I'm 33, my W is 32, S 9, and D 4. We've been M 10 years, but were highschool sweethearts (had a 1-year breakup during college times). So, basically, we've known each other a long time, a lot of water under the bridge, etc.
1st bomb occurred 10/01 and second bomb on 10/02. The 1st bomb was the "I love you, but not in love" talk where she told me that she's been unhappy for a long time--unhappy with our M, unhappy with being a mother, regrets that she didn't do all those things she should have when she was younger. We got M too young, had kids too young, need a separation...we all know the drill.
2nd bomb was 10/02. Pretty much the same conversation, but she concentrated more on the M being a failure than the children so much. She was more determined to S this time. The idea was to see if her feelings would change...the same sentiment as the first bomb. After an absolutely brutal weekend of me getting ticked off, getting sad, etc., and her finally talking to her parents, she decided to stick it out a little longer and not S. It was after this second incident I found DR.
3rd bomb was on 12/28/02. Found out that my W had an A--from 12/01-9/02 (EA "kind of" continued until I found out). I suspected for some time (and explains much of her behavior), but it still hit me hard. But after this bomb my W has said that she is back to work on our M, and is acting more like her old self (kind of...still a WAS). However, one day she thinks things will work out and next day, she has HUGE doubts--hence the name of my thread.
After the last bomb my W said she wanted to work on the M. And I have to hand it to her, she's really trying. Problem is, she still does not feel "in love" with me, but I'm hoping that over time she will. The first few weeks after I found out about the A have been choppy, to say the least. But now I feel like I've got my head a bit better and my W seems less prone to alien episodes.
So, now she's back, mentally, and we're working to repair the hurts of the past and move onward. My last thread is
Vacillations of a WAW Come Home.
I had a good couple of days, which I'm going to post about next...
jethro
He gang.
So, the last couple of days have gone well. Last night my W was surprised to find out about the Murder Mystery Theatre gig I arranged. Like I said the other day, she guessed it...at least we were already on our way when she did.
It was a lot of fun. We had a lot of laughs and interacted with the actors quite a bit...actually had one come and sit at our table before the show and pretend to be a patron! That was fantastic...we were still laughing about it today! I suspected he was one of the actors, but my W bought his story, hook, line, and sinker!
So, after the show we went to do some Karaoke. We got home late and stayed up even later (
)... All in all, a good evening with lots of laughs.
This morning we went to workout together, then my mom dropped the kids off at our place. We went shopping for all sorts of stuff. The interesting topic of yesterday and today is the fact that my W wants to totally redo our house. Now, admittedly, it does need some work, but she actually said something like, "now that all this stuff is over I kind of want to start fresh." It was nice to hear that...kind of like she's trying to rebuild our R by rebuilding our home. I later asked her whether this is just some distration, or that she was really wanting to do this for the right reasons. She said she really wants to...
Now, you guys are probably wonder why I asked this. It's because she says much of her life has just been one distraction after another...even OM...not getting to the root of her issues. I just wanted clarification here.
So, we went out as a family and bought some stuff. I started feeling crummy a couple of hours into it, so we went home. I was a bit grumpy and tried not to be, so I'm hoping my W is cool...seemed like it...
Now, we've had a couple of really nice days. She's been by my side pretty much the whole time. I'm wondering how she's feeling. It's odd for me because I don't remember the last time we spent so much time together without her having to bail for "some space." Given her pattern, I can expect her to take off for a little while tomorrow. That's okay...
So, that's really it. Nothing huge, no real enlightenments...just jethro and his family. I like that.
jethro
Hiya Jethro,
It's 4 am and I couldn't sleep. Getting over a cold. So, I came to the puter to read and spotted your previous thread. Read the whole darn thing.
You express your feelings really well. I had several "ah hah!" moments while reading. Sometimes my emotions get so bundled up that I have a hard time analyzing them. So, thank you! I recognize myself in your writings and feel better for it!
You sound like you are doing better.
Keep up the good work.
Hugs.
Wow, J. I am so happy for you keep up the good work. Abby
hey jethro,
sounds like a couple of really great days!!
LL
Quoting jethro:
So, that's really it. Nothing huge, no real enlightenments...just jethro and his family. I like that.
That's what it's all about!
rjj
Jethro,
Im doing a little happy dance for you (in my head, they would take me to the loony bin if I was dancing in my office). Sounds good. That helps the PMA doesnt it?
Quote:
Now, you guys are probably wonder why I asked this. It's because she says much of her life has just been one distraction after another...even OM...not getting to the root of her issues. I just wanted clarification here.
I dont know that I read that one before about the distractions. OM being a distraction is an absolutely huge thing for her to say. You have to be happy that she knows that. Im glad that she knows this. Wish my W would say something like that to me.
Jethro,
First of all I have to express my appreciation for your insight and support on my thread. The BB is the only place to find people who know exactly how I feel and what I am going through. Th empathy I get is a tremendous help.
Second, I want to apologize for not dropping by here sooner. I have to limit my time on the BB, and I don't get around to friends as much as I would like. I just spent a few minutes reading over this thread and your previous one, and I am impressed by your progress.
You have found out about your W's affair, dealt with it, and are now moving past it. Very commendable. I think your wife is saying and doing all the right things now. I agree with Floyd, her admitting that the A was just a distraction from her own personal problems is huge on her part. We hear all the time that an OP is just a symptom of marital problems, and here your wife realizes that and acknowledges it. A very big and important step.
I applaud your insistence that W end it with OM while you listen in. She knows that you mean business, and expect nothing less than complete faithfulness. I think she respects you for that, whether she admits it or not. Like the others who have posted here, I agree that you need to continue to put it behind you. Looks like you are doing a good job of it.
Keep focusing on the positives. You know the drill. There will be bad days, but you should be okay as long as you remember your DB skills. Hang in there, Jethro...good things to come.
Robbie
It's so nice to hear from everyone. I've been light on the board the last few days...also been busy at work.
PIT, thanks for coming by. I have read some of your posts in the past, and I'm glad mine can offer some of those "ah hah" moments for you.
Abby, LL, and RJJ, things keep rolling along...
Floyd, I never really looked at how insignificant OM seems when my W said he was just a distraction. Even though I'd like to believe this, I think he was a bit more of a distraction.
Yesterday wasn't a good day for me. I kept thinking about the A. Sometimes it's just so darn difficult to get those images out of my mind. I wasn't Mr. Wonderful to be around, but I think my W understands. I just need to try and get a handle on it because it doesn't help our sitch.
I had a nightmare last night where I was asking my W if there were any others, and she said, "throughout our M there were probably about 10."
It was very vivid and very awful. I told my W about it and she tried to reassure that this was the only time. We all know how much worse things are in the middle of the night. It was not a good dream after all the crap I'd been feeling throughout the day.
She called me at work this morning asking how I was doing. I said fine, then she requested I not bring these things up in the middle of the night anymore. She's having a hard enough time lately sleeping with all of her crap that I don't think she wants anything to disrupt what sound sleep she's able to get. I said okay. She said we could talk about it later and I said that sometimes I just have a hard time and that's why my mood changes...and that I didn't want to talk about it later.
I feel so sad sometimes. Like most of you know, the betrayal is almost unbearable. I was telling Umbrella the other day that it's amazing how we talk on the BB about such severely abnormal behavior as "normal." You know, everyday conversation... I know it's negative, but it's like we've lowered the bar on humanity or something...to accept this behavior and try and make it work with these people. Today I feel like "it's all for the kids." I know I should have a forgiving heart, but I've temporarily lost it...
Sorry for the ramblings.
jethro
Thanks, Robbie. We cross-posted, so I missed what you wrote before I submitted my latest rant... I appreciate the kind words. Although in some ways it might appear I've move passed certain things, I certainly don't think I have. Overall, I feel better, but those bad days keep cropping up here and there. I know I have a lot to be thankful for...it's just hard seeing it for what it is sometimes...seeing it through the haze of the pain I oftentimes feel.
I love my W, deep down she's a good person, and a very good mother. Although everyone sees the positives in my sitch, I know her best, have known her more than half my life, and truly question whether things will work out. I guess time will tell.
I'm off for home and will turn on the DB switch. In an obvious way, I find when I'm doing well, she pretty much is too. Instead of me gauging my moods based on her moods, she's now doing that with me. I guess I have to be extra careful.
Later.
jethro
Good morning, Jethro
Just popping in once before I leave for work.
So often we hear that DB is like an endurance race. The difference is that we have no idea how long this race is, an we have absolutely no control over whether we will finish or not. Maybe it's more like a endurance race where we are tied to a partner, a three-legged endurance race, and we don't know how strong or dedicated our partner is.
Like a race, we start off fast and strong...full of hope and promise. Then as we put miles behind us, as we climb hill after hill and see nothing ahead but more hills, we can become discouraged. Our partner drags us down or stumbles or becomes distracted. We get so tied doing all the work and pulling all the weight. We need the support of the cheering crowds along the road to spur us on. They can tell us...sometimes even better than we ourselves...how we are doing. That's what the people on the BB are for.
Quote:
I know I have a lot to be thankful for...it's just hard seeing it for what it is sometimes...seeing it through the haze of the pain I often times feel.
Sometimes we are standing so close to a situation, we can't see the big picture. We need other perspectives. Believe me, I'm not one who believes in giving false hope. That really screwed up my attempts at DBing...I became addicted to the "atta boys" and "pats on the back". You and your wife have made a hell of a lot of progress since October. A good, positive start. Remember that it's just a start. There is much more to come. Suck it up, grab your second wind, and settle in for the long haul. Take encouragement from the people here urging you on. Whether you believe it or not, your sitch gives a lot of hope to others.
Quote:
I'm off for home and will turn on the DB switch.
There you go...
Robbie
I don't know what to advice (my own situation is so bad). But I feel that you are lucky in the sense that your wife is TALKING to you, giving you reassuring comments. My H is not. Maybe men are less wordy. He hates talking.
My H's actions are sometime encouraging. He is less withdrawn. But things he says kills me... kicks me right back to the starting point.
ok. It's only been 2 weeks since I moved back. It's a short ime. But I already feel these 'hills' every other day. Robbie is right. It's is indeed an endurance race. My friends/family thinks I will never get there without his sincere involvement.
Get on with our lives.. as Michelle says. I am seriously considering going to a dating agency. Even if I meet creepy people, it will help me to heal and become stronger, no matter what the outcome is. Perhaps I am scared of jumping off a boat into the deep blue sea. Perhaps I need a boat to jump to .... I feel like a bitch making these comments. But I do feel incrediby helpless.
We don't have any children. Neither do we have any finanicial ties. We are totally independent in that respect. Divorce for us can be done in 1/2 a day. Very easy indeed. Perhaps I should give him credit for staying with me even though it is just the GUILT, & even without kids .......
Jethro,
Just checkin in on you.
Sometimes you take the words right out of my mouth. I know exactly how you feel.
I also had my first dream about the A about a week ago. It was horrible, but I woke up alone with nobody to help comfort me. Mine was almost the same, I found out about multiple men. In my dream I pretty much lost it. Not a good dream.
Anyway, I hope today is a better day for you. I know its up and down day by day, so today should be a good one (hopefully).
Quoting jethro:
it's amazing how we talk on the BB about such severely abnormal behavior as "normal." You know, everyday conversation... I know it's negative, but it's like we've lowered the bar on humanity or something...to accept this behavior and try and make it work with these people.
The nature of this support board is such, that it is commonplace to have these discussion, and when something is commonplace it gives the appearance of being normal But the behavior on an individual level is
not normal. We certainly don't expect our spouses to carry on with such behavior as part of their norm.
