My marriage with my wife is a very good one. It is my 2nd marriage, and I learned about Divorce Busting only during the course of my separation and divorce from my wife of 17 years.
I remarried about 2 years later and our marriage is sooo much better.
In my previous marriage, my wife wanted sex about 3 or 4 times a year. While she agreed we should have sex more often, anything more than twice a month seemed excessive. Even early in our marriage when we were in our early 40's.
I married my second wife in my late 50's (she was in her late 40's - virtually same as first wife). She loved making love with me, and in the first year or so of our relationship, it was virtually every day we were together.
Then, I began to lose interest. And I began to feel that there was a bi side to me that was pulling me into chat rooms and captivating my imagination. It was embarrassing and I think a little hurtful to my wife.
This was not a new thing for me. It played a large part of coping with my earlier marriage and certainly helped bring on the divorce. I felt it was important to tell my wife about my inclinations. I thought I was over it, but obviously I wasn't.
Anyway, as I began losing interest, I felt, knowing her desires for sex, that she should feel free to possibly see another man in an NSA capacity. I felt I owed her at least that much. I know that she had gotten onto Craigslist just to excite her fantasies. I don't think she had any intentions of carrying it out.
Well to make a long story as short as possible, she did meet someone on line, met him for a drink, and while she didn't go to bed with him, they were somewhat intimate in a parking lot after leaving the bar.
I was ok with it. But more than that it totally turned me around. Suddenly my ardor for her was back - and better than ever.
We continued to explore this, and did eventually do a 3way. I'm still not sure if that is the way to go, and we are considering keeping everything monogamous. But then again, we are afraid if we go back to what we were doing before these incidents, that we will go back to the luke warm sex that we had.
I'd be interested in your comments.
Bob...I doubt anyone on this forum can really help you. However there are websites about there about polyamorous lifestyles and swinging with people "in the know" about those issues who can help you if you want to pursue that type of life.
I hope that your wife really understands what you two are getting yourself into, if you both choose to go that route.
I have only limited experience with this topic, but I do have some, mostly coming from close friends and associates who have been there and done that, and a tiny bit of related experience myself...and what I can tell you is that, couples who engage in this type of lifestyle do not stay together forever. So...I think it is important for you to decide something for yourself right now: Do I want this lifestyle I am considering? Or do I want to be married forever to my wife? You kind of can't really have both.
If you go and find the swingers websites out there, of course you will find accounts from couples who claim they are married forever and will be together forever and they've been doing this for 20 years and blah blah blah...those couples will be the exception. In reality, there is no way to maintain a healthy marriage that includes any type of boundaries, if you are also part of that lifestyle. So the couples who "make it" and stay together forever, only do so because there are truly no boundaries to their marriage anyway.
So please think long and hard because you likely will not get to have both your wife, AND a swinging lifestyle. One of those two things will have to be your choice.
DQ
My advice: find the excitement from within the marriage or get out of it. It takes effort to make sure you get the excitement out of your M but swinging/open relationships are generally doomed for disaster. You are initially excited by it because someone else either finds what you have as desirable (therefore it's a compliment to you) OR because there's the thrill of a chase or something illicit occurring. Also realize that there is a natural decline in sexual response and desire in men over time due to age and decline in testosterone levels. Simply going through a period of "lukewarm" sex isn't a good enough reason to me to expose an M to the hazards of such a situation. You haven't said how long this period has been, but what's hampering you from spicing up between the two of you without a third party involved? Is it because you may be wondering about your own orientation or aging or something else?
Personally, I would never get involved in something like this. I was bit hard by this though by my ex who not only had an affair with a bisexual woman but also participated in the threesomes and partners swaps with her. When I learned about what my ex was involved in, it totally disgusted me so perhaps that is coloring my response. (Remember Elizabeth Edward's quote about puking? I puked probably for 3 or 4 months solid.) But think of the possible emotional enmeshments that can occur and the threats of any STDs that can arise out of it. The alone should make you reconsider IMHO. Plus just my personal observation is that often times promiscuous behavior (my definition) is a mask for underlying issues that you haven't dealt with yet. Substitute sex for booze or pills or gambling. All can have a rather addictive component to them that can let you avoid the deeper issues.
My ex was completely screwed up by this situation and honestly, I couldn't stand the thought of him after learning all I had about what occurred.
Have you two considered a good marital therapist as well as individual T? Also I don't think it would be possible to have a solid, monogomous marriage should you really believe you are bi.
From all that I've read and learned having to go through the after math of divorcing someone who seemed to have been a secretive sex addict with the OW he chose, it seems to me that "open relationships" aren't really open. Think about this: there seemed to be a lot of rules attached to the situation (what you can do, what you can't do); that one partner does it simply to keep the other partner in the relationships (and the other isn't always happy about it); other emotional attachments occur that royally screw up the M; and the consistent lack of boundaries in such an arrangement lead to complete distrust and emotional instability with both partners.
Just my two cents from my observant role...
keyzblew...I just have to disagree with this: "Also I don't think it would be possible to have a solid, monogomous marriage should you really believe you are bi." I know this isn't about me at all, but I just have to say that I am bi and yet being in a monogamous marriage is no problem. Being bi doesn't mean you have to have multiple partners, it just means you could be with a partner of either gender.
Sorry, don't mean to take it personally, but I do feel the need to educate people about what being bi really means...
...carry on.
DQ
A couple things. While I may be bi, this whole experience has made me throw the whole "bi" think out the window. I am not at all tempted anymore, which is a big step forward.
I do believe that open relationships can work, but I am not positive it would work for us. I think it is great that we have seen what our relationship can be. Perhaps there may be a better way to achieve it.
Your claim about deteriorating sex drive may be true, but if it were happening to me now we wouldn't be having sex 7 to 10 times a week. That's certainly not a decline from my youth. I suspect it may happen some day, but hasn't yet. I'm pretty sure of that.
We do have rules. Nothing is done in secrecy. I am not seeing any other woman. She would only see another man if I approved, and that would mean that we would meet before hand. So far, I am not comfortable with her being with another man alone, and I am not sure that's going to change.
Another rule is that we c.c. all emails, we don't chat privately, we share everything and are completely open and transparent.
I think your experience was very different. Your husband was not honest with you, just as Edwards wasn't honest with his wife. In our case, nothing is going to happen without mutual consent.
We may very well decide not to continue with this "lifestyle". If we do, and our sex life goes back to what it was, we will most certainly see a counselor - or at least I will. Going back is not an option for me.
Thanks for your reply and observations. They were sharp and interesting.
In answer to your question of which I value more - a "swinging" lifestyle or my marriage - the answer to me is obvious - my marriage. But I think that is a false dichotomy.
