Standing vs standing still - 02/03/20 06:22 AM
A new thread, a new title.
Old thread
https://www.divorcebusting.com/foru...ain=62413&Number=2883028#Post2883028
Old thread
https://www.divorcebusting.com/foru...
Re: Standing vs standing still - 02/03/20 06:56 AM
Quick summary ...
Oct 17 - Mar 18 : BD followed by 6 months of (him) I am moving out, I am not moving out, I love you but it's hopeless, anger, hate, and spite. Moments of tenderness. Slow detachment from family life. (Me) Begging, pleading, walking on eggshells in case he blows, trying to GAL but finding that that blows back on me (resentment).
Mar 18 - Dec 18 : becomes an excellent father. Takes the kids frequently, present, attentive. He starts to detach from me fully - though he is consciously trying to be kinder. Still very much a presence in the house. Occasionally we sleep together (initiated by me). Sept 18, I run into him on a night out with the girls. He is on a date. I go mental at him. Two days later we have an R talk (first since he moved out). He says it is only casual (3-4 dates, no sex). He does not say how he knows her. I beg him to come home. He hugs me and I try and initiate sex. He says no, it confuses him. We never talk about her again. Two days later a discussion about the children escalates (I am passive aggressive and hurt) and he mentions separation agreement, then he asks me if I want to join him and the children for lunch. I say no. We don' mention separation / divorce until Dec '20 (now). Christ '19. I tell him I still love him. He walks away. I start seeing someone at work in Dec. Casual. Nothing but a flirtation but it takes my mind of H.
Jan 19 - Dec 19: limbo. We do not talk about us EVER. We co-parent well and both concentrate on the kids. Occasional passive aggressiveness from him whenever I say no to a request or mention something that I am doing (outside the 'family'). His family slowly detach - embarrassment for me, loyalty for him. I stop seeing the boy in Jan 19 and then start OLD in June. I hate it and stop 3 weeks later. I discover he is OLD in July. Hurt, but no resentment on my part. Surprised but not surprised. I push it to back of mind and carry on. We are friendlier but not friends.
Present : we need to make some hard decisions about the family home (financial reasons). He wants me to keep it but financially it is an arbitross for me. D13 is suffering from anxiety and depression and he (we) think selling the house would break her. He guilts me for this. A week ago I found out he was 'chatting' on messenger to the lady who works in D10's school (back in late 2018). She turned bunny boiler on him so he stopped. Think it was friendly as opposed to flirty. He shouldn't have done it and I am embarrassed (as is he).Strangely, until about 2 days ago, we were sending messages to each other ALL day. About the house, about D13, about the separation, about the woman he was chatting too etc. He offered to help me with a couple of things around the house/my car. I came home the other day and he had cleaned the entire downstairs.
Then, 2 days ago I started to put a stop to it. Various conversations have escalated (home, D13) and I have made it clear that I do not like him treating the house like home. I have also made a few passive aggressive comments about what he has been doing the last two years. Hurt people hurt people. The last few days he has not come inside the house. He has waited in the car (when dropping the kids off) or waited at the door. When he has done this I have made a show of rushing the kids out ("quick kids, daddies waiting for you"). No 'do you want a cup of tea' etc. He has not been around to walk the dog. I have made it uncomfortable for him to be here.
I can feel myself slipping - I suspect he is seeing someone but not serious. I start looking at his Instagram (via the children) to work out who she is and randomly google people on his followers/following list. I feel stuck and am constantly thinking about what he is doing/thinking etc. I feels a bit like a tsunami - all the discussion about the house, D13, uncertainty about work, finding out he was talking to that woman and finally realising that he is dating someone. It is unhealthy and I have started seeing an IC (for me) and have engaged a solicitor. I am considering filing.
That my friend brings us to today. During this long and comfortable/uncomfortable limbo, there has been some amazing holidays, wonderful moments with the kids and moments of kindness and even friendship from H. He still keeps his secrets, but they are coming out now, slowly. I still don't think there was anyone at the start, and tbh, I don't think there has been anyone he has seriously considered since. Just a man who blew everything up and then was to ashamed to admit it - so he walked the path he'd made himself. When I am being rational, I will be able to accept that. Right now, hurt and feeling alone and a fool, it keeps me up at night.
Oct 17 - Mar 18 : BD followed by 6 months of (him) I am moving out, I am not moving out, I love you but it's hopeless, anger, hate, and spite. Moments of tenderness. Slow detachment from family life. (Me) Begging, pleading, walking on eggshells in case he blows, trying to GAL but finding that that blows back on me (resentment).
Mar 18 - Dec 18 : becomes an excellent father. Takes the kids frequently, present, attentive. He starts to detach from me fully - though he is consciously trying to be kinder. Still very much a presence in the house. Occasionally we sleep together (initiated by me). Sept 18, I run into him on a night out with the girls. He is on a date. I go mental at him. Two days later we have an R talk (first since he moved out). He says it is only casual (3-4 dates, no sex). He does not say how he knows her. I beg him to come home. He hugs me and I try and initiate sex. He says no, it confuses him. We never talk about her again. Two days later a discussion about the children escalates (I am passive aggressive and hurt) and he mentions separation agreement, then he asks me if I want to join him and the children for lunch. I say no. We don' mention separation / divorce until Dec '20 (now). Christ '19. I tell him I still love him. He walks away. I start seeing someone at work in Dec. Casual. Nothing but a flirtation but it takes my mind of H.
Jan 19 - Dec 19: limbo. We do not talk about us EVER. We co-parent well and both concentrate on the kids. Occasional passive aggressiveness from him whenever I say no to a request or mention something that I am doing (outside the 'family'). His family slowly detach - embarrassment for me, loyalty for him. I stop seeing the boy in Jan 19 and then start OLD in June. I hate it and stop 3 weeks later. I discover he is OLD in July. Hurt, but no resentment on my part. Surprised but not surprised. I push it to back of mind and carry on. We are friendlier but not friends.
Present : we need to make some hard decisions about the family home (financial reasons). He wants me to keep it but financially it is an arbitross for me. D13 is suffering from anxiety and depression and he (we) think selling the house would break her. He guilts me for this. A week ago I found out he was 'chatting' on messenger to the lady who works in D10's school (back in late 2018). She turned bunny boiler on him so he stopped. Think it was friendly as opposed to flirty. He shouldn't have done it and I am embarrassed (as is he).Strangely, until about 2 days ago, we were sending messages to each other ALL day. About the house, about D13, about the separation, about the woman he was chatting too etc. He offered to help me with a couple of things around the house/my car. I came home the other day and he had cleaned the entire downstairs.
Then, 2 days ago I started to put a stop to it. Various conversations have escalated (home, D13) and I have made it clear that I do not like him treating the house like home. I have also made a few passive aggressive comments about what he has been doing the last two years. Hurt people hurt people. The last few days he has not come inside the house. He has waited in the car (when dropping the kids off) or waited at the door. When he has done this I have made a show of rushing the kids out ("quick kids, daddies waiting for you"). No 'do you want a cup of tea' etc. He has not been around to walk the dog. I have made it uncomfortable for him to be here.
I can feel myself slipping - I suspect he is seeing someone but not serious. I start looking at his Instagram (via the children) to work out who she is and randomly google people on his followers/following list. I feel stuck and am constantly thinking about what he is doing/thinking etc. I feels a bit like a tsunami - all the discussion about the house, D13, uncertainty about work, finding out he was talking to that woman and finally realising that he is dating someone. It is unhealthy and I have started seeing an IC (for me) and have engaged a solicitor. I am considering filing.
That my friend brings us to today. During this long and comfortable/uncomfortable limbo, there has been some amazing holidays, wonderful moments with the kids and moments of kindness and even friendship from H. He still keeps his secrets, but they are coming out now, slowly. I still don't think there was anyone at the start, and tbh, I don't think there has been anyone he has seriously considered since. Just a man who blew everything up and then was to ashamed to admit it - so he walked the path he'd made himself. When I am being rational, I will be able to accept that. Right now, hurt and feeling alone and a fool, it keeps me up at night.
Re: Standing vs standing still - 02/03/20 02:33 PM
Gosh. Flysolo, I don’t know how you are holding yourself together all this time. It was painful enough to read through your summary. I wish I could offer any words of wisdom here, but all I can say is that I feel for you. And you are strong for holding out as long as you have. You are not a fool. We all make seemingly foolish decisions, it’s all about perspective. Hugs...
Re: Standing vs standing still - 02/03/20 11:13 PM
I'm glad you're seeing an IC to help with that "slipping" feeling. I leaned on mine as well when that was the overwhelming emotion in my life.
I know the feeling that you feel if you could just keep reliving it all in your brain you will notice the ONE THING that will pull it all together and allow it to make logical sense to you. That if you just keep at it - keep living it - you'll figure it out and survive it all.
For me, only when I started to put it all away and not relive it - that's when it started to make sense. And not in a lightbulb in the brain kind of way, but in a peaceful "I'm going to let this all go slowly and in my own time" kind of way. You need your subconscious to do the work for you - not your active brain.
Which doesn't help you now, because now you're neck deep in feeling it. I'm so sorry. It's the worst feeling.
I will echo Wooba though - you're not a fool. Not at all. You are the farthest thing in the world from a fool. A fool is someone who was duped. You are in a situation that simply changed because....life. You were a partnered couple, and then things changed - you were not tricked, you did not miss the signs. You lived your life fully with all the information available to you at the time. It's just that we all have free will and your H needed to change his life. He's not running away from you - he's running towards something he can't identify, so that looks a lot like running away. The result is the same maybe.
I know the feeling that you feel if you could just keep reliving it all in your brain you will notice the ONE THING that will pull it all together and allow it to make logical sense to you. That if you just keep at it - keep living it - you'll figure it out and survive it all.
For me, only when I started to put it all away and not relive it - that's when it started to make sense. And not in a lightbulb in the brain kind of way, but in a peaceful "I'm going to let this all go slowly and in my own time" kind of way. You need your subconscious to do the work for you - not your active brain.
Which doesn't help you now, because now you're neck deep in feeling it. I'm so sorry. It's the worst feeling.
I will echo Wooba though - you're not a fool. Not at all. You are the farthest thing in the world from a fool. A fool is someone who was duped. You are in a situation that simply changed because....life. You were a partnered couple, and then things changed - you were not tricked, you did not miss the signs. You lived your life fully with all the information available to you at the time. It's just that we all have free will and your H needed to change his life. He's not running away from you - he's running towards something he can't identify, so that looks a lot like running away. The result is the same maybe.
Re: Standing vs standing still - 02/04/20 01:42 AM
hi Flysolo,
Want to reiterate along with Wooba and Yail-- you are not a fool. Far from it. You lived your life with the expectations we all have and trusted your H to be there through thick and thin because you're supposed to be able to trust that person to be there for you and not to change their mind or whatever. To me, there is no purpose in seconding guess decisions you made in the past, or wishing you had noticed something sooner or done something differently-- you did the best you could with the tools you had at the time. Might you do things differently now or in the future? Of course-- and that is the best part of all of this, we are constantly learning and given opportunities to do better, learn from the hardest things and apply that to our future relationships.
A couple of questions or suggestions for you... can you resist the instagram searches? does it serve you? I mean, if it does-- if knowing he's dating someone else, and knowing who she is etc is helpful for you, then by all means. If not, if it is just a way for you to go in circles, then maybe try to resist. Another thought.. I have read about some of the fabulous vacations you've been on since all this (honestly, an inspiration for me) and am wondering if you can start planning another, even something quick and inexpensive, just to get a change of scenery and get your mind off of the current situation? Sometimes even the planning can be beneficial.
Hang in there. You are strong.
Want to reiterate along with Wooba and Yail-- you are not a fool. Far from it. You lived your life with the expectations we all have and trusted your H to be there through thick and thin because you're supposed to be able to trust that person to be there for you and not to change their mind or whatever. To me, there is no purpose in seconding guess decisions you made in the past, or wishing you had noticed something sooner or done something differently-- you did the best you could with the tools you had at the time. Might you do things differently now or in the future? Of course-- and that is the best part of all of this, we are constantly learning and given opportunities to do better, learn from the hardest things and apply that to our future relationships.
A couple of questions or suggestions for you... can you resist the instagram searches? does it serve you? I mean, if it does-- if knowing he's dating someone else, and knowing who she is etc is helpful for you, then by all means. If not, if it is just a way for you to go in circles, then maybe try to resist. Another thought.. I have read about some of the fabulous vacations you've been on since all this (honestly, an inspiration for me) and am wondering if you can start planning another, even something quick and inexpensive, just to get a change of scenery and get your mind off of the current situation? Sometimes even the planning can be beneficial.
Hang in there. You are strong.
Re: Standing vs standing still - 02/04/20 08:44 AM
Thanks everyone. Everything you say is true. I can get through this I just need to keep going. Fake it until I get out of the tunnels so to speak.
I saw the IC yesterday which helped. It seemed like a conversation between friends discussing neurological effect on the brain of different events. Words like dopamine, serotonin, amagdala blah blah blah. It was easy to forget we weren't just discussing theories and the topic was actually me. I did break down once - when she asked me if there was anyone who was there for me (and I think she knew the answer was no). I told her I missed that feeling of someone holding me and of feeling safe. We looked at the situations the tunnels hit and, unsurprisingly it is when my brain is free to wander. When I am alone or when I am on auto-pilot (walking, driving, sitting in meetings) so we are going to work on ways to bring myself out when my brain wanders and also at other 'wellness' approaches. Nothing really new and I know all that stuff already, but it was good to have the conversation.
I also went to a reiki healer last night - yes, I am throwing everything at this. I've seen him twice before, but the last time was about 9 months ago. It turns out he is a CBT therapist as well and he thinks the approaches compliment one another. For those unaffiliated, reiki is a practice of balancing chakras and releasing blockages. Might be complete hogwash, but I always feel lighter when I come out. You don't talk before the treatment and then you spend 15 minutes at the end talking about the blockages they felt. Anyway, he said that my brain is going a hundred miles an hour (no surprises) but the feeling he is getting is not sadness (self blame), it is anger. Controlled anger. I guess he is right. I am angry at the moment. He mentioned problems with my eldest child, trying to convince a man to agree to something, and anger, lots of anger.
***
As an aside, after the treatment, he normally asks me what I saw. I mentioned two images that didn't fit. One of them was of a group of teenage boys, maybe 18, in a carpark waiting for a lift. They all had white blond hair and are wearing the same bright yellow polo shirt. One of them looked right at me.
Straight after the session I checked my phone and I had three messages from someone I met when I was on the OLD. I haven't spoken or heard from him in 6 months. He has white blond hair, is young (25) and his profile photo has him standing in front of a bright yellow wall. We dated twice but, apart from the attraction, it was never going to work, and we both new it. We wished each other well and I didn't hear from him again.
