Oldtime DBing - DivorceBusting.com

To all,

So as not to co-opt Hopeful's thread and since a discussion is ensuing, I decided to start a new thread. Actually Cathy47 and I have had a couple of off-board emails which played an integral part in getting this thread going. Also, an incident on another forum is responsible for this thread too. And it has been something which I have been kicking around in my own mind for quite some time.

WARNING: As with everything I say, people may be offended. It is my desire to discuss and nothing is directed toward any individual.

There is no catalytic event which led me to start this thread, but rather a breakdown of the system over time. As someone with extensive training in equilibrium (for this discussion, stability or balance would be a good word to use) through economics and chemical engineering, I recognize that things don't change quickly although it may appear so.

First, I called this thread old-time DBing because I started here four and a half years ago. Others I know have been coming around even longer; some not so long. So this thread is not to say how wonderful we are, although many of the people I have come to know over these past few years truly are wonderful. Rather, I had sensed a change in attitude on the board which quite frankly seems counterproductive to me.

When I first came to the board, it was to save my marriage which, of course, we know didn't happen. However, the message that I clearly received from the book and the people here was very clear. Take care of yourself. You can�t control others. Do what you have to do to be the best person you can be.

Now, obviously, when we come here, we are a mess. We are willing to try any rumination that our feeble minds could concoct. And we are feeble at this time. There has been a devastating shock to our system, i.e. we have lost equilibrium. Throughout this time, there were certain things I knew to expect from this board. Mainly, I knew that people would be here to listen to me. Also, I knew that they would try to help me keep my emotions in check to a certain extent. And finally, they were always quick to say I understand and to keep doing the things which will make me a better person. Hopeful, I can still hear you telling me these things. But they were also here to tell me when I was screwing up or making excuses for myself or feeling sorry for myself.

Now this brings me to the first breakdown that I have seen in DBing. Not once do I recall being told that I had to save my marriage. Not once did I hear anyone tell me that it would be saved, although I do believe that my interactions with my ex were a source which led to positive expectations for me and others. But what I learned from this really didn�t take hold until much later. When I look back, I tried to give her every opportunity to walk back. The mistake I made was to think that I had done everything for me to make that possible.

Now, what exactly does that mean? In a counseling session, the discussion turned to my desire to change. At that point, I do believe that I wanted the magic pill or the Great Gazoo to snap his fingers and equilibrium would be restored. But it doesn�t work that way. The counselor said to me, �you have been a certain way for a long time, it is going to take a long time to change.� Truer words have never been said and even now, I still work towards that change. This is not the change that we must do in every day life, but rather getting past some of those old, destructive habits that put where I am in the first place. The other thing that I recognize is that you can�t change everything at once. If there is anyone who says they can, then they are only fooling themselves.

So the first lesson is that too often people who come to the board want that instantaneous change. It comes in two parts. The first part is they think they can change quickly. The second part is that they expect their spouses to change quickly. And this leads to unrealistic expectations. In all this time, I still continue to change, but I recognize it is a process, a process that will lead me to equilibrium. The second is an unrealistic expectation that their spouses can change quickly.

The next breakdown that I have seen is a continuation of the bashing of spouse, exes or soon-to-be-exes. Take a look back and see how often you have seen people say they are so much happier on their own or with someone new. Yet, they react to every single gyration of that person who had been their H/W. If you are continuing to bash that person incessantly and you continue to react negatively to their actions, you are not through the experience. It means you haven�t moved on. It means you have to go back to the first point I made and figure out what changes you need to make to yourself to move on in this life. When my ex bought a house with OM, I strongly reacted by throwing the kitchen sink in her face. I was right, but she wasn�t going to hear. But it did serve as a notice that I still was not through the experience.

When you put the first two points together, the breakdown manifests itself in an unwillingness to accept the person who comes to the DB board for solutions fails to accept their role in the breakdown of the marriage and consequently don�t change. Now if you don�t change how can you expect a future relationship to work. And change doesn�t mean losing 40 pounds or getting a new wardrobe, but rather what is it about me that will make me a better person.

Finally, the board has become a place to make friends first and support second. Supporting someone on the DB board does not mean cheerleading and telling people that everything they do is right and oh how wonderful they are. Support means that you are willing to look at a situation and tell the person the truth as you see it. The idea is that an anonymous forum can lead to more honesty. As I have said in other places I have always appreciated the people who were willing to tell me the things that I didn�t want to hear. Had I been more open to constructive criticism and an occasional whack on the head with a 2x4 before I ever met my ex, perhaps my position in life would be better today. What the everyone-is-my-friend attitude fosters is an unwillingness to say what needs to be said.

There is no doubt that we did seek out people who have similar struggles as we do, but there was no constant need to tell everyone how great they were. Yes, we told each other that we were good people and that we had a lot to offer, but we were still able to tell someone when they were screwing up. I am glad that I was able to meet many people from the board. But I am even happier that they were there to support me before becoming my friends. It has made my friendships much stronger even though I don�t always get a chance to tell them such. Afterall, the idea behind DBing is to get on with your life regardless of who is or is not in your life. I am for one happy that I have been able to move forward in my life on my own, i.e. without the need for a significant other. It is such a feeling of freedom. And no one can take that away from me.

IMP

IMP,

Much of what you,ve said here makes perfect sense to me. Much of what you said over on the "other" thread made sense to me also, but the person you were posting to didnt want to feel un sure about posting her feelings, for fear of recriminations from you, and that is what was happening.

I dont know that there are ANY "proper" rules to DBing, Old-time, New-time, its not set in stone, we are all individuals and all do things our own way. I totally understand you views about being supported, then making friends, and the difference between encouraging someone to stand up for themselves, and encouraging someone to be a doormat and being destructive to them by doing that.
The problem I had with the way you were posting to that person, wasnt that you were being forcefull in your posts, but that you continued to BE forcefull even when it was apparent that she didnt feel comfortable with your comments. Had you made your point then let it go, fine, but you insisted on trying to force a square peg into a round hole!

Im sure over the years, we have all posted and met with different groups of people on here.
I suppose the type of support we get largely depends on the type of people who are reading/posting and are members at the same time as we are. Fate plays a bit of a part in that.
Ive also noticed, when reading through all the forums, that there are definate little "groups" of people who are, for one reason or another, drawn into a "clique" and become very reliant on these group of posters, never actually posting or reading anyone elses threads except theyre particular groups.
I guess this is in part because of a need to "belong" to a smaller group, to get the familiarity and bonding that may not be possible in a larger group. I know Ive relied HEAVILY on friends ive made on here, first on the "seperated" forum, then on the "mlc" forum. I dont know what i would have done without them.
Ive been shouted at and bossed about, when ive needed it, but in a way that dosnt under-mine my confidance, or cause offense, because its always been done in a kind way, even if sometimes the words did hurt.

There were times you were pretty unkind in the way you said things, I still stand by that, and there were times when you almost had me screaming at the computer screen!

Ive no doubt of your intentions, but sometimes people have to soften theyre approach to certain people, we are not all thick-skinned, and some of your earlier comments on yet another thread of K-----S, was deeply offensive to me, (the heroin addiction comparison), and I did react badly to it. (read my thread if you need to know why, on here).

Im sure you didnt intend to touch a nerve with me or anybody, but the point im making is that, sometimes, we can offend others and cause them great pain, when we post about emotive subjects such as addiction and child abuse on a public forum. We dont know who is going to read those posts, or what they have gone through, or how our chosen words may affect them.
We are all entitled to our opinions, but some things are maybe best not touched upon in such a flippant way. With the thread that we last had a fall-out on, I did feel badly for K, she was obviously trying so hard to DB as she saw it, and you did sort of get your teeth into her and not let go!
IMP, I can see that, in your eyes, you were trying to help, and that, in your eyes, we were not. Can I just point out here, I rarely, If ever give advice to others on here, im not qualified enough, and I never did "cheerlead" K. There were times i did think she was leaving herself open to be a doormat, but wouldnt post that, because it wouldnt have helped her. The only reason I got involved in the post was because of the comments Ive already stated, and then because of the "words" you and I had subsequently.

I dont want to get into a huge debate over on this forum about it, I want to put this behind me and try to do the best I can to move on and I hope I can do that without having to defend everything I may post on here. I dont want to be treated with kid-gloves, I can give as good as I get, and a healthy debate is good for the soul, but I just needed to respond to your post, although you havnt mentioned names I do know Im involved in that, and I dont want to bring any bad feeling over to this forum. Lifes too short.

mea

mea,

Your attitude about yourself and what you are willing to put up with from your husband is not the normal attitude that is being seen over on MLC.

I read your thread that you started here and I felt bad that you actually said that, according to DB filing for divorce was a "no-no." The attitude that runs rampant over there these days is to save the marriage at all costs.

I can't speak for Michelle BUT I can't believe that Michelle wrote her books and worked years on these techniques so that she could breed a new generation of co-dependents and that is what I see happening over there.

I learned very quickly not to give my opinion or advice over there after being called names by people who were supposedly working on changing themselves and how they respond to conflict. It was odd to me that they were coddling each other but could turn around and be down right vicious with anyone who had a differing idea or opinion.

As for IMP's comments on addicts and enabling, well, he is not a mind reader. He has no way of knowing all that is going on in someone's life and if he makes a statement that hits a nerve because of other problems in someone's life is it his fault when he was unawar in the first place?

This is the thing about it. There is one woman posting over there that has gotten to the point that she is having to move in with relatives because she can't afford a place to live. Inspite of that she posts about buying new books and ordering expensive DVDs that will keep her DBing and trying to fix her marriage. She is going to start filling up his love tank by buying him gifts...he really likes nice shoes and since she knows him better than his pregnant girlfriend she can gain his love by buying him better gifts?!?!?!

This woman's judgement is so clouded by the bad emotions she is feeling right now that she is spending money she doesn't have. Letting go of every plan she had for herself and her future because she has decided she is going to single handedly save her marriage. A marriage she has with a man who is living with his pregnant girlfriend!

One person after another is posting to her about what a strong woman she is and how she is doing the right thing. Women are posting and asking her advice and telling her how they wish they could make the progress she is making. They read about how her husband will call her on the phone and chat or how he will instant message with her, beg money from her, ignore her and her children, take action that means she is alone with 3 children, carrying the burden of all that is done for them and women on that forum are actually telling her that she is some kind of success story.

She is on this board posting several times a day. Has a job and three children and I don't know where she is getting to time to work and raise her children because she seems to put so much time and energy into fixing this marriage of hers.

How can anyone go on her thread and say anything that might encourage this person to carry on as she is and not feel guilt about it? How can anyone not see that she is ruining her life and setting herself up for more pain and not feel guilty about not being friend enough to try and help her see that?

I think if we could all sit down and talk to Michelle face to face we would find out that DBing has to be modified to fit our particular circumstance and our particular needs. You are right, there is no "proper" way to use her techniques. I think she would be the first to tell anyone to not allow themselves to be destroyed emotionally or financially in the hopes of saving a marriage to someone who is plainly abusive.

There is one woman on that forum whose husband has moved back into the home. He yells at their son, says horrifice hurtful things to their daughter and this woman's response is to tell her children that he "isn't thinking clearly right now." That attitude is hog wash and it has nothing to do with DBing.

It is enabling behavior and it is being done by women who are allowing their children to be abused for the sake of their marriage. They are putting their own emotional pain before the welfare of their children and taking crap just to keep from facing the idea of living alone and focusing on making a life without that husband they are giving so much up for.

Thank God that was not the attitude when I first came here 5 years ago. Thank God I found myself amongst people who respected themselves and had enough respect for me to ever encourage me to accept abuse from my ex husband.

I read IMP's posts to this particular woman. At no time was he unkind. In fact, he is probably the kindest person to post to her because, unlike the women who are encouraging her to carry on, IMP cares enough about her and her children to step up to the plate and point out the losing battle she is trying to fight.

I would rather have someone like IMP on my side any day than overly-sensitive people who would push me in a direction that would mean continuing to fight when fighting meant losing myself and doing harm to my children.

Anyone who posts to these women that they should try and save their marriages at all costs are not helping. Anyone who will post to these women and stroke them and tell them they are doing the right thing is worse than any enemy they could have and they are projecting their own fears off onto that person and just perpectuating a cycle of abuse.

I'm so glad that the mentality of those I found when I first started posting here was different. I was in a such a deranged state of mind from all the pain if I had found the support that she has found I might still be trying to save that marriage. I definitely would not have been able to save myself financially and emotionally if I had gotten that kind of cheering on instead of the head banging I got on several occasion.

I guess I should also be glad that I was able to see the importance of looking outside myself and my pain and paying attention to those who had more experience than I did at solving the kind of problems I was having. Bottom line, thank goodness I have enough self-respect to listen to others and thank goodness there were those here who realized that maintaining my self-respect was more important than fighting for a marriage that was already dead.
Cathy

Cathy,
I agree totally with everything you said. I swear, you can read my mind!!!

Like you, I appreciate honesty more than anything. I give it and expect it back in return.

There's been numerous times when I've attempted to post to people in other forums that I felt were being abused/used in some fashion. I used to work at a women's shelter for domestic violence. The reality is, unfortunately, that these people don't want the truth. What they want is something magical that will make everything turn out the way they want. I'm to the point that I don't read posts in other forums (unless it's a friend) because it just pisses me off!!!

We've all been there at some point, however, "most" of us eventually figure out that we have to save ourselves and our children. In my opinion, those that continue to hang on to an unhealthy R, are extremely selfish people. They're setting a horrible example to their kids and denying themselves an opportunity for happiness.

The biggest thing that drove me when going through my D, was how my D would view my actions. I wanted her to be proud of me, not feel sorry for or disrespect me because I put up with the BS from H.

Sorry to expound endlessly on this subject. I guess I got a little fired up!!!!

BTW, I had to quit counseling at the shelter because I just couldn't understand why these women stayed in the R's.

Mea,

I think it comes down to at what point are settling for less than you deserve.

Everyone has a different threshhold for pain.I reached mine pretty quickly when my stbx moved to CA to live with his ow.

For some the price of saving the marriage isn't worth the cost.finacially and emotionally.

I do know that Michelle told us who's H are in midlife to protect ourselves finacially.

Even if DBing doesn't work if we have done the work then we are better off.We will be better parents,friends,and someday if we are lucky and if we chose partners for someone who is worth the cost.

Hopefully it will at the least help us to coparent.

I use DBing tatics at work.
It's about learning not to react to a bad sitch to make it worse.I know I wouldn't have learned to control my temper if it hadn't been for those who put me in my place a time or two when I needed it.There were a time or two where I just wouldn't listen to those who had the velvet 2x4.I wish I had.

Dealing with a spouse in midlife is so hard.They keep you off balance.Learning to adjust is the key.

But I would never sell myself short.I know I deserve to be in a relationship where I'm loved and cared for.I will not settle for less than I'm willing to give.

I have just started to date a little.(man has the game changed)I'm in no hurry to mate up.In fact I have finally gotten to the point where I enjoy being by myself.And for a mother of five finding time alone was something I used to complain about.Well now that I have it I'm enjoying it.

I have a wonderful family.A whole slew of friends.When I was married I had no girlfriends.Now I have 3 that I can call on any time I need to talk.

The whole world is before us.I plan on taking my fair share and enjoy it.

I once said I'm grabbing life by the b@lls and making it scream.

When it comes down to it your making the choice to save yourself.And that is a good thing.

Later Friend.
Briget

Well said, Cathy. No one wants to take away hope, but in all honesty there comes a time when there is no hope of the m being saved.(I often wonder why they would want to)and to give out false hope is to my mind cruel. DBing was and is first and formost for you.

qoe, I can read your mind woman and you to clean it up a bit!!

I've always been a rather blunt person. I'm not one to sugar coat things. I don't have the time or energy. On top of that I don't expect people to have to go out of there way when giving me advice because they fear my reaction. It's just plain childish for anyone to take on the attitude that people should watch how they talk to them just because they are hurting.

I'm not one to be mean or insulting but when I see a woman doing things that is damaging to her children and herself I will tell it like it is. I give what I expect to get and don't really care to deal with folks who are overly sensitive and need to be stroked.

I think that is when you are dealing with people who don't want the truth and all you are doing is spinning your wheels. IMP told me in an email that one of the most important things he learned from DB is how to live alone.

The fear of this is what causes some women to take the abuse and make excuses to hold onto marriages with men who are disrespeting them in terrible ways.

I loved my ex husband dearly. I would have and did walk through hell trying to save that marriage. When I saw that I was losing my pride and self-respect though it was time to move on. I think the difference is that some of these women have already lost all pride and self-respect and are going into the fight without that armor...so to speak.

I remember watching my sons and being very aware that my actions during that time would go a long way toward teaching them how a man can and can't treat a woman. It was way more important for me to stand up for myself and teach my children that they can't crap on a woman than it was to keep fighting for the marriage.

I might not have that marriage but maybe, one day, my sons will have marriages and will have learned from my example how to respect a wife. That, for me is worth any marriage I might have ended up with.

There is no magic out there. We either have to be willing to endure the pain of standing up for ourselves or endure the pain of pursuing men who don't want us. For me, the pain of standing up for myself was far greater than holding onto my ex husband. The payoff was bigger though. I might not have him any longer but I've damned sure got myself and I've got two sons who love and respect me.

I'm fired up also qoe. I get fired up when someone I know, who has a genuine heart is accused of bullying or trying to push his views down someone's throat when nothing could be further from the truth.

I've been married twice. My first husband hit me one night. One punch in the face with his fist and I was history. I walked out the door and have never seen him again. I divorced his butt without ever laying eyes on him again. I understand feeling helpless and being in pain. I just can't wrap my brain around the concept of allowing myself to be abused and working at holding onto someone who would do that to me.