First of all, the most important part of this whole experience is what wonderful things it has done to us. How great our relationship is. Maybe just experiencing it once is enough. Now that we know what we have, maybe having someone else involved in it like that is not necessary. I really don't know. We'll have to see. Does that answer your question?
Bob...its an answer that in the long run will be evident. Most people who end up swapping and swinging feel just like you do right now...that it actually enhanced their love and relationship, so how can it be bad? The problem is that in the long run, it tends to deteriorate and no matter how many rules you put into place, you will always see your spouse differently (and she you) than you did before this all started happening.
I've just known several people who fooled themselves into thinking they could handle it due to the initial excitment, but who in the long run regretted it and lost their marriages over it.
Please find me one example of a married couple who have been able to continue that lifestyle, and I'll show you that that couple is a total exception, and that they truly don't have the type of bond you can have with monogamy anyway, and that they are both breaking their own stated rules and are cheating on their spouses (by breaking the rules).
Sorry, if you really do the research you'll find this is true....but if you only scratch the surface, you'll find couples who are saying they love it, it works for them, it makes them closer, etc.
I just urge you to fully research it and try to find other couples who have remained married for many many years and who are not actually cheating on their own rules....I will bet you cannot find any. And that should be the evidence you need.
I'm sorry if I sound like I'm scolding...I've just seen a lot of pain in my years from situations like yours.
DQ
that sounds interesting. If you have already done the research, why don't you tell me what specific research you are talking about, and I'd be happy to look into it.
thanx
EDITED - INAPPROPRIATE POST - NOT ALLOWED. You must comply with the DivorceBusting.com Board Rules if you would like to continue the privilege of posting here.
Bob...most of the research I have done, was done by watching close friends fall into a strange trap. Other research I have done, was done by asking my very VERY sexually experienced partner (whom I've been with for 5 years now) about his experiences and the experiences of his friends who were similar in lifestyle to what you are describing. He had his bad boy past waaaay before I knew him, but he had a very common reaction to it: It was fun for a while, but pretty soon you realize that there is a mental problem with nearly everyone who joins that lifestyle. They are usually not doing it just because they are really into sex and are good at it (which was his position), but instead, they are emotionally damaged and they are seeking to subconsciously fix internal problems through sexual activity. Maybe that sounds weird, but it happens all the time.
The easiest example of this would be the young woman who has daddy issues, cozying up to and having sex with men who fulfil a father role, maybe even marrying him. The problem with this young woman is that cozying up to a father figure will NOT solve her actual problem. But because of the way human nature works, she will be led to those sexual encounters, and tell herself all the way there that "this is what she wants". She may have no clue that she is actually being led to do this by an emotional problem inside of her, and therefore, its not actually what she wants....what she really wants is to deal with this problem but she has no idea how.
And so beyond my own close friends and my partner, I have also done a lot of reading on both sides of the subject: the side of the swingers and the side of people who used to be swingers and who have lost their partner (and possibly lost a lot more than that) due to swinging. Unfortunately, the time in my life when I did most of that reading was several years ago and I don't know what websites, etc, I was looking at....so I can't give you any direct resources, sorry.
I hope you do the research on your own anyway though.....
DQ
I want to thank all of your for your input. My wife and I discussed the issue of our "open" relationship. Here's where we are with it:
We embarked on this venture to improve our sex life. It worked wonderfully, and I think we both acknowledge that.
Now, we are on the right track. Sex has been so incredible and so different from the way it was, that I can't imagine going backwards.
So, we don't feel that we need to endanger our relationship by continuing to have others involved sexually with us. The one 3some we had was enough.
We passed the word on to our 3rd partner, and we hope and expect that our excitement for one another will stay.
I think we are damned lucky to have each other and to be able to enjoy our sensuality at our ages (61 and 50). And we are even more lucky to be so in love with each other.
DQ,
Then my two cents is you have made the deliberate decision to not be bi in order to maintain a monogamous relationships. Period. If the monogamous R is no problem, then why are you on a divorce busting board? There must be trouble in paradise somewhere. (No, I'm not attempting to call the kettle black or point fingers; however, it truly does take two to tango. There has to be some indecision in your sitch somewhere or had to have been and to be here would indicate to me you are working through some problems in your R in a positive or healthy manner.)
One thing I see over and over again are people who deliberately put themselves in a position where they remain in a "gray zone" in order to be able to have an "out" -- in order to remain less than fully committed in a relationship. Sorry, I don't buy your argument.
You may carry on education others as you believe; however, "bi" or "bi-curious" is often an excuse from what I've learned to maintain a swinger's lifestyle. It damages marriage, often times beyond repair because inevitably one partner is going along with an "arrangement" in order to keep the other P in a relationship. It may be me taking things tooo personally, but there is always the flip side on which I feel I do need to educate others on as well.
I do not know anything about your situation; you probably no nothing of mine. My 7+ year old posts here are long gone. However, I witnessed what I had. It was awful. Two people (my ex and his OW) were two of the hugest emotional and mental walking wrecks you'd want to imagine. The OW thought the same as you. She is now singing a much different tune from what I can tell. Let's see...a destroyed marriage, a totally destroyed R with my ex, a destroyed family, many emotional problems due to what was called "I could be with one or the other." I call that
indecision. I do believe the OW maintained the "ability to be with one or the other" simply because it was exciting to my ex, it kept him around for a bit. When it got way to emotionally difficult for them both, it was a psychological nightmare. I think you have pointed that out clearly through your responses to Bob
Congratulations.
Keyzblew,
You are looking at DanceQueen through the clouded lens of your own hurtful experience: and directing the anger and bitterness that your feel towards the OW in your own situation improperly at DQ. Before attacking her and making false assumptions about her, get to know her. Read her past threads here.
DQ is a woman on a mission: to aid others in -avoiding- the same fate that her own former marriage took. While some might take this as "Do as I say, not as I did", I see it as a woman who experienced a massive train-wreck, and then afterwards went on a mission to understand FULLY what happened, why it happened, and to never again let it happen to her. Along the way, she also became a zealot with the goal of helping others avoid the same type of train-wreck.
She does good work here, and is a valued part of our community. So back off a notch, and recognize that you're projecting onto her what you feel towards the OW in your situation.
-- B.
Thanks Baggy! Very much....
Bagheera,
I don't believe I directed anything such at DQ. I simply stated my background. If you wanted to see anger, you would need to see the posts I made here many, many years ago. What I did proffer was a second-person perspective on that trainwreck.
I don't see where I attacked her simply by stating the fact I had a second-person experience and had somewhat (!) objectively witnessed the trappings of such an arrangement...and how it does destroy relationships. DQ's experience may be first-person whereas mine is second-person.