Anyway, we exchanged a few polite msgs, then he asked if I was still single and I said yes, but I am not looking for anyone or anything right now. He said he understood and wished me well again.
The little ego boost was just what I needed whilst I am in this funk. Maybe there is something to this psychic thing and the universe does give you what you need when you need it
.
****
I also msged H when I was on my way home to see how the girls were. His responses were short and abrupt and he indirectly (though purposely) let know he did not take them back to the house after school as he normally does on a Monday. "We are just leaving the flat. We will stop by the house to get netball gear on way to training". "Girls fine. Back at the flat". He also did not bring our dog back yesterday until the evening. He normally brings her back during the day and takes her for a walk.
I spoke to him briefly when I got home. I noticed my tone was chirpy, "Oh, do you mind giving D13 money for the bus tomorrow" - there is nothing in it. It just does no-one any good if I push him into a corner and he comes out fighting because I am angry at him.
****
May - Yes, I can resist the instigram searches. It doesn't help and just feeds the tunnels. I have come to the realisation that I have been filling in the blanks and coming to the worse possible conclusion. I have no idea whether he is seeing someone or not. I think finding out about chatting to the woman in late Dec 18 threw me and has made me suspicious of him. He was supposed to be working on himself. Not sending texts to (a frankly unattractive and desperate) woman at my daughters school. A part of me knows that was the height of his depression and he was getting a little serotonin (see I remembered something from my session) high whenever she msged him. Much like the serotonin high I got when I got the messages from the boy yesterday. So I will stop.
I have no holidays planned at the moment, but H is taking the kids away half term. I might try and do a short break then if I can get away from work. I've been looking up four day yoga retreats in the UK, but can't find anything that fits with the dates. I will keep looking.
I saw the IC yesterday which helped. It seemed like a conversation between friends discussing neurological effect on the brain of different events. Words like dopamine, serotonin, amagdala blah blah blah. It was easy to forget we weren't just discussing theories and the topic was actually me. I did break down once - when she asked me if there was anyone who was there for me (and I think she knew the answer was no). I told her I missed that feeling of someone holding me and of feeling safe. We looked at the situations the tunnels hit and, unsurprisingly it is when my brain is free to wander. When I am alone or when I am on auto-pilot (walking, driving, sitting in meetings) so we are going to work on ways to bring myself out when my brain wanders and also at other 'wellness' approaches. Nothing really new and I know all that stuff already, but it was good to have the conversation.
I also went to a reiki healer last night - yes, I am throwing everything at this. I've seen him twice before, but the last time was about 9 months ago. It turns out he is a CBT therapist as well and he thinks the approaches compliment one another. For those unaffiliated, reiki is a practice of balancing chakras and releasing blockages. Might be complete hogwash, but I always feel lighter when I come out. You don't talk before the treatment and then you spend 15 minutes at the end talking about the blockages they felt. Anyway, he said that my brain is going a hundred miles an hour (no surprises) but the feeling he is getting is not sadness (self blame), it is anger. Controlled anger. I guess he is right. I am angry at the moment. He mentioned problems with my eldest child, trying to convince a man to agree to something, and anger, lots of anger.
***
As an aside, after the treatment, he normally asks me what I saw. I mentioned two images that didn't fit. One of them was of a group of teenage boys, maybe 18, in a carpark waiting for a lift. They all had white blond hair and are wearing the same bright yellow polo shirt. One of them looked right at me.
Straight after the session I checked my phone and I had three messages from someone I met when I was on the OLD. I haven't spoken or heard from him in 6 months. He has white blond hair, is young (25) and his profile photo has him standing in front of a bright yellow wall. We dated twice but, apart from the attraction, it was never going to work, and we both new it. We wished each other well and I didn't hear from him again.
Anyway, we exchanged a few polite msgs, then he asked if I was still single and I said yes, but I am not looking for anyone or anything right now. He said he understood and wished me well again.
The little ego boost was just what I needed whilst I am in this funk. Maybe there is something to this psychic thing and the universe does give you what you need when you need it
.****
I also msged H when I was on my way home to see how the girls were. His responses were short and abrupt and he indirectly (though purposely) let know he did not take them back to the house after school as he normally does on a Monday. "We are just leaving the flat. We will stop by the house to get netball gear on way to training". "Girls fine. Back at the flat". He also did not bring our dog back yesterday until the evening. He normally brings her back during the day and takes her for a walk.
I spoke to him briefly when I got home. I noticed my tone was chirpy, "Oh, do you mind giving D13 money for the bus tomorrow" - there is nothing in it. It just does no-one any good if I push him into a corner and he comes out fighting because I am angry at him.
****
May - Yes, I can resist the instigram searches. It doesn't help and just feeds the tunnels. I have come to the realisation that I have been filling in the blanks and coming to the worse possible conclusion. I have no idea whether he is seeing someone or not. I think finding out about chatting to the woman in late Dec 18 threw me and has made me suspicious of him. He was supposed to be working on himself. Not sending texts to (a frankly unattractive and desperate) woman at my daughters school. A part of me knows that was the height of his depression and he was getting a little serotonin (see I remembered something from my session) high whenever she msged him. Much like the serotonin high I got when I got the messages from the boy yesterday. So I will stop.
I have no holidays planned at the moment, but H is taking the kids away half term. I might try and do a short break then if I can get away from work. I've been looking up four day yoga retreats in the UK, but can't find anything that fits with the dates. I will keep looking.
Re: Standing vs standing still - 02/04/20 10:15 AM
Hi FS, I'm so glad you're in IC, very wise. As for the reiki, whatever works for you! Of course you are struggling with anger, it's such a natural response. You're right though about jumping to the worst conclusions. But when you have no information then your mind will fill in the gaps with the worst possible interpretation.
You don't sound like you like your H or trust him much right now. I am feeling the same way. Has your job sitch resolved yet? I am going through a transition, and not having a spouse to lean on and confide in is the hardest thing of all, especially as they have caused this extra huge upheaval in our lives.
A yoga retreat sounds like a very fine idea indeed. If you can't find something for those dates, maybe a walking/active holiday might be a good alternative? Escaping from the life crap and getting a new perspective is pretty essential right now, mired in the long slow torture of limbo xxx
You don't sound like you like your H or trust him much right now. I am feeling the same way. Has your job sitch resolved yet? I am going through a transition, and not having a spouse to lean on and confide in is the hardest thing of all, especially as they have caused this extra huge upheaval in our lives.
A yoga retreat sounds like a very fine idea indeed. If you can't find something for those dates, maybe a walking/active holiday might be a good alternative? Escaping from the life crap and getting a new perspective is pretty essential right now, mired in the long slow torture of limbo xxx
Re: Standing vs standing still - 02/04/20 04:52 PM
I feel your pain. I have a front row seat to how often H is out (it's 97% of the time). Super painful. I'm in a trauma support group (I like the friends) and it helps. I feel duped for being treated like I'm too stupid to know there is OW. I feel discarded, abandoned, like he doesn't have a care in the world. He's happy and I am not. [censored].
Re: Standing vs standing still - 02/07/20 06:56 AM
Hi - sorry I'm not responding as much. Things have been utterly crazy in my life the last week. I can't even start to describe what it's been like.
Dilly - I don't like my H very much at the moment. He has lied and lied and covered things up and blamed all whilst maintaining the veil of 'good father doing what's right for the children'.
There was truth in the story with the woman from years ago. It doesn't matter to be honest. The truth lies somewhere between what he has admitted too (his version didn't add up and my over analytical brain picked up the gaps and called him on it, so he would amend his story) and her version, well her version is totally bonkers. The only thing that they do agree on is that she became obsessed and he had to block her on every front. The thing that gets me is this was over a year and a half ago and, if she did become a stalker, he kept that hidden from EVERYONE. I mean, his version includes drunk dialling the obsessed desperate woman at our daughters school, so even though he swears "I didn't do anything wrong" there has to be some guilt/shame in there. My H likes to project control and 'perfect home, perfect career, perfect father' so to keep a secret like drunk dialling a crazy woman then having said crazy woman message him constantly and turn up at his flat and still go to that school everyday and pretend nothings wrong. To receive crazy obsessive messages from her and then have lunch with me and the girls. D@mn, either he is a very good actor or a complete sociopath.
But what gets me. What makes me really mad is that he engaged at all, even if his "I got drunk sometimes and responded to her" version is the truth. When it came out, why pretend it was nothing and then now that people are making a big deal of it (me apparently), say "well, I was single, she was single so even if something happened, and it didn't, why should anyone care". I care because he hid it. Why keep lying to me - and the answer is, because he didn't want anyone to know, and more importantly he didn't want me to know. I remember what it was like back then. He was so suspicious of me (where are you off to tonight, you're never home anymore, you don't spend any time with the children, you're always doing yoga) and there he was messaging and drunk dialling the school secretary. Such a two faced hypocrite.
Dilly - I don't like my H very much at the moment. He has lied and lied and covered things up and blamed all whilst maintaining the veil of 'good father doing what's right for the children'.
There was truth in the story with the woman from years ago. It doesn't matter to be honest. The truth lies somewhere between what he has admitted too (his version didn't add up and my over analytical brain picked up the gaps and called him on it, so he would amend his story) and her version, well her version is totally bonkers. The only thing that they do agree on is that she became obsessed and he had to block her on every front. The thing that gets me is this was over a year and a half ago and, if she did become a stalker, he kept that hidden from EVERYONE. I mean, his version includes drunk dialling the obsessed desperate woman at our daughters school, so even though he swears "I didn't do anything wrong" there has to be some guilt/shame in there. My H likes to project control and 'perfect home, perfect career, perfect father' so to keep a secret like drunk dialling a crazy woman then having said crazy woman message him constantly and turn up at his flat and still go to that school everyday and pretend nothings wrong. To receive crazy obsessive messages from her and then have lunch with me and the girls. D@mn, either he is a very good actor or a complete sociopath.
But what gets me. What makes me really mad is that he engaged at all, even if his "I got drunk sometimes and responded to her" version is the truth. When it came out, why pretend it was nothing and then now that people are making a big deal of it (me apparently), say "well, I was single, she was single so even if something happened, and it didn't, why should anyone care". I care because he hid it. Why keep lying to me - and the answer is, because he didn't want anyone to know, and more importantly he didn't want me to know. I remember what it was like back then. He was so suspicious of me (where are you off to tonight, you're never home anymore, you don't spend any time with the children, you're always doing yoga) and there he was messaging and drunk dialling the school secretary. Such a two faced hypocrite.
Re: Standing vs standing still - 02/07/20 08:01 PM
In the craziness of the last two weeks, I forgot to actually post the question that led to the thread title change ...
When does standing become standing still???
I wonder sometimes if I still wait for him because I don't know how else to be and waiting is actually an unhealthy state which is stopping me from living a full life. A form of procrastination.
When does it become unhealthy ??? I have GAL'd, I am (apart from the last two weeks) detached, I have 180'd (on most things) and I am a better person for it all, but I am still stuck. I now have friends I can call on, and I am comfortable being alone. But still I am stuck and closed off to the possibility of a relationship with anyone but him.
This week I was contacted by someone I dated once or twice last year and he expressed interest in starting again - I told him firmly but politely that I was not interested. This week alone, I've been asked out for drinks by two platonic male friends, who I know would like to take it further, and last week another male friend (who expressed interest earlier this year) was at a drinks thing I was at and I was told last night he had asked beforehand if I was going to be there and then only agreed once he found out I was going. So, opportunities are there. Why am I not interested ...
I am not sure what the answer is ... other than I can only go with how I feel and how I feel is not interested.
Journalling
I am less angry now. H and I had a talk about the bunny boiler and he showed me the messages he sent her last night. They basically say stop telling lies or we will be forced to raise a complaint with the school. I still think he's not telling me everything, but at this point, I am willing to just let it be. It is interesting though that even though his version of the story shows him drunken flirting with her on text (and by drunken flirting I assume it was sexting) he still maintains that he did nothing wrong. He didn't - he was single. But as he is in his 40's and she's a crazy, gossipy teachers assistant, then he has to see that this represented poor judgement on his part.
Things I am noting about what's happened:
1. I am not in constant floods of tears like I was in the early months of my sitch. It has taken up a lot of my mental real estate and will likely continue to do so, but I feel in control of my actions. The motivation is emotional, but the execution is rational.
2. I had always thought when he hit rock bottom he would question his choices. But has far as I could see, he hadn't hit rock bottom - he was always projecting a 'I am SO much happier now' demeanour. Knowing that he was drunken texting and then being stalked by a crazy person in the background would have been rock bottom for him. Maybe he presents a 'life is perfect' face (to me) and actually, underneath it all, his life actually s**ks. Did it make him question his choices? I think it probably did. But he is too proud and too stubborn to admit it. And that's just plain sad.
3. This has motivated me to be more proactive about things and not so scared to rock the 'limbo' boat. All through this I've been passive. Just living my life and letting him live his. Intuitively and through the teachings here, staying away from R talks - this was easy, he avoided them too - so as not to put any pressure and/or push him into a corner. But it's been two years. Those talks (indirectly) have to be had. We need to discuss separating formally and deciding what we will do in regards to the house and the children. I am not saying I am not scared about having those conversations, but we cannot go on as we are.
Having said all that, I threw my cards on the table when I sent the email about the house options. I figured what was left to lose. On the current trajectory we will be divorced in six months and we will have sold the house. So I put it out there. I said I wanted any decision to be based on all the facts and not on assumptions and half truths. I told him I still loved him and would turn the page on this chapter if he was open to trying again. Not move back in and pretend it didn't happen - but hold off on selling the house whilst we tried to make it work. That was the opening paragraph to the email - the rest was practicalities about the house and childcare. He responded on the house stuff but not the I love you. Acted like that paragraph wasn't even there. His response on the house was clear - he does not want to sell it and he does not want to continue to give me any money for the bills.
But he has been very very communicative on other fronts. I spend more time messaging him throughout the day than I do working (it's annoying my boss) - children, house, crazy stalker lady, some banter etc. Today we spent time alone discussing crazy stalker lady - he showed me texts from her the other night where he told her to stop or he would complain to the school, and her responses as well. Six months ago he would not have entertained even having the conversation. I can't remember the last time we went into another room, shut the door and talked. I would be interested in hearing views on this. Is the increased willingness to communicate him getting comfortable that limbo is coming to a close or is it him getting uncomfortable that limbo is coming to a close.
When does standing become standing still???
I wonder sometimes if I still wait for him because I don't know how else to be and waiting is actually an unhealthy state which is stopping me from living a full life. A form of procrastination.
When does it become unhealthy ??? I have GAL'd, I am (apart from the last two weeks) detached, I have 180'd (on most things) and I am a better person for it all, but I am still stuck. I now have friends I can call on, and I am comfortable being alone. But still I am stuck and closed off to the possibility of a relationship with anyone but him.