On the other hand, it appears commonplace for a person to experience a period of self doubt during their lifetime which can cause a person to lose themselves. Where a distorted view can lead them to believe that such inappropriate behavior is not so inappropriate. Usually, with the right kind of caring support, the person can find their way back.
Now the question is, should the mistakes a person has made when they lost their way but now is found, continue to devast the remainder of their lives and those that love them? Because they stumble, do we insist the fall flat on their face or reach out a hand in support? Which will make
you feel better? Knowing you can lend the support the less unfortunate need to regain a chance at having a fullfilling life or that you would turn your back on them because it pains you to much that they have fallen? This is why forgiveness is a gift you give yourself, because in the end you have to answer, "Which kind of person do I want to be?"
Please don't take offense as I not trying to take a direct line of questioning at you jethro, but as rhetorical questions we each need to reflect on.
'til later,
KAW
Such profound and philosophical responses...
Robbie, your analogy is pretty good. It is a race, marathon, or triathalon...(give me my oxygen tank and a liter of Gatorade)... Without Michele's books and everyone's encouragement on this BB, I probably would have given in to the pain and given up. And yes, I have a hard time seeing the big picture. Every day is a challenge.
MsSad, I'm sorry you're feeling as though you need to contact a dating service. Yes, my W does give me reassuring words, but remember, she ended the A about four months ago (at least the physical part). Your H has just recently done it. The wounds are still entirely too fresh...for both of you.
Hey Floyd, good to hear from you. I can't help but think I'm you so many months ahead. You know what I mean?
KAW, always a pleasure, my friend. I take no offense to your rhetorical comments/questions. Believe me, all that you have said has entered my mind at one time or another. I'm constantly "meditating" on my situation...trying to find peace with it. Peace for me is forgiveness in recognizing that my W is in pain and has made a mistake that she regrets. Peace for me is pushing those images out of my head with her and the OM. Peace would be knowing that she feels about me the way she thinks she should feel about her H. The first two things are achievable. The last, I'm not so sure about. This is what really keeps me up at night. I know, detach, I have no control. For now, it comes down to one thing: I will not be responsible for inflicting on my children the kind of pain she has inflicted upon me...by splitting up or by giving up. Time, patience, and forgiveness...none of which are easy...
Thanks all.
jethro
Quote:
Time, patience, and forgiveness...none of which are easy...
no none of them are easy but nothing good comes easy, you get what you pay for...I could go on and on with the cliches (sp)
we are not the first to walk this path, sadly we will not be the last either, but we can get to where we want to be it may take longer than we like.
LL
Quoting jethro:
Such profound and philosophical responses...
Jethro,
It's true! I am feeling a little out of my league here, with nothing much intelligent to offer (see the title of my latest thread
). Anyway, I can still give hugs! {{{{{{{{{{Jethro}}}}}}}}}}}}
take care!
rjj
Hi J. I hate to ask but could you look at my stitch. I would like your input too. I leave in an hour to go see H.
Thanks LL and RJJ.
Well, nothing big has been happening the last couple of days. Pretty much biz as usual in the Jethro household. Gotta love those "regular" days, right LL?
Yesterday evening went rather nicely. I went to Yoga, mellowed out, and came home afterwards. My D was asleep, but my boy was still awake. He wanted to play for me the new song he learned at his piano lesson. He's quite the prodigy...first day he learned it he can play it...blows me away! Well, he's got music in his blood--FIL and MIL were in band when they were pregnant with W. FIL has recording studio (we've made some CDs), FIL plays a few instuments and sings, MIL sings and was a concert pianist, W sings and plays a little piano, and I play guitar (no singing please). Kid's got it in his blood and I'm so proud!
Anyway, we put my S to bed and W goes to bed herself. Huh!?!? It was kind of early. I went into the bedroom and she was just laying in the covers. I said, "You're in bed already?" She responded, "It sounded cozy." So, I sat on the bed and we talked for a good hour about this and that...a REALLY nice talk.
At one point, the discussion of my mother came up. My W gets annoyed with my mom because she's very tense...hence the reason I have a history of that myself, I'm sure. So, my W says, "I want to surround myself with people that are doing stuff like what we're doing." (meaning, all of the self-discovery stuff). I was very happy to hear her say "we" in this context. Then she recounted a conversation she had with my mom the other day that annoyed her. I simply told her that it's unimportant to get so riled up about this stuff...that it's only our egos that allow us to feel like we need vindication, etc. Guys, I was good and not "fixing." Her response was, "Okay, Zen Buddhist Master! I can't believe I'm hearing you say all this stuff that I've been reading about!"
She was good natured about it. Chock one up for Jethro!!!
This morning I told her that I enjoyed our talk last night and she said she did too. I feel like, for whatever reason, we gained some intimacy last night...and I feel the positive afteraffects of it today (even on the telephone). It's great...like we're connecting. I think she feels it too. I can sense it from the tone of her voice and stuff. I WANT MORE DAYS LIKE THIS!
Until next time...
jethro
Quoting jethro:
It's great...like we're connecting. I think she feels it too. I can sense it from the tone of her voice and stuff. I WANT MORE DAYS LIKE THIS!
ITS WHAT WE ALL WANT, EACH AND EVERYONE OF US!!!
Its great that now the two of you are starting believe you can obtain it.
'til later,
KAW
Jethro,
How is your day going today? Just checkin in. Hope its another day like the last one.
Jethro,
I pray those good days just keep coming for you!
rjj
I am so happy for you. You are getting what all of us want. What a great example of how things will change w/ a little work.
Hello all. Thanks for stopping by LL, KAW, Floyd, RJJ, Abby, and PMA2002. BTW, PMA, I assume your note is some reference to the Beverly Hillbillies? I know very little about that show. My screen name is actually based on Jethro Tull...an excellent band...
So, interesting things are afoot in the Jethro household these days. I decided to take Thursday and Friday off because there's little to do at work and lots of honey-dos (and jethro-dos) at home.
Anyway, Thursday my W and I get into a really big R talk. It all began when I asked her to participate in an exercise that's in "After the Affair," where we each rate (from 1 to 5) our most important needs. Needs include affection, conversation, sex, household stuff, financial support, etc....there's about 10...simliar to "5 Love Languages." I wanted to do this exercise so I could better identify her needs and log those credits into her "love bank." Well, instead of using one of the 10 choices, she added her own #1 need! Can anyone guess what it is? "To continue respecting the fact that she needs space." This is her #1! This comes before anything at all on the list! Unfortunately, I got irritated, which didn't go over too well. So that didn't start things off very well.
Then she got irritated with me because my #1 was sex. Well, of course right now it's sex, W, because that's pretty much all I've gotten from you this last year. Maybe if I had gotten some of the other stuff on my list it wouldn't be so important!
This I explained to her as my justification. Next was affection, though.
She went on to justify hers as me giving her time at home alone, continue to support her need to get out, etc. I'm sorry, but this bugs because we're supposed to be working on us...not running away at every opportunity. Fortunately, over some debate we both began to understand each person's position. At least her #2 was conversation...that one's easy...
So, overall, she pretty much rated that she was satisfied in all 1-5 areas of her survey when it came to me doing these things for her. This also bugged because I was hoping for some good information to use to rack up those love units. I guess I'm perfect...
Naturally, mine was a bit more harsh. She wasn't defensive though, and said she'd try and meet some of those needs.
Literally, with distractions, it takes us hours to get through this survey because we dragged all sorts of other crap into our talk. Not too bad, but it was there. I wasn't the best DBer by any means, but I think I did okay considering. She was pretty good too, so I have to give credit where credit is due. At one point she even said, "Aren't you saying stuff that it says not to say in the book (After the Affair) because it doesn't help when having these conversations?" I stopped myself and just had to agree with her and move on. She was right.
We get through all of this stuff and I'm feeling awful. I ask her how she feels and she's fine. I think my feelings had something to do with knowing she had plans to go our Karaoking with my sister that night. Not to the bar where she met OM, but another one. It's the first girl's night out since I found out about the A, so I was on my toes a bit. She knew I was uncomfortable and I told her so when she asked. She kept trying to reassure me. So, to highlight the evening she said a few both nice and interesting things:
- "OM is not half the man you are." I asked why she said this. "At 33 you have come to a certain place that he's nowhere near at 47." A bit of a cryptic answer, but I knew what she meant. I was a good PMA booster.
- "It's over with the OM." Of course, I've heard that before, but she can never say it enough sometimes.
- "I will never have an A again because the stress is overwhelming. My stress is a little better these days, but it's so bad that I'm worried it's going to really affect my health somehow." This worried me, so I suggested medication temporarily. She doesn't want to do that, but if it gets her over the hump who cares?
- She talked about OM a little, which was very wierd. She told me certain things like, his personality and beliefs are similar to mine. I had to stop that one because his beliefs ARE NOT similar to mine. I was not happy about hearing I'm similar to this scum, but she just said that she thought it was interesting that she was attracted to someone with a similar personality. Whatever... She also went on to say some negative things about OM, which I was very happy to hear. It was quite strange hearing these things, but it didn't really bother me, except for the similarity thing.
We decided not to talk about any of this crap on Friday because we were both burned out. At the end of the day it was a good talk. She never went singing because the other bar didn't have it on Thursday. My sister came over in the evening to visit a little, then left. My W and I talked some more...mostly it was the conversation about OM that I previously mentioned.
In the end it was good. Today was also good. She's being a little wierd tonight, but she's probably sick of me.
Oh well...
I have a lot of catching up to do tonight on other threads.
jethro
Quote:
Then she got irritated with me because my #1 was sex.
I hate to say it but this would probably be pretty high on my list right now too. I think her problem is she did that w/OM and is not ready yet. Dont worry too much about it.
Quote:
At one point she even said, "Aren't you saying stuff that it says not to say in the book (After the Affair) because it doesn't help when having these conversations?" I stopped myself and just had to agree with her and move on. She was right.
Wow. She is learning better than you!
Good for her. Instead of getting mad about it she is able to turn you around. That sounds great to me.
Quote:
She talked about OM a little, which was very wierd. She told me certain things like, his personality and beliefs are similar to mine. I had to stop that one because his beliefs ARE NOT similar to mine. I was not happy about hearing I'm similar to this scum, but she just said that she thought it was interesting that she was attracted to someone with a similar personality.
You know these SAMS will try to justify their behavior. She wants to think that she didnt make a huge mistake just a mistake. Dont let it get to you b/c the statement before that she contridicts herself by saying
Quote:
"OM is not half the man you are."
IMHO I think you need to slow down abit. Patience. You will get there but it will take time. I think that is why she is still crying for breathing space. Just tell yourself this is the beginning of the marthon; you have got to pace yourself. (((Jethro))) Abby
hey jethro,
stopping by quickly (don't have alot of time dd just woke up from nap)
things seem to be going well but it seems to me that in a short amount of time you and w have been having alot of r talks. this can be good but it can also end up being overload.
maybe it would be best to for now at least try to just focus on enjoying eachother...doing nice things together like you did the other night going to dinner...or even better the other night when w went to bed early and you had a nice conversation. seems like maybe the activities in the books are not something to work on right now...or pace them out...once a month type thing with time set aside for it (noticed you said there were interuptions during the activity and that is not a good thing)
do have to run as I hear dd calling....maaameeee? maameee?? oh gotta love um...just had a snow ball fight with s (3) and h is napping on the couch in "cave".
LL
HI, patience....if #1 is space...then I think you should honor that..and don't get mad at me, while I too miss the sex(10 months) is that really number 1, you have alot of things to work on and of course anger and hurt to deal with..give her the space she needs, leave her alone for awhile. work on some things for you.
