Gone Dancin's Dilemma, 3 - DivorceBusting.com

Ahhhh, born again!

Hi!

Is it weird that we all locked at the same time, or what?

That's just how we roll, still! $;\)$

It'sike there was an electrical current that shot across the Northern Hemisphere.

DBers of a feather lock together!

ACK!! That's BAD! $\:D$

I know, I'm so pathetic!

Actually, I loved that GD!!

Actually, my puns often know no bounds. It can be quite sad, really.

Thanks though, Nomo! Glad someone can appreciate some low grade wit!

After reading Sandi2's post to CVA explaining the potential mindset of WAWs, I'm wondering if I should implement "the last stand talk" with W in the coming weeks or not. I'm strongly considering getting the "women's infidelity" books that she mentioned.

I think I'll ask Sandi if she'll give me her opinion too. Maybe waw1978 too (if she comes back -- haven't heard from her in several days).

GD

GD

You got an E Mail address , I can send you those and save you $25
.

Dave

You are too rad, Dave! seeingtheforest@hotmail.com

Are they worth the read? I'm guessing they must be if you're going to send them to me.

I have read the second one not the first. They are worth the read , It will be some stuff you may not want to read .

Dave

Dave or GD - if you don't mind sharing, please send them to me too at nomopo@hornfans.com. My read of the website sounded like they were more designed for the woman to read than for the LBS. True? Also, sounded like they dealt more with PAs and EAs, but I'm not sure about that.

GD - can you elaborate on why you are reconsidering your last stand talk? Fear of pressuring her? Your sitch just seems so different. You have had so little contact relatiive to many of us, you went very dark for a while, and you have a D date set in mid-August.

Nomo

Let me know if you get them , I have the worlds poorest internet connection

sent to you too Nomopo

Dave

BTW, GD - that Bosie State / OU game was awesome. I'm a huge college fan. What's the schedule look like? Any "big" games?

Hey Nomes,

I will send you the books if Dave doesn't.

Quote:

can you elaborate on why you are reconsidering your last stand talk? Fear of pressuring her? Your sitch just seems so different. You have had so little contact relatiive to many of us, you went very dark for a while, and you have a D date set in mid-August.

I guess it is the fear of pressuring her, and causing her to be more tentative and short with time when she picks up the kids. I feel like I've made some good progress in the communication between us, only to have it potentially dashed if the talk is perceived negatively by W. I don't want to revert back to square 1, you know? And if this is what happens, it will take so much longer for her to invest in the notion that my going dark is really due to me moving on with my life. She will probably say to herself, "Yeah, I've seen this before. He did it for a couple of months and really wasn't moving on like I thought he might've been." I just hate/fear that possible outcome.

What do you think (and what makes you think that "the talk" is a good idea again?)? Have you read my rough draft of what the talk will likely entail, and if so do you have any constructive criticism to lend?

GD

GD - I'm gonna crash, but my personal opinion is that you shouldn't worry about those concerns too much. I don't see it playing out that way. Let me elaborate tomorrow. I'm spent tonight. And yes, i did read your draft and had at least one suggestion, but let me read it again tomorrow. That's what I hate about thread locks - you lose momentum. You may want to repost the letter and related questions on this thread.

G'night,
Nomo

PS - Dave hooked me up.

Most exciting game in college football history, and I don't care what anyone says! Unfortunately, no big games/big names on the schedule. Best game to be played in Boise (besides our Idaho civil war game against the Idaho Vandals, which will be a blowout but fun anyway) is probably against Nevada on Oct 14. We also play a home game against San Jose State on Nov 3rd, which may be a decent game (we only beat them by 2 pts last year -- scary game!). That's about it at home. Washington might be our biggest challenge, though Fresno State and Hawaii will be up there. It'll be interesting how the season plays out relative to last year's miracle!

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my personal opinion is that you shouldn't worry about those concerns too much. I don't see it playing out that way. Let me elaborate tomorrow. I'm spent tonight. And yes, i did read your draft and had at least one suggestion, but let me read it again tomorrow.

Thanks Nomo -- I look forward to your insight.

GD

Thanks for the books, Dave!

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They are worth the read , It will be some stuff you may not want to read

Believe me bro -- I've been through a lot in my life at the young age of 28. It may hurt, but I do want to read it if it will help me understand my W and where my R/M really is.

Thanks again.

GD

Hey all,

Since my last thread recently locked up, I'm bringing some items that are important to me to get feedback on over here from there.
Any WAWs 2 cents would be esp appreciated! This is in regard to "the last stand talk" I'm debating about giving my W prior to D day:

DB coach agreed that I should say something to W about the possibility of putting a hold on the D as D day draws nearer. However, she felt that I should avoid saying anything about "the R with OM not panning out." She also felt that I should add something along the lines of "You know the door is still open a little, and no one else has my heart right now," (the rest is my addition to it -- haven't kicked it around with coach or anyone else yet):

"I'd like to give us another chance to work things out with a clean slate, and go nice and slow with no expectations and strings attached. If it doesn't work then we can always follow through with the D at that time. I was a fool to file in the first place and I never wanted this D. I understand that you very well might, but I'd like you to consider saving this M one last time, because I think we can. I know I've made a lot of mistakes over the years, and I can never take them back. However, I have finally owned them and released them. They are the past and I've made a choice to leave them in the past. I've made a choice to leave all of the bad times in the past and to forgive, because that is the only way to move on and have a healthy life and R. It took some time, but I finally realize that I will be okay, with or without you. However, I prefer it to be with you. You've helped me to see what I'm in serious jeopardy of losing, and I don't want that. I'd like us to start over, W, and to do so as equals. I know we can do it right if we give it a second chance."

Okay, this is more or less what I was thinking -- any opinions and/or constructive criticism? It might be too long, and then again there might be more that I want to say but haven't figured out how to do so (maybe something about how the way I attempted to unfile was wrong, and that I should've talk to her about it vs. sending a request via our attys). Also, I'd like some opinions on when and where I should bring this up -- should I ask her to meet me for coffee, or to sit and talk to me when she arrives to pick up the kids, etc? What would be an opportune time for this?

DB coach also suggested mentioning to W at some point during this conversation about reconciliation (maybe if/when W declines the idea of giving our M another chance) what I appreciate, admire, and respect about her, especially in relationship to the hardships endured with me (our hard times), and how I will never forget that about her. Also, she said I should state that I will never talk ill about our M, and I will always say when talking about it that we both learned a lot about ourselves throughout the M, and it has made us better people in the grand scheme of things and better prepared to have a healthier R/M in the future.

Takes on all of this?

I'm still trying to figure out how to best approach my W with "the last stand talk" about possible reconciliation in a few weeks. I'm thinking about doing it 2 weeks from Sunday, so the 29th, but could be Aug 5th too (D day is Aug 16th). My DB coach recommended looking for those moments where there seems to be sadness or remorse for the current state of things (like there seemed to be last week when W and I briefly discussed my attempt to unfile). She said that these are moments where the door is slightly open and when an LBS can make an attempt to "strike when the iron is cold" and W is feeling somewhat vulnerable. So, if this sitch arises, I'll try to be ready to seize the moment and do "the talk" then. Otherwise, I'm wondering if at my 2 or 3 week mark I should a) wait until she comes to pick up the kids and just ask her if would sit down and talk to me for a few minutes, or b) call her and ask her if she would be able to meet me for a cup of coffee when she's free, or c) go with another option I haven't thought of.

I pasted two different posts together in the above info, so it gets a little repetitive at the end (sorry). If anyone has any thoughts I would be greatly appreciative of you time. Thanks.

GD

In re-reading the potential talk above, I think I can word it much better, but want to make sure I get feedback on what kinds of things should and shouldn't be said.

Quick update:

W called this morning and said she was asked to work some different shifts and do some different work for a few days this week. She then said she has to be to work at 5:00 tomorrow morning (implying she couldn't pick up the kids tonight after work). I said that was fine and that I would keep the kids tonight. She then said that she could pick them up tomorrow night, but would only be able to have them that night and maybe Thurs or Fri night (she said she would call and let me know which one). Again I said that is fine, and I'd talk to her then.
She said okay, gave me a long sincere "Thank you," at which I responded with an upbeat "Sure. No problem," and then we both said goodbye.

I had plans to watch a movie with some friends tonight, but decided that this change of plans was necessary and that I would have to either cancel the movie plans or find a babysitter for a few hours. I always accomodate W's schedule changes -- even on the fly -- and don't think that she abuses this (and do think that she does sincerely appreciate it). I didn't tell her I had plans, which I think was a good thing too. I think that helping her in any way I can when she asks can only be beneficial to my cause, but I'd like to know what others think about this. Just trying to be that one person she can depend on. That best friend...

I also mentioned that an old friend of mine (she knows him) is getting married and is having a bachelor party in two weeks, which consists of doing an overnight float down the Big Salmon (river near our hometown). I said that I told him it was short notice for W and that I didn't know if she could adjust her schedule in time, but I would ask. She said that she should be able to do it. I told her thanks, and that if it wouldn't work out to just let me know.

So I guess I won't see her this week, and therefore have no chance to subtley meet her WOA LL. Oh well, I guess the more time and space, the better. Gives her more time to consider things, I suppose.

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I'd like us to start over, W, and to do so as equals. I know we can do it right if we give it a second chance."

I only have a second GD, so I wanted to give you a quick take on this.

I would leave out the part quoted above. Anything that sort of gives the idea that you not only want to put the D on hold, but also maybe get back together at the same time would not end in a good way IMO.

I think just what you say in essense, is to place the idea that a D is not necessary at this time..... not that you want a full blown reconciliation.

The DB coach has good imput re;the OM, & I think believes a shorter/less said "Last Stand Talk" is a better choice.

Definitely hear from others, including DB coach before implementing.

ttfn,

Sunny

GD

You are being too nice $\:\)$

With the talk I would tame it down a touch for example;

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I know I've made a lot of mistakes over the years, and I can never take them back.

I would change this to
I know We've made a lot of mistakes over the years, and We can never take them back.

Make this a joint issue not just yours , unless you realy are prepared to take her back unconditionaly.

Also with the scheduling , dont be in too much of a hurry to change your plans to accomodate her , surely she can find a sitter if needed. She has chosen to do what she is doing , let her take some responsibility.

Just my 2c.

Dave

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You are being too nice

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Make this a joint issue not just yours , unless you realy are prepared to take her back unconditionaly.

I see your point Dave, and I do worry that I'm generally being too nice. However, that is my 180. I was constantly a critical, controlling, and angry H for the past several years. Don't get me wrong, I had my good moments too, but they were definitely overshadowed by my negative behaviors. I figure that after the D goes through, I'll begin detaching much, much more -- definitely no more financial help after that, and likely less scheduling help too. I will still be kind, upbeat, helpful, etc, but it will be to a lesser extent for sure. The only reason I'm accommodating her schedule so much right now is because I'm currently not working. I plan on getting back into work soon (this month sometime), and that will surely put a damper on my ability to meet her scheduling needs. I'm just sitting back and letting her make her bed, and when the D is final she will be sleeping in it (with OM and not me). Then she will have some opportunity to reflect on her decision a little more critically. And during that time I'll be easy going, fun-loving, Lindy dancin', free-spirited, happy, good-lookin' and bachelor-livin' GD. I'll be livin' it up and enjoying life, and she'll be wondering why this new R and new life she chose hasn't solved her unhappiness like she thought it would... $\:$$

There -- not so nice anymore, am I? $;$$ Dang that felt good to get out!

I was really the one who was at the most fault in this M, though she contributed some too. I have forgiven her, which is why I could take her back relatively easy -- provided she profess her willingness to recommitt to the M 110%. She didn't leave me for OM -- he came along several months later. I can forgive her for that, because I was the idiot who filed for D after she left.

Thanks Dave -- I agree that I should likely tone it down a bit, and maybe drop anything that would remind her of the old GD. To tell you the truth though, I'm 99.9% sure this will have zero effect on her for quite a while -- maybe a year or two down the road if I'm lucky. Still gotta plant the seed though...

GD

sunny,

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I think just what you say in essense, is to place the idea that a D is not necessary at this time..... not that you want a full blown reconciliation.