This week I was contacted by someone I dated once or twice last year and he expressed interest in starting again - I told him firmly but politely that I was not interested. This week alone, I've been asked out for drinks by two platonic male friends, who I know would like to take it further, and last week another male friend (who expressed interest earlier this year) was at a drinks thing I was at and I was told last night he had asked beforehand if I was going to be there and then only agreed once he found out I was going. So, opportunities are there. Why am I not interested ...
I am not sure what the answer is ... other than I can only go with how I feel and how I feel is not interested.
Journalling
I am less angry now. H and I had a talk about the bunny boiler and he showed me the messages he sent her last night. They basically say stop telling lies or we will be forced to raise a complaint with the school. I still think he's not telling me everything, but at this point, I am willing to just let it be. It is interesting though that even though his version of the story shows him drunken flirting with her on text (and by drunken flirting I assume it was sexting) he still maintains that he did nothing wrong. He didn't - he was single. But as he is in his 40's and she's a crazy, gossipy teachers assistant, then he has to see that this represented poor judgement on his part.
Things I am noting about what's happened:
1. I am not in constant floods of tears like I was in the early months of my sitch. It has taken up a lot of my mental real estate and will likely continue to do so, but I feel in control of my actions. The motivation is emotional, but the execution is rational.
2. I had always thought when he hit rock bottom he would question his choices. But has far as I could see, he hadn't hit rock bottom - he was always projecting a 'I am SO much happier now' demeanour. Knowing that he was drunken texting and then being stalked by a crazy person in the background would have been rock bottom for him. Maybe he presents a 'life is perfect' face (to me) and actually, underneath it all, his life actually s**ks. Did it make him question his choices? I think it probably did. But he is too proud and too stubborn to admit it. And that's just plain sad.
3. This has motivated me to be more proactive about things and not so scared to rock the 'limbo' boat. All through this I've been passive. Just living my life and letting him live his. Intuitively and through the teachings here, staying away from R talks - this was easy, he avoided them too - so as not to put any pressure and/or push him into a corner. But it's been two years. Those talks (indirectly) have to be had. We need to discuss separating formally and deciding what we will do in regards to the house and the children. I am not saying I am not scared about having those conversations, but we cannot go on as we are.
Having said all that, I threw my cards on the table when I sent the email about the house options. I figured what was left to lose. On the current trajectory we will be divorced in six months and we will have sold the house. So I put it out there. I said I wanted any decision to be based on all the facts and not on assumptions and half truths. I told him I still loved him and would turn the page on this chapter if he was open to trying again. Not move back in and pretend it didn't happen - but hold off on selling the house whilst we tried to make it work. That was the opening paragraph to the email - the rest was practicalities about the house and childcare. He responded on the house stuff but not the I love you. Acted like that paragraph wasn't even there. His response on the house was clear - he does not want to sell it and he does not want to continue to give me any money for the bills.
But he has been very very communicative on other fronts. I spend more time messaging him throughout the day than I do working (it's annoying my boss) - children, house, crazy stalker lady, some banter etc. Today we spent time alone discussing crazy stalker lady - he showed me texts from her the other night where he told her to stop or he would complain to the school, and her responses as well. Six months ago he would not have entertained even having the conversation. I can't remember the last time we went into another room, shut the door and talked. I would be interested in hearing views on this. Is the increased willingness to communicate him getting comfortable that limbo is coming to a close or is it him getting uncomfortable that limbo is coming to a close.
Re: Standing vs standing still - 02/07/20 11:19 PM
Hi FlySolo,
Couple of thoughts:
My H is very similar in that (besides yes, was a pilot, though not anymore) I think if he walks he will *need* to prove to himself for a good long time that he made the right decision. It is such a major decision and affects other people in such profound ways that I can't him doing anything that major and being willing to admit to himself that it was a mistake. That is simply not in his DNA and I suspect the same with yours as well.
There are probably ways in which his life *is* happier, simpler, easier now than before. There are probably ways in which it isn't and there probably is a side of him that is deeply regretting the choices he made, but he can't admit that or otherwise it means hurting you and the children was not necessary and the guilt involved with that is probably too much for him to bear at this point.
Here's my question for you. (This is not DB.) What do you have to lose by telling him, in person, how you feel and saying that paragraph that he ignored from your email? If he is as stubborn and proud as you say, he is not going to be the one to say it first, and maybe too proud to respond to it in an email. But if it is your truth, and telling him will let you know you can indeed move forward with formally separating or filing or coming to a decision on the house etc without regrets, I would do it. As long as you can take whatever he says without getting emotional and can then move onto the questions of the house and other decisions that need to be made, and that you aren't coming across as pushy, or begging-- just calmly stating where you are, so that he knows. (BTW I would think setting on this one would be important, making sure the timing is right, he's not tired or crabby or whatever.)
Another idea... I don't recall if you guys were ever in MC or not, but maybe you could suggest a visit or series of visits specifically to work out the communication around what happens next. I know some folks do that in the mediation process but I also know that there are MCs who will work with couples who are separating/divorcing on their communication, and this could also be an opportunity for you guys to explore if this is indeed the right step for you given where you both are right now, and with the decisions that need to be made on the house.
What if you mapped out like a logic model all the different paths you could take and the various potential outcomes? Are there any you are vehemently against? Would talking to him and telling him how you feel possibly send you down a path you don't want to go?
It seems like you are stuck. if he is really done, maybe you need to hear it from him in order to let him go and move on emotionally and be receptive to the idea of an R with someone else. Maybe not. But if you're feeling where you are is no longer tenable, what are the things within your control that you can do to possibly move you forward?
Finally...
Does it matter? You might only know if you ask. (But the weird thing is that his stance on the house seems like he is trying to extend the limbo. What does he expect you do to in this situation? Moving back in does seem rather logical *if* he was willing to do so.
HUGS. This has got to be so difficult.
Couple of thoughts:
My H is very similar in that (besides yes, was a pilot, though not anymore) I think if he walks he will *need* to prove to himself for a good long time that he made the right decision. It is such a major decision and affects other people in such profound ways that I can't him doing anything that major and being willing to admit to himself that it was a mistake. That is simply not in his DNA and I suspect the same with yours as well.
There are probably ways in which his life *is* happier, simpler, easier now than before. There are probably ways in which it isn't and there probably is a side of him that is deeply regretting the choices he made, but he can't admit that or otherwise it means hurting you and the children was not necessary and the guilt involved with that is probably too much for him to bear at this point.
Here's my question for you. (This is not DB.) What do you have to lose by telling him, in person, how you feel and saying that paragraph that he ignored from your email? If he is as stubborn and proud as you say, he is not going to be the one to say it first, and maybe too proud to respond to it in an email. But if it is your truth, and telling him will let you know you can indeed move forward with formally separating or filing or coming to a decision on the house etc without regrets, I would do it. As long as you can take whatever he says without getting emotional and can then move onto the questions of the house and other decisions that need to be made, and that you aren't coming across as pushy, or begging-- just calmly stating where you are, so that he knows. (BTW I would think setting on this one would be important, making sure the timing is right, he's not tired or crabby or whatever.)
Another idea... I don't recall if you guys were ever in MC or not, but maybe you could suggest a visit or series of visits specifically to work out the communication around what happens next. I know some folks do that in the mediation process but I also know that there are MCs who will work with couples who are separating/divorcing on their communication, and this could also be an opportunity for you guys to explore if this is indeed the right step for you given where you both are right now, and with the decisions that need to be made on the house.
What if you mapped out like a logic model all the different paths you could take and the various potential outcomes? Are there any you are vehemently against? Would talking to him and telling him how you feel possibly send you down a path you don't want to go?
It seems like you are stuck. if he is really done, maybe you need to hear it from him in order to let him go and move on emotionally and be receptive to the idea of an R with someone else. Maybe not. But if you're feeling where you are is no longer tenable, what are the things within your control that you can do to possibly move you forward?
Finally...
Originally Posted by FlySolo
Is the increased willingness to communicate him getting comfortable that limbo is coming to a close or is it him getting uncomfortable that limbo is coming to a close.
Does it matter? You might only know if you ask. (But the weird thing is that his stance on the house seems like he is trying to extend the limbo. What does he expect you do to in this situation? Moving back in does seem rather logical *if* he was willing to do so.
HUGS. This has got to be so difficult.
Re: Standing vs standing still - 02/08/20 03:47 AM
Originally Posted by FlySolo
I remember what it was like back then. He was so suspicious of me (where are you off to tonight, you're never home anymore, you don't spend any time with the children, you're always doing yoga) and there he was messaging and drunk dialling the school secretary. Such a two faced hypocrite.
The gaslighting. I think most of us have experienced a touch of this. Projecting their guilt, but we feel like the crazy ones. I hope in time you are able to release this visceral memory. Mine is becoming fainter, if that helps to know.
Originally Posted by FlySolo
I am still stuck. I now have friends I can call on, and I am comfortable being alone. But still I am stuck and closed off to the possibility of a relationship with anyone but him.
You mention being stuck only as it relates to your H. Are you stuck in all areas of your life? Or just this one area?
Originally Posted by FlySolo
I am not sure what the answer is ... other than I can only go with how I feel and how I feel is not interested.
And that's okay. Many days I am also uninterested, and our situations are different. You don't have to be interested in someone else and it doesn't make you broken or stuck. It's just what you're feeling right now. It really is okay.
We're different now than we were before this started. Maybe part of the process is that we must spend additional time with ourselves before we become interested again. I don't want to just toss myself (my former self) back out there and make the same mistakes. Maybe I need more time to enjoy learning about this new Yail. Maybe you need some time to discover the new DV, and that might be a quiet process.
Besides, it is WAY more interesting to learn about the new DV being uncovered than learning about any potential new lover.
*******
I'm glad H is more communicative. I'm not sure that the reason matters. If it is suiting your needs (lessens your anxiety and fear of the unknown, allows you to know where he's at, makes coparenting easier) then this is a very good thing no matter what the outcome. Accept his openness. Bare minimum you get is an improved coparent which is an AWESOME thing to have.
I'm glad you put yourself out there in the letter. Now you can simply keep moving forward with the decisions that suit you. You can continue to discuss the house. But you don't have to wonder if he knows. You don't have to have the fear of putting yourself out there - you did it.
I'm hearing small steps forward with some of the fear missing from your prior posts. A bit less fear of the unknown. A bit more trust in yourself. I'm sorry you feel stuck, but I think you're close to being unstuck. I think you're actually moving forward in a measured, calm pace. The scenery is just similar right now.
Re: Standing vs standing still - 02/08/20 08:46 AM
FS: it seems like the stuff about the woman at school really triggered you, that's very understandable! It's surprising the amount you can still suffer even after standing all this time. But I feel like you're bouncing back. Your H's behaviour is perplexing, the way it can be interpreted as wanting D and R at the same time. He's certainly not willing to let go right now is he? You talk about moving on as if it has to involve another R: does it? I know how lonely it is to stand, and how hard it will be to trust people in the future. You dated before and realised you weren't ready, you still aren't. I feel like you need to heal a bit more before you're ready for a new R, maybe that is why you have no attraction to other men right now. I have no advice, just empathy for you with H clinging on as mine is. Maybe at some stage we will shake them free when we're ready. Thinking about time is not that helpful here, I know you need to resolve the house stuff but you can do that and stay in limbo a little longer. The gift of time, remember. We get impatient, but it takes time to heal and it takes time to unravel a M properly and forgive. And it's not a linear process. I was talking to a bloke the other day and he told me about his sister, she lives with her current H and her ex-H. I could kind of understand how such a strange situation could come about! The bond you have with your spouse is so strong I'm not sure you can ever break it. Make the best house situation you can whilst assuming nothing from your H. Keep on healing. Be patient. Life moves on by itself even when you are standing still.
Re: Standing vs standing still - 02/08/20 09:12 AM
May - I read through the entirety of your last thread and every sentence (apart from the PA) resonated with me. I think the differences lie in your H recognises and articulates he still wants you in his life, that he still cares. The other difference is right until BD, he hadn't stopped seeing me s a 'partner'. We were regularly intimate and it was not just a 'we should get this out of the way' type of intimacy. He didn't see me as someone he still wanted in his life, the mother of his children, he saw me as a lover.
I'm not sure how far back on my thread you've read, but I was the one who triggered BD. He was sullen and angry for months, but it was I who said there were problems and "we should separate whilst we are still friends", "and young enough to rebuild" and it feels like 'we are just going through the motions of being married' that very first argument. I don't know why I said it, maybe to shock him into realising what was in jeopardy. He kept going back to those words during MC (yes, we went) saying that these were the very words that went round and round in his head. He hadn't thought them himself - he knew he was unhappy - but hadn't attributed a story or cause to that feeling. I handed him the story and he ran with it. Got more and more angry as the months went on. Couldn't look me in the face, and if he was forced to, it was either with a look of hatred or disgust - unless I'd somehow managed to get him to have sex with me, in which case he would look me straight in the eyes through the whole thing, and what I would see was confusion, sadness and love, and when it was over, he would tidy himself up and pretend it didn't happen. Now, well, I think he is in the same place as your H. He wants me in his life (though can't articulate it) but even if he wanted me to be his W again he would never admit it. The story about the crazy stalker lady highlights how much he has hidden and how far he fell but he will never say anything because it 'goes against his DNA'.
Sidebar - his response to "whilst we're young enough to rebuild" - "you're already thinking about being with other people". A touch ironic looking back now.
I take your point, telling him in person will make him respond. But is ignoring the "I love you" not in itself a response? I don't know, I will ponder it. There is fear there as well. If it's written, then I have the time and space to process. If we do it in person and he rejects me, I will be exposed. I may revert to begging and pleading and crying. Fear.
We did do MC. When I could get him to go (which was infrequent, we cancelled more than we attended) I sat there and watched him process and find a home (me) for his unhappiness. He was building the hate narrative in front of me. Cherry picking the worst parts of our marriage, and poisoning the good parts. When I called to cancel our last ever appointment, the MC said she didn't think she could offer the flexibility (in terms of schedule) demanded by my H and that was the end of that.
I like your idea about the parenting/communication counselling. But we communicate fine when it comes to the kids and we are the poster children for co-parenting so it will be a difficult one to sell without it seeming like there is an agenda, especially now that I have let him know I still want to work on our M. I will think about it some more.
Yes, he is trying to extend the limbo. He has given me a host of reasons (house value is too low, the effect on the girls and their schooling, I won't find anywhere else cheaper that is of the same quality blah blah blah) which actually are valid so it is difficult to see if he is thinking with his rational brain (finance/children) or his emotional one (I want them to stay in the house because that keeps FS there and everything will be as it was if I return). Probably a bit of both.
