1st -
Completely heartbroken by husband's MLC 2nd -
Rinse, repeat, replay 3rd -
Here we go loopty loo. Here we go loopty li. 4th -
Crazy little thing called MLC Wow, five threads already. Thank you so much to all of you who have been following and helping me along this journey. It's nice to know that there are so many who care and to have a place I can talk about what is really going on. You're part of the inner circle. No one else in my life knows much of anything, beyond H left and his having a hard time and dealing with depression.
H moved back in this morning, as planned. He has thanked me for letting him move in until he can find something, as finding a new place was really stressing him out. There has been no discussion of timeline. He said he was planning to sleep on the couch, but I had our friends setup his bed in a room downstairs. I don't want to go through another awkward transition of him moving from couch to his own bed, because he "isn't able" to find something. I would not be surprised if he still slept upstairs on the couch, but we will see. Now he has options, so we don't have to talk about it.
I think he is here to stay for awhile, or until it's too uncomfortable. So that would depend a lot on me I suppose. His friends who helped him move said that he made no mention of how long this was for. I figured if he was planning on leaving soon, he would tell them he would need help again in the next week or month, but who knows. I think in his mind this is temporary, but he is too depressed/stressed to make any "big" decisions right now. To me it's pretty simple. Look at apartments close to work, close to the boys, and pick one. I can understand that is not how he functions right now. Maybe he realizes that doing so might be the end of us, and he's not ready to make that kind of leap, but who knows. That may be way too complex for his current state of mind. Besides, he doesn't want me, remember!?
He has been hanging around here all day. He put all of his stuff away where it goes. I was expecting he would just want to put all of it downstairs, all packed up, ready to go. But nope. He has hung his clothes up in the master closet. He has put his toiletries in the master bathroom. (Not the kids bath or guest bath as I might have thought.)
He fell asleep on the couch for about 3 hours. I put away the rest of the stuff he just left out on the counter and started his laundry. I think he brought back almost all of his clothes in the dirty clothes hamper. Not too many clean. I don't think he has done it in maybe three weeks or more, although that was always his excuse as to why he needed to get back to his place, to do his laundry. I took off shopping once he was awake and I put S2 down for a nap. (I take S0 with me everywhere.) I think H has been on that couch now for 6 hours.
Going out to dinner with my parents tonight and invited H to come along, but he said he would just stay in. I said no problem. I don't want to be rude/awkward by not inviting him, but I was fine either way.
So the thoughts of what he is hiding is still on my mind, making me uncomfortable. I don't want to find something out 9 months from now. I don't want OW to have involvement in a D either. He hasn't done anything with any OW for a week. Nothing makes logical sense. Why would it?
It can't be racking up debt. I have access to and control all finances and credit reports/alerts. He doesn't want to have anything to do with finances, as much as I want to involve him. He wants his own CC and bank account, but hasn't done that either. If he got any kind of credit, I would know.
Can't be drugs. I see him enough that I would be able to know, plus not sure how he'd get the money for it. We don't use cash. He doesn't even drink, and I know he has been in settings where people are, and have tried to get him to, and he doesn't. So all I can think is pregnancy/std/nothing and he is exaggerating/he has already told me like he said, that it's having sex with ow1. He would consider any kind of a inappropriate relationship an affair (at least the old him would.)
Why does he think it's so much better to not talk about things and have to live with them? I would so rather tell someone and get it out in the open. I guess that's just me. I have always told him everything, and now it's hard to keep my mouth shut. The on going power of STFU! Hopefully it will work its magic sooner, rather than later.
I keep asking myself, is this right? Is this what is supposed to be happening? I mean of course it is, and of course it's not. Just whatever will keep me on my toes, right? I feel like I am undergoing the test of my life. Maybe this is one of my finals to determine the new and lasting me.
Two nights down. H seems pretty happy, far change from how he was a week ago. He hasn't spent anytime looking for an apartment, that I know of. He spent yesterday morning in his underwear. Kind of funny to me, when he never did that when he moved in to help with the new baby. He also walked around in a towel in front of me. He uses the master bathroom for showering and getting ready. When I told the boys to get ready for Church, he helped get them ready, and we all went together as a family. I asked him questions about simple things and followed what he wanted to do. This is a big change. In our previous life he would always ask me everything, every little thing, like what cereal to give the kids, what socks to wear. If he asks me anything like that now I just tell him either is great or whatever he wants. He doesn't ask me much anymore.
We made dinner together too. I grilled some tuna and tilapia on the bbq, cut up a watermelon, and he made a green salad and pasta. He suggested the pasta, and took care of everything. I did things he would normally do, like set the table and turning on the grill. He said things to the boys like, we were eating together as a family, and they needed to stay at the table until we were all done. He has said the term "together as a family" quite a lot. I wonder if it's natural, as that's how it would be before, and it would be unnatural to try and use a different phrase. He told me he had invited our good friends, another couple who lives nearby, over to play games. So we did that after dinner. He cleaned up and vacuumed while I was feeding the baby. None of this was discussed on who would do what. We just did it. Saw what needed to be done, and did it. I didn't ask him to do anything. If I needed something needed to be done, I would do it myself.
The older two boys have slept downstairs with him both nights. He wanted to know if that was okay and I said as long as he was fine with it, I was.
So we are good friends, living as roommates (where one feels comfortable enough to walk around in their underwear) and no physical contact, no questions of any kind, no pressure. We talk a lot about things of no importance, music, books, movies, work.
And here is the thing that is probably the most surprising of all, I feel happy. I've been laughing, real laughing, not these fleeting moments of happiness. I don't feel fake. I don't feel like I'm trying or manipulating. It's just natural. I have felt like before I was playing a game, I was on egg shells, I was doubting everything I was saying or doing. And now it just is. It's just me. I'm not worried about if he'll move out or if he'll stay. I think I've just let it go. It's out of my hands, and whatever will happen is going to happen.
It's nice to have another adult around to help with the kids, to talk to, to make cooking a meal worthwhile. But I know he isn't done. I doubt he is anywhere near done destroying let alone working on himself. I think this is just buying him some time to figure out what he wants--or rather time to not have to figure it out. I would be surprised if he isn't in some kind of contact with some kind of OW, but nothing I can do about it, so not going to speculate. I do have that nagging feeling still that something is going to come up, but trying to let that go and deal with it when and if it does.
I've been reading and trying to follow the 37 rules. Any tips and insights always help.
Raine,
I would suggest that you go back and read all of HRM's threads. She received a lot of wonderful advice and it appears to have paid off.
Keep your expectations at zero at all times.
Hope you and you the children are doing well. How's the baby?
Thanks snodderly! I read quite a bit of her threads before when T^2 mentioned her, but that was at such a different time in what was going on with me. I dug back into her threads today at your suggestion. The one thing that sticks out is how much I relate to the feelings and emotions of the non MLC spouse. I think we focus a lot on how scripted the MLCers are, yet it's nice for me to be able to realize, I'm not alone, and it's okay to feel this way.
The little man is doing brilliant. They change so much and so fast. He is smiling and starting to laugh. He is such an easy going baby. The other boys just adore him and want to hold him. Even S2 is great with him. No jealousy so far. S8 has been a huge help with his younger brothers.
Update:
Tonight H didn't get home from work until much later than normal. In the before, I would call him and find out when he was leaving and then be annoyed if he was late and got tied up at work. This would frustrate him, trying to estimate a time, and frustrate me if i was making dinner. I've been in a cooking mood and made chicken parm tonight. I hadn't talked to H since he left for work. H walked in after we were done eating and getting ready to go to the park. I pointed out what was for dinner and he helped himself. He talked to me about normal chitchat and I was just cheerful self. No big deal. By the time we were ready to go, H was done and came with. I didn't invite him or say anything, he just followed. He talked to me on the way over and the whole time at the park. Once home, We watched TV together and then went out separate ways. He has jumped right in with the parenting too, telling the boys when it was time to leave, go to bed, etc.
I overheard S6 say to H: "I want you to stay here today." H said, "I am staying here today." S6:"no I want you to stay here all the days." Good thing I was in a different room cause had a hard time holding back the tears. H told him he would be here for at least 20 days, he promised at least that. So, I guess I now know a tentative timeline. I don't know the significance of 20 days other than it's about three weeks total.
Raine,
You are not alone and what you have been going through and continue to go through is very difficult and especially more so w/an infant in the mix. I'm glad you went back and read some of the threads. There is a lot of good information in them and hopefully some of the information provided comfort to you.
I'm sure your little man is growing by leaps and bounds. S2 and S8 sound like a great boys and are "mommy's helpers". It's always nice when the older boys can help out a bit and it also takes away from some of the tension and jealousy that can occur if they aren't involved w/mommy and the newborn.
As for your h, continue doing what you've been doing. He sounds like he's in a very deep fog and just going w/the flow for now. As for the twenty days, that could be a timeline in his head and you know what? He may not go anywhere after twenty days. He could very well come up w/another excuse to stay at home. Besides, if he was definitely going to be a short term visitor, I do not think he would have unpacked and put his stuff away like he did. He would have left his stuff in the boxes, etc. I wouldn't fret too much w/his timeline for now. Let's see how things go.
Keep the focus on you and your boys. The more freedom he has at home right now, the more likely he will remain in the home.
Please take care of yourself.
I completely agree with you snodderly. I think the 20 days was bare minimum in his mind. He told someone else a few months. When asked if it was uncomfortable, he said no. My guess is he will be here until I kick him out or I start infringing on his freedom, any pressure, asking him questions, etc. All the stuff I would have done before. He hasn't done anything yet, but I figure the time is coming. I HATE the sneakiness and lies. I think that is such a huge part of the thrill. I want to tell him go do what you want. I'm not your mom. I assume that's just something that is going to have to take time for him to realize by my actions. Not sure how I could bring that one up.
I know he has a really hard time lying to me, so he needs to be able to do what he wants without feeling I'm controlling him and getting in his business. He would skip a day of work to be with someone, just so he doesn't have to tell me he is going to go do something and then do something/someone else (ha!)
He's still so soaked in replay, but he likes me a lot. How am I supposed to play that? Just be his friend, not pursue or make any plans for us, but go along with what he sets up? I can do just about anything temporarily, but at some point, I'm going to be done with it all.
Funny how this should have been a step towards us, and maybe it is, but he is no where near the edge of his fog. He is much happier than he was a week ago (that was scary) but it may have helped him in the long run to leave him on the street. Likely would have ended any possible chance of anything between him and I, which could result in lingering questions and regrets from me. So eh, what can I do? Just had to go with my heart, and there wasn't any doubts there. I do feel he is better here, and they always say your marriage has a better chance if he stays in the home. I just have a possible(definite) cake eating situation going on. I think it's a way of keeping me on the fence a bit longer, prolonging any action or decision making, and allows him to be around the kids and me on a friendship level.
He came up to the room three times last night after I had gone to bed, in underwear, to ask/answer questions. We were texting. So funny to me. We are in the same house, separate rooms, texting each other and joking back and forth for an hour. It's just so incredibly weird! I feel like we are "married" again. Everything is the same, except me (new name, Miss180) and no physical/relationship stuff. He wants OW for the physical relationship, but he wants me as his best friend. He doesn't seem to have much of an emotional tie to them whatsoever.
He invited a old friend of his over last night to chat and hang out. This friend has no idea of sitch, like almost everyone. That has probably been a very good thing to keep it so quiet. No awkward situations. His friend told me how great I was looking, and told H I was way ahead of him now. Gotta love that!
So for me, I've been a bit stressed with work and how things are going to play out there. I'm feeling really good about it though. Changes are happening, and I'm feeling really positive about it. Likely this is going to give me the chance to work 100% remote. I am loving the idea of not being tied down. Still working out the details though, so I don't want to get ahead of myself. I have a lot of options I'm looking at. I just want to keep things simple right now though. I don't want to be building up something to then start working on a D. So trying to live my life, but sometimes that's hard to do when I need to be in self preservation mode too. Ce la vie.
hey hi-
just checking in to register my support and fellow-feeling here. it's awful isn't it? the not talking and us all "stfu" all the time. like you- i've always been an honest and up-front guy. probably like me- that what he liked about you (in the beginning) . now, it would appear the more secrative he feels he HAS TO BE , the less he wants to hear one word about what i feel. after all- he's the one inflicting the pain. ifyou can't stand to hear about it- well, what? don't do it? get the heck out of here? idk-
it's insane. i just had to laugh at your stfu comment. cadet or tsq or someone introduced me to notion- it's good i guess to change our m.o. it's hell to be "false" all the time, having strategy and trying to act like someone i am not.
me- all about honesty and being straight.
oh well. one of these days, months, etc. i'll figure out if this h is worth thelove i could have continued to give- worth getting to know again- worth allllllll THIS.... IT'S BEEN hell- it isn't over and he is still in his r w/ow-
$ucks- who know what future holds. good thing we can have each other to support us and learn from- who can hold this stuff in or keep it secret? i'm askin ya??? i'd explode,
also good - the occasional surprise laugh at something someone says that hits home- we're quite a group huh?
lbs of america
and all we have to do is hang on just one more day - then one more day - blah blah blah...
xxoo
Nero thanks for your post. Just remember, in 4.5 years we are going to be at peace and full of joy, no matter what, right? I think I'm going to get there a bit faster. I want to get there faster. I'm ready now.
