Boundaries with Love - DivorceBusting.com

I'm starting a new thread, at the moderator's suggestion.

CL

Like the title.

Starsky

The next problem I'm anticipating is whether or not to go to the Winter Ball in December. The last time I went to a ball dance with my W, she had a terrible time. She complained she didn't dance enough, and that I was having too good a time without her. It made for a long ride home. Since that time we both have taken dance lessons to broaden our repertoire. I would like to go, but only if we can have a pleasant evening. The time before that, she wanted to leave after staying only an hour. One option would be to drive separately, so that she doesn't feel trapped, and I can stay.

She went to her smoking cessation class, without any reminders from me. She is planning on setting a quit date. She would like to have two acupuncture treatments, but we don't yet have the money. Maybe that's not my problem to solve. I wouldn't give her a hard time if she had the treatments done.

CL

I've been to two dance classes and one dance venue without my W this week. She was available to practice with me on Sunday, but hasn't been available since. She has attended two smoking cessation classes and is preparing to quit smoking. She also is adjusting to her new PT job (she described working again as empowering).

My car is making grinding noises when I try to start it. The mechanic seems to think it needs a new starter. I told my W that I need some financial help with this. I'm used to finding a way to pay for it on my own. I'm going to take responsibility to pay down my credit card debt, and use the cards sparingly. I think we need to meet with our financial planner sometime next year for a reality check, and to change some habits. WE may need to change the alocation of who pays towards what bills.

My W was invited for a weekend getaway with a friend of hers. They are going to spend two nights in a lodge in the middle of a state park about two hours from our home. Hopefully, something positive comes from this experience for her.

I'm loosening my grip on dancing expectations, and have no problem going to classes and venues by myself. The instructor lowered our dances for the competiion to two. Two to three practice sessions per week for the next two months seems attainable to me. I will take respnsibilty to remind her and plan for this, until she tell me otherwise. I like the idea of having a deadlline and event to work towards, otherwise our dance connection drifts too far apart, and I don't feel like we're moving forward.

CL

Good deal, CL, all the way around. And I think the time with her girlfriend, away, will be good for her.

I'm curious: how did your wife respond to your request for financial help with your car repairs?

Starsky

I'm sorry, CL, but something that I posted to you this afternoon seems to have disappeared. Not sure what's going on, but whatever it is, it's out of my control. I do wish you well, and will pray for you and your marriage.

Starsky

Originally Posted By: Starsky309

I'm curious: how did your wife respond to your request for financial help with your car repairs?

Starsky

She gave me no resistance, and said that we're in this together.

CL

Our dance instructor called yesterday, and is in the preliminary stage of entering my W and I in the local dance competition in January. I let my W know, who was concerned about the final bill (about $750). She asked me if this was important to me(it is) and agreed to go forward.

I'm excited about preparing for this competition. The routines are only about a minute long, with more an emphasis on technique versus performance (my strengths). This is a local competition, so most of the local dance community will be there. I want to be a participant in this.

The ongoing dilemma will be to determine how many of these competitions we can afford, and which ones to attend. I would like to attend 2-3 of these per year. The other dilemma will be how to balance my desires with my W's desire to have two vacations per year. The other dilemma will be how to pursue these interests and still manage our finances responsibly.

CL

Wow! CL it sounds like you're both making some very positive changes - everything from the finances around your car repairs, to going to dance class and venues by yourself, right to her getting ready to quit smoking. I'm really happy to see things are moving in a positive direction for you.

When I came home from work yesterday, I found my W asleep. I knew she had a smoking cessation class, but didn't know if she planned on attending or not. I chose not to ask her about it early in the day, not wanting to sound like a parent. I didn't know if I should wake her or not. I didn't hear an alarm go off, so chose to let her sleep. I took the dog for a walk.

When I returned, she was up and upset that I hadn't wakened her. I was disappointed that she had missed the class. I had plans (I sent her an email) to attend a dance class. She said it was too late to get ready for the class. I debated whether I should go or not.

I decided to go. I felt some guilt leaving her home, and didn't enjoy the class as much as I usually do. If I had stayed, it would have been unpleasant for both of us. When I returned, she was in a better mood. I decided that it was her responsibility to prepare herself and make arrangements for the smoking cessation class. It was unfortunate that her alarm didn't go off. She could have left me a note, or a phone call. There's one class left. I'm still proud of her for attending the classes she did.

CL

I'm anticipating having to make a decision about whether or not to buy more dance lessons. I've been spoiled this past year. Between the two of us, my W and I will have attended around 30 dance lessons. This is quite an investment, similar to taking a vacation. However, due to my W's recent unemployment, we will need to take a look at if we can continue the same pace. Due to my current financial situation, am not able to contribute to further private dance lessons. We have three remaining, with a dance competition coming in January. My W has bought lessons from her personal savings in the past.

I'm trying to get myself in the right frame of mind to be flexible when the time comes to make a decision. The instructor (trying to make a living) will push us to buy another 10 lesson package. If my W is comfortable buying another one (I don't know what's in her personal accounts), than it's business as usual. If she hesitates, we'll need a back-up plan. I would propose scaling back the frequency of lessons to bi-weekly and paying out of pocket, until we're in a position to buy another package.

The other problem is trying to get my W to practice with me. It's an adjustment since she has returned to work, and is now tired at the end of a day. She was complaining to the instructor that we don't practice enough, but turns me down most of the time when I ask. It seems like I will need to catch her earlier in the evening when I don't have dance classes or when we don't have other plans. The emphasis is more on technique versus choreography this time, so I'm more able to practice on my own. I've been trying to not be discouraged, yet flexible, and either go out on my own to practice with others, or turn the music on at home and practice on my own. If I put negative emotions into the process, she will not want to be my partner in this. I would like to compete with her, but will consider someone else, if she backs out.

I also anticipate when we go to our next lesson, she will paint an inaccurate picture about the reasons for the lack of joint practice. I'll have to decide whether to let my dancing speak for itself, or fuss with her in front of the instructor.

CL

I received an email from my W giving me some guidelines about when she's available for dance practice. She's available in the early evening, as soon as I get home from work, or weekends during the day. In the summer, we would often practice late at night, but that doesn't seem to work at this time.

She attended her last smoking cessation class last night. She seems to be further in the planning process than I've ever seen her. She's talking about buying some type of mint that has nicotine in it. It's going to be an adjustment for her, as coffee and alcohol are triggers for her.

She's ambivalent about the dance competition, and would like to pull out but won't because she made an earlier commitment. She seems out of sorts these days. We've missed our weeknight Salsa venue three weeks in a row. I will encourage her to hold onto the positives, even when she doesn't always feel like it. I will encourage her to continue her commitment to the dance competition, and to continue dance lessons on a regular basis.

The boundaries I think are to allow her to struggle, but not lower my quality of life because of it. This means that I continue to go to lessons or dance venues by myself, even when she's not up to it. I need to stay strong, yet compassionate for myself and both of us.

CL

My W and I had an excellent time at the dance convention. It served as a weekend getaway for us, and was refreshing. She was brimming with positive emotion on the way home. She enjoyed the connections we had made, the time away from her problems, and the chance to rest. We were able to nogotiate a deep discount for a hotel room, so there was little financial stress about the trip. She bought some jewelry while she was there, and seems happy with it. She took the money out of her personal account.

She continues to be ambivalent about the dance competition in January. Her concern is paying for it, and continueing to pay for dance lessons. I'm guessing it will cost around $750. I''m going to continue to advocate that we can find a way to do 2-3 dance competitions per year, as long as they are local, and we buy tickets peicemeal, instead of entire packages. I want to do these becasue of the excitement I have for preparing for and eventually performing in them. It's unusual for me to want something of this magnitude. This is important to me, so would like her to problem-solve with me on how to fit it into our lives. Is she were still unemployed, I would back out, but since she's working, I think we can do this.

CL

I didn't sleep well last night, frustrated that we may not have the money to enter the dance competition in January. My tendency is to be overly accommodating instead of identifying and advocating for my needs. I've been letting her decide what to attend and focus on in lessons. I now would like to try a dance competition.

When we were first married we split expenses, which allowed me to save a great deal of money. I took over the expenses several years ago when my W was unemployed for about a year, during a period of depression. This hasn't changed. Since that time I haven't been able to save like I used to. She is generous with her money, and I do have access to the joint account for minor expenses.

I'm finding myself wanting to throw up my hands and tell her to just forget it, maybe to avoid getting my hopes up and later be disappointed. I'm not sure what the best compromise is--coming up with a financial solution to do this event, or waiting until we've had consistent cash flow and trying another event next year.

I sent her an email letting her know that I would like to do 2-3 local dance competitions per year. That's my position for now. I'll need to be flexible about the one in January. I don't want her to do it if it's going to cause financial stress, or her heart's not into it. The dance teacher is skeptical about our commitment to this. We'll need to make a decision soon.

CL

I read an editorial in today's paper from a local professor who at one time was homelees. He reminded us to be thankful for having a roof over our head, food in our stomach, a mind that works, and clothes on our backs. I would add good health, and the loved ones in our lives. This helps put my worries into perspective.

My W is working herself up to quitting smoking. She has the nicotine mints in her purse, ready to use. She knows that regular exercise is a significant part of the solution, and that she will have to avoid certain triggers, such as alcohol. I stand back and let her wrestle with this on her own.

I called and let the dance instructor know that my W and I only want a barebones package for the dance competition (six dances, no food, no parties, tickets to watch the competitions). We'll see if this takes the price down to our targeted range.

i think I'm figuring things out regarding my W and dancing. I'm responsible for my own improvement and practice. I'm grateful for anything my W can offer, but she has the right to not attend any venue, enter any competition, or any class, or provide lessons. I have to be flexible enough to attend classes, or venues on my own, and practice on my own. I have to accept that private lessons will not always be provided, and may have to attend group classes for periods of time. When I go to a venue with my W, she is my priority, and will get the majority of my time. If I encounter problems, I have to plan for them, and work thru them.

CL

Good morning CL, that sounds like it was a great editorial. It's important that we count our blessings, even when it seems like they're few and far between! It sounds like you're putting your energies into controlling and changing the things you can, and acknowledging those things you cannot. Good for you... that's a very healthy place. I struggle with that daily and admire your work towards living it. I hope you have a lovely thanksgiving. FMV.

My W seems to be in a funk these past several weeks. She hasn't been going to dance venues as much, is spotty with her attendance at exercise classes, is difficult to get to practice dancing. Her commitment to smoking seems to be fading. she spends too much time in front of the computer smoking and drinking alcohol. We talked last night about the importance of engaging in one recreational activity per day. I'm going to influence her to join me in some of my activities (fitness center, dance classes, practices). The good news is that when she goes out, she is usually glad she did, and perks up for that day.

