Well here I sit after a long hiatus, pondering things. I simply cannot sleep tonight and I don't know why. I don't know what has made me feel so low today but I think it has been coming on for awhile.
Spent the day with my ex and her new H and my former in-laws and my children today and before you say "well duh, no wonder you feel low" I'll add that day went fine. I had no (and have had none for awhile) heart pangs over her. Although, I was reminded of the loss of family when I got home. A double whammy for me with very little family left of my own.
But it may just be that I had spent quite a bit of time this week with the kids since I was off work and they were off school and so the sudden feeling of loneliness is stronger.
It may also be that it has been kind of a rough coupla of days. The ex, for the first time in a very long time, made me feel pretty badly... twice in a matter of days - not really on purpose, I think - but among the many layers of THAT issue was the idea that she stepped into her old role nicely, informing me, when I thought I was cruising along fine, of all the mistakes I had been making. Dang! Just like being married to her again! Except, of course, I'm not.
In plain terms, I heard from favorite callers Friday - bill collectors - money has been a problem lately. I had the money, for once, having taken on a second job and just gotten paid. But the joy was they called the ex too! And I got to have that talk with her. Not about the money but about how I "seem to be having a lot of trouble getting things done lately" and how if she took the kids more I could have enough free time. All very nice and sympathetic you understand, but still making me feel horrible. I mean, am I slipping that bad?
Well, I put that to rest. I informed her that more time without my kids wasn't going to make the world a bright and shiny place and I borrowed some money from my brother to get caught up.
But wait, there's more. I had to put my dog to sleep Monday. That's always a pick me up, but just before that, the ex calls and asks me if I "would feel comfortable" at Thanksgiving. Keep in mind SHE asked ME to come a month ago.She made a point of it, two days after she married OM. I didn't know they got married until the next weekend when S4 mentioned it casually, but I found the timing interesting. Can we say guilt?
But anyway. I was feeling fine about Thanksgiving until she cleverly sowed doubt in my mind with that little crack. She mumbled something about "like at Christmas". Huh? Veteran readers will remember that at Christmas the scenario was repeated (me, ex, kids, former in-laws) except OM wasn't supposed to be OM then. He did show up, late in the evening, sneaking in the back door of her house and fading into the background. No one said a word - including me. So I am not sure what the reference was to. Except maybe it wasn't me that "felt weird". I mean I was the only one NOT lying at the time.
But that feeling passed too.
Now I just can't sleep.
Al,
Good and not so good to see you all at the same time. I'm glad I'm not the only one sitting alone tonight. And you're not alone, of course.
John Mayer just killed on Letterman with some lovely blues so very well executed. It fits for me.
My heart goes out to you. The holidays are going to suck for a while. Don't know if this is your first D. It will be my 2nd. But if you want to feel bad for someone else, consider a friend of mine.
Today would be her 34th wedding anniversary, tomorrow her late husband's birthday. The anniversary of his death, the death of her sister, and the death of her father, which all happened within about 3 years of each other, these dates all fall between now and New Years.
She's been hateful about Christmas music for years and I don't blame her.
I try to remember that it's just another day.
If you want to attach meaning to days, sounds like your x remarried on or about Halloween. If that helps.
If you need a laugh just head on over to my thread and enjoy the shenanigans that I've been involved in on and off the topic, on and off the thread.
Life is still good, I'm still standing.
I'm so sorry to read about your dog. I get steamed at mine from time to time, but I don't look forward to that event in my life. The good news is that there will be a loving creature ready to adopt you when you decide you're ready to be adopted once more.
Don't give up, man. It only gets better from here. You know that as well as any of us.
H
AL!!! You're back!!!
I'm not glad that your are feeling kind of down, but I'm glad you posted again. It's good to see you. Yes, holidays are hard. Money problems suck. The X getting married sucks no matter how much we feel "over it" because on a very superficial level it feels like they have now "won" somehow. I understand what you are feeling...and you and I both know you will feel better soon.
I'll be back to check in with you when I have more time. I am among the crazy people who are venturing out to the stores today - I don't normally but money is tight enough this year that if I can get a couple of things at half price today, it will make it all easier. So if I survive THAT, I'll talk to you soon!
Take care, Big Stud Al.
VJ
(((Al)))
I don't have any words of wisdom for you. Sometimes, things just suck and you have to get through them. But that would be the case in spite of our X's, debts, etc.
Sorry about your dog, BTDT too. Hang in there, Al. We're all here for you.
Hey BigAl, it is so nice to get an update from you. Sooooo many times I've thought about you and wondered how things were. But I didn't reach out and make that contact, sure wish I would have!
I lost one of my dogs in June, he was the best helper around here and so faithful to his people. I miss him daily. There is no way to fill that spot, but I wouldn't give up my chance to dance to avoid the pain.
You are a good man Al. Don't let anyone make you feel any different.
Hi Al,
With respect to her slipping easily her old role:
She's interacting with you in what is for her a familiar pattern. There's a certain expected back and forth between her and you. It's been played out so many times before.
But for you, it's an interaction with no upside. You're not going to learn anything new about her. You're not going to get your point across, because it didn't get across to her the 1000 times you've been down this road. No cheese at the end of this tunnel.
My XW got a notice on the car payment being late. I told her yes, it's late and it's getting paid. End of story.
If she starts up again, just tell her "I'm really busy now and have to go".
Holiday arrangements:
I'm not sure what kind of R you intend to keep with your XW. Is the "holidays together" thing really a long term solution? You should have your kids on certain holidays, and while I know going kidless on a holiday is a bummer, would it be better for you to have a holiday on your own with the kids and not her?
For example, I have my kids from Dec 20 to Dec 26 this year. They will have Christmas with me at my house. It won't involve XW or her H in any way, shape, or form. If she wants to have Christmas with them, she can do it on the 27th.
This might sound pretty categorical, and it is. Through experience, I've determined that a healthy level of interaction with my XW does not include sharing my holidays with her in any way. She generates drama all around her, and it's not a beneficial thing for me or my children. That's my boundary, at least for now. Yes, she was my W at one time. Yes, she is the mother of my children. No, I will not share holidays with her.
I guess my main point is that you might need to draw a boundary somewhere. You need to put that boundary at a place where you can live with it and be happy, where you don't feel stepped on or ambushed. If other people manage to draw a boundary in a different place with respect to holidays and the X, that's fine for them. But there's nothing to be gained by putting the boundary in the wrong place for someone else's sake, because it will lead to long-term resentment from you towards XW/OM, and that's not productive.
How does the old saying go? Good fences make good neighbors?
Hi Al,
So glad to see you back here. No words of wisdom. I'm pretty tapped out lately. The holidays do stink. Don't know how long it will take until that gets better.
Sorry about the loss of your dog, too. Lost mine last year at this same time. I still miss him. Thought it was telling that I missed my dog and not my STBXH. That remains the case today. Hmmmmmmm.
Keep putting one foot in front of the other. Tomorrow will be better.
(((((((AL)))))))
Spitfire
Hi Al
sorry things are rough, sometime it just plain stinks!
I am so sorry about your doggie, I lost my furry friend last week,and it hurt bad.
Things will look up
hugs to you
Hey lookie at all the old pals still here! Thanks all. Thanks for the support and advice. Thanks too from the new folks (or newer).
I will point out that the relationship between the X and I is really pretty good. It is quite wise to observe that the old dynamics don't change - I realized that too, after the fact. In stress times, the things you went through when you were married automatically happen again. Sometimes you forget that.
As for me, I realize that I have had a sort of low time lately for lots of reasons. Money trouble leads to worry and more importantly, at least for me, led to inactivity. Not much socializing, no working on the house, no (gasp) book buying. All those things cost money of course.
