She said she'll try to work on the marriage...

Kent said I should start my own thread, so here goes.

I'm a lot excited and a little scared to be posting here. This section of the board is one I've always aspired to be part of, and it's been a tough road getting here. After lots of up and down, back and forth, talk of and to lawyers and filing, OM that wouldn't go away, lots of snooping on my part... the whole nine yards, we've reached a point where she's willing to "work on our marriage". The details of how we got to this point are somewhere on Newcomers, and are largely unimportant except for a couple of points:
First, HOW we got to the point of trying to reconcile was through a horrendous OR talk that resulted in me spilling a lot of stuff that I've not said in the interest of "good DBing"... By that, I mean I've been doing the detachment thing, the no OR talk thing, the give her space thing. She told me that she read it as lack of interest and "permission" for her to carry on her affair, and move on with her new single lifestyle. She said she had no idea I felt as strongly for the marriage as I did (but she was an alien, and lies). The 180 in our situation, it seems is MORE OR!!! Tho, in this new phase, it does seem less is more. Who knows?
Second, after that fight, she said she'd give us 3 months to work on the marriage, she'd stop seeing OM, and she agree to counciling.
Third point, I had once said one of my main conditions for even beginning to consider granting her a divorce was that she make the effort to work on our marriage and only if it then proved unworkable would I condider ending it. I'm not convinced that this "attempt" to work on our marriage is genuine, and not a ploy with an agenda to "prove to me" that this is over. I'm now convinced that the OM isn't just "biding his time" for three months, and that she'll not pull the plug after 3 months. I laid it out in http://66.111.66.234/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=24&t=004355 This new phase started on Oct 4, so we are about 32 days into the 3 months...

Anyway, we've been to 3 C session. Although I've asked a couple of times now, both in and out of C sessions, I still don't know W's definition of "working on our marriage". I've expressed that I feel we need to make measurable goals to evaluate that, and I expressed concern about the feeling that "3 months" was a deadline, not a working period. So far, she's agreed that both those are reasonable concerns... we are working on some goals in C, and she's agreed that 3 months is a flexible time frame, not a drop dead date.

On the positives, she's now told me that she's stopped seeing OM, and she's only had phone contact with him a couple of times. She said he's under "strict orders" not to call or email her. That term, "strict orders" bugs me, because is sounds like agreement, and conspiratorial, but my mind is a mess right now. We are getting along generally well. She never moved out of house, but did move out of Bedroom in late August. The other day, she slept in our bed while we had a houseguest (she's been in the guestroom). Tonight, we both watched the World Series in "her place". Then good-night, and I'm typing this before I go to bed. Things seem to be getting better, closer, at least for the past couple of days.

I guess I don't have much more to say right now, I just wanted to open this door. I read all of JJ's, ALTL, Rudi, Kent, and LeeP's threads here, and they've given me so much a sense of peace that was missing before. I (probably like most of you) thought that once I got her to work, and then got her to a marriage C that it would be all down-hill from there. I had no idea that this phase can be even more stressful than when she was actively, openly with the OM and talking divorce and lawyers in every other conversation. Reading you stuff has been so grounding.

I, like Kent, took a long time off, and pretty much avoided the boards for a while. But in the past week or so, I've gotten so much from them, especially here. I like the pace of this area. I like the more "journaling" format it seems to have taken on. I think I'll stick around. Thanks so much for the support you've already given me.

[ November 05, 2001: Message edited by: Zebra ]

Z,
Sorry about the advice you got to not talk to your W during the A and the bomb. Dimness or darkness is suppose to be reserved for two reasons. 1) The walked on spouse loses a grip(as we all do) and needs to spend time finding a centered position. 2) The WAS states that she is not interested in hearing any OR talk. Neither is a case for perpetual dark.

I did not use any darkness during my ordeal. I did use varying degrees of dim to avoid all unecessary and counterproductive OR conversations. I had to experiment to find out when the time was right for OR.

Your right in that your W may be B.S'ing you. But then, why would she need to. She could have just left. I suggest you give up on that obsession and do a little "acting as-if" she is genuine. Reach down deep inside and give-up on OM as well. Your focus needs to be on the R and yourself.

If OM won't go away, there will be a time to deal with him. This is not that time. This is your time. She is with you.

This is not a time to be gun shy. You need to try new things to find "what works". Three months is a lotta opportunity to implement some meaningful changes.

If you get the opportunity during a C session, ask W what would be the first sign, to her, that things were improving. I'll bet she can rattle off a few. Don't get hung up on long term goals right now. W does not want to hear that kinda crap. Stick to short term stuff. My motto used to be "One day at a time".

Kent

Hey Z!

You're absolutely right about opening up being a 180 in some situations. It sure was with mine. I kept too much inside of myself and never really opened up to my W. Kinda sucked things in and let them fester, dealt with them on my own, which was bad for the R. My W works pretty strongly off of her feelings, so I've been learning how to "speak to her in her own language". In the process, she's learned to listen to and to trust my "logic" a lot more. A win-win situation all around. It's a slow process, but well worth the efforts. The big trick in this was learning how to talk, and how to listen, less defensively. The OR talks have become more of a learning experience instead of a battle of wills.

Kent's right about the acting-as-if it's gonna work, and believing that she's sincere. Remember the self-fulfilling prophecy rule. Don't expect everything she does to be perfect towards the mending the R. It ain't gonna be. Learn to catch her doing things right, and appreciate them to her out loud. Keep your goals small and achievable, and it'll be amazing to you how the small "goods" can snowball into bigger, better things.

I tend to shudder when I hear people talk about "working on their marriage". It's much better to work on your relationship as friends who'll be spending the rest of their lives together. The marriage thing can be a bit overwhelming at this time, and you don't want to scare her away with too many expectations. As Kent said, don't get hung up on forcing the long term goals right now. Don't bring up the 3 month time period to her again!! Way too much pressure. The reconciliation process can't, and shouldn't be, measured on a calendar.

Stick around here, buddy! Looking forward to hearing more from you!

Just wanted to journal a bit.

I'm feeling kind of set adrift right now. Actually, W and I have been getting along great for 10 days or so. Suddenly, she became friendly. As an R tho, we are still up against a wall. No movement at all, except in the ability to chat. But, this comes and goes all the time. Usually in the past, it comes if OM is not around for a while, then goes when he returns. Now, she swears she has no contact with him... But, just this morning, she cooled again... after being out till after 1am last night.

JJ, you write extensively of having you W go MIA. How do you cope? Mine has never done that physically, but does it emotionally all the time, and it seems in direct relation to her contact with OM.

I'm still really bothered by this "work on the marriage" thing. I'd prefer we agree to "try to make the marriage work", and define that, and work a plan. I've said I have an uncomfortable thought that her "work" is just ploy. This is supported by her unwillingness to define "work". There are no goals against which to measure, and she ignores my requests for them. I've brought it up a couple of times, and I don't want to push this, but it's really important to me. We have another C session tomorrow. Should I bring it up again? Goals and a statement of intention are what I'd like to hear. C gave us homework the first session that asked us to tell what we felt essential to an R, what we would not tolerate in an R, what good, and what "challenges" we each brought to R. We both "handed in" our homework, but nothing has come of it yet. C says she has plans to work with this. It is prime goal building material, but without C's help, I can't get W to come up with goals. There is a combination of what seems like reluctance on her part, and my inability to explain what I feel we need to do to form goals.

Anyway, just a ramble. I'm sputtering, but it's because I feel frustrated and stagnant. Thanks for listening...

Hey Z! That whole R limbo thing does totally suck. Been there, done that, far too many times. I can relate to what you're feeling.

I didn't cope with the MIA thing very well for a long time. Spent far too much time wondering, worrying, and freaking-out about it. I finally learned to detach myself from it quicker, and to quit taking it so personally. I learned it wasn't always about me, or OR. I tried to make sure I gave her plenty of space, and tried to distance an amount close to equal of her distance. I even ended up going MIA quite a few times myself.

I, too, noticed some of my W's distancing happening when there was contact with om. Probably more of a reaction to guilt feelings on her part. It may be a good idea for you to distance at this time to let her work through this, and so that you don't let any anger over it cause any damage.

It's pretty important to really take advantage of the "getting along great" times to grow the good feelings she has when she's with you. Don't expect any immediate reactions to it, but if you do it right, you'll help to build a more solid base from which to work, and to draw her back towards you completely.

One of the hardest things about this part of the journey is keeping your patience. Things start progressing, and we have a tendency to want to rush things along too fast. Big mistake. Learn to embrace these limbo periods, and use this time to reflect on how far you've come already, how you got there, and maybe experiment a little with something slightly different. Above all, do no harm to your R.

Remain calm, be comfortable with letting her set the pace. Don't overwhelm her, or yourself, with too many goals at this time. Let her learn to be comfortable with you again. Learn more about her and her wants and needs, even and especially the little things. And do lots of things for yourself.

Hang in there, buddy. It's a long road, try to enjoy the scenery and appreciate all the good things along the way!

[ November 08, 2001: Message edited by: Jamesjohn ]

Z,
Her way of working on the marriage right now could be just going to the counseling. I think that is were my H is at. At times a little more but mostly counseling. I think during these confusing times it is that much more important to work on ourselves again. To show the spouse that we want to be different for the sake of our own happiness.
I would say don't bring up the goals yet. It may be a little too soon. As hard as it is sometimes let the counselor to their thing. Sometimes I wonder whose side my counselor is on but hanging in there is part of the game.
If you push it you may end up pushing her away, not intentionally of course. My H said once which so goes along everything that we see on this BB
"I don't want to be pushed back, I want to be pulled" so show her the wonderful you and stop pushing.

I hope this helps. My H was in the 'not sure about working on the marriage for about 10 weeks' we finally are all on the same page Counselog, my H and myself. It seemed for a while there everytime H made progress or it so seemed to me the counselor was questioning him. I WAS READY TO GIVE HER A PIECE OF MY MIND. But she came through last week. So now we are TRULY all 'working on the marriage' Hopefully not too much about my relationship. But it seems a little similar.
Remeber baby steps.. well first they slide on their back SLOWLY, then they sort of turn but go back on laying on their back. Then they turn on their belly, but go back to laying on their back again, then they start crawling but at times they are not sure about it so they may go back to laying..but once they start walking and they are sure of it, those baby steps becomes more consistant and there is no more going back to laying around. Think about it. I have an infant so I am using baby logic.

Thanks for the great perspective. After reading your thread, I really understand two valuable new concepts (at least for me): "Progress, not perfection" and "Catching her getting it right". I've added those to two of my favorite Michele-isms: "If it's not working, try something else" and "Always consider your goals... If what you are about to do will bring you closer, do it... If it will push you away, don't" (paraphrased). Now I'm feeling like I have a pretty complete set of guidelines.

Reading you experiences is so helpful. It seems you've seen it all and have formed pretty good plans about dealing with it. Going MIA myself is a good thing. And, a bit easier than your sitch, I imagine. I say this because I'd never try to "out-do" her on the MIA thing, just give her a taste of her own medicine. Since she NEVER has stayed away all night, I don't have to go there either. Less confrontational that way, I think. An all nighter on my part would be a challenge, as I see it.

jtolic--
Boy, the baby thing you wrote is so helpful. Of coures we all know about baby steps, but you're breaking it down further helps. Micro steps. And we all know you gotta creep and then crawl before you can walk. Thanks. I'm also interested in your wanting to take the C to task. I'm feeling a lot of what we've been hashing up to now is all about me. W has said little, and we've talked little about her, and none about the affair. I feel my role in the R is being disected. She just sits. She doesn't ask or answer much. She makes startling proclaimations about me, then we spend half the session on me. Again. So, do you think this kind of thing eventually comes full circle, and then the process moves ahead?

As I've mentioned, I'm still concerned about the "time frame" issue. Yes, I've been doing all I can, but it feels like she's dragging her feet. It seem to me as if she feels that once she opens up and defines things like goals, and what "working on it" means to her, she's committed to work toward that to some kind of more open ended resolution. If those things are left undefined, she could just unilaterally pull the plug on the "deadline" date, saying "this isn't working for me". Just a feeling. We are now almost halfway through the 3 months with little progress, other than talking more. Goals are nebulous, she only talks on her schedule, and her time. Almost any time I try to initiate a talk, she's not available, and gets angry. When she initiates, she's got an agenda and a short list of issues. When she's done, she's done. I still feel she's hiding lots of things, including contact with OM, even though she says there is none. I still see the "OM hangover" that I used to see after known contact with him. As JJ said, it's like a guilt thing, a distancing that takes time to overcome. That time is making me nuts.

I know if this "attempt" was open ended, it would be so much easier. It's the "deadline" aspect that has me the most squirrelly. I have another C session this afternoon. Should I bring this up --- again? My main plan for today's session is to try to get the topic away from me and the past so much, and try to concentrate on us and the present and future. I plan to express my need to know what "working on the marriage" means, say "I'd prefer that we agree to try to 'make the marriage work', formulate some goals toward that, and then just listen as much as possible.

Thanks for your support.

Z,
We know what you would prefer and what you consider as progress with the R, but thats not the issue here and now. Stop obsessing about the 3 month thing cus I'm here to tell you, she could split tomorrrow. The 3 month promise is not cast in stone in either direction.

You are pushing way to hard for stuff that W is in no position to answer. Set smaller goals. I reiterate the question I suggest you ask at the C session.

************************************************
If you get the opportunity during a C session, ask W what would be the first sign, to her, that things were improving.
************************************************
Don't ask for any more than that. Don't confuse her with "TOO MUCH". Remember, she is already confused. You really don't want to add to that or come off pushy. She needs to feel no pressure from you. If she can't answer that simple question, aske her to think on it and get back to you. If she can't answer that simple question, you will know just how confused she really is.

Don't get impatient on us.

Kent

Thanks for the kick in the pants.

I'll ask.

We have a session in an hour and a half.

previous answers to that question have ranged from "nothing" to "I don't know". But I've never asked it in therapy. The "get back to me" approach is good to try. Her normal pattern with requests like that is usually to ignore me, but occasionally she does respond some time later with rather thoughtful answers. If I ask in therapy, hopefully C will bring it up next session.

