Solution thinking-cap corner - DivorceBusting.com

What have others done...heard of being done... wished they could do

about the age old issue of expressing one's needs without it coming across to their beloved as criticism?

I've tried "I messages", well chosen words, asking for simple concrete actions that would solve the problem, choosing the best time, using the best tone of voice I can find, pointing out positives....OK maybe I haven't done all these per fect ly and at the same time...

I have found that it helps to choose carefully what to address and then to do so as best as I can as soon as possible. It does not seem to help me or my H to stuff it. I remember once reading in some relationship book about the 3Cs: cope, care, confront. I have needed to learn about and use the first two in a big way in my relationship with my H. Also I've confronted things about myself that I was blind to--we all know this is a life time project. But where does confronting each other for the sake of a honest, genuine relationship fit. It seems like there's got to be a way to lovingly, constructively tell the truth about what one is experiencing. Not overtell it, not blame each other, not allow onesself to be insensitive to the other, but genuinely share. Isn't that what intimacy is?

On the other hand...I have been doing better about taking care of my needs myself. Maybe unconditional love and forgetting about my H doing anything about my needs is the answer. Maybe being his best friend and listening to his troubles is the answer.

My dear H has been working non-stop and when we spend time together guess what he talks about...our life together ...not! work of course! I have spent all of our marriage doing everything I could (moving, leaving family, quitting my career, listening, counseling, advising untold hours) to support him in his work. Surely, something was wrong with this picture. Surely, staying in the same old pattern out of "unconditional love" is not the answer.

What does "unconditional love" with boundaries that allow one to have a happy, fulfilling, strong self, look like?

Concrete Questions: What to do when H talks about work more than 20 minutes and I can tell there's lots more coming?

A. Actively listen.
B. Go to the bathroom, get a wet rag and throw it at him.
C. Very politely tell him I have some work for my new job that I need to do.
D. Very potitely tell him I'm going for a jog. Take out all my frustration on the road.
E. Other

[ October 03, 2001: Message edited by: alottolearn ]

I've had some good results with storytelling. I make up long elaborate and always humorous stories involving "a friend of mine" and tell w these stories. The more graphic and compelling the story, the better. She has responded much better to these more oblique references than to direct requests/arguments/fights.

Why not listen to what he wants to talk about and then follow that discussion with one that you have interest in.

alot of H's don't like OR talks cus the discussions tend to turn accusatory and confrontational. The trick is to discuss OR stuff in a spouse friendly manner. You should be able to discuss what is bothering you. Just keep it about you and your feelings rather than what H has done. Example, tell him what he is doing that you appreciate and ask for more of something he does not provide. Then let it go. Don't even look at him like he needs to respond. If he responds, chances are good he will be defensive. That is not what you want.

I don't pursue W for OR talks at all anymore (well almost). I have told her what I need more of and accept that it up to her to provide it. I have "zero" expectations in that regard and find that I am pleasantly surprised when she "comes thru" with compliments or an "I luv you" or whatever. I don't presume that W has figured out her crisis yet nor is she toatally out of it just because I have achieved center.

Use gentle guidance.

I'm not sure if this makes any sense.

[ October 04, 2001: Message edited by: KentS ]

I've found that just about any technique (I messages, oblique references, …. Whatever) can be sabotaged by your spouse's preconceptions. If your spouse sees these techniques as "tricks" to manipulate him/her, he/she will not hear the words, but only accusations (that they haven't done enough).

I've found that actions speak louder than words. I respond as best I can to W's needs without the expectation that she'll reciprocate. So, for now, I simply do NOT express my needs. I wait for her to ask. It's a slow process, but she's starting to reciprocate.

Bottom line: if W is to do things for me, it has to come from HER. Not me.

ANS/ALTL,
The difference here is that Alot's spouse is not embroiled in the negativity associated with spouses in Newcomers. Tell me if I'm wrong "Alot" but you both are moving forward with your lives in a somewhat centered fashion.

Alot needs to be able to communicate her needs to her H just as he needs to tell her about his work day. It's how he deprograms himself. She needs to deprogram as well.

The question is how to reach him. This is where "trying something new" still comes into play. I still communicate my needs to my W. However, I have changed my approach. For me, less works better than more. I decide what the message is that I need to deliver to W. I take time to prepare it, decide if it is really important, fine tune it and then wait for the opportunity to deliver it. It may take weeks for me to complete the communication. Then I let it go. It's kinda like planting a seed. I try to assure I plant it in moist fertile ground and then wait to see if it sprouts.

I'm not saying this will work for you. I'm merely showing you how I did something different to achieve a better situation.

If your H still gets defensive and upset with all OR conversations, your H probably is still off center and you should consider the detatching philosophy that ANS eludes to.
I kinda get the impression that your H is not off center as much as he does not respond well to a direct approach. If the direct approach does not work, try using more indirect approaches.

Kent,

I couldn't agree with you more. It all comes down to doing more of what works and less of what doesn't, doesn't it?

I guess that one thing we all have to remember is that "what works" is a moving target. Like I said, my W isn't open to me stating my needs.

Or is she?

To be honest, I'm not quite sure. But until I'm reasonably certain, I wont slide back into what hasn't worked in the past. So, I test the waters from time to time with little requests.

ANS,
Good for you for trying. The trick is to start small and try different approaches. I was a big time pursuer of my W. The fact is it smothered her. Now, I rarely pursue in any form. Relatively speaking, she has become the pursuer. It's different, but at least it works.

My pursuit is limited to positive support. I make a point of complimenting her when it is deserved and I do small positive stuff for her on a regular basis. Nothing big. I tried that route and it did not work.

One thing for sure is the more positive you can be, the more people want to be around you. It's human nature. That includes WAS's.

In regards to stating a need of yours, your right, if W offers no opportunity, you can't do it. You probably sense your W is still holding you at a distance trying to protect her space and identity. You will also sense when that changes. Keep trying different small positive things to soften her up. When I say small, I mean smaaaaall. For instance, if you buy flowers for her, it is a blatant attempt that can be rebuked. If you open a door for her, it could be out of your gentlemanly habit that you do cus your a great guy. She could still rebuke it, but she will be unsure if she was justified. You want her to be unsure when she responds in a negative manner.

[ October 04, 2001: Message edited by: KentS ]

Kent,

Yeah, I guess I’ve come to the same conclusion as you. Try different approaches. And, like I said, don’t throw out an approach that didn’t work before. It’s possible that as things change, you can use it. But use it with caution. You don’t want to get stung with “You ALWAYS…..”

I tried the compliments. W said I was using them to make her feel guilty, so I stopped. But, I’ve started them again in a scaled back manner, and it seems to be OK.

quote:
Originally posted by KentS:
One thing for sure is the more positive you can be, the more people want to be around you. It's human nature. That includes WAS's

Truer words were never spoken!