Excellent point! I must say I hadn't realized how bad of an idea combining the two could be until you pointed this out. I will definitely edit everything that suggests reconciliation. Thanks!

GD

GD,

Old GD, versus new GD. In just the few weeks of knowing your online personality, you have become an amazing person. I have seen a huge change.

I fell like I'm in much the same sitch. I'll be there, but it can only extend so far. My W if unhappy, I was controlling. But she is also really upset with herself and thinks a new life will bring happiness. Everything I see so far says no, and everything I read says it won't.

My only advice is stick with your gut and hold strong to your convictions. You have a plan, follow it through. Keeps your dignity and self respect, no matter what happens.

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You have a plan, follow it through. Keep your dignity and self respect, no matter what happens.

Thanks for the very kind words and the above advice/reinforcement, Atlas. We're all just doing our best with what we've got, aren't we...

I really have gotten to a point where I know I'll be happy without her, but I still struggle with the thought of OM giving my kids advice, helping to raise them, teaching them things, playing with them, etc, when those things are supposed to be done by me. I don't dwell on W and OM's intimacy anymore (should say "very rarely" if I'm honest), and it sure has helped having people (and myself) put that all into perspective. I truly do believe that she will come to find that OM isn't the white knight she thought he was or the silver bullet that would end her unhappiness. I don't know if she will want to come back or not after that, but the knowledge that he alone can't make her happy has given me back some dignity and helped to quell my sense of rejection.

GD

GD
Your on on better man than most
Keep it up
Cva

My crackberry has on on glitch!

GD

I see your point , I forgot that she did not take up with OM until after you seperated. That makes your plan a lot more sense now.

Dave

GD,

I know the dad thing hurts, I feel your pain. You will have opportunities. Don't worry they know who there dad is and will always love him. Your an incrediable person and have shown that you feel good about you and it shows.

GD,

You sound like you r in a really good place right now. Keep up the PMA!! And thanks for checking up on me((((hugs)))). I understand all too well about them seeing that their OW/OM will not make them anymore happier until they realize only YOURSELF can do that & ofcoarse the Lord.
I think (maybe wrong) but thats why my h made the"i'm miserable comment).

GD...just wanted to say thanks for showing interest in my story...I can totally relate to your story...my parents both passed away, and that put soo much stress on the H, trying to be an emotional support to me...I don't think he knew how/what/when I needed...and according to my DB coach that help to lead my part in the demise of our M. Stay strong...keep up the good work and PMA!!!

Thanks for stopping by with support everyone -- you are all great too and your thoughts very much appreciated!

CVA,

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Your a better man than most.

I don't know about any of that (or where you get it), but thanks a bunch anyway! It certainly boosted my PMA. You're doing a fantastic job, too, and heed wise Sandi's advice -- you're lucky to have her undivided attn right now!

Dave,

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I see your point , I forgot that she did not take up with OM until after you seperated. That makes your plan a lot more sense now.

I thought that might help. She does have her faults in the M, no question, but I can't put those on the table until she reinvests in the M 100%. Only then do I believe it will be safe and important to play the "we" and "us" card.

Atlas,

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I know the dad thing hurts, I feel your pain. You will have opportunities. Don't worry they know who there dad is and will always love him. Your an incrediable person and have shown that you feel good about you and it shows.

Thanks Atlas -- the dad thing certainly does hurt (immensely). Anyone ever heard the Kenny Rogers song "I don't call him daddy?" I used to listen to it as a kid and now have it on my IPod -- it really resonates with me right now.

Thanks again for the kind words too -- you have also done some incredible things given what W has thrown your way. I'll catch up on your post later today/tonight, but it looks like Nomo is helping right now, so you're in good hands!

Chicki,

Quote:

You sound like you r in a really good place right now. Keep up the PMA!! And thanks for checking up on me((((hugs)))). I understand all too well about them seeing that their OW/OM will not make them anymore happier until they realize only YOURSELF can do that

Thanks for stopping by and for your support -- I'm glad to see you're doing okay! I know that W will see that her happiness was/is shortlived, and maybe even the fact that we might well have saved our M if she wouldn't have given up on the possibility that I could change. Hindsight will come into play, I have no doubt!

christarn,

Welcome to my fine and pleasant misery! It sure is tough losing one's parents isn't it? I don't know how old you were, but I was 21 and an only child when I lost my mom (never grew up with dad), and was 26 when my last known living relative passed away (aside from my dad). I expected my W to know how and when to comfort me and help me get through it, but now realize that she didn't have the tools or the understanding to do so. Unfortunately I made her pay for that emotionally, and became a stressed out and societally-influenced person as a result. I only had myself as a guide, and I made some serious errors in judgement. Thank goodness I finally sought out some counseling and found this site -- don't know where I'd be if I hadn't...

Thanks again everyone!

GD

GD,

Your in a great spot and helping a lot with others. Keep the changes going man!

GD...My mom fought a treamendous battle with cancer for 10 years, she finally past when I was 21..I dealt with that Ok, started nursing school half way thru that my dad was diagnosed with cancer...I watched him suffer for about a year when he had had enough and finally said no more...he watched me graduate from school and about 6 months later past away....I still battle the deamons of not having parents to turn to in times of turmoil...such as this crazy mess...i'm sure you totally understand that! My H didn't understand that...he turned to his parents for everything, even jobs when he was laid off, when he was in trouble with the law, he turned to them to bail him out...so he just didn't get the fact that having nobody to turn to his just a huge struggle....good for you for counseling!! $\:\)$ It's good to talk with someone/others...who get this stuff, cause I sure don't....keep your chin up...."God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things that I can, and wisdom to know the difference"...that's been my life line lately!! I'll say one, two or ten for you too!!

Thanks Atlas and christarn!

Update,

Last night went to my Lindy Hop night and there were only 4 leads and about 20 follows!!! Needless to say, I was a little busy! I felt so bad for all the girls, so I just danced every dance and just kept asking different girls so they would all at least get in a couple dances. I sweated like a pig, but my buddy Old Spice High Endurance was there for me! This is why I couldn't stay awake last night to read or post on threads (I think I got about 2 posts in total!). Before I went dancing though I was at a friends house for a steak and shrimp dinner and movie. W called while I was there and asked me about a recent scheduling change we made due to her work. I told her it was her call because she was the one who had lost days with the kids, and to just call me back when she knows what she wants to do.

Today went and got an oil change and replaced a fuse that had caused my truck's DVD players to quit working (the kids were stoked!). Also worked in the yard -- cleaned out all of the weeds in my flower and shrubs beds and have been spreading a fresh layer of bark over it all. Should be done with that tomorrow. The kids helped me by using their toy shovels, and when they weren't "helping" they were playing with the water hose that I had turned on for them. Occasionally they ambushed me with it too -- BRRRRRRRR!

W called a few hours ago about the schedule, and I accommodated. Then I threw out the back to back weekend trips to Seattle and Orlando and asked if she would be able to watch the kids. She said that it would be fine and she could do it, and I sensed a slight bit of curiosity mixed with a hint of irritation. I'm trying not to read into it, but come on: I just went to Hawaii for a week, now off to Seattle for a nonstop Lindy Hop dancing weekend followed by a trip to Orlando (which I also pawned off as being a Lindy Hop weekend too -- couldn't say it was a DB event obviously!). So I'm traveling all over and enjoying life while W sits around the house W smelly OM. It was kind of funny, but when I mentioned the trip to Orlando and said it was another "Lindy thing," she responded in a tiny bit of an irritable tone with "what Wendy thing?". It was all I could do to not chuckle when she said it, so I kept my composure and just said, "No no. Lindy thing. You know, my Lindy Hop dancing." She just responded with "Oh." Gotta say, it was kind of humorous and slightly revealing as to what she might've been thinking. I'd love to see the expression on her face if she could read still's recent post on Nomo's thread about the DB event girl's slumber party now!

I still don't think she'll put off the D when we have the talk, but I do think she'll still be curious from time to time (and maybe even jealous) about what I'm up to and with whom. I read somewhere (and was told in one of my IC sesh's several months ago) that it doesn't matter if the WAS has moved on and has no regrets about it -- when they hear about and/or see their ex with someone else for the first time, they become upset, angry, etc, about it.

Oh, during the convo with W today, I also asked her about work, how it was going, how she's been feeling, etc. Seemed to go pretty well, and I was also the one to change the subject back to wrapping things up and saying goodbye. All in all, not a bad convo. W was surprisingly accommodating for the multiple weekends sitch, and I'm happy about the ability to compromise and be friendly with one another. It's still not where I'd like it to be, but it's better than what it was.

GD

GD,

Just keep dancin' you crazy fool. I've got two left feet, and I am sick and tired of being in weddings and not able to really dance when I should, so maybe that will be something I work on.

Love the time with the kids, they always know exactly what to do with that hose, it genetic I swear.

Nice work on being there for the W and her schedule change. HAVE FUN WITH THAT WENDY THING!!! haha. Enjoy your trips.

glad you fun dancing...sounds like a blast $\:\)$ keep on dancing crazy man!!

GD,

On the dancing, wanted to let you know that when I saw your screen name, I started thinking about taking dance lessons. Going tomorrow for the first one. Sounded like you had so much fun, what the hell. Give it a shot. Something I had always wanted to try.

And congrats on getting your R with the W to a point where it's mostly civil. I haven't read all of your story, but that's good progress and just wanted to congratulate you. You've got more patience and forebearance than i have.

BD

Yeah, dancin' was completely out of my comfort zone 3 months ago. Now after taking as manHy lessons as possible and going to as many dance nights as possible, I'm totally comfortable with it -- Lindy Hop, that is! In fact, it is my new fav GAL activity! Salsa is next on my list, as is hip hop (though at 28 I'm kind of embarrassed to take hip hop lessons -- I'm not old by any means, but kind of feel too old for that!).

BD -- what kind of dance lessons are you taking?

Yep, despite W practically waving her new BF in my face in the beginning of their R a few months ago, the new GD (you know, the one with grace, respect, and restraint) let it roll off my back and it has made all (maybe most, anyway) of the difference in where my communication is with my W right now, and has also given me a greater sense of self and self respect. I believe it has allowed me to grow into a better person. And, no matter what happens with my M with W, my ability to do this will have forever garnered her respect, which is likely new found in a major way (and I'm definitely proud of that!).

GD (that crazy, dancin' fool!)

You go GD!

Taking out the charm now seems to be a strong point for you, & one that your W, Along w/ many others, is sure to notice.

It's enjoyable to watch ya grow & see how it effects your entire sense of self.

You also have the wit thing going pretty good, which is always an attracting quality.

Best,

Sunny

If Mopo can wear a leather bracelet, & I can shop in the Brass Plum section(juniors) @ Nordstrom's, you can take any kind of dancing you like.

Oh, cupcake!

You really know how to make a PMA blossom!

I still don't know where you see the charm and wit coming out(maybe on occasion $;\)$ ), but if you're serving it I'll gobble it right up and ask for seconds! And to be honest, I don't think I am able to muster ANY charm and wit around W yet. I'm just too self-conscious to be that comfortable yet. I'm nice -- that's all I've got right now!

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It's enjoyable to watch ya grow & see how it effects your entire sense of self.

If it wasn't for DBing and the many people here (including yourself) both giving advice and providing insight through their own experiences, it's hard to say if I'd be anywhere good emotionally. What a great place this site has been! I see much growth in so many us -- it really is awesome to watch, isn't it!

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If Mopo can wear a leather bracelet, & I can shop in the Brass Plum section(juniors) @ Nordstrom's, you can take any kind of dancing you like.

I suppose -- I just feel like if/when I do take hip hop lessons, I'll be twice as old as everyone else! How embarrassing...

And btw, why aren't you coming to Orlando?! That's just not right (you not being included in the girl's slumber party pillow fights, that is $;\)$ ).

GD

GD

Just checking in with your sitch! A WAW is here to toss my nickel's worth into the bin.