Z,
If she can't answer that question, you have no choice but to back off and focus on your own attitude, actions and re-actions. You should be focused here anyway, but this may need to become your sole focus for a while.

Oh, turn the F...ing clock off.

Kent-

I want to point something out here, just for clarity. I'm not this frantic in real-life. I'm sure it's possible some of the intensity does leak out into the real world, but not much.

I use these boards and IM to vent my frustration and fears. I keep a pretty good PMA going out in life. None the less, I really appreciate your input.

Kent, we've crossed paths in various forums before, but I don't know if you remember me as such. You have helped ground me in the past, and are doing so much again. Thanks.

I say this so you guys know that even tho at times I can sound like an off-the-wall paranoid nutcase, I'm pretty well composed most of the time and it's really only here that I am able to totally let my hair down. I use this place for all it's worth in that regard. Thanks so much for you support and understanding.

And Kent... keep on kicking my butt!

Z,
I don't think you sound that off the wall cus I walked in those shoes.

Good luck with the C session. Don't forget to offer W a hug when it's over, regardless of how it went.

Hey Z! Good luck at the session, and stay cool. Kent's giving you good advice.

I've learned that you can set your own goals for the M, and it's possible to achieve them even without her knowing about them. Will post more on this later.

Z - I'm pasting a link here that may be of help to you when it comes to setting and achieving goals. It's from the KLA group I was in, and gives a lot of good examples, with lots of help from Michele. Hope this helps you out a little!

http://66.111.66.234/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=54&t=000004&p=1

P.S. The KLA group was a GREAT help to me. If you get a chance, you might want to read through everything in that forum. Lots of practicle help and advice from Michele and others throughout all the posts.

[ November 09, 2001: Message edited by: Jamesjohn ]

Z,
My H said back in September when we started counseling all of the mean things. then with the counselor we set up a date which was Nov 1st. At that time we needed to decide whether we want to work on the marriage. I HATED IT. I was positive come Nov 1st H will say OK that's it I have tried.
I did my best. Tried not to backslide but I did. About once a week. I think once since August I went for about 2 weeks.
Even before Nov 1st H said he wants to work on the marriage. It took us two sessions to convince the counselor that is what both of us want to do. Maybe her fault maybe our fault. But we are now working on the marriage. Talking about how to fix the problems.
We still don't know which way this will turn out. But I was told I had 6 weeks and the decision will be made. Just forget about the time frame which really doesn't mean anything. Just work on yourself. That is the best way to work on your marriage.

Back.

We talked about lots of relavent stuff. Once again, I got us mired in an issue. Last week's home work was a conflict resolution drill that I couldn't get a full handle on. We worked on that.

Then, Kent, I asked THE question..... "what would be the first sign that things were improving", and she couldn't answer it. C kind of changed subject, we talked about other kinds of goal things, got into our initial homework answers and how to deal with them.

Then, next week's homework. She starts out saying she wants to introduce a Brief Therapy concept, and have us work it..... ACT AS IF!!! W has read a bit of DR, so she's likely heard the term, but now has had a therapist's explanation, and practicing that is our homework. Her prime item that she couldn't tolerate in a Long Term R was "indifference", which the C worked out to "not being involved in the R". So W's assignment to get comfortable with Act as if is to Act as if she's once again fully involved and I am too.

At the end, I again brought up that THE QUESTION was not answered, and C said "she doesn't have an answer right now, that's OK, that can come later". So it's well out there, and everyone knows. Sorry for pushing, kent, but I did need that. Big hug at the end. And in the session, she winked at me -- hasn't done that in months!

JJ - Thanks for the link. I'll check it out.

jtolic -- Thanks for the perspective. As you can see the timetable is killing me. I'll stop now.

Later. Thanks for all the good words.

[ November 09, 2001: Message edited by: Zebra ]

Z,
I said ask the question, not try to drag an answer from her. Wait and see what W offers in the near future with respect to an answer. Do not ask again. Her silence is answer enough for now.

You come off as a very impatient person. This may be a good 180 for you to start developing an implementation plan for. You gotta get all pressure off W with respect to OR. You need to become happy, funny and fun loving again. I'm speaking from W's viewpoint.

My backing off my W was the major turning point in our R. I decided that it was more important for her to find happiness than for OR to survive. I knew that there was no OR if she could not find happiness. I found myself urging her to figure this out. If she needed to try to find this in bars till the wee morning hours, I sent her with my blessing. Believe me, they notice when you become genuine. Your eyes are a window to your heart that they can read through. We all can.

You are not hanging out in the wrong forum. Your heart has told you this. Don't just read what we are trying to tell you. Resist your natural urges to pursue and pressure and start walking the talk. Give control of the OR to W.

Also, make a point of doing something special this weekend. For you and her. What would she take notice to? Maybe it is as simple as smiling a real smile and demonstrating to her that she is free to choose. No words, actions!

Have you considered sending her on a mini vacation alone?

Hang in there buddy.

Zebra,

This is really good advice from Kent, it is the most powerful thing when you can genuinely put your spouse's happiness above OR. I needed to be reminded of this today too... (been acting like a train wreck).

Thanks Kent.

LeeP

I've avoided responding to your suggestions because there is really nothing much I can say. You've pretty much hit the nail on the head. I need to respond if only to let you all know how deeply I appreciate your responses, and how much they helping stay grounded. So, this is mostly to say thanks.

I HAVE become impatient lately. Thanks for pointing that out, Kent. I'm backing off. Actually, you've misread me. I am very patient. I've gotten spooked lately due to the perceieved deadline. I'll get off that now, I promise. I've seen real progress in W indicating more and more that the "deadline" is a guideline. I've also noticed I get a little freaky and shrill around therapy time. I believe this is due to bottling things up that I don't feel comfortable addressing 1 on 1 with W. So, I hold onto stuff and make it more important than it needs be. Letting go either by detaching or by gently voicing it relieves its importance and allows me to be more level headed. Time and experience are showing me that I have less to fear than I sometimes think.

I've learned in my R, tho, is that backing off is one of those things that doesn't work. Backing off led W to hire a divorce atty. She felt I was ignoring her and had become indifferent toward the marriage. She felt she needed to communicate through a legal mouthpiece. Backing off had her on the brink of filing 10 weeks ago. Opening up has led to us discussing things about OR, about OM, about our child, our family, and our marriage. Opening up got her to understand that I truly didn't want a divorce, and am committed to the marriage. Opening up got her to agree to couples therapy. The biggest 180 I've made in this process is NOT backing off. In my R, it IS what works. The hardest thing about this approach is finding the very fine line between communication and pursuit. Between dealing with issues and pressuring a point of view. Understanding that the difference is a matter of degree. I still haven't fully learned how to find it, but W is slowly teaching me. The worst part about trying to find that line is that it's a moving target...

We are actually doing quite well, and, yes, I've been quite impatient of late. Your input here has helped me almost more than any I've received. Reading your experiences shows me that I'm on the right track, and allows me to see so many baby steps taking place where I thought there were none. I can't begin to thank you all for your help.

I post this hoping it doesn't sound like rationalization or justification of some of my apparent squirreliness. It's certainly not. Your suggestions and imput are most appreciated and continue to be invaluable in helping me assess my situation and how to pace my actions to best contribute to it's improvement and avoid it's decline.

Thank you all.

Z,
Remember, we only see what you post.

Yes there is a fine line between communicating and pushyness(pursuit). Your W is the judge.

Me, I always got anxious and depressed befor my personal C sessions. It took me a while to figure out why. This kind of anxiety is all based in fear. Fear that our lives are about to drastically change and we are not in control of that change.

Eventually we figure out the truth. We are not in control of our WAS's choice for a change and and the resulting impact on our children and our economic condition. However, we are in control of how we choose to react to this situation. This insight brought me great peace. I finally realized and accepted that my kids and I would be OK regardless of the outcome of our M.

I have no doubt that you are a wonderful person. After all, your search to save your M brought you here. Remember that even if you don't manage to salvage the M. The real issue is wether you salvage yourself.

Keep on DBing!

Well said, Kent.

It's been a good week. I'm back under control (of myself), and not letting my impatience rock the boat. That happens. Now it's over. I'm realizing my job is to stay away from what she's doing, stop judging, and show her the best I can be.

From last week's C session, the homework was to go over our "lists" from the first question -- "What is important to you in a long term R?" We were to discuss our lists. We got into only one topic (more about why only one later) -- Trust. Started with an easy one . We did good. No upset, and we pretty much agreed on points. I even mentioned that at some point "we would be discussing the affair, to better learn how her needs went unfulfilled, and to avoid that happening in the future". C liked that one. The other big homework was Acting as if... For her it was acting as if she wanted to be in the marriage, wanted to come home. For me, it was to act as if we respected each other fully. Went well. In fact, W said she had an generally awful work week but home was pleasant and peaceful.

In C, a number of things came up. First was why we only talked about one issue (the trust thing). Turns out I was waiting for W to start up, and she doesn't like to do that. What came out of the is that I asked for permission to start OR talks, and received it. W said she doesn't want to initiate, and in fact admitted that when I don't, she has seen it as indifference and complacency toward OR. Also took my silence on OR as permission to pursue her life elsewhere. So, I'm supposed to pursue OR's and issues. Wow. Another thing that we agreed was that when she's not in the mood for an OR, she's to tell me and we will make an "appointment" to pick up later, rather than a cold dismissal. We also agreed to do the same thing if things get tense in an OR. Agreed to take a "time out" and agree to readdress issue at a specific later time.

Second, W answered one of my questions.... What would be happening if the marriage was working again... She said, (and I'm not kidding) that she would "be in love (with me). I love you, but I'm not in love with you" She said this in a C session! Anyway, we all talked about that, including the differences between "romantic new love" and "mature, lasting love". C mentioned that she needed to understand that, no matter what happens in OR. I pointed out that I'm in somewhat of a disadvantage because she's had recent experience with OM in the area of "romantic new love" and the excitement of that. Anyway, after the session, I said to her that since the Act as if had gone so well for her last week, maybe this week she could add "acting as if she could be in love" with me. I suggested she needed to start with only small thing, like just letting us say "luv ya" to each other, and looking for those good little things. I already got a "throw away" Luv ya on her way out of the house yesterday.

So, it seems to be going well. I'm getting indications that contact with OM is increasing (there's some telltale secrecy things going on), but I'm not letting it get to me. I was going to confront, but then thought, what's the point. The only point would be to call her in a lie, since she assures me there is no contact, but that would only start a fight and cause her to distance. I just need to be a pal. I suppose his presence presents a problem in moving ahead by being a point of comparison to me as I try to get her to be "in love", but if it's not him, it will be something else. I just need to win her on my own, despite the "competition". I can do that. I'm working on some thoughts to expand the idea of asking her to 'act as if she could be in love'. I'll let you folks know as the plan gels. It's a bit sketchy now.

So, I'm just kind of journaling here. Wanted to let you all know I haven't self destructed, and thank you all for your support.

Hi Zebra,

Sounds like you're doing a great job of keeping perspective and staying cool. It's my turn to tell you you're inspiring!

It's so true that when we get "pulled in" by the "competition" aspect of things, it undermines our best efforts. Self-confidence is such a huge magnet. Thanks for these reminders and keep up the good stuff!

LeeP

Things are going along slowly, and I think in the right direction. We've slept in the same bed now for 6 days, mostly because we had house-guests for the holiday. It was nice. First "pillow talk" in months. Tonight will be interesting. Guests are gone. Don't know where she's gonna sleep.

My big thing right now is the continued presence of OM. I know, I'm impatient, but I need some advice and guidance here. I'm not jumping to conclusions, but I want some help with perspective. W said she would stop seeing OM. She defined that as stopping all contact, and said he was under "strict orders" not to call or email. She and he were mixed doubles tennis partners, and had a tournament the complete which I conceded should be done. I said she should finish her commitments so not to adversely affect other innocent parties, but she should not start any new social involvements with him. She agreed. Now, a number of situations have come to light that show her general untruthfulness in terms of contacts with the circle of friends of which the OM is part, and I've also caught her in a couple of specific lies about contact with OM. Specifically, she has joined another tennis group which he is part of, and she has arranged to play tennis with him on occasions where she told me specifically that she was playing with other people. Additionally, there are a couple of evenings where she says she's playing tennis with women friends, but always comes home quite late after going "out for a beer with the gang". In the past, OM has been a key part of the gang. Finally, just the other night, there was a social outting with a group of tennis friends. OM showed up, and sat at an adjoining table to ours. After a time, W and OM spent considerable time making eyes at each other, though I suspect they didn't think it was noticed. There is more, but you get the idea. I don't suspect any PA, just continued EA.

So, here's the question. I feel that she is flagrantly violating her agreement not to see OM, at least in spirit if not also in practice. I want to know what you all think about calling her on this. See, I believe if she feels she's getting away with it, she will become bolder. There's the other side where if she thinks I know and am not saying anything about it that I'm giving implicit permission (see previous posts for perspective on this). I want to point out that her little games are not unnoticed, and that I feel she's breaking her agreement. I wish to point out to her that as long as she continues to be emotionally invested in OM, she will seriously hinder any progress at reestablishing emotional bonds in our marriage.

Finally, should if you think I might bring it up, any suggestions about how? Should I do it alone, unsupervised, or should I wait to do it in a therapy session? I don't like "springing" things on her in therapy, but it does feel safe. I also don't feel that the C has laid any "ground rules" about the affair, so W feels no impediment to continuing it. I think we both believed C would make a few rules regarding OM contact.

Otherwise, I'm moving along pretty well, just slowly. I've been doing more "me" things, and I'm feeling it's working when I look at the big picture. Unfortunately, I don't think W sees is working, at least not as well as I do. Time will tell...

Thanks folks. I'll try to keep up a little better in future. I sometimes feel a bit overwhelmed by it all, and I feel it's sometimes easier to just fade away and watch instead of actively posting.

Z,
You will eventually need to tell her how her actions are causing you pain. You will eventually need to tell her to pick.

You need to decide when that time is. I did it early in my crisis. I even confronted two potential OM's.

