to go see her during last R talk.

Originally Posted By: Sandi
When I was finally able to do that, then in a way, it set me free and I did not feel that I had to constantly "prove" myself any longer.


I think she's still very much in that situation. And it's not just the parents. She's very persistent in not wanting to dissappoint anyone. Everyone in the town where her shop is asks her for help and she rarely ever says no, so she's extremely busy all the time. The person she is dissappointing is me and she said she can't stand to see me dissappointed all the time. That was her main reason for moving out. So I am trying VERY hard to not let any dissappointment show and show PMA when she's around.

Originally Posted By: Sandi
Ask enough questions to let her know that you are interested, but not prying into her business to see if she is a sinking ship yet.


I think that is the best approach too. That's what I have been doing for the last couple of months.

Originally Posted By: Sandi
My mother's story is that she mentally reached the realization that she could live her life out in total misery or she could begin to "act as if" she was happy and that she admired her husband and was in love with him.


My W actually said something along those lines late last year. That maybe she should just pretend that she's still in love with me, just so I could be happy. I told her that I did not want her to be unhappy and she shouldn't PRETEND to be happy when she's not. Instead we should just work together and see how we can make things better.

Thank you both again!
I'm keeping the faith after my babysteps!
Went to a party with a friend from work (guy) on Sat. My W had said she would take the kids last Saturday night and this Saturday night, so I took the opportunity and brought them over to her in the afternoon and met my friend after that. I had a great time and met some new people that I really get along with very good. A couple of times that night I realized that my W would also really like these people. They would make great friends for us! Anyways, I did have a good time and didn't think about my sitch but a couple of times. I think is was good to show my W that I can make new friends on my own. That's what GAL is!

Had a couple of babysteps again:
On Friday I got a haircut and when I dropped off the kids, my W said that my hair looked good! That was nice to hear!
Then today we went winter clothes shopping with the kids and she picked out a few sweaters for me and when I tried them on, she said that I looked good in them! Also nice to hear!

Anyways, the babysteps keep coming, so I am feeling good relatively speaking of course!

Keeping the faith!
The last couple of days, and even the last week I would say, I have been feeling pretty good! \:\) I try not to think about the R too much and concentrate on work and my hobbies. I have also started cleaning up the house a bit, getting rid of all the clutter. Just figured that if the house looked nicer, it would also be more inviting for her to come home to. Honestly, most of the clutter is hers, but I have decided that that is the way she is and if I can help keep it clear or at least in one room, then I want to help her with that.

Waiting for more babysteps....
I have these moments when I feel so tired of being a single dad half the week, then single period the rest of the week! I really enjoyed coming home to a family at the end of a hard day's work. Now it's sometimes hard to go home, because no one is waiting, except the dog. I am glad she's there though, she does keep me company! \:\)
Hi Sam
Funny, I just clean up the house a bit, my W's clutter.
I know exactly what you mean. My dog is the only one waiting me when I come home. I took her to the doggie park this afternoon. It is nice to get out...
Keep adding those baby steps....
You can do this.

NW626
Thanks nw! Good to know there are others out there in my sitch....

On Tuesday, my W calls me to tell me about her 42 yr old woman friend that recently divorced, how she's now stalking a 24yr old guy she had a relationship with that he broke off (not sure whether that started before she got divorced or not). My W was in her car with her while she was chasing the guy through town! My W told em she feared for her life as she was speeding through red lights, etc... etc... She said she had a crazy look in her eyes, just insane. I guess my W felt she needed to talk to someone about it and she called me! Then later that night she called again to talk more. Feels like she's emotionally connected and intimate with me, telling me everything that's on her mind, even other people's R's (but not our R). So I liked that, made me feel good! \:\)

I think the real thing I have trouble with is keeping up the PMA when it seems we go back a few steps. The last phone conversation ended with her telling me that she would call me the next day. Of course, as I already half expected, no call. I guess I get my hopes up too high when she says these things and then I go in a downward spiral, seeing only the bad things that are happening. But I feel a little better this morning again. It's been basically a year since ILYBNILWY and 4.5 months since she moved out and I just wish things would move a little quicker, especially with the holidays coming up. Don't know what to do with all these invitations to Xmas parties, etc...

I do realize I need to give her more time though. I have gone through a mini MLC between fall 2005 and fall 2007 (when she told me ILYBNILWY is when I was finally feeling better!!), so she's had to deal with me for 2 yrs, now it's my turn. I just read the MLC chapter in DR and it sounds just like me 3 yrs ago. Kind of scary! My W did not have DR then (still doesn't that I know of), so I just think she took things personally (which is COMPLETELY understandable!!) and thought that it was over, grieved and got over it. Then she threw herself on her new business and it's not going well, it's just costing her money right now. Together with having to pay for all of her housing and bills, she's hit "rock bottom financially" (her words during our last R talk on 10/13). Now that she realizes that it wasn't over and I am out of it, she's the one that "lost" the feelings. I don't want to be in that position when she comes out of it, so I am trying to hold on!

We are going to a concert on Sat, so we'll see how that goes. Thing is, when we do go on dates, we have a GREAT time, it's just like old times, except we don't hold hands or anything like that. Every time we see each other, she hugs me and kisses me goodbye... Just keep wanting more!

Need to keep looking for babysteps to help keep up PMA!!!
Sam
I know it is hard to keep the PMA going, but we HAVE to.
It seems like communications between you and W has been good. Keep that up, but don't be pushy, let her open up to you. Show her you are always here to listen. Like you said, babysteps is the key...nice and steady.
Have fun on Sat....let her take the lead.
We are all pulling for you.

NW626
What I am trying to be for her is a best friend. A person she can come to for help, to talk, to vent, etc... but sometimes I wonder if that is also too easy for her. I don't give in to every request from her either, I always ask her to compromise. Like this morning, she asked me if I could do her a favor and take the boys tonight, so she could work on preparing for a show tomorrow. I said ok, but she will have to keep them for a couple of hours after school and then bring them, so I won't have to leave early from work. She said that that would be great and said that that would help her out tremendously. I want to be there for her, but at the same time, I also want her to feel what it's like when I am not there, for her to miss me. But that's really hard to do when you are constantly in touch about kids and stuff...

I always let her come to me and I rarely contact her unless it's something urgent or logistics that have to do with the kids.

Mostly, I just let her do her thing and try not to get upset about anything she does. Try not to get my hopes up... I am just having a hard time again this week....

Trying to keep the faith!!
I just seem to "catch" the rollercoaster ride every once in a while.. Gotta keep myself on the smooth, straight track!
Decided to come on over to your thread \:\)

I think you're on the right track with your W and balancing being there for her and being there for yourself. It sounds like she was agreeable to what you said, and you're right, you can't be at her beck and call. That's not healthy for you and I'm guessing unattractive to her.

My sitch is similar in that it has been a year since I got the bomb. You are going on dates! That's wonderful! She calls YOU when she's upset or scared. That is great! I know how hard it is not to jump for joy when you hear something positive and wonder, ok when are we getting back together, lets work on us, lets go! This part of the climb is so fragile, and so important. Try as much as possible to have no expectations. This keeps you in "moving forward" mode until your W can say to you that she wants you back. Keep venting to us. Don't be needy or clingy. Show confidence. Show off that new, improved Sam! She will continue to respond to that.
Thanks faithrunner!

I know! It's hard to keep a certain distance when your spouse is showing these little improvements. I am trying to set low expectations when I know she's coming over to bring the boys or pick them up. I also took Sandi2's advice and shave before she comes, then put on some aftershave so I smell good. I make sure I am wearing something that I know makes me look good.

I hope we can make some progress before the holidays, but I am trying not to get my hopes up too much.

Staying on the straight smooth track!
Sandi's advice is gold! Thanks for finding my thread. I have to admit I've moved to T2L's camp, come join us anytime!

Looking great makes a huge difference, I think. It's all part and parcel of the same theme-we're still moving forward. I wear a perfume that he first bought for me years ago, and I know he remembers it. I think smelling good is a really powerful tool. Probably gets your W thinking, wants to get closer to you.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you for the holidays. Today is only Nov 7th, and you were the best Sam you could be today. Keep up the good work.
I'll check out that thread! Thank you for your encouragement! It really helps!

About looking great, she's lost a tremendous amount of weight (close to 70lbs over the last 1.5 years!!), so she looks fantastic! I have lost quite a bit of weight myself over the last year also, close to 30lbs, and she's let some comments slip every once in a while, so I know she notices it. It's like she doesn't want to say it too much but sometimes it just slips out as a reply to something I have said. But I catch it and know that she noticed.