I am happy to report a little breathing room after months of this and I feel pretty perky. I am even more happy to report that the old DB instincts kicked back in too. Acting as if, doing 180's, trying new things are all excellent tonics for anything that ails ya. Dang, I forgot.
For those who it has been too long talking to (and yes WCW you DO know how to get ahold of me!) I'll give you a quick report.
Nothing new.
No just kidding. My kids are healthy and happy and growing like weeds. My relationship with XW is really quite good. I realized today that something was eating HER recently and I felt a bit of the side effects. Don't know what it is with her and don't care frankly, but if I wanted to guess I would say it was newlywed jitters (I mean, by the time it is number 3, you have to have some wee bit of doubt I would think). It is just as possible that OM or someone else fed something in her. Or maybe she is just on the...alright that's mean and sexist so I won's say it.
Meanwhile, work s good. My a$$hole of a boss left this summer and I exerted my influence to get an old and dear friend in the job. She has been doing wonderfully and I have regained some responsibilities that I had lost under the last one. If you had asked me a year ago, I would have said I don't won't new responsibilities, but now I see I was uncommonly bored at work.
I also now see that I have been lonely lately. I intend to get out more and rectify that. My old friends and several new ones have all been great, and I forgot that life is much more fun surrounded by them than home alone.
BTW, some old DB buds long gone from the boards are doing great for those who don't hear from them much. Ruthie is good. Jennbird too. I haven't looked around to see if WCB posts still but she is doing well as well. Lisa, I see, is keeping you informed.
I think I am going to mastermind a New Year's Eve Party at my house this year. It is my new idea to help shake things up. I'll check with my friends next week and see how booked everyone might be, but if there is interest, I am going for it.
I guess there is not much else. To all my old pals, call, e-mail or whatever whenever. I always love to hear from you (and yeah, I know, those things work both ways).
Hey Big Al, I'm thinking holidays are overrated. Passed the one year anniversary of D, but this is year #2 holiday wise, and I still get teary eyed, etc. I think my mom's death on 11/10 (we were not close) followed by XFIL's death about three hours later on 11/10 (we were close) has exacerbated my down feelings about "holidays."
Yesterday, I did some re-eval and wrote some birthday goals for the upcoming year and that cheered me up.
Hope you are feeling better today. Glad to hear work is going well...one less stressor.
((((Al)))))
Glad to see you are feeling better. I was concerned when I read your last post. Don't stay gone so long the next time.
Love,Lisa
BigAl,
You were one of the first sitchs I read, even if the circumstances were much, much different. It's good to hear from you and I'm glad that you were able to show such class during turkey day.
I have one question. What happened to Bathseeba?
OTB
Thanks OTB. That's a darn good question. I have been thinking lately that a year a go, I seemed, in some ways, in better shape than I am in now. I think I got another stress hit (finances) which snuck up on me and I abandoned DB principles when it happened, climbed back in my shell as it were. I miss the fun BigAl from a year ago. I am going to get him back.
Just a quick update. Last night I went to the kids Christmas show at their school. Just me, XW, her new H (former OM), X-MIL and X-SIL. It was great to see the kids in the show of course and sucky to see XW and OM play at being a couple (and OM play at being a dad). They did this a LOT more than at Thanksgiving. Maybe because the situation was more "intimate". I have never seen XW laugh and smile so much, and I must say it depressed the hell out of me until this a.m. when it dawned on me that maybe there was a bit of over acting going on. Who knows? I don't.
Anyway, I still make OM feel uncomfortable, which is cool. He does try to initiate conversations with me and I answer like a normal human being, but I apparently do a good job of projecting hidden thoughts because he generally turns tail and hides behind XW's skirts (so to speak).
And if I may be allowed...I say GOOD. Hope it haunts the bastard for the rest of his life.
Hey, I have needed to let that one out for a looong time.
Gotta go and get the kids to school.
Good to hear things are picking up for you then. I know what it's like with financial pressure, especially lately since I got laid off, and it sure does take a toll.
Hmmm....find that happy BigAl and the ladies will come flocking back waiting on you with baited breath (funny saying that, who would want someone whose breath smells like bait anyway?)
Keep in touch. There are a lot of guys in going through what you are and they could sure use some encouragement and words of knowledge.
Now, go find Bathseeba's twin, but much naughtier, sister Lillith and spin the ladies a yarn!
HI Al
I miss the fun BigAl from a year ago. Me too! I hope things pick up for you soon.
I think you are right about the over acting. As I recall, isn't OM a mere youngin himself? Of course he's uncomfortable around you. He should be!
I'm glad you are so involved in your kids'lives. Keep up the good work!
Better things are coming for all of us in 2007.
Merry Christmas and all that.
Spitty
YAY AL!!!! You're too great of a guy to be down in the dumps for long!!! Seriously, I'm glad things seem to be on the upswing for you. We miss you. Oh yeah, we miss Bathsheba too.....Now, about that Lilith????
Hi Big Al...I know exactly what you mean - for whatever reason, I also think in some ways I was doing better mentally a year ago...but in many ways, we are now dealing with the reality and long-term aftermath of divorce. I think that slowly, this whole experience is being woven into our lives, and sometimes it feels better than others. Holidays are difficult, but you and I both know that overall, we will thrive!
Take care, Big Stud Al...finish up all that grading and then enjoy your holiday break!
VJ
Merry Christmas to All!
I went back to my thread one year ago today thinking that I could demonstrate how much better things were a year later and thereby disperse the myth we have been telling around Surviving this week about how things were not really different.
Dangit, it seemed like a good idea. But the short version is the only difference between this year and last is that she is married to him now...Well, sorta, anyway.
I got the time and despite feeling near exhausted half an hour ago, I have the energy too so here we go.
Part I "I've been trying to get down to the heart of the matter..."
You know how early on you kept waiting for the hurt to subside? You would go along, feeling ok but wary that you were going to dissolve into goo for no damn reason at any moment. Every once and awhile, I would plumb the depths of my feelings, like touching the sore spot with your finger just to see if it still hurts. After awhile, that feeling goes, and it gets replaced with some other, less sharp but no less annoying, feeling. The one that allows us to be bitter and divorced.
Lately I have been thinking that I am not letting go of it all as well as I should be. I won't recount how or why. I'll just say I have been carrying a load that is getting heavy. I have a huge pack strapped to my back that isn't mine and doesn't have anything friggen in it. Why don't I just dump it on the side of the road and move on? Seems like that blinkin' blinkin' straps have been stuck, and it just dawned on me recently that I have a knife and I could just cut it free. Up till now, I think have been kinda figuring I had to cut my arm off to get away, but the strap would be a lot less painful.
So letting go of the past may the top agenda item in 2007. I need to figure out how, but to finish the quote above
"I think it's about forgiveness"
Part II "I got divorced and all I got was this lousy t-shirt"
A year ago, I would have said that a deep and meaningful insight into the relationships between men and women was the most positive thing I gained from this experience. That, and some knowledge about depression, grief, etc. I felt (and still feel) that I was able to be a helpful friend to others in need because I had this insight. But what has it done for me lately?
Well a coupla things. One of which just dawned on me today (or yesterday at this point). I sat at the ex's with some ex-in-laws for Christmas Eve and they were talking about...depression go figure...and their own bouts with it. They were telling one of their number that they thought he should consider if he was suffering from depression and also sharing that they had suffered from it and had been treated for it. This was well known for one person talking and a big, big surprise from the other. The person they told seemed to be somewhat convinced that they had a point, which was another big surprise.