The best way to do it is to tell her in a non-confrontational manner what you know. Then make it clear that she is making her own choices which do not appear to include salvaging the R.

If she is playing the EA game with OM, it may be better to urge her to leave at this point.

My opinion.

Kent

Here's kind of an update. Things seem to be going along nicely. I didn't confront her about OM contact, but instead, I told her that I've been feeling really antsy lately, and feeling a little jealous. I said I don't want her to start feeling pressured, but I want her to understand I've got some things going on that I need to work through. I marked the parts in DR about infidelity, with some emphasis on the part about The Unfaithful Person (this section points out the need to stop ALL contact with OP). I asked her to read it so she would understand if I seemed a little needy and clingy from time to time.

Since then, she seems to have moved back to our bed permanently (or at least indefinately). She commented about it, and I said indeed I'd noticed, and asked what it was about. She said that if she was really going to try on this, it was the least she could do. We've not been to therapy for a few weeks, and it's been good, cuz we've talked to each other, without waiting for C sessions. I pointed out that we still had a number of "homework" items to review, the list of "things we consider necessary to a Long Term R". She said she was busy at the time, but came to me later with one issue.... the first time she's opened this discussion. Her issue was "good, playful, and plentiful sex". Wow. Not that anything has happened, but that was the issue she brought up. On the down side she brought it up with a sort flip attitude (kind of "well OF COURSE this is important to a long term r. I'm not necessarily talking about OUR R, but ANY R requires this....") It's kind of the way she responds any time I ask about the items on the list. Whenever I ask "what will be happening in OR when you feel those needs are being met?", she always says "I don't know...", and dismisses it. Anyway, I found it interesting she opened that door.

No therapy for a few weeks. This had been interesting. When it was clear at the end of our last session that it would be a few weeks, I was pretty antsy. But it's been good. Lots of laughter, humor, fun. She's still distant, but I detect a conscious effort at distance on her part. If she's not directly thinking about it, we are friendly, and have a fun family R. Not a lot of physical closeness, but some, and more touching, but not intimate. I see, or maybe just feel, lots of small baby steps. I don't feel an approaching deadline.

I'm watching, and waiting, and doing more for me. Can't wait to see what happens next.

'tis the season of the anniversary of "The Bomb". Sorry this is long, but I've not written much in a while, and I'm feeling strange... It's tough to say exactly when the bomb fell in my case, and in retrospect I should have seen it coming for months. On 12/28, I found the first incriminating email on my computer while we were away on a family ski holiday. I talked about how good a kisser he was. I challenged her with it, she said he was a "good friend". I resolved to check her home computer when we got home, but didn't have a chance till 1/3. In the mean time, we agreed that we needed to see a counselor together. I made an appointment, in a panic, on 1/2.

1/3 I snooped in her email on her home computer. Still, to this day, I'm utterly amazed that she seems to never have learned the value of a delete key. It was all there. All the proof of the affairs, xxx rated stuff. I decided to copy it all to and store it off line somewhere. I decided not to confront her until we started therapy, and then only under advice from the counselor. That didn't happen... I was a very bad snoop. I didn't cover my tracks very well. Like, I left her email open to one of the incriminating emails, while having it sorted to show all mail from a particular individual. Oops. I guess the phone rang, or something like that, and I walked away. Not that I was in the most calm, collected mental state at the moment. Anyway, she found the computer like that, and she came clean on all of it.... the affairs, the partying, she new friends...... and that she wanted a divorce.

To this day, I constantly wonder where I would be if I had never been caught, or if I had never snooped. It always seems to me that she demanded a divorce in a knee-jerk reaction to the shame and embarrassment of being caught. Then, out of some dumb, stupid pride never backed down, and worked hard through the following months convincing herself that was what she wanted. Of course, with the complete support of her lover, her friends in the SSW, her other misguided and misinformed friends, and finally, her/our therapist. In this regard, it's amazing how closely she fits Michele's descriptions in the first chapter of DR. Quite possibly she recognized herself in those descriptions when I gave her that first chapter, and maybe it was one of the reasons she's decided to slow down... Anyway, it seems to me that it is those months spent convincing herself and being convinced by others that I have been battling in this reconciliation effort. I bet if I was to re-read her email with the OM, I'd see a trend that traced the progression of the affair from starting as a fun fling, through a fond support and like thinking, to a firm support of her against me (with gentle pressure toward what he wants), to plans to "be together some day". Gag me, I won't do that!

I don't know where we are now, except by measuring against the past. The farther out I cast my measurement, the better things look. For example, in the mid-summer, we had little if any contact. I was simply in the way of her life with her new friends and lover. By Sept she had hired a lawyer who demanded I hire my own so they could "proceed with negotiations". October brought a lot to a head, and she agreed -- in fact suggested -- to try to reconcile. She said she'd give it three months, stop seeing OM and we entered couples therapy. November she came back to our bed (still no sex yet, but this is still a big step to me). December, she suggested we visit my family (first time since "the bomb") and we did for a pre-christmas. January...... Well, we have a "deadline" of 1/15 that she set back in October, but that she's admitted is more a guideline that a deadline. Therapy seems to be going well... She's not fully satisfied with it, nor am I, both for different reasons, and I think that shows we are both growing from it and have farther to go. The therapist said she sees progress. She says she thinks we are months away from resolution, but that we've also come a long way. We see her again on Thursday. That will be only the second time in about 7 weeks, and we've been making progress in spite of that.

She still has some "social" contact with OM, and has recently admitted that. By social, I mean they are part of a larger group where they are sometimes both in attendance. I think her willingness to admit contact is good. Shows she trusts/respects me enough not to hide contact from me. I don't think she yet completely understands how any contact with him at least slows our progress, but she seems to understand that I don't like it, and any contact is a sign of further disrespect for me, and she knows THAT is not good for us.

Some time ago, I mentioned somewhere that this process seems to be kind of like stopping a huge ship and turning it around. It doesn't happen in an instant. I don't feel we have turned around yet, but we have really slowed down from the course of full speed ahead to divorce. With the new year, I hope we will soon be ready to change the course.

Just an update to let you all know I'm still here, and things are still moving along. Thanks to all, and a Happy and Healthy New Year!!!

Zebra,
It is always nice to see things turning around. I really don't have any advice to say do this or that. My H and I were separated for 3 months. He was SOOOO indifferent about our relationship. It just hurt me soooo much. We went to this weekend.
Retrouvaille.org it turned things around for us.. He went from indifferent to moving back in and we have felt closer then ever in our marriage.
i am not sure whether I am suppose to tell you here to try something other then DB but I feel anything that may work we should let each other know about it. There is info on the website about it so if she may go you can't loose anything by going to the program you can gain a whole a lot.

Good Luck.

J --

I just read a lot of your stuff, and there seems to be no follow-up to your Retrouvaille weekend. Seems like it worked well!!

I've often thought of Retrouvaille, but not for a while... Arnold once suggested to me that I also check out John Gottman's clinic. But, the presence of an active PA and other things made me feel that she would have no interest. But now, in the current climate, it might work. The biggest problem seems to be that she is still struggling with issues like "I love you but I'm not IN love with you", and the allure of the "romance" and "excitement" she found in the affair with the OM and her "single" lifestyle with all her new divorced and divorcing friends.

How did you approach your H with the idea? I'm a little apprehensive about approaching it. It was a big step just to get into Couples therapy. I don't want to overwhelm her. I've also felt a bit pressured by her "deadline". (tho that was breached yesterday when we made our next couples therapy appointment for January 17th ) I like the "chicken" approach of leaving a brochure laying about, but I can't seem to find one. Maybe I could print out things from the website...

Anyway, how did it go? What's it really like? How is the follow-up? Any thoughts or sharing of experience would help...

Here's a short update...

The "deadline" of Jan 15 has come and passed. She's still here. Sometimes we're close, sometimes we drift apart. We seem to "bounce" off each other -- when things start to look like they are going well, suddenly, she withdraws and distances. Long ago, I noticed similar behavior at times I knew she was "seeing" the OM regularly, and I started to think of it as an OM hangover. Well, two weeks ago, and then again at the beginning of this week when she started on one of those distancing routines again, I broke down and drove by his house. Sure enough, each time there was her car... My sensing an OM hangover was right on the mark.

So, now, I truly believe the PA has been scaled back to an EA, though it could reignite any minute, if she decides to stop "trying to work on" our marriage. I believe this kind of thing has been going on the whole time she's been trying, he being among her primary support while she struggles through "trying". Talk about 10 steps forward, 9 steps back, and trying to put our a fire with gasoline.

So, I want to confront this OM contact, and put a stop to it. She's said she won't see him. She's said she'll work on the marriage. I don't believe she can do that effectively while still in contact with him, nor can she fully allow herself to open up to me and trust me as long as she continues to act untrustworthy and lie herself. I'd love anyone's thoughts on the pros and cons of a confrontation, and if you think it's a good idea, suggestions on how. I'm still nowhere close to throwing in the towel, and I don't think she's fully convinced herself yet either. I don't want to push her to OM or to divorce court. Any ideas?

Z,
Sorry W is still at it. I'm a big one for confronting the affair, lies, bullsh##, etc. You gotta go with your gut on this one. You will get a hundred different opinions. Me, I would suggest she go live with OM so the rest of the family can start to recover. Send her off with your love.

As long as she is playing the fence sitter with you on one side and OM on the other, this kinda stuff will continue.

Good luck on this one. I remember the feelings well.

Thanks Kent. I guess I knew that.

This afternoon, I had a talk with her. I told her I'd noticed her distancing and withdrawing, and how it felt a lot like "the old days" when she was seeing OM. I said it was a lot like the old OM Hangover, and explained what that was.

I told her I didn't want her to see him. She's in a social situation where he's around a lot of her friends, and it's somewhat impossible to completely avoid him, so I emphasized I don't want her in a situation with him she can choose to avoid, and I definately don't want her to be alone with him at all. I tried to express this all as my desire rather than an order or demand. I'm not sure how this came off. I believe the follow up will make more of an impression... how much she's honest with me, and how well I respond.

I asked when the last time she had met him alone (knowing it to be just the other day). The said she couldn't remember, and then re-raised the issue of my snooping in her email. She said "well, you probably know better than I". I said I don't snoop in her mail anymore (true). She said she doesn't trust me, and I don't trust her. I talked about trust, about how affairs can destroy it. I told her I really want to trust her, but she makes it so hard by staying so closed off and secretive. I pointed out how I've asked her to simply tell me when she'll be home and where she's going when she goes out, but she still resists. I tried to explain how it hurts to not trust or be trusted, how scarey it is when she's out and I know around him. I told her I just need some communication and some reassurance.

I'm working on a strategy to follow up. If it becomes clear she's continuing to meet him, I will reveal more of what I know, and I would tell her I would no longer keep her secret about her affair... not explicitly "out" her, but not lie to hide her affair. Next, I will seriously consider confronting OM. Kent, any pointers here will be welcome... Finally, I'd begin "outing" the affair to friends and family. Haven't gotten much past that. As far as getting her out, I've asked a number of times already, and she refuses. I don't think she can bear the embarrassment. A divorce, yes, and active extra-marital affair that is leading to a divorce, no. Go figure.

That's kind of where I am now. Any thoughts?

Thanks, z

Z,
I hear a couple of things in your post that I don't see helping.
1. Your W does not trust you. It probably has alot to do with the fact that she is sneaking around, but she has already justified that. I'd give up all forms of snooping. As you said, you know when she has been with the OM.

2.I get the distinct impression that you two are not having much fun togather. Kinda hard to put a positive spin on stuff with no fun. What can ya do about that.

3. *********************************************
I pointed out how I've asked her to simply tell me when she'll be home and where she's going when she goes out, but she still resists.
************************************************
Time to stop asking. As a matter of fact, try to be gone when she comes home. Be out doing your own thing. Try this one for a 180.

4. I think you should contact the OM. I prefer the tele as it restricts you from ripping his head off and shoving it up his ###. Keep in mind that this may piss your W off. Like I said before, making this decision has alot to do with your goals, self respect and disrespect from others. If W is not seeing OM, It does not make sense to pursue this. If she is, ya gotta decide wether to confront, or just send her to him.

5. Stop acting like her daddy! I did this with M wife and I can tell you are doing the same thing. Stop trying to be her moral light. She will only resent you for it.

6. I told you a while back that if your W is still toying with the OM, you should send her to him. That is what I would do. Is that what you would do? You need to decide. We are all different and thus, make different choices.

So tell us about how your W has been working on the R. What have been her efforts. Then tell us what you have been doing. Tell us about your PMA and the goals you have established to improve yourself. Tell us what you are currently working on. Tell us what has been different lately.

Kent,

Sometimes I loose track of the fact that I tend to come here when I'm hurting or confused or frustrated. I used to be on these boards all the time, but now I go for long stretches where I just leave them alone and get on with my life. I actually deal with this situation pretty much as you suggest, but I realize since I don't post much other than when I'm frustrated, that's not clear. I've asked her to leave, and tried to "send her to OM" a number of times. I don't really ask for much, I pretty much ask once, and let it go. I AM probably guilty of "being her daddy". Working on that. I've been afraid to contact OM, for fear of driving her to him, and fear is another thing I'm working on, and am licking. For now, she seems to have backed off him, so I'm not going to rock that boat. If he reappears, talking to him is on the top of my list. What have I got to loose?

Mostly though, I've been doing pretty darn well. Part of the problems with me have been my own little MLC, mostly career oriented. I'm over that, but I was pretty ugly and grumpy, and I drank too much. I've stopped that, I've stopped worrying about my work. I've been learning and playing tennis, I've been making more friends. I've been being a great dad, so much so I often hear other women comment on how lucky my wife is to have such a participatory dad. Goals for me... Financial independence so I may continue being such a participatory dad. Not a far stretch, I've learned that this is mostly mental. Learn to be more open and honest about my needs. I'm doing that. Learn to be less judgemental. Ditto. I've stopped drinking. I've stopped making excuses. I've stopped therapy, and replaced it with weekly tennis lessons. Better long-term therapy, anyway. I get most of what I need here and from a number of IM and email friends. I'm feeling less as if my marriage desparately must survive for my sake than that I truly want it to survive for all our sakes. I love my family, and my wife, and I want what's best for us all. I recognize that may not be marriage, but I don't believe that yet.