I'm enjoying each new stage with these little men I've been blessed to have. Nothing keeps me down for long, because of them. S8 and S6 will both randomly ask me for hugs. How sweet that is. I've been making a practice of not letting go, until they let go, which is always longer than when I would have. S2 is so mischievous and does things, and them looks so surprised and innocent when he gets in trouble. I never had to "baby proof" until he came along. They each have their own unique personalities.
Everything just feels peaceful right now. Everything is falling into place. I'm taking a cut at work, and working 100% remote. That has always been a stress for me, trying to balance work and time with the kids. I know I would never wake up one day and regret that I missed out on anything in my career, but I would have massive regrets if I missed out on time with the boys. I was able to balance that really well for years, having work conform to me, but my role has just expanded to the point it was time to make a drastic change in one direction or the other. I've made the right choice. It wasn't difficult. I already knew.
Things are the same with H. He's not bringing up anything and neither am I. He's taking nights with his friends and so am I. One night before he left he told the boys when they had to be on bed and a few other parenting things. I smiled and nodded, but inside that was seriously surprising and funny, because he has NEVER been the parent in charge. This is a big change for him and so unexpected, considering his moving in as if he was a guest. But this is a very good thing in my mind. He is taking charge. He is being a disciplinarian and actual father to the boys. The way he is acting toward them is a new man. Not his old self. Not the teenager MLCer either. Interesting. No comment or anything from me. I'm letting him lead and supporting him. But seeing some glimpses of a persona he may become is comforting. There may be a light at the end of this tunnel.
Some replay activities happening, with him being sneaky and hiding of it. Lots of questions unanswered. Giving him plenty of space. But for me, it's sure nice to have some help. They boys love having him here. Time will come for me, I know that. But for now, I can handle this. I can handle not focusing on a relationship. I want the boys to have time with and to bond with their dad. It's a blessing that this is even possible, that this is happening right now for whatever time it happens.
One week down. Check!
Hi Raine ~
I was thinking of you and the latest developments in your situation. I'm sure having your H back home will be good in some ways, bad in others.
The one thing I wanted to say is that I do think this will be helpful for your H to develop a loving and close rapport again with the kids, hopefully guiding him back to reconnect with them.
I have kept that in my mind this whole time with my H - that no matter what, he will always be the children's father. I know he loves them. I want them to be close.
Ultimately, I want us to be close as a family. Not sure if that will happen or not.
Our kids are awesome, aren't they? I am thankful for them every single day. I don't know how I would make it through without them. They seem to be my lighthouse
Always hoping that good things will come your way soon. But I have my fingers out and ready if they don't
hey hi-
lucky you:
I'm enjoying each new stage with these little men I've been blessed to have. Nothing keeps me down for long,
you are so right to tap into that pleasure and it sure is true- it will seem like the blink of an eye and they'll be teenagers - then have kids of their own. I sit for my neices babies and feel it- and it's just like sitting for her mother 40 years ago - the memories run into each other- seems like it was a few days ago-
they do grow so fast and it is such a wonderful "show" watching them at each new stage. smart smart you to treasure every single moment.
so also - wow and good luck with your h stepping up and being a dad. kids sure need it- my neices all grew up without father around- even tho they'e girls- it's a major factor in shaping the women they become & their attitudes & values.. my nj neice - 14 now is struggling with her dad's alcoholism(geeez ) and honestly- i think he is haveing a mlc - no kidding. the dope keeps calling her for r advice- she's never even had a boyfriend & it's freaking her out- poor kid. it's hard to be a kid these days.
a father is important in life to have - my dad died when i was 18 - and i still feel shortchanged when i see those thanksgiving commercials or hallmark for father's day- wah wah.
anyway- sending good vibes to you about this- who knows rite??? best of luck -
xxoo
Hiya T & nero! Thanks for your posts. I agree. There are some things that are much more important to me than the marriage. Right now H is loving having all the time with the boys, and so are they. I imagine each day it will get harder and harder for him to leave, but at the same time, I'm not willing to carry on like this on forever.
Each day I feel like I get stronger. It's far more difficult to feel like I always need to be on point; for the most part it's very natural. I just don't know how he will react to things, so I need to always have expectations at zero, which is hard to do. There have been things I've noticed or things he has said, which are a total kick to the gut, and I have just had to roll with it, ignore it, and brush it off. Like seeing OW’s name or evidence of time spent together. It makes me have this shock feeling of being dunked in cold water, followed by nausea.
I'm getting a few more clues into things, but H is keeping a lot close to the chest. I have gone from the "fear the worse" mode to keying in on what is actual reality. I know I've done this a few times, like thinking H started having random encounters with couples, when actually it was OW1 moved. I posted before worried that he had some big thing with OW1, like a dr appt, pregnancy, abortion (and based on what he was saying, it was easy to jump to that) but I'm pretty sure now what that was a break up, a big one. He couldn't get his mind off of "it" and seems like the breakup is likely what “it” was. I'm guessing that was the moment he let her know he was moving back in. Although he may have made a lot of excuses to her for the reason why, perhaps this was the final writing on the wall. He has said a couple of things in passing to me that makes me assume he is talking about her, and that she thinks he is a d1ck. I don't ask questions and just pretend he could be talking about anyone. She has certainly put up with a lot. I think she would have to be the most desperate woman in the world to take him back now after all the lies and hiding of things (yikes, did I just say something projecting about me??) He has not treated any of them well at all. Kind of sad when I think he has treated me better than any of the rest. At least he hasn't tried to use me and is honest with me when I ask. I don't ask though. I'm trying to let it be on his timeline. I wonder if my asking if he spent time with OW1, and that's why he skipped out on his friend's party, was the 1st catalyst for why we are where we are now. Maybe that will be a good thing in the end, but who knows. Maybe my discovery of more information on her only killed it temporarily like it did the first time. Unlike the first time though, I didn’t demand he end it. I just walked away. Here is my version of cause and effect for where we are now:
1st Catalyst: Ask if saw OW1 -> answered yes -> I went dark -> he came over within 24 hours of dark, wanting to be with me, hug me, etc. Continued coming over the entire week, showing up unexpectedly in places he knew I would be.
2nd Catalyst: He needs to move, wants to get his own place -> I say D for the first time -> he back peddles, that getting his own place is not by choice -> I hold firm, as doesn't matter about own place, as he has confessed about OW -> he hit “talking about suicide” depression -> can't (won't) find a place, stops spending time with the boys -> I let him move back in.
The only mention of timelines for him stay in the house has been said to other people, not me. He has once said we need to figure out finances when I was asking him for advice on my job change and that I would take a significant pay cut. That’s the only discussion that has hinged on us going separate ways.
So there you have it folks: My life in a beaker. Just waiting for the next element to be added that may send the whole mixture exploding over the top, or perhaps may be just what is needed to start heading in a new, better, and lasting direction.
H's depression is back today with a vengeance. It seemed to just switch on. He stayed home for a few hours with the boys while I went to an appointment. Came back and he was asleep, kneeling in front of the couch with his head on the couch. Hard to wake him. He came home from work, made himself and older boys something to eat, then went to and stayed in bed, not saying much of anything to me. He was super short with the boys for dinner, but they hung out with him watching tv.
I don't know how best to deal with it. I just let him be and gave him space and let the boys do what they wanted to when it came to him. He's been sending me different game requests through the phone all night, which I played with him.
Raine,
I know it's frustrating to see your h this way, but right now, you are doing the right thing by just allowing him him space to do whatever. He appears to be comfortable w/the boys being around him, which leads me to think that he does want some company when he's home.
Hi Raine!
I couldn't sleep in the middle of the night last night around 2 am and so read some of your recent posts. Then I went back to sleep and dreamed I saw your H's OW1 on FB! Lol!
How is the working remote going? That's a major decision and one that keeps you busy I'm sure, but hopefully in a good way.
That's so interesting your H fell into such a deep sleep in such a strange position. I'm also glad that the big "thing" impending wasn't something more serious than a breakup with OW1.
I, too, was always fearing and imagining the worst. How can we not? It's human nature and our spouses aren't going to tell us everything.
I have read on this forum or elsewhere that some spouses do allow questions later. Some things I am still wondering about but then....do we really want to know? Maybe not.
Thank you so much for posting on my sitch. I always appreciate it!
Hoping you have a great day,
rH
Hi Raine,
I agree with Snodderly, from my experience, you just have to let them do whatever they need to, hard as it is to watch and NOT do something to help...though in my sitch, when W was spewing and approaching emotional abuse to one of the kids, I did have to take him out for a while and leave her alone to do whatever, but not when it affected (unfairly) an innocent other (so glad THOSE days have passed)...just something to keep in the back of your mind maybe.
You do inspire me...
T^2
Thanks guys! That makes me feel better about how I'm handling it. I have doubts that creep in, based on things he has said. A few months ago he said that he just needs someone to step in and make him get outside, forget everything, and pull him out of his funk. He said he doesn't have anyone here that could do that. My thought is, I could be that person, but HE needs to be THAT person. He needs to rely on himself to get himself out of the funk.
AJ said some really interesting stuff on Bea's thread about burying feelings and that they will always come back. H continues to try to do this. He continues to bury feelings alive and continues to be in pain, rather than deal with them. It's insanity. He seems to have a hard time being around me when he is like this. Whether that is he blames me for things still or he feels bad for the pain he has caused me, or something else entirely. I just get the sense he doesn't want me around, but the boys really lift his spirits.
He has said that he does not deserve help from me and has no right to bother me with any of this after all he has done. As he has said and as others who have posted on my threads have thought, it seems like he does want to tell me, but he can't right now. My thought is he can't tell me, because he isn't done yet. He can't tell me all he has done until he knows he will never do it again.
I was really impressed with how S8 handled H. S8 was his happy self. "Okay Dad. No problem!" "Sure thing!" "That sounds good!" I could see H softening because of that. Nothing was going to rattle S8. I didn't involve myself at all. I like what you said T. I will just need to keep an eye on it and take S8/S6 aside or away if needs be. S8 just has this golden personality that people talk about all the time, about how unique, pure, and kindhearted he is. When he was 5 he told someone, "I don't know why, but the sun just follows me." So true!
Some mind-reading and curiosities:
It is fascinating to me that H would be willing to completely end his ties to OW1 to move back home, without a relationship or desire to work on a relationship with me. It was like he was willing to give up anything just so I don't divorce him right now. He's still hiding things from me too, being sneaky. That is crazy to me as well. Why would he even care? Why does he care so much about what I think of him? After all this time, he still doesn't know what he wants. He doesn't want me right now, but maybe later? And maybe it's as simple as he still cares about me on some level and doesn't want my feelings to get hurt by the betrayals. It may also be that he needs and wants to be around the kids more. I have to think that being here for two weeks and then leaving again and not seeing them very often had to be difficult, even for someone in such a self-absorbed, selfish state.
rH that is hilarious about the dream. I'm sorry she invaded your personal space too!
Working remote has been a real blessing that I'm even allowed to do this. I have cut down hours significantly, so it's far less stressful too. I feel like things that are out of my control, are just miraculously taken care of. So many things have just fall into place, without effort on my part. I am grateful for that.
Some more updates from the last weekend:
OW4 is an eager puppy, and I think the last one still holding on. He may continue to use her. He has brushed her off before, but hasn't completely dropped the rope to her. I think she wants to try to "fix" him. Now that he has lost everyone else, I think it may be hard for him to drop this last one, where he has been very clear to her there is no commitment, he is messed up, and it's purely physical.
We do quite a lot as a family, considering the circumstances. We went to a festival together over the weekend. H posted pics of himself and the boys only to FB. My arm made an appearance. Went to Church together and made dinner together. After Church he told me how great one of my friends looked and he told her so. A little while later I asked him if he liked my dress too, as it was a new one, and he said he did a lot. He had noticed it this morning and was going to say so. I don't think he is really thinking of me in that way, or else he is hiding it.