I'm glad yours has faded. You never talk about XW anymore and I guess this is partly because she is no longer a presence in your life (something you feared for a long time) and nor do you need her to be. You were forced to cross that bridge (she moved away) and found that there was nothing to fear. It is an inspiration though Yail. I love reading your posts. Even the melancholy full of flu posts.
I don't think he will ever be a non-presence in my life - so the only person who can choose to cross that bridge and face that fear is me.
I am only stuck as it relates to my H (though this has a lot of 'strings' that come off of it - where I live, my GAL schedule). I am fine in other aspects. Work, whilst still uncertain, is going well, I have a social life and my kids are doing OK (for the moment). I guess it is fear again. Fear of never being able to open up to another person.
I will ponder telling him in person. I don't know if the opportunity will ever arise. We are rarely in the same room alone - I had to ask him to come into the study in order to have the conversation about the crazy lady.
I'm not sure how far back on my thread you've read, but I was the one who triggered BD. He was sullen and angry for months, but it was I who said there were problems and "we should separate whilst we are still friends", "and young enough to rebuild" and it feels like 'we are just going through the motions of being married' that very first argument. I don't know why I said it, maybe to shock him into realising what was in jeopardy. He kept going back to those words during MC (yes, we went) saying that these were the very words that went round and round in his head. He hadn't thought them himself - he knew he was unhappy - but hadn't attributed a story or cause to that feeling. I handed him the story and he ran with it. Got more and more angry as the months went on. Couldn't look me in the face, and if he was forced to, it was either with a look of hatred or disgust - unless I'd somehow managed to get him to have sex with me, in which case he would look me straight in the eyes through the whole thing, and what I would see was confusion, sadness and love, and when it was over, he would tidy himself up and pretend it didn't happen. Now, well, I think he is in the same place as your H. He wants me in his life (though can't articulate it) but even if he wanted me to be his W again he would never admit it. The story about the crazy stalker lady highlights how much he has hidden and how far he fell but he will never say anything because it 'goes against his DNA'.
Sidebar - his response to "whilst we're young enough to rebuild" - "you're already thinking about being with other people". A touch ironic looking back now.
Originally Posted by may22
What do you have to lose by telling him, in person, how you feel and saying that paragraph that he ignored from your email?
I take your point, telling him in person will make him respond. But is ignoring the "I love you" not in itself a response? I don't know, I will ponder it. There is fear there as well. If it's written, then I have the time and space to process. If we do it in person and he rejects me, I will be exposed. I may revert to begging and pleading and crying. Fear.
We did do MC. When I could get him to go (which was infrequent, we cancelled more than we attended) I sat there and watched him process and find a home (me) for his unhappiness. He was building the hate narrative in front of me. Cherry picking the worst parts of our marriage, and poisoning the good parts. When I called to cancel our last ever appointment, the MC said she didn't think she could offer the flexibility (in terms of schedule) demanded by my H and that was the end of that.
I like your idea about the parenting/communication counselling. But we communicate fine when it comes to the kids and we are the poster children for co-parenting so it will be a difficult one to sell without it seeming like there is an agenda, especially now that I have let him know I still want to work on our M. I will think about it some more.
Yes, he is trying to extend the limbo. He has given me a host of reasons (house value is too low, the effect on the girls and their schooling, I won't find anywhere else cheaper that is of the same quality blah blah blah) which actually are valid so it is difficult to see if he is thinking with his rational brain (finance/children) or his emotional one (I want them to stay in the house because that keeps FS there and everything will be as it was if I return). Probably a bit of both.
Originally Posted by Yail
The gaslighting ... Mine is becoming fainter, if that helps to know.
I'm glad yours has faded. You never talk about XW anymore and I guess this is partly because she is no longer a presence in your life (something you feared for a long time) and nor do you need her to be. You were forced to cross that bridge (she moved away) and found that there was nothing to fear. It is an inspiration though Yail. I love reading your posts. Even the melancholy full of flu posts.
I don't think he will ever be a non-presence in my life - so the only person who can choose to cross that bridge and face that fear is me.
I am only stuck as it relates to my H (though this has a lot of 'strings' that come off of it - where I live, my GAL schedule). I am fine in other aspects. Work, whilst still uncertain, is going well, I have a social life and my kids are doing OK (for the moment). I guess it is fear again. Fear of never being able to open up to another person.
I will ponder telling him in person. I don't know if the opportunity will ever arise. We are rarely in the same room alone - I had to ask him to come into the study in order to have the conversation about the crazy lady.
Re: Standing vs standing still - 02/12/20 07:10 AM
I have been lurking this past week - and I have to say the support overall that women (and men) in this community give to one another is inspiring. There has been one post that put me off posting, and that might be why it's taken a little longer to do this update. There was a comment about being annoyed at how some women here ruminate about their H's. This felt insulting somehow and whilst I don't think it was addressed purely at me, it did feel a little insulting.
This should be a safe place to think about our sitch's - to consider, to seek advice, and to vent and so for a large part this means the focus is going to be on our WAs. It is a healing process and what I am seeking, and also (hopefully) provide) is validation, an occasional 2x4, and the odd congratulation for things that go well. We have all been where the other stands and it is surprising to me when I read posts which are obviously lacking in empathy and compassion. Yes, some of the 2x4's are painful, but these too are delivered with empathy and compassion and the wellbeing of the poster in mind.
*******
Anyway, journalling:
Things seem to be going at some speed at the moment and the moment, if I am honest the pace is being driven by me. I think the house will likely be sold, and the separation finalised by the summer (if not the divorce). I am the driving force behind the sale, he has put up objections at every. He clearly wants to have the children more (next months schedule includes one full week plus 8 additional random days spread out over two weeks - 1 week he is on call and cannot have the children), but whether this is to up his days in preparation for mediation, or because he truly wants them, is unknown. Bit of both. He was always a family man and I sense that now he has lived the 'single' life for sometime, he has found it empty and wants to focus on his family (this is probably exacerbated by the sense of losing the home/me). I do not think he found what he wanted, so he is trying to salvage what he can without admitting fault or facing his own guilt.
Where does this leave me. Accepting of my fate, whatever that is. Trying not to push too much in one direction or another and trying not to be driven by anger (which is actually a problem right now).
It is strange, he acts like he is fine about selling the house and I act like I am ok with him having the kids more. I send him a message saying "I'm preparing the house, do you want x" and he replies, "Sure - just put it in the garage" or he sends me the roster (the one with the kids staying with him 15 nights) and I say "Perfect. Thanks".
This should be a safe place to think about our sitch's - to consider, to seek advice, and to vent and so for a large part this means the focus is going to be on our WAs. It is a healing process and what I am seeking, and also (hopefully) provide) is validation, an occasional 2x4, and the odd congratulation for things that go well. We have all been where the other stands and it is surprising to me when I read posts which are obviously lacking in empathy and compassion. Yes, some of the 2x4's are painful, but these too are delivered with empathy and compassion and the wellbeing of the poster in mind.
*******
Anyway, journalling:
Things seem to be going at some speed at the moment and the moment, if I am honest the pace is being driven by me. I think the house will likely be sold, and the separation finalised by the summer (if not the divorce). I am the driving force behind the sale, he has put up objections at every. He clearly wants to have the children more (next months schedule includes one full week plus 8 additional random days spread out over two weeks - 1 week he is on call and cannot have the children), but whether this is to up his days in preparation for mediation, or because he truly wants them, is unknown. Bit of both. He was always a family man and I sense that now he has lived the 'single' life for sometime, he has found it empty and wants to focus on his family (this is probably exacerbated by the sense of losing the home/me). I do not think he found what he wanted, so he is trying to salvage what he can without admitting fault or facing his own guilt.
Where does this leave me. Accepting of my fate, whatever that is. Trying not to push too much in one direction or another and trying not to be driven by anger (which is actually a problem right now).
It is strange, he acts like he is fine about selling the house and I act like I am ok with him having the kids more. I send him a message saying "I'm preparing the house, do you want x" and he replies, "Sure - just put it in the garage" or he sends me the roster (the one with the kids staying with him 15 nights) and I say "Perfect. Thanks".
Re: Standing vs standing still - 02/12/20 07:24 AM
Hi FS,
Hoping you are doing OK and want to just say that I (and many others) are here for you. I am going to read through your whole thread-- I don't think I started at the beginning. I think our Hs are very similar in a lot of ways, and if mine does decide to go he will be very much like yours, unwilling to admit, ever, that (if) he made a mistake.
Can you talk more about the anger? Are you not OK with him having the kids more? (No judgment, I wouldn't be either... I am actually haunted right now by the idea that if I just say please go I'll get a better deal on the back end in terms of the house and the kids when he's still feeling guilty). Or is it more generally to be in this situation and his unwillingness/inability to really examine what has happened and if this is the best path for all of you-- including the children-- going forward?
Any positives about the house sale? Any ideas about where you want to live next?
Hoping you are doing OK and want to just say that I (and many others) are here for you. I am going to read through your whole thread-- I don't think I started at the beginning. I think our Hs are very similar in a lot of ways, and if mine does decide to go he will be very much like yours, unwilling to admit, ever, that (if) he made a mistake.
Can you talk more about the anger? Are you not OK with him having the kids more? (No judgment, I wouldn't be either... I am actually haunted right now by the idea that if I just say please go I'll get a better deal on the back end in terms of the house and the kids when he's still feeling guilty). Or is it more generally to be in this situation and his unwillingness/inability to really examine what has happened and if this is the best path for all of you-- including the children-- going forward?
Any positives about the house sale? Any ideas about where you want to live next?
Re: Standing vs standing still - 02/12/20 11:45 AM
No need to read my threads from the beginning. I think the summary at the start of this thread pretty much covers it.
I have been here a while now and your sitch I think most resemble mine. I wish I could give you sage advice from back then. I will say you are handling it with a level of intelligence, dignity and humor that, when I was back in your shoes (pre-moving out) I could have used. I was an emotional mess. But then, at the time, he was a hate spewing monster. My H does not have the level of emotional development that yours has. I don't know if it changes anything, they are so similar in so many other ways, but it does give me hope for you that your H looks within and wants to articulate his feelings (even, if those feelings are all 'me, me, me' and what he needs. Mine just ran away.
I will respond on your thread later today re him 'seeking closure' with the OW. I have views, not to dissimilar from others, but my perspective (given I think your H is a good but confused man and the likeliness that once he has set out on a path he will, cut off his own nose, rather than admit a mistake) may be slightly different.
The angry beast within
I am not by nature an angry person and all this time I have led a mostly passive/calm non-reactive life. Apart from the odd passive aggressive response, or vagueness (how he hated this) about my own activities, I gave him his space and did not pressure in the hopes that he would realise what he was giving up and make moves towards R. I let him be and (as Yail once said) ignored the slings and arrows and just calmly floated along. But I did not set clear boundaries. I let him presume he could change plans and tell the children about the changes before speaking to me, I let him come and go as he pleased (making half-hearted pleas to respect my privacy) and (once I'd stopped going dark'ish) engaged with him as if we were friendly neighbours. I let him dictate the terms of our relationship. And I am angry about that because I feel that he was pulling the wool over my eyes all this time and I let him.
In my third IC session this week I broke down and said I felt betrayed. After pushing all this anger down for so long and making excuses for him, I hear myself throwing bombs across the wall we've both erected between us and watching as it explodes at his feet. Pot shots which don't serve anyone. Passive aggressive and hurtful. It's not all the time, but it's there. I am hurt an finally I want him to see I am hurt. It is not healthy and I need to get a handle on it.
his moving to have the kids more
I don't know how I feel about this. On one hand I am glad he is having them more as it frees things up for me (and he is a good father) and although I know it's unhealthy thinking, the more he has them, the less time he has to engage in self destructive behaviours or commit to a relationship any sort. I also know that the more he has them, the more we cement this 'separate' lives thing. He is getting the family life he seems to want, just without me. The move to have them more often is him running back to the family life he actually loves and misses. He knows what's important. And I am not important.
How do I feel. Left behind. Angry.
I wish he would do some reflection, but I don't think his ego could cope with it.
the house sale
I love my home. I will never have another home as beautiful. But I will leave it behind because it is what is needed right now. I am angry at him for putting me in a position where I have to sell my home and I have to feel guilty about it.
I've been reading through some old threads and found an interesting one where it discusses the pivotal 'event' which forces you to see things as they are and really let go of hope. I don't know if I am there yet, but a number of things have happened in the last month which have opened my eyes. He has not done the work, and even if he was willing to do the work, he would never admit fault - without his ability to own his mistakes then there is no future. There has been no growth for him.
I have been here a while now and your sitch I think most resemble mine. I wish I could give you sage advice from back then. I will say you are handling it with a level of intelligence, dignity and humor that, when I was back in your shoes (pre-moving out) I could have used. I was an emotional mess. But then, at the time, he was a hate spewing monster. My H does not have the level of emotional development that yours has. I don't know if it changes anything, they are so similar in so many other ways, but it does give me hope for you that your H looks within and wants to articulate his feelings (even, if those feelings are all 'me, me, me' and what he needs. Mine just ran away.
I will respond on your thread later today re him 'seeking closure' with the OW. I have views, not to dissimilar from others, but my perspective (given I think your H is a good but confused man and the likeliness that once he has set out on a path he will, cut off his own nose, rather than admit a mistake) may be slightly different.
The angry beast within
I am not by nature an angry person and all this time I have led a mostly passive/calm non-reactive life. Apart from the odd passive aggressive response, or vagueness (how he hated this) about my own activities, I gave him his space and did not pressure in the hopes that he would realise what he was giving up and make moves towards R. I let him be and (as Yail once said) ignored the slings and arrows and just calmly floated along. But I did not set clear boundaries. I let him presume he could change plans and tell the children about the changes before speaking to me, I let him come and go as he pleased (making half-hearted pleas to respect my privacy) and (once I'd stopped going dark'ish) engaged with him as if we were friendly neighbours. I let him dictate the terms of our relationship. And I am angry about that because I feel that he was pulling the wool over my eyes all this time and I let him.
In my third IC session this week I broke down and said I felt betrayed. After pushing all this anger down for so long and making excuses for him, I hear myself throwing bombs across the wall we've both erected between us and watching as it explodes at his feet. Pot shots which don't serve anyone. Passive aggressive and hurtful. It's not all the time, but it's there. I am hurt an finally I want him to see I am hurt. It is not healthy and I need to get a handle on it.
his moving to have the kids more
I don't know how I feel about this. On one hand I am glad he is having them more as it frees things up for me (and he is a good father) and although I know it's unhealthy thinking, the more he has them, the less time he has to engage in self destructive behaviours or commit to a relationship any sort. I also know that the more he has them, the more we cement this 'separate' lives thing. He is getting the family life he seems to want, just without me. The move to have them more often is him running back to the family life he actually loves and misses. He knows what's important. And I am not important.