My W's work on the R is tough to describe. She seems to be very confused about what she really wants. This is most evidenced by her unwillingness to leave, and her willingness to go through the motions of "working...". Maybe she's just buying time. The only overt evidence I see of her efforts is that she's not seeing the OM as obviously and blatantly (tho she never really did), and she's attending couples therapy. She doesn't pull back from me, and there has been some slight physical intimacy (but very little emotional intimacy). Her efforts in couples therapy are like her small collection of R books... They've all been opened, and all show signs of having been started -- maybe as far as 1/3 way through -- then she dropped them and moved on to other thing, and back to her patterns. She is very closed, very unwilling to talk about her feelings. I'm the talker, to quote a wise DBer, "I was the one who pushed for communication. W was the cave dweller. This has not changed all that much. I'm not sure that it ever will."

Kent, I so appreciate your help and advice. I have always felt we had some kind of connection. Recently, I've begun following along the JJ's KLA tape discussion, and it was there that I first read much about your personal story. From what you say in your first post in the tape 1 thread, you seem to be where I'd be headed, if the OM were out of the picture. I truly know that he is not the problem, but he is certainly the main barrier to our ability to begin to truly deal with our problem.

The biggest thing I've learned in this ordeal is the value of doing something different. 180's make all the difference in the world, and most of my best results have come from doing things that are often considered totally wrong on these boards. But, the thing I've learned is that it isn't necessarily the specific act, but the fact that it is different that gets the results. I've seen that sitting her down and talking to her about what's bothering me after weeks or more of biting my tongue gets results, even if what I said is controlling and demanding. I suppose she reads it as caring where the silence is read as complacency. I've learned that talking about things more often opens communication, where holding my tongue promotes distancing. Again, it's not that specifics of my situation that I notice are valuable, but the generalities of constantly trying something different. "If what you are doing isn't working, try something else." And when you do something else, keep in mind (from DR) what your goals are. Consider if what you are about to do will bring you closer to them or drive you away, and act accordingly.

Well, that's were I am. I'll stay in better touch from now on. This is a nice place.

z

[ February 08, 2002, 05:15 PM: Message edited by: Zebra ]

Z,
I'm glad your still workin on things. Sorry to hear W is still lost. The only question you did not answer is what fun are you two having togather? Do you guys go out at all? Even if she is a bit reluctant, it's worth a try.

K

Ya know, the thing about fun is really odd. Yes, we do things together, and yes I have fun. She makes plans for both of us and asks me out, I make plans for us, and she comes along with no objection. I make sort of open plans for myself, and if she finds out about the specifics before the event, she joins me.

And, you know, I could swear we have fun. We laugh, we are playful. Not all the time, not every second, but we have good times. Yet, later on, on reflection, she swears she doesn't have fun. She challenges me to tell her about the good times we have. She can't believe that I truly feel that there are any moments at all that are working. In this, she seem totally determined to convince herself of this. Call it selective memory, alien behavior, or what ever, it's incredibly frustrating.

I know I sound obsessed, but I see this happen especially after she's spent some time with OM.

I saw him last night, and W wasn't around. I almost had it out with him, but it would have been pushing things. Boy, is he smug, and does he know how to "hide" behind a crowd. Seems to deliberately seek me out when there are a group of people around and try to make small talk. If I don't participate, I appear an ass to people who don't know the situation, and to those who do, I appear to be exactly the sour-puss I've likely been made out to be to them already. So, I buck up and turn on the social charm and smiles. Then I flip him off when no one else is looking...

z

Hi, Gang.

Still here, not much to report, just wanted to say hi.

If there has been any progress, I'd say it's mostly with me working on my PMA. I had a long talk with her where I kind of laid out a bunch of things from the way I see them. I told her I didn't want her to see the OM. I told her I believed that as long as she was in private contact with him, sharing ideas, good times, or whatever, she could not focus on us or on our problems. He would be a continuing distraction. It was my intention to frame this as "my desires and wants" to let her know, and as a basic requirement that defined "working on our marriage", as opposed to "my demands about how she behave".

Well, she's been complying, at least overtly. She makes a point to avoid social situations where he will be present, and makes a point of letting me know if he will be at those she does attend. I've stopped checking up on her, stopped trying to get into her email, stopped checking to see where she's parked her car. This is all a big weight lifted from me.

Not to say it's been easy, or that I've not been tempted to revert to my old snooping patterns. I've noticed how much so much of this behavior (snooping, deception) is like an addiction, and in studying and considering it, I've gained a lot of insight into addictive behavior. I've noticed apart from the physical aspects of addiction, the emotional aspects can largely be described as a simply mindless, selfish quest for immediate gratification. And, this quest is made without regard for the consequences or risks until after the particular act has been committed, and one is caused to regret his behavior. Then too often, the pattern repeats, causing perpetual misery disguised in the quest for pleasure and well being. It happens with all sorts of compulsive behavior.... love, sex, power, drugs, gambling. I see it in myself in the snooping activity, and in my wife in her continuing contact with OM. We are pitiful in this regard.

I for one am noticing this and am doing my damnedest to break this pattern and move on in healthier pursuits.

Just letting you all know I'm doing OK.

z

Cool!

Is W making any attempts to discuss the past and/or the future or is she just compliant with your wishes?

Well, Kent, no, not really any discussion. Just seems to be complying with my wishes. She may just have gone "underground" with OM again, but she's not out till all hours, and she's at least going through the motions of letting me know who she's with and where she's going. She's still out a lot (playing tennis), but is almost always home shortly after tennis club closes.

I've been leaving a lot alone. I've discovered the value of No OR, and I'm getting a feel for the required balance of that and the necessary OR in my R. I'm feeling it's time to begin to say it's time we begin to work on intimacy. I plan to be careful to acknowledge a real distinction between physical and emotional intimacy to not exert unwanted pressure. I believe emotional intimacy may actually be the hardest, because I am now wondering if she's ever been completely emotionally intimate. Physical intimacy is different, and can be "just the act", but emotional is hard. Being emotionally naked can be frightening.

Anyway, that's where I'm leaning now.

Thanks for being there.

z

Interesting points Zed Man. The whole emotional intimacy thing. I am thinking my H is in exactly the same place. He sure is giving physically - exhausting on some days [Roll Eyes]

however the emotional ties and bonds I feel are no where near there.

As I type I am watching Oprah- it's a Dr Phil day... what can I say... they are talking about affairs and sex and all that stuff. The revelation for me is that until our spouses acutally "hear" or understand and "feel" our pain and sense of betrayal they just don't "get it" and we still have a hard time closing the book or truly forgiving. I think that may be where I am at.
H doesn't feel that his emotional fantasy EA was a betrayal... never mind he was headed for a lot worse - because he didn't actually "do" anything. It may be he will never acknowledge it as such, or understand my feelings at all.
Perhaps your W is in a similar place.

It's figuring out how to get through it or deal with it in a way that brings the marriage truly back together in spite of their walls and barriers.

Sounds like you're doing a decent job of it.

I too have pretty much stopped snooping and hovering and all that stuff. It is rather liberating isn't it.

keep in touch
tree

tree

So, I checked in on Dr. Phil too, after reading you post. I never saw him before, and I tuned in too late. I've read so much about him that I've wanted to see him. Now I know that Tuesday is the day...

Man, do I understand the spouse not understanding our hurt and betrayal. Or, maybe they understand, but can't empathize, or can't express that empathy to us, out of their own cloud of pain. In my case, I'm sure she feels justified, based on the "pain" I caused her. I frequently wonder how I deserve this amount of payback tho. Funny, I recall from back when I was reading her email how she did show signs of discussing it with OM. She had once mentioned something about how I was depressed and how miserable she was making me. He responded that I may be depressed but that only I was capable of making myself miserable...

I guess it's all self preservation. The spouse has done the unspeakable, that which they have been taught is one of the greatest of wrongs, the mother of all sins, that which they always believed themselves to be better than. Once they "sink" to the level of being able to commit this behavior, they must justify it or go through denial that there is anything wrong with it. To admit the wrong and face their own fallibility is a hard blow to the ego. In your case the fact that it was a fantasy EA makes it even easier for him to deny it. He may never see the wrong, the hurt he's caused. "you're over reacting" "it was nothing" "you just don't understand" YOUR problem, cuz for him to admit his problem, and that his problem caused you pain and the marriage damage is too much for his fragile ego right now.

I've received all kinds of statements and actions from her when I've expressed my sense of pain and confusion... "life's not fair. Deal with it." "I just want a divorce. How can you be so cruel to hold me prisoner." "I want to be single." "I don't believe people were meant to be monogamous." "It's just time to change partners." Nothing like that for months, last summer at the latest, but that's the kind of thing she says out of there justification and denial.

Well, I'll just keep going. There does seem to be light at the end of the tunnel. I still need to have the "intimacy talk". I'm just chicken. And then, just when I really think we need to talk about it, she does something really nice and warm. It shows me that healing is going on and probably things will work out in their own time. Maybe I just still need to concentrate on patience. It's soooooo hard to be this patient.

I guess the prize is worth it...

z

Hi Z and Tree,

Interesting stuff about how our spouses can’t understand our feelings. As always, I try to look at the flip side of the coin. Can we/do we empathize with them? I’m not condoning an A or EA, but we get frustrated when they “just don’t get it” It just makes me wonder if they’re thinking the same thing about us.

Tree knows that I’ve tortured myself a lot over that one. I don’t know how much figuring we can do without driving ourselves (to quote tree) nutbar.

Think they may go through the same thing?

Andy

This is getting to be a habit, my monthly checkin. I promise to try to do so more often.

I've been drifting again. I don't know how I feel. I'm starting to get mad where in the past I've just been scared, I think. I don't get mad at her, but mostly at me, and somewhat at the pace of all this. There, I said that. Now it's gone.

Things have been pretty good, actually. Lot's of fun, laughs, chuckles. We are really working (or maybe not "working" as in "work") on being friends. We get along pretty well, and we share thought, hopes, dreams. We are being friends. I've still bothered by her distance, and by lack of physical intimacy, but emotional intimacy is improving (more of the friendship thing). I'm bothered by her still having lawyer on retainer. I'm bothered by her continued social contact with OM. As far as he goes, I think the contact is more or less like picking at a scab -- as long as he is around in any form, the wound can't fully begin to heal. Patience is still a my biggest problem.

More on the positive note, I'm feeling optimistic about lots of stuff. We do talk a lot, and it appears that she is truly making an effort to be home more. I think she thinks I don't like her going out to play tennis so much, but I really don't mind. I just mind her being at the club when he's there. We talk about the future more. She even gladly co-signed a home equity line of credit to help out my business. That's a 3 year commitment (of course the contract can be broken, but it's a commitment, none the less). I've pretty much totally stopped snooping, and I really see how it was hurting my PMA. I still get a bit squirrelly about my suspicions, but I don't act to confirm them. It's interesting how often simple circumstances end up supporting that my suspicions were just that -- suspicions -- when I learn from third parties in passing conversation that things and meetings I feared where happening couldn't have. A big new thing that's happening is she seems to becoming weary of the whining of the SSW (for you who don't know the term, it was coined by IAC and means "the Sisterhood of Separated Women -- the WAW's main support group). She's seeing how shallow they are, and she's getting impatient with their lack of consideration regarding her responsibilities as a mother and wife. And I think she's really noticing how pathetic their little "single woman" dramas are. Then, a couple of weeks ago, I actually got her to watch Dr. Phil's show about "communication" with me. She liked it, and she likes Dr. Phil!!!

Well, as I said, just checking in. I'll try to post more often and be more on topic. It's just nice to come here from time to time.

z

[ April 14, 2002, 07:41 PM: Message edited by: Zebra ]

Sounds pretty positive, Z.

Like you posted on tree's thread, we've been at it for awhile. I still can't figure out if that's good or bad [Wink]

You say patience is still your biggest problem. I think that patience hit's it's lowest when we start trying to get our R back, and through a lot of effort and determination, we reach our "patience peak."

Then at some point, we say, "Will this ever end? I've been at this for "man o man, 16 months? [Eek!]

"

Just gotta hang in there, eh?

And enjoy the good times. It really has got better in 15 � months, hasn't it?

TTFN,
Andy

I don't know if this means anything, but I've noticed that the longer a couple hold on to the marriage the more likely they will reunite. I've noticed it here on the board, and in real life. I've seen couples run for the exits in anger and frustration, and then reunite. I've seen others cause each other so much pain on that exit that they can't get by it tho they make an attempt. I've seen here on the board people who thought it was totally over have them come back. I've seen others divorce and maintain a relationship at a level that it's still unclear whether the divorce will truly "take".

So, that said, I think it's good that we've been around so long. I always believed and believe even more now that time is my friend. I believe that if every attempt is made to work this out, we will all win, regardless of the outcome. But, I believe the chances of the outcome being the saving of the marriage is much higher the longer you can stick it out and work it out. I believe there will result a sense of common accomplishment from the joints efforts made to make it work, or to find out if it should work.

It's just so damn frustrating that it takes so long, and I believe it's because we both adjust to the possibility that it can be saved at different paces. I also believe that the WS has a much harder task to convince themselves that it's worth saving the marriage after they've convinced themselves that it's not, and shared and reinforced that conviction with whatever outside councel they've sought. There is a lot of ego issues to overcome to admit that maybe you made a mistake. I believe my wife is struggling with some of that.

What's 15 -- 16 months between friends, anyway? I've got more... It's only time, I've got more [Smile]

z

[ April 16, 2002, 12:23 PM: Message edited by: Zebra ]

I agree with you 100%, Z. I was just being a bit flippant.

I agree with your take on the difficulties that the WS has in changing their mindsets. In my case, my W never seriously considered walking away. It just wasn’t practical. Instead, she chose to walk away emotionally. She decided that I dominated OR so she’d just live her own life under the same roof as me. Sort of a parallel living arrangement. It still takes a leap of faith for her to backtrack on that. It still takes time.

