Here's the summary with typos fixed (skip this if you've been following my situation):
Pulling it all together?
*
Gordie and W were married for twenty years and had five children, elementary to high school age. They were college sweethearts, committed Christians, and our first loves. Gordie had very fond memories of their early years of marriage but admitted that he and W had grown apart for quite some time. Nevertheless, he didn’t see their distance as a crisis. He was a hard worker and provided well for his family. He didn’t drink or stay out late with the guys and he was faithful. In other words, he thought he was a pretty good husband and father.
*
For the first fifteen years, W was a SAHM who, to him, seemed content with her involvement with the children and their daily lives. After baby #5, W started to make some changes. She lost weight and got in shape; she started exploring other religious beliefs; she made new friends (mostly single and divorced women); and she decided she wanted to work outside the home and start her own business. All of these changes made Gordie anxious, but he supported her, but not as much as he could have: he took a lot more responsibility for childcare on the weekends so that W could explore her new interests; he paid for her to take classes and travel; and he funded her new business.
*
That’s why Gordie was shocked when W announced that she no longer wanted to be married. W initially told Gordie that he had been a great husband and father and that he didn’t do anything wrong, but that they had just drifted apart. Later, in an angry outburst, W told Gordie that he didn’t listen to her, understand her and support her. Why did he get to have a rich, rewarding career while she was at home raising the children and being a homemaker? And when Gordie asked her why if she had been so unhappy she hadn’t told him, she grew furious, stating that she had tried for many years to get through to him but apparently he hadn’t been listening. Later still, W said that she was in love with two men at the same time--Gordie and a 22 year old employee--though she stated that there had been no physical relationship so far. Gordie was devastated.
*
He fantasized about running away or killing himself, just to end the pain of dealing with this nightmare, but he knew that both options would be cowardly and only make things worse. Although still devastated, Gordie decided to try to sort through his feelings and start the seven-step program to save his marriage.
*
Step Number 1 –Start with a beginner’s mind
*
Gordie had some unlearning to do. When W told him of her discontent, he vacillated between intense anger and desperation. His anger stemmed from the fact that he believed that he had been a near-perfect husband and that W had temporarily lost her mind. He felt like a victim and he was furious.
*
Gordie had to learn that regardless of what he thought about their marriage, W had a different perspective and he had to do some soul searching to try to understand why W has been so unhappy. As long as Gordie continued to play the blame game, he risked W walking out the door. Even if he found her perspective hard to follow, he needed to make every effort to be more empathetic—quickly. He also needed to accept that, whether he liked it or not, he was going to have to take responsibility for turning things around in their marriage. He had to internalize the notion that one person can change a marriage singlehandedly and that one person had to be him.
*
Step Number 2—Know what you want
*
Original Goals
Goal 1—I want my W to stay married to me
*She will stop bringing up D in conversation
*When she talks about the future, I want to be included
*She will give me words of affirmation
Goal 2—W has to get the POM out of her life
*W will acknowledge that his presence is not good for our M
*W will say that she will stop going out to lunch with him and buying him presents
*W will say talk about them not working together
Goal 3—I want us to be happy together
*We will go on weekly dates together
*We will go on vacation together, just the two of us
*W will initiate sex with me
*
Step Number 3—Ask for what you want
*
Gordie didn’t want to pursue or initiate a R discussion, so he planned out what he wanted to say and waited until W initiated a R discussion. Despite his best efforts, things did not go well. W told Gordie that she had been unhappy for a very long time and that W refused to spend what remained of W’s life in a miserable situation. W told Gordie that because W didn’t feel close, that W felt used when they had sex. W couldn’t fathom how insensitive Gordie had been to W’s feelings. W also informed Gordie that W had no intention of ending the relationship with POM, instead W wanted to foster and consummate it, that W could see herself marring him and having babies with him and having the relationship that W always wanted.
*
In the days that followed, Gordie reconsidered his commitment to their marriage. He was so surprised at W’s reactions and the vehemence with which W stated them that he began to wonder whether W was still the same women he married years ago. He questioned why he would even want to stay in a marriage with a W who wasn’t ready to drop the POM immediately. He felt he was losing touch with reality and felt desperate. He felt so much shame about his situation that he felt there was no one to whom he could turn. He was at a loss.
*
He thought more about his marriage, reflected on their shared history, the happy times, their children, and a sadness overwhelmed him. He also thought about the commitment they had made to each other and to God on the day of their wedding—until death do us part. So, for better or for worse, Gordie decided that he was going to stop fighting with W and start fighting for their marriage. Realizing that Step 3 didn’t bring about positive results, he had to proceed with Step Number 4—Going down cheeseless tunnels.
*
Step Number 4—Going down cheeseless tunnels
*
Gordie realized that his marriage was truly on shaky ground. If he pushed W too much, he recognized that W would be right out the door. In fact, he believed that W would probably seek solace with the POM. This was the last thing he wanted. It was enormously difficult for him to restrain himself from really letting her have it about W’s immoral and irresponsible behavior, but he knew that if he were to hound W about the POM or anything else, their marriage probably wouldn’t survive. He made a choice to become solution-oriented rather than to allow his emotions to be his guide. Gordie recognized that if his marriage had a chance of surviving, he would have to look inward and change himself first. This was a truly humbling experience for him, especially because he felt so raw.
*
He also recognized that, as unfair and unreasonable as it might be, it was Gordie who had to woo his W back. Because W had allowed W’s negative feelings about their marriage to fester too long, W was less motivated to work on their marriage than he was. Gordie decided to be realistic about his predicament. Gordie was going to have to take the lead.
*
Gordie realized that there was more merit in what W had been saying to him. In the early years of their marriage, they spent all of their free time together and talked endlessly. As time passed and their lives diverged, days, weeks, months could pass without meaningful conversation or alone time or date nights. When W started to make changes in her life, Gordie was emotionally anxious and either ignored what was happening or was critical instead of listening, understanding and being supportive. Sometimes, he found it difficult to be in W’s presence or to even talk to her. He vowed to stop criticizing and finding reasons to listen and compliment W whenever possible.
*
Gordie figured out that pressuring W to cut off all contact with POM was premature. From what W said, it was clear W wasn’t ready to commit to their marriage. Gordie knew that if W cornered, W would probably opt to pursue POM even if, in the long run, it wasn’t in W’s best interests. He knew that insisting upon an ultimatum was not going to work in his favor. So, as impossible as it seemed to him at the time, he promised himself that he would put the POM issue on the back burner for the time being.
*
At the same time, Gordie had taken to heart what W had been saying about their marital intimacy. He wasn’t quite sure what to do but he knew that something needed to change. He didn’t want W to feel used, yet he knew that sometimes they still had very passionate lovemaking, so all was not lost. He decided he would stop initiating and let W come to him.
*
In summary, Gordie determined that these were the more of the same behaviors that he needed to stop immediately:
*Being critical and negative
*Pressuring W to end her relationship with POM
*Initiating sex
Then Gordie asked himself, what should I do instead? He was ready for Step Number 5.
*
Step Number 5—Experiment and monitor results
*
Weeks one and two
*
Gordie decided to follow the advice outlined in a Do a 180. For Gordie, Doing a 180 meant that, even in his state of confusion, anger, and resentment, he try to spend quality time with W every day, attentively listening to her; and to be more loving, understanding, affectionate and appreciate of W.
*
He wrote down what he wanted to tell W, explaining that he finally understood why W was feeling so distant from him. He assumed responsibility for behaviors that increased the distance between them, like not spending enough time together, fearing and being critical of change, and emotionally disconnected sexual relations that left her feeling used. He asked for W’s forgiveness. He also complimented W on the positive changes W had made in her life to be healthy, to look great, to start her own business.
*
He waited to share these things the next time W initiated a R discussion. It was his hope that these words would demonstrate that he was really listening to W and taking W’s words to heart and taking responsibility for his failures in their marriage.
*
Gordie had his hopes up that this conversation would be a turning point, but unfortunately, it didn’t turn out that way. W listened carefully to what Gordie had to say, expressed appreciation for the fact that he said it, but felt like all of these changes and discussions were too little, too late. W said that she still loves Gordie, that they are soul mates, that they will always be connected, but that we have to get divorced for our relationship to grow. Further, W is willing to risk everything in order to pursue a relationship with POM even if it doesn’t work out or else W will live the rest of her life with regret and what ifs; no one, particularly Gordie, is going to stop her from pursuing her dreams!
*
W’s response upset Gordie tremendously. He had been feeling fairly certain that W would be responsive, but he was wrong. He started to imagine what his life would be like without W and the thought terrified him. Despite their problems, in his heart, Gordie always knew that they would be together forever. W was pulling the rug out from beneath his feet.
*
Weeks three and four
*
Gordie realized he had to get a grip on himself and stop pursuing W in any way. He had to devise a plan to deal with his feelings of insecurity. He decided to confide in a couple of friends about what was happening in his marriage. They were extremely supportive and this comforted him tremendously.
*
Rather than work on their marital problems, W kept her distance. They weren’t fighting, but they weren’t talking about their R either. Gordie realized that if their marriage was going to get back on track, it was not going to be a speedy process. He tried to prepare for the long journey back to feeling close again. He decided that he would have to be more patient, more patient that he had ever been before, and that he would have to let W know that she was going to be his friend while he went on his own journey.
*
He knew that, no matter how hard it was for him to do, he needed to give W space to sort things out W’s way. Gordie needed to get back on track and stick to his plan of backing off.
*
Weeks five to eight
*
During the next three weeks, Gordie and W had several ups and downs. When he gave her space and avoided R discussions, things were calm. When he voiced any discontent or questioned her at all about her actions or intentions, things deteriorated. On one hand, the calm felt better than the storm, but he also felt that he was sweeping things under the carpet. W started initiating more R discussions and opening up more about her anger, her fears, her desires, her frustrations, and her resentments. Gordie listened and validated. At the end of the eight weeks, W initiated sex for the first time since BD and it was glorious.
*
Months three and four
*
Over the next two months, Gordie saw continued signs of improvement. Gordie and W were spending more time together. W started texting and calling him. W started flirting and W was sometimes inviting physical contact—including sex. W expressed feeling closer, but that W hasn’t changed her mind about wanting to S or D. Lawyers have been called and they are actively working on a separation agreement.
I find recently that I've been reading more of the old/new threads in the MLC forum that I'd try moving my thread from newcomers over here. I feel like I've already learned so much from all of you here in MLC that applies to my situation.
Welcome to the MLC Forum. I'm sorry you are here, but you'll discover a lot of wonderful people post all over the Forum, including this one. Read as much a you can, take away what you can use and leave the rest behind.
I'm pasting in Cadet's Welcome Thread info. Please read the threads because you will discover a wealth of info.
Welcome to this board.
The first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy book by MWD,
Divorce Busting is also an excellent book.
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htmMichele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htmKeep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.
It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts (for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support)
I have read a good deal of books on the subject and can give you some suggestions when you are ready.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
I will give you a bunch of homework assignments to read.
This POST is under reconstruction and we will be working on this as time goes by, this is the most current version.
I would start with the going dark link.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post50956Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2537289#Post2537289Resources thread(last post only)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2592296#Post2592296Things you should know as the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2701017#Post2701017Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Doormat Tactics
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1942444#Post1942444Standing vs leaving
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1966340&page=1Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574Musings from AmyC
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2253741#Post2253741MLC Signs
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2177869#Post2177869The Final Stages Withdrawal to Acceptance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2074403&page=1Now you have all the tools to read. Let us know how your doing and if you have any questions.
I suggest that you read the entire thread in the resources.
You can also pick out some people and read their whole story.
Depression is the key to the whole thing and it is always present!
Believe none of what he/she says and 50% of what he/she does.
I would not ask him/her anything unless you can have no expectations.
Sometimes asking them questions will be thought of as pressure.
You do not want to do anything that can be thought of by your H/W as controlling or pressure.
