Vacillations of a WAW Come Home IV

Divorcebusting.com

I'm 33, my W is 32, S 9, and D 4. We've been M 10 years, but were highschool sweethearts (had a 1-year breakup during college times). Recap:
- 1st bomb occurred 10/01 and included the "I love you, but not in love" talk where she told me that she's been unhappy for a long time--with M, being a mom, regrets, etc.
- 2nd bomb was 10/02. Pretty much the same conversation, but she concentrated more on the M being a failure than the children so much. It was after this second incident I found DR.
- 3rd bomb was on 12/28/02. Found out that my W had a PA--from 12/01-9/02. But after this bomb my W has said that she is back to work on our M.

My last thread is Vacillations of a WAW Come Home III.

So, now that a few months have gone by my W seems to be back to her old self...pretty much. At present I'm trying to get a handle on my own feelings. It's not so much that I'm harboring venomous feelings about OM or anything. It's more that after all I've been through, I expect to have a fulfilling R after many years of not having one. This is somewhat problematic as I'm impatient and my W is still trying to get her head straight.

I am eating crow right now because of something KAW said to me today on my previous thread about...well basically...chilling out. I pretty much came to the same conclusion, but hearing it from someone else helped, and I applied it with a fervor today. As a result, I heard an ILY, which I've only heard a couple times since bomb 3. Thanks, KAW.

So, these last weeks have been a strain on me and it's affecting my W. This, as a result, is pushing her away, which is contrary to my goals...naturally. I am now recalibrated and ready to rock!

jethro

#1!!!!!!!!

Wow, I don't think I have ever been number one in anything! Cool.

I am happy to hear you are back on track (the ILY must have felt great!). Keep working! I think that after the dust settles and our Ses are working with us, we, the betrayed, sort of stop our DBing attempts in order to let them shoulder some of the load. Kinda like, "Damn it. You hurt me. It's your turn to show remorse and make me believe you want to stay. After all, I've done this...this...and this to save the M. Now you have to do something for me." Unfortunately, that isn't reasonable.

We have to be the one to still shoulder the load as our Ss work through the sh!t the led to the gap in the M, which will, undoubtedly, lead us to rethink our small but significant role in the drama that led to the A. (Incidently, RUSH has some great lyrics from a song on Permanent Waves:
Just between us,
I think it's time for us to recognize
That the gap between us,
Leaves room,
For you and I to grow.").

Besides, my MC told SAM and I that everyone past thirty brings a lot of baggage to a new relationship! So, with a renewed sense of purpose let's get back to work and save our Ms!!

Yo SBH.

Quote:

"Damn it. You hurt me. It's your turn to show remorse and make me believe you want to stay. After all, I've done this...this...and this to save the M. Now you have to do something for me." Unfortunately, that isn't reasonable.

Yeah...it's kind of like that. Self-serving, but true. However, for me it goes a step further because I have been more present in my R with my W for many years...not just the last couple where she's been wacked-out. This is what's getting to me more than anything...the fact that I've tried very hard over years to make her happy and I get paid back this way. Hey, I'm no Boyscout, but I've been pretty good...if I do say so myself.

Quote:

We have to be the one to still shoulder the load as our Ss work through the sh!t the led to the gap in the M, which will, undoubtedly, lead us to rethink our small but significant role in the drama that led to the A.

Yes. I am redoubling my efforts in this way. Interestingly enough, JJ once said, "Don't get in your S's mood." Well, this has been my biggest problem to date. I get wrapped up in HER drama and get down. Thing is, my W operates off of me, so if I'm down, then she gets down. Thus, the circle of pain continues. I have to take it upon myself to break that habit because she hasn't yet...if she ever will. Besides, it's good to disassociate myself from her moods anyway.

Thanks SBH. Rush rocks!

jethro

RANDOM HUG ATTACK!!! {{{{{{{{{{Jethro}}}}}}}}}}}

Thanks for the wake up call last week!

By the way, it occurs to me that you guys over here in Piecing have a much harder job than those of us on our own...once the initial six months of shock are over, we can move on. I am not saying it's the best place to be - just try watching those travel TV shows about romantic getaways for two, or the commercials for Disneyworld trips filled with images of happy complete families, BUT I see everyone over here working so hard. Don't give up, Jethro, I know the prize will be worth it in the end! In watching people around me, I am coming to have much more respect for those "comfortable" relationships, which may not be all that exciting, but I believe they are more stable.

rj

Quoting jethro:
I get wrapped up in HER drama and get down. Thing is, my W operates off of me, so if I'm down, then she gets down. Thus, the circle of pain continues. I have to take it upon myself to break that habit because she hasn't yet...if she ever will. Besides, it's good to disassociate myself from her moods anyway.

I have that problem now with my H, "Multiple Personality" Guy. I guess I shouldn't be surprised to see that it happens during piecing too. Like RJJ said, the hard work continues.....

Hey..Jethro... sounds good..the ILY...oh that must seem like heaven. Remember PATIENCE...that is such an important word and action for us impatient people. It seems to be paying off.
I can only imagine the real dbing kicks in when you know that your s wants to work on saving the m. Apply what you have learned...keep all the changes going that you worked on...they are not temporary changes, they should be lifelong.

You're doing great!!

Sue

Hey j, just checking in. Don't have anything to add or offer, other than to give an attaboy, and keep up the work. I'll talk to you later.

thump...thump...thump...thump...thump...

Jethro ... the new Energizer bunny mascot.

'til later,
KAW

Jethro:

I really could use yours and anybody else's insight over here in piecing.

Now after almost 8 mos and starting the D stuff, H is talking about MC. He says "What would be the harm in trying it?" I am having a hard time getting over the anger of him waiting till now. I know it's better late than ever. But I was comfortable in my life and trying to move on with it.

I guess what I am asking is for someone to please come hit me with a 2x4 and wake me up over on the Sep forum. I love my H but I am scared to death of going through the pain all over again. I feel like I am going into this MC stuff with a closed mind and I know it will be a waste of time if I do.

I am sorry to hog your thread..just looking for some of my ol' friends and new to give me a swift kick in the shorts.

Hey..just checking up on some of the "old timers" here..have not heard from you in awhile..hope all is going ok.

Sue

Thanks everyone for coming by. I guess it's been a while since I've posted to my own thread. Life has been very busy lately with work and home life.

Things have been going pretty well with my W and myself. Last week while I was working lots of hours, she was really supportive, which is a nice change.

We went out last Friday so she could get her Karaoke fix, and out of nowhere she held my hand, leaned over with tears in her eyes, and told me she was sorry. It was a poignent moment...and it did make me feel pretty good.

The weekend was pretty tough. Seemed like every time I turned around there was a reminder of her A. If it wasn't a song on the radio, it was something on TV, or a story someone told us about someone else, or even a dream that I had. It kind of put me in a funk. As a result, I told my W yesterday that I was upset, and she was pretty cool about it...like she's been lately. When I mention how I'm feeling, she says that she thinks it will take time but it will get better. Why does this annoy me? I mean, it doesn't annoy me when you guys tell me that, but it bugs me when she does. Hmmm... In any case, my response was that I said I felt angry with her for having an A. I was mellow when I said it, but I said the words, "have an A." She didn't like hearing the words and actually said, "Don't say that." Perhaps things have been sinking in a bit more lately...

Other than that, nothing really new to report. Just living life the way it should be lived, I guess...which is mundanely-fantastic if you ask me.

Take'r easy, guys.

jethro

jethro --

Quoting jethro:

We went out last Friday so she could get her Karaoke fix, and out of nowhere she held my hand, leaned over with tears in her eyes, and told me she was sorry. It was a poignent moment...and it did make me feel pretty good.

Wow. The spontaneous apology so many of us hope for! Good for you AND your w. that she was able to give it.

Quote:

The weekend was pretty tough. Seemed like every time I turned around there was a reminder of her A. If it wasn't a song on the radio, it was something on TV, or a story someone told us about someone else, or even a dream that I had. It kind of put me in a funk. As a result, I told my W yesterday that I was upset, and she was pretty cool about it...like she's been lately. When I mention how I'm feeling, she says that she thinks it will take time but it will get better. Why does this annoy me? I mean, it doesn't annoy me when you guys tell me that, but it bugs me when she does.

Because it seems slightly dismissive of your feelings? (Tho' that's probably not her intent...). Maybe it's better to say her response isn't validating of your feelings?

Quote:

Other than that, nothing really new to report. Just living life the way it should be lived, I guess...which is mundanely-fantastic if you ask me.

Wow...such a quick post and full of lots of stuff! Gald to hear that life is moving along.

Sage

Hey Big-j,

The heart felt apology - another goal reached, just took a little time to get there.

I have all the confidence in you that you will obtain all your goals. All it will take is time and I believe you are starting to accept that...

Jethro, one concern I have is every so often you bring up that you are upset due to A. Do you also bring up the times when you enjoy just being with her? I'm sure you have some. I only mention it because you haven't posted it here, but its important this is mention far more times than the former.

Finally, got all five birch stumps out last weekend, how'd you doin' with your trees?

'til later,
KAW

Thanks KAW and Sage. Appreciate the visits...

Quoting KAW:
Jethro, one concern I have is every so often you bring up that you are upset due to A. Do you also bring up the times when you enjoy just being with her?

Umm...not specifically. I do tell her that I appreciate all of the things she does right though. She's really been trying and it's been pretty good.

So, about a month ago, I was getting very frustrated because she wasn't doing things "with conviction." Well, I think I was too focused on watching to see what she does rather than kick back, do my own thing, and let her do these things herself. I have found that ever since I've been able to let go a bit, and not pressure myself into DBing with perfection, I have also released some pressure on my W. I am more relaxed as a result, as is she. Interesting how that can work the other way too...

In any case, things just continue to roll along. I do have a question for some of you guys. When my W and I first began to "Piece," (and even during her A) her libido was...how should I say this...active. A few months later, it is not that active, but mine hasn't changed.

As difficult as it is to say, I think that during her A she was turned on by her "activities," then when we first started "Piecing," it was like a flood of emotions or energy or something, and she was really active. So, now that she's much more present, she's less "interested." What's everyone else's experiences here? This can be frustrating sometimes.

Quoting KAW:
Finally, got all five birch stumps out last weekend, how'd you doin' with your trees?

Well, not too good. I haven't done anything with my trees, but I did some big-time hedge trimming on Saturday. I'm just delaying the inevitable...

jethro

Quote:

In any case, things just continue to roll along. I do have a question for some of you guys. When my W and I first began to "Piece," (and even during her A) her libido was...how should I say this...active. A few months later, it is not that active, but mine hasn't changed. As difficult as it is to say, I think that during her A she was turned on by her "activities," then when we first started "Piecing," it was like a flood of emotions or energy or something, and she was really active. So, now that she's much more present, she's less "interested." What's everyone else's experiences here? This can be frustrating sometimes.

well let's see....before disclosure of h's a there was "no action" perhaps because I was preg and h is one of those that finds "that" taboo (no fair!!!) and then it was three months after birth of dd...then our sex life seemed to be back to "normal" especially because we were supposedly "piecing" then but the real fun didn't come till h's return after the seperation...when I tell you h couldn't get enough of me...that's putting it midly!! since then things have dwindled...seems to be the norm with these sits...of course as many who read my threads know...I wish it were more and feel duped as a result of his high drive upon return...but I'm trying not to focus on that area of the r...again no fair..but for now there are more important aspects of the r to tackle despite the fact that I'd like to be tackled regularly!!

all in all jethro things sound like they are going pretty well for you!!

LL

Quoting jethro:
What's everyone else's experiences here?

Yea, I've experienced the same pattern, too. Recently there's really been a drop off in any kind of physical intimacy, but she contributes this lack of desire to her depression of late. Don't think that is applicable to your sitch. Last night she didn't even want to hold hands, but that's another story story all together ... been in the dog house since Sunday...

'til later,
KAW

Well, thanks KAW and LL...I was afraid of that.

Quoting KAW:
been in the dog house since Sunday...

Uh oh...what happened?

jethro

Hi Jethro,

Good to hear from you! Congrats on the heartfelt apology. I think she can feel your pain, but can probably only allow herself to feel it every once in a while. As for the sex thing, all I can say is maybe it's the season - my desire has disappeared completely...of course in my case, that's probably a good thing, since I have no partner

.

take care, my friend!
Robin

the real fun didn't come till h's return after the seperation...when I tell you h couldn't get enough of me...that's putting it midly!!

You lucky B**** LL,

Maybe he wasn't getting any w/OW!! I may never to get to experience that w/W

Any way, I've got a few things to tell you on my own thread!

All, I have a question for everyone because since I'm in this situation, I cannot think clearly. Let me paint a picture here.

So, my W now does not really go out so much anymore. This is because she doesn't feel the need to as much, but it's also because my sister (whom was her party buddy) is pregnant and taking it easy. So, to replace this, she likes to pay a weekly visit to her divorcee friend. So, this friend has a "kind of" boyfriend, but they are not really committed to one another. Every Wednesday, this "kind of" boyfriend comes over to the divorcee's house and the three of them hang out, talk, drink, etc. My W usually doesn't come home until late (~1:00ish) from these events.