My W had invited me to her art show, the one she had to prepare for yesterday. This afternoon she texts me "It starts @ 6, when will you be here?" and I reply so and so late and ask if I need to bring anything and she replies "Perfect! Nope, I already have everything! :-)". I arranged for a babysitter a couple of days ago and did not tell her. When I arrived I walked in and she noticed me, smiled and walked over and gave me a hug, right in front of everybody. I had set my expectations super low and did not anticipate a hug or anything remotely close to a display of affection, especially in front of all her friends, so that was a nice surprise! She asked where the boys were and I joked that I just put a movie on and they'll be fine until I get back. SHe laughed and thanked me for geting a babysitter. Don't really know why, they are always with me on Fridays, so it's my responsability. I told her that I thought she (and I) would enjoy the evening better without having to police the boys the whole time. She agreed.

Most of the time I was there, I just talked to everybody and was having a good time. I did not talk to my W barely at all, just everybody else. Our mutual friends seemed to enjoy seeing me again and hearing from me, so that was nice. When it became time to leave, I told her that I was leaving and she walked me to the door and outside and we talked for a bit in private. She asked me if I liked it and I said that I thought her art is wonderful, that I enjoyed myself and that it was nice show/party. During the show she introduced me to a couple our age with small children that she met not too long ago and she asked me what I thought of them and wouldn't it be great to hang out with them. I told her that I couldn't agree more, they are a great couple we would get along with great!

Then she reached out for a hug, so we hugged and usually she will give me a kiss afterwards, but she didn't. In the past, I have sometimes initiated and given her a kiss in those cases, but I had set my expectations low and did not think she would kiss me anyways in front of all her fiends, so I didn't either. I am thinking maybe she wanted to see if I would try to kiss her. Anyways, I am giving that WAAYYY too much thought.

Just wanted to post that I am proud of how I did today! No clinging to my W for her attention, I showed all of her friends that I am a great, interesting guy that knows how to enjoy himself. And all of this right in front of her. I looked my best, wore the shirt she got for me a while ago that she said looked good on me, shaved, put some aftershave on that she got me, did not pursue and give her a kiss... One of her complaints about me was that I did not show any interest in her art shop, in that sense it was a perfect 180. So in summary, if you can't tell, I feel really good about how I handled the situation tonight.

Keeping the faith!
Hoping people are still following!
Sam! You did great last night! You showed W how much her art meant to you, looked nice, interacted positively with everyone. That really got her thinking. I think her mentioning that couple was a safe, small "olive branch" extended to you, that wouldn't induce R talk but would still give her an idea of where you stand, so to speak. And, you responded perfectly. Very casual, focused on the couple she mentioned and not the two of you.

As far as the kiss goes, I think her hug was a "thank you" for the evening. I bet she has a lot to think about, and maybe didn't trust herself to kiss you tonight \:\) You DB'd like a champ. You exuded confidence. I am really proud of you!
Hi Sam,

Just checking in on you. Sounds like the art show was a step in the right direction for you. Who really knows what is going on in your W's mind and heart, but from what you've described over that last few days, she does seem to be trying to connect with you, and that's a good thing, I would think!

And you handled yourself well! Let her make all the moves. That's something I'm struggling with right now, so I know how hard it is, but I think you did great! Good for you, keep it up!

I know how you feel about the holidays. For me, my sitch is just too new for me to have any hope for this year. My H has said flat out that he wouldn't be making any decisions before the end of the year, so I know this is going to be an awkward season for us. My only hope is that missing our usual traditions with the kids will spark something in my H, but I have to keep reminding myself to not get my hopes up too high. You've been dealing with this a lot longer, though, and while I think you need to keep your expectations low, too, you are seeing positive signs, so who knows? It's up to her, and you can't control that, so just make your holidays the best they can be for YOU, no matter what happens.

Keep hanging in there, I think you're doing well!
Faith! Thank you for checking in!

Originally Posted By: faithrunner
I think her mentioning that couple was a safe, small "olive branch" extended to you, that wouldn't induce R talk but would still give her an idea of where you stand, so to speak.


Don't really understand what you mean with this. Do you mean to check whether I still want us to hang out together with other couples? That would be fairly forward looking and thus good!
LHS, thank you for stopping by!

Thanks for the encouragement! I am seeing little babysteps all the time, so I am feeling positive.

We went to a concert on Saturday night and had dinner before it started. On the way there in the car, we had a nice relaxed conversation, nothing serious and no working to keep the conversation going. Over the last couple of weeks, it feels more and more like old times, where we would just talk and talk and time just flies by. No more awkward silences and stuff. So it feels good to me!

{I need to tell a little sidenote about her engagement ring before I continue: since she had lost so much weight, she couldn't wear her rings at all, they would just fall off. In May, for our anniversary, I did something pretty risky (knowing DB) and got her engagement ring resized and gave it back to her. I told her that I wanted her to have the ring and be able to wear it because it symbolizes my promise to her that still stands. I did not get her wedding ring resized because I thought that would be too much.}

So to get back to what happened last Sat: During dinner, we had more great conversations, we just enjoyed talking about the food and how good it was, all kinds of other things, how her business is going, etc.. I noticed during dinner that she actually was wearing her engagement ring again. Now, she has worn it before, every once in a while she will wear it when we go on a date or sometimes even at other times. But not that often, so it is special and does mean something to me. She was also wearing a couple of other rings that I had given her over the years. So I do get the feeling she's trying to do things, wear things, and think of things that she thinks will revive her feelings for me... that's what it looks like to me!

She has a small tattoo on her inside wrist, which is after a piece of art. My mom had taken her to an exhibition during the summer of 2007 of that artist and she said, out of the blue, that the tattoo reminds her of my mom. Again, it seems to me she's trying really hard. I just don't know if it's working....

Here's another one: She had said a few weeks ago that she wears a certain perfume because it reminds her of the city where my parents live (overseas). That is where I took her on her first trip with me overseas.

I guess my mind is just trying to run out in front of the train along the tracks and hoping that's where she's heading and I can't wait for her to pick up the pace and get closer. I just need to not do that and follow with her at HER pace. I am getting encouraged by her behaviour though and get impatient sometimes. On the other hand, giving her unconditional love and maintaining distance becomes easier, because I don't have as strong an urge to pursue.

Then on the flipside, she's still talking about picking out a color to paint the boys room in her apartment.... Sounds like she's still thinking about staying a while...

What do you guys read in all of this?

Keep counting babysteps!
Hi Sam
I am happy for you. Your baby steps are getting more frequent.
I have to agree with you. I think the wedding ring may be too much for now. Trust your gut instinct....!!
Keep up the good work and stay patient....!!
More good signs will come.

NW626
Yes, I think it was her barometer to see if you felt as positive about the evening, like she did. And, yes, I think she is starting to make plans with you in her mind. That's really good progress. She wants to include you in her future. \:\)
Quote:
Trust your gut instinct....!!


That's what I am doing the most. I keep in mind the most important principles of DB and then try different things to see what effect it has. For example, going really dark doesn't work in my sitch. (It also would be almost impossible to do becasue of the boys) I think it's because I have been ignoring her in the years I was depressed and that's how she got where she's now. For the most, I am just trying to let her do what she feels like doing. I DO extend invitations to join me and our children to do stuff or come over for dinner or just to hang out and watch TV. The hard part is not to feel rejected when she declines, but I am getting better at it!!

I am feeling better lately with all the babysteps that are coming. Thanks for checking in on me!
Hey Sam,

Sounds like things are going pretty well for you. I'm glad for you!

Being good friends is a required step to romance. So that is reason for celebration. But while friendship is a required step, it doesn't guarentee that W will move to the romance step. So celebrate your victories, but keep your expectations in check. Don't want you to set yourself up for a fall.
Yes, I am trying to keep my expectations in check! It's hard! Seems even harder now that there are some positive things happening.
Little update on the past few days:

My W has been living in a small apartment without heat and it's getting cold out. I said that she's gonna need heat pretty soon, because it is only gonna get colder form now on. So far, she has been saying that she has alot of blankets and that it's not that bad. Well, the last few weeks she's been getting sick and our boys stay over there too and they have had colds on and off. On Sunday, I saw the apartment for the first time (she used to live in a house but couldn't afford the rent anymore) and I checked the furnace to see what the problem was. Turns out, the furnace seems fine, but there's no gas hooked up to the building, and no meter. We had a nice lunch all together and then I left with the boys (she was not feeling good). I told her she could come over to the house and eat dinner with us and she said she would see how she felt that night. Later, she calls me and says she still feels like crap and will just stay there and go back to bed. She also said that she won't go to work the next day and she can pick up the boys, so I can work later. She will bring them to the house later and maybe we can have dinner together then? I said that was a good idea.