Lets not worry about him/her. Lets work on you!
Start your homework assignments.
Something to DO while you are on moderation.
GAL.
Eat, sleep, exercise and take a deep breath.
In general take care of your self first.
Detach the single most important thing to DO.
Your H/W has given you a gift
THE GIFT OF TIME
use it wisely
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
_________________________
Me-62, D30,S29
job,
Thanks. I've been lurking over in MLC for some time and have read and re-read most of those threads. I'll continue to re-read them, as each time I do, more sinks in. In terms of the going dark one to start, the problem in my marriage was being too distant from my W, so going dark would be more of the same, so haven't taken that approach. With my DB coach, I have been trying to create emotional connection. It's been working, but my W is still unwavering in her desire for D.
Gordie,
I think you are great. I follow along, and you really want to save your M and you are working hard at that But I want to point out one thing I keep reading in the introduction of the story. That can relate to your wife's complaints. it may seem small, but it is pretty impactful, and I can see it often, here, and in IRL.
"All of these changes made Gordie anxious, but he supported her, but not as much as he could have: he took a lot more responsibility for childcare on the weekends so that W could explore her new interests; HE paid for her to take classes and travel; and HE funded her new business"
You did not pay for her, and you did not fund her. You both paid and funded you both funded her. She may not have earned an income, but with 5 children, your career most likely wouldn't have been successful and that money would have not been coming in if SHE wasn't caring for 5 kids full-time. So that money that funded her is hers as well as yours.
The feeling of oppression that comes from being a SAHM is that they are made to feel like their husbands GIVE them money. They lose their feelings of independence because they are made to feel like they don't earn their own.
FTR, I was the bread-winner. We both took a career switch at the same time when we were engaged and the bread-winning flip-flopped. So I am not even a SAHM saying this. but I have very close friends who have gone through this and I have seen it on here.
for a 180, it might be a good idea not to ever mention that YOU funded her:)
***You did not pay for her, and you did not fund her. You both paid and funded you both funded her. She may not have earned an income, but with 5 children, your career most likely wouldn't have been successful and that money would have not been coming in if SHE wasn't caring for 5 kids full-time. So that money that funded her is hers as well as yours.***
Ginger, thank you for this truth dart. You are so right.
***The feeling of oppression that comes from being a SAHM is that they are made to feel like their husbands GIVE them money. They lose their feelings of independence because they are made to feel like they don't earn their own. FTR, I was the bread-winner. We both took a career switch at the same time when we were engaged and the bread-winning flip-flopped. So I am not even a SAHM saying this. but I have very close friends who have gone through this and I have seen it on here. for a 180, it might be a good idea not to ever mention that YOU funded her:)***
Thank you for your willingness to point that out. I wish I could talk to you IRL because I have so many questions for you and Rose, given how thoughtful your perspective has been in my situation and how you have helped me see my W's perspective.
I know, know, know that I have blind spots in my R with my W. The list of complaints that she has had about our R is long. At first, I was in complete denial, but as time passes and I have more time for reflection and the absorption of truth darts, I see more of the truth in her complaints and the idiocy of my denials.
So here's one I've been trying to see my W's perspective on but know I have a blind spot. A lot of W's (including mine) say their H's are condescending. When the W says that, what does that mean? I say it's a blind spot because I don't think I'm condescending, but if she's feeling it, then I must be doing something wrong.
Did the OM know of your W's delusion or was this news to him? How did he react to your discussion?
OM knew, he's the one that actually raised the issue (delusional infatuation) through someone we knew. Once the news got to me, I contacted the OM and he was supportive of letting my W know she was in a one way infatuation.
ForGump,
Wow, and then how did you tell your W and what did she say? Did she deny? have a breakdown?
Welcome to mlc threads.
I liked your pull it together thread in newcomers as you really tried to follow the book. Many here read the book and vaguely go on without really referring to it in practice.
That being said I would just point out that your situation is relatively young and maybe still too soon to achieve the result you are working towards. Be patient.
Best wishes
To clarify I meant your fight for M being relatively young especially compared to start of her mlc.
Yes, thanks. I know I'm early in this fight. I think that's why my DB coach asked me how patient I can be? It seems like my W may need to actually experience separation and divorce before ever reolconsidering. I'm amazed at all of the people here who have been fighting for years. It is inspiring.
Re condescension:
A few thoughts.
- Read and watch a few things on mansplaining. If you recognize yourself in that, change.
- When she is talking, do you ever correct small details that aren't important to the story? For example, if she says, "Remember that restaurant we ate at on the trip we took to Florida in 2003?" Do you say, "Actually it was 2004"?
- Do you override her decisions? I think you said this is not an issue, that you've divided up areas of ownership, but adding it to the list just in case.
- When you are talking, do you ever seem surprised if she asks for clarification or needs more background? Do your words or tone ever imply, "Really? You don't know that?"
- Do you call her pet names that can be taken sarcastically or that infantalize her? Is she "Princess" or "Baby" or "Doll"? This is one with discussing with her, because she might like that coming from you. But do ask if you use them.
- If she comes to you with something to discuss, do you jump in to solve the problem before she's finished telling you what the problem is? Listen and validate until she asks you a direct question.
Not sure if any of that helps, but these are some things I've seen and experienced that make me feel condescended to.
Gordie,
I want to put a disclaimer up about my advice. I know you appreciate it and I am happy you can see it as something that helps. It's a culmination of stuff I learned since my own bomb drop 9 years ago, being on these boards for so long, and having my situation open up my eyes to the marriages around me over the years. When I say something, or point something out, I want it to be known it's not that I feel like if the person every changed this one thing, their marriages wouldn[t be where they are now. It's just knowledge shared that I think could make your life and situation a little better. Knowledge is power and I wish I had so much more as a very young married woman.
That being said, rose gave you some good advice on being aware of being condescending.
I do think she may have found that if you pointed out that YOu funded her, as condescending.
One more example is, and heck, I've been guilty of this.
You tell someone you want them to do what makes them happy and you tell them you will be supportive. But then you give the cold shoulder, or are less than happy about it when they do those things you told them to do in the first place.
Wife: Honey, if you are stressed, I think you should take a night out with the guys"
Husband: Thanks, I think I will
Wife: (husband made plans with guys) I've been alone with the kids all day, you are going ot go out TONIGHT?
Bsically, our words should match our actions.
Rose--this was eye opening:
*Mansplaining? Innocent
*Correct details? Guilty
*Override decisions? Partly guilty. If she makes a decision, I follow it. If she makes a suggestion, I don't always follow it. If she wants to do something that I don't want to do, then she needs to ask/argue with me repeatedly for me to change my mind. This last thing bothers her the most. I say you get your way on all big things and she admits that she does but thinks it shouldn't take so much work.
*Clarification? Guilty
*Pet names? Innocent
*Fixing? Guilty
Ginger,
Thank you. I love your advice. All my close friends besides my W are guys so don't have a safe place to ask these Qs. Your example? Guilty, but actually think my W does this more than me, but I can only change my behavior. Again, thank you for opening my eyes on yet another area for improvement.
So my W was at work and I was with my kids and they wanted to stop in and see her. We did and she was there working with POM. POM and I are acquaintances and he is always friendly and chatty with me. For days after these interactions when she is in the presence of both of us my W gets really cold and angry towards me. Of course, I can't ask her about it. I guess I just give her space and process whatever feelings she is having within herself. Detach and let go. Breathe.
My DB coach has emphasized that I need to create emotional connection with my W. Her primary LL is quantity and quality time and I am giving her more of that than ever before when she is open to it. My challenge is that sometimes she doesn't want to be with me so I have been figuring out what to do during those time. First, I give her space away from me and do my thing with the kids or myself. Second, I do acts of service that can be done not in her presence. I find that she notices and even says thank you sometimes and it reduces the tension between us. Am I doing the right thing? Any other suggestions?
Gordie,
I think you are going about things in a very positive manner. The saying around here is "do what works and if it doesn't work, try something else". The key is figuring out what works in your particular situation and go from there.
I agree with Job. (Always a safe bet.) Do more of what works and less of what doesn't.
If it works for your sitch, that's more significant than anything we say.
Ups and downs:
Well, last week was feeling great. We were connected, talking, physically intimate and then we had the run in with POM and now she doesn't want me to get too close to her in any way. I'm trying to detach and remain the same, as if I don't care that she wants to keep a few feet away from me. This stinks, but I've gotta remain strong--keep doing what I'm doing because it's what I want to do and not let her moods dictate mine, but it still stinks.
I know I'm not supposed to initiate R talks but what do you do when your S is obviously angry about something and doesn't say anything (my W stuffs her feelings). Do you ignore it or ask what is bothering you?
Is that a typo? Your S is angry, or your W is angry? Not sure what is DB way but I'd probably talk to her about it and validate her feelings, but avoid giving solutions or discussing the overall marriage.
Your W being upset after your encounter w/ OM makes sense to me. She's intoxicated on this fantasy of setting up a parallel life w/ the OM, and seeing you and OM having a friendly, comfortable exchange disturbs and intrudes upon her fantastical view of the world.
I think it's good that she's upset over it. It's good for her to realize that something is wrong w/ the picture as she sees it.
Aren't you trying to build emotional connection with your wife?
I mig say, "It looks like something is bothering you. Do you want to talk about it?
""
If she does, follow FG's advice.
If she doesn't, let it drop without implying in any way (words, tone of voice, facial expression) that you think she should discuss it with you.
ForGump and Rose,
Thank you for the advice. I think I hesitated in bringing it up because it's what I usually do and it probably relates to POM. W gives me the silent treatment and I have to break the ice and get her to talk. I'm not a mind reader but I think what was bothering her was the three way interaction with POM and it always turns out badly when we discuss him. As FG indicated, maybe our interaction was reality again intruding on her fantasy.
So what did I do instead? I tried something the DB coach suggested for me. I made her laugh which I never do. I told her about all the funny things that happened to me during my day. It definitely broke the ice and she let me give her a peck on the cheek when I left this morning which was a huge improvement over her actively avoiding my presence yesterday. Did I feel like we were sweeping something under the rug? Yes. Did I feel I created an emotional connection? Yes. Was it the right thing to do? I don't know.
Maybe I'll ask her about it later today or tonight using Rose's language if it feels right.
***
One of many things bothering me about my situation is my W sometimes admits we have a good M. But she wants a great and very different M. Our M is safe and boring and predictable and there are things she wants to do and be and explore that she can't if she is M.
Another relatedness issue I struggle with: W hints that all romantic R have a dominant and a submissive (and I'm not talking about sex). She no longer wants to be the submissive and doesn't think I can be the submissive so she needs a new romantic partner. What do you make of this R paradigm and how can I address this issue?
I wouldn't bring it up with her. I think you handled it brilliantly and broke the ice. I'd leave it alone.
I don't buy into your wife's R paradigm. No real suggestions on that, since she has rejected marriage counseling, which is my first suggestion. Hopefully someone else has an idea.
One of many things bothering me about my situation is my W sometimes admits we have a good M. But she wants a great and very different M. Our M is safe and boring and predictable and there are things she wants to do and be and explore that she can't if she is M.
This is problematic with the MLCrs .... they have a fantasy all mapped out in their heads of how euphoric M should be. This is by definition Disillusionment and its one of the stages of a marriage when one realizes that their spouse may not have lived up to all those things one fantasized since they were little. Truth is ... NO ONE will live up to these things so either they accept this as truth, or they struggle with the lie they told themselves, and in a MLCr this fuels the "Why I can not be with you" campign they desperately try to convince themselves.
You can not fix this, she must arrive at the place where she realizes she actually has it pretty good and you are in fact her # 1 choice. Stay the course but just know where this is coming from so it keeps you from spinning.