Sue
Good morning, Jethro
Good stuff all around. You and W are well along into the reconnecting process, and she seems like a willing participant. It's easy to want to speed things along and get back to where you used to be. I agree with LL...too many OR talks might cause some overload. Maybe take your foot off the gas and hit the brakes for a bit.
Robbie
Hey guys. Thanks for visiting. Well, consensus says that I need to chill out. Honestly guys, it's not that bad. She's open to the discussions and I don't feel as though we have them all that often...you just hear about them because that's mostly what I post about.
Quoting Abby:
I hate to say it but this would probably be pretty high on my list right now too. I think her problem is she did that w/OM and is not ready yet. Dont worry too much about it.
A cruel reality, Abby, is that she was more sexually "active" with me during her A because I think it turned her on.
Things have tapered off a bit.
Quoting hoping:
don't get mad at me, while I too miss the sex(10 months) is that really number 1?
Well, it's number 1 for a reason, Sue. Basically, sex is the ONLY thing I've gotten from my W for the last year and a half. She was totally closed off from me in pretty much all other ways. Therefore, I was minimally having my needs met this way...and have come to "rely" on it in some cases. I know that as some of my different needs are met (oh...like general affection, caring, tenderness, etc.), I'll be less focused on sex. This is what I tried to explain to my W...with very little success. So, really, it's a temporary #1. Does this make sense?
The rest of my weekend was much like any other family--time with the kids, chores, having people over for dinner, etc. It was nice having Thursday and Friday off. Nothing really new to report...just keeping it together. Yesterday I went out of my way to do those "acts of service" for my W. I replaced the vacuum cleaner bag, vacuumed the house, tidied up, washed dishes, cleaned the stove, and helped cook dinner. On Friday I fixed a couple of sinks and installed a new dimmer switch for the light in our dining room. I've been a busy jethro.
So, all in all, it was a good weekend...had some nice time with my W and the kids. Nothing earth shattering... My thoughts about her A are dimming a little. I don't obsess over it as much...still hurts often, however. It does show me that over time I'll gradually feel better. Problem is, the paranoia still exists about future A possibilities. I assume this will also dim...
jethro
Quote:
Well, it's number 1 for a reason, Sue. Basically, sex is the ONLY thing I've gotten from my W for the last year and a half. She was totally closed off from me in pretty much all other ways. Therefore, I was minimally having my needs met this way...and have come to "rely" on it in some cases. I know that as some of my different needs are met (oh...like general affection, caring, tenderness, etc.), I'll be less focused on sex. This is what I tried to explain to my W...with very little success. So, really, it's a temporary #1. Does this make sense?
but because it is something that was there and is still there even if to a lesser degree...would it not make sense to put the other needs ahead of it? I only say this since it seems you did/do have a problem with the fact that this need was being filled even during the "bad" times, so then perhaps since that need was being filled why not focus on some other parts of the r for "intimacy" and let the "sex" take a back seat.
glad to hear your feeling better about the a, the pain will fade with time.
LL
Jethro,
I understand you having sex as #1 right now, because that is the only form of affection that you have been given for a while. All of the other stuff might not feel like affection. But I also agree with LL that if your W would start kissing you every day when you got home from work, wouldnt that make you feel great too? I think that those little things will take over the sex thing soon, very soon, as long as she starts giving a little bit in the areas that you need it. I honestly think that the only thing that you need right now is reassurance, and I think that if she showed you she was thinking of you, you would feel more comfortable.
I was going to throw in some Jethro Lyrics, but thought that Locomotive Breath would be a bad choice.
I did put Aqualung in, just for you. Havent listened to it for a while. Who else can turn the flute into a rock instrument? Only Ian Anderson.
Hey LL and Owen.
Quoting LL:
I only say this since it seems you did/do have a problem with the fact that this need was being filled even during the "bad" times, so then perhaps since that need was being filled why not focus on some other parts of the r for "intimacy" and let the "sex" take a back seat.
Hmmm...you've got a good point, LL. Problem is, this is what I know.
I don't know what else to say, as the well has been dry for some time on so many of the other fronts. Yes, it's getting better. Yes, she's showing me more affection, paying more attention to me, etc. I guess what I really want I cannot have--for her to tell me she loves me...give me those verbal sweet-talking messages--so I try and find comfort in other ways because I have no other choice. In other words, she's not prepared to give me X, so I have to ask for Y until things seem better. I DO KNOW that my list will change over time. This is very difficult to explain...
Quoting Floyd:
I think that those little things will take over the sex thing soon, very soon, as long as she starts giving a little bit in the areas that you need it. I honestly think that the only thing that you need right now is reassurance, and I think that if she showed you she was thinking of you, you would feel more comfortable.
You hit it on the head, Owen. But what is "reassurance?" Reassurance that she won't have an A? Reassurance that she's here to work it out? Reassurance that she knows she loves me deep down and will find that love again? I need lots of reassurances, but I'm not getting all of them. I understand, too. The pain is still fresh, she's still unconvinced, she tells me it's day by day... I want more, but can't expect it. So, I'm back to patience, right?
I find that I can understand her feelings better when she's talking about other people in similar circumstances. I told her about Umbrella...since we talk on the phone sometimes. She said, "I empathize with each of them." Well, I guess that's better than her saying, she's all for U's W, but still... Also, remember that guy I called and told about DR when he was having M problems (one of the Karaoke husbands who has a WAW)? My W talked to his W this morning and she's lonely now that she's in her own apartment...and OM does not feel the same way about her as she does about him. So now, she's trying to work it out with her H, but she's on the fence. So, she and my W are having this conversation and I was so glad that my W heard that this gal is unhappy about living alone. So, this gal asked my W how she and I were doing (doesn't know about the A, but knows we're having troubles). My W said she's not going out as much and staying more at home to work on our M. In my opinion, this was a good conversation for both of them. Each was coming from the same WAW scenario, but each did something different--gal isn't happy living alone, and my W is focusing on the M and going out less.
The universe works in strange ways. Funny thing, gal doesn't know that I have talked to her H...
Anyway, onward and upward...
jethro
Jethro,
I think that conversation was good between the two WAW's. Good for you for giving that guy DR. I am sure that it helped him out a lot. I remember you saying that you did that for him, I am glad it is working out for him.
Rassurance is all of those things that you mentioned. A little is better than none, and I think that she will start to give you those reassurances a little at a time.
Quote:
Problem is, this is what I know.
yes, this is what you know, but is that really true?? you know that you feel loved when your w is sexual with you but do you know that she is loving you when she has sex with you?? if you keep in mind that everybody has their own way of expressing "love" and "feelings of care" and all that mumbo, then perhaps you will be better able to put that focus elsewhere.
I too know sex as a means of expressing "love" so when h isn't giving it to me I take it as his not loving me etc...does me no good to think this way as it only serves to get me into trouble and our r into trouble. "sex" is not his way...and the more I learn to "know" that, the better able I am to "feel" loved by him when I can look over what it is that I "think" makes me feel loved and see how he shows love. is he showing me in his way? yes. am I hearing all the things I want to hear? no. am I getting all the physical attention I want? no, but I've decided that instead of resenting h for it and feeling down about it, I accept that it does not mean he doesn't love me, just means he's tired and not as ambitious as I when it comes to that.
LL did I make any sense??
jethro..it does make sense..and until you brought it up I hadn't thought too much about it..as I was thinking about our past 2 years when all these changes were slowly starting and the distancing was beginning, our sex was good..we have always connected there, even after 24 yrs!..so I guess I see your point, as h and I have never beeen close in other areas the sex was all I got..I was devastated when it all ended last March..almost as much as our m being in real trouble..now while I sure miss it, I am seeing that there can be so much more to a r then the "sex".
So thank you for bringing up a very private part of a r...one more great thing about all the friends I have met..opening up subjects and ideas to get us thinking about all sorts of different things.I feel like I have matured and am learning for the first time in my life what a true r between two people should be.
Sorry I rambled on your thread..I am just so excited about "things"
Sue
Quote:
I told her about Umbrella...since we talk on the phone sometimes. She said, "I empathize with each of them." Well, I guess that's better than her saying, she's all for U's W, but still...
Egads, now I've got your W upset with me too?
Actually, I can't believe I used the word "egads".
Seiously jethro, keep plugging away. I looks like the pain is slowly subsiding, for both of you. And while she hasn't acutally said ILY, she is showing it in many many ways. Don't lose sight of that. She will say it, probably when you least expect it.
Hey all. I am stirring the pot here on the sex issue I see...
Floyd, yes, I agree the discussion between the two WAWs was beneficial to each of them. Of course, my W is a little further along in the healing process, but nonetheless, it's good that she hears it ain't so great on the living alone side.
LL, you're tough...really pinning me down on this one. I feel as though I'm not making my point very well. Maybe it's because I don't have a very good one?!?!
Basically, it comes down to the fact that sex now helps me feel connected to her. This will evolve over time when I begin to connect with her in different ways. For now, sex is a means to an end...a way to keep me going, so to speak, while the other connections begin to flourish.
Sue, you can ramble any time you please. No worries. I fully agree that, "there can be so much more to a r than the 'sex.'" I have had this some years back and am excitedly anticipating the reconnection to these things.
Hey Jim! My W's not upset with you. She just "feels" for each of you guys. Yes, I'm waiting for the infamous ILY, but I don't expect to hear it for some time yet. It's okay...I can wait. Other things do seem to be coming along nicely, so it makes it easier to wait.
Until next time...
jethro
LL
Oh, I get it now. I misinterpreted what she said. Don't worry, I was just faking being upset. Sometimes I forget that mock surprise doesn't convey well on a BB.
Hmmm...just wanted to stop by and say there's nothing to report. Just living life as jethro and family. I "worked from home" yesterday.
I actually did a few things, but it was light. My W had some orientation for a project she's going to do and needed me to watch our D...so it gave me an excuse to work from home. I'm glad she's taking it upon herself to do these things. Also, my W is very motivated to do stuff to our house these days. I really think she wants a fresh start, not only in our R, but in our home as well. I'm encouraging her enthusiasm.
It does seem like day-by-day she's getting closer to me. If I think back two or three weeks even, she seems even more comfortable around me today. She was pretty goofy yesterday, which was fun. Unfortunately, OM thoughts kept entering my head...I think it was because I had another nightmare. It got me down, but not too bad. Nothing like it would have even a month ago. She notices my distant stares and asks if I'm okay. I smile and say yes, but she knows what I'm thinking about. I just try to avoid conversations about her A as they really serve no purpose...only remind her of her infidelity and the pain she has placed upon me. Yes, it feeds my ego, but it is not good for our R. I'm realizing this more and more.
Anyway, feeling pretty good. Had a good Yoga session last night, then went over the ILs to jam a bit. This morning I worked out pretty hard, so I'm sore. All in all, I can't complain...
jethro
Quote:
All in all, I can't complain...
glad to hear things going well!!
LL
Okay, well, "it" finally happened last night...
I get home and I could tell my W was bit distant...in her WAW mode somewhat (but not bad). We get in the car with the kids and go get something to eat. Kids are bickering in the back seat and my W is getting a little frustrated while I'm trying to diffuse their bickering. I turn to my W and say, "You want to run away?" (she knows what I mean by this)... Her response, "Yes." I then went on to tell her I could turn around and go home so she could bail. I was sincere, as I didn't want her to have that trapped feeling. She said, "No." So, off to dinner we went.
It ended up being an enjoyable evening. We went to grab a quick bite, looked at some furniture, and went to Home Depot. Like I said previously, she's motivated to change things in our house, so we're looking at different things to do to our house.
We get home and put the kids to bed. We end up downstairs talking...me on the couch...she on the Lazyboy. We talk a few minutes, exchange a few smiles, then all of a sudden she says, "You're sweet." I say, "Thanks. That's nice of you to say. Why do you say that?" Her response, "Because it's true." I said thanks again.
