Here's a link to the previous thread:
A Voyage Into The MLCer Mind Answering Questions from the Wonkaland Class
Busting: You ask a very good follow-up question.
In follow-up, if I may, have you tried or thought about explaining MLC to Ms Wonka?Absolutely. I have given this some quite bit of thought. How the heck do you explain MLC to a non-DBer? Also wouldn't that negate the pain I've caused to Ms. Wonka? I would not want to come off as "excusing" my behaviors and blame it on MLC as in passing the buck elsewhere. This is something I struggle with as I do want to own and take responsibility for causing her untold pain with my MLC behaviors. How the heck do I go about it? Each person has his/her story. I have my story and Ms. Wonka most certainly has her story. Doesn't mean that I am right or she's right. It is our experience that colors our views. A tricky path to navigate indeed. I am vacillating back and forth on writing a letter to Ms. Wonka and then changing my mind telling myself "what's the friggin' point! What's done has been done."
Heather: Yup. Go ahead and perpetuate the MLC stereotype all you want! Those things do actually happen all over the world.
Yeah, Wonkity, howz come you weren't T'Ode with me?Uh. Call me Ms. Royal Denseness...not sure what you're referring to, Heather. I'm not clear on what you're asking here.
Job: I'd like to ask you a question.
Why did my response "We'll see" strike a nerve w/you? Others had posted about the possibility of you and Mrs. Wonka reconnecting...but it appears that my response was the only one to send you in a "heated" tail spin. Why? In an indirect way, you exposed a very deep-seated fear that I've stuffed and shoved deep inside me for a long, long time.
Sometimes the most subtle comment(s) serves its purpose quite well like a well-placed quiver piercing at the bull's eye at some distant target. The particular fear which is that I would re-experience the pain of having my heart ripped out once again by Ms. Wonka should I ever open my heart to her again. As you know, the pain was immense and I swore to myself that I would never allow to put myself in that position ever again. There's a pretty big scar that has made its mark on my heart--permanently. As you know, it is the most hurtful thing a person can go through: having your heart smashed in a million pieces by the person you love and trust the most. In a nutshell, that fear just reared its ugly head and I was frightened by it. I recognized it for what it truly was and talked myself through it by sitting on the fear sofa.
Wonka,
I'm very sorry that my response sent you into a tail spin, as it was not intended to do so. I do hope that you are feeling much better now.
Job,
I am glad you made the comment for it forced me to examine the fear up close that Saturday night. I'm over it now and I am comfortable with what I've learned in that particular process. No need to apologize for you are not responsible for how people react. We all learn from each other and I posted because this is what it looks like for a former MLCer to experience years, years after the event.
Wonka, I think that's part of it, don't you? Facing those fears? I would guess that's one of the benefits of telling your story, albeit not always a fun and carefree benefit
I admire that you have that courage to face your past, and to share it with others. If anything, that shows a great deal of courage and growth.
I don't know that real healing can be accomplished without that experience. Even if we think we don't need it
And I will tell you that I have benefited greatly from your sharing and thoughts. In ways I wouldn't have thought I needed.
Peace,
AJ
Well, myself and a some others all were hopelessly romantic and suggesting you and Ms. Wonka get it on. But, you only got uptight, or so it seemed, about Job's post. But, I think you answered above.
Thanks for sharing Wonka. It helps to hear the "MLC-er" talk about the pain THEY feel in all of this. I appreciate you going there. It reminds me that Smokey isn't the robot he tries to pretend to be.
Can Heather and Job help me out here? I wanted to bring over your comments about "time slowing down" here. Went through some threads and cannot find it for some reason. Whose thread was it that the "time stands still" subject was briefly discussed?
Thanks! xo
I may have been one of the ones that spoke of time standing still for the mlcers recently...but many of us spoke of it many years ago. M Go Blue and several us had discussions about this way back when.
Let me think about the thread title for a bit.
I think it was in the past two days...that comment you made, "Wonka may not agree, ......" Ya know what I'm talking about here, Job?
Let me think on it. I post to so many...but I do remember the comment.
Is this it? If so, I posted it on your thread on February 7th.
"Heather,
It's true that they think that we are right where they left us. Time is very slow for them and even still, so when they come out of it, the children have gotten older, the pets are older or have gone on to pet heaven and we aren't the same any longer. They tend to be like Rip Van Winkle's waking from a very long nap.
Wonka may not agree, but that's what I've been told by several who have come out the other side."
Yep! That's the one I was looking for, Job. Thanks. In my own thread? WTH!! Must be one of those senior moments I experience from time to time.
The sense of time standing still happened to me to a certain extent. I recall one day coming home from work, Ms. Wonka was babysitting our young nephew (who was aged 6 or 7 at that time), and I nearly did a double-take on how much the nephew had grown. A part of my mind still thought of him as a 3-year old boy. Mind you, Ms. Wonka and her sister lived close-by so we frequently saw our nephew and niece. I have been present at their births and 'saw' them grow up before me since they were babies. Maybe the film froze for a while for me while I was in MLC.
To a point, time does seem to slow down for the MLCer. Not sure why. Probably the fog that surrounds us slows down the time/space continuum for us. Dunno.
Writing A Letter
I am now in the process of writing an apology/making amends letter to Ms. Wonka. The past two days, I have been feeling really unsettled and want to break free of it.
Job & Bea, isn't this what you would consider a good "making amends" letter, as the first step, to the spouse from a former MLCer?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dear Ms. Wonka,
Before I begin this message, I do want to tell you that I enjoyed your birthday card. It was a very thoughtful gesture and I really do appreciate it. Also our fun-filled text exchanges are so positive and plain fun!
First of all, I want you to know that I come to you with respectful intentions and struggled with finding the right balance in reaching out to you while respecting your space and life.
I owe you an apology and do want to make sincere amends for the pain I have caused you in the last year or two of our relationship. Both of us have experienced tremendous pain, sorrow, and heartbreak as we parted ways. Please let me know how I can make amends with you. I am open to ideas and feedback. As you may agree, I would like for both of us to heal in meaningful ways. Please know that I am uncertain how to go about this and may make a few mistakes along the way.
So I thought I’d take the first step here in reaching out to you. It is my hope that you are receptive to allowing the healing process begin anew between us and grant us the space to do so at our own pace in a mutually supportive way. This isn't easy at all for me and I can only imagine you may be surprised at this communication.
I am here if you wish to participate in this healing process.
Take care and be well.
Wonka
Wonka - I like the letter. I salute you for your courage in doing this, I can only imagine how much it takes
Personally I wouldn't want the line about how hard it is for you to do this. She either gets that or doesn't: this isn't really about you, but in the AA tradition, it is recognising the hurt that your behaviour caused to someone you cared for a lot.
Wonka,
This is the first step in the healing process. I like the letter and I do agree w/Bea, remove the sentence about how difficult this is for you. It's not necessary.
I do hope that she's at a place in her life whereby she'll accept the letter and work w/you in the healing process.
Sending positive vibes your way.
Bea & Job,Thanks for the feedback. Made the change as suggested.
Everyone,I plan to send this letter a bit after Valentine's Day as I do not want to intrude in Ms. Wonka's space before the "holiday" as I want to be respectful of her and not have her feel whatever emotions she may feel should she receive the letter before HVD.
Although I do admit that there's a big part of me that wants to throw a monkey wrench in Ms. Wonka's "romantic" day with the OW.
But I won't. Taking the high road here.
I think you are very wise to wait until after VD. Taking the high road will pay off no matter what the circumstances are.
Hallo my sexy Wonka! I'm here too, following along with your insightful journey, of which my favorite part is where you called AJ a bald old man. Wha, what? Yup you did. I caught ya!
I'm still in the thick of it. Incredibly happy with where I am, but there is a lot to deal with. Above all is this incredibly mature, fun loving man who is head over hills crazy about me. That is a lot to deal with, and also makes posting and reading here a bit difficult. I don't like to be reminded of things he has done.
I do need to keep posting. It was the positive stories that kept me going and the positive people who kept me strong. I'll admit, it feels like I'm bragging and bringing the party to the funeral with tales of reincarnation. And sometimes it's all I can do to just send uR a fb message to get the reassurance and understanding from one of the few in my life who actually gets it.
H is opening up big time. Fascinating stuff to everyone here I'm sure. I will post soon.
Okay I'm freaking interested in the mrs Wonka exchange and also about your Mama Cass. Also curious about the fleeting thoughts to send that letter BEFORE valentines. Hmmmm!!!! Interesting...
Raine,
..of which my favorite part is where you called AJ a bald old man. Wha, what? Yup you did. I caught ya!
Nope. I didn't. Nice try.
Hi Wonka- how are you?
I like the letter you are drafting so very much to Ms. What prompted you to do it. If I can ask?
Also I have been thinking a lot about what you said about not telling her about your MLC in fear of it being an 'excuse' (have i paraphrased correctly?).
Im thinking that if and when things between you both start opening up a bit more, as trust is built and communication grows, that it would be part of the healing to tell her. Not as an excuse for your behaviours. I understand you own those and you accept that now. I mean as it was a very monumental part of your life's journey and it shouldn't be ignored. Maybe she would understand more and it would help her heal too. We read about about MLC/depression etx so that we CAN understand and heal. I know you said she is not a DBer but none of us were before either....
I don't know if that makes sense. Still trying to get my thoughts more clear on this .
Wonka, I think that's part of it, don't you? Facing those fears? I would guess that's one of the benefits of telling your story, albeit not always a fun and carefree benefit
You are quite right, AJ. And I've faced this other fear of calling you "old" and "bald" so there you have it!
Ya satisfied, Raine?!
It is gratifying to see that you and others are benefiting from this thread in more ways than one. Heck, I am still learning as I trudge forward as well!
Heather,Smokey isn't a robot at all. That's for sure! Otherwise, why would he slink off far into the neverland and have no contact with you & the kids? That is something to ponder right there.
Busting,I'm doing good! Thanks for asking.
I like the letter you are drafting so very much to Ms. What prompted you to do it. If I can ask? Several factors drove this process. It all started way, way back in Bea's earlier threads when the discussion came up about making amends and the differences between a simple amend & a sincere amend. That really opened up my eyes as to how the LBS viewed the MLCer who has simply disappeared into the air leaving a ton of hurt in their wake. After asking some questions on Bea's thread on what would constitute a genuine effort in making sincere amends, people gave some feedback. I've mulled over it since then.
Another factor is that, pretty much on a weekly basis, Ms. Wonka pops into my dreams. Without any invitation...mind you! This has been a regular occurrence for over 10 years. I wake up disoriented and ask God, "Why, why do dreams about Ms. Wonka and her family still cross my dream state??! How come none of my other former GFs appeared in my dreams?? Why Ms. Wonka?? Can't these dreams stop already??"
The final factor is the timing aspect. Communications between Ms. Wonka and I are getting better with longer texts, stating my name in them, and the glacier is definitely thawing out. Also our two previous phone calls have aided in the opening up of the communication channel.
Given the totality of those factors, it makes sense to begin the healing process this year. I believe it was Heather who said "I don't care if it was 100 years later, if I got a letter like that, I'd feel validated." On top of the feedback, I've done a ton of inner work and looking at various stuff that crossed my space such as fears, my patterns, my perspective on certain issues, and influence from FOO dynamics.
I recognize that this cannot be done just by myself. Ms. Wonka will need to be a willing participant as well. That will be the key to all of this healing process. It'll need to be a conscious choice of her own free-will.
We'll see....(a nod to Job!)
Wonka
I was just catching up on your thread after having just read my horoscope, which I did not understand (you'll understand in a sec).
This may be a stretch....and could be nothing but mere coincidence.
FTR, I am a virgo, so if you are not one then maybe this is nothing really…or maybe…I was suppose to read your thread and post this. Hmmm…… (insert mystery music in the background)
Another factor is that, pretty much on a weekly basis, Ms. Wonka pops into my dreams. Without any invitation...mind you! This has been a regular occurrence for over 10 years. I wake up disoriented and ask God, "Why, why do dreams about Ms. Wonka and her family still cross my dream state??! How come none of my other former GFs appeared in my dreams?? Why Ms. Wonka?? Can't these dreams stop already??"
Okay…here is what I just read…
Virgo, Pay attention to your dreams tonight. Although you are a very practical, no-nonsense person who doesn’t always tune in to such things, you would be wise to keep a notepad by your desk to write down whatever messages come to you nocturnally. A problem or mystery has been on your mind, and where these has been confusion there will soon be clarity – if you pay attention to the message that the universe is sending you. You have been stressed over this issue, and so the cosmos is reaching out to you to guide you.
<insert some more mystery music in the background>
LOL…this may be nothing but it was pretty weird that I had just read this, logged on to the boards and just happen to open your thread.
In fairness, I believe you mentioned a red Ferrari in there somewhere too. I'm going to take my cane and head wax and wander away after this
I recognize that this cannot be done just by myself. Ms. Wonka will need to be a willing participant as well. That will be the key to all of this healing process. It'll need to be a conscious choice of her own free-will.
Hmm.. I have to think some more about that part. You have unfinished business with her; you didn't with the other GF's. That may be part of the reason for doing this now and why she is in your dreams and thoughts. I don't doubt she was and will remain a special person in your life whether she chooses to assist (I suspect she will) or not.