I have concerns because I perceive my W spending "quality" time with another man who's not really spoken for, but she assures me there's absolutely no interest. I brought up how I was uncomfortable with this the other day and she was absolutely livid with me because I don't trust her (give me a break). Her point is that she'd never put herself through that kind of stress again, has told me this numerous times, and that the visits are harmless. My point is that her visits at the bar where she met OM were harmless at first too. She understands how I feel, but will not "give in to my insecurities" (her words).

Am I being overly sensitive you guys? On the one hand I think I should just act as if and not worry about it. Her behavior does suggest that she's committed to me. On the other hand, I can't help but having concerns that this is planting the seed for a future cheating.

Thanks all.

Quoting Robin:
As for the sex thing, all I can say is maybe it's the season - my desire has disappeared completely...of course in my case, that's probably a good thing, since I have no partner.

Robin, it's Spring!!!

jethro

Jethro,

I am in no way in the right frame of mind to reply, but I will do it anyway.

Speaking from my own situation, I am sick of being walked on and just being expected to let it happen. I honestly believe that in a marriage, there shouldnt be an I. Only we. I dont think there should be occasions where 1 person goes out while the other person is strictly "forbidden" to join. Heck, your sister has her man there, why cant you be there too?

I didnt get this with my W either. She started going out with SIL all the time. A lot of the time SIL would have a man there with her, or other friends would join and they would come as couples, but W would go alone, and in no way was I invited. To me its a bunch of BS selfishness that shouldnt belong in a marriage.

I think this whole time I have missunerstood some of the dbing principles. "Acting as if" I dont think really pertains to this situation, and I dont think this is something to "let go", but I think there are good and bad ways to deal with it. Maybe a time to bring it up, and a time not to. I dont have any idea how to do that. Only thing I can think of that I could have done differently in my situation is to almost have interupted her little getaways. By that I mean this. I make plans to do something, and W makes plans to do something. Now we have a dilema because someone has to watch the kids. Since she gets to go out all the time, shouldnt I be the one to get to go out this time? Of course an argument about it wouldnt be good, but there are probably constructive ways to go about it. I guess its just the frame of mind I am in right now. I personally wouldnt take any of my own advice right now.

Quoting jethro:
Am I being overly sensitive you guys? On the one hand I think I should just act as if and not worry about it. Her behavior does suggest that she's committed to me. On the other hand, I can't help but having concerns that this is planting the seed for a future cheating.

Boy, I hope dropping by my thread hasn't influenced your thinking here?

Yes, I believe acting "as-if" is the right way to go. Not worring about it is the trick!

Can't help much there. I can relate to how W is put off with your insecurities and can tell you, it doesn't work to continue bring them up or to express concerns about what she does based on them. You're gonna have to show that you are working on getting past them on your own. Remember, its strength and sef-confidence that make you more attractive.

'til later,
KAW

Hi, Jethro...thanks for the words of encouragement!

I'll give you a little different perspective on the w+divorcee issue...

I agree with you that this is potentially a setup for another affair/cheating/whateveryouwanttocallit...Difficult for me to admit for myself, but the truth is, those of us who broke boundaries did so because we didn't know how to keep good ones in the first place. Part of keeping good boundaries is not being in the wrong place, at any time...

Hanging out with a divorcee and her "boyfriend" does not strike me as a good place for a married woman with children. I agree with Floyd about the intricacies of the "Acting As If" part of DBing. I think that is more when there is not an affair or for things around the house. If you "act as if" you are not bothered by her spending time in an inappropriate atmosphere, you're lying to yourself and to her. Or at best, repressing your emotions about it.

I do not believe there is much use in repressing emotions when we're working on our Ms...Your feelings are reflecting a legitimate concern you have. Could you discuss it & try to find another solution for it? E.g., if she's lonely, perhaps she could find a reading club, or some other activity that is more appropriate for a married woman, invite the divorcee if she wants, but not just "hang out" with a bunch of single people. Does that make sense? Or perhaps you guys could get a babysitter and do an actual DATE with the divorcee/boyfriend? Costs $$$, which, in my sitch, isn't always a realistic idea, but it is one option.

The idea isn't for me to tell you & your W what to do, though. It's about learning to problem solve as a couple. Talk about it. You have a legitimate concern. Not because you don't trust her from her previous behavior, just because this isn't really "married woman" behavior. That's my opinion, anyway.

Just a little personal experience as an example...I had a person who came in as a client, but after talking with him I realized he was the neighbor of some of our good friends. I told him I couldn't be his therapist because of this, and he went to another therapist.

He and his wife had just separated. He invited me over to his house - to show me his garden, which is beautiful, something he puts a lot into, and it seemed reasonable to go visit him to see it. I went once and felt a little uncomfortable, but, quite frankly , I'm kind of shy and have been molested, so I'm used to feeling uncomfortable in a lot of situations with men, and didn't really realize that my discomfort might be telling me something other than that I was with a man that I felt a little uncomfortable aroudn.

I went a couple more times, then thought, "Man, my H is so trusting of me to not be bothered by me having lunch with this guy, alone at his house." There was NO WAY I was attracted to this guy, or (so I thought) NO WAY I would ever have an affair on my H. But then I thought, my H shouldn't have to tell me not to do this - it is not appropriate for a married woman to have lunch alone at a recently divorced man's house. So I stopped going over there, and, acutally, stopped having lunch wiht him at all, got busy, and maybe he got a message...

This was all before I had the affairs. Wish I'd been so astute in those situations, too...

Anyway, good luck with this one. Not easy, this DBing, is it??!!

Hi Jethro,

Great stuff! What to do? I find myself rather siding with Sam and Floyd here. But it's a tough call. I can see your W resenting your distrust, but Sam makes valid points about boundaries, and inappropriate situations.

And why AREN't you joining her on these visits? This IS a little odd to me. I can see an all girls night, but...? Maybe that's just old fashioned, but jeez, she did cheat on you, right?

Oh hell, it's late and I've been catching up for HOURS, probably making no sense at all!

Shiny

Hey Jethro, you poor bastard...it is quite a shame that your wife doesn't "get it," especially after you have expressed your concerns and worked so hard dbing. The following is not IMHO, it is just a fact that she should NOT be placing herself in ANY situations that make you pause for even the slightest moment wondering if she is attracted to the man in some way. You read Sams post just above, she visited an ex client and I trusted her completely. I feared for her safety, but I trusted her and I have always had issues with trust; it is something I don't do very well. However, I felt that trusting her completely would be a great way of demonstrating how much I loved her. So, I didn't let it bother me and I trusted her.

After all that has happened since, would I allow that again? F*** no!

If your wife really wants this m to work out, she better open her eyes and pay a little more attention to your feelings. Or if this is some silly little test she is making you go through to measure your trust in her, she needs to rethink it. Your efforts at dbing should be enough to show her how much you care. If she is aware this makes you uncomfortable and is still doing it, she is not showing respect for you or your feelings. That little twinge you have in your stomach telling you this doesn't feel right is there for a reason: you KNOW this is a big issue! If it hurts her feelings that you don't trust her, too bad. She cheated on you, man.

Tell her to get her priorities straight. I hope this post doesn't bother you, but I see what she is doing as just plain wrong and I have witnessed how much pain she has caused you...and it is wrong for her to make you feel the way you do. Even you told me it takes time to be willing to trust your spouse once betrayed. Your wife needs to give you that time and not expect that things are ok just because you are still working on the marriage.

You are NOT overreacting or being insensitive. She is pushing those bounderies again.

You, and everyone else on these boards, are in my prayers. Be well.

jethro -- hmmm, not sure I can add any wisdom here. I can imagine that I would feel as uncomfortable as you seem to if I were in the same sitch.

I guess the "as if" stance would be the truest DB action? But, that doesn't feel completely right to me...almost like it's missing something...when your w. goes out in this scenarios, how does it play out? It may be easier to imagine a true 180 with more details.

What would be your top three solutions to this issue? I'm guessing that #1 would be that she just not hang out with this guy -- am I right? what would the other two be? Are there things that w could do to make this feel more OK with you? Not sure she'd be willing to do them, of course, 'cause some of them might "scream" of control ...

Sage

Well, I really want to thank everyone for their detailed feedback. You guys are great!

It's VERY much appreciated...and unfortunately, makes my stomach turn a bit more. I think I need to be more clear about this situation for you guys, so you can better understand.

Thing is, the guy is nice...pretty conservative...not that that means much these days, and we have done stuff as couples before...any number of times. My W has vehemently claimed she has NO attraction to him whatsoever. Well, my point to her is that she didn't have any attraction to OM at first either. The reason I don't join them is because my W goes over to divorcee's house in the evenings while I watch the kiddies. Divorcee has her own son, and since she's D'd, can't come over to our house because nobody is there to watch her S...otherwise, I expect that would happen more often.

My W, to this day, is still very strong-willed about making sure she has other Rs outside of ours. She doesn't mean with OMen, but with her girlfriends. So, she likes to take off at least once/week to do this...and I think that's fine. But girlfriend time is girlfriend time...and should not involve another man.

Now, after receiving some feedback yesterday from you guys, I wrote my W a long e-mail expressing my concerns and such. It may seem cowardly, but I can express myself significantly better using this medium. In any case, I get home at the same time as her (she hadn't read the e-mail yet), then she immediately goes upstairs to read her e-mail and sees it. She didn't say much to me and was ticked off about it. In fact, we spoke very little last night at all...had the big white elephant in the room syndrome. Now, I suppose my timing could have been better with the e-mail because she's stressing out about our son and how our R has been with him lately. It's really getting to her. So, I added this stuff on top of her already stressful day.

We cordially talked about my son in the evening, and later, while I was preparing a marinade for tonight's dinner, I asked her if she wanted to talk. Her response was no. I expect I might get an e-mail back today, but I'm not sure. In fact, given the past, it's possible she won't ever bring it up...which is contrary to what we should be doing (but I'm hoping that dynamic has changed).

I'm getting very uncomfortable because this very much reminds me of the conversations we used to have about her going out all of the time and not really listening to what I was saying about her boundaries then. The past seems to be resurfacing. In reality, she's always had a problem with boundaries, but if I tell her this, I can expect a very angry W. So, how do I approach this? Her hackles are already up, she's in fight/defensive mode even though I'm not biting.

The only good thing I can say is that last night she fell asleep on the couch fairly early. When I woke up early this morning to go workout, she said something along the lines that she got a really good sleep and feels much better. But that was all...and I hope I can interpret that to not only mean about our son, but also about this situation. Again, I'll have to wait and see.

Anyway, thanks again guys. I'm tempted to tell her that you guys (the "peeps" as she calls you) for the most part agree with me (except KAW), but that might not work too well either... She has expressed in the past that she thinks it's nice I have a place to go to vent/talk about our sitch.

jethro

Quote:

I'm getting very uncomfortable because this very much reminds me of the conversations we used to have about her going out all of the time and not really listening to what I was saying about her boundaries then. The past seems to be resurfacing. In reality, she's always had a problem with boundaries, but if I tell her this, I can expect a very angry W. So, how do I approach this? Her hackles are already up, she's in fight/defensive mode even though I'm not biting.

hmmmmm...

well jethro...It'd be my opinion also that somehow this "issue" needs to be addressed...otherwise it will fester in you...so how to address it??

choose to accept it as is...trusting that maybe w has learned about boundaries and will not let anything happen that shouldn't happen ....after all she did say once if I recall that she'd never do anything like it again cause it would kill her (that was her right??)
so you can trust if you can find a way to feel comfortable with it..

or you can trust but also have a discussion about the possible concern you have about boundaries being pottentially crossed due to the sit...how could you address this without saying what you've said here..."she's always had a problem with boundaries" as no one likes to be told what's wrong with them...is there another way to address that issue??

take care of you.

LL

How far do I have to go back to see how and when your WAW came home?Why don't you suggest the 4 of you going out to eat
or something then you can see how they treat each other.

HI, Jethro...sounds like you guys aren't communicating so well...are you in counseling? Sometimes that is a good place to bring up touchy issues, like "you have never had good boundaries..." that would be a hard one to hear for sure!

Another way to approach it would be to ask her does SHE worry about her boundaries. Not sure if she's being honest with you & herself yet about this. It's so hard to do. If you can somehow get the message to her that you love her and you want her to feel good about herself and you just want to help her learn about boundaries...blah, blah, blah. I dont' have a very good sense of who she is, haven't read as much as I'd like to of your sitch, but the "are you concerned about this" approach sometimes works wonders...

SBH & I had a really good and really awful (in a good way) fight via email last week. We said mean things to each other - just let loose. In therapy when we talked about it, we realized that because of email timing, we both ended up with the apology from the other person before we got the mean mean stuff. That was weird, and maybe it wouldn't have gone so well if cyberspace hadn't stepped in. But it felt pretty good to let loose. We don't do that to each other face to face. I think we maybe should sometimes...there was no name calling or anything, just raw anger being shared.

But we were able to talk & hug and forgive at the end of the day. That's the important part. Seems like your W withdraws from that kind of contact. I hope she can learn to open up to you and get the good that always comes with the bad when you love each other...