She texts me in the morning that she's looked into what it's gonna cost to get the gas hooked up and there is gas piped to the building, and only the meter is missing. So she's not ignoring what I am saying. Earlier this year, it seemed like anything I say was just dismissed. Then, at night, we eat dinner and she tells me that she really likes what I made!

Next day, she texts me: "Gas is being hooked up today, will have heat finally!" I reply: "Good! :)" Then she texts me: "Btw, you are getting good at the cooking thing :-)" WOW! Was that a compliment? An UNSOLLICITED compliment? I keep thinking of Sandi's comment that a woman needs to admire a man before she can desire him. Maybe I am on the right track? I know she also takes note on my running, every once in while if I have done a good run, like broke my personal record or something, I will text her about it, like in I want to share my accomplishments with you. She's always responded to those with some humor, like: "Congrats!!! I can run 3 miles in about 8 hours! :)"

On Tuesdays, she picks up the boys from the house when she gets back from work. I had gone to Home Depot to get her a Carbon Monoxide alarm, since that furnace hadn't been used in so long, I wanted her and the boys to be safe in her place. After we put the boys in the car, I give it to her and she's very appreciative of it, she's all smiling, leans over to me, like give me a kiss, and I do, she reaches out and runs her fingers on my stomach (it's a thing she used to do a long time ago and she's done this twice in the last week). Writing this, I feel like such a little schoolgirl, getting all excited about these tiny little things, but they are tiny little steps in the right direction (I think).

As far as the heat goes, the gas got hooked up, but the furnace has a problem, her landlord is getting that fixed now. So STILL no heat!!!

Anyways, some more babysteps I think.
Keeping the faith!!
faithrunner, lovehimso, nw and all others, keep checking in on me! I appreciate your views on this!
Now all of today goes by without any contact... Expectatiosn are creeping up again....
Good approach Sam. Don't fix... just show concern. The monoxide detector was a super excellent choice. Demonstrates your concern beyond just words.

Keep it up! But slowly...
Quote:
She will bring them to the house later and maybe we can have dinner together then?


Quote:
Then she texts me: "Btw, you are getting good at the cooking thing :-)" WOW! Was that a compliment? An UNSOLLICITED compliment?


Quote:
After we put the boys in the car, I give it to her and she's very appreciative of it, she's all smiling, leans over to me, like give me a kiss, and I do, she reaches out and runs her fingers on my stomach (it's a thing she used to do a long time ago and she's done this twice in the last week).


All good signs, I would think. As a woman, the touch thing is especially telling. Now, I am not her, so I can't say for sure, but my guess is if she wasn't feeling something for you, she wouldn't be doing that.

I think you are doing well. Try not to let a day without contact get you down. I know that is SO much easier said than done, and something I am not good at doing myself. Days like that send my into a downward spiral, and I know it's not healthy. But, I guess that's why the whole DB process has been referred to by so many as a rollercoaster.

On the flip side, try not to get TOO excited about the positive changes you are seeing,either. Again, I say this because I know firsthand the consequences of ignoring this advice. Accept them for what they are, small steps, and not necessarily absolute indicators of how things will be tomorrow, next week, or next month. It takes time.

Thanks for checking in on me! I'll come back and check on you, too. Hang in there!
Sam you are doing great so keep up the good work. Her not calling could also mean that she is evaluating her inner self to see if she really does miss you - or she just got busy. What ever it is, dont worry about it. MHO is that she is coming around and that a break through is imminent. You never know. Just keep doing what your doing.

Check my thread out, the last couple of days have been interesting for me as well.

Joe
Thanks for the encouragement guys!!

I really do feel like it's heading in the right direction. Just some mroe stuff that has happened since then...

Saturday, she was going to come to the house for dinner. I took the boys to the store and got groceries and decided to try and make this recipe I got from my mom (never tried it before, but she said it was very good). So I am starting to cook and got the boys fed before she got to the house. Got Kung Fu Panda for them, so they were busy watching that while she was in the kitchen watching me cook, asking me what I am making and we talked about her business and gossip about the town her shop is in. We were (AGAIN) having a great time as we always used to do. She brought her guitar to show me how much progress she had made. She also brought me some fudge from the art fair she was at in the afternoon. So she's interested in sharing her interests with me and thnks ahaead and brings me something back. Was really happy with that! THinking about it, she's brought me more things over the past couple of weeks: CD's with music she found and thought I would like, bread she got at a local store that she tried and thought I would like... All positive things in my mind!

So we eat and she says how good it is. After we finish eating we have some more wine and eat some cheese. The thing is, that is all stuff that we always used to do and enjoy together until she got so busy with her business. The she plays some guitar for me, I tell her great it sounds and how much progress she has made, which she really did!

Of course, in my head, I keep thinking: so what exactly IS the problem here????? I have great time, she has a great time apparently, so what is it?? I know the answer , or at least I think/hope I do: she does feel a connection with me, but doesn't really trust the feeling right now. Does that make sense??

My W takes them every other Sat night, so I can sleep in on Sunday morning. So when it's time for her to leave with the boys, we put them in the car and close the doors, then she comes up to me and smiles very happily and hugs me, we let go and then she kisses me, and then she looks at me, smiles again and comes back for another hug! I was just really happy after that!!!! It felt like a milestone!!

Now for the downside, as you guys have warned me, my expectations crept up since then and when I saw her tonight, she wasn't nearly as warm to me as on Sat.... Got a hug, but no kiss, she said she was feeling like crap (sick) and told me not to kiss her as she did not want me to get it also. She also did not want to stay and eat (was just cooking) because she said she couldn't eat, she was just feeling to sick right now. Anyways, in my mind I was a little sad, but I did not let her know that. I said that I was going to make what I was making anyways, so it didn't matter whether she ate here or not, now I would just have some lunch leftover for tomorrow.

So just can't wait for the next babysteps!!! I just need to keep at it and not get my expectations up! After all this time it's just hard not to! I have been watching for this kind of stuff for a while... What gets me is how she still seems to be planning to stay in her apartment for a while, so I shouldn't expect any major change anytime soon apparently....

I will check on you LHS (read 3 pages tonight) and Joe soon!!
Hey Sam
Your progress is outstanding.
I know it is hard to keep the expectation down or none.
This is a very good sign from your W, but she could be still scared and confused about all these improvement about your R.
Be patient and continue on what you have done so far....it works wonder for you.
More baby steps to come....!!!

NW626
Originally Posted By: Sam1007
she does feel a connection with me, but doesn't really trust the feeling right now. Does that make sense??


Hi Sam,

Yes, you are right on the mark. Building trust takes enourmous amounts of time and effort. It must be 'earned' little pieces at a time.

Plus, W feels like your changes only happened since she dropped the bomb and moved out. They often worry that the changes only exist because of the seperation. If they move closer to you, then the 'old' Sam will reappear.

So they really don't move closer (at least in their mind). Rather, they just 'hang around' enjoying the moment. Now, the good news is that people's unconcious will slowly move them closer in tiny little babysteps. It happens soooo slowly that the W doesn't even notice. But with each babystep the trust slowly builds in a subliminal sort of way.

But it takes a long time.

Good news is that your relationship is way ahead of many folks on this board (including myself). Just keep your expectations in check and keep plugging away.

I would not worry about the second encounter at all. Try to take things at face value. Wife said she was sick and she probably was. A perfectly reasonable reason to avoid contact and be more reserved. Everyone has up and down days.
Thanks for your words guys!! I appreciate it!

Yesterday, my W was supposed to pick up the boys at the house and take them to her place (like every Tue), but she had to work late. So she called to say that it was just gonna be too late and I should put them to bed. We ended up just chit chatting for about 20 minutes, talking about all kinds of stuff, joking about things that happened at work, you know, normal stuff you talk about after your day at work. Was nice!

For those of you that remember reading earlier about a couple she met and wanted me to meet at her art show: she said on the phone yesterday that she had talked to them about going out the 4 of us one of the next couple of weekends when they are kid free and we can get a babysitter. That was REALLY nice to hear!!

Overall, I am happy about the progress, just trying to keep doing what I have been doing, since it seems to work, without getting my expectations up too much.

Thanks for checking in on me!
Sam
That's wonderful.
I am happy for you that you are making such a good progress.
Keep counting those baby steps.....

NW626
Thanks for stopping by again, nw!!

Not much happening today, since the boys are at my W's place, so I have the place to myself. W is still sick also, so don't hear much from her.

We'll see how the weekend goes, my stepson is coming over for Thanksgiving tomorrow, so that will be fun!