AJ
...Oh. I'll have to adjust the spectacles and bowtie if this darn head wax is going to work...
I'm a Virgo too. So is Smokey.
...Oh. I'll have to adjust the spectacles and bowtie if this darn head wax is going to work...
Damn, man. I always assumed you were quite debonair and handsome, but now you just got super, freaking hot. Pray tell, do you use the same wax on your Ferrari?
Don't mind me. I just have a difficult time coming to terms with the fact that I'm just too old for some men.
LOL Raine
Wonka, I just wanted to add something to the above. I do hope MsW is on board. I do. I just don't want you to stop walking this part of your journey if she isn't on board right now. Know what I mean?
Peace,
AJ
Wonka - I get the sense that you are doing this for you as well as 'for' MsW. So every outcome is good . . . . You are one grown up lady
JournalingPhew!
I have had to wrestle down Ms. Antsy Pantsy to the floor several times. She wanted to send the letter to Ms. Wonka asap. My rational, Spock-like mind had to talk sense into her and talk her out of it. On and on over the entire weekend. Even as I type this...Ms. Antsy Pantsy has this high-pitched, shrill voice that says, "Wonka...it has to HAPPEN now or the sky will fall!" going off inside my noggin.
That pesky little ego talking my ears off! Wish I could say "off with her head" like the Queen in
Alice in Wonderland.
My aim is to send the letter this Tuesday. And then we wait.
I do understand the antsy part of what's going on in your head. You want to get it out there and let her know what's on your mind...but it's wise to get through this holiday weekend and then send it. Tuesday will be here before you know it.
Wonka I still don't understand the rationale for sending MsW this letter? I read your explanation but will it truly heal you? What is the true goal or outcome you are seeking? Just playing devils advocate
Rick,
I am going to say this to you very softly and gently. Aren't those questions that you really want to ask yourself but afraid to do so out of fear? It seems to me that you are probably projecting them onto me as a way to avoid looking within. I've seen pain n your threads...and I sense that it is seeping into my thread.
Am I warm here, honey? ((Rick))
Lol you probably right. Its easier to just avoid the ex. Mine makes very easy since she doesn't communicate. TBH I wouldn't know what to say or how to react if I bumped in to her. Been thinking about that a lot. What would I do? In my family the tradition is to ignore someone who has hurt you. Not very mature huh? So hence my questions to you. I have some more growing up to do
Just hit the "send" button...apology letter sent to Ms. Wonka. Low expectations.
Whoa. Wonka sent it. "Hey!! Everybody!! Wonka sent the letter!!!!"
It's exciting in DB Town today. :-)
Sending positive thoughts today and I hope Mrs. Wonka will reply in a friendly and positive tone.
WHoaaaahhh... very excited for you Wonka!
Fingers crossed she replies back to you in a positive way & SOON. Our patience level has been pushed to the max, its time we all received good news much faster.... or at least enjoyed in someone elses good news.
Fingers crossed.
Magic
Wonka, thinking of you. Waiting for positive news
.
Answering Questions/Addressing Comments from Wonkaland ClassEric: Horoscopes...Virgo...Mystery Music in the Background. Sounds like a perfect sit-com show! Go ahead and write a screenplay.
Although you are a very practical, no-nonsense person who doesn’t always tune in to such things,Got this part right...fits a Cappy to a T!
you would be wise to keep a notepad by your desk to write down whatever messages come to you nocturnally. A problem or mystery has been on your mind, and where these has been confusion there will soon be clarity – if you pay attention to the message that the universe is sending you. WTH!? Ok. I'll give this a shot. The other night I had this dream where myself, Ms. Wonka and her sister were all naked with each person sitting in each other's lap with arms draped around each other's shoulders in a sequential order (me, Ms. Wonka on mine with her back to me, then SIL on Ms. Wonka). Now you tell me how the heck I am supposed to interpret and/or pay attention to the "message" in this particular dream. Another problem is I am unable to recall those dreams pretty much on a frequent basis...all I know is that Ms. Wonka popped in them when I wake up. And that drives me batty.
AJ: Did I scare you away with my "old, bald" comments? Don't be a stranger! I miss seeing your tartan bowtie around here.
You have unfinished business with her; you didn't with the other GF's. That may be part of the reason for doing this now and why she is in your dreams and thoughts. I don't doubt she was and will remain a special person in your life whether she chooses to assist (I suspect she will) or not. Doesn't a divorce fall into the realm of "unfinished" business when there's a WAS/LBs dynamic playing out? A part of me thinks 'why' this "unfinished" business is still lingering is largely due to our hearts being connected that transcends all pain, confusion, anger, sorrow, time and space. I could be close to the 'truth' or be dead wrong here.
I just don't want you to stop walking this part of your journey if she isn't on board right now. Know what I mean? Absolutely. It would be a real gift if Ms. Wonka elects to participate in the healing process. If not, I am okay with it. Either way, I am comfortable with who I am and how I've changed over the years to a more mellow person. Perhaps it is due to age...dunno.
Raine: Hiya...you dig bald men?? Who knew?
I just have a difficult time coming to terms with the fact that I'm just too old for some men.That makes the two of us.
Aw shoot, I've already eliminated half of the population as it is.
Bea, Heather, Job, Magic & Bright: Thank you for the good wishes along with your fingers, toes and hairs crossed on our behalf.
WTH!? Ok. I'll give this a shot. The other night I had this dream where myself, Ms. Wonka and her sister were all naked with each person sitting in each other's lap with arms draped around each other's shoulders in a sequential order (me, Ms. Wonka on mine with her back to me, then SIL on Ms. Wonka). Now you tell me how the heck I am supposed to interpret and/or pay attention to the "message" in this particular dream. Another problem is I am unable to recall those dreams pretty much on a frequent basis...all I know is that Ms. Wonka popped in them when I wake up. And that drives me batty.
Wonka, focus on the feelings you had during the dream? Were you embarrassed, excited, feel safe???
I think the order you were sitting is interesting. You were the base and you were all naked so vulnerable?? Did you feel uncomfortable or vulnerable? Or, did you feel safe and loved?
Do you remember if there was any reason behind sitting like that?
Ms. Wonka was naked but not a vulnerable as she would be if she had been facing you. Her back seems to say that you sense she still has some defenses up AND someone else is sitting on HER lap. She is on YOUR lap, but someone else is sitting on hers. And, you are holding the weight of them both. You are carrying Ms. W and another person on your person and you are completely vulnerable without having your back to them. You are exposed.
The SIL could really represent Ms. W's wife/GF or some significant other that's not you but someone SHE sees as family.
Heather,
I am going to set you straight here. I did not feel a thing during the dream at all. It was as if I was watching something on a movie screen from some far away place that only rolled for approximately 30 seconds. Kinda like swimming through molasses.
You are free to analyze this weird, weird dream all you want. To me, it is one of those things I am able to recall only very, very briefly. A lot of the times, I don't remember them at all. In that particular dream, it was DEFINITELY Ms. Wonka's sister sitting in her lap. Nothing to do with GF or whatnot. Ms. Wonka and her sister are very, very close. In my dreams, almost both of them appear in them. It goes to show you how strong their sisterly bond is despite being 6 years apart.
I like my version better :-)
Jeez, amateurs.
Heather,
I'm happy to be an amateur!!
Everyone,
Ms. Wonka responded late tonight and I am disappointed with the response for the following reasons: 1) The word choices, style, and 'thought' process isn't Ms. Wonka at all 2) Which comes out as inauthentic to me 3) I suspect that the OW's Mom composed the letter 4) Ms. Wonka cannot be true to herself and have it come directly from her
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hi Wonka,
Apology accepted.
When you made the first contact several months ago, you broached this subject and we were able to discuss on the phone. You were also going through a difficult time with your dad, and I got the opportunity to support you and sharing our experience with our dads. This is what I understood in dealing with the situation as we move past it. Also and our ability to joke about football has been fun as well! This to me, is part of the healing process in respecting one another.
As you want to continue to heal, I totally support that. If you want to make specific amends, I am open to it and I also want to discuss few things with you as well.
Thanks,
MsWonka
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
I find it interesting that Ms. Wonka turned this convo around to be about "me" healing. Ummmm, Ms. Wonka got hurt as well. Isn't this interesting? It is her view and I cannot change it. I feel that I gave this my most sincere and genuine effort. Just disappointing to see the above response being written by someone else. I will continue onward in my own path and be the awesome Wonka with my hot girl, Cass!
Previously, when I received communications from Ms. Wonka that I know are NOT from her, I completely ignore them. When I do see Ms. Wonka communicating with me directly herself, I responded accordingly. I just don't like the fact that there's "someone" out there speaking for her. It rubs me the wrong way as being inauthentic and not being true to themselves.
I'm sorry the response wasn't what you had hoped for but....at least she responded and it doesn't sound negative at all. To me, it sounds "cautious". I think of the response as a first step towards your healing. Don't allow that response to slow you down. Continue as you have been. It takes time for people to heal and melt their hearts after being hurt. Always be yourself around Mrs. Wonka and stay positive.
Wonka
Sorry the response was not what you had hoped for. I agree with Job, to me the response did not come across as negative.
If you want to make specific amends, I am open to it and I also want to discuss few things with you as well.
I did not know your entire story but the last sentence in the above does appear to be a positive to me. "Ms. Wonka would like to discuss few things with you as well".
Isn't this some form of acknowledgment that the two of you should continue to communicate?
Job,
Yes, it is a positive response. Still sticks my caw that 'someone else' wrote it for Ms. Wonka. Does not show authenticity and genuineness. I can only imagine your reaction/feelings if someone else other than Mr. Rip van Winkle write his email to you...especially when attempting to make amends.
Eric,
This is an acknowledgement indeed. As for the comment about discussing a few things, I am pretty sure it is to tell me that Ms. Wonka married the OW. Which I already knew by back in September 2013. I am indifferent to this 'news.'
General,
Isn't it too hard nor unrealistic to be "real" and "authentic" in those communications? Ugh.
Specific amends...how on the earth do I go about it? I can imagine this: "Ms. Wonka, as for specific amends, ohhhh...that would take up about 5 years worth of chit to wade through. Oh that...chit means my own Midlife Crisis. Don't believe I went through it? Ah..that's ok. I am done."
Whatever.
I responded to Ms. Wonka very briefly by opening with the statement that I'm in a very good place in my life and that all's good. Then proceeded to ask what she wanted to discuss with me beside the fact that she's now married. Ended by wishin her a good week.
That's it.
Wonka,
Just wondering....
Why this
"by opening with the statement that I'm in a very good place in my life and that all's good."
and not just...
"thank you for your response. Then proceeded to ask what she wanted to discuss with me beside the fact that she's now married."
I am just wondering why you felt the need to say that you are in a good place and that life is all good.
Eric,
My wall is back up. I want to keep her at arm's length because I know Ms. Wonka did not compose the letter herself which is a total, major turn off for me. Wanted to disabuse her of the notion that I am sitting on my sofa crying in pain or whatever is going through her head about me. The truth is my life is good. Just the facts ma'am.
Your wall is back up. And from her perspective, I would feel like you asked, got hurt by the response, and are now "punishing" me to keep me at bay.
Here's the thing.
You asked her for that and began opening up. But your expectation of her was not what you received. She is not going to open up to that punishment again after all these years. Not easily and not at the pace you'd like. That gets in the way of reconciling.
One thing that stood out is that you wanted her to know you're not a snivelling, ice-cream eating mess on the couch waiting for the world to give you what you deserve. The other is that you honed in on her marriage (that came across as a snipe.)
Was it me? I'd look at it, shake my head and say, somethings never change.
I think the truth is, you have to be the one to be genuine, authentic, and humble with NO expectation of same in return. You'll have to lead the way because nobody else is going to.
If you don't, you'll carry this longer than you otherwise want to. So will she.
I see no reason to point out how good things are. I see no reason to portray yourself to her in any way other than authentically you. Especially if you expect same in return,
My suggestion (unasked for of course)? I suggest you re-evaluate before responding.
And I do think it's great she responded, although I can't see how it was somebody else that wrote it. Do you know her so well?
AJ
Wonka
it appears to me that Ms Wonka's response was mirroring your letter and attempted to mimic the tone. The styles are similar. your letter was very formal, as was Ms Wonka's, but in your case the formality feels more natural and polished, while hers seemed forced and not as well edited.
this could explain why you feel it was written by someone else.
also, you had a long time to compose and mull and edit, while she only a short time. I would guess her next response will be in her voice.
of course, this is said without knowing either of you personally.
Is that who you want to be?
That said, I can understand why the wall is up. If though you really want to heal - don't you need to keep it down?
How is Ms Wonka see the real you - with the wall up?
Oh...and it should not matter what she does or how she responds- not if Wonka is gonna be..Wonka.
AJ,
I am not punishing Ms. Wonka nor intending to at all. I am now in self-protection mode. Yes, my wall is back up. As for knowing how someone wrote it, I know for a fact based on Ms. Wonka's texts and emails with her word choice, thought process, etc. The above email response is not Ms. Wonka at all. It just does not come across as "real" from her.
Granted, I was mightily put off by having a ghost writer who saw my email which was of a deeply personal nature and a sensitive matter. Just not right. My disappointment and annoyance with this "third" party involvement really got my hackles raised big time. Hence my short response.