I think at this point with the D coming up, you are almost at the "nothing to lose" stage of the game. I read your pitch for the W and I think you are on the right track. Apologizing for the filing, telling her you regret doing that and taking responsibility for your part of the breakdown in the M is great. Like others have stated I would not press for reconciliation nor would I take all the blame for your M�s trouble. Make the aim to make her think about postponing the D. No mention of OM or you two getting back together. Just a heartfelt talk that this is not what you really want right now and that you have made many changes and still see a chance in spite of the past and see where it gets you. You never know, maybe she doesn�t want to push through with the D either. D is a very big step but from all of our experienced DB�ing friends on here we know this isn�t the nail in the coffin. It�s just another obstacle to overcome.

GD you have lots going for you and sounds like your GAL plan has really got your W thinking about you! Esp. all of these weekends away & trips! Wowzer! I bet she is wondering if there is a little lindy-hopping lady out there that might have caught your eye! Something she may have to think about a lot more if the D goes through�nothing stopping you then�and good dance partners are a hot commodity J

PS: Bob Weir was decent last week. Didn�t play my favorites but still a good show.

Thanks waw -- your input is always appreciated and highly valued here!

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I think at this point with the D coming up, you are almost at the "nothing to lose" stage of the game.

I agree with that -- I know I said in any earlier post that I was afraid that this "last stand talk" would just set me back in regard to all of the hard earned changes I've made. However, I realize that even if it did, it is worth taking the chance. W does need to know my heart one last time before this thing goes through. I also like all of your suggestions on where to go with the talk, and will work on figuring out how to revise it with these suggestions in place.

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You never know, maybe she doesn�t want to push through with the D either.

I hear you, waw, but how could she not? She denied the unfiling request, and although I feel like it could've been simply because I didn't talk with her about it but instead did it via our attys, she nonetheless didn't talk to me about it. Also, she has now been living with OM at his house, and has told the kids that OMs house is now her house too. She's making more steps toward being serious with OM, and though I sometimes wonder if this is just because she (and maybe he) is struggling financially, it still makes me wonder if there really is any hope to bust this D in time. Also, I don't think W would be willing to put the D on hold because such a move would likely interfere with her R with OM. Your thoughts on the above?

Quote:

D is a very big step but from all of our experienced DB�ing friends on here we know this isn�t the nail in the coffin. It�s just another obstacle to overcome.

That's how I see it too, and I believe that the window is open all the way until she remarries. During our conversation where she stated she was ready call it quits (this was after we had already separated) she even said that, "Who knows, we could be back together four or five years down the road. My boss just remarried her ex after being D'd for five years." That statement has always stuck in my head, though it could've just been something to make me feel a little better and nothing more. Regardless, I know that we might just need a clean slate with no pressure or expectations. Of course, for this to happen she would have to end her R with OM, so it's hard to say if the opportunity at reconciliation will ever come about.

Quote:

GD you have lots going for you and sounds like your GAL plan has really got your W thinking about you! Esp. all of these weekends away & trips! Wowzer! I bet she is wondering if there is a little lindy-hopping lady out there that might have caught your eye!

Thanks for the optimism! It did seem kind of obvious from my last convo with her yesterday that she was leaning in this direction. I mean, the whole slightly irritable comment "What Wendy thing?" when I told her I was doing another "Lindy thing" was kind of telling. I don't know, I'm really trying not to read into it too much, but also can't help but wonder if the seeds of doubt are actually beginning to sprout in W's mind.

Thanks for your nickel's worth, waw! It's always great to get perspective from the other side of the fence!

GD

Oh, and bummer about Bob not playing your favs, but it is the vibe and atmospher that they all create that makes the show so great IMO!

Talk with you later!

GD,
don't ever think it is over until like you said that she remarries.

My MIL and FIL were divorced for a year when my H was about 9 and they got back together and have been together since.

Geez, wonder if my H is trying to follow in his parents footprints.

Keep your chin up dancin man....if you chat with her...don't push, just give her your side of the story, and how you have been working on changing yourself. Good luck.... $\:\)$

Thanks Kelley and christarn!

Kelley,

Thanks for the example -- I never get tired of hearing those kinds of success stories! I'll try to stop by your thread sometime soon and check up on you and how you're doing.

christarn,

I would love to mention something about my working on changing myself, but I'm not sure how best to do this. It is a DB principle to show them change and not tell them, so I'm curious as to how I can slip this in and have it be genuinely recognized and understood.

Thanks again ladies!

GD

GD

Its great to hear how well you are doing. Remember ( stuck record here ) that this stuff may not have any immediate effect, but she sure will be noticing.
I realy do think you have the right attitude and your "lindy Hop" dancing is awesome for your PMA. I actualy had to google search lindy hop to see what you were up to.
Keep the changes going and the expectations low.

Dave

GD,

I saw on Nomo's thread that you are landing in Orlando at 4:45. My plane gets in at 4:50. So, I guess I will just look for the dude that is dancing all over the airport and know that it is you. $\:\)$

GD,
I'm with Dave. A google of Lindy Hop is in my future.

You said somewhere earlier here that "you've only managed to be nice" to your W. Now, while I'm not going to be taken in by your wiles and charm, you do seem like you've got a bit more wit than you're giving yourself credit for. I've skimmed through a number of your threads and it's been there from the beginning.

Show your W what you're showing this board.

First dance lesson was last night at Arthur Murray. Individual lesson, so went over the waltz, fox trot, and a tiny bit of Swing. My teacher, a very attractive young lady -- talk about a good thing for the PMA -- was pleasant and I had a good time. Going to go for the next 3 months and see where i am from there. Going to learn the basics of a bunch of things -- waltz, swing, little latin dancing. Looking forward to it. I'll probably journal on my day yesterday on my thread later.

BD

Thanks for stopping by people!

Dave,

Quote:

Remember ( stuck record here ) that this stuff may not have any immediate effect, but she sure will be noticing.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "this stuff," but I'm assuming it is the traveling, dancing, and upbeat attitude (maybe even the physical changes too). I agree with you -- the effect may take some time, but she will be noticing as time goes on. I still think she sees my changes as short term and only here to try and win her back. I think the real test for me in her mind is whether or not I keep the changes going post-D. And, when I do, I think that is when she might just begin doubting her decision... Oh, and what did you think of the lindy hop info/pics you googled? Pretty sweet stuff, eh!

When I was at my W's friend's house (the girl engaged to my good friend) the other night for dinner, I continued to throw out the "charm" (as sunny would put it) -- you know, all part of my Master Plan . Friend's fiance just broke a bone in her hand the day before, so I came in the kitchen and offered to help and she gladly accepted. I peeled the shrimp, cut up the potatoes, minced some garlic, sliced the onions, etc, and did so quickly and efficiently (I used to do occasional prep work at a restaurant years ago). She was like, "Damn! You're hired!" I responded with "Yeah but work this good comes at a high price. I hope you pay well!" We all laughed, and the pleasantries continued throughout the night. Continuing to plant positive seeds where I can. Just thought I'd throw that bit of info in -- forgot to on my previous post about it.

Kat,

Quote:

I guess I will just look for the dude that is dancing all over the airport and know that it is you.

Hey my teacher friend! That's great that we're all arriving at roughly the same time (where are you flying in from?)! Yeah, I'll be the one swingin' girls left and right throughout the terminal while simultaneously throwin' out my jazz hands (just got a hilarious visual)! Are you sure you want to be seen with that

? What is your plan for transportation when you get there? Can't wait to swap some classroom horror stories with you!

H,

Quote:

Now, while I'm not going to be taken in by your wiles and charm,

LOL! Oh, come on H -- try as you might, you know that you can't resist! $\:\)$ Thanks for the vote of confidence btw -- don't know how to show W though. I think I'm focusing too hard on NOT being what I was instead of simply showing her who I am now. Wow. That was just a huge revelation! Making note to self...

How'd you like your first dance lesson? Lots of getting used to I'm sure (it took me three lessons to get the basic lindy steps down -- caution: slow learner here). You're learning lots of different dances -- you're gonna be the man if you stick with it! What kind(s) of swing will you be learning? East Coast, West Coast, Lindy Hop? It's definitely nice to have a cute instructor too -- makes you work a little harder! For my performance team practice tonight we begin shifting our focus from Lindy to some Latin dancing (not sure which kind though).
I'm excited, but a little bummed too. Oh well, I'll still have my Lindy Hop Monday night dances for the Lindy!

Talk with you all later! You guys are so rad!

GD

GD --

Quote:

simultaneously throwin' out my jazz hands (just got a hilarious visual)!

NOT the dreaded....jazz hands!!

I just snorted Diet Dr. Pepper up my nose....oh, the burning!!!

Y'all are going to have such fun!

L

Jazz hands! Hilarious.

Well, now I know I will be able to find you for sure. $\:\)$

GD - I have been meaning to get on your thread for days, but I have wanted to find a block of time where I could concentrate on your letter to W. With the kids this week and last (plus IC and JC, mega-journaling entries, exercise, etc., etc., etc.), I have been working hard. Pretty exhausted really. But I wanted you to know I haven't forgotten, and I will be back before too much longer.

Nomo $\:\)$

Quote:

Quote:
simultaneously throwin' out my jazz hands (just got a hilarious visual)!
NOT the dreaded....jazz hands!!

I've not only never seen Desperate Houseswives, I also don't know what jazz hands are

Been waiting for someone to say something that gives me a hint & still nothing.....

Sunny

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jazz_hands
I looked for a quick video, but couldn't find one.

BD

Thanks, Nomo. And don't stress -- I knew you were busy, and thought it was good for you to take a break (I mean, I'm in your 5 -- I know you'll get back to me! $;\)$ . Plus, when we get together here in a few weeks (though I know it will be post-"last stand talk"), we will have plenty of time to kick stuff around. Did you see that you, Kat, and I are all arriving at roughly the same time? I keep getting this hilarious visual (I'm always getting these, it seems) of us all meeting at the same time, putting our DBing rings together and one of us saying something cheesy like, "DBers unite! Quickly DB friends -- to still's abode!" followed by us suddenly dashing off.

Anyone else getting that visual now, or am I the only one cheesy enough?

Quote:

I've not only never seen Desperate Houseswives, I also don't know what jazz hands are

Oh, sunny...how sheltered you are $\:\($ (jk). Have you ever seen Napoleon Dynamite? I think there is a good example of them there. Oh, and for the record, that movie DOES NOT reflect what Idaho is like!

GD

GD you are too funny with the ND reference!

Good luck on your trip fellow DB'ers!

Originally Posted By: Gone Dancin'

I mean, I'm in your 5 -- I know you'll get back to me! $;\)$ .

Definitely true!

Originally Posted By: Gone Dancin'

Plus, when we get together here in a few weeks (though I know it will be post-"last stand talk"), we will have plenty of time to kick stuff around.

Well, I definitely want to discuss your last-stand talk before then. And as for Orlando, we can dicuss our sitches for sure, but ;et's try to escape and just have some fun!

[

Originally Posted By: Gone Dancin'

Did you see that you, Kat, and I are all arriving at roughly the same time?

Yes! I can't remember who is first, but that's cool. I got a room at the Marriott. I am totally flexible on sharing a room, or you ca get your own. Think it's about 99/night for solo. We could also get one of those two-room suites (but I think it has a pull out couch for the second bed. Not sure if CVA is coming too. CVA?

Originally Posted By: Gone Dancin'

I keep getting this hilarious visual (I'm always getting these, it seems) of us all meeting at the same time, putting our DBing rings together and one of us saying something cheesy like, "DBers unite! Quickly DB friends -- to still's abode!" followed by us suddenly dashing off.

Uh, no. I can't say that's a visual I got (until now, I guess). Did I miss the ring ceremony? I never got a DB ring.

Later,
Nomo

Nomo,

Quote:

Well, I definitely want to discuss your last-stand talk before then.

I know. Wouldn't do much good to have your insight after the fact! I'm thinking about doing it next weekend (Sunday the 29th). I've got another DB coaching sesh next Wed to help me prep, so maybe after I post that info we can kick around what you think about it. I'm getting a little nervous just thinking about it

.

Quote:

And as for Orlando, we can dicuss our sitches for sure, but ;et's try to escape and just have some fun!

No question!

I get in at 4:45, Kat at 4:50, and you at 5:25. Oh, and I'll have your DB ring ready for you! $;\)$ . I'm glad that you got my visual (hope it painted a silly picture in your mind too!). I'm an English major, so I'm always getting quirky, creative pictures of scenarios in my head. You can't say you haven't noticed this by now!