I'm going to look at the Eight Mindful Steps to Happiness book you recommended to SBH...Feeling like I'd better get my PMA up or else!!!!

Peace,
God bless,
Sam

Well, not sure how comfortable I feel with our "resolution" about her hanging out with divorcee and BF thing...

So, I brought my e-mail up with her a couple of times and it was hard to talk about it because of constant distractions. All in all, she wasn't angry with me. She said that she'd be more cognizant of these things, but she can't control when divorcee's "kind-of" BF comes over, and she doesn't feel comfortable saying to her friend, "is BF coming over tonight?" Then, if yes, she won't go over. Whatever. I'm sure she could find a more tactful method of avoidance, but won't put forth the effort.

I told her that I asked you guys and that most of you said she shouldn't. Wasn't sure what her reaction would be, but it was favorable. I think she actually thought about it. You see, I think she respects you guys because, one, you helped me through this crisis, and two, you encouraged me to work things out with her. SBH-SAM, I made a special point of telling her that someone in her sitch (you) also told me the same thing.

LL, yes, that was my W that said another A would likely kill her because of the stress. Thing is, I know mothers who say they'll never have another kid after the first, and within two years choose to have another because they "forget." Frankly, and this may sound harsh, but little of what she says offers me a whole lot of comfort. I guess only time will make this better. History shows me that she does not know how to set appropriate boundaries, and I'm afraid that between us, it's a difference of opinion that will never be totally resolved.

Quoting Randy:
How far do I have to go back to see how and when your WAW came home? Why don't you suggest the 4 of you going out to eat or something then you can see how they treat each other.

Hey Randy, thanks for coming by. Well, all of us have gone out and the guy is nice, respectful, and conservative, but honestly, that means nothing. Feelings for another can develop over a short period of time or a long period of time. The more contact, the more likely it is to happen. The law of averages...

Quoting SBH-SAM:
Another way to approach it would be to ask her does SHE worry about her boundaries.

Good thought, but I kind of asked this and I know the answer. She would say that she'd never put herself through that experience again. Also, she says she is NOT attracted to this guy and has 0 interest. My point? Doesn't matter because in a few months she might. She'll still deny it though.

Hope you guys had a great weekend. We went camping, froze our butts off, then came home a day early.

jethro

hey jethro

just a quick thought...

have you tried the old "flies with honey" trick?

it's my opinion that if you approach someone with fear, hurt and resentment, (NOT saying that's where you're at, but maybe W sees it that way!) anyway, you're gonna get it right back in your face in the form of anger, apathy and self-righteousness

i hope, that if my H becomes uncomfortable with any of my actions, that he can come to me, calmly and say something like,

"honey? i know this might make you mad or something, and I'm sorry, but i just wanted you to know that you hanging out with other single dudes makes me uncomfortable and afraid. you don't have to say anything now, and i'd even appreciate it if you took some time to think about it and maybe get back to me about it later, if you want. no pressure, k? just needed to tell you. oh, and another thing, could you pick me up some laundry detergent next time you go to the store??"

and let that be the end of it...

time and space to mull it over
to think about goals vs. fights...

i dunno

just my opinion...

Charcoal

Hey, Jethro - good job on the talk with your W. I totally understand how you feel about trusting her, especially if she thinks just saying she'd never put herself through that is enough. I love the having-a-baby analogy. We (and I'm including you guys in there, too!!!) do "forget," and if we don't change our beliefs and behaviors, we are SO likely to fall back into old habits.

But, some if it you have to leave up to her to discover. In terms of understanding how she puts herself in places where boundaries can get blurred. BUT, do not stop letting her know, in your best DBing ways, the things she does that worry you. Sounds like you're doing that pretty well, and maybe need to do it a little more often?

Squeaky wheel?

How to be a squeaky wheel and not a nag...haven't quite figured that out. Maybe it's not so bad to nag for what you need sometimes....

Let me know what you think.

Hang in there!

SAM

Hey Char and SBH-SAM.

Quoting Char:
"honey? i know this might make you mad or something, and I'm sorry, but i just wanted you to know that you hanging out with other single dudes makes me uncomfortable and afraid. you don't have to say anything now, and i'd even appreciate it if you took some time to think about it and maybe get back to me about it later, if you want. no pressure, k? just needed to tell you. oh, and another thing, could you pick me up some laundry detergent next time you go to the store??"

Well, I kind of approached her the first time this way. I started with the I don't want to upset you thing, but didn't give her the opportunity to think about it and come back to me later. Perhaps I'll try this next time. Thing is, her immediate response, which is a repetition here, is that she will NEVER do this again. Frankly, I just can't believe that. If one puts themselves in certain situations, the possibility exists.

So, Char, that was my first approach and the conversation quickly died because of what she said. Then, I brought it up again a day later or so. She was absolutely livid, and I really couldn't tell you why. I guess she thought we were done with the subject, that I trusted her to make her own decisions, and that was that. She was so angry she didn't even want to talk to me. This response concerned me because the strength of it almost suggests something...but I don't want to go there as I'm just making assumptions. Thing is, she finally calmed down and we were able to talk about it, but she still took on a somewhat defiant stance.

You see, I think there's a dynamic working here (of which I just recently read in a book) that may be the cause. She is an only-child, was doted on, and almost smothered by her folks. I, on the other hand, had the opposite experience. I was the child (one of three) of a D. My folks were so wrapped up in their own dramas that I didn't get much attention. So, the dynamic here is that she tends to feel smothered easily because she was by her folks, and I tend to want to be smothered because I didn't have it so much growing up. As a result, she interprets my bringing up being uncomfortable and not wanting her to go over to divorcee's house as "controlling." The controlling thing is BS in this case, but it's the dynamic nonetheless.

Quoting SBH-SAM:
But, some if it you have to leave up to her to discover. In terms of understanding how she puts herself in places where boundaries can get blurred. BUT, do not stop letting her know, in your best DBing ways, the things she does that worry you. Sounds like you're doing that pretty well, and maybe need to do it a little more often?

Perhaps you are right, SBH-SAM, that I need to both give her space to make her own decisions, but also voice my concerns. Thing is, if she behaves as she has in the past, she will still do what she wants. Admittedly, she's looking after my needs more these days, so hopefully this won't happen.

Tonight will tell, however. She usually goes over to divorcee's on Wednesday night and "BF" pays his visit. She hasn't asked/told me yet that she is going, but the day is still young. Guess I'll wait and see...

Thanks ladies.

jethro

hey

regardless of her prestiged childhood, she did something wrong and feels that she has "paid" for it, and now she doesn't want to talk about it anymore. and most certainly does not want to be "guided" by you on how to be faithful. she knows, she just has to put it into action, and she needs to test her various methods, if you will.

she put her fidelity in a MOST precarious position before
and she definitely learned something from that experience

i know the books say she has to be the "giving" one here, (I have a lot of thoughts on that, not too popular, but then again, i'm not the lbs, so...)

i think, that you have to let her answer to her own conscience on that...

all you can do is voice your fears and feelings and let her conscience do the rest of the work. the more honest you are with your feelings, and only yours (no blaming, no predicting), then she'll be allowed to be honest with hers.

does that make any sense?

see, if she's mad... she have a reason to *talk* to this single man friend, seek support, comfort, advice... just friends, promise... and then... she gets mad again... more talking...

listen, i know this is unacceptable behavior, and if you DON'T accept it, you can keep starting fights about it and wreck your M... you know? if you do accept it, and convey your true self in the most gentle way possible... then SHE can come over to YOUR side... you know?

you know she wants to, right?

take care

Hi, 'thro...

Good job for doing so much reading. SBH did that, too, I am SO BURNED OUT on learning about relationships/psychology/etc. that I don't have the energy to make myself read. But I do know a fair amount of what you guys talk about that you have read, so that helps some. And I'm in c - pay someone else to teach it to me, in a way that is specifically for me & my M!

Hoping you had a good night last night. Also, thinking maybe to remind you - you did have dinner with this divorcee's sort-of-BF and found him to be an ok guy. At least he wasn't a sleaze!

So So so So hard to trust when you've been deceived and hurt. And when you're not seeing the things you need to to believe she is completely aware of how she got where she got. You're a smart man, and I'm sure you'll keep dbing your you-know-what off until things improve!

Sounds like you could use some commiserating (SP???) from SBH...he's been taking a break from the bb, but maybe I'll tell him to just stop by your thread...

You sound a bit gloomy the past few days - maybe time to have a great evening out with your W and try to put these things aside for a little while??!!

peace...

SBH-SAM

You gals are great!

Quoting Char:
does that make any sense?

Yes, it does. I will heed your advice and approach future situations in the manner you've mentioned. I guess, for me, she may feel as though she "paid" for it, but I don't think so. However, I know these thoughts will get US nowhere. So, I'm trying to just accept and forgive...and it's hard... I want vindication, but there is no such thing in this situation.

Quoting SBH-SAM:
At least he wasn't a sleaze!

This is very true! Again, he's a good guy, but "things" happen with good guys too...

Quoting SBH-SAM:
You sound a bit gloomy the past few days.

Yeah, you're right and I need to stop.

So, I have to say that my W must have listened. She didn't go over to divorcee's house last night because BF would be there. In fact, we had a brief discussion about OM and her A last night where she was pretty sweet, I have to say. She said, "I meant it when I told you OM isn't half the man you are." I don't know why exactly she said it, but it was nice to hear.

I thanked her...

So, SBH-SAM, I'm going to try and get myself out of this mini-slump...

Thanks.

jethro

Quoting charcoal:
all you can do is voice your fears and feelings and let her conscience do the rest of the work. the more honest you are with your feelings, and only yours (no blaming, no predicting), then she'll be allowed to be honest with hers.

does that make any sense?

This essentially is the underlying principal that strengthens the bond built on respect. A requirement for any good R.

'til later,
KAW

Jethro, I know how you feel...

I have to go see the MC right now with SAM, but I'll post later. Hang in there!!!!

Quote:

So, I have to say that my W must have listened. She didn't go over to divorcee's house last night because BF would be there. In fact, we had a brief discussion about OM and her A last night where she was pretty sweet, I have to say. She said, "I meant it when I told you OM isn't half the man you are." I don't know why exactly she said it, but it was nice to hear. I thanked her...

ta da!!! it worked!! and don't worry about why exactly she said it...my guess would be because it's true and perhaps she senses that you still feel threatend by other men??

glad to see that w heard you..and did the right thing..

and hey we're all entitled to a slump once in a while..(lord knows I have em) just as long as you don't stay down there too long!!

LL

Hi Jethro,

Took your advice and thought I'd jump over here and see you. Lots to read to be in the know about your sitch. I'm glad the going to the GF's house thing worked out for you. I hope you and W can come to some sort of compromise about that sitch. Hopefully she would have enough consideration for your feelings to modify the hanging out a bit. But at the same time not feel like you are a "control freak."

I was wondering about her saying that she couldn't ask if the BF was going to be there or not. A friend should be able to understand that if a sitch was causing friction at home that that was an appropriate thing to check on.

Or am I being naive?

I can't begin to know what the trust thing would have to be like for you in this scenario. But, I feel like you have to come to some sort of resolution about it. Maybe it will be easier to trust again knowing she is taking your feelings into account and trying to compromise.

Have you read Getting the Love you Want from Harville Hendrix? Very good stuff, even though W and I are sep at this time. Also something that was very good for me was, The Purpose Driven Life by Rick Warren. More of a religious take on things, but it really got me thinking about priorities in life. ?

Well, I thank you for your input my way and I wish you the best i your mending sitch.

Bye the way, sent a short, but sweet email to W. Don't feel totally LRT by doing this, but I felt it was appropriate to test the waters with a bit of a short, happy teaser. Haven't spoken to her in a week. I'll stop about me
Take care!

wow. tough mc for sam and i last night. a trust issue came up and frankly, i was quite a bit disappointed with how sam handled things. very similar to your sitch. in my sitch, sam has been invited to get a cup of coffee by a former patient who is recently divorced. You and I both know what the immediate answer should have been: a resounding "No!"

whether or not our wives think they have dealt with the pain of their infidelities and are ready to move on matters not. if anyone disagrees and thinks i am "in love with my pain" and that is the reason i cannot move forward at this time, tough. i am not in love with my pain. if i could cut it out of my body i would do so even with a dull butterknife! my wife was unable to tell the man no, even though she had the feeling it would be wrong to say yes; she didn't want to hurt his feelings and she didn't ask me about it because she thought i would be angry. i would have done what you did, jethro: tell her it is up to her to decide but i was uncomfortable with it and if she needed a way to tell him no, i would have suggested she tell him it simply would be inappropriate because he was once a patient. but she considered going and neither said yes or no.

when she brought this up in counseling i became angry for two reasons, maybe even three. firstly, why the f did she even consider going? secondly, why didn't she come to me for support? and thirdly, given that she is now working on our m, why wasn't there an automatic response to immediately say no and to heck with the other guy's feelings? what about my feelings? if it feels ever so slightly wrong, then don't do it. don't do anything with someone else you couln't do if i were there.