As for being authentic, I can say with absolute 100% certainty that I did not use a ghost writer to respond to Ms. Wonka. No other person should/has a place in this so-called healing process which should be strictly left to the two real parties: myself and Ms. Wonka. In a way, she broke my trust by having a ghost writer injected in the process.
That is my boundary.
As for the marriage thing, ummm...it has been over 5 to 6 months. Just come on right out with it. I do recognize that I am no longer #1 in Ms. Wonka's life and she has no obligation at all to tell me that she got married. Just think it would be a common courtesy to let me know. Again, I am indifferent to this marriage. No mushy chit from me.
Thank you, Ken & Eric. Please see ^^^ post/answers in response to your inquiries...it says it all for me.
I recently sent Ms. Wonka another email apologizing for my curt response, detailed why it it came that way, stated my disappointment, and informed her that my trust is broken. Laid out my boundary to her on having a third party getting involved in our communications.
I'm moving on from this topic. Sometime next week, I will post more information on my MLC journey.
Wonka,
Well, all I can say is this...you've shot yourself in the foot w/the last missive. Your expectation level should have been zero and just said thanks for responding back. Even if you "think" that someone else wrote that missive, you can't prove it even though the writing was different. If she is married, she has every right to advise her new companion that you've reached out to her and she may have asked for advice on how to respond to you. It's no longer about you and Mrs. Wonka because she's remarried and she may not want to keep secrets from her new companion.
Yes, you are hurt and disappointed and that's about how you feel. This was suppose to be about reaching out and making amends. Mrs. Wonka is now going to think that you've not healed and are still on the same path you were a while ago.
I'm very sorry that you've put the walls back up...take those walls down, feel the pain and allow it to wash over you and release it. Those walls have to come down in order for you to move forward and have another serious relationship in your life.
Lower your expectations about people, stay positive and hopefully by clearing the air, maybe, just maybe things will return to an even keel for you.
Wonka
I do not know your entire sitch so I may be off base here. Hell I may be more than off base and flat out wrong.
My initial reaction from today post was… “wow I think Wonka is hurt”. I understand if this is indeed the case. I just wonder….if your intent was to “heal” why are you so hurt and upset?
So I ask again…
Is this ^^^ who Wonka wants to be?
Granted, I was mightily put off by having a ghost writer who saw my email which was of a deeply personal nature and a sensitive matter.
I understand how you can feel this way. I would ask though…..1) you know Ms Wonka is married now so wouldn’t it be normal for her to share your thoughts with her significant other? I am not saying Ms Wonka was right in doing so, just can you see her POV? If you were remarried would you share what is going on with your significant other?
My disappointment and annoyance with this "third" party involvement really got my hackles raised big time.
Yes these are your feelings and you are entitled to have them. Do you see though that instead of processing them – you were just short with your response. Normally, you are quite thoughtful in your responses, especially here on the boards. You seem to give a lot of thought to your response and that comes across in the duration between your post. Yet with Ms Wonka, you were short and you seem to be responding quite rapidly, which leads me to think that your emotions right now are getting the best of you. The bigger question is WHY?
Just come on right out with it.
This comes across to me as Wonka wanting what Wonka wants – not what Ms Wonka may want
right now. Is that because you are hurt? If so, is this who Wonka wants to be?
Is the root of the hurt because….
I am no longer #1 in Ms. Wonka's life
You have said that you are in self protection mode, that your wall is up. How then are you to have an open process with which to heal with or without Ms Wonka? I would think that in order to both heal, that some of the harder issues, like Ms Wonka sharing your message, would need to be dealt with. How can that happen if you are closed off?
I recently sent Ms. Wonka another email apologizing for my curt response, detailed why it it came that way, stated my disappointment, and informed her that my trust is broken.
And the purpose of the later part…trust being broken and all was for what? What are really trying to accomplish with it? Is it just YOUR boundary?
Personally, I think (and once again I could be wrong) that deep down inside you had some higher expectation. That deep down inside, this healing process has to happen in YOUR timeline.
Why not proceed slowly – why not give her the benefit of the doubt. Why not just let go of the fact that you
think someone else wrote the message?
I'm moving on from this topic.
Moving on….or running away?
Job,
Thank you for your perspective. I am not hurt at all. The main thing here is a third party read my letter...that is my major beef that resulted in disappointment because I cannot trust Ms. Wonka in keeping my confidences. I can understand that Ms. Wonka may have relayed to OW that she received communication from me which I am totally fine with here. If I shot my own foot with the latest email, I can live with it with my EYES wide open.
It is reasonable to assume that if a person (be it a relative, coworker, or friend) confided in you with this type of personal stuff, you don't break their trust by showing another person his/her email. Does this sound reasonable to most people, right?
I am not going to waver from this boundary. My most trusted friends know this and understand this. They have earned my trust and know how to keep it. It isn't too hard to understand at all. This is my personal value and boundary. Integrity. Pure and simple.
It is now up to Ms. Wonka to earn my trust again and she's gonna have to work hard at it.
I agree with eric, my reaction was the same, that Wonka got hurt.
Wonka, I think you expected Ms. Wonka to feel the same need for healing as you do. It might not be the case. She might not need it and this is why her response sounds not authentic to you.
I can relate with my first exH. My first X cheated on me and hurt me deeply. I kicked him out. He tried to come back, but I moved on with my life. A few years later, when I was happily married to my second H and he was married for 3rd time, he was trying to establish some communication with me and be friends. I accepted it at a time. I didn’t need any apologies, any amends, I didn’t need healing, because I was already healed from that relationship and put it behind me. I did it in hopes that it would help my son to establish the communication with his father as well. I didn’t really care about talking to exH, or exchanging e-mails or anything. I didn’t bother sending cards or calling on his B-day. I just didn’t want him to be in my life as a friend, period.
Your story is different, because it seems that Ms. Wonka is open for communication. Still, she might not need the same kind of healing you do. Just my opinion.
I appreciate everyone here. Each and every one of you. You do genuinely hold my feet to the fire and I do see it as "real." Shoot...y'all save me tons of $$ in counseling fees.
Eric,
My initial reaction from today post was… “wow I think Wonka is hurt”. I understand if this is indeed the case. I just wonder….if your intent was to “heal” why are you so hurt and upset?I can see how you would view my response as being "hurt." It is not the case here. I feel a huge disappointment. Nothing to do with expectation. In fact, I was prepared for no response from Ms. Wonka. The disappointment stems from breaking confidences and showing someone my email. As I told Job, I have no problem with a spouse telling the SO that he/she received communication from an ex. The key issue here is having SOMEONE else write the response for you on a deeply personal communication that attempts to make amends and heal the other person. Makes me wonder "how does Ms. Wonka truly see this, what are her true thoughts IN HER OWN WORDS".
Quote:
No mushy chit from me.
Is this ^^^ who Wonka wants to be?I'm not wired this way. I am not good at being sentimental. Just so not me. It is separate from being sensitive and empathetic. Two whole different balls here.
1) you know Ms Wonka is married now so wouldn’t it be normal for her to share your thoughts with her significant other? I am not saying Ms Wonka was right in doing so, just can you see her POV? If you were remarried would you share what is going on with your significant other?Please refer to my earlier comments in regard to this.
Yes these are your feelings and you are entitled to have them. Do you see though that instead of processing them – you were just short with your response. Normally, you are quite thoughtful in your responses, especially here on the boards. You seem to give a lot of thought to your response and that comes across in the duration between your post. Yet with Ms Wonka, you were short and you seem to be responding quite rapidly, which leads me to think that your emotions right now are getting the best of you. The bigger question is WHY?When someone breaks a boundary, especially of a deeply personal nature, I come down very hard and do not mince my words. I just don't like having people f*cking around with me...especially on a sensitive/personal matter. If this comes across as harsh to them, I am okay with it. I have too much self-respect to be a people pleaser. As you probably can see by now, I am not a people pleaser by any stretch of the imagination. Generally, I am not too bothered by other people's views/opinions of me. This is self-assurance.
Quote:
Just come on right out with it.
This comes across to me as Wonka wanting what Wonka wants – not what Ms Wonka may want right now. Is that because you are hurt? If so, is this who Wonka wants to be?You may have a very valid point here. I do see what you're saying here. You could say my disappointment & annoyance spilled over into that area as well. Hurt? Nope. Just that I feel that Ms. Wonka doesn't have the balls to tell me this when I've heard from other people. Meh.
You have said that you are in self protection mode, that your wall is up. How then are you to have an open process with which to heal with or without Ms Wonka? I would think that in order to both heal, that some of the harder issues, like Ms Wonka sharing your message, would need to be dealt with. How can that happen if you are closed off?This comes with a condition: trust that my confidences will be honored in an authentic manner. I am not feeling it at all from Ms. Wonka. I am not willing to compromise my value and boundary in this regard with anyone.
And the purpose of the later part…trust being broken and all was for what? What are really trying to accomplish with it? Is it just YOUR boundary?Stating and enforcing my boundary. I am not trying to "accomplish" anything here. It is just my personal value and boundary. And that's okay if people have issues with this. They're clear on this and know what happens if they breech it.
Who wants friends who can break your trust nilly willy left and right?
Why not proceed slowly – why not give her the benefit of the doubt. Why not just let go of the fact that you think someone else wrote the message? How many times do I give someone the "benefit of the doubt" when they break your trust? That is the problem right there.
As for letting go of the fact that someone wrote the message, it is not as simple as that for the all of the above ^^^ values I've laid out here. Just rubs me the wrong way.
Friends just don't break your confidences.
Bright,
Thank you for your thoughts. I can see how you would view your XH.
Your story is different, because it seems that Ms. Wonka is open for communication. Still, she might not need the same kind of healing you do. Just my opinion.
If not, then why bother telling me that she never got "closure" from me with pain etched in her eyes. I thought I'd go this to give her that closure and heal in her own fashion. If she isn't interested, then I'd be happy to walk along on my own path.
I've done a lot of healing myself over the past 10 years. I just feel really bad for my MLC antics that impacted her and am trying to make things right. If she isn't interested nor wants that, it's perfectly okay with me. This doesn't change who I've become and how I relate to people these days.
I don't have any advice or thoughts to offer you Wonka....I'm glad, for you, that your wrote the letter and, in her way, that she was able to answer you. It's a step to, what I hope, is a healing place for you both
Wonka,
Thank you for responding.
It has been 9 years (give or take) since you and Ms Wonka spent significant time together – right?
If so, then did she understand your boundary? Maybe she forgot? Maybe she changed?
As you probably can see by now, I am not a people pleaser
Understood.
Could you maybe have been a bit more….”empathetic”?
Self assurance can sometimes come across as arrogant. I’m not calling you arrogant – I’m only saying that if you look at how your responses have been that many of the people looking in from the outside – see something a little different.
Nope. Just that I feel that Ms. Wonka doesn't have the balls to tell me this when I've heard from other people.
Can you respect that maybe that is just how she feels more at peace?
This comes with a condition: trust that my confidences will be honored in an authentic manner.
Did she know this? Did you even give Mr Wonka enough TIME to learn this about YOU?
Who wants friends who can break your trust nilly willy left and right?
I agree that personal boundaries are very important. I just think that if we do not communicate them…how are people suppose to know. It almost like we are setting them up to fail, which leads me to my next question. Deep down inside did you really want this to fail?
Friends just don't break your confidences.
Agreed – but maybe Ms Wonka was WORKING towards becoming YOUR friend – so maybe she wasn’t there yet. Consider this…..Ms Wonka is suppose to respect YOUR boundaries – yet – you seem to be stepping over hers by bringing up the marriage? Maybe Ms Wonka had a boundary that she did not want her M discussed. Guess what – you didn’t know though…so it would be impossible for you to know that you were not suppose to bring it up.
Friendships take time….the take communication….the take trust. I know you know this. Can you really say that this was your best attempt? If you can, then be at peace.
Eric,
You are correct that Ms. Wonka moved out in 2004 so it has been 9 years since then.
If so, then did she understand your boundary? Maybe she forgot? Maybe she changed?
I don't think so. In the 10 years we were together, Ms. Wonka has heard and seen me in action in regard to this type of boundary. I cannot imagine why she would think otherwise given my consistent actions in this regard.
Could you maybe have been a bit more….”empathetic”?
You can be empathetic while not being a people pleaser at the same time. See the difference?
Self assurance can sometimes come across as arrogant. I’m not calling you arrogant – I’m only saying that if you look at how your responses have been that many of the people looking in from the outside – see something a little different.
This is a good way of looking at this. Thanks.
Can you respect that maybe that is just how she feels more at peace?
I do sincerely hope Ms. Wonka is at peace. That's what we all want for our friends and loved ones.
Quote:
This comes with a condition: trust that my confidences will be honored in an authentic manner.
Did she know this? Did you even give Mr Wonka enough TIME to learn this about YOU?
See above. My actions on this topic have been consistent..by actions, verbally, and interactions.
I agree that personal boundaries are very important. I just think that if we do not communicate them…how are people suppose to know. It almost like we are setting them up to fail, which leads me to my next question. Deep down inside did you really want this to fail?
Not really. I think it was important to restate this and reinforce it as a reminder. Communicating your boundaries from time to time helps clarify your position. This can be done in different ways. Through example, verbally, or facial expression. In my view, when boundaries are clearly understood, then communication follows. Seems to be logical to me.