I'll go ahead and grab my own room $\:\($ . It would be nice to try and get one close to yours, but doubt that is possible. Is there more than one Marriot? If so, which one did you make a reservation at?

Quote:

us all meeting at the same time, putting our DBing rings together and one of us saying something cheesy like, "DBers unite! Quickly DB friends -- to still's abode!" followed by us suddenly dashing off.

Ummmmm, no. Let's not do that. Ever.

Quote:

Ummmmm, no. Let's not do that. Ever.

$\:\($

I'm sorry, GD! I didn't mean to make you sad. I was just kidding.

If you will bring the rings, we can do a full re-enactment of the scene you described. OK? $\:\)$

Hey Dancin'

Thank you for responding to my thread. I've read your sitch and I am hoping for the best for you. You are doing an incredible and enviable job db'ing. I really don't know how you all keep your cool throughout the song and dance.

I'll keep checking in with you...so are you hoping to win W back post-D? That wasn't in your summary so I'm curious about your game plan after August.

Quote:

If you will bring the rings, we can do a full re-enactment of the scene you described. OK?

$\:D$ !

GS -- Thanks for stopping by!

Quote:

so are you hoping to win W back post-D? That wasn't in your summary so I'm curious about your game plan after August.

Yes, that is where I'm at. My efforts end if/when W remarries (at least that's when the line is drawn at the moment), but I suppose that would change if I found someone else that I ended up falling in love with. Difficult to see that happening from where I'm at now, but one never knows.

I haven't made a game plan for post-D yet. I'm waiting for the D to actually go through before I begin really focusing on that. However, I figure that I will pull back more at that point and not help her financially unless it directly relates to the kids. That's all I'm sure of at this point. I've gone pretty dark already for a while now, but stay upbeat, friendly, and helpful whenever she calls or comes to get the kids. It is likely that I will still do these things, but may be less helpful regarding some things. I'm going to meet with my DB coach post-D to discuss/develop a game plan then.

How are you doing? I'll be checking back in with you sometime soon.

GD

GD,

If you get a chance can u look at my new thread? Give me some insight please?

C,

Okay, I'm going to be off the BB pretty much all day (as I was yesterday). I'm trying to get a bunch of things done around the house, play with the kids some more, etc, before W picks them up this evening.

I took D3 to get a mini-manicure and full pedicure yesterday (first one ever) and she was thrilled! She thought it was the coolest thing ever, and already wants to go back (of course!). She is such a girly girl, and doing this just made her day. I think I'm going to get one of those kid nail dryers and a few different nail polishs so we can do it at home once and a while. I had as much fun watching her get them done as she had doing it!

Later tonight or tomorrow, I'm gonna hammer out a second rough draft of "the last stand talk" for DBer review. The talk will be a week away from today (7/28). Once it's posted, any opinions will be greatly appreciated.

Enjoy your Sundays everyone!

GD

I don't really have the motivation/ambition to journal right now, let alone turn out a second rough draft at the moment. Just got back from a movie and am going for a bike ride for a while -- likely won't journal until tomorrow. Will say that W asked me to drop the kids off at her "new" place (OM's) for the first time. Got a pretty NMA right now and am just really discouraged. It's hard sticking with the plan to talk with W next week about postponing the D, but I know that I've got to. Don't want to because I don't really see anything good coming from it, and if it does come I don't believe it'll come for a very long time. I'm starting to not want to help W in the settlement (mediation agreement still not signed) simply because I'm possibly setting her AND OM/OM's kids up to live well, vs just her and our kids. I know that deep down it is selfish and and controlling to pull back because of this, but I am so devastated by the reality of this whole thing. I know that I must continue on because my line isn't drawn here. I will not give up -- I just need some perspective right now.

Kind of turned into more than I intended, but I will go into greater detail about everything tomorrow. Thanks for reading my brief vent.

Man this stuff sucks sometimes.

GD,

I so hear you. Tough day myself today. All I can say is it will pass, eventually. Until it does, make no decisions and avoid\minimize contact with W.

Hang in there buddy,
Nomo

FROM STILLME on Sunny's computer:

I'm sorry, GD. It DOES s*ck. But you know what? I admire you for not giving up, even in the face of your nma, hurt, discouragement and, o/c, your admitted (and certainly understandable!) thoughts to be selfish & controlling regarding the settlement w/W. {{{Gone Dancin'}}} It is truly mind-boggling the things WAS's ask/demand/expect from the LBS. Anyone but a good DB'r would respond by doing something that would involve the cops, or at the very least, some colorful adjectives and impossible feats of bodily acrobatics.

Get your perspective, do some exercise, try to sleep in a bit . . . and vent & rage & journal as you feel the need, whenever you need. Use those adjectives. Be creative. We know you can do it. DBers Unite!!
j.

GD

That sucks , I have nothing to add that ther other have not said , only that am thinking of you and we all have these times.

Remember to try and focus on yourself and what you can do for you and your kids. You will drain your PMA if you think too much about your W.

Tough sitch though .

Dave

GD

I have been thinking about your sitch quite a bit. I know you have posted previously about being overly generous to your W in the settelment. I had a lot of respect for you for doing that. You really are a great guy, not many would be that way. Even my own H has pretty much decided since I am the one leaving he is going to make sure he keeps anything I really want (my dog for example) to be spiteful.

Now reading your insights about this setting her up to be in a good place with the OM...I starting to think you should re-think just how generous you are in this case. I do not think you are being spiteful or controlling! The reality is that you will helping her & whoever she is with whether it be this OM or another OM or the milkman. You get my point. You can always dote on her and the children at will in the future, then you have control over your money. Doesn't mean you should give her more than she is entitled to in the D settlement. Thats a permanent solution and you will never be able to recoup those funds once they are hers. I don't know...I hate the idea of you making her life easier to be with the OM.

I am sorry if that sounds harsh, I just think you are right to question this decision before its too late.

Hugs, hope you find your answers to this dilemma soon.

GD,

You've been tremendously strong throughout this whole ordeal, keep it up. On a practical level, you know W and OM are living together, dropping the D there was going to happen. That said, I can only imagine what that would feel like for the first time and you deserve a bit of a funk now and again.

One question on the settlement, I can't remember the specifics, but, if the OM weren't in the picture, would you consider the terms overly generous? I mean, without OM, would you still feel uneasy about the terms? If so, maybe you are being too generous. Only you can answer that one.

Hang in there.

BD

(((GD)))

The funk seems to be spreading around here, but it is normal, and we will all pull through it. I am sure the OM sitch is pulling you down and I am so sorry about that.

I hope you are feeling better today.

GD...stay strong...you can do this....PMA!!! We are all here for you!! I am heading to IC...hope she can help me out a bit!! Rember you have to stay strong for your little ones...they are what count!!(HUGS)

Thanks Nomo, still, Dave, waw, H, Kat, christarn -- I really appreciate the support.

I'm still in the funk and just struggling as D day nears. Yesterday put the reality of the sitch back on the table for me, and reminded me of what I'm really up against.

W called yesterday around noon and left a message, but I didn't get it until almost 2:00. In it she asked when I wanted her to pick up the kids (or when she could pick up the kids), and said to call her back and let her know. Usually she works on Sunday, so I was assuming it would be after work. I called her back at that point, got her vm, and told her that I thought she was working, but if not then she can pick them up when they're done napping, and to call me back and let me know what's going on.

She called back about a half an hour later and said she wasn't working and could get the kids anytime. Then, she asked if I would be able to drop them off vs her come get them. I've never once been asked to drop them off at her place (I think she didn't want me to know where she lived) in the 8 months we've been separated. I knew from the kids that she is now living with OM, and was curious as to where the drop would be. Keep in mind I had a decent tone and attitude, but it wasn't real upbeat.

Me: Okay, that's fine.
W: If you don't want to I can come pick them up.
Me: No, it's okay. I just talked to K & T (my friend and his fiance -- W's friend) and we were going to see a movie after you got the kids, so I've gotta come that way anyway.
W: Oh.
Me: So where do you want me to drop them off?
W: Well, I moved. (pause) Don't know if you knew that or not.
Me: (Unphased) Yeah, the kids kind of told me.
W: Yeah, I figured they did.
Me: So where am I bringing them?
W: (W proceeds to tell me the street and house #). It's not too far away from my old apt (I new her old complex, but not her building or #).
Me: Okay, I've seen that street before -- it won't be a problem to find the place.
W: Okay.
Me: So I'll wait until they're done napping, then get them ready and head out. It'll probably be around 4:00 or so. Is that okay?
W: Yeah, that's fine.
Me: Okay, I'll call you before we leave.
W: Okay.
Me: Bye
W: Bye

There was some other talk early on about what days she could have them this week and some more talk about the first two weekends in Aug I need free to go to Seattle and Orlando. She got a little snappy at one point, but I just played cool and let it roll of my back and the convo got right back on track.

So the kids wake up a little later and we play for a bit, then I get cleaned up and nicely dressed for going out with the friends (and of course for W to see) after dropping off the kids. The kids want to wear some dress up costumes to W's house, so I let them (this is a 180 because before I would've made them put on some nice clothes before going ANYWHERE). W has lots of extra clothes right now so that wasn't a problem.

On the way to the house S5 says, "Daddy, if Mommy and [OM] get married, then [OM's son] and I will be brothers." That obviously hurt to hear, think about, etc, and I just couldn't resist so I said, "Yup. Who told you that?" Hoping and praying that he's not going to say Mommy or OM, he says, "[OM's son] did." WHEW! Dodged that bullet! Still, pretty interesting thing to hear, even if it did come from a 7 yr old. I'm wondering where he heard it or why he thought about it...

We pull up to the house, and my son says, "That's not it, Daddy!" I'm confused because it is the number W told me (twice), but I'm also skeptical because it is a duplex (and a pretty small one) and not a house. I wait for about 15 seconds to see if W steps out, but she doesn't so I get out and go to the door and knock. W opens it and I said in an upbeat tone, "Oh, okay! Wasn't sure if this was the right place. S5 kept telling me it wasn't because it doesn't have 2 doors (i.e. duplex)." W says, "Oh, that's because we always come in through the back (there's an alley where they park apparently)." So I get D3 out while W gets S5 out. I then walk back around the truck and W says, "That's it? No bags?" I say, "No, there's stuff. It's just in the front seat here," as I open the door and grab everything. I tell her what is in the bags and whatnot, and I ask her about the week's schedule again. We discuss it briefly, then I ask the kids for hugs and kisses. I joke with them for a second and then tell them to be good for Momma. W and I then say goodbye, I walk back to my truck and leave.

From the moment she came to the door after I first knocked to the moment she went back in side, W barely looked me in the eye. This was particularly noticeable when we were talking about the week's schedule. Both when she listened and talked, W kept her eyes down and averted the entire time. It was very odd. She has struggled to look me in the eye throughout the separation, but I think this was the worst I've experienced. I'm sure it is the fact that she's feeling guilty, but I'm not sure where the guilt is stemming from at this point. Is she still guilty that she left me and has broken up the family? Is it because it's now out in the open that she's moved in with OM? Does it have to do with the settlement piece (the fact that she's getting so much $ to buy a new house for herself originally, but that it now might include OM and his kids too)? Heck, maybe it's all of it. I don't know, I'm just trying to figure out why she has so much guilt still if this is something she wants and is choosing to do? What does the guilt say about where her heart is? If I'm not doing/saying things to make her feel guilty, then why does she feel that way?

I just wish I knew her heart and what she is really feeling! I guess I might find out the answer to at least some of this during the "last stand talk" this coming Sunday, but even then I'm not sure if it will be much. I'd like to know how invested she really is in this new R with OM. Part of me says she moved in with him because life is really difficult right now financially for her to be on her own. This could just be something that is transitional until the D is final and the house is sold so she can get her own place. I really want to know the answer to this (and think I need to know) so I can decide on whether or not to give her the 50/50 split on the house. If she tells me that her and OM are going to live together after she gets the new place, I might tell her that that wasn't part of the previous discussion in mediation, and that I don't feel obligated to give her so much $ and have it go to supporting people that I didn't intend it to. I feel like telling her that giving her the money to buy a place of her own for her and the kids is one thing, but giving her the money to buy a place for her, our kids, AND OM and his kids is quite another. I know her argument would likely be, "So you don't think I'm entitled to that money if I'm with someone else? What's the difference if I'm with someone now or later down the road?" I think there's some validity in that line of thinking, which is what causes me to struggle with the idea of NOT giving her the money. I just wish I knew if she truly sees herself being with OM for the long haul. I'm just so confused on what to do right now.