Another relatedness issue I struggle with: W hints that all romantic R have a dominant and a submissive (and I'm not talking about sex). She no longer wants to be the submissive and doesn't think I can be the submissive so she needs a new romantic partner. What do you make of this R paradigm and how can I address this issue?
Again ... she has found this new inner person whom she is starting to listen to. Again more fuel on what she thinks she wants. Truth be told, I have not found many women who desire a submissive male .... not that they want a dominant A hold 24 7. Normally when BD hits a good number of guys turn submissive, pursue, beg and plead which makes them appear weak only making the MLCr/WAW run faster ... its not till he GAL, PMA, and 180's his way through that the WAW takes notice and starts to question her choice.
I would not address this nor change it ... IMHO she may openly complain about it to you but I would bet dollars to donuts its something she finds attractive in your personality.
So what did I do instead? I tried something the DB coach suggested for me. I made her laugh which I never do. I told her about all the funny things that happened to me during my day. It definitely broke the ice and she let me give her a peck on the cheek when I left this morning which was a huge improvement over her actively avoiding my presence yesterday. Did I feel like we were sweeping something under the rug? Yes. Did I feel I created an emotional connection? Yes. Was it the right thing to do? I don't know.
Maybe I'll ask her about it later today or tonight using Rose's language if it feels right.
***
One of many things bothering me about my situation is my W sometimes admits we have a good M. But she wants a great and very different M. Our M is safe and boring and predictable and there are things she wants to do and be and explore that she can't if she is M.
Another relatedness issue I struggle with: W hints that all romantic R have a dominant and a submissive (and I'm not talking about sex). She no longer wants to be the submissive and doesn't think I can be the submissive so she needs a new romantic partner. What do you make of this R paradigm and how can I address this issue?
Hello Gordie,
Great job on doing something unexpected and making your wife laugh! Glad you felt an emotional connection. You asked if it was the right thing to do and that is a really good question to ask your DB Coach.
I agree with Rose regarding not asking your W about it tonight.
Please give me a call at 303-444-7004 when you want to schedule another session.
Cristy
Resource Coordinator
The Divorce Busting Center
303-444-7004
Well, this is a new/bad development. I thought I created some connection last night but tonight, W was back to not wanting to get too physically close to me. She was willing to talk to me, but didn't look me in the eye and had a hardened look on her face all night. Breathe deeply. Give her space. Take care of the kids. Take care of myself. Pray for our family. Avoid the temptation to mind read.
***This is problematic with the MLCrs .... they have a fantasy all mapped out in their heads of how euphoric M should be. This is by definition Disillusionment and its one of the stages of a marriage when one realizes that their spouse may not have lived up to all those things one fantasized since they were little. Truth is ... NO ONE will live up to these things so either they accept this as truth, or they struggle with the lie they told themselves, and in a MLCr this fuels the "Why I can not be with you" campign they desperately try to convince themselves. You can not fix this, she must arrive at the place where she realizes she actually has it pretty good and you are in fact her # 1 choice. Stay the course but just know where this is coming from so it keeps you from spinning.***
This is great advice. Yes, I definitely feel like I am spinning. Yes, she keeps telling herself and me reasons why we have to D for her to be free. How can I show her I'm her #1 choice? Or I can't and just let her go through her MLC process, however long that takes?
***Again ... she has found this new inner person whom she is starting to listen to. Again more fuel on what she thinks she wants. Truth be told, I have not found many women who desire a submissive male .... not that they want a dominant A hold 24 7. Normally when BD hits a good number of guys turn submissive, pursue, beg and plead which makes them appear weak only making the MLCr/WAW run faster ... its not till he GAL, PMA, and 180's his way through that the WAW takes notice and starts to question her choice. I would not address this nor change it ... IMHO she may openly complain about it to you but I would bet dollars to donuts its something she finds attractive in your personality.***
Thanks. This too gets me spinning. And it's not just her inner person, it's her new friends who have these younger, submissive and disposable boyfriends.. There is no use in disagreeing or arguing about it, so I guess I just validate and drink the STFU smoothies, right?
Yes, she's definitely pulling away--as fast as she can to get away from me. But you know what's different? I am. I'm not chasing her. I'm letting her go. It still hurts. I'm still sad. I'm still angry. She needs to chase her fantasy...without me.
No talk of divorce in the past week, but I gave her everything she needs to file several weeks ago so it could be at any time, when she is ready. We still haven't told the kids. I still have made no plans to move out as I said I wouldn't until it was official. Heck, we're still in the same bed, but it's been very cold in there. She has flip flopped a lot, but ever since the incident with the POM, she has hardened her heart.
Yes, we still speak to each other, but she keeps her emotional and physical distance. She seems like she's got a lot on her mind and a heavy heart. She gave me a positive comment on one of my GAL activities. That was unexpected.
I've been letting her take the lead on physical touch, so if she doesn't want a touch or a kiss hello or a kiss goodbye, it's not happening. It feels awkward but I definiteiy don't want to kiss someone who doesn't want to be kissed. Truthfully, I miss being physical and being physically desired, but I guess this is all part of the process.
I do still pray that my M gets saved before D, but if not before D, then after D. And I pray for my children, my poor children. They shouldn't have to go through this. And I pray for my W, that she would be healed from her wounds, that she find what she is looking for, and that she can be happy. And I pray for me, that I learn and grow and change in the way that God desires and that I can be happy too, with or wolithout my W.
Now that my W's heart has hardened (it was like a switch was flipped), I feel this classic sandi2 advice applies to me:
I'm sure it must be very difficult for you, but please understand that a WAW is a different creature from the girl you M. The girl you M was in love with you. Your WAW no longer feels in love with you. Your bride wanted you to fill her up emotionally. The woman you have now feels emotionally dead to you. You used to be all she thought about and she wanted to please you. Somewhere, that faded away. She wanted you to compliment her when you thought she looked great. Now, it kind of irks her to hear it from you. She admired and respected you as a man, But she has neither for you now. She wanted to be with you sexually. But now she no longer desires you.
Even when PT is not the primary LL, people in love still want to be touched by their S. People who have a high drive may still have sex with their S, but the in-love feelings aren't there. People on the board have different opinions about having sex with a WAS. If there was always a healthy sex life in the M......who knows? But if she wasn't the one who usually initiated, IMHO I would have to say she isn't interested. "Most" WAW's feel completely "done" with the M. Once done.....she feels that's it. Can't go any further with it, and won't try.
She doesn't get to that point overnight. The WAW feels very unhappy, neglected, and lonely for a long time. The H may say it's not true, but it's her feelings and it's how she remembers it (right or wrong). She feels "empty" and then she begins to feel "dead" inside.
When she feels dead, she's in an extremely vulnerable position. B/c the first male who says just the right words to make her feels special, makes her feel pretty, or young & sexy.....she is in danger of stepping into an emotional realm that will thrive on her emotions. The more ego food she gets, the stronger the emotional fantasy.....and pretty soon, you've got a monster who has replaced the girl you M.
Yes, she will start looking really good! She'll work out, dress in younger looking clothes, change her hair, wear more make-up, and some start hitting the party life. (That's why I personally think she has another man's attention....or is looking.) I mean, you have to ask yourself why is she suddenly doing this (especially when she's so obviously disinterested in her H). And if there isn't a "why", then you have to ask yourself who. It is usually a who that sets off the ego spark in a woman (who has felt dead for a long time). Once she feels that little spark, she sees there's life after death, and she's not about to give it up.
Now, your nature will want to do all those things you should have done a long time ago. But you see, she doesn't want you to do it now. In fact, if you try to do it now, it will backfire and make her pull away quicker than ever. That brings me back to the touching. Some DB coaches have advised certain folks to do a little touch to see the response. Depending on that particular stitch. But it sure doesn't happen in all cases! B/c the WAW is no longer attracted to her H, and she no longer desires his attention, compliments, or touches. In fact, she goes to the extreme the other direction from her old self. It seems anything he does simply turns her off, and that's why anything that resembles romantic intentions will get you bad results. And each time a LBH tries that route, she has to show him that she's serious about ending the M, b/c she thinks you aren't accepting it.
Gordie, tough times ...
But keep in mind right now is the time you need to DB the most. Be warm and super steady.
I don't wish this experience on anyone, but I'm glad to have your voice in this forum.
Yes, I feel like this is the end. We didn't want to be in my presence tonight. I just gave her space. I did not pursue or initiate conversation. I spent the evening with the kids.
We only spoke a few words to each other the whole night (probably the least we have spoken to each other in 20 years, even when traveling). I didn't ask about her day (I usually do), nor did she ask me about my day. She did ask me a D question because she has a meeting set up with her L. I told ForGump, I'm not good a distant (emotionally and physically not pursuing) and friendly. When I am distant, I know I am cold. How can I be distant and friendly?
Dang, it's been five days since my W's hardening and my non-pursuit/LRT. It does feel like she is ignoring me and I am ignoring her. How does this help things? Is my non-pursuit/ignoring/LRT just more of the same for us...and what I did to contribute to the death of our M in the first place? I feel like I am in a panic.
I re-read the section of when nothing is working, as that is where I feel I am. One of the reasons MWD gives of why it's not working is that when some spouses decide the M is over (my fear after the last incident with POM), it is and there's nothing the LBS can do about it. Her advice is you can't mind read and know if that is your situation and keep trying things until you just can't anymore.
She also suggests looking for signs of hope, so here are the only ones I can come up with over the past 48 hours: (1) W's unsolicited compliment on one of my GAL activities, and (2) W's initiating physical contact by asking me for a massage (this after a day when she didn't want to be any more than three feet from me).
God, help me. I'm really, really desperate (hopefully, I'm not showing it).
I think I missed something. Why are you doing LRT?
Do you think not pursuing is the same thing as LRT?
Are you generally a distant person? I ask, because I'm not. I tend toward over sharing. So when people say, "act like you're talking to a neighbor" that doesn't mean the same thing for all of us.
Iknow our situations are different, and those differences might be key here, but for me, distancing backfired. It was far more effective for me to be me but to work on living my life without letting the situation with H affect my mood.
So in that way, it was like a neighbor. If I see my neighbor, we talk, I ask about her day, I talk about mine, I commiserate if she's having a bad day--but her bad day does not make me have a bad day.
Not sure any of this is useful, but hopefully something in there sparks an idea.
Rose, thank you--always helpful.
***I think I missed something. Why are you doing LRT?***
Over the weekend, the kids saw my W through the window at her place of business. We went in and W and POM were there alone working (nothing unusual) and the interaction was friendly and casual. When next I saw my W a few hours later, it was like a switch was flipped and her heart was totally turned off to me. She couldn't stand to be in my presence. She couldn't look me in the eye. This has never happened before.
***Do you think not pursuing is the same thing as LRT?***
Yes, I see LRT as not pursuing in the extreme, but maybe I'm not understanding...make that probably not understanding (though I keep reading those sections of the book).
***Are you generally a distant person? I ask, because I'm not. I tend toward over sharing. So when people say, "act like you're talking to a neighbor" that doesn't mean the same thing for all of us.***
Well, I'm generally a distant person to strangers, but not distant around friends and family. For me, I would not ask my neighbor how their day was or how they are feeling. I wave and smile and say hello. That's about all I did with W yesterday. Gosh, what you said never occurred to me. Maybe I need to be a warm and friendly neighbor!
***I know our situations are different, and those differences might be key here, but for me, distancing backfired.***
Yes, in the past, distancing has backfired (more of the same), so I have not been following that approach.
***It was far more effective for me to be me but to work on living my life without letting the situation with H affect my mood. So in that way, it was like a neighbor. If I see my neighbor, we talk, I ask about her day, I talk about mine, I commiserate if she's having a bad day--but her bad day does not make me have a bad day.***
Wow, that is eye opening. Maybe I'm letting my W's feelings and actions determine my feelings and actions (opposite of detachment). She was pushing me away, so I was trying to give her even more space, but am afraid it gets interpreted as me ignoring her. Maybe as FG reminded me above, I just need to be warm and steady.