Maybe I'm just too damned mean to get it. Whatever it is, I'll take advice from someone willing to be honest to me any day over someone who feels they have to walk on egg shells.
Cathy

I�m one of the oldies that have been on this board since Sept. of 1999 when I discovered Divorce Busting and got that book back then. I don�t come to this board much anymore except to check on old friends from time to time. I was drawn to this thread when I saw IMP�s name and the subject. I no longer post here much for a variety of reasons, one that my life has been too busy to spend much time here (a good thing) and the other that I agree that this really isn�t the place it was once was. Perhaps in some ways it�s a victim of its own success. I don�t know who or what thread on MLC people refer to, nor do I have the time to find out. So I�m just going by what IMP and Cathy47, both whom I met and respect say here. Frankly, if their accounts are accurate, it is downright scary that women victimize themselves and their children this way.

At any rate my reason for this post is to quote from Michelle�s first book Divorce Busting, to perhaps shed some light on the circumstances that marriages are not and should not be saved. Those very words (as well as a great deal of prayer and reflection) gave this good Catholic girl, hell bent on standing for her marriage the wisdom and courage to open her eyes and see the reality of her situation. I quote this directly from Divorce Busting in hopes helping forward the discussion of what DB is and isn't. Michele does not believe ALL marriages MUST be saved at all costs. Here are some experts:

From Divorce Busting Chapter 9:

�It is my hope that anyone reading this book wishing to preserve their marriage will be able to do so. However, I know that this not always possible. You may need additional resources to help solve your marital difficulties. And, unfortunately, some marital problems are not resolvable��

��.This chapter would not be complete without mentioning the important fact that some marriages should be terminated. But which ones?�

�The reasons that a person should leave a marriage are rarely black and white and can�t be neatly categorized. A particular kind of problem doesn�t necessarily lead to divorce; it is the unwillingness to change that destroys marriages. The type and even the severity of a particular problem tells less about the chances for eventual happiness than does the an honest commitment (or lack of it) to change."

"Having said that, it is essential to point out that physical abuse should never be tolerated. If you are married to someone who is physically abusive, who does not recognize the problem and isn�t willing to seek help, it is crucial that you remove yourself from the threat of violence and get professional help. No one under any circumstances, should endure physical abuse.�

The chapter goes on to list what to do next if all your Dbing efforts have not worked. These include detailed advice on addressing the following questions:
�1. Have you given a particular approach enough time?
2. Have you tried another approach?
3. Have you talked to friends, relatives and clergy?
4. Have you asked your spouse to go to therapy?� (The chapter includes information on how to choose a therapist and what to expect from therapy.)

Lastly on page 230 Michele states:

�If your spouse is absolutely convinced that he or she must leave the marriage, there probably not much you can do to turn things around. You can�t make a person want the marriage to work if he or she is determined to get out. Sometimes there is absolutely nothing that will change a person�s mind about leaving. You may do everything right and it still doesn�t work.�

�You may be wondering how you will know if things are hopeless. Trust your instincts. Continue working on your marriage until you are convinced it�s over. Don�t let anyone else tell you its time to abandon ship. You are the expert on your life, you decide whether it�s time to re-think your goals. There are no experts or books that can tell you when to end a marriage. You must be the one to make this decision�.

As we all know here, to make that decision is very difficult and not something done lightly. It is a painful process to realize that you must end your marriage, not only for yourself but because in your case the reality was that your spouse chose unilaterally to end it, and to stubbornly prolong the end would hurt your children even more. It is the hardest thing I�ve ever done in my life. As a result of it I have become a stronger and better person. Along the way, some wonderful caring people here, who had the same commitment that I did to marriage helped me. I needed 2 by 4�s, hell some days 3 by 6�s! And I�m grateful for it. Coddling would have led me to fantasyland, I�m glad people were brutally honest. It helped me to ask and answer the questions that were needed to help me realize what needed to happen.

I don�t know if Rondo will see this, but I remember how brutal the women especially were with him, and how grateful in the end he was with all of us for helping set him straight.

Growth is hard, painfully hard. You don�t get there by just doing the motions.

MC

Hi Cathy, thanks for taking the time to read and comment on my post.

Im not really sure if you are saying my attitude is wrong or right. Or do you mean the attitude i had over on the other forum?

Also, I dont understand that you felt bad about my Divorce attitude being a no-no as far as DBing goes?

Ive always read on here that l.b.s shouldnt file, if the wah wants to, let him do all the hard work!

Thata why I thought it was a no-no for me to file.

Ive had enough of making excuses for my Husband, and in quite a short time-span up to others on here, and Im ready to stand up for my rights. I wont be dis-respected anymore. But I also wouldnt want to post on my new thread and be disrespected there either!

I dont see a group of co-dependants, or en-ablers, I wouldnt want to lable anyone I didnt personally know. I do see people who, rightly or wrongly, take DBing to the extremes, doing ANYTHING to try to save their marriage. That is there choice. Yes, its destructive if the relationship is abusive, or if the person is neglecting children because they are SO into DBing, that it becomes an obcession, and takes over everything.

But the issue about IMP posting only in kindness, I have to strongly disagree with you. There were times when IMPs posts WERE unkind, and rude, and sneering.

But the main issue there, was the fact that, If K didnt take his advice, instead of putting his point across, then leaving it, he FOLLOWED her to her other thread to keep on at her about it. She felt uncomfortable with it. It was disrespectfull not to see how uneasy it was making her when he gave her all the answers, when she didnt even ask him the questions! He HAD to make her see, and fair play to him for trying to make her see that she sometimes "enabled" her h to take her for a fool, but then he should have left her alone. He didnt help her, because K wanted help the way SHE wanted ir, not the way IMP wanted her to.

In your post to him over ther, you too said he was being disrespectfull too her, and that she hadnt asked for his opinion, so why keep on
giving it.

As for the post when i said he shouldnt compare Ks reliance on her h, to that of a drug-addict, or a paedophile, I stand by that remark whole-heartedly. Of course, as you said, IMP wouldnt know that people who have gone through these terrible things may read it, but that was my point exactly when I said that emotive subjects such as that shouldnt be used in a flippant way to compare DBing situations/posters.

No, he is not a mind reader. Which is why it may be a good idea to leave serious issues such as those out of a post. Why not say something like " I compare what you are doing, to that of a little child who cant keep away from the candy counter at the shop. Its not good for you, but you cant help yourself and say NO !"

Im not over-sensative, theres not much can be said to me that will upset me, and i will not apolagise if those comments hit a nerve, but on a public forum such as this, it goes without saying that there will be people on here who have had lives destroyed and suffered because of those two serious crimes. And I think some restraint may be needed when posting to strangers, because, as you said, how could one know what a fellow poster may have gone through? A bit of sensitivity is always needed on a public board.

Im over here to hopefully get support, and I dont need to be wary of posting my thoughts and feelings, incase I feel im being flamed for not doing it the way some people WANT me to do it.

I dont intend to fight for my marriage any longer, but I wont condem anyone who does, we all have our switch-off time, Ive found mine now, and others may take longer, but we should all be able to things the way we see fit, without blasting others who dont do it the way we wont.

Old time DBing or modern DBing, surely we all just do it how it best suits us, and what works for us?

It dosnt make it wrong if its not the same as someone elses. It just makes it different! mea

Was wondering if this was a subject on anyone else' mind

I read the MLC board and apart from there being a brand new gorup of people, that in itself is sad that these situations are so widespread, but I didnt get the same feeling reading them then I did 2 yrs ago when I came here.

I had written how it seemed that they were advising
each other if you do 1-2-3 your S will return. Just sit tight, keep your mouth closed at all costs and things will work out ( for who??) A lot of canned quotes are used, no real substance.

I suppose everyone is different and everyone gets through this ordeal in their own way, but I knew it couldnt be right to let your S, openly flaunt a OP in front of you!
To kiss you goodbye and leave the house to go party all night, while you were home w/ the kids, to listen to him have convos on his cell w/ an OW, no way! I didnt haven the answers on how to save my M or anyones but I knew from common sense that this couldnt be it!

Rather glad to read this thread, I was doubting that maybe I should of let my H be a bit more free and " take it like a man" but knew that had to be wrong!

The best thing that was said to me from a dear friend here,,,Honey if he wanted to be with you, he WOULD be with you. Simple and it was that one sent. that pushed me over to Surviving and start to think of a life without H

I've really enjoyed reading this thread. I for one, don't feel like a failure because I filed for divorce. I tried, H didn't want to be married and left to live a single life. I waited it out as long as I could, but I wasn't going to live in a loveless, husbandless marriage. So I filed.

I'm much happier now too.

I think it's ok for us to pat one another on the back and say "atta girl!". But I also agree that sometimes people are honestly looking for help or answers. I don't see too much of that here in Surviving, because I think we know that all we have are opinions. We're not professionals. When I feel someone is asking for an opinion, I usually give it. I won't five reinforcement to something I disagree with, I'll ignore it. But we can sometimes help others by relating our stories to them.

What I don't get is when people post and are basically mean. I have not read any of the MLC threads mentioned here - frankly because I want to scream at some of them - so I have no idea what happened in those threads. But I've seen some of them swoop in here and get nasty for no darned reason. That doesn't help. I think of this place as a support group. If we can't support one another, why bother? We are not counselors. We're just people who have experienced some of the same as others here.

And besides, mean people suck.

This thread feels like home to me.

I, like Cathy, Livingwell, and IMP, worked hard on saving my marriage, but without giving up my self respect and without harming my children. That was what this BB was all about at that time. I hope that hasn't changed.

It gave me the strength to do what was best for ME and my girls. It and the people here never lost focus of that. It was always stressed to work on bettering yourself, I never lost site of that. It was always reinforced here.

Without people like IMP, Cathy, Livingwell who with many others always made sure I kept that focus I would never be as strong as I am now. And proud of it too.

It was always very clear to me that that's what Michelle meant in her books too.

Love to you all,
Liza

opps FRIEND lol

It's funny that this subject has come up, because as a DB'r and scanner of many posts for about a year now, I was just starting to feel like there is something missing...in all of the sections.."Seperated" "MLC" "Piecing". I go to these because I am in the middle of all of that..seperated from an MLC'r, but Piecing and working on lots of progressive baby steps. My point though, is that I come here to not only find support and people going through similar emotions and struggles, but to find some great ideas or thoughts about common roadblocks or questions. I sometimes wonder how come there aren't more DB SUCCESS stories...why doesn't Michelle and staff update them or make them more prominent? Why aren't there more moderators interacting and setting us straight about DB do's and don'ts? I guess I have started to feel a kind of slipping away of the focus and objective of this BB. I am not at all interested in reading or commenting on the soap opera aspects that come up in people's journals...that seems to get in the way of good old support and advice.

Anyway, thanks for bringing this up and I hope Michelle or someone besides us does some shifting about on this BB to keep it alive and constructive. It is an amazing place!

Hi IMP and Cathy
Another old-timer here.
I posted on the MLC forum this morning to a woman whose husband is taking his OW on a trip with him.
She still cooks and washes this man's laundry.
Calls him constantly.
I ask her why she condone such behaviour from him.
She did not reply to me, but one of her guardians did.
Pretty much to the fact that what worked for me will not work for them.
They will not open their eyes and ears to the fact that they are being human doormats.
The skills I learned while I was on the MLC forum were the best lessons I have ever learned in my life.
I would not be where I am today, had I not listen to the ones that had traveled the road before me.
Once I found out that my X-H had a woman,that was the straw that broke the camels back.
I am a sharing person, but with the men in my life.
No sir, No way.
It is great to say I love myself, I am happy, and I am not lonely.
Thanks guys for this thread.
I think it should have been posted on the MLC forum though.
God Bless

Pammie and Brigit- I see both of your POV. Can I ask a question? How do you deal with garbage when it gets spewed by H's to children? It just makes them sad and I get stuck with all of the questions. One day he said to them, "Mommy doesn't love daddy anymore and wants to trade him in on a new daddy." Today it was about me wanting to move away and move in with Grandpa (My Dad). This is from a man who has been having an affair for the last 2 years. And I am the one he blames for wanting to "trade him in".

I have mentioned to him that they are not little children now and we need to watch our words around them. They hear and understand adult conversations now and we need to be aware of the fact that they could be listening and repeating what they hear.

Pammie, I am through being a doormat finally. I can't help but wonder what it would be like if I hadn't waited so long to stand up for myself. So, yes, we need to listen to those that have gone before us. I think I am a better person now for having been here.

Cathy, how did you tell them about the situation? I have three girls, 8, 6 and 3. Right now H is living elsewhere and is here about half the evenings during the week. he does help with bath and bedtime about 1-2 nights per week. They treat him like a celebrity when he's around. He can play and doesn't have to do any of the tough stuff. I want to tell them about what's going on, but I just don't know how to do it. Someone suggested we both tell them, but I really can't trust him to do the right thing. I wanted to see a counselor for advice, but for lots of reasons, I haven't done it yet.

Wow, what a thread. Good to see my friends. Your debates are wonderful.
When I came on board ... over 5 years ago ... I wanted to save my marriage of 32 years. Yes, the MLC bug had my x. I was a total mess and I needed my friends from the board to keep me on track. Without their honest replies, I am sure I would be dead. I could not see how I could live without my life as it was. I could not bear to tell my grown children that their father was having an affair with a married woman. I hated what this did to my children. I NEEDED to be told to calm down, stop acting like a fool. I NEEDED to be told to work on myself.
My advise to anyone who dealing with a spouse in MLC would be to first take care of yourself financially. You can work on the marriage yet cover your backside.
Hey IMP, are you going to try and make the party this year? You know nursemom and you are suppose to be getting married soon. What year was it going to be?
Cathy, do you have a web site of your creative projects? Has your oldest son finished college yet or does he still have another year? Do you ever hear from Moe and Levelheaded? How about TomK? I still hear from Wonder Woman. We really did help each other.

Totally agree Brig
I am very cordial -even friendly w/ my STBX on the rare occassions we have to talk, I do this for me though,,after so long of crying and yelling and name calling, I feel better about myself when I talk to him in a respectible way, even though I think he has disrespected me these past 3 yrs. I do it for me , not him though.

In the case of some of the people on the mlc forum, I just dont know how I could sit back while my H went off w/ the OW, I guess I was lucky that I got the speech and he moved out the next morning, I dont know how I would of reacted to him if he would of used our home as a stop off.
Never say never and I cant say 100% how I would of reacted but I am pretty sure that is where I would of drawn the line.

Again everyone is different, we do what we have to do and do it to survive and be happy.

Mellanie,

Your children are at different ages and should be treated as such.

For instance your three year old is at an age where he just can't understand what is going on.He can be easily distrated.But when he does ask questions they will usually be things like where's daddy.You can give him a short answer like he's at his house or where ever it is.

Your six and eight year olds are able to understand a bit more and you can answer it a bit more directly.Such as daddy and I aren't living together but no matter what we both love.

If your H says something negative you can say I'm sorry he see's it that way.But this is how I see it.

For instance if he says you want to trade him in you could say no one can replace your daddy.He loves you very much.

If they ask why he isn't around you can say that he will be around when he can.You don't have to go into detail as to why he isn't around.Let your H explain it.If he answers it to their satifaction good.But if not they will figure it out on their own in time.

It's not your place to explain away his behavior.You just provide the love they need from you.

It's ok if they think he is the hero.It's better if they see him as a hero than someone who doesn't care.In the long run they will know it was you who was there for them.

As far as doing your stbx laundry and such.I know I didn't.I wouldn't.If he has ow she can do it.

No one should be a mans doormat.Or laundress.

That is what boundries are for.

But the question is how much are you willing to put up with.This threshhold is different for everyone.While I wouldn't do it.If it is ok with person who is doing it then that is what they choose.

I never spent money I needed for my children on books.I get them at the library for free.

Protecting yourself finacially is paramount when it comes to mlc.They go through money like it was going out of style.

Well I'm off to bed.

Have a good night.

Later Friends.
Briget

Hi Hopeful, it's good to hear from you. My oldest is in his last year of college. I can't believe he has already got three years behind him! I talk to TomK every day and he is doing well, still the same old jokster. He sent me copies of some of the old WTF Club threads a few months back. I couldn't believe he had copied and saved that stuff. I laughed out loud reading it. Mike and Moe are well, I talked to her a couple of months ago. They are both happy and she is enjoying being mother to his three little ones. They were made for each other. My website address is at the bottom of my posts...see down there? I know it is shameful self-promotion but I like to look at it as networking. A girl has got to do what a girl has to do when it comes to earning money and keeping a roof over her head.

I'm glad you are doing well and very glad you finally got the legalities behind you. It was a long time coming wasn't it? Take care and continue to flourish and say hello to NurseMom for me.
Cathy

Cathy,

There are very few people in this world that I put on a pedestal. You are one of them. I show people your website. I tell them the things you say, and they laugh as they laugh at things I say. I not only learned from the things you said, but I also learned by seeing the actions you took. When things were tough, you always did what you had to do to support yourself and your son even though there are some who would never "lower" themselves to do the same. You are truly a talented individual with great intelligence and I am pleased to call you my friend.

IMP

MC,

Thank you for stopping by. Yours is a fantastic post. Too often people forget what divorce busting really is. And you have come here with the exact words to tell the story. You hit many of the points that we as DBers were able to inculcate as core values.

Hopefully, we'll get another chance to share some time and I look forward to seeing that beaming smile of yours.

IMP

Hopeful,

Thank you for coming by. I know I don't always keep in touch, but when it comes to people who made a difference in my life, you are way up there. You would listen to me for hours on end as I was going through the most difficult time of my life and all you did was to remind me to keep my eye on the ball. You were like a loving big sister and I will never forget it.