Anyway, just to round off the journaling for yesterday, I then went from W's place to our mutual friends' house. We hung out and BS'd for a while, waiting until it was time to go to the movie (which was Transformers btw, and was totally AWESOME!). Again, I've maintained a position of being upbeat around W's friend and not mentioning W at all. However, at one point, friend's fiance and I were alone in the living room and she asked, "So, W asked you to drop the kids off at her place? That's kind of...(trailing off, but hinting that she felt this was in poor taste)." I just jumped in like it was no big deal and said, "Yeah, it wasn't a problem. I figured I was coming down this way anyway." She then added, "Oh, I guess she always comes out to your place too (implying that it is probably only fair that I do the driving and dropping off once in a while)." That was as far as that convo went, but it seemed like she was wanting to get a read on my feelings about this. I just played it cool and acted like I'm perfectly comfortable with the situation as it stands -- trying not to tip my hand whatsoever that I'm dwelling on it even a little bit. We then went to the movie and parted separate ways.

Okay, I'm gonna stop there and collect some more thoughts, and maybe post a recap of where the mediation agreement stands and how it got there (for those who either aren't familiar with my whole sitch or who have maybe forgotten).

GD

GD

You must be a saint or something!

You didn't know where you W was living with your small children?! This is beyond mind blowing. I am wondering what kind of person keeps this a secret from the other parent? This is soo wrong. I am so happy for you that you at least have the address, have seen the place etc. I hope this puts your mind at ease. Also, your W never told you she moved?

Please, please, look out for yourself in the mediation! I know you love your W and want to reconcile but it doesn't sound like she is playing fair.

Thanks waw,

Quote:

You didn't know where you W was living with your small children?!

I knew where her apt complex was (it was close to her work), but didn't know the specific building or apt #, and even when I got it for D purposes (paperwork and such), I never went there and tried to figure out exactly where it was. I think my backing off and not inquiring or pushing this was a 180 for me, because of how controlling I had been in the past. I figured when she was ready, she would tell me or have me bring the kids by, etc. As far as her moving in with OM, I think it has only been about 3 weeks or so since she's really been staying there every night. Her apt lease is at the expiration period, so I think the transition has been recent. I know that the OM is a nice guy and a treats my kids well (I hear about these kinds of things from the kids, as they consistently volunteer info along these lines), so I haven't really been concerned about that. I was surprised at the size of their place (from the outside, at least), and am not sure how many bedrooms it has or where the kids are sleeping. I think I'm going to ask about that at some point during the talk next week.

Quote:

Please, please, look out for yourself in the mediation! I know you love your W and want to reconcile but it doesn't sound like she is playing fair.

Could you elaborate on this a little?

Given the recent events, I know I've got A LOT to kick around and think about regarding the mediation. I think I'm going to have to have the talk first and see what W's feelings are before I make any decisions on the mediation agreement though.

GD

GD,

I like the talk prior to the mediation. Might stop it, but at the least you will know where you stand. Maybe someone else can give a take on why to wait until after, but it seems pretty logical to try it first. I just think you have more pro's then con's. But be careful to not let it heat up the fire so that mediation becomes hell.

GD

It just sounds like she is taking advantage of you and manipulating you by not telling you where she was living and also by moving in with the OM. These are things that directly effect the well being of your children, nothing to do with the M or your R with her. This is not fair behavior. Not only should you have had all of this info upfront, you should have been invited over to check both places out before she moved!

Don't let the new & improved GD pay for past mistakes, thats all. Look out for you & the kids first. W is an adult, can and should be made to fend for herself...do not make it easy for her move on with your $$$ and this new guy. I am not saying not to be fair to her but you can always give what you feel is appropriate down the road if its above & beyond what she is entitled to.

Atlas,

Mediation is over with (we did it in May), but the papers haven't been signed. I'll either find my previous post on what was decided on in that meeting, or I'll recap it here in a bit. What I was saying in my previous post is that I want to have "the last stand talk" first before I decide to either sign the mediation or ask to revisit it and make changes in my offer.

GD

Have you got your thoughts together yet on what you're going to say in the talk....let us know if you need some help!! Stay strong...keep dancing along!!

christarn,

Haven't put a second draft together for the last stand talk yet -- I need some more time to go through this thread and my last one to gather up everyone's input up to this point. Once I do that and compile some notes, I'll hammer out a new draft for DBer review. I have a DB coaching sesh on Wednesday afternoon, and I definitely want to have something to go over with her at that time (meaning I should have one put together real soon).

I'm getting ready to go have some coffee with a couple old colleagues, and then I'll be treating myself to dinner somewhere tonight before going to my Lindy Hop dance night. Chances are I might not be back on the boards until late tonight.

The following is from my post back on May 31st, and contains the mediation discussion and final outcome (though, again, papers have not been signed by me yet, so it is still possible to change things):

Originally posted May 31st:

"I just had my second mediation appointment today, and struggled a little bit on the staying happy and not being emotional (it's kind of hard though when you're forced to talk about the M or the loss of it, and are dividing up things). The big issue of course was my giving her the 40% of the net sale of our house once I sell it. As you know, this is what I offered her last week. However, when I reflected on it, I realized that I should've asked her what she thought was fair instead of making on offer (which I realized was me controlling the situation again).

So...today, I retracted the offer and asked her what she thought would be fair. She struggled with it a little, but felt that because her name was on the house, and she has paid all of the bills (for the most part) since we've been married and has worked the most of either of us but has nothing to show for it, that she should get half. She actually never said it, but she implied it and the mediator confirmed it. As I've said before, I always controlled my inheritance money, so we were never really equal in our 7 year marriage. She said during this discussion that all she ever wanted was for us to be equal, and I agreed that we weren't and it was my mistake for making this the case -- and that we should've been. I said that I felt guilty only offering 40% the first time, because it was like saying "you're only worth 40% of this marriage. I also said that I didn't want her to feel guilty in me giving her the money -- to feel like she owed me anything for doing so. I said that I just want the kids to be stable at both places (you know, good homes and lifestyles), and for her to not have to struggle if I don't. It just wouldn't seem right if that were the case. She then said that she wouldn't feel guilty if she used the money to buy a home, and promised she would. I said I believed her, and when the mediator asked if I wanted to put in the paperwork a stipulation that required her to use the money to buy a home, I said no -- I don't want to control any of her decisions anymore, and that her word was good enough for me. When then ended the mediation, we had a brief discussion outside about our son's B-day party arrangements and some other business, then parted ways.

So, question: Do you think I made a foolish choice in this offer, or do you think it was the right and/or noble thing to do? I don't expect it to bring her back (that would be foolish and selfish), but I do hope that she sees that it isn't about the money (or the control of it) for me anymore, and know that I do care about her and her future more than I do the money. This is a big 180 for me, and I think I can have more peace of mind from doing it. There is a part of me that feels like I shouldn't have to do it -- she is the one that left and didn't want to do counseling or try to work it out really, so why should she get anything? I don't know -- she has worked very hard for many years and has endured way too much emotional and psychological abuse from me during our M. I don't think money makes up for this -- nor should it -- but I think it gives her something to respect me for since I've lost it in almost all other areas."

Okay, just so everyone knows how much 50% is, it equates to about $250,000 to $300,000, and will be cash since the house is paid for in full.

Please give me honest opinions and what you think is fair, right, etc, and some reasoning too if you could. I need as many outside perspectives as I can get. I'm struggling with this decision so much.

Thanks everyone!

GD

GD,
That must be some house! Especially in Idaho!

Regarding the house, does splitting it 50/50 put you in any sort of financial bind? It sounds like you've got "leftover" inheritance money even after buying the house.

To me, if you feel like she was an equal partner in the M, financially, at least, then to me it seems fair that you split the house 50/50. Not necessarily for her, but for your kids. You want them to have a good quality of life when living with their mom. Splitting the sale of the house will go a ways toward making that happen. That's gotta make you feel good. I hear you on the OM thing. The idea of supporting, even indirectly, that guy has to gnaw at you. I can't remember what the stat is, but the vast majority of A "relationships" end. He ain't likely to be around for the long haul.

Plus, your long-term goal is still to reconcile, right? Is going back on the mediation going to help that goal?

BD

Hey, GD.

Here's my opinion. In light of the fact that you do still wish to reconcile your M, I think you will have to stay w/ the 50/50 since that is what you agreed to before. Going down to 40 or less for her percentage will not endear her to you. It will also tell her that she can't trust what you say because you previously agreed to 50/50. At the same time, I can understand how it will take a lot of pride swallowing to hand that amt. of money over to her (and essentially the OM). But you are going to have to give her some amount of money anyway, right? The difference in amount will be several thousand dollars, which is nothing to sneeze at, and you have to decide how important that amt. is to you.

If you weren't wanting to save your M, my advice might be different, but I think here you need to ask yourself, "Will this bring me closer to my goal or further away?"

Hope that helps some.

Thanks H and Kat -- both good points and I really appreciate the feedback. Oh, and H -- W's R with OM isn't really an A (boy, lots of abbreviations there!) because they didn't start seeing each other until March (about 4 months into the separation and 2 months after I filed for D), so I'm not sure if their R will revolve around the same kinds of issues as A relationships do. However, I tend to think their R won't last anyway. Definitely just a gut feeling, but I don't think the rose-colored glasses will stay on forever. We'll just have to see...

Other suggestions...? (i.e. bump)

I'm getting ready to clean up and treat myself to dinner somewhere and then head to my Lindy dance night, so probably won't be back until late tonight or tomorrow sometime. Any further opinions, reinforcement of other opinions, etc, are much appreciated. Thanks!

and...BUMP!

GD

First think of your kids...and what will be best for them. Since I don't have kids, I don't know the answer to this, is there anyway the money can be put into a college fund, or a fund that is only used by the two of you to help them? I know your feelings of keeping your inheritence to yourself...as my DB coach told me, it was my way of holding on to my parents a little longer. I did the same thing...I truly believe money is a blessing and a curse. I think you are so on course for talking with your DB coach, and then reading thru the posts....keep up your great work...hope you have fun dancing the night away! christa

GD,

Ah, hell. I had forgotten about the sequence of your W and the OM (what can I say, I live outside of DC, edit a tech pub, and have a degree in Int'l Relations; I love acronyms. Woo hoo.). I would like to revise and extend my comments, then. OK, it's a rebound relationship then and not likely to last. I'm inclined to agree with you; seems too soon to me.

Regardless, my original point stands -- I think it's in your best long-term interests to stay with the original terms of the mediation agreement regarding the house.

BD

Bump -- please refer to the longer post regarding mediation agreement (pg 9 of thread, I believe)

Thanks. I'll post my "last stand talk" rough draft #2 sometime tomorrow (today?), Tuesday.

GD

gd,

if it an a or not, its still too soon for w and in my view the r will not last. can't start a r in the wrong situation and expect good things. but her choice.

i agree about the house with the 50/50. if that is what you agreed to orginally, then stick with it. either way she is going to get a decent payout to buy a house, what she does with it is her business. i guess i look at it like this, your going to have to pay, might as well make it equitable for a few reasons. its another act of kindness if you don't make it hard for her, your both going to be coparents for the rest of your lives.

but like you said, you don't want to control her decision, don't give her any reason to look back and think gd did this and that is why it is like this. eventually her life will have a dark day and you want to be seen in a good light in her mind, not a dark bitter place.