Keeping the faith!
So when are you going to get your xmas tree?

I've usually always followed the 'must be after Thanksgiving' rule. But Thanksgiving falls a little later in the month than usual, resulting in only four weeks between Thanksgiving and Christmas. Plus, I'm just excited to get going.

So I may go this weekend to get a tree.
I have a 'must be after Thanksgiving' rule also, and I will still obey it! ;\)

Next weekend I guess!

W wasn't touchy at all when she came by this afternoon, no hug, no kiss, nothing, she did seem happy to talk to me though, my stepson (her son) was with her at the time though, so I don't know if that has anything to do with it? I have been his stepfather since he was 2 (he's turning 13 next month), so he's as close to me as to her or his biological dad. Just don;t follow her, but then again that's normal I guess....

If anybody has any explanation for this, let me know! Do the WAWs go wider in the expressing affection range when they are starting to feel something?

Any help appreciated!
Looking for babysteps!
Hi Sam,

My wife is inconsistently sensitive about how she acts when the kids are around. She is typically hesitant to do or say anything that might get the kid's hopes up that we might get back together. For example, she is extreamly hesitant to go out to dinner as a family. So that could totally be why your wife wasn't touchy today.

I say wife is inconsistent because she will talk on the phone or even argue in person with kids within ear shot. It's like its ok for kids to hear bad but not good. Go figure.
Thanks TG! I appreciate your view of the sitch! Is your W starting to turn around? Or does it seem like she is?

This weekend, I had to have a not so fun convo with my W about money. We still share some bills, like the credit card we use to get gas and the car insurance and payments, and of course the boys school. To make a long story short, we agreed to just put gas on the credit card and also when we eat together we use it. Well, since my W was very short and money, she kept using it more and more for her groceries and other stuff. At the same time, she's not been transferring what we agreed on into our joint account to pay for those bills. So now she's 3 months behind on that and I can't just keep taking money out of the boys savings account to cover that! So I told her we needed to talk about that.

When she came over to pick up the boys yesterday, we had a calm discussion. She said that she had a lot of bills to pay and said she doing the best she can. She also said that she knows that those are not my problems and so she gave me back the credit card and said she just wants to separate as much things as we can. She said she does not want me to have to stress out about her putting money in the account. I told her I don't have any money left after paying all the bills for our house either, just my savings, but I don't want to use any of that for bills. She was not mad or anything, just said she knows that her not keeping up is stressing me out and that we agreed to make the separated sitch "fair" financially (she pays for her place, I pay for our house), and that is not what's happening.

Afterwards, we had a lighter convo about Thanksgiving. We're going to her parents and we are cooking stuff together at the house and then we'll bring it over there.

Overall, I don't see a negative reaction in her over this, but I feel bad because I know I am putting her in a pinch. But on the other hand, I can't jusy keep covering her expenses either. Setting boundaries, right?? Like tough love??

So maybe I did good in that sense. Like I said, she didn't seem mad at all, just apologetic. I hope we can still keep the babysteps coming despite the more dire financial sitch she's gonna be in....

What do you guys think??
Hi Sam,

I think it is very important for WAW to see what divorce will really be like. They are making a choice to leave and every choice has consequences. So I totally think you did the right thing.

Yes, I do think my wife is coming around a bit. And I'm certain it comes from the exact thing I just talked about in the previous paragraph. For a long time after the bomb I was going out of my way to support her. Financially, Emotionally and Physically (helping her with problems... even going over to her place and plunging the toilet).

So she had this fantasy life in mind where she was going to live this 'totally free and independent life' and keep me as a best friend forever. Basically it was like being married, except no committment on her part and no sex.

So I kept engaging in R talks with her, trying to <tell> her that D would suck... It never worked. She just kept pushing further and further down the divorce path.

Then one day I 'dropped the rope'. And many people say that is when the LBS gets back 'the power'. It was totally true for me. I stopped helping her. I still listened, if she called me, and validated. But I stopped calling her. When she talked about problems, I stopped volunteering to fix them. I stopped telling her what I was doing in my life. I stopped telling her what the kids did when they were at my house.

When she asked, I told her that I was moving forward with my life, with or without her.

For awhile, she got pretty pissed and kind of crazy. She was pissed because her fantasy was evaporating and I wouldn't play along. But I just ignored all that and pushed onwards. Pretty soon, she gave up and realized that things were going to suck if we were divorced.

Now suddenly things don't look so good for her fantasy life. The last week she has noticably warmed up and has stopped all mention of D. Hmmm...

Anyway, all situations are different. You are seeing positive baby steps with your current approach. So I would not advocate that you follow my path for now. "Dropping the rope" is the ultimate risky DBing technique. You don't need that yet.

Keep up the good work!
What I am not sure about is this: One of her major complaints was that I did not support her business. (Disregarding the fact that we spent $5k of our savings and I spent a lot of weekend hours on setting the place up, and I loaned her $ to start an inventory). But the reason she's hitting the bottom financially is because her business is costing her money every month, always has been, right from the start a year ago. She was doing ok when we were sharing bills, but now that she lives on her own, she's just not keeping up with her bills. Collectors are calling the house. I am debating whether I should tell her to keep the little bit of money she is supposed to put in the joint account after returning the credit card to help with some of her bills for her business. Would that be so bad? If she does not have to put anything in the joint acct and has no way of overspending on the credit card, then I won't have to get stressed out about it. It basically means that if she still runs out of money, I have NOTHING to do with it, as I am actually helping her pay some of her bills.

What do you guys think about that?
I don't think dropping the rope would be working in my sitch. It seems like what I am doing is improving things, but VERY VERY SLOWLY.... Every time I do something that I think will piss her off, like talk to her parents and sister, she does get really pissy and does not contact me for a couple of days, but then warms up again. And it seems she warms up a little bit further each time we go through one of these cycles... Does that sound familiar to anyone??

Right now, she's little more cold and distant again after we had our financial discussion. Hope it results in a couple more babysteps...
Hi Sam,

No, I specifically noted that dropping the rope is probably not the best answer for you right now. But it may be someday.

It goes back to something I posted a while back about friendship being a step on the road to romance. All the support builds goodwill and friendship. But you never quite know if it will help you get to the next step: romance.

In my case, my wife wanted to live her independent fantasy life. My support was enabling her fantasy, in essence enabling her further towards D. Now other WAS may be different. They may be open to romance and the support moves you closer. You just don't know.

So keep doing what your doing and monitor. If you start to see that your stagnating, the baby steps stop, then consider a different course. But not now.
My wife has a home-based business and she complained about the same thing: my lack of support. Like you, it wasn't true. I've done alot of thinking about this and talked to IC about it.

It's about lack of accountabilty and low self-esteem on their part. The 'fact' is that their business isn't performing. They see that as a personal failure. So they start rationalizing, playing the 'if only' game:

If only the economy was better.
If only I didn't have competition.
Blah Blah.

But they can't control any of the real reasons. So they fall back to anger transference. Pretty soon its: If only my husband supported me.

That one is great for them. It makes it seem as if everything they are doing is perfect. It discounts or ignores all the real problems that they can't deal with. And it puts the blame on something which they have some degree of control over.

I talked to C about 'blame' our last IC session. My wife blames me for alot of things beyond her business. When she has trouble with kids, she blames me too.

C talked about how blame is an immature\childish coping mechanism. The child learns that they can avoid accountability by blaming something else. As they mature into adulthood, the hope is that they will learn accountability and recognize blame as a crutch. But that is very difficult to learn and some people learn it better than others. He also noted that people who do learn it sometimes regress when under stress and start blaming more.

The good news is that seperations encourage people to become more self-sufficient and accountable by their nature. So your wifes concern with lack of support may slowly start to resolve itself.

You need to decide what to do about the financial stuff. But making changes to your arrangement is more support and in some ways relieves her from being accountable and self sufficient. It's a bit counter productive. It might generate goodwill, but may slow her progress in becoming accountable for her business.
Actually, a while ago, I posted that when I was telling her all the things that I had done for her business, she asked me: "Why are you telling me all of this? I know that!". I then told her that my lack of support for her business was THE major complaint about me that she had. The she asked me: "When did I say that?" And I told her she told me when I got the ILYBNILWY talk. So apprently, she changed her mind about that already a little while ago. In general, she has not been blaming me for anything the last couple of months, especially after she moved out.

Re her business accountability, I don't see it improving anytime soon. The people living around here just aren't that interested in spending money on art, especially in the current economic situation, which is a SHAME, because she has BEAUTIFUL stuff!!! I told her my concern about this 1.5 yrs ago before she started her business and that did not go over too well, maybe that's when it all started? I have always told her that I think her art is beautiful, I just had concerns about the marketability in our area. I think that right now, she's probably more dissappointed in it not being successfull than blaming me. If I could figure out a way to help her make it successfull, I think that would help our sitch a lot. Just don't know how I would do that...