As for the FLA party, we'll see what happens. I was able to make a couple, but my finances turned south. Actually some of the tougher time I faces were after my divorce, so I recognize that a piece of paper means nothing. Finally I am getting back on my feet, so we will see what happens.

And with regards to the marriage, ask Joni. You see her more than I do. I can't keep track of stuff anymore. And tell Joni to call me. I still have the same number.

IMP

Friend (if that is your name...lol),

I have a great big hug for you. Whenever I see your name, all I can remember is your big beautiful smile. You are truly one of the people I have ever met. And if you remember I told you that you reminded me of my mother's aunt. You are in excelent company.

IMP

PS to all - I appreciate everyone coming by. There are things that I have to say to other and will do so but the b@stards are going to make me work this week, but in the words of the terminator. "I'll be back."

Quote:

Im not really sure if you are saying my attitude is wrong or right. Or do you mean the attitude i had over on the other forum?

I'm saying that it is sad that anyone would come here and be given advice that would make them feel bad when they got to the point that they felt divorce was their only solution. You stated that divorce was a DB "no-no" which is not true at all and, in my opinion there are folks here failing to understand DB principles...especially if they are saying things that cause a poster to feel they have done something wrong with the decision to divorce after putting effort into saving their marriage.

There are no rules about who should file for divorce first or when it should be done. Legally anyone would be a fool to wait and be put in the position of having to defend themselves in a divorce suit. Emotionally no one should tell us when to feel one particular way or another about filing for divorce. You see, that is a lot of the problem as I see it. The fact that there are people on these forums trying to talk other's out of protecting themselve financially by filing for divorce. That is scary to me.

Quote:

I dont see a group of co-dependants, or en-ablers, I wouldnt want to lable anyone I didnt personally know. I do see people who, rightly or wrongly, take DBing to the extremes, doing ANYTHING to try to save their marriage. That is there choice.

Yes and if you choose to go on a thread where someone is making the choice to allow themselves to be ruined financially and emotionally and encourage them in that behavior then you are plyaing a role in that destruction. I'm not sure how you or anyone else could justify doing that. To say it is there choice is fine. But if you can read what they post, know in your heart that they are on a destructive path and then sing their praises then you have become a party to their problems instead of a solution.

Quote:

There were times when IMPs posts WERE unkind, and rude, and sneering.

IMP's posts were none of these things. I saw people read his posts, misquote him, complete skew what he had said and change the meaning around to suit your own need to make him the villian for having a differing opinion. He point blank asked you to quote him on several points and you were unable to do it. Instead of quoting him and giving clear evidence to back up your accusation that he was bullying you went headstrong into more assualt on him. The only sneering and unkindness I saw on that thread were from those who were disagreeing with what he had to say and ya'll were not even bothering to read and comprehend what he had written.

IMP's mistake was not the advice he gave but failing to see that he was not being heard, that he was trying to help someone who was not interested in what he had to say and continuing to go back and give more advice. He was being disrespectful to Kelly who had let him know that she was not interested in doing anything other than pursuing her husband and disrespectful to himself for continuing to believe he could help her when she wasn't open to constructive help but only stroking.

Quote:

No, he is not a mind reader. Which is why it may be a good idea to leave serious issues such as those out of a post. Why not say something like " I compare what you are doing, to that of a little child who cant keep away from the candy counter at the shop. Its not good for you, but you cant help yourself and say NO !

Let me see if I understand you. We are on a message board that deals with the serious issue of divorce and we are now supposed to be able to know when to pick and choose our words so that we don't cross over and accidently hit on some other serious issue? I'm thinking that might be kind of hard to do. It's a bit hard to deal with the serious issue of marital problems when one is worried about being politically correct and not making the wrong statement. It would seem with rules like that the best thing a person can do it keep ideas to themselevs but, if that is the case then why even post on a board like this anyway.

Maybe Michelle should make it a rule that everyone who posts here has to make a list of all their other serious issues and what is and isn't off limits. That way we can all guard our words and censor ourselves to keep from stepping on any toes.

To say that IMP was being rude when he used the analogy of a drug addict because you or someone else who posts here deals with that problem in real life is really reaching in my opinion. To dictate to IMP the exact words he should use just so he doesn't offend that unknown person with that unkown serious problem in their life is political correctness to the hundredth degree and asking a little much of anyone who might post here. Why not just slap some duct tape over his mouth and not let him speak at all. That way we can be sure that no one anywhere is offended by what he has to say. Seems a lot easier than poor IMP having to be constantly worried that something he says will offend someone...whether that was his intentions or not. Maybe you could just make us a list of what is allowed and not allowed for us to refer to in the future.

Quote:

it goes without saying that there will be people on here who have had lives destroyed and suffered because of those two serious crimes.

I was sexually molested as a child by a pedophile and I did not find IMP's analogy the least bit offensive. I'm sensitive about the subject matter but have enough sense to know that every reference I ever read about the subject is not pointed at me and not made in an attempt to cause me pain. I would also NEVER be arrogant enough to tell someone they could not use the words they needed to use to get their point across just because it might bring up bad memories or relate to some other serious problems in my life. Someone else's words can not do that kind of harm to me unless I chose to allow them to.

Quote:

Im over here to hopefully get support, and I dont need to be wary of posting my thoughts and feelings, incase I feel im being flamed for not doing it the way some people WANT me to do it.

You don't want to be flamed for the thoughts and feelings you post but you don't mind flaming IMP for the thoughts and feelings he posts? Isn't that a bit of a double standard. Kind of like, "I'll say what I want to say and you say what I want you to say."

You keep insisting that IMP was condemning Kelly for trying to save her marriage. He never once told her to give up on her marriage. He pleaded with her to not give up on herself and her children in an attempt to save that marriage. IMP was giving Kelly advice that would have gone a lot further toward saving her marriage than what she is now doing and the sad part about it is this... people who are supposed to be her "friend" and to "care" about her blasted the one person who might could have helped Kelly get what she wants most...her marriage back and, at the same time, retain her self-respect. Instead of recognizing the value of what he had to say you people felt the need to blast him for some reason.

Like I have already said, give me good, hard, painful advice over stoking and coddling any day.
Cathy

Wiser,

You can obviously see the affection that I feel for some of the people to whom I have posted, but I have to admit that your post gave me a real sense of pride. I truly want everyone who comes here to be happy. I truly want everyone to rise above their current situations. And while I know nothing about your situation, it pleases me to see that you are truly interested in solutions for you life.

By all means, come back.

IMP

IMP, I dont that at any point Im trying to get into a "middle ground " here.

I have not posted anything to anyone about you, that I havnt posted TO you.

You say you have friends all over the board who told you to look at my post over on the other forum. Why would they need to tell you?
Its a public forum, I knew you,d read it, If there was anything under-hand in my post, anything I wanted to "say behind your back", I would have done so by e.mail, or not at all.

Of course you were going to read it, so what?
Im not hiding anything.

I have done exactly the same as you and Cathy, in that ive "discussed" you and the way your posts come across to me, to other posters. You have done the same. You have also done so in the privacy of e.mails between yourself and Cathy.

Being sneaky is not my style, and I have much more serious things going on in my life at this second than to let silly debates upset me.

Maybe we should agree to disagree on certain things. I posted to you in a polite way, If you would prefer me not to respond to your posts, or challenge anything you may say, I will not post to you again.
I will be coming on this board a lot, and dont want to have to forever justify and do battle.

Cathy.

Yes , I was under the impression that I had "failed" in my DBing because I had filed for Divorce, and in a relativly short time up to some on here.
Maybe I had been given the wrong advice, when told "let him do the work if he wants a divorce!"

But I had to file for financial reasons, and self-respect.
He didnt/dosnt want a Divorce, and has tried many times to come home, I dont want that, I love him but cant allow him to treat me the way he has , he has to be held accountable, and apart from killing him, all I can do is Divorce him, look after my family, and fight for my rights.

But that dosnt mean that I need to force other people to do the same. We all have a line, when its crossed, its crossed. Mine was listening to MY husband in bed with someone else. Never again will he be in MY bed.
Other people have other "lines", thats up to them.

If you read through all of the K thread, you will see that, as I pointed out before, I never advised her to do anything! I have never , or rarely, posted on Ks thread, and I have said before that there were times I read her thread and thought" she should have a little more respect for herself". I only posted in reply to IMPs growing distain for K, because, in my eyes, it was of a bullying nature. I kept out of it for as long as I could, and ONLY got involved when I felt strongly about his posts.
I have NEVER justified telling K to do something destructive, I have never cheerleaded her, and If I dont have something constructive to say to someone, I dont say it.

IMP did ask me to quote him, and, if you look again at the posts, I did so. I repeated word for word what he said. I gave clear evidence. I was NOT aggressive to IMP, UNTILL he was to me. Cathy your loyalty to IMP is nice, but you are not admitting that he WAS rude, and you are now implying that it was I who cast the first stone? You are wrong, and if you read right back to the very first exchange IMP and I had, you will see that I replied to him politly, then he was RUDE to me, NOT the other way around.

I assaulted him???

Again, read the very first posts. You are wrong.

As for the childish reply about maybe I should give a list of what he can/cant mention, I stand by what I said originally. They are emotive subjects, and to use an analogy of a heroin addict desperate for a fix, or a paedophile looking for a child to molest, to compare someones addiction to a spouse, is in bad taste!

How can you not see that?

Out of good manners I wouldnt post that to someone, on the off-chance that someone reading it may be going through it, its just consideration for others.

Yes, we are on here talking about the "serious" issues of marriage, as you said, and thats not the point I was making.
Dont sprout on about political correctness, when really its all about respect for others, thats all!
Even if it were about political correctness, then , yes, he still in my opinion, shouldnt have said it.
Would it have been ok if he had used Racism as part of his post? would it have been ok if he had used Disability as part of his post? No, of course not. Even a remark less "emotive", lets say for example, weight, illiteracy, I could go on and on, whereas NOT politically incorrect, It is still insensitive and rude, and I believe we have to be accountable for anything we post on a public board that causes distress to others. Its just good manners.

"Poor IMP", as you called him, is not, in my view, "contantly worried" something he says may offend someone, he himself says his views WILL offend some people.
You say you know him, so you know he comes across as speaking his mind and to hell with the consequences. Not someone concerned about offending another.

Again, I will point out that I have never encouraged K to dis-respect herself, I am not a regular poster on her thread, and I didnt cheerlead her or enable her. I merely responded to IMP, as I disagreed with his forcefull attitude, and did so in a non-confrontational way initially.
I do NOT have double-standards Cathy, but when patronized or offended, I have a right to reply.

That Is all I did with IMP. I am not unkind, bitter, or malicious, please dont imply that I have taken a poor innocent poster, IMP, and spewed attacks on him, and unkindness. It was not like that, and Im sure you know that really.+

Cathy, I didnt say you had spoken about ME in particular. I said you had discussed posters and the debate by e.mail with IMP.

Now whose mis-quoting and twisting words?

I have NEVER said I was a topic of conversation, I have cetainly NEVER said there was a huge conspiracy by e.mail to talk about me.

Please dont twist the things I HAVE said, when you have accused me and others of doing just that!
Or is it different?? I cant see how.

But Cathy, even if you had "conspiritory e.mails" about me, It wouldnt bother me. Why would it?
Its not a big deal in my life, I have a life outside of the board, and Im sure you do to, its not so important to me that I would lose sleep over it.

I only posted about the e.mail conversation, because IMP said you and he had discussed it by e.mail, I made NO mention of who was spoken about, or how MANY e.mails were/were not sent. I merely siad that you and IMP had discussed it BY e.mail. Which you did. I cant see your point really! mea

Hi all,
I've gone back and read some of the posts that everyone is referring to here. I'm not interested in taking sides. My general rule when posting to others, especially when I don't agree with what they're doing/saying is to "gently" disagree with them. If they take that well, I may work myself up to the 2x4 level of disagreement after a time.

One thing I always try to keep in mind is everyone here is suffering at some level. If I said something and suddenly that person stopped posting I would not want to have the possible consequences on my shoulders.

I know that this is an "extreme" example, but a couple of teens at my D's HS committed suicide a few years ago. My D was in the popular crowd, these kids weren't. She and I were talking about their suicides and I said to her. You have to be responsible in your dealings with others. You don't know when what you say may affect someone negatively or positively and what their reaction will be.

This doesn't mean that we need to agree with everyone or sugar coat everything we say to them. It does mean that we need to be "kind".

Just my inane 2 cents!!!

Mea,

I said nothing about middle ground. I said you were playing both sides against the middle.

You come here and basically say you want to move forward, but on your thread but then you bought lock, stock, and barrel an explanation that someone made regarding me without taking any time to actually check if what she was saying is true.

Also, you allowed a poster on your thread to talk about my thread, but then castigated Cathy47 for discussing my thread on your thread. You can't have it both ways.

That is playing both sides against the middle.

So you are willing to act nice here but are also willing to throw me under the bus when someone says something that suits your purpose. If you were to investigate, you would find that it was I who stopped posting to a particular poster. You might note that the particular poster who said she could no longer have her own thread because of me, indeed, has her own thread on the survivors board. I saw it when I came on to the survivors forum. And it is obvious that even though she wants nothing to do with me, she had to find time to read my thread, seek you out (is this the first time she posted to you?), and tell you something which you have absolutely no idea if it is true or not. Did you ever think to ask me about the situation? No. That is playing both sides against the middle.

(BTW, I do not read that poster's thread, though I have read some of her posts to others and I stand by everything that I said to her in the last post I made to her.)

The reason someone mentioned your thread to me was to ask me if I had read the reference to my thread in your thread.

So what I am saying to you is that if you want to discuss the content of my thread on my thread, then at least bring up the fact that you had someone post about my thread on your thread and how you praised her courage for a post which is not based in reality. But I will say this. That person actually believes what she is saying. Some people have to make up stories to suit their needs. Of course, it doesn't suit your purpose to believe otherwise. That is playing both sides against the middle.

So mea, don't play little miss innocent with me.

IMP

Cathy,

To paraphrase your advice on another thread, don't waste your time on people who don't care what you have to say.

IMP

Excuse me? How on EARTH am I playing little miss innocent with you????

WHAT basis does that statement have????

Listen to me please. YOU were rude to me way back on another thread.

I responded.
You said some things i found offensive, I posted that fact to you.

You responded.
You were rude again, to me and to others.
WE responded.

I moved over to this forum.
I posted my thread.
You posted your thread, coincidentally or not, continuing your debate on the MLC thread. You did so knowing it would be read and responded to. I responded, POLITLY and asked if we could agree to disagree, as I was going to now be on this forum, I didnt want to feel awkward posting my true feelings, if there was going to be a problem between us.

You again were rude.
I went over to MY OWN THREAD, on MLC, where another poster took the time to tell me that they too had problems with you, and stopped posting as a result.
I responded.

What is all this about???

I reply to you and Cathy in the SAME tone that you post to me. I you were kind, I was.

I have enough problems in my life without all this crap, so why dont we agree NOT to post to eachother in future?

I am not a nasty person and would never have responded to you in such a way if you had been respectfull and polite, in my eyes you were neither.

How in the world Im pretending to be Miss innocent is a mystery to me, but I believe THAT remark alone , and the way it was said, says FAR more about your attitude than it does mine.

mea

mea,

Little Miss Innocent was meant to be disparaging, because I just don't believe you came here for honest discussion. If you had you would have taken the time to find out that what a poster to your thread said was blatantly false, ie she stopped posting to me and that she couldn't have her own thread because of me. I stopped posting to her and she has her own thread. And that is for starters. Rather since she fit your preconceived notion of me, you sucked up what she said hook line and sinker.

I do not care what you think of me and I simply will never post to you again.

IMP

All I can say is.........Wow.

I don't know any of you people, but I must say, this is partly the reason that I come to this board only occasionally lately.

My syle of writing seems a bit at times like I am zeroing in on one person. I want to say that I am not doing that in this post.

First off IMP, thank you so much for starting this thread. I have shared the same sentiments about this board for a while and have shared my thoughts, basically with the same reaction that you are getting. But I do think its fabulous that at least someone is willing to put these thoughts out here.

Doormats. In essence, I think we all have become that at one time or another in our DB process. Its just most people don't like being mats and stop. Others think that it is their path. Well, good for them. They have chosen that path. I just hope they realize someday that they will find very few instances, if at all, where their M was actually saved and they became HAPPY because of it. Maybe they will be the first? I chose to be a doormat, unknowingly. The whole "dark" thing and having kids. I swallowed a lot of emotion. Sad to say, it didn't save my M. Nor did it change XW. Left me pretty much broke, but have the love of my kids. Not complaining about that.

I, for the longest time, have subscribed to the principle that what works for you will not necessarily work for me. After all, my sitch was different than yours. But, I also am not closed minded enough to not listen to something that is completely out of whack either. I have been known to disagree with people on this BB.

This is a place for support. Can anyone honestly tell me that providing positive support 100% of the time does anyone any good? Can anyone tell me that someone does everything 100% correct that they warrant 100% positive support? I say no. No one is perfect. If they were, they definitely wouldn't be on this BB.

If anyone is here is expecting to be coddled back to the real world, well, that simply SHOULDN'T happen IMO. More often though, people ARE too afraid to voice their opinons and thoughts because of exactly what is going on here.

No one WANTS to hear negativity. No one WANTS to hear that their path may be leading them to an even worse place. I just thank God that there are people who do speak up. 2x4s don't feel good. But I do appreciate them, because they offer me a different perspective to choose where I want to go.

This BB is full of people with different backgrounds, we live in differ places all over the world. Opinions will differ. Where does it say that we have to address every single opinion that comes our way. Why can't we choose the ones that we think are right for ourselves?

There is also one fallacy that I believe is on the BB here, that people don't give advice here. Everything we say here is advice. It may not seem like advice to the person who is giving it, but I think suggestions, thoughts, and opinions are advice to those who are receiving it.