***Not sure any of this is useful, but hopefully something in there sparks an idea.***
Yes, as always Rose, you are a font of wisdom.
How can I be distant and friendly?
I'm probably the wrong guy to answer this since my W is divorcing me but what I tried to do is to be warm & friendly while interacting, but severely limit those interactions, both in number and duration.
G--
I think you might be right that you're mirroring your W's moods, and that's not necessarily helpful.
When my W's head is filled with feelings, hopes, fantasies of another man... that's when she's the coldest to me. She HAS to be cold to me, to keep her emotional world consistent. She can't simultaneously soak up her passionate fantasies for other men while being kind and warm to me.
I think the same type of dynamic might explain why your W was so cold to you after she spent a few hours w/ POM. Her head (and heart) was still trapped in her fantasy, and she had to keep you out of that world.
I re-read the section of when nothing is working, as that is where I feel I am. One of the reasons MWD gives of why it's not working is that when some spouses decide the M is over (my fear after the last incident with POM), it is and there's nothing the LBS can do about it. Her advice is you can't mind read and know if that is your situation and keep trying things until you just can't anymore.
Gordie, I will not contradict advice MWD gives, but you must realize that in MLC the tactics are similar but its more of the long game mindset. Things we do with a MLCr will not always provide immediate results for starters .... add that in with the fact they think these things you are doing are nothing but a ploy to trick them back into the miserable marriage they are so desperate to get out of. Summary .. They do not trust your changes are for real nor will they stick ... keep at it, though it may feel counter intuitive and not yielding results.
Over the weekend, the kids saw my W through the window at her place of business. We went in and W and POM were there alone working (nothing unusual) and the interaction was friendly and casual. When next I saw my W a few hours later, it was like a switch was flipped and her heart was totally turned off to me. She couldn't stand to be in my presence. She couldn't look me in the eye. This has never happened before.
This is a MLC trait, mine is horrible at this, still is. I link it to the guilt they wrestle with. On one hand they must prove to you, themselves and everyone watching this choice they are making is for the best ... deep down they know and they struggle terribly with it which is why they can not look you in the eye.
Maybe I need to be a warm and friendly neighbor!
Thats a good approach, keeping in mind that your neighbor may be nice one day and poop on your lawn later that night.
Yes, in the past, distancing has backfired (more of the same), so I have not been following that approach.
If you read a bit .. various sitches ... distancing is more for the LBS as a boundary, self protection. It only backfires when you are trying to use it to shock them out of the crisis, when you attach expectations on it or use it in a punishing way.
Wow, that is eye opening. Maybe I'm letting my W's feelings and actions determine my feelings and actions (opposite of detachment). She was pushing me away, so I was trying to give her even more space, but am afraid it gets interpreted as me ignoring her. Maybe as FG reminded me above, I just need to be warm and steady.
You have to find YOU. The guy you lost along the way, not many of us can make it through a 20 year relationship without losing chunks of who we are along the way ... this was the person who was confident and attractive ... it surely was what your W was drawn to. Now she sees the shell of a man who was, or this person who did not live up to what she thought he would be ..... now to be honest none of us would live up to that. Its Disillusionment on our spouses part and tied with MLC its the fuel that sends them running along with the issue they are not willing to face at this time in the crisis. ALL THIS IS OUT OF YOUR CONTROL
The one thing you can control is you. Find yourself ... GAL, 180 PMA .. all that. Do things that push you out of your comfort zone and rediscover yourself. Its really all you can do while allowing them to go through their journey.
In your case its more difficult with her there .. the constant reminder day in and day out. Some would love for the MLCr to be under their roof ... others the opposite. Having been exposed to both, I personally prefer not being in the front row seat watching the crisis for my own sanity. So accept this is where things are and give yourself time away doing things ... she may act like it doesn't matter and ignore you but she is noticing I assure you.
Gordie,
I'm going to suggest that you read ForeverYoung's threads and as well as HaWho's threads. Both have spouses living under the same roof, in MLC...one wife and one husband. They both have have had their ups and downs but have figured out what works in their particular situations and trust me...this is not a sprint, but a marathon. It takes a long time to actually see progress on the MLCers side of the fence. That's why it is important to work on you and also keep the focus on you and your family. You didn't break her, therefore you can't fix her.
I had a lot lined up to say but due to lack of time and the good words from others I will keep this short.
OM is important in all of this. You cannot be seen as accepting of this. As cadet tells many you need to say you will not be in a R with her if there is another person. In your case, this may not be necessary as she has told you her stance and she wants other man.
This is important for several reasons. Firstly any turn around will take longer. Much longer. Secondly how you react affects her opinion of you. It is not what she thinks immediately (as likely to be negative regardless) but what she thinks when she looks back on how you treated her in this crisis.
Waiting her out is not enough. OM could fall away and that does not mean you will reconcile. That is why he isn't your focus. Is your moving to mlc forum a sign you want to wait her out? I am curious not critical.
Your W's hardening as you put it has been five days. Expect it to last and to worsen. I had planned sharing how I supported my checked out W all this time but first I would like to know how YOU see YOUR stance going forward?
Best wishes
Job,
Thank you so much for pointing me in HaWho's direction. I am reading her old threads and learning a TON...particularly because she is also in a situation with young children. I'll post more after I get to digest them.
CaliGuy,
I'm a big fan of yours, so thanks for checking in:
***Gordie, I will not contradict advice MWD gives, but you must realize that in MLC the tactics are similar but its more of the long game mindset. Things we do with a MLCr will not always provide immediate results for starters .... add that in with the fact they think these things you are doing are nothing but a ploy to trick them back into the miserable marriage they are so desperate to get out of. Summary .. They do not trust your changes are for real nor will they stick ... keep at it, though it may feel counter intuitive and not yielding results.***
Yes!
***This is a MLC trait, mine is horrible at this, still is. I link it to the guilt they wrestle with. On one hand they must prove to you, themselves and everyone watching this choice they are making is for the best ... deep down they know and they struggle terribly with it which is why they can not look you in the eye.***
Wow, didn't know this was so common; it was new for me.
***Thats a good approach, keeping in mind that your neighbor may be nice one day and poop on your lawn later that night.***
Hahahahaha.
***If you read a bit .. various sitches ... distancing is more for the LBS as a boundary, self protection. It only backfires when you are trying to use it to shock them out of the crisis, when you attach expectations on it or use it in a punishing way.***
Wow, need to think of this differently...I think I was hoping it would be a shock, but clearly that hasn't worked in the past...
***You have to find YOU. The guy you lost along the way, not many of us can make it through a 20 year relationship without losing chunks of who we are along the way ... this was the person who was confident and attractive ... it surely was what your W was drawn to. Now she sees the shell of a man who was, or this person who did not live up to what she thought he would be ..... now to be honest none of us would live up to that. Its Disillusionment on our spouses part and tied with MLC its the fuel that sends them running along with the issue they are not willing to face at this time in the crisis. ALL THIS IS OUT OF YOUR CONTROL
The one thing you can control is you. Find yourself ... GAL, 180 PMA .. all that. Do things that push you out of your comfort zone and rediscover yourself. Its really all you can do while allowing them to go through their journey.***
Wow, lots of homework to do on this one...
***In your case its more difficult with her there .. the constant reminder day in and day out. Some would love for the MLCr to be under their roof ... others the opposite. Having been exposed to both, I personally prefer not being in the front row seat watching the crisis for my own sanity. So accept this is where things are and give yourself time away doing things ... she may act like it doesn't matter and ignore you but she is noticing I assure you.***
Thanks, we're under the same roof now, but that may be changing soon...stay tuned...for better or for worse...
***OM is important in all of this. You cannot be seen as accepting of this. As cadet tells many you need to say you will not be in a R with her if there is another person. In your case, this may not be necessary as she has told you her stance and she wants other man.***
I've told her I don't want to be in a three way relationship. At first she told me that's what she wanted (bomb drop request for cake eating), but now think she wants a clear break from me...
***This is important for several reasons. Firstly any turn around will take longer. Much longer. Secondly how you react affects her opinion of you. It is not what she thinks immediately (as likely to be negative regardless) but what she thinks when she looks back on how you treated her in this crisis. Waiting her out is not enough. OM could fall away and that does not mean you will reconcile. That is why he isn't your focus. Is your moving to mlc forum a sign you want to wait her out? I am curious not critical.***
I moved to MLC because I found the MLC advice more relevant to my situation. I loved all the advice in newcomers, but some of it just didn't seem to fit my situation. I also recognized my W in more of the MLC threads and see this, as Caliguy said, a long game...waiting her out? Yes, in terms of waiting out her MLC...even through separation or divorce.
***Your W's hardening as you put it has been five days. Expect it to last and to worsen. I had planned sharing how I supported my checked out W all this time but first I would like to know how YOU see YOUR stance going forward?***
I am still in love with and committed to my W...despite her craziness...and still believe in my vows of for better or worse...until death do us part. I know she is hurting (and I am partly to blame for that) and that she is also in fantasy land. I have no interest in dating or being with other women...I only love and want my W...not to mention to raise my kids in an intact family...
Ha! I found you. Gordie.
I see you are still on WAW's emotional roller coaster. She has been unwavering in where your R is headed from what I read. Tell me if I am wrong. You have little choice but to accept it for now since you have already agreed to the S. You are seen as an obstacle to her fantasy coming true.
I agree with the advise that you need not accept her choices about OM. You can't do anything about them, but accept them? No, I don't think so.
From what I read, you spend too much time dwelling on her and too little time dwelling on fixing/strengthening Gordie. I think it is great that you spend time with your kids. Perhaps you should take them on a trip and build those relationships which also frees WAW to be with OM or whatever else she wants to do. Give the fire of her dream some oxygen so that it can burn good and hot.
She seems hell bent on flaming your marriage. While you need to be respectful, I do not believe you need to be luvy duvy. I certainly would not have sex with her at this point. However, my personal preference is to avoid STD's at all cost.
As you dig deeper into Gordie, you will find there is more than enough to keep you busy. Things that need real work. Your R's with your kids are gonna need a bunch of quality time. That means quantity as well.
I hope to see you in a peaceful place soon.
K
***I found you. Gordie.***
Thank you! You are a guardian angel.
***I see you are still on WAW's emotional roller coaster.***
Yes, but I have been better after the advice Rose, Cali and Roist gave.
***She has been unwavering in where your R is headed from what I read. Tell me if I am wrong. You have little choice but to accept it for now since you have already agreed to the S. You are seen as an obstacle to her fantasy coming true.***
Yes, all of that is true. The only thing W is wavering on is if she wants a S or a D. Like ForGump's W, she's also not being realistic about money because there isn't enough to support her fantasy but she doesn't care. She just wants to get the settlement done and figure life out from there.
***I agree with the advise that you need not accept her choices about OM. You can't do anything about them, but accept them? No, I don't think so. ***
What do you mean by not accepting them? No, I won't do a three way sexual R if that's what you are talking about.
***From what I read, you spend too much time dwelling on her and too little time dwelling on fixing/strengthening Gordie.***
You are right and this will be one thing that will be easier when we are not living together.
***I think it is great that you spend time with your kids. Perhaps you should take them on a trip and build those relationships which also frees WAW to be with OM or whatever else she wants to do. Give the fire of her dream some oxygen so that it can burn good and hot.***
I actually already do these trips with the kids without my W, have been for a few years now. We take vacations with W too.
***She seems hell bent on flaming your marriage. While you need to be respectful, I do not believe you need to be luvy duvy.***
I'm working on this. Rose's friendly neighbor and Hawho houseguest ideas have been helpful. Flaming the M? For now, yes. After her fantasy dies? I guess than she will need to decide where she goes from there and I will too.