I do stand by my statement that she made a deliberate decision not to be bi...face it...in order to have a successful, monogamous, relationship that had to have been accomplished, no? We can "feel" or "believe" (the nouns, the things) we are anything we wish to be. But in order to do something, we must act-->that is to decide (the verb).
I have been around this board for many, many years, having my own mission. Also have read much around here. I have not attacked anyone, nor was that my intention. You most likely do not recognize me...I don't post all that often anywhere on this site any longer. People who do know me from this board (and I have met many, many in person) understand my intent is just the same as DQ's. I am not projecting anything onto DQ. Why is it when someone who clearly has been hurt but attempts to make an objective observation is often accused projecting? (Let's not get into a volley of responses here...but do ponder that rhetorical question.) I'm not certain of where I even took an accusatory stance of saying DQ was stating "do as I say, not as I do!"
Bob, you are welcome.
I'm not sure but it does seem to occur to me that folks may be thinking I am taking a moral stance here. I am not...what someone does is their business until they begin to communicate about it. When it gets to that point, esp. on a internet chat board, well then they're looking for opinion in my book.
Still, I do encourage you to read up on ALL angles of this "lifestyle." Because it does seem interesting, exciting, and fun you may not quite be seeing all of the repercussions of it yet. Sort of like buying that brand new car--it looks shiny, new, and fast compared the the old clunker in the drive. Then you finance it and drive it off the lot and what happens? It immediately depreciates and sometime not too long afterwards...new repairs. Tires, tune ups, scratches, dings, and dents. So the excitement is only temporary.
Because my ex was dishonest with me does not preclude or promote the notion that swinging/open relationships are healthy lifestyles. By definition, it is excluded from marriage. (And BTW, I am NOT much of a religious person. I really have not practiced any formal religion since elementary school.)
What I do see in many people I have talked to or met during my experiences is that this is done out of a need to put "excitement" into life...and face it, we're a society pretty much addicted to excitement. We can't be happy with what is. We see what we can't have and we want it... it's part of what's brought us to this financial nightmare we're in LOL. We want newer, bigger, faster, whatever we DON'T have.(Face it...how many folks have lost homes due to non-conventional or shady financing in the past year or two...hmmm!)
Learning to truly love someone means acceptance of the humdrum and routine as well as finding ways to spicing it up. And to me, marriage is exclusively monogomous. If you don't want a monogomous R, then why even BE married?
Just for what it's worth.
Kezy...I'm really sorry for your past...but you really did insult me by stating that a bi-sexual person cannot be monogamous. You are entitled to your opinion, but it is only that - an opinion.
DQ
I won't take responsibility for how you interpreted my message. I simply stated my opinion as well as you had yours. If you read carefully what I'd written, you may get another intepretation: read the part about decisions. I think in part that is a high compliment on your part. Part of sexual orientation is how we decide to behave and act. It does seem to me you have taken the high road.
And yes, we are all entitled to our opinion. I am never insulted by opinion although I am not thin skinned and am only insulted whe someone directly slurs me.
I don't understand why you even need to keep talking about it? I already said I don't agree with your opinion, so you feel its necessary to describe your opinion again and again, hoping I will eventually agree? Have fun with that, I guess.
DQ
I came upon this interesting tidbit from the eminent sex advice columnist, Dan Savage that is relevant to the topic and both thoughtful and provocative:
Over the past few years, my husband and I have realized that he has needs that I cannot meet. I do not begrudge him these needs, and I would fill them if I could. I want him to be a happy and satisfied person, not just for him, but for myself as well. We discussed opening our relationship, but our therapist recoiled at the idea. If I can’t help him and we can’t have someone else help him, what can we do? We can’t imagine breaking up, but if we’re both unhappy, then I can only assume that we will split eventually or one of us will act out in resentment. We have been together for over a decade and love each other deeply. I am physically sick over this situation, and I don’t know what to do. I don9 9t know that I fully trust our therapist, and I would like to hear an informed second opinion. I value your advice.
—Life Decisions
Here’s an informed second opinion: F**k your a**hole therapist. And here’s a better-informed bonus third opinion:
“It’s incredibly unfortunate that some therapists either aren’t educated about open relationships or buy into common myths about them,” says Tristan Taormino, activist, author, pornographer, and author of Opening Up: A Guide to Creating and Sustaining Open Relationships. Way too many therapists, she says, “pathologize people who want to openmtheir relationships and try to convince them that they have intimacy or commitment issues. The truth is you can be both intimate with and fully committed to more than one partner, or be committed to one partner and have sex with others.”
Tristan interviewed scores of couples in successful open relationships, and she found that many initially opened their relationships because of an issue of sexual incompatibility.
“The scenario you present is not uncommon,” she continues. “If both of you really are committed to giving it a go, I’d advise you to find a new therapist, one who has experience with—and not a prejudice against—nonmonogamous clients. The right therapist can help you figure out your limits, set boundaries, and make an agreement about this new type of relationship that works for both of you.”
You can also check out the stories, advice, and references at Tristan’s website, openingup.net. Good luck, LD.
Bob - I saw this post on another marriage forum and thought I would copy and paste it for you, so you can see some other stories about swinging.....
So...my wife and I did something really stupid with our marriage. I guess we just took it for granted. We thought "hey, why not start swinging?" And we did. My wife and I truely love each other and are very devoted, so I thought anyway. It went great for about 3 months and even boosted our sex life with each other. Great right? So I went on a business trip and she said she was hooking up with a guy. No biggie, we had the rules layed out an all. But this one turned bad. She got emotionally involved with this guy and talked to him on the phone and texting for the next 4 days until I got home. Funny how she didn't seem the same on the phone after the night she went out with him. So she tells me the night I get home that she thinks we need a break!!!! We talked about it and she didn't come out and say anything about being involved with this guy after the fact. I was devistated. But after reviewing phone records the next morning it was apparent something was going on between them and they were texting each other constantly until the moment she pulled in the driveway after returning from work the day I got home. Also, she didn't respond to me when I was trying to get a hold of her that day.
Now, I went crazy about this and told the guy never to speak to her again (to put it nicely). She met with him that day and "she says" that they agreed not to contact each other anymore and as far as I know they haven't. She said she needed to see him to see if HE was the reason for these feelings she was having and she said it wasn't him. We continued to talk this over that weekend and she really seemed ligit in her concern about out marriage and not sure what was happening. She isn't sure what she wants anyone and that she needs to move out but still wants to be a family.......sounds funny to me. She cryed, I cryed and we both know this swinging crap is the cause of all this. She isn't sure now if she wants to be married all her life or where her life is going, but she does admit that it figures she would screw it up.