If I don't like it, I don't have to take your suggestions, your thoughts or opinions. But they are still tidbits of info to be processed to see if they apply, and that seems to qualify as advice. I don't know, maybe its just me.

Using anologies is very common here on the BB, and some of the topics used will touch a nerve, I have been through it too. But instead of closing my mind and getting pissed that someone could even fathom bringing that stuff up (old more of the same behavior), I givce a little credence to it, process what is actually being said, and apply if necessary.

I haven't read the thread referenced in the previous posts here, so I don't know what was said. But it seems to me that if the person did not like what was typed, then a simple statement saying that it wasn't appeciated and do not use that anaolgy on this thread was not thought of nor done on the thread. Was it done in a private email to someone who didn't even say it?

I guess what I am trying to say is this. I am not going to say stop this heated discussion. But realize, you don't have to give your opinon to those who will not see it for what it is. It's yout choice.

Oh, and before I forget, I was wondering. There is some namecalling and defenseiveness going on in this thread. I was wondering if this is some "more of the same" behavior?

God bless and have a sun shiny day!

Triple J

I know it was ment to be disparaging IMP.

AND that is EXACTLY the same word the poster used to explain you, as you know.

Yes, I would very much appreciate it if you would leave me alone.

I am not at all comfortable with posting my life on this forum, opening myself up for ridicule by you, and wont do so.

I have never had words with anyone on this board apart from you, and, in connection with that, Cathy.

You, on the other hand, have caused friction on more than one occassion, with 5-6 posters that I know of, and thats just the ones I know of!

This started when K moved over to this forum, you were aggressive to her then, so she moved back over to MLC, because you didnt agree with her reasons for being on "surviving", so you chose to follow her over there to continue.
She no longer posts on this forum, because you made her feel uncomfortable.

The other poster stopped posting, temporarily maybe, but stopped none-the-less, because you made her feel uncomfortable.

Now I am going to stop posting here, because you have made me feel uncomfortable.

2 other posters on MLC have fallen out with you also.

Single-handedly you are making people NOT want to post.

I came here for help IMP. pure and simple.

Thankyou for making that difficult for me. mea

This board is a lifesaver in the sense that at the very moment our lives, as we knew them, began to spontaneously combust into a fireball of death, we found a refuge. A place where someone understood the depths of despair that we found ourselves in. There is truth to the saying Misery Loves Company. That being said, I have to agree that the tone on the board as a whole has changed from one of �First save yourself� to what I see as �validate at all costs�. I do not believe that this was or is the intention that Michelle had in mind when writing her books or opening up this message board for all to use.

This thread is full of �old-timers� for lack of a better word, who have taken the time and continue to take the time to stick around even though we did not save our marriages and are not actively DB-ing a spouse. You might be wondering why we do stick around. I can tell you that in my case and the case of my friends, it is clearly a form of �paying it forward�. Without the help, advice and 2x4�s from the others who had made it to the other side intact, I don�t know that I would have saved myself. I find myself shaking my head in disbelief when I see a �newbie� pass over the advice of someone who has come out on the other side and cling to the advice of others who are still so very much in the thick of it all. Trust me, we have all been there. The difference, I think, is the willingness to accept the THUD of the ever-present 2x4! Yeah, it hurt to see what a dolt we were being, but when the dust cleared, we began to consider the advice put out there and began the task of seeing how it could be ADAPTED to our individual situations.

Our bottom line? Let us help you. Take what you can use. Leave what you can�t. Ask us questions. Inquire as to how we personally handled a situation. Joke with us, smile with us, cry with us. Do not for one minute think that we do not wish you well and wish that somehow we could find a way to help you avoid the pain that we know all too well. Don�t attack us on behalf of a friend or for being honest in our replies. We are not the enemy. Part of successfully putting your life back together is learning to fight your own battles with grace.

~ cissy

p.s. You can get up off the floor now....and you know who you are. <WEG>

You know, I am the kind of person who is always willing to doubt my perspective and to stay open to listening and hearing what other people have to say to me. I remember reading the exchange on Kelly's thread and my mouth hanging open because, in my opinion, everyone there was failing to see that IMP was giving good, sound advice and at the same time being accused of being a bully.

I ran some errands and took care of some things around the house this morning and thought to myself that I needed to go back and read over that thread again just to make sure I was not mistaken in my belief that people had not over-reacted.

I did that and I came away even more confused. Especially after what has taken place on this thread.

mea, you have accused IMP here and on that other thread of following Kelly around and that he is on some sort of vendatta against her. It is you that is following IMP around though. You admitted yourself that you rarely posted to Kelly and that the only reason you did that time was because you didn't like what IMP had to say. You purposefully went looking for IMP on her thread and now you have turned around and accused him of the very thing you, yourself did.

IMP called no one any names on that thread. He used words that Kelly herself had used and mirrored them back to her trying to get a response out of her. Kelly, NOT ONCE asked IMP to not post on her thread. She was responding to IMP in a considerate manner and he was doing the same in turn. No, he did not respond to her and tell her how strong she is and how she is on the right track and that and that alone is what got you so pissed off at IMP. You have been pissed off at IMP since he made some comment to you on your thread and you have been the one to chase him around the board trying to engage in a debate with him.

I reread IMP's response to your post to him. He was in no way rude to you. He didn't agree with what you said, but that is not rudeness. You went on Kelly's thread telling him to leave her alone, that he was discouraging her and to not post on her thread. You did that when she, herself hand not even insinuated to him that she didn't want him around. She had, infact told him he could post anything he wanted to and any time.

You have accused IMP of being SPITEFUL, a BULLY, INSULTING and having a personal VENDETTA. You are the only one who has done any name calling, chasing around and trying to start conflict.

You want to believe that IMP was so pre-occupied by you and your exchange with him on Kelly's thread that he actually started this thread to get to you in some way. If that were so why wouldn't he post over on MLC where the heated exchange had taken place. If IMP were itching for a fight that would better serve his purpose wouldn't it?

Let me expain how this thread came about. IMP and I have exchanged two emails with each other in the last five years. Both of those were in the last few days and they both had to do with the things that took place on Kelly's thread. Both of us were concerned at how some women there seem to be hanging on to some destructive behaviors. I suggested to IMP that one of us start a thread to discuss the differences in how people view DB now and when he and I first started posting.

Your name never came up in our emails. No ones' name was used between us except Kellys and believe me, there were no disparaging remarks made about someone he and I both are very concerned about.

I ended up posting on your thread yesterday because, to be honest with you I didn't remember who you were and I wanted to familarize myself with you and your story. That is when I saw the exchange between you and another poster and respond in defence of some very harsh things that had been said about IMP.

IMP stated this particular thread out of concern for what he was seeing and what he thought was destructive in some of the people who post to some of these forums. He didn't start it in hopes of it turnign into the negative debate it has. He posted it on this forum where he knew he would be getting responses from people who had been here longer.

He started it in an attempt to have an intelligent discussion on how some attitudes had changed as far as what he and I and some others feel is the proper way to interpret Michelle's work.

This thread did not turn into a debate until you posted. You've taken it upon yourself to project onto IMP your own beliefs as to why he feels what he feels and writes what he writes. You've once again misconstrued his motives and words and no amount of explanation from him will do anything except get a skewed response in which you take his words and twist them to mean what you want them to mean.

You have done the same thing to me and my responses to you. You have put words in my mouth and thoughts in my head and want to try and change the context of my responses to you. I find it hard to debate with someone who will try and use my own words against me.

This is the problem mea...you don't like IMP because of a statement he made that upset you. He made that statement unaware of your experience in life and in no way intended for it to be hurtful. Since that statement you have felt a need to call him out and point out his mistakes...according to you.

Go back and read IMP's first post to this thread. He managed to express himself without mentioning names from MLC, without insinuating he was talking about anyone in particular. He did it in a way that could not have been taken critically by anyone at all.

You then came on this thread and brought up the subject of the thread on MLC and the heated exchange that had gone on there. Since then this thread had deteriorated into an unpleasant exchange between people who will never see eye to eye and it is nowhere near what IMP had intended.

You are so fond of going on other people's threads and telling them what they should post, how they should word their posts, whether or not they should even be posting there but you become highly offended and defensive if someone even suggests that something you say is out of line in some way.

If you knew that you and IMP had differences that ran that deep why not leave this thread alone? I could accuse you of purposefully trying to start problems here but I won't do that. I want put motives and thoughts into your head the way you do with others.

I will tell you that, in my opinion, you are a highly sensitive person who has...on this thread and others taken innocent remarks made by others and given them your own meaning and then accused that person of trying to offend you. Nothing could be further from the truth.

As for as I'm concerned you can post wherever you want to and I will chose to not respond. I've said all I feel the need to say and I honestly don't think you and I will ever see eye to eye on these issues.

I hope that this thread is able to get back on track and that IMP and those who share his opinion or have an opinion of their own are able to discuss it without someone trying to muddy the waters with issues from other forums and threads.
Cathy

Cissy, I do agree with you post.

The issue for me isnt about the "suger-coating" of advice, and I truely agree that the "validation" of abusive behaviours has gotten out of hand.

How can I explain this??? OK. Obviously, Im at a stage where I NO LONGER want/need to excuse MLC for my H. crap. Im not happy just sitting, waiting, validating, and Ive even less inclination to be his "friend", who needs friends like that!

What everyone seems to be missing is that I AGREE that SOME people are letting themselves be abused, I AGREE that some people are putting saving the marriage before ANYTHING else!

I am NOT one of those people, hense I filed for Divorce.
MY ONLY issue, my ONLY beef, is how IMP tries to force-feed his views, and the WAY he does it.

I think he was rude, thats all.

I came over here purely BECAUSE I dont agree with the way ive been treated, dont want to stand for my marriage and wont be a doormat.
So, if you look at it that way, maybe I DO agree with the concept that "old-time" DBing is best.

I have NEVER EVER put ANY man before my kids, and NEVER will. I, and they, deserve much better.

I do not want to be treated with kid-gloves, the whole argument for me was about "respect" and the fact that I think there are ways to say something to someone WITHOUT being nasty. Thats all.

I do think IMP has valid points. I do think a lot of what he says is very true.
I DONT like the way he says it much of the time.
And I dont like being spoken to as if im retarded, or made out to be a devious person, which im not.

In short, Yes, IMP is correct in a lot of what he says, but the way he says it can be offensive.

THAT is the point that seems to have been lost here. Im NOT arguing about what he says, as much as his CHOSEN way of saying it.

He could make a point without being quite so aggressive, is all. mea

OH FOR GODS SAKE!

I HAVE NOT FOLLOWED IMP ANYWHERE. I CAME OVER HERE BECAUSE I AM TRYING TO HELP MYSELF.

I POSTED A POLITE POST TO HIM. HE WASNT POLITE BACK.

PLEASE STOP MAKING ME OUT TO BE A WAR-MONGERER.

I COULD GET INTO ALL THE CHILDISH NAME-CALLING TOO, IMP HAS CALLED ME MANY NAMES, BUT UNLIKE YOU I DONT CHOOSE TO TRAWL BACK THROUGH ALL THE POSTS TO PROVE A POINT.

WHAT IS THIS, A F****** LYNCH MOB???

I DID NOT CAST THE FIRST STONE HERE, I SIMPLY STARTED A THREAD ON HERE, AND IN A CIVILISED MANNER, POSTED TO IMP, ASKING THAT WE AGREE TO DISAGREE.

HE COULD NOT/WOULD NOT ACCEPT THE OLIVE BRANCH.

HOW DARE YOU MAKE IT SOUND AS IF I AM FOLLOWING HIM AROUND PURELY TO CAUSE TROUBLE. WHAT A CROCK OF [censored].

WHAT SORT OF PEOPLE ARE YOU, THAT YOU CAN CAUSE SO MUCH DISTRESS TO PEOPLE WHO ARE OBVIOUSLY SUFFERING ANYWAY.

THATS NOT COMPASSIONATE NO MATTER WHAT YOUR REASONS.

SAY/DO WHAT YOU WANT, YOU BOTH OBVIOUSLY HAVE TO BE RIGHT, NO MATTER WHO YOU TREAD ON IN THE PROCESS.

DO NOT MAKE STUPID ACCUSATIONS ABOUT ME, LOOK INSIDE YOURSELVES FIRST, THEN FEEL GOOD ABOUT THE FACT THAT YOU HAVE TREATED OTHERS WITH KINDNESS???

IF THIS IS A HELP-BOARD, THEN YOU HAVE NO CONSCIENCE, BECAUSE BELIEVE ME, YOU HAVE CAUSED DISTRESS TO ME WHEN ALL I WANTED WAS SUPPORT OVER HER. I HOPE YOU ARE SATISFIED.

NOW PLEASE LEAVE ME ALONE. MEA

Cathy,

I couldn't agree more with the words that both you and Imp have said here this weekend.

What we are all going thru is a process. Each person has to take the steps one at a time to get to the next level. Many many people here on the board get stuck and can't move on.

I know in my own situation I continue to have trouble working with my X and it hurts more then it should. Imp on more then one occassion has tried to open my eyes to the fact that I missed a step and need to go back and work on it again.

Maybe at first I took offense, but I know now and have expressed many times that I keep falling into a trap with him and need to stop the behavior.

Anyway didn't mean to ramble there - just wanted to point out that many of us have needed to be pushed in the right direction and if your willing to listen, it works.

And yes, the MLC area of this board is loaded with good intentioned people who are stuck. And yes, they do seem to be helping each other stay right where they are. I haven't written over there in a very long time because most of them aren't ready or willing to hear what they need to hear.

Gigi

qoe,

The funny thing about all this and what has come to light regarding this other thread is that, the owner of the thread had not said anything about being offended. The owner of the thread was responding to the advice given. She was standing by her belief that she is doing the right thing and that is her right. She was taking part in the discussion though and was able to do that without becoming angry at IMP.

It was other posters, people who came to her thread who started telling IMP to leave or that he was being too spiteful and such. People were actually telling him to leave, to not post there any longer and the owner of the thread had not said a word along those lines.

That is what is bothersome to me about the entire situation. If I'm posting to someone and they tell me that I have offended them I will be the first to respond with an apology. I will go out of my way to give advice in a kind way and I will go out of my way to humble myself someone if I'm told something I said hurt them.

That kind of response to others should be ingrained in us as human beings. It's not though and, as a result, we have to learn to thicken our skins and to not take every remark that is made by someone as a personal assualt on us and our lives.

I think one of my major lessons during my divorce and that loss was the realization that there is some God awful pain in the world. I had no idea a person could hurt so deeply emotionally until I went through it myself and if you suffer that way and don't learn compassion then something is missing. That is why I will and do go out of my way to not say hurtful things. If I do slip up and say something hurtful I don't want someone trying to tell me what my intent was because I know myself well enough to know that I would never intentionally hurt someone.

My belief is that we have to police ourselves, what we say and how we act around others so that we can live in a compassionate and empathetic way. In our society we also have the responsibility of learning to not take things personally, to know the difference between when someone is making a simple statement or making a statement in an attempt to hurt.

I can't go through life expecting everyone I communicate with to know all my emotional buttons and expecting them to only communicate with me in a manner that allows me to retain my emotional comfort. That would be putting the burden of taking care of my emotions off onto others and I won't do that to someone.

I'm not disagreeing with what you have said. I'm just trying to defend my belief that I or no one else should be expected to watch every word that comes out of our mouths just because it might do harm to someone else.

I think this is a touchy subject to me because of something my ex said to me when he left. He accused me of verbally abusing him. When I asked him what I had ever said to him that would be considered abuse his first response to me was, "you can wound me deeply with the most casual statement."

I'm sorry, but, if someone can be wounded by a casual statement then they are responsible for those wounds, not the person making the statement.

A lot can get lost in the translation when we try and communicate with others. I've learned that if someone says something that I feel is offensive I am better served if I ask them their intent and motives behind their statement. More than likely I will find that the meaning was quite different from the way I interpretted it.

Yes, we have a responsibility to be kind. We also have a responsibility to not take things personally and if we do to make sure we aren't misconstruing the meaning and intent behind what another person has said.
Cathy

To all,

Phew. What a day.

Anyway the first thing I want to say is that let's move forward in a constructive fashion. And let's let bygones be bygones.

The first thing I want to say is that I would like you all to go to mea's thread and lend support. I knew she was going through a tough time but had no real idea where it stood. She is hurting because she fears the loss of her daughter. Just the thought of losing my sons is enough to make me cry yet mea faces a very real situation.

That being said, please, everyone, we don't know all your stories. We don't know everything. Be open. Please tell us what is happening in your life. We are here to help. We are here to help you travel through the land mines that beset you.

I also want everyone to know that my reactions to situation is based on the actual situation. There are times when I sit at the computer teary-eyes as I did tonight when I saw exactly what mea was going through. There are other times that I am tough when someone refuses to deal with life as it is presented. We are adults and can handle adult situations with grace and dignity. There are things which we don't control and we must live with those things.

Now, I would like to get on with the honest to goodness topic which I presented. Basically what is the state of DBing and how can everyone learn to become a better person than they are today.

Finally thanks for unlocking the thread. We have good stuff going on here.

IMP

IMP, a friend called me today first to tell me that she thought she was having a mid life crisis and asked if I thought it was possible in women. I told her that is was very possible. She's dealing with a lot of issues, and because I've been here for just one short (very long) year, I felt better able to talk to her about a lot of issues that would have befuddled me just a year ago. Issues like LD vs HD, MLC, WAS. She listened. She told me some of the things she was feeling.

Long, agonizing story short...Had I not found this forum, no, this whole bullitin board, I would have been totally unable to offer any help to her. I'm not saying everything is going to be perfect for her, but a year ago, I was so lost in my own suffering, I could not have listened to her.