Agreed – but maybe Ms Wonka was WORKING towards becoming YOUR friend – so maybe she wasn’t there yet. Consider this…..Ms Wonka is suppose to respect YOUR boundaries – yet – you seem to be stepping over hers by bringing up the marriage? Maybe Ms Wonka had a boundary that she did not want her M discussed.
I hadn't thought of it in this way. sigh Need to get back to being the rational, thoughtful Wonka now. Deep breath. Thanks for this, Eric.
You could say that I've Fort Knoxed Wonka with several tire spikes sprinkled on all roads here. This happens when I'm disappointed by someone's actions.
Your welcome Wonka
You could say that I've Fort Knoxed Wonka with several tire spikes sprinkled on all roads here. This happens when I'm disappointed by someone's actions.
I suspected as much and understand. I think the tire spikes are the reason you felt the need to communicate the boundary the way that you did. Yes, Ms Wonka has seen you operate this way – but that was 10 years ago – and maybe a lot has changed for Ms Wonka.
I can see the difference between being a people pleasure and empathetic.
So…I looked up Empathy on Wikipedia.
Empathy is the
capacity to recognize emotions that are being experienced by another sentient or fictional being. One may need to have a certain amount of empathy before being able to experience accurate sympathy or compassion.
Further definition….
Empathy has many different definitions that encompass a broad range of emotional states, such as caring for other people and having a desire to help them; experiencing emotions that match another person's emotions;
discerning what another person is thinking or feeling; and making less distinct the differences between the self and the other.Since empathy involves understanding the emotional states of other people, the way it is characterized is derivative of the way emotions themselves are characterized. If, for example, emotions are taken to be centrally characterized by bodily feelings,
then grasping the bodily feelings of ANOTHER will be central to empathy. On the other hand, if emotions are more centrally characterized by a combination of beliefs and desires, then grasping these beliefs and desires will be more essential to empathy. The ability to imagine oneself as another person is a sophisticated imaginative process. However, the basic capacity to recognize emotions is probably innate and may be achieved unconsciously. Yet it can be trained and achieved with various degrees of intensity or accuracy.
Empathy can be divided into two major components
• Affective empathy, also called emotional empathy:the capacity to respond with an appropriate emotion
to another's mental states. Our ability to empathize emotionally is supposed to be based on emotional contagion: being affected by another's emotional or arousal state.
• Cognitive empathy: the
capacity to understand another's perspective or mental state. The terms cognitive empathy and theory of mind are often used synonymously, but due to a lack of studies comparing theory of mind with types of empathy, it is unclear whether these are equivalent.
So if you take a step back and look at the entire interaction….her response…your subsequent response – were you really being empathic to what/how she may be feeling. This by no means is to say that your boundary should have been crossed.
Consider this….what if you would have waited a bit longer, maybe once you guys started to really speak and heal, to express your boundary. Do you think that may have been a better approach. A better way to achieve YOUR goals.
I give you a lot of credit for even attempting this. Personally, I think you can still succeed. IMO, Your success will be based on how you start your interactions with Ms Wonka.
Gineen,Ms. Wonka made that "don't have closure" comment before she moved out of the house.
Eric,I guess you felt that your own 2 x 4 wasn't sufficient. Like the guy that you are, you just had to roll out the massive
Lord of the Rings slingshot here, heh?
Darling, I am pretty darn good at being empathetic. You joined here a bit later. If you've seen my posts around here going back to the Fall, my friends here will attest to this. At this moment, I was wading deep in my own disappointment that empathetic drowned. No worries. I went all Pam Anderson in my red suit and rescued empathetic from the bottom of the ocean floor. She's fine.
Wonka,
It actually was not a 2 x 4. I was simply trying to highlight another way that you might have approach it. It was not a 2 x 4. It was an attempt to help. As I mentioned. I think you can do this and credit you for trying.
Like the guy that you are, you just had to roll out the massive Lord of the Rings slingshot here, heh?
I sense I upset you. That was not my intent. The guy I am, is someone that just tries to help - to give back. That is all. It was not meant to hurt you. I know you are hurting already and FWIW, I am sorry that you are disappointed and/or hurt.
Nope....I am not hurt at all. Eric, I was teasing you as I know guys like to 'fix' things and pull out the biggies. Are you sure that I wasn't married to you?!
Dang, my Pammy Anderson dive was a massive FAIL to you. You didn't notice at all.
I find it interesting that Ms. Wonka turned this convo around to be about "me" healing. Ummmm, Ms. Wonka got hurt as well. Isn't this interesting? It is her view and I cannot change it. I feel that I gave this my most sincere and genuine effort. Just disappointing to see the above response being written by someone else. I will continue onward in my own path and be the awesome Wonka with my hot girl, Cass!
Previously, when I received communications from Ms. Wonka that I know are NOT from her, I completely ignore them. When I do see Ms. Wonka communicating with me directly herself, I responded accordingly. I just don't like the fact that there's "someone" out there speaking for her. It rubs me the wrong way as being inauthentic and not being true to themselves.
So I am trying to understand this...
Are you CERTAIN that she didn't write the response ???
What changes if she DID write the response ???
Does that change the expectations that you placed on it ???
I asked you this a while back...
Specifically, what part of this helps YOU move forward with your life ?
What are hoping (expecting) to gain from this ???
(and I know that you said "nothing" before, although if your end result was truly "nothing", then there would be zero need for it).
I dunno Wonka...
It seems that you expected a different response from her, and when you didn't get the prescribed response, then you fell back to a boundary (which I don't fully understand or see), to allow yourself to push away angrily from her response.
What part of this interaction (that seems to have knocked you on your asss), either helps you to find peace, or keeps you from finding peace ???
Just curious here...
Cause it seems that you are looking for forgiveness, or to find her right where you left her 9 years ago.
It also seems that you are holding her accountable for your feelings about this.
Mach,
Will get back to you later.
Here's Ms. Wonka's response:
Wonka,
I am sorry you are feeling this way. There are no "third party" is in this email. You felt that I was "inauthentic" in my response to you. Frankly, I was puzzled to get this email from you. I took some time to think and to respond in between writing reports last night. I wanted to be clear with my feelings and to understand what you wrote.
I was able to sum up my thoughts and to respond in a way that I was feeling that we were moving along nicely by looking back at what we have done in the beginning when you made the first contact as I am open to the discussion. Also, I feel that in order to move along, by laying things out on the table is what I was referring to. It takes two sides to come to a compromise in continuing the dialogue.
This does not feel good to me. It feels like you are looking for a specific response from me. I would appreciate if you asked first before making the assumption that there is a third party.
Wonka, it takes guts and to each out to make amends. I appreciate it and I agree that the healing process can happen when you and I are ready. If you are worrying how things should turn out, we need to acknowledge what is happening in the moment is what we need to trust. I felt that I came off as respectful and honest with my feelings.
Take care,
MsWonka
Wow, Ms. Wonk has her shid together. I think she handled this well.
Wonks, reply as your most grown up self, not the hurt child. Go back to what the goal of all this is. Sounds like Ms. Wonks is close to pulling the plug if you react again. Just my two cents.
Here's MY response to the ^^ above communication from Ms. Wonka:
MsWonka,
I can see how you would look at it this way. Perhaps I was too rigid in ensuring that what you wrote genuinely came from you. That didn't come out too good at all. That was a big clusterfuck! I guess it came from the perspective of wanting to be real and open.
You are right that this requires some certain level of vulnerability that can be scary. I so appreciate you opening up and being willing to move past this together. Please do know that I am not being dismissive of your feelings and thoughts here.
You are right that it requires the both of us to engage in this dialogue and and try to move forward with the utmost mutual respect, support, and encouragement. Thank you for pointing this out.
As you can see, this will require some certain level of trust. For me, I am very wary and protective here. So let's agree to try our darnest to support each other and be forgiving if either one of us stumbles along as we move along. I guess I went first! Tripping here...what a class act that I am!
I want you to know that I wasn't looking for a specific response here. I wanted to hear "you"...the MsWonka that I know and appreciate. Guess you could say that I didn't trust the process enough to ascertain that this was how you thought and felt. I will try to be more mindful of this. Thanks for bringing this up.
Your honesty cannot be easy at all and I want to acknowledge it.
Thank you for your willingness and receptivity to this reach out to you on our journey together in healing. It is my hope that we'll be able to support one another in this effort.
Have a good day.
Take care,
Wonka
Gineen & Heather,
Saw your replies after I posted all the updates above.
I'd like to come back to you guys later. I am kinda drained emotionally and will need some breathers before coming back here.
BTW, Heather....you can now see why I fell in love with Ms. Wonka in the first place.
Everyone,
This is the MOST we've ever communicated in over 9 years. Phew! I think we're on the right path.
I'll be on the road for the most of this week and most probably will not be back here until Tuesday.
Have a great week/weekend!
Wonka, what is you goal again? I mean, if Ms. Wonka is cool with her life and has let the past go...is all of this really about closure?
I just ask because you seemed so hurt by her initial, cautious response. Did you maybe have expectations that even you weren't really ready to face or get honest about?
Ok. Sorry, just saw your post.
Take it easy girlfriend. ;-)
Mach,
Will get back to you later.
Take your time...
You have had a pretty "draining" day already...
Job,Can you please look out for Blues as she's struggling a bit lately?
Bug & 25,I'm handing over Melissa into your capable hands. Goodness knows she's gonna need some support in her dealings with H.
Thank you!
Wonka,
I think it took "guts" on both parts, i.e, yours and Mrs. Wonka. She's cleared the air a bit and has opened the door just a wee bit to start the process of friendship. You have to remember that it's been a very long time and you both had to start over as "new" people. So, like all new people getting to know one another, it is one teeny baby step at a time. No expectations and just be cordial and share little things w/one another. Rome wasn't built in a day and friendships weren't either.
So, pick yourself up, dust yourself off and continue moving forward w/just a friendly joke once in a while or the question of how she is doing. It's the little things that start the reconnection. Okay.
Now, cool your jets on expectations and just be yourself and allow things to transpire naturally...don't push or rush it.
Job,
Thanks for the pep talk. Just need to remind myself to get back to my thoughtful self. I'll be alright.
The letters back and forth seem more open and I think it's a very positive step for you both.....wishing you peace and joy
What Job said is exactly what I was thinking. Give it some time...
AJ
Everyone,As I was organizing for my business trip and getting all of my ducks in row, Ms. Wonka responded to my earlier response near COB.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Wonka,
Thanks for responding. Yes, it takes guts! Hey, don't put yourself down! [although I laughed at the clusterfuck comment!] It's not a charlie foxtrot or fubar moment! It is easy to joke about it, but in all honesty, you wanted to feel safe enough. Trust the moment! We may disagree at times but that is OK. We are entitled to do so as long as we are open about it. If I don't feel good about it, I will check in with you and I hope you will do the same.
You too have a good day!
MsWonkaMY response ^^^ to Ms. Wonka:
At least we got a good laugh out of this! Score one for our ability to see the funny side in things.
All's good now.
Wonka ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Now you all can breath a collective sigh of relief!!
I'm flat out on my back from all of this in a day...your comments, questions, and intense discussions with Ms. Wonka. Whew.
Oh and I got a card for Ms. Wonka while I was out doing errands.
On the front side of the card are several brightly colored paint tubes with swiggly paint coming out of the tube in bright yellow, blue, purple, orange, and green with large colored dots in the background.
You open up the card. The background of the card is soft blue with a brightly colored rainbow spread across it accompanied by small colored stars. It simply says "Thanks."
I wrote:
Dear MsWonka,
[Thanks}
For your patience w/ my clusterfuck comments!
Wonka
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This is my olive branch to Ms. Wonka.
P.S. The envelope is bright canary yellow...hey I did not pick it out. LOL Reminds me of the HBD card I got from Ms. Wonka.
Oops...left out one critical detail.
The words across the front of the card says:
"You're every shade of wonderful."
Wonka,
I haven’t posted to you before but I do read what you have written on these boards…
I have found your threads very interesting, especially this one.
I can’t say that it hasn’t created some wonder on my part, as I have recently had interactions with my X that seem to be more like genuine amends attempts…
Here is the thing, I have moved on. It has been several years. I have forgiven him without him doing anything to earn that forgivness.
I had to do that in order to be able to move forward with my life. Otherwise there would have been this gaping hole in my being that was just filled with that “lack of closure” that I found I do not need.
His reaching out was actually very off putting to me.
We can talk about family stuff, kid stuff and there are no problems there. However, when he invited me to his family Christmas…it set me back a bit.
I honestly didn’t know how to respond other than to say that I didn’t think THAT was a good idea. I don’t want that much involvement with him if I am completely honest. I am just too different now to even be comfortable entertaining the idea. It doesn’t mean that I want to cause him any pain though, so cautious was my response.
I can understand Ms. Wonka’s initial response. What you have to understand, is that SHE is different NOW. And you made a huge leap in assuming that it was not her who wrote it.
That all being said, I doubt that you are going to like what I am going to say however I don’t usually beat around the bush…
I have found a few other interesting things in your threads.
I have wondered if deep inside you really want reconciliation, even if you believe that it isn’t in the cards… maybe that is why you keep referring to MsWonka’s life partner as OW. She may have been OW 10 years ago, but that was 10 years ago. And why you chose to throw the idea of her being married up in her face at the first chance you got.