***I certainly would not have sex with her at this point. However, my personal preference is to avoid STD's at all cost. As you dig deeper into Gordie, you will find there is more than enough to keep you busy. Things that need real work. Your R's with your kids are gonna need a bunch of quality time. That means quantity as well. I hope to see you in a peaceful place soon.***
Thank you for your wisdom and continuing support.
OK the reason I asked about your stance and mentioned OM is because unless you are clear on what lies ahead and how you plan to manage that, you will be dragged around that roller coaster ride like a rag doll in a hurricane. Get out of the storm that is brewing.
She wants out, so she is out. She wants OM, so you are out. There is no R now. As long as OM is in the picture you need to not be in that R. Simple to say. Difficult to implement.
This does not mean becoming cold or mean. You are just not interested in any R with her. Switch your focus to working on you, preparing for S and to restart living for YOU.
Best wishes
***OK the reason I asked about your stance and mentioned OM is because unless you are clear on what lies ahead and how you plan to manage that, you will be dragged around that roller coaster ride like a rag doll in a hurricane.***
Roist, I'm not clear on what lies ahead. In the short-term, W could (i) get rejected by POM if POM wants to stay with his GF (W is afraid of this) or (ii) make POM her new BF if POM dumps his GF (she doesn't want a three way with the GF...but thought I would be okay with a three way with the POM, sigh). If (ii), W has said it can't get too serious any time soon because cohabitation or M would cause an end to her alimony.
***Get out of the storm that is brewing.***
What do you mean? What are you suggesting?
***She wants out, so she is out. She wants OM, so you are out. There is no R now. As long as OM is in the picture you need to not be in that R. Simple to say. Difficult to implement. This does not mean becoming cold or mean. You are just not interested in any R with her.***
Yes, I'm working on Rose's friendly neighbor and Hawho's houseguest path. This is a switch for me, just this week...will post more on that later.
***Switch your focus to working on you, preparing for S and to restart living for YOU.***
I have a L for the separation. I have an IC and DB coach for me. I also have a few good buddies IRL who have been extraordinarily supportive--have even offered to stay with them or help me move when the times comes. I have identified an apartment. I know how I want it set up.
I know this sounds like a dumb, pathetic, sorry-a$$ question...but how do I change my mindset of living for ME? I've been with my W for 20 years...and even in these circumstances, my life still revolves around her and I'm having a hard time changing that. Given all of the hurt and pain and sadness and rejection, this should be easy, but I think about her and her needs and what I can be doing for her ALL THE TIME. I'm sure that sounds totally and utterly pathetic but I'm trying to be honest here. I need a 2x4!
God, help me. I'm really, really desperate (hopefully, I'm not showing it).
Gordie... hang in there, you're a strong man, a good man, and you will come out of the other side of this moment. You've a long journey ahead, and this is one of the twists and turns on that road. It is not the final destination.
I struggle with it, but the key must be staying pleasant without pursuing. I like Rose's advice.
Also, if you meditate, do it when the weight is crushing you like it seems to be now. Get some mindfulness. Get into yourself. Find your inner Gordie, and breathe. Not sure if you are like me, but when the weight of uncertainty is crushing, I really feel like I can't physically breathe. Mindfulness meditation (I use Calm & Headspace apps to help me, like Surfer suggested) really help me to breathe again, just by focusing on the breath and the way it moves within my body.
It could be that your W has realised she was getting closer to you again, and is forcing herself away, swinging one way then the other like a pendulum.
I know your sitch is different to mine, as I believe mine is more keeping me 'under control' and 'temp checking' by her actions, but she went distant and cold after my last blow up about her sexting OM. She moved out of MBR and slept on the mattress until the bed frame arrived, she started talking about selling the house, etc... The WW can be very very good at manipulating emotions, even unconsciously.
Sandi has pointed out, I am like a puppet on a string dancing to her tune. You need to do better than me. Don't let her feelings or displays of affection/coldness alter your perception of the sitch. You need to be taking a longer term view than the day by day, week by week. remember, it's not done until you say it's done.
I'll be thinking of you, be well, my friend.
Short update, don't have time for a longer one.
First, after the feedback from Rose, Cali and ForGump and others, I realized I was letting my W's freak-out affect how I was feeling and acting. So mid-week, I changed course and turned into the friendly, steady neighbor and, as per Hawho's example, treated my W as a houseguest (polite, but nothing intimate--I now wave and say hello and goodbye instead of hugging and kissing). The result was she started acting much more normally, making small talk with me, looking me in the eye, etc. Team, thanks for the help!
Second, and more importantly, W talked to me about proceeding with separation and divorce last night. She accused me of two things which weren't true (1) dragging my feet and (2) being greedy. I was definitely agitated, but kept it together to calmly point out that (1) I gave her everything she needed to file and she's been sitting on it for a month and (2) I am giving her the most important things she asked for (don't want to go into details) which is way, way more than is suggested by the law. She also asked again that we tell the kids and I move out before finalizing the settlement and I held my ground that I didn't want to tell the kids or move out before we had a settlement. She said okay. And at the end of this discussion? She gave me a hug, which was totally unexpected.
Here's what I didn't say: I think she thinks I am being greedy because she is now starting to realize that when you split one person's salary in two--there is less for both H and W! I have tried to tell her this before, but she hasn't acknowledged it. Now that the reality of it is sinking in, it's because I am being greedy.
Gosh, what you said never occurred to me. Maybe I need to be a warm and friendly neighbor!
Are you going to start practicing on your neighbours? Rather than just do it for your W. That would be a 180 in this sitch. See how it feels? (I must admit, I am about as engaging as you with my neighbours, I like to keep myself to myself) I would be interested to hear how you get on if you do go down this route and also if it helps your future interactions with your W.
Hey Gordie - I was playing catch up so my posts may have been a bit out of sync with your life. Great that it the rollercoaster is on the level at the minute, and that your 'friendly neighbour' approach is working for you... just remember, it's to help you rather than for her to react differently. It may be connected, it may not... just keep monitoring as per MWD advice
Don't take this wrong but I smiled reading about how open your W has been with you. I smiled because it is unbelievable not because it is funny. It is probably of little consolation now, but your W is open and honest with you about her feelings and thoughts.That is positive although probably feels insensitive.
I get the feeling you are plan B. Which is better than not being considered but is not where you want to be. Don't be the safe fall back plan.She may not care now, but plant that seed of doubt in her that you are waiting for her.
As for the storm, your resolve to stand and level of hurt will be tested to the limits if she pursues her path. Expect it is coming and detach beforehand. I am glad you are prepared legally and have a support network.
My next point may be hard to grasp but you need to get to the point where you look on S as a good thing. I'm not asking you to want it but to embrace it. It is an opportunity to do whatever you want without the constraints of being married. I'm pro M but not being M does have other opportunities and benefits. Seek those out. Make the most of your new liberty. You can do whatever you want whenever you want. I am not taking about female company but life in general. Films your W would not like. Sports that you didn't have the time for, new hobbies/activities. Carpe dium. Seize the day.
I think those thoughts and feelings are normal but they are not helping you. Focus on something else. There is no magic one thing that you can do to flip this situation. Trying to do so will only push her further away. Let her go. It is only when she feels you are not clinging to her that she may stop fleeing. So letting go will help you get off the roller coaster but also give her the freedom to come back. She cannot come back if you don't let her go
Best wishes
***Don't take this wrong but I smiled reading about how open your W has been with you. I smiled because it is unbelievable not because it is funny. It is probably of little consolation now, but your W is open and honest with you about her feelings and thoughts.That is positive although probably feels insensitive.***
Do you mean how she talks to me about POM and her dreams/plans for the future? Yes, she is open to me about these things. I just try to listen, even when it stabs me in the heart. She also that she's not sure that she's doing the right thing, but that she just has to do it...
***I get the feeling you are plan B. Which is better than not being considered but is not where you want to be. Don't be the safe fall back plan.She may not care now, but plant that seed of doubt in her that you are waiting for her.***
Okay, how do I do that with honesty? She of course doesn't come out and ask me direct questions about my post-separation dating intentions...instead she just makes declarations: you will be married within three years, before I will. This causes me to refute her and tell her I have no interests in dating other women (I know, I shouldn't do this), thus keeping me firmly in her backup plan. What should I say instead? Or just say nothing or say "it's interesting that you feel that way..." More important than my words...what should I DO, short of dating other women?
***As for the storm, your resolve to stand and level of hurt will be tested to the limits if she pursues her path. Expect it is coming and detach beforehand. I am glad you are prepared legally and have a support network.***
I have no doubt she will pursue her path with 100% of her being.
***My next point may be hard to grasp but you need to get to the point where you look on S as a good thing. I'm not asking you to want it but to embrace it. It is an opportunity to do whatever you want without the constraints of being married. I'm pro M but not being M does have other opportunities and benefits. Seek those out. Make the most of your new liberty. You can do whatever you want whenever you want. I am not taking about female company but life in general. Films your W would not like. Sports that you didn't have the time for, new hobbies/activities. Carpe dium. Seize the day.***
Yes, change to a PMA about separation and/or divorce...need to get my head around that!
***I think those thoughts and feelings are normal but they are not helping you. Focus on something else. There is no magic one thing that you can do to flip this situation. Trying to do so will only push her further away. Let her go. It is only when she feels you are not clinging to her that she may stop fleeing. So letting go will help you get off the roller coaster but also give her the freedom to come back. She cannot come back if you don't let her go.***
I'm going to keep repeating that..."she cannot come back if you don't let her go, she cannot come back if you don't let her go"...
(2) I am giving her the most important things she asked for (don't want to go into details) which is way, way more than is suggested by the law.
Here's what I didn't say: I think she thinks I am being greedy because she is now starting to realize that when you split one person's salary in two--there is less for both H and W! I have tried to tell her this before, but she hasn't acknowledged it. Now that the reality of it is sinking in, it's because I am being greedy.
As I read the first part jumped out at me. Looking back at my sitch and others I do feel this is a common mistake us guys make. Somehow we think ok if the state/lawyer says this D will cost me X, I will give her 2or3X to prove to her and myself what a wonderful guy I am ..... this is not going to save your M nor win her back.
I was relieved to read a bit of the second portion because that is what needs to happen. She has to hit bottom and experience life without you, she has to have the fantasy she has been building brick by brick over the past months/years to start showing its true fault lines and cracks. Letting her know if the state says I owe you X is exactly what I will pay is a good start to get them to start thinking about it if nothing more than to educate them on the process.
My stance "This is not what I want, I respect your decision and will not stand in your way, however I will not fund your affair, your divorce, nor your life after it more than the state demands me to as any dollar I donate to your cause is a dollar less our son would have available to him."
For me it really is that simple.
Cali,
Thanks for the reminder that my generosity will not win her back. I do want to be generous but do not want to do something stupid. I think the core problem is that we will both need to make financial sacrifices--she will and I will--and that doesn't match up with her fantasy.
***
I think my new friendly neighbor mindset has been helpful. It makes me realize that my expectations were previously way too high--more than zero. I say hello and goodbye when coming and going and can ask how was your day and not be offended if she gives me a one word response or doesn't ask me how my day was. I can sit in another room and not feel guilty. If she wants me she knows where to find me and it actually has made her initiate more contact. She still wants to play family--dinners, church, etc. She says we'll still do those things after D but Instesd of stressing about the future as I have been I feel like we can cross that bridge when we come to it. W met with her lawyer last week and wants to talk about it. Again, Im trying not to stress out about that. I'll listen and be calm and not commit to anything without thinking it through with counsel as appropriate. She has also significantly scaled back asking me to do things for her, not sure if that is a good or a bad thing.
W has also scaled back all signs of affections--physical and words. Up until this past week, these were daily...now it's come and go. Some days a hug or a kiss on the cheek. Some days nothing. She gave me one ILY which surprised me. I didn't say ILY back which is a change for me. No sex in several weeks. How should I respond when she is affectionate? I don't want to be cold but I want to stop the dance of pursuit and distance. Right now, I'm letting her do all the pursuing. If she hugs I hug her back of course. If she wants to kiss me, I let her. But I don't escalate the physical or words of affection, which is what I would normally do.