We talked a lot over the weekend. He went out Friday night with the guys and then called me at 2am on the way back to tell me all about it. He talked the entire time until he said, "well I'm home. Cya tomorrow," and hung up. He is walking around in underwear still. He doesn't do much around the house. I will be gone for hours and come back and he hasn't done anything, except lay around, watch tv, or read. I sometimes ask him to do things, but for the most part I just take care of it. He tells other people living at home is fine for now and that he keeps to himself and stays downstairs. That didn't really happen until yesterday when the depression seemed to hit hard.
Kids are very excited he is around and are always eager to be with him. I am quite concerned about how hard this will be on them if he decides to move out again.
Another thought: I don't think H wants the burden of a relationship with anyone. He wants the milk and nothing else. I think that's why he started cutting ties with all of them, and maybe even moving home had the bonus of being able to end it easily with OW1. OW4 was getting into relationship mode, but now that it appears she is okay with physical only, he is back to okay with her. Staying married to me, being here, gives him some power with women about them keeping their mouth shut and sneaking around. Easy for him to say no to things. He couldnt play the field like this as a true single and have them expect dinner and a movie or them posting and tagging him on FB. So very teenager/early college days.
S8's counsellor said that H would be fascinating to psycoanalyze. He said depression is there for sure, but that this is so far beyond depression and has so many confusing components. C said that we are likely confused by him, because he himself is confused and doesn't know what he wants.
Sometimes I wish I dropped the rope a year ago. It's now been a year since H and I talked about something being wrong and him needing counseling. 11 months since bomb drop. Such a short period of time for what this is and for the span of my life. But when it's there, every day, no matter how much I focus on other things, it feels like a lifetime.
H had a convo with someone today and they told me the following:
He is shocked at where he is in his life right now
The future seems so uncertain because he takes steps forward and back
He wonders if he even wants a relationship with someone in the future
He thinks he doesn't want a relationship, just physical relations, but he needs things that go along with the relationship like companionship and someone to talk to.
He is worried about letting anyone close to him right now because he doesn't want to hurt them because he doesn't know where he is headed.
He feels like people are already expecting certain things from him and expectations of feelings when he is on the other side of this.
Hearing this made me feel really sad. Like there is no more hope. Everything sounded so uncertain except the certainty that there will be an end to "this."
Sorry he's so confused Raine. I know it is hard.
Sounds like he was thinking out loud - and one thought goes into the next, with no rhyme or reason.
I get that it feels like a lifetime.
It is sad. But that doesn't mean there isn't hope. A wise person here once told me that there is always hope.
You have been great about giving your H the space he needs. He truly seems to have no idea what he wants.
Wish I had something else to say to make you feel better. You are a strong woman and wonderful mother. No matter what, I know you will end up with a happy life.
omg Raine, I think our mlc'ers were hatched from the same pod....W has said the
same things.
I get the sadness, the hopeless, I felt it a lot, especially around the 1 year mark, but here I am bumping up against 2 years, W is still here, trying to find her way...there is always hope, and we know that things do change with the mlc'er without warning or reason.
Feeling, praying for you tonight...
T^2
Heard the same things from my H also,
Particularly the following:
He wonders if he even wants a relationship with someone in the future
He thinks he doesn't want a relationship, just physical relations, but he needs things that go along with the relationship like companionship and someone to talk to.
He is worried about letting anyone close to him right now because he doesn't want to hurt them because he doesn't know where he is headed.
My dear, there's always hope, always hope.
My H's voice is in the other room talking to S13 and I will be spending yet another night with him.
There's always hope
rH
Okay. One more day right?!? I can do one more day.
I'm glad to hear that this all sounds very familiar to you guys and to know where rH's H is and the positives going on with T's W.
It was nice to see some clarity from him, that he is shocked at what he has done to his life. Sad that it doesn't seem to be enough shock for him to change anything, or to take any action whatsoever. That is where the sadness crept in for me. Has the fog lifted...is he seeing clarity...but even in clarity he doesn't want to try to undo any of the damage? If it is clarity, it doesn't matter, because his heart has not changed. He may not want his current life, but doesn't mean he wants a life with me either.
I still think he is waiting for me to do the work for him, someone to rescue him and save him from himself. He still hasn't learned that the person who needs to rescue him is himself.
With W, I think the "no relationship, just physical" thing is a huge distancing tactic...she liked the virtual/phone world, giving her the "contact and talking", but if someone annoyed you or whatever, you could just block them and be done and on to the new. You have a "control" ("E-Z button") that you don't have in a real R.
I think her PA OM was married, so of course that is a bit "safer" from her perspective than a single guy who just might want a R or something. I have read where there is in some A's that dynamic.
Just thinking out loud and philosophizing on our aliens psychological motivations....
Has the fog lifted...is he seeing clarity...but even in clarity he doesn't want to try to undo any of the damage? If it is clarity, it doesn't matter, because his heart has not changed. He may not want his current life, but doesn't mean he wants a life with me either.
I still think he is waiting for me to do the work for him, someone to rescue him and save him from himself. He still hasn't learned that the person who needs to rescue him is himself.
Raine, this is the nail head and you GOT it hit! He is getting some clarity, but it may not last, or morph into some deep depression like you've seen...W started to see clarity around May 2012, but it has been a road to get to where she is now, and lots of depression.
And they don't want to be "wrong", so resist.
W has said, more than once, that she is scared, doesn't know how to fix it, if she can, what if she fails, is afraid of the work, of dealing with MY feelings, and the kids feelings, of hurt, betrayal, abandonment, etc. I think it's part of the process, just keep doing what you are doing, as it seems to be working as he DID return home for now...you proved you are "safe", like in my sitch, W hasn't left (way to go Raine!!). Hope that helps
You got this!
T^2
And they don't want to be "wrong", so resist.
should be "so THEY resist"...
I see that exact same thing with H too. I think after OW1 (and I can only imagine the drama that relationship has endured with so many off and on agains) it's no wonder he broke everything off with everyone. But then he started things up again, making it clear it was physical only.
What he should realize, what he should have learned from earlier dating days before marriage, is women want more than that. In fact I know he did the no-commitment, make-out with others before me, and he was surprised they pursued him when he and I were serious. I had this conversation with him 14 years ago. He should know this...they'll give into the physical with the thought that this is going to turn into more. I have no doubt they're expecting some kind of real relationship to evolve once papers are signed. I would. I just wouldn't expect there to be a half a dozen others with the same thing in mind.
Your W, being married is in a different situation than my H's brothel. Same kind of thing. She has everything with you, just wanted to feel better about herself and be desired by others.
I don't have any fears that H will leave me for any one of them.
You're right. His returning home is huge. I am realizing that more and more. This is not just a way to save some money. This is him wanting to be here. This is a redo. This is maybe how it would have been if I had known it was MLC, and about DB--if I hadn't confronted him with evidence of OW1. Maybe I would have been like TVS all along. He does feel safe with me, and he didn't feel that way 7 months ago. More safe with me than anyone else. It's just these tidbits that happen, which likely mean nothing at all in the scheme of things, but they bring in the self doubt that we are not making any positive progress.
It's hard to know that he is sharing so many things with other people. The physical isn't the biggest deal. We used to have so many private talks and disclosed our deepest fears and secrets to each other. I have a hard time thinking that I am not that person to him anymore, and he is not that person to me. But it's not like either of us have replaced that with someone else.
I don't have any fears that H will leave me for any one of them.
That is very interesting...W has said repeatedly that she'd not leave me for
another R...so...she'd leave for a
non-committed life of cyber-R's and cyber-s3x, with occasional real life hookups to get that itch scratched...?
Is your H a computer/programmer guy perchance?
Man, that makes me sad just thinking about the shallowness of it all...
We didn't break them...
Just thinking out loud again
This is not just a way to save some money.
This is an "excuse" I think, like my W's scheme of us to D, but co-inhabiting to "save money" and have our own R's...why? Are we backup plan "B", or is it that they really don't want to lose us completely, at least just yet til they figure out what they want?...idk
It's hard to know that he is sharing so many things with other people. The physical isn't the biggest deal. We used to have so many private talks and disclosed our deepest fears and secrets to each other. I have a hard time thinking that I am not that person to him anymore, and he is not that person to me. But it's not like either of us have replaced that with someone else.
I know, I feel this too...just this big "hole" in life...
That is very interesting...W has said repeatedly that she'd not leave me for another R...so...she'd leave for a non-committed life of cyber-R's and cyber-s3x, with occasional real life hookups to get that itch scratched...?
Is your H a computer/programmer guy perchance?
If he was going to, he would have by now. OW1 would have been the closest he got to a relationship with one of them, and after at least 9 months and quite possibly over a year of time, he still never made any leap towards her. When he wanted a D last August, I asked him who the OW was. He said there was no one, and he would not and was not running towards someone. So when I found out, I thought BS! But he did leave, and there was someone, just there hasn't been a actual relationship formed.
Hah nope, he isn't, although he is very attached to his electronics. I'm the computer geek--which is not a good coupled with the need to know everything.
This is an "excuse" I think, like my W's scheme of us to D, but co-inhabiting to "save money" and have our own R's...why? Are we backup plan "B", or is it that they really don't want to lose us completely, at least just yet til they figure out what they want?...idk
Yeah H did seem to perk up awhile back when R talk came up and I said that I wanted us to be a family together and he wanted to know what that would look like. He said separate rooms. I said no. He said, you mean me in the master? I said yes. I am not settling for some stay together marriage for the kids. He said he wouldn't be comfortable with that. So now look where we are! Hah! Sneaky, sneaky.
W has said, more than once, that she is scared, doesn't know how to fix it, if she can, what if she fails
Totally H too. He has said he has never had to work for anything in life. It has just landed in his lap. So not true, but his current perception. I do think he is on the lazy side and selfish, and that worries me that he will even get the motivation to try. I do seem him more inclined to throw away the best thing in his life so he doesn't have to go through the pain and the work of fixing it, in the hopes he might get something close enough later on down the line. Pretty f'd up when you throw four kids into that mix too.
I know, I feel this too...just this big "hole" in life...
So true. I miss that every day. And he has no clue I feel like that. Too self absorbed and too much self pity, assuming I'm so much better off and happier without him. Somehow he is unique in his needs.
I'm the computer geek--which is not a good coupled with the need to know everything.
Oh, I know this, I know this..LOL...one of the biggest challenges was to NOT "make use" of my skills anymore, and to let things happen as they would naturally.
In some ways it has helped me prepare better for the next kick to the gut and also helped me make sure I don't pursue him. And oddly enough, I have felt better knowing there was more than one. It's not as threatening. But it really hasn't mattered much lately. Plenty of evidence against him, but he wants to make sure me and the boys are well taken care of anyway. I guess that could always change. He is honest with me, which is kind of shocking, and that was another reason for it, to make sure I didn't think he was being honest and then get hurt all over again. It's actually made me feel some trust towards him. There really is no benefit to it now. It only serves to make me upset and jump to premature conclusions.
H seems to be a low energy MLCer. He's still doing his teenage boy nights of playing games with guys who never got married, but that seems to be about it. He is tied to his texting/FB and chatting up women, but he doesn't make any effort irl with them, at least atm.
Last night he ate dinner and went to lay in his bed to watch TV and play on his phone. I decided to put on an xbox dance game. H came out and watched me. In my previous life that would have embarrassed me to the point of stopping, but now I don't care, and just acted like he wasn't really there. After a bit he went and organized the media closet. I thought that was pretty good that he was doing something.
When one of the boys got too rough, he came over and took care of the situation and sent one S to his room, which was appropriate. I am far more laid back in the parenting area than he is now. I think it's a good thing he is being more involved as a father and a disciplinarian. He doesn't have the same patience I do, but I'm noticing it because this is such a new thing for him. The kids have not respected his authority in the past, and for sure they did not when we were S. I just hope this is something that sticks.
I'm laying low. He and I do text/chat a lot throughout the day. Jokes, music, news events, things that he has posted on FB, things about the kids. Very close to how things were before BD a year ago, minus anything marriage or relationship wise. No terms of endearment or flirting.
With OW, communication is very superficial and flirtatious only. With me he wants to talk to me about life and things that are interesting to him or wants me to share in something. He's not very interested in me, or at least he doesn't ask. He seems to have the attitude of he wants to know what is going on with me, but that he doesn't have the right anymore. It also is still just very much about him right now.
He really likes to play phone games with me. Maybe that's more comfortable? Not sure. It's a way for him to be with me, without being in the same room as me.