I don’t believe that you weren’t hurt by the initial response and I do wonder why you seem to not be ok with admitting that something hurt you…You aren’t made of steel, none of us are. It is ok to have feelings.
I will be honest and say I didn’t like the tone that you took with Eric. It was a little condescending. Yes he was a boneheaded macho Rican when he came here, but now…mostly just a bonehead
But what concerned me the most…
Was your indignation at the idea that MsWonka showed your personal email to someone else, even going so far as to state…
It is reasonable to assume that if a person (be it a relative, coworker, or friend) confided in you with this type of personal stuff, you don't break their trust by showing another person his/her email. Does this sound reasonable to most people, right?
While you post the verbatim emails between the two of you all day…
Maybe you need to dig a little deeper?
Cat,
Thanks for stopping by. As you can tell, I am avoiding some work-related paperwork at the moment.
Here is the thing, I have moved on. It has been several years. I have forgiven him without him doing anything to earn that forgivness.
I had to do that in order to be able to move forward with my life. Otherwise there would have been this gaping hole in my being that was just filled with that “lack of closure” that I found I do not need.
His reaching out was actually very off putting to me.This is your journey and it's your story. No two sitches are exactly alike nor are the parties involved exactly alike.
I have wondered if deep inside you really want reconciliation, even if you believe that it isn’t in the cards… maybe that is why you keep referring to MsWonka’s life partner as OWNot really. In the early years, this was the case. I have dated and I am comfortable with where I am in regard to the personal growth. As for referring to Ms. Wonka as the OW, this is how we identify the people in our threads. The OW was the OW even if their status has evolved in the present day. I've seen people write OMM/OWW as in OM Married or OW Wife around here. It is a personal preference here in DB forums. Thanks for pointing it out.
I don’t believe that you weren’t hurt by the initial response and I do wonder why you seem to not be ok with admitting that something hurt youThis is your opinion. Honestly, I was not hurt at all. HUGELY DISAPPOINTED initially with the mindset & view that a 'third party' had composed the response forher...yes. Now that has been cleared up by Ms. Wonka and I could feel myself relax knowing that she did not compromise the integrity of our communications. So I responded accordingly.
I will be honest and say I didn’t like the tone that you took with Eric. It was a little condescending.I am sorry that is how you feel. Not my intention here at all. Eric has been a tremendous help around here. I use dry humor a lot around here and sometimes it just does not always come across as intended.
But what concerned me the most…
Was your indignation at the idea that MsWonka showed your personal email to someone else, even going so far as to state…
Originally Posted By: Wonka
It is reasonable to assume that if a person (be it a relative, coworker, or friend) confided in you with this type of personal stuff, you don't break their trust by showing another person his/her email. Does this sound reasonable to most people, right?
While you post the verbatim emails between the two of you all day…
Maybe you need to dig a little deeper?Do you know or ever met Ms. Wonka in real life? Nope. No one here knows me or Ms. Wonka in real life so there's a very high degree of privacy right there. In real life, people in Ms. Wonka's circle know me. Therein lies the main issue. A huge distinction there.
I am starting to feel comfortable with the path that Ms. Wonka and I are on in terms of reconnecting as friends. Yes, we will be making new discoveries along the way and figuring out stuff in the best possible way we can. Sure, we'll make tons of mistakes along the way.
Do you know or ever met Ms. Wonka in real life? Nope. No one here knows me or Ms. Wonka in real life so there's a very high degree of privacy right there.
How do you know that I don't know either one of you?
More assumptions?
Gineen,
I can understand why you would be flummoxed and mystified by this whole process.
To be fair to Ms. Wonka, she did try to reach out to me a few times in the past and I just slammed the door right in her face. We each were very deeply hurt and slammed the door in each other's faces at different times over the years. Again, as I said previously, it is all the timing thing at play here. Some stuff are intangibles that you cannot quite put a finger on.
I think all of this has a lot to do with the passage of time, both of us moving on with our love lives, and milestones taking place in our lives (we both lost our Dads) that, I'd like to think, has aided in the maturation process for the two of us.
I am quite positive that Ms. Wonka has done a lot of self-reflection and I have as well over the past few years. You can see this in Ms. Wonka's responses here.
At the very most basic level, Ms. Wonka and I were great friends which was the main glue that connected the two of us. We laugh at the same things, discuss the same interests, and truly enjoyed each other's company. I also think that a lot of the internal work we each undertook by and within ourselves over the years has prepared us for this part of our journey. Can't beat this type of friendship, right?
It is a gift that we are trying to give to each other once again and slowly working our way toward each other as friends. Forgiveness is a very powerful force in the Universe. I am not one to pass it up at all! Also can reasonably say that Ms. Wonka probably feels the same as well.
Cat,
I can say with 100% certainty that we don't know each other at all in RL. I sense that you're trying to play the devil's advocate here just for the sake of it. To what end does that achieve? Nothing.
Thanks.
Wonka,
No I was not playing devil's advocate.
It really is possible that we have met. I lived in a town with another DBer, and I knew what she looked like through FB. While we had never interacted here other than me reading her posts, on more than one occasion I saw her out and about in Starbucks, the mall, at the park...
I never made the attempt to get to know her because wow that could have been a little awkward and embarrassing, I did know who she was and I knew quite a bit about her life without ever having spoken a word to her.
Where I live now there are other DBers and I know who some of them are. I don't know them personally though.
So one part of my point was that it really is entirely possible.
The other part of it was why is you posting it to "strangers" in comparison to her telling someone you know any different?
A breach of confidence is still a breach of confidence.
Just like a lie is a lie. Size doesn't matter.
I don't really care if you want to reconcile or not. That is your business. I do care about you being honest with yourself about how you really feel. That is truly the first step towards healing this.
I sense that you have guilt and remorse and it appears that you feel it will only be resolved with MsWonka's help.
It might make it easier to deal with those things but you definately can resolve it without her as well.
I am not the only one that got the impression that you were feeling hurt. Maybe that is simply us inserting how we think we would feel in your situation IDK.
I also know that I am not the only person who has interperated your dry humor as something different.
While I do believe it is pretty good to have enough selfconfidence that we don't care about what others think of us, it is also important to have enough self awareness to be able to effectivly communicate without coming across as arrogant and superior.
You are right, Eric has helped a lot around here. And I know he doesn't need me or anyone else to defend him. I actually wasn't trying to do that.
I was using your response to him as a specific example of the "tone" that I have seen you use often times with other posters.
You appear quite dismissive of people sometimes.
Wonka, you went through a MLC. Personally, I have questioned if you are just now really working through the acceptance parts of it a little bit.
Because of that, you understand MLC from a different perspective than us LBS.
I don't think either side of this monster is the easier path. I think your perspective is good for the LBS to see. Just as I think seeing our pain and growth and whatnot is good for you to see. But they are two very different sides of the same coin.
Anyhoo...
All food for thought I guess.
Wonka
I wasn’t planning on responding, since you are already getting quite a few responses from other posters BUT I did want to touch on a few things…
I was teasing you as I know guys like to 'fix' things and pull out the biggies.
I was not trying to “fix” things. Lord knows no one can fix another. I was simply trying to point out a few things that I noticed.
Are you sure that I wasn't married to you?!
Pretty sure – then again – you never know. Although since you have not blamed me for global warming, starvation and all of YOUR problems – we’ll then you cannot be my ex. (that is my attempt at humor).
Mach, Cat, Job and others all seem to be saying the same thing to you. Slow down, you are making assumptions, your hurt, etc – Maybe everyone is wrong. I dunno. I suspect that is not the case and that maybe we have touch on something that “stung”. If we did, it really is okay Wonka. We all have chit that we need to continue to work on. All of us.
As for the 1st responses from Ms Wonka..
1- I am happy that she appears to be open to trying to work with you on the healing.
2- Her comment to you of “I am sorry you are feeling this way”…. Had me cracking up. It was almost as if she was dbing YOU.
3- She took ownership for HER feelings, yet validated YOURs.
4- She called you out on your bullchit that someone else wrote the letter.
5- She state her boundary in a nice concise way that did not come across as an attack.
6- He letter came across as sincere.
You have your work cut out for you Wonka. Also, I found no anger in her response – unlike yours. This is the area I really think you need to work on. The anger is somehow coming across in your posts. As Lois said…”Ms Wonka has her chit together.
In terms of your response…
1- ‘
Perhaps I was too rigid in ensuring that what you wrote genuinely came from you. I would have said perhaps. It did. Ms Wonka even said it did. IMO, PRIDE is playing a role in your response. Get rid of the pride.. Maybe next time a “I am sorry my response came across the way that it did – that was not my intent”.
2- Otherwise I think you did a very good job of trying to undo what you had previously done.
Going forward, I would suggest that you read Job response to you at 3:14. Take it slow…..
As Cat and others have pointed out…it has been a long time. The both of you have changed and matured. Trust has to be reestablished.
I wanted to modified Cat’s post a bit…
Yes he was a boneheaded macho Rican when he came here, but now…mostly just a bonehead
I think she meant….mostly just a handsome, hot, funny, compassionate bonehead  (another attempt at humor).
Cat – I always love your post. You are a very special person to me!
In terms of your response to Cat….
This is your journey and it's your story. No two sitches are exactly alike nor are the parties involved exactly alike.
You have a valid point. Very valid. The issue though that I see is HOW you respond. It comes across as dismissive, condescending and off putting. Maybe it is how I and other interpret it. Maybe it is not. The thing about communication IMO, is the recipient of the communication. One of the changes that I needed to make was to learn how to communicate to others that was done in a manner that 1) worked for them and enable them to understand my point 2) achieved my goal. I say this as a suggestion. Then again, maybe it is just me.
This is your opinion. Honestly, I was not hurt at all. HUGELY DISAPPOINTED initially with the mindset & view that a 'third party' had composed the response for her...yes. Now that has been cleared up by Ms. Wonka and I could feel myself relax knowing that she did not compromise the integrity of our communications. So I responded accordingly.
Another observation….. You acknowledge that the third party composing response issues has been cleared up, yet you never acknowledge that you were wrong. You never post something that say…”hey you guys, you were right I over reacted and assumed something I should not have”. Instead you gloss it over and say….”this is your opinion”. IMO, this is PRIDE. So I ask you Wonka – can you at least see what I am trying to say? Can you see where maybe…how you react may need a little work? FTR, I still struggle with it myself.
from Gabbymom……..The friends with an ex thing always throws me.
I agree. Ms Wonka is married now, and I totally understand and agree with the need to heal – I just wonder if deep down inside you want more than just friends. I would ask you to consider how Ms Wonka partner may feel.
It is a gift that we are trying to give to each other once again and slowly working our way toward each other as friends. Forgiveness is a very powerful force in the Universe. I am not one to pass it up at all! Also can reasonably say that Ms. Wonka probably feels the same as well.
Then why did you get so upset that Ms Wonka did not mention that she was married? My gut tells me, that yes you want to be friends with Ms Wonka but maybe deep down inside you want more. Could Ms Wonka partner join you guys out for dinner? Is Ms Wonka going to have to leave and exclude her partner when dealing with you? So Wonka, how do you see the friendship between you and Ms Wonka working out?
Cat,
You are right, Eric has helped a lot around here. And I know he doesn't need me or anyone else to defend him. I actually wasn't trying to do that.
Thank you Cat – I do try to help a little. I know you were not trying to defend me.
I’ll close with this….If anything I have written you offends you – I am sorry that is not my intent. I wish you much love, peace and happiness Wonka. if you prefer that I not post to you – I will respect that. Just let me know. You can email me directly use my tag name @(the largest email service provider that starts with the letter G).
Peace,
Eric
Cat,
It really is possible that we have met. I lived in a town with another DBer, and I knew what she looked like through FB. While we had never interacted here other than me reading her posts, on more than one occasion I saw her out and about in Starbucks, the mall, at the park...
I never made the attempt to get to know her because wow that could have been a little awkward and embarrassing, I did know who she was and I knew quite a bit about her life without ever having spoken a word to her.
Let me set you straight here. We have NEVER met nor ever will. Even if we had the ability to do so, I have no desire to meet you in RL. 1) I do not have a FB account 2) I don't drink coffee 3) I have never met anyone here in RL 4) I am very careful with information about me that I post here to ensure that I am "anonymous." 5) You may not realize how your comments about this matter come across as close to being "stalkish." I am uncomfortable with your thought process here. I just don't go around thinking "oh my, that's a possible DBer!"
The other part of it was why is you posting it to "strangers" in comparison to her telling someone you know any different?
A breach of confidence is still a breach of confidence.
Just like a lie is a lie. Size doesn't matter.
This is an area were we obviously disagree. It sounds like you don't agree with my POV, then you come out with what's pretty close to a boldface accusation of calling me a liar.
Using your logic, then each person has broken their spouses' "confidence" by making the very post here in DB. Therefore it makes ALL of us confidence violators. Oh my, MWD better just fold down this site because it could impact her professional license for 'knowingly' facilitating breaches of confidence!