W is initiating all sorts of discussions today. No R discussions but about safe topics, asking my opinions, etc. I'm being polite and friendly and thoughtful, and keeping expectations at zero. W can go back to icy cold at any moment.
***
Job gave me a suggestion to read HaWho and ForeverYoung. Some thoughts from HaWho's situation--what an inspiration! I guess the moral of the MLC story is that these are all typical behaviors and I can't do anything about them and they shouldn't bother me, right? Just be steady, validate and keep my mouth shut?
1. It never dawned on me that my W was treating me like her father but the more I think about it, the more I see it. W is in rebellion against the role of women in society/marriage/religion and the oppression her mother experienced. The person she previously directed that anger was her father...but now it is directed towards me, even though I am the opposite of her father in every way--W says this is why she married me.
2. Sometimes my W identifies with our teenage girls. She borrows their clothes and wants to be with a man closer to their age. She was bantering with them about what celebrities they'd like to mess around with and which ones are more the marrying type. What does this do to the mother-daughter dynamic?
3. W is also obsessed with her looks and aging, diet and exercise, surgical and non surgical cosmetic procedures, not telling anyone her age (and getting annoyed with me if I reveal anything indicating her real age). She looks awesome for a woman in her 40s but she wants to be mistaken for someone in her 20s or 30s.
4. W also spends money like its limitless. W gets upset with any attempts to control her spending (I am being controlling or greedy).
Hi Gordie - saw your post on my thread and wanted to jump over here to say thanks for the very kind words.
Like you are the opposite of your FIL, I am the polar opposite of my MIL. We have virtually nothing in common, neither in interests nor opinions. In fact, before she knew I played tennis at a fairly competitive level, she once told me she was 'horrified' that women participated in anything other than dance! She said women had no business being in sports!!
Anyway, I noticed pretty early on that my h kept trying to make me his mother. In the early days when he was zombie-like from the fog he actually gave me 'permission' to do several crazy things his mother did when he was little. I told him I was not his mother and I had zero interest in being her. This was before I knew this was MLC; back when I thought he must have a brain tumor (he was that confused.)
Just don't let yourself become the authority figure. For me, things changed when I started to smile and say "have fun" as he was going out during his hey day of replay. Then when the door closed I would go find all sorts of ways to vent all my resentment and anger; lots of rugged hikes mostly. (I wanted to make a voodoo doll of him though.) Prior to that, any whiff of disapproval from me and h doubled down. If she's running all around, try it and see what that does. Just act as if it doesn't bother you one bit.
And try hard not to watch her. I was horrible at this. I had owl eyes for the longest time. It was so astounding what I was witnessing. I just couldn't believe it.
In general, I would mirror her but be vanilla. Listen, validate and try not to linger or draw out conversations. Try to seem a touch distracted. In the early days this helped me, too. I always left conversations first. (This was a 180 for me, at first it felt like I was being rude.)
My h also tried to act like he was in his 20's. He became besties with men who had never been married.
As for your wife's interest in younger men, I am sure she wants to prove that she can still be attractive to a 20 year old. My h thought EVERY woman wanted him. He is attractive for sure. But, he did not seem to grasp the concept that, most likely, any 20 or 30 year old with her act together wouldn't be interested in him. A-he was married. B-she would probably naturally gravitate to a similarly aged man, not to a man her father's age.
They really do live in a parallel universe.
Just focus on you. Be polite but a touch aloof. Like you are okay and moving forward.
Wow, great advice/insight.
1. You are right, any hint of criticism results in a rage. I didn't connect that with her seeing and rebelling against me as an authority figure, wow.
2. My W's POM makes no sense at all, except for his age and the fact that he sees my W as an authority figure (she is his boss)--never connected those dots. I know it is her fantasy but don't know why he would leave his GF to be with a woman 20 years his senior with a H or XH and 5 children.
3. I watch her all the time. How do I stop? Yes, and I need to focus more on me. I haven't really done this despite everyone here telling me this is what I have to do!
4. What do you mean by mirror but be vanilla?
Venting:
My love languages are words of affirmation and physical touch. In my W's current state, I get criticism for everything I do and everything I am; and she is now avoiding my physical touch. Ugh, I do my best to not let it bother me but the truth is that it does. It really, really hurts.
Focusing on me. Things I want to change about me, brainstorming:
*Further strengthen relationships with children, more one on one time
*Live a simpler, less materialistic life; get rid of stuff
*Be happier, more joyful, smile and laugh more (not sad and grumpy)
*Learn how to better manage my emotions (avoid stuffing/falling apart)
*Exercise more of my creative and artistic self
*Cultivate my spiritual life and fellowship; read the Bible and pray more
*Do more things just for fun; allow myself to be frivolous
*Process my own family of origin issues and fear of abandonment
*Make further strides in strength and conditioning
*Improve my financial life/reduce debt
*Spend more time with friends
*Get a new, more promising job
*Read more books for pleasure
*Go to the movies, concerts and sporting events that I like
So W met with L and wants to proceed with D and not separation. Does this make me a DB failure? Sigh.
It absolutely does not make you a failure. Your worth is not synched to your marriage. It takes two to marry and only one (crazy) person to uncouple. You can't control her.
And, even those who do reconcile after MLC acknowledge that it is up to the MLCer to work through those issues. It's not as though that LBS did everything "right" and is therefore a "success." And, conversely, those whose marriages are not restored are not failures. No one can fix those issues for the MLCer, he/she has to do it and then wake up enough to want to try to work on the m, if the LBS is even still around.
I am sorry she wants this though. But it's about her and her issues.
As for what I meant for be "vanilla," I meant try not to be reactive. She will say all sorts of crazy things (as you have seen). Try not to engage, reason with her, react with body language, etc. Try to listen and validate if there is something to validate. Otherwise, try to stay out of her space.
As for not watching, personally, for the longest time, I had to leave the house to keep from rubber necking.
As you can see, your w, currently is a broken version of herself. The reason your m will not work right now is she emotionally has regressed. She will seek out band-aids to make her feel better (younger clothes, running around, spending, vitamins, diets, OM, etc.).
From my understanding, it is the child within MLC who has the affair. (And they have to affair down as the pickings are slim when one is so broken.) They choose a partner who is on their emotional level. I believe, usually, the child (on a subconscious level) picks someone whom they can work through their various issues.
You are the prize. Hold your head up high, square your shoulders and take care of you. She has to figure things out for herself.
Gordie,
I'm sorry this is happening but it is par for the MLC course. And no it doesn't make you a DB failure. Keep your focus and you and your kids, they will really need you while your W is out in MLC land. I like your list of goals, they focus on you GALing and your kids. Unfortunately there is nothing we can do except take care our ourselves while our SO is set on their path.
If you haven't already go speak with/retain a good attorney asap. Shop around if you need to.
Take care or yourself we are all here for you.
Gordie,
I hear you and can feel your pain. We all come here hoping we can do something, anything... even if the mantra is to focus on ourselves.
I like your list. I am not a believer, but I hope your faith gives you strength.
Gordie,
Please do not look at yourself as a failure. You are doing everything possible to save your marriage. Unfortunately, your spouse is broken and the only way that she sees "feeling better" is filing for the divorce. MLCers are broken at a very early age by being emotionally stunted by someone in authority. It could have been her father, mother, relative, teacher, etc., but she wasn't recognized for her accomplishments or listened to by the authority figure. Some MLCers have been abused mentally, emotionally and/or physically at a young age. If she was not able to navigate each quarter life crisis, they will eventually end up having a midlife crisis.
DB is not just to help you save your marriage, but it's a way of life to help you navigate the bends, bumps and holes in your life's path. Now, pick yourself up, dust yourself off and continue being the best Gordie that you can be. Just because she's gone to a lawyer, that doesn't mean it's the end of your story. Anything can happen along the way. She could drag the divorce out for a long period of time. For instance, My xh filed and then proceeded to drag it out for two years and when I stopped the bantering back and forth between the lawyers, he then pressed forward.
The bottom line is this, if you have faith and hope, you can get through anything. The past is gone, the future is the here and now and no one knows what the future holds. Live life to the fullest and let's hope and pray that she'll come to here senses soon.
HaWho--"Your worth is not synched to your marriage. It takes two to marry and only one (crazy) person to uncouple. You can't control her."...thank you for reminding me of this. You are right, the M will not work right now. I just having a hard time accepting that this is actually happening!
Kyh--"Keep your focus and you and your kids, they will really need you while your W is out in MLC land"...yes, I really have to shift my attention away from my W. And yes, I already have an attorney. I've had him on retainer but haven't really engaged him yet as I wasn't sure my W was going to pull the trigger.
ForGump--"I hope your faith gives you strength"...yes, it does, even when my prayers aren't answered in the way/time I want them to be, I know God is there and will continue to look out for me. Your W had you served last week...my W will likely serve me this week or next...need to order another round!
Job--"Just because she's gone to a lawyer, that doesn't mean it's the end of your story. Anything can happen along the way. She could drag the divorce out for a long period of time. For instance, My xh filed and then proceeded to drag it out for two years and when I stopped the bantering back and forth between the lawyers, he then pressed forward." Two years, really?
One of the questions I have is that we're still under the same roof and in the same bed, do I switch tactics now, or just keep doing what I've been doing? W's L estimates from filing to finalization, that this should take a month. So at least one more month before I move out.
***
Journaling:
So last night after our D discussion, W acts like everything is normal and is unusually chatty with me about non-D stuff. I engaged like a friendly neighbor, but was feeling a shallow sadness, accepting and not denying my reality. I didn't sleep well, tossed and turned all night, kept praying for God's help, and woke up tired. I was happy it was a Monday so I could leave the house for work. W gives me a kiss goodbye and then texts me something about the kids while I'm on my way to work.
Gordie,
I would continue as you have been. Your wife is clearly a confused woman and is bouncing all over the place. Try to keep the focus on you and your children.
Really interesting insightful posts from Amyc re her MLC mindset saved by cadet:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2253741&page=1As an exWAS, I have to say, I think I EXPECTED that my husband knew the things that pissed me off...so I never really even tried to talk about it. I guess I was under that stupid impression that if he loved me, he'd change (God, was I THAT ignorant!? UGH!) So it really did just snowball and instead of trying to talk about it reasonably like an adult, I got derailed by MLC and then couldn't even manage to form a coherent friggin sentence that would begin to explain the garbage in my head. BUT, while IN the MLC, I told my husband that he'd had plenty of time to turn things around.
1. It is almost impossible for me to comprehend that they don't see any of it, none at all?
See what exactly? We know we're b*tches from hell but what we DON'T fully comprehend is WHY. It takes a long time for that to begin to come clear. MLC is rooted in unresolved issues, aging and thinking about possible things we might have missed out on, thoughts of 'what I might be able to do if I left this bullsh*t behind...after all, I'm only getting older'... it is rooted in the mundane things we do everyday and no one notices anymore. We might have woken up and realized we have no identity other than "wife and mother" and everything inside us starts screaming PAY ATTENTION TO ME. You most likely don't see much of that internal stuff until it overflows in the form of anger that has you looking at us like our heads just spun around on our shoulders because you asked if, while we're out, we can pick you up something at the store (or something equally stupid). So there it is. The anger and confusion that has festered is now fullblown MLC and you're about to start sleeping with one eye open for however long you stay under the same roof.
2. And nothing, nothing at all can reach her? Amy, did you have family and friends (not H) pulling you aside for any reality checks?
I had every single person absolutely convinced that I knew what I was doing. I had so deluded myself, that everyone else fell right into line supporting me.
3. Did they see what was going on, and now in retrospect, accurately lay it out in front of you as to what you were doing and how you were acting?