But what I learned more than anything was that it is very, very true that we can be so sucked into our own horrors that we imagine everyone else, who is not suffering from our exact same problem, must be feeling wonderfully.
Wrong. Lots of things hit us in life. Lots of people are hurting out there. I have told myself that I could stand to show a little more friggen compassion to my fellow human beings and not just went it benefits me.
Which brings me to....
Part III "Is that your love life in your pocket or are you just glad to see me?"
I call this one "The Babysitter Problem". A couple months ago, the babysitter for my kids, a woman I have known nearly ten years, a beautiful woman with an extremely sweet disposition, began to confide in me about the dramatic downturn in her second marriage. Lots of problems are going on and she has WAW painted all over her in big, neon pink letters and her husband is blazing new trails in field of shoving your wife away as hard as you can. Well, you say to yourself, she has come tot hte right place. Who better than the insightful and experienced BigAl to turn to when this situation arises, right? Wrong! Turns out, BigAL is a selfish prick, (I know, I know...gasp!)
In what way is he a prick? You may ask. In the way that instead of training her in the ancient art of DB'ing, BigAl just commisserates and offers sympathy because...and here is the kicker...he's "interested".
He is also smart enough to see an OM role with his name on it in the future if he doesn't watch out so he stays away. Except, on occasion, when she really, really needs to talk and then he listens, sympathetically for 10 or 15 minutes at a time, in a room filled with toddlers and therefore totally safe.
Thing is, I like it. I like being turned to. I also liked the unexpressed connection going on. And I was growing in my dislike of her spouse. I mean, why can't he see what is going on? How can he be so clueless...oh crap, wait a minute. Anybody been here before? Maybe playing the role of the clueless spouse?
So for the thousandth time, I have told myself to stay out of it. I have stayed out of it really. We are talking maybe 4 or 5 convos very brief in duration, but I can smell her thoughts. I DID learn in the last year and a half that my instincts about what a woman is leaving unsaid to me are right even if I don't believe it. SO her status for me is rather like that of say, Jennifer Ansiton, a great dream but one that is not smart to try to make into a reality.
Ok, now I am getting tired, so I leave you with this....
The ex is getting fat, the ex is getting fat, the ex is getting fat..nah, nah, nah, nah (you know the tune). And in 15 years when OM is my age he is going to be one big ole chunk of lard. LOL! (oh to add irony to it, my 10 pound or so weight gain was one of the ex's pet peeves when were married. Sorry porky baby. I lost mine. What happened to you?)
Merry Christmas!!!!
Merry Christmas, Al!!!
I agree with so much of your post...except that you are a selfish prick. You know I don't believe that for a minute. But this is the point I will choose to comment on for now...
Quote:
The ex is getting fat, the ex is getting fat, the ex is getting fat..nah, nah, nah, nah
Oh, yeah... I love this. In my case, it's
...the OW is getting fat...the OW is getting fat...HA! And my XH didn't like my 15 lb weight gain...but now I've stayed 15 lbs lighter and am in the best shape I've ever been in. And she has fat legs and a big butt. Started wearing those big shirts and shapeless sweaters (and XH had surgery, so she's not pregnant). When my neighbors finally got a glimpse of her this weekend, as she unloaded my kids, they told me they were totally unimpressed with her. As my friend's husband said..."he left YOU for HER???!!!" I love my neighbors!
I'll catch up with you more later, Big Al. Right now, I'll rejoice in the weight gain of the X's and OP's.
Merry Christmas!
VJ
Hahahahahahaha, VJ!
I was thinking the same thing but I didn't want to be the first to rejoice in OW's (now THE woman) bountiful shape. My XH's OW has always been fatter than me (after the grief diet) and call me childish but I relish the fact that she has a giant a$$ and big legs that she tries so daintily to stuff into her baby pink two piece swim suit. Nice picture, eh?
Merry Christmas, Al!
Hugs, GG
Post Christmas Wrap Up
Time for a little Monday morning quarterbacking re Christmas.
Christmas day was not too bad really. The kids stayed Christmas Eve and were up and did the presents thing at my place. Their mother and OM (Mr. XW now) came and got them at about 11. I called all my relatives (99% of whom live far away) and wished them a Merry Christmas. My brother called and invited me to his house (he lives about 1/2 hour away) and after some sitting around, I decided that the wise man choses company on Christmas and not solitude, so I went.
My father lives with my brother and is in very poor health, an invalid basically, and I speculated yesterday that perhaps I avoid them sometimes because it's so hard to see him like that. Shallow and weak I know. I also remembered yesterday that my mother died when I was a teen the week after Christmas and I really need to make sure I don't turn that holiday into something depressing. I felt a little down once or twice at my brother's but really did well by and large. Came home and managed to go to sleep like a human being, which was good considering XW was dropping the kids off at 7:30 am on her way to work. We had a good day today, and I am content.
But back to the analysis. I noticed something this Christmas. More than any time since the big D, the XW seems less like someone I knew so well and more like just someone. Her looks have changed a bit. Since she has married OM, she has decided (as she did when she married me) that she was safe in chopping all her hair off. She has put on quite a few pounds and he's not exactly svelte for 26 either so they look like two pudgy people that are acquaintances rather than the woman I loved and the bastard who stole her from me. Interesting.
I even considered, as I drifted off to sleep last night, asking them to dinner tonight since they would be picking the kids up about that time. But I decided against it today. Or more accurately, I forgot about it until just now.
Anyway, I am trying hard to let it go this week and I feel like it might be working. I know that it will take some effort, but it is about dang time. Strange to say, I have never been able to kick in the hate and anger very much so it's not that I am letting go. More like resentment I think.
And while I am babbling, let me add this one that has been floating in my head since Friday (and No, it is not about XW)....
Just for a moment
Her skin was white, like ivory, smooth as though it had been carefulyl crafted that way. Her blonde hair was tied back behind her head, straight and fine, framing her face and making her big dark eyes seem bigger. She wore black shorts and a black shirt that were nothing special in themselves but which set off her ivory skin.
Although she was beautiful, in a way she represented nothing I normally am drawn to in a woman. She was not buxom or voluptuous. Her hair was golden not raven black. Her mannerisms were quiet, almost apologetic certainly not confident and aggresive. But you could tell she was strong too. You would be happy to rescue her whenever she needed, to play the all knowing protector, but she didn't emanate that sort of neediness.
But it was really her skin. Not that skin normally attracts me either, at least beyond the obvious. Her shirt hugged her neck, her shorts were a modest length. It was not the skin on the top of her breasts or the skin along the backs of her thighs that had the effect. Instead it was just the softness, the touchability of it. She was like a simple diamond in a modest setting. Not garish and obvious but still beautiful, drawing the eye.
Her second hug lingered, momentarily, no more than a heartbeat longer. Just long enough for each of us to murmer something that held no meaning really, considering the words at face value but something none the less.
When I left, I looked back at her. Her eyes were dark. They shined with a light, an effluence reached out from them and entered into my eyes, taking the course through my body that bypasses the brain and leads straight to the soul.
It's strength lifed me up to a place I had forgotten about lately. I needed a pen and paper and a moment and I would have written words that could burn through your heart, leaving a scar that would last an enternity. But the moment left me before I did. But her skin stayed in my mind, a secret smile with me the rest of the day. The promise of something is so often sweeter than the thing itself, but only if we really believe the promise will be fulfilled.
And just when WILL you finish that best-selling novel you have inside you, Al?
Ellie
Hey Al, good to see you're still out there with those insights into life's twists. We've traveled much the same path, you and I.