We attended our private dance lesson yesterday, and are continuing on our journey towards the competition in January. My guess is, as we get closer to the event, she will be jolted out of her procrastination, and will put more effort into practice. Until then, I will practice on my own, and try to get her to practice together. She bought a 23 lesson package, with unlimited group lessons, and other perks. This should keep us busy for awhile. My efforts at scaling back the dances to two, scaling back the package to what we can afford, and lobbying for the importance of participating in the competition has paid off so far, by keeping her involved in the process. I think it's important for us to take advantage of this opportunity, and take our dance skills and partnership to a higher level.

CL

Originally Posted By: Concerned_Listener

My W seems to be in a funk these past several weeks. She hasn't been going to dance venues as much, is spotty with her attendance at exercise classes, is difficult to get to practice dancing. Her commitment to smoking seems to be fading. she spends too much time in front of the computer smoking and drinking alcohol. We talked last night about the importance of engaging in one recreational activity per day. I'm going to influence her to join me in some of my activities (fitness center, dance classes, practices). The good news is that when she goes out, she is usually glad she did, and perks up for that day.

CL, have you read any of Harriet Lerner's work on overfunctioning & underfunctioning patterns in couples, and ways to break them? (I mean, break the patterns, not the couples)

I think her work might speak directly to the type of interactions you seem to be having here.

FMV,
I will look into her books, and put them on my reading list. I was able to influence my W to join me for yoga. We both felt better for going. She ended-up socializing with the teacher, who she admires. We went to breakfast afterward. She was able to nap later in the day. She is willing to commit to the yoga class weekly. We seem to fit well into our fitness club, that we joined this summer. It's only a 10 minute drive from home.

My W and I practiced the technique we learned the day before at the lesson. After some fussing, I was finally able to incorporate some of the movement.

CL

My W went to a yoga class on Sunday, a dance class on Monday, and Pilates last night. Every time she goes, she brightens-up, and is glad she pushed thru. I pat myself on the back for agreeing to join our new fitness club. It's close to home, and we seem to fit socially there.

She's more enjoyable to be with when she stays physically and recreationally active. Last night, she considered staying home, but decided she wasn't going to do anything constructive, so chose to go. I decided to leave for class early to prevent her from changing her mind. The problem is settling down after work, and losing the momentum to keep the day going. She gets home earlier than I do, so it's more of a problem for her. I have a brief break after work, so I'm able to keep going.

Her work probably won't last long-term, but it keeps her busy for now. She's helping the owner of three restaurants gain some clarity on his financial status. He was keeping poor records, and making poor financial decisions. He now has some cash-flow problems.

CL

My W continues to have the problems of quitting smoking and finding an enjoyable job. She works for a restaurant owner who made poor financial and business decisions and is now having cash flow problems. She seems to get herself stuck in feelings, and has trouble taking the first or continuing steps to solve her problems. What can I do to help?

I'm excited about participating in a dance competition in January. We have six weeks left to prepare for it. The one dance involves doing the steps in a specific way. I seem to be more committed to it than she is. What are the options? I can let her off the hook or keep it going with the idea that structure, a deadline, and a new experience are what's best for both of us. Of course, if she said, I don't want to do it, I wouldn't force her. On the other hand, I don't want to dismiss my needs, and let her completely drive the partnership.

In talking to her about her problems, it seems that having structure and commitments are what she needs to keep herself from staying stuck. She's made good decisions this week about evening and weekend recreation, and has attended with me a yoga class, Pilates class, two dance classes, two Salsa dances, a private dance lesson, and a movie.

My frustration is that she's not more committed to the dance competition. I have to be careful that I don't get into being judging, or self-centered, or too committed to the stories I'm creating in my head about how it's supposed to be, or controlling of how I think she's supposed to be approaching this.

A dance partnership is a process of exploration and compromise to meet each other's needs. There is give and take and eventually with effort and practice, magical events and dances happen. My W and I had a magical time at a Friday night dance. It was the mix of people there, and the evolution of the community, and the set-up of the venue, which created a night of connection beyond the dancing. My W and I went home glowing that night.

CL

Originally Posted By: Concerned_Listener

She seems to get herself stuck in feelings, and has trouble taking the first or continuing steps to solve her problems. What can I do to help?

CL, you're obviously a kind man and show love for your wife by wanting to help 'fix'. However, I think the biggest thing you can do to help her right now, is to take a step back, and deal with your own anxiety around allowing her to solve her own problems.

When your W gets 'stuck in her feelings'... what is it that YOU are feeling? Can you share that with us?

Originally Posted By: FindingMyVoice

However, I think the biggest thing you can do to help her right now, is to take a step back, and deal with your own anxiety around allowing her to solve her own problems.

When your W gets 'stuck in her feelings'... what is it that YOU are feeling? Can you share that with us?

I am gatting better at letting go and letting her fix her own problems--smoking cessation, job-hunting. I do want to influence what I can--reminders to practice dancing, attend exercise classes, getting her up after naps for evening recreation or morning lessons, going to restaurants.

My feelings are probably different for each episode. They include frustration, annoyance, disappointment, embarrassment, anger, fear.

CL

Originally Posted By: Concerned_Listener

My feelings are probably different for each episode. They include frustration, annoyance, disappointment, embarrassment, anger, fear.

Tell me more about the anger, CL.

FMV,
The anger is towards myself, for not being stronger (more vocal, expressive, boundary-setting) during the sleeping elsewhere phases.

CL

Originally Posted By: Concerned_Listener

The anger is towards myself, for not being stronger (more vocal, expressive, boundary-setting) during the sleeping elsewhere phases.

(((CL))) I see. Good for you for acknowledging that - that's hard to do. Do you think, too, that you might still have some anger towards her too, for her actions?

FMV,
I probably do, but it seems to have faded since the connection has increased this past year. At some point, it might be helpful to have an honest discussion about what happened. My guess is it's still too soon. She seems to talk about it from a distance.

CL

Originally Posted By: Concerned_Listener

At some point, it might be helpful to have an honest discussion about what happened. My guess is it's still too soon. She seems to talk about it from a distance.

Wow. You guys haven't discussed it yet. Wow. Well I sure don't have any experience with knowing when to discuss something like that. But. I'm just curious. You seem to be doing an awful lot of work protecting her from having to deal with number of things - discussing what happened; having to fall on her own with her problems. You often seem preoccupied with it, wondering 'how you can help her'...

I just wonder ... do you think it might be possible that you're 'overfunctioning' about her problems, in a subconscious way to avoiding having to deal with your own hurt, anger and pain over what happened?

What is it that YOU need from this M, CL?

Originally Posted By: FindingMyVoice

I just wonder ... do you think it might be possible that you're 'overfunctioning' about her problems, in a subconscious way to avoiding having to deal with your own hurt, anger and pain over what happened?

What is it that YOU need from this M, CL?

FMV,
No, I don't think I'm avoiding emotional pain. I get up most mornings to write in a journal and write poetry. I keep myself connected to feelings and express them and articulate them.

The second question is more difficult to answer quickly and will require some reflection. I prefer the words want or desire or expect. I'm at work so will respond some morning from my home computer. Maybe the way to answer the question is think what I want for myself in terms of my life, and see where M would fit into that.

I do believe that it's important for me to express my desires in our dance partnership, instead of me simply going along with her whims, or her venues or her favorite dances. The dance partnership is giving me an opportunity to express my desires into the partnership. It's important for me to be checking to make sure I'm not being overly accomodating, under the guise of being helpful or not respecting my desires.

She hasn't attended dance class this week. I was able to get her to practice by taking my shoes to exercise class, and encouraging us to practice after class, rather than her settling in at home. She doesn't like either of the dances we've been working on. the one dance is difficult, and most students are struggling with it. I think I would be neglecting my needs by dropping out of the competition. I think there needs to be a balance between stretching ourselves, and making things to easy. I'll stay quiet for now, and see what happens at our next private lesson.
The teacher has a responsibility to guide us thru this, and prepare us for the competition.

CL

Originally Posted By: FindingMyVoice

You seem to be doing an awful lot of work protecting her from having to deal with number of things - discussing what happened; having to fall on her own with her problems.

FMV,
I think protection is a good word to describe what I often do. I don't think I'm protecting her; I think I'm protecting myself. It's that old pattern of conflict avoidance--particularly over long-standing problems (finances, smoking in the house, sex). It's easier to deal with dancing conflict. It's harder to change habits and relational patterns that have coasted for years.

As far as a discussion about what happened, i don't need to hear the story of her EA/PA. I want to know what's on her mind, or was on her mind. This is difficult for her, as I've mentioned. She speaks to it indirectly.

I need to remember that things have changed significantly from a year ago. A year ago my W joined me at the new dance studio I found. It was awkward having her there. I didn't feel like a couple. It was awkward being in public with her at dance venues, knowing that our problems were played out in public , to some extent. People ask me about the status of our R, on an ongoing basis, as our presence as a couple is still uncertain to some people.

CL

Originally Posted By: FindingMyVoice

What is it that YOU need from this M, CL?

FMV,
I'll approach this questiion as if I'm in a therapist's office who is asking me what I would like to see different in the M. I would like my W and I to work as financial partners. This means to sit down with a financial planner (we have one) and look at our net worth and make adjustments to savings, budget, debt reduction, retirement as-needed. I'm waiting for my W to find a better job, so we can approach this from a stronger position.

I would like more physical contact with my W. I'm nervous about sex, but think nonsexual contact needs to be restored. My W sits at a computer, while I sit on the couch. The only easy opportunity for contact, is when we sleep together. Maybe this is one of those areas where I'm protecting myself. It seems that initiating nonsexual contact in the bedroom is a next step.

I would like my W to take better care of herself, including smoking cessation. I can and do influence her to attend exercise classes. She has been more proactive this year, since we joined a fitness center closer to home. She drinks several beers most evenings, while she's in front of the computer. I think this is her way of calming herself. This is an area I have to be patient with, and let her make her own choices.

I want to socialize as a couple, and be known as a couple. This has increased this past year, and it's often enjoyable. This is an area that has been dormant for a long time, due to the problems over the years.

I want to develop a mutually satisfying dance partnership. I want my desires and hers to be expressed in the dance partnership. I want to work towards competitions 2-3X per year, because it helps to keep me focused and have a goal. I want to work on the more graceful dances such as Foxtrot, so I can go to any dance venue and be able to participate. I want us to take lessons and practice together on a regular basis.

I think these are the areas that are priority at this time.