She now has an apartment and will be moving out on the first of the month. Currently, everything goes on in the house as if nothing is happening.....I cant take it! She claims now that it wasn't just the "guy" but it was something building up for a while and we were growing apart. I didn't see it that way. Neither one of us hate the other or even dislike each other. We get along so great and even during all of this. But I kind of just want to blow up and wipe my hands clean mostly because I cant believe a "boy toy" fling screwed up a wonderful marriage. I am so confused by all of this........
The "plan" is to rebuild our marriage back the way it is/was/should be. Any she feels she needs to make this move in order to do this. Am I being stupid if I buy into this or am I being strung along as a husband?
I haven't been here in quite a long time, but I noticed that you had responded to my post, and I thought I'd continue what I feel is a fruitful conversation.
My wife and I have been involved in three ways for nearly a year now. Neither of us has any desire to see anyone separately. We found that it has lead to a wonderful sense of freedom and our sex life is beyond my wildest dreams. I am in my early 60's and she's in her 50's and we make love 25 to 30 times a month. And it is almost always wonderful. We find ourselves playing verbally and sexually in the kitchen, livingroom and den! Even in the car, even on the phone. We send very suggestive emails back and forth daily.
We are madly in love with each other. We email the other guy from time to time, but always c.c. each other as well. Whoever receives his email forwards it on to the other so that we are never in the dark about anything.
When an encounter is coming up, we talk about it, fantasize together about it and it has almost always been fulfilling and rewarding.
I am not suggesting this to anyone else. It works for us. I don't know why, but it does, and I truly don't care why it does.
I don't believe that people are naturally monogamous, and I think that three ways allow us to experience something different without one of us betraying the other.
I will say that my wife doesn't want a three way with another woman, nor does she want me to do that with another couple. I told her that it would appeal to me, but I have absolutely no qualms about not doing that. The sex life we have together, including our 3 ways, is exceptionally fulfilling and neither of us have any inclination to stop at this time or any time in the near future.
So, while you have cited another couple's experience, mine is different. Yes, a lot of people who have open marriages of different types end up separated. A lot of people who commit or say they have committed to a monogamous relationships also break up.
I will agree that when one or the other person becomes uncomfortable with it, you have to stop, negotiate and if you can't come to an agreement, then find other ways to have fun together. Arm twisting will only damage a relationship.
I had an open mind about this as did my wife, going into it. We were both a bit scared and hesitant. But we had enough faith in the strength of our relationship to know that we would be committed to working things out if it turned out to be a bad experience.
So, it's not for everyone. It may not even be the right thing for almost anyone. But it's right for us.
I would be really interested in hearing from others who have been involved in similar experiences both good and bad.
bob
if they have who here would admit it? LOL
Well, Bob, Dancequeen and Keyzblew all admitted it, right? I know I write about things here that I wouldn't elsewhere, because this is the only place, either online or in the "real world," where I hide my identity.
I can't help but wonder whether age makes a difference here. Can a 50s-60s couple (do I recall correctly that neither Bob nor his bride are on their first marriage?) have an advantage over a 30-year-old couple when it comes to making sense of an open marriage?
I will say that I have the group sex fantasies that it seems most men have, and women too. But I've reached the point where I think I know myself well enough to know I prefer the fantasy to the reality. My problem is not that my life is too simple, and adding complexities is not going to help.
Truthfully, I think age and maturity is a big difference. I could have never handled this 10 years ago and even more.
You are right in assuming my wife and I are not on first marriages. We both escaped from sexually sterile marriages and we really really appreciate the fact that we both love and desire each other.
You may well be better staying with the fantasy rather than the reality. And if that works for you, why not? For us, the fantasies were nice for a while, but we had that nagging feeling that we wanted to at least explore the next step. We both trusted each other enough to know that there was no way we would have wanted someone else anywhere near as much as we want each other. And we both knew that if either of us were uncomfortable with this that we would stop.
In fact, at one point, she didn't want to continue. It bothered her. So, I agreed that we would put an end to it. Then, after a while, she found the desire to have sex with someone else growing again. I was very ok with that within our boundaries. So, we are continuing, in a VERY selective way, to continue our explorations. And so far we are really enjoying it.
bob
The only thing I can say is this: One of the things I love most about my marriage and my husband is the fact that he would never, ever share me (sexually) with anyone else. His sexual possession of me is my greatest aphrodesiac. It makes me want him sexually all the time.
Where I work, there are several really cute girls who work there with me. Some of them dress very sexy, showing some blatant cleavage or miles of legs in short skirts with sexy stockings. These girls have boyfriends or husbands. All I can think of is "wow, its so sad that their boyfriend doesn't cherish them enough to insist that she keeps her goodies covered up in public, especially at work". In my life, my man wouldn't let me out the door in something that shows any cleavage or too much leg.
Don't get me wrong - I am a sexpot and I look sexy no matter what I wear...so its not like I dress like a bum or an old lady. And my husband makes sure to flatter me and tell me that no matter what the other girls are wearing, I still look the sexiest in any room I walk into.
But the point is that he will not share even a glimpse of my flesh with anyone else. He knows they will be checking me out anyway, but at least he also knows that they will never be able to see down my shirt or too much of my legs. He knows that this is special, only for him, and that I want it that way, too. He isn't inhibiting me. It is my choice to respect his wishes to not share my skin with others.
When I get home from work, he peels my clothes off layer by layer and makes sure my skin gets all the attention it could possibly ever want.
Sharing ourselves only with each other and being fully monogamous has its own type of sexual excitement. We can even take this further and make a whole game out of it in the bedroom (use your imagination).
If he ever wanted to share me in any way, I would wonder "who is this man and what have you done with my husband?" Even if he just suggested that I dress extra showy-sexy-lots of skin showing, and we went out on the town just to see how the men would stare at me...to some couples, that might seem flattering to her. It might be a turn on to some men to have men stare at his woman. But as I already said, men will stare at me no matter what I wear and this is NOT a turn on to my husband. He is ok with it as he knows that's how men are, its never going to change. But to suggest that we go out to deliberately catch the glances of other men? I would think he was on drugs or had a concusion. It is just not the way we enjoy each other.
Of course, not all couples are the same and I can respect that you and your wife are both enjoying the swapping/sharing thing that you are doing. I am just trying to offer to you this - just because you think that you are doing something that is at the height of most people's fantasies, I and my husband have a different fantasy. We have the fantasy of hot monogamous behavior, possessiveness, and ownership of each other's bodies.
And as far as variety...I have already said earlier on your thread, with role play, imagination, and a good sex closet, either of us can be ANYONE we want to be...there is no lack of variety in our monogamy. I am every woman, he is every man. And even the man-woman lines can be blurred within your own imagination.