Finances are a bummer; got the airplane up for sale now. Just can't afford the expense and could use the money. Had it for 20 years and hate to see it go
. Girlfriend of 9 months just told me she thinks we should be dating other people - damn! D again!
I seemed to take it pretty well and I'm not sure if that means I didn't really have strong feelings for her (I thought I did
) or I have my defences ready at a moments notice. Yeah, my friend, you are wise to be careful with your babysitter. I know you see where that could lead.
Spent the weekend with my kids and they were great to have around. Pi$$es me off that I'm being cheated out of the daily interaction with them. Saw XW and OM/new hubby outside their house when I dropped my boys off. She was still trim but her face has seemed to have aged 10 years in the last 10 months. He still looks like a penguin and now they are both smokers. She quit years ago, he never did so now they both do it.
I've been working this new job for 6 months now, many weeks I'm working 6-1/2 days. Hmmmm, do you suppose that has helped screw up my latest relationship? I signed up to do a start-up of a new plant - empty concrete floor when I walked in the building 6 months ago. Now we're in production but so far behind schedule we may never catch up. We were 6 months late when we started and we're still way behind. I'm getting too old for this stuff, but God I love the fight.
You keep writing and I'll keep manufacturing and maybe some day we can kick back and see a task well done
.
Hey Ellie and AV8R. I sort of touch and go with the writing. The key is probably some discipline with it. Maybe that's a goal for 2007.
AV8TR, sorry things are rough although you sound positive and hopeful and that is the key after all.
I just realized at 9:30 pm that today would have been my anniversary. I call that progress. No dwelling...I almost forgot, and when I remembered, no biggie. Cool.
Whoops. Kid interruptions. I guess I will cut the post short!
Dude! If you hadn't reminded me I might totally have spaced off that tomorrow is my anniversary (I guess it counts since I'm still married, though she's supposed to be filing any day now).
I know I'm making progress because I'm pretty much hoping that XW and OM get married. She's easier to deal with when she's happy and I don't want her feeling my post-M life is better than hers. Outside of the fact that I can't manage to keep on top of keeping the house straightened and in good repair, I'm pretty happy with life at the moment. I got (my kids) Guitar Hero for the PS/2 for Christmas and have been having fun since I got the boys back Tuesday evening.
So anyway, Al, Happy Un-iversary! I'll celebrate mine tomorrow with a glass of my favorite cheap wine and a silent toast to XW who's out-of-town with OW for the weekend, God bless 'em. Hope she doesn't pi$$ him off.
hey Al some of the same feelings here too.I seem to feel better until I hear from or see the XW. Then I slide. I am medicated pretty well now. I feel like I am neither high or low, prtetty contect to sit and stare I guess. Since before xmas eve I felt a cry coming on but it wouldn't come out. Last night it ALL came out. I cried so hard my chest muscles are still sore.
I love having myt daughter on the weekends, but in a way she reminds me of the life I no longer have. Sometimes my daughter can caused me to slide.
I feel for ya.
Hey Big Al . . . mine might be a name you remember from the past . . . Bonkers . . . Bonks. I decided to check in tonight. CONGRATS BTW on the big step of almost forgetting about your anniversary. Really . . . that's big.
I'll have to catch up on your thread as well as others I remember. WHAT a lot of time I spent on this board. Kept me semi-sane . . .
I wish you ONLY the BEST!
Bonkers
Burg . . . I had posted to Big Al and then got down to your message. I have to tell you . . . your signature at the end actually stunned me. I read it . . . and then slowly . . . reread it. GOOD WORK!
Well, you know guys, it kinda evens out eventually, but not in any real big hurry, dangit. I just unleashed my kids on XW and OM (and by the way BB, I believe you meant OM and not OW on your post unless something big has happened that I missed). XW dearly loves to tell me what she and OM are up to. I think she sees it as keeping me informed, but she had to tell me she and OM are going up to visit friends out of town on NYE. The friends in question are the ones whose wedding she and OM went to when WE were still married and not separated. They spent the night (separately of course...oh geeze, I crack myself up). I wonder how the newlyweds think about the whole "Gee it was at our wedding when OM and XW were here last but then she was married to someone else and now she's married to him" I suspect there is some uncomfortable thoughts there about their own chances at marital bliss.
Meanwhile, I doing pretty well. Had the kids for a few days. I was sick as heck Thurs. but the boys were good and we all slept like 12 hours that night, and I recovered. My money situation has eased a bit. I'm not out of the woods yet, but I only have to cut down a few thousand more trees to get there.
At least I have NYE plans. A friend from work is having a party which will be fun. Then it is back to the grindstone on Tuesday. XW and OM are going out of town a week after that. I, of course, will watch the kids. Somedays I wish she would get knocked up again so they would be tied down permanently, but then again, nah...Anyway, I took the opportunity to tell her I will have to arrange with her mom to watch them on one day because I have to be on TV (just a little news interview for a work thing, but what the heck).
I HAVE finally figured out that maybe this whole being alone thing may not be the smartest route to take. I have also realized something about potential mates. I prefer someone I kind of already know. I don't relish meeting someone out of the blue and trying to evaluate our compatibility. Very rarely have I ever gone out with someone who I didn't already know a little. A new thought for me and one I will keep in mind.
"M'appari tutt' amor"
...sorry, opera on the CD player.
Anyway, it is going to be a very busy 2007 for me so far, at least work related. Lots of things on the list. I am excited, as always, by that. Although some of it (a small some of it) is stuff I don't want to do, most of it is stuff I really am interested in. I hope to make this term a great one class wise. Seems as though I like it when I am busy, but I try to avoid being busy a much as I can.
Strange but true.
Hey Al, I was just thinking about you the other day. I thought you were gone for good and didn't even think of looking for you here. Hi.
(Bunch of stuff you don't need to hear)
Gosh, I didn't mean to sound so preachy. I just deleted all, and maybe I'll take it over to my own thread and leave you in peace...
Just wanted to say Hi and tell you I missed your smiling face around here. B
Hi there Al -
Glad to hear you are doing well and going to be a TV star at that! What a way to start out 2007!
Here's to a wonderful 2007! May it bring us all a new hope.
Cheers!!!
WCB
I feel like progress tonight. Went to a b-day party at x-inlaws and felt, for the first time, at peace with XW abnd OM there together. Not a pang of anything. Yahoo! Hope it lasts.
Glad to hear that BigAl. You are much more evolved than I. I don't know how I would feel sitting across the table from H and ow. Hopefully I have about 20 years before weddings force me into that
B (Mel)
Hey all. Long time no post. I thought it may be time though. I guess this is where I provide an update on what's happening with me.
Not much.
Ok, ok. You knew there was more to it than that. Let me think. First of all, XW. About XW and OM (Mr. XW since October), there is not much to say. They're married. I'm not. We have trade the kids back and forth and the kids seem fine with it. We jointly attend kid functions (school plays, ball games some X-In Law parties when I am invited) and behave like normal folks. I guess I saw a hint of how "normal" it was last weekend when XW (and her new spouse) missed the kids ballgames due to work. X-SIL started to make an observation about XW missing to me in the way she would normally have many moons ago. Normal. Of course, she caught herself before she went too far. BigAl is not exactly in the family bitch-session loop anymore. Funny thing is, X-In Law's seemed to be honked at XW for working that day but it never dawned on me that it was a problem. Ah well.
As for the kids. They're good. Growing up, of course. The youngest (S5 now, yikes, he was S3 when I started posting here) has developed a bit of a post-toddler rebellious streak but nothing beyond normal. S8 (soon to be 9, yikes again) is doing well.