I have a theory about your theory (i.e.: the longer a couple hold on to the marriage the more likely they will reunite). I believe that we all go through phases in our lives. Sometimes we’re out of phase with our SO. If you stick it out long enough, you’ll eventually get back in phase. The biggest barrier to this is – as you’ve stated – the ego issues, and the trust issues.

But, when you do get back in phase, I believe that you’ll have a better R than you ever imagined. You’ve worked out some issues that would have stained your R for the rest of your lives if you hadn’t reached this sort of crisis.

Anyway, this is my hope.

TTFN,
Andy

Hey, look, less that 2 weeks and I have more to say!!!

A few months ago, I mentioned the �ocean liner� analogy to a turning a R around --- how it�s impossible to stop and turn on a dime. Well, the divorce ship has finally drifted to a stop, and we�re making real moves to starting up in the direction of saving the marriage. We are kind of dead in the water right now, but active measures are being taken to start the engines and strike a course toward a new R.

This therapist we�ve been seeing is a woman we found when I was trying to do anything to keep W away from divorce attorneys. She�s actually a divorce mediator and communication therapist who occasionally handles couples therapy, with an SBT-type model. We actually had an initial mediation appointment arranged before W said she�d work on the marriage, and we called before we got there to ask her to change hats from divorce mediator to couples therapist. In her work with us, she�s mostly been working on communication, and hasn�t really taken a stand one way or the other regarding marriage. The has been �safe� for W. During our therapy, she gave us various communications exercises, and asked us to read a book called �LoveWorks� by a two couples therapists � Mary Ann Massey and Ronald W. Heilmann. From the start, W has had a tremendous aversion to reading any R books. And this book is particularly badly written (these folks are therapists, not writers). But it is loaded with incredible insight, and no nonsense observations of the dynamics of the shift from a new-love romantically charged relationship to a maturing, long-term relationship. For whatever reason, W read this book. And she was moved and found something in it that made her pause and reconsider. She also has been getting feedback from some of her closest friends that she owes it to herself to fully explore whether this marriage really needs to end before she goes to that end, and that she�s really not done that to the extent she needs to to be able to walk away with a clear conscience. This is all getting through to her. And, I guess, I�ve been sincerely being a nice enough person that she sees little to actually loose in trying.

So, anyway, the current C (mediator) feels we�ve reached a point in progress where she can�t really help us anymore. She feels her area is improving communication and solving disagreements, and she believes we�ve progressed to the point where we need more solid couples work, particularly work on intimacy. She�s recommending we see another therapist, who also follow a Brief model, who�s specialty is couples and intimacy. Before she did that, we had one last session yesterday, where she essentially asked if we were both willing to make this step forward in improving the marriage, or if either of us felt we were done and this should end. I had told her on the phone that I was not going anywhere, I was in this to save my marriage and my ideals had not changed. We were both unsure of what W would say. So C posed the question in the C session. W said that she has realized that she needs to give this all the best effort she can. She owes it to herself, to our daughter, to her family. She�s not totally convinced that staying together will be the best thing for our daughter, but she�s not willing to risk her well being without a final attempt. She�s become convinced that any divorce action will be horribly destructive and painful (thanks to advice from divorced friends, I think), and she no longer wants that if there is any chance of avoiding it. She also was clear that she wasn�t �coming back to me� but was exploring �coming back to the marriage�. She apologized to me for this.

A key point in �LoveWorks� is one about learning to make the �second-best� choice being one of the most important skills a couple needs to develop to endure through the transition and enter the long-term relationship happiness phase. �Second Best� means making choices and compromises that lead to an agreement on choices as a couple, even if those choices were not the first choice as an individual, while still respecting that the first choice for each individual was valid and proper for the individual, but that as a couple maybe you had to accept the second, or third best individual choice, because that was the best for the couple� the �second best� choice. W feels she understands this, an that it has opened her eyes to the possibilities of our future R. ( I hope I didn�t mangle that concept too badly).

I say Halleluiah! I believe that�s truly what it�s all about, that the secret of a long term R is to pursue you live and R together with you partner, not to make your R and life about your partner. I believe that understanding that distinction is the key to making the transition from infatuated romantic love to long-term commitment and companionship love. I believe it�s the failure of many couples to understand that that leads to the breakdown that causes divorce. I didn�t get it, and I made her miserable enough to look elsewhere and run. She didn�t get it, and looked to recover the romantic infatuation instead of move ahead to the long-term phase.

So, now we are moving slowly starting to move ahead. We are slowly starting to explore how the concept of �second best choices� works. I feel for the first time in the 16 months of this nightmare that I don�t risk having W throw in the towel at any given moment and walk out the door. I feel that for the first time in years she�s willing to be �present� and see what has to happen for both of us to make this work.

The ship of divorce has, for now, stopped. I�m feeling better than I have in a long, long time. Thanks to everyone here for all your love, support and help.

Don

Now I've had a couple of days to let this sink in, and to notice her behavior, and notice a bit more objectively how I feel about it all...

I guess the thing now is that I feel for the first time since this started that I have my wife back. She's not become any warmer or come closer yet, but has definately stopped being cold and distanceing... at least so far. I believe she will to the work, and will see the value and logic of not ending the marriage. I believe she can allow her viewpoint to mature and accept that a true long term relationship is different than what she expected. I also believe that although right now she likely feels a little let down by life upon discovering the things she has about long term relationships, she will grow to understand that ultimately it can be more fulfilling and richer than a highly charged, smotheringly passionate and frantically romantic new love ever could be.

I'm not kidding my self. I know that at this point at least, she's not coming back to me, but she's reassessing the marriage. I understand that to mean that she's beginning to see that the whole of the marriage is greater than the sum of its parts. That no single element should be allowed to make or break it. That she's seeing the value of accepting some less than ideal things for her to allow the ideals of the whole to shine through. She's seeing the value and meaning of true partnership, of full development of each 'self' by it self while joining with each 'other' for companionship, respect and trust. To me, it seems the essence of growing old together.

I'm exhausted. After she said this all the other day, I felt a sense of deflation as my guard lowered and the nervous energy I've been functioning on for so long relaxed a little bit. I'm reminded about the part of DB where Michele asks us to consider what you would be doing with all that energy you put in to saving your marriage if you marriage was working. I've read that, processed it, but never really understood it till this moment. It takes a lot of mental, nervous and emotional energy to do what I've been doing for the past 16 months. Maybe I can learn to harness it as excess now and do something brilliant.

I'm not kidding myself into believing it's over. It's far from over and may never be over. I still don't know what it will look like when it IS over. I don't know if my marriage is saved, or if it's just now entering it's last phase before we both see that it shouldn't be saved. But I feel better about all of it and about myself than I have in a long time.

Z,

Great posts. One thing that you rightfully pointed out is the question - what would you be doing with all this energy if the marriage was fine. That makes a lot of sense to me. Merely by living as we should, the energy in productive things enriches our lives. Great reminder for all.

IMP

Just poking my head in to say hi. I'm feeling really good, and the anticipated reversal has not occured. I sometimes feel like Chicken Little, thinking the sky is falling, but it's not. It's still up there.

W has been a sweet heart. Affection is increasing slowly ... I think she's testing the waters. I'm not sure how to respond, I guess Slowleee is the best medicine. I just hope she doesn't think I'm not interested in more than just affection, but I don't want to take more than she's willing to give. Just trying to learn the balance.

I'm not really looking for advice or help, just wanted to say hi and let you know I'm good.

z

Zebra, there is a reply from me to my "He keeps putting me in my place" that you were kind enough to reply to. Let me know what you think. take care, Lisa

Z,

The more I read your story, the more I felt as if I could have written it, save that you are still married. Methinks that they could have put themselves in a corner where they are afraid to really let go. Could they worry that if they let go of others in their lives that we may not really want them?

IMP

quote:
Originally posted by inmyplace:
Could they worry that if they let go of others in their lives that we may not really want them?

Hmmm. Interesting, as is the opposite... Maybe the impass they are struggling with resolving is partly what you say, the other side of the coin being that they are finally beginning to consider if the others in their in their lives will be as supportive and invigorating if they let go of us?

On of my W's formerly cute quotes was "I want it ALL". After the "bomb" is was more likely simply pathetic. Now it's becoming humorous again because she sees the irony of it. But I do see signs of her contemplating whether she will be as eagerly accepted by them after she ends it with me as she is while she merely threatens to end it with me... I see evidence of this by her backing way off from the SSW (she actually avoids them now). I see it particularly in a recent statement in Therapy that she's been advised by her friends to do everything she can to work out the marriage. That leads me to believe that she may think if she doesn't follow that advice, those friends will loose some respect for her.

Interestingly, I asked who those friends were, and she refused to answer. She said I would probably read into the list that any who weren't on it were against me and hold it against me. It still makes me wonder who all knows about our problems....

Still, I see it all as positive, it all shows that at least she's thinking, no longer just rushing headlong, pell mell into the abyss.

z

I'm feeling a little shakey today, maybe it's just the weather.

W is being a bit distant again. Kind of like what I used to call an "om hangover" when she had spent time with him and would come home being weird and distant. I don't know what's up this time.

She and her mother went away to a tennis camp for Mothers' Day weekend, along with a bunch of W's other women friends. I don't believe OM went since Mom was there, but who knows. Since they returned, she's been distant, as I said, like an "OM hangover". How she acts specifically is that she avoids being alone with me, won't talk to me unless it's in a group (like with D), goes to bed early and is "asleep" when I come to bed, not approachable at all. It's like living with a stranger who s cordial socially, but cold and closed to me personally. But, this can change in a second. I'm just feeling down about it now...

So, the feeling I get is that she's hiding something, or many things, if only feelings. She's always so very closed. Even the latest revelations about "recommitting to the marriage" were not made to me directly, but to the counselor. I've only vaguely referred to it once since (asking about who of her friends had counselled her to give it her best effort), and her response was that she didn't want to talk about it at all. I think I'm going to start trying to pull more out, by approaching her with a request to let me understand what she means by recommitting, and what she and I will be doing when that happens...

I guess the real issue I'm wrestling with is I see so many closed issues, so many secrets she has. It seems it used to be she'd just lie about everything, now she just doesn't talk about things. Secrets. Are secrets of this kind truly private issues, or are they lies by ommission? She used to lie all the time both by commision and by ommission which I knew from snooping. Since I don't snoop any more, I don't know if either is the case, so by labeling this as "secrets" am I just kidding myself? Are they still lies of ommission? Is the step from active lying to keeping secrets a positive or negative one? I suppose not knowing exactly what these secrets are is a big part of it... I suppose I need to make it safer for her to share them. I suppose that is where true intimacy begins. I just don't know how to start. Any ideas?

z

Z,

I think I am catching up with you. After confronting WAW about everything I know she has gotten very "closed" as well. I plan to back off big time now and let her take it all in. I noticed that "OM hangover" as well in the past. The sequence went something like this:

Asking me (telling me) if she could go out
Getting upset if I wasn't excited about it
Going and being very excited about it
Coming home and being very close to me
Followed by "but I am not comfortable with sex now"
I would ask her questions I knew answers to
She would be upset
The guilt brought her to me in less than 3 hours
and we would have several really good days.

Pure craziness isn't it.

How do you give them a safe haven? Don't know either. Have they earned a safe haven? I think that is the question. I am done approaching this as a husband (i.e. caring too much, expecting courtesy.) I am approaching this as the OM. Try to fill her time with great joint outings. Concerts, trips, dinners (maybe with other couples), parties, etc. A friend told me "She wants to go out? Take her out". Even when you are home: watch movies together, play a board game (maybe with other couples), etc. Sulking and depression aren't helping them or us. And if they insist on being depressed get the hell away from them. You go out and party up and tell her you had a good time but it could have been even better if you were there. I plan on keeping a full summer schedule with or without her. I used to be a tremendous flirt and that is harmless enough and great for PMA.

You have given me some great advice (I got it too late to use some of it), I hope this might help you.

Z,

Yep. I know exactly what you mean. Many times, what the former Mrs does is of wonder to me. Sometimes she says what she is doing; other times, no. She seems to be hiding stuff from me. The difference is that she isn't working under the guise of "fixing the marriage."

One thing is for sure. You are giving your best effort here. We can't control others. At the end of the day, all we can do is look ourselves in the mirror and know that we were true to ourselves.

IMP

tbone --

Ah, you found me. And you are really catching on. I really like this idea, become the other man... I've heard that so many times, and truly, you say it with such confidence, that I believe you will!!! it is a goal to shoot toward.

Indeed, it does help me. We all have gotten so close to our own situations from time to time that we can't see the simplest things, even those things we suggest to others. Thank you for the wake up.

z

hey Zed... so... we're BOTH still here!

Become the OM... works for me. good idea there TBone.. (steakman)
If smarmy sales guy thing works... go out buy a few new sales type shirts and wow her!! Or at least make her wonder. [Eek!]

My h still has his moments... not hangovers but certainly times when he distances. The key is not to walk on eggshells around it, but to do what you want to enjoy and live your life and let her figure out her own issues. If she can't ... well it's really not your issue is it??

More than a year later and we are still at it. No fat lady singing at either of our respective abodes. so far... [Smile]

birthday this weekend. remember last year's blow out? Was gonna do same again but different year and with my mom gone,.. I will wait a bit...

caught up with you again for the short term - age wise that is! [Razz]

Thought it time to post something. My ego wants my thread visible when I bring up the page... [Big Grin]

I did a very scary thing last night. For me at least. I've been looking for ways to tell W how sorry I am for violating her trust by snooping, as a means to trying to rebuild trust and emotional intimacy. My snooping had mostly been by "stealing" passwords and hacking into email and Hotmail. The other was to monitor her cellphone records to see who she calls (OM). I did this by having access to her online cellphone invoice, which she didn't know. I got that by setting up the account for her in the first place. Cell phone was a Christmas gift from me. Later, at her insistance I converted it to her name, and she has the statements mailed to her office. I still had online access, tho.