Her pain is as real as mine. My H wasn't sure he loved me. He had an affair. He moved out. She's on the other side of the fence and her pain is as real as mine. Today I can see that my H was in pain as well. I've accepted my part in the (soon to be) demise of our marriage. He's still working on his part.

The 2X4 treatment has worked wonders for me. Without a little tough love from my fellow posters, I would still be lost in the pit of despair wondering why my H doesn't love me anymore. I have made stronger friendships in the last year and re-charged a few that had dwindled. I am happier than I have been in a long time. Except for a bit of a pitfall yesterday, I have become a better, stronger person for being open to the gentle and not so gentle guidance of others. In fact, it's the ones who whack me upside the head that I have the most respect for.

I re-read this whole thread from the beginning. Thanks for making it possible.

Mellanie

Mel,

Thank you for your kind words. And very good post. Yes, I do believe there is pain on both sides. I can tell from my ex that she had pain. And it also took her quite a long time to actually let go. I would say it was 2 years after our divorce. And even today she defintiely shows signs that suggest that she doesn't want to lose the friendship.

In this crazy thing called marriage, there are two sides coming together. One would wish we could communicate better. One would wish that we could lose those old fears and habits we have developed over time, but we don't. The whole experience of having someone leave me did a lot to alleviate those fears and habits. I always say that no one can do anything to me that was worse than what my ex did to me (from an emotional standpoint). So I have no fears when it comes to relationships. I have had one disappointment but that passed very quickly. And I am able to look ahead and realize that better things await.

Better things await. Now isn't that what life is all about. I am an optimist, even in my darkest days, I knew things would get better. It has taken almost 5 years from the bomb for the sunlight to start shining and I finally see things coming into focus. But everything I have done has led me to where I am. I went into the hole financially because of the divorce followed by a layoff after 9/11. I was still an emotional mess at the time and even then the work was sporadic. Looking back, I could have done some things differently but I can't go back so what is the sense in woprrying other than to take the lesson and learn from it.

Also, pitfalls are just a normal part of life. I spoke of equilibrium or balance when I started the thread. Having worked with chemical processes, I found that things don't always go along smoothly. It isn't that they go wildly astray, but rather they go off little by little. What we can do in our emotional lives is to recognize the bump and then make the necessary adjustments to get back to equilibrium. Sometimes the tweek needs to be small; sometimes a little bigger. But the beautiful things is that we can fix the system.

Acceptance is huge too. We have to accept the situations in which we find ourselves. Life isn't fair. We can blame others for our situations but we have to deal with it. Chicken salad or chicken sh*t? We have no influence over outside forces. We have the ability to work to become better people and that is what will carry us through the day.

When I was first going through this marital breakup, I was a mess. I remember calling teo people. The first was my uncle. I called him because my aunt had passed away earlier in the year,. He said in 5 years both of you (me and my ex) will be better people. I can't speak to my ex but I can speak to me. He was right. The next person I called was an old clasmate with whom I lost contact for 10 years. I knew he went through something similar to me. His first words to me were "how is that gorgeous wife of yours." Then I told him what had happened and immediately he change the subject and never mentioned her again and told me what happened with him and that I was going to be fine. He too was right.

I am very thankful for what I have today. It isn't much but when I lay down at night, I fall alseep quickly and soundly. I have worrries but they really don't amount to much because I don't worry about all the nonsense that I can't do a thing about.

Have a great day.

IMP

Hi Imp!

We met over on L.R.'s thread..I just wanted to drop by and tell you how wonderful I thought it was that you shared so much of your life on Mea's thread..I too, sat there and balled my eyes out reading it.

I have always thought of your posts as insightful and worth reading. I think it is great that you are able to spend time reading our posts and giving advice on what you have and have not learned on your journey.

I will keep up with your DB'er thread..

Have a great day..

MTN

MTN,

Thanks for stopping by. I go through cycles with this. There have been times that I have been asked by other posters to come on because they know some of the things I have experienced. There are other times I happen upon a thread by accident and have some thought. From time to time, I like to at least keep up with the people I have met in person through the board.

Actually, the whole notion behind DBing is applicable to most of one's life. No matter where you go or what you do, you will have relationships. Also, I moved from relationship self-help book to general one and some even to help with my professional life. The message is very similar. Be the best you can be. Don't worry about the things you can't control. Don't repeat the same mistakes. Work hard.

And since you mentioned the journey, we continue the journey every day. We have forks in the road and when we take a path we just have to stick with it until the next fork comes up. One of the things I like to tell people is this. You can do so many things but if you don't finish it off, you have nothing. If you were going from Boston to Seattle, and you stopped a mile short of Seattle, you didn't make the trip. While I am not in Seattle (figuratively speaking), I am still traveling. I have had some flat tires along the way but I stop,and fix them and continuwe the journey

Have fun and I will see you here and in other places.

IMP

Hmmm.... look at all the oldies but goodies hanging on this thread.

To repeat what has been stated, if I knew what I was doing or thought I could have done it on my own, I never would have landed here in the first place. 2x4's are required to get us to "do something different".

I was a slow learner and I'm thankful for those that kept me in line!

Now, when can I go to Seattle?

Happy Hump Day!

Frosty,

We still have to keep you in line...but you are getting better. Now fix the flat tire so we can be on our way!!!

IMP

Frosty~
I am thinking that Mr. Imp is a bit confused about who needs to be kept in line.

Seattle sounds like fun!

cissy

Imp ~

This is an awesome thread. It serves as a reminder for those of us who have come out on the other side and a heads up for those who are just starting.

What is one thing that sticks with you even today that you learned as you made this arduous emotional journey? Something that you apply to your life on a continuous basis.

I know for myself,everytime my X pulls another of his stunts I consider that "my anger doesn't touch him, so why waste it on him". Plus, it is so much more fun to laugh at him and his insanity, so thats a little bonus.

cissy

cissy,

Now that a good question. And the answer is simple - I have never given up on me. That's what has pulled me through.

IMP

Hi Cis!

Long time....how's everything?

To answer your question:

Knowing with confidense that there are better days ahead when the one you find yourself living in isn't so good. That all storms pass by eventually. I guess it's a subsection of the PMA concept. This is what kept me going back when times with XW were hard, and emotions were difficult. Usually, I'm able to do the same nowadays but so much has improved since then, and nothing since has come close to be as trying.

Rob

Hey Rob ~

Yeah, Long, Long time, no see. What..almost two years?
Life is good, thanks for asking.

I like your "one thing". To sum it up, basically, "this too will pass". That is a good thing to remember. I hope other oldtimers will share their "one thing" as well.

If you ever decide to hit the oven aka desert, be sure and let me know and the 3 of us can meet for a cup of iced coffee.

(this thread is really stepping on my ability to lurk!

)

~ cissy

Dear Hopeful and Cathy,
I only have one thing to say, you both owe me 17,600 quarters. Sorry about using the public forum for an inside joke, but after all, this is for old time DBers.
When people want to believe in a "proper" position concerning saving a relationship, or restoring one, the biggest step they can make is to say "What am I doing with this line of thinking?......Why do I keep chasing a speeding train?" Until that moment, the "unbomb" as we may call it, you will be in a cycle of confusion, and self abuse. Behaviors Imp and Cathy have endorsed: Take care of yourself emotionally and financially (and financially doesn't mean trying to suck more money from an X or STBX), and understand it will take time. I was in all of your shoes, a newbie, lost, searching and not understanding what was happening. Through a tremendous amount of "off DB Board" communication with friends I met here, I have found my way. A path not leading a partner, not following a partner and not needing a partner, but rather a path with many friends who surround me on the walk. I read of the mentions of enabling, and the criticism of the use of "herion addict or child abuser" replaced with a child at a candy counter. Hello, we are involved with adult situations here, and quite literally sugar coating it with what I see as excellent adult situation examples, is far more truthful. Many of you current readers do not know me. Just know, I have been through every stage of what you are going through. In many situations the helplessness over what specifically to do, over things and situations and behaviours beyond your control, becon the the Serenity prayer. Now, in situations where the marriage has ended, yet this board is being used as a mantel piece to prove the "right" of a poster, the hell with it. It is fruitless and wasted energy which should be directed to self improvement. I have been reading the posts again. Criticism over the "tone" of a post is obsurd. Take the political correctness and jam it. We have had spouse who had little concern over marraiges, committment, children, or the pain endured by the left behind spouse, and we are supposed to worry how words are offending a person reading the post. Know this: talk technique, talk setting a new personal path, talk about ideas which work and those which don't, talk about the care and time someone took to respond to your concern. Don't pick the damn sentence apart! This forum has changed a whole bunch since I was last here. I offer my love, compassion, support for all the caring and hurt victims of societies growing epidemic in regards to committment, marriage and children.
To IMp, Cathy, Hopeful and the many other friends I have met and continue to call friends, a hardy, good to see you all again.
Tom "Pistons Repeat" K

Heya Cis,

Yeah, your rep as a major lurker is taking a hit with this thread he he.

Glad to hear you are doing fine.

You asked a very good question there BTW. In my case, the "one thing" became that way in large part from the support I received here at the BB from some very caring people not unlike yourself. I'll always be grateful for that. Kinda miss those who aren't hangin' around anymore, though. If they are doing better then I'm very happy for them.

Gigi and I aren't too far from where I believe you are nowadays, over in the corner of the oven. Drop me an e-mail, the address is on my bio here on the board. We'll make a day trip out of it and come visit you if you like. Iced java sounds fine!

Rob

Hey Tom, last time I did any figuring you owed me buddy, not the other way around. Don't come collecting until you get your facts straight! Don't ever forget...I'm keeping a tab and I'll be the one to collect one day. Better start saving your money up.
Cathy

Robbie, that was another big one for me. I used to live in dread of bad things happening. I doubted my ability to handle things. I've thought so many times in the last few years that I have been given a valuable gift. My dread has been taken away because I know that no matter how bad today or tomorrow might be, it is not terminal.

As long as my children are happy and healthy I think I could handle most anything. Not that I want life to take a nose dive or anything but, I now know that if it does I am equipped to deal with it and come out the other side wiser and appreciating the good stuff that much more.
Cathy

Oh Oh Imp!!! WTFers are brushing off the dirt and re-emerging....Diving you say Ole Redness from Tennessee? Oh I have been saving up for you dear lady, I sure have. Funny how the heart can do deceptive things to people under stress. It is so easy to follow the heart the "way things used to be, or the way I was brought up to believe" I should behave. This is a very challenging moralistic time we live in, and the challenge of keeping our heads straight as to what we want in life, what we can provide ourselves in life, what brings us joy without another person in life, is something I have learned to be a priority....the partner sharing these desires will either remain, come back, or be someone you do not even know yet. I spent time looking though the gun sights at that damn mean, vindictive "other person" who "caused" all this pain I was suffering. Nope, I allowed the actions of my walk away to cause me to take a painful view of my helpless situation. My gunsights pointed low "Shoot low boys they are riding Shetland ponies" type of brigade then aimed high as in "God, how can you let such horrible things happen to someone who loves You so much?"
Did I take pleasure "winging" my beloved walkaway.....yep. Did it accomplish anything....nope. In the 5 years since the bomb, 4 years since the divorce, I can only tell those of you new to look in the mirror. Look that person in the eye and say "Ok, what did you do to contribute to this mess?", "What can you do, ole green eyed gray haired guy, to change YOUR behavior?" Notice in the mirror there is only you. Not your spouse, not your walkaway, not that cheating SOB who left you for the tramp with D cups. Nope, only you are in the reflection. It is important to have a support group, I couldn't have kept the semblence of sanity I have (so my friends tell me) without this forum. I tend to have a bit different approach when posting, there may be some sarcasm, there may be attempts at wit, but that is my outlook on life. Always find the best in a bad situation.....And what I discovered was a newer, happier with myself (there was a relationship in the near past), less reliant on the acceptance of a partner or others kind of guy. This is not to be construed as non-sensitive to those posting and in need. It is a choice I have made. It is an apparent choice my old comrad IMP has made. When it is mentioned to "take care of yourself", it is flat out, without a doubt the only thing you can do to help yourself and give potential salvation to your relationship which is in turmoil. Invest in your children, invest in your family and friends, invest in yourself with a hobby, a church group, volunteer work, bike riding, reading, music, throwing rocks at traffic,...whatever it is, get to it. The ONLY way a walk away is going to return with a new and changed vigor for love and the relationship is when he/she sees that you are moving on in life, for yourself. I know, never made sense to me either at that time in my turmoil. But a few of us have witnessed a tremendous renewal of love in a formerly near dead marriage. Cathy knows of a particular couple on the brink of divorce in my neighborhood, he having an affair. God put me near her then, to give the website, books and care for her. And she got tough as hell with the man in her house. She took the 180 immediately. Well, I met with her last Friday at an eye doctors office. She is thankful to all of you on this board for the support and caring. Nope, she never posted. She read, and took what she needed to save HERSELF first, and the marriage followed.
All cases are different, and I would suspect critical elements could offer objection to my words. That is ok with me. A good friend in Iowa ( I will only mention her pet name of Silo-ho) offers this statement "Act in haste, repent in liesure". Bottom line, patience is key, patience with yourself, patience with your actions, and patience with the line at Walmarts.
Tom (Don't let your meat loaf" K

Oh Flo da ho, how nice to see your name on the board again. Remember when we helped you reach your 1000th post? You did one word posts for several nites. Being a slow reader, that was perfect for me. Glad to hear you are still putting on the shin digs in Heavens Waiting Room. I understand there are large piles of clothing at the Florida border deposited by your "guests" huh? People take this "clothes optional" to heart. Take care and we shall watch at you approach 3,000 posts. I am going back into my cave. Spray painting Pickets Charge on the wall keeps me from witnessing the debauchery of life people are doing to others. Plus it is close to the beer fridge.
Impster, about the US Senator from your beloved Massachusettes......ahem! No, not the fat drunk womanizing one, the other one!. Perhaps another thread should be started before I break the scope of yours here.
Tom "May the force be with YOU, not the loser who walked away" K

Imp,
Good response! The success of a venture: improving yourself in this topic instance is thus - 80% of success is just showing up. Show up every day to find the best to improve yourself. The other 20% is beyond our control, sometimes good things come our way, sometimes bad things roll on the path. You mentioned "in 5 years you will be fine". You are fine and happier because you didn't allow 5 years to pass without being honest with yourself, and readdressing the path you wanted to take, the destination you wanted to reach. We reach goals every day, hell I am thankful for my feet hitting the floor beside the bed everyday, for decent health (despite my treatment of my body), and for the Pistons chance of a repeat of a championship, and my children.
You know something, Michelle hasn't changed her outfit on this website in 5 years! As they say, if it is working, don't change it, if it isn't, then change it. It must be working Michelle.
Tom (southern thinking stronger than ever) K

For me I would have to say that there are a number of things I have taken away from this board...one of the most important being this:

Healing is a process. There are steps or levels that you must come thru at your own pace in order to truely heal. We can't move on until we as a person are ready. Looking back at past mistakes it's easy to say I should have done this or I should have done that...but at that time we weren't at a place where we could. We can't blame ourselves for not being then the person that we are now.

It's like the old saying about wishing you were 21 again but knew then what you know now. How things would be so much different. I guess we could say the same about our marriage. Wishing we were back there but know then what we know now. Things would have been very different indeed.

I think that holds true when we look at our X. If they are going to heal and become a better person then they need to go thru steps and levels as well. It's easy to see the level that they might be on, it's even easy to see when they have dropped a level, but we can't make them move on. They have to do that on their own. Maybe they will and maybe they never will but we don't have the power to change that.

Here on the board, we can point other's in the right direction. Point out things that maybe they could be doing and point out things that maybe didn't work the way they had hoped. We can even give stories of others who were in similar situations and express what worked and what didn't..but again, they need to move on on their own, just like we did.

I think a good example of other DBers and the steps they need to take on their own is this: There are a heck of a lot of women (men as well, but mostly women) on the MLC area who's spouses are just plan treating them badly. We over here in surviving want so badly to tell them that they shouldn't be taking it, that they are being used, that they are being abused. When we do say it, they hear it on one level but don't seem to be able to truely act and correct things.

Why is that? Because one can't walk away from abuse unless one has the self esteem to recognize that they don't deserve to be abused. So..in those cases self esteem is the first step in getting out of an abusive situation.

I guess all I'm saying is that we have survived or are very close to the end of that journey, be careful when we go back and talk to people who are much further behind. They want to hear our thoughts and wisdom but aren't always ready for what they are going to hear.

I'm not sure if any of this is making sense but for me it's an important thing to remember.

Gigi

gigi,

It is most definitely a process. That fits well with my original notion of equilibrium. We have ups and downs and eventually they dampen and we can become more stable. I won't do the math, but it works well here.

Also, you mentioned that people going through this need to move through it on their own. One of the things that has bothered me though and one of the reasons I started the thread is because in some cases I have seen a reluctance to engage in conversation. And I don't know if I totally agree with the notion that people are not always ready to hear. This is personal to me, but I always wanted to hear. The problem I had was synching up my emotions with my brain. But I can't imagine what I would be like today if I wasn't willing to hear anything back then.

Thanks for stopping by. Are you taking any classes out there in those low-cost state universities?

IMP

Imp,

When I say that people aren't always ready to hear, it's just in reference to people not being ready to accept the reality of their situation. We have to continue to share with them to help them move to that reality. This can really take some time!!

No classes for me yet. I need one year of residence before the cheap rates kick in but yes, I am planning on going back to school at least part time.

We've bought a house here and I'm back working full time as an accountant. I'm still suffering from accounting burn out but I'm at a small company with extremely friendly people and that really helps. Still hoping for a career change somewhere down the road.