DQ
I have no issue with anything you said. It works great for us and it wouldn't work for you. My wife finds it hot to hear other guys get as excited over he as they do, and her excitement is an aphrodisiac to me.
Personally, I am more comfortable with a 3 way than with role playing....I just can't get it out of my head that it is only a game. We've done some role playing, with some success, but it's really not the same for us.
bob
quick addition. If I gave the impression that my wife and I don't enjoy sex with just the two of us, that is far from the mark. We make love about 25 or 30 times a month and we only allow someone else to join us in bed about 3 or 4 times a year - certainly not a nightly ritual.
bob
Bob - do you realize that there are many forums out there for swingers where you can share stories with others who are happy to swing? Not sure why you are wanting stories of that nature on this forum. Most people here are struggling to have a monogamous sex life within their marriages, but there are so many other forums out there. Maybe try looking for one of those? You'll get all the stories, good and bad, you are looking for, if you just look in the right place.
DQ
But the point is that he will not share even a glimpse of my flesh with anyone else. He knows they will be checking me out anyway, but at least he also knows that they will never be able to see down my shirt or too much of my legs. He knows that this is special, only for him, and that I want it that way, too. He isn't inhibiting me. It is my choice to respect his wishes to not share my skin with others.
This is a really interesting point DQ.
I totally get why that's sexy for you. It is for me too - but I really fight it. It's a tough one intellectually (and maybe it's personal to me because I've worked and spent a lot of time in Middle Eastern countries where it's haram for women to be uncovered) but the idea of a man, lover or not, having a say in how I present myself pushes my buttons every time.
It is hot when a man wants you all to himself ... but it also creeps me out when men express that - because the flip side is that he should be secure enough in the relationship and mature enough to respect that it's not something he has a right to have a view on - it shouldn't matter what any other men think because we've taken a decision to have a committed relationship - trust that, or go deal with your possessiveness elswhere... ya know?
It's like women who dress their men, like don't trust them sufficiently to put together an outfit that they can be proud of ... so buy their clothes, or suggest they change when the outfit they've come up with isn't what they perceive is appropriate. Like a mother, rather than a partner. Maybe it's not the same, I'm thinking aloud, but it's still a kind of co-dependency ....
Certainly something for me to think about. Cheers,
v
Walking...I understand that it may sound that way...but just have to trust me when I say that I really am a sexpot, there are glances and hooting thrown my way everywhere I go, no matter what I am wearing. Therefore, my husband's "boundary" if you will, is that I at least don't show cleavage and extra legs.
I do still dress very sexy though. Great heels or boots, appropriate amount of legs, and hey...big boobs look sexy in a sweater even with no cleavage showing.
DQ
I do get it. I really do. I'm going to process it too.
thank you. V
Hello Bob-
You wanted to hear from others involved with swinging?
I'm another one here who's been involved in that kind of relationship, and FWIW- it helped ruined my marriage. My H felt that variety was too important to him, and so he couldn't say that our marriage was the top priority. Also, he tried to convince me of the fact that me not being an excited participant in this was indicative of "self-esteem and confidence" issues. If you want, take a gander at my very first thread here, I talk all about it, it's the story of swinging gone wrong.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1804433Slightly into that first thread, I talk about my he!! night, which is what I call our first swing experience. I feel like a very different person now than when I first wrote that. My friends here helped open my eyes to a very unhealthy marriage, and I finally got the courage to walk away from it over Thanksgiving. The whole thing has really messed me up, and I'm just now working my way out of it. Good luck to you if this what you both really want.
Bunny
I just happened to wander over here after not having been to this site in quite a while.
Someone asked why I would post things about 3 ways and swinging, etc on a site like this.
Personally, I think that most marriages break up because of the assumption of "fidelity" as the natural order of things if two people love each other.
I have nothing against fidelity, but I do believe that looking at open relationships and/or sharing as a potential lifestyle is perfectly legitimate and a possible solution to a lot of problems.
For a lot of people, being monogamous is just not right. They try to make it right and both h and w suffer. Obviously, it would be ideal to discuss that type of thing before marriage, but many people just didn't know until they were married...like me.
There are a lot of issues with opening up your marriage. You have to establish guidelines, and you absolutely cannot pressure someone into it. You need to have an understanding of what it means to both of you and what the other person can and should be in the relationship.
We invite a third man into our home from time to time. My wife is turned on by it and I am turned on by her. We have an amazing love life and an incredible marriage. We can't get enough of each other. And we feel that our occasional forays help us maintain the excitement and intensity of our sex life.
As I have said in prior posts, it worked for us, it has worked for a LOT of other people, but it won't work for everyone. If you are grown up enough to be married you are mature enough to figure out if this alternate lifestyle will work for you.
bob
This is the most ridiculous post I've seen in awhile. I think every person who has engaged in your lifestyle that I know of or that have indulged in it who are here have had their M ruined from it.
If you don't mind sharing your W, that's up to you. So what happens when she starts choosing sides of who she likes more? What about you? In fact it sounds like you're making sex the defining point in your M. What happens when one of you just don't want to have sex anymore or can't have sex anymore? Would you still think it's okay to be having sex with another person if your W can't? Pushing it further, what if one of you gets sick and just can't have sex? Would you still be comfortable having your W naked with another guy if you can't please her? I bet things would be very different if so.
I think those are fair questions Mr. Bond. My wife could potentially "choose sides" now, regardless of whether or not we are involved in what is obviously an alternative lifestyle. There are no shortages of examples of people who have done so without making a mutual decision to a freer approach to sex.
My personal belief is that if you can't have sex at all any more then you have no right to expect that your spouse gives it up as well. And that would be the case whether or not you were previously monogamous. In fact, I think that most couples when faced with that situation do have sex with others. Especially if the one who still can have sex places a high value on a sex life.
You asked me if I would be comfortable having your wife naked with another guy if I couldn't please her. I can only answer that I am comfortable with that now, and if I had no desire for sex, I doubt I would be less comfortable. And, since I know I CAN please her and do please her, it just isn't all that scary to me.
If I DID have a desire for sex, then there would be nothing stopping me from engaging in it unless perhaps if I were paralyzed.
Now to address your first point that every person that you know of who has engaged in a non monogamous relationship has had their marriage ruined. How many people do you know - do you think it is an adequate sample? Do you really think that many of those that do have an open relationship are going to tell you about it? Considering your views, I don't think they'd be comfortable sharing them with you. I know that without the anonymity of this board, I certainly wouldn't share them with you.
I think that I can make the case that a lot of people who have tried to impose monogamy on their spouses, especially when they weren't interested in sex themselves, have also ruined a lot of marriages, and in fact, some of Michelle Weiner Davis' books have addressed what abstention in a monogamous relationship does.