Then, she stares at me for a moment, our eyes locked, and says, "I love you." I was floored, really. Wasn't even sure I heard her right. It's odd...like time slowed down and my brain took a second to "accept" her words. Naturally, after the momentary shock, I responded in kind.
We exchanged a few smiles without saying anything. She got up and I gave her a kiss. Nothing else was said about it, but I felt like I was on a cloud...
Now, I have no illusions that this is what she's feeling all of the time; however, at least I know she's feeling that love sometimes and telling me. Over time, I think she'll feel it more and more often. Patience...
jethro
Major props!! I'm really happy for you.
Jim
me to... Jethro. Need some champagne here. Well done. You must be floating by now.
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
GOPHER DANCE!!!!! &&&&&&&&&&&&&&
(check out the link)
Way to go Jethro...
Doing good my friend!!!
Hi guy!
Just stopped by to say Hi. Dwnlded your thread and will catch up and get back to you. I'm over in MLC and still in newcomers. Can't hang to long in MLC but I'm tryingnto learn all I can.
Jethro got an ILY! Jethro got an ILY! Jethro got an ILY! Jethro got an ILY! Jethro got an ILY! Jethro got an ILY! Jethro got an ILY! Jethro got an ILY! Jethro got an ILY! Jethro got an ILY! Jethro got an ILY! Jethro got an ILY! Jethro got an ILY! Jethro got an ILY!
What more can I say. Im smiling.
ILY!!!!!!!!!!!!! You lucky sucker!!!!!!Praise the lord.
I am so happy for you! Drink it up with gusto friend!
You are an inspiration. You are the man!!!!
Jethro:
Quote:
... however, at least I know she's feeling that love sometimes and telling me. Over time, I think she'll feel it more and more often. Patience...
You got your action plan - Patience. You're in a marathon and have gotten a welcome stretch of road but there will still be those hills to run. What I wouldn't give to hear a ILY from my W!
In the end, you're the best judge on what to do and how fast to move. We're all happy for you, Jethro!
Thanks for swinging by. I needed a little boost. Talk to you later.
Jim
jethro, i am so happy for you!!!!yay!!!!!lisa
Hey Jethro,
This ain't no baby step neither...Its huge!!
Everything seems to be falling into place for you.
Very
'til later,
KAW
Thanks everyone for stopping by! Yes, I'm pleased...what can I say? Oddly enough, yesterday I got "scared." Can't really explain exactly. But, now that I'm on the road to recovery I kind of feel like now I have no choice but to continue. Weird, huh? It's not that I'm disappointed or anything...just scared...
Last night I noticed something interesting. So, as everyone knows, my wife needs to get out and blow off some steam, as she occasionally gets this trapped feeling. Yesterday I get this e-mail that she was going to leave as soon as I got home. No problem, as I told her to let me know when she needs space. So, I get home last night and she's kind of preparing to leave, but we end up chit chatting about this and that. Well, she ends up hanging around for a couple of hours, eats dinner with us, then goes. I see this as very positive because it really seems like she's enjoying my company. It's a shift from "tolerating" me to enjoying being around me.
Moving right along...
jethro
Wow Jethro. I am soooo happy for you. You are doing great.
Keep up the good work!
I think feeling scared is a normal response.
For many people on the board, it seems like they get scared/anxious once the relationship is out of crisis mode and into Piecing mode.
I think you are doing great!
Hugs.
Quoting jethro:
Then, she stares at me for a moment, our eyes locked, and says, "I love you."
Happy, happy tears for you, Jethro!
rjj
Jethro...sooo happy for you...you have waited along time for some signs of hope...PATIENCE....does pay off....don't let old habits creep back in...it can be so easy to let our new changes backslide, but you are proof that they are worth it all.
Sue
Thanks to everyone for stopping by. I'm in somewhat of a quandry...and maybe you guys have some insight. You see, I've been in a strange place the last couple of days. I think I've had to cut off some of my feelings in order to deal with the A. Now, I'm feeling rather apathetic about everything...don't feel those deep feelings like I was. It's making me uncomfortable and empty. Is this a natural progression to this crap, then those feelings will come back? Honestly, I think I'd rather feel the pain more if that meant I'd be able to "feel" more.
I get this picture in my head of cutting out a piece of my heart...the bad part that had to be changed to change the dynamics of my R...as well as trying to remove the pain of the A. However, I think some of the good ended up getting cut out at the same time.
I don't like this feeling... Any insights would be much appreciated.
jethro
I understand your feelings though I arrived at them differently (h left) I eventually stopped looking at h as a man I "wanted" to be with...he was the father of my children...when he first came home there were some nights when I would sit on the couch while he was here and wonder what I was doing?? why was saving this m so important to me..had a thought that perhaps I was feeling then like he had felt before he left (only diff being I didn't have an ongoing ea to leave for).
I don't think it is wrong or bad to be feeling the way you are..it sounds like a bit of detachment and there is nothing wrong with it...infact it may be your key to finding a happy healthy fullfilling r with your w.
I think that what may have happend in our r's is that we stopped looking at our spouses as people and held them in a seperate class than all others..they were our love, our life our someone special...fact is they are just people no different than any others...they have faults they have strengths and it is only when we take off those rose colored glasses that we used to view them from and see them for the regular people they are that we can begin to accept them and learn to appreciate them for them and not hoping they live up to the them that we hold in our hearts.
it's time for both of us to let go of the past and start to view our spouses for the adults they've become and not the kids we met years ago.
LL trying to learn as she goes and wishes she were as confident as she posts on others threads!!
makea good day for you jethro, you truly are a great man!!
Hi - hope you don't mind me ducking in here. I'm coming over from the MLC thread as my H and I appear to be working on things.
But I was feeling exactly these types of emotions and wondering if anyone else was too. We've worked so hard to get our spouses back and now they are, for the most part, and we wonder why we were fighting so hard, in a way.
I just don't feel the intensity of emotion right now and I've got people pushing on me in all kinds of directions. Everyone wanting me to feel what they feel I should feel and telling me that I don't understand my feelings. It's very difficult.
It is not helped by the fact that I am at home living with family right now and my H is very far away, so our communications are complicated by that.
Sorry for the thread hijack, but it's nice to know that others share my feelings. Best of luck to everyone.
Jethro -- I personally think that experiencing a gamut of feelings -- including the ABSENCE of them -- is normal and to be expected. There are parts of our emotions that we shut down in order to deal with the A., there are parts of us that we shut down for self-preservation, and there are parts that we shut down (least for me) that just don't seem that **important** in the larger scheme of things anymore (these are mostly the "pick your battles" parts -- bad stuff, that is -- who gives a crap that H. doesn't replace the paper towels when ones mind is busy dealing with H's affair? I don't think I'll ever really care about the paper towels again!).
You mentioned a few posts back feeling scared -- and you were wondering about that given the recent positive steps forward in your sitch. I have experienced a lot of fear in my own sitch in the face of very positive and loving responses from my H. For me, it's a combination of a bunch of things -- feeling as though his responses are not "real" (just MORE of the same lies I suffered through during A), feeling as though now that he was BACK that I would have to address the feeling that I didn't KNOW how to fix MY role in the pre-A and OUR role in the A. and perhaps MOST terrifying, facing the fact that I had hit the top of my comfort level for intimacy....what I mean by this is, that while my M. was very troubled both before, during and after the A., I had a certain comfort zone of my own tolerance for trust and intimacy -- once things started settling out a bit, I realized that I was going to have to get into my "discomfort zone" and take a leap of trust, a leap into scary intimacy, etc.
Sometimes I'm still there. Sometimes, I'm back in my comfort zone by virtue of H. doing something that puts me back on the alert, and sometimes, I put myself back into my comfort zone thru my own anxieties and fears (sounds weird that anxiety and fear could put you into a "comfort" zone --- but, it can for me!)
I read something the other day that suggested that sometimes having things be miserable can be preferable to things being good because at least with the former, you know where things stand, while with the latter, things can "get worse".
There are days when I look at my H. and I am so filled with love it startles me. And there are days when I feel a self-preserving deadness of apathy. Sometimes it's on the same day!
Keep taking good care of yourself. I think that this is just a new phase of DB'ing for you.
Sage
Thanks so much for your insights LL, lizbeth, and Sage. This lack of feeling is a burden I don't particular want to have...
Quoting LL:
I was feeling then like he had felt before he left.
That's what I'm afraid of.
Quoting LL:
I don't think it is wrong or bad to be feeling the way you are..it sounds like a bit of detachment and there is nothing wrong with it...infact it may be your key to finding a happy healthy fullfilling r with your w.
At first I thought it was detachment, but I don't know. I kind of feel this way with my kids too.
I hate that!
Quoting LL:
is only when we take off those rose colored glasses that we used to view them from and see them for the regular people they are that we can begin to accept them and learn to appreciate them for them and not hoping they live up to the them that we hold in our hearts.
Maybe this is it. I have always kind of put my W on that pedestal because of how I've felt about her over the years. I feel like such a fool now. A fool that has had a brutal dose of reality.
Thanks much LL...
Quoting lizbeth:
We've worked so hard to get our spouses back and now they are, for the most part, and we wonder why we were fighting so hard, in a way.
I just don't feel the intensity of emotion right now.
Yup, lizbeth, have to agree. I've worked hard and I'm tired. I feel like riding it out a bit and letting my W really work. Well, in a way, she is...I see it every day, so I can't complain. But sometimes I feel so toasted...mentally, emotionally, and physically.
Quoting Sage:
There are parts of our emotions that we shut down in order to deal with the A., there are parts of us that we shut down for self-preservation, and there are parts that we shut down (least for me) that just don't seem that **important** in the larger scheme of things anymore
Yes, I completely agree with you. I really don't care about the small, petty stuff anymore. It's so meaningless. In terms of the gamut of feelings...yes, sometimes I'm attracted to my W and othertimes I'm repelled.
I've been a real treat to be around all weekend. My W kind of asks me what's wrong, but I tell her she doesn't want to know, so she shouldn't ask. She makes comments to me like, "Why the about-face? I thought things were going well." My response, "I don't think you realize the irrepairable damage you have done to our R. I'm trying to work through it. I've been feeling pretty good lately, but I can't every day. I'm human. So please don't say those things to me anymore."
Well, it got her attention and I don't think she'll be making those comments any longer. I was nice, but firm. And yes, I used the term, "irrepairable" because with some things it is. The trust will NEVER be totally repaired and my innocence/ignorance will NEVER be what it was. Our R will forevermore be slightly tainted and my thoughts about the human spirit slightly jaded.
Also, I haven't gotten an ILY since the big one last week, but that's okay. Hopefully, one will come along soon enough.
Thanks everyone...
jethro
Hey Jethro,
I keep having those feelings too, they come and go every couple of days. I just right it off as detachment for now and hope for the best.
W sticking around the other night speaks about how comfortable she got when you came home. Good! What else can I say?
Quote:
And yes, I used the term, "irrepairable" because with some things it is. The trust will NEVER be totally repaired and my innocence/ignorance will NEVER be what it was. Our R will forevermore be slightly tainted and my thoughts about the human spirit slightly jaded.
B-Jethro, the trust has to be repaired for you to get past this. That is what makes this so hard. And you have heard the phrase, "Never say never".
I dont think it will go away completely. But w/time the pain will dim, you wont think about it everyday, and you will trust her.
You have to trust her or it will not work. You wont be happy and then she in turn will become unhappy. Trust is that leap of faith that you just have to do - of course when you are ready.
I am sorry you are in such a bad place right now (((Jethro))). But I think you have on your jaded glasses right now. Give yourself time to heal and quit picking at the wound. Abby
Quoting jethro:
For me, last weekend was a bit rough, but with each successive day I'm feeling a bit better...not as moody.