As for me. I'm fine. Working, going to school (as finances permit) and struggling with money. Normal stuff. Love life is still pretty much a big nothing. I found some interesting stuff about me in the romance department the last few months as part of trying to be sympathetic with my babysitter who is in deep marital difficulties. She and her H har having troubles and she has confided in me several times. It is a classic picture that all of us here could recite with our eyes closed. Anyways, they are still working on it, but I realized how much I was enjoying the intimacy associated with long heart-to-hearts with her and it confused me a bit for awhile. I have, I think, recognized that (a)I enjoyed it, in part, because I lacked any sort of relationships with female types that were that close (b)I had always found her attractive. I knew, fortunately, that this is a bad combo when the person in question is married and trying to fix her problems so I have been very, very careful and more standoffish than I would be. It has alerted me that, much as I would prefer it otherwise, I may not spend the rest of my life in a monkish existence. I am prepared to suggest a date to a candidate that I run across that strikes me as potential. Unfortunately, all the ones I have met recently are all married (dangit).
But by and large, I am good. I have had hibernation syndrom during February with the foul weather, but fortunately I have kids to drag me out when I feel like I holing up (although sledding can get dang cold). I have also realized that I had a few lingereing issues that I was supressing and letting squirt out in inappropriate ways so I have addressed those too.
So what the heck is everyone else up to?
Oh, BTW SnS, Jennbird, ruthie and the gang are good
Hey Al! It's great to hear from you; thanks for the update. Now quit pondering and go on a friggin' date so we can *really* get a story out of you.
And hey, here's a thread that's right down your alley, started by an astronomy professor, no less:
Classical music and such
Al,
Normal life can be good in its own way. It beats the heck out of going through divorce, doesn't it?
I am prepared to suggest a date to a candidate that I run across that strikes me as potential. Unfortunately, all the ones I have met recently are all married (dangit).
What were those famous words a politician used? "I feel your pain."
Thanks,
Joe
Hi bigAl,
Wow! Ages since we heard from you. Thanks for the update. You sound pretty good. Don't worry. Some hot Single woman will cross your path when you least expect it!
Spring is coming!
Spitty
Hi Al,
Nice to see you posting again. Oh and February is a great month for hibernating.
I thoroughly believe that "good things come to those who wait". How many people do you know that rushed into a relationship because they were lonely? They never work out. That's another reason why I think that hibernating is good, if we can be alone with ourself and be happy, then maybe we're ready to try again. For so long after the bomb we are just shells of the people we were, so getting to know who we really are and not who we were told we were at the end of our marriage is such s gift. It's a growing experience and a journey that no one else can take for us.
Take care of yourself........
Love,
Bethie
Hi Big Al! Good to hear from you, as always! Figures you post during the couple of days I didn't get here...I'm glad things are going well for you and that you know they will get even better.
I'll post an update sometime soon...until then, take care
VJ
Hey there bigAL
here I sit 1052pm I should be in bed but I thought I would finally look on here , its been like forever since I was on these boards.......
catch you soon...... I must update my thread.....soon
hugs to you
ruth
Well thanks all. Lest I sound too disappointed by a lack of love life, let me hasten to say that getting to know myself and making some progress with me seems like a good thing. I have realized (often) that every step in that direction is a step towards a good relationship down the road.
And you're right BethM, it's Feb.
Hey Al, just looking up some old friends. Glad to hear that you're feeling good.
Hey all, I've been thinking today (no really, it's true). Since my thinking has been centered on marriage, divorce and what not I thought you folks may the best group to "discuss" it with. But first, a bit of a background concerning what has caused me to think.
Case Nuber 1
Old friends of mine are having marital difficulty. They have been married about five years. Lately, he (from her side of the discussion) has been cranky and short-tempered. His grouchiness reached such levels that it exasperated her to the point that she (I find out a week later), finally took the step of asking him to move out for awhile. After a day or two of not speaking, they sat down and talked it out and he (again from her account) is "much better now".
These two are very different (as in different from most folks you know not from each other) people who are both in their 50's and both have been married before with horrific results (physical abuse, attempts on their lives, etc.). Life changed for them about 6 months ago when he landed a new job. He is from another country and has had trouble (despite college degrees, a good work ethic and strong technical knowledge) landing a job so he has not been working during their marriage up until now.
Case Number 2
"The Sitter" A dear friend, the babysitter (who I will admit confuses me because of my own tendencies to find her attractive) is in her second marriage, I believe about 4 years in. His sons (20, 18 and 13) moved in with them about 6 months ago after their mom kicked them out due to their being, well "juvenile delinquents" would be the best description.
The sons moved into their 3 bedroom home which already housed her 2 children (14 and 9) and their new daughter (2) and evicted the younger children from their rooms and began behaving in just the way one would expect from young men of that mind set. None of them have jobs, cars or much ambition in life The middleson was expelled from high school and the youngest is heartbeat away from it. They "live" during the day in her and her H's bedroom, camped in front of the TV.
The sitter, at her wits end, begs and pleads with her H for them to move out. Her H insists that she would not feel that way if it were her children and then extends the point by disliking her children intensely and, frankly, being ugly to them. Add to this that (a) he has strong views about alcohol and refuses any in their house (except for the nightly beer binges of his 3 sons) acusing her of something horrific if she proposes having a beer (b)he has a developing gambling addiction that seems to be taking over and (c)her 14 year old daughter is traveling the road of the troublesome teen, skipping school and so forth and finally (d)he thinks that she is having/has had an affair.
In her venting to me, she repeatedly asks "what she should do" the context of the question being really "should I get divorced?" which, of course, is exactly what her mother her friends (and even my ex who is her friend too) advise her to do. I am completly paralyzed in answering because I struggle between not advocating divorce and not wanting her life to be so bad. I get a weekly update (and sometimes more) of the problems and provide the shoulder to cry on all the while scared to death that I will become in name or fact the OM if I don't watch out.
So my wise fellow DB'ers , into each marriage, conflict must fall. We all know that if we can find the ways to deal with this conflict, we become happier, stronger couples and in some ways, the process of dealing with it is unique to each marriage. But what the heck do I do, short of listening and providing support to help that process with these friends? Or is there anything? Also, is there a point at which divorce is the answer?
I struggle because on this forum, I often felt I could be of some help to people and I want to be that to these people too but I don't know any answers all of sudden. That's so not like me
Al,
I DO think that in some cases, D is the only/best solution and in case #2, that's the option I would choose. I think it would behoove you to tell BOTH couples to try counseling. If the H's won't agree then only 1 person seems to care enough about the M to save it. As we all know, that doesn't work.
Big Al - The answer is very simple - quit being the shoulder all these women cry on!!!!!! You KNOW it's dangerous and inappropriate!!!
The first couple - who knows? You don't know what all the dynamics of their R are. She gave him a wake-up call and he woke up. Hope it sticks.
The second sitch - sounds like an awful mess - but a mess the people involved made themselves. Her H didn't suddenly become this way - the signs were surely there all along, yet she chose to make a baby with him. She knew he had other kids and that he was a bad parent to them - yet she chose to make a baby with him. She participated in getting herself into this mess, she's not an innocent victim. And the fact that she keeps asking what she should do implies to me that she doesn't want to take responsibility for THAT choice either.
And yes, her H is a bad parent - letting those boys loaf around because he wants to make up to them is robbing them of their manhood. An 18 and 20 year old with no jobs????
The best thing she could do is remind her H that it's his job as a parent to help them become self- sufficient - and he's not doing that job. She needs to offer constructive advice, not just bitch about his kids.
Ellie
Whoo hoo! I knew I would get feedback.