Thanks for the input! Yes Kent, my H says he's committed to our relationship. Last month my H was leaving for work before I got up and coming home after I went to bed--the poor guy was pretty sleep deprived--and we had very little time together. When this happens as it will continue to every now and then our relationship suffers. Michele and most other experts agree time together is an important factor. My H is struggling with his career and hopefully will turn a corner at some point and have a chance at a more reasonable life

Here is what happened. I won't even talk about all the yuck and history that surrounded the weekend, it would take up too much time and space!!! but believe me on numerous fronts it was tough. HOWEVER, after giving him a very nice birthday, I expressed some needs the next day. He was majorly bummed. However, you'll never guess, after a couple of days of keeping distance but being nice to him we started having a better time together a little bit at a time. For two nights in a row now we've even had great sex !!! Last night we still talked about his work longer than anything else but there were 4 or 5 other subjects and he didn't repeat himself quite so much.

Here is one of the reasons why talk about work bugs me: sorry if this seems like a step backwards to go here but I'm hoping to just get it off my chest so I can breathe: he and OW didn't talk about work--they were co-workers so they should have been but they talked about their relationship, their fantasy future I could use a little romance myself!!!!!

Anyway, the bottom line is that the last couple of days has convinced me that he is trying in his own way and it's going to be OK.

I still would like to find a better way to talk about needs because even if this way worked in the end, it hurt him and I don't want to do that.

MF I will try stories like you suggest. I think that's a great idea. Part of it is that if I can keep my creative juices flowing then I don't get down in the dumps. My dear H gets very depressed pretty easily when I'm unhappy. Anything I can do to stay upbeat is a plus.

Kent wrote
"The question is how to reach him. This is where "trying something new" still comes into play. I still communicate my needs to my W. However, I have changed my approach. For me, less works better than more. I decide what the message is that I need to deliver to W. I take time to prepare it, decide if it is really important, fine tune it and then wait for the opportunity to deliver it. It may take weeks for me to complete the communication. Then I let it go. It's kinda like planting a seed. I try to assure I plant it in moist fertile ground and then wait to see if it sprouts."

I'm going to meditate on that and try it!

Here is the gold prize alright:

"The trick is to discuss OR stuff in a spouse friendly manner."

Hmmmm how to do that? There must be hundreds of ways.

[ October 10, 2001: Message edited by: alottolearn ]

Probably thousands of ways, perhaps only a hundred of these will work for you.

Keep searching ALTL. I am.

Remember, your H said he is committed. Don't assume he fully understands what that means yet. You have come too far to turn around now.

I consider life an education process. I have learned so much in the past year. I use to be so biased and ignorant. Now I'm a tad bit better. I'm gonna keep workin on enlightenment. What about you ?

Ho, ho, oh Yes I'm headed forward. I've been thinking a lot about carefully crafting messages about how life can be better for my H and I. Will report more later.

For most this will seems obvious but for me (a born pursuer) this is a big step: Over the past month I've gotten used to not having my H around and have gotten involved in quite a few activities in my community. So, this week I'm suggesting that my H work late two nights.

I'm doing more to take care of my own needs so looking to him less.

One part concerns me: I still feel like I'll never trust him with my heart again--that doesn't make me love him less. It's a lot like loving a child--I accept all the responsibility for the emotional relationship both giving to him and not asking for anything in return. I'm not sure if this will ever change and it is not my idea of a healthy marriage but it's all I got. It is quite sobering. I feel more "adult" than I ever have--suppose it's good for one's repertoire but generally I've thought "adult" to be overrated.

It feels like we are on separate tracks not like we are partners. It's not all bad. Does this sound familiar?

Is the solution to embrace this separateness?

alottolearn,
I'm struggling with the same feelings. I feel like it's my job to meet HIS needs AND it's my job to meet MY needs. There's just no fairness or equity in it.

Not only do I feel like the only adult in the home, but I tend to think of him as retarded since he just does not get the simplest of things, i.e. when you cheat on someone, you cannot expect them to trust you again without some effort on YOUR part.

I tend to get through each day by living in two worlds, the inner and the outer. My inner world protects me from the insanity of the outer world lived with him. I have found it futile to share my inner world with him, so I keep it to myself. I'm very protective of the inner (real) me.

Harmony

Wow,
Ladies you have struck a chord. I have been thinkin about this quite a bit myslef. I have decided to adopt a "benefit of the doubt" perspective. I think our spouses are just as scared about what happened as we are. I also think they are hurt inside to the point that they are unsure about trusting us.

I can relate to the unfamiliar sensation of living lives separate rather than as single entity (couple). I am working to balance this as I realize my goals are not identical to my W's. She needs her separateness. It's something that has always eluded her. Me, I always had it and I want to be a family man. So, I accept her desire and fulfill more of my need with my kids. It's still a win/win/win situation. It's just the balance that has shifted.

W, on the other hand, is appreciative of the time she gets to work on defining herself. She shows it with small words and small deeds. I have discovered that this is her way.

I think trust returns in small doses if we allow it to. However, we never get back to our original position of "blind trust". I'm not so sure this is a bad thing.

I can also say I don't give W ready access to the me inside. I also have found she does not want ready access, just limited access.

Keep searching, but don't overlook the possibility that it is front of your nose.

Kent

Hi,

I was just saying something like what Harmony says above to ANS on another thread...

"I tend to get through each day by living in two worlds, the inner and the outer. My inner world protects me from the insanity of the outer world lived with him. I have found it futile to share my inner world with him, so I keep it to myself. I'm very protective of the inner (real) me."

Sometimes I feel like I'm two people living, sometimes floundering, inside one body.

I still have ugly/bad thoughts but I have learned to detach myself from the feelings associated with them and make it like it happened to the other me.

I am so much more reserved than I used to be (I know, some would say that's not a bad thing! ). I often wonder if I am acting or if this new me is the real me (?). I also tend to not let H see how I really feel, and I know that is not a good thing. I have toned it WAY down, but often to the point of stoicism.

But then, like Kent says about his W and limited rather than ready access, perhaps this is how he wants it? Sure feels lonely sometimes, huh.

Have any of y'all been able to get the 'two of you' to meet?

As far as the trust issue goes, it can be had to some degree again, but it definitely must be earned, and on a daily basis. The blind 100% trust I once held for my marriage is gone. And, once again like Kent says, it's not a bad thing. I held my H with such high regard and to such a high standard - he just was not able to meet it, I was unfair to him.

I can SO relate to the adult/child thing too....

WOW! I mean WOW!

quote:
Originally posted by Harmony:
I'm struggling with the same feelings. I feel like it's my job to meet HIS needs AND it's my job to meet MY needs. There's just no fairness or equity in it.

I think we have to let go of the whole notion of equity. When we feel this way, resentment builds. At the same time, our SO is very likely feeling the same way. So we end up in a pissing contest.