CL

Originally Posted By: Concerned_Listener

The only easy opportunity for contact, is when we sleep together.

Do you think so? I think maybe other men think the same way. But it so surprises me because I don't think it's how a lot of us women 'work'. I've often told my H how much it helps me feel more sexual towards him, when he touches me in little ways throughout each day; a long, intimate kiss in the morning (not one of those silly hurried pecks on the cheek before work); a stroke on the back of the neck; holding hands while walking somewhere... I think by waiting until you're in the bedroom, even if it's just nonsexual, is missing out on a lot of opportunities to rebuild the connection that leads to physical intimacy.

Originally Posted By: Concerned_Listener

I would like my W to take better care of herself, including smoking cessation.

So is this one of your needs of the M CL? I get where you're coming from, but this seems like a slippery slope. Her actions around this are out of your control. I fear if you keep trying to 'influence' her in this area she is going to start feeling inadequate and controlled.

Originally Posted By: FindingMyVoice

I think by waiting until you're in the bedroom, even if it's just nonsexual, is missing out on a lot of opportunities to rebuild the connection that leads to physical intimacy.

Her actions around this are out of your control. I fear if you keep trying to 'influence' her in this area she is going to start feeling inadequate and controlled.

FMV,
It sounds like I've been coasting for some time in the physical intimacy area. When that part of a R has been derailed it's hard to know when it's safe to resume. I need to start taking small steps towards nonsexual physical connection beyond the bedroom.

It's hard to know where the line is between influencing and controlling. I think I stay shy of the controlling line in terms of encouraging her to join me at our fitness center. I invite her to join me, push a little, and then back-off if it's clear she doesn't want to.

Last night we performed with our studio's formation team at a downtown convention and met afterwards for drinks. It gave us an opportunity to connect with fellow students of the studio, and for others to get to know us as a couple.

Tonight we're attempting another big hall ballroom dance. I'm insisting to my W that we stay at least two hours, and we can leave if she wants after that. In the past, I let her abruptly cut short the evening, because she was intimidated by it. I'll give her my attention, and will only dance with others, if she's with a partner. She'll probably pick at my technique rather than relax into the evening, I'll not let it influence my evening. Hopefully, it goes better this time around, as we both have a broader repertoire. She doesn't like to struggle in public, which is her issue. I can relax into mistakes better than she can. I'll try to remember all experiences are part of the process of exploration and developing a dance partnership.

CL

Hi CL, just checking in to see how your week is going, any progress towards your relationship goals?

FMV,
I think we're staying the course. My W was on good behavior at the big hall ballroom dance. I honored my commitment and left after two hours. We were able to dance together without much fussing. I consider this progress. She wasn't asked to dance much by other guys. I told our studio instructor that I would be willing to organize getting a table for our students at the next dance in March.

We're spending a lot of free time together these days--dance lessons, exercise, restaurants, dance venues. The connection has been restored. Maybe the ground is getting fertile for intimacy.

I had looked into refinancing our mortgage for 15 years several weeks ago. It would have raised our payment by too much for us. She came to me this week and offered to pay down the mortgage by $10K to make if possible for us to consider this.

We seem to like the same restaurants (good value and food versus fine dining, such as bars, delis, tea houses), the same dances (Cha Cha, Rumba, Salsa, and I'll add Foxtrot).

When she complains to me about her job with the restaurant owner who mismanages his finances, I ask her what her next step is. I won't rescue her, but will assist her. I used to look for job ads for her, but now won't take on her problems.

I think about what you said about protecting her. I understand the word protect more than I do enabling, though both mean the same thing. The word protect has been resonating with me ever since you pointed it out.

CL

Originally Posted By: Concerned_Listener

FMV,
I think about what you said about protecting her. I understand the word protect more than I do enabling, though both mean the same thing. The word protect has been resonating with me ever since you pointed it out.

(((CL))) Wish I could take credit for that one... it's one of the things I learned from reading 'The Dance of Anger', by Harriet Lerner.

I'm in the dog house today. Last night a hose broke in my car around 25 miles from home, on the way home from work. My W and I had committed to perform with our studio early in the evening. I didn't know what to do to keep the commitment. I didn't want to harm the car by driving it home. I tried to reach my W, who wasn't answering her phone. I called AAA and hoped for the best. The only other option was to leave the car stranded, and take a taxi home, and tend to the car later. The instructor told my W he would dance with her. I told my W to go on without me. She chose to stay home to tend to me. Today I'm being punished for that decision. I am disappointed that we missed being with our dance students. I don't think she realizes how disappointed I am, and how frustrated I was when the car had problems.

My W is threatening to quit her part-time job. I recommend job-hunting while she has the job. She's paid for 20 hours, but puts in more time than that. She wants to go to a job-hunting group one day per week, but has been missing that. I told her my concerns about her being at home with nothing to do, and not moving forward like she did this summer. She says that it's time to take care of herself. She says that she doesn't know how to job-hunt. I told her that possibly that that's her next step--to see how people she knows job-hunt these days and what resources they use. I would say her job-hunting procrastination is catching-up with her.

She's changed her mind about the refinancing. I'm fine with that. We can make extra payments at some point to shorten the life of the loan.

She threatened again to quit the dance competition, saying we can't afford it. I told her that it was far cheaper than her vacations, and one of few things I ask for. She didn't say a word at the lesson today. I paid for it myself. The lesson went well, and I must say we're starting to look pretty good. We were working more on arm styling today. I've also figured-out how to get her to practice. I bring dance shoes to our exercise classes, and remind her to practice for 1/2 hour after class. This works far better than getting her to practice at home.

My W and I are having a conflict about how to spend the holidays. My siblings are going to norhern Ohio to meet my parents. If I were to go, my W would be in town alone for part of the time. She has a sibling coming into town for part of the time. There's also the question about what to do with the cooking job, which pays great money. I told my mother that I was still making plans, and she told me she understood if I couldn't make it. I'll let this situation percolate, and see I my W and I can a compromise. I think she's right to complain that I made travel plans without consulting with her.

She sounds like she has bronchitis or a respiratory problem. I would say her smoking cessation procrastination is catching-up with her. I'll again ask her what her next step is, to help get out her mental paralysis.

CL

My holiday travel plans are up in the air. It looks like I took the wrong day off. We had agreed (my W reluctantly so, as she tells me now) to cook on the day I return from my holiday. She now tells me she is unhappy with the arrangement, as it leaves her alone for too long, and prevents her from visiting her sibling.

I agree with my W that she we shouldn't skip a cooking week. We don't want to live a life of austerity. We both want to have disposable income to enjoy meals out, dance lessons, movies. My W wants vacations and a new car.

My W seems on the verge of leaving her part-time job. The quality of her job is poor. She's working for a restaurant that is in financial distress, and the owner continues to make decisions that keep the chaos going. My fear is that if my W quits, she will continue to procrastinate with job-hunting. We will also have to accept the financial consequences of her decision. I don't argue with her about quitting the job. I ask her what she will do with her time, if she quits.

Last year my W was working, so felt comfortable missing a cooking week. I think if I insisted on going, it would cause harm to the R, and it might derail the connection.

CL

I think I am going to stay in town with my W for the holidays. It's harder for her to spend a weekend alone over Christmas than it is any other weekend, for various reasons. She would feel abandoned if I travelled out of town.

Financial pressure is higher this week. My car needed two new tires, and a hose broke in a hard to reach spot. I had to rent a car for work this week. I wrote a check for the dance competition, and my W secured a hotel room. Two dance competitions per year may be the limit. This is getting to be an expensive hobby. My W is upset about spending personal money for another dance lesson package. I wrote her an email trying to offer support for the next package, and she read something else into it, and has been accusing me of expecting her to pay for dance lessons. I wonder if my W and I should sit down with a financial professional to get some clarity and direction.

Her pattern over the past year has been to sign us up for trips and studio events without asking me. When her personal account is low, I hear about it and am blamed for expecting her to pay for things. I could have done without most of those trips.

She's threatening to quit her job this week. She's in blaming, complaining, nothing is right mode. I don't know what to do to help her. When I walked in the door last night, she jumped on me for hoarding pens in the basement.

Our dance practice went well after yoga class yesterday. Practice sessions after an exercise class seem to work the best. At home, she gets settled, and is surrounded by problems. I insist on 30 minutes, and we went well beyond that. Our Foxtrot is starting to come together. It's was an enjoyable time together where we worked as partners. It gives me hope that we can apply the same to other problems, besides dancing. Yesterday's practice sessions worked, because of my leadership in structuring the practice times, being prepared for practice, and having a vision of what I wanted to achieve.

CL

Originally Posted By: Concerned_Listener

She's in blaming, complaining, nothing is right mode.

And, how do you respond to hear when she's exhibiting aggressive behaviors like this, CL?

Originally Posted By: FindingMyVoice

And, how do you respond to hear when she's exhibiting aggressive behaviors like this, CL?

Last night I refused to agree with things she said that I thought were not true. I've been holding my ground, as I don't believe I did anything wrong the night my car broke down and we missed the studio's event. When it became clear the conversation was not going to be constructive, I went to bed.

I'll need a plan. I would say I should not be reactive and try to find a way to make her happy--that somehow if I cleaned enough, or shovelled the drive more thoroughly, she would be happy. I can be open to problem-solving with her. If there is something I can do to help manage her stress, I will. whe I ask what I can do to help her job-hunt, I get I don't know. The answer to your question is to speak to her when it's constructive, avoid her if we're wasting time, be willing to problem-solve with her when the opportunity is there, and continue to participate with her in recreational activities. In other words, don't stay too long with her drama when it's not constructive.

CL

FMV,
I want to add to my plan that I won't be forced into saying something I don't believe, or doing something I don't agree with.

CL

I was pleasantly surprised last night when my W joined me for dance class. The dance community is bonding at this studio, and it's nice to be a part of it. Our connection is growing with people at this studio. These evenings at the studio, typically brighten our moods.

A year ago, my W bought herself a package of lessons, in which I was invited to film for her. I bought myself a package of lessons too. Today the accounts are in one name, she bought a package of private lessons that should last thru the summer, and group lessons that will last a year. and we are working together for a competition in January.

She is happy that I'm staying home for the holidays, and is beginning to plan our weekend. I can see now how difficult it was for her when I travelled that weekend. It's easier for her to make plans for herself over other holiday weekends. She didn't have a problem when I visisted my parents over Labor Day weekend.

Shd didn't quit her job, but did not put in extra time like she has been in the past.

CL

I'm spending the holiday weekend home with my W this year, and am not traveling to my hometown to be with my siblings, relatives, and parents. I don't recall ever doing this before. If I went, my W would have been alone for most of the weekend, and we would have missed the cooking job.