Yep, Jill. You are right. Two people have to work at it, not just one. Sounds to me that in case #2 it is just one, but not exactly because I see his reaching out too.
And Ellie! Thanks for the dose of rationality. You are correct in many ways. I guess MY problem would be that I'd like to be wise and useful to these folks, but practically speaking...I probably can't. 'Would that the world worked completly on a rational basis. Choices would be much easier that way.
Case #1 is as you say, a wake up call situation and that's the way it is seen by the couple BUT I worry about a their developing a better system than that. WE all know that the wake up and the behaviour change is not that normally lasts long term.
Case #2 You are right again in that their having a baby was not a good plan and that she doesn't want to take the responsibility for ending things, but...I also think she is trapped in a dilemma we all are familiar with, what is best, ending an R or persevering? I guess I side with Jill, it takes two to persevere.
But don't worry, I stay well away from dangerous and inappropriate ground.
Al,
Definitely try to tone down the support for babysitter. You may inadvertantly contribute to the WAW thoughts just by being a kind understanding guy. You will give her something her H isn't.
I want to address case#2. That is a very tough one. I think it's wrong of the wife to push for her H to make the kids leave. She's the one that will lose that struggle. The kids may be juvenile delinquents, but they are his kids. He'll just grow to resent her rather than take her side. He has a point when he says, "you wouldn't ask your own kids to move out". So the kids are directionless. How about she encourages him to help his kids find a direction. How about being supportive of this. If he's unwilling to do anything about them then she has only two choices...accept it or move out. I don't think the answer is going to your H and saying, "these kids are messing up our marriage so ask them to leave", which is the same as saying, "them or me".
The step-family thing is so hard. I personally wish I could get a better handle on it myself. There is always room for improvement. I do think that she should address the treatment of her kids though. I don't have any suggestions about that. Maybe suggest the book, "Step by Stepparenting" or something. Sorry...I struggle with this area myself.
Al,
Case #1 - Could you present them with a copy of DB or DR? Reading this together could help to preserve the communication they have at this time. Also I would agree that MC would be great in this situation. I would encourage them now while things are going well.
Case #2 - My first concern is for W's 14yo and 9yo and their 2yo. W needs to set clear boundaries and expectations. This needs to be done (as we all know) w/o begging, pleading, nagging, etc. If her H does not choose to change the sitch with his S's W needs to have them leave or remove herself and her kids/their child from this harmful environment. I hope you can persuade her to go to C. The C should lead her down this path not you. Even in this case giving her a copy of DR/DB may help to give W the tools she needs to change how she is requesting help from her H. But I do think this should done concurrently with seing a C. I think in this sitch, if the H is not receptive, separating with the intent of enforcing boundaries and changing the dynamics all within the context of the M would be best. I have come to understand that an S can be a use method of saving an M. Case #1 is a good example.
You have to understand that the step-family is a whole new dynamic. I have a feeling that it will end with her removing herself from this because she won't see much progress. Anyone with kids ask yourself, "would I ask my own kids to leave because my new spouse of a couple years wants me to boot them?" It isn't going to happen. They'll need to learn to get some boundaries in place, and that takes the cooperation of the father.
Hey guys, thanks for the advice. I did pass along DB to Case #1, BTW. I think they are in pretty good shape.
JM has his point for Case #2. It. as it stands, is a no-winner. I did suggest that the problem is deeper than just the step kids, and I believe it is. Some tools for addressing that problem and others that come along are their best hope for them long term methinks, but they seem to have zero tools for dealing with anything. She complains. He withdraws. They both scream. He threatens to move out. She loses it about everyday things.
But I am not a professional by any means, and professional help could be of great benefit. Case #1 agreed to C as part of their discussions after the blow up. In Case #2, the wife has been pushing C, the H refuses (saying that it won't help because "he is right"). They are such a classic WAS/LBS pair that it is scary.
As for me, I am acutely aware of being more the source of the problem than the cure for Case 2 (not Case 1, just because the dynamics are hugely different all around). Believe me, I keep my distance, much more than is natural for me.
And stepkids have to be hard. I think my Ex has managed pretty well (as far as I know) mostly because he has no kids, he is young and in his first marriage and the kids know him (and knew him) failry well. Plus, since we all repeat the same relationship patterns, he (like moi) is largely submissive in the marriage and what she says, goes. Hopefully (for them), that dynamic changes to something more healthy as time goes on rather than degenerating as it did for the two of us.
On my own front, BTW, ex and I agreed to a new visitation schedule which she suggested in the interest of better stability and which I agreed to, after careful consideration, for the same reason. With both of the kids at school age now, a school week in the same house is much easier, and since I ultimately still see them as much, I don't mind. I do reset her implication (which was never overt) that I am somehow less capable of keeping their school week in line than she is (she describes it as the difficuly of doing it all by myself...something indicative of much of the difference between us) but I am still a very active part of their lives. Also, ex and I are civil and cooperative which saves everyone a lot of wear and tear. Amazing what distance can do for that process.
I know many ex's seem to have the blind need to continue to yank chains, and I never understood why. Or maybe I understand why but find it strange that they don't. Hmmm. Then again, I am sure my dynamic will change greatly if and when I have a significant other in my life too.
I am sure my dynamic will change greatly if and when I have a significant other in my life too.
You can bet money on that! Your ex is gonna go apeshit, I suspect. Funny how they never realize that if THEY have someone new, that means YOU will eventually have someone new too. I'm betting she hasn't realized what it will be like when the kids have a "new mommy".
Geez, you should run right out right now and pick up a woman just so we can see ex's reaction!
Ellie
Hi Al...just a hello and good to hear from you. You know what you need to do and I know you are just the man to handle it. Happy Easter!
VJ
All right since you put your question out there, I am going to pose one back to you. I thought VJ might ask it since it appears her XH and his OW had a similar rescuer relationship.
What is so d*mn attractive about a woman that makes bad decisions, cannot figure out how to manage her bad decisions, makes more bad decisions, and then looks to others to tell her what to do? I know not all men are attracted to women like this but since you seem to be in a position where you ARE attracted to this woman I have to ask.
I assume the number one answer is that she must be physically attractive. And number two is that it must look or at least be passed off as horrible luck and something she had no control over. She is just an innocent bystander in her own life. She is a woman that IF things fell into place for her she would have a great life.
Now to be a bit cruel. What makes you think that if this kind of woman does get involved with a great, kind, smart, loyal loving guy she will not get bored out of her mind because she actually LOVES the drama that goes along with the bad decisions she makes? She wants to be able to talk to friends and family at length about this great trouble in her life. She likes the uproar around her and all the drama it entails.
Seriously I see wonderful beautiful women around me, including VJ and Jenn and MJ from SSM, who could play the victim card so easily. But they do not. Are they less appealing to some men because of that aversion to being the victim? I KNOW the opposite is true that there are men that will find them MORE attractive because of this stance.
Just curious...
Fearless asks some good questions...I don't understand why that kind of woman is attractive to some men. I would think the constant rescuing would get old. But then, "my way" of always trying to be the strong one, and to handle whatever I needed to handle didn't exactly endear me to XH! There must be a balance somewhere...
Al, I think you already know that any involvement with this woman right now would be a very bad idea. The fact that you find yourself attracted to her complicates things, but remember that an attraction does NOT mean she is a good match for you or would be an asset to your life! And you have learned enough to know that you need to look beyond the initial attraction.
I'm not even convinced that it's this specific woman that is so appealing to you...I think it's the feeling of being needed and important to a woman again. She's turning to you for advice and it feels good! Attention from an attractive woman can seem to heal a lot of the damage caused by your XW's rejection...but this isn't the woman you need right now. And like I said, I think you already realize that.