Hi again,
I wanted to respond to this on your thread. And I caught up on your thread as well.
Wow. I can really relate to what you've been feeling lately. I get those feelings in waves too.
I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one!
I'm also glad to see that you are begining to feel better. Can you pinpoint what you did that contributed to the rise in your PMA?
For me, I looked in the mirror, saw my reflection looked pretty and realized that my outside didn't match up with my inside. And I liked feeling pretty better than I did feeling sad. Things started up from there. But they didn't get totally turned around until I had posted my post, had a positive response from KAW, and did an activity that I'd been looking forward to for a week.
I have to remind myself to focus on the solution, not the problem.
Hugs.
waaazup???
day by day....min by min...
inch by inch...that ant moved the rubber tree plant.
don't know why??? just the mood that struck me as I entered your thread.
LL
Hey Floyd, Abby, LL, and PNT.
Well, I really have nothing really new to report. I do feel a bit better, however, I kind of tried to tell myself that the emptiness will pass...and it pretty much has.
Last night my W and I were in bed and I said that I didn't really feel connected to her...but lately I had...just not the last couple of days. She said, "I feel pretty good." So, I guess that's a sign that it's me, huh? I think this empty feeling I've had has gotten the best of me and I need to really pull myself out of it. It also didn't help that my W was a bit pissy yesterday...one of those hairy kid days. She was okay with me, just a little frustrated in general...not very positive.
My W is in a singing competition tonight, of which I cannot attend (due to no babysitter). I really want to go--one, because I want to support her; and two, because I'm paranoid OM may show. The latter is unlikely, but possible. She's going with a couple of friends. The bar is located very close to OM too. I've expressed my concern to her and she's being understanding about it. I just feel extreme anxiety over her going (because, as I've said before, OM is part of Karaoke culture my W is involved with).
She gave me her word that nothing would happen, that she doesn't want to put herself in that position again, and asked what could she say to ease my mind. I said that there was really nothing she could say...that she has lied to me so much already, and we have to pretty much start over for me to trust her again. Her response was that she thinks "trust" is just something I need to decide to have...that time won't really make much difference. I said, "There are two kinds of trust. The first is a blanket trust that I have to have in order for our R to move forward. The other is the deeper trust that I'm having a hard time with. The only thing that will change that is for you to consistently show that you care about our R." She responded that what I said made sense and she understands. So, at least I got my point across.
I hate this crap...I guess I need to stop being a wimp and deal with it...
jethro
Jethro -- Your post reminded me of an article on trust from Yoga Journal. The link is:
Yoga Journal Article on Trust You might enjoy it since it seeks to distinguish among the different kinds of trust you articulated to your wife.
And, BTW, I don't think there's anything wimpy about the way you're handling your sitch...
Sage
Jethro, I would agree. I think your comments to your W were very clear and she showed she was listening to you. Those are things to work with. Good luck!
Quote:
I hate this crap...I guess I need to stop being a wimp and deal with it...
you are in no shape or form a wimp...a wimp would have given up all together and filed for d..a wimp would not face his feelings or fears or own up to them...a wimp would not put in the major effort needed to make a succesfull marriage...YOU are not a wimp!! (maybe my h is???)
oooeee jethro, I bet my H feels just like you.
You could ask her to call you every hour.
I wouldn't mind if my H asked me to do that.
I would like to be open about my ex-OM.
I mean, shining the light on the boogey man makes it hard for him to be sneaky.
I would suggest not being condescending.
Just state your fear as if it were scientific and ask (don't demand or tell) her to call you every hour. How hard would that be? Even give her change for the payphone.
When she calls, thank her for calling and wish her good luck.
I don't know, just my opinion.
Quoting jethro:
I do feel a bit better, however, I kind of tried to tell myself that the emptiness will pass...and it pretty much has.
Your getting the hang of it...
Most of the time the thing to do is to do ... NOTHING. Just ride it out for a while and most times it will pass. The time to concern yourself with it is when it shapes up into a continuing pattern, then its time to make a change.
Time has been flowing well for you lately and the momentum is still drawing you closer together, so there's no reason to stir the pot sorta speak.
In time, your R will develop to the point where OM will be only a footnote in her book and then it will not be an issue if he shows up in her presence. At that point you will need to let it go entirely, then any coincidental contact will have no effect at all on her.
'til later,
KAW
Thanks much everyone. Been very busy at work, so getting to the boards is difficult these days.
Quoting Sage:
Your post reminded me of an article on trust from Yoga Journal.
Thanks very much, Sage. I only got an opportunity to read part of it, but I definitely plan on reading the whole article. Gotta love the Yoga stuff.
Quoting lizbeth:
I think your comments to your W were very clear and she showed she was listening to you.
Thanks, lizbeth. Yeah, she does seem to be really listening these days... Today I mentioned that I felt we were doing okay, but the last week or so I've felt like we've drifted a bit. I mentioned that I thought we needed more time together. She agreed. Jeez...when one's WAS agrees to spend more time with you, something's gotta be working.
Quoting LL:
you are in no shape or form a wimp
Thanks, LL.
Quoting charcoal:
You could ask her to call you every hour.
I wouldn't mind if my H asked me to do that.
I would like to be open about my ex-OM.
I mean, shining the light on the boogey man makes it hard for him to be sneaky.
I would suggest not being condescending.
Nice of you to stop by, Charcoal. Well, let me see... My W actually does call me just to check in on me and, obviously enough, to let me know she's not fooling around. She did this last night and I thanked her. In terms of being open about OM. Well, she's done that too. But you know what, sometimes I would rather not hear about OM and not put a face or personality to him. I prefer him to be a spectre...not a real human. To do this, it's better that I get little information about him. I like to think of him as inconsequential... Does that make sense?
Quoting KAW:
Most of the time the thing to do is to do ... NOTHING. Just ride it out for a while and most times it will pass.
Yes, I've kind of gathered that. It does freak me out, though. Problem is, when I feel this way, I get upset, kind of go back to the old Jethro. Then...the old habits/patterns start coming up. I'm doing my best to try and avoid that. And, at least now I recognize them! I mentioned it to my W today that last weekend I was in a funk, and, as a result, some of the old habits come up. She said she noticed and it makes her wonder if I really am going to stay with these changes. I said I am. She said that it's only natural she feel that way because who I am is someone new and she's not used to me being that way yet... I guess she's still on guard... Interesting...
In any case, thanks to everyone. I VERY much appreciate the support.
jethro
Quoting jethro:
Problem is, when I feel this way, I get upset, kind of go back to the old Jethro. Then...the old habits/patterns start coming up. I'm doing my best to try and avoid that. And, at least now I recognize them! I mentioned it to my W today that last weekend I was in a funk, and, as a result, some of the old habits come up. She said she noticed and it makes her wonder if I really am going to stay with these changes. I said I am. She said that it's only natural she feel that way because who I am is someone new and she's not used to me being that way yet... I guess she's still on guard... Interesting...
jethro
The feeling as though I've regressed to old patterns when upset is the hardest part for me....I try to cut myself some slack when it happens, though, partly because I AM trying hard and partly because beating myself up for a slipup never helps.
I AM noticing, though, that it takes me longer to get into bad habits than before AND I snap out of them more quickly. Same seems to be true for H.
Finally, all this DB'ing has made me better at the "I'm standing back and watching myself do 'more of the same'...what can I learn from this for next time?"
Sage
Jethro,
I don't know if this is true for you, but for me, recognizing that what I'm doing is a BAD habit...is a big thing. Before this past year, I thought what I was doing was the way I was supposed to do it.
In times of stress, everyone is bound to slip back into a pattern that they are comfortable with. It helps us deal with the stress.
The fact that you recognize what you are doing and also recognize that it's not constructive is wonderful!
You are on the right path!
Hugs.
Dear Jethro,
Despite the ups and downs, you are definitely making strides - it's so nice to see.
Happy Valentine's Day, Jethro! I hope you two can enjoy some wonderful time together, as you continue to rediscover your love.
rjj
hey Jethro...
I totally hear you on NOT wanting to hear about the OM. I don't want to talk to my H about mine (ex-OM) either. It is my goal, when i'm wishing for OM, to seek H instead. Hopefully, after I do this for awhile, OM will only be a spectre, a distant memory, you know?
take care
jethro, hope you had a good night. lisa
Hi Jethro.
I saw you online and wanted to stop in and let you know I was thinking about you. I have been distancing myself a bit from the bb lately. Only dropping in real quick to make a couple of updates on my sitch.
God slapped me on the wrist last week and let me know if I wanted Him to be in control of my sitch then I needed to stop taking it back and let Him have it all. So I gave it back to him again on V-day.
Take care.
No updates Jethro?
How was V-day? How was your weekend?
Hey guys and gals. I know it's been a few days. Been thinking about everyone, but I've also been very busy...with work and honey-dos. I appreciate everyone coming by and feel I'm getting behind owing some visits to a few people...most especially Sage, Charcoal, and FIP.
Had some interesting things happen the last couple of days. First I will begin with Valentine's Day...as it was good and bad. W and I had a spat.
So, I got up early in the morning and made some bacon and egg breakfast burritos, a little coffee, and took it up to my W in bed. She appreciated it. Went off to work, then came home for our night out. We couldn't get a reservation anywhere and tried to get into a couple places for dinner to no avail. So, we ended up going to Mr. Kimchee's...a Korean not-guite-fast-food place. It was really good. While in there we heard our song. We were jabbering along with conversation, then all of a sudden there it was on the radio. We both stopped for a moment and took it in. It was very nice.
Then...off to the movies...saw Chicago. I liked and W didn't too much. This is funny because W likes the theater. So, after the movie we went home and Jethro was expecting a little love...you know. Well, W wasn't into it and it really bummed me out. I got a little annoyed, then she did. Well, when it came down to it, she was very happy and felt close to me with our evening and didn't feel like we needed to have sex. Me, on the other hand, feel as though it's the "right" way to show how much one loves someone else. It was an unfortunate end to a very nice evening, but I think we both ended up understanding each other...and really, I should have just let it go. I will next time.
Last night was far more "interesting." My W and I were up late talking and you know whating...then I feel asleep for a little bit before she woke me up. She said, "Honey...I don't feel right...I feel dizzy," then goes into the bathroom. It was weird. She was really nervous, shaky, jittery, cold, etc. Well, it was an anxiety attack. All of this crap is really finally catching up to her. She doesn't think that it's there from just the A. She thinks she's been bottling her feelings for so long that she just can't do it anymore. I agreed because I feel the A was kind of a result of her bottling her feelings.
In any case, it took quite a while for her to calm down. She didn't want to talk about it at all because it made her feel even worse. She just wanted me to try and distract her with babble. So, Jethro was babbling about this and that until about 2:30 this morning. Poor W.
I was going to go to work this morning, but she wanted me to stay home in case she had another episode. She's real worried. She's felt borderline today. She got on the Internet and determined that it definitely was an anxiety attack. I, of course, mentioned this last night because of my experiences with reading about others on the BB. I know the signs. So, Jethro stayed home from work and was at W's side all day long. She was very affectionate, hugging, etc. It was nice, but I'm worried about her. She doesn't really want to do the meds because she wants to deal with this on her own. I simply told her that many people have used meds and there's no shame. We'll see.
So, I ran a bath for her and she's there right this moment. I expect her to call me soon to go to bed. I told her I'd give her a rub until she fell asleep. She's very worried about another episode tonight.
So, you guys, who has some experience with these things and what can one do to help? I'd love some advice.