I still haven't been proactive about physical contact with my W. It seems like the right time to move forward on this issue.

It seems to me our financial situation needs a plan and some structure. We don't have a savings plan, so are caught off-guard when unexpected expenses arise. I try to save a little each month, but my income is earmarked for bills. We also have too much debt. I'd like to meet with our financial planner in the new year.

Our two dances for the Januray competition are starting to look and feel good. I seem to be more excited about this than my W is. I think our dancing needs some structure, and goals, otherwise we're drifting. I've figured out that I can easily get my W to practice after an exercise class at our fitness center.

CL

I'm thinking I need to step it up in the physical contact area. There isn't any sexual spark at this time, so probably shouldn't venture there. I'm looking for opportunity to have physical contact such as helping her out of a car, or holding a door, helping her with dance shoes, or holding her arm when walking down a city block. I need to be more thoughtful in this way. I think this is the next step. It's easy to get comfortable staying in the same patterns.

I'm not sure what to do about New Year's Eve. There are ballroom dance opportunities, but my guess is that she wouldn't have a good time, unless we went somewhere where she knew a lot of people. I'll send her an email, and see where she's at with this.

I have to make sure I keep a balance of self-care and relationship time.

CL

You may have stated it before but do not recall seeing it. Is it that she does not want you to touch her or are you uncomfortable having physical contact with her?

If helping her out of a car or holding her arm are big steps then I whole heartedly agree that sex is a fair bit in the future.

Maybe you could elaborate some more on this.

If you dance together, you must have physical contact in some capacity. While some of the other contact you list has different associations, would it really be that much to reach out and hold her hand for a moment and smile at her when something is going right? Seems like a reasonable next step. I am tempted to say you need to be a bit daring and forward. You need to lead, as they sometimes say around here. She seems to want to see a little fire coming from you. Would a New Years kiss be too cliche?

That said, I don't know the whole of your situation as it relates to physical intimacy, so can't offer any truly reasoned advice. Good luck.

Originally Posted By: DownNotOut...yet

If helping her out of a car or holding her arm are big steps then I whole heartedly agree that sex is a fair bit in the future.

I wouldn't call these big steps, but small steps. Things have gotten too comfortable again. The connection has improved, but now we're two friends hanging-out. This is good, and it is progress. I need to start acting like a boyfriend. This is why I'm proposing simple acts of affection. I'm hoping it will break the platonic pattern and lead us in the right direction.

CL

Her "sleeping elsewhere" is outright defiance. She spent the night away leaving no doubt what she was doing. Definitely not trying to hide it. Also, having sex with someone in your living room while you are at home reeks of this too. She's outright challenging you. She's saying ,If you don't someone else will.

You seem to be fine with this.

Originally Posted By: tmite

You seem to be fine with this.

What you say about the past sleeping elsewhere is probably true. I understand that the physical intimacy issue will need to be resolved. I'll have to move forward in ways that I can. I don't think it would work if I tried to have sex with my W. She's sensitive to anything that hints at rejection. There would be too much pressure. Neither one of us would be relaxed. I'll have to work my way up to it.

I also agree that it's my responsibility to address the issue and move forward in some fashion. I'm prepared to do that.

CL

Catching up. I have been off computer for almost 2 months so have lots to read. I will wish you a Happy New Year now.

Nice to hear from you Matilda. Happy New Year to you also.

I'm paying attention to ways where I privately "throw my W out of my heart", when I'm annoyed by her. In the past I would stay annoyed and keep a distance too long. I've figured-out that this human pattern of avoiding discomfort has been getting me into trouble in my M, because I'm allowing her behavior to have too much control over my attitude and emotions. I've been thinking that maybe this is partially why I keep a distance from my W. I'm too influenced by her poor habits. This is selfish, unskilled, and reactive on my part.

I've been working on improving my attitude thru religious reading and practice in Tibetan Buddhism. These religious ideas make the most sense to me, and are the most helpful, so it only makes sense to continue practicing in this way.

I've been reminded in my reading that pleasure and avoidance of discomfort are not entitlements in life, they are an inherent part of it. I have to practice holding onto my own happiness even when my W is being blaming, critical, or disrespectful. I set limits as-needed, but the piece that has been missing is being able to return my mind to a state of happiness (peace of mind not contingent upon pleasure, material possessions, approval of others, or of other's opinions of me). This allows me to return to a positive connection with my W as quickly as possible, versus past patterns of brooding.

CL

My W and I had an enjoyable New Year's Eve. We spent it with the Salsa community at a gathering of about 40-50 people. These are acquaintances/friends we know well, and have known for six years. Our plan was to stay two hours and celebrate the New Year at home. We had such a wonderful time we stayed for four hours and brought in the New Year as part of a community. I made sure to seek out my W and gave her a hug. We both said that it was the most enjoyable New Years we had ever spent.

At home she kicked me out of the bedroom for eating what was left of the seafood salad. I get impulsive sometimes with food, and took a snack she was hoping to have. I'll work on holding onto a good attitude in spite of her anger with me. I'll go out in the morning and replace it for her.

CL

Quote:

At home she kicked me out of the bedroom for eating what was left of the seafood salad

She must be a lot bigger than you.

Hi CL,

I still read but don't post much, however your last post sent me scurrying to the keyboards as it sounded so familiar.

Originally Posted By: CL 07/27/10

She's also upset with me because I ate her carryout leftover. I thought we operated under a 24 hour rule (after 24 hours, it's mine). I guess she had her mind set on this entree. She was angry when it wasn't available. The 24 hour rule has now been replaced with asking permission each time.

Lanzo??? As in my friend Lanzo?

How you doing sweetie?

Sorry for butting in like that, Concerned Listener. If you go back to the beginning of Lazo's thread, it might help you identify with him and help you in your stitch.

Originally Posted By: sandi2

She must be a lot bigger than you.

Sandy and Lanzo,
Thanks for dropping by. I have let her bark intimidate, and paralyze me far too often. I'm working on changing this pattern.

My W and I went to a movie last night. It was a great movie about a stuttering king and his relationship with his speech therapist. Halfway home in the car, I asked my W if she wanted to go anywhere. She was upset because she wanted to go to a restaurant next to the theater. I told her she should have said something, as I didn't know. She said it was too late and said to go home.

At home, she complained incessantly about the missed opportunity of her desired restaurant. I've been working on not walking away and shutting down when she's disagreeable, and trying to influence her to be constructive. In this case I offered her an alternative restaurant. She finally conveyed that the night was still young, and she wanted to go out some more. I picked a restaurant we've had success at. We had a great time there discussing the movie. Under my influence, I was able to not let her spoil the evening, and moved us forward.

Our dance competition is in two weeks. I need to make sure I take responsibility for my own experience. I'm happy with the consistent practice we've had this past month. I'm not sure what to wear. I may call or email the instructor about this. I didn't purchase an expensive outfit for my first competition, as I'm trying to keep this affordable.

CL

Hey C-L,

It's been a while since I've posted, but I still check in now and again to keep myself on the right path....

anyway, as I was reading your thread a question struck me and I was wondering if you know the answer...

why doesn't your wife speak up or take initiative when things involve her?

I know what my answer to that was and I still struggle every now and again, but it's something I'm working on. So I'm not baiting or anything, honest. What is driving your wife's behavior..... the left-overs in the fridge she wanted, but didn't mention, the restraunt, and I'm sure there's more....they're all stemming from the same place.

I mean in my house if I spoke up and said "I'll take the leftovers for lunch tomorrow" I'd wake up and H would have taken them for his lunch because he didn't remember or didn't focus long enough to hear what I said. Before, I just stopped speaking up and took my chances so to speak.

Now, we have sharpies and sticky notes near the fridge, if the kids or I are claiming the leftovers for our lunches, we actually claim them with our name on them. Problem solved. no fights, no assumptions, no resentment, and H doesn't have to listen or remember- it's a win win.

So why doesn't your wife speak her wishes? and what can you do to help her begin to?

Originally Posted By: Soxfan2008

why doesn't your wife speak up or take initiative when things involve her?

So why doesn't your wife speak her wishes? and what can you do to help her begin to?

I believe she has made some improvement over the past year with this, but it still is a consistent pattern for her. I don't know what role I may have played with it in the past, though I believe it is her issue. I'm trying not to accept her blame for failure to speak-up. I do need to remind myself to be thoughtful of her, and not focus on only my needs. I also try to hang in there with her when she finally states her needs in a gruff way.

I think this plays into her job-hunting paralysis too. She needs to let others know she is looking for work, but she gets stuck in her feelings. She was sharing this with me yesterday. I told her that action was more important than being hopeful, as she said she felt hopeless. It was the most helpful thing I could think of to say.

CL

Originally Posted By: Concerned_Listener

Originally Posted By: Soxfan2008

why doesn't your wife speak up or take initiative when things involve her?

So why doesn't your wife speak her wishes? and what can you do to help her begin to?

I believe she has made some improvement over the past year with this, but it still is a consistent pattern for her. I don't know what role I may have played with it in the past, though I believe it is her issue.

Morning CL, and happy new year. I guess that's the thing about patterns. What I've found, is that whenever I see a pattern in my H that I'm unhappy with, there's always, always a pattern I'm playing along with it, that is actually helping to sustain and reinforce his part of it.

Note here... when I say 'sustain it' I don't mean 'cause' it. I don't think either party 'causes' a pattern to happen. To assess it that way can induce blame, self-blame and guilt. Which of course defeats the creativity and mutual compassion we need to change the pattern in the first place. When two people live together for a long time I think they just happen.

Anyways, I'd suggest giving more serious thought to what you said - "I don't know what role I may have played with it in the past". In saying that, I want to stress again that I'm not saying you've caused this or are to blame. Just that we can change an awful lot in these patterns - even in other person's role in it, by changing our own behaviors in it first.

Originally Posted By: FindingMyVoice

I don't know what role I may have played with it in the past, though I believe it is her issue.

What I've found, is that whenever I see a pattern in my H that I'm unhappy with, there's always, always a pattern I'm playing along with it, that is actually helping to sustain and reinforce his part of it.

Anyways, I'd suggest giving more serious thought to what you said - "I don't know what role I may have played with it in the past". [/quote]

FMV,
I began, at your suggestion reading "The Dance of Intimacy" by Harriet Lerner. I'm good at self-management, getting better at assertiveness, working on maintaining a better attitude, and boundary setting, but still have trouble seeing how I influence patterns in my M. Maybe I'm being too black and white about mine versus her issues.