OK, now it's time to eat too many chocolate bunnies and try to find those *$#% plastic eggs in the snow. At least this year, we won't worry about the chocolate melting in the sun!
VJ
VJ,
I think you know I am not trying to be difficult or attacking. I am purely curious about the context in which Al sees this woman. My post wasn't meant to be as pointed at Al it came across. I don't even know if he usually has a rescuer tendency. I think the desire to be wanted and needed is normal and, between 2 healthy individuals, is a good thing.
I'm not even convinced that it's this specific woman that is so appealing to you...I think it's the feeling of being needed and important to a woman again. She's turning to you for advice and it feels good!
I think the red flag I felt with Al's friend is not so much that she talks to him about her problems or even asks advice although both are playing with fire a bit. It was more that she is even more direct:
In her venting to me, she repeatedly asks "what she should do" the context of the question being really "should I get divorced?"
This is more than asking his opinion this is getting his guidance. Is it really up to him (or her family or other friends) whether she stays or leaves? My concern is that Al does not seem to see her behavior throughout all of this as troublesome or problematic. Does he think the OM in his case felt the same toward his XW? Al's XW probably talked to him about all the problems in her marriage and how alone, frustrated, etc. that she was.
Anyway I know that Al recognizes what he is feeling and what he needs to do. My point was more to ask if he recognized the issue of this woman. While he has felt an attraction to her does he realize that she MAY be doing this on purpose (consciously or not)? Does he really see her as a true "victim" in this case?
I thought it might help him to see her in a different light. Although perhaps he will feel more drawn to rescue her now that she has been "attacked" by someone else.
Fearless -
I do think you have this woman pegged. I had the same feeling about the sitch.
As to why men are drawn to that? (And Al, I'm giving you credit for being smarter than that since you posted about it, so I'm not necessarily talking about you here). I often think of a roommate I had in college - let's call her Molly.
Everyone in the house was a student except Molly. She was a friend of one of the other roommates. She worked as a waitress and partied, basically. She somehow had perfected the art of getting others to do things for her. Her helpless act was SO effective. She even got away with paying her share of household bills late, even though SHE had a full-time job and made way more money than what us poor students were living on! Everybody just gave her a pass on things.
I remember going out with her one night to a comedy club (she very briefly dated Robin Williams before he was famous.) Going with her always made me feel invisible, even though I'd say we were very equal in the looks department; I probably was even a little better looking. But she had a way of playing helpless and getting guys to assist her that just sucked them in like moths to a flame, whereas it just never would even occur to me to ask for help with things I could do myself.
Being around her really opened my eyes to how women manipulate men, and how blind men are to that process.
(Robin Williams was delightful, though, and very very manic. Nice guy.)
Ellie
I think you know I am not trying to be difficult or attacking.
Absolutely! I know that, and I didn't think it for a minute. And I'm not either, and I'm not attacking this woman. She may be wonderful...but she has some things she needs to handle. And in order for things to be "clean", I would hope she makes her decision without considering Al or anyone else as a possibility.
I know that the OW in my case did turn to my (then) H and ask his advice about her marriage...they grew closer as they both talked about how their marriages were not fulfilling, how their spouses just didn't "get" them, and how they didn't know if divorce was the answer. It was doubly complicated because both of them had spouses and families...but there is no doubt in my mind that part of their decision to quit the marriages was based on the real possibility of a new relationship together. Neither one of them would have ended the M without that motivation. Whether or how much it was discussed, or if it was just an unspoken possibility, I don't know. And yet, while it is so obvious to those around them, they didn't see it that way at all...in their minds, they are convinced they were headed out the door anyhow.
I hope this came across the way I meant it to...
VJ
Sure, jump in while I'm not looking
0
What is so d*mn attractive about a woman that makes bad decisions, cannot figure out how to manage her bad decisions, makes more bad decisions, and then looks to others to tell her what to do? I know not all men are attracted to women like this but since you seem to be in a position where you ARE attracted to this woman I have to ask.
Well nothing is attractive about a woman like that of course. I think I did a bad job of describing things. It MAY be I am a complete stooge here, but I have known her for quite a long time and have never had this kind of desparation from her. She's always been quite confident and capable.
The
reason I am atrracted to her is because I have always found her attractive. I have known her for about 10 years (again, up unitl recently, with no drama).
Now to be a bit cruel. What makes you think that if this kind of woman does get involved with a great, kind, smart, loyal loving guy she will not get bored out of her mind because she actually LOVES the drama that goes along with the bad decisions she makes? She wants to be able to talk to friends and family at length about this great trouble in her life. She likes the uproar around her and all the drama it entails.
Hell, I didn't think that. In general, my post was kind along the lines of "crap, apparently everyone's marriage goes to sh^t at one point or another. Anybody know some good ways to deal with that?" I don't think she (or alternatively, a person like you describe) would be fine if they just had a wonderful guy. My XW did a very effective job of curing me of the illusion of a women who "just married the wrong guy".
Seriously I see wonderful beautiful women around me, including VJ and Jenn and MJ from SSM, who could play the victim card so easily. But they do not. Are they less appealing to some men because of that aversion to being the victim? I KNOW the opposite is true that there are men that will find them MORE attractive because of this stance.
Sure it is true. I know some of those women on your list quite well. I find them all attracive. Dang geography anyway.
I'm not even convinced that it's this specific woman that is so appealing to you...I think it's the feeling of being needed and important to a woman again. She's turning to you for advice and it feels good! Attention from an attractive woman can seem to heal a lot of the damage caused by your XW's rejection...but this isn't the woman you need right now. And like I said, I think you already realize that.
You're right!!! I will say, in my own defense, that dawned on me too. I have always found her attractive, but I am initimacy-starved which compounded the problem.
Anyway I know that Al recognizes what he is feeling and what he needs to do. My point was more to ask if he recognized the issue of this woman. While he has felt an attraction to her does he realize that she MAY be doing this on purpose (consciously or not)? Does he really see her as a true "victim" in this case?
Oh no. I don't see her as the victim. Never have. Part of what I was trying to get at with the two cases in the post was a general, marriages can reach this stage kind of point. I don't think she's a victim of something. I think she and her H are both victims of bad relationship skills.
She MAY well (consciously or not) being feeding me her drama on purpose. That thought sure as heck crossed my mind.
Being around her really opened my eyes to how women manipulate men, and how blind men are to that process
No doubt that works with lots of guys (ever see "The Truth About Cats & Dogs"?). Personally, I find it (the needy behaviour manipulation, not the movie) quite annoying.
I know that the OW in my case did turn to my (then) H and ask his advice about her marriage...they grew closer as they both talked about how their marriages were not fulfilling, how their spouses just didn't "get" them, and how they didn't know if divorce was the answer. It was doubly complicated because both of them had spouses and families...but there is no doubt in my mind that part of their decision to quit the marriages was based on the real possibility of a new relationship together. Neither one of them would have ended the M without that motivation. Whether or how much it was discussed, or if it was just an unspoken possibility, I don't know. And yet, while it is so obvious to those around them, they didn't see it that way at all...in their minds, they are convinced they were headed out the door anyhow.
I hope this came across the way I meant it to...
It did. You know I am as aware of that scenario as you are VJ. And since you and I both recoil from the relationships that our X's formed as a result of that process, I am sure you know what I think the odds of success or the suitability of relationships formed that way are
Thanks everyone for input. Keep it coming. I am a little afraid I did a bad job of describing the situation in Case 2, but even so, I have a different perspective thanks to you.