I am very happy that you were able to get through to your wife and have her realize that what she was doing was a concern of yours, and also painful to you. I think you did a very strong thing by creating the dialog with her that allowed her to see what she was doing. i would have done the same thing if i had known about what my wife was struggling with. I am her husband and i am here to help, ya know?

maybe i'm reading too much into what is being said between sam and i. she has said to me many, many times she could never ever have another affair or hurt me like this again. but while she was explaining the whole thing to the counselor and i, she said she didn't think it could lead to another affair. am i paying too much attention to every word, or does that ring of uncertainty? we went from never ever to i don't think...are we too hypersensitive? and if we are, aren't we now unattractive and sabotaging our dbing efforts to save our m? i do not want sam to think, "gosh, nothing i do is enough for him."

however, the simple fact is: if one is having trouble with bounderies and keeps seeing that line as blurred, then that person needs to stay the f out of any sitch that will test those bounderies until the m is on solid ground again.

quoting you:

Quote:

I guess, for me, she may feel as though she "paid" for it, but I don't think so. However, I know these thoughts will get US nowhere. So, I'm trying to just accept and forgive...and it's hard... I want vindication, but there is no such thing in this situation.

i have also come to realize vindication is impossible. what are we going to do, hurt the one we love so dearly? not an option. beat the om up? nah, too expensive. sure, maybe a sarcastic jab here or there, but not like we may have done before dbing because i certainly do not want my wife to feel i am rubbing her face into her mistakes. i am not trying to make her hurt any more than she already does. i hate to see her in such pain. i dearly love her and want to help her.

but your quote pretty much sums of my feelings. all we can do is accecpt and forgive...over...and over...and over...and over because the reminders are everywhere. shiny told me, as did you, that the images eventually fade and i think they will, but as the left behind and betrayed spouses our wives need to watch what they say and do because they are under our scruntiny! are we smothering or crowding them...probably a little. but gee, i can't imagine why. my point being, whether they are doing something wrong or not, it is their turn to understand how we perceive what they are doing and how it helps or hurts the m.

what bothers me most, is why do we even have to have the conversation in the first place? our wives must know of our hypersensitivity to their actions, right? in fact, just like when every single dber here in the beginning, had to "appear" to be making changes for the better, so our sig other would perceive we are changing. again, our sig other needs to be concerned with how we now perceive what they are doing. Especially now that our changes are permanent so as to help the marriage get better. (well, geddy lee did say "no changes are permanent, but change is," :-)right?).

quoting sam

Quote:

So So so So hard to trust when you've been deceived and hurt. And when you're not seeing the things you need to to believe she is completely aware of how she got where she got.

Even SAM knows this and still has trouble coming to me, or else she would have simply asked how i felt about her having coffee with another man. she so desperately needs to stop feeling lonely. she believes lonliness to be the main reason for her infidelity. i understand this, so we have to understand and give a little slack even tho it hurts, i guess. i don't want her to be lonely; i want her to have many friends. i very much want her to be happy. but right now, while things are still raw, i feel that our wives need to be mindful of those boundery problems and not put themselves in any sitch where we as onetime lbses can let our imagination run wild.

to quote a quote:

Quote:

all you can do is voice your fears and feelings and let her conscience do the rest of the work. the more honest you are with your feelings, and only yours (no blaming, no predicting), then she'll be allowed to be honest with hers.

Isn't this what we have been doing?

stay the course. i think we will all be ok soon. just a feeling...

be well.

Quoting jethro:
Yeah, you're right and I need to stop.

So, I have to say that my W must have listened. She didn't go over to divorcee's house last night because BF would be there. In fact, we had a brief discussion about OM and her A last night where she was pretty sweet, I have to say. She said, "I meant it when I told you OM isn't half the man you are." I don't know why exactly she said it, but it was nice to hear. I thanked her...

So, SBH-SAM, I'm going to try and get myself out of this mini-slump...

How did I miss this yesterday?

She's listening and she is validating!!

Repeat that thought ... repeat it ... repeat it ... repeat it ...

That should help build PMA.

'til later,
KAW

Hi, Jethro...I wasn't trying to make you feel bad for being down, just thinking you could use a little dose of empathy from someone who REALLY knows how you feel.

Hope it helped.

SAM

Hey LL, KAW, LR23, SBH, and SBH-SAM. Thanks for the visits. So, SBH and SBH-SAM, I'm glad you guys got things worked out.

This boundary thing can be difficult sometimes.

So, I have a couple of things I want to address, and mostly it comes as a result of Charcoal's last post in the WAW Syndrome thread. Her quote that got me is: "he's not letting me forget that he knows what's happened here".

My W and I had a tough R talk last night and I went off a bit and not sure that I should have...feeling kind of crummy about it today. In the last couple of weeks she has begun distancing herself (physically) from me. My "love language" is touch, so this gets to me a bit more than normal. Additionally, her sex drive is way down, which also bugs me because mine is always up (errr...no pun intended). In any case, I mentioned how it's really bothering me how she's not making more of an effort to meeting my love language, etc. Got a bit heated because it came as a result of being rejected for sex (again). She gets pissy because she thinks it's only about sex and I try to tell her that it's just part of it, but certainly not all of it. I need affection dammit! The woman barely kisses me. I end up saying some rough things, most of which revolve around her A (which, in some cases were valid)...but certainly not all necessary.

So, Char's quote gets to me because I think I'm getting stuck in the past more than I should rather than looking on how to move forward with the information I now have. Lately things have been pretty rough for me, so I'm trying...but it's not easy... I guess I just need to shift my mind-set. Got to focus on what she is doing, and not what she isn't...

Also, reading Char's last post brought up something else that I just wanted to throw out there, philosophically speaking. The question is "What does it mean to not feel in love?" I tend to wonder if it's possible to feel "in love" with our Ses after being together for a long time. I mean, we always love them, but that "in love" state is, as far as I can tell, simply a heightened sense of euphoria based on some illusion of romantic love (odd coming from a romantic, huh?).

From my situation, it seems to me that WAs experience no feeling (or have deadened feelings), and this seems to drift into other portions of life (such as feelings for children, other family members, and friends). However, they feel most "dead" with us because we are supposed to represent the one in which they are supposed to be in love with...to have the MOST feelings for, in other words... Now that the feelings in general have deadened, our WAs think we represent the biggest hole. And thus, it's time to run and find it elsewhere.

What do you guys think? Maybe I had too much sun this weekend.

Visited my sis in Palm Desert...about 105...

jethro

Jethro,

Your W sounds a lot like mine. She really doesn't iniate any kind of touch that much. Where my LL is also touch. I think that with the WA's that its not that things have deadned its that those feelings are just plain hurt. Those live feelings have changed to fear and resentment. I think that once your WAs can get past the fear and resentmant that they start to see the love feeling that there that is buried so deep.

Lee

Quoting jethro:
So, I have a couple of things I want to address, and mostly it comes as a result of Charcoal's last post in the WAW Syndrome thread. Her quote that got me is: "he's not letting me forget that he knows what's happened here".

So, Char's quote gets to me because I think I'm getting stuck in the past more than I should rather than looking on how to move forward with the information I now have. Lately things have been pretty rough for me, so I'm trying...but it's not easy... I guess I just need to shift my mind-set. Got to focus on what she is doing, and not what she isn't...

jethro -- Yah, Charcoal's quote got to me too when I read it...yesterday I had a mini-meltdown with h (sadness not anger) and I wondered how/if when that happens he views it as me still being unable to let go of the a. Is that what it is? A lack of forgiveness or just a byproduct of the healing process?

Anyway, sounds like Char's post + your own insights have led you to the right spot -- focusing on the things that w. IS doing. If you can notice and appreciate those, I'm thinking that you will see a positive reaction from w. (patience on that, though!!)

Quote:

Also, reading Char's last post brought up something else that I just wanted to throw out there, philosophically speaking. The question is "What does it mean to not feel in love?" I tend to wonder if it's possible to feel "in love" with our Ses after being together for a long time. I mean, we always love them, but that "in love" state is, as far as I can tell, simply a heightened sense of euphoria based on some illusion of romantic love (odd coming from a romantic, huh?).

From my situation, it seems to me that WAs experience no feeling (or have deadened feelings), and this seems to drift into other portions of life (such as feelings for children, other family members, and friends). However, they feel most "dead" with us because we are supposed to represent the one in which they are supposed to be in love with...to have the MOST feelings for, in other words... Now that the feelings in general have deadened, our WAs think we represent the biggest hole. And thus, it's time to run and find it elsewhere.

I don't know how to correlate "in love" with the fantasy behavior stuff that I saw between h and ow (emails, etc). I am "in love" with my h. but I think that those feelings became unearthed from under layers of anger and resentment, etc (that even predated finding out about the a.). I think my h's lack of feeling for me (I can't recall now if he ever said he wasn't "in love" with me tho' he certainly said "it has never felt right") was made up of much of the same...it wasn't so much that the feelings weren't there but that they had so much fear and anger and all that crap piled on top that he couldn't feel them.

That DOESN'T mean he's sending me six gushy emails a day however

as he did with the ow he was "in love" with. Isn't that infatuation? I don't know. Isn't it possible to feel that heady, I can't wait to see you feeling at this stage? I feel that frequently with h. but as the LBS (so to speak) I feel like I have to temper my excitement and "in loveness" with some reservation and guardedness...At least in the beginning (and apparently for sometime into it...) DB'ing isn't conducive to that "in love" feeling...I get the sense you have to get to a "breakthru" point to allow yourself to get back there.

Not sure I even answered your question now but I sure did use a lot of words in the process.

Sage

heya sage & jethro... my ears were ringing

first of all, jethro, I definitely KNOW how W feels when you want sex. she thinks... oh, it's just about sex, it's not about ME or LOVE, or ME, or ME... it's all about HIM... honestly? Withholding what your spouse really needs is more than cruel. Well, I'm not going to do that my H anymore. I'm sorry you're going through that.

I can certainly equate it with how H wasn't meeting MY needs and I wouldn't wish that feeling on my worst enemy.
With me begging and pleading for H to get help, or to not get help, to just be my friend... and getting told, NO!
So, what the heck? H needs lovin', H gets lovin' (most of the time). If that's gonna help H be my friend and meet my needs, then, shoot yeah...

As for you focusing on the past. What do you mean by that. Are you saying that being denied now hurts like it did before? I didn't get that.

The other thing i wanted to say about being "In LOVE" is this...

To me, being in love means I'll know H was the right choice for the long haul. It means that I am 100% conscious of my committment to the R and that H is 100% conscious of his committment and that we are both aware of all that entails.

i dunno

Hi, Jethro...

SBH & I had a rough day yesterday, and I'm up in the wee hours partly b/c of anxiety about everything...I'm REALLY working on the sex thing. I DK how much your W is interested/willing to look at herself and why she feels the way she feels, but I've been really trying to notice what my response is when SBH comes on to me. Physical touch is DEFINITELY his primary LL, and I'm finding that it's really tough for me to see it as a loving thing.

Maybe it's just me needing to work on my issues, but I know a lot of women feel this way - for me, it stirs up anxiety and guilt, both about times I've felt out of control and about the As. Not much of a turn on. SBH is being patient about it. I feel like I'm doing real work on it for the first time in my life. Finally.

I ABSOLUTELY believe that "in love" feeling is possible throughout a marriage. I think it comes and goes - at least that's what people say - but I think the reason it goes is because of fear, resentment, all the things you and others have listed here. It's a balance, I guess, of the comfort in routine/predictability, and the intensity of passion. And the hurts of life. No intense feeling lasts forever. Healthy people move through life with feelings ebbing & flowing, ever changing. I guess really healthy people find the peace in trusting that process.

I hope I can do that someday.

I hope you & everyone else can do that, too!

Well, there's my philosophical moment for the day...

Peace,
SAM

Hmmm...interesting responses on the philosophical discussion. Thanks everyone. Seems everyone has their own spin on what "in love" means. As though I should be suprised...

So...I want to take this touching/sex thing a step further...

Quoting Char:
first of all, jethro, I definitely KNOW how W feels when you want sex. she thinks... oh, it's just about sex, it's not about ME or LOVE, or ME, or ME... it's all about HIM... honestly? Withholding what your spouse really needs is more than cruel.

Well, not sure how my posts come across in terms of how my W "touches" me or how much we have sex, so I'm going to be a little more clear to illicit opinions from you guys on what "normal" relations may be.

Sex has always been a point of contention with my W and I. In fact, she wanted me to ask you guys about this to see what you say. I've always had a strong sex drive and I guess you could say my W's has been more normal (whatever that means). I would be happy with every other day.

But, we ususally end up having sex twice a week. Now, every great once in a while she goes through periods of time where she wants to have sex more often, and this is great. When she was having her A, we were having sex more often (ugh

). In fact, I think that was the only thing getting me by, as I was pretty much having NO other affection from her at all. Right after I found out about her A (for a few weeks), we were doing it at least once a day. Now that things have settled down a bit, it's back to the twice a week, and even now she seems to get annoyed when I "push" for that.