CL

My W announced yesterday that she intends to quit her PT job, because she thinks it is too toxic an environment for her. I admit my initial reaction was thinking about the impact on finances, and her past behavior with unemployment, which came across as unsupportive. I'll have to adapt to this situation. My role will be supportive, but also not allowing her to shut-down (I don't think she will), and keep her moving forward. She said she intends to attend a weekly job-hunting group. I'll have to get on the same page as her, as she has been thinking about this for some time.

CL

My W appreiciated my email message of support to leave her job if-needed. She let me know that she plans on replacing it with something part-time, while she looks for a good fit job. I reminded her that a PT job would give us disposable income for fun activities and unexpected expenses. I intend to hold her accountable for moving forward, and will let her go at her own pace.

The dance competition is nine days away. There are still a few wrinkles in the Foxtrot routine. The Rumba is looking pretty good. We have a lesson tonight, so I hope he gives some encouragement. I seem to be the one leading this project. I remind myself to focus on my part in the process, so insist on two nights per week of partner practice, and have begun practicing on my own in the mornings before work. This project is an opportunity to express myself in the R, and bring my style to our dance partnership. It's an opportunity to grow and explore.

CL

I'm working thru "The Dance of Intimacy" by Harriet Lerner. Several of her comments have resonated with me. She talks about the importance of being strong, knowing who you are, knowing what your values are, and living by them, and participating in all aspects of a R, including the painful parts. She says that one of the most important ways to fix a R problem is to have a stronger presence in it.

In the past, I can see my pattern as being intentional about my career, but letting my W mostly drive the R. She was as clueless as I was, so no wonder we had problems. The intimacy wasn't there, but for both of us, it was probably more than we were used to experiencing. I would avoid problems, and was overly influenced by her anger and blaming, when I should have moved more into it to see what was going on.

I read books daily (Tibetan Buddhism, psychology) to work on my attitude. I am more clear on the ways I react to problems in my life and R in unhelpful ways that perpetuate problems for myself and my W.

I believe the dance competition next week is sign of my putting my voice into the dance R. In the past, the dancing was strictly Salsa, and I was along for the ride. I'm driving this project, and thanks to me, we go to ballroom dances, entered in a competition, and work on a diversity of dances. When the competition is over, I'm going to suggest to my W that we work on two dance--my choice and her choice.

She hasn't gotten paid for her PT job in several weeks, and money is getting tight again. I'm going to let her know that I'm cutting the dog's daycare to two days, until our cash flow is improved (she gets paid or finds a new job). Talking about and working thru problems together is also a form of intimacy.

I'm going to be starting next week a book called "Hold Me Tight." It's about the different types of conversations a couple needs to have to stay or be more connected. It's written by Sue Johnson, a psychologist who specializes in marital therapy.

CL

Originally Posted By: Concerned_Listener

I'm going to be starting next week a book called "Hold Me Tight." It's about the different types of conversations a couple needs to have to stay or be more connected. It's written by Sue Johnson, a psychologist who specializes in marital therapy.

Hi CL, glad to hear you've been gaining some insight from The Dance of Intimacy. I was surprised to see you're also going to be reading 'Hold Me Tight'. That was one of the first books my IC recommended I read and I thought it was excellent as well.

Originally Posted By: Concerned_Listener

Talking about and working thru problems together is also a form of intimacy.

Amen to that. I agree. I think it's the ultimate form, and the one where most of us falter. Which is sad because I think it can bring us more intimacy than any other thing we do.

I admire your tenacity and courage in the work you're doing. Take care. FMV.

Good CL-

Life got away from me this week with work! Gotta love 14 hour days and meetings every spare moment!!

Anyway, those are good books and I'm glad you found them.

I just wanted to add, that whether we see it or not, both people in the relationship are responsible for the patterns. One person takes action and the other reacts to that, back and forth, back and forth. And it's usually very subtle.

My H for example would ask where do you want to go for dinner? I"d reply Olive Garden, he'd say "I"m not in the mood for pasta, how about we go to Red Robin". He would ask, I'd reply, he'd never want to eat that, and suggest something else. Years of this.

Well, why bother asking if you're always going to throw out my suggestion? Right? He thought he was having a conversation about where to go, and he never realized we always ate where he wanted. I gave up making suggestions and would just reply with I don't care, or I don't know.

Another example is when we would be out shopping and I'd say- Oh that would be great in the kitchen and he'd say, ya but do we really need it? Then a week later go get a new golf club (really, if you have a driver, do you need another????)

Me always being the listener and the smoother over, just let stuff side until I was so miserable I kicked him out.

3 years back together and his old habits are coming back. But last night I spoke up for myself!!! Ya.

Bottom line is my H never new how his words affected me, or were beginning to affect us. Until one day while we were separated and he asked me to dinner and I replied it really didn't matter what I said because he wouldn't want to go there and we'd end up going where he wanted anyway so why bother voicing an opinion when I'd just be discounted. He was stunned.

He does it with movies, vacations, hotels, and even my job now (he keeps trying to get me to teach middle school like him when I'm perfectly happy in elementary school and have been for 15 years)

He thinks he's being helpful and helping me to "be a better me" when in reality all I end up feeling is horrible, unhappy, unvalidated, unsupported, and hopeless.

Not real good for intamacy!!

just rambles to think about I guess.

Sox

Originally Posted By: Soxfan2008

I just wanted to add, that whether we see it or not, both people in the relationship are responsible for the patterns. One person takes action and the other reacts to that, back and forth, back and forth. And it's usually very subtle.

Bottom line is my H never new how his words affected me, or were beginning to affect us.

Sox

This is true and important to remember, how our words and moods affect the other person, and how we influence patterns in the R. I can recall many times when my W would ask for suggestions regarding restaurants, and how I would dismiss her suggestions. I was under the false impression, that she should tolerate my comments and moods, no matter what. She still says that I can be abrupt (impatient), I had no idea I had such a terrible attitude and communicated so poorly before. I blamed her for my lack of skill and effort.

I let her know that I didn't have the money for the dog's daycare. I knew it would stress her out, but I didn't think I should bear the problem myself. I proposed scaling back his daycare to two days per week until she gets some additonal cash flow beyond the cooking job. She insisted on keeping the dog in daycare three days per week, and will cover the expense.

The dance competition is this weekend. My W attended a make-up workshop over the weekend, and afterwards went to a high-end make-up store to purchase make-up. I must admit it does look good on her. She's procrastinated on putting together two costumes. I've let it be her problem. She's been getting assistance and offers to borrow clothing from classmates at the studio. The most important thing is the dance preparation, and I think we're ready and will do fine. Maybe some luck will go our way, and we'll win at least one event. I expect her to be stressed the day of the competition, so I'll need to make sure I'm in partner mode, and don't forget I'm not there to strictly enjoy myself, and give her some latitiude as this is our first experience competing as a couple. This has been my project from the beginning, so I need to take a leadership role and be attuned to her experience.

CL

I'm working thru Hold Me Tight by Susan Johnson. She specializes in Emotionally Focused Couple Therapy. She bases this approach on Attachment Theory of John Bowlby, which speaks to the need for connection as fundamental in each of us. She believes that marital problems are when partners in a M are acting-out their fears regarding disconnection. Vulnerable feelings are communicated poorly. The antidote is that we have to be emotionally responsive to our partners.

This will require an act of courage for those of us in Piecing, who have been thru trauma in our M. The natural response is to protect oneself. It has been mentioned to me on my thread that I seem guarded. I've increased the connectiion with my W, but haven't always been emotionally responsive, and certainly have been guarded. I think this is the direction I'm going to need to move into. I have to remember that my W is trying to connect, and trust me when she's angry, or sharp. I'l keep reading,and see what specific suggestons she has.

CL

CL, your thread title caught my eye and I've been lurking. Good luck at your competition, hope you do well and knock their socks off!

Originally Posted By: WCW

Good luck at your competition, hope you do well and knock their socks off!

WCW,
Thanks for the best wishes. My goal is to do well enough so that my W feels safe with me out on the floor. If I make a mistake, I will have to cover it well, recover quickly, and improvise. The routines are only a minute and a half long, thank goodness. We have to do two dances, three times each.

My W finally seems to be getting energized about this. She got her hair done yesterday, bought some dance shoes, got her nails done. She will get a spray tan today as her skin is fair. An instructor at the studio lent her a ballroom gown, which fortunately fit. She still has to decide on a Latin gown, which she should have in her possession.

I'm so excited about participating in this event, and am grateful that my W has agreed to do this.

CL

Break a leg, CL! I hope it goes very well for you!

Starsky

Starsky,
Thanks for the best wishes. I thought the dances went well. We were nearly perfect with all three Rumba dances, and the three Foxtrot dances were good (it's a newer dance for us). Our instructors were proud of us. We won first place in six dances. I made the mistake of not taking the day off prior to the competition, so we didn't get to sleep until 1AM, and had to dance at 945AM. I'll make it a three day weekend next time. My W organized a birthday party for me. Members of our studio gathered afterwards at a bar, and sang a birthday wish for me. It was a time of connection and developing friendships, throughout the day.

It's more work for the woman to participate in these events. My focus is on the dance. She has to put a lot of time into make-up and dress. My W has little experience with make-up. She'll probably hire a make-up artist next time, until she gets more skilled at it.

I'm thinking of doing this twice per year. It forces one to commit to learning a dance well. Most people danced more dances during the event than we did (6). I don't want to push my W too hard with this, as it's an adjustment for both of us.

I like what I'm reading so far with "Hold Me Tight." The author places high priority on intimacy and attachment, and believes disruptions in it are the root of marital problems. She believes one has to work in layers, starting with working thru defensiveness and a partner's anger, withdrawal, or distance, by being emotionally responsive.

CL

Way to go, CL!!! I knew you guys would nail it.

You should be rightfully proud of your accomplishment . . . in the face of some difficult odds at times, too.

Starsky

Congrats on doing so well! all that practice paid off! Did your W enjoy the competition?
Happy Birthday too!

WCW,
She is talking about a next time, but acknowledges that she isn't a competitive person, so it probably was a mix for her. I think she enjoyed the social connection. The only things she wants different next time are for me to take the day off of work the day before the competition, and for her to hire a make-up artist to assist her with this.

She likes to dance, likes our instructor, likes our studio, and wants to get better. She agrees with me that competing gives us structure and accountability to practice and get better, so agrees with my suggestion of two competitions per year.

CL

My W quit her part-time job this week. I read her letter of resignation, and support her decision. She has an unreasonable boss, who keeps her in the margins while he makes reckless decisions. Her plan is to attend a weekly job-hunting support group, and obtain another part-time job while she pursues something full-time. I took the night off from my social dancing to go to dinner with her, so she could process her decision.