No one had a clue. Only since coming out of MLC and WALKING BACK have I told the story in it's entirety to my family. My mother, grandmother, aunt, sister...they ALL know what MLC is now. But they never knew I was so screwed up.
4. Did they tell you that you have your head up your a** and you're the only one that can't see how silly this is? And if so, it meant nothing to you?
I can tell you beyond the shadow of a doubt that there was NOTHING ANYONE could have said to me that would have moved me. As an example, right smack dab in the middle of my MLC, while practicing adultery, I sat my self-righteous butt in church and my Pastor pointed his finger straight at me one day during an altar call and he said to me "how long are you going to sit there?"
AmyC's posts were eyeopening. The las paragraph says it all..."I can tell you beyond the shadow of a doubt that there was NOTHING ANYONE could have said to me that would have moved me. As an example, right smack dab in the middle of my MLC, while practicing adultery, I sat my self-righteous butt in church and my Pastor pointed his finger straight at me one day during an altar call and he said to me "how long are you going to sit there?"
There is nothing we as the LBS can do or say to get them to snap out of it. Only going thru the process will tell whether they will wake up.
7 Make no mistake: God is not mocked, for a person will reap only what he sows, 8 because the one who sows for his flesh will reap corruption from the flesh, but the one who sows for the spirit will reap eternal life from the spirit. 9 Let us not grow tired of doing good, for in due time we shall reap our harvest, if we do not give up. Galatians 6:7-9
Yes, I found that part eye opening too. Thank you for that scripture...awesome!
In an unrelated note:
What is the right MLC strategy to avoid being Plan B? I'm feeling that's where I am in my W's mind, in case her fantasy doesn't work out. I of course have encouraged this by our initial R talks (pre DB) where I said I would always be there for her and that I was letting her go in the hope that she would come back to me...that even if she could have any man in the world that she would choose me! I know dating is one strategy, but don't think that would be right for me.
Hi Gordie - I just wanted to stop by and say hello. I'm new here so like you, I'm looking for wisdom. I read your post on my thread and responded, but I'm still in moderation so either it's just out there somewhere waiting or I messed it up somehow.
Anyhow, I've spent a lot of time today reading lots of threads on the boards and I've read all of this one. I just wanted to say hang in there. You and I seem to be at the same point on this ride. I'd say high five in solidarity, but that seems too upbeat. Maybe that salute from the hunger games? That's more what it feels like to me, anyhow.
Have a good night, hope that you're able to rest. I find that the hardest, when I'm alone to think instead of sleeping. It's good to be here among friends.
Hahaha... salute? Fist bump? I look forward to hearing your answers. I'm better at asking questions than answering them at this point.
My heart broke reading your story. You are a good writer! Keep posting as it really does force you to crystallize your thoughts and for me, it's that process which calms my mind and let's me process them and let go of them.
My favorite sleeping tactics? I'm not a big drinker but a whiskey before bed does wonders and is safer than sleeping pills. And when I wake up spinning with thoughts in the middle of the night? I have a prayer that I repeat over and over again until I fal back asleep and if that takes a long time, at least I've prayed a lot!
Whiskey is hard core! I had 3/4 of a bottle of wine when I found out about the office rumors on Friday night. It didn't help me sleep that time though. My doctor gave me xanax to sleep, but I try not to take it more than a couple of times a week so I don't make a habit out of it.
I have a prayer I say too - my sister posted this verse to her FB page a few weeks ago. "Whatever you ask in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." Mark 11:24
I struggle with my faith in times like these and often think why should I pray since there is supposed to be a Plan and why would my prayers influence it? When I'm in the right frame of mind I can get some relief saying "Thy will be done" or the serenity prayer, but most of the time I have trouble believing it. So I go back to that verse from Mark and I pray, but it's more like a mantra: "I ask You to restore our marriage. I believe You can, I know You can. I believe You will, I know You will." I think that's how I'm going to try to stay strong (in addition to GAL and working on myself).
Do you journal? I do like to write (I do not prefer to talk, oddly) so when I'm feeling really bad or can't sleep I journal. But my journal is just a series of letters to him, saying all the things that are on my mind that he wouldn't hear if I said them to him anyhow. It gets those emotions out without any damage.
Be careful with the sleeping pills. You don't want to get hooked. I only have a shot on the days when I am really wanting one, not everyday.
This experience is certainly trying on the faith. So many unanswered prayers. I've been reading Psalms and suggest you read Psalm 13. We pray so fervently for God to act now and our timeline but it doesn't work that way. I'm doing everything to draw closer to God in this dark moment, asking God to increase the tiny seed of faith that I have. I'm certain that this is one of the purposes of this trial, to deepen my faith. I was coasting in my marriage, parenting, friends, faith, etc. and God is shaking me up!
I do some joyrnaling but I should do more.
G,
Thanks for dropping by my thread. To answer a comment that you made about not seeing this as a gift, I understand your point. It is a terrible situation and it took me a LONG time to get to that point.
That being said look at some of what you have done which otherwise you may not have for example improved role as a father.
I am not a religious man, but I think you are being too focused on your prayers being unanswered. My understanding of it is God has basically three responses each of which is for your own best interest.
1 Yes. Prayer is answered and you get what you asked for.
2 No. You don't get it as God viewed it not in your best interest. Garth Brooks sings a good song about unanswered prayers being the best gifts from God
3 NOT YET. You need to let go of your need for a quick turnaround.IIt will happen if it is supposed to happen when the time is right. Have faith in that.
I am glad you are looking into the mindset of a WAS/MLCer. That will help you be understanding and react with empathy instead of a place of hurt.
Many have told you to stop focusing on timeline and deadlines etc. I understand you are hurtling towards D and you feel helpless. 10% of people who divorce remarry again later. That figure seems high to me but it is quoted around the net. So D does not mean the end.
Earlier on in my situation there were many times I was convinced this was it. I was sure that the end was imminent. Each time I realise I gave power to those feelings by feeding them. They crippled me. A year ago I had my last R talk with W, it was verbalised that she had checked out. I was unsure how to behave with her but I decided to carry on doing what I was doing. So I rolled over, kissed her goodnight and basically did not let my feelings dictate my actions. It is more complicated than that but a powerful lesson is to work towards not acting on feelings. Don't ignore feelings but don't let them decide you actions.
I again urge you to embrace the life you can have without W. Get excited about it. This will be good for you but also will do no harm for W to see you moving forward.
You do not stink at DB. It is hard and no one is perfect at it. I truly see hope in your situation. I cannot tell you the timeframe though. Best to not focus on that and concentrate on YOU.
Best wishes
Roist,
Yes, you are right to keep reminding me of these things.
1. Yes, I am becoming a better man...whether or not I ever reconcile with my W...this is a gift...
2. Yes, I haven't gotten a yes to my prayers, but need to see that no or not yet...is also a gift...
3. Yes, reading more about MLC...including some of the books from the MLC recommended reading thread, very eye opening...I saw my W in one example where this happy, well-adjusted SAHM starts a sexual relationship with one of her son's 17 year old friends while he was on vacation with the family...at least my W has her sights set on someone above the drinking age!
4. Yes, I feel helpless...my wife is driving the bus...I've been a passenger and now I'm getting kicked off! My DB coach threw out that 10% number as well and I was surprised to hear that...I know it's up to the LBS to decide when it's over for them...
Curious to know: do most folks here throw in the towel at D or try to keep standing and waiting out the MLC?
5. "Earlier on in my situation there were many times I was convinced this was it. I was sure that the end was imminent. Each time I realise I gave power to those feelings by feeding them. They crippled me. A year ago I had my last R talk with W, it was verbalised that she had checked out. I was unsure how to behave with her but I decided to carry on doing what I was doing. So I rolled over, kissed her goodnight and basically did not let my feelings dictate my actions. It is more complicated than that but a powerful lesson is to work towards not acting on feelings. Don't ignore feelings but don't let them decide you actions."
Wow--this is amazing and inspiring. I need to get to this place. Most days, I still let my feelings dictate my actions, but am trying to be more conscious of what is happening and changing the dynamic.
6. Yes, I do need to get excited about the next phase of my life and concentrate on me...without my W...which while it is not my choice, it is my reality! I can't deny that any longer.
So one of the things I have learned in this MLC community is that my W's inconsistent behavior/words are to be expected...I was thinking I was the one going crazy. So here's something that's been on my mind. My W feels like she needs to keep telling me why we are getting D (I don't initiate these discussions), but maybe she's just trying to convince herself There are at least four versions of the story, depending upon her mood:
1. You are the best husband and father and friend I could ever have. This is not about you or anything that you have done or not done. This is about me and needing to be free. It's not your fault. I love you.
2. We drifted apart. There were no major issues in our relationship. We had a lot of kids. We got busy. We didn't prioritize our relationship. It's no one's fault.
3. [Turn up the volume.] You didn't listen to me. You didn't understand me. You didn't support me. You talked down to me. You used me. You cared more about the kids than you cared about me. It's all your fault.
4. The POM makes me feel alive. If I hadn't met him, then I wouldn't be asking for a D. I may be making the stupidest mistake of my life, but I can't live with myself asking "What if? What if?" You don't meet all of my needs. He won't meet all of my needs. I need both of you in my life. We'll all be friends.
At the beginning, I'd get all emotional and try to beg/argue/defend myself. Now, I just listen and do my best to bite my tongue--really, really hard to do. Is that the right approach?
What is the right MLC strategy to avoid being Plan B?
I know dating is one strategy, but don't think that would be right for me.
Gord, I don't have the answer to the Plan B question...I would assume that if we continue to allow them to cake eat, then they would always see us as a push over. I would imagine that once they see that you are moving on to work on yourself and grow on your own, then they might realize that you are not going to be there as a plan B in the future.
As for the dating thing??? I cannot see myself doing that right now either. I know that is something that she is wanting to get on with, but I know I am not ready for that. They checked out a long time prior to BD...we are still processing things. I don't know how long that will take, but I am sure we will be made aware when it hits.
I am not a religious man, but I think you are being too focused on your prayers being unanswered. My understanding of it is God has basically three responses each of which is for your own best interest.
1 Yes. Prayer is answered and you get what you asked for.
2 No. You don't get it as God viewed it not in your best interest. Garth Brooks sings a good song about unanswered prayers being the best gifts from God
3 NOT YET. You need to let go of your need for a quick turnaround.IIt will happen if it is supposed to happen when the time is right. Have faith in that.
roist...I agree with some of what you said, but I have found 5 ways that He answers prayers.
1. No, I love you too much to answer that.
2. Yes, but you'll have to wait. You should pray and he will answer in his timing. "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be open to you". Matthew 7:7
3. Yes, but not what you expected. Pray and he will answer you, but it may be in a different manner than what you asked. "Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make your path straight". Proverbs 3:5-6
4. Yes, and here's more. Pray and he will answer you in a greater manner than you could ever have imagined. "For I know the plans I have for you, declares the lord, plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future". Jeramiah 29:11
5. Yes, I thought you'd never ask. Many prayers go unanswered because they have never been asked. "Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective". James 5:16
Not arguing with anyone about it, but sometimes we have to walk by faith and not by sight...I don't understand exactly what my W is going thru, but if I keep my eyes on the Lord and continue to grow in my faith, then I have the faith that all things will fall into place.
I'm not saying that there won't be days of anger and frustration, but it is how we get thru that that matters. It helps me to pray for peace, strength and patience throughout this trial.
I am also trying to continue to learn and understand more on the MLC/WAW issues, but will we ever really understand exactly what they are going thru?
Gordie--
I got a few different versions as well. You're the best husband and I love you. I always wanted out of this marriage. You're controlling, I hate you and I can't trust you. My infatuation makes me feel like I've bit hit by a truck and I want to feel that forever. My infatuation may have been a fantasy, I'm getting over it but not entirely.
I have no wisdom for you. Just sympathy.