How do I feel. Left behind. Angry.
I wish he would do some reflection, but I don't think his ego could cope with it.
the house sale
I love my home. I will never have another home as beautiful. But I will leave it behind because it is what is needed right now. I am angry at him for putting me in a position where I have to sell my home and I have to feel guilty about it.
I've been reading through some old threads and found an interesting one where it discusses the pivotal 'event' which forces you to see things as they are and really let go of hope. I don't know if I am there yet, but a number of things have happened in the last month which have opened my eyes. He has not done the work, and even if he was willing to do the work, he would never admit fault - without his ability to own his mistakes then there is no future. There has been no growth for him.
Re: Standing vs standing still - 02/13/20 01:07 AM
FS, your pause from posting was noted, and thank you for sharing why you chose to take it. We know this isn't the first time this discussion has popped up in my (our ) time here, and it seems to be circulating on a few folx' threads. A lot of us share your views that we are all here in the name of healing. If we can't talk about (and sure, maybe even in some instances over-analyze) our WAS then we are going to implode. Perhaps some people would do well to analyze and think a bit more critically instead of going for the sweeping generalizations and assumptions about their WAS. And it's my opinion that it's better to talk here with folx that have a bit of understanding as to where you're coming from, instead of chatting our our private details with every friend/family member in our real life.
This stood out to me because it highlights and area in which I have been making suggestions to folx, but from a very different perspective and perhaps I'm missing something key. I never had the opportunity to set boundaries, because it was such a quick departure. So for me, my best way forward was to just let go as soon as possible and learn to live my life.
But most folx aren't in that situation. So the letting go (ie detachment, releasing expectations, not betting on an outcome) is critical, but not while simply letting the WAS completely off the hook in terms of respect or basic communication. I think this experience is one I really need to keep at the forefront of my mind because it's not the experience I'm familiar with, but it is the more common story.
Are those your thoughts, or your ICs? What if it is healthy, and we are just trained to believe that it is not?
I'm just asking the question. If you've subverted your anger and hurt for so long, perhaps this is how you "need" to get it out to not incite further trauma on yourself.
I get this. I understand this so much. Love, while painful sometimes, is still the best place to focus our energy. So love your home, even as you let it go.
And I do believe you were the one who pointed out to me that Home is something we create. You are in the fear stage I was in a year ago. I will remind you: Home is built in a myriad of ways in so many varied places. You can and will build a home again in a different house. Love and respect your house as you depart, but don't fear loving something new because you WILL.
Can I be blunt and just call BS on this statement?
In all seriousness, again - I hear you on this statement and feeling. But you are writing a fictional future, and you get to instead live a real life ahead of you. Who knows what treasure you get to unearth and discover along the way!!
Much affection towards you FS. You helped me so incredibly when I was facing some of the fears you are currently facing. Don't forget that. You have that same wisdom you gave me inside you - turn it on yourself! And I hope you care for yourself as you move forward
Originally Posted by FlySolo
I let him be ... and just calmly floated along. But I did not set clear boundaries. I let him presume he could change plans and tell the children about the changes before speaking to me, I let him come and go as he pleased (making half-hearted pleas to respect my privacy) and (once I'd stopped going dark'ish) engaged with him as if we were friendly neighbours. I let him dictate the terms of our relationship.
This stood out to me because it highlights and area in which I have been making suggestions to folx, but from a very different perspective and perhaps I'm missing something key. I never had the opportunity to set boundaries, because it was such a quick departure. So for me, my best way forward was to just let go as soon as possible and learn to live my life.
But most folx aren't in that situation. So the letting go (ie detachment, releasing expectations, not betting on an outcome) is critical, but not while simply letting the WAS completely off the hook in terms of respect or basic communication. I think this experience is one I really need to keep at the forefront of my mind because it's not the experience I'm familiar with, but it is the more common story.
Originally Posted by FlySolo
It is not healthy and I need to get a handle on it.
Are those your thoughts, or your ICs? What if it is healthy, and we are just trained to believe that it is not?
I'm just asking the question. If you've subverted your anger and hurt for so long, perhaps this is how you "need" to get it out to not incite further trauma on yourself.
Originally Posted by FlySolo
I love my home.
I get this. I understand this so much. Love, while painful sometimes, is still the best place to focus our energy. So love your home, even as you let it go.
And I do believe you were the one who pointed out to me that Home is something we create. You are in the fear stage I was in a year ago. I will remind you: Home is built in a myriad of ways in so many varied places. You can and will build a home again in a different house. Love and respect your house as you depart, but don't fear loving something new because you WILL.
Originally Posted by FlySolo
I will never have another home as beautiful.
Can I be blunt and just call BS on this statement?
In all seriousness, again - I hear you on this statement and feeling. But you are writing a fictional future, and you get to instead live a real life ahead of you. Who knows what treasure you get to unearth and discover along the way!!
Much affection towards you FS. You helped me so incredibly when I was facing some of the fears you are currently facing. Don't forget that. You have that same wisdom you gave me inside you - turn it on yourself! And I hope you care for yourself as you move forward
Re: Standing vs standing still - 02/14/20 08:11 PM
Thinking of you, FS, and wondering how you're doing. I also want to agree with Yail about never having a home as beautiful... in fact, reading Yail's posts about her new apartment had given me a whole new perspective on moving on and what life could be like in the future without H. I think that was the first time I really started to see the positive side of being on my own (thank you Yail). Maybe you can put your sadness about the house in a box where you can visit it and honor it when you want to, but also feed your adventurous side by looking at home listings and cruising on Houzz and other sites where they have amazing before-and-afters on tiny budgets, so that you can also imagine what you could do with a fixer-upper (rather than get depressed about what might be in your budget range). Not sure if this is helpful at all, but I looooooove real estate porn and it always gets me thinking about future possibilities rather than getting down about today.
Don't feel guilty about selling the house, though. This is NOT on you.
Don't feel guilty about selling the house, though. This is NOT on you.
Re: Standing vs standing still - 02/16/20 02:24 PM
Originally Posted by Yail
Can I be blunt and just call BS on this statement?
Yes - you are absolutely right. And reading back it does sound like I was having a little pity party for one. It is beautiful and I will NEVER have another as beautiful. All this is true. But whilst I live here it is a prison. I have been trying to focus on the positives of selling. Independence, a mental shift from living in the past to looking towards the future. It is starting to sink in. But that old gremlin, the one that says if I sell it then the road back becomes less paved, rears itself and I put it back in the box and focus on practicalities.
Originally Posted by Yail
If you've subverted your anger and hurt for so long, perhaps this is how you "need" to get it out to not incite further trauma on yourself.
My IC said something along the lines of anger doesn't help anyone but this was in response to my telling her that I have been throwing grenades over the wall to provoke him. We are about to go into negotiations and she is afraid my emotions will make me say or do something which would harm me financially or in regards to the children, in the long run. She is right. I have always preached fairness when it comes to finances and the children but I feel that my anger could lead to petty squabbles. We have been (so far) able to maintain an amicable relationship - but that is because of me. I have let him have things pretty much his way. If I start acting irrationally now, he will retaliate. He is the type who would like all the chocolates in the box just so no-one else will eat them (true story from his childhood).
So instead I am refocusing the anger. Using it to motivate me to push forward with the house despite the guilt.
May - I know it's not on me. But it feels that way all the same. I am pushing through the guilt because I know it needs to be done. And yes, I love house porn too. When we were redecorating the house (it took us 6 years to complete as we went room by room) I spent every lunch hour looking at Houzz. There was a lot of love put into it. My love, not his. He was involved in the execution and trying to keep me within budget. He never got involved in the design/thought process.
**Journalling
It is half term here and H has taken the kids away for 10 day. They left yesterday. I was going to go away, but he mucked about with the days so much that I wasn't able to book anything. Instead, I am using the time to prepare the house. I've bought boxes ready to box old toys etc and have booked a skip to throw out any old rubbish. There is nearly 20 years worth of memories in this house, cards, books, old bits of paper, electrical cables, pens that don't work and towels that have long lost their luster. I am getting rid of it all. Freeing up the physical clutter in the hopes it will unblock the emotional/mental one. He is not happy about any of this, and he is not making it easy, but I know it needs to be done.
I am missing the kids. They have gone away with him and I had gotten use to it. This time seems different. Maybe because he is pushing to see them more or he is taking them away for longer than usual. I know instinctively this is him trying to hold on to them (the last symbol of family that we have now that limbo is nearly over and the house is probably going to be sold) but it hurts.
He sent me a pic from the plane saying 'All settled and ready to take off' and I sent back a curt 'looks like they're happy'. He tried to keep it going but I stopped responding after the first message. Today I sent him one asking if they could call me once they woke up as I was missing them. He replied sure and then updated me on how they were on the plane and sleeping last night, I responded with a 'thanks'.
I don't know how to engage with him anymore. We are on the verge of getting divorced and it seems fake that we interact like we're good buddies.
On that note - I have the first mediation session this week. I don't know if it works the same in the US, but over here, instead of going to court, you can settle things out of court through a mediator and then just get it signed off by a judge. The first session is on my own, then he has one, then we do the remaining sessions jointly. If we can't come to an agreement then we go to court.
He did say something strange yesterday when he came to pick the kids up. D13 lost her airpods when we went to lapland last year and she and I went halves on a second hand pair. H found the original pair in one of D13's jackets about a week ago. I put them in a drawer and said D10 could have them when she is bigger. When I looked the other day they were gone. I asked him yesterday if he had taken them and he said yes, he took them for D10 but she didn't want them. I asked him to bring them back. Later, D13 asked him the same question (I was in the room). He said they were in his car. I reminded him to bring them back and he got all stroppy and said 'I told you I would bring them back. You don't need to remind me. I know where you're mind is going'. Now, I have no idea what he thinks I was thinking - which actually was, stop taking sh!t from my house without telling me - but suspect it has something to do with money.
Re: Standing vs standing still - 02/17/20 01:13 PM
Originally Posted by FlySolo
I have let him have things pretty much his way. If I start acting irrationally now, he will retaliate.
First instinct when reading this is "Well, too darned bad for him". Because who are we to subvert our needs to another's? Can't they be on equal footing? But then...we get to priorities.
My priority (for ME - I'm sure others have different experiences and will state so) was an amicable D. Over being "right", over being heard, over any of the physical items in our home. I just did not want any escalation of any kind because I knew it would hurt me emotionally and I knew in the long run it would cost me more financially. So that was my conscious choice. It sounds like you're leaning that way too, but I hope you really consider it and just confirm that's your plan of action. Just so you are firm in whatever your decision is.
This was how I let go of my need to say my piece. I am okay with not having said everything I wanted to say. I knew it was secondary to my decision on not fighting.
I know you have a weird week ahead of you without the kids but also with mediation. You will get through it. Be productive with your time - plan your life, get ahead on items - it will help with the stress you're feeling. Nothing quite like taking care of your future in the present. Or maybe it's just procrastinators like me that are amazed when things like that happen. You seem like a woman who really has her stuff sorted out.
Re: Standing vs standing still - 02/18/20 05:29 PM
First mediation today. The mediator explained that she is there to facilitate, keep us focused and to produce some sort of non-binding agreement at the end. If we decide to divorce, then the agreement gets submitted to the court, with the petition and then it becomes legally binding. It was all very administrative, and not too dissimilar from a business type negotiation I would do on any other day of the week. On average it's 3 joint sessions and they produce two docs at the end. Cheaper than court and thrashing it out through solicitors (though she said to get everything looked at by a solicitor).
I was surprisingly calm. Even jovial. Maybe because I've changed my mindset and a part of it is very much a business transaction now. I explained our sitch (well, the childcare related and financial related aspects) and stated what I wanted.
She did ask me to confirm if it was our intention to divorce. Apparently when he booked the meeting he was unclear - he simply said we needed to work through house split and childcare. Admittedly, when he booked the session we had had a civil but slightly heated exchange about the house which turned into a discussion primary carer and ended with him saying "we need to get a mediator involved" and my saying "cool - set one up and I will make myself available".
As mine was the first session I sent him a friendly"hiya - I have the mediator thing today and just wanted to confirm some details" followed by the main dates in our relationship (started co-habitated, first bought property, got married, date he moved out) and asked him also if he had taken our marriage certificate (as it's gone missing again). He read it but didn't respond. I followed up with a "just to let you know I've used the dates in the message above but we can change later if you disagree". Again no response.
I've missed the children and if im honest I miss him. But I think it is because they are away together as a family. He is away so much that him not being here barely registers anymore. I would rather be with them than here on my own. I have been busy this week tidying up the house and generally chilling out. I've managed t do a bit of meditation (letting go, forgiveness and self love mainly) and also caught up with a girlfriend on Sunday (she stayed over, we drank wine and watched Bad Moms). The declutter is going slowly - but I've been quite ruthless so far. There is something freeing about throwing away lots of black bags, old cables, computer equipment, stereo systems that we haven't plugged in for 8 years. He told me not to throw out anything he might want, but f** it. If he had his way we'd still have broken car seats from when the kids were babies.
I have felt really strange all week. A bit like the weight has lifted. I think that it is because for so long it felt like I was treading water and now it feels like I am swimming towards something. Yes, it might not be the resolution I hoped for. I may never get the closure I deserve, but at least I can start looking forward again.
I was surprisingly calm. Even jovial. Maybe because I've changed my mindset and a part of it is very much a business transaction now. I explained our sitch (well, the childcare related and financial related aspects) and stated what I wanted.
She did ask me to confirm if it was our intention to divorce. Apparently when he booked the meeting he was unclear - he simply said we needed to work through house split and childcare. Admittedly, when he booked the session we had had a civil but slightly heated exchange about the house which turned into a discussion primary carer and ended with him saying "we need to get a mediator involved" and my saying "cool - set one up and I will make myself available".
As mine was the first session I sent him a friendly"hiya - I have the mediator thing today and just wanted to confirm some details" followed by the main dates in our relationship (started co-habitated, first bought property, got married, date he moved out) and asked him also if he had taken our marriage certificate (as it's gone missing again). He read it but didn't respond. I followed up with a "just to let you know I've used the dates in the message above but we can change later if you disagree". Again no response.
I've missed the children and if im honest I miss him. But I think it is because they are away together as a family. He is away so much that him not being here barely registers anymore. I would rather be with them than here on my own. I have been busy this week tidying up the house and generally chilling out. I've managed t do a bit of meditation (letting go, forgiveness and self love mainly) and also caught up with a girlfriend on Sunday (she stayed over, we drank wine and watched Bad Moms). The declutter is going slowly - but I've been quite ruthless so far. There is something freeing about throwing away lots of black bags, old cables, computer equipment, stereo systems that we haven't plugged in for 8 years. He told me not to throw out anything he might want, but f** it. If he had his way we'd still have broken car seats from when the kids were babies.