I thought I had lost a CD he gave me a few months after BD and it really upset me. He helped me find it, and I was still noticeably upset. He hugged me for the first time since he moved in.
Raine,
One step at a time. If he feels comfortable playing games w/you, then do it for a bit. It's a connection in an odd sort of way.
He sounds like he's getting comfortable being at home. Keep things as light and simple as you can.
Lots of patience are needed during this time. If you catch yourself starting to say something about the relationship or anything related to what he's doing, count to ten and walk aways. It's best not to ruffle his feathers too much right now. You've given him a safe place to land and he really needs it for now.
Hang in there!
Will do! By related to what he is doing, do you mean replay stuff? What about asking him how his day was? I have done that. I try not to ask him about anything or to do anything, but make positive comments when he does things to help out.
Oh! I have been meaning to tell you...he has two bags packed in the master closet from when he moved back. Clothes and such. I put them in there for him and didn't touch them and he hasn't unpacked them. He hasn't done much of anything anyway, but I had the closet organized and told him i just left his bags alone and he thanked me. From other sitches I know that gives him some security. The difference from how it was between BD and S is the bags are not in his car.
Hi Raine, I’ve been following your thread for a while. I think you are doing good.
With me he wants to talk to me about life and things that are interesting to him or wants me to share in something. He's not very interested in me, or at least he doesn't ask. He seems to have the attitude of he wants to know what is going on with me, but that he doesn't have the right anymore. It also is still just very much about him right now.
I think this was my H a few months ago too, before he stopped communicating with me. In the recent interactions it seemed like he also wants to know about me, but thinks that he has no right anymore.
He is also not in a long term R right now, I don’t know about any OW. I’m not sure if there was any PA at all. He tried to start a EA with a young woman, but it didn’t go anywhere. Two months ago during our conversation about the D, he told me that he would probably not get married again. But, last October he told me that he wanted to find a perfect mate for this new “phase” of his life. Our mutual friend also told me that H wants a “harmonious relationship”. This is all confusing to me.
Hi BF! Thanks for your post. I'm sorry you find yourself here too. Your H does sound like so many others...all over the map and doesn't know what he really wants.
Here's the kicker...I don't know what I want either. I focus so much on this is his journey, that I rarely even think about my needs, and do I even want this guy? Even if he grows up and becomes the man of my dreams, will I always be haunted by these sickening feelings? How can I trust someone like this? I think the time will come when he will want me back and do anything for that, and I don't know how I am going to feel at that moment. I don't want to be with someone I can't trust. And how can I trust he won't do it again? I long for something that just isn't there anymore, and fear that even though he changed and couldn't hide that something happened 3 years ago, that it's still possible that this has been going on the entire marriage. This has taught me that anything is possible.
The affairs started 3 years ago. I don't even know if "affair" is entirely the right word, because there isn't any relationship or commitment. It's either sexual flirting online or physical encounters that are limited. And almost all of them know that they are not the only one. It's just for "fun."
the encounter three years ago was a one time physical, but ongoing online things. This happened when I was going through a difficult pregnancy. About 14 months ago is when he got involved with someone again physically, and finally BD at beginning of my last pregnancy.
I do the living day by day, and I can make it day by day. But if I step back and look at this guy who has cheated on me with half a dozen other women, with the catalyst being my pregnancies, and him abandoning me and cheating on me when I needed him most, I question what I'm doing. I should want nothing to do with him. While I feel quite certain he is in crisis, that isn't an excuse for doing and continuing to do things that are wrong.
I feel like there are good things coming my way. I feel there is a plan for me, a really good plan. Life is going to be better than I could have ever imagined it. I just don't have any of the details yet. There are still some things I need to do before I can step away and focus only on those details.
Raine,
There's nothing wrong in asking how his day was. You can also wish him a good day too. You are on the right track by providing positive feedback to him. He needs to be recognized for things because his ego needs those kibbles.
He likes to play games w/you on the phone. I'd continue them and follow his lead. He's just an overgrown kid and is trying to grow up.
Whatever you do, do not unpack those bags! He needs to know that they are packed and ready to go if he should feel the need to run. They are like a security blanket. When he unpacks them, you'll know then he's staying right there and no more running.
Raine, continue as you have been. If he opts to leave, it would surprised me, but I think he's going to be hanging around for quite some time. Just be patient.
H shaved and cut his hair. He looks like himself again. Which is difficult to see. Appearances mean nothing but a hurtful reminder of the man I used to have, who used to love me and would do anything for me.
He went to his guys night, but came home at 930. Usually he is out until 2/3am on Friday night. I was very surprised. We spent the evening watching tv together. Lots of laughs, talking about different things, pausing the tv multiple times to talk about something. All normal--old normal.
But it hurts. And everything is a reminder. Everything on TV is a dig inside me of the betrayal, of his childhood issues, of his current issues, of my loneliness for my old companion.
He is on the happy side tonight, but still emotion there. He sang "crying" to me, as we were taking about Roy Orbison, and he had tears in his eyes.
Talk came up and he mentioned talking to someone else who is having a hard time going through D and depression and how he reached out to him as a friend who cares and understood. Touched on things being bad and him saying it can't get any worse for him but probably will. As I have learned to expect and accept, he doesn't see my pain or realize I've been through anything. Or perhaps he does, but acknowledgment is too painful.
Hi Raine ~
I think he does know that you hurt. But in acknowledging that you hurt, he has to admit what he has done and face himself. Not sure he's ready to do that - yet.
My H has told me "I know I'm not easy to live with" and "I'm sure this isn't what you signed up for".
They aren't strong enough to be there for us yet Raine. They have so much to settle within themselves.
I soooo hope that they do.
It's hard when we see glimpses of the man we knew. I think harder than when they are the alien. I think when they seem "normal", it makes it harder for us to detach.
Still... Grateful for those moments.
I'm glad you and H spent some time together that was relaxing, fun, and non- stressful. Maybe he's trying to feel things out. Maybe times like last night will help him to remember positive thoughts and feelings about his old life, his life with you.
Hoping for a good weekend for you
You're right. He doesnt want to face anything right now. There is the acknowledgement that he has destroyed his life, but he brushes it off. It is hard, because I'm very attached to the old guy, and it's like having a visitation from the other side from a loved one who has passed. But I blink and I am next to the guy I don't feel much of anything towards.
I blocked all the OW on fb a little while ago. It was making me feel negative everytime they would like or comment on H's stuff. I thought blocking it would be best for me, so I wouldn't see it and dig further. He always wants me to see his updates. One of them noticed though. Oh well. Does it even matter? I guess he will just gather I'm suspicious. I didn't want him to feel awkward around me, and likely it's all fine and he just acts like he doesn't care what I know.
I sure feel for you T. This is much harder emotionally and also DB to have him here. If i have any slight look on my face, pensive or otherwise, he wants to know what's wrong. It's nice to have some help. Kind of what I would expect from a teenage son level of help. Today he said he was going to take the older boys out to do some browsing. I said that sounded great and at some point I needed to go grocery shopping. He said, oh let's go do that and then I'll my stuff later. So we went out together to a few stores. I pointed out a men's shirt I thought was nice, and he immediately grabbed his size and bought it.
He asked me about his singing last night, if it was pitchy. I said I was very sweet and spot on. That I really liked it.
I grilled up some hamburgers for lunch and then put the little ones down for a nap. He then ran his errands with the older boys and then went out again tonight, so tues, wed, fri and sat he had gone out. I did a yoga DVD (yay TVS!) and put together a bookcase for S's room.
Yeah, having them "home" 24/7 is, ummmm, "interesting"...maybe???
When I would have looks or vibes, even if not to do with the R or her (she didn't seem to remember for a long time that I just might have other issues to deal with besides her and the R, like work, finances and stuff), W would get mad and/or turn cold (her defense mechanism at the time). But seems more like your H now (and maybe most of the last year), at least asking. Which is nice. The toughest part is being "on show" 24/7 I think, well at least for me it was. Thankfully I can go to my work office whenever, and I almost always have a back log of some kind of work to do, to keep me busy, and also so I don't have to lie...lol.
I find your description of H giving "teenage boy" sort of help funny, and true for W through most of this! You will be SO ready for the "teenage years" when this is all over...
You are awesome!!
T^2
Hahah hopefully! Anything I can do to prepare for the whirlwind that is in my path in a few years time is a blessing! Thanks T! I think you are awesome too!!
I see a lot of good in H. A lot of things I like. It is still puzzling to me how he is where he is. Doesn't matter how much you read or relate to others, I just never would have imagined that he would do this to himself and to me. There have been times in the past three years where I would have anxiety that something was not right, but I trusted him more than my intuition. That is and forever is gone. I just won't be able to trust anyone above my own thoughts and feelings. Even when he painted the picture right in front of my face, almost screaming for me to discover his betrayal, I would brush it off and justify it as something else. He would never...
Yesterday was really nice. I made him a special breakfast, which he posted about on fb, not mentioning my name. I gave him a card that was generic. No love or for husband kind of things, just how he was meant to be a dad. i wrote in it about how special of a dad he is and specific things he does that are amazing and how the boys look up to him and want to be like him. it was all about him and his relationship with the boys. A separate card from the boys. No gift. H left for church before me with the older boys. I arrived later and saw him in the hall for the first time and he said "wow! You look great!" I thanked him. And then we both just hugged each other. It wasn't iniated by either one first. It just happened, and in public, in the middle of everyone. First public hug.
Not much after church. I said I wanted to go get a soda. He didn't want anything, but came with anyway. I didn't invite, but when I said I was going to grab one, he said okay and put all the kids in the car and hopped in. We spent the afternoon in the same room. I was cleaning the kitchen and he said he wanted to do that, and I said not today.
Talked about music and stuff all afternoon. Played phone games (ha!). I went to a family BBQ, but he didn't want to and went to a movie. I acted like it was no big deal, and that was genuine. It's not a big deal to me if he comes to family stuff or not. He talked to me about which one to see and that was pretty much it.
He seems to be trying to be good as far as OW. This happened before last month when he dropped them all. It lasted for a little bit, then he got pulled back in for a a few short encounters and ending of OW1. One super short meeting with OW4 after he moved back. It seems like he is trying again to do the right thing. I see this as very much like an addiction right now and likely makes it hard to overcome when multiple people are throwing crack on the table for free with no strings attached. (Btw that's funny cause crack is a drug but that's not the crack I meant. Ba doom ching!)
Raine,
Father's Day sounds like it was very special this year for you and your family. I'm glad everything went well. Sounds like he's getting comfortable being home, around you and the boys once again.
Keep up the good work!
That all sounds great Raine, but the usual slowwwww and no expectations reminders apply, I am doing it for myself as well
You made me spew my water with this:
(Btw that's funny cause crack is a drug but that's not the crack I meant. Ba doom ching!)
You are hilarious, I wish I could think of one for W and OMs...but I can't...better keep things G-rated, especially in my mind...
Keep going!
T^2
For sure T. I look at the change from a year ago and it's a much better place than the destruction of BD, but I need to realize it took a year just to get here. The feeling of stirring the pot is there, but resisted. It's hard when there is a connection and closeness going on, but also know there are innappropriate relationships going on with others. Flirting and sexting and plans to meet up that he then backs out of, and other times he doesnt. There is something really messed up within him, and as close as I feel to him and as good as it could be, I wonder if he will ever be able to get over this need to have OW want him. And if I really dig deep in myself I wonder if it's a fear that he is going to get through this and be a great H to someone, and I don't want that someone to be someone else.
I just got offered a job by an old boss today. I don't know the details. Could be remote work, could be out of state. Could be huge or nothing. Everything happens for a reason. Maybe this could be a big step in an entirely new direction.
This part right now has been the hardest. Where it's pretty apparent to me he wants me on some level, but he wants them too. When it seemed like he didn't want me, it hurt, but I could start moving on. The more limbo my state is, the harder it is to not rock the boat. Keep my hands and feet inside and facing forward, for now.
H just came home and I asked how his day was. He said good and gave me a pat on the shoulder as he walked by. Woohoo! A pat! A shoulder pat, at that! Now granted some random ow may have got a "I'll ... you on Friday," but I got a pat!
Maybe it's a pat on the shoulder today... But who knows... It could be a pat on the a$$ very soon
I've gotten the "pat" a few times too - made me feel like the family dog instead of his wife!
Hahah! Love it TVS! It is strange to think that a little pat is newsworthy. It's the first physical contact that hasn't been provoked by something, like me saying something or upset by something, so he'll hug me. The first touching cause he's walking by me.