While I was typing this post, she messaged me online and she seems very upbeat, asking me to review her newsletter she's putting together and what I think about it. Yesterday, she was very distant and cold, so it's getting better again.

Looking for babysteps!
Something I hadn't shared earlier: On Sat, I was working in the yard and managed to lose my wedding ring, which I never take off and which I have been wearing all through the current sitch. My W had come by the house between the time I last know I had it and when I realized it was gone, so I told her what had happened and asked if she had noticed if I was wearing my ring when she came by. She said she had not noticed whether I was wearing it or not. (I had noticed she was wearing her engagement ring and another ring I got her for Xmas a couple of years ago tho!). I looked for it most of Sunday and then again Monday, didn't find it. I kept thinking: what kind of f@#%ing sign is this! I had called a few friends to see if they had a metal detector and one of them gave it to my W to give to me on Mon morning (she was not coming by the house until Tue night tho). A coworker brought one into work on Tuesday, so when I got home I went out with it and found it after about 20 minutes!!!! My W comes by the house to drop off StepS and the metal detector and I tell her I won't need it after all because I found it. She seems glad and asks where I found it and I tell her. And now I think: what kind of a really GOOD sign is this! \:\)

Also, when she pulled up, she immediately walks up to me, kisses me and then hugs me. She takes the time to show me her newsletter again with progress, talk about the lost ring, even though she is already 20 min late for a meeting she is supposed to be in. She had told me during the day that she wouldn't have time to eat at the house because of the meeting, but she was late and so I had already cooked dinner and made a little package to go and handed it to her in the driveway after she hugged me. She thanked me for that.

I was just reading over in Techguy's thread a post about getting respect from your WAS and that that could help bring feelings back. I am starting to think that maybe the fact that I told her the money sitch wasn't working as it should has shown her that I am not just gonna keep covering her expenses?

Yesterday, my W contacts me again and asks for my advice on the newsletter in its' finished form. I compliment her on an awesome job, she really IS very good at that kind of stuff!

We'll see how today goes! Looking for babysteps!
Sounds great, Sam!

Happy Thanksgiving!
Thinking more about the newsletter stuff, and other things, I am really convinced her major love language is Words of Affirmation. And I try to give those to her any chance I get!
I was reading an article about people that have lost a large amount of weight and how they sort of lose their personality temporarily. It said it can take a while to find it again. I thinking this is something that could also have an effect on my sitch. Anyone have any experience or knowledge on that?
Anybody have any ideas on the above??
Sam
I am not sure about losing personality.
I have lost more than 40 pounds since my sitch started.
I feel like I gain some confident because of the weight loss.
I guess this is a good change.

How about you?
What do you feel?

NW626
I also feel more confident, but not like I am lost as to what I am and what I like. But my W has lost about 70lbs and at the same time got into her WAW state of mind:

-Her taste in music changed (slowly coming back somewhat I think over the last month or so)

-She used to play video games (now she says that she can't believe she used to do that, what a waste of time...???)

-We used to watch a couple of tv shows together (now she says she deosn't have time to watch tv, but she's slowly getting into some of them again, she watched one of tem online when she was sick a couple of weeks ago)

Just a few things I have noticed over the last several months... She is/was definitely different in her tastes for a while, maybe her old tastes are slowly coming back?

I was just wondering if maybe she thought she was different and is slowly rediscovering herself?
Hi Sam
Losing 70 is a really big change for anyone.
I think it affects women more because they tend to concern personal appearance more than men.
Since she has lost the weight, she looks and feels better about herself. She now has the confident that she can show the outside world. She doesn't need to stay home and hide anymore, play video game and watch TV.
No one really knows your W changes are temporarily, only time will tell.
If the changes are not temporarily, are they bothering you?

NW626
{{Sam}} Just figured I would return the favor of you stopping by my thread..it sounds like you are doing great with the babysteps with your wife and just to keep on keeping on!

Did you get your tree?

Tawnya
No, the changes in itself are not bothering me, especially the video games thing. I never was that much into it as she was, but I did enjoy playing every once in a while. And about tv, we were watching 2 or 3 shows a week, so it's not like we were couch potatoes or anything. I did enjoy those times though and talking about it. Actually, I love most of the changes! I have always told her I wanted to get out more often. I wanted to do things with her other than stay inside.

What's bothering me is that now that she FINALLY WANTS to do that kind of stuff, she doesn't seem to want to do it with me!! These are things I have told her would make her feel better about herself. I have told her these for a long time. I have tried to increase her self-esteem for years by complimenting her a lot (when I was depressed I probably did not do this as often though). And now that she has better confidence, she decides that she's not in love with me anymore? How am I supposed to feel about that!!?? It seems like she's keeping herself very busy and I think that is keeping her thoughts away from thinking about our sitch and where it's going.

So, now that I talked myself back into negative patterns again, I have to remind myself of the positives: whenever we get together we always have a good time, no arguing, we have fun together, she has not mentioned a D at all since this all started, always saying that she wants to work on getting back together, says that she's trying to get her feelings back (and her actions do confirm that most of the time).

I would also appreciate a woman's perspective on this!
Thank you Tawnya!

I did not ger a tree yet and I don't think I will. I saw some being sold on the side of the street while driving with my W and she reminded me that she's allergic to the real trees. So, unless I don't want her to come over at all, I should just use the fake tree that we already have. I am planning on pulling it out and decorate it with the boys on Sat!
Gotcha..yeah we got a fake tree last year as well, which I don't mind..we will be putting it up I think this weekend too..if hub doesn't get it out for me by then I will have to get my son or daughter to help me lug it out myself!! \:\)

Tawnya
Tawnya or LHS,

Any opinions on the weight/personality issue I mentioned above from a woman's perspective?
Quote:
I was reading an article about people that have lost a large amount of weight and how they sort of lose their personality temporarily. It said it can take a while to find it again. I thinking this is something that could also have an effect on my sitch. Anyone have any experience or knowledge on that?
Hi Sam. Saw your message on my thread and thought I'd pop over to give some insight (for what it's worth).

A little background about me: I have struggled with my weight for years, since before I met my H. When I met him, I was at my lowest weight in several years, and was still on my way down. However, in quick order I had two kids, and the weight creeped back up. Then the marriage started to go bad, I got depressed, and the weight REALLY piled on. I am incredibly embarassed to admit this, but at the beginning of this year I was up to 265 pounds. I was an unattractive slob. I vowed to myself to make a serious dent in that weight, or else look into a lapband in 2009. Up until the point my H left the house (9/30), I had only lost 12 pounds.

After he left, I was so distraught I could not eat. I mean, really, I just could NOT physically eat. I would get sick, almost to the point of vomiting. I started losing weight quickly, as you can imagine. That stabilized after a couple of weeks, but I did not really regain my appetite. When he admitted his PA (10/23), it got worse again, back to the feeling sick when I ate. More weight came off.

Now here it is December. I don't get sick when I eat anymore, unless I eat too much. And too much is not THAT much, it's what a "normal" meal used to be for me. And I've only done that once or twice. I have found that my habits have really changed for the better. Even though I COULD eat more, I find that I don't want to and I'm not using food to mask my depression like I used to. I'm not even really that hungry, and food doesn't have the escapist appeal it used to. It's like I was forced to start new eating habits, and now that I could go back to my old ways, I don't want to. So, while I really wish that my H hadn't left me and wasn't having an A, these circumstances forced a change in my lifestyle that I had not been able to do on my own for years.

I am now down to 220. My goal is 210 by the end of the year. From there, I still have 50 to go, but that doesn't seem so daunting anymore.

Okay, now, finally to your question! :-) From my perspective, I don't think that someone who loses a large amount of weight loses their
I agree with Love..you don't necessarily lose your personality. However, I do know a gal that was really heavy and then lost the weight and became quite skinny..she definitely DID do much more flirting and had much more "guy attention" obviously and it did cause problems in her relationship with her fiance.

Also, it will definitely give you more confidence more than likely because you will feel better about yourself and hopefully that will spill over into other areas of your life. On the other hand, it really makes you have to "deal with your issues" because you don't have the weight to "hide behind"..

So, I don't think they lose their personalities as much as get sucked into getting "new" flattering attention and not knowing how to handle it, i.e. if someone has always been "pretty" they are use to it, would blow it off, or just take it and go on, if you know what I mean by that?

I'm sure that really didn't clear up anything LOL!! But, I hope it helped some \:\)

Tawnya
Well, my wife was always "chubby", but not exactly obese.