I'm working with an instructor from the studio to recruit students to attend a ballroom dance in March. We have one table so far. My agenda is to meet my needs to do social ballroom dancing, and to create a social environment for my W so that she can enjoy herself more at these events. It doesn't work well when I go alone to these events with my W. She's ready to leave after a 1/2 hour.

I've decided that since I'm half of the dance partnership my goals should be incorporated. This includes learning and practicing dances that are important to me, attending two competitions per year to give us accountability and structure and diversify our dance experience, and attend ballroom social dancing by myself or with my W as part of a group.

I'm reading the chapter in Hold Me Tight where the author talks about breaking harmful communication patterns, which she calls Demon Dialogues. The first step is for a couple to recognize when they are doing it. The one pattern I recognize is where my W is sharp with me and I feel incompetent an devalued as a H, so become silent and withdraw, which leads to disconnection.

One way for me to break this pattern, is to experiment with staying with the dance, investigate what's bothering her, listen to it, and validate it. This is tough to do, after one has been criticized, but the criticize-withdraw dance has to be broken. The author would believe that my W strikes out because she is feeling disconnected and is trying to get a response from me. Ideally couples would work on this together, but I'll start on my own, and see what happens.

CL

One of the other Demon Dialogues mentioned in the book Hold Me Tight is the Deep Freeze. I call it the Winter of Our Discontent, after the novel. It follow a period of one or both of the other two Demon Dialogues, which I call Two Attorneys or Running for Cover. After awhile, the barker gets tired of trying to get a response, distances, herself and puts her energy into something else. The turtle, is happy to have peace and quiet. The M becomes an electric fence, and eggshell walking happens, where conflctual areas are avoided. This is the scenario of my M. I have sadness as I think of the amount of time spent in the season of Winter in my M.

The way out of these patterns is to recognize when it's happening, and in my case listen to and validate my W, when she's complaining, and be more willing to share what's on my mind, particularly with regards to what's going on in the R.
I'll need to work on breaking the pattern of withdrawal and protection, and staying with conflict.

CL

Morning CL,
It's been interesting to read your posts, and hear your ideas on Hold Me Tight. It's been a while since I've read it, so it's been helpful to review your comments. I know what you mean about the electric fence and eggshell walking, where conflict is avoided. Have had a few instances of that again this week. It's interesting to remember that withdrawal is also a form of protection. (Which is what I do, almost, what I 'am') And did a splendid example of it this morning. It's incredibly tiring and defeating, to feel myself back there again and again, still lacking the courage from time to time, to use my voice and say what needs to be said. Let me know how you're making out with it, if you're having any luck with it.

Originally Posted By: Concerned_Listener

The way out of these patterns is to recognize when it's happening, and in my case listen to and validate my W, when she's complaining, and be more willing to share what's on my mind, particularly with regards to what's going on in the R.
I'll need to work on breaking the pattern of withdrawal and protection, and staying with conflict.

CL

I dunno, CL -- this still sounds like more eggshell-walking to me.

Starsky

Originally Posted By: FindingMyVoice

Morning CL,
Let me know how you're making out with it, if you're having any luck with it.

FMV,
It's going to take some conscious effort to break my defensive patterns, but I'm going to work on it. I'm going to hang in there with conflict, instead of withdrawing and increase my level of self-diclosure. Sharing vulnerabilities will be a larger step.

CL

Starsky,
How does it sound like egg-shell walking to you? The point I'm making here is staying with conflict, and getting beyond the surface anger.

CL

What the practice sections in Hold Me Tight ask me to do will be difficult. I've read the first three conversations. What you are asked to practice is to identify when you are participating in a Demon Dialogue with your spouse, be aware of how you are emotionally impacted by your partner's harsh words or distance, and share how it impacts you emotionally. The author's premise is that even distant, fighting couples want to connect, and can if they take the risk. This looks good on paper, but will be difficult to do in practice.

My responses are to withdraw or distance myself. These will be patterns I will need to change (180 in DB terms). I will need to hang in there with conflict, and when my W is critical or angry with me. My internal reaction is one of annoyance and anger, but to share that is participating in a nonconstructive dance. Sharing that I've been injured seems like too big a step to take. Maybe the next step is to slow down, and acknowledge my feelings to myself, instead of staying in emotional reactive mode.

My W has signed-up for a complimentary personal training session at our fitness center. She is between jobs and has time on her hands during the day. She is probably about 10-20 pounds overweight. She goes with me to group classes, but not to exeercise on her own. She is thinking about buying a package of personal training sessions to teach her how to exercise, and find a routine that works for her.

I want to return to the monthly Saturday night ballroom dances that I used to go to during my GAL phase. It hasn't gone well, when my W and I had gone together. I decided to invite a favorite classmate of hers to go with us this weekend. This way my W will have someone to talk to in between dances. This will take pressure off of me to dance every dance with her. I'll expect her to stay two hours. My hope is that she'll eventually become known in the ballroom community, and will enjoy herself. It's my dance partnership too. I like FMV's reminders about the importance of expressing our needs in the M.

CL

Good morning CL - great post. Sounds like you're doing some real tough, introspective work. Take time to be proud of yourself for that.

Originally Posted By: Concerned_Listener

My responses are to withdraw or distance myself. These will be patterns I will need to change (180 in DB terms). I will need to hang in there with conflict, and when my [Spouse] is critical or angry with me.

Sounds like we're in such similar places, CL. I agree, it's such a difficult pattern to change.

Originally Posted By: Concerned_Listener

My internal reaction is one of annoyance and anger, but to share that is participating in a nonconstructive dance. Sharing that I've been injured seems like too big a step to take. Maybe the next step is to slow down, and acknowledge my feelings to myself, instead of staying in emotional reactive mode.

I think that sounds very productive actually. My IC let me know that going from withdrawal, right into sharing hurt 'in the moment' is a HUGE step to take, and one so large that's it's actually unreasonable to expect of oneself. Instead, let yourself withdraw, think about what happened, and then revisit it with your spouse later, once emotions aren't so high. I guess this is a perfectly acceptable first step to deal with conflict when your normal pattern is withdrawal. The idea is that after some time, you'll begin being able to process all that quicker, and soon be able to do it 'in that moment'.

I found a great book that complements perfectly this process she suggested. It's an older one but excellent. It's called 'The Assertiveness Workbook' by Randy J. Paterson (PhD). It's got these excellent little forms at the back you can photocopy and print out, that you fill in with 1) The situation; 2) Your Response; 3) If it was Assertive, Passive or Passive/Aggresive; 3) Your feelings afterward; and 4) An alternative response. I've been using it this week and have found it very helpful. I've only found it on amazon, but at least it's available as a kindle edition for immediate download, too.

Be sure to keep posting your progress; I'll do the same. Hopefully one of these days we'll both be managing that conflict in the moment and finding our relationships healthier ones for it! Good for you for returning to your Sat night ballroom dances. Take care!

FMV.

Originally Posted By: Concerned_Listener

Starsky,
How does it sound like egg-shell walking to you? The point I'm making here is staying with conflict, and getting beyond the surface anger.

CL

Just an overall impression and feeling that oozes from your posts, CL. On the one hand, you are a smart, sensitive, introspective guy who seems to IDENTIFY the fact that you need to look out for your own interests, and draw your personal boundaries in your interactions with a sometimes-unpleasant wife, but I still feel you struggling to do so.

If I get a chance, I'll try to go upthread and look up some specific examples for you.

Any luck initiating/adding some affection to the mix?

Starsky

Originally Posted By: Starsky309

On the one hand, you are a smart, sensitive, introspective guy who seems to IDENTIFY the fact that you need to look out for your own interests, and draw your personal boundaries in your interactions with a sometimes-unpleasant wife, but I still feel you struggling to do so.

Any luck initiating/adding some affection to the mix?

Starsky

Starsky,
I cant' argue with you about your impressions--they are what they are, and serve as useful feedback to me. What I post and share are my struggles, so that is what you see. I feel like I'm getting better at expressing my needs, and taking action to get them met. I don't feel like the man in the story who moved a rock up a hill, only to have to do it again. I feel like I'm getting more skilled, and mentally stronger.

I think what it is that certain skills take time to develop, and it takes time to replace old habits with new ones. You're reminding me that I'm not there yet, and need to keep reading, and posting, and practicing.

CL

FMV,
I agree that, going from withdrawal to sharing is too big a step for now. I won't expect that of myself for now.

What I'm doing is identifying the feelings beyond annoyed and angry--such as disappointment and frustration. When I do that privately, I feel lighter. There's an honesty to it. I than feel the freedom to do what I want with it. If I were to speak about it, it would come from a grounded place. I'm also more able to see my W's actions and words for what they are--her struggles whether with herself or me.

What I'm doing now is trying to listen to her and understand what she's trying to communicate. It's still diffiuclt to be on the receiving end of criticism. I try to remember the premise of Hold Me Tight, that behind criticism is a partner who's trying to connect with you.

CL

catching up....again. I can't use the computer at work to check this website and don't have a working computer at home. Still thinking of you and wishing you well.

Originally Posted By: Concerned_Listener

I try to remember the premise of Hold Me Tight, that behind criticism is a partner who's trying to connect with you.

True, just wanting to be sure though, that you're establishing boundaries for how that criticism is being conveyed. I hope you're not tolerating any verbal abuse - name calling, rageful venting, insults, etc?

Reading the chapter on Forgiving Injuries in Hold Me Tight has been enlightening. The author states that one cannot have a healing conversation about past injuries until they are communicating on an intimate level about minor injuries on a regular basis. Distant couples do not heal. It is possible for couples to have some degree of connection without healing trauma, but not intimacy.

The author also frames relationship injuries as an inevitable part of a long-term relationship. I've been ashamed of the types of injuries and problems my M has endured. Maybe I'm being too hard on myself.

My W and I sleep together, but do not touch. The only touching we do is when we dance. My W sits at her computer desk to watch television, distant from me.

I'm percolating ideas of what I can do to change patterns that contribute to distance.

I'm reading a memoir called Grace and Grit by Ken Wilber, a psychologist who lost his wife to breast cancer. The theme of death has returned, as my W has persistent respiratory symptoms. I want to prepare myself for her death, as I think I'm going to live longer than her. She signed up for personal training at our fitness center. It starts next week.

She joined our local ballroom chapter, and intends on going to the monthly dances. She was uncomfortable at the ballroom dance on Saturday night. but stayed over two hours. Classmates from our studio sat together at the same table, which made the evening go much better. I cut the evening short for her, and took her out to dinner.