This bothers me because I like to be close to her in this way, my LL is touch, I think she's gorgeous, etc. It's not just "getting off," it's about having strong feelings for my W, feeling close to her emotionally and physically. Are we "normal" here? Am I asking too much? Should I back off? The rejection is really getting to me...as it has always gotten to me... You know, makes me feel unwanted... Naturally, she says it's not because I'm not attractive, that she's not abnormal, and that most women are fine with once/week. In her mind, our relations are normal. But I'm still not satisfied. (I know...me...me...me...)

I know some of you guys would feel lucky to have it twice a week, but let's face it, what we're going through isn't the norm, and I want to base my assessment on the norm.

Help. Thanks.

jethro

jethro...

twice a week...you lucky dog you!!

ok so your LL is touch...

does that always have to mean sex??

are there ways that you can touch your w or have you touch her that are not sex??

I used to focus too much on the actual sexual contact...when that wasn't around I'd be annoyed...I didn't stop to appreciate that ole footbal pat on the butt my h so often gave me that annoyed the crap outa me...now I like it..I relate it to when other men would drape their arms around their w and give them a hug...

in trying to focus on the other means of touch I'm finding that I AM infact getting what I want..(ok I want some of it to be sexual too)

do you cuddle when you sleep?
do you hug w? is she receptive?
does w hug you? are you receptive?
do you greet w with a kiss? is she receptive?
does w greet you with a kiss? are you receptive?
do you touch w in non-sexual ways each day? is she receptive?
does w touch you in non-sexual ways each day? are you receptive?

there's a whole lot more to the whole physical contact love language than just sex...if you focus on what you are getting you may find that you are getting what you need.

LL

LL beat to it ...

Maybe if you alter your focus from the act of sex to a greater bond of physical intimacy. My W's biggest complaint other than I always wanting sex was that we couldn't touch without it always leading to sex.

So I concentrated more on the hand-holding, the embraces, the back rubs, the caresses, the massages, the gentle squeezes, the cuddles, etc... I started to find this just as desirable ... and when it comes time when she is ready, the sex is usually more intense.

Maybe one way that might help you look at it is ... work all the angles above (which will take days or even a week) as a way to build up to the physical act. The result is while you may not gain any more frequency, the way in which you are being physical in between may be more enjoyable to you both instead of the building of resentment.

It also opens the door to more creative ways to be together which can add more fun and pleasure too. For instance, we would never take showers together, now we do. Once or twice a week during an evening, I started shaving my W's legs for her, sometimes including an upper trimming, which sometime can lead to ... well I think you can figure that out.

OK, that's probably more info that you need to know, but I think you can get the point...

'til later,
KAW

Jethro,

I have heard the same things from my W saying that once a week is normal for a married couple. I think that is BS if one of you is feeling rejected and unloved there has to be something else. I also have a love language which is touch I love hold hands and hug and kiss and all that stuff. For me Making love is the topping on the cake. It is the thing that makes me feel like she really loves me that I am worth being with. That is how I feel emotionally attached to her.

What if your W was willing 3 times a week would that help you feel more loved. What exactly do you need to feel loved. Maybe talk to your W and say this What 4 things really make you feel loved by me. Then You can tell her the 4 most important things to you. Ask her if you are meeting her 4 needs wether she would be more willing to meet yours. If she says yes start doing what she needs. Hopefully she is openminded enough to try.

Lee

hey jethro

for me, my libido cycles on a monthly basis, and i've read this is pretty common too.

right after mens.. (eek, we are getting personal aren't we?) anyway, right after that, once, twice, three times a day is good for about 4-5 days...

then, honestly, I'm good for the month pretty much... unless provoked

'course H isn't (good for the month) and doesn't know how to "provoke" so I "give"...

a pattern that's happened here is that for years... even before the kids... H would persue all the time. everyday, with nearly every touch there was a sexual message being conveyed.

It became a REAL turn off! I mean, what is H??? For Pete's Sake! There were times when ll's little pat on the @$$ would send me through the roof! Of course I said things about it, but H never ever ever seemed to get the point...

I MEAN COME ON!!!

So, this is where the rejection started. I felt like an object because all my needs for friendship and help around the house we're totally ignored while H kept poking and grabbing...

I was like, "ick, stop!". That stinks doesn't it? So, I think, had H met more of my needs more of the time, maybe this cycle wouldn't have gotten set up.
And, when H was drinking, my sex drive literally DIED. I didn't even fantasize or anything... nothing... now for me? Very unusual. :\

Now, okay, everybody knows what's up now, right? So, now the trick is in breaking the cycle and the old habits that make me reject ~ which HAS happened. Now, i think we just need to build up the touchy feel good sexless moments to get to a point where we're real friends again...

Oh yeah, and one other thing... H doesn't initiate anymore. I've slapped him down so many times now that he's afraid to. And well... passion??? We had a little of that early in the R, but it got out of hand too quickly, we became too familiar too quickly and I think we're paying for that even now.

What I would like, I think, is for H to try is this... if he needs it, to give me that look and say "I need you." I told H we should start saying "need" more often. Like, "honey, I need you to turn on the air conditioner" or "honey, I need you soon, k?" I mean, I think most women respond to need more than want. If we know we're meeting a need, we feel good about ourselves and we know our H's NEED us (in that way). If we get to a point where it's a "want", then, I'm reminded of my step dad saying "how's it feel to want???... tough SH%T". Cause "Everybody Wants Some"... but only your H or your W should NEED you... you know?

Thanks... it's nice to ramble... helps the discovery process... I must go tell H.

Ahh...I want to thank everyone for their responses, but I have just learned that I have a bigger fish to fry...much to my disappointment.

So...I was snooping on my W's e-mail tonight. Yes, I've done it a couple of times. No, I'm not proud of it. Thing is, guess what I saw? Well, she was writing her divorcee friend (who knows about her A) and told her that she saw OM again last night. Now, this was a coincidence...not on purpose. She was just running and the jerk happened to be driving by in his flippin truck or something. I'm not even sure that they talked, as her e-mail didn't say anything about that...

When I first found out about her A, I told her that I expect her to never see OM again, and if she did by happenstance, then she needs to tell me. Well, in my subtlest way I tried to bring certain things up that would give her the opportunity to admit to these "encounters." She flatly denied seeing him. I even brought up the "accidental" thing and she still denied it. It was all I could do not to say anything.

We ended up having quite the R talk. My concerns about her seeing OM, my concerns about her not telling me the truth, and my concerns about her not sharing her feelings lately. Because I'll tell you what, she's been distancing herself from me the last few weeks. Perhaps OM encounters? But, I also really wanted to know where her head was...

She went on to tell me that sometimes she feels fine and sometimes not; it's a rollercoaster for her too, and there will just be times like this. Let's keep our eyes on the road ahead of us...blah...blah...blah... Thing is, she tells me one thing and something a little different to her divorcee friend...read on...

At some point, I finally got her to open up to me a bit and she said something like she's just trying to process things because I'm the only one she's really ever had an R with, that she's gone out on dates with, etc. And without saying it, she wonders if I'm the one. Thing is, she's had any number of R's with OM...they were just a bit twisted, but she won't see that, twisted or not, they were still Rs.

Naturally, after our R talk and her falling asleep, I snooped some more. She actually did write to divorcee that she's thinking about OM less and less, but she still doubts our R. They were correponding about saying ILY, and how I mentioned this to my W, and how my W says it to me when she feels it, but at no other time. Divorcee writes something like, "depends if the love is based on friendship or based on lover." W responds back, "definitely friendship." WTF?

So, what to do guys? I'm wondering if I need to reread DR and go back to step 1 here. Maybe I'm saying too much too soon, even though she seems ready to hear it. You know, I really feel like I don't want to work on this junk anymore if all I'm going to get is someone who "likes" me...that feels like a friend. I feel like my W really needs to grow up here.

Also found out that I'm not communicating how I feel very well to her because she keeps interpreting what I'm saying as her not doing enough to help fix our R. I guess I'd better tread very carefully with these conversations. This came up numerous times in her e-mails...how she wasn't doing enough, etc. I guess telling her "thanks for A, B, and C, but if I got D it would be that much better" doesn't work. Time to shut up and put up.

I'm dying to call her on "seeing" the OM and her lying in my face, but what would that do? I'd expose my snooping...but man, it would feel good...

I'm so sick of the lies, the not in love BS, the half-truths. I feel like I'm gonna hurl.

jethro

Hey jethro -- Sorry you feel like hurling

I DO think you got a bunch of good info to work with AND you answered your own questions in your post...

Quoting jethro:
She actually did write to divorcee that she's thinking about OM less and less, but she still doubts our R. They were correponding about saying ILY, and how I mentioned this to my W, and how my W says it to me when she feels it, but at no other time. Divorcee writes something like, "depends if the love is based on friendship or based on lover." W responds back, "definitely friendship." WTF?

So, what to do guys? I'm wondering if I need to reread DR and go back to step 1 here. Maybe I'm saying too much too soon, even though she seems ready to hear it. You know, I really feel like I don't want to work on this junk anymore if all I'm going to get is someone who "likes" me...that feels like a friend. I feel like my W really needs to grow up here.

This is what I mean by answering your own question....yes, yes, yes to rereading DB and getting your focus back. Your w. is thinking less and less about om but isn't quite sure about your r. That's where YOU come in, right? As crappy as it may feel or sound or whatever, can you put aside your desires/needs for your w. to be "doing more" and focus all of your energy on db'ing? Figuring out what works, etc? It probably doesn't seem "fair" after all this time, right but the goal is...?

Quote:

Also found out that I'm not communicating how I feel very well to her because she keeps interpreting what I'm saying as her not doing enough to help fix our R. I guess I'd better tread very carefully with these conversations. This came up numerous times in her e-mails...how she wasn't doing enough, etc. I guess telling her "thanks for A, B, and C, but if I got D it would be that much better" doesn't work. Time to shut up and put up.

My suggestion? Don't shut up completely...keep thanking her for A, B and C. Just don't mention D right now (really).

Quote:

I'm so sick of the lies, the not in love BS, the half-truths. I feel like I'm gonna hurl.

I'm sorry.

What have you done for YOU lately to make YOU feel good?

Sage

Quote:

I'm dying to call her on "seeing" the OM and her lying in my face, but what would that do? I'd expose my snooping...but man, it would feel good...

it'd feel good for all of a half a second til she started to blame your snooping for the reason she doesn't feel sure about the r.

jethro...you've seen me rant and rave about not feeling like my h is giving 100%...when I kept asking for it and asking for it, it seemed he withdrew and gave me less and less...sure I'd like for him to talk more about his "feelings" and crap like that but that really isn't a "normal" r now is it..yes, yes, I know we do not have "normal" r's right now do we..but if what we want is to have a "normal" r then perhaps it's best to "act as if" we do...

try to stop looking for the what's missing and look for the what's going well...focus on what's going well and it may just blossom...focus on what isn't going well and you'll find yourself drifting off into the crappy zone I've spent so much time in.

try not to dwell too much on the words w has used with her friend...sit and think back a while jethro...have the same questions and doubts entered your mind?

LL

Hey, Jethro...Krap is right! I'm sorry you're going through such a tough time. I guess going back to the beginning of DR would be a good thing, and especially reading the chapter on affairs. Because, even if she's not having an affair with anyone in particular, she is really having a fantasy affair about whether there might be someone else better. Truth is, I doubt VERY MUCH if there would be - both because you seem like a very thoughtful and devoted man, and because EVERY marriage has its problems, EVERY person has their annoying traits (speaking as a very imperfect spouse, myself

), and if she would face reality, she'd realize this. But, few people in the place she's in are able to admit that truth about life...

I did realize this as my 2nd A began to dwindle, and I've always believed that if you truly love someone when you get married (which SBH&I DEFINITELY did) you can work through anything. I didn't realize it in time to break things off and come clean before SBH confronted me, but at least when he did confront me, it only took a couple of hours for me to be back on the commitment train. Since then, there were only two times when I even asked myself whether this was the right thing for me to be doing, and those two times were in the first month. And other than those two times specifically (minutes in lenght), I have felt 100%+ committed to making my marriage work. Oh, I didn't mean to go off on my stuff...just that all marriages have their problems and I think if you admit that, you can work through anything.

I just wish your W would admit it and stop daydreaming about "something better." My prayers are with both of you!

SBH-SAM

*ouch* man, I've been following your sitch for a while and I'm sorry to hear about what W has been telling her friend.

Quote:

I'm dying to call her on "seeing" the OM and her lying in my face, but what would that do? I'd expose my snooping...but man, it would feel good...

It might feel good for a minute but I'd wager it would blow up in your face and be a setback for your R and DB'ing efforts. She likely thinks her e-mail is private - otherwise she wouldn't be saying the stuff she says in it. I think she'd see this snooping as a betrayal. What goals would confronting her accomplish - aside from the 'a-ha!caught you lying' factor? This is tough, you got some insight to her thinking right now. Maybe it would be best to take that and adjust how you're approaching things?

Hey all. Geez...where to get off this rollercoaster? We continued our R talk this morning... But I want to respond to you guys before getting into that.

Quoting Sage:
My suggestion? Don't shut up completely...keep thanking her for A, B and C. Just don't mention D right now (really).

Yup. That's what I plan on doing. Guess I'm not validating enough...or not doing it right.