I married her like that and I had no issue with it. I never once asked her to change, and in fact, I came to appreciate the curves of a real woman.

She, on the other hand, would complain about her weight and make comments about skinny girls on TV and how she would like to lose weight. I know now she has self-esteem issues.

As she approached 40, she was more serious about her appearance and I was supportive. I even cooked her special meals for nearly a year while she exercised and the weight slowly came off. She went from a size 16-18 to a size 4 in this period and suddenly found herself attractive to other men for the first time in her life.

One thing led to another, she hooked up with an OM from her work, and here I am now. I think it no coincidence that our trouble began once she completed her weight loss.

I admit I am a bit bitter about this fact.
Okay, this really sucks! My answer to your question got totally cut off! WTH?

Let's see if I can remember what I said and try this again. I know I won't be able to say it the way I did the first time, but I'll see if I can come close.



Okay, now, finally to your question! :-) From my perspective, I don't think that someone who loses a large amount of weight loses their personality. When someone gains a large amount of weight, there are usually emotional and psychological issues involved. I think what happens is the "real" person gets lost under all of that, and when the weight comes off, you struggle to remember who that person was. I know I am struggling with that myself.

And I don't think it's the weight loss, per se, that causes it. It's the fact that no longer are you trying to "eat" your problems. You're having to find different ways to deal with your depression, marital problems, whatever it was that you were trying to avoid in the first place by busying yourself with food.

When you're heavy, I think you tend to drop into a depression, even if you were already depressed before the weight came on. But the weight gain exacerbates it. You begin to feel worse and worse about yourself, not only about your appearance, but about the fact that you feel like you do not have control over it. You begin to question if you have control over anything. You don't go out and do things as much, because you're down and because of the weight you don't have very much energy even if you WANTED to go do something. Which continues the downward spiral of depression and eating to try to drown all of those scary thoughts.

Once you break that cycle and the weight starts to comes off, you are faced with all of that emotion, all of the questions about yourself. You begin to realize that you don't really know who you are anymore, because you haven't done anything for yourself because you thought you weren't worth it. You're still not sure you're worth it, because look what a failure you have been all this time!

Anyway, I don't know if your wife is going through any of these issues, but I would guess that she is. She's struggling to find herself again. She has to learn to feel good about herself again. And that's a whole new way to live, which can feel very scary because you're not used to that. I know that's how it is for me. And I'm not even really at that point, yet, completely, because I still have a long way to go to get to the weight I want to be. But, I am no longer dealing with my emotions by drowning them in food. I'm having to face things head-on. It's really a whole new way of life, and it's uncomfortable. It's a good thing, but it's not my comfort zone.

It's amazing to realize how much TIME I used to spend with food. Planning meals, shopping for food, cooking, thinking about what I was going to eat next, cleaning up the dishes from all those meals and snacks. Now what do I do with all that time? Gotta find something to fill it, and I can't even remember anything else that I like to do.

I hope that helps, Sam. I know I kind of rambled, but I hope you can glean something from my experience that will help you understand your wife a little better.
I appreciate you sharing your story. The advice given back to you from other members has been helpful to me in my situation as well. I too have made the mistake of confiding in my bil and mil. I feel exposed now because once spoken, words are never forgotten. I just posted my story last night and wanted you to know reading your post before I signed up encouraged me to put myself on the table as well.
WOW LHS! You are really losing a lot of weight! That's great! Hopefully your H has noticed this and will be made to question his choices even more!

Just a quick recap of my W's weight sitch: My W was about 180 when I met her and I thought she looked great! Of course, she did not think so and was always kind of hiding, not wanting to go out and stuff, wearing black loose cloting, etc... I have always told her that I think she looks good, trying to pick out clothing for her that would make her look good. However, during the time I was depressed (~2 yrs up to fall 2007), I don't think I said these things that much at all. She has consistently stated that she wants to lose weight, but with having twins and the housework that comes with that, she gained weight and was around 215 at her heaviest. We have done some dieting together, because I wanted to lose weight also, but it never was successful. When she told me that she wanted to lose weight, I told her that that was a good idea, but that she does not need to do that for me. I know this sounds like I am just saying this in hindsight, but it's the honest truth: I loved her the way she was when we met, when she was heaviest, now... I told her that what I want most from her is to be happy with herself! She had always wanted another tattoo, so I thought that I would give her an incentive to achieve her goal (that she set at 160) and told her I would pay for her next tattoo when she achieved that. During my depressed period, I'm sure I wasn't as confirming of my love as before, and that is when she was heaviest.

Then she started taking a migraine medication that causes you to lose appetite and that's when she really started losing weight. She got to 160 last Dec (so after the "bomb") and I paid for her to get a nice tattoo in Jan. By late summer she got to 136 !! and that's where she still is at. So her weight is stable since about July/August. She still keeps me up to date on what her weight is, without me asking anything. For the past year, I have been telling her again on a regular basis how good she looks, and she still brushes it off most of the time (with a "I'm ok" response, like she used to when she was heavier), but the last couple of months, sometimes I get a "thanks!" (mostly with sort of an embarrassed look on her face). Thanks is all I ever needed her to say, like she knows I mean it. She used to always tell me that I HAD to say that because she is my wife, like I don't mean it.... Then she lost all that weight, I got out of my depressed state and started telling her again that she looked good, and I think she took it as confirmation that I WAS just saying it before and ONLY NOW I really mean it. This is the recurring thing in her head (and she has told me this, last time was a while ago tho, maybe June?). In her words: "I know you told me that you were depressed before and didn't give me much attention because of that, but to me it's just a strange coincidence that now that I have lost weight, you give me a LOT of attention!". Earlier in the year, during our R talks, I have told her time and time again that I have always loved her very much and that my depression was work-related. I did feel a little neglected because she started spending a lot of time working on her business she was starting (Spring/Summer 2007), but that was not the root cause of my depression I believe.

As far as her art and work, I have always been impressed with them and I have been, and still am complimenting her about those things. She seeks my opinion on most of her work even now and I tell her, which I am pretty sure she appreciates, because it looks GREAT all the time. As far as her weight, she will tell me what size pants she's wearing on a regular basis. On Thanksgiving day, she wants to show me the tag on her jeans (which is in the back, inside the waist) so that I can see that they are size 6 and she lifts her shirt a little and pulls out the waist so I can see the tag. She stood with her back to me and I did not know what she was trying to do and so I look down and say: "Yes... very nice... very sexy!", she did what she usually does and ignored that and acts a little embarrassed and says to look at the tag, that it's a size 6! To that I said that's great!

All of this makes me think that she still doesn't know what to do with the "guy" attention (not just from me, I'm sure), it might still be overwhelming to her? But she does still seek out my words of affirmation (both in her work achievements as well as her looks). With those actions, would she be trying to see if I am still consistent and trying to convince herself that my words are genuine? Could the "thanks" responses be an indication that she's starting to realize that maybe I was being honest before with my compliments about her looks?
Quote:
WOW LHS! You are really losing a lot of weight! That's great! Hopefully your H has noticed this and will be made to question his choices even more!

Thanks Sam!

He's noticed, but I don't know if it's making him question anything. OW is still significantly thinner than I am, so I don't think it plays a role right now. I did wear something a bit more, how shall I say this, "form-fitting" than I usually do on Thanksgiving (something that showed off "the girls", if you catch my drift), and for the first time in a long time, he said I looked nice. Now, I don't know if that's just because it was a holiday and he was just trying to be nice, but I'll take what I can get.

Right now most of my clothes "hang" on me, because I'm not willing to spend a lot of money on clothes that I hope will be too big on me soon, but I have had to buy three new (increasingly smaller) pairs of jeans just so that I had a pair of pants that fit! Pretty much everything is too big, so I think that is actually hiding to a certain degree how much weight I have lost. When I actually do get some better-fitting clothes, I'm sure he will take more notice.

Actually, I kind of like the idea of seeing him one day and finally wearing some clothes that show off my new body! I'd love to see a look of shock on his face! I'm only 30 pounds away from where we were when we got married. I know that sounds ridiculous, ONLY 30 pounds! But considering that I have lost 33 pounds in the last 2 months, it doesn't seem like that much to me right now. I figure by Easter, I could look even better than I did the day we got married! And if he still doesn't want me, then I am sure SOMEONE will!