Thanks all. I'm going to try and pop in on a few threads tonight, as I had only so much time last night...
jethro
Oh, forget to include what W put on my V-day card:
"We've both been through a lot this year but I'm certain that with love and determination we will overcome it all and come out stronger. I love you. W."
Not bad I think...
Of course, I start to wonder if she means "we'll" come out stronger together or apart.
Sorry...negative Jethro coming through...
jethro
Jethro,
I'm sorry your wife is experiencing panic attacks. I know how scary they can be. I've had one before. I've heard either through people or through the abnormal psych class that the worst thing about these attacks is that the person begins to fear that they will have another one. Then they stop going outside the home and if that continues long enough they start actually fearing going outside.
I've heard the best thing to do is to allow the panic attack to happen, breathe through it, and let it run it's course. That if you try to fight it, it just gets worse and lasts longer and happens more frequently.
Perhaps she could DB her panic attacks? Figure out what makes them shorter, less intense?
Maybe call a DB coach on this one to get some techniques?
I dunno.
Just throwing stuff out there!
Hugs to you both.
Hey Jethro!
Just a comment about the anxiety attack... i've had them, still have them, they don't necessarily *scare* me though... I think it's just my brain's way of telling me there's something *not right* inside of it. The way I work on that, or fix it, is to think positive.
Just the other day, I was having a little attack as a result of my missing ex-OM. I was all messed up and feeling pretty desparate. Anyway, I left work in my car, went to this little place I park to think, I got out my journal and wrote self-affirming things down like:
"I need to live up to my own expectations and stop expecting instant gratification."
"Poetry is a place that brings me down. A place where I actively seek desparate things."
"The positive projection is that H IS the man I CHOSE to live my life with. If H wasn't good enough, I wouldn't have made that choice in the first place."
"It is time to smile. It is time to set MYSELF free."
...Once I'd finished writing that, I could breathe, I could smile and the thought "Physician Heal Thyself" occured to me. So, your W may not need meds at all... she might just benefit from a little positive introspection.
(prior to all the trouble with my R, I NEVER had anything like that happen, I was a total *type B* personality. when the probs really started getting bad... about 2 years ago, i've had to deal with the occasional attack... it's okay, really... I just have to listen to what the attacks are saying)
Your W kinda sounds like me a little bit in terms of sex. But, I've certainly read about and can appreciate your side of it. H believes if we do NOT have sex it is SAD ~ and to me, that's a shame. What's the point of getting sad? I need to try to understand that more... and become more giving.
Gotta add that to my list of "Goals"
ooops, gotta make that list.
Quoting jethro:
... She said, "Honey...I don't feel right...I feel dizzy," then goes into the bathroom. It was weird. She was really nervous, shaky, jittery, cold, etc. Well, it was an anxiety attack. All of this crap is really finally catching up to her. She doesn't think that it's there from just the A. She thinks she's been bottling her feelings for so long that she just can't do it anymore. I agreed because I feel the A was kind of a result of her bottling her feelings...She doesn't really want to do the meds because she wants to deal with this on her own. I simply told her that many people have used meds and there's no shame. We'll see.
How PnT describes the panic attacks and the advise she gave is right on the money. In fact, my W has been caught up in the catch-22 of fearing another attack actually is what triggers some of them. Other times she wakes up in the middle of the night having one. PnT is also right in that by having her focus on her breathing rather than trying to resist will allow the attack to pass quicker. Being supportive and coaching her through it
(that reminding her to breath and that it will pass & all will be alright.) will also reduce the duration of the attack.
I hope for your W they won't presist. If they do, meds probably won't be a cut and dry solution as it is a long trial & error process of finding the right medication and dosage and in time the attacks can come back.
Since your W feels that the source could be her bottled up feeling, I would suggest talking to a C would do more good than the meds right now. This could lead to joint C and if you feel you may not need it, be supportive and do it for her
(one of my biggest mistakes) and I'm sure that you will find some of what is said very insightful and will help bring you closer together.
Unfortunately for us, my W has closed the door to having more C sessions and felt up to now, a pill will cure the attacks, but after this weekend she has reallized it hasn't work up to now. While she still doesn't want to start up C just yet, she is open to reading some books I heard are suppose to be very good on the subject. I plan on getting them this week.
'til later,
KAW
Hi Jethro,
So nice to hear things keep going well, despite the occasional bump in the road. I quite enjoyed Chicago too (of course I was watching the scenery very carefully
)
I have had experience (and success) in my work, treating people with moderate to severe anxiety disorders, using a behavioural approach (with no meds). I have found first of all, that if the person can learn about the condition, this lessens the anxiety already. Anxiety feeds off itself, and if the person fears that they will lose control in public, or even die (which often happens in more severe cases), this in itself can provoke an attack. To be reassured that you will be fine, and most likely you are the only person to notice the signs, can bring about some relief. There is an excellent resource called the anxiety and phobia workbook (can't remember the author offhand) which your W may find helpful.
I don't know if this will be of help to you and your W, but I have helped people by having them identify the sources of their anxiety, and list these. Your W's may be more generalized anxiety, but examples from people I have worked with were often specific situations such as crowds, loud noises, heights, etc. Then I lead them through relaxation exercises, followed by systematic desensitization to the anxiety provoking stimuli, initially just imagined, then very gradually, for real.
It works, but it can take a long time. Of course the people I have worked with have been experiencing debilitating anxiety for a long time, to the point where it limits their activities outside of home.
If your wife can identify what triggers these feelings in her, and find a way to relax in the face of them, her anxiety won't likely evolve to this point. Maybe she could benefit from yoga too??? Or meditation, or even just progressive deep muscle relaxation (you can buy tapes to guide this). I have tried to describe a very detailed process in a paragraph or two here, but if I can be of any more help, please don't hesitate to let me know.
I know she must have been tremendously comforted by you staying with her and helping her through this recent attack - it can be very scary. I have had some mini-attacks myself, mine are actually triggered by a minor heart condition which causes my heart to race suddenly, but with my background knowledge, I was able to sit back and say "isn't this interesting?" instead of being convinced I was having a heart attack. Your ongoing support will be so valuable to her as she learns to cope with this, and overcome it.
take care, Jethro
rjj
WOW! Thanks everyone very much for the thorough responses. I will definitely pass on your responses to her.
PNT, she pretty much handled her situation the way you suggested the other night. Instinctively she seemed to know to try and relax and breathe carefully. She sat on the floor for some time with her head between her legs.
Charcoal, like you, my W has a jounal that she writes in quite frequently. I can tell when she gets stressed because she goes back to the journal. At this point, I kind of take it as a sign to back off.
Quoting KAW:
Since your W feels that the source could be her bottled up feeling, I would suggest talking to a C would do more good than the meds right now. This could lead to joint C and if you feel you may not need it, be supportive and do it for her (one of my biggest mistakes) and I'm sure that you will find some of what is said very insightful and will help bring you closer together.
I suggested the C the other night, KAW, but I don't know that she really thought too much about it. It likely wasn't the best time to bring it up and all she wanted me to do was just ramble on about this and that to try and get her mind off of things. Hard to do at 2:00 AM. I will again approach the C question and see how she feels. During her year of belligerence she went to C, but I don't think it did any good. I think that now she's somewhat gun-shy.
Seeing RJJ in action! Had no idea. I appreciate your insights, RJJ, and sent you an e-mail with a question.
Thanks again everyone!
jethro
Quoting jethro:
Charcoal, like you, my W has a jounal that she writes in quite frequently. I can tell when she gets stressed because she goes back to the journal. At this point, I kind of take it as a sign to back off.
...I went out last Sunday to a Diner, took my journals, took my DB and my "He's Scared, She's Scared" books - I actually have two journals, one's for poetry, the other is for the R stuff. I sat down and wrote a poem ~ a dreadfully negative thing.... then I focused on my DB book, and my entry in the R journal was much more positive. I showed H my entry... which I'll post in my "H is Driving WAW Crazy" thread...
...Anyway, I like being able to show H some of the things I'm thinking... but still, H backing off and letting me work on me is crucial at this point in our R....
Hi J
You are getting great advice and I really dont know much about this subject. I do think you need to do research to be prepared for her struggles and support her. I think C will help her get all that is bottled up out in the open. Maybe you can sell that C may help her avoid the meds.
2x4 time quit the negative thoughts behind her positive moves. The card was from the heart. Dont second guess her. You really are doing good. Abby
Jethro,
You are getting great advice about the anxiety thing. I just want to let you know that I am another one that has had to deal with it.
When we got married (I was 20, W was 19) and had our first child, I got very stressed out about the responsibility and wasnt handeling it well at all. I started having the anxiety attacks. Then just like everyone else has mentioned, it fed off of itself. My main fear finally was that I was going to have an anxiety attack in public and either pass out, or make a scene. I was deathly affraid of it and it controlled my life. I couldnt go to the movies, go out to eat, or go anywhere that I might embarass me or my family by having an attack. It is a horrible feeling.
I tried meds, but like RJJ said, it took a long time to figure out what worked and what didnt. In the meantime I was getting info from my MIL about the subject and started using some techniques similar to what everyone else has mentioned. I think that it actually helped more than the meds. The thing the meds did was help me to relax. Knowing that I wouldnt have attacks in public. I could have been given sugar pills and it probably would have done the same thing. It was my mind.
I do have a history of anxiety/depression that runs in my family though, and some people believe that it can be a chemical imbalance that causes it. I am not real sure, but I think it is a possibility that could be part of it. Might think about that with your W too, if she has a history of it in her family. Just a thought.
I know exactly how you feel about the sex thing. I often felt let down after a very romantic evening. I guess it is because physical affection is my love language. Not sure if I can be of any help with this subject. I just try to put it on the back burner for now in my sitch. Its very hard to deal with though.
Oh, BTW, along with telling W that it will be ok and reassuring her of that, also let her know that you are there for her. That anytime she needs to talk or be distracted, that you are there to help her through it. Its a comfort thing and it helps a ton. I was only comfortable around my W at that time, and it helped to know she was around for me.
Quote:
You know, I do the exact same thing. If I don't get some sort of physical attention from my W, then I feel distant from her. And, after sex, I usually feel pretty good about things. (why is it that I'm talking about sex so much lately on my posts?) It does seem like your H is trying a little harder in this department?
I wonder sometimes if I am in the wrong skin...men seem to need the physical contact to feel close...and that is the way I feel...women seem to need the emotional connection to feel close and feel it spoiled when it leads to physical contact that is sexual...me when the emotional doesn't lead to physical I tend to feel a bit resentful...and start to wonder who's who in this r...
perhaps even though our r's are not sex starved (though sometimes I feel it is) we should read michelles new book..she even sent me an autographed copy!!
I just don't feel like being the one to do all the re-search and work while h just takes it one day at a time and does what comes naturally. (or doesn't for that matter
)
LL
Charcoal, Abby, and Floyd, thanks for coming by and paying a visit.
Quoting Floyd:
I do have a history of anxiety/depression that runs in my family though, and some people believe that it can be a chemical imbalance that causes it. I am not real sure, but I think it is a possibility that could be part of it. Might think about that with your W too, if she has a history of it in her family. Just a thought.
Well, I don't think there's any history. I simply think that it's a result of her stress over this entire mess. It's been building up for a long time now and needs an exit. I just have to try and help her through it. She hasn't really had an episode since that one night...although the following day there were a few close calls. Yesterday was good. She also seems pretty good herself...chipper and such. I just hope she's dealing with the demons and not pushing them further away. My W loves "fun" distractions.
Quoting LL:
I wonder sometimes if I am in the wrong skin...men seem to need the physical contact to feel close...and that is the way I feel...women seem to need the emotional connection to feel close and feel it spoiled when it leads to physical contact that is sexual...me when the emotional doesn't lead to physical I tend to feel a bit resentful...and start to wonder who's who in this r...
perhaps even though our r's are not sex starved (though sometimes I feel it is) we should read michelles new book.