Quoting LL:
try not to dwell too much on the words w has used with her friend...sit and think back a while jethro...have the same questions and doubts entered your mind?

I am trying to do that, LL. And I understand her having doubts because I certainly have them... It's the combination of lying, acting distant, and accidentally seeing OM (more than once) that does not sit well with me.

Quoting SBH-SAM:
I did realize this as my 2nd A began to dwindle, and I've always believed that if you truly love someone when you get married (which SBH&I DEFINITELY did) you can work through anything.

Ohhh...SAM, she'd say something like she's always felt very close to me as a good friend and not REALLY loved me like a lover should. Thing is, she has intimacy issues, which I believe create this block in her towards me (and anyone else for that matter)...and she kind of realizes this...thankfully.

Quoting jim_van:
This is tough, you got some insight to her thinking right now. Maybe it would be best to take that and adjust how you're approaching things?

I agree wholeheartedly. I will use this information to my advantage.

So, like I mentioned, this morning we had further R discussions. She brought it up because I wasn't going to go there. Thankfully, it ended up being productive. I went into my "DB zone" where I take myself when things start getting hairy. It's a bit ethereal. In any case, she said that yes, she has been having a hard time lately, and like any M, there are ups and downs. And yes, she still wonders if I'm the one. But she also thinks that it's a block on her part...some kind of defensive mechanism that prevents intimacy. She said that when things are really good, she kind of sabotages them. Additionally, she said it's hard for her to open up to me because of how I used to be... She also assured me that she would NEVER see OM again and is fully committed to our R (the lying still gets to me, however). I did my best to validate all of the things I noticed that she's changed, and how differently she is acting these days.

She went on to suggest that we get away for a long weekend or something...just the two of us. This was a nice gesture. Her point was we just need some down-time together to refresh ourselves.

But, this damn lying is really bothering me. I suppose, if I think about it, she is doing it because she doesn't want to open wounds. She's also probably afraid of how I'll react. Maybe she's protecting me, as well as herself. I don't know...I just want her to come clean.

jethro

hey jethro...

I saw KAW had read his W's journal and found out she wanted to be Mrs. OM... so, I mean to say, it could be much worse.

I know you don't want her lying to you. Noone wants to be lied to.

How safe is she to tell the truth? She's trying and doesn't want to mess things up. She doesn't want to tell you she saw OM cuz she doesn't want you to think that's more significant than it is. If she's like me, she's definitely trying to turn her own heart around.

Now, say you say something about your snooping...
three things could happen

You could tell W you know she saw OM and that she lied and that you see it as a direct offense, and you can tell her you wont take it and that she needs to leave if she doesn't want to do her part in at least being honest with you.

W could get scared because she doesn't really want to leave you and apologize and swear she wont do it again, in which case, the process of turning her heart around will be easier. It will still have to take it's course, but it will be easier.

or

W could do what the folks above said... use it as fuel to justify seeking D. Like, "oh, I can't even get any privacy or respect around here, so it's HIS fault I'm leaving."

or

some combination of the two. prolonging Limbo Land.

Thing is, W's decision to stay with you and CHOOSE to love you is hers and hers alone. If you wish her to make that choice you need to be everything you'd be if you two were happy together. And unfortunately, the lion's share rests with you because you're the one DB'ing.

You should tell her you have her password, at least. That's so uncool. I can see looking in a journal if it's left out, but purposefully reading something she believes is private is just plain wrong, and you should admit your own wrongdoings too, maybe not directly, maybe just mention the importance of changing passwords often enough. YOU have to be honest too... then maybe you'll both agree that you are both failable.

Sometimes I say something I'm thinking and having said it takes the power out of it and it becomes untrue. Maybe your W is just testing out theories on her friend. Yes, she is lying to you. But you are lying to her too by reading her private messages and fishing for confessions. So don't be thinking you all that :P, k?????

(no intention of harshness... sometimes i'm harsh, i read that in one of H's "fill in the blanks" books

take care

Char, we cross-posted.

Quote:

You should tell her you have her password, at least. That's so uncool. I can see looking in a journal if it's left out, but purposefully reading something she believes is private is just plain wrong, and you should admit your own wrongdoings too, maybe not directly, maybe just mention the importance of changing passwords often enough. YOU have to be honest too... then maybe you'll both agree that you are both failable.

Journal or e-mail, it's wrong, Char; however, it is significantly more deceitful to have an A. Not sure that it would help things if I told her I've snooped a couple of times. I am a very honest person and feel quite guilty about it, but it could backfire... I would do it if I thought it would help things...

jethro

Quote:

Journal or e-mail, it's wrong, Char; however, it is significantly more deceitful to have an A.

tsk, tsk....are you going to justify all your bad actions according to whether or not they are wronger than her having had an a???

not trying to be mean..I know I've used the same silly manner of justification for my indiscretions but it's not very productive is it???

Quote:

I am a very honest person and feel quite guilty about it, but it could backfire... I would do it if I thought it would help things...

maybe what would help things would be to just stop snooping. ya ya I know I've snooped too...and most of the time when I do find something I shout it right out to h..not very productive...

so she "saw" og..perhaps you are right in your assumptions about it just being his driving by and her catching a glance at him..is that really something she should have to come home and tell you?? oh honey btw I saw og today driving down the street...how much better would that have made you feel??

LL

Hey jethro!

Not much time, but wanted to suggest that you maybe take what you found out, and just kinda store it in the back of your head somewhere, and try not to focus on it right now. Keep it in mind, but don't take any action on it, and just keep your eyes open. And your arms, too.

It seems like these might be just some "dying quivers" that are happening on the part of that R. Seems to be pretty typical, and just that information you have in itself doesn't mean that your efforts are running off course.

It's tough, I know. Been there, done that. There were times when I had too much information, and would blow it when I "reacted" to it.

Stick with your goals, and really play the "distancer/persuer" role wisely now. Do both, but each for short periods of time.

Go out and do something for yourself today, and maybe just keep this under your hat for awhile. Unless you think that confronting her on this right now would do more good than harm, would take you closer to your goals, it might be best to "do nothing".

Try to stay out of her "feelings", 'cuz those may come and go. Focus on actions.

Luv ya man! Hang in there!

Hey LL and JJ.

Quoting LL:
tsk, tsk....are you going to justify all your bad actions according to whether or not they are wronger than her having had an a???

I suppose that did sound a bit defensive, didn't it? My apologies to Char...and thanks for the reality check. It isn't right no matter what. I will STOP snooping.

Quoting JJ:
It seems like these might be just some "dying quivers" that are happening on the part of that R.

Not sure I understand, JJ. You think that she's still harboring feelings and keeping those secret?

Quoting JJ:
Unless you think that confronting her on this right now would do more good than harm, would take you closer to your goals, it might be best to "do nothing".

Well, I'd kind of like to bring it out in the open, but it would be for selfish reasons...like relieving my conscience. Char really struck a chord here... This is a tough one. In a way, we're both lying, but...ahhh...I don't know... Perhaps keeping it under my hat for now is the right thing to do, but the lies...the lies...

jethro

Not sure I understand, JJ. You think that she's still harboring feelings and keeping those secret?

I hate to use the word "secret" in this case, maybe more of just keeping them away from you. You may think of this as being deceitful and lying, but take a minute to do a 180 on your thinking of it, and look at it as a way for her to "protect" your relationship from more harm. How would you act, and feel, then? From there, you might be able to find your balance.

As for harboring feelings, I almost hate to say this, but yes. As much as we would like it to be different, there is no "on/off" switch when it comes to feelings for another person, especially for women. Everytime she sees him, whether or not she actually talks to him, it's going to bring up some kind of feeling. This doesn't mean she's going to act on those feelings.

About the best you can do to combat this is to do what you can to keep the balance of the scale tipped in your direction. Keep making yourself the most attractive option.

Also, keep in mind that Michele warns against a person "always" expressing their feelings. Especially to their partner. Although ideally it sounds great to share everything with your partner, the reality of this is different. Feelings are just feelings. They can come and go, in a matter of minutes. Sometimes, sharing EVERYTHING that you're feeling with your partner may do more harm then good.

That's one nice thing about this board is that we can vent and share feelings here. Your wife doesn't have this outlet. If you really want her to share it all with you, tell you everything, you would have to make it totally safe for her to do so. No "demands", and no reactions whatsoever to whatever she says to you. How do you react to any conversations surrounding this subject now? How could you change that? Are you sure you really want to do a total 180 on this, and would be able to keep any kind of respect for her, any hope? Where would the boundaries on these "listening sessions" lie? Are you ready to apply for sainthood?

I guess in summary, her "lies" MAY be born out of confusion, insecurities, and fears. Not with the intention of doing you harm. If you were to look at is this way, what could you be doing differently?

Quoting JJ:
I guess in summary, her "lies" MAY be born out of confusion, insecurities, and fears. Not with the intention of doing you harm. If you were to look at is this way, what could you be doing differently?

Well, to protect her feelings and not add any more stress to the situation, perhaps it's better to say nothing... I just can't help but think she's a bit confused about our conversation last night... It's not easy for me to walk that tightrope of knowing and telling.

jethro

Your current sitch is where I was 1 year ago. I did what you are doing and my W did what your W is. She cares about you and doesn't want to hurt you with details. Be thankful of this. I also thought that I NEEDED to know everything. You really don't.

Your R seems to be moving forward fairly well. The person most likely to screw it up is you. So don't. Appreciate what is going well and don't let the highs get too high or the lows get too low. Please, please, please don't snoop. All it did was kill my PMA most times I did it and for no good reason. It made me suspicious again and no matter how hard I tried to hide it, it showed in my interactions with her. Here is the line that got me over the hump. "If you trust too much you may be deceived, but if you trust too little you will be TORMENTED." It is actually quite easy, quit tormenting yourself.

This doesn't guarantee that she won't betray you again but nothing does. This guarantees you the best chance of a healthy R and you feeling good a lot faster than the path that you are on. I say this from experience. I extended my "ICU" visit on this board by not listening to the "elders" (Zebra,Kaw,Andy). The hardest part was caving in to my insecurities by snooping or just wondering if she was being honest with me. Come here when those insecurities hit instead of acting on them.

I think your R is heading in a very positive direction but it will continue to be a struggle. I think you are closer to your goals than you do.

Good luck,

TBONE

Quoting jethro:
Char really struck a chord here...

jethro

didn't know I am a guitar player did you?

no seriously...

Marriage vows go something like cherish and obey, forsaking all others...

Cherish comes first (eeghad, charcoal, listen to yourself). But I don't think these vows are intended to have rank, meaning, i don't think one has precedence over the other... I know, easy for me to say, but... H can say "you forsook me!!!" and I can come right back with "you didn't cherish me!!!" The thing I need to do is forget about all that past stuff and cherish H today, and I do, I just forget to sometimes when I'm mad.

I think JJ said some really good stuff. Focusing on today, not sharing all your feelings with your spouse. I don't know your W, but since she is there, and is trying to "do" whatever she can to "get right", then she absolutely must be trying to work out whatever feelings pertaining to om. If you want her to love you, you have to let her make that choice all by herself. Otherwise, it'll be 1/2 @$$ed and based on fear rather than open and actually "hers".

"After the Affair" tells the straying spouse that it could take a long, long time to get over the OP. To just be still with it and let it pass.

more of just my opinion
which apparently flows like wine today

sorry jethro

Hey tbone and Char.

Thanks for stopping by tbone. I appreciate your wisdom. Hindsight really is 20/20 isn't it? I would just like to step outside the situation for a moment and see what it is. Unfortunately, that's impossible, so I count on you guys.

Quoting tbone:
Please, please, please don't snoop. All it did was kill my PMA most times I did it and for no good reason. It made me suspicious again and no matter how hard I tried to hide it, it showed in my interactions with her.

This rings very true, tbone. I guess I simply have to trust that she will take care of her side of our R. If not...well, I guess I'll know soon enough.

Quoting tbone:
I think your R is heading in a very positive direction but it will continue to be a struggle. I think you are closer to your goals than you do.

I do hope you are right. In some ways I can see this, but in other ways, it's same 'ole same 'ole. Basically, the "love you, but not in love with you" thing. Did you experience this also a year ago?

Quoting Char:
didn't know I am a guitar player did you?

Didn't know you were, but I am. Methinks you hit an A minor (ha ha).

Quoting Char:
I don't know your W, but since she is there, and is trying to "do" whatever she can to "get right", then she absolutely must be trying to work out whatever feelings pertaining to om. If you want her to love you, you have to let her make that choice all by herself. Otherwise, it'll be 1/2 @$$ed and based on fear rather than open and actually "hers".

Yes, I see this a bit more clearly now. Still yet another reason not to bring up the snooping thing... BTW, my W doesn't use a password. I wish I could add one for her to prevent temptation, but that would be a little obvious.

Quoting Char:
sorry jethro

It's okay. I have to count on you to set me straight, as you tend to provide a good counter-pose to my precarious stance.

Thanks guys.

jethro

no password???

OMG

i was aiming for A minor 7

gnite jethro...

Jethro-

I searched and read a little of your posts but with so many it is hard to find the whole story. I am assuming your W left and came back. What is the story on that and the keys to making it happen. I would appreciate your stopping by my thread on the MLC bb and your thoughts on the e-mail I received.