It seems like he has been home much longer than 2.5 weeks. Maybe cause of the two weeks before too. Time doesn't feel the same anymore. Christmas feels like years ago. BD feels like it happened when I was in my college days, and yet everything is moving so fast too. Baby is sleeping really well. I don't think I'm far away from an 8 hours all at once sleep. Maybe that will help me feel a bit more normal.
Not taking this new job offer, but was interesting to think about the possibilities of it. I don't know if I'll ever want to go back to an office environment now. Things that mattered a year ago--now not so much. And despite it all, I truly am finding more joy in life now than a year ago. I like who I am.
The thought I cannot get out of my head is what if he has been cheating on me for years, not just the second OW that I found out about that happened in 2010/2011? I know the answer to that. If there is more, I am out of limbo. If there is more, I no longer see this as a temporary crisis. I see him as crisis for life. And that's why I so want to know. I feel held back by it. I'm really to move. I have momentum inside of me to be more, do more. I don't want to be in this fake life any longer than necessary. Ahh, I hate the fake part of my life. If I knew, then I would know if this lighthouse was going to start chasing the divorce ship or if I would be rooted for the next year. Oh my heck. Don't you wish I knew so I would just shut up about it!? Ha!
Sorry I'm such an analytical person. I find it so difficult to lay to rest things I have questions about. I'm keeping quiet. More and more answers are coming, as wise snodderly predicted, just slowly. I have learned a massive amount of patience, but not nearly enough. I feel the answer to my limbo is coming soon, and that makes me anxious, and makes me plan out things that I don't even need to worry about until if/when it happens.
I have reasons for thinking both are possible:
It's possible he is an ass that has used me for years and he has been really good at being a loving, caring husband during that time with a secret life, but in 2012 he was done with the secret. He has had opportunities to have a secret life, but I don't see anything that stands out when I think back as indication of it.
And it's possible he is in crisis that he needs to resolve his past and childhood. The clue to this is 2010 being the year he talks about, nothing before. He talked about November 2010 to me multiple times after separation. That's why I even got clued into the idea of OW#2 (second one I found out about) because he was talking about how depressed he was and how I should have noticed...how it all changed then. He talked about pictures and moments and how he felt in late 2010. (Low enough to cheat apparently.) Then he went through a period of him being good for 1-2 years, and then OW1 enters the picture as a true affair mid 2012, and he 180s everything in life, but won't file.
I do feel he is very tied to me as the closest person in his life, the only one he is true to whatever way it's possible for him to be true right now.
It just doesn't make sense. If only things made sense.
This is so not my life right? It stops when I say stop, and I'm so ready to say stop. I'm hanging on to hear the end of the story. Will H fall into a pit of misery for the rest of his life, surrounded by a lifetime of meaningless women? Will H become a knight in shinning armor, a man only a crazy person would leave? Tune in next time for more insane tales of my so called life.
Good for you for having a sense of humor and drama.
It's good to hear.
So you have those thoughts too, eh? Haven't we all? It seems natural to wonder about that, once the trust is broken. But really, you won't know until, well, you know. Time. All things come out in time. They always do...
Glad you're getting more sleep. That's always rough when they're first born. Good thing they're cute and cuddly
Peace,
AJ
The thought I cannot get out of my head is what if he has been cheating on me for years...
Will H fall into a pit of misery for the rest of his life, surrounded by a lifetime of meaningless women? Will H become a knight in shinning armor, a man only a crazy person would leave? Tune in next time for more insane tales of my so called life.
I'm with you, Raine!
I am almost sure my H hasn't had PA's but plenty of a wandering eye for at least 5 years. Once "texting" affair from a chat room that never culminated in a visit.
I, too, wonder can this be "cured"?
Part of me standing--in addition to "taking vows serious" is the hope-belief that these men were broken in childhood, and if THEY can resolve the issues, become a mature man....they could experience true love.
And if we are around ... true love with us!
It would be such a shame to give such a man to someone that doesn't deserve him!
But if he doesn't come out of it....hand him on a silver platter to someone that DOES deserve him! Lol!
Thanks always for your perspective, Raine!
You guys help me so dang much. Thank you, thank you! AJ, I love that he is so cuddly. And it's so much fun that he is smiling and giggling now. Also so nice that everything with the kids is so great. They all get along well, play nice together, love the baby. S2 loves being with S8, and he plays with him a lot.
rH, that is reassuring to know that about your H too. I wouldn't' be surprised if there have been a lot of "innocent" flirtations going on for several years. Beyond that, before three years ago, would really surprise me, but I'm used to surprises now.
H has this script going on: "I left my wife, but had to move back in for a little bit because of the place I was at. I'm living in her basement until I can get my own place figured out." He flirts heavy with them and pursues, sexting like, but whats been happening since a little before he moved back is once he has them on the hook, that's it. He doesn't meet up with them. There is one that he has been doing this with for months, with her flat out asking him for sex. She's just here to visit friends and has been staying 10 mins away, asking him to get together, and he hasn't. She lives two hours away and she came up here for him, and he hasn't gone anywhere near her. He has been hanging out with the kids or hanging out with his guy friends. He also has OW2 on the hook to meetup when he is out of town next month. He flipped at the thought of any of them talking to me, and they assume because I would make his life miserable. He stopped contact with OW4 because I blocked her on FB.
He's onto someone new now with the same song and dance.
Can you interpret crazy? I need some help.
I feel like this could go on forever. I'm not waiting for an affair to die. I'm waiting for him to stop going from one person to the next? There is no shortage. That won't die. I really don't feel like this will end until I file. But if i file, and the result is not D, but I get pulled back in, he wont be done. This wont end if I am the one manipluating it. It will come back.
He has a perfect setup to use women. He can keep telling them he has left, doesn't want anything to do with me, have his fling and move on. And maybe at this point he doesnt even need the actual physical encounter? He doesnt look like too much of a dick for using them, because he is a wreck because of separation and the kids.
IC said it's common for the other party not to file, so they can say they weren't at fault. I think my H isn't filing because he wants me as an option. And he is lazy. And he uses it for his replay addiction. Things are kept secret. He doesn't date them or make it public (so he can play a lot of them at once) and doesn't need to spend money on them. He only does that when he ticks them off. He can also use it as a means for sympathy to draw them in. His life is so bad, he needs them to comfort them. He has had a bad marriage, etc.
I'm glad I have a timeline. That keeps me sane regarding this for now and not feeling like a complete doormat. I feel like a constant battle is going on in my head between the this is temporary and one day it will be fixed vs he has always been broken, he will always be broken, and why are you hanging on to someone who told you a year ago he doesnt want you?
Oh man Raine, your post touched some nerves raw deep inside. I guess because our mlc'ers have a few common psychological drives underneath all this, I relate.
Yes, there is an endless supply, yes, it is easy and shallow, because they are afraid of depth. Someone doesn't "play" their game right? Block, delete, move on to the next. Sad, isn't it?
I am convinced it's an addiction. They can't just file because that would mean reality, consequences and loss. Much safer in the world they created, the consequences don't matter much, these are just toys they have. Disposable to their damaged ego. We, on the other hand, cannot be...we are reality, we are the mother/father of their children, a history.
I ask you to be patient some more. H being home, with the kids, is going to continually smack reality up against his fantasy...eventually two things happen...either fantasy is embraced and off they go, for good, or reality extracts such cognitive-dissonance that eventually the fantasy, and its COSTS, break through...they are left with the question of "Am I willing to lose, completely, that which I will not commit to?" It can go either way, even when they appear to be heading one direction or the other, they can reverse course instantly, and many times.
Be patient, be you. My IC told me that W knows I am the prize, otherwise she'd be gone. The trouble lies in the head listening to heart, and how to "un-do", or atone, for the damage done to the whole family...and some pride issues...like, W doesn't want to admit that T2 just maybe, just might have been, right about some things, just one or two.
Ooops, I got all philosophical, sorry, hope I didn't project too much of my sitch onto yours.
Hang in there Raine, you're awesome, you know it, H knows it...
T^2
T please project away, cause your sitch is so close with mine and this odd kind of addiction. It many ways we are the lucky ones, cause there isn't much fear of them leaving us for someone else. I really don't want to be tied to some woman who he was with while we were married because of the kids. And it's very clear that these women don't mean much. And deductive reasoning concludes that we mean a lot more to them because they are not putting us in that same compartment of people.
I remember the wanting to be wanted by other men before I was married. I remember that feeling. Now it's creepy. I want more than superficial. Maturity? Higher self esteem? Full Commitment? For whatever reasons, I just wouldn't like that, even if I was single. So if I think back to then, being insecure, hormones raging, and immature, I can see that someone else wanting them is a good temporary boost to their ego.
I have so seen the changing directions madness. It plays with my emotions so much, no matter how much I look at positives as temporary. I need to look at things in the span of months, not days.
Yeah I gotta stay in it. I focus on reasons to wait that don't really involve him, and that keeps me more roped in than thinking about possible positive outcomes with him.
I so relate with the "how to undo." I can't forget his reaction when I said what if I already knew everything? I thought he was going to be physically ill. He can't have a relationship with me with this stuff hidden. Even if I told him not to tell me, he couldn't live with that and the thought that he has wronged me and I am only with him because im oblivious.
You are definately the prize T! Your words of encouragement really boosted me up. I think so highly of you. Thanks for always saying what I need to hear. I'm lucky to be following a path you've already taken. So glad you're ahead.
Ahh can I just say it's so pathetic he uses our separation/impeding divorce as a pickup line? He needs someone to talk to, can't talk to anyone else...other than the half dozen other women he is playing with. I guess that bait attracts the "right kind" of woman. So annoying to me though. I have images in my head of meeting one of them. Let me tell you, that imaginary conversation is hilarious! Okay, off the soapbox!
I am sure my W did the same, Raine...sometimes the predictability across sitches amazes me...and yes, that bait attracts the "right" (cough, cough) sort of OP.
I hear you on the "conversations"...especially since I "think" I know who the PA OM might be...from his fb and his W's...man does he look empty, but maybe that's just through my eyes...I had to look, saw, came away with, "whatever"..not impressed, nor threatened. But yeah, I have entertained myself with a few imaginary conversations...just for giggles...
You got this...
T^2
They have to right? That makes it easier to understand and ignore. Telling someone you moved back home cause your wife was going to file and you hope someday you won't be so messed up so you can work it out with her--ya I don't think that one will get you laid.
I don't want to be another pawn. Another piece of the game. There isn't anything going on with me. I'm just letting him have time and space without sending him into panic. So I do have my part in the game.
Depression was hitting him again yesterday. It was S's counseling session, and when i got back, he was in that funk. I just ignored it and was my happy self. He was better when he home after work. Still there though. And he is needing more and more space, as he is getting more depressed, which then means he spends more time in the OW game.
W had a similar cycle pattern...
We can only do what we are doing...giving them time and space...so they can hopefully do it enough to figure out that it doesn't work.
I don't think we are pawns, though it sure can feel like it, and maybe they on the surface might think we are, but underneath the depression/replay/confusion?
H is out again tonight. He went straight to his game night and didnt come home first. This is getting to be typical. But as often happens, sons want to call him to say g'night. I hate this because he does not give them his full attention. He is still talking to other people and gives the boys his rehearsed response without listening to them. They'll ask a question, and he'll say "that's great," which makes them frusterated.
After they were done, I needed to tell him I was leaving early in the morning. Took 5 seconds to say that. After I told him he says, "g'night buddy. Love you. Err sorry. See it's not just you I try to get off the phone." Such a douche.
What I will do when they ask is send H a text saying "S wants to say goodnight when you have a moment." To me this means I understand you're playing a game, but when you have a few mins, call them. If it were me, I would step outside. H spends more time with these friends than his S, even now living at home. Should not be a big deal to step outside for 3 mins. Oh well. I just laughed at him and said g'night.
It's so very rude and I don't know the best way to fix that. I just want to tell the kids "daddy can't talk right now. Can you talk to him in the morning?" I can brush off his doucheness to me, but can't when he does it to them.
Back to ow1 tonight, for the first time in a month. Seems to be their typical breakup pattern. Then back to home, straight to his room. Back to a massive amount of phone game requests with me. Cycle, cycle, cycle. I knew this was coming since the Overt Depression yesterday.
This just [censored]. This whole thing just [censored].
And I'm annoyed at myself. Stop bitching. He came home. For whatever reason. And I know he is a f'ing mess. Messed up people don't make great friends or spouses or dads. So many others would love to be in my shoes, and I was one of those 8 months ago.
If I had known the way it all would go, the way it all would end, would I still have chosen this dance? Yah. I would have. For these four little men I would have gone through anything. I will go through hell and back for them. And if this is my hell that got me them, so be it.