Thanks Atlas,

I actually don't have to pay anything to W, since everything we have comes from my inheritance (except for her car), and by Idaho law inheritance money is not considered community property. In all actuality, I can basically leave her high and dry. I wouldn't do that, but sometimes feel like I should just go back and offer much less than I agreed to. However, after the posts here and talking with some old colleagues yesterday, I've decided to stick to the original agreement. I'm going to put in some type of stipulation though, which will state that the money that W gets cannot be subject to community property in the event that she remarries and Ds, because it is to be passed down to our kids in the event she passes away. I'm sure it has to be done/worded a certain way, but I think I can have it done in a way that protects her and my kids from losing half of what she receives.

Quote:

if it an a or not, its still too soon for w and in my view the r will not last. can't start a r in the wrong situation and expect good things. but her choice.

I tend to agree with you here, but at the same time I've seen these types of Rs go the distance too. Only time will tell -- just gotta keep DBing and making/showing changes.

GD

Just some brief journaling,

W had the kids at daycare yesterday and they had called and left a message on my phone about something naughty D3 had done. By the time I had gotten the message and called back, W was already there and picking the kids up for the day. After briefly talking to the daycare owner about the sitch, the owner asked if W and I wanted to talk about how we should address this with D3. We agreed to, and when W got on the phone she says in a happy and joking way, "Well, it sounds like your daughter is getting into trouble again!" I responded in kind with, "Oh, I see! It's always funny to me that she's my daughter when she's being the troublemaker!" To this W gives her cute little giggle that she used to do when we were together (I miss it so much!). We then talked about what we could do to address the problem with D3, came to a decision, talked about some other stuff (see below), and then said goodbye.

The reason I bring this interaction up is because W hasn't joked like that with me since we separated 8 months ago, and only giggled like that once since then. In addition, that particular joke was always a loving joke that W played on me whenever our daughter was being naughty. I don't know if it says anything more than the fact that W is getting more comfortable communicating with me, but what I do know is that I sure liked it.

During the phone discussion, W also asked me if she could drop the kids off with me early in the morning because she had to work really early again. I instead offered to pick them up so she wouldn't have to waste 40 minutes of time driving, and the kids could also sleep in a little more. She asked if I was sure, and I said, "Yeah, that's fine." So we decided on me being there at 5:30 to pick them up. When I got there I was friendly and upbeat, joked with the kids, offered to take all the bags to the truck so W didn't have to. W said thanks a couple of times to the fact that I came there to get the kids and saved her some time, to which I replied, "Sure, no problem."
I finished strapping in the kids, and we all waved goodbye to W as I drove off.

I felt good about all of this, and actually met one of my goals: "W will laugh and do her little giggle at times when we communicate -- to show me that she is comfortable when around me."

Babystep...

GD

Way to go GD! Keep it up. One down...

That's awesome, GD! I am sure it felt great and it met one of your goals too! WTG!

GD
Excellent!

waw, Kat, CVA -- thanks for the cheers!

I know that it wasn't a huge deal by any means, but it was an improvement nonetheless. For it to really start meaning something is to see it happen more and more. Once just doesn't cut it.

Getting ready to put the "last stand talk" second draft together. I compiled all of the notes throughout my thread, so it is just a matter of mixing and matching. Post will be coming soon.

GD

Hey everyone,

Finally came up with a draft #2 for the "last stand talk." Thanks for those of you who read through it and provide opinions. The talk will hopefully take place at my house when she comes to pick up the kids in the evening on Sunday the 29th (6 days from today).

DRAFT #2

"Hey, I was wondering if I could talk to you about a few things before you leave.

As the D date gets closer, I've been doing a lot of thinking. First, I want to apologize for filing for D in the first place. It wasn't something that I wanted, but something I did out of spite more than anything. At the time I was still struggling with myself a lot -- in particular issues like my anger and my need to be in control of everything around me. I know that at the time of filing, I also made some poor choices like asking for Primary Physical custody of the kids, and also not showing support or empathy as you struggled with your vision while trying to find my atty's office to sign the papers. I should've had compassion and genuine concern for you, and it is obvious that I didn't. Again, my inability to deal with my anger clouded my better judgement and I failed to be there for you yet again, as I have failed to do many times in the past.

Throughout our M, I consistently failed to meet your needs. I did what I thought you needed, rather than really looking at or asking you what you needed to make you happy. If I wouldn't have been so selfish, I would've seen the kinds of things that you valued and that were important to you. Heck, I actually saw things that were important to you but waved them off simply because they weren't important to me. I put myself and my needs on a higher pedestal and priority, rather than try to be equals with you like married couples should be. I didn't allow us to work together, to make decisions together, to grow together, and I should've never taken on that liberty. I took both you and our M for granted, and forced us to live a lifestyle that I thought was "right," yet neither of us truly wanted. I allowed my own insecurities to steer me in wrong directions, and I'm sorry that I wasn't strong enough at the time to love and value you for you, and me for me.

These mistakes, along with many others, are all things that I'm sincerely sorry for and will always regret. However, I've finally gotten to a place where I can own all of my mistakes, short-comings, etc, and let them go. For the first time, I've come to understand what it means to forgive and to truly follow through with it. It doesn't mean to forget, because that is nearly impossible to do. What it does mean is accepting past failures, mistakes, and choices that were wrong, but understanding that these things happen and recognizing that no good can come from dwelling on them. A person can't productively move on with their future while lingering in this past. For me to be the kind of person I want to be, this is something that I've had to learn. We both made mistakes throughout our M and R, and once I was able to face my role in the breakdown and failure of our M, I actually found that it was much easier to forgive you than it was to forgive myself.

Something else I wanted to address was my poor attempt at unfiling for D, and what I mean by that is the fact that I didn't talk to you about it, but instead sent the request through our atty's. Talk about sincere, huh?! How could I have ever expected you to respond favorably to such a request that was made in such a way? You know, the fact that I filed and got this ball rolling in the first place has been something that I've struggled with for a while now. I know that this is likely something that you wanted and may still want, but it isn't something that I'm ready to follow through with at this time. If you're not 100% sure that it is something you want at this time either, then I would like to postpone it. We can still keep the mediation agreement on file, maybe even file for Legal Separation. Postponing the D doesn't mean that there are any expectations. It just means that there is more time to consider things. When I forced you to make a choice shortly after Xmas to either get back together or D, I didn't realize how much space and time you needed to sort things out in your mind and heart. I was grasping for control again, because not having any was so new to me and I didn't know how to handle it. Unfortunately, I didn't see your feelings and needs at the time as having much validity, and if I could go back I would never have forced that conversation and would've given you as much time and space as you needed. I finally understand the things I did to push you away from me and cause you to resent me. I was a horrible husband a lot of the time, and you deserved better then and deserve better now.

I've been working really hard on myself and making changes that I know need to be made for me so I can be a better person. No matter what happens between us, I will continue to make those changes and make them to stay, and will be better because of them. I've said it before and I'll say it again right now: going through what we've gone through for the last 8 months was the best thing that has happened to me, and not because I've lost you, but because I've found me and the kind of person I want to be.

I guess I say all of this so I can get it off of my chest one last time and let you know where my heart is, but also because I'm not ready to follow through with the D yet. I understand it very well may be what you want, and if so then I won't stand in your way. I just struggle with the fact that I started this D process for the wrong reasons and now can't do anything about it. Would you be willing to put the D on hold for now?"

Okay, so that's the talk, draft #2. Obviously it is considerably longer than draft #1, and I don't know how I can possibly put it all out there without memorizing it or printing it off and reading it (which I believe wouldn't seem as sincere and spontaneous -- or from the heart as much). In the event that she says no, I'm going to come up with a follow up talk that accepts that and then mentions possible reconciliation down the road post-D, if circumstances and timing lend to such a possibility.

Opinions, suggestions, constructive criticism, etc, on draft #2? Thanks for everyone's assistance in this!

GD

GD

My opinion ( and its just that an opinion )

I have only had a quick read through and have some comments.

I think it is way too long for a start , there is no way you are going to get through that without having your W sidetrack the conversation.
I would also take out this sort of stuff

Quote:

I was a horrible husband a lot of the time, and you deserved better then and deserve better now.

Anything like this will just remind her of why she left and what a good idea it was. It is quite pursuing as well and may have the opposite effect of what you are after.

I know you have put your heart into this letter , however think something much shorter would be better or even just a simple statement such as;

W I am not ready to do this , I am sorry I started it , how about we postpone the D for a few months?

Remember your actions have spoken much more for you than a words will at this stage.

Dave

Dave - that was my very first impression too. Way too long, and gives W no room to really express herself either. I think this is a GREAT letter to write to yourself, but not to share with W right now - at least not all of it.

I think something simple and more to the point would be best, too. She's going to get overwhelmed after about 3 sentences of this, honestly... and I agree it may remind her why she left. Or get her thinking defensively, reasoning with herself why she was right to go.

Also speaking as someone who tends to write stuff here, practice it, re-write it, practice more... sometimes it's better to just have the top couple of points in your head, exactly as you want to say them, and forget the rest (cause most likely, you're going to forget anyway when the time comes!).

If it helps here were the key points I got from it, and how I might say them:

- (stolen from Dave because I think it's good): W I am not ready to do this , I am sorry I started it , how about we postpone the D for now? (I'd say now instead of "a few months"... leaves it more open)

- I've been working really hard on myself and making changes that I know needed to be made so I can be a better person. It's been hard, but going through what we've gone through for the last 8 months has really helped me to find myself and the kind of person I want to be.

The rest of it... if I really step back and try to look at it from a WAS perspective... I just wouldn't share it right now. I can provide some details if you want (based on recent conversations / interactions with my stepmom and sister in law, both of whom are WAWs at the moment). But I didn't want to go into that unless you really want to hear it.

Hey GD,

Sunny here, finally coming up for air $\:D$ Nomo dropped in on Still & me & the activity level has been much like the tempo of the posts.....non-stop.

Have been keeping up w/you though & want to say it sounds like a big positive. She is regaining some of the connection you two had. Anytime there is a giggle, it's a big step in the right direction.

You handled that whole sitch extremely well, especially adding on the P/U so she wouldn't have to stress about it.

We'll be catching up w/you in a while.

Cupcake

Thanks Dave, Nikki, and Sunny!

Dave & Nikki,

Quote:

Quote:
I was a horrible husband a lot of the time, and you deserved better then and deserve better now.

Anything like this will just remind her of why she left and what a good idea it was. It is quite pursuing as well and may have the opposite effect of what you are after.

I'm sure you're right, and I debated on whether or not to include these kinds of statements about the bad times in the M. However, I was coming from the POV of waw1978 in that it would be good to apologize for my role in the breakdown of the M. I also think the two of you are right in that it's way too long and would be overwhelming for her to hear (and for me to remember). I'm just not sure how to evoke the emotions in her to actually agree with postponing the D. I mean, this is the "last stand talk" -- I don't know how effective a few sentences will be in convincing her or at least getting her to consider it. This is my last chance before D day. Is making it that short and sweet good enough? I do, however, like the combination of Dave's statement and your additions to it, Nikki, and think that it could be pretty effective in getting my major points across. I just don't want to risk leaving out something that would be important for her to hear (i.e. that she might want/need to hear), but at the same time I don't want to risk overdoing it (which I agree I've done). It's just a double edged sword.

Nikki,

Quote:

The rest of it... if I really step back and try to look at it from a WAS perspective... I just wouldn't share it right now. I can provide some details if you want (based on recent conversations / interactions with my stepmom and sister in law, both of whom are WAWs at the moment). But I didn't want to go into that unless you really want to hear it.

I would like to hear it if you're willing to go into it. Any WAW perspective is helpful.

Sunny,

I'm so bummed that I'm missing out on all of the fun! $\:\($
Glad you are all having a blast though! Still in suspense regarding last Friday...

Quote:

Have been keeping up w/you though & want to say it sounds like a big positive. She is regaining some of the connection you two had. Anytime there is a giggle, it's a big step in the right direction.

I suppose so, but I'm trying not to get too hopeful. After all, she is living with OM now. It did meet one of my goals, but I don't think I can count it unless it happens more than once every 8 months (preferably every couple weeks or so). Oh well, beggers can't be choosers so I'll take what I can get. Thanks for the PMA!