Thanks.

Hi, Jethro...Your W seems to be really committed to your R/M, from what you're saying. Before I read this last post (I was behind by a day or so), I was about to tell you that you & SBH should discuss the value of snooping.

He was suspicious of me, and did some computer geek ghost-monitoring of my computer (mind you, SBH is NOT a geek, I just like to tease him b/c he's gotten so into the computer stuff - he's smart and pretty much of a james dean rebellious guy...I'm just glad he loves me and the kids enough to keep his life safe these days...heh, heh) and found out my password quite easily and looked at my account. But he also pointed out that I was getting more open about being on the computer, switching screens as soon as he walked into the room, locking the door (ostensibly to keep the rugrats out, but he knew better), etc. So he had supporting evidence to "justify" the snoop. And he felt perhaps I wanted to be caught. You know, I really did. I was getting more aware of how AWFUL the OM was, and really needed help getting out of the situation.

SO, now knowing that your W doesn't even use a password - perhaps SHE wants to get caught, too? Wants you to know some of these things, without having to face you directly? It can be subtle - I did it when OM came to my therapy appt - rather than directly email SBH, I posted about it, figuring if he read it that would be his choice, if I emailed it to him it would be my fault - didn't want to disturb him at work, etc. My therapist (who is excellent) said I was being passive aggressive. And, after getting over the ouch of having someone call me that, I realized she was right.

But, it's still difficult to address feelings face to face. E.g. my recent email-coffee-with-former-client situation. I thought I should deal with it myself, b/c I knew it would hurt SBH, and I really knew I couldn't meet the guy for coffee - but I still needed some support in telling him no, and finally asked for it. Only to find out that these are the things SBH wants to hear about up front - and the things I learned from that situation were so valuable! I will tell him these things right when they happen, face whatever feelings I have about enjoying the attention from another male, and deal with them w/in my M!!!!!

My attitude of wanting to deal with the coffee thing myself was based partly on not wanting to face conflict with SBH, but also on not wanting to hurt him any more, partciularly since I knew I wasn't going to have coffee with the guy...I think your W is moving in the direction of being able to learn these lessons, as well. My first M was a "friendship" relationship. I definitely married him b/c I was lonely and depressed. So I know it can happen. BUT, I also know that I put up barriers b/c of intimacy issues, and those barriers DO make you "feel" like you don't really love someone. The barriers make you feel like you just have friendship for the person, b/c when you get intimate it is so uncomfortable. You make it the other person's fault, b/c it is daunting to think that you might have to try to fix the underlying cause w/in yourself. I know I didn't really believe it could be fixed until sometime last fall.

So, your W has a lot of scary issues to face. Keep up your GREAT work! I don't know if you saw the Mother Theresa quote I put on MAL's thread in MLC, but it echoes tbone's statement "if you trust too much you may be deceived, but if you trust too little you will be tormented"

If you can't find it on MAL's thread, let me know & I'll type it for you here...The key part to it for you, I think, is something like - if you trust people they will take advantage of you, trust them anyway....you see, it never was between you and them anyway, it is between you and God.

BTW, SBH is a writer and keeps a journal. When I was growing up, my parents made it clear they would not read any notes I wrote or got from my friends, or snoop through my room...and they never did. Ever since SBH & I first got together I have made it clear to him that I will NEVER read his journal, no matter where he leaves it lying, because I, too, am a writer, and I understand the need for complete privacy of the thoughts and feelings you put down on paper.

So, in my world, you would not snoop. Now, in my world, I never would have had an affair, either, so I can't say I WOULDN'T snoop, although, after having an A, I understand more completely the need to follow my principles no matter what! My theory - there are things that make you feel you need to snoop. Discuss THOSE with your W, rather than snooping. YOu'll probably get to the same place without breaching anyone's privacy or tormenting yourself...

Words to ponder, just my HO, of course!

Hey - try typing 3 good things for the day - LL & I are having good success with this...for me it has bled over into looking at lots of things more positively in my life.

SBH-SAM

Just a quick update.

I didn't bring up the e-mail thing with my W last night. We ended up having a really nice evening...gave her a nice massage in candlelight and that led to @#$%.

I've decided...I mean really decided...to just chill for a while and enjoy the ride, let my W come around in her own time. I think she will. I just need to make it easier for her to do so.

Yes, I'm upset about her lying, but after reading everyone's responses, I can see why she'd do it. I do know that she isn't cheating on me anymore, and it seems she has less and less feelings for OM...but as JJ says, I'm sure those will still occasionally rise to the surface here and there. She keeps telling me (and did so again last night) that she feels so responsible for my feelings. I believe that lets me know why she hasn't told me how she's run into OM a couple of times.

I want to thank everyone for keeping me straight. I REALLY needed the help yesterday.

jethro

Oh yeah (sorry about that long post) - SBH has told me he will never snoop again...

Hey SBH-SAM! We cross-posted.

Quote:

SO, now knowing that your W doesn't even use a password - perhaps SHE wants to get caught, too? Wants you to know some of these things, without having to face you directly?

No, I don't think so. She and I are also writers and she leaves her journals out too. Oddly enough, I wouldn't think of snooping in her journal, but with e-mail it's okay?!?!

Can't tell you why I have this odd boundary. Perhaps it's because I know her journal will expose REALLY deep things that are truly private while her e-mails with her divorcee friend just let me know more of the goings-on in her mind. Does that make sense?

Quote:

My first M was a "friendship" relationship. I definitely married him b/c I was lonely and depressed. So I know it can happen. BUT, I also know that I put up barriers b/c of intimacy issues, and those barriers DO make you "feel" like you don't really love someone. The barriers make you feel like you just have friendship for the person, b/c when you get intimate it is so uncomfortable.

Yeah, she's even admitted to this. She's gone as far to say that perhaps she'd have intimacy issues with anyone. However, there remains that nagging thought in the back of her head that says she hasn't had enough life experiences with other men.

Thing is, this is her deal. I have no control over it and just need to provide her the space to figure it out. Problem is, I frequently get to a point of wondering why I should wait for her to figure this out when my own life is slipping by and could find another mate who does love me. I know, not entirely healthy.

I'll look for the Mother Theresa quote.

Quote:

My theory - there are things that make you feel you need to snoop. Discuss THOSE with your W, rather than snooping. YOu'll probably get to the same place without breaching anyone's privacy or tormenting yourself...

VERY good point! We did end up discussing the things that led me to snoop the other night and yesterday morning. I know she feels better about our discussion...at least that's what she's telling me...

Oddly enough, our discussion wouldn't have been so intense had I not snooped. Oh well...

Thanks SAM.

jethro

Quote:

I frequently get to a point of wondering why I should wait for her to figure this out when my own life is slipping by and could find another mate who does love me.

I said the same thing while in mc recently and our c said, "everyone after age 30 has a lot of baggage," meaning i should stay with the bag i have and work on the m.

just kiddin sam, you are definitely not a bag!!!!

i am certain the point is that a much deeper relationship can be formed if we can forgive our spouses and help unload some of the weight they are carrying. it is much more preferable to do that than to start again with somebody new, discover how much baggage he or she has, and try not to go through the same cycle again.

How's my man jethro,

Sorry I missed all that you went thru here lately, but I don't believe I could have offered anything of value above the great advise you had already received ... and glad to see its help you smooth over this patch ... and I believe soon you'll see it was just a bump in the road but you will continue on from here to yet better times together.

'til later,
KAW

Jethro,

I'm glad to read about the recent progress. Happy to hear that you %&%$#@! the other night. That is a great sign. Keep up the good work and we will all hope that your hard fought efforts will continue to bring you those baby steps that we are all seeking. "Put one foot in front of the other...and soon you'll be walking very far." Rudolph the Red Nose Reindeer animated Feature?

I have to say I will chime in on the side of trying to stop the snooping. I know it is incredibly hard to resist that drink from the "she doesn't share her feelings with me desert." But, I think the sips that you get this way are not quenching your thirst in the long run. (Sorry for the corny metaphor!)

Keep up the good work!

Would you mind a shameless plug for my sitch while I'm here?
LR23 - Newcomer

Hi Jethro!

Not sure I'm qualified to comment but here goes. I agree with tbone about snooping. I've done my fair share I am ashamed to admit. Since we've been trying I haven't mentioned anything to H. I know the hurt oozes out in ways that I don't realize though.

I decided, and it's still VERY HARD to do, to accept the fact that I can't control what he does. He'll make his own choice and your W will too. As much as we'd like to say hey you keep going the way you're going and you'll regret this someday. Unfortunately they have to figure that out.

All we do by focusing on the yucky part of what they do is make us miserable. Not sure about you, but I've had more than my share of that. Why bring more on?

I tell myself since there isn't anything I can directly do about H's behavior I choose to let him live his drama. And sometimes I have to remind myself that this really is HIS drama. God I sure do hate the OW though.

You've held up so well for so long. Turn it up a notch. Go back to no ILY, no OR talks, lovingly detach, no mention of A or OM, make her miss wonderful you. Easier said than done I know. When you figure out the secret pass it on!!!

Hey, 'thro -- I understand about the email vs. journal - i wonder if it's b/c her j. is just her internal thoughts and email is what she's communicating with others - what you might wish she'd communicat with you?

Yup, if she's got that nagging feeling about "not having enough experience" she has to work that through herself. I'll pray she does it with YOU!

Good job on the R talk! You are doing great! OF COURSE you will be wondering if it's worth it! That's normal! I say the same thing to SBH, but it's a little harder for me to bear the thought of him not thinking I'm worth it. And, as time goes on, I think we both have fewer and fewer of those "wondering" thoughts. Well, I haven't had any in a long time, which makes me happy & thankful.

And, I may not BE a bag (thanks, SBH...), but I do know 1) I have a ton of baggage, and 2) how GREAT it feels to have someone who loves me enough to forgive me for my horrible mistakes and carry on helping me deal with my schtuff...

Keep looking for the good stuff!!!

SBH-SAM

Hey everyone... Well, not sure if I blew it or not, but I couldn't live with my guilty conscience any longer. I'm honest-Jethro. Lotta good it does me... So, tonight I began feeling paranoid again 'cuz my W went out for a bit (which seemed like too long). Felt the same way last night, but didn't really say anything. Tonight she could tell something was on my mind. I just can't hide anything from her...or perhaps I want her to press me???

In any case, I started by saying she's gonna be mad, but I had to admit to something. So, I told her that I had snooped a couple of times and read that she had seem OM, but lied to me the other night. Her reaction was...interesting... She wasn't happy I snooped, but remained calm. She tried to give me some BS about how she hasn't had contact with OM, that she's been running a couple of times and he's honked his horn at her, but they never talked. Whatever! Contact is contact. So, I told her NEVER to lie to me again...and that I've been lied to enough already. She agreed to tell me if she saw OM again...then apologized a little later in the conversation.

I also apologized for snooping and was very frank about admitting it was wrong. I asked her if she was mad and she said no, but disappointed. Ouch, I hate that word. That's one of those ones my mom used on me when I was a kid. Hell, I'd rather she yell at me...

In any case, I'm not sure what she's really thinking. She did seem kind of understanding, which threw me off. But I'm not sure she's really telling me what she's thinking. We didn't talk about it too long. BTW, Char, I did offer to setup a password if it would make her feel better... She didn't respond.

So, lately things seem to be dredging up for me quite a bit and I'm not really sure why. The last few weeks have been brutal. I've tried to put on a happy face, tried to shut up, but "things" keep happening to bring us back to an R talk. Kind of like external events that are reminders to the two of us of her A. In a way, for me I think these events are catalysts to drive me through some post-A evolutionary process...like I'm feeling that last of the real shi!!y feelings and just working the worst of them out of my system. My W, on the other hand, although seemingly very supportive, may be getting burned out. This is not good...and I'm not sure how to handle it really. I can't help this nagging feeling in the back of my head that's telling me she's not being honest with her feelings...at least in how they are conveyed to me. I still feel like she thinks I'm just a good friend and will always be so...that she's missing out on "true love."

Damn. There is just so much sh!t to sift through...so much...

Quoting SBH:
everyone after age 30 has a lot of baggage

Yeah. It was bad enough at 20!

Quoting KAW:
Sorry I missed all that you went thru here lately, but I don't believe I could have offered anything of value above the great advise you had already received.

Ah...KAW, my friend. No prob. You've had your hands full.

Quoting LR23:
"Put one foot in front of the other...and soon you'll be walking very far."

Dang it, LR, now you've got that song stuck in my head! Besides, are you sure that was Rudolf? I thought it was Santa Clause is Coming to Town!

Quoting longhaul:
Go back to no ILY, no OR talks, lovingly detach, no mention of A or OM, make her miss wonderful you.

This might be the answer...but I'm not entirely sure. In my situation, doing some of this will likely help.

Quoting SBH-SAM:
Yup, if she's got that nagging feeling about "not having enough experience" she has to work that through herself. I'll pray she does it with YOU!

Yes, I have no control and it's her deal to work out. This should be my mantra (which is something KAW recommended I do when I found out about her A).