Still working on my own issues. Still have trouble working with the X but the 3,000 miles has made it much much easier. Now it's just try to keep him informed as to S16's statis (courts say I have to) and keep tabs on S19. S16 is bouncing back finally and D24 is doing wonderful here. S19 (who stayed in Mass) is the only one who still struggles thru. Wish I could get him to move but he just won't.

Heard you guys were getting wet this week. Cold as well I hear. We had a nasty hot weekend but things cooled right down yesterday - only hit 91!!

All from here...Gigi

WOW, it is a real ho down. TomK, do I have quarters for you. Thing is you are going to have to come to the FL Party to collect. Would love for all over you guys to be able to come down. Flo da ho here has had a great experience with all the people on this board. Being able to laugh at myself (Remember when I thought WTF meant Women That F.... Tom, who all were in your stable? Silo ho, Flo da ho, Hiho, Moe ho.....
What I have come away with is the fact that I can not control anyone else and since I realize I do not know how I will react to a situation, I have learned not to judge anyone. My advise to the newbies would be to make sure you take care of the financial end right away while the MLCer is feeling guilty. That changes and they begin to believe you are the cause of the breakup.
I have purchased a small townhouse very close to where I work. It is more than enough for me. I don't have to worry about yard work. Nursemom moved from Ohio to within 5 minutes of me. She and I are having a big singles only birthday bash on Sunday (mine is on Saturday and hers is on Monday). We may have as many as 80 single people at our party. Tom, your quarters will be adding up since you had Cathy and Moe give me lessons on how to excel in quarter collection.

Gigi,

It depends what reality you mean. I chatted with a friend (non DB) the other day and she said she and her H got back together after a few years apart. Her reality was that it was over and done with. So one reality is not necessarily another. Reality may not be what we it appears to be today.

When I speak of the discussion, it means talking about issues surrounding a situation. It is not a judgment that a marriage is over or not. Also, it means being open to anything that life has to offer.

I am a firm believer in saving marriages and doing everything possible to save those marriages. And I also believe that someone can give up too quickly. So it is my inclination that it is better to go the extra mile even at time the odds may seem insurmountable. The main thing though is that you live your life according to your beliefs and be true to your inner core.

One of the groups that I attended was through the church. There was a woman there who was divorcing her H. She had given him 28 ultimata (she was very sure about the number) because he was an alcoholic. Her reality was that she was over and done with the marriage. But that is what it took for her. She stood up and said that is that.

My reality is that I am happy. And that is the one of which I am sure.

IMP

PS - you definitely need a new career...lol

To the WTFers,

The boys and I had to go to school for the science fair tonight. We were walking down the hall and I hear one of them say WTF (ie said the actual letter double u, tee, eff). So I asked do you know what that means. The both said yes and that is was on some montage for one of the graduating classes where the kids wrote a quote down or some such thing. All I could do is laugh and thing wow, this WTF stuff sure is getting a lot of miles this week.

IMP

Ahhh Yes, Portage lake, frozen until mid July, and the ole fellow pictured is bass breeding area on the bottom is my guess. I too am a much happier person than I ever believed I could be. I took a slightly different route, reverted to some codependent, I wanna be needed behaviour in recent years.....but have emerged....finally from the divorce of 4 years ago. All of us would love a caring, honest loving partner who holds values and integrity to the highest degree. I dare say, as age creeps on, everyone gets a tad bit more cautious and weary of a repeat performance.
Maybe less willing to trust, maybe letting events of a current relationship triggering a remembrance and subsequent response from a past bad relationship. I for one, will trust again. It is my nature, but, and this is a big but (as is mine), it will not be a one sided adventure again. Each of us has a right to recieve benefit from a relationship and just not give, give, give. I used to think that was selfish thinking, but have learned it is the only way to stand up for yourself, set safe boundaries out of love, and the dignity and self respect can provide a greater love of partners. Not sure if you followed all that, but the bottom line is what George, Cathy, Cis, Hopeful and other Oldsters have been saying: Take care of yourself and prepare to be on your own. The strength you gain for yourself becomes more appealing to the partner, whether they "bite" or not, you still become a winner for yourself. For the newer folks, please understand that "ho" was used in the most endearing manner and not in the connotation if which Freddie (Wild man) always wished to define it as. So to Big Red Ho, little Sprite Ho, Cheeseho, and so many more left off because of memory jamb, thanks again for growing for yourselves, and for sharing with us that growth, as we are on the same path. Each of us has picked up the other when we went astray. Each of us has reached for the loving, caring hand of the other, and picked them up when asked. In my mind, the time on this board was a wonder which I don't believe I can repeat in my life. Many of you newbies will grow the same way with those in your stage. I remember reading the advice of oldsters when I was new and wondered how in the hell they could possible believe in what they wrote. Now I understand. I was treated as a dog, to be kicked on the way through the door or booted out. As Hawkeye (aka Silo momma corn ho) has stated, maybe we can learn more from the living in the moment as a dog does. So what are you putting in my bowl tonight. Pant, Pant.
Tom "Gravy train is a matter of thinking" K

Thank you all. Not a newbie, but wish I would have seen this when I was. I probably wasn't ready then, but tonight I think I finally reached my limit. WTF!

Mel

Tom,

Are you sure I didn't say "Act in haste, repent in liesure suits?"

Seriously, I understand what you say about trust. I think for me, it is not so much about trusting another person - that seems the easy part - people are either trustworthy or they are not. My intuition serves me well in that respect. But I find that it is about trusting MYSELF with the ability to handle the shortcomings of another human being. Maybe I'm less tolerant as I get older?

I'd agree with you that all of us would love a caring, honest loving partner who holds values and integrity to the highest degree. And I also believe that there are far worse things than being alone or on your own. We've learned that along the way. It just takes being kicked a few times.

I understand about the codependency issues. I still fight the urge to rescue sometimes. It's nice to be needed for a while but in the long run, I've discovered I'd rather be wanted.

Maybe that's what sometimes bugs me about my dogs - they are awfully needy. LOL

Take care

Silo

My apologies IMP - sorry for the highjack.

Silo,

What hijack? I have always thought that if it comes up in the course of the conversation, everything is fair game.

Let's see what you added here - trust, codependency, the ability to live on your own, and wanted to be wanted. That is some of the stuff I expected to hear on this thread.

So please, hijack away, you only further the discourse here.

IMP

Imp,

Your right I do need a new career!! My April books were scheduled to be closed on May 25th...Only have the three small compaines closed. The major companies - who knows! Hell I can't even manage to balance one of my checking accounts!

To make matters worse, it's month end again and I'm craming to get all my May payables paid and the cash in the bank.

There's a finance committee meeting in two weeks and I'm not even close to being ready!!

But, what am I doing today? Answering posts!!

Gigi

i truely dont want to start a huge battle by posting here. but i would really like to discuss some things, here on this thread, away from my thread. if anyone feels uncomfortable about me posting here, because it may not be just what you want to hear, i will respect that and go right back to my thread. but if you are open to discussion, i would like to throw my 2 cents in.

kellyagain

Kelly,

I csn't imagine you starting a battle anywhere. Your opinion is as important as ours. We may not agree with your point of view but I've been on different sides of this discussion with you before and have never been treated with anything but respect by you. Just as I have tried to return to you.

You say anything you feel the need to say. There might be some here who disagree but they will certainly show you respect. So, feel safe here, please.
Cathy

Kelly,

Please fell free to post. Everything is fair game. Lay out your positions. Back them up and we will give back opionions. The real reason for this forum is to discuss ideas. I started the thread because I wanted to do so away from the particulars of any one situation.

We look forward to hearing from you.

IMP

ty,
i have to agree with one of the posters, though i cant remember who right now, that the 6 stages of MLC, though interesting, have maybe turned into some sort of bible here. it is such a good crutch sometimes to be able to blame away all the problems on something completely out of your control.

and speaking of control, i think that when ppl say you have no control over someone else, well to me that is hogwash. no, we cant force someone to do anything, but in a r as deep as a m, we know just how to act and react to "make" our S act a certain way. to this day i know exactly what to say to have my h say "ILY". but it is the degree of control that varies from person to person.

and i think that is where DBing comes into play. i dont believe that everyone's S's have temporarily lost their mind, and if we can just hang on and wait, one day our S's will wake up and realize what they did wrong and come home.

with DBing, you need to figure out what you MOST want to change, and find solutions to get what you want. it would be different if it were just a decision like buying a car, or finding a job. these are important decisions, but you can easily sell a car and get a new job. here ppl are asked to look at the very core of thier lives, and create goals to getting what they want the most. since it is such an emotional powerful goal, a goal that will affect the rest of thier lives and their children's lives, you can see how some ppl can get obsessive about it.

i also dont think that D is the best answer in most cases. drugs, or abuse, ok, but i dont see too many cases of that on the board. and i know mental abuse can be just as bad, if not worse then physical abuse, i think it is very hard to say, just when a S's behavior is abusive, unless the person who receives it is obviously victimized. i dont think you can say, well he is having an A, and she is allowing this abuse of her to continue. an A only has the impact that the ppl involved give it the power to. for example, there are lots of swingers in this world, who trade h's and w's regularly. though this is an extreme example, the point i am trying to make is that not everyone FEELS the same way about A's.

i think in most m's on this board, there were mistakes made by both the WAS and the LBS. and over time these problems created bigger problems. yes i see a ton of A's on this board. but i dont look at the A as the problem. but i bet that if the WAS posted on this board, we may very well be sitting here agreeing that they were right in getting rid of thier S and found true happiness somewhere else. there are 2 sides to every story here, and i think the answer to most of the marital problems on this board can be found on the flip side. on the WAS's side of the tail.

i think if we can look back at the whole m, and see where we contributed the most to the actual m problems, and fix that, then we have a good chance of turning what looks like the fast road to D to the road of a happy, loving m.

i believe, since most of us have been "dumped" and we dont have the full power to make things right, that anytime at all we feel we have had enough, that it is perfectly Ok to end this DBing. and i also feel in my particular case, that until i fix my past mistakes, i cannot just give up, because i will spend the rest of my life wondering and "what if'ing".

and i believe that if this m doesnt work, that i am not bound to repeat the past. because i am working on every problem i can think of right now, and i will take this knowledge with me into all of my r. be it a SO, a family member or even a co-worker.

but i truely believe and i think i will always believe that in almost every case on this board, if ppl would just look at what was right in the m, and compare that to what was wrong, they would have the answers they need, answers they already know, to how to fix their m and improve thier lives.

kellyagain

Hello Kelly
I won't debate the issues of why we should or shouldn't stay in a marriage.
I was married 30 years, when my X-H decided that his OW was the best thing for him.
I will say that I think he made the right choice now.
I never thought I would ever be able to say that.
To stay with a man that is cheating on you, is not in my book a marriage.
I wish you the best.
God Bless

hi kelly,
Everytime I hear about the so-called 6 stages of MLC I cringe. There is no such thing. Someone over in MLC made it up using some of actual stages of grief from Kubler-Ross, and it's become an MLC forum urban legend with a life of its own. It makes so much sense because some of the so-called stages were, well, plaguerized, from well-researched and documented grief stages! However unlike Kubler-Ross, there is absolutely no empirical evidence of any kind about these so-called MLC stages!!! MLC is not a new thing, it's been studied over and over for decades. Where are the studies and literature on these stages? Sorry, it just burns me up when I read such nonsense and see people pinning false hopes on it.

Back in 1999 when I frequented that forum, many of us did a great deal of reading and research on MLC, we compared notes on our experiences, but no one ever pretended to have "the answers" or make up stuff to explain away bad behavior and give people false hopes. Just because something worked for one person, doesn't make it a "theory" or the "rule" for everyone else. We are all so desperate when we first come here, grasping at anything and anyone that gives us any sort of hope. The thing is that the hope has to be real in order for us to be successful. The focus back in 1999 was much more on ourselves, and on that which we could change and contol. There was less emphasis on trying to control the WAW behavior and what they were doing, since we all realized that had no control over that. It wasn't about waiting them out, or figuring them out to manipulate them into coming back. It was about what WE needed to do, the solutions WE needed to find. There is NOT one solution fits all either. It was up to us to figure out what worked and what didn't work. It was about being honest when you messed up and having people set you straight when you lost your focus. Those of us who have lived through MLC, affairs etc and still wanted our marriages, know how tough it is and how agonizing.

I want to share with you from my own reading and research what MLC is and isn't. Take it or leave it for what it is worth. First, MLC is a normal stage of human development that everyone goes through, just like the terrible two's and adolescence. But just like there are some out-of-control teens there are out-of-control MLC people engaged in regressive and destructive behaviors. Many of us LBS on the board have experienced the latter from our spouses or former spouses. It is perfectly normal for people at mid-life to look at their lives, evaluate their accomplishments, realize that they aren't going to live forever and make adjustments in their lives. This is very normal. For many people, MLC really is but a blip on the radar screen. But for others, it represents totally out-of-control, destructive behaviors. It's dumping marriages, dressing like teenagers, acting stupid, getting themselves a whore and sports car. The other thing about MLC is that it does not go on and on for years and years and years. Another fallacy and urban legend from the MLC forum. Crisis by defination is a state of disequilibrium. I don't care if you are a chemical or a human, the natural progression is for anything in a state of disequilibrium to seek equilibrium. That is the natural order. People simply confuse their spouses decreased level of functioning with a continuing crisis. What happens is that once the equilibrium is achieved the level of functioning can be increased or decresed depending upon how well the individual coped with the crisis. In other words, the hard times can make you stronger, so you emerge from the crisis with improved coping skills and life skills, or it can weaken you, so that your functioning is substantially diminished, and you are beaten becoming a shadow of your former self. Many WAWs who supposedly continue their MLC for years and years are no longer "in MLC" but rather in state of diminished functioning. Simply put, (pardon the language) they f***ked up their lives and this new f***ked-up life we see is their new reality. It ceased to be a "crisis" but a way of life.

Marriages do survive MLC, affairs, and substance abuse problems. A very good friend from back then, Wonder Woman, had her marriage survive both her husband's MLC and affair. The key to that survival was that in the end, he wanted the marriage. It was not until he saw that he could seriously lose her forever, that he took the step to change his bad behaviors. In other words, it is only when you truely let go of your spouse and give them the choice that you stand a chance. Otherwise, what incentive do they have to change? They can have their cake and eat it too. So why bother? What I see that often goes on in the name of DB is a great deal of attempts to control and manipulate the spouse. That totally misses the point, and the sadest of all is that the spouse sees right through it, driving them further away.

I think what some people miss is the element of personal responsibility. What I mean is that us LBS were not innocent by-standers in the marriage. Having said that, I want to add that no matter what we did, it was still wrong that they handled conflict in the marriage by running away, having affairs and other assorted bad behaviors. At least we recognized that there were problems and tried our darndest to fix them.

I can't emphasize enough how the need is to look at ourselves, our actions, our behaviors. We need to do this, so we do not repeat our same mistakes. We need to assume personal responsibiltiy for our lives and the direction we take. We are not responding to what the WAW does or does not do, we are executing our goals. We are being proactive. In essence, we are being our own terrific selves, and remember, that's who they fell in love with! It is their choice to come back or not. We cannot control their choices or their God-given free-will! One of things that I cherished the most from this board is how much people here helped me learn about me. For me, lessons learned included learning to let go, learning to assume responsibility only for what is mine and learning that was an OK person. In essence, I found myself again.

I think this is the piece that sometimes is missed now-a-days. The focus needs to be on looking at yourself, your actions. What are the things that you are doing that are working? What things are not working? If you've tried something for several weeks and it's not working, do something different! At some point in the process, may come the dreaded realiztion, that no matter what you do, there is no change in your spouse or the situation. As hard as it may be to accept, it could be that yours is a situation where quite frankly the spouse beyond caring what you do, has already made a choice against the marriage, and perhaps even for someone else. If that is the reality in a given situation, then it is destructive to yourself and your children to pretend otherwise.

See DB isn't about manipulation. It is about changing your behavior as a means of reaching out to the other person so that they can be free to demonstrate to you the caring that they feel in their hearts. But, if that love and caring just isn't there, nothing you can do can MAKE him love you or want to be with you.

Throughout the Dbing process, it is important to take care of yourself, emotionally, physically and financially. If he truely cares and loves you, doing so is a non-issue. Is it not true that we want the best for those we love? We want no harm to come to them and want them to be protected. But if on the other hand, he does not care what happens to you, then it's matter of survival to do protect yourself! Either way taking care of yourself puts you in a win-win situation. Abusive behavior of any kind is intolerable. It is a boundary not to be crossed, whether it be directed at you (you in the general sense, not you specifically) or the children. Maintaining your self-respect is actually good DBing and something a person who loves you would want for you. It's also important to protect yourself financially. Often when there's an ow or out of control MLCer they go nuts buying toys and spending money. People that I know from this board have gone bankrupt, lost jobs and businesses. Sometimes it may mean filing in court to protect your assets and your children from their out-of-control spending. It may involve stepping up to the plate and making some tough, tough desicions.

I think that the key here is to look for solutions to save a marriage, leaving no stone unturned, while at the same time being real about what you are up against. Look long and hard at who your spouse is and who you are. Never lose your self-respect for anyone. Give it your best and honest shot, for as long as your efforts are productive. Set aside rose colored glasses and see things as they are. Don't keep false hopes, make informed desicions. Rememeber that you have a friend in you and you will never be alone. Happiness comes from within you. You already have all that it takes to live and happy and fulfilled life. You just have to find it inside of you. The skills you learn will last you a lifetime and help you not to make the same mistakes again.

MC

This is an interesting thread. To respond to somethings.

I was just thinking the other day, we all make choices in our lives, in our marriages, together. Right? So it seems to me, the WAS's create this life for themselves.........and when something happens, something that they have caused, and they can't fix it, it is easier to run. It doesn't matter who will get hurt in the long run, as long as they feel ok.