Non monogamous relationships are not for everyone. Monogamous relationships are not for everyone.
If you can, take a look at the web site
http://www.sexatdawn.com/ for a more historical and psychological perspective of monogamy. You might find it compelling and instructive. It was written by a husband (psychologist) and wife (psychiatrist). It challenges the assumption that man is "naturally" monogamous.
bob
Dear Bob48;
If an open relationship works for you and your wife, then I am happy for you. You admit that it might not be for everyone. It is not for me.
Over the past two years I have read way too many relationship books in an attempt to save my marriage of 39+ years, which is special to me. I believe that I have succeeded in saving my marriage, but time will tell. My wife and I have also had marriage counseling with a sex therapist because that was an obvious problem area in our marriage.
One of the more interesting books I read this past year was Mating in Captivity, which was about one woman's investigation on how a long term relationship can remain lusty, erotic and loving and what natural pitfalls seemed to block that. Obviously, an open relationship allows on to side step that issue. The short answer from the book is that you have to work hard at fighting familiarity and taking your partner for granted and work on reinventing yourself and your relationship.
However, for some of us who have struggled with a Sex Starved Marriage, fidelity and commitment are a huge challenge.
There is an interesting study
"The Science of Why We Cheat" article My take on the story is that "cheating" is a "slipery slope" that once you start down; becomes easier and easier. While my use of the term "cheating" implies a moral judgement, I choose it because of how I would feel, if I found out my wife had sex with another (devastated). You obviously see things differently.
As someone who has been in an SSM and managed to come out the end with the same partner and a healthy sex life, I feel that I have been challenged and that the challenge included one of not having sex with other women. I know other men who I like and admire who have had affairs and it has hurt almost all of them.
I think that the article makes some good points on how one can gradually over time dance up to the edge of something and once you cross a barrier (moral, ethical or otherwise) it becomes easier to cross. As such the barrier (non-monogomous sex which you propose) becomes something that frightens me and my ability to control my actions. It becomes something that I would negatively react to in a strong way. I am reminded of people who have adictions to which they try to avoid, by living one day at a time and avoiding temptations one day at a time.
It is more about my fears of loosing something that I have worked hard to maintain, than my disapproval of your lifestyle. You and your wife are free to live your life as you want. I am just explaining why I and others may react strongly to what you are proposing.
Perhaps MWD puts it well when she talks about infedelity
reeling from infidelity Working to keep a healthy marriage after infidelity is not for sissies and that the "...marriage is changed forever, innocence and dreams lost."
Again, while tempting, an open marriage is (in my opinion) a slippery slope and one that as you say is not for everyone.
Good luck to you.
Dear Young at Heart,
I don't think we have much disagreement here. But I take exception to the use of the words "infidelity" and "cheating". I am not recommending either and my wife and I do not cheat on each other.
The issue of cheating is one of lying, and a betrayal of trust. Open relationships are just that - they mean that we are open about what we want and do. We NEVER condone cheating and I would be terribly hurt if my wife cheated on me.
You reference a book that says:
"how a long term relationship can remain lusty, erotic and loving and what natural pitfalls seemed to block that."
and that "Obviously, an open relationship allows on to side step that issue."
I agree that we need to keep a relationship exciting in that way, but an open relation doesn't "side step" the issue, but rather deals with it head on.
Having 3 ways and accepting my wife's occasional encounters with other men does add excitement to our relationship and allows me to see her differently than just "the wife" all the time. It reminds me of her sensuality. Of course, our mutual love and trust makes it all possible. If I didn't believe deeply that she was as madly in love with me as I am with her, it might be a scary thing.
As for the slippery slope argument - well everything is a slippery slope I guess. But you can always stop the slipping. Monogamy, too can be a slippery slope. People fall into patterns and sex gets boring and then less frequent and then...well I think you already know what happens.
I understand why some people react strongly to my comments, which is perhaps one of the main value of my comments. If it makes people think a little and question a little and even recoil a little then that is a good thing.
Monogamy may be a good or bad thing, but like polyamorous relationships, should not be exempt from critical analysis. And for those who find that they were married only to find that they find monogamy nearly impossible, and open relationship is a hell of a lot better than a divorce if h & w can accept it.
Dear Young at Heart,
I don't think we have much disagreement here. But I take exception to the use of the words "infidelity" and "cheating". I am not recommending either and my wife and I do not cheat on each other.
The issue of cheating is one of lying, and a betrayal of trust. Open relationships are just that - they mean that we are open about what we want and do. We NEVER condone cheating and I would be terribly hurt if my wife cheated on me.
....Monogamy may be a good or bad thing, but like polyamorous relationships, should not be exempt from critical analysis. And for those who find that they were married only to find that they find monogamy nearly impossible, and open relationship is a hell of a lot better than a divorce if h & w can accept it.
Dear Bob48;
Again, if it works for you and your wife, I am glad.
I also think that I understand what you are saying (and agree in some situations) when you say "...open relationship is a hell of a lot better than a divorce if h & w can accept it." However, if the h & w are that emotionally together, then I think they should be able to work on curing their underlying problems that caused the SSM situation.
I used the word cheating and infedelity because to me an SSM is a mariage in crisis; one that has gone terrible wrong for some reason. This forum is all about those in an SSM. A marriage (to me) does involve at least at the beginning a pledge to forsake others.
My experience is that I was in a SSM, because me wife was angry at me and didn't want to have sex with me any longer or if we did have sex, she needed to emotionally hurt me to create a feeling of emotinal distance. She told me that if I had divorced her, she would not have wanted to have sex with anyone else. She told our sex therapist that she has never masturbated in her entire life and I believe her. She truly was LD compared to me and her anger at me ultimately turned LD into ND.
In such a situation if it did not change and we remained married, I doubt that her anger at me would have allowed her to say, "yes dear go off to a swingers party and have sex with others." I doubt that she would have wanted to have sex with others as well. So for me an open marriage was not a likely an option. I could be wrong, but don't think in our case I am.
I seriously doubt that an open marriage is an option for many SSM's, unless the HD person is incrediblly financially well off and the LD person is financially dependent. Even then an open marriage would not be a truly free decision mutually arrived at. There are still some Catholics that don't believe in divorce (but not many) and so for them, maybe it is an option. However, those that I know who don't believe in divorce, would probably view the lack of sex as perhaps their physical trial on earth that they must endure to prove their faith.
Sex with another woman would have been an option in my SMM situation. But as you say it would have been cheating on my wife. I believe you when you say that you and your wife do not "cheat" on each other. However in my case, had I just had sex with another woman without tellng my wife, or had I pressured her into saying to me "...yes go have sex with some other woman" it would not be the type of "open marriage" you are describing or that works for others.