Ultimately, I am just looking more understanding about marriages just in case I need it again some day.
And oh by the way. I do have a "rescuerer" personality, but not, I think, in the way you mean it. More in the sense of someone I already know needing help.
In general, my post was kind along the lines of "crap, apparently everyone's marriage goes to sh^t at one point or another. Anybody know some good ways to deal with that?"
Not to be picky but I thought your post was about But what the heck do I do, short of listening and providing support to help that process with these friends? Or is there anything? Also, is there a point at which divorce is the answer? which along with all the description of a really dysfunctional family situation sounded a lot like looking for "permission" to approve a divorce.
Anyway, I didn't mean what I wrote to be an indictment against your friend. As you've mentioned I think you have multiple issues with her - you have always found her attractive, she is in a MESS, she is looking for help, it feels good to have someone need you, etc.
Oh and I probably fall in the rescuer category myself although I try to be aware of that tendency. And I know Raven falls into that category. So in our case maybe we rescued each other!!
Thanks fearless. You are probably right. I was asking that sort of permission, not realizing it. Thankfully, I have good friends here who don't let me off the hook.
And I know you weren't indicting anyone. Believe me, I rewrote that response a few times to keep from being defensive
And many of us are rescuers I think. It's not a bad thing.
Al, you're just too nice of a guy and you want to help and rescue and be needed. A tendency to do that is in most of us. Remember when you advised me that I should make my H feel 'needed'? I agree, and in some sort of way isn't being needed a form of flattery? and who doesn't want to feel flattered!
Don't lose your niceness, it's a great part of who you are. Just be careful not to let people take advantage of that/you.
You still hold the title of Mr King of Flirt.
I am def. in the rescuer category too!!
Love,
Lisa
Hey Al,
I would bet that most of us that find ourselves here are rescuers. I think that's what separates us from others in our situation who tend to just accept what they were handed. We all seem to go into this thinking that we can somehow change the outcome. It didn't work in a longterm relationship with the person that we had the deepest emotional connection with. Sure won't happen with someone we hardly know.
Al you seem like a very smart and thoughful guy, I think you'll be able to see if you're getting sucked in. Just remember that your still figuring out your own crap and that takes time and space!
Love,
bethie
Hey Al
How's it going? Yep, another rescuer here. Although I think a little rescuing is a good thing, it's something I am trying to distance myself from.(especially that last one I tried to fix for nearly 20 years
) Hope you had a good Easter with loads of chocolate and the boys on a sugar high!
Beth is so right--I bet a lot of us would categorize ourselves a s rescuers. Sometimes a good thing and sometimes not.
Well you guys will be happy to know I have kept my rescuing tendencies in check lately. I stopped by the sitter's today to pay her (as I do every Friday) and her H was home from work. I clearly walked in on a serious talk between the two of them but I faked ignorance, paid and got out. Hope that they are arriving at something that is an improvement for them. I should mention that I have a lot of contact with them. She does watch S4 everyday and S8 (soon to be 9) when he is off school. She'll watch them both this summer. Her son is a close pal of S8's and he often stays the night either with me when the kids are here or with XW when they are with her and sometimes with my XMIL since my kids always stay the night with her on Fridays. He stayed with XMIL last Friday and since I had to pick up my kids there and sitter had to pick up hers, we ran into each other at XMIL's for example.
This spring S5 has developed a strong resistance to going to the sitter's house. It seems pretty obvious to me that the problem is that he is now the "old man" there. Her other charges are all toddlers, most still in diapers. S5 who also goes to pre-school, is really enjoying playing with kids his own age and feels a little lonely at the sitter's. His close friends there were all a year or so older and now in school this year. But they come to the sitter's after school is over so that although he doesn't want to go in the mornings, he doesn't want to leave in evenings because he is playing with his pals, LOL.
Anyway, kids go through these feelings. Since I was always the transportation to and from the sitter's, I dealt with it with S8 a one stage too. XW never did and S5's reluctance has hit her harder. I guess on Tuesday, he cried because he didn't want to stay in the morning. It apparently hit XW pretty hard.
That day, I got an e-mail from her about kid stuff which is quite unusual. She always just calls. She only e-mails when she wants to say something "bad". For example, the last e-mail, about a month ago, was the first one I had received in probably 3 or 4 months (although we talk on the phone almost daily). It was a suggestion for a change in visitation schedule and I knew she worried that she would make me mad or upset. It was funny because she apparently understands the pattern as well as I do and ended the e-mail with "The only reason I sent this by e-mail is because I wanted to be able to write it all out". Can you say defensive?
Anyway, this week's e-mail had nothing but just run-of-the-mill stuff in it, and I was quite surprised. Then on Weds, sitter told me how S5 cried because he didn't want to stay and then said it made XW cry too which really gave me pause. In 13 or 14 years of knowing her, I have seen XW cry maybe twice. For her to cry is a very big thing, It made me wonder about her emotional state and whether she had other things weighing on her. I have never shaken the feeling that throughout all this, she has been perfectly happy.
It also explained the e-mail that morning. I suspect she was a little too worked up to call and play normal on the phone. The whole thing prompted e-mail exchanges this week instead of the normal phone calls. The tones changed until I could tell she had recovered herself. Years of marriage make you know when they are upset and when they are not.
Meanwhile, I have finally landed a gig to make a little extra money. A friend at work bought a house to fix up and has been eaten alive by contractor prices. After months of hearing about it (and when my brother said he would help), I told her I would do some of the work for a reasonable price. She was overjoyed and my brother and I went to see what she wanted done. For the last two weeks, when I haven't had the kids or been at work, I have been there working. It has been a little exhausting, leaving normal work at 4 or 5 and going there to work till 9 or 10 at night and then working to 9 or 10 on one weekend day, but it has been lucrative.
Today I came home from work for the first time in two weeks with no kids and no "other work" to go do and fell asleep until 8 pm, LOL. Tomorrow I will work on her house all day and Sunday, the boys will come.
Despite being a little tiring, it has been very therapeutic for me. I have been so broke, that I have strong tendency to do nothing since everything costs (or seems to cost) money. That sort of thing does nothing for your mental well being and to stay busy like this is great. Plus my friend, who is a good deal older than me and has been divorced for a long time with years of post divorce trauma (continuing to "date" XH when he was also "dating" OW) sits around and talks X's with me when the work is done.
So with a little extra cash flow and something to keep me busy, things are looking up.
Despite being a little tiring, it has been very therapeutic for me. I have been so broke, that I have strong tendency to do nothing since everything costs (or seems to cost) money. That sort of thing does nothing for your mental well being and to stay busy like this is great.
I feel this way a lot as well. Sounds like you've found a great way to maintain balance both by being busy and by leaning on a friend.
So what are you thinking aobut S5's situation? Is there a solution for his, based on S8's experience? Or are you waiting for the summer and then kindergarten?
Hey Al,
How goes it? I just caught up on your situation and I think you have gotten some great advice. YOu seem to be aware that you are dealing with a vulnerable woman (case #2) and are wise enough to bring it to light.
There's an improv show in Bloomington tonight on 6th and Walnut--a friend of mine does some cool stuff. It's in the same space that the art olympics were last year--come if you feel like it--it starts at 8:00 pm. Parking will be a bitch though because of the little 500. Yara and I will be there.
Take care,
Althea
Hej, Al!
Been awhile so I thought I'd look up your last thread and see how things are going for you. I'm sure the ladies would like a refresh of the Bathsheba sagas as well as newbies wanting to know how to deal with an X after the primary relationship ends and it's all about the kids. Hope you're doing ok and that you have time to post an update.
NH (formerly OnTheBeach)