Hi Raine ~
Sorry H is subjecting you to all his doucheness. It stinks, I know. Seems like a constant struggle with one step forward, two steps back. We always have to keep that guard up, keep that wall around our hearts strong.
It is hurtful in a different way when we see them brush off the kids. Even now, there are times my H will ignore them while he texts. Then he'll wonder why they get frustrated or come to me more often than him. So clueless sometimes!
And you're right... Messed up people don't make a great anything (except liars
)
What would happen if you ignored his gaming requests? Seems like he uses them as a way to make sure you're still there, and maybe even relieve his guilt.
He knows what he's doing his wrong. He's not ready to make better decisions yet. But that doesn't mean it will be that way forever.
I feel the same way, I wouldn't trade my boys for anything. I am still happy that H is their father, the man I chose to bring children into this world with. I still believe that one day he can find his way to being the man I know he can be.
If I ignore his game requests he takes it as I am mad at him. It is his way of testing the waters. He brings it up if I don't respond back on games for days or weeks that he knows I don't want anything to do with him. Which is true! Hah! I just tell him I haven't felt like it.
Thanks TVS! I hope my H can find his way too.
I agree, he seems to use the online games as a way to see if you're still there. Might not be a bad thing to reconsider sometime, if that works for you.
I can totally understand the resentment and anger, Raine. Seems natural at this point. When you get to that point, or start noticing that you're feeling that way, remember this bit:
If I had known the way it all would go, the way it all would end, would I still have chosen this dance? Yah. I would have. For these four little men I would have gone through anything. I will go through hell and back for them. And if this is my hell that got me them, so be it.
and let the anger go. You can't change the past, but you can focus on right now and tomorrow. You have a good perspective on things - he's messed up. But your anger about it seeps through and likely doesn't help either of you. It works against you even though it's perfectly natural and understandable.
Something to consider.
Peace,
AJ
AJ, reconsider which way? To play with him when I'm annoyed at him? Or to not play with him. I have been playing with him usually within a day of his request, no matter how I feel. Snodderly felt it was a small way he is connecting with me. Which I felt was true too. He only plays these games with me. And on other things, I am his only favorite. On FB if I post anything, he likes it within 10 seconds. I stopped using games as a distancing tactic a few months ago when he told me that he knows I hate him and that I don't want to play games with him and that I dont want anything to do with him.
H doesn't get to see my anger or frustration or tears. I leave if I start to feel that. I also don't enter his area without having happy thoughts. Having a baby makes it really easy to pull myself out. I can't full hide it. Not with him. If I even think about something and there is a look on my face, he notices. So I think happy thoughts, read quotes, listen to a song, and change the way I'm thinking, which changes how I'm feeling. You unfortunate souls get to see my anger venting. Someone has to
Today was a good test. I took my time and when I got out there, he was making breakfast. I was happy, he was happy. I think I did well, cause he told me he had invited a couple over next week. A guy he went to grad school with and his wife.
H and I are also going to a concert next week. First time we have done something like that in 9 months.
Can life get any more interesting?
I didn't see the part where you do play the games. I think Snodderly is right, he is using that as a "toe in the water" to see how you're doing toward him.
And yes, your life could get more interesting. But it's plenty interesting now, right?
I think you're doing well, and please continu to vent here. It's not a problem at all and it helps to see and hear what you're going through. It also helps you, right?
Which concert?
Peace,
AJ
Oh yeah I do now, especially since he moved it. It just annoys me when he does it after seeing someone. Oh well.
It helps a ton!
If I could pm you I'd tell ya, but it would be a dead give away for public.
I feel such a great peace today. Such a good feeling. The thought keeps coming that these things that I hurt from are so insignificant. One day, and not at the end of my days, they will matter very little, as if it were things that happened before I met my husband. They will be like that, because I have yet to meet the him, the man he will be for the rest of his life. Today I am feeling a small bit of "that" peace. For today, those things just don't matter.
The thought that came to mind, spoken in my husbands voice: "I'm glad I'm with you, even when I'm not."
Great, honest heartfelt post Raine.
I'm feeling angry and irritated right now, and this helped me.
I get it - we haven't met those men yet. They are still in their metamorphosis, still changing and growing. And we are too.
Keep being awesome you - your H will one day realize how very lucky he is
A quote I found from Amy C quoting J3B-
" If you have 1 shot in a 1,000,000 for the man you love, you take it."
I love that T! And I'm so glad that thought helped you today too. I feel that so many of us here are living parallel lives, and I'm so grateful we've found this place to be able to help each other along the way.
Some tidbits:
Church today, and it's really nice that H just comes with. No questions or expectations. Four weeks in a row. He made some comments that had everyone rolling. He was him, the guy everyone loves to be around.
Spent the afternoon talking about nothing important. We made dinner together, while listening to his music. A band came on that is one of his favorites and not so much mine, but I've been listening to it a lot because he likes it so much and it has grown on me. He said, " see this is the point you would ask me to turn this off." Instead of saying a word, I walked over him and hugged him from behind. He put his arms on mine and I said, "sometimes it just takes time for me to fully appreciate something." He didn't let my arms go for several seconds after that.
It was a moment.
I have a family thing tonight that he spoke about earlier as "when you go to your thing tonight." A few hours later and after being together this afternoon, he is getting ready to come with.
This has been a very good day.
Hi ya Raine,
Yup, those moments, those days that are good...treasure them. I do like his small movements towards you, small and slow seem to be better than big and fast, at least that is my experience with phase 1 vs phase 2 with W's mlc. But the slow and small can be soooo trying of the patience...but better I think than the false "all better" of fast...if that makes sense...lol.
Having an in-house mlc'er is no task for the weak, but I do believe you will have everything covered, just keep YOU and the boys in the forefront of your mind and you'll get through it, eh?
Just popping in whilst on vacation and got the boys pretending to be asleep, thought I'd catch up... you know that routine...
Just keep being you, and keep going...big picture, big picture...
T^2
Glad you're checking in! I think the slow movement is a good thing. Very little happening beyond friendship. The closeness is there. Lots of talking. It's all general topics or about him and his work. Some talk about things like past marriage counseling, but we talk about it like it's an observation. First time ever he said second counselor was good because of her scientific approach (something I said, but he never liked her. He didn't want to work on anything, so yeah, why would be?) I said I just didn't get much from her as an IC, because I felt I had a better grip on what was going on and my own internal perspective. Told him how much I liked S's C. Said how S's counselor didn't think marriage counseling was very good. Said both have to really want it. Both have to want to aquire certain skill sets and do the work, and too often it's only one of the partners who does, making IC better. He would be my vote for MC if we ever got there.
We also talked about addiction and drinking. He said he thought he could be a social drinker, but doesn't need it and gets expensive. We talked about our friend who is a total alcoholic. I said, see friend talked like he was being a social drinker, but he's not. He can't stop and drinks til he passes out, all the time. Friend can't be a social drinker because he is using it to drown his problems. H said that is the other reason he stays away, because he knows that is where he would take it, to numb everything.
T another thing that is really crazy in our sitches is both of our spouses had that one A, with a period of a year or two before going full blown mlc and the multi relationships. So many similarities, which is interesting to me with them being opposite genders.
Last night was one of the best nights ever. I loved every moment of it. I wanted everything to be perfect for me, because I was going to have a good time, no matter way. I looked awesome. Usually for something like this, I would wear jeans, but that's not me anymore. I had on this cute, funky dress and a short jacket and sandals. I decided to get a pedicure, which went way longer than it was suppose to (whoops) making me 20 minutes later than I wanted to be. I'm sure H was annoyed, but he didn't verbalize it. He never said anything about how I looked. Didn't care. I know he noticed. He looked great, and I told him how much I liked his shirt. He said thanks and that a lot of people at worked had liked it today too.
We got there and it was fine. It was an outdoor one, and I had bought special chairs for it, and we found a place right in the center about as close as we could get in general admission. So being late didn't matter in the end.
The opening band was way better than what I had anticipated from hearing samples. There was an older couple near us that got up and totally rocked out. I loved it! I wanted to be them. I love that no inhibition--and that has not been me. I tend to be too self-conscience.
H and I sat very close together, shoulders on top of each other, but that was it. Shared a dinner and drink. Both of us posted to FB about the concert. I put up a pic of us, and tons of people said how great we looked. He was commenting back on the pic, so hopefully didn't make him too uncomfortable. We were moving to the music a lot in our chairs, sometimes to the same direction and movement, but mostly not. Ha!
The last song, I got up and danced, and he followed suit about five seconds later. I loved that I took the lead on that--again so not me--but again, I didn't care! This IS me! I felt good, I don't care if I looked great or totally whacky. We danced side by side through the encore songs. We both had such a good time. He thanked me for it.
On the way home we talked about one song that was emotional for him. I reached over and squeezed his hand, and was just going to be this short squeeze and pull away, but he grasped my hand and squeezed it three times--a big signal for us: "I love you." I don't know the last time he did that. Not since S, and likely not since BD. I was already pulling my hand back, and I smiled at him.
I so get the feeling he is will to reciprocate anything, but he is far too chicken to initiate. I initiate a little here and there, like reaching for his hand, a hug, but don't want to start chasing him. I feel like if he was really ready, he would, but also I think the guilt torments him something sever. The feeling I get is he is willing to meet my needs, but not able to initiate anything for himself. I figure the best thing to do is just continue: time and space. I don't want to rock the boat. He seems to be slowly moving away from OWs and slowly moving towards me.
I want to do more of these concerts. I just want to buy the tickets and if he comes, he comes.
Raine,
You are doing great. A little at a time because your h is still very fragile and like a skittish colt, you have to hold out your hand a little bit at a time. Don't rush it or he'll pull back and run.
I'm glad you had a great time last night. Things do sound like they are turning around for you. Keep up the good work!
Raine, that sounds awesome! How fun!
Exciting that he returned some affection especially the three hand-squeezes. It's wonderful to have those little signals between you
I like that you see not to chase him but make yourself available. And you were one hot mama!
Alright my captains. Will do
There is a band I want to see in a little over a month. I got tickets to it but haven't told him. I'm going. We'll see if I take him. If I do, I won't tell him for awhile.
He does know about one in two months that I have tickets for. I got those at the same time as the last one. I also want to see Marc Marion again. Last time we did, H had a mixed time with him. It was after bd and just too much truth for him. Very funny, and H was laughing really hard, but the truth hit harder.
Gave him lots of space today. Saw him for a second before he left for work and then haven't talked to him or seen him since. He went out with the guys. Didn't tell me, but this is one of the nights he usually does. He got home at a reasonable time and went to his room. We played "with friends" games through the phone. It's almost like his way of saying he is home in addition to the connecting.
Took the kids to the park tonight and for ice cream. Had a really fun time with them.
I'm having a really hard time with sleeping lately. Baby is sleeping really well. Me, I just lay here. And I can't take anything to help. I'm not tired is part of the problem and the other part is my head is always spinning. I always feel like I'm waking up tired. Ah well.
The cycling emotions is a killer.
H invited a couple over for games last night. It's such a weird feeling for me to "act" like a couple, act like old times. And then I think, this is not new to him. He was acting like he was my everything, and cheating with someone else. My life changed a year ago. His changed long before that.
The other couple starts talking about being walked in on one time, and I'm feeling uncomfortable. Before it would have just been a funny story, but now I feel oddly innocent in that area. It's been over 8 months. And then I think, but not for H. I wonder, will I always be thinking about him being with others anytime topics like this come up. I felt sick. I looked at this forum at one point during the night and saw Linda's thread and started thinking about the song "The Winner Takes it All." Thoughts of him with other women while being married to me are searing. The couple was really nice and I had a fun night otherwise. H makes plans to get together with them again next month.
After they left, we talked about our plans for next week. Told H what I signed up to take to neighborhood 4th party. He said, "Oh okay. Am I invited to that?" I know I gave this kind of exasperated yes, cause he said, "I wasn't being a dick." I said too late, and he said, "I said that I wasn't." I don't even know what I said back, something like I know you weren't.
Truth of the matter is, yes, he is a dick. He is a selfish prick and has been for awhile. And I hate living a lie, trying to keep everything together, thinking that someday he'll change.
I just don't even know how to talk to him some times. So on my toes.
He tripped on a toy going down the stairs and said "Wow, that could have just solved all your problems. You could have had all your problems solved and bunch of money too." I just ignored him and put the toy away. He goes, "Wouldn't that solve all your problems?" I said "No, it wouldn't," and I gave him a hug. I got my "patting hug" response.
I went upstairs. Threw up, cried, and prayed. Couldn't get to sleep until 2 and was back up with baby at 6.