Have you always felt this way...or just since the problems really cropped up with you two? I think for us, LL, is that we have been last on the list of getting attention from our Ses for so long that we long for any kind of connection, physical or otherwise. I imagine that over time, as things continue to move in a postive direction, that your H will become more physically attentive to your needs while simultaneously, you won't "need" it as much anymore. This is kind of what's happening with me right now.
In terms of the Sex Starved Marriage, I don't know that it really fits my sitch. I have a thriving libido, so I have to keep it under control so as to not tick my W off. I have to say, she's pretty good about that kind of thing, so I have to balance my needs with hers. She does let me "win" pretty often, though.
Lately, I haven't felt these "needs" so much, and I think it's because she's meeting my needs in other ways. Again, LL, I simply think that over time, as your H meets your other needs, this will diminish.
Nothing much going on lately. Just some normal Jethro days that most of us long for so much. The mundane doesn't seem quite so mundane anymore, does it?
Thanks everyone.
jethro
Yo j, I hope that your lack of posting means all is going well.
Jim
Hey Jim and RJJ. Glad you stopped by. And yes, I'd have to say things seem to be improving little by little each day. Also, work has been very busy, so I haven't been able to get on the boards too easily.
However, I did have it rough on Saturday. Felt awful...was thinking about the A way too much. I ended up having an R talk with the W about it. Seems she's either listening to what I'm saying these days or reading DR because all of her responses sound like mine. A few snippets follow:
J: "I sometimes don't know if I can do this."
W: "Well, I understand how you would feel that way and there's really nothing I can say to change how you feel."
---
J: "Why is it that you don't seem to express so much remorse over what you did? Why is it that you seem hardened and not wanting to talk about the A? You have this "move on" attitude as though you don't think it was all that significant and I should just move on with you."
W: "Well, I've bottled up my feelings for a long time...and have a tough exterior because of it. However, I don't think I can do this anymore, as I had the anxiety attack the other night. I show the pain of my actions in different ways. Just because they're not they ways you expect to see doesn't mean they don't exist."
(see what I mean?)
---
W: "The last few days I've been feeling really good."
---
W: "I saw a cute, old couple the other day waddling out to their car in a parking lot and it made me think about how we will be together when we're that age." (so, this is a good sign
)
Tonight was a bit odd, as out of the blue she hit me with the "If we didn't have kids would you be here" question. I answered her pretty honestly even though it was hard. I simply said, "Probably not. You have done a lot of damage to our R, and as a result, I've lost some of my love for you. You're going to have to work to get that love back. I will say that I'm feeling better...that you're working on things, so it's really a hard question to answer." I went on to tell her I thought our R hadn't been this good in years, regardless of her indescretions, and she agreed.
So, there was quite a bit more, but I won't bore you guys with that stuff. All in all, things are moving well, but I have my moments of pain. Even today when my W was in a mood, I simply thought that if she asked me for a D today, I'd probably just go along with it without much of a fight. Detachment? I don't know, but I'm just tired and want my W to express her undying love for me so I can feel we're officially D-Busted...
jethro
Quoting jethro:
I don't know, but I'm just tired and want my W to express her undying love for me so I can feel we're officially D-Busted...
Jet, I know what you mean ... I'm still waiting, too.
Actually, I'm beginning to believe that unconsciously we are anticipating some grand gesture from our S that will give us closure to our nightmare and that this expectation will go unfilled because the closure needs to come from within. Also, DBing is an ongoing process for as long as you want a better, happier M. To that end, there should will never be any closure to DBing and in that I find myself caught of a Catch-22, in that my conscious effort to continue the positive is a constant reminder of how and why I got here in the first place. Sorry, I'm in a bit of a rough patch as it was one year ago this week that she annouced "A" & "D" in the same night.
This past weekend, my W made a rare reference to last year. I just received a cell phone and as we were getting ready to go out shopping, I grabbed it. She asked, why I was taking it. I answered, in case we get seperated, we could call each other. She retorted, "We won't get seperated. I thought that is what you fought so hard for last year?" with a smirk.
I just stood there dumbfounded for what seem like forever. I just didn't have a response for that, eventually we gave each other a hug. Also, this week, she gave me an "ILY" and followed it with "I don't say that as often as I should.", but it didn't seem to help much on a emotional level, but an intellectual level, it is comforting to know the effort is being made.
Ooops, sorry to ramble on your thread, but you have made remarkable process in such a short period of time. That's something to hang your hat on.
'til later,
KAW
Hey KAW.
Quote:
I'm in a bit of a rough patch as it was one year ago this week that she annouced "A" & "D" in the same night.
Sorry you're hitting a rough patch.
Quote:
Ooops, sorry to ramble on your thread, but you have made remarkable process in such a short period of time.
Don't apologize for rambling. I enjoy the insights from reading the parallels in other sitches. Are we forever going to remain overly conscious about what "might" happen again in our situations? Will this "pressure" to DB ever diminish you think? I'm simply hoping it will become second nature and that I won't directly focus on it so much anymore.
In terms of making progress in a short amount of time, I don't really think I have. I mean, in terms of when I started DBing I've made relatively quick progress; however, I've been at it since 10/01. And like I said, I'm just tired. I feel like coasting a little and letting my W pick up the slack a bit. However, I've always felt like I've carried our R a bit more than her. For many years I've felt this...giving and giving...and not receiving so much in return. My thanks for doing this was her having an A. It might be negative, KAW, but like I said, I'm just tired...
jethro
Quote:
I'm simply hoping it will become second nature and that I won't directly focus on it so much anymore.
Boy do I hope so. I dont want the fears of things not working to be lingering around forever.
How did your W respond to your honest answer about still being there if it wasnt for the kids?
Hey Jethro, thanks for the post my friend... I appreciate it...
If you would be so kind, go hit Mat's thread... He is in hopefulness, I think you will find it interesting...
Quoting jethro:
Are we forever going to remain overly conscious about what "might" happen again in our situations? Will this "pressure" to DB ever diminish you think? I'm simply hoping it will become second nature and that I won't directly focus on it so much anymore.
Well I don't have the answers myself as of yet, but in order to avoid falling back into patterns of what doesn't work, we have to maintain a higher level of awareness and yet be at ease with it. It seems to be a delicate balance we need to find. Can this become second nature? It would be nice, but something tells me it won't become quite that easy.
Quoting jethro:
... but like I said, I'm just tired...
I hear ya ... this is why it becomes important to put the focus on the awareness of what can you do to make today a better day? Remember the answer does not always have to relate to M or R, but maybe just about Jethro?
It might be as simple as maybe sleeping in one morning or taking a solo drive. Remember to keep doing things for yourself in order to recharge your PMA.
(Now to follow my own advise!!)
'til later,
KAW
Hey guys.
Quoting Floyd:
How did your W respond to your honest answer about still being there if it wasnt for the kids?
She actually didn't say anything much. My DD was nearby, so we had to be careful about what we were saying. She simply said, "That's what I thought." She wouldn't give anything more than that...was kind of quiet about the whole thing...even though she asked the question. I asked her why she asked and didn't get a response. I think she might be testing how I'm feeling about her in general. I believe she wants to know that I still love her. I'm hoping this is because she is feeling more love for me these days and wants it reciprocated...
Quoting Will:
Hey Jethro, thanks for the post my friend... I appreciate it...
If you would be so kind, go hit Mat's thread... He is in hopefulness, I think you will find it interesting...
No prob on the post, Will. I reviewed Mat's thread and found it quite interesting...
Quoting KAW:
Well I don't have the answers myself as of yet, but in order to avoid falling back into patterns of what doesn't work, we have to maintain a higher level of awareness and yet be at ease with it. It seems to be a delicate balance we need to find. Can this become second nature? It would be nice, but something tells me it won't become quite that easy.
I suppose you're right, KAW. Marriage is work and there's no way around it. I guess the work is just easier when one's spouse is also working on it.
Also, maybe you're right about recharging my PMA. It hasn't been too good lately. I think I need some good Jethro time.
jethro
Hi Jethro,
Sorry you are hitting a rough patch. Do you really feel you love her less b/c of the A or is it that you have lost some trust and security that is attached to the love?
I understand you feeling tired. Take a break. Everyone needs a break - that is why most employeers give vacations. You come back refreshed w/new perspectives. Taking a break doesnt mean being the old you. It just means you arent focusing on the R and the M for a while.
Your W is still there and is working too. Huge plus. Everything takes time. It took you time to get in the mess and it will take time to work your way out of it. Patience.
Abby
Hiya Jethro,
I have a sneaking suspicion that DBing is a way of life. I can imagine, in the future, if I'm feeling insecure and I ask my husband how he's feeling, that even if he's feeling good, he'll feel pressure from my question.
We've all seen that relationships take constant effort. Some more so than others. But I've come to the conclusion that I need to make sure that I treat my family better than I treat strangers. And as difficult as it is for me, that includes staying respectful and treating them with curtesy. Because I've noticed that strangers ultimately won't care how I feel, but my family will harbor hurt feelings and resentments if I have an off day. Does this make sense?
I suspect, for me...that on the days that I feel insecure with my relationships, that the best thing I can do is to journal it and act as if with my friend.
I'd like to believe that the relationships that I value will get to the point where they are sailing along without any hard work...but I'm afraid that attitude is why I'm here now.
Wow, I hope that doesn't bring you down...
Hugs.
Thanks Abby and PNT. Well, I was rather blunt last night with my W. My conversation with her fits in fairly well with your comments/questions...
Quoting Abby:
Sorry you are hitting a rough patch. Do you really feel you love her less b/c of the A or is it that you have lost some trust and security that is attached to the love?
Abby, yes, I think I do love her less, and she has to earn it back. I've worked very hard for about 1.5 years (not as long as some). Maybe, because of ignorance, I wasn't working on the "right" things, but nonetheless, the effort was there. That's why I'm tired. Tired of worrying about what she's thinking. Tired about having to "act as if" all the time...even when I'm feeling like crap. Tired of feeling guarded and not "saying too much." Tired of psychoanalyzing every aspect of our conversations.
Quoting Abby:
Taking a break doesnt mean being the old you. It just means you arent focusing on the R and the M for a while.
Your W is still there and is working too. Huge plus. Everything takes time. It took you time to get in the mess and it will take time to work your way out of it. Patience.
I agree, Abby, and I know I have to have patience. Thing is, I've been on this road for a while...
Quoting PNT:
I have a sneaking suspicion that DBing is a way of life. I can imagine, in the future, if I'm feeling insecure and I ask my husband how he's feeling, that even if he's feeling good, he'll feel pressure from my question.
PNT, I agree that DBing is a way of life; however, when we've gone though this junk it is simply understandable that we would be insecure when our Ses come back. Heck, they are! I think, over time, the insecurity will diminish, but nonetheless, when making a fresh start after going through all of this junk, I think it's reasonable to expect some reassurances.
This is a good segway to my next post... Thanks ladies!
jethro
My previous post leads me quite well into the conversation I had last night with the W...
So, my W and I were working on a puzzle together last night and listening to some music. It was nice, not much conversation, but we were doing something together. However, I was not feeling quite right, per my posts. I decided to go out on a limb and came right out and said, "I'm not feeling very secure right now, and feel sad." Well, I kind of surprised my W with the comment, but she was cool.
I told her that I didn't really know how she felt because she doesn't really tell me much and that I need some reassurances if things are fine (you know verbal love language stuff). Got into the fact that I don't hear ILYs, but that she dishes that out to everyone else.