Actually to use your words, "...if h & w can accept it." So while it may work for some, it is just too beyond my experience to see it as an option for me or many others I know who are in SSM's. Again, that doesn't mean it isn't an option for some. Which is why it is good to discuss.
I also think that if my wife had given me the freedom to have sex with other women, such sex would have prevented the healing that ultimatly occurred in my marriage. I feel that for me, trying an open marriage to get the sex and intimacy I needed would have created greater barriers to healing my marriage. It might have allowed me to preserve the illusion of marriage or redefined the marriage to my wife, but I don't think I would have been motivated to fix the marriage or end it and that horrible choice probably was what motivated my wife to forgive me and change the way she treated me.
So, yes, I think we are in agreement that an open marriage may work for some. However, I feel that my experience is that in an SSM there is probably anger, hate, shame, or pain that impeds sex between a husband and wife.
If there is love and respect in the marriage, but the reason for the SSM is perhaps medical on the part of one, then maybe an open marriage and sex with others might be an option. However, if find it hard to believe that a medical condition could prevent all forms of sexual contact, whether it involves, hands, mouth, genitals or even rubbing of two bodies together.
As you say, an open marraige is an option for some, but one that probably needs to come from a different starting point than most SSM's, which did have healthy sex at some point, but at some point the sex stopped or became unhealthy.
I can also say that I mentally understand the concept of marriage as being more than just love & sex between two people. I understand that it is about children, property, community roles, community status and family responsibilities. In other cultures, sexual fulfilment and love may be a trivial part of "marriage." In such situations, if both parties agree, sex with others may make a lot of sense and allow the marriage to fulfill its other functions. I can even understand how if that is the marital starting point, that sex, novelty and love can be present at the beginning and that sexual desire can wane after time allowing for the open marriage to fulfill the sexual needs of one or both partners.
You can call me brainwashed, old fashioned or traditional. I married my wife for love with the expectation that our love and shared values would see us through the hard times. To me sex, if done the way I prefer, is about making & building love between two people. As such, I can't imagine feeling good about my wife sexually sharing herself with anyone else. To me sex with my wife is about bonding with her and feeling close in a way that increases intimacy. I want sex to be a special emotional experience with someone I care deeply about. I can understand sex as a physical need.
If I were completely paralized (all extremidies and mouth), then maybe I would feel differently, if my wife were the high desire partner. I know that I want her to be happy.
Again, I think that some things we agree on, even if we come from different paths.
I hope that you and your wife enjoy each other and find happiness.
I am currently struggling with this same issue on my own thread...
My W started pressuring me to open up the marriage because of her being bi, and it very nearly destroyed us. We are together now, but living in limbo. Despite me having given her permission to have other partners, that I know of she hasn't. Although I know she is actively looking. She gave me permission too, but I have decided to take the high road and not pursue anything because I know that it would just make things worse for our M. (The only reason I have agreed to this arrangement, is because after reading these forums I have come to realize that in a way she needs to discover what she truly wants before she decides to truly commit to the marriage. Like WAW who find OM and need to choose on their own to leave them, she needs to choose on her own to end this crazy game she wants to play). She herself is actively looking, but hasn't done it yet, which leads me to believe she herself is still unsure. She has expressed that she finds the STD's terrifying, and finds it hard to find people she likes(whatever that means). After being in this board I have truly started to believe that most of our sex problems probably stem from basic marriage issues. I have been trying to work it out, but it has been almost two months since either of us has had sex with anyone. We are both very HD people, but she doesn't feel comfortable with me. Some days I think it's because she lives in this fog from the constant stream of suitors that email her profile online. So here we are, both frustrated, trying to make this marriage work, but almost stuck in limbo. We have a great friendship, and through DB I have cut the number of fights, and disagreements. Yet the intimacy is still missing. This may sound crazy but I feel like we fix our marriage issues the intimacy will come back, and then the need to go outside will leave. It constantly feels like I am racing against the clock, trying to regain the intimacy before she finds someone out there. I really don't know how I would react if there was a PA. It really scares me, although I actively encourage her to pursue it. I know that if I tell her to stop it will just push her deeper, almost as if there was an OM or OW involved. So I want her to make a choice hopefully before a PA occurs...
insane yes I know...
Greenblue - I want to make clear that I never have and never will suggest that an open relationship is some kind of cure all, or will work for many people.
I think your situation is somewhat unique in that your wife is bi, and that means she has very strong needs that can only be met by a woman. Yes, she can attempt to ignore those needs, but there may be a cost to her doing so.
There are numerous examples of people who are bi, who satisfy their Same Sex needs on occasions, but because they value their spouse and their family life, maintain a very healthy marriage. Perhaps if you examined that a little more deeply you wouldn't be so scared about it.
It is very possible that your wife will love you all the more knowing that you have come to terms with her sexuality, which she may well have been struggling with for many years.
On the other hand, it is just possible that your wife is actually gay, and is rounding herself down to bi. If that is so, she may never be ready for a sexual relationship with you. At that point you have to look at your life and figure out how to proceed. Could you be happy if she were seeing people outside your marriage and you were too? Is that something you would be willing to investigate?
bob
===============
I also think that I understand what you are saying (and agree in some situations) when you say "...open relationship is a hell of a lot better than a divorce if h & w can accept it." However, if the h & w are that emotionally together, then I think they should be able to work on curing their underlying problems that caused the SSM situation.
==============================
Hard to say. It is possible that the SSM situation is a result of someone just not having much of a sex drive. If you accept the premise that the cause is something in the relationship itself, then it is always good to work those issues out, obviously. But many times the very difference between a wife's needs and that of the husbands causes some of the issues that ultimately pushes the couple apart. In other words, it is essential to be able to differentiate between the cause and the effect, and that is not always transparent.
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I used the word cheating and infedelity because to me an SSM is a mariage in crisis; one that has gone terrible wrong for some reason. This forum is all about those in an SSM. A marriage (to me) does involve at least at the beginning a pledge to forsake others.
==================================================
Again, marriage can mean forsaking all others or it can mean accepting occasional dalliances. It really depends on what the couple wants.
Some people get into a marriage not appreciating the price of monogamy. After a few years of being faithful it may not feel right to that person.
Some open relationships get there by evolution, and others begin that way.
======================================
She told our sex therapist that she has never masturbated in her entire life and I believe her. She truly was LD compared to me and her anger at me ultimately turned LD into ND.
===================================================
My hunch is that based on your description of her, she may have used anger issues as a disguise to escape from sex and that her agenda (either consciously or unconsciously) was to take sex out of your marriage.
==========================================================
I doubt that she would have wanted to have sex with others as well. So for me an open marriage was not a likely an option. I could be wrong, but don't think in our case I am.