Everyone reacts different to things, some people who lose their jobs after many, many years, react with suicide, some react by making things better.

I think the WAS's don't like their lives anymore, and it is simply easier to run. Pretty selfish if you ask me.

As far as the board teaching me anything. I learned not to be a victum, to take care of myself, to take care of my children. And to LET GO LET GOD.

I mean when you really think about it, 30 year marriages, 25 year marriages, 17 year marriages, are you going to tell me these people were unhappy all this time. NO! They're running, and believe me they will continue to run, always looking for their happiness, not caring who they hurt in the process. It's all about them.

I guess it still angers me, so many good people getting hurt..............not perfect people, but people who would of loved nothing more then to save their marriages. Something the WAS's spouses found to hard to do.

MC,

I agree with every word you said.....every word!!!!

It should be said on the Mid Life Crises thread too.

What you wrote was exactly what I got from this board, I was lucky to have found such wonderful people as yourself at that time.

I was willing to try, but never willing to give up my self respect.

Mary C.
I remember the 6 stages of MLC.
I got reprimanded by the poster of that thread many years ago, because I said that I did not believe MLC was that cut and dry.
Please consider posting your post on the MLC forum.
It is the best I have read in a long time.
Take Care
God Bless

MC, Your post really gave me a light-bulb moment!

What a brilliant post.

From day one, I was sceptical about the "stages", but thought , what do I know, if people much more experienced than me say there are stages, then there must be!

I could never quite get to grips with that fact though. Sometimes I wondered if the stages were actually thought up by a MLCer to excuse the behaviour.

I think my H DID have a crisis, but like you said, it was for a reletivly short time, and now its just a way of life, because he,s dug himself such a deep nasty hole, he cant dig himself out of it. Dosnt have the guts, or strength, to do it.

The MLC forum has been a life-line to me, and Im staying on it, I have good friends there, but I dont agree with the "stages", and I dont agree with how some LBS turn the other cheek and allow affairs to be carried on, while still living with a spouse.

I agree though, that the post should be posted over on the forum, I think it would help a lot more people than the "stages" will, Its something that has to be read by us all in my opinion, and I want to thankyou for writing it, I agree with everything youve written.

PLEASE, post it on the MLC forum, It will help us so much. Mea

I would like to make an even better suggestion here Pammie,this should be the VERY first chapter for newbies,or whoever to read and abide by before ANY attempt at Dbing,as I have felt before any finger pointing is done you must realise that for every finger pointed there is one pointing right back at ya,thats where Dbing is beneficial,and not before. I have been a lurker now for over a year and this has got to be the BEST thread I have ever read,it also made me more aware to myself that I have indeed been guilty of so many things mentioned here,manipulations,wanting to control the situation,etc. Though I have always felt I was a "middle roader db er,I also am painfully aware that I have been handed some pretty nasty abuse from my W,yes,I have stood up on many occasions,but I have also let so much slide in the way of verbal and emotional abuse,no wonder there is no respect from her,and quite frankly,guess I deserved it because I did let it slide. But I finally said "no more" just recently,it hurts yes,but I am aware of what I shall gain from this,ME. I feel she is truely an ill person,and would stand beside her IF she DID something about it for herself(she has admitted "issues"). But not til she makes that committment to HERSELF will I bother with her again,I have no interest in her "as is" any longer. I am one of those people that married way too quickly and the M lasted only a short time,I have never seen our first anniversery together,but I also realise she may well be that "N" personality and now may have to face the fact I only married an illusion,sad but true. Anyway,not many know me here,only a few, but I am OTO and want those who I have met here,Nish,Mal,as well as others that I am doing just fine!!! And am surviveing and doing ok especially now that I have DROPPED that rope!!!! OTO

ooops sorry bout the double post!!!!!!!!

Hi MC, I just want to say how much I agree with all you have said. I have been around along time and often questioned the stages also the adulation given to those who have "gifts".
I too was m for over 30 years and thought and wanted to just die, the bb back then helped ME survive, made me feel I could survive and was worth something.
Sadly my m didn,t make it. My h is still with his OW, nearly 4 yrs now, they have a life tog.
I am so glad that I was urged on and supported honestly! otherwise I could still be stuck on false hopes and stagnating.
God helps those who help themselves.

MC,

The other MLC urban legend going around is that MLC actually last on average five years. There are actually people in the MLC area talking about ways to "stick it out" until they come thru!!!

Makes me nuts!!!

I do want to say however to anyone reading this and still feeling that there are six steps in MLC - there are similarities of behavior when someone is in a MLC. That fact can't be denied. But you can not predict that your spouse is now going to do X and Y because someone elses spouse did X and Y. It just isn't that easy.

Gigi

Hi all!

Sorry I haven't had time to read this whole thread (its long) but I see many people I have met in person or known on the bb for a long, long time.

Just one comment in response to what MastateFlower wrote about manipulation. This is right on. Think about being in a new R. At some point, you want to say ILY. When you say it - do you want the other person to say it right back (well, of course), but then - you have to wonder - did they say it because I said it and they feel the pressure to respond in kind. Wouldn't it be better for them to say it at the time they truly feel it and not because you "prompted" it.

I learned more about manipulation from a new R than from my M. Sometimes we don't see our own behaviour until its too late. We all know how to get what we want, but its not as satisfying getting it when we had to be manipulative to see results.

Just my 2 cents.

Barb

I honestly think that an MLC is an excuse for a person to go off and have an affair with some bimbo or bimbee. It's their way of doing what they want, when they want to whoever that want to. It gives them license. They can call it something. And it relieves them of any responsibility for their actions. They don't have to be adults for a while. If it feels good do it. They're like teens. Only worse because they have families that they just discard - like garbage.

All I can say is WTG! Cathy.

Perfectly said Cathy, perfect.

Mary & Cathy:

Both of your posts have hit the nail right on the head. Both of you were there at the 2002 Tampa party when I had a bit of a breakdown. I came to the party looking for a "magic cure" for my marriage. I had bought into Conway, the 6 stages etc. Like you said - I didn't want to hear from anyone who didn't tell me I could save my M. At the party - I found out that WW was the only one who had. I heard that many did not. I wasn't really ready for that. But that was my eye opener. I grieved then, but from that day forward began to make more progress towards recovery.

Yes, in some ways I feel I had been fed a line. But false hope is sometimes a tool we use to cope. It can get you through the roughest part but you can't stay in denial forever. I might have accepted the death of my marriage sooner had I not bought into it all, but I still have no regrets. I doubt many of us do except that we might have got through it all faster.

Good posts here! Excellent advice. Unfortunately, those who really "get it" are usually those further down the road.

Barb

Hi Frosty, my x bought the red sports car FIRST! yes big and shiny and sporty and mega bucks! why didn't I quit then?
Next came the gym and new clothes etc, not too sure when the OW came on the scene sometime inbetween.
This is a great thread but there will always be questions not answered or what ifs,especially in those with long term m whose h/w just walk away with no prior history of unhappiness.
I do believe in MLC and I think for men like my x who gave up everything incl. his children to live with OW their pride will never let them return. Too many people have had their lives torn apart and turned upside down for him to ever admit he was wrong or OW not what he wanted.
He made his bed and now he will lie on it if it kills him and judging by what I hear he's heading that way much quicker than he should be ---if his life is so wonderful.
I also believe that the OP are a breed apart. Mostly man haters! I kid you not and had bad relationships with their Fathers also had bad first m or relationships and then set out to reek havoc on anyone with a good marriage. Honing in on those displaying MLC -I also accept that the LBS had faults that led to the downfall of the m and not realising how the other partner felt. A taking for granted and a lack of true communication, we are all guilty of this I think.
It is often said the OW is a bandaid and not the cause-not too sure about that one.It is also said they do not last. I have seen plenty to suggest they do last and we will never know how happy or not they are.
Gosh don,t know where all this came from! maybe my swan song.
For those of us 4/5 years down the road I guess we now have some insight and understanding and maybe see more than those just starting off and clutching at straws.
The dilema being do we say what we see or what they want to hear.
I for one am so thankful I found this site, too late to really apply any of the DB principles but not too late to save myself.
My x just walked and I heard or saw him maybe 4/5 times in 4 years. I had the quietest D in history. It just happened.
Where I would have been without being able to pour my heart out in the dead of those long nights I will never know,for I had no where else to turn, I was too ashamed to tell anyone what had happened and I didn,t want people to think badly of my H!
So thank you to all for being there for me and long may the true spirit of this site continue.

I don't post anymore on MLC because I just don't have the time to dedicate to this board anymore, nor probably the patience. Last time I did some reading over there, I had the urge to shake a few people to say "What are you doing, fool!" I know that approach would have been misunderstood, and people wanted to hear the touchy, feely, rah rah stuff. I figure whoever wants to hear from survivors, know where are and will ask here.

I think the information is out there for people to find if they want to hear it and when they are ready to hear it. I do think people lurk and read here, even if they don't post.

In fact, If they really want to learn about MLC, what it is and isn't, just do a google search or visit the book store or local library. There is tons of info out there from research studies that say it doesn't really exist to all kinds of theories about it's existance. Part of what they need to figure out is even if it is MLC in their case, if it's a marital crisis or something else. Pinning it on the wrong thing will lead folks on the wrong path. We all asked plenty of questions and did tons of reading years ago and I'm sure folks on that forum have figured out to do the same too. I was never fool enough to believe the first thing anyone said and I give credit to the folks over at MLC that they don't either and will reach similar conclusions about some of the stuff out there. It'll become obvious. People tend to trust their instincts and if something doesn't make sense, it just doesn't.

Cathy, please clarify something for me. Did HB make up those stages herself or did she "borrow" them from Jim Conway? I remember a couple of years ago reading something to the effect of her taking credit for them being "her stages" and a kind of a "revelation from above"? Is my recollection faulty on this?

Let's face it, for whatever reason, some people get something out of being "stuck" and blaming God for their inability to do much about their situation, by saying it's His will. Otherwise they wouldn't continue with the same behavior. My understanding is that you "let go and let God", that you allow Him to reveal His will, not stubbornly impose yours. He helps you to help yourself and not be afraid. I got this from a Catholic priest. But then, what do I know, other than this approach works for me and has given me peace. I remember reading long ago something to the effect of "Do you want to be right or do you want results?" Once they tire of doing the same thing over and over without results, they will do something different for themselves. Until that time, nothing anyone can say will be of help. Again, I must emphasize it is a matter of personal choice and personal responsibility. When the time comes, they'll know where to find us.

Nice seeing so many oldies! Now I just have to get off this darn computer, I've got to reorganize and clean out the garage to make sure my son gets out all his stuff! He's closing on his house tomorrow and is coming at 6 pm with a truck to pick up the furniture and other assorted stuff he's been storing here.

Have a great holiday!

MC

To all,

There is much good stuff going on here. I have been reading and not posting even though I have thoughts. Just been so busy and having had a chance to be as cogent as I would like. Also, there is no such thing as a hijack on my threads because I like things to go wherever they may.

If there is one direction that I see and I like, it is that this stuff really is about getting ourselves in the right place. We cannot make someone else do what they do not want to do, but we can control where we take our own lives. If there has been one thing that I have learned from DB and all the other self-help books that I have read, it is that I work on the things I directly control. And that is what I do now. And I am much happier.

IMP

This thread has helped me SO MUCH!

Im no-where near as "together" as all you old timers, (no offense ment!

) but seeing it from your prospective has, without a shadow of doubt, opened my eyes WIDE!

I can remember posting as far back as 7 months ago, that I thought DBing had "held me back" in terms of moving on, because it was giving me false hope, but also because it was making me try to look at H as someone who was suffering a illness, and making too many allowances for that. For a long time I read, re-read the "stages", read and re-read Hearts Blessings posts, and thought I was somehow inferior, because I couldnt deal with my H in the way she did. I strived to be a "better person", much more giving and forgiving, trid to give a "mona-lisa" smile when really all I wanted to do was either cry or throw something at him.!

Now, I feel that DBing wasnt to blame for holding me back, It was the WAY I was DBing, by doing it in a way that my gut instinct was telling me was wrong. I didnt know any better, listened to people I thought were experienced and who seemed to know all about the MLCers and the way things would pan out, if I took the advise offered.

I WANTED to be as serene as H.B , and other DBers that I looked up to. I TRIED to be that tranquil, peacefull person, who could listen intently to the bull-[censored] coming out of my Hs mouth, and VALIDATE. I was wrong, totally wrong, about the whole concept of DBing. But everything said on this thread, is what my gut told me was right! I feel Ive wasted SO much valuable time, and I also feel that, yes, DBing HAS made my situation worse, but only because I was being led to believe I should be doing it a certain way, which has in my opinion, drawn out the process, I think, I KNOW, I would be much closer to either healing the pain, or being back with H, if Id been told things a little differently.

By forever trying to be something Im not, I lost even more self-respect, invited even more bad behaviour from my H. I mis-understood, and became a doormat. I enabled him to treat me badly. He got away with things I would have NEVER tolerated, and I condoned things I would have never put up with.

In looking at it THIS way, I feel, if anything, its CAUSED the marriage to be more damaged, than if Id stood my ground, been more "me".

And after reading this thread, and realising how the DBing SHOULD be done, I feel a bit bitter, to tell you the truth, because I was led to believe that everything I was doing was for the best, when, in reality, it was making it worse.

None of this "smile sweetly and be a good friend" when someone is kicking me in the teeth and stabbing me in the back, felt right to me.

I became NOT serene, but SIMPLE! I felt SO inferior because I struggled to keep my mouth shut when I wanted to tear my H off a strip. I felt I wasnt a good person. I am Irish, with a typical quick irish temper, but Im still a good person, and I still wouldnt knowingly hurt anybody, but I didnt feel "good", because I was trying, and failing, to be too "saintly".

I wish Id known then what I know now. Maybe my marriage would have been saved.

mea

mea,

I'm so glad you stayed in this forum, it will help you so much. It will help you heal, it will help you get stronger, it will help you move on. I know it was rough here at first and I'm so glad that is over. I was lucky enough to have come to this surviving thread right away.......4 years ago, and it helped so much.

I am a firm believer in listening to my instincts, my gut feelings, they've usually steer me in the right direction. So listen to yours.

On the surviving thread that's just what we learn to do, we all help each other, it's a really nice place to be.

Give yourself time to heal Mea, give yourself the time.

Have faith in faith.

Friend

Thankyou FRIEND, Im glad IMP started this thread, it has helped me realise that what I thought was right, was wrong. Or what I thought was wrong was right, If that makes any sense!

I also feel VERY gullible, and not a little pissed off, that I was SO ready to buy into the type of DBing that, in my opinion, made my sitch worse.

Ive wasted a year doing what I felt was wrong, when in reality, if Id been given a better understanding about the real principals of DBing, my marriage may have been saved.

My H and I have seperated before, more than once, but always for short periods of time, I think the longest was around 4 weeks. It was always his initiation that got us together again. Because, I believe, he respected me, I wasnt a doormat and stood my ground with him, I had spirit.

When we split this time, it was much different. in that it wasnt after a blazing argument, it was as a result of other stresses that got out of hand and rendered us both unstable at that time.

I truely do believe that, if id been "mea" that he knew, we would have been ok.
Instead, because it went on for a little longer than Id thought , and I was told about this site, I feel that because I tried to be much more lenient, was convinced he was ill and needed my understanding, I shot myself in the foot!

I gave him permission, if you like, to treat me badly, to have an affair and still be able to come to my home and be treated as a friend, I tried not to ask anything of him, so he was able to shirk his responsibilities. I was told not to put any pressure on him, so I dealt with things alone.

Suddenly, it was like there was a new, better Mea to him. He could do whatever he wanted, no questions asked. He could avoid any conflict, so wasnt held accountable for anything he did. I remember once when he had let me down, over a lift to the Hospital when I had to go for some test results. I was so angry. I ended up getting a taxi, and was late. That evening, I posted here and was told by Snodderly, I believe it was, that I shouldnt get into it with him, I should just say quietly that he,d let me down and I was a bit late , then drop it. I did that. That just gave him the go-ahead to let me down any other time. There were no consequences, if he could let me down over an important appointment, and I say nothing, he could do it over other things. And he did. Again and again. WHY? Because it was easy. I wouldnt say much, try to speak softly and smile serenly. Isnt this being a martyr??

Sorry if I sound a bit bitter, thats because I am. Maybe Im having a particularly bad day, but right now I feel cheated. Cheated out of using the B.B as an effective aid to helping my relationship with my H, because I knew no better. I listened to people who I thought were experts. I was given "bum" information. I was duped into thinking that, if I become a certain person, my H would find me warm, considerate, homely, agreeable and devoted. In reality, it made me, and him, disrespect me.

If saving a marriage means becoming a Stepford Wife, count me out. THAT should have been my reaction.

I just want to quickly say something about the MLC forum.
There seems to be two different types of DBers on it.
Im a regular poster to about 6-8 others on that forum. They are strong, fiery, determined women, all of them. But Im aware that this isnt the general concensus over there. Maybe they are in the minority, but all I can say is that the group of Friends I have over on that forum, are not typical of the DBers portrayed on this thread, maybe thats why we have flocked together, "like attracts like" etc.
There ARE some of us over there who are not willing to be emotionally abused, or allow our children to go without food so we can buy self-help books!

Some of us actually agree whole-heartedly with certain comments made on here. We arnt ALL robots who allow ourselves to be walked over, while trying to "hang in there" untill the "stages have all been visited, or re-visited, or whatever, treating Jim Conways book as a bible. (yes, I got sucked in and bought it. But I never got further than the first chapter, I thought it was very over-rated, and , frankly, a load of old rubbish). mea

Hi Cathy, must have been cross-posting, I take SO long to post, I keep stopping to think, by the time Ive replied to someone, more posts have come on!