From a guy's point of view, how much of an influence on your feelings for a woman is her weight? Especially in my sitch, being so heavy to begin with? Oh, and considering that H has actually told me that my weight is an issue for him? (Don't worry, I'm losing the weight for ME, not for him. This is something I have needed to do for a long time, and for health reasons as well, high-cholesterol and pre-diabetes issues).
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All of this makes me think that she still doesn't know what to do with the "guy" attention (not just from me, I'm sure), it might still be overwhelming to her? But she does still seek out my words of affirmation (both in her work achievements as well as her looks). With those actions, would she be trying to see if I am still consistent and trying to convince herself that my words are genuine? Could the "thanks" responses be an indication that she's starting to realize that maybe I was being honest before with my compliments about her looks?

Could be that she's trying to see if you're consistent. It seems like she wants you to know how much weight she's lost, since she keeps telling you her weight and she wants you to know what size she is wearing. Keep complimenting her when she does that, and even when she doesn't. When I tell my H about something like that, it's because I'm proud of myself and I want him to notice my accomplishment. I want him to be proud of me, too. I don't know if that's how your wife feels, I can't read her mind (neither can you), but I might venture to guess it is.

As far as not knowing how to handle guy attention, I can only say that for myself, I don't even know what that is anymore! So, if I found myself in the position of having guys take notice of me, I certainly would not know how to handle it. I'd have to re-learn that whole "scene".
Originally Posted By: Superstar
She went from a size 16-18 to a size 4 in this period and suddenly found herself attractive to other men for the first time in her life.

One thing led to another, she hooked up with an OM from her work, and here I am now. I think it no coincidence that our trouble began once she completed her weight loss.

I admit I am a bit bitter about this fact.


This sounds pretty much like my sitch, just without the OM. I think she might have been toying with the idea of a EA in the spring/early summer (before she moved out). We had lunch together one day and she told me that a (married!) girlfriend she went out with was meeting another guy and that he seemed more interested in her than in her girlfriend and then he called her a couple of times. The girlfriend got really mad at my W a couple of weeks after that and they are no longer friends. My W said that she needed to tell me all of this to get it off her chest and she wanted me to know about all of this. She also said that she kept thinking what a wonderful friend he would be for me (same interests and everything). He has, since then, met another woman and has a relationship with her. Both him and his girlfriend are still in touch with my W and I met them at the art show that I mentioned a couple of weeks ago. I have to agree with my W that he would be a wonderful friend for me. I do trust what my W has been saying about this situation, 99% sure that nothing went on, but I do think that she might have been tempted because he was such a nice guy. After I met them at the art show, she asked me: Aren't they nice! Wouldn't it be nice to hang out with them? She then told me that if I see a bunch of texts to certain numbers on the phone bill, it's probably them. They are the couple that she wants to go out with together with me.

Even though he is now unavailable, maybe this is still playing some role? Thinking back, she did move out after she met him and she's still in touch with him and his girlfriend. Just don't want to dwell on this as there's nothing I can do about it, but I would like to understand how this could be affecting my sitch.
Tread lightly here, Sam. If it were me, I wouldn't be trying to get all of you together or encouraging hanging out with them, even as couples. If your wife WAS ever tempted by him, you're running a risk here. I mean, it could happen with ANY couple you guys spend time with, but why allow a situation where there might already be an attraction there, either your wife's attraction to him, or his attraction to her?

Trust your gut here. You admitted you aren't quite 100% sure nothing happened; you said 99%, leaving the door open for doubt, no matter how small the crack. Even though this other guy now has a girlfriend, that doesn't mean a whole lot. And I'm wondering why his girlfriend tolerates another woman texting her boyfriend? And how good of friends was your wife with the friend who is no longer talking to her because of this guy? If your W didn't care anything about this guy, why was she willing to lose a friend over him? I would think that if she didn't care one way or the other about this guy, she would have just told him to get lost, and she would still have the friend. And I hate to say this, but sometimes people tell a partial truth in order to gauge what someone's reaction to something is going to be, or just to create a plausible reason for something they know someone is going to question (and that they know is wrong, like all the texting?).

Sam, I'm sorry to be saying all of this. Maybe it's just because I always tend to think the worst, or maybe it's because my H had an affair, still is having it, and I think I've heard it all. But it sounds like you're worried about this, and frankly, I think you should be. It all sounds a little fishy to me. Hopefully, someone else can come around with a different perspective and set your mind at ease instead of making you feel worse like I have probably done.

But I always appreciate it when people here give me their honest opinion. It doesn't help to bury your head in the sand. It might be easier for a while, but it always come back to bite you in the a$$.

Feel free to argue with me, tell me to go to he!!, or present more facts that might change my mind. I really do hope and pray that there is nothing more going on than what your W has told you.

I'll keep checking back in with you Sam. I hope you can do the same for me!
Originally Posted By: lovehimso
From a guy's point of view, how much of an influence on your feelings for a woman is her weight? Especially in my sitch, being so heavy to begin with? Oh, and considering that H has actually told me that my weight is an issue for him?


I would like to say that it has no influence, but if I am 100% honest, I would have to say that it has some influence. For me, I can honestly say that how a woman feels about her own weight is much more important than the weight itself. Of course, if someone weighs 400lbs it's a little different, but within the kind of weights we were mentioning previously, I think this is true. If a woman feels good about herself, it shows and that's attractive. I can also say with certainty that very skinny is not attractive to me at all. I always told my W that I need some CURVES! And that is the honest truth! I was attracted to my W when she was 215 and I am attracted to her now that she's 136. I will admit that she looks better now than before, but a large part of that is that she feels better about herself and makes an effort to dress nicely every day. However, the most important influence to me is the way a person makes me feel. My W and I just got along so good and made each other feel good, THAT's the most important influence on my feelings.

Having said that, that is me, some guys seem to have more issues with weight. On the upside, if your H is one of those guys, and you are losing a lot of weight, then that it is bound to have a big impact on his feelings for you! In any case, your own health has to come first and losing weight for you will make you feel better about yourself, which will show itself without you even trying and any guy will pick up on that!

Originally Posted By: lovehimso
And if he still doesn't want me, then I am sure SOMEONE will!


That's RIGHT! I, myself have lost over 40lbs since last year October, so I am feeling pretty good about myself also. I want to get under 200, that would be good, so 15 more pounds. I hope that women will pick up on that confidence also! I do notice that I am getting a little more attention from the women at the office actually, it works wonders for my PMA!
Originally Posted By: lovehimso
And I'm wondering why his girlfriend tolerates another woman texting her boyfriend? And how good of friends was your wife with the friend who is no longer talking to her because of this guy? If your W didn't care anything about this guy, why was she willing to lose a friend over him? I would think that if she didn't care one way or the other about this guy, she would have just told him to get lost, and she would still have the friend. .....
I'll keep checking back in with you Sam. I hope you can do the same for me!


Well, she texts the girlfriend also, they had lunch together a couple of times... It does feel a little weird to me I have to admit. As far as my W's girlfiend is concerned, she wasn't friends with her that long before this happened, maybe 6 months. It's when they started going out together that she noticed that all the girlfriend was trying to do is flirt with other guys when she was trying to have a nice time with a friend. My W said that all she was good for when she went out with her was an alibi to her H and that she was sick of it (her words exactly). Other women my W knows and also know this girlfriend said she did the same to them and that's why they don't want to have to do anything with her anymore. The girlfriend situation does make sense to me, I am just not 100% sure about the sitch with the guy and his GF, although when I met him, he did seem to be very committed to his GF... So who knows...
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If a woman feels good about herself, it shows and that's attractive.

I agree with this statement. One of the big reasons I was reluctant to have sex with my H was because I felt so bad about how I looked. I know men are visual creatures and I thought my husband would be repulsed by me. Especially since we hadn't ML in a long time, and I had gained a lot of weight since the last time we did, I was really scared that if we did try to be intimate, once the clothes started to come off, he would be turned off, maybe even to the point of not being able to perform. I just didn't want to take that risk.

And now that he has confirmed that my weight was an issue for him, I don't feel like I was crazy to feel the way I did.

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In any case, your own health has to come first and losing weight for you will make you feel better about yourself, which will show itself without you even trying and any guy will pick up on that!

Really, I AM doing this for me. This is something I have wanted to do for a long time and this is the most success I have ever had, not just because the weight is coming off, but because I feel like I finally have victory over my food "demons". I feel like I had been in bondage to the food, it was the only way I knew how to deal with sh** in my life: escape it by watching tv and eating all day.

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I, myself have lost over 40lbs since last year October, so I am feeling pretty good about myself also.

Good job, Sam! 40 pounds is definitely noticeable. I know how good it felt to see my best friend, who hasn't seen me in over a month, and have her say, "oh my god, you're so skinny!" Not that I'm anywhere near "skinny", nor do I ever want to be (I prefer to be a little "curvy" myself, and don't like skinny guys, either), but it was obviously noticeable to her that I had lost a lot of weight. And it felt great!