I haven't snooped in any way for months. No surveillance since January, no internet stuff since February. In some ways, it makes me nuts not knowing, in many more it's peaceful. I only have to deal with my paranoia about OM contact, not face cold hard evidence. It's easier to keep a PMA that way, easier to not feel like a doormat. Anyway, I've been itching to look at her cellphone records. And then, I've been thinking I should just ask her to change the password. YIKES, that would require telling her I had access!!! I was terrified to do that.

Well, yesterday was the day the new cellphone invoices are posted on the web. I was twitchy all evening. I was making me nuts. She had gone to bed, and I was on the computer. Then she came downstairs. We talked a bit, and she noticed I was twitchy, and asked what was wrong, what I was up to.... and I came clean and told her of access and asked her to change it. I told her I had not checked up on her in anyway for months, and I didn't what to start again. No big deal one way or the other. It was calm, and I apologized for misleading her, and I said I had not snooped, and didn't want to and felt weak. I apologized for ever violating her trust, and told her I wanted to do everything I could to rebuild it.

We went to bed, and as I lay there I said "Good Night", and then the dreaded "I Love You". She doesn't respond to that, ever, but this time, she reached over, grabbed my hand on my chest, and held it till I went to sleep.

This morning she disabled the web access to her account. And we are fine. I'm shakey and nervous, but I feel good.

z

[ May 22, 2002, 07:35 AM: Message edited by: Zebra ]

quote:
Originally posted by Zebra:
We went to bed, and as I lay there I said "Good Night", and then the dreaded "I Love You". She doesn't respond to that, ever, but this time, she reached over, grabbed my hand on my chest, and held it till I went to sleep.

Actions speak louder than words. [Big Grin]

Andy

Good job and good luck. I have also thought of telling my WAW to change her E-mail password but I want to have the opportunity but not take it like you did for so long. My WAW is where your's is at in regards to the privacy issue. Time for trust repair and maintanence on this end too.

Do you got out at all by yourself Z (i.e. without WAW)? I asked my WAW last night if I should pursue relationships like she is and she got mildly flustered. Would your's respond if you went "out" or is that more of a LRT?

Sure I go out. Not a lot. I'm basicly a loner and I like to spend time by myself. I also don't go out in the evenings much because I get to go out during the day. In my field, one is more or less a "temporary" employee, or even self-employed, and works on a project by project basis. "freelance" is another term. This provides lots of free time, just no predictable schedule. So, I get out and about during the day. Evenings, I end up the designated baby sitter while W "goes out". This is close to being a doormat, but I've come to terms with it. I'm also not really interested in a lot of "night life" stuff anyway. Frankly, alcohol has been an issue in my marriage, and it's under control now and not really an issue. If I started to "go out for a few beers" from time to time, it could easily become one again...

But I suspect that's not what you mean [Big Grin]

I don't 'date'. I never have during this whole thing. I'm married. I don't 'date'. Now, there are some who suggest 'dating' as a technique to bring the WS around, to force them to face the possibility that they may loose you. I think this is playing with fire, for a bunch of reasons... One is that WS may just get mad, and feel justified in doing anything at all, including jumping into bed with the next warm body that shows interest. Another is that you might "accidentally" find someone you like better, you may find yourself where WS is now. What mess that would be. Another is that I'm leary of any technique that "forces" WS to do anything. That's coersion, and I believe it will likely only lead to resentment in the long term. Another problem is that you may "accidentally" cause someone to fall in love with you, and then you have to deal with that problem. Ever see "Fatal Attraction"? YIKES!!! And, yes, I suppose for me it would be more of an LRT than I'm interested in. It certainly says you're moving on.

And then, I'm a gutless chicken [Roll Eyes]

It's up to you. It's one of those things that maybe you know yourself well enough to know you can handle it.

z

[ May 22, 2002, 08:16 PM: Message edited by: Zebra ]

Again, I hafta agree 100000% with Zebra.

In general, I think mind-games are bad. IMHO, DB techniques aren't supposed to be games.

quote:
Excerpt from DivorceBusting:

Sometimes after reading about doing a 180 people wonder, “isn’t this technique like game playing? Isn’t it manipulative?” Continuing to do the same old thing even though it doesn’t work is no less game-like than doing something different. In fact, since relationships are like seesaws, if one person expresses all the optimism and confidence, the other person is free to feel all the pessimism and insecurity. Spouses often balance each other out in this way. When one person’s views are extreme, it forces his or her partner to adopt an equally extreme view in the opposite direction.

And the worst mind game of all is doing things to make 'em jealous. Like Z said (and for all the right reasons), it's playing with fire.

Andy

Hi gang!

Just another update.

In July 2000, W gave me my horoscope that she had downloaded. It warned of the beginning of some really serious problems in relationships developing, and warned that those R's might not survive, but that if they did, they would be immeasurably stronger. At the time I didn't know that W was just ending an EA that had gone sour when he would not take it to a PA with a married woman. She was looking, and started a PA a month later, then another 2 months later... I was also constantly battling with my business partner, and (wife believes) possibly enduring an emotional breakdown as a result. So much for my state of mind that got me here...

Over the weekend, I looked up the horoscope for June from the same source. It commented that after the events surrounding eclipse of last month on the 26th, and having resolved one of my biggest relationship conflicts, (ironically, I bought my problematic business partner out on 5/21, so that "R" ended then) I was ready to deal with the issues in my most important relationship. It said the "eclipse on June 24" should mark the end of a tumultous period that began with the eclipses in July 2000, and the issues in my most important R should reach their final resolutions beginning about that time. I read that if the R had not collapse yet, it seemed likely it would endure, stronger than ever... I find horoscopes eerily intriguing in retrospect. I don't map my life out by them, but I find them really eerie. I found a horoscope of W's last Oct that said that ...the influences that have caused so much strife in you life and relationships starting in early 2000 will end around Oct 4 2001, opening the way for more peace and harmony in your life... Early 2000 was when she met the SSW and most long-term OM. Oct 5 was when she agreed to try to work on marriage. Since then, she has little contact with "old friends" (SSW). They have sort of left her by the way-side. This too, I find eerie...

I've been drifting around emotionally for a month or so. I've been spending a lot of time on the boards, especially in newcomers, offering advice and reading stories (both good and bad). I do this sometimes when I feel I'm loosing my resolve, when I feel my PMA suffering. The stories help me get back on track, the advice shows me that I do still get it if I apply it. Now, I'm back. I've bolstered my resolve. W has been being a pal, we joke, play, are being a family. Physical intimacy has not returned, but gentle touches have. This is a long way from where we were. I've mentioned emotional intimacy a lot, trust in particular, and I'm doing my best to rebuild her trust. I've asked that she tell me if I do anything that impedes that. She says little, but her "presence" speaks volumes.

Anyway, just checking in.

z

[ June 03, 2002, 08:43 AM: Message edited by: Zebra ]

Cool! Dance the Dance.

Glad to hear a positive tone in your post. I hope she comes around and realizes what she has. What is the status of thr French Open trip?

TBONE

Nice thread Zebra, I picked up some wonderful insights and will try a few in my own 180's.
I have had a couple of really angry days here and can't shake it.
Keep up your good work!

Z,

good thread --

will add to list of "how to do it right" inpirational bookmarks [Big Grin]

Hey Zed man... just like last year... when our threads were running neck and neck.. If nothing else... feels good to still be in the game... eh?

tree
wasn't it zedman who called me tree first?

tree..... maybe... I recall a conversation about tree, stick, branch, twig....

z

Thanks for stopping by, everybody (Kent, t, dar, e, tree). I've been working on stuff, and it's about time for an update. I'll post one soon.

Biggest development is we started with new counselor yesterday. She's WONDERFUL!!! She works on a Neuro-Linguistic Programming model, and specializes in families, couples, relationships, and intimacy. W likes her, I like her. First home work was to read Don Miguel Ruiz's "The Four Agreements" (one of my favorites), and "The Mastery of Love". Then a big questionaire designed to show her and us how much we really know about the spouse and how they think, in contrast to how much we "think" we know. It's full of triplets of questions on many topics. Triplet always runs like this.... "What you think..., What you think spouse thinks you think..., what you think spouse thinks...." Forcing us to get in their head. Interesting to see where this goes.

I'll let you all know.

z

I had my first individual session with new C (W goes on Thursday). I read the books, filled out the questionaire. I had a hard time with the "what do you thinks she thinks that you think" because it required getting into her head, and I really don't do much of that anymore, and I told C that. She responded that was good, because staying out of her head is definately a good thing.

Good things C said.... She saw a lot of caring between us, a lot of friendship. She couldn't tell, until she talked with me, who wanted a divorce and who was trying to save the marriage... To me that's a big thing, cuz W didn't ooze contempt and flight. C had to ask who was the "runner" in the situation... didn't think I was per se, just that neither of us seemed to be trying to get out. W's response to what she needed was "to feel that I love H again". To this, I told see I'd heard it all, that it was just part of the script. C asked if she had said any of the other standard lines, I said yup, I've heard them all.

This woman is just gets better and better. I'm so excited with this C. We talked about true couples trained therapists, about Michele (of course she knows who she is), how she really admires DR. We talked a bit about her NLP training. It's so similar to SBT, that it's as if they are different brands of the same product... like Kleenex and Scotties.

And, things are working already... Among the secrets W still clings to is OM contact, even if "innocent". Last week, W played tennis with a "bunch" (I assumed women), and I asked who(don't usually do this). Turned out to be mixed doubles, and she told me, OM was one of men (this happens, and I know it does, she just doesn't usually mention it -- secret). I was quiet for a moment, then I quietly, calmly said "thanks for telling me that. It matters, and makes me feel you trust me." As she was leaving to go, she said, "uh, we'll be likely going out for a beer after playing, is that ok?" (She NEVER asks, just informs me.... maybe) I said "sure, why should tonight be any different than other nights... Have a great time." And, she didn't stay out very late at all... So, I read that as an attempt to work on secrets and trust. YEAY!

That's all for now.

z

Progress is truly a beautiful thing. Maybe this C is just what your W needs to get out of her fog. I am glad to hear that you asked W the "who" question. It is even better that she answered that and asked you about going it. I smell something good, oh, it's respect. Glad to her your good news Z. Good luck.

TBONE

Hi Z,

quote:
Originally posted by Zebra:

As she was leaving to go, she said, "uh, we'll be likely going out for a beer after playing, is that ok?"

To me, this is huge! Y'know what it tells me? That she trusts that you won't get your underwear in a knot over this. She trusts you enough to ask you a question that you could say no to, but she fully expects you to say OK.

In other words, she doesn't view you as a roadblock to life's simple little pleasures. She doesn't have to be defensive.

I don't think she was keeping secrets per se. She was just avoiding the hassles of arguing over it. Seems like she doesn't feel the need to do this any more.

Yay!

Andy

I don't think she was keeping secrets per se. She was just avoiding the hassles of arguing over it. Seems like she doesn't feel the need to do this any more.

You've got that exactly right, Andy. Avoiding hassles.... Avoiding conflict. The most destructive pattern in our entire marriage, from day one.

That is exactly what I really mean about 'secrets'. Secrets that she keeps to avoid hassles, conflict. Secrets that eat at her, that when they are finally allowed to come out are devasting, and even worse so when they don't come out. Then add to that the "assumption" that I will react "as I did in the past", or as her father "acted in the past", and you have the three things that I told C I dislike most, and the reasons I dislike them.

I think this is big progress, and made with simple effort.

What I take away is that pretty much all I had to do was state it and then make it "safe" by not reacting badly to the news she was so fearful to deliver. I did really good in this regard.

Oh, there's another thing the C asked today. I told her this story, and she asked how I really felt about her seeing him. I've been working on this for a long time, because I have come to know that I have no say, I have no control in her contact. It is all up to her, her choice. I told this to the C, that I believed any pushing I did would simply push her away and closer to him. I asked and she agreed to read the Infidelity section of DR. I said I had stated my feelings, and my wishes, that I'd prefer she didn't see him socially, and that any contact with him made me uncomfortable. I told the C that otherwise, as far as she seeing him, "it's none of my business". C admired that answer, and corrected me on one thing... that I can't push her any closer to him, as I can not pull her any closer to me. It's all her choice.

C also asked if I ever say OM. I said sure, at least once a week we cross paths in the fitness/tennis club. C expressed some small admiring astonishment at my control...

[Wink]

z

z

I just had another thought about the recent C sessions... I suppose that's a sign of a good session.... things keep coming to me the deeper I go, the longer time passes, like peeling an onion (did you see Shrek?)

Quite some time ago, I read somewhere that to totally recover from infidelity, trust had to be rebuild. Forgiveness and trust were the keys. (I think this may have been in Dobson, but I'm not sure). The gist was that forgiveness could be, should be given, but that trust had to be earned. That is was not really possible to simpy give trust, that it had to be earned. Now, I've been holding on to that concept for quite a while even though I don't think I've fully agreed with it. It makes that aspect of recovery from the affair conditional, makes love and respect conditional, and that to me set one up for failure. It imposes demands and control ("behave like this and I will trust you, if not, then you are not-trustworthy...) Anyway, I've been holding on to the concept.

In C, I mentioned that I had forgiven, that I wanted our marriage to work, that I wanted to rebuild the trust and respect. I said I was willing, but that she had to earn that trust. C immediately shot back, "no, she doesn't. You have to trust, as she does, and move ahead." Wow. That hit me. I've been working on it now for a while.... And I see how holding onto this idea has been inhibiting my ability to move ahead, to truly come from a place of unconditional love. As much as I accuse her of living in the past, the idea of requiring her to "earn" trust, to show me that she has changed, is the epitome of living in the past, of not being able to let go of hurt. The pain of the past thereby becomes the standard against which success and growth is measured.

So, here I am letting go of yet more of the crap that makes my life not work. And, it's a beautiful day here in the northeastern US!!!

Have a good one...

z

What an eye opener! The same problem exists in our house. "I will trust you when you are trustworthy." Everything in your last post was new to me and gives me a whole new plan. "I will trust you and you will become trustworthy." This new C is really good.

TBONE

quote:
Originally posted by Zebra:

What I take away is that pretty much all I had to do was state it and then make it "safe" by not reacting badly to the news she was so fearful to deliver. I did really good in this regard.