I don't necessarily share your POV on this topic. And that's okay. The best feature of this website is it allows for us to be anonymous and come together as a "virtual" community to support each other during a very difficult time in our lives. When I don't agree with a poster's POV, I bring it up then let it rest. I don't browbeat the poster into submission. This is how I feel when reading your posts about this so-called "breaching confidence" issue.
While I do believe it is pretty good to have enough selfconfidence that we don't care about what others think of us, it is also important to have enough self awareness to be able to effectivly communicate without coming across as arrogant and superior.
Absolutely! Sometimes my humor just falls flat. Ah, that's okay. I see some posters trying to be funny and I go, "gee, that didn't come out quite as he/she intended." Injection of humor is a MUST around the forums here...goodness knows we all need it to get through chit when our marriages are suffering with affairs and what not.
I was using your response to him as a specific example of the "tone" that I have seen you use often times with other posters.
You appear quite dismissive of people sometimes.
I am sorry if I come across as being dismissive to some people. It is not who I am and it saddens me to hear that people actually think I am being dismissive.
I don't really care if you want to reconcile or not. That is your business. I do care about you being honest with yourself about how you really feel. That is truly the first step towards healing this.
Not all situations are black and white. You just don't know how life unfolds. What I am focused on is the reconnection of our friendship. Reconciliation is one of the many options. That isn't my focus at all. See the difference?
I sense that you have guilt and remorse and it appears that you feel it will only be resolved with MsWonka's help.
It might make it easier to deal with those things but you definately can resolve it without her as well.
My guilt has lessened quite bit over the years as I've worked really hard on examining and looking at my MLC journey from all perspectives which has been greatly aided by this DB forum. I've reached self-acceptance. As for the remorse, yes...it is there and it is genuine remorse which I am working on by making sincere amends to Ms. Wonka. Remorse is the step in recognition that a wrong has been done to another person. I'm incredibly blessed that Ms. Wonka is open to my attempt towards that end. What a gift!
Wonka, you went through a MLC. Personally, I have questioned if you are just now really working through the acceptance parts of it a little bit.
Not really. What I am working through is learning the process of making sincere amends. This is something that I am leaning on Bea, Job, and others to guide me. Yep, I may mess up from time to time. Heck, this is wicked scary and it took a long time to work up the nerve to send that letter to Ms. Wonka. It makes sense to me that if you really, really hurt someone badly you would want to try to make things right.
Thanks, Cat, for raising some interesting points.
Eric,
Quote:
I was teasing you as I know guys like to 'fix' things and pull out the biggies.
I was not trying to “fix” things. Lord knows no one can fix another. I was simply trying to point out a few things that I noticed. I know and see that you were attempting to point things out to me. I guess this is one of my humor fails. What I was trying to get at is playing up to the "stereotype", in a fun way, of men being the 'fixers' and playing with big toys. Ah. I hope you know see this in that vein.
Pretty sure – then again – you never know. Although since you have not blamed me for global warming, starvation and all of YOUR problems – we’ll then you cannot be my ex. (that is my attempt at humor).Ooooohhh goodie...thanks for this tidbit. I'll keep this in the back of my mind for the next time I razz you.
1- ‘Perhaps I was too rigid in ensuring that what you wrote genuinely came from you. I would have said perhaps. It did. Ms Wonka even said it did. IMO, PRIDE is playing a role in your response. Get rid of the pride.. Maybe next time a “I am sorry my response came across the way that it did – that was not my intent”. This is a good feedback...I can see how it could have come out much better if I had opened it with that particular line. Will keep it in mind for future reference.
You have a valid point. Very valid. The issue though that I see is HOW you respond. It comes across as dismissive, condescending and off putting. Ouch. Never was my intent at all. I was trying to be concise and clear to Cat. It was her story and I actually winced at her story because she could have made other choices that didn't make her feel uncomfortable.
Another observation….. You acknowledge that the third party composing response issues has been cleared up, yet you never acknowledge that you were wrong. You never post something that say…”hey you guys, you were right I over reacted and assumed something I should not have”.Yep, after Ms. Wonka and I cleared this part up...I saw that my assumption was waay off base and clearly in the wrong. Hence my response to her in smoothing things over and it came from the heart. It is what it is.
Then why did you get so upset that Ms Wonka did not mention that she was married? My gut tells me, that yes you want to be friends with Ms Wonka but maybe deep down inside you want more.
The initial upset part was the ASSumption that someone composed the response to me and I threw in the "come-on-right-out-with-I'm-now-married" comment in response to Ms. Wonka's comment of wanting to 'discuss a few things with you.' Like you said earlier, I crossed one of her boundaries. It is nothing to do with wanting more. It was a reaction to the possibility of someone actually reading my letter and composing a response to it. See? It is actually silly to me now.
Got my equilibrium back now! And ABOUT time too!
Could Ms Wonka partner join you guys out for dinner? Is Ms Wonka going to have to leave and exclude her partner when dealing with you? So Wonka, how do you see the friendship between you and Ms Wonka working out? It is hard to predict how things will turn out. When Ms. Wonka and I were together, the OW came to our house several times as a friend. Personally, I've never liked her from day one. Not due to any emotion. From day one, I've always had bad vibes from her. I just don't see myself going out to dinner with Ms. Wonka and the OW. I just don't. Not any more than DBers will go out to dinner with their EXW/EXH and their new spouses. I'm no different. Eric, do you see yourself going out to dinner with your EXW and her husband? I think not.
I’ll close with this….If anything I have written you offends you – I am sorry that is not my intent.I absolutely know this deep in my heart. The same goes for all the posters here. I can take all the shots with the best of 'em! I am thick skinned.
I better get back to Mach stat or he'll dance on my kitchen counter in his pink tutu!!!!
God forbid!!
Mach,
Stay away from my kitchen counter. Tut. Don't even think of it!!
I guess most of the answers to your questions have been pretty much addressed in the subsequent flurry of posts.
What part of this interaction (that seems to have knocked you on your asss), either helps you to find peace, or keeps you from finding peace ???
The notion that someone in Ms. Wonka's circle actually read my heartfelt attempt at making amends and actually composing a response to it. That's what got my nose out of joint and I reacted based on that particular POV. I scold myself for not making allowances to Ms. Wonka that it WAS actually her who composed it. A lesson learned. Also I was really, really wound up very tight with tension and it all uncorked pretty super fast. The next time I will do what I've always done...go for a walk and let my thoughts go unleashed out in Nature. I need to remind myself of this when the 'ego' in my head goes haywire. My calm, cool inner Spock was kidnapped by the evil Klingons on a some far, far away planet.
It also seems that you are holding her accountable for your feelings about this.
Hmmmm..I've given this some thought. I cannot say that I am "holding" Ms. Wonka accountable for my feelings about this. What happened is that my tension got too wound up with ASSumptions and I unleashed it because my little 'ego' in my head beat my coool Spock to a pulp in a dimly lighted back alley under a flickering overhead lightpost. Go figure..Spock is the skinny pasty guy. There won't be a next time.
Thanks for swinging by from your tree vine, Tarzan!
I think a third person is writing some of Wonka's posts here. I'm pretty sure I seen her in the coffee shop.
I guess most of the answers to your questions have been pretty much addressed in the subsequent flurry of posts.
Most...somewhat
Some of them that went through my mind, that others asked, were answered too. And there were some that raised more questions about things....
I spent some time re-reading your thread to find out what this boundary was, and to understand it fully.
What it was that you were trying to get across...
Am I correct in assuming that the boundary was that you would not tolerate Ms Wonka sharing your personal correspondence with other people ?
And that was the line that you drew in the sand ????
What part of this interaction (that seems to have knocked you on your asss), either helps you to find peace, or keeps you from finding peace ???
The notion that someone in Ms. Wonka's circle actually read my heartfelt attempt at making amends and actually composing a response to it. That's what got my nose out of joint and I reacted based on that particular POV. I scold myself for not making allowances to Ms. Wonka that it WAS actually her who composed it. A lesson learned. Also I was really, really wound up very tight with tension and it all uncorked pretty super fast. The next time I will do what I've always done...go for a walk and let my thoughts go unleashed out in Nature. I need to remind myself of this when the 'ego' in my head goes haywire. My calm, cool inner Spock was kidnapped by the evil Klingons on a some far, far away planet.
MY question was on a much larger scale than this one incident. It's the same question that I asked you on UR's
MLC and the Holiday thread a couple months ago, and you did not respond to it.
The peace that I am referring to isn't about just one thing or another. The peace, is the peace in your life, your personal "Zen" that seems to be elusive for you.
I have had conversations with dozens of people that have come through MLC. I have read every word of AmyC's over 10,000 posts, and sat across from her and talked another 10,000 words in real time.
Doesn't make me any kind of expert in MLC, yet it does make me a expert in MY perspective about MLC.
The HARDEST part for every MLCer, no matter how different their journey has been, is that they struggle for years over forgiving themself. And until they find that forgiveness, there is no peace in their life. The struggle is daily, and they still search , and anal-ize every detail of their lives to find out what went wrong. What the F just happened....
You can tell me that I am wrong, and smokescreen the hell out of it. But I don't think that I am too far off.
You can tell me that no two MLC's are the same, and yours was unique, I will not argue that point with you. Yet the beginning emotions, and the ending emotions are very similar. So similar that the MLC for dummies that is posted here by Smurf seems to fit everyone that is or has gone through it.
Check, check, check...that was me.
By either seeing it, or by doing it.
It also seems that you are holding her accountable for your feelings about this.
Hmmmm..I've given this some thought. I cannot say that I am "holding" Ms. Wonka accountable for my feelings about this. What happened is that my tension got too wound up with ASSumptions and I unleashed it because my little 'ego' in my head beat my coool Spock to a pulp in a dimly lighted back alley under a flickering overhead lightpost. Go figure..Spock is the skinny pasty guy. There won't be a next time.
Difference of words ? Same result ?
You may call it Tomato, I may call it Tomoto.
Your reaction ( or overreaction) caused a response that YOU admittedly did NOT want to have. You assumed, and accused HER of doing something that you were (at the time) unsure of.
That doesn't change the accountability that you hold over your emotions to something that SHE did, or in this case....didn't do.
In hindsight, you admit that you were wrong, which is owning your feelings. Being pissed AT her in the beginning ? Because you didn't take the time to get the facts ?? Laying down that boundary because of your assumption ??
You held her responsible for your emotions, or feelings. And ultimately, your actions.
Let me set you straight here. We have NEVER met nor ever will. Even if we had the ability to do so, I have no desire to meet you in RL. 1) I do not have a FB account 2) I don't drink coffee 3) I have never met anyone here in RL 4) I am very careful with information about me that I post here to ensure that I am "anonymous." 5) You may not realize how your comments about this matter come across as close to being "stalkish." I am uncomfortable with your thought process here. I just don't go around thinking "oh my, that's a possible DBer!"
This isn't mine to own...yet I find it laughable.....
No, you do not know this 100%. You may be at fifty, you might even squeak out a 75 % if it is a good day, and the wind is right.
Truth is, the amount of people that we meet in our lifetime, compared to the amount of people's lives that we touch is a very different ratio. How do you know that you did not go to school together, or have met standing in line at the grocery store. I'm pretty sure that Cat didn't say that she DID know you, just that you could never be 100% certain.
How do you know that she doesn't know Ms Wonka, or that I don't know Ms Wonka ? How do you know that I'm not the guy that works on Ms Wonka's car, or bicycle ?? Or that Cat isn't your hairdresser, or Ms Wonka's hairdresser ???
We post on a public forum, and the information that we give is enough to spark a conversation in a person mind, enough to remember the smallest detail of connection.
Who are you to say that Cat wasn't cutting Ms Wonka's hair, and she mentioned a past relationship, and her old partner has a new hot girl named Cass ??
This is the part of this that you have apologized for several times throughout this thread. That you didn't intend to come across in the manner in which you did. There seems to be a certain "I am the one that went through MLC, so I am correct" . I see very little give in your posts. No realization that somebody, other than you, could possibly be correct about something.
And even though you apologize, the pattern repeats....
With that, you are completely missing the point that Cat made about posting the emails.
A betrayal is a betrayal.
You stole a lollipop , I stole a car. Any difference there ? Aren't they both still stealing ?
I lied about how old I am, you lied about your shoe size(or whatever). They are BOTH still a lie, no matter how innocent, or how deadly they are.
A betrayal, is still a betrayal.
You set a boundary based on Ms Wonka sharing your personal attempt to make amends with her. And your response to that was to post HER personal attempt to make amends with you...here. A public forum where ANYONE can read. the last time I saw it, this thread had been viewed about 1,670 times, and that only logs people that are registered.
It doesn't matter who you know, or how you share. You laid a boundary that you are not willing to follow yourself. How credible can you possibly be when those are the ground rules that you set ?
Do as I say, and not as I do ?
Hardly the basis of a mutually trusting relationship huh ???
And please don't feel the need to "set me straight", talk down to me, or patronize me about anything that I have posted to you. If you want to continue this with a mutual respect, I will do that.
I only post from MY perspective. MLC has changed my life, and I have seen it as a child, and as an adult. It has forged the person that I am today. Not from anger, from understanding.
It doesn't serve either of us well, for me to question your journey, or for you to question my journey. I respect what you have went through. There is a certain amount of credibility from me to you because of your journey. And just like I try to do everyday...I try to earn the rest.
All of the people that do post, have posted, or will post to you, only want YOU to find peace...