I've found that in order to get on the same team, we've gotta stop keeping score. I've always thought of myself as a giving person until my W blasted me as being controlling. I guess that the way I divided up the responsibilities made W feel like SHE had the lions share, and I wasn't listening when she complained. So now, without pointing it out to her, I'm doing as much of "her" responsibilities as I can. It seems to me that she's taking advantage of this. In her mind, I owe her. But, gradually, she's taking some of the responsibility back.

quote:
Originally posted by KentS:
W, on the other hand, is appreciative of the time she gets to work on defining herself. She shows it with small words and small deeds. I have discovered that this is her way.
I think trust returns in small doses if we allow it to. However, we never get back to our original position of "blind trust". I'm not so sure this is a bad thing.
I can also say I don't give W ready access to the me inside. I also have found she does not want ready access, just limited access.

I think that part of the WAW phenomenon is that women, and especially stay-at-home-moms (like my W) get swollowed up in the caretaker role. They lose themselves. So, at this point in time, our Ws don't feel a "need" for a close R. They want to fill the gap in their lives, and that doesn't include us. This is when they need space, and that's when us guys start to pursue.

Kent, I agree that our goals are never identical. But we always have common goals. It's really a matter of which goals are most important to each of us. When our spouse's most important goal is to define themselves, and ours is a closer R, conflict arises. But if we can let them pursue their goals - even help them with them - then the relative importance of those goals will diminish. When that happens, the common goals will bubble to the surface.

Harmony, ALTL:

To me, it looks like you're embarking on the same path. Your Hs are content to let you take care of the R. They figure it's your problem. IMHO, the solution is (as Harmony said) to embrace the separateness. BUT, at the same time, don't give in to it. Maybe your Hs won't help you work on your R right now, but don't let that stop you. It's a balancing act.

Me2,
Until our priorities shift in such a way as they get closer together, I think we have to split ourselves in two. It's a way of keeping order in the chaos. But, like I said, if we help our spouses with their goals (outer world), eventually, we'll be able to let them into our inner world.

[ October 11, 2001: Message edited by: ANS ]

I agree,

It is a way I try to keep my sanity. And, I would love to let him back in-but I'm not so sure he wants back in. I have not been able to help him with his goals as you suggested b/c I don't think I really know what they are...or if I ever did. Past the 'life with you, growing old together' stuff, and don't get me wrong, I am SO fortunate to hear that-(although it's still somewhat hard to 100% believe)--but past that, I really don't know what he wants-or who he is.

I've stopped worrying about it so much tho, and that too has helped. I will be here if/when he is ready.

A note about the stay-at-home Mom...I was one for ~2 years, left a high-stress, high-optempo, high-responsibility career to be a Mom. Don't regret the decision at all, and I really can relate to what you said about how they tend to lose themselves...I sure did.

Ironically however, we moved-I went back to work full time (and within 2 weeks hated my job!) lived in a hotel for 30 days until we bought a house-arranged for and put the kids back into full time daycare-ALL within the span of about 2 months....then H left for a year deployment overseas. I still had not unpacked anything but a few pots/pans and our clothes. And I was alone. (oh, don't forget about the 2 dogs-and no fenced back yard!!!)

It sounds like such a recipie for WAW doesn't it? Based on some stories I've heard, you could almost bet I would have been the one that cheated....I have wanted to ask H for a while, but won't, what gave HIM the right to cheat when I was the one left with all the family responsibility/new house/job/no freinds....no family...and he was overseas with only himself to look after.(?) I know his job came with a certain amount of stress, but c'mon....

Just venting....

Another thought,
I no longer feel responsible for fulfilling my W's needs. I will support her search and if she wants and asks for more from me, I will offer it. But I'm done trying to figure it out and I'm done taking responsibility for her not knowing or getting what she needs. We have discussed this and she agrees. I now expect her and trust her to speak-up.

This is a big change over the past year.

Me2,
It's part of the confusion. I still see it in W's actions from time to time. If your H is similar, he probably does not think much about goals or the future or planning on how to achieve goals.

This is not natural human behavior unless there is still pain, confusion or both overiding the desire to plan for the future. In our crisis, my W told our C that she does'nt plan beyond next week.

That was then and now is now. Things have and are changing.

quote:
Originally posted by KentS:
I no longer feel responsible for fulfilling my W's needs.

I agree that we aren’t responsible for ALL of our spouses needs, and we certainly can’t guess what they are.

BUT

Some of their needs should only be fulfilled by us. The easiest example to cite is sex. We could debate whether or not sex is a “need”, but we could also debate intimacy, companionship, friendship…

Yes, there are needs that we aren’t responsible for. Others that we can only help, and others that are completely out of our sphere of influence.

Getting back to the initial question from ALTL: How do we express our needs without it coming across as criticism?

I think that by taking responsibility for some of our spouses needs, helping with others, and not standing in the way of the rest, we can make our spouses more amenable to doing the same thing for us. When our spouse starts to feel more giving, we can start to ask.

Make sense?

Sure it makes sense,

These marriages were/are supposed to be 50/50. Unfortunately sometimes with WAS's and cheating SO's it seems that the left-behinds are up to more like 60-70%.

I like what you say, Andy, about there being a difference in the needs of our spouses, some are definitely ours to fulfill, others we share and others we leave very much alone.

I think what Kent was saying, and please correct me if I'm wrong Kent, that he does not feel responsible (anymore) for his W's need to define herself. In other words, he is no longer putting pressure on himself (and maybe her too) to be 'how' she defines herself.

Am I confusing? I don't think I'm getting at what I'm trying to say.....when I read what Kent said I realized 'yeah, I know what you mean'....for a long time I had defined myself in terms of my H...his soulmate-his best friend-lover, and took great comfort in my realization of myself-through him. I naively thought he did the same...I know now that he does not, and probably never did.

Unrealistic, I realize that now. Unfortunately it took his A to get me to see how unfair my perceptions were. That's a big part of why I was (and I'm trying really hard not to be) angry-but more so with myself, I think.

I need to define myself in terms of ME. It is frustrating tho because as I have mentioned before, I still sometimes feel very split in who I am...the strong independant one who has the world by the horns...and the other one who still bears the wounds inflicted by the betrayal.

L

Yeah, Me2. I read Kent’s comments the same way, and I agree with you/him (assuming we aren’t both misinterpreting what he said). I guess I was just trying to expand on what he said, rather than contradict.

As to you, don’t be angry – especially with yourself. It’s wasted energy. (Yeah, easy to say, eh?)

Ya, you both misunderstood me correctly. I take resposibility for meeting the needs my W wants me to meet and I do it with a smile

However, I no longer take resposibility for determining what that is. For instance. Since you brought up the sex thing. My marriage vows said that we would be faithfull to one another. I do not assume that to mean W will give me sex whenever I want it. Her Libido does not match mine. If W wants to boogie, I am happy to oblige. I used to pursue her all the time until it became an obvious problem. Now I let her be the pursuer (usually). When I was still trying to figure this issue out, I wondered if I pursued so much sex because it was what I wanted or if it was because it was what I perceived she wanted. W was the one who set the minimum quota when we married.