Take'r easy, guys...and thanks...

jethro

Hi, Jethro...hmmmm..a post at 3:22 am in my world (if that's the real time you posted - sometimes these time stamps seem off to mee) would mean a sleepless, anxiety filled night...hope it was something better than that...

It is Santa Clause Is Coming To Town! That's one of my favorite ones...That song, in particular.

Hey...I'm going to say this again, because really, it has been working for me & Lostlove...Your whole last post was worry worry, negative negative. Tell us 3 good things about your R with W. Tell us 3 good things you've noticed about her. Or some good things you've felt. And make sure you're telling her.

Everyone is right - if she DID fall in love with you way back when, your best bet is to act the way you did way back when. Think about how you treated her, what your "mental attitude" was (probably Positive!), how much you looked forward to seeing her, how much you implicitly trusted you to be looking forward to seeing you. ASK her about her feelings of being "just friends" if you need to, about what she felt when you first got together, what she WAS attracted to that allowed her to be more than "just friends" with you when you crossed that boundary. Tell her the things that attracted you to her, and the things that still attact you to her. Etc, etc, maybe blah blah blah. But, better than all this wondering, mind-reading, second-guessing, negativity!

You're the one who recommended the 8 ways to happiness book (which I haven't actually taken time to read yet...) - I know you understand these theories in that intelligent mind of yours! Put them to work for you, dude!

My 3 things for today:

1) Woke up and didn't feel that bad (sore throat is definitely getting better)

2) Got kids ready by myself and made it to Sunday school on time! (SBH exhausted from painting church on Friday & Saturday nights)

3) Got to take ANOTHER nap, which helps the sore throat situation even more!

Try it, Jethro. It'll be good for you. It'll build your character. You'll be a better person for it. I'll be very disappointed in you if you don't. Oh, don't worry about it. I'll just do it myself. Just go on and do what you need to do. I'll take care of it. I just want the best for you, you know. I try and try and you never seem to appreciate all I do for you. Hmmmmm...I don't have adolescents yet, so I don't have an endless supply of guilt-inducing phrases...but that's not bad for a rookie, huh?

Take care of yourself!

SAM

Well, J my friend, you're not alone.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who seems to be going through a bit of a rough patch. (Wait, that sounds bad...I'm not GLAD anyone else is!!!

) At least you and your W are TALKING about stuff. I just seem to be spinning my wheels.

I'm feeling spurts of suspician. Based on very little but my own nagging sense that things aren't "right". I too wonder if not only H, but I am settling for something like "good friends" vs a passionate M.

Oy this is hard...Thank goodness we're all here for each other.

And SAM, I know you haven't made the direct suggestion to me, but I think I'll join you and LL with the "3 positive things", I could really use a perspective change myself right now!

Shiny

Hey SBH-SAM and SB.

Quoting SBH-SAM:
Hi, Jethro...hmmmm..a post at 3:22 am in my world (if that's the real time you posted - sometimes these time stamps seem off to mee) would mean a sleepless, anxiety filled night...hope it was something better than that...

You're right...although you're two hours ahead of me...

Quoting SBH-SAM:
Everyone is right - if she DID fall in love with you way back when, your best bet is to act the way you did way back when.

This one is tough because we "fell in love" when we were 15 years old! You know how she "fell in love" with me? We had been good friends for a few months (although I wanted more and she admittedly didn't) and her friend became interested in me. Jealousy?

In any case, I think she felt this "in love" feeling for a couple of years and that's it...and I DO think she loved me. We've always had a connection (felt it the first time we ever talked), I've always felt "in love" with her, but she would argue that she M me because of how comfortable she feels with me...and that it's more of a friendship. Friendship...friendship...friendship...blah, blah, blah. I've also been pretty consistent personality-wise over the years...although I have "evolved" (because now I'm just more mellow). She, on the other hand, has changed. Not sure how to really answer this, SBH-SAM.

Quoting SBH-SAM:
I'll be very disappointed in you if you don't. Oh, don't worry about it. I'll just do it myself. Just go on and do what you need to do. I'll take care of it. I just want the best for you, you know. I try and try and you never seem to appreciate all I do for you.

Yeow!

Quote:

SB: "I'm feeling spurts of suspician. Based on very little but my own nagging sense that things aren't "right". I too wonder if not only H, but I am settling for something like "good friends" vs a passionate M."

SBH-SAM: "But, better than all this wondering, mind-reading, second-guessing, negativity!"

Okay ladies...I wanted to address both these quotes in one. Yes, I've somehow been wrapped up in a LOT of pain lately. I don't really know why, but it's eating me up...and driving me crazy. Hell, I feel like I'm gonna have a flippin' anxiety attack. What is this!?!? I KNOW what I need to do...I think. I guess I'm at an impass. You see, I don't trust my W. I just don't. We know why and it was confirmed in what she wrote in her e-mail. I (and she) can justify her actions and I can see it from her point of view, but the fact still remains that she is NOT open with me. She is very open with Divorcee...in ways that she needs to be with me. Maybe it will take time, I don't know. I just cannot tolerate having an R with someone that does not tell me how they're feeling. I know this is my deal and I know I need to get past it. I'm just having a difficult time with it right now. I assume, SB, this is where you stand???

Odd, I guess. When DBing we're told not to focus on what's being said, but on our S's actions. Maybe I am too focused on what's being said rather than her actions...because her actions do suggest she's committed. Perhaps I need to go back to this...

Quoting SBH-SAM:
Tell us 3 good things about your R with W.

Okay, I will begin to do this...

1) W finally told me a few things on her mind yesterday that she's been holding back.
2) W told me she thinks we need to go on a little vaca together...just the two of us...to spend some quality time together.

3) She isn't mad at me about snooping, and hasn't said much about it at all. And still, after I told her, she cuddled me on the couch while we watched a show on TV.
4) She continues to want to get stuff for our house, which demonstrates how she's trying to make a comfortable home for herself and us.

Well, yesterday, I finally told my W I forgave her. She thanked me. I do forgive her...it's just the trust...the trust...

jethro

Oh, Jethro...I'm so sorry you're having a hard time. You and SBH seem to be in similar places. Though I hope he isn't suspicious of me. I'm not doing anything except taking care of our kids and sleeping lately (by myself!!!).

One time SBH came home early from work but I was expecting the guy for the propane tank and I called the propane tank guy's name (DO NOT KNOW WHY - NEVER a good idea!!!). John said something like, "are you sleeping with [whateverhisnamewas]?" - this was when S3.5 was a baby, and I said, "Yeah - I tell him I'm going to sleep - you watch the baby for me!!!" THat was pre-A, of course. I can't really joke about that stuff anymore...

Anyway, Your positive stuff is really good - such a contrast between what you compalain about in her verbal communications, as you pointed out. Interesting, but I know it doesn't necessarily mean you can trust her, or necessarily improve your attitude...

Are you guys in C? Any good books on "marrying your 1st love?" or something like that? It's got to be a common difficulty, that wondering if there might be more. I still don't believe there is, but some people come to different conclusions...

Keep up the 3 things - GOOD JOB!!!!!!!!!

If there was a gold star graemlin, I'd give you one!

SAM

jethro,
I haven't taken the time to read through your sitch (sorry, very tired and depressed today...). When did your wife leave and when did she come back and what if anything did you do/not do that prompted her to come back?

Hi, Jethro...doing the positive thing helps..each day when I wake up I try to think of some positive ideas for work..I might start doing it for my m also. Positive generates positive..or something like that. I can't really speak about the trust thing..I do know it must be very hard to rebuild...keep the faith that your w will want to help you .

Sue

Yo Jethro!

Quoting jethro:
... disappointed... Ouch, I hate that word. That's one of those ones my mom used on me when I was a kid. Hell, I'd rather she yell at me...

Does W know this?

Just curious. D5 has an odd fascination with calling herself and everyone else she knows "stupid". Doesn't bug me one bit, though I know she's testing me to see if I think that, and I assure her I don't. Anyway - H 'bout drops his fork everytime he's D's target. H gets MAD!

I told D5 why Daddy gets mad. His Dad called him that once or twice back in the day and it totally shows how that hurts him still.

D has expressed empathy and promises to not do that again.

Me calling H dumb would be like him calling me fat. Ain't gonna happen no matter how mad I get.

So, maybe tell W this, how you'd rather she yell at cha. Maybe share some other stuff about yourself. Maybe make yourself "vunerable"??? Maybe this would help W open up to you? Maybe make herself a little more vunerable?

I think going back to assessing W's actions instead of her words is a good idea. Right? It's about winning YOU back? If you're feeling icky, work on you?

Just some thoughts. Sorry you're hurting.

oh, btw ~ i'm psyched you told her you snooped. does W know about lies by omission? has W agreed to not do that?
i worry that you saying "don't ever lie to me again" would serve to distance W like you're some kind of authoritarian? I wonder what she'd say if you asked her about that?

anyway,

ciaocito amigo

Hey everyone. Had an amazing day yesterday, but I will post later on it...just wanted to respond to everyone here first.

Quoting SBH-SAM:
Are you guys in C? Any good books on "marrying your 1st love?" or something like that? It's got to be a common difficulty, that wondering if there might be more. I still don't believe there is, but some people come to different conclusions...

We are not in C. My W was for a while (during her A) and I joined a couple of times, but it didn't help too much. In fact, my W continued her belligerence and there was no getting through to her at that point. We just kind of stopped. And frankly, I don't really have a problem with that. In terms of books, I never even thought to look, so I have no clue. Hmmm...

Quoting holdingon:
I haven't taken the time to read through your sitch (sorry, very tired and depressed today...). When did your wife leave and when did she come back and what if anything did you do/not do that prompted her to come back?

Hey holdingon. I say my W left in a figurative sense. She always lived at home, but was mentally gone for about a year. After I found out about her A, post two months of DBing, was when she began to "come home." I think I sometimes cause confusion with this because you're not the first to ask. Thanks for coming by...

Quoting Sue:
Positive generates positive...

I agree, Sue, and need to focus on this... Thanks.

Char, with the "disappointed" thing, it doesn't bother me as much as it may have come across in my post. I was kind of being silly with the whole mother/guilt thing. It does bite a little, but I would probably feel the same way she does. It's cool.

Quoting Char:
I think going back to assessing W's actions instead of her words is a good idea. Right? It's about winning YOU back? If you're feeling icky, work on you?

Agreed. She has been "showing" me she's trying. It's like JJ says, feelings can change from one moment to the next, so it's best not to focus so much on what's being said in the heat of the moment...

Quoting Char:
oh, btw ~ i'm psyched you told her you snooped. does W know about lies by omission? has W agreed to not do that?
i worry that you saying "don't ever lie to me again" would serve to distance W like you're some kind of authoritarian? I wonder what she'd say if you asked her about that?

My W said she wouldn't lie to me again, but she didn't seem very convincing. That's why I feel there are things she's not telling me. And it's not that I think she's cheating on me any longer. It's more about her feelings or things that may have transpired in the past that she's not telling me. In terms of acting authoritarian...yes, I did that... And I'm sure my W probably didn't care for it, but you know what, I'm sick of the BS. I cannot remain with someone that does this, Char. So was there a "hidden" threat? Kind of...sorry to say...

Thanks for coming by everyone. My next post will be...interesting... How's that for a teaser?

jethro

jethro -- hmmm...can't wait to read the next post!

Quoting jethro:
My W said she wouldn't lie to me again, but she didn't seem very convincing. That's why I feel there are things she's not telling me. And it's not that I think she's cheating on me any longer. It's more about her feelings or things that may have transpired in the past that she's not telling me. In terms of acting authoritarian...yes, I did that... And I'm sure my W probably didn't care for it, but you know what, I'm sick of the BS. I cannot remain with someone that does this, Char. So was there a "hidden" threat? Kind of...sorry to say...

so...this is where I am stuck most of the time. h has lied to me in the past -- not just the a. but other stuff too. some of it has been outright lying and some of it is lying of omission. I know for certain that there were some things that I probed him on/asked about that were none of my business or that I made FAR too much my business or that I made a big deal of...and I'm sorry for that....so, I guess I can see how he would feel as though he wanted to hide things from me for fear of my reaction or to keep himself seperate. NOW, though, post-a and post all of the crap, it tears me up to think that we will never get to the point where he can be honest with me ... I can't say for certain that he isn't -- it's just this voice in my head that says "is it really even remotely possible that these two people who carried on a secret affair for 6+ months just NEVER had contact again after I said not too?"

arrgh. Yes, it was wrong of me to threaten to tell her h. if they spoke again but that was 7 months of hell ago. I'm here. I haven't told anyone anything. is it time to be honest about the way that things really ended?

or, if not this....when? what will we be really honest about?

wow. hijacked your thread. Sorry

Sage

Sage, no prob on the hijaak. I think, in a way, our Ses can't trust that we're going to react rationally to the irrational things they have done and said. Frankly, and I believe this is what my W felt, she was simply scared of my reaction and whether it would set us back. Perhaps that's what your H thinks, Sage?

Okay, my next thread is: I Think I Have Officially DB'd Guys!!!. I'm leaving this one behind me...you get the symbolism?

jethro