CL

Originally Posted By: Concerned_Listener

Originally Posted By: Starsky309

On the one hand, you are a smart, sensitive, introspective guy who seems to IDENTIFY the fact that you need to look out for your own interests, and draw your personal boundaries in your interactions with a sometimes-unpleasant wife, but I still feel you struggling to do so.

Any luck initiating/adding some affection to the mix?

Starsky

Starsky,
I cant' argue with you about your impressions--they are what they are, and serve as useful feedback to me. What I post and share are my struggles, so that is what you see. I feel like I'm getting better at expressing my needs, and taking action to get them met. I don't feel like the man in the story who moved a rock up a hill, only to have to do it again. I feel like I'm getting more skilled, and mentally stronger.

I think what it is that certain skills take time to develop, and it takes time to replace old habits with new ones. You're reminding me that I'm not there yet, and need to keep reading, and posting, and practicing.

CL

CL--you're on target.

Dbmod,
Thanks for the encouragement.

I agreed to go to a Salsa dance convention in Chicago with my W this weekend. The last time I went to one was in 2006. I was reluctant to go, as Salsa is a lively dance where musicality is emphasized over technique. Musicality and using my body with the music is an area I need to grow into.

The first night and day of the trip went well--dinner at an Italian restaurant, a full day of workshops. I bought a new pair of Latin shoes, which is an upgrade from what I have. I stayed up until 2AM listening to a very popular Salsa band from Columbia.

The trip began to unravel the next day, our travel day home. At her request, I bought my W breakfast at Mcdonald's. I'm used to her sleeping in till noon. She wanted me to wake her up for it. I made the mistake of letting her sleep in. She was also upset that I wasn't packed. I didn't want to make noise while she slept. She also was upset that we drove most of the trip home in the dark, when she's not able to read.

She was quite unpleasant on the way home--picking at everything that went wrong and making comments again about how she's envious of other spouses who make more money. She called her mother on the phone and was complaining to her. I lost my temper at that point. It was a long trip home.

I'm disappointed that the trip ended the way it did. I don't understand what happened. Is this really over an egg McMuffin? When my W speaks, I hear blaming and how I've failed her.

I will listen to what she has to say today, and will try to put more emphasis on listening than defending myself. I will not hide from her today, but be willing to process the weekend's events with her. I will privately and in conversation accept how I contributed to the miscommunication, and not insist that she do so likewise.

CL

Originally Posted By: Concerned_Listener

I will listen to what she has to say today, and will try to put more emphasis on listening than defending myself. I will not hide from her today, but be willing to process the weekend's events with her. I will privately and in conversation accept how I contributed to the miscommunication, and not insist that she do so likewise.

CL

CL,

Where is "expressing your needs" in all of that?

Your wife overreacted to your good intentions. I think you'd have more success if you learned how to draw stronger boundaries with her, rather than walking on eggs all of the time around her.

Remember the "boundaries" half of the "loving boundaries" we used to talk about, and in trying to better balance it between the two?

And no, this wasn't about the Egg McMuffin.

Starsky

Quote:

I will not hide from her today, but be willing to process the weekend's events with her.

GOOD! That is a step forward.

Have you ever bit back? I'm just wondering, not necessarily advocating, but what would happen, if you turned to her and said, "I did my best, next time get your own dam egg McMuffin, and quite your bitching while your at it!"

I say this because at times it seems like your wife is screaming for a man to step up and meet her challenges. Like she needs a man who can put her in her place a little. Might sound crazy but I really wonder if you got neanderthal on her, would she not be purring like a kitten 15 minutes later. It might even take her a day to process what just happened because of the shock but when the dust settled, might she say, THAT is the man I have been waiting for?

Having read your situation for a few years now, it seems your wife picks because she can. She wants a reaction but never gets it and a pattern has developed where she pushes you around. I wonder if she would prefer NOT to be able to push you around but there is now such a deep pattern that only something drastic can break it.

There is an anecdote in the Divorce Busting book about the guy who finally put his foot down and hard. His wife fell in line fast. Food for thought anyway. As always keep up the good work.

Starsky,
Thinking in terms of setting boundaries with my W can be overwhelming. I would be reacting to every act of poor behavior she does. I don't want to enter "her world" because she's not in a good place at this time, but is trying to climb out of it.

Boundaries are important, but I want my mindset to go beyond that. I don't want to police every annoying word or phrase or mood. I don't want to put my energy there.

CL

DNO,
My W continued her venting into the next day, our cooking day together. I hung in there with her and allowed her to vent. I worked at not defending myself, and disagreed with her when she accused me of lying or being passive-aggressive. She held tight onto her viewpoints. I xplained my behavior and reactions to her telling her how I was feeling at the time. She didn't acknowledge my viewpoints, but it felt right to handle a difficult conversation in a nonreactive manner, that didn't add further injury.

She finally disclosed that her feelings were hurt that people were being indifferent to her at the dance convention. She had hopes of connecting to people. In my opinion, these people didn't treat us any different than they do in our hometown. It took her a day to disclose this to me. I didn't know. She never gave me a chance to help her with this until a day later. She was looking for kindness from me, but instead saw me as another person rejecting her and disappointing her.

There was a time during the day, when the venting was repeating itself. I excused myself, and took the dog for a walk.

CL

Originally Posted By: Concerned_Listener

Starsky,
Thinking in terms of setting boundaries with my W can be overwhelming. I would be reacting to every act of poor behavior she does. I don't want to enter "her world" because she's not in a good place at this time, but is trying to climb out of it.

Boundaries are important, but I want my mindset to go beyond that. I don't want to police every annoying word or phrase or mood. I don't want to put my energy there.

CL

Suit yourself, CL. But I'd recommend that you consider two things:

1. It's not working your way -- her boorish behavior continues; and

2. With effective boundary-setting (and -enforcement), you don't HAVE to do it all of the time. The enforcement corrects the behavior (sometimes doesn't end it COMPLETELY, but probably 90% of it).

Are walking on these egg shells constantly any way to go thru a marriage . . . or a life?

You don't need to "go Neanderthal," but a simple-but-firm "You know, I was trying to be kind, to let you sleep in. I really don't appreciate you biting my head off. Next time, maybe you can just get your own Egg McMuffin. I'm going to go grab a shower, and then we'll get going."

Or something similar.

Women want a man that can call them on their b.s. sometimes. It's healthy for BOTH sexes to do that for each other from time to time. By constantly appeasing her and supplicating, you are KILLING her attraction to you, in my opinion.

Starsky

Originally Posted By: Concerned_Listener

There was a time during the day, when the venting was repeating itself. I excused myself, and took the dog for a walk.

This is good. Do you tell her WHY when you do this? Make sure you do. Say something like "I'm sorry, but I don't need to be b*tched at. If you're going to talk to me so disrespectfully, I'm just going to take the dog for a walk." And then do so.

Starsky

Originally Posted By: Concerned_Listener

She finally disclosed that her feelings were hurt that people were being indifferent to her at the dance convention. She had hopes of connecting to people. ...

It took her a day to disclose this to me. I didn't know. She never gave me a chance to help her with this until a day later. She was looking for kindness from me, but instead saw me as another person rejecting her and disappointing her.

Hi CL, it's been a while since I posted on your thread but I've been reading along and cheering on your progress.

I just had a thought about this I wanted to share with you. It's possible that it took her so long to disclose that to you because she didn't even know that there was something underneath her anger and venting. I used to do that a lot. First came the anger, and only then could I understand and feel the pain that beneath it.

So I think it's a definite good sign that she did finally reveal her true fears and insecurities about the dance convention to you, even if it was a day late. That's how my process went too. It took me a while before I could identify the hurt and distorted self-beliefs that were underlying my anger. Sometimes it took a day or two. But the important thing is, is that she's seeing and sharing what was underneath it.

How did she end up feeling after she finally revealed her hurts to you? Hopefully, she found it to be a positive experience and relieved some of her fear and pain. If so, I bet that 'delay' will grow shorter and shorter as she continues to open up.

Good for you for excusing yourself and taking the dog for a walk!

FMV.

Originally Posted By: FindingMyVoice

Sometimes it took a day or two. But the important thing is, is that she's seeing and sharing what was underneath it.

How did she end up feeling after she finally revealed her hurts to you? Hopefully, she found it to be a positive experience and relieved some of her fear and pain. If so, I bet that 'delay' will grow shorter and shorter as she continues to open up.

FMV,
I think she felt better. I shared with her my impressions from what I observed going on with people there. I think it helped her to see that people were behaving certain ways in general, and that there was more going on than she realized.

We went to a dance class on Monday night. Last night she didn't want to go to her Pilates class. We usually practice dancing afterwards, so I stayed home and made a practice date with her, that went well. We practiced for 45 minutes, longer than our usual 1/2 hour.

I failed to mention that on Sunday when she was venting, she threatened to stop dancing with me and go her separate way again socially. I told her that was not acceptable, and that I would not want to be married any further if she took that course again.

As Starsky suggests, it is important to be mindful of my needs, and to not become invisible or overly accommodating. I am doing that by making sure we attend the studio, dance classes and ballroom events that I want. On the other hand, I think trying to control her picking and bad moods will be futile and missing the emotional elements of what's happening. I'm going to stay with the Hold Me Tight approach for healing injuries for now. DNO thinks that my W is looking for me to rise to the challenge of staying with her. I think staying with her emotional storms in a calm, listening yet sharing manner is a way of rising to the challenge. We'll stay the course and see.

CL

Originally Posted By: Concerned_Listener

DNO thinks that my W is looking for me to rise to the challenge of staying with her. I think staying with her emotional storms in a calm, listening yet sharing manner is a way of rising to the challenge. We'll stay the course and see.

CL

CL,

Are you sure you don't just believe that because it's easier for you to do?

At best, you're mindreading her here. At worst, you're shying from the tougher challenge.

Starsky

Originally Posted By: Starsky309

You don't need to "go Neanderthal," but a simple-but-firm "You know, I was trying to be kind, to let you sleep in. I really don't appreciate you biting my head off. Next time, maybe you can just get your own Egg McMuffin. I'm going to go grab a shower, and then we'll get going."

Starsky

I don't want to dismiss what you're saying, but saying that to my W when she is escalated is not going to deescalate her. The only thing I can do is end the conversation and leave if I have to. Taking the dog for a walk is a good option. She calmed down when I did it the last time. If that doesn't work , I can take the dog to the dog park. There may be nights I'll have to sleep in a hotel, or leave a dinner party, or take a break from a dance venue.

CL

Not every boundary enforced is meant to de-escalate the short-term. But done correctly, I believe it can very much improve your interactions with her in the long-term.