I have felt really strange all week. A bit like the weight has lifted. I think that it is because for so long it felt like I was treading water and now it feels like I am swimming towards something. Yes, it might not be the resolution I hoped for. I may never get the closure I deserve, but at least I can start looking forward again.
Re: Standing vs standing still - 02/18/20 06:24 PM
I am seriously crying here reading your thread. For the pain you have been through, but also at the beauty of so many posters supporting and believing in you. I am still in shock to find myself going in your direction. I am scared of what's to come. Finances, child sharing. The latter I can hardly bear. I take comfort in your strength.
I only add that you seem to be managing it well. I think Reiki is a great addition to IC, especially if it contributes to your peace and healing. I am glad the future is looking brighter for you.
I only add that you seem to be managing it well. I think Reiki is a great addition to IC, especially if it contributes to your peace and healing. I am glad the future is looking brighter for you.
Re: Standing vs standing still - 02/19/20 12:38 AM
Hi FS,
I've been thinking about you and your sitch. I can't imagine what it must feel like to have them on a plane off on a "family" vacation without you and him sending you these nice texts, probably wanting you to feel OK about it and it just feeling so wrong and sad to you (and to me, reading). I think you are under no obligation to be buddy-buddy with him if you don't feel like it. You are going through an incredibly difficult time and you need to be there for yourself and your kids, first and foremost.
I really am glad you are getting the time to go through your house and purge. There is nothing like that feeling of ruthlessly tossing things that no longer serve you. And all the better that he would have whined about it but is no longer in a position to have much of a say. Also, I loved Bad Moms and Bad Mom Christmas is also hilarious. I watched it on an airplane and kept cracking up out loud.
The earbud thing is weird. As is the texting fun stuff and ignoring the mediation-related stuff. No mindreading here, but still. Weird.
One thing that Alison has been pushing me on in my thread is to really know MYSELF and what I want/need... I might suggest the same for you in/re how you go about the next steps with the mediator. I have so much respect for Yail for how she handled her D. I also kind of want Unchien to get the meanest shark possible for an L. (sorry, but I do.) I feel like I would fall somewhere in the middle, but in the end I think I'd fall to the self-protection side, just knowing myself and feeling I could always be nicer or more giving down the line. I just want to second Yail's recommendation to be sure you know your own priorities and what matters most to you in the longer term as you go into this process.
A couple things strike me here-- one is that you've mostly been letting him have his own way, and then "if I start acting irrationally..." I just want to point out that acting irrationally is not the opposite of letting him have things his own way. Yes, you want to keep your emotions in check and act rationally. You can ALSO stand up for yourself and not give in to him. You deserve half those chocolates in the box. The good ones. He can have the crappy nut and caramel ones that always get left till the end. Just saying.
Hang in there with the kids away. Hoping you can work in some additional time for yourself that would be harder if the kids were around.
I've been thinking about you and your sitch. I can't imagine what it must feel like to have them on a plane off on a "family" vacation without you and him sending you these nice texts, probably wanting you to feel OK about it and it just feeling so wrong and sad to you (and to me, reading). I think you are under no obligation to be buddy-buddy with him if you don't feel like it. You are going through an incredibly difficult time and you need to be there for yourself and your kids, first and foremost.
I really am glad you are getting the time to go through your house and purge. There is nothing like that feeling of ruthlessly tossing things that no longer serve you. And all the better that he would have whined about it but is no longer in a position to have much of a say. Also, I loved Bad Moms and Bad Mom Christmas is also hilarious. I watched it on an airplane and kept cracking up out loud.
The earbud thing is weird. As is the texting fun stuff and ignoring the mediation-related stuff. No mindreading here, but still. Weird.
One thing that Alison has been pushing me on in my thread is to really know MYSELF and what I want/need... I might suggest the same for you in/re how you go about the next steps with the mediator. I have so much respect for Yail for how she handled her D. I also kind of want Unchien to get the meanest shark possible for an L. (sorry, but I do.) I feel like I would fall somewhere in the middle, but in the end I think I'd fall to the self-protection side, just knowing myself and feeling I could always be nicer or more giving down the line. I just want to second Yail's recommendation to be sure you know your own priorities and what matters most to you in the longer term as you go into this process.
Originally Posted by FlySolo
My IC said something along the lines of anger doesn't help anyone but this was in response to my telling her that I have been throwing grenades over the wall to provoke him. We are about to go into negotiations and she is afraid my emotions will make me say or do something which would harm me financially or in regards to the children, in the long run. She is right. I have always preached fairness when it comes to finances and the children but I feel that my anger could lead to petty squabbles. We have been (so far) able to maintain an amicable relationship - but that is because of me. I have let him have things pretty much his way. If I start acting irrationally now, he will retaliate. He is the type who would like all the chocolates in the box just so no-one else will eat them (true story from his childhood).
A couple things strike me here-- one is that you've mostly been letting him have his own way, and then "if I start acting irrationally..." I just want to point out that acting irrationally is not the opposite of letting him have things his own way. Yes, you want to keep your emotions in check and act rationally. You can ALSO stand up for yourself and not give in to him. You deserve half those chocolates in the box. The good ones. He can have the crappy nut and caramel ones that always get left till the end. Just saying.
Hang in there with the kids away. Hoping you can work in some additional time for yourself that would be harder if the kids were around.
Re: Standing vs standing still - 02/19/20 12:58 AM
Why is it that even for people who genuinely LIKE nuts and caramel, they still are always left to last in the box?
This is the perfect description of how I felt. I just needed to feel like I was making decisions for me, not being lead somewhere blind. Then it would go away again, and then when another step was taken (ie one more tiny thing resolved) I would feel lighter again.
It is interesting how H did not state clearly that you are headed towards D. He really has his head in the sand while standing right in front of you, doesn't he?
I like your factual updates to him. No presumption to what he is thinking, just commenting what has taken place. This will help get you through. Sometimes for me those tiny communications of facts made me more confident that I was taking the right steps. Hearing what I did (reiterating my steps out "loud" in email) made me see how common-sense and realistic I was being. It helps to counter the swirling in your head.
May and FS: Have you watched Workin' Moms? It's hysterical. I love it, and have watched the first 3 seasons twice now. Highly recommend. The first 30 seconds of the first episode really set the tone for the show, so you'll know right away if it's your style.
Originally Posted by FlySolo
I have felt really strange all week. A bit like the weight has lifted. I think that it is because for so long it felt like I was treading water and now it feels like I am swimming towards something. Yes, it might not be the resolution I hoped for. I may never get the closure I deserve, but at least I can start looking forward again.
This is the perfect description of how I felt. I just needed to feel like I was making decisions for me, not being lead somewhere blind. Then it would go away again, and then when another step was taken (ie one more tiny thing resolved) I would feel lighter again.
It is interesting how H did not state clearly that you are headed towards D. He really has his head in the sand while standing right in front of you, doesn't he?
I like your factual updates to him. No presumption to what he is thinking, just commenting what has taken place. This will help get you through. Sometimes for me those tiny communications of facts made me more confident that I was taking the right steps. Hearing what I did (reiterating my steps out "loud" in email) made me see how common-sense and realistic I was being. It helps to counter the swirling in your head.
May and FS: Have you watched Workin' Moms? It's hysterical. I love it, and have watched the first 3 seasons twice now. Highly recommend. The first 30 seconds of the first episode really set the tone for the show, so you'll know right away if it's your style.
Re: Standing vs standing still - 02/19/20 10:00 AM
Hugs, FS. I know how hard it is when your H takes the kids away. Not only are you deprived of your kids, but also of family holidays. It really slams home how broken the M is and how truly we are left behind. I'm glad you're having a good clear out, I hope you find it therapeutic. It'll make moving so much easier. Well done on the mediation thing, you're moving closer to ending limbo. I've kind of decided to stay put in my home for a few more years, because our house is modest and downsizing makes no financial sense, because it's the kids' home and they have suffered enough loss, and because it suits us practically whilst the kids are finishing their education. I do sometimes want a fresh start though, and you will get that! In the meantime I'm making the house more my own, next stop I'm doing up the garden so I'm getting quotes for that to entertain friends in the summer Like your H, my H hates getting rid of things (too much loss in his teen years, I think), but this stuff is no longer up to them! Good for you for taking control of the Stuff
Like your H, my H hates getting rid of things (too much loss in his teen years, I think), but this stuff is no longer up to them! Good for you for taking control of the Stuff
Re: Standing vs standing still - 02/19/20 11:39 AM
This sounds tough, FS. I echo what May says about there being a difference between looking out for your own interests, being fair to yourself, and in being irrational. Your H might get angry and might see you standing up for needs and wants that he doesn't share or doesn't understand as irrational, but then if you both saw eye to eye on all of this - particularly the matter of each other's needs - well, you might be in a different place. I hope you can do this in a way that is calm and respectful and as amicable as possible, but I am not sure rolling over and not speaking up for the truth of what you want and need is a healthy way to go about that.
I had a big clear out when H moved out too. He keeps cardboard boxes and old broken computer equipment and even milk crates and the polystyrene casings that come inside kitchen appliance boxes. One dark day a few weeks after he'd moved out I went into the cellar in a whirling rage and took the entire lot out to the car and to the tip. I hurt my back too. But it was cathartic and even now he's back, he hasn't mentioned it...
I had a big clear out when H moved out too. He keeps cardboard boxes and old broken computer equipment and even milk crates and the polystyrene casings that come inside kitchen appliance boxes. One dark day a few weeks after he'd moved out I went into the cellar in a whirling rage and took the entire lot out to the car and to the tip. I hurt my back too. But it was cathartic and even now he's back, he hasn't mentioned it...
Re: Standing vs standing still - 02/19/20 01:47 PM
Hi FS. My XH doesn’t do holidays with the kids, just OW, so I haven’t had to go through the family holidays without mom thing yet. But I have done the holidays without him, during our marriage too, so the kids and I have lots of shared activities and memories. I am actually glad he hasn’t done anything with them but feel like I am over it enough now that it won’t bother me too much when/if he finally does go on a holiday with them. Mostly I’ll be happy for them.
I think the decluttering is a good thing for you...although emotional, I’m sure. You are moving forward towards a new life...with him or without him. I, too, find it interesting he was unclear about whether or not you were divorcing. Honestly, I still have a gut feeling that the two of your aren’t done. Did you read on my thread about my run in with my old basketball coach? Married 36 years, divorced for five and now back together with this wife for two and a half. It does happen but I think you need to really let go before it does. Limbo is not a great place to be and you’ve been there quite awhile now. Oh...and his non-response to your texts that are about the mediation are interesting to me. He isn’t responding to you for a reason. It seems to me that after so long in limbo, if this was REALLY what he wanted, he would be actively giving you all of the information you need and being happy that you are finally taking some steps. But he’s not doing that... why?
Anyway...just wanted to lend you my support and let you know that I am still keeping up with your sitch even though I’ve moved over to Surviving the Big D forum. You and your family are in my thoughts.
I think the decluttering is a good thing for you...although emotional, I’m sure. You are moving forward towards a new life...with him or without him. I, too, find it interesting he was unclear about whether or not you were divorcing. Honestly, I still have a gut feeling that the two of your aren’t done. Did you read on my thread about my run in with my old basketball coach? Married 36 years, divorced for five and now back together with this wife for two and a half. It does happen but I think you need to really let go before it does. Limbo is not a great place to be and you’ve been there quite awhile now. Oh...and his non-response to your texts that are about the mediation are interesting to me. He isn’t responding to you for a reason. It seems to me that after so long in limbo, if this was REALLY what he wanted, he would be actively giving you all of the information you need and being happy that you are finally taking some steps. But he’s not doing that... why?
Anyway...just wanted to lend you my support and let you know that I am still keeping up with your sitch even though I’ve moved over to Surviving the Big D forum. You and your family are in my thoughts.
Re: Standing vs standing still - 02/20/20 09:26 AM
Originally Posted by Oceangrl
but also at the beauty of so many posters supporting and believing in you.
The support has been truly remarkable. Here and IRL. Before this happened, like many mums, I had slowly withdrawn from 'social' life. It is just what happens. Friends move away and you get caught up in raising children, building a family life and work. I had people, mums I'd say hello to at the gate, colleagues I'd make small talk to at work, but it was all secondary to 'real life'. I'd attend the organised mums dinners and I'd go to work events (christmas parties, leaving do's) but this was more because I thought I should. I don't say this with any sadness or resentment, just it hit hard when he left and I felt I had no-one. At first I turned to his family (because, back then, his family were my family and mine live on the other side of the world). They rallied around. But over time, out of embarrassment or familial loyalty they pulled back and I was forced to turn to others. I didn't see it that way - opening up to people IRL was GAL and coming on here and sharing my story as a kind of therapy with support. But GAL friendships turned into real friendships and the people I've met here (DV, Dilly, Yail, Alison, AS, Davide etc) as some of the wisest and most supportive people I've ever come across. I have a close circle of real friends and a wide circle of virtual friends who have let me cry on their real/virtual shoulders, given me a kick when I'm being a self pitying dope, taken me out dancing, watched rubbish TV with me and the guys and gals here have offered my hug after hug across the internet whilst giving me advice and the occasional but kicking. I am so grateful to everyone.
Originally Posted by may22
I can't imagine what it must feel like to have them on a plane off on a "family" vacation without you and him sending you these nice texts, probably wanting you to feel OK about it and it just feeling so wrong and sad to you (and to me, reading).
Yeah - it s*cks. He has been sending pictures and getting the girls to call me every night. Their holiday looks amazing - they are on a cruise out of Miami and I have to hold back the tears and pretend to be excited when they call. To the photos I respond with "Photos are great. Thanks for sending". Each time we have these cordial exchanges I think about things said and unsaid. I read through Blu's initial post from her first thread, and it talks about her H admitting how guilty and ashamed he felt but he couldn't tell her at the time and I know this is my H. He has to face it, but he won't. He will keep pretending everything is rosy. So I have to pretend everything is rosy.
The ignoring the mediation and any message R, Sep'n or D related, well that's him burying his head in the sand and pretending it's not happening. He doesn't want this. He just can't face what his done or the consequences of what he has done. He is also dragging his heels on any conversation which involved preparing the house for sale under the guise of trying to get stuff that needs doing cheaper. It is annoying as hell because I am on a 'right, let's get this done' state of mind.
Mind reading. But accurate.
Side note: that looks like I'm putting all the blame on him. I am not. I have my own demons. But I acknowledge them, even if I haven't really forgiven myself or dealt with them.