.
Make it safe! I love it, Z! I think that this is the piece that’s missing from so many people who are trying to piece their M together!

It’s the next step after acting as-if.

You go dark, act as-if it doesn’t bother you, etc. But then what? Well, you do those things until it doesn’t bother you (or at least until it’s manageable), but if you stop there, your S will always wonder if you’re just swallowing it. At this point, it stays buried and festers.

So the next step is to make it safe.

My W saved money for almost a year in order to buy a motorcycle. She left “hints” around, but didn’t dare bring it up, and I didn’t get the hints (duh). So when she could no longer keep it from me, she fully expected me to try to stop her. She didn’t use much finesse when she told me about it, and I was floored. Not because of what she did, but the fact that she felt it necessary to do it behind my back.

She didn’t feel safe.

I told her what I thought about her methods and proceeded to plan how we could pay for a bike. In other words, I did exactly what you did, Zebra. I stated my feelings and then made it safe.

This was a turning point in my R. By making this one issue safe, I opened the doors to other issues. She feels safer to bring up things, and no longer assumes that I’ll block her road to happiness.

And that, my friend, is precicesly why I think your handling of her “secrets” is an huge step forward in your R.

You say you made big progress with simple effort. Yeah. It was simple in a sense, but all of the elements had to be lined up, or it wouldn’t have worked. You still had to do the groundwork waaaaaaaaaaaay back when, didn't you?

And, the trust thing! Yeah. Makes sense. It comes under the category of things you have to change about yourself, doesn't it? Only you can make yourself trust someone!

Sheesh! It's so simple. But simple isn't the same thing as easy, is it?

This stuff fits nicely into a discussion over on my thread. Gonna paste it in there.

TTFN,
Andy

HMMM this is most interesting for me to read. This whole thing on secrets and trust. I think I am a step or two behind you Zedman.
Will post this next bit to my own thread too and see what come of it.

Today is the day that H is going out for dinner with his very small working group for the big projecxt he was working on in which the FC(Fantasy Chick) is included along with the female confidante friend, a third regular workie, the boss and one other guy. sigh... They are going to a nice restaurant early after work, and I have this urge to do all kinds of nutbar things- calling his work and leaving an anonymous message for FC that she has to be somewher else at dinner time, calling H and telling me I also have a meeting at same restaurant with some friends and I'll see him there... to just freaking showing up, and or asking him to not go. ( too late for the last option...) He did't tell me until this AM that he'd be late.

The good thing... he told me where he was going and that it was the working group. I have never asked who was on the working group but did see a list of members. I don't even know if he knows that I know! Is this a secret or just an omission of fact? Do I ask after the fact and see if he tells me? I am now soooo wound up.

So.... will get through this day somehow and will reflect on secrets, and trust as part of my homework... nice thread Zed.. (poet and doesn't know it!)

t

Zebra...ahte to do this but Im getting funky. What is the title of tha tbook about the children of divorce? Tree thinks that you would know it. I'll check back again later tonight or tomorrow.

Darmar

If it helps... I have both sets of email and can send one to t-ther?
Your decision oh striped one!
TREE [Razz]

Dar...

"The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce" by Judith Wallerstein. It kind controversial, with lot's of critics, but interesting none the less...

Tree...

I don't understand your last post...

z

yeah.. there are days when I am clear as mud! [Big Grin]

What I MEANT was... I have your email, I have Dar's email... if sharing info via email worked better... I could hook you both up...
But the book title is here shared with the world. I see similarities sort of in your sitches... but Dar's W has flown the coop where as your chickie has hung around to keep the nest warm... but the R stuff... close enough.
better?

Way back when, when I was still a whining sniveling pathetic.... I got into an exchange here on the board about contact with the OM, or OP if anyone out there prefers...

I recall talking about whether a "normal" social relationship could ever be developed with the OP. I recall saying something about sometime in the future at a cocktail party, explaining how the OP came to be a "friend", how we met.... ("well, we met back when OP was screwing W. It's a happy memory, and we've been fast friends since"), or something wise-ass like that was what I wrote...

Then, later, I was warned by Arnold that it may in fact turn out that OP/OM may never leave my life, he might just be around, and I might just have to accept that. As much as the books say "complete cut-off", you must end it, or what ever, these are things that we, the left spouse read, and believe -- heck we cling to this. Anyway, Arnold was just pointing out that it was quite possible that OM would be around, and as much as I wished he'd just shrivel up an die, he may not. He said in some situations where the affair was a meeting of minds among the same social circle, there was no other choice if you (or the spouse) was not willing to sever ties with the entire social circle. Arnold is nothing if not a pragmatist.

Yesterday we went to a family 4th of July pool party. As we pulled up, W glanced at me with a look, I'll call it terror, but it was a look. There was OM's car. So, a while ago, I decided I'm not going to be bad, mean, distant or anything to him. I'm going to "act as if" he's just another guy I see a lot. I figure this works for me cuz I don't get my knickers in a twist, and it works for W cuz I don't look like the ugly jealous neanderthal, and it works for OM because he is likely constantly on his guard wondering when I will finally try to kill him... So I was on my best behavior at this party. I laughed, I joked, I chatted with lots of folks, I had nice chatty exchanges even with OM. I did good, I thought. Finally as the day was winding down, W wants to play cards. People are leaving, families are going.... W says "Guys against the girls...." So, my card partner was --- guess who??? So, we played, and I didn't even yell at him once, even when he totally blew the game because he was clueless (W commented about how nice I was to him then, even)...

So, I think I did good. I'm on a campaign to not give W any reason to... whatever. I'm on a campaign to make OM as uncomfortable as hell by my being nice to him. I'm on a campaign to get rid of all the crap that makes me unattractive to anyone at all. But, I wonder sometimes, am I being a doormat? Am I allowing myself to be played as a fool? W still doesn't touch me, doesn't initiate any affection, forget sex. I'm a friendly roommate. I don't snoop, so I don't know what she does... I force myself to trust her. She's out now, left at 8:30 (kid's bedtime, how convienient) will return whenever she feels like it. I don't try to control, I don't ask many questions, she doesn't offer many answers. She does call to tell me when she'll be later than "usual", but of course, I have no way of knowing where she is, or whom she's with....

Am I doing this right, or am I being a doormat, big time????? Now, that asked, I feel good, I feel there's progress, I feel I have succeeded at "Busting" the divorce... But I live in a sexless marriage, a sexless existance with little physical affection, being little more than a cherished roomate and old friend and co-parent, and I can't feel sure W is doing the same. I feel I might be investing more than I should be, and I may be taken for a fool. A long time ago (last summer) I said I could hold out at least till June 2002. I'm feeling tired now. I have "won" by some measure, but I'm feeling more tired, more impatient, more wondering if this is what I want, than I ever did.

Am I being a doormat???

z

wow.....I wouldn't say doormat...I would say amazing and unbelievable...you were NICE to OM?????
I think I need to spend more time learning from you.
A

Hi Z,

As you posted on my thread, we seem to be in the same place (R-wise).

Personally, I don’t feel like a doormat unless W starts presuming too much. By “too much”, I mean that she has expectations of me which I have no right to expect from her.

For example, she made plans to ride (motorcycle) to in-laws with MF and her cousin. The plan included me as the person who would drive our van full of kids and MF’s W. Did she give me the courtesy of asking?

Nope!

But I can’t go back and say no now. It would only be vindictive.

This is one of the things I’d like to tell her about. Problem is, no matter how I word it, she would only hear, “Blah blah blah… You’re a bitch… blah blah blah”

As to you, would it hurt for you to ask more questions? You could approach it as being interested in her. Alternatively, you could phrase it in terms of common courtesy. I’d never dare do the latter, as I’ve just said, but you be the judge of whether or not it’s appropriate for you.

TTFN,
Andy

"Personally, I don�t feel like a doormat unless W starts presuming too much. By �too much�, I mean that she has expectations of me which I have no right to expect from her."

Thanks, Andy... This is again good perspective. I have been guilty in the past of resenting her for leaving me as the designated babysitter when she would just leave for the evening... She'd sometimes go for days without seeing daughter, even tho she'd eventually come home very late and leave very early.

But those times have changed. It's another baby step I sometimes over look. She doesn't stay away nearly so long, and usually she lets me know where she'll be. I either know exactly where she is or have a pretty good idea. She also almost always asks if it's ok if she goes out when in the past, she just stated it.

Sometimes I just get down, and get impatient. Now it's July, I can move on and reflect upon how I've made it this far. Good for me.

Thursday is our first real session with our new C. It's the 4th session, but the first 3 were the priliminaries of "meet both of us, then meet each indivudually". Now, we get to the work. This is one of those situations where I have to be very careful of how I set my expectations... I have to take it for exactly what it is, and not allow myself to see a vast change based on one session.

I'll keep you all posted.

z

I just had something happen that makes me smile...

It's one of those good thing bad thing things... I had an unbearable urge to snoop. In the most recent past (last snoop was in January), I snooped to "catch her doing it right". I figured snooping would show me that my fears were unfounded and that she was as trustworthy as I hoped she'd be. Well, I found I was wrong, I found evidence of lies and meetings with OM, and that most of the fears I had were totally founded. I felt like the lowest of the low, like I couldn't go on. I found that the only way I would be able to keep a PMA was to stop snooping.

So, as I've said before, it's like an addiction. I eats at you, it pulls you. You feel down, you want to snoop. So I did. I snooped in her 2 "secret" Hotmail accounts. She knew I knew about one, but from what I could tell, only she and OM knew of the other. I've been squirrelly, and I felt down, and I wanted to know what's really up with OM, so I snooped. And I got messages from both accounts saying that they had been shutdown from lack of activity. Finally, I think I've caught her doing something right through my snooping...

Not that I'm going to do anymore. Just thought I'd come clean here. Now you can all admonish me. Mea culpa.

z

Things are definitely looking up. Great new counselor, W opening up, and a positive recon mission. It is also good to know that even the "great one" needs some "recon" once in a while. Awesome job of being "nice" to OM at the party but I agree with your "doormat" concerns. That is a tough call that is such an individual decision.

TBONE

Thanks t,

I guess I've been at this so long that I get worn down pretty easily. Where once all I did was look for 'baby steps', now I don't so readily notice them. Where once I compared today to 6 months ago, I now find my self comparing today to last week, and hence see little change.

Today was C. I came away feeling down. Sex came up, and I suppose that I accidentally place the wrong emphasis on it, or maybe they both expect me to. If it's mentioned (C started it) it always seems that I am blamed for making it a bigger deal than it really is to me, and there's a shut down. It's very frustrating to be misunderstood, as well as to have the subject of sex almost always become a sore subject.

Anyway, that was not what got me down. At one point, C asked W if she still wanted to continue with the marriage. W said "it's easier than getting out". Great, my W who once said the among the reasons she was unhappy with the marriage because she felt she was just "settling" for it is now just "settling" for it. I don't know it this is good or bad... if this is frustrated fatigue with her internal conflicts and battles or a realistic lowering of expectations. It doesn't feel good tho.

I'm tired and I don't know if I want to go on with this. I'm tired of being blamed for her unhappiness, and help responsible for her happiness. Though today she said that she has certainly noticed my changes, and complimented me on them, in the next breath she says something that essentially says she's not confident it can work based on things that happened in the past. She told C today about incidents from the past and told her this was within the past 6 months... by my memory, there has been no such incident in 3 years.... but it's still vivid in her memory. How do you beat the ghost of the errors of your past? So, W sees positive change, compliments me about it, but is fearful of the past, can't see the future, and finds the present totally unacceptable. But, once again will not end the marriage or leave, nor does she really do anything to change it.

I'm beginning to feel like I'm hitting myself in the head with a hammer so it will feel good when I stop...

So, off tomorrow for a 10 day family vacation... Our assignment from the C.... be playful. I'm tired. W's skeptical. Should be fun. I'll let you know when I get back...

z

I really feel for you and your situation. Until your W gives up the OM and her "single" lifestyle it can't work. Too bad she just won't "give in" to the marriage and focus on it. I certainly understand why you are tired. You stand on your head while juggling and she still just does what she wants and calls it her contribution to the M. I would just love to reach out and shake her for you. My SIL did this same thing and tried to rationalize her behavior to herself and everyone around her. Your patience is amazing and has kept you in the game but it may take a different tactic to help you win the game. I am not going to make any recommendations but it sure seems to ba a stalemate right now.

I hope you have a great vacation and maybe the time away from the OM will open her eyes somewhat. My prayers are with you.

TBONE

Back from vacation. We had a good time. W's been goofing on me, we've been having a good time and fun. Slowly moving ahead. Still. Patience.

Next C session on Thursday. I'm going to keep my mouth shut and see if C can pull anything out of W. Let see if we can find out what she needs to begin to "feel I'm in love with Z again".

Later
z

Hey there... welcome back!

best with C... nice moves...
we're picking out toilets together... [Roll Eyes]

( for his throne and reading room??) [Big Grin]

Yes, the C sessions are something I look forward to a bit too much, I think, because I still notice the I regard them as holding the solution to our problems. W once called it "giving the C too much power".

I've noticed that I wait for momentous things to happen during C, for validation from C. That, or course doesn't happen. Usually I get a bit too needy, or at least need to say things I haven't said, and I feel I'm misunderstood, and then the session becomes about clarifying what I meant. Meanwhile, W can withdraw into what ever shell she has built and none of her issues come out. When I can "withdraw", usually things can come out of her, but often quite "coded"... It's a tedious process, but it works.

I've got to notice that I need to just shut up for a bit, and answer questions, and not editorialize. Then I must listen to more of what W is saying, and more of C's suggestions. I must avoid the urge to get my issues stated and my questions answered, because this tends to mire the session in me alone.

I get terribly needy at times, and lately I've been feeling that way a lot, though I don't think I present it to most of the world anywhere near to the degree I feel it.

z

Good self analysis Zed Man... ya... you like a good rant I know .... so... getting you to zip up so W can spout off.... is a good play.