Now, anyone else looking at me for the first time, their first impression is still going to be that I am overweight. I'm still over 200 pounds, and that's pretty fat for a 5'7" woman. But I'm gettin' there!

I'm sure you'll reach your goal Sam. And I'm sure your W will notice, too! She's obviously conscious of the whole weight issue because of her own weight loss, so I'm sure she has noticed yours as well. Has she said anything to you about it?

Well, it's getting late here and I really need to get to sleep. I'll talk to you again soon.
She hasn't said anything about it directly. When we did some winter clothes shopping with the boys a couple of weeks ago, she picked out some sweaters for me and when I tried them on she did say I looked good. So I think she does notice but doesn't feel like giving too many compliments at this time I guess.

I think my W felt similar to you as far as the ML goes. She always insisted that the lights be off. I told her that it is exciting to me to see what I am doing and to who I am doing it, so sometimes we would leave a small light on, but I think she probably still was uncomfortable about it. I also told her that I am attracted to her the way she is. However, I did notice that over the last year that we still ML (haven't since Feb this year) she never initiated it. That made me feel like I was "using" her for my pleasure and I didn't like that feeling, so I initiated less. In the spring in MC, she asked me why I did not initiate sex as much anymore and I told her how it made me feel when I initiate pretty much all the time, to which she said that she doesn't always have to be in the mood, that we could have had sex just to have sex. But she had told me in Feb (when we stopped) that she just couldn't anymore because it didn't feel right. To me, that sounds like we cannot have sex just to have sex. She said it felt like ML to her brother (like a platonic kind of love I guess). Later, close to the summer, before she moved out, she asked me if I was getting frustrated. She then said that she knows that I am "helping" myself, that she understands why I am doing it, but it is bothering her. She then said something that I remember well because it confused the heck out of me, she said (while crying): "It really sucks that I cannot ML to you!"

So, what would you make of that? Just trying to understand her better. Thanks for your insight!!
Had a Xmas party with my sailing club on Friday night, W couldn't go because of the shop, but I went anyways, dropped off the boys at her shop on the way to the party (she had agreed to that). Went in dressed up, smelling nice (thanks Sandi for that advice I think it helps a LOT!), talked for a little bit and left. She told me to tell everybody hi from her... was a little confused on that, because she doesn't know these people barely at all....??

On Sat, there was a Xmas parade and so I hung out at her shop for a little bit while waiting for the parade and things were very relaxed. I was able to keep myself very detached and it was good!

Had a good date with my W last night, went to see a movie and had a quick bite to eat before. We had great conversations just about all kinds of things, just like old times again... But I was able to be detached, act cool and be a best friend. So I think it went good!

Footnote: I would still like a woman's perspective on the post above... Thanks in advance!
Hi Sam and LHS,

I can identify with a lot of what you two are saying. I have had to fight depression and weight since I was a teenager. My H would tell me the same thing as you tell your W, Sam. However, when I did lose a lot of weight, I could tell he was excited and could hardly keep his hands off of me. I have never lost it as quickly as your W did, therefore I would tend to think that it would affect her mental and emotional part as much as the physcial part. You are doing right, I think, by continuing to tell her how good she looks, but if you can work it in occassionly, I would throw in that you have always thought she looked good b/c you were attracted to who she was on the inside as much if not more than the girl on the outside. I know her LL is words of affirmation and she needs that from somebody. Whoever gives it to her will be the one she will want to hang around with b/c it feeds her ego. I wonder though if you pulled back just a little with the compliments.....what would she do? Have you tried that? It's like it doesn't mean as much coming from you b/c you are her H. If she hears it from somebody else, then she is more convinced and it means more b/c she knows they didn't have to say it, etc. It is hard to explain on paper what I am trying to say. She was already having a lot of issues about her body image and the fast weight loss has compounded those issued in my opinion. The thing is, if the doctor takes her off the medication, she will gain it all back. Then what will she do? I am sure her doctor has realized the weight loss and if he is what he should be, he should get suspicious of why she is taking it. I have not heard of anyone taking that everyday. Does she take it everyday? I don't know how it would make her lose weigt unless it was everyday.

Anyway, the holidays is a wonderful time to show off your best side, as far as your looks are concerned. So, to you and LHS, take advantage of doing that. If you have a party or anywhere to go and know your S will see you at any part of the event....before, after, or during.......knock 'em out with your outfit and yes, how good you smell! If you don't want to buy new clothes right now, you can have your old ones alterated by a seamstress. Having clothes too big on you is not very attractive either. Although, it is better than seeing rolls and bulges.

Well, I don't think I gave much advice or said what you were looking for Sam, but all you can do at this point is wait for her to try to work through a lot of stuff that she is going through. I understand how she feels about "ML to her brother" and it is not something she wants to feel. It is very frustrating. I could go on, but I need to get ready for work. I will check on you laters.

Take care,
Sandi
SANDI!! Glad you stopped by!

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You are doing right, I think, by continuing to tell her how good she looks, but if you can work it in occassionly, I would throw in that you have always thought she looked good b/c you were attracted to who she was on the inside as much if not more than the girl on the outside.


I try to do that when I can. On thanksgiving day she showed me her old driver's license with her pic of when she was heavier and said: Look how fat I was!! I told her I still think she looked pretty. However, it's been at least a couple of months since I last told her that I love her for what's inside of her more than the outside. I used to say that all the time when she was heavier, but I guess that never really sunk in.

I haven't really tried not to give her any compliments although I certainly don't do it every time I see her. I also try to give her compliments on things other than her appearance, like her art, her webwork and her designs. For the last couple of weeks she has made it a point to show me what she has made lately and it looks awesome as usual and so I tell her. She asked for comments on a newsletter that she did and I told her about a few things I would change and she replied: Good catch! Thanks for looking over it! I am seeing some improvement coming from those things, so I am keeping it up!

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She was already having a lot of issues about her body image and the fast weight loss has compounded those issued in my opinion.


Do you mean her body issues and her issues with our M?

About the meds: she's been off of it for about 4-5 weeks in Sept-Oct, but she has strated again at a lower dosage. She did not gain any weight back during that time tho. I think it just helped her persevere with what she wanted to achieve anyways. And yes, it's an everyday preventive medication and she says it does help prevent her migraines but she still has regular headaches.

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all you can do at this point is wait for her to try to work through a lot of stuff that she is going through.


Sounds like you are saying to stay the course with my current actions. So I am doing pretty good? \:\)

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I understand how she feels about "ML to her brother" and it is not something she wants to feel. It is very frustrating.


Do you think that's where the: "It really sucks that I cannot ML to you!" is coming from? She would like to get back to ML to me, but just doesn't know how to, just knows she doesn't want it to feel like "ML to her brother".

Thanks for stopping by again! BTW, I have been religiously applying your "nice smell" suggestion. On Sat, I was on my way to her shop and realized that I had forgotten to put on some aftershave, so I turned around and went back home to do that! LOL! I also burn scented candles in the house so that it smells nice in there when she comes by.

Also: what are your thoughts on this other guy friend that I was posting on above? Do you feel like that could have played or is still playing a role in all of this?

Thanks again everybody that's checking in on me!
Hi Sam, yes I think you are doing a wonderful job at DBing. I don't know what else you could do to make it better. You are not complimenting her too much and yet you are doing it enough. I am afraid I'm not much help in the bedroom department since I had some of the same problems. I still do not know the answer.

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Do you think that's where the: "It really sucks that I cannot ML to you!" is coming from? She would like to get back to ML to me, but just doesn't know how to, just knows she doesn't want it to feel like "ML to her brother".


Yes I really do, Sam, b/c she does not want to feel like she is ML to her brother. She wants to feel passion! That is what I wanted so badly and I felt nothing. The only thing that I know to tell you is to keep being attractive and acting sexy. Be charming in everything and act sexy in everything. Sometimes after we've been married for several years, we seem to forget how to do that....lol. But, I fully understand not wanting the lights on while ML, etc. B/c I was there. Then when I lost weight.....I was like a different person. I was fun in the bedroom. I really wished there was a good therapist to help her....but I am so leary of them b/c it is very hard to find a "good" one. So many of them are sex perverts or messed up themselves....lol. It's not funny, I shouldn't laugh, but it is getting hard to be able to trust some professionals anymore. Has she ever said anything about getting counseling for her "issues"? I just be they all tie in together.

Anyway, continue doing what you are. Be careful not to discuss her to anyone b/c she will be very sensitive about that. Good job on the after shave. She may not say anything.....but she notices!!

Take care,
Sandi
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