Originally Posted by may22
I have so much respect for Yail for how she handled her D
Me too. Yail is a remarkable young woman who put her healing above petty squabbles. Yail and I share a kind of life philosophy: do no harm, take no sh!t . I mostly live by this, but sometimes the balance is. I took a passive stance because the passive stance allowed for a quiet life and didn't hurt me (too much). I wasn't trying to nice him back. I was living my life and letting him live his. Whilst what he asked for didn't infringe on my life, I let him get away with it. Now that we are moving towards resolution and he is asking for more access and putting me in a position where my outgoings will increase by around 30% I am being less passive. The irrational behaviour (on my part) that I am talking about is whilst being more assertive is necessary, I don't want it clouded by resentment, fear and hurt. As so clearly articulated by others in your thread, there is no winning. I am going to lose, he is going to lose, but I want to walk away from this with my values in tact.
Alison - the clear out is not going as well as quickly as I wanted. I am going to hit it hard this weekend before they get back on Monday. Work has been busy and I've been out a lot. What I have managed to do has been incredibly cathartic. I wish I could take a picture of the skip, post it here with a caption like "getting rid of life's baggage". There is so much sh!t in my house. I'm sure there are atleast two drawers of cables where we don't know what they go with !!!!. He is going to be so p!ssed when he gets back.
Originally Posted by DillyDaf
I've kind of decided to stay put in my home for a few more years, because our house is modest and downsizing makes no financial sense, because it's the kids' home and they have suffered enough loss, and because it suits us practically whilst the kids are finishing their education.
This is H's argument for keeping the house. And he is right. And you are right and I can't afford to stay. And whilst I live in a house that is half his, he will always be physically and energetically present. If my H respected that the house is my home and I was able to afford to stay, then I would absolutely stay.
You are right, I am missing the children. The photos are a killer. We have been on so many cruises as a family and seeing them there, in the sunshine smiling and eating ice cream, well it hurts. Left behind spouse is pretty fitting. Maybe that's why I've accepted so many social invites this week ...
DV - I am so glad you're still here. I still have hope for my H and I too. I keep it buried deep down whilst I carry on with whatever needs to be done, pull myself out of my little pity parties and keep my head up.
Oh, and sorry about the long post. I got carried away and now I've missed my train
Re: Standing vs standing still - 02/21/20 12:12 AM
Originally Posted by FlySolo
I read through Blu's initial post from her first thread, and it talks about her H admitting how guilty and ashamed he felt but he couldn't tell her at the time and I know this is my H. He has to face it, but he won't. He will keep pretending everything is rosy. So I have to pretend everything is rosy.
The ignoring the mediation and any message R, Sep'n or D related, well that's him burying his head in the sand and pretending it's not happening. He doesn't want this. He just can't face what his done or the consequences of what he has done. He is also dragging his heels on any conversation which involved preparing the house for sale under the guise of trying to get stuff that needs doing cheaper. It is annoying as hell because I am on a 'right, let's get this done' state of mind.
The ignoring the mediation and any message R, Sep'n or D related, well that's him burying his head in the sand and pretending it's not happening. He doesn't want this. He just can't face what his done or the consequences of what he has done. He is also dragging his heels on any conversation which involved preparing the house for sale under the guise of trying to get stuff that needs doing cheaper. It is annoying as hell because I am on a 'right, let's get this done' state of mind.
Wow, this is so difficult for me to read. I think my H would be behaving exactly the same way. I really appreciate your posts on my thread because I do see so many similarities in our Hs. The part about dragging his heels on the house under the guise that it is too expensive? Resonated with me sooooo much... my H would do EXACTLY the same thing. I do think him ignoring the messages about the mediation stuff is really quite telling.
Here's my question to you... (not DB) I still am wondering in your sitch if it hurts to just be honest with him about what you feel. I might be willing to bet that part of his justification for continuing down his path is that you seem fine, you're also acting as if things are rosy, you're the one now pushing the house sale, etc. And now maybe you have two people who are going through the motions and slowly walking towards something neither of them really want. I don't know what the answer is or if it would be a good idea to be open with him about where you are, and how his various responses might affect you. I just wanted to ask the question. What if you didn't answer the mediator's question about what your goal is in all of this so that she had to ask it when you're both together? And you could pipe up and say this isn't what I want? I really wish we could work this out? And then just leave the ball in his court?
Originally Posted by FlySolo
There is so much sh!t in my house. I'm sure there are at least two drawers of cables where we don't know what they go with !!!!. He is going to be so p!ssed when he gets back.
This part makes me chuckle an evil laugh. He will so deserve that. Do you think he'll get visibly angry? Or just get mad inside but know he doesn't really have the right to complain?
Re: Standing vs standing still - 02/23/20 08:08 AM
How are you doing FS? I've had you in mind this week, thinking of you and how difficult things are right now. x
Re: Standing vs standing still - 02/24/20 12:11 AM
FS, thinking of you as you get to see your kiddos today I believe. How nice it will be to see their smiling faces.
And back to "normal" which is not very normal at all right now. I was wondering while reading your past couple of posts if this past week your H isn't putting his head in the sand, but was instead setting your house/separation/mediation notes aside so he could be present with the girls on vacation. Perhaps not, but it crossed my mind as a possibility. Or at least it could be his excuse if not the real reason. More likely.
I hope you got a bit more clearing out done and feel content with the amount you accomplished while you had your space to yourself. It's awful to go through, and then later you'll feel good about the cleaning portion. No one ever truly misses that rogue aux cable. But here's a tip - save any extra HDMI cables. I'm always looking for one :-D
Perhaps you don't wish to share, but have you started searching for ideas on where you might move? Is the plan to buy, or rent?
Did you do anything to treat yourself this week?
And back to "normal" which is not very normal at all right now. I was wondering while reading your past couple of posts if this past week your H isn't putting his head in the sand, but was instead setting your house/separation/mediation notes aside so he could be present with the girls on vacation. Perhaps not, but it crossed my mind as a possibility. Or at least it could be his excuse if not the real reason. More likely.
I hope you got a bit more clearing out done and feel content with the amount you accomplished while you had your space to yourself. It's awful to go through, and then later you'll feel good about the cleaning portion. No one ever truly misses that rogue aux cable. But here's a tip - save any extra HDMI cables. I'm always looking for one :-D
Perhaps you don't wish to share, but have you started searching for ideas on where you might move? Is the plan to buy, or rent?
Did you do anything to treat yourself this week?
Re: Standing vs standing still - 02/24/20 07:52 AM
Hey FS
Sorry I don't have time to catch up on everything; just this last thread. My honest view is that the 'limbo' / impasse, whatever we want to call it had to break at some point. One way or another. I think it was time. Life really is too short to stand still for long. You've got too much to give and live for to spend it in stagnation.
I know that this isn't the outcome that you had hoped for. I suppose that this may still not be the final outcome. But, you have to keep moving forward. Grab the situation by the proverbials and make it yours.
One small word of caution. Accept H's procrastination as just that. Don't read into it. Believe me I am (still) married to the king of procrastination who told my L that he didn't want to get divorced. Did that mean he wanted to save the marriage? Nope. I am guessing he didn't want to face his demons and face the financial consequences. Shame / guilt, who knows, but what I know is that it wasn't in my interests.
Thinking of you FS. What you are feeling is normal and natural and stinks. Push through, you / it will be fine.
Sorry I don't have time to catch up on everything; just this last thread. My honest view is that the 'limbo' / impasse, whatever we want to call it had to break at some point. One way or another. I think it was time. Life really is too short to stand still for long. You've got too much to give and live for to spend it in stagnation.
I know that this isn't the outcome that you had hoped for. I suppose that this may still not be the final outcome. But, you have to keep moving forward. Grab the situation by the proverbials and make it yours.
One small word of caution. Accept H's procrastination as just that. Don't read into it. Believe me I am (still) married to the king of procrastination who told my L that he didn't want to get divorced. Did that mean he wanted to save the marriage? Nope. I am guessing he didn't want to face his demons and face the financial consequences. Shame / guilt, who knows, but what I know is that it wasn't in my interests.
Thinking of you FS. What you are feeling is normal and natural and stinks. Push through, you / it will be fine.
Re: Standing vs standing still - 02/24/20 01:06 PM
quote=may22] I still am wondering in your sitch if it hurts to just be honest with him about what you feel.[/quote]
This is why I sent him the email a month or so ago telling him the door was still open. Among the many messages where we discussed the OW/bunny boiler, I said I believed him, that it was hard because what was being said (by others) hurt me because I still loved him but that I was trying to understand. Again, he ignored anything that wasn't directly defending/denying the rumors going around. He did say that it was because he cared about me (and I guess what I think of him) that he was defending/denying at all - otherwise he'd ignore it. I will take you up on your suggestion that if there is an opening at mediation that I'll try and open up. Maybe it will be different in person.
I agree with you. But honestly, I don't know how else to act. Preparing the house gives me focus. For the longest time I've been stuck in this uncertain place where I've been unable to plan and unable to invest financially or emotionally. One way or another, I see an end to that uncertainty and am excited about it. Also, I've learned to fake his rainbows and unicorn demeanor. Admittedly it's gotten less fake over the last few weeks - I think the thought of having a future, any future, has made my thinking a little less grey.
Not going to lie, it's been a tough week. This time has been harder than others. A bit like the first time they went away. I do think its because I see an end to it all. I've missed them terribly.
I've been out a lot, which has helped, but the weekends have been long and it was sometimes hard to get myself motivated. I watched a lot of rubbish TV. It was fine once I'd get started, hauling bag after bag out to the hired skip. I've managed to do a fair bit, and I suspect H was shocked when he saw just how full the skip was.
I've been doing some research. I probably won't buy straight away. The employment climate is a little too uncertain at the moment (which is why I'm selling up in the first place) to buy. The main advantage of moving is that I will have the proceeds from the sale which will give me some breathing space until the employment market levels out again. Right now I could lose my job at any point and being tied into a huge mortgage just wouldn't be ideal.
And yes, I kept all the HDMI cables. Can never have too many of them. I did pack all theoutdated iphone rechargers and headphones in one of the boxes for him along with an assortment of cables which I've no idea what they go with
Ah, Yorkie, can always count on you for a good metaphore !!!!
Yes, you are absolutely right, and I am trying. It isn't easy, but I do see an end in sight and I am trying to make my way towards it.
************
Journalling
He is back. Napping upstairs in the spare room with D10 after a long flight. D13 is also upstairs napping.
When the got back I gave the girls both a hug. D10 gave me hugs back and then asked her dad where my present was, chocolates and a hotel room size bottle of tequila (which H informed me is an expensive brand - not that I'd know, I hate tequila). D13 reluctantly gave me a hug and then went to then fridge to see if there was any food.
I said hello to H. He had a go at me for emailing the childrens school re their not being at school today as he had already emailed them (and didn't think to cc me).
I told him in future could he cc me on any school correspondence (same as I do when I contact the school). He huffed and said that as the girls were with him he thought it was his responsibility to contact the school. Also, I was expecting our dog to be returned yesterday and only found out by accident that his mum was not returning her until today and I asked him to let me know, in future if plans change. He huffed again, moaned for a bit and I said things would be a lot smoother if he simply remembered to copy me in on things and/or message me to confirm changes in plans. I heard him say "shut up" under his breath before he went upstairs to take a nap.
I think he was probably a little shocked at how far I've gotten with the house. The downstairs, apart from the boxes of stuff I've packed, looks like a show home. I've bought a couple of bits and pieces and moved stuff around to finish off empty spaces. He glanced around the living room, said something along the lines of "D10 still plays with some of those toys, have YOU checked with her" and then grumbled as he walked away. I had actually just finished discussing the toys with D10 so smiled and said, yes, we were just talking about that.
It is d@mn hard trying to assert myself and also maintain a friendly demeanor, i.e. offering a safe space. He gets so riled up even over (what I think) are reasonable requests.
This is why I sent him the email a month or so ago telling him the door was still open. Among the many messages where we discussed the OW/bunny boiler, I said I believed him, that it was hard because what was being said (by others) hurt me because I still loved him but that I was trying to understand. Again, he ignored anything that wasn't directly defending/denying the rumors going around. He did say that it was because he cared about me (and I guess what I think of him) that he was defending/denying at all - otherwise he'd ignore it. I will take you up on your suggestion that if there is an opening at mediation that I'll try and open up. Maybe it will be different in person.
Originally Posted by may22
I might be willing to bet that part of his justification for continuing down his path is that you seem fine, you're also acting as if things are rosy
I agree with you. But honestly, I don't know how else to act. Preparing the house gives me focus. For the longest time I've been stuck in this uncertain place where I've been unable to plan and unable to invest financially or emotionally. One way or another, I see an end to that uncertainty and am excited about it. Also, I've learned to fake his rainbows and unicorn demeanor. Admittedly it's gotten less fake over the last few weeks - I think the thought of having a future, any future, has made my thinking a little less grey.
Originally Posted by AlisonUK
How are you doing FS
Not going to lie, it's been a tough week. This time has been harder than others. A bit like the first time they went away. I do think its because I see an end to it all. I've missed them terribly.
I've been out a lot, which has helped, but the weekends have been long and it was sometimes hard to get myself motivated. I watched a lot of rubbish TV. It was fine once I'd get started, hauling bag after bag out to the hired skip. I've managed to do a fair bit, and I suspect H was shocked when he saw just how full the skip was.
Originally Posted by Yail
Perhaps you don't wish to share, but have you started searching for ideas on where you might move
I've been doing some research. I probably won't buy straight away. The employment climate is a little too uncertain at the moment (which is why I'm selling up in the first place) to buy. The main advantage of moving is that I will have the proceeds from the sale which will give me some breathing space until the employment market levels out again. Right now I could lose my job at any point and being tied into a huge mortgage just wouldn't be ideal.
And yes, I kept all the HDMI cables. Can never have too many of them. I did pack all theoutdated iphone rechargers and headphones in one of the boxes for him along with an assortment of cables which I've no idea what they go with
Originally Posted by Yorkie
Grab the situation by the proverbials and make it yours.
Ah, Yorkie, can always count on you for a good metaphore !!!!
Yes, you are absolutely right, and I am trying. It isn't easy, but I do see an end in sight and I am trying to make my way towards it.
************
Journalling
He is back. Napping upstairs in the spare room with D10 after a long flight. D13 is also upstairs napping.
When the got back I gave the girls both a hug. D10 gave me hugs back and then asked her dad where my present was, chocolates and a hotel room size bottle of tequila (which H informed me is an expensive brand - not that I'd know, I hate tequila). D13 reluctantly gave me a hug and then went to then fridge to see if there was any food
.I said hello to H. He had a go at me for emailing the childrens school re their not being at school today as he had already emailed them (and didn't think to cc me).