AS for neediness.... I would imagine that's more a need to feel loved and appreciated that you aren't getting from W at the moment. That's the tougher one, and I see that as one of the main reasons that many of guys here in particular give up so quickly... that need to be needed, in whatever form that takes. You, my friend, have really given it A TON of work... your patience is awesome... you can teach some of the guys here a real lesson in patience.

SO... get the duct tape slap some over the mouth before heading into your C session... and perhaps things will be a little different. For your own need to rant ... perhaps some solo C?

I know you've been there, but once in awhile... yakking with someone on yr own.. might be less censorious?

t

Sorry for not posting in a while, but I've been away...

Last C session was a good one. We again got into a "let's beat up Zebra" session, I felt cornered by C, W sat there. C has remarked a couple of times how she's noticed how much we "care" for each other, how we "protect" each other. Anyway, this "cornering" started when C asked how the time since the last session had gone... I said we really hadn't seen each other much, W had been out. Well, the truth was I had been out. Work got busy, and I was not home. Work has been terrifyingly slow for months, so I just forgot that I'd actually been away from the house... a break in the routine. And, W HAD been out a couple of nights... Out generally means out sometime between 6-8pm, home after midnight. Same pattern as from the heat of the affair, just home a little earlier. C homed right in on my resentment of this, even tho I don't really feel much overt resentment anymore. It's just what is... C wanted to know how this makes me feel. Finally, I said it makes me feel abandoned. W goes out, comes home after D and I have gone to bed. Night after night, or at least 2-5 nights a week (it's gotten a lot better in the past couple of months). I told C that there was a time that I KNEW what she was doing from snooping... that I read the recap of the gorey details. (I didn't say this, but it was like reading porn, except my wife was one of the writers, and a participant). Anyway, after months of that, I knew that almost everything I heard from her was lies and deception. I had desensitized myself to all this for sake of my sanity. I had no choice. Then, she said she would end the affair, that she would work on us. But, the social patterns, the nights out, the late nights really changed little. I told C that I had learned to trust, but that sometimes it just crashed in on me, and I got a bit flipant in my remarks. I told C that W still went out, even admitting that sometimes he was there, and to top it off I was shackled to the house as caretaker of a small child and couldn't checkup on her if I wanted to. I told C (and W) that sometimes my ability to blindly trust was tested and challenged.

When I finished, W had a tear in her eye.

C gave us an exercise. We were to hold hands, the one at a time, one of us closed our eyes as the other stared at the other. Then, the looker described what they saw, felt, thought. I learned that W cares about me. Deeply. She said she really wants it to work. She made it clear that she knows it's still a lot about her. It felt pretty good, but hard. Actually, I like the C sessions that feel hard. that make us think.

So, now I've been away for a couple of weeks (talk about trust....). While I was gone, she called me more than I called her, and she sent me mindless little cute notes on my cellphone text messaging. Nice, warm, fun stuff. We had lots of fun chats, even when I had to cut her off and run (Cellphones do have there good points). When I got home this morning sometime after 1am, she came down and sat and chatted. I had been in a timezone 3 hours removed, so I was well awake. She just came down to chat. Nice.

This afternoon, she was going out with D, but D bailed out. W came into the living room where D and I were sitting and said "Well, I still love ya, but I'm off". I spun around in the chair, thinking of course that W was talking to D, only to see her looking at me with a huge sh-- eating grin on her face... She came over to where D and I were sitting, put her arm around me and gave me a squeeze, and gave D a peck on the cheek. (Did all this really happen?!?!?, Naaaaa......) That, too, was really nice.

So, I'm back to watching the baby steps. Two weeks away.... sometimes you have to remove yourself from the situation to notice the progress. Sometimes you have to detach and maintain your distance....

I'm feeling good tonight.

z

Yesterday was another interesting day...

We went to a wedding. Seems one of the SSW has bitten the dust. She got married yesterday. The rest of the local chapter of the SSW, including the OM, was there... (SSW is the Sisterhood of Separated Women, a society dedicated to expanding their membership through encouraging others to end their marriages and join their ranks. Sometimes, sparated Men are allow honorary membership. Even SSW needs occasional Male companionship.) On the way there, we drove past the OM pulling out of his condo complex. W grabbed my knee and gave it a squeeze. I grabbed her hand and kissed it and said thanks, you're nice.

Later, after the wedding, there was another pool party, and when we arrived, OM's car was there, as like last time. I kind of took a deep breath (been reading Deida, and he's really into breathing and "keeping you front open"... it works). W said, are you OK with this??? I said sure, and made like OM wasn't my issue... I said are you OK? So the day went fine.

Interestingly, OM made no effort to talk to me, made no effort to be friendly (he usually does... some kind of fascade or foil or provocation... who knows which). Since I've been being friendly to him, initiating chatty conversations, he has withdrawn somewhat, it seems. Interesting...

Anyway, I'm still backing way off in any hostility toward him. I used to kind of "growl" at him in private -- when we passed in a private hall, if we chanced upon each other in a store. Now, I'm cooly friendly, socially cordial. Like you would be with a vague aquaintance. He is still part of W's social circle, especially tennis. He's still on her main team, thought not her direct playing partner. She still see a lot of him, but I don't believe ever alone, only with the group, and the others on her team are all happyily married. She seems also to be spending more time with happily marrieds, and avoiding the SSW -- to the point of holding them in contempt.

So, here's my wonder, the reason for the post... As I mentioned, she occasionally makes motions to reassure me when he's around. She occasionally askes if I'm OK with the casual contact I have with him. I'd like to ask her how she's doing with her casual contact with him. If she's got pangs, if she sees that contact as a conflict to our improving. If she ever is torn about what her current relationship path and partner should be, and if she would or could like to talk about it. I know this is really an off limits area in general, but in the context of being her friend, I wonder if I open up to the possibility of talking about her feelings here... if I can open up a new level of trust and therefore further break down secrets and increase intimacy by showing her that I am willing to, and can be her must trusted and supportive confidant even in the most difficult of topics... The key is to be totally detached, to be completely unjudgemental and unconditionally supportive.

I haven't a clue how to pursue this approach. I'm scared to death to try. But I believe it could work. Anyone have any ideas???

z

[ August 18, 2002, 08:14 AM: Message edited by: Zebra ]

Hi Z,

I don't think you can talk about her feelings wrt OM "as a friend."

I think that when we talk to someone "as a freind", we have to be detached from the situation, and you�re intertwined to much in this area. Yes, a friend shows sympathy and empathy, but they�re not, and never were part of it.

If your W had a falling out with her best GF, she wouldn�t talk to her about it �as a friend.�

D�ya get my drift?

IMHO, this is an area you should pretty much stay away from unless she brings it up.

That doesn�t� mean that you can�t talk about feelings � hers or yours. There�s gotta be lotsa other things happening in your lives that you can share.

But there are some things that a person just wants to work out for themselves � without support. If she wants your support on this, let her ask for it.

It could also be perceived as trying to prove that you're supportive, rather than showing true support.

Andy

Thanks, Andy. Grounding is always good. You're probably right, it wouldn't do much good, but I'm gonna store it away in the back of my mind anyway. Just not act on it right now.

My sitch has run rampant with things that work that have generally run against the "common wisdom". I suppose it comes from one knowing his own situation best, and having to take that leap of faith from time to time. She actually finally agreed to stop the divorce proceedings after a horrendous fight where I brought up the OM and told her I wouldn't tolerate her being with him any more. Another time (later), she simply broke down one day sobbing on the kitchen floor. I went over to her, wrapped her up in my arms and told her how much I felt for her, how much I knew she must be hurting from her decision to leave him, how hard it must all be. I know this hit home in a big way, because she brought it up in C, saying how much it meant to her.

So, though this latest idea might be dumb, the essense of its empathetic nature could be powerful. Maybe I just need to keep track of that desire to empathize and "act as if...", instead of overtly making the statements...

Thanks, my friend. Your perspective it always valued.

z

The way I see it, Z. You can�t talk to your �friend� with a view to change her feelings/views of something that you�re intimately involved with. I know you want to show her that you�re open to talk to her on any topic, but I think you�re right to stow it for now.

I have issues that I�m feeling better about right now, but it isn�t far enough in the past to talk to W about. I�m aching to express my views, but I think they�re gonna hafta be relegated to distant past before I can bring �em up. I mean, it�s gonna hafta be years.

Remember the ole expression, �Time is on your side.�

Andy

Hi Z!

I finally made it over here! I read through your thread and it sounds like you've come a LONG way. I hope things continue on that path. I really appreciate your advice and support.

Quote:

I'd like to ask her how she's doing with her casual contact with him. If she's got pangs, if she sees that contact as a conflict to our improving. If she ever is torn about what her current relationship path and partner should be, and if she would or could like to talk about it. I know this is really an off limits area in general, but in the context of being her friend, I wonder if I open up to the possibility of talking about her feelings here... if I can open up a new level of trust and therefore further break down secrets and increase intimacy by showing her that I am willing to, and can be her must trusted and supportive confidant even in the most difficult of topics... The key is to be totally detached, to be completely unjudgemental and unconditionally supportive.

Wow, you took the thoughts right out of my head, I mean the exact thoughts. Although I know I'm not ready to do this yet, I think at some point I will be and when I am I probably will.

Your counselor sounds great, ours just tried to do something like yours but H wanted NOTHING to do with it. So, I don't know where to go with that.

I hope things are going well for you. I'm always checking in here now to see if you've checked in.

Take care of yourself.

Laney

Hey Zedman... we've got groupies!

Thanks Laney... between me Zee and I'd also suggest Peanut's threads... these are not books... these are epics!!LOL
Hey Zee... dontcha have a Birthday coming up... you're older again!

tree

Quote:
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I'd like to ask her how she's doing with her casual contact with him. If she's got pangs, if she sees that contact as a conflict to our improving. If she ever is torn about what her current relationship path and partner should be, and if she would or could like to talk about it. I know this is really an off limits area in general, but in the context of being her friend, I wonder if I open up to the possibility of talking about her feelings here... if I can open up a new level of trust and therefore further break down secrets and increase intimacy by showing her that I am willing to, and can be her must trusted and supportive confidant even in the most difficult of topics... The key is to be totally detached, to be completely unjudgemental and unconditionally supportive.
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When this was first posted, I was not in a good frame of mind, but now I seem to be back on a even keel.

I had attempted to go this route with my W, but she wouldn't allow it because the thought proccess she needed to go through required her to search her feeling with total honesty. When it relates to OP, that can be BRUTAL as they contemplate "...why can't I be with them?..." or even "...why can't I be with BOTH?...". I only learned some insight to her thoughts because she would journal them to help sort through them and I read it while snooping.

They don't want to include you in this process because they feel it will hurt you and they don't want to add more hurt than they already have or deal with the guilt brought on by the additional hurt. Fearing such an outcome will most likely make them uncomfortable to talk to you on this topic.

If you like to read more details about my experience with this stop by my thread...

'til later,
KAW

gee tree,

thanks for the plug, but my thread was butchered in the last board switch. may have to put Nigel or someone to work to fix it. seems it didn't like the 60 page intro post.

wish I had time or energy, but I'm home with a kid and a monk and they're keeping me quite busy.

best,

g

My first post to the new forum format. I'm a-skeered I might mess up!!!!

Good to see you here Laney. I just stopped by. I'm on kind of a "board moritorium" for now. I find the board gets to me after awhile, so I frequently take sebaticals.

Once again, you have shown me, and hopefully yourself, how similar so many situations are. When I first learned this, it was a breath of fresh air to realize I was not alone. I helps me by helping me understand that I was not totally responsible for all this, and helps me understand that I can't fix it all. And, that if I can't fix it, it doesn't mean that I'm bad, or a failure.... that there is another involved with this, and that there are somethings I cannot control.

Also, it show me that my situation is unique in some ways, in that there are really no rules here, other than to keep doing what works, and stop doing what doesn't, and always look for more things that do work. I find all the pretty easy. One thing I find hard is to try something different that I fear might backfire, but seems to make sense. I have found that taking risks and sticking my neck out, I have made some of the best moves in rebuilding trust. I've done some damage also, but not nearly as much as when I "get it right". It's frightening, but it feels really good when it works.

I've not followed up on the idea I recently mentioned, but I keep looking for opportunities to show my support and empathy. The key to broaching something this deep and personal in the WS is to not push it. It's important to realize how much importance we place on somethings that may actually offend the other, and realize that much of the urge is to make ourselves feel better. We must remember that so often, it ain't about us. Then, when we can look beyond those things that are important to us, we can better see those that are important to them, and see how the opportunities to do things that build the trust and intamacy. That's how I try to operate, and I struggle with maintaining the patience to do it.

You all here help me with that. Thanks.

z

KAW

I hear that. I see that all the time, where I'm sure she's withdrawn to deal with her own demons. It's exactly those times where I try to see what I can do to let her know that I support her and I'm here if she needs a friend. The bad thing is that I sometimes wish I could get her to do the same back, but she's just not ready. I mean, there are times I just wish she'd acknowledge that she's put me through hell. That she's just acknowledge that she knows I'm hurting too. Or, that she'd just let me in a little bit, and allow us both to heal a little by allowing each other to see the pain.

I see that the only way this can happen is by my offering loving support, non-judgement, and being there for her. I see that my agenda is irrelavent for now, and probably for ever. I must keep reminding myself that it's not about me. As Don Miguel Ruis says.... "don't take anything personally". (from "the four agreements"). I know that I sometimes get needy, I just have to not show it too much to her.

z

Yeah, I had a birthday.... in July. I'm 38 now.... Guess I'm catching you, tree

38 my a$$

LOL

Sheez!

Babes, all of you. I'm a young 44.

LOL 49 here.

Zebra, I just saw you on Biscayne's thread, and came here out of curiosity. I am so impressed at your patience and the sensitivity you have shown. You have also helped me put the whole process into perspective. Somehow I thought when H said he wanted to try again, that it would be a Disney ending, happily ever after. But the roller coaster does not stop, it is not magic, it is the same hard work to be patient while they waffle, understanding as they make up their mind and finally make a committment, and sane as the OM/OW continues to exist on the same planet with you. Thank you. I am both inspired and dismayed as I read your thread and realize the hard road ahead.