Including me....
Mach,
It's the same question that I asked you on UR's MLC and the Holiday thread a couple months ago, and you did not respond to it.
I must have missed it. I'll need to go back there...I am not sure if I've read the thread at all. Thanks.
The HARDEST part for every MLCer, no matter how different their journey has been, is that they struggle for years over forgiving themself. And until they find that forgiveness, there is no peace in their life. The struggle is daily, and they still search , and anal-ize every detail of their lives to find out what went wrong. What the F just happened....
Spot on. I've shared this here in my threads. It is all there.
Difference of words ? Same result ?
You may call it Tomato, I may call it Tomoto.
Your reaction ( or overreaction) caused a response that YOU admittedly did NOT want to have. You assumed, and accused HER of doing something that you were (at the time) unsure of.
That doesn't change the accountability that you hold over your emotions to something that SHE did, or in this case....didn't do.
It isn't a matter of word choices or not. It is knowing that Ms. Wonka isn't accountable or responsible for my emotions. Inside my head was a battle with the 'ego' chattering the loudest in my head and won. We all have control over how we respond. We all f*uck up from time to time. How is it that you see that I am holding Ms. Wonka accountable for MY emotions? I am truly, truly not seeing it at all. I am owning MY reaction and I do see it for what it was.
In hindsight, you admit that you were wrong, which is owning your feelings. Being pissed AT her in the beginning ? Because you didn't take the time to get the facts ?? Laying down that boundary because of your assumption ??
You held her responsible for your emotions, or feelings. And ultimately, your actions.
The 'holding" Ms. Wonka "accountable" as you say for crossing the boundary was based on an assumption that turned out to be ERRONEOUS. This is what most people normally would do if they feel their boundary has been crossed...then they take steps to address it immediately so it does not happen. When Ms. Wonka corrected this ASSumption, I recognized that my reaction was as a result of faulty thinking. Nothing to do with having her be held responsible for MY emotions. Any more than you are responsible for me feeling sad because my father passed away. I don't think...'it is Mach's fault that I'm feeling sad now!' See?
To me, holding someone accountable means they NEED to shoulder the responsibility for xxxx action and they need to fix xxxx action. Like the a young man scratching your car with a key. Does this mean that the young man should hold you accountable for his feelings on scratching the car? Absolutely not!
No, you do not know this 100%.
You could be right.
How do you know that she doesn't know Ms Wonka, or that I don't know Ms Wonka ? How do you know that I'm not the guy that works on Ms Wonka's car, or bicycle ?? Or that Cat isn't your hairdresser, or Ms Wonka's hairdresser ???
I'd be very, very interesting if Cat is indeed Ms. Wonka's hairdresser in RL!
There seems to be a certain "I am the one that went through MLC, so I am correct" . I see very little give in your posts. No realization that somebody, other than you, could possibly be correct about something.
Really? I don't think it is how I've come in my posts about the MLC experience. As you would note, I have stressed that there's been a general commonalities across the MLC spectrum, but each MLCer is different. People have shared their experiences with their MLCer that are helpful in exchanging information about this "disease" here. I have given a quite bit around here. To suggest that I give very little is way off base and insulting. Go back and re-read my threads & other threads here in MLC.
With that, you are completely missing the point that Cat made about posting the emails.
A betrayal is a betrayal.
You stole a lollipop , I stole a car. Any difference there ? Aren't they both still stealing ?
I lied about how old I am, you lied about your shoe size(or whatever). They are BOTH still a lie, no matter how innocent, or how deadly they are.
A betrayal, is still a betrayal.
You all seem want to make it very black and white here. One has to take the "breaching of confidence" in context. You feel this way and I feel differently. That is okay. We can have 1,000 people view the Mona Lisa and all will have different views of the painting. Does that mean all of them are wrong?
You laid a boundary that you are not willing to follow yourself.
I can certainly follow this boundary by withdrawing from Divorce Busting site and never post ever again. How would this be helpful to others here who struggle with the MLCer spouse in not seeing how this MLCer has progressed in her own journey from the other side? This is my gift here and FREELY given without any expectation.
I only post from MY perspective.
If you want to continue this with a mutual respect, I will do that.
It is okay for you to do this but not okay give me the same opportunity here? Hmmmm...this doesn't come across as respecting my POV and perspectives here.
All of the people that do post, have posted, or will post to you, only want YOU to find peace...
Me too. Working toward that goal. It is hard to do so without it's twin...forgiveness. See?
FY,
Dang...did you really hafta give away my secret!?? Some snitch that you are, bud.
Wonka
I hope you know see this in that vein
Yes I now do. As for humor fails… we all have them. I try to highlight that it is me trying to be funny.
I can see how it could have come out much better if I had opened it with that particular line. Will keep it in mind for future reference.
I am glad I was able to help. I find that when I want to write something often times, its best if I step back or have someone that is NOT emotionally as invest read it. It works for me. Although it is not always easy. My tendency used to be to quickly respond – I found that it is NOT a good thing to do, when I am emotionally invested.
Ouch. Never was my intent at all. I was trying to be concise and clear to Cat.
Yeah…that was a 2 x 4. I am sure it is not your intent. From an outsider looking in, it does come across a certain way that is not always “nice” per se. I believe it is not your intent. It is a matter of communication styles – I need to figure yours out ie. Tone, humor, etc. you need to figure out mine.
The initial upset part was the ASSumption that someone composed the response to me and I threw in the "come-on-right-out-with-I'm-now-married" comment in response to Ms. Wonka's comment of wanting to 'discuss a few things with you.' Like you said earlier, I crossed one of her boundaries. It is nothing to do with wanting more. It was a reaction to the possibility of someone actually reading my letter and composing a response to it. See? It is actually silly to me now.
I think I see your point. I’m not sure you see mine but it’s okay. In the grand scheme of things…I have some thought on one other bigger fish, which I will get into in a sec. Oh…and please this is not an attack on you – rather more of a….”I hope you consider this” type point I want to make.
Eric, do you see yourself going out to dinner with your EXW and her husband? I think not.
First assumptions su*k! I hate’m yet, I do the same darn thing. You assumed i.e. “I think not”. It is a wrong assumption. To be honest with you, I offered to take my XW and her boyfriend (OM who left his wife for my XW) to dinner. I offered to pay for it. I was when my son graduated high school. Ya see, although I really do not care for my xw’s “personality” – I do not think she as a human being is a “bad person”. Nor do I feel that xh is a “bad person”. Yes their actions can be difficult most times, and yes I do not see eye to eye with either of them – but it really does not matter. I am not sure I am explaining this correctly. I am truly at peace with me. I truly hope that my xw is happy now. Really I do. Heck I wish for it. I hope she finds the happiness that will help her become a better person. Become a better mom a....best of all .....a better co parent. OM, used to bother me – he doesn’t. I actually feel bad for him. His daughters disowned him and he is with someone who is….in many way broken. So yes, I would have my xw AND OM over for dinner. Another reason…..which….will lead me to the point that I really wanted to make…..was that
I RESPECT their relationship. Yep. I do not agree with it but I can respect it.
I would not want OM to feel like I am making a move on his partner.
Yep – two wrongs do not make a right.
This is the one issue (if you can really call it that) that I have with you trying to be friends with Ms Wonka.
From where I sit, it makes you appear (though chances are you are NOT) like you want more with Ms Wonka. Almost as if you do not respect their relationship. It give the appearance that YOUR friendship is MORE important than Ms Wonka marriage. Now, I suspect (although I am not 100% sure) that your response may be….that Ms Wonka wants to be friends. That she reached out...that she extended the olive branch. Okay…I get that…however, do YOU think it is appropriate? Can you see how complicated this could get? For you, for Ms Wonka, for Ms Wonka partner? Can you see how Ms Wonka partner could end up feeling like an LBS?
Had you responded…yeah…Ms. Wonka wife can come over…well then my response would be different. I am not saying I am right. And honestly, I think I have already touched on this enough - so I'll let it go.
I know that Mach is trying to show you something and I am not trying to interrupt that….but just consider the actions that you are taking and HOW you are taking them. IMO, involve Ms. Wonka partner somehow..
Once again, this is being said with mucho love … I hope you can see the point I am trying to make and consider it.
Eric,
My tendency used to be to quickly respond – I found that it is NOT a good thing to do, when I am emotionally invested. I think almost all of us has had this experience. You would think we'd learn this by now, huh?
It is a matter of communication styles – I need to figure yours out ie. Tone, humor, etc. you need to figure out mine. Yup. This applies to all of us here with words on the screen which makes it more challenging to all of us without the inflection of our voices.
First assumptions su*k! I hate’m yet, I do the same darn thing. You assumed i.e. “I think not”. It is a wrong assumption. To be honest with you, I offered to take my XW and her boyfriend (OM who left his wife for my XW) to dinner.There we go with assumptions again! Darn it.
Wow. My hat's off to you.
I am not sure I am explaining this correctly. I do get what you're saying here, Eric. I do.
I actually feel bad for him. His daughters disowned him and he is with someone who is….in many way broken.This is where our sitches differ. Ms. Wonka wasn't/isn't a broken person. She was at a very vulnerable point in her life when the OW made the moves on her from 1,200 miles away. This makes the OW the broken one. To be perfectly honest, even before all the crazy stuff happened, I never really interacted with the OW when she visited us...I was polite and cordial to her. That was the extent of my interactions with her. She was friends with Ms. Wonka.
So, no, I am not at the place in my life right now where I feel comfortable with the notion of interacting the OW in any shape, manner, and form. Like many spouses here, we all are not comfy with the notion of interacting with the OMM or OWW. If it was another person after the OW, it'd be a different story. Like Ellie's example, she has no problem with her EXH's new wife because she was not the OW that broke up their marriage. Do you see where I am coming from? I am not in that place right now. Who knows...I may be able to do so down the road.
This doesn't mean that I'm making moves on Ms. Wonka. Again, you just don't know how life will unfold. I would like to refer to what Job posted in my earlier thread:
Wonka,
You never know what the future may hold. I've seen many MLC breakups and remarriages take place and lo and behold, many years later the original spouses are back together and happy as can be...so, Mrs. Wonka may have remarried...but that doesn't mean a thing in today's society when it comes to dealing w/MLC.
Does this mean that they didn't respect their spouses' marriages to other people? Does that mean that this person "made the moves" on their original spouses? Who are you to judge them by moralizing "love" between two people who made their free-will choice to remarry each other? Who gets to decide this?
To wit, reconciliation is on the table as one of the many options. I am not 'pursuing' Ms. Wonka with this goal in mind. I am working toward reconnecting with Ms. Wonka as a friend because that was what we were once before. Unlike the OW, I have integrity and have shown that consistently for 9 years by respecting their space.
Oh and another thing. I do want to bring up how our upbringing colors our own experiences.
On my mother's side of the family, we've shown unconditional love by actions and words. My sisters and I have learned it in action by watching our mother and maternal grandmother in action through osmosis.
I have three sisters whom I am very close to.
Sister #1 is a twice-divorcee. All throughout her divorces, she still is good friends with her ex-BF from high school who is happily married. Does this mean my sister is trying to make moves on him?
Sister #2 is three-time divorcee. This past 2 Christmases ago, her ex-husband and current husband all spent our family Christmas with the kids, my sisters, and my mother.
Sister #3 is a two-time divorcee. Her current husband and EXH have become fast best buddies. Her EXH even spends the nights at their house when he is in town on business trip. That, for me, still weirds me out. But it works for them.
Our mother embraces all of this complicated web of exes and whatnot with complete unconditional acceptance.
Contrast this with my stepmother's family.
When my own father had his own affair with his OW, my stepmother's father (my grandfather) was an old school Navy guy who was a construction foreman pretty much banished him. The consequent fall out of all of this on me at the age of 11 was that he pretty much banned me as well by association with my own father. What does that tell you? I was a very dis-empowered 11 year old in a pain and confusion having my family shut me out just because they were angry with my father for his affairs.
It took 20 years before I was able to reconnect with my family again. When I told my stepmom (my other Mom) that I wanted to see my grandmother. Boy, boy...my stepmom's fears were dredged up and tried to disuade me from this path because SHE wanted to protect me from further pain. I told her, "It is not for you to decide. I am now an adult and I want to see my grandmother." From that point and on, I was able to reconnect and reform my bonds with that side of the family.
Do you see the two vastly different models here?
My model is based on my mother's side with my sisters. This is why I am embarking on the reconnection with Ms. Wonka. They've verbally supported me in the effort and are really rooting for me. They love Ms. Wonka. This is unconditional love in action. This is how I am wired and this is our family value that has been passed on to the next generation.
The reconnection with my other family was only made possible after my grandfather died. A shame. I loved him deeply. Last Labor Day weekend, I went with my aunt to visit his gravesite (this was a first for me) to put on flowers etc. Talk about emotional moment for me! Never had any type of closure with my grandfather...last time I saw him was at the age of 11 when my world was ripped apart with my parent's D. A damned shame.
How does Cass feel about all this?
Wonka
Can I show you something? Skip over and don’t read if you do not want to.
This is where our sitches differ.
Yes I agree. Once again, I could be wrong – I only ask that you look really inside. Whatever you find – don’t post. It is for you.