The difference now is that I don't worry about it any more. If W has a sexual itch that needs to be scratched, she needs to take responsibility for initiating and visa versa.

I no longer try to anticipate what she thinks or means. I literally drove myself nuts on this. I have the shrink invoices to prove it.

If W has a need to reinvent herself, again, it is her problem to initiate it and to keep me informed.

What I am trying to say friends is that my guessing days are over. Don't get me wrong, I would hunt down Bin Laden for her. But she needs to ask.

This brings me back to the point when I know W and I began the rebuilding phase. It is when she said the words "I want to try". I knew what these words meant and it was very clear what I needed to do once W said them. That does'nt make the process easy. But, at least I knew she wanted to try. Not many on this BB are in that position. Not many have heard those words and I'm not even sure how many here have spouses that know what "trying" means.

Me2, I am certain we can teach our spouse what trying means. We just need to move like we are walking on ricepaper and they need to want to try.

W and I talk OR periodically now. They are usually breif and too the point. Kinda like a checkup. Again, I learned the hard way not to preannounce these discussions and keep them very short. I stick to that policy even if W initiates OR. Sometimes I even say "lets talk about it some other time". Oh how sweet it is!

Boy. You really got your course mapped out!

quote:
Originally posted by KentS:
However, I no longer take resposibility for determining what that is. For instance. Since you brought up the sex thing. My marriage vows said that we would be faithfull to one another. I do not assume that to mean W will give me sex whenever I want it. Her Libido does not match mine. If W wants to boogie, I am happy to oblige. I used to pursue her all the time until it became an obvious problem. Now I let her be the pursuer (usually). When I was still trying to figure this issue out, I wondered if I pursued so much sex because it was what I wanted or if it was because it was what I perceived she wanted. W was the one who set the minimum quota when we married.
The difference now is that I don't worry about it any more. If W has a sexual itch that needs to be scratched, she needs to take responsibility for initiating and visa versa.

My major issue right now, is the “visa versa” part. I pursued so much that I turned W right off. Not just sexually either. Right now, if I want any kind of intimacy or closeness, I must hold myself back to a “reasonable” level. That means I don’t initiate sex. Touching is limited to a brush of the foot while we’re in bed. No public displays of affection. I asked for, and received a “date” for my birthday (June). We’ve only been out alone together 2 or 3 times since then. She just doesn’t have time for me.

W told me that we could work on our R after I got over my depression, and I haven’t brought it up since then. I know that she thinks that compromize would mean that she has to compromize her independence, and she won’t let me “do that to her again.”

quote:
Originally posted by KentS:
This brings me back to the point when I know W and I began the rebuilding phase. It is when she said the words "I want to try". I knew what these words meant and it was very clear what I needed to do once W said them. That does'nt make the process easy. But, at least I knew she wanted to try. Not many on this BB are in that position. Not many have heard those words and I'm not even sure how many here have spouses that know what "trying" means.

until I can convince W that trying doesn’t mean submitting, I don’t think I can do much more to express my needs.

I agree!

Remind me again, who is the depressed spouse?
Is it you, or was yours the result of W's detatchment?

Sometimes I have trouble deciding this one.

[ October 16, 2001: Message edited by: KentS ]

It’s kinda confusing. In a nutshell…

W pursued. I distanced
W burned out
W recovered
I started working out of country a lot
W adapted and detached
I pursued, W distanced
I burned out

Was my depression because of W’s detachment? Partly, but it was also my work situation, handicapped son, and I guess stress in general.

Ah, the magnificent symmetry in the dances we dance with each other. That’s why DB works—it’s all based on psychological physics! If we can just calmly step back and watch, centered in ourselves, knowing that we are each and all ultimately alone any way, then we have a chance of figuring out how to love these other utterly fascinating humans. I think that’s true not only for our spouses but for all the important people in our lives. It probably even applies to how we interact with each other on a macro level as well.

I think we're learning.

[ October 16, 2001: Message edited by: alottolearn ]

quote:
Originally posted by alottolearn:
Ah, the magnificent symmetry in the dances we dance with each other.

But it's hard when you can't decide who leads.

...or when you still (on some levels) wonder if the partner wants to be dancing in the first place...

I should just be able to read his mind...there-the answer to all my problems!

or, ya just forgot how to dance.
or, your spouse forgot.

me thinks we thinks alike

I suppose when you do something that changes the dance, then you are in the lead. If you are changing things for the better then you're DBing. Even a spouse whose running away is still dancing. Even after a divorce (especially if there are kids) you're still dancing.

We had a same old dance step this am with a twist. This part of the dance is me trying to find some time for our marriage and a tiny bit of social life and my H seeing that as a threat to his work. He had OKd having my coworker and his wife over, then was angling for making this up 3 fold by working all the evenings and bringing things home for every spare moment this weekend. Still after all this time I have not got the don't let them see you cry part down. It doesn't help at all because then he's doing whatever because he feels guilty which leads to resentment sooner or later. Besides that, I deserve better. I don't want that kind of attention--that is not love in my book.

The twist was that he said he would come home this eve and I insisted that he not come home. Usually I'd have accepted him coming home and said thanks but I just couldn't do that again and feel positive about it. I'm starting to have more pride than that. I think this is a step in the right direction.

He has been working so much and some of the affair behaviors have been around--like way less sex than usual. We talked some about this Friday and he has me believeing that there is no new affair. Saddly, I think I'll never give him better than a 50% chance on that score but I've chosen to live with that.

Frankly, I'm somewhat concerned about having my coworker over because my H has a track record of being sullen when we are in a social situation that is important to me. I have been surprised most of the times he has done this (you would think I'd learn) so maybe I can be better prepared if it happens this time. I'm determined to enjoy these people, be sensitive and inclusive with my H, but not miss a beat if he starts acting sullen--that will be his problem and I will not let it affect me.

The bottom line with the work situation has to be get busier myself and let him work all he wants. I have to get over it. This guy doesn't want much of a marriage, that's just the way it is, so I better find other ways to meet my needs that make me happy but don't jepardize the marriage further. What do you think folks?

Why not have your friends over anyway. You don't need him to be there. Let him walk into his own house with parties under way. If all the guy wants to do is work, why not show him you are maintaining and building friendships without him.

Kent

That's one to consider. I have the skills to do this no problem. I've lived as a happy, healthy single person with plenty of good friendships longer than as a married person.