Thanks for your sympathy and glad to know I'm not the crazy one. I'm always surprised how often your W and my W read from the same, gosh darn ugly script. Sigh.
I got a few different versions as well. You're the best husband and I love you. I always wanted out of this marriage. You're controlling, I hate you and I can't trust you. My infatuation makes me feel like I've bit hit by a truck and I want to feel that forever. My infatuation may have been a fantasy, I'm getting over it but not entirely.
Pretty much the same script for us all right?
I got the "you're a great husband and a great father and I love you, but I need more passion". During our MC I heard that I was controlling and that I told her how she should feel about things. She never said that she hated me, but did say that she could never be with me again.
All say pretty much the same thing...it is batchitcrazy!!!
"I would imagine that once they see that you are moving on to work on yourself and grow on your own, then they might realize that you are not going to be there as a plan B in the future."
Yes, that's what I'm hoping for and one positive about moving out...
"I have found 5 ways that He answers prayers."
I love your list of five...awesome!
"...if I keep my eyes on the Lord and continue to grow in my faith, then I have the faith that all things will fall into place."
Yes, indeed...and accepting that "fall into place" may look very differently than what we hope/expect.
"I am also trying to continue to learn and understand more on the MLC/WAW issues, but will we ever really understand exactly what they are going thru?"
No, probably not. I too am trying to learn and be more empathetic to my W's plight. I know she is in pain and I want to be/should be compassionate. I think it's hard because of (a) guilt that I am one of the causes of her pain and can't fix the problem, (b) anger that she has given up on the M, wants POM, and is willing to breakup of our family, and (c) sadness/grief that I am losing my best friend/wife/mother to my children/lover/life partner...and the dreams/hopes/expectations of what my life would be like...
The silver lining in your impending separation is, Gordie, that your W will run into the arms of the 22 year old employee POM with gooey eyes ... and run smack into Reality.
I really believe that.
The silver lining in your impending separation is, Gordie, that your W will run into the arms of the 22 year old employee POM with gooey eyes ... and run smack into Reality.
I really believe that.
FG, I like your thinking. I actually do want my W to be happy and successful and all the things she wants...emotionally self sufficient, financially independent, free to choose who she wants to love. I don't want my W to abandon me and the children and run into the arms of POM, fail in her business and go bankrupt.
Being the fixer type, I want to stop her from making what I see as bad choices and the consequences of them...but this time I can't, I won't. That's part of the reason why I won't blow up the POM at this stage. My W has actully hinted that if I do that it is yet another example of me controlling her...and isn't she right?
So, I now need to focus on fixing me. I have a lot of work to do. I'm interviewing for new jobs. I started engaging in my music and art again, parts of myself that have been neglected during my M. I'm becoming a better father. One thing I've worked on this week: apologizing to my kids when I've done something I regret (being impatient, using too strong of a voice, etc). This is a 180 for me and it's been a great change. They really stop and take note when Dad says he's sorry and asks for forgiveness.
The silver lining in your impending separation is, Gordie, that your W will run into the arms of the 22 year old employee POM with gooey eyes ... and run smack into Reality.
I really believe that.
That is priceless...more than likely the truth, but very funny.
Read yesterday that the temptation of sin is the promise of something much better, but the result is true emptiness.
SBJ/ForGump,
Thanks for the positive thoughts. It's interesting to hear your perspective being emotionally detached from it. Heck, we could pass each other on the street and we wouldn't even know each other!
***
On an unrelated note. I've been trying to be a better third-party observer of my R with my W. So one thing that has happened over these past few months is a change in our physical relationship which I have posted about here a lot, but something that I've recently come to realize and not yet discussed is that she acts very differently in public than at home. I'm working hard to NOT mind read, but just notice the actions.
1. In public, I have cooties. She consistently keeps her distance. Even in social situations, where our friends don't know what is going on, she'll keep at least a foot away from me.
2. In private, she's all over the place. Some days I have cooties; other days she can't keep her hands off me (both sexually and non sexually).
In public and private, I have let her take the initiative in our physical interactions. I don't initiate anything, not even physical greetings any more. Is that the right approach?
That's part of the reason why I won't blow up the POM at this stage. My W has actully hinted that if I do that it is yet another example of me controlling her...and isn't she right?
I think she would be right ... if it was real. If it was real, then it would be you trying to control her right to choose. But if a person is having a delusional episode -- what psychologists call "dissociation" -- then it's about mental health. You wouldn't be saying, "you must choose X over Y." You're saying, "you believe X, but it's actually Y."
That's the way I saw it with my wife. I wasn't trying to tell her, You have no right to choose. I told her, What you think is a relationship is actually a delusion.
Anyway, Gordie, I think just by explaining my logic here, I might be over-emphasizing the importance of this issue. In my personal situation, it was a catalyst, a match that lit the fire. But the fuel was already there, and if it wasn't for that match, something else was likely to have lit the fire. So the delusion is a part of the picture, an important one, but not everything either.
So looking for some advice. So my W and I are working our way through our D settlement and an issue has come up that I haven't thought about: holidays.
My W's mindset is that we will still have lots of family time together post-D...family dinners, birthdays together, holidays together, vacations, etc. She says D doesn't mean the end of our family (silly Gordie)...and she says it with all sincerity like she really means it...what is going on?
Is this fantasy? cake eating? How should I be thinking about this/responding? As of now, I told my W I need more time to think about it...and suspect she'll ask me about it again this weekend...
Holidays. Things I used to love and now dread! I can tell you what we did. We named the "major" holidays in our agreement and have named specific details about them. Christmas Eve/Day we split the day each year, same with Easter. Thanksgiving and New Years we take turns having the kids, so I'll have them for those holidays every other year. The "minor" holidays and school breaks we didn't include in the agreement, mostly to allow more flexibility for the kids as they get older. The stipulation reads that we will decide between ourselves how we want to handle them. If either of us really pitches a fit we can always go to family court, which neither of us wants to it behooves us to remain amicable. We each have them for one full interrupted week in the summer.
I think what works for one family might not necessarily work for the next. My H seems to think we'll all be one big happy family for birthdays as well. I don't see that happening, but I've got 6 months until my daughter's birthday so plenty of time to see what things look like then.
Now what she means by this - your guess is as good as mine! H thinks that we'll all still go to church together on Christmas Eve. What? With his GF in tow? I think that must just be another aspect of their warped perception of reality.
Gord & Karen...not sure if this is all part of the script that I haven't heard yet, but mine said that families don't get destroyed during divorce, they just get restructured. She is under the same delusion that we will be one big happy restructured family. The only difference is that she will be able to possibly find her passion with someone else. That is total MLCBS...to me anyway.
Well, my H claims to realize that he has destroyed my life and the girls' lives (his word). However, that fact doesn't have any power over the fact that he "needs to live his truth" (thanks, quack therapist for that phrase). I think he says the word but has yet to fully comprehend the meaning. Perhaps when there isn't a happy restructured family in place they start to see reality?
Apparently there is a scene in the move Couples Retreat where one of the characters is going on about "his truth". I'd laugh at the absurdity if it wasn't wreaking so much damage in our lives. I might have to rent it though.
G--
My MLC-W has/had a similar view. My personal opinion is that it is a mix of hope, goodwill, fantasy and cake-eating. It all springs from a positive view of who you are as a partner and a Dad. But there is a strong fantasy and cake eating component. She gets to avoid feeling guilty for blowing up the family if she can believe that the impact on the family is minimized.
Sure, it can happen that way, where all the holidays happen as before. But who knows? If your W is deeply in love with some OM, can you guarantee that you will be OK with being w/ her on all the holidays? What if you fall in love with someone new? Can your W guarantee that she'll be OK w/ that? What if you and your new partner create a blended family, with its own holiday traditions? Do you want to be handcuffed, at that point, to your *previous* family's traditions, even though your W is long gone as a wife and a lover?
That's just how I thought of it, Gordie. As much as I'd like to keep my family's holidays intact ... when my W divorces me, that breaks up our mutual commitment to be there for each other. It just seems contradictory to say "I hereby break my commitment to be there with you and for you 100% all of the time," but at the same time say, "but I expect you to guarantee that our holidays will be exactly the same."
My approach has been to say we will try to do the holidays together as long as we can agree, but to lay out a plan to alternate parenting 50-50 for all the holidays as something we fall back onto, in case we can no longer agree. That way, we can hope for the best, but each of us can be assured that in the worst case the holidays are split equitably.
My state has a nicely designed worksheet you can fill out that addresses all of the major holidays and school breaks. I found it to be very useful.
HTH.
KarenHC...yes, how to turn holidays from wonder...to dread, so sad. And yes, my W and I still take the kids to church together most Sundays...I've resisted asking if she's expecting that to continue to...I guess I'm playing it by ear. My W hasn't used the my truth language...she prefers following her heart...absurd? yes, his is absurd...
SBJ...restructured? no, I haven't heard that one...but an ongoing, happy family? yes, W says we don't have to be like other unhappy, D families, that we can do this differently...and that we will all be happier...yippee...MLCBS...we have to add that to the abbreviations!
ForGump...yes, I think our Ws caught the same fantasy/infection...wish I knew the cure...I like your approach:
"...we will try to do the holidays together as long as we can agree, but to lay out a plan to alternate parenting 50-50 for all the holidays as something we fall back onto, in case we can no longer agree. That way, we can hope for the best, but each of us can be assured that in the worst case the holidays are split equitably."
My boundary? The one thing I have said is I'm not doing family celebrations, holidays and vacations with W and POM...that if POM is there, then I won't want to be there...and you know what my W said? I'll really like him once I get to know him...barf!
Being the fixer type, I want to stop her from making what I see as bad choices and the consequences of them...but this time I can't, I won't.
This is interesting to me. You say these are "bad choices". Objectively, Im having a hard time following you. If shes being offered $10 or $20 and she chooses $10, then fine, I agree. Thats a bad choice.
But in this case, is choosing divorce a "bad choice"? Im not necessarily sure thats an answerable question.
Im not sure how valuable it is to make that distinction. But sometimes when got in a rut or started feeling down, I would do what the book says and start from a beginner's mind. If you change your perspective so that it's just "a choice", then how do things look.
My W's mindset is that we will still have lots of family time together post-D...family dinners, birthdays together, holidays together, vacations, etc. She says D doesn't mean the end of our family (silly Gordie)...and she says it with all sincerity like she really means it...what is going on?
Is this fantasy? cake eating? How should I be thinking about this/responding? As of now, I told my W I need more time to think about it...and suspect she'll ask me about it again this weekend...
My opinion is that you should have a list of holidays and who gets what. Then if the "controlling" parent wants to offer the other parent the time, then so be it.
In my case, we have New Years Eve/Day, Easter, Memorial Day, 4th July, Labor Day, Thanksgiving, Christmas, and Halloween as 'holidays'. We switch off year to year. Birthdays and other events are just 'luck of the calendar'.
Yes...choices..."bad" choices is a judgment...I guess if I'm honest, I still do judge and think it's bad to break up your family to pursue one of your friend's children who is 20 years your junior and is nearly the same age as our oldest...still haven't let that judgment go...sigh.
What?! You'll like him once you get to know him?! Are you kidding me?!
Incredulous is the perfect word to describe my feelings for MLCBS. Ugh.
I'll really like him once I get to know him...
How about replying,
You know what honey, I think you're right. I'm sure I will really like him once I get to know him. Probably just as much as you will like my new girlfriend <insert name of one of your friends daughters> once you get to know her.
"My boundary? The one thing I have said is I'm not doing family celebrations, holidays and vacations with W and POM...that if POM is there, then I won't want to be there...and you know what my W said? I'll really like him once I get to know him...barf!"
Yeuch - I would let her know - W, I have no desire to be in the company of the man who helped break up our marriage...
She's probably hoping you'll be cool with everything (assuage her guilt) and you guys will all go on friendly camping trips together over the summer...