For the record – I have decided to write a play. It is called…”Eric plays Ms Wonka’s current partner”. I’m staring… No autograph please (this is a little humor)
Okay her I go as Ms Wonka’s current partner…
Take 1 – Opening scene….. It starts with Ms Wonka partner talking to a friend. (BTW, when I refer to “me” or “I”, I’m referring to Ms Wonka partner.
Yes friend I was told by Ms Wonka not to worry about it. That her friend lived far away. So I trusted ms Wonka and now I learned that….
She was at a very vulnerable point in her life when the OW made the moves on her from 1,200 miles away.
The friend responds….”really I cannot believe Ms. Wonka would do that too you.” My response “Yep Ms Wonka did. I still am in love with Ms Wonka I know it is not her it is the….”
makes the OW the broken one
I continue to respond to the friend…..
To be perfectly honest, even before all the crazy stuff happened, I never really interacted with the OW
I was polite and cordial to her. That was the extent of my interactions with her.
She was friends with Ms. Wonka. a while ago but they had a falling out and then she wanted to reconcile with Ms Wonka – and now Ms Wonka has ended our M
Okay my play is over. My point is look at it from Ms Wonka partner perspective. How will she feel?
Like many spouses here, we all are not comfy with the notion of interacting with the OMM or OWW.
Agreed but she is no longer the OP? She is Ms Wonka spouse.
What if Ms Wonka said…..hey I love you. I am leaving my partner. Doesn’t that make you all of a sudden the OP?
Like Ellie's example, she has no problem with her EXH's new wife because she was not the OW that broke up their marriage. Do you see where I am coming from?
Yes I see where you are coming from. As you pointed out every sitch is a little different. Was it the OW that broke up your M OR was it a combination of OW and YOUR MLC?
Again, you just don't know how life will unfold.
Ya know my XW said this EXACT thing to me. Right before you blew everything to hell. IMO, it is a justifying statement. It is being used to justify your actions.
I would like to refer to what Job posted in my earlier thread:
Wonka,
You never know what the future may hold. I've seen many MLC breakups and remarriages take place and lo and behold, many years later the original spouses are back together and happy as can be...so, Mrs. Wonka may have remarried...but that doesn't mean a thing in today's society when it comes to dealing w/MLC.
As I say the devil is always in the details……
In the example or comment Job made – did the LBS spouse approach the EX spouse while they were married or did the two people who where SINGLE at the time, rekindle the love?
Does this mean that they didn't respect their spouses' marriages to other people? Does that mean that this person "made the moves" on their original spouses? Who are you to judge them by moralizing "love" between two people who made their free-will choice to remarry each other? Who gets to decide this?
I am not judging them. On the contrary, I am providing a different perspective. The perspective of the LBS.
Who are you to judge them by moralizing "love" between two people
When I met my XW, boyfriend’s XW (he left her for my w)…interesting enough….this is what he said to his wife. Another justification.
I am not saying that you cannot be friends with Ms Wonka. I do believe that YOU need to include Ms Wonka partner somehow. If for NO OTHER reason than…. How did you feel when someone else got involved emotionally with your partner.
Can Ms Wonka partner still be Ms Wonka’s friend? Can she work on healing with JUST Ms Wonda?
Wonka – I’ve done my best to try to show you a different perspective. I suspect you feel you have done the same, to show me your perspective. Ultimately this is your life and you know the players much better than I do. So I leave this as we can agree to disagree.
Oh…btw,
I AM Ms. Wonka’s Hair dresser 
There seems to be a certain "I am the one that went through MLC, so I am correct" . I see very little give in your posts. No realization that somebody, other than you, could possibly be correct about something.
Really? I don't think it is how I've come in my posts about the MLC experience. As you would note, I have stressed that there's been a general commonalities across the MLC spectrum, but each MLCer is different. People have shared their experiences with their MLCer that are helpful in exchanging information about this "disease" here. I have given a quite bit around here. To suggest that I give very little is way off base and insulting. Go back and re-read my threads & other threads here in MLC.
I didn't say that you didn't give. And your time is much appreciated by many. The context is, that you have very little give...as in flexibility toward other people's point of view, and how you and your words are perceived to the outside world.
THAT kind of "give"
I apologize for not wording it better....
Wonka, I HAVE read your threads. I read the first 15 that you had before your 4 year hiatus. I read the lone thread in 2010. then the remaining 8 after that 3 year break. There is very little that I haven't read from the MLC boards in the past (almost) 7 years.
When I first started reading here, the name Wonka was raised with a reverence, because YOU went through a MLC. And YOU had answers that everyone of us has sought out at one point in time.
Hell, I learned a LOT from your threads about the internal clock movements of MLC.
To ASSume that I hadn't......well
With that, you are completely missing the point that Cat made about posting the emails.
A betrayal is a betrayal.
You stole a lollipop , I stole a car. Any difference there ? Aren't they both still stealing ?
I lied about how old I am, you lied about your shoe size(or whatever). They are BOTH still a lie, no matter how innocent, or how deadly they are.
A betrayal, is still a betrayal.
You all seem want to make it very black and white here. One has to take the "breaching of confidence" in context. You feel this way and I feel differently. That is okay. We can have 1,000 people view the Mona Lisa and all will have different views of the painting. Does that mean all of them are wrong?
To me, this IS very black and white. I assume that we live in the same world, where all we have is our integrity and our words that separate us from each other.
When you speak of the
Mona Lisa , and I offer an opinion of her in all of her glory. I offer her nothing outwardly, because it would mean very little to her to offer her that. I am isolated in my thoughts of her. Nobody else is involved. There is no reciprocation with her opinion of me. It is a cut and dry experience. THAT is what an opinion is....a person's particular view on a said object, thing, or subject.
I respect that you see no harm in what normal main stream society has led us to believe to be known as hypocrisy. That is your belief. As long as you are willing to accept that my view is as equal and opposite of yours.
My belief is that you cannot expect someone to hold YOUR values on something that you do not value yourself.
Doesn't make me correct, doesn't make you incorrect. Doesn't make you correct, doesn't make me incorrect.
I respect that we differ, and I understand how your views differ from mine.
You laid a boundary that you are not willing to follow yourself.
I can certainly follow this boundary by withdrawing from Divorce Busting site and never post ever again. How would this be helpful to others here who struggle with the MLCer spouse in not seeing how this MLCer has progressed in her own journey from the other side? This is my gift here and FREELY given without any expectation.
Well, that certainly is your perogative....
I think it is the gift that every one of us gives, that is further along in this journey. And it is kind of insulting that you made it sound as if you are the only one that gives that freely.
I thank you for sharing your story.
I only post from MY perspective.
If you want to continue this with a mutual respect, I will do that.
It is okay for you to do this but not okay give me the same opportunity here? Hmmmm...this doesn't come across as respecting my POV and perspectives here.
I would appreciate it, if in the future, that you would not twist my words up, to mean what they weren't intended to mean.
The FULL quote was this.....
And please don't feel the need to "set me straight", talk down to me, or patronize me about anything that I have posted to you. If you want to continue this with a mutual respect, I will do that.
I only post from MY perspective. MLC has changed my life, and I have seen it as a child, and as an adult. It has forged the person that I am today. Not from anger, from understanding.
Simply stating a boundary with our communication. I'm not any better or worse than you are.
I am simply stating that IF YOU CHOOSE to talk down to me, I will be done with this.
I think that the disrespect of your feelings, may be lost in what you chose to respond to.
There are things to be offered by every one of us involved in these past few days of discussion. And I FEEL as if we are all missing that chance....
Nobody is against you at all.
When my own father had his own affair with his OW, my stepmother's father (my grandfather) was an old school Navy guy who was a construction foreman pretty much banished him. The consequent fall out of all of this on me at the age of 11 was that he pretty much banned me as well by association with my own father. What does that tell you? I was a very dis-empowered 11 year old in a pain and confusion having my family shut me out just because they were angry with my father for his affairs.
It took 20 years before I was able to reconnect with my family again. When I told my stepmom (my other Mom) that I wanted to see my grandmother. Boy, boy...my stepmom's fears were dredged up and tried to disuade me from this path because SHE wanted to protect me from further pain. I told her, "It is not for you to decide. I am now an adult and I want to see my grandmother." From that point and on, I was able to reconnect and reform my bonds with that side of the family.
Do you see the two vastly different models here?
My model is based on my mother's side with my sisters. This is why I am embarking on the reconnection with Ms. Wonka. They've verbally supported me in the effort and are really rooting for me. They love Ms. Wonka. This is unconditional love in action. This is how I am wired and this is our family value that has been passed on to the next generation.
Thank you for sharing that. That is the first REAL response that I have read from you, in which you answer the question of WHY you seek this from Ms Wonka.
Why the F didn't you just say this from the beginning ??
Geesh
Hey folks...
This is a good, robust, and spirited discussion that involves ALL valid POVs and perspectives.
Phew! It's a Friday...let's all go out for some beer and shoot the wind around the pool table.
Mach,
Why the F didn't you just say this from the beginning ??
Because the "F" did not come up until just a moment ago in response to Eric's post. If my steam of consciousness were organized in a strictly linear fashion, then sure...it would have happened at the very beginning.
Why are your knickers getting all twisted up here with me if you are not able or willing to give people allowances for this organic process on this site? I'd look at why you were upset over this, my friend. Geesh.
Wow...this is the first I've heard that people "hold" me in reverence. I hate, hate hearing the fact that some people hold me in "reverence" here...it is not who I am in RL. Please don't do this. We are brothers and sisters here in the trenches who support each other and hold each other up if one of us falls down. I am no better than anyone here.
Mach, I resent that implication that 'I am the only one giving my gifts freely.' Every poster that comes here and shares their stories are giving their gifts freely as well too. I so appreciate and enjoy hearing their stories & experiences.
From what I am hearing you here, it seems to me that if I don't necessarily agree with your POV or perspectives...then that means I'm talking you "down." This tells me that my thoughts, POV, and perspectives don't count here. Therefore you are dismissive of my perspectives. Wow.
Mutual respect means respecting each other's experiences, perspectives, and POV as they stand/are. Not as you wish them to be just because they don't fit with yours.
BTW, I KNOW that you guys are not against me. I am very comfortable with being able to have a spirited discussion with everyone here and feel that my perspectives DO count here whether you agree with them or not.
Have a great weekend everyone!!
Hey folks...
This is a good, robust, and spirited discussion that involves ALL valid POVs and perspectives.
Phew! It's a Friday...let's all go out for some beer and shoot the wind around the pool table.
Mach,
Why the F didn't you just say this from the beginning ??
Because the "F" did not come up until just a moment ago in response to Eric's post. If my steam of consciousness were organized in a strictly linear fashion, then sure...it would have happened at the very beginning.
Why are your knickers getting all twisted up here with me if you are not able or willing to give people allowances for this organic process on this site? I'd look at why you were upset over this, my friend. Geesh.
I can assure you that there are no knickers twisted here...
You didn't like my attempt at humor ???
Seems to be going around huh ?
I DO like the explanation too. I thought it was the most genuine thing I have read about it up to this point.
Wow...this is the first I've heard that people "hold" me in reverence. I hate, hate hearing the fact that some people hold me in "reverence" here...it is not who I am in RL. Please don't do this. We are brothers and sisters here in the trenches who support each other and hold each other up if one of us falls down. I am no better than anyone here.
I'm not holding you in reverence. The facts are the facts.
I have read countless threads, where the poster asked if anyone posting here, had been through a MLC.
And your name came up on 90% of those threads...
Just the way it is. That seems to be your legacy during your absences. That isn't your fault, nor mine. Not even the poster that asked the question.
Newer people here are always reaching for what they feel is un-obtainable. They want answers to questions, and your threads did/do provide the insight that they are seeking.
THAT cannot be changed. And it has slowed since you have been back, because you are again available for your insight.
Mach, I resent that implication that 'I am the only one giving my gifts freely.' Every poster that comes here and shares their stories are giving their gifts freely as well too. I so appreciate and enjoy hearing their stories & experiences.
As do I.
Every person here has something to offer. Every one is an important part of each other person's journey through here.
I STILL learn from every post that I read.
And as they say here in MLC land....
If something that I said to you stung ?....maybe you should look at that, and find out why it stung...
From what I am hearing you here, it seems to me that if I don't necessarily agree with your POV or perspectives...then that means I'm talking you "down." This tells me that my thoughts, POV, and perspectives don't count here. Therefore you are dismissive of my perspectives. Wow.
No, I am very open to other perspectives...always.
My strife is when I feel that my perspective is entirely dismissed.
I don't have to be right or wrong, yet I do have a voice that likes to be heard.
Same as you ....
I supported your perspective, and I think that my words above reflect that.
The "talking down", is the by product of patterns that I have seen, where you post that you need to set this poster, or that poster "straight".
Mutual respect means respecting each other's experiences, perspectives, and POV as they stand/are. Not as you wish them to be just because they don't fit with yours.
You are correct. I'm not trying to change your mind..
Only to see another perspective, which you have dismissed on many occasions....
So who is the Pot, and who is the Kettle here ??
I would like to be the Kettle today....
BTW, I KNOW that you guys are not against me. I am very comfortable with being able to have a spirited discussion with everyone here and feel that my perspectives DO count here whether you agree with them or not.
Have a great weekend everyone!!
Your perspective does count...
Always has..