==========================================
My personal opinion is that abstaining from sex without mutual consent is cheating just as much as having sex outside the marriage without telling someone is cheating.
I don't think that you need consent if someone refuses to have sex. And, I don't think that the person with no or low desire needs to want to have an outside relationship in order for you to have one.
===========================================
Sex with another woman would have been an option in my SMM situation. But as you say it would have been cheating on my wife. I believe you when you say that you and your wife do not "cheat" on each other. However in my case, had I just had sex with another woman without tellng my wife, or had I pressured her into saying to me "...yes go have sex with some other woman" it would not be the type of "open marriage" you are describing or that works for others.
========================================================
First, I am not suggesting that an open marriage would work for you. I haven't a clue whether it would or not.
Secondly, I don't advocate your "cheating" on your wife. I think that it is a matter of saying, look, I had every reason to believe I would have a decent sex life in our marriage. It is something I want or need. Tell me what we need to do to get our sex life back to where I need it.
Then, if that doesn't work, it is time to say that you value your marriage and love your wife, but you are going to seek some other companion for sex from time to time. Period. You don't need consent and your wife doesn't need to be outside your marriage in order to keep it even.
=======================================================
I also think that if my wife had given me the freedom to have sex with other women, such sex would have prevented the healing that ultimatly occurred in my marriage.
==================================================
If you now have a relationship that you are happy with, then you have obviously made the right choice. Are you having regular sex now? Or are you resigned to the fate of having infrequent or no sex for peace in the house?
====================================================
[/quote]
I am currently struggling with this same issue on my own thread...
My W started pressuring me to open up the marriage because of her being bi, and it very nearly destroyed us. We are together now, but living in limbo. Despite me having given her permission to have other partners, that I know of she hasn't. Although I know she is actively looking. She gave me permission too, but I have decided to take the high road and not pursue anything because I know that it would just make things worse for our M. (The only reason I have agreed to this arrangement, is because after reading these forums I have come to realize that in a way she needs to discover what she truly wants before she decides to truly commit to the marriage. Like WAW who find OM and need to choose on their own to leave them, she needs to choose on her own to end this crazy game she wants to play). She herself is actively looking, but hasn't done it yet, which leads me to believe she herself is still unsure.
... I have been trying to work it out, but it has been almost two months since either of us has had sex with anyone. We are both very HD people, but she doesn't feel comfortable with me.
... We have a great friendship, and through DB I have cut the number of fights, and disagreements.
....I feel like we fix our marriage issues the intimacy will come back, and then the need to go outside will leave.
...I know that if I tell her to stop it will just push her deeper, almost as if there was an OM or OW involved. So I want her to make a choice hopefully before a PA occurs...
insane yes I know...
Not insane at all. I think that you have done an incredible 180. You seem to understand the issues very well and and are remaining in contact, but not pushing her away from you. You are allowing her to figure out what she is missing. MWD helped me cut back on the fighting as well.
I think that if she does figure out this is her mid life crisis or whatever, and comes back to you, that you will be able to rebuild the intimacy and your relationship.
While I am not sure I would have given her permission to take a lover, it sounds like it has given her one less thing to rebel against you about.
Good luck to you.
....Hard to say. It is possible that the SSM situation is a result of someone just not having much of a sex drive. If you accept the premise that the cause is something in the relationship itself, then it is always good to work those issues out, obviously. But many times the very difference between a wife's needs and that of the husbands causes some of the issues that ultimately pushes the couple apart. In other words, it is essential to be able to differentiate between the cause and the effect, and that is not always transparent.
....My hunch is that based on your description of her, she may have used anger issues as a disguise to escape from sex and that her agenda (either consciously or unconsciously) was to take sex out of your marriage.
....My personal opinion is that abstaining from sex without mutual consent is cheating just as much as having sex outside the marriage without telling someone is cheating.
....I don't think that you need consent if someone refuses to have sex. And, I don't think that the person with no or low desire needs to want to have an outside relationship in order for you to have one.
...If you now have a relationship that you are happy with, then you have obviously made the right choice. Are you having regular sex now? Or are you resigned to the fate of having infrequent or no sex for peace in the house?
An interesting book on women and a declining libido is the book Still Sexy after All these Years. It is an interview of thousands of women across all ethnic, economic backgrounds in the US. Yes, for some women their libido does decline, for others it doesn't need to or they can find sensuality and intimacy in other ways as they mature.
For me, my wife & I did have an active sex drive when we first married, it just declined. Part of it was she withdrew emotionally from the marriage when she felt hurt. I then withdrew to work on my career to provide more for her and my children and to get praise from coworkers for my skill at work. The lack of emotional support at home drove me to the office where I got emotional support. That caused my wife to withdraw even further emotionally from me and reinforced her anger. We were in a downward spiral for a long time, until I reached my breaking point.
Affairs, would have just complicated the healing process and possible prevented the reconciliation that happened in therapy. I found that touch or physcial communication was a very powerful tool in rebuilding our relationship.
I am very happy with our current relationship. Yes we have been having sex multiple times a week; regularly for about a year. Our relationship is very strong. I honestly didn't expect to be still married to my wife by now, when we started sex therapy and marriage counseling.
I work at trying to make my wife feel loved by providing multiple acts of devotion and quality time each day. I go out of my way to do things for her and talk to her about what happened with her day and what is going to happen that is important to her later in the week. Which is what she needs to feel loved.
In return she has worked at making me feel loved.
The situation that you described seems to be a little different than what I was talking about.
Firstly, you wanted more sex in your relationship and obviously your wife respected your wishes and agreed that that kind of change would be beneficial to your marriage.
I never would suggest that someone whose wife owned her part of the problem should be required to tolerate an open relationship if she didn't want to. And you may be right that you wouldn't have reached the obviously satisfying point that you did if you pursued an outside liaison.
In my prior marriage, my wife felt that having sex more than a couple times a month was excessive and unreasonable. And even that was something that she couldn't agree to or want. It eventually came down to a couple of times a year. And when we finally did go to therapy, it was so she could fix me. At least that was her perspective.
I would have hoped it was obvious that I didn't believe that when a husband thinks he is being neglected at home that it was ok for him to unilaterally decide to open up the relationship.
I think it would be ok to open that topic for discussion with his wife as a possible solution. But the road to travel is the one both parties feel they can live with.
Incidentally, your description of how your marriage began to unwind is a familiar story. H & W begin to lead more separate lives in order to avoid conflict and their connection begins to dissolve. I congratulate you for recognizing that and working with your W to repair the damage. It would have been nice for me and our child and probably my ex if she had been similarly open to a better and more fulfilling marriage. My daughter still feels the pain, and as happily married as I am now, I do to sometimes.