This should not be messing me up so much. None of these things were atypical or negative. I am just feeling drained and not getting enough sleep.
And I'm lonely. And the more I am with him, the lonelier I feel. I wanted to talk to someone last night. And there is no one. I pray, and doubt God even exists.
So here's to negative Nancy. Time to change my thinking, to change my feelings. It'll get better. It always does.
Hi Raine ~
It's hard having them around, I know. Sometimes have trouble sleeping myself, my brain just won't turn off!
Glad to hear baby is sleeping well
I think we may feel more lonely at times when they are around because we see glimpses of the real them, and miss that person, miss the R we had with that person.
If it makes you feel any better, I feel lonely too
It was nice he invited the couple for game night, H and I used to do that all the time back in the day.
What you and your H had is special, no sleezy band aid of an OW could ever replace that.
You never know what could happen in the future...
Try to sneak in a nap today, even just for a bit. I know I feel cranky and negative when I am tired lol!
Take care of yourself mama - you have a lot going on, and it would be very easy to feel burned out.
Thinking of ya
PS - maybe we should dance around to "Waterloo" to cheer us up?
Raine, I am so very sorry you are feeling this way today.
It is ok, really. You feel what you feel. This is so hard and I especially admire those who do this with babies and young children and their spouses still at home.
There are going to be good days and bad. Feel the feelings and then let them wash over you.
The thing is this. You cannot control your h. The only one you can control is you. And it really is best to try as hard as you can to detach.
I know it's difficult, but, it really is the only way to get through this.
You take care of your baby (I am sorry, not sure if you have other children) and yourself.
Let him blow in the wind right now. He has to walk this journey. Your only job is to get out of the way and walk yours.
Whenever you want to respond to him and you are not sure if you can, count to ten, sing a song, go somewhere else.
I will not try to convince you of whether there is a God right now or not. But I think if you look into your baby's face, you will see there is.
Thanks so much T & uR. T, I think you nailed it. It is the hardest when things are a "past" normal, and then reality jerks me back into place. No it doesn't make me feel better you're lonely too.
I'm sorry T, and you have been doing this so much longer than me. I have not however trimmed my H's neck hair while he was standing there buck naked. My H is just consistent in his underwear and towel apparel. I'm hoping the future is bright, no matter what it is. I can have hope in that
Waterloo is a must for today!
uR, thank you so much for your post. I updated my signature. I've got a slew of little men (does H count as one of those? :))
It seems like just as things are at an all time high, my emotions spiral me down. I get to a good place of not caring and feeling good, and then it's too much reality at once. Too much thinking is the problem. Too much of a fake reality and not knowing what I want and feeling like H doesn't want me either, and yet the situation is more positive than it has ever been.
I do tend to just smile at what he says and say nothing. At times like those, I feel like anything I say is going to be taken as either pursuit or a snarky remark. I need to work on this though. Sometimes I'm very compassionate, and other times when I am annoyed, it is all I can do to not respond back.
This detachment business is so difficult for me. As I move away, he gets frantic, says I hate him, gets paranoid and depressed. As I am there for him, he goes off in his own little world of OW and single guy friends. And yet he is slowly making advances towards me, and advances towards his bevy of frumpy twats is trickling off.
I do believe there is a God, and usually it's when I'm at my lowest is when I feel his concern and love for me the most. But sometimes when I feel so lost, I wonder if there is any point to any of this, if anything even matters.
Thanks for being my friend...;)
I updated my signature. I've got a slew of little men (does H count as one of those? :))
yes, he does, clearly
Too much thinking is the problem. Too much of a fake reality and not knowing what I want and feeling like H doesn't want me either, and yet the situation is more positive than it has ever been.
Yep, that does seem to be the way it goes, doesnt it? The too much thinking thing, I know it well. It is a process to learn to shut thoughts out. Really try to do whatever you can to silence the thoughts - redirection, meditation, a trashy novel, a walk, a prayer. Soon you begin to learn to do it without realizing it. Now that's not to say that it works all the time for me, but, I have gotten much better about it.
Of course you dont know what you want. How could you? You're h is an alien right now. All over the place and crazy.
You will figure it out and when you do, you will have no doubts.
I do tend to just smile at what he says and say nothing. At times like those, I feel like anything I say is going to be taken as either pursuit or a snarky remark. I need to work on this though. Sometimes I'm very compassionate, and other times when I am annoyed, it is all I can do to not respond back.
This detachment business is so difficult for me. As I move away, he gets frantic, says I hate him, gets paranoid and depressed. As I am there for him, he goes off in his own little world of OW and single guy friends. And yet he is slowly making advances towards me, and advances towards his bevy of frumpy twats is trickling off.
I have to say that you need to do what is best for you without regard to what his reaction will be. His journey, R.
I do believe there is a God, and usually it's when I'm at my lowest is when I feel his concern and love for me the most. But sometimes when I feel so lost, I wonder if there is any point to any of this, if anything even matters.
He is there always. Sometimes He is leaving you to figure out it for yourself. Not because He doesnt love you, but, because He does.
As far as their being any point to this. Raine, there are four little people who need to know one day that their mom did everything she could to keep their family together. And those four little men need to see what strength and courage is. You show them that daily.
It matters, R. It matters.
Thanks for being my friend...;)
Oops, not what I wanted the post to look like. Sorry. Here it is again.
I've got a slew of little men (does H count as one of those? :))
yes, he does, clearly smile
Too much thinking is the problem. Too much of a fake reality and not knowing what I want and feeling like H doesn't want me either, and yet the situation is more positive than it has ever been.
Yep, that does seem to be the way it goes, doesnt it? The too much thinking thing, I know it well. It is a process to learn to shut thoughts out. Really try to do whatever you can to silence the thoughts - redirection, meditation, a trashy novel, a walk, a prayer. Soon you begin to learn to do it without realizing it. Now that's not to say that it works all the time for me, but, I have gotten much better about it.
Of course you dont know what you want. How could you? You're h is an alien right now. All over the place and crazy.
You will figure it out and when you do, you will have no doubts.
I do tend to just smile at what he says and say nothing. At times like those, I feel like anything I say is going to be taken as either pursuit or a snarky remark. I need to work on this though. Sometimes I'm very compassionate, and other times when I am annoyed, it is all I can do to not respond back.
This detachment business is so difficult for me. As I move away, he gets frantic, says I hate him, gets paranoid and depressed. As I am there for him, he goes off in his own little world of OW and single guy friends. And yet he is slowly making advances towards me, and advances towards his bevy of frumpy twats is trickling off.
I have to say that you need to do what is best for you without regard to what his reaction will be. His journey, R.
I do believe there is a God, and usually it's when I'm at my lowest is when I feel his concern and love for me the most. But sometimes when I feel so lost, I wonder if there is any point to any of this, if anything even matters.
He is there always. Sometimes He is leaving you to figure out it for yourself. Not because He doesnt love you, but, because He does.
As far as their being any point to this. Raine, there are are four little people who need to know one day that their mom did everything she could to keep their family together. And those four little men need to see what strength and courage is. You show them that daily.
It matters, R. It matters.
Most the time I can handle H. It's usually when i get in these situations where i feel fake that i have such a hard time with. You're so right uRw. It really does matter. When I'm at my lowest low, they are what pull me back in. I am still in this for them. Thank you for your helpful and kind post. It made me feel a lot better.
Journaling:
I'm just getting back to bed. H got in about 2. I never heard him. I got up at 4, and he heard me walking around and came up. He then sat down on the couch and talked to me for over an hour. A few times I said I better pass out, and he said yeah him too, but then he's start talking about something else. It was him. No alien, and he had so much he wanted to tell me. It's still about him though. He doesnt ask me questions. He doesn't have a full back and forth conversation. He also told me about talking to other people about me tonight, referring to me as his wife. He used to talk about me/brag about me a lot. I'm not sure how much he does that still.
I really do think that he is mlc and the cheating has been going on during the crisis and not the whole marriage. The depression and the guilt hasn't been around the whole time as well as him being easily frustrated and no patience among all the 180s.
I just googled what causes serial cheating and the first result is so H right now, it's scary, down to the how he reacted when I said I would file. I still have those doubts. It sad to realize that anything is possible. Here is what I found:
Serial Cheaters - Narcissists
A typical reason for infidelity is that one spouse may be a narcissist who often becomes a serial cheater. The narcissist is most likely to have many affairs and will pursue anyone they can manipulate with their boundless words and actions.
Narcissists are self-absorbed and tend to be highly charming. They have a constant need for admiration. They view all events in terms of how the events impact them and them alone. They are master manipulators and feel an "emotional high" with each new conquest. Their behavior is often impulsive which can appear exciting. These individuals lack compassion unless it helps them achieve their goals. They are unwilling to see or consider anything from another person's viewpoint. They will continue the emotional control with a target until the relationship becomes too burdensome. They utilize no moral boundaries in their pursuit of admiration and physical activity from the opposite sex; frequently offering marriage, promises, baptism, children, etc. Literally - whatever the target "needs to hear" in order to close the deal is what the narcissist will say and do. Their targets are usually married which heightens the feeling of conquest. They frequently have several affairs going on at once with no regard to the damage caused by their reckless pursuit of self-gratification. Narcissists develop specialized talents such as crying on cue, "elegantly" deceiving without stumble, saying just the right things at just the right time, etc. all designed to aid in attaining their goal.
Their behavior is more than a lack of self-esteem. It goes to the very core of the individual's personality and is a pervasive aspect of their lifestyle. This character flaw prevents them from keeping marriage vows and in the vast majority of cases narcissists will forever cheat on their spouse(s). It is interesting to note that narcissists rarely divorce and will fight tooth and nail to remain married. This is believed to go along with the "need to be accepted by all" mentality that narcissists possess. As strong as their need is to conquer outside their marriage; they turn into weeping idiots if/when their spouse even suggests divorce.
hi girls-
my 2 cents - my h is gone alot (3 wks of 4) it stinks. BUT - it's easier (maybe not so good tho) to remember the fond stuff than have TODAY'S REALITY smashed in your face - CONSTANTLY>
IDK-
i'm lonely alone- but
I think we may feel more lonely at times when they are around because we see glimpses of the real them, and miss that person, miss the R we had with that person.
this is really true too . it seems MORE INTOLERABLE by far when you are "near" someone who used to be closest person on earth and now they are "so far" away from you.
we can do it- make it to the end of h's "journey" and of course- our own. we have no choice ladies - do we? (big talk here from me- oh well- my own pep talk to self alot)
sleep??? i remember sleep. a full nite without waking- cannot even remember back that far. wait - on morning about - oh - 55 years ago - waking up after sleeping a whole nite and surprised it went by so quickly- probably 7 years old about.
laying there in bed - hot hot summer day- but not hot yet because that waking up cool thing still in effect. just laying there- thinking- hearing birds - whoole day before me- life is good - we can recapture it somehow- idk how- but i'm pretty sure...
a tiny tiny speck moment in time. maybe when we're ancient and wise (???!!!) we'll ahve that again? ya think???
i say yeah - go dance - waterloo - i'm not kidding (and i'm not a head-banger or modern person) - go to youtube music- find pitbull and put on "give me everything tonite" - you will dance and wiggle til you drop (v.good for waist & stomach muscles) you will really feel it- it's soooooALIVE & life affirming to HAVE TO DANCE and it will perk you up - waaaay up
(or black eye peas - I got a feelin" (tonits gonna be a good nite)
we have to hang on guys- if not for us- for the people who love us that (may not show it, but do) depend on us being there in their lives.
xxoo
HI AND OH CRIPES -
your definition fits h now too. was it forever - 38 yrs? idk.
kinda sorry i read it- what the heck do we do with this informaton now anyway? it's like really KNOWING your gasmileage- are YOU REALLY GOING to go out and sell your car over it???
or are you going to know it and feel bad? worry about it?
oh man....
gonna go paint and shut off brain and shut on you tube & music.
we CAN do this...
Hi Raine. The question that comes to mind is if your husband is really a narcissist or has narcissistic tendencies or is situationally narcissistic. I ask because he likely hasn't always been that way. He may have - you'll have to figure that out. But in this time period he likely has those tendencies. As a way of making himself feel better.
Read an interesting article the other day. "Beyond Betrayal: Life After Infidelity" Might be of interest to you.
And of course he wants to talk. He may be one of those that does his thinking out loud. Many are.
And I'm sure he does brag about you to others in most settings.
Peace,
AJ
Nero it's great to see you back posting more. You made me smile. Ignorance is bliss, right?