GD

GD...I am the WAW...and hearing my H take some ownership would be appreciated at this point...but agreeing with the others I wouldn't over due it, "horrible husband" may be a little drastic! I think you are deffinetly on the right track...what did your DB coach say...did you run your rough draft past him/her...keep up the good work!!

christarn,

Thanks for the feedback! Appt w/ DB coach is tomorrow at 1:00 Mountain Time, and I'll run it by her then. I'd like to get as much feedback as possible from DBers here first though so I can tell her what many people on the BB are thinking.

Can you tell me what besides the "horrible husband" talk is overdoing it? What would suggest I do to shorten it up without sacrificing the important points?

Thanks again!

GD

GD,

I'll chime in as well with the Greek chorus here. Too long. Though I'd be interested in hearing what others think of giving her the letter after you hit the high points. Anyone?

For the spoken part:

Quote:

(stolen from Dave because I think it's good): W I am not ready to do this , I am sorry I started it , how about we postpone the D for now? (I'd say now instead of "a few months"... leaves it more open)

- I've been working really hard on myself and making changes that I know needed to be made so I can be a better person. It's been hard, but going through what we've gone through for the last 8 months has really helped me to find myself and the kind of person I want to be.

I'd put in that you understand how controlling you were in the past and that the D proceedings were a way for you to maintain control. I'd go light on the "I'm changing" and definately not remind her that you were a "horrbile husband." Nicht gut.

Take responsibility for your anger and control issues. Weave that into Nikki's point about the last 8 months have been instrumental/important/key (can't think of the right word) to really discover who you are and be the man you want to be.

My sense is that you've got 4 minutes or so before she tunes you out. I hope I'm wrong, and if I am and this starts a discussion, I think you'll be ready to carry on and support your points in detail.

BD

Hi GD,

Your draft is very well-written and you obviously put a lot of time and heart into it. I agree w/ the others that my first impression was that it was too long. I can see how you might feel, though, that what was suggested would be too short for all that you want to say. Maybe somewhere in the middle, then?

If I am remembering correctly, you were, at one point, writing your W letters every week? (Sorry if I am remembering that wrong) If that is so, then I would bet that a lot of what you wrote in that draft was already written in those letters as far as where you went wrong in the M. There is no need to repeat that stuff. You have written it, she, most likely, has read it.

One thing you might want to make sure you say is that you don't expect an answer from her right that minute. What you are going to be talking to her about is going to take her by surprise and it would be best to let it sink in and give her some time to think about it.

That is perfect that you have an appt. w/ a DB coach tomorrow. I am sure you will get some great feedback from her.

GD - silly me, I forgot to start off with - YAY for those positives. Bet it was great to hear that giggle. $\:\)$

Ok... since you asked... this is ONLY based on recent conversations with two WAWs, my SIL and my stepmom.. not from me personally. Also... my SIL is really, really done. I don't believe there's any way her H could get her back at this point. He could be her dream man... doesn't matter, she's DONE. My stepmom on the other hand, seems like she could turn around. My dad would have to go through some monumental efforts, but I can see her turning around. I'm also giving kind of the extreme end of the spectrum, but it's what I can imagine those two saying to me if their Hs gave them this in writing.

(if their Hs said it aloud.. they'd tune out quick, that's why I recommend keeping it short)

So that said.. from both of those viewpoints... here's what kinda jumped out at me. This will get huge if I quote the whole paragraphs but I'll quote the first part and go in order.

Quote:

First, I want to apologize for filing for D in the first place. It wasn't something that I wanted, but something I did out of spite more than anything....

WAW thoughts: Why apologize? The M is failing, obviously you saw it too.

My take: It may be good to mention this BRIEFLY and then follow up with "It was an attempt to regain some control, not what I actually wanted." And if you MUST say it maybe turn the rest into positive instead of your failings. For example, "I should've shown empathy and concern for you instead of trying to take control."

Quote:

Throughout our M, I consistently failed to meet your needs. I did what I thought you needed, rather than really looking at or asking you what you needed to make you happy...

WAW: Yep. Thanks for realizing it but here you go again trying to manipulate me into doing what you want. And who are you to say what married couples "should" be? And you waved it off then, why wouldn't you now?

Out of that paragraph here's probably the part I'd keep:

Quote:

I took both you and our M for granted, and forced us to live a lifestyle that I thought was "right," yet neither of us truly wanted.

It acknowledges your role without overstating it, and also the fact that you acknowledge you BOTH didn't want it.

Quote:

However, I've finally gotten to a place where I can own all of my mistakes, short-comings, etc, and let them go...

WAW: blood boiling, steam coming out of ears. "Gee thanks, you ruined the last 5 years [10 years, whatever years they were 'miserable' this week], sooo glad you were able to forgive yourself and let that go, jerk." (seriously.. SIL said something close to this). And now YOU are telling ME how to forgive??? Forgive ME??? For WHAT?? You were the one who screwed up our M.

My take: I totally relate to what you're saying here but I honestly wouldn't share much of it. Don't bring up her mistakes, her forgiveness, any of that... it'll just piss her off.

Quote:

Something else I wanted to address was my poor attempt at unfiling for D, and what I mean by that is the fact that I didn't talk to you about it, but instead sent the request through our atty's. Talk about sincere, huh?! How could I have ever expected you to respond favorably to such a request that was made in such a way?

WAW: Yeah.. you tried to control me, it didn't work, now you're trying to control me another way. I don't care what you've "struggled" with, so have I.

My take: DO NOT ask her, try to push her, any of that if she's "100% sure" right now. Tell her maybe that you wish you had approached it directly instead of via the lawyers. Tell her what YOU would like, but don't push for an answer or ask her to see it your way. Keep it simple, like Dave suggested earlier.

Quote:

I've been working really hard on myself and making changes that I know need to be made for me so I can be a better person.

WAW: About damn time. Too bad it's too late for our M.

My take: Just don't mention it... actions, not words.

Quote:

going through what we've gone through for the last 8 months was the best thing that has happened to me, and not because I've lost you, but because I've found me and the kind of person I want to be.

WAW take (and also basing this on my H's reaction when I said something similar): yeah, this has sucked but it's been a good time to rediscover ourselves and what we want out of life.

My take: again based on my H... he was really touched when I said something like this. I said I hated how it happened and it was incredibly hard, but thanked him for teaching me that I had to find happiness within myself. DO NOT NOT NOT say you've "lost her." Mention losing an unhealthy M and wanting to start a new R with her with what you've learned - AT MOST - but don't say you've lost her. It makes her a posession, it plays on her guilt, and it also cements in her mind that your R is over.

Quote:

I guess I say all of this so I can get it off of my chest one last time and let you know where my heart is,...

WAW: And expect me to be there for you once again, not even ask for my opinion, just listen to YOUR problems.

My take: again keep it to the simple, direct request to postpone the D. Leave the rest out.

... obviously sitches very, people vary, but hope that helps some. Also look forward to hearing what your DB coach has to say.

nikki

I could imagine my W saying most of that stuff at some stage over the last year you have covered that mindset so well.

GD

When my wife was still living with me and OM R was going well she would have said all those things and more. I believe if I tried to confront her with anything like your letter I would still get a good dose of the above.
You know my sitch and I have learned that leaving it alone and detaching is the right thing.
Do you know the best thing I said to my W , the one thing that I think has had the most effect?

I went to her Apartment on a flimsy excuse and took up a couple of beers. I offered her a drink and we sat down . In amongst the small talk I said something along these lines. ( the exact words escape me)

" W, I realy do understand why you needed to do this and its OK you know , and I am OK with it"

I left it at that.

She knows I think it was a bad idea , she knows it hurt me and the kids , she has seen all that stuff .

If you think your W has not heard you in the past , just try changing your mind on something and see how fast she remembers exactly what you said! LOL.

I know you are worried about the D , but thats a train you may not be able to stop for now. Its not the end , There are plenty of post D success stories out there.

Dave

Ouch! I think I just got kicked in the nads!

(of course I'm kidding Nikki, but the tail is definitely between my legs right now! $;\)$ )

You make very good points, and I'll definitely kick them around. It is obvious that I'm going to have to go short and sweet with my talk, but I want to make sure I come across with confidence and a positive tone and body language too. I really appreciate the potential WAW perspective, Nikki. Thanks!

I'll keep taking opinions if anyone's got 'em!

GD

Yep, too long...

Make an outline of the most important things you want to say...

This way if you have to refer to your "cheat sheet" you can just tell her that you didn't want to forget anything important...then just say it like you mean it...from the heart...she knows you well enough to know if your being sincere or not...

Also...I would leave less time between the talk and the D...I did mine 5 days prior...I think this almost pressured him to make a quit decision rather then think it over too much...the bad part was he went dark for 5 months...the good part is he did agree to jointly meet before a judge to stop the divorce and revert it to a legal seperation....

I think too you are putting too much emphasis on YOUR changes...I would mention how you are working on your issues and will continue to do what you need to improve yourself so that everyone benefits...pointing out this is something you feel you need to do for YOU...

Do an outline...state what is important...and let me read that...okay?...I find it hard to really focus on the whole letter to really comment much because I get lost in the "stuff"...now sure how your wife is but if it is too wordy I do get lost...to the point, quick, and sincere...that works for me...

Hope this helps...Lin

gd,

i agree, make that thing short and sweet. it seems like a large part of it is a recap of things you were or did, and as nikki said if you go that route she will hear those things load and clearly, and when you start on the parts you want her to concentrate on, she will be thinking about those things.

i don't know your w, but maybe sit down and go line by line, after some editing, and think what her reaction will be from her state of mind and perspective.

as for you, i think if this is what you need to do, then do it. i'm of the mind set that i will not leave a stone left unturned, because if i do, i will never sleep again.

Thanks Dave,

I have never believed that I will be able to stop or postpone the D, and I've said as much. I'm trying to rid myself of this mindset though, and start with a beginners mind like Michelle has said to do (and Nomo reminded me about). Yes, I do believe that much of what I could say in the talk would like be damaging in the short term, and likely push her away for a spell. However, I tend to wonder the effect in the long term. I think that I would likely prolong the desire to reconcile in my W with this talk, but I'm debating whether or not that is a sacrifice I'm willing to make just so she'll hear much of how I feel.

Thanks again, Dave!

GD

Thanks Lin and Atlas -- great points and reinforcement of others too.

Lin,

I'll go ahead and do some outlining, but it might not be for a day or two. I'm still taking in everyone's ideas and letting them sink in. Plus I'll be getting my DB coach's 2 cents on the draft tomorrow, and I'll likely note the various comments by my fellow DBers and run them by her too. Thanks for taking the time to stop in! You've been really helpful of late, and I appreciate it a great deal!

Atlas,

I like your idea of running through it line by line and trying to consider hearing everything from the perspective of my W. I'll definitely give it a go and see what I find.

GD

Himey and Kat -- sorry! I forgot to get back to your posts!

H,

I think you're right in that I should go light on the "I'm changing" portion, but may want to steer clear of the owning my anger and control issues though too. It's probably best that I try to avoid painting old visions of the bad times in her head.

Quote:

My sense is that you've got 4 minutes or so before she tunes you out.

I think 4 minutes would be an astounding amount of time for her to stay focused! I'm thinking I've got a minute at best! I could probably ramble off the whole draft in the 4 minutes. Nonetheless, by talking about how long it would take her to tune me out, you've helped me see how making it short and sweet will benefit me more. Thanks for that!

Kat,

Quote:

If I am remembering correctly, you were, at one point, writing your W letters every week?

That is correct -- only 4 letters total.

Quote:

If that is so, then I would bet that a lot of what you wrote in that draft was already written in those letters as far as where you went wrong in the M. There is no need to repeat that stuff. You have written it, she, most likely, has read it.

Excellent point! I'm sure it's not like she forgot what I wrote, or anything. She did tell me when I had asked her about them that she had read "some of them," which in my mind honestly translates from Alien to English as meaning "all of them." I sometimes wonder if she's possibly even kept them (I'd love to think the answer to that is yes!).

Realizing this, I'm sure I can shorten it up and just hit the main points -- now I've just gotta figure out what she likely already knows so I can avoid that stuff, and focus on how best to entice her to consider postponing the D.

Quote:

One thing you might want to make sure you say is that you don't expect an answer from her right that minute.

Absolutely -- in fact, I think I'm scared to death at the thought of hearing an immediate reply!