It took her some time to actually get the information out of me because I was trying to be very careful about what I was saying. She had numerous things to say. She said:
- "I'm confused because you say on the one hand that you need reassurances from me about our R, but you also say that you're not sure you'll be able to get through this." (I said I have both feelings, but that I am thinking less and less about the A)
- "Sometimes you seem to want to talk about things, then you say we shouldn't." (My response was that there was a time that I didn't think she could hear what I had to say)
(*note to self: Jethro's been sending mixed, confusing signals to W)
- "Much of what it says in your books about these wives having a wall up is similar to our situation, and that it's very likely I have had those "in love" feelings for you, but just forgot." (if you remember, she claimed she never really loved me...another WAW trait)
- "I do love you."
- "I'm happy where I am right now."
- "Things are getting better."
One thing I realized last night was that my W is now at a point where she can talk about this stuff. Up until last night I didn't really think so, but now I'm fairly comfortable with it. I do think she'd get weird on me if I dug into the A too much, but simply talking about the aftermath of the A and working on our R she's pretty open about.
Is this good DBing? Probably not. I don't like showing that I'm insecure. Naturally, self confidence is more attractive; however, I don't think it's unreasonable to express these feelings if I'm having them...just as long as it's not all of the time. What do you guys think? Did I go a bit overboard? I'm just tired of the "not saying and showing" stuff and wanted to be blunt.
jethro
Quoting jethro:
Is this good DBing? Probably not. I don't like showing that I'm insecure. Naturally, self confidence is more attractive; however, I don't think it's unreasonable to express these feelings if I'm having them...just as long as it's not all of the time.
Opening up the lines of communication that bring you closer together is
not good DBing? O' contraire!
Seriously, J, I know you have gotten plenty of forewarning about the pressures of OR talks
(myself included) , but you seem to have striked upon the right formula of when & how much ... and it has worked for you!! So long as it works, keep doing it. In this regards, I believe you have surpassed me. When my W senses my insecurities, it seems to trigger hers which is not good.
Its about keeping the positive changes going. Talking to each other about how you feel works for you to keep that momentum going. It has allowed her to see you are working through your issues and for you to see that she is doing the same. That in of itself has to be a reassurance?
'til later,
KAW
I have thought about this all day and I have something thoughts I want to share w/you.
Quote:
she has to earn it back.
What is it exactly that she is going to do to earn your love back? To me you cant quantify love. Is your love w/her unconditional or conditional? To show you your W's point of view, she may feel that she cant do enough to make up for the past.
This really isnt about her earning your love but more about you leaving the past in the past and forgiving her.
You have to let it go. If you dont she isnt going to keep trying b/c what would the point be? She can never do right.
Quote:
Tired of worrying about what she's thinking. Tired about having to "act as if" all the time...even when I'm feeling like crap. Tired of feeling guarded and not "saying too much." Tired of psychoanalyzing every aspect of our conversations
I kind of getting the feeling you are tired of having to carry more than your fair share of the R work. You know most R's are not fair. You may always do 60% of the R work. What you need to put out there is what you want from your R. What is it that you want her to do for you in the R?
I am sure she is thinking what more can I do to show him that I am here to stay. I have called the OM and told him No More. I have told him I want to be here and work on the M. I am still here. She is probably afraid to put too much on the line if you are going to say it is not enough for you. In the end you both end up feeling tired, angry and frustrated.
I dont mean to come down hard on you. I do want you to look inside and be honest.
Jethro!
I think you did great.
From your wife's point of view, you were sending mixed signals. As we all know..that's disorienting and confusing and feels like limbo. I bet she doesn't like feeling that way, anymore than the rest of us!
From what I read, your talk really clarified things for both of you and helped her feel more secure.
But I think the others are right too...you now have some guidelines about when and how much of an OR talk to have.
Woot!
Hugs.
Quoting KAW:
Seriously, J, I know you have gotten plenty of forewarning about the pressures of OR talks (myself included) , but you seem to have striked upon the right formula of when & how much ... and it has worked for you!! So long as it works, keep doing it.
Yeah, I suppose. You know how after being guarded for so long it's difficult to kind of let go and trust having a decent OR conversation again? I guess I should just keep doing what I'm doing in that regard as it doesn't seem to be a burden for my W.
Quoting Abby:
What is it exactly that she is going to do to earn your love back? To me you cant quantify love. Is your love w/her unconditional or conditional?
This really isnt about her earning your love but more about you leaving the past in the past and forgiving her.
Abby, I HAVE lost some love for her. And, in a way, it is measurable. You read "Love Languages" right? I have received very few "love" credits over the years...very few. I've given so much (more than 60%) to this R for many years. Her response to that was to pay me back by having an A. This removed yet more of those credits I've received few of. I don't have these huge expectations, but I do have some expectations. I'm tired of putting all of the effort into having a mediocre R...and this is something that will have to change. I need to see "real" effort from her. I'm getting a little of this, but not enough. I'm still covering well over my appointed 50%.
Quoting Abby:
She is probably afraid to put too much on the line if you are going to say it is not enough for you.
I'm afraid too, Abby. But frankly, she needs to really go out on a limb if she wants to fix this thing. Also, I don't tell her that what she's doing is not enough. I don't complain to her about what I vent about here. I do tell her, however, that it would be nice if I had more of this or that. Sometimes she complies. Problem is, there just doesn't seem to be too much of a drive to do certain things for me that would really make me happy. She's trying...but it's not enough for this R to last. I'm simply hoping that over time it will get better...so far it has...
If I see that she's really nurturing our R, I know I can forgive. Thanks for being candid, Abby. I appreciate it. You can always do that with me.
Quoting PNT:
From your wife's point of view, you were sending mixed signals. As we all know..that's disorienting and confusing and feels like limbo. I bet she doesn't like feeling that way, anymore than the rest of us!
Yes, it kind of opened my eyes to the confusion I was likely propagating. Now I know I can really ask for what I feel I need and I think she'll listen attentively. Whether she does anything about it, well...that's another story...
Thanks everyone.
jethro
jetro,
been trying to keep up with you...but lately haven't had any words for you because I have been in my own mood..
stepping out of it a bit..
I understand all your feelings..that you know..but something keeps comming up for you that is going to be tough..
you cannot wait for w to start doing what ever it is you want her to do to show you she's commited to forgive her..because she may just be waiting for you to forgive her to start doing those things...don't fall into the why should I be the one to change bit.
allow yourself to forgive her...she will then have to forgive herself...
I hope I make some sense.
off to make lunch but I'll be back to check in again.
LL
Hey LL.
Quote:
been trying to keep up with you...but lately haven't had any words for you because I have been in my own mood.
I know...
It's okay. Sometimes I wonder if I just sound like I'm complaining or something because I know to everyone my sitch is so hopeful...
Quote:
you cannot wait for w to start doing what ever it is you want her to do to show you she's commited to forgive her..because she may just be waiting for you to forgive her to start doing those things...don't fall into the why should I be the one to change bit.
allow yourself to forgive her...she will then have to forgive herself...
Hmmm...are we talking about who's going to make the first move here? LL, I just don't feel like I can forgive right now. I mean, I'm getting over it, but to actually tell her that I forgive her? Those will be incredibly difficult words for me to say...especially if I'm not sure that I feel it. I agree it's kind of a grudge thing, but what to do???
I noticed that you've been a little stuck on this yourself...hence your last couple of posts. I will say, however, that on a couple of occasions my W is upset that I don't seem to "forgive" her yet...or maybe that her A still pains me frequently. I don't know if it will take me forgiving her first before she forgives herself and only then will she be able to move forward; or that she needs to simply work at our R like I've done for many years before any of that can happen.
Thing is, LL, she doesn't seem all that guilty. I mean, she's guilty, don't get me wrong. But it's like I posted a couple days ago, she doesn't show ALL that much remorse for her actions. I guess my expectations of what I think she should do are not helping in that regard. She did say the other night, "I'm sorry to put you though all of this. I would take it back if I could." I guess it's the matter of depth from which these words come. She's kind of a tough cookie, so I don't know... I guess I'm getting hung up on the semantics...
jethro
Hey J,
I am glad I didnt upset you. I have said it before I am not always good at saying what I mean. I think LL said it better.
Quote:
I guess I'm getting hung up on the semantics...
Exactly what I meant.
You are doing fine. Try focusing on you for awhile. Forgiveness doesnt happen over night. Have you taken any Jethro time lately?
jethro,
take some time to consider...if you did something intentionally or not that realy hurt w..she then came to know of it...you feel bad..for her...you feel bad for the way you feel...but are you going to be sad about it...
in a way I think at times they don't want to show their remorse over what they have done...simply because that is their pain..and at times they may feel they deserve the pain for what they have done...how could they expect you to comfort or understand their pain...and so they don't show it...thus we don't see them being remorseful (ya'd never know I have a bs the way I spell)
does that make any sense???
of course things would be better for us if they would show us that they are in pain..but just as it doesn't help them to see our pain...they would assume it to not help us to see theirs.
it just becomes one big ole mess!!!
does any of that help you toward forgiving...understanding that though it is not always obvious to you...you are both in pain??
LL
jethro, i understand how you feel. you know i am totally struggling with forgiveness and feeling less in love with my h.
it is hard because my h feels badly that he caused me pain and he didn't live up to his own expectations. he feels remorse for shock and pain it caused and all the other outcomes that happened that he never considered. however, he enjoyed the affairs, he said they were exciting, and they made him feel powerful. until the reality set in and the ow turned out to be a psycho. he had some fun, did some fun things, had exciting sex, etc...hard for me to forgive somethings about this. the worst is knowing my secrets were sahred. you and others here have helped me see that my h is on pain about this, and i think your w is too.
maybe my self-rightousness is getting in my way as i have a hard time believing my h's pain can compare in any way to waht i have been through. but maybe that doesn't even matter. we just have to accept what happened and make a choice to start trying to forgive. i think we are doing that or we wouldn't be here, right???
it is still early in this for you, and you are doing so well. you really are. my h and i have been piecing for almost a year now. and i am still struggling with my pain, hurt feelings and forgiveness.
lisa
Hiya Jethro,
When my husband cheated on me with his girlfriend (a year before we got married)...the same one who didn't stop calling even after we had gotten married, I was devastated.
He didn't tell me until we had been married a year, because he knew I wouldn't have married him if I had known.
In my desparation to end the pain, I searched for ways to make him pay. The problem was, no matter what I suggested, it was never enough.
I started DBing after he and I separated. And to stop myself from going crazy thinking that he'd call her while we were separated, (even though it's been 4 or 5 years since she's harrassed us,) I did the stop sign technique. It got to the point where I was able to let it go.
I think the fact that I wasn't able to let it go for so long is part of the reason why we are separated today.
You are still raw. You want the pain to go away. She probably just wants to forget about the whole thing.
The thing that helped me the most was to not dwell on it.
Just a big can of worms.
Keep your goals in mind.
I've heard several times that we will most likely never ever get an apology from our Spouse. That they acted the best way they could in the circumstances. They were blinded by the hurting and tried to get the pain to go away. Unfortunately, they caused more hurt.
What are you doing when the pain of the affair isn't so raw?
Just throwing stuff out there...I hope something I said helps!
Hugs.
I would like some help on my post in the midlife section. I am looking for things that work especially when you are separated. I am going to read up on as much of yours and some of the others on this thread and post something later.
Thank you.
Jethro,
I have not kept up with you since you changed your name. I have some catching up to do.
I need to see how the "pros" do this so I can get ready (in case OW fog ever lifts).
As Arnold would say: "I'll be back."
Thanks everyone for the visits. I will follow up and respond on my next thread (
Vacillations of a WAW Come Home III) as this one is getting a little tight.
Thanks!
jethro