I get thrown by this issue because it has been confusing to me that my H's words and actions don't match. He says he wants to be involved in events, friendships, etc that are important to me (and I think he really does mean it at the time) but then when the opportunities arise about 65% of the time he acts withdrawn or even antagonisticly. As I write this I realize that he is better than he used to be on this. During the affair (for any who don't know it was over 4 years and I didn't have the remotest idea) I operated just like you are describing, I was completely independent of him in my social, and work life. Yet I was the doting wife. Taking care of him in every way so he could be free to do his work was the number one priority.

So what's the solution? #1. Stop whinning and forgive the guy alright, already.
#2. Selectively go back to some of the patterns during the affair? Stop associating them with the affair and realize they did get me through something worse than I knew. #3. Get more exercise! Think I'll get to work on that one right now!

[ October 18, 2001: Message edited by: alottolearn ]

Don't be so hard on yourself. I just thought you could use the party.

Thanks, Kent. Wonder if I'll ever figure out how to lighten up!

Here's an update: Yesterday am even though I did cry, I did a pretty good job of whole heartedly saying to my H, "I don't want you to see me as competeing with your work for your attention, give your work all the attention you want--I'm not the oposition". No way Jos� am I interested in a power struggle with my H. So, last night he came home about midnight (2a has been more of the norm lately) and said that much to his amazement he had finished one of his two grants for this stage. He had an important meeting this am so I called at noon to see how it went. He handled the situation so well (this is one thing that lets me know he really has made important changes in his life--he is standing up for himself at work like never before--not only that but he's doing so with SUCH grace and I am sooo proud of him: this is the guy I'm totally in love with). Any way at the end of the conversation I said "OK, well I'll see you tomorrow morning" (he had said he would need to work each night this week and there is that other grant) but he said no he had finished what he needed to finish and would be home for dinner....maybe I took some step in the right direction. However, I know that, for my own sanity if nothing else, I need to realize that my stand of refusing to be an opposing force to his work has to be something permanent. I don't compete, I just try to be the best self I know how to be, whether he takes me or leaves me I'm going to be the same!

[ October 18, 2001: Message edited by: alottolearn ]

You will get better at maintaining what you already know. If we can just get past these little glitches. I know, it's a pipe dream.

I have a whole page of quotes from this thread. So many helpful things, and articulations of how I feel. Like this:

I still sometimes feel very split in who I am...the strong independent one who has the world by the horns...and the other one who still bears the wounds inflicted by the betrayal.

And this:

I can also say I don't give W ready access to the me inside. I also have found she does not want ready access, just limited access.

Now Kent, I know this will probably sound kinda heavy but... Lots of folks think that affairs come along when the relationship is too fused, too intense, instead of it being the product of distance. (What me? Too intense???) I think that was true for us. Part of it was that I was used to having lots of very close friendships and my H wasn’t. He was used to working his butt off and not taking time for relationships. We have a wonderful arrangement for complementing each other OR completely burning each other out.

Here is what has helped me:

I have learned that the hurt one is the part of me that is completely alone with my own conscience, the HP, whatever you want to call it. The only real comfort I can find is inside me. (This way of looking at things gives my H the "space" he needs and gives me the realization that I am responsible for my own happiness.) It doesn’t help to try to get my H to comfort me. At the level I feel hurt, he can’t do it--nobody can. My H can only handle extremely limited access to me. I have now come to believe that’s just how humans are, and I do better to remember that and act accordingly.

Long ago I had a dear friend who was in an emotional state that I just couldn't handle. I distanced her during that period because it was simple more than I could handle. My H tells me that when he sees my hurt it is more than he can handle because he knows that he was the cause of that pain--I can sympathize, had I been a contributor to my friends pain it would have been unbearable to me. The good news is that my friend is still one of my best friends (since I was 4 years old!).

In this way the big lesson out of all this has been realizing that all I really have is me and that HP. And every moment I’m living in that awareness the wounded part is connected to the strong part. It still hurts but I don't try to put the hurt back on my H, like I read on the Forgiveness site (and have seen to be true) passing hurt back and forth just intensifies it. I let it stop with me.

At least I know the goal. Hopefully those moments of awareness will be closer together and longer: I'll live what I know!

[ October 22, 2001: Message edited by: alottolearn ]

Dinner with my coworker and his wife went very well. Definitely one of those experiences where I can say, yes things are getting better. I should hasten to add that I've also learned to expect times when it appears that my H is going out of his way to be hurtful. I do tell him about those experiences but am learning how to 1. not let it throw me and to 2. express myself in increasingly constructive ways.

So we had a very nice time. My H was helpful in getting ready. At one point I asked for help and he couldn't have been nicer about pitching in. For the first time in our married life things were so ready that I got to visit with the company almost as much as he did. This is a very appreciated improvement.

This was one of those moments that you write on the calendar in red and remember on a not so good day. Lots to be very thankful for.

ALTL

This is a very good thread. A lot of insight into what goes in. I like the Dance we all are doing. I am still struggling with the possibility that in the end he still may walk away.

***
I suppose when you do something that changes the dance, then you are in the lead. If you are changing things for the better then you're DBing. Even a spouse whose running away is still dancing.
***

I really like the above. It is good that even though we are the ones left behind (in a way) sometimes we can still LEAD THE DANCE.
As long as the WS is open to the dance the chances are there.

You both are very good at this.

ALTL,

I just wanted to re-say what you said so very well:

"I have learned that the hurt one is the part of me that is completely alone with my own conscience, the HP, whatever you want to call it. The only real comfort I can find is inside me. (This way of looking at things gives my H the "space" he needs and gives me the realization that I am responsible for my own happiness.) It doesn’t help to try to get my H to comfort me. At the level I feel hurt, he can’t do it--nobody can. My H can only handle extremely limited access to me. I have now come to believe that’s just how humans are, and I do better to remember that and act accordingly."

"Yeah Baby!!!" (to quote that international man of mystery-was on tv this past weekend....)

This may sound kind of nuts, but I have stopped asking H to comfort me-which he would-but I stopped outright asking because I could tell it was hurting him.

I think I am finally realizing that you can only "punish" someone for so long before you really just lose interest. The ultimate detachment I suppose-coupled with forgiveness. It's like something I have always known but had not been able to truly live.

This is not to say that I don't have 'bad thoughts' anymore...matter of fact, I know that while the A was on-going, he was with her this past week-he gave me some bogus story about having to go to Germany (from Mid-east where he was) for something, and...get this-this is great....he could not figure out the phone system and that's why he didn't call me for the whole time he was there! Isn't that RICH!!! Here's a man, in his 40's, trained, educated and at the TOP of his career field (he cannot get promoted again-there is no higher rank) and he could NOT FIGURE OUT THE PHONE SYSTEM??? Ohhhhhhhhhhhh puhleeeeeese. (isn't that funny?? In a sick-twisted sort of way....or perhaps it's just pathetic....)