THAT IS SO BIZARRE! Ive JUST used the stepford wives as an example! Uncanny!

Im rushing off now, got to walk the dogs, but id like to read and respond to your post in more detail, youve made some brilliant points. back soon! mea

Mea,

I don't think you should be angry about doing what you did with your H and I think one day you will not. I was the same way. I thought that if I stopped being myself (which was the thing he told me he didn't like) - and become this person who was always nice to H and listened without becoming angry, that he would stop what he was doing to his family and come to his senses. He didn't.

But that doesn't mean that others will do the same. I gave him the opportunity to try to work out our problems in a civil environment. It's really a cooling off period. A time to listen. It should hurt no one. Of course I was angry when his behavior got worse, and I didn't put up with his crap for years and years. I gave him ample time, but not too much of my life was wasted on someone who didn't care. Maybe that's why I got over it more quickly. Not that it still doesn't bother me that my family fell apart - it does. But I can't help that. It was out of my control.

But I think the important thing is to not allow these WA's to take complete advantage of us because we still want to be married to them. When I found out tht H was stealing assets, that brought me to action. That was the thing I would not stand for and I stopped him in his tracks. I looked at it this way: If he did really love me and want for us to end up together, he wouldn't be devastated by me getting what I was entitled to. PLUS how can a man respect a woman who doesn't look out for her children? Those were driving forces for me.

There's different people on each of the boards and we do tend to gravitate toward those who share our basic philosophies (politics aside). But that's the way real life is anyway. I don't fault anyone who tried to save their marriage and family. I wish more marriages were saved, and if this place could do that, I would jump for joy. But the sad fact is that in the USA today divorce is rampant. I do think that taking an adversarial stance in the beginning makes things harder for everyone - expecially the kids. So DB'ing is a very, very good thing because it makes it less so. But the key is to not allow the WA to take advantage of us forever. And also to not allow them to take advantage of us and make us poor. We have to make business decisions and take our hearts out of those decisions. I read this morning about someone who is worried about burning bridges. If they leave you and tell you that you don't mean anything, how would making sure that you protect yourself and your children burn a bridge? I sometimes don't get it. Despite being sadder than I've ever been, I still managed to stand my ground where I needed to. My marriage would have failed even if I hadn't. At least I managed to keep my children in good schools and in a decent home.

Hi Cathy, Ive never used the term Stepford Wives before, how strange we were posting and using that term at exactly the same time!

When you told me to think back about the "stages", It made me realise and recall things. Ive never connected it before, but yes, the stages are the same type Ive been through a few times myself, and Im pretty sure Im not having a mid-life-crisis!

5 years ago my oldest friend was shot at point-blank range, in her face, by a man she was having an affair with. She tried to end it to go back to her Husband, and this man followed her, knowing her route she took home from her work, blocked her escape with his car, and killed her.
Id spoken to her less than 30 minutes before.
Looking back, I can recall the different stages, the shock, anger, etc, and, like you pointed out, it is JUST the same as the so-called mlc stages. I can see now where this idea came from.

Just like the stages I went through when I found out about my D addiction, again, similar to the mlc stages.
And again, the same stages I went through when my H left. You are so right, we ALL go through these stages when a crisis enters our lives, a death, a break-up, whatever it is, when anything that majorly impacts on our emotions, we go through those stages. I dont know why ive never connected it before, but when my Mother-in-law died, I bought my H a book all about the different stages of grief. If you shuffle the words around a bit, it could be posted on the mlc board, and THERE are the 6 stages of MLC!

So, when our Hs get to that "certain age", and mid-life makes them want to stop the tick-tock of the ageing process clock, re-gain a bit of youth and have some fun, yes, they are having a MLC, but NOT a continuing cycle of stages, or a long drawn out version of the grief stages. Because, when its looked at logically, how is that possible?
If that were the case, wouldnt it mean that the stages of grief we all go through when a loved one dies, would go on for the 3-8 years stated in the MLC stages? So in comparing the stages of grief with the stages of MLC, and coming to the obvious conclusion that they are the same, normal feelings and reactions to ANY major crisis, that just blows the theory that these W.As are having a crisis that is lasting years. It proves, in my eyes, that what was a genuine emotional crisis, for a while, then becomes either a habit, a way of life, or an excuse.
Does that make any sense, im not wording it very well i think, im a bit tired and sluggish tonight, but I know what I mean!

The only stage I cant equate to any grief stage, is the "Revisiting" one, when H.B says that they start to reconnect, start to come out of the tunnel, then go back and revisit ALL the stages, before coming out fully! In my mind, this is an excuse to have ANOTHER last fling, mis-behave just a little more , The Last Supper!

"Yes, I think I DO want to come home, work on our marriage, but I just want a LITTLE more fun, just to be on the safe-side, you wouldnt want me to come home and have to leave again, would you? Besides, theres a cute little blonde that I havnt managed to get into bed yet, I just need one more shot at her, then I,ll come home!"

Revisiting? Revolting, more like!

Cynical? Me? You bet I am!

mea

Hi I guess I should chime in.

I to fell into the trap of the six stages.Not that I full discount them.They were helpful in a way.But I held onto them so tightly that I thought if I just sat on the curb and waited it out I would see him going through the stages.I watched every word he said.I tried to analize it.I would take something he said and take it apart and rearange it so that it fit the profile of someone in mlc.I know he is in one.But does that mean he is off the hook because he has what I determend to be a mental disorder.Hell no.You chose how your going to react to a problem.he chose to run far and fast.

My part in this was that I didnt let go.I wanted so badly to make my marriage work.I didnt do it out of love.I did it out of fear.I dont adjust to change well.

I was afraid I couldn't do it alone.That I would fail.

Now I realise that maybe I didn't love him any more.

My sitch is that I have never worked outside of the home until now.I have five children.I thought that I would end up on the street.I didn't trust myself.So I held on for dear life to the six stages instead of taking care of myself.

Now not only am I not on the curb.I'm in the middle of the street going at my own pace.

Now I'm not sure the motives for the stages was.

But I do know that when we are first starting this journey we will hold on to the only hope we have.It felt like life support at the time.Need I say I have pulled the plug.My marriage has flatlined and I'm the better off for it.I ahve grown so much this past 22 months.I wouldn't trade anything for it.Not even a healthy marriage.

I'm a much more rounded person now.

Before it was nothing to me to not even get dressed in the morning.After all who was going to see me.I was a stay ot home mom that took on the roll to the exclusion of me.

Maybe I'm the one having a mlc.And he is just plain nuts.Maybe he is doing what is right for him.Everyone has a breaking point.He reached his before most men would.That makes him weak.I dont need a weak man.

So here Iam almost 2 years into this.And I have grown.I have five children who love me.They can come to me anytime they need.And boy do they ever.

I have a strong relationship with my four sisters and my mother.

What does he have.His girlfriend and her three kids.His don't even want to talk to him.Except D10 who still holds out hope he will one day come home.

His life is an empty shell of what it used to be.But that is his choice.My choice is to love myself and let him go.

I try not to hold anger because it makes things worse.Now when he is angry I don't react or I set boundries that protect me from his anger.

In other words I take care of myself first.

Well I'm starting to ramble so I should go get ready for bed.I'm tired.

Later Friends.
Briget

Guys,
Like I said earlier, the so called 6 stages were simply altered based from Kubler-Ross stages of grief, which have been well-researched and documented over time and in many different cultures. Conway apparently used them for his theory and HB gave it her spin. Please remember that this is only ONE of many theories out there, not the Gospel truth! Think about it, if you are indeed examining your life, and don't feel happy about it, would there not be a some sort of a sense of loss or grief? Of course! This is why it all appears to make sense on the surface. But again, it is but ONE theory!It bothers me how one man's theory, or perspective on MLC, was interpreted to mean the gospel truth for all.

In fact, if truth be told, WE ourselves, the LBS, were the ones who going through the grief stages! Just to review Kubler-Ross with those that don't know her work, these stages are Denial (this isn't happening) Anger (why is this happening? It's just not fair!)Bargaining (I promise I'll do xyz if he comes back, if he could only see all these changes he'd come back...) Depression (I don't care anymore what happens) Acceptance (no matter what happens, I'll be ok) I really believe that real DBing, which is finding solutions to change your situation, helps you to cope and gets to to acceptance a great deal faster.

The problem is that if you are so focused on what the spouse is doing, (if he's in and out of the tunnel, if he's depressed, if has this or that mental illness), you take the focus over what you can control YOU. You end up not really focusing if what you are doing that is working or not that can make all the difference. That I think is the greatest travesty.

Actually, what some folks are doing on the MLC forum, IS NOT DB!!!! It may be Jim Conway but it's NOT DB!!! DB focuses on SOLUTIONS folks. Waiting around for your spouse to come out of the tunnel and monitoring his progress, is not solution-focused!!! The only way that using Jim Conway, or HB's or any one elses theories for that matter, will ever relate to DB is IF and only IF those techniques are working for you AS PART OF A PLAN OF ACTION. But guess what, if they are not working, if it doesn't apply to you, DUMP them, try something different! That I think is what people miss. DB is based on finding solutions that work.

One other thing that I think is damaging by focusing so intently on the WAS an not on you, you end up sabotaging saving the marriage. This happens because relationships are dynamic. An action, causes a reaction that causes a reaction. YOU change how YOU relate, how you react, and so will he. BUT for it to really wotk that change has to be genuine, within you. Otherwise it becomes a manipulation!

You guys mentioned the stepford wives, and it made me chuckle. Back when I was doing it all wrong to save my marriage, I tried to become the illusion of the woman I thought my ex wanted. I quickly learned that no matter what I did I could never be good enough. I did things that I'm ashamed to admit because let's face it I begged like a fool. I thought it was part of doing anything. (OMG Cathy, you remembered the garage, damnit! LOL I did delete that post, a few months after posting it, thank goodness) It was not until I found me again that my marriage even had a chance. One thing that I learned (I hate to say it was from the ow) is that I was way way too accomdating to my ex. She allowed him to grow up and he needed to do that. Unfortunately, I was too nice and he didn't need nice. Had I been a little tougher with him sooner, who knows. See he knew I'd never leave him, but he wasn't so sure about her, so he shaped up. Dr. Phil is right, we teach people how to treat us. The day I was able to confidently look my ex in the eye after one of his tirades about how awful I was and wouldn't change, and say in calm voice, "I don't have to change because I am me and fine just as am, deal with it!" That day changed how we related to one another. Shame it didn't happen years earlier, I might still be married. Anyway, I digress.

My point is that when we are ourselves and feel good about who we are, there is an aura of confidence, that makes them take a second look, especially if they have been taking us for granted! The best thing of all, is that you really win, no matter what.

One thing that I see over and over is this notion that a MLC lasts years and years. Folks, no crisis does. Humans find a way to adapt to that reality and they do. Those curious about it, please read up on crisis theory. In fact if you read about MLC, most of the info out there does not talk about an actual state of CRISIS lasting this long, but rather seem to discuss the normal life changes that occur in mid-life as lasting that long. Kinda like teenage years, young adult years etc. People like Jung and Erickson theorized on this. I think the problem lies that when life stages are discussed, the word "crisis" is interchangeably used to describe those transition years of mid-life and the actual crisis that happens to some during that time.

The problem is that sometimes there is an actual crisis not so much of the spouse, but of the marriage itself. There is a woman by the name Gail Sheehy that talks about the stages that marriages go through, and one of the ones she talks about is "mid-marriage crisis". Sometimes the timing also coincides with the mid-life age of the indivduals involved. I think DB techniques are especially successful in these cases. But if you are off on some tangent, diagnosing your spouse with MLC or depression, you will miss a golden opportunity to save your marriage!

Another point is to focus on the characteristics of couples that thrive. Get more of what that which works into your relationship. From all I've read, it means an intradependent healthy relationship in which you both are independent capable people that come together to make the whole more than the sum of its parts. It's the next step after independence. A strong sense of self happens first then you come together. So in other words if you find that you "need" him, you gotta long way to go. You first have to "not need" him. This is why focusing on you is the first step to getting the relationship you want. When the growth happens within you first, then it's geniune, then it's not about you controlling or manipulating anything. From that internal change in you, you will find that the way you treat others and respond to others is different.
You bet he'll notice that change!

The changes in you gives him an opportunity, which he has the free-will to take or leave. If he stays, you both are on the road to a good life. If he goes, you are on the road to a good life. Either way, you are ok!

I can't believe the time! Been helping my son and wife move all day, and back tomorrow. I was planning to go to bed early! LOL Need some sleep. Nite all.

MC

We're all posting at the same time, similar thoughts... what can I say, great minds think alike! LOL

Now I really mean good night!

MC

All I can say is I wish parts of this thread were actually called..."Before you do anything else ... read here."

I read DR after my WAS left. It was given to me by a friend who thought his marriage might have been rekindled had he found it sooner and practiced more of the DBing. Then I read the six stages of MLC. I've spent years in the medical field...not psych...but I really latched on to the MLC stages as I think my husband was / is in MLC. I tried validating his thoughts, going on dates with him when he wanted to see me...no pressure..practice patience, etc., ad nauseum. I did see a neurotherapist immediately after he left and was diagnosed with ADHD and treated...that was probably the best thing that came of his leaving and the statement he couldn't stand my disorganization and mental fog. I felt like a doormat and the whole concept just didn't intuitively "fit" with me. I wanted to save my marriage and my family. I realized I had been a contributing member to the problems and I sought to resolve issues. I worked hard on myself, working through lots of childhood abandonment issues, and other traumas in my life that brought me to be the person I am. I struggled more as I came to know there was an OW, even though H said there was not when he left. All in all, I continued to feel like a door mat. Husband came and went as he pleased, we talked when he wanted to talk. I kept it short and mostly non-R. I went to counseling. I grew and finally after much introspection, self-analysis, and work on me filed a complaint with the court asking for counseling with my husband, etc., and he responded with a D petition. I felt I had failed and somehow just had not gotten the whole concept of DBing because I really did made significant changes FOR ME but it didn't help my marriage of almost 25 years.

Gigi posted to me on and off throughout this whole process and at that point made some comments to me that she felt I was "ready to hear" after six or seven months of pain that felt like my heart was being ripped out of my chest. To this day, I thank her!

My point in all of this, I guess, is I wish IMP's thread had been on the board then and required reading. Well not all of it...but most of the posts that are here. I MISSED THE WHOLE POINT. I might have missed the whole point anyway. There are so many traumas in my past...all of which I have obviously survived...that my family is what I have lived the last 25 years for. Of course, I have been happy and received a type of gratification from my family but I never celebrated myself.

I still have my ups and downs. Anyone who would like can visit my thread (Metamorphosis). I have thought about going back to my first posts in WAS, kids grown ... (and there are three different endings to that) but I really don't think I can re-read all the pain I was going through at that time. I still cry sometimes and I'm still sad sometimes but I truly am in the metamorphosis stage. I have stopped jumping at my H's whim. This man is not the husband I love and married. But then, I was not the woman he loved and married either.

I had coffee with a friend yesterday who has been friends with both husband and I. The discussion came around to the D and the fact that if husband changed his mind and wanted to work on our relationship I would still do that. She asked me what would be different? A month ago I would have said, I don't know. Yesterday, I told her it would be different because I have changed. I have conquered most of my demons. If H wanted to work on our relationship today I would agree but I would not allow him to tell me what the problems are, as he sees them, and then walk away leaving me to turn myself into a pretzel to figure out how to solve them. I would suggest that we sit down, discuss the problem, discuss how it was a problem for each of us, and discuss possible solutions. If he would not agree to being a participant in the solution then I would not agree we had a problem. I would also not hesitate to bring up problems, if I saw them, as I have done in the last 10 years. I always felt that I was somehow the "cause" of any problems. Her parting comment, "Wow, you have really changed."

Thank you all...this is the best thread I have read on the whole BB and I intend to be a regular visitor.

kc

Sorry about the digression but much about this discussion spoke to me. I am at the different point my life but if anyone on this thread can bring this wisdom to help me think through my issues, I would welcome it. I don't have thin skin so you don't need to watch your words... visit my thread in MLC forum titled Love -- Compassion Vs. Respect
DeepBlue

Mea and others:

As MC stated, it is about solutions, trying the things you tried to keep a connection were not wrong. I know one poster who was awesome and ended up having an affair with her X on the OW (hi Ditto). It was her way, but I can also say that she did it with her eyes wide open. I think that is where some of the doormat mentality comes from. Michelle cautions people that this is a tough thing to do.

I liked reading Conway's book from the standpoint that I was looking for answers and found some. My X did have an MLC, no doubt. The difference is that while trying to be kind and understanding, I didn't let it stop me from trying to become stronger and better. I really used it primarily to keep myself in check when my thoughts would get bitter, after all "it wasn't about me!!!!"

The way that I see our current society, LBS's often become bitter and victims, never trying to understand or let go, only feeling that someone did something to them. I knew I didn't want to live that way. The information on MLC is a guideline (IMHO) to come to terms with what happened and not obsess about our inadequacies, nor build up hate. It was how I could look at the reasons I was given and "dismiss" them to some extent. This allowed me to work on what I really needed to do, but it also helped me be kind (not submissive).

Stepford wives - we must have all tried that. I call it the summer of Jack's discontent (way before I found the books). I actually thought I could be biker wife, party wife, perfect mother and perfect housewife... and not say a word when he played volleyball with his "friend".... I'm happy to say I failed miserably.

mea - Please don't beat yourself up, regardless of what you did or didn't do, you were trying to save your marriage. The one thing that everyone on this board agrees with is that people that value their marriages are the best!

Take Care!

P.S.... It's hump day!