Sometimes one must take the short-term hit for the longer-term gain. Us conflict-avoiders DETEST that notion (I know -- I'm a world-class confict avoider!), but it's the truth nonetheless.

Starsky

Quote:

Not every boundary enforced is meant to de-escalate the short-term

This is a very good point that, CL, I think you are missing. I would go so far as to say enforcing boundaries has nothing to do with de-escalating anything. It has to do with teaching people how to treat you. I think if you did that, your wife would respect you far more, be more attracted to you and treat you better.

While going neanderthal may not be necessary, my point was you stand up. She can rant, she can threaten, hey babe, fine with me. I am standing strong in front of you and I'm not cowering away. I refuse to be spoken to disrespectfully. I REFUSE. You do not swallow her BS and then send her an email the next day telling her she needs to consider conducting herself differently. You want to say, hold up sister, you will be respectful. If you are not able to do that, you know were to find me when you are.

Quote:

There may be nights I'll have to sleep in a hotel, or leave a dinner party, or take a break from a dance venue.

This is shrinking away from the conflict. Conflict in and of itself is not bad. It's how you deal with it that can be sticky. I really think you have done so well in most other areas. Learning to stand your ground in a powerful, self respecting fashion is what appears to be the final piece of the puzzle missing for you. You seem a thoughtful, caring, compassionate, loving man. You do not seem a powerful, self assured man. I really thing that is what she wants.

When I say rise to the challenge. I did not mean the challenge of being with her. I meant the challenge of her intimidation, or getting her own way. She pushes you around. I think she wants to push and feel a man standing solid in front of her that she can't brush aside because you are to strong. That is what she is waiting for. It IS possible to be thoughtful, caring, compassionate, and loving, yet at the same time also be powerful, self assured.

Originally Posted By: DownNotOut...yet

Quote:

Not every boundary enforced is meant to de-escalate the short-term

This is a very good point that, CL, I think you are missing. I would go so far as to say enforcing boundaries has nothing to do with de-escalating anything. It has to do with teaching people how to treat you. I think if you did that, your wife would respect you far more, be more attracted to you and treat you better.

While going neanderthal may not be necessary, my point was you stand up. She can rant, she can threaten, hey babe, fine with me. I am standing strong in front of you and I'm not cowering away. I refuse to be spoken to disrespectfully. I REFUSE. You do not swallow her BS and then send her an email the next day telling her she needs to consider conducting herself differently. You want to say, hold up sister, you will be respectful. If you are not able to do that, you know were to find me when you are.

Quote:

There may be nights I'll have to sleep in a hotel, or leave a dinner party, or take a break from a dance venue.

This is shrinking away from the conflict. Conflict in and of itself is not bad. It's how you deal with it that can be sticky. I really think you have done so well in most other areas. Learning to stand your ground in a powerful, self respecting fashion is what appears to be the final piece of the puzzle missing for you. You seem a thoughtful, caring, compassionate, loving man. You do not seem a powerful, self assured man. I really thing that is what she wants.

When I say rise to the challenge. I did not mean the challenge of being with her. I meant the challenge of her intimidation, or getting her own way. She pushes you around. I think she wants to push and feel a man standing solid in front of her that she can't brush aside because you are to strong. That is what she is waiting for. It IS possible to be thoughtful, caring, compassionate, and loving, yet at the same time also be powerful, self assured.

DNO, you said it far better than I could have. Amen.

Starsky

Originally Posted By: Starsky309

CL,

Are you sure you don't just believe that because it's easier for you to do?

There's no easy way to deal with her ranting. I'll stay with you and hear your ideas.

CL

Originally Posted By: Starsky309

Not every boundary enforced is meant to de-escalate the short-term. But done correctly, I believe it can very much improve your interactions with her in the long-term.

I'm listening. What is the correct way?

CL

Originally Posted By: DownNotOut...yet

While going neanderthal may not be necessary, my point was you stand up. She can rant, she can threaten, hey babe, fine with me. I am standing strong in front of you and I'm not cowering away. I refuse to be spoken to disrespectfully. I REFUSE. You do not swallow her BS and then send her an email the next day telling her she needs to consider conducting herself differently. You want to say, hold up sister, you will be respectful. If you are not able to do that, you know were to find me when you are.

DNO,
Are you suggesting I overpower her voice and back her down? It sounds like someting a police officer would do. What am I supposed to do if she's disrespectful in public?

I don't think she generally pushes me around. The problem is how to handle her rants, when she's unglued, and her mind and mouth are racing. I haven't tried an overpower her approach, so I don't know how it would work.

I hear what you and Starsky are saying, but I don't have much faith in it, at this time. I don't see words or tone having much influence at controlling, or deescalating her. The only option I see is to remove myself from her presence for a period of time.

CL

Originally Posted By: Concerned_Listener

Originally Posted By: Starsky309

Not every boundary enforced is meant to de-escalate the short-term. But done correctly, I believe it can very much improve your interactions with her in the long-term.

I'm listening. What is the correct way?

CL

I suggested it, above.

Originally Posted By: Concerned_Listener

Originally Posted By: DownNotOut...yet

While going neanderthal may not be necessary, my point was you stand up. She can rant, she can threaten, hey babe, fine with me. I am standing strong in front of you and I'm not cowering away. I refuse to be spoken to disrespectfully. I REFUSE. You do not swallow her BS and then send her an email the next day telling her she needs to consider conducting herself differently. You want to say, hold up sister, you will be respectful. If you are not able to do that, you know were to find me when you are.

DNO,
Are you suggesting I overpower her voice and back her down? It sounds like someting a police officer would do. What am I supposed to do if she's disrespectful in public?

I don't think she generally pushes me around. The problem is how to handle her rants, when she's unglued, and her mind and mouth are racing. I haven't tried an overpower her approach, so I don't know how it would work.

I hear what you and Starsky are saying, but I don't have much faith in it, at this time. I don't see words or tone having much influence at controlling, or deescalating her. The only option I see is to remove myself from her presence for a period of time.

CL

CL,

You say you're listening, and yet you're not. A better path has been suggested to you, repeatedly, and yet you've rejected it. If your way is working, then that's fine. From my perspective, I don't see that it is, and you really have nothing to lose from trying a different approach.

Starsky

Starsky

Originally Posted By: DownNotOut...yet

Quote:

Not every boundary enforced is meant to de-escalate the short-term

This is a very good point that, CL, I think you are missing. I would go so far as to say enforcing boundaries has nothing to do with de-escalating anything. It has to do with teaching people how to treat you. I think if you did that, your wife would respect you far more, be more attracted to you and treat you better.

While going neanderthal may not be necessary, my point was you stand up. She can rant, she can threaten, hey babe, fine with me. I am standing strong in front of you and I'm not cowering away. I refuse to be spoken to disrespectfully. I REFUSE. You do not swallow her BS and then send her an email the next day telling her she needs to consider conducting herself differently. You want to say, hold up sister, you will be respectful. If you are not able to do that, you know were to find me when you are.

Quote:

There may be nights I'll have to sleep in a hotel, or leave a dinner party, or take a break from a dance venue.

This is shrinking away from the conflict. Conflict in and of itself is not bad. It's how you deal with it that can be sticky. I really think you have done so well in most other areas. Learning to stand your ground in a powerful, self respecting fashion is what appears to be the final piece of the puzzle missing for you. You seem a thoughtful, caring, compassionate, loving man. You do not seem a powerful, self assured man. I really thing that is what she wants.

When I say rise to the challenge. I did not mean the challenge of being with her. I meant the challenge of her intimidation, or getting her own way. She pushes you around. I think she wants to push and feel a man standing solid in front of her that she can't brush aside because you are to strong. That is what she is waiting for. It IS possible to be thoughtful, caring, compassionate, and loving, yet at the same time also be powerful, self assured.

Please listen to DNO. He knows what he's talking about.

I rarely post here anymore but I thought it might help you to hear from a woman who thinks this is spot on in your situation.

>>Ann!!! How are you? Drop me a line on FB. Hope you are well.<<

CL, please do not take anything I tell going forward as argumentative. My written tone some times comes off bad. I'm in your corner.

OK, you are not trying overpowering her voice and back her down per-se. You are simply from this point forward absolutely, positively 100% refusing to be intimidated and bullied by her. Big difference.

Even if we were talking about overpowering her voice and backing her down; one of the MWD tenets is experiment. You might give it a try and see what happens. Let's just say you did overpower her voice? What if you grabbed a lamp and threw it trough a window and screamed into her face with spit flying out of your teeth??? Do you know? Have you tried? You seem terrified of this woman. She seems to know it. IF you turned the tide (yes this is an extreme example), what might happen? Has she ever, once, for a millisecond been scared of you (not physically just scared of by the fact of knowing she is not in control)? How is it she was not fearing for her life when you came out your room to find her with that young guy? Why was the young guy not crying and running for the door? In most other houses there would be body parts flying.

This is extreme but it paints a picture. Minus the body parts stuff, it might be worth trying once with conviction and see what happens. Whether you can see it your not, your current, noble path is largely cheeseless.

NOW, what I really meant in my posts above is when she rants, simply tell her, the conversation if over and will resume when she addresses you calmly and respectfully (That is a boundary). Sit down, pull out your newspaper and start reading. DO NOT leave the room, that is retreat. Do not let her re-engage you until she is calm and respectful.

Often you speak of controlling, you are not controlling and in the however many years I've been with you, you have never been controlling so don't worry about it. The only the thing you need to control is how she treats you.

If I showed up at your house and talked to you and treated you the way your wife does, would you allow it? I would expect you would sock me in the eye or minimally throw me out. You would not allow me to treat you that way. She has no special rights to treat you poorly nor to behave poorly.

Why do you speak constantly of de-escalating. What you describe often sounds like old fashion temper tantrums on your wife's part. Let her have her tantrum. It is far more loving to lead her to see SHE has to deal with her issues. You trying to calm her only teaches her she gets results with her behavior. What if she were 7 instead of 51? You would let her stomp and scream and complain, no sweat off your back. De-escalating is just another way she has pushed you around and/or manipulated you. She gets short term satisfaction of "winning", you get peace, but neither is the healthy change you need. This de-escaltion stuff is part of the cycle.

Again, I go on and on about a powerful, strong, assertive man. That is not police tactics. It is nature. Watch the discovery channel. Woman choose a powerful man. He represents the best genes. He represents protection, and security. If she can bully you. How can you offer her protection against a someone who can bully her?

When you do finally stand up to your wife. I am pretty sure she will lose her mind. She will probably escalate. She may try to test you more. If you remain calm and powerful through it. I think you see the will change her tune entirely.

Woman want strong virile men. If not, all the 5'2" guys still living in their mom's basements would be getting all the girls.