When I have thoughts like this, and I still do pretty (ok, very) often, I do not share them...AND most importantly, they do not rule me. I am more or less objective about them. They still hurt-but not to the point of tears or even ruining my mood. I think it's slipped into the category of regret or remorse-type of sadness. They are just sort of random thoughts I have...hard to explain-but I bet you know what I mean.

Anyway-I am starting to ramble...just wanted to let you know that "I know what 'cha mean".

Wow, really great stuff here you guys…

I think it is only through feeling the kinds of pain we have all felt here that we can learn to be as compassionate towards our partners as to not “inflict” our pain, or make their guilt heavier to carry (which surely does not help us rebuild, does it?). I see awareness in my H of what I have gone through, and he apologizes, but we do not talk much about it. I can almost see that by the time he gets to the place where he can really face it, I may be past a lot of it. Or at least at such a stage of healing that I can be detached from the events so they don’t interfere with rebuilding. (If we get there.)

Like you said ALTL, the bad thoughts still happen. Just yesterday, when I visited H at our house. H’s parents (who do not know he wants to reconcile again) have been helping him with repairs around the house to prepare to sell it, which has been infuriating me for many reasons. They had gone into my room (where my stuff is a state of half packed/half unpacked) and they re-packed and moved stuff around. I felt violated all over again because now H has been all through my personal things, and it feels like they have too. I no longer even want my stuff because of that. Anyway. He knew I was troubled, and was about to sink into a big heavy guilt mood, and I just asked if when they are done the repair, HE would put my stuff back in the room (in a way I can get at it) and not touch or let anyone but me touch it again. I made it very clear this is not negotiable, and I told him this was a way he could specifically help me heal this part of the mess. He seemed to feel better that I gave him a small thing to do to help.

Getting a solution thiinking cap on... I may make myself a list of all the things that really hurt and infuriated me this past year - and then come up with ways I can specifically "exorcise" them out of my system - some I may be ready for now, some I can repeat over again when I need to, and some I may not be ready for yet- but can work towards. And then IF H wants to, maybe I'll know better the ways he could be part of it (or not).

Hope you don't mind my tangents...

LeeP

Dear jtolic,
I really think our spouses can't not dance. They just dance far away and some pretty wild steps sometimes. By dancing our own dance with all the integrity we can muster we regain ourselves and sometimes our spouses. A crisis like big marital trouble is something that can get you to do things you never thought you could because it is so powerful. It is a rare opportunity to look yourself in the eye in a mighty bright light and to get yourself to match up to who you want to be. Now, I agree there's got to be a better way...

but we might as well use what we got

Dear Me2,

I can see your secret: humor! Good for you! Awsome detachment skills too! I'm confused about your situation and (sorry) don't have time to read up on you like I will later, is the A ongoing? If so what is being said about it between you, if anything?

Dear LeeP,

I loved your "tangent". I'm curious about your idea of detaching from events. Could you say more?

[ October 29, 2001: Message edited by: alottolearn ]

Hi ALTL-

Been away for a few days, just read your Q and thought I'd elucidate me sit...

A is over. It was over before I actually knew the WHOLE truth. I suspected, and found OW's yahoo ID screen name in his instant messenger account-I was snooping and hacked into his account-he lied and said he was just talking to her over IM and email (no sex-stuff) and that he'd met her in a chat room. All BS. He met her a month or so after he deployed-at a week-long course they both attended-slept together after getting drunk one night(or so he says) and then continued the A for about 3 months...long distance-she in Germany he in Mid-East. He would come stateside to visit us in conjunction with another course or meeting...and see her either enroute here or back there. Nice huh....what a guy.

I had suspicions of OW from as early as Sep-it started with her end of Aug. After I found her screen name in is yahoo IM account in Jan-I put my foot down and said NO MORE CONTACT with her. He stopped but I never did believe him about it only being 'talking on the computer'.

He re-deployed home in July...we were "ok" but I was still struggling with the lies and kept snooping and doing all the wrong things to try and 'catch' him. It screwed with my head so much that I even went into therapy to deal with it...but I stopped just before he re-deployed.

The snooping got less and less as I was starting to trust him again, but for some reason I went into one of his email accounts on Nov 7 2000, I had not opened either of the 2 accounts I took control of in at least 30 days....and there was an email from a woman wanting to know how mad he was at her for not having replied to any of her emails-

I was BESIDE myself...called him at work and confronted him-asked who she was (by name-before this I only had her IM screen name and he would NOT tell me who she was or where she lived). He knew his shit was weak. I screamed and yelled and hung up on him...told him he'd better get his ass home if he knew what was good for him-and oh by the way-that I was sending her a reply and would CC him at his work email address.

So I did. I replied to her (from his account) and told her who I was and while I didn't know how mad he was at her I could tell her with a great degree of certainty how mad I was at him. Within 30 minutes she answered me. I was surprised. She apologized and said that she had no idea he was married-he had lied to her-and had she known she never would have gotten involved with him...she also confirmed that they'd had no contact since late Jan.

We (I) talked/yelled/screamed for a few hours that day, we were supposed to be at work-but I left just after I got her email to go home and pack my things to leave his sorry ass, and he got there a little while after me (he commutes over an hour each way). I yelled some more and screamed some more...was too mad to cry but called him every name in the book-even slapped his face and shoved him. Threatened to leave him. He begged me to stay. Said he was sorry he lied about everything but he was afraid I’d leave him. He asked me to go to therapy with him to work it out. He basically let me rant and rave...knowing dam well I wasn’t gonna leave. He seemed rather complacent about the whole thing-very even tempered-you might even say stoic.

It’s so frustrating. Here we are a year after I find out the WHOLE truth...we did the therapy thing for about 6 months. It seems he has no explanation for why he did what he did-no real REASON-he says it wasn’t me-it was him. He agreed, as did I, on what things we needed to work on to foster our communication methods with each other, what the different tools were, what we SHOULD do and say-but he will not put them into practice. He is essentially the same. Silent-moody-sullen when we disagree-will not resolve ANYTHING just pretends everything is rosey and wonderful. He has this uncanny way of making me feel really stupid too-my perception of how he feels about me from what he says and how he often treats me. He wants OR to be great-wonderful-no problems....but is not willing to face any issues I have...and I seem to be the only one who ever does have an issue and I am the only one who gets distressed.

I don’t know, I’ve been in a funk lately-past 4-5 days...I feels like I had no say in the decision or no say in where we went/what happened to OR-it was almost like he KNEW I wouldn’t leave him, even tho he says he was sure I’d leave and that’s why he lied. I think he lied to avoid having to deal with my shit. He seems to have all but forgotten about what he did. This is not to say I want him to constantly brood over it, but at least help get the resolution I need to work past it. Yes we are "rebuilding" but it DID happen and I still hurt. It’s like he “has” me and I’m not going anywhere and he knows this. Y'know for some strange reason I am still afraid he’ll leave me...Now does that make sense???? It sure as hell doesn’t to me. I also feel that if I were to go to him and say ‘get out’ or ‘I’m leaving’ he’d just say ‘ok’. I tell ya, some days the only two reasons I’m here at all are 5 and 6 years old (and look like him!)...