I think I might even go with Lin's suggestion to wait about a week or so prior to D day, so it becomes more of a crunch time decision and causes her to have less time to consider it and therefore possibly overthink it. I'm thinking I'll tell her the evening before I leave for the Orlando event, which will be exactly a week from D day.

Thanks again guys! All of this feedback has been fantastic!

GD

Hello,

What is the point of your letter? Get to it and cut out everything else -- especially all the stuff about YOUR experience. That letter is ALL about you. Sending a letter all about you to a WAS is tedious, annoying for them and confirms their own views.

Be direct, brief, and to the point. And, if you actually want her to consider it rather than merely react to you by pushing you out of her space in whatever way is most effective at the moment, then send it by email:

"I am sorry I did not treat you better in our M. I can see how my actions hurt you deeply. You deserved much better. I am sorry for pushing the D. I would like to file for legal sep instead of D, or drop either option for now. Are you open to either of those possibilities?"

OT,

Let me just say that I'm honored by your presence on my thread -- I've respected your opinions a great deal everywhere I've encountered them!

Quote:

What is the point of your letter?

It's not a letter, but rather what I call "the last stand talk" -- a speech in all actuality. My D is scheduled to be final on Aug 16th, and since time is running short and I've been virtually pitch black for the last 2 months of our 8 month separation, I have been kicking around the idea of addressing postponing/recinding the D shortly before that day comes. So, the purpose is to convince W to postpone/recind the D. Any thoughts on how best to do this?

Quote:

That letter is ALL about you.

Excellent point -- any idea on how to focus the talk toward W while still getting her to consider postponing the D? Oops -- just realized you had given me something along those lines. Unless you've got anything else to add, nevermind! $\:\)$

Thanks for your time and thoughts, OT -- they are very much appreciated!

GD

from Sunny & Still on Sunny's computer:

Nick, We've just caught up, read the 2nd draft (never got to the 1st) and all the comments & suggestions and, honestly, came to the very same conclusion OT posted. If you really need, we can copy your script (since it wasn't a 'letter' so much as a talk, yes?) & highlight all the "I" stuff and "I want you to hear me" things. Not good.

You said:

Quote:

the purpose is to convince W to postpone/recind the D.

What part of this is NOT controlling, do you think? Making her listen to your realizations and wants & feelings is NOT thinking of anyone but yourself.

You are still trying to get her to do something FOR you, that YOU want and not her. Yes, it's a great thing (postponing the D; saving your M) but is, in effect, ARGUING w/her about what she thinks or wants or needs!

What is the short & sweet that you want W to hear? THat you're sorry (and it's okay to be non-specific here! Don't go off into the "for this & that" tangents); that you care for her (enough to let her go); that you are not wanting to go forward w/the D. Anything else is just verbal ma$terbation. This is NOT about you; it's about her. Care enough about her to allow her decision - whatever it may be. Put the germ of the idea of postponing the D in her mind, but don't ask for a decision right then. Don't even set a deadline. That would be pursuing & pressure, yes? THAT'S how you stop the control.

gd,

something i forgot. i've been thinking for a while about doing an apology and have been researching as much as i can. while the research i have found doesn't always necessary agree, or have the same elements the one thing that is in common is, the apology is about the other person, not you.

i think the letter does focus on you and your faults a bit. don't reply the tape for her and then send your main message. by the time you get there her mind will be rewinding and replying and she won't be in the best mind set.

try to make the talk so that you grab her attention, she wants to listen and then make your point. not really sure how to do that, but whenever you negotiate think how much you really listen to the other person. think back to things she has said, especially recently, and how she would like to be approaches.

Hey GD

Guess I missed the big party on your Last Stand last night! LOL.

Great way to get all of your thoughts on paper. You will be going into this prepared. It is a bit long and wordy. I do think the suggestions of going with a more direct approach would be best. Keep it short and to the point. Then let your W have her say...by all means after you have a dialogue going with your W, let loose with the apology. Don't say the "horrible husband part". Just acknowledge your actions that made you such.

I think the other WAW on here have given you good direction.

Hey all,

I want to thank EVERYONE for taking the time to put in their opinions on my last stand talk! It has all been extremely helpful and has shown me that I have a lot of work to do still before I figure out how to effectively communicate with my WAW.

The following is just cut and paste notes from various posts that I want to take from in creating a third draft -- one that is MUCH MUCH shorter and to the point.
________________________________________________________________

W, I am not ready to follow through with the D next week and I am sorry I started it in the first place. How would you feel about postponing it for now?

I've been working really hard on myself and making changes that I know needed to be made so I can be a better person. Going through what we've gone through over the last 8 months has been incredibly hard, and I hated the way it all happened, but I'm thankful for what it has shown and taught me about myself and who I want to be. It was also good because we lost what was an unhealthy R, and that definitely needed to happen for the both of us.

I want to apologize for filing for D in the first place. It was an attempt to regain some control, and not what I actually wanted. However, what I should've done was show empathy and concern for you instead of trying to take that control.

I took both you and our M for granted, and forced us to live a lifestyle that I thought was "right," yet neither of us truly wanted.

I'm sorry for sending a request to unfile for D between our atty's, rather than just talk to you about it. It didn't come across as sincere and was definitely in poor taste.

W, I really do understand why you needed to do this and it's okay you know, and I am okay with it.

I'm working on my issues and will continue to do what I need to do to improve myself so that everyone benefits. But especially, I feel this is something I need to do for me.

I am sorry I did not treat you better in our M. I can see how my actions hurt you deeply. You deserved much better. I am sorry for pushing the D, and would like to file for legal separation instead of D, or drop either option for now. Are you open to either of those possibilities?

I'm sorry for how badly I hurt you in our M. I care so much about you -- enough to let you go if that's what it comes to. However, I don't want to go forward with the D at this time. Are you opposed to the idea of postponing it or going through a legal separation for now?

I don't need or expect an answer right now -- I just want to put the idea on the table.

_________________________________________________________________

I'm getting ready to consult my DB coach here shortly, so in the meantime if anyone reads this stuff and wants to comment about any of it, please be my guest! I'll be taking from this, as well as from my DB coach's ideas, and putting out a new draft later this afternoon or evening sometime.

GD

Hi GD!

Wow, how did I miss so much??? Trying to catch up by BB, but it is tough. I will comment specifically on 3rd draft (unless a 4th comes after DB coach), but two thoughts. First, instead of how do you feel about postponing, I'd like you to consider postponing or I'd like you to think about whether the D needs to be finalized now as opposed to a few months later. Don't shoot for an answer from her during the talk. Second, everything you say should forward your goal of a delay. That's it.

Later,
Nomo

Nomo,

Quote:

First, instead of how do you feel about postponing, I'd like you to consider postponing or I'd like you to think about whether the D needs to be finalized now as opposed to a few months later.

I've struggled with how to word that part, but I feel like wording it in the way you are suggesting would make it about my needs and what I want, and therefore might sound controlling. What do you think?

I definitely won't ask her for an answer at that point (though she may just volunteer one

).

Quote:

everything you say should forward your goal of a delay.

Any suggestions from the above cut and paste notes on what those kinds of things might be in your opinion?

Thanks Nomo -- talk with you later.

GD

Quote:

Ouch! I think I just got kicked in the nads!

Aw sorry GD... I should've offered an ice pack along with my post. $;\)$

I'm glad it was useful to you. It's been a real eye opener listening to/seeing my SIL and stepmom, that's for sure.

I'm waiting for your next draft after talking to your DB coach - curious to see what they have to say.

GD,

This is about what you want\need. Don't try to hide that. This is the last stand talk. Don't hold back. Be honest. You think the D is a mistake. Its really big, and you want her to be sure about it. You don't want her to just plunge ahead. You want her to consider if a delay of several months would be something she could do. If she has any doubts she might. Frame your attitude about the talk as "W, if you have any doubts why not give it six months. You can always get the D later if you're sure. But if you're not sure now, why force this through?"

Okay, posting some notes from DB coach Vernetta for what an LBS can do during an 11th hour talk with his/her WAS about postponing or recinding a D:

1. It doesn't hurt to apologize for some of the major mistakes or choices you made that hurt your WAS or helped cause the breakdown of the M. If you frame it right, it will likely benefit you. It won't necessarily cement in their minds the reasons for why they were right to walk away. In fact, if you've shown them constistent change for a decent period of time, they will recognize that you aren't that same person you are referring to anymore. The frame she said you can put it in is this:

"W/H, I've learned a lot of lessons over the course of the last X months. Looking back on our M, if I could do it all again, here is what I would do...".

Framing it in this way allows them to see what a new/future R/M with you might look like.

2. Make sure you have a buy-in for the WAS as to why they should postpone/recind the D. Ex: I tell W that I'm not ready for the D right now and would like to postpone it for now. W responds with, "Why? How would doing so benefit me?"
-- what can you say at this point that will give her good cause to consider your request (what will make her really think it is a good idea)? What would be a good reason for her -- something finanical, something about the kids/family, something about health, something about you, etc? What is one important issue you can use to convince her that postponing/recinding the D is a good idea? That is what the heart of your talk stems from.

3. After creating a dialogue with the WAS about this, maybe say to them, "If there is any part of you that has any doubt about this D, can you let that part of you talk about it now?" Then just listen and validate.

4. Consider giving your WAS a letter that acknowledges and apologizes for XYZ, and explains what've you've learned through all of this. However, give it to them and then ask them to read it in front of you, so you can gauge reactions. You might get angry, sad, or both (or other). They may even stop and refer to something in the letter that makes them mad, which gives you an opportunity to say something like, "Wow. Can you tell me a little more about that?" or "I can understand how you would feel that way," etc. It opens more doors for dialogue on the important issues.

for my coach, I read through the cut and pasted list of possible things to say to my W that I recently posted, and she didn't seem to hear anything that she felt should absolutely not be said (of course at this point we were running short on time so we couldn't really break down the semantics of everything).

I didn't read her my long 2nd draft though, since I pretty much got the unanimous vote from everyone here that it had a lot of problems.

That's it for now -- kick around the above comments from my coach and tell me what you think. I'll be back to post some more later. Gonna let my brain rest on my issues for a while.

GD

My job at this point is to figure out that one thing that would cause my W to believe postponing the D would be a good idea. Consequently, I'm absolutely lost as to what that might be. It scares me about how telling that is...

GD

I don't see it as finances, based on mediation. My guess is if she has doubts they are about breaking up the family and\or how much GPI have learned and whether the obvious changes are real. You should talk about whether she has or if she has doubts. Even if you don't know why, she will. She can fill in the why blank? What if you guess wrong? Don't limit yourself.

Nomo,

Quote:

My guess is if she has doubts they are about breaking up the family and\or how much GPI have learned and whether the obvious changes are real. You should talk about whether she has or if she has doubts.

What do you mean "GP" or "GPI"? Also, do you mean doubts about my changes or doubts about whether or not we should D?

Sorry. BB typo. GPI was supposed to be you. On the doubts, I think you need to say to her (without asking for, expecting or even wanting a response during the last stand talk) if you have any doubts about the D then why not wait a few months. A D is a huge decision. There is a lot at stake for me, you and our kids. I would like for you to be sure about what we are doing. You can always push it through later if you're 100% sure, but don't push it through now if you're not.

That's what I mean by focusing on any doubt about D she may have. It doesn't matter why she has any doubt. If she doesn't, well you're out of luck for a delay. But if she does, make her focus on why D now with doubt.

Also, thinking about why is not a waste for you. You may be able to help her recognize doubt if she hasn't. But think of it as throwing out possibilities for why instead of having to identify it for sure by yourself in advance. Of course, start with the most or more likely candidates.

Does that help?

Nomo

It does -- thanks Nomo!

Rinse and repeat my last post.

Get to the point quickly and efficiently. Apologize, don't explain yourself. Say you would like to postpone things. Tell her it would be great if she could think about whether she is open to that.

As for worrying about making asking for the postponement sound like it is all about you, quit worrying. IT IS ALL ABOUT YOU. Trying to obscure that will get you nowhere.

Just get to the point already.

If you want her to hear any of it, you will make it a matter of a very few short sentences.