AJ, wow that article was a tough pill to swallow. I would LOVE for H to read it. He avoids anything that could make him internalize himself. I sure hope this is temporary. I need to stop dwelling on it. The only way I'd know is if he admits it. It doesn't fit the past 13 years, but unfortunately I don't believe in guarantees anymore.
So today...hmm, interesting day.
H talks to me at 4am about what he did the night before for an hour and an half. I get up with the boys and make breakfast. Eventually H comes up too. A few hours later H wants to run some errands, but doesn't want to take any of the boys cause they'll be bored, but says he'll ask them. He leaves and goes to see OW for 45mins then to the store. Encounters are a week apart now. He calls me while at the store to tell me to check out Facebook and talk about the store he is at. He gets back home and we are just hanging out as a family. He sends me game requests and I play with him. I leave to go pickup some dinner and run an errand. He sends more game requests while I'm gone. After dinner we went to a get together with our closest group of friends. Before going H asks me my opinion on a shirt and I tell him the one he wore before goes better. He changes. He then says, "sorry this is really gross, but with you check my breath? im self conscience about it." I did and it was fine. He says he is running out of cologne. He has told me this before. I ask him if he wants me to check deals online and he says no I don't need to do that. I said I don't mind and ask him what he'd like. He said that would be great, and get whatever, that I know what he likes
We get to the party and everyone is telling me how great I look. Can't believe I just had a baby. H's close friend hugged me multiple times, saying I was one sexy mama. H and I had our own social circles going on. During the movie, H sits off to the side and looks at FB, and likely texting. I took the younger kids plus s8 home a little early and put them to bed. S8 was really clingy to me tonight for some reason, so let him hang out with me. H and I watched a tv show and then went our separate ways. More game requests once i was in bed. Just a normal, abnormal day.
Hi Raine,
Hope you are doing better, this is tough stuff, I so get this:
Just a normal, abnormal day.
Quite a few times I would "forget" the sitch (and still do) and start talking to W about things like "normal" times, then get reminded somehow that we "ain't in Kansas anymore"...then the weirdness and loneliness kicks in.
One thing I wanted to touch upon that AJ said is that these personality traits like narcissism and such I am convinced get amplified and turned up to 9 or 10 on the dial during the crisis...W, I can see now, always had some histrionic (HPD) tendencies during the marriage, and before (from what I have deduced from things said by siblings and such)...it used to be quite tolerable (even "interesting" or "cute") when the volume was at 2 or 3, but just before the crisis it ramped up, and during the crisis it maxxed out and seemed to even morph into BPD (yikes!) for a while. It is diminishing quite a bit in W now, and from what I've read, many times the NPD/BPD/HPD traits do indeed trail off again as the crisis starts winding down...
The "no guarantees" is something I think we all are left with, forever, after this ordeal. I am okay with that now, but it was a tough row to hoe to get there... If I am honest with myself, there never were any guarantees. But nobody told us that and it wasn't in the R manual that we didn't get in the mail either...
One thing that popped into my head was something W said a while back (Feb/Mar)...that she always thought about "acting upon" the attentions from other men, but didn't until now. "Now" she wants to "act", while she can before she gets too old, her looks go, etc... I sometimes wonder if she has had guilt all these years because of that "un-acted-upon desire", and that guilt has been an agent in eroding her self-esteem and such...maybe some of that applies to your H? Maybe that is one of our spouses big secrets that they have trouble believing we could forgive (years of "wanting" to act, "unfaithful" in mind, if not deed)??
Idk, just a bunch of speculation, we won't know until/unless they tell us...
Hope you are having a great day despite being in "not-Kansas"...lol
T^2
One thing that popped into my head was something W said a while back (Feb/Mar)...that she always thought about "acting upon" the attentions from other men, but didn't until now. "Now" she wants to "act", while she can before she gets too old, her looks go, etc... I sometimes wonder if she has had guilt all these years because of that "un-acted-upon desire", and that guilt has been an agent in eroding her self-esteem and such...maybe some of that applies to your H? Maybe that is one of our spouses big secrets that they have trouble believing we could forgive (years of "wanting" to act, "unfaithful" in mind, if not deed)??
Something to consider. We, as humans, all have desires. As adults in a committed relationship, we don't act on them. The increase in desire to "feel desirable to others" is part of this, no doubt. A friend of mine went through something similar a while back. His wife was devastated. He took pills, he tried to get help, etc. He was lucky and he did make it through with his family intact. He is incredibly happy with his family even now. But he was telling me at the time how he wanted to feel "desired" by a woman he knew professionally. He didn't act on it, although he strongly considered it and may have even tried. I suspect that's a normal thing in some ways. To want to be desirable. It's not "normal" to act on it and blame others for it. That's where the crisis part comes in. I'm sure Raine has had a "desire" or a passing fancy when a good looking guy walks by and smiles. But that's not the same as acting on it.
Mine mentioned similar. More in a crass way, but similar
And she ran into OM (after a few others that she chased that didn't pan out for her). It's one of the ironies. She wanted to date other people (two at a time as I recall), but never really did. She also wanted to blame me, presumably to balance things in her head. The logic going something like: "I HAD to leave him because he <insert some accusation>." It's why being accessible is sooooo important. Being able to listen and validate is soooo important. It's really hard to blame somebody you trust and confide in, even if you can't see how you hurt them. Kind of a parent-child relationship thing is how it comes across, but I suspect it's more than that.
Just some thoughts. You're awesome Raine. And obviously a sexy mama
Peace,
AJ
Okay my reality has been checked. T2 & AJ you've given me a lot to think about today, and going to post back on that soon. Thanks for making me feel great!
I'm curious what you think about this current dynamic:
So H seems done with relationships with these women,, and although that may have put the kabosh on things, they are okay for physical encounters on his time frame. I think he communicates with OW1 a lot through text. She is the one who likely freaked about him moving back and goes through spurts of off again on again. Then we have ow2 who H plans to see during a business trip in a few weeks. He set that up, but rarely talks to her now she is on the hook. Then OW4 is okay for physical encounters, where before she thought they had an actual relationship. OW5 is only EA, and he has had tons of chances to be with her and doesn't. #5 I know very well. Old family friend, but H also knows I think very little of her. She abandoned her kids. I wonder if he doesn't take it further because this one I would have a hard time with or one more name he would need to confess? I don't get this one.
K so that player stuff is going on, but now to me.
Three nights ago he invites a college friend and his wife over. He then invites another couple over tomorrow night. Tonight he had one of his new single guy friends and the girl he is dating over. He thanked me for hanging out with his friends tonight, like it was a sacrifice for me, and I said I really enjoyed it. He thanked me for dinner. He said he really liked my toes. I said I wasn't feeling well and he wanted to know what I needed so he could get it. He is talking to me about nights out, concerts, comedy clubs together. This afternoon I started cleaning the kitchen and he stopped me because he wanted to. He talks to me non stop about things he is interested in. He is up for setting up a night each week to hang out with me and another couple to play games. So a lot of planning on his part for couple time with me.
Tonight he was texting tons with his friends here. The texting is starting to drive me crazy and I thought it was even more rude with his friends here. So when they were gone I said to him: "can you work on not texting when we are doing something?" He apologized about five times, telling me it was this guy friend, and he would be better. I know it wasn't a guy, but I felt like it was approriate to call him out on it in a nice way. I said, "It's okay. I just don't know your friends and I didn't want them to be offended."
Anyway, just interested on your take on how things are changing with him and how he is towards me, but also him holding onto replay too. It is so hard seeing him be less and less alien and knowing he is still using women too. For him to want to have me as his companion, but his bits and bobs "secret" on the side.
It didn't hurt as much when he didn't seem like himself. Ah hell. It probably did but it's the new stuff that hurts more than the old.
Raine,
I have to say you have a teenager in the house! LOL! However, I am glad he feels comfortable enough to invite people over and have you involved in their visits. It's a step in the right direction.
I still don't see him going anywhere in the near future because he's very comfortable there right now. I do think he's trying to find a balance between being a teenager and trying to grow up. Lots of time for this one to bake up. He's still got a ways to go.
Raine, you are handling your situation beautifully. Keep up the good work. Continue to dig for patience.
I think you are right, Raine. It doesn't hurt as much when they are totally off their rockers, acting crazy, being the alien.
But it messes with our minds when they are seemingly more "normal", more like themselves, but still entrenched in replay.
I am trying to see it as just as they slowly got themselves into these replay behaviors and messes, they will slowly get themselves out. And to do that, they need to be in a place mentality where they can see things a little more clearly.
The texting is maddening, but it really is all about their teenage brains. As adults, we realize its rude to be texting like that. They just don't get it.
I always wonder - if we took away OW out of the equation, who would they be constantly texting anyway?
I think it's great he's inviting other couples over to hang out with. That is a good way for you to spend time together and bond. Gives him something else to miss about you too
I love that he commented on your toes
I think they do notice details about us, just don't always verbalize it.
Hang in there sexy mama - you are doing great!
Ah Raine...
Wow.
Its amazing the role these MLCers expect us to play. And they are so "rational" in their approach and expectations - no clue that expecting a spouse to be a wingman might be wrong.
In my own sitch, I feel I need to put some space between me and H. For my own sanity.
Best of luck to you!
hey hi-
just a drive by here -
you know, you saying:
But it messes with our minds when they are seemingly more "normal", more like themselves, but still entrenched in replay.
is soooooooooo to-the-point. why is it that it's soooo hard to deal with someone seemngly "their own self" - minus the affection - "connection" -
it hurts waaaay more and makes me waaay more insulted than total the insanity and/or yelling or anything.
maybe it's too close a reminder of what we HAD? i've wondered alot howcome it's sooo bad to have in your face- it hurts, but kind of less, when it's off in some distance (the acting like being a young stud - instead of person he (was?) idk - that's the scary part- what if????? it's forever???
ooops - forgot - shelve the "what ifs" - okay- back on my mission to declutter my life today or die trying.
Hi Raine,
OW5 is only EA, and he has had tons of chances to be with her and doesn't. #5 I know very well. Old family friend, but H also knows I think very little of her. She abandoned her kids. I wonder if he doesn't take it further because this one I would have a hard time with or one more name he would need to confess? I don't get this one.
Because she is available? Because she gives him that attention he craves, enough of it though that he doesn't "need" more than EA type interaction? W had maybe a couple dozen virtual "boy-toys" at one point, some of whose pictures I saw back then (she wasn't very good about covering her tracks), and really, some I just don't get at all, aside from what I wrote above as the motivator. They are/were all using each other, ego gratification, distraction from themselves...
Anyway, just interested on your take on how things are changing with him and how he is towards me, but also him holding onto replay too. It is so hard seeing him be less and less alien and knowing he is still using women too. For him to want to have me as his companion, but his bits and bobs "secret" on the side.
Kind of sounds like he is trying to keep/start some connection, but not ready to re-commit...it's slow, and hard, as the posters above said. Reminds me of a meditation I read in an al-anon type book once where the question of the day was: "Am I ready to lose what I cannot commit to? ...."I don't have to decide today, I will commit or not when I am ready..." etc. Maybe H is somehow pondering this kind of question in the background, I think W has been for quite a while now. And yes, seeing the non-alien more is so hard, sometimes ya just wanna grab them by the scruff of the neck and pull them back over to this side of reality...but you can't...lol.
You're doing great Raine...cute toes and all...
Hi Raine. The thing to remember in all this is that the stages of MLC are a broad guideline. The MLCer will go through and back and around them before coming out the other side.
I think your h is slowly trying to reconcile the different parts of his life while working his way through the tunnel.
He is moving a bit closer to you, but, will be holding onto his other life for awhile, trying to figure it all out.
The hope is that eventually he realizes that he wants you and his marriage and so he must give up the other parts.
But it is difficult for them. They are in fear of feeling as if life has passed them by still.
He has a ways to go, but, he is going in the right direction.
It is going to be hard, Raine. You have to really dig in for this next part. But, I know you can do it.
Okay I'm on my phone but gotta post this so I remember it correctly. My goodness is this boy is chatty, guilty and wanting to spill the beans. These are things he said to me while we were out just now:
1-him talking about being called out on something minor by a friend:"I'm going to hell for much worse things than that."
2-me: "oh yeah I get it." Him: "do you? I don't get it as often as I used to." Me (laughing): "you trying to tell me something?" Him: "nope just being funny."
3: him: "let's get the biggest pack of fireworks and we'll have enough for New Years and next fourth too."
I got a lot to respond to. Will do that once I can get in front of a computer. Thank you everyone so much. Things make WAY more sense now. Hugs are on me!
Raine,
Whatever you do, listen and just let Chatty Boy chat away. You'll be surprised at what he has to say.
Hang in there!