Now regarding our(my) latest issue-like I said I’ve been down-in-the-dumps the past few days, and here he comes after basically ignoring me for 2 days acting all like-‘oh nothing’s wrong’ and ‘we’re best buddies again’, and that same morning he won't talk to me-left the house in the morning in a huff without even saying a word...it’s so hard to keep up PMA when I just don’t feel like it anymore. If he doesn’t want to deal with me, fine, maybe I should leave. I am NOT a Stepford Wife, but sometimes I sure feel like it.

I have changed myself so much over the past year that I am finding that now doing 180’s from the first 180’s I did bring me right back to 360...or where I was last year, back to the same old thing that didn’t work and are what led to his A...

I’m tired. And this is very long...

WEW!

I hope you feel better. I sure do.

Your not alone Me2. I still don't know what all really happened. The difference is I really don't need to anymore.

So why are you down? Really? Is it that he is not working on the R?

Some tell me that all the stuff my W is getting involved with is an exit strategy. My response is "I don't think so, but if it is, I'm OK with that". It's funny how different people see things completely different. When you really think about it, I think these feelings and strange comments comme from fear. Let go of fear and accept what life throws at you. If things are not heading in the right direction, initiate a change.

Fourty feet is pretty big for a sail boat with only a one man crew. On one of those beautiful days when your running downwind with the chute up, I'm amazed that I could change the course of that boat by changing my position in the cockpit. Not a big change in course, but it does not need to be to take you to a different location in the long haul.

[ November 02, 2001: Message edited by: KentS ]

Hi Kent-

You're always there! Thanks

I like the sailboat analogy-I get it...it's also like when you're walking an azimuth with a compass (land nav)...even if you vary by half of a degree, 1000 to 2000 meters down the way you'll be WAY off from where you should be....

So why am I so down? I am down because, well, a bunch of reasons I suppose-everything I act 'as if' about and NOT let get to me....sometimes they do. If I had to choose 1 thing...it'd be the fact that he acts like NOTHING bothers him and he's got this riteous indignation about him sometimes...makes me want to slap him. He never approaches a problem we have-he just ignores me for a period of time, then out of the blue acts like NOTHING happened and we're buddies again.

A good friend of mine, pretty much the ONLY one who knows about his A besides H, me and our C, told me she thinks he might be cheating again.....I almost lost it. (ALMOST) cuz I really don't thing he is....

Gotta run-day care late fees are killer-I'll be around this weekend....

I don't talk to my friends about my R anymore. When they ask, I act "as if".

Go with your gut.

BTW, I'm still "just living".

[ November 03, 2001: Message edited by: KentS ]

Hey Me2,

Sorry to not get back to you for a while. Hope the funk has funkied on down the road for you. The honest truth for me is that after 2 1/2 years I am amazed at how badly I can hurt at times. I don't mean that to sound discouraging but for me, it just goes with the territory. Now here is the encouraging part: what I do with those feelings makes a huge difference. I have been thinking a lot about the idea that when pain is passed back and forth it intensifies. This weekend I have (despite some serious doubts that I was doing the right thing) steadfastly refused to let my H see any of those painful feelings. The results have been impressive. Its as though deep down somewhere he knows that he’s getting a break and he is so grateful. Either that or he really likes what I did with my hair… He has been so affectionate, physically and especially verbally, that it is making me feel lots better. It is working much better than the OR talks that I think we should be having because we are rebuilding. Yesterday we did errands together and had such a great time just being together.

I am certain that I will never understand why he did what he did and I imagine certain aspects will probably always hurt like day one from time to time. For me it is like a death of a close loved one—we all have or will experience that—everyone does. I will always miss what I had, but life goes on and it is up to me and only me to make it as worthwhile as I can figure out. This weekend I managed grace and generosity, it felt very good to both of us. Hopefully I can remember how to do this more often.

I think we've found before that our H's are somewhat similar. My H does the "very calm" thing too. He talks like a robot...like Hal of 2001 fame in fact...boy does that get me! Thankfully he hasn't done it much lately!

This is a great thread..

Me2 – Sorry you’re in a funk. It just sucks. One of the counselors I saw taught me a good trick. She said when I feel resentful, and get stuck in the negative feelings, to “frame it”, meaning decide on a period of time I will give myself permission to really let myself feel the negative stuff, and then when the time is up, get out of it. This is easier said than done, I know. Can I ask you a question? While I was reading your post, I wondered… how would you feel different if you left?How would you resolve your hurt either way? I ask myself these often. I remind myself that it probably won’t be all rosy if H ever asks me to move back in… with the immediate crisis out of the way, the issues that got us here might resurface sometimes. I’m sure I wasn’t so happy all the time before either. It is changing how we look at it that will change the outcome, and that HAS to happen whether we get back together or not. Make any sense?

I have some killer bad feelings, still, too and I want to resolve them (with or without H’s help) ‘cause I don’t want to carry it around with me. I’d like to think “Lightness of being” is well worth the work. If I can get there first, H can choose to jump aboard or not. Why wouldn’t he? Why do any of us hang on to our negative feelings? Maybe because it feels safe? Justified? Who knows. We all do it. It’s in living there less and less that we make progress, I think.

ALTL- “… Its as though deep down somewhere he knows that he’s getting a break and he is so grateful”. "This weekend I managed grace and generosity, it felt very good to both of us. Hopefully I can remember how to do this more often.”

I think you already know the answer to whether or not you did the right thing. It’s in how you feel about it. Good, I hope

LeeP

~~~~***

Hi guys,

Thanks for the happy thoughts....I am moving through and out of the fog.

I do admit some residual guilt tho-for feeling so crapy even tho I know I have it better than most posters here do. For that I am grateful, and to answer your question Lee, I really don't know IF or how I'd be better had I left him. I know I'd probably be a hell of a lot worse. What I think I'm after is feeling like I had a tiny bit of control throughout the whole uncontrollable thing. I am not really a serious control freak-but am very analytical and methodical in my day to day (prob stems from career) and I do not like the fact that it happened, (virtually under my dam nose) it ended and we moved on and I didn't get to have a say in any of it.

I suppose I did-but he had moved back home after the deployment and had been home 6 months before the bomb (2 days and not counting....to the 1 year mark)...we were living our lives as if nothing had happened. It was only my un-trusting snooping that got him caught-he would never have told me.

I am still resenting lots...H and I did have a quick talk last night-first OR type talk in at least 3 months, as usual, I pretty much told him how I feel-and as usual he did not have much to say. Am still mulling this one over-we never got a chance to finish-oldest son interrupted.

I have more to say (also as usual) but am once again pressed for time (class tonight-am in danger of doing below min req...)

L
p.s. no time for spell check-pls forgive any mis-spellings! (am a terrible speller)

We're 2 1/2 years into creating a marriage we can live with on the bad days and be happy in on the good days and after all this time I think I'm finally getting my ship turned around. In other words there is finally a sense of heading in the right direction and more confidence than I've felt in a long while. Today, (better knock on some wood) I felt like my old happy self for the first time since the bomb. I expect this won't last (though I sure will take it if it does!) but it was like getting to be with my best buddy that I hadn't seen for eons. I think it was the way I acted over the weekend. It has also helped that my H responded so well. Got to remember this dance!

Just when you think you've gotten the hang of it...My H broke my heart again by showing in a letter to his flirtatious friend that he is utterly uninterested in my life (it's too long to write)then the next day he fawned all over his other flirtatious friend and guess what? We are going out of town tomorrow and they are both going to be there! I made the mistake of not expecting this and got upset. On the other hand, I really don't want to live the rest of my life in this humiliation. So.................What's the solution?????

OK. First, somehow I have GOT to stop buying into this dance, so I don't get upset and can think rationally and clearly about what to do. Second, I need to find a way to calmly and firmly set some limits so I am not treated poorly and can hold myself in esteem even if my spouse doesn't. Thirdly, if there is some way to nonreactively convey the harm that is done when one's spouse is emotionally absent at important moments and gives their attention to another, I wish I could learn it. To have that message get through seems to me an important part of reconciliation that has to happen if one can ever feel comfortable after an affair. Somebody please tell me how to do this. Seems to me like if you are putting your marriage back together then emotional needs, communication, developing palpable mutual respect, all need to be tended to. Isn't that right?

I'm still hurting from that affair because the emotional dynamics of it are continuing with other women to this day!!! My H will not admit to a smidgen of this. There was a time when I'd have believed that he really had no awareness but now I think deep down he does.

Oops, back to solutions...Here is a very lofty goal: I'd like us each to realize that it is important to our individual happiness to make the other one comfortable. Again shouldn't this be part of "Piecing"? In the meantime I'm pretty darn uncomfortable so the only solution is to unhook, detach, step offada roller coaster. Also I guess the "real love" that Michele talks about comes into play. I've still got to think about his comfort and happiness and treat him well even if he's hurting me. One doesn't get to experience acting gracefully without adversity. I still have a little trouble in myself figuring out how to be sure to not drop to door mat.

One thing that perhaps I did wrong was that I told my H how much I enjoyed our previous weekend and I think it was too much for him. It is so hard because he vows and declares his love but his actions don't follow suit. This includes being extremely inconsistent about frequency of love making--right now he's back to zippo--just like during the affair. This is confusing and crazymaking. What is the solution? How do you deal with someone whose actions and words don't match? How can trust possibly be rebuilt in this situation?

Maybe you just try and find peace inside yourself and then do whatever you can to pass it on into the relationship and trust develops as a by product?

[ November 13, 2001: Message edited by: alottolearn ]

ALTL,
*****************************************
My H broke my heart again by showing in a letter to his flirtatious friend that he is utterly uninterested in my life
******************************************
How did you learn of this?

I hate to say it, but if it is true, I would confront him on it and let him know how it hurt and if it is true, he needs to leave and find what he is searching for. The sooner the better.

Your to far into this process to tolerate this kinda crap.

Sorry ALTL! I really beleive your H needs to grow up some.

After 7+ years, I am totally interested in my W's life. I'm not in all of it and I'm OK with that. But I am interested.

Kent

In reading this, I realize it sounds worse than it was. I have plans for our trip and my H was telling this to our friend. He was using the e-mail that we both use at home. We will be seeing this woman and her husband on this trip. She has been flirtatous with him, once very suggestively in an e-mail (he shared that one with me and wrote a wonderful limit setting letter back to her, my suggestion and his very lovely words). That happened about a year and a half ago.

He didn't say he is uninterested in my life. He told her that he didn't know what my meeting with a special person was about. If it were me and especially if I were him I'd ask about something so obviously important to my spouse.

Guess that sometimes when I try to leave out detail to get a picture across quickly some of those details make a big difference!

ALTL,
****************************************
He didn't say he is uninterested in my life. He told her that he didn't know what my meeting with a special person was about.
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This totally contradicts what you previously said. Was the previous post a perception of yours? If it was, you have some soul searching to do as I don't see much relationship between the contradictions. Unless, your resentment bank is filling up.

And yet Again,

I must concur with Kent:

"I hate to say it, but if it is true, I would confront him on it and let him know how it hurt and if it is true, he needs to leave and find what he is searching for. The sooner the better."

He is right-you are WAY too far into this to be putting up with this disrespectful CRAPOLA.

Stop being so nice to him when he hurts you-let him know how it makes you feel. Tell him he talks the talk but cannot walk the walk.

Actions speak volumes louder than words.

Unfortunately-it really IS all about perception, isn't it. I hate that. There are many things I perceive from my H about how he feels, what he wants, how he views me...and because he is so dam silent all the time, how am I to know otherwise? I only perceive through the his tone of voice when he talks (about non-OR stuff), his attitude and body language. Otherwise I play the guessing game.

Being as non-confrontational as you can, IMHO, you should talk to him about how he makes you feel, that you feel he is not interested in you-no because of what he says...but because of how he acts and how he treats you. And I must apologize, I am still confused about your clarification here

"He told her that he didn't know what my meeting with a special person was about. If it were me and especially if I were him I'd ask about something so obviously important to my spouse." - do you mean that when you said you were meeting with a "special person" meaning her/them, and he didn't understand why, first of all it was so important to you and second why you were concerned/nervous?...and THEN he TOLD her this???-I can see where you'd be pissed...am I tracking?

Listen you, you are interesting...you are worth loving...and also, again, like Kent said...he really needs to grow up. (but I realize that you know this)

p.s. want me to tell him? hehe
p.p.s. isn't is SO much easier when you're on the other side? (meaning how 'easy' I seem to be able to give the very same advice I should be taking.....hey, didn't I just say something about walking the walk vs. talking the talk??!!...hm)

Hey, thought I'd throw in 2 cents here too. Hope it doesn't just confuse things

I got from this a slightly different picture- if H has set boundaries with his friend, did he break it by mentioning your name, or was he bringing you up for a purpose (to signal that boundary?)

Have you thought about what your definition of his "showing interest" in you would be? Have you communicated to him (tricky, I know)? The fact that he even mentioned it could be interest.

It's funny, the many ways this could all be taken is a good example of how perception is such a dangerous thing. I know the more resentful I become, the easier it is for me to take everything H does in a bad light. How much is our responsibility to fix and how much should they help us with?? It's frustrating isn't it?

And I think about this a lot: the duality of our S's when communicating with us and with the OP. What part of them is real and what do they really feel? It's so hard to tell.

LeeP