I told him in future could he cc me on any school correspondence (same as I do when I contact the school). He huffed and said that as the girls were with him he thought it was his responsibility to contact the school. Also, I was expecting our dog to be returned yesterday and only found out by accident that his mum was not returning her until today and I asked him to let me know, in future if plans change. He huffed again, moaned for a bit and I said things would be a lot smoother if he simply remembered to copy me in on things and/or message me to confirm changes in plans. I heard him say "shut up" under his breath before he went upstairs to take a nap.
I think he was probably a little shocked at how far I've gotten with the house. The downstairs, apart from the boxes of stuff I've packed, looks like a show home. I've bought a couple of bits and pieces and moved stuff around to finish off empty spaces. He glanced around the living room, said something along the lines of "D10 still plays with some of those toys, have YOU checked with her" and then grumbled as he walked away. I had actually just finished discussing the toys with D10 so smiled and said, yes, we were just talking about that.
It is d@mn hard trying to assert myself and also maintain a friendly demeanor, i.e. offering a safe space. He gets so riled up even over (what I think) are reasonable requests.
Re: Standing vs standing still - 02/24/20 02:02 PM
Do I detect a little self-pity in all this, FS? Next time he takes the kids away, MAKE time to treat yourself and do something, even something cheap like a long walk somewhere, OK? I had a pretty boring half term with teens who didn't want to do anything, and I've found the self-pity grows under these conditions, even when you try to fight it!
Can I play devil's advocate here? Only because my H is also very critical and often responds badly to reasonable requests too. Your timing was terrible on the emailing school thing, he was knackered and nobody responds well when they're knackered. It must also have been a bit of a shock to see the house (which he probably still sees as his even though he's walked away) cleared of so much stuff (presumably some of it his), especially if he was tired and grumpy and not expecting to walk into your clutter clearing. His behaviour was crap, but you could have handled it more sensitively by validating his feelings more here. I struggle so much with asserting myself and deflecting critical behaviour, but it's much easier to see where other people can improve, lol
Now let me congratulate you (nobody in your family will...) because you sorted ALL of everyone's crap on YOUR week off while they were off having fun. That must have been so frustrating for you, why do we mums get saddled with all the crap? It's hard work and unexpectedly emotional clearing clutter away, so kudos to you for getting it sorted, I hope it makes moving much easier xxx
Can I play devil's advocate here? Only because my H is also very critical and often responds badly to reasonable requests too. Your timing was terrible on the emailing school thing, he was knackered and nobody responds well when they're knackered. It must also have been a bit of a shock to see the house (which he probably still sees as his even though he's walked away) cleared of so much stuff (presumably some of it his), especially if he was tired and grumpy and not expecting to walk into your clutter clearing. His behaviour was crap, but you could have handled it more sensitively by validating his feelings more here. I struggle so much with asserting myself and deflecting critical behaviour, but it's much easier to see where other people can improve, lol
Now let me congratulate you (nobody in your family will...) because you sorted ALL of everyone's crap on YOUR week off while they were off having fun. That must have been so frustrating for you, why do we mums get saddled with all the crap? It's hard work and unexpectedly emotional clearing clutter away, so kudos to you for getting it sorted, I hope it makes moving much easier xxx
Re: Standing vs standing still - 02/24/20 02:13 PM
Originally Posted by dillydaf
Now let me congratulate you (nobody in your family will...) because you sorted ALL of everyone's crap on YOUR week off while they were off having fun. That must have been so frustrating for you, why do we mums get saddled with all the crap? It's hard work and unexpectedly emotional clearing clutter away, so kudos to you for getting it sorted, I hope it makes moving much easier xxx
Can I second this? It is hard work - physically and emotionally, and it takes time, and it is thankless, and you're probably going to get criticism rather than appreciation for it, even though it directly benefits everyone who lives in the house and even indirectly benefits your H if it means the house sale goes through more easily and there is less sorting for him to do himself.
It is hard not to feel resentful after doing work like this. I suffer from this myself. Some days I feel all I do is follow my children and H around and pick up and put away things after them, because it is easier than dealing with the whining and complaints when I ask them to show a bit of respect to me and the house. I know it's not the same situation, but I can just empathise with what a tough week it was for you and how hard you worked anyway.
Re: Standing vs standing still - 02/24/20 05:06 PM
Why the flip is he upstairs taking a nap? If he can't even be civil then he can nap at his own place.
Re: Standing vs standing still - 02/24/20 11:08 PM
FS, the under-the-breath "shut up" would have made my head explode. I have one hundred percent been there, when H is acting irrationally and can't deal with the fact that he is, he knows it, you know it, and you aren't going to fight back with him and so he has to just let something little like that slip out. Kudos for not saying anything. Just reading it I wanted to grab him and stop him from going up the stairs to NAP in YOUR HOUSE and tell him behavior like that is not acceptable-- I think because even in reading it I was transported back to similar interactions with my H in the past.
Yes, it was probably a big shock to see the house, and he has all these unprocessed feelings around it and the M and what this all means. And yes, he was probably totally exhausted. Yes, yes, yes. Still. Impressed you kept your head.
Also, great job on all that work. We spent all day Sunday doing the same just with the children's stuff and I had so many times when I was about to lose it because the kids were whining about not wanting to give something away they had literally never touched in a year and acting like snotty entitled little brats. I was questioning my parenting, my life choices, why we have so much GD stuff all over. (Luckily, for whatever reason, my H was the mature and composed one through the whole day, kept telling me to sit down and take a break, took the kids out of the house for a couple of hours, was calm and got them to see reason when I was getting all worked up. Not sure how/why that happened but I am grateful.) Anyway, so I 100% feel you on the hard work but also the feeling of accomplishment and peace to get all that junk out of your house.
What's on your plate this week? Time to relax and enjoy having the kids back?
Yes, it was probably a big shock to see the house, and he has all these unprocessed feelings around it and the M and what this all means. And yes, he was probably totally exhausted. Yes, yes, yes. Still. Impressed you kept your head.
Also, great job on all that work. We spent all day Sunday doing the same just with the children's stuff and I had so many times when I was about to lose it because the kids were whining about not wanting to give something away they had literally never touched in a year and acting like snotty entitled little brats. I was questioning my parenting, my life choices, why we have so much GD stuff all over. (Luckily, for whatever reason, my H was the mature and composed one through the whole day, kept telling me to sit down and take a break, took the kids out of the house for a couple of hours, was calm and got them to see reason when I was getting all worked up. Not sure how/why that happened but I am grateful.) Anyway, so I 100% feel you on the hard work but also the feeling of accomplishment and peace to get all that junk out of your house.
What's on your plate this week? Time to relax and enjoy having the kids back?
Re: Standing vs standing still - 02/25/20 05:09 AM
I'm sorry he spoke to you that way. I always wonder if they speak to strangers as disrespectfully. Especially in front of your kids.
The whole thing stinks. Rest and recharge. Take care of yourself. You can do this.
The whole thing stinks. Rest and recharge. Take care of yourself. You can do this.
Re: Standing vs standing still - 02/27/20 08:01 AM
Originally Posted by dillydaff
Do I detect a little self-pity in all this, FS? ... MAKE time to treat yourself
I am GAL'g a lot. I'm not sure if that counts as treating myself but keeps me distracted. But there is definitely a sadness at the moment. And when I have time to think, or am on auto pilot (driving, walking) and my brain has room to wander, I get pulled into the tunnels. Not crazy tunnels like before and more focused on what I should do as opposed to how I feel, and because there are no clear answers, I go round and round in circles.
Yes, the timing was poor. In my defence, he brought up the dual sending of emails to the schools and when I calmly asked him to cc me in future he was the one triggered, not me. The dog thing probably could have waited though. But it wasn't the dual emailing and it wasn't not telling me about the change in plans for the dog. I was annoyed at the lack of communication/consideration he gives to me.
I will take yours (and Alisons and Mays) 'great job' on the house. You are right, no-one else has said thank you - they've noticed, but I guess it is tied into a lot of emotion for them (even the children).
Originally Posted by Yorkie
Why the flip is he upstairs taking a nap?
Because I am more considerate of him than he is of me.
Journalling
The kids have been back two days and are now back with their dad for two days. D13 had a melt down yesterday morning and after improvements in our relationship it feels like we are back at square one. This time it was over a sandwich she'd left on the side from the night before which I threw out in the morning. Apparently she intended to take it to school for lunch. When I tried to explain to her what happened, and also that she should put things like that in the fridge and not randomly on the side. She pretty much told me to stop talking and that everything was my fault and then went into go slow mode making everyone late. I had quite an important meeting in the morning (which I missed) so I lost my temper. I messaged H during the day to tell him and also to back me up on trying to get her to be more responsible and, although he was fairly understanding, it came down to "I don't have these problems when I'm with her". So that s*cked.
H had his first mediation two days ago and he has not mentioned anything to me. The next sessions are joint sessions which we will need to book together. I am not sure if I should leave the ball in his court (i.e wait for him to bring it up) or to ask him how he wants to proceed. I know the right Db action would be to let him do the heavy lifting and just make myself available, prepare in the background, but being my H, it may never move beyond the first mediation session. I really don't know. Do I sit on my hands and then go through this again in six months??
Re: Standing vs standing still - 02/27/20 01:03 PM
Originally Posted by FlySolo
I am not sure if I should leave the ball in his court (i.e wait for him to bring it up) or to ask him how he wants to proceed. I know the right Db action would be to let him do the heavy lifting and just make myself available, prepare in the background, but being my H, it may never move beyond the first mediation session. I really don't know. Do I sit on my hands and then go through this again in six months??
Oy, yeah that's a tricky one from my perspective. Yes, DB says leave it be, let him guide this unless you truly want a D, which you don't. However. I agree that with your H this could lead to a limbo extended for quite a while, and that's really, really hard.
If the house wasn't going to be sold my thoughts might be different. You are on a path to change and separation. I don't think you can move forward towards your new home without certain details ironed out, and that's what is really needed in this mediation and the steps that may go with it. Otherwise you're just moving limbo from one home to another, and it may get even murkier if H makes himself at home in your new place (ie naps/going through drawers). I could see that happening. I don't think you want that.
So, perhaps you give it a bit of time (a few weeks?) to allow him to do what he will (nothing). And then prod him as you mentioned.
Without that, I think you're right that you would be here again in 6 months. But with more anger built up and resentment and frustration. I don't know that it would change your direction or H's direction by waiting. And I think you're at the point where you do need to take steps to exit this limbo.
I know you're in an especially difficult time now, FS, and I know what we think of your H or R does not matter. Only you matter and what you think. But if I might - I think these changes will ultimately be good. I have no idea what your future holds with you and your H and I don't think he's a bad guy at all. So it's not like I'm thinking "leave him!" in my head - I'm not. I do think though that in your sitch in particular you need to exit this limbo for YOU. You have been creating stability for your kiddos - and even some stability for H! - while you experience great instability internally for so long. I think that was the right way to handle things. And now, from my perspective, I think this movement in a new direction to give YOU stability and not this limbo is the right move.
Re: Standing vs standing still - 02/29/20 10:27 AM
How is the house stuff going FS? Re the mediation stuff, I have no idea. I think you should look after yourself and the kids as far as you can, protect yourself financially as much as possible and make it clear to your H that you don't want D but you can accept it, and then leave it all up to him. I think it will be interesting to see how the power dynamic shifts when you move house!
Re: Standing vs standing still - 03/01/20 07:23 AM
Originally Posted by Yail
So it's not like I'm thinking "leave him!" in my head
Tbh, sometimes the voice in my head screams exactly this. What was a quiet whisper, a tiny feeling of self doubt now yells loudly, he is a lying piece of sh!t, and you are worth more than this. You deserve better than this and you are romanticising the past. Happiness (whatever that might be) is around the corner if you would only open your eyes and your heart to it. I wonder (often) if I push if I have been pushing that voice away out of fear and have, through my own inaction, prolonged this limbo myself.
It does not help that IRL everyone tells me that he is a lying piece of sh!t. As my bf said the other day, it is time to rip the band-aid off.
Journalling
The house prep has taken a back seat this week and I think I am in a bit of a funk. Besides work there has been lots of GAL, binge watching telly and playing games on my phone. I had the kids a couple of nights last week, and tried to present when I had them, but I don't get in from work until after seven which doesn't leave a lot of time to do anything activity wise with them. There is just time to have a quick conversation, help with homework, tidy up a bit, and watch telly with them for an hour, and then put them to bed. It is worse with D13 who literally will spend an hour with me before heading up to her own room (normal teenager behaviour I think). I do have them this weekend and yesterday took them into town to window shop and run some errands. D13 was meeting friends in town, so I did not really spend time with her. Today we are going into London to watch a play - my birthday present from H (which is really a present for the girls) and will cost me more in transport and lunches/dinners than the actual tickets. Yes, what you hear there is bitterness.
H did bring up the mediation on Thursday right after his session. He had moved it from Tuesday, so actually, there was no delay in contacting me. He sent me a message at work asking me to call him so we could go through the details. I called and, as expected, it quickly turned into a yelling match down the phone. He is adamant about what he wants. 50/50 on everything with no child maintenance/support and no spousal. I told him (again) I was not seeking spousal (but reserved right to change our minds if either of our work sitch changed), was happy with 50/50 split of assets, but I would only support 50/50 childcare as long as the days he had them were fixed. If they were not fixed, then the ratio would go in accordance with whatever overnights he could do which were fixed and that we would use the government rates to decide how much he would pay. Anyway, it deteriorated until I eventually hung up.
The other big thing that happened this week had to do with D10. There was an incident on the WhatsApp group that the kids in her year have set up. She wasn't a part of it (in fact, she was away on the cruise and only saw it when her wifi kicked in) but the three children involved are children of good friends of mine. Basically two of the children were swearing and one called the other stupid and a d**k. It could be seen as bulling by an over anxious parent but from what D10 said, it sounded more like banter gone too far. It didn't sound malicious. And to me, bulling is systematic and malicious. Anyway an email was sent out, and H asked the children about it and then passed the info to me in an email. I spoke to the mum of the child who had been swearing because I thought she should know so she could a) deal with it however she wanted to, and b) she didn't get ambushed at the school. She spoke to the other mum and now a complaint has been raised about H gossiping about her and calling her child a bully. After receiving the email, H called me up to yell some abuse - something about telling me things in confidence, hoped I was happy, bringing the children into it blah blah blah. Unfortunately I was 3 glasses of champagne in at a friends 40th birthday afternoon tea, and I yelled abuse back then hung up him.
So, not a great week on the db front.
Re: Standing vs standing still - 03/01/20 07:46 AM
Oh, FS... I am thinking of you and so, so, so feeling for you. I can imagine exactly the situation (again because I feel our Hs are so similar in so many ways).
I hope you aren't feeling badly about hanging up on him. He deserved it. Both times, and you are under no obligation to take abuse from him. In the mediation case you are 110% in the right-- wtf is he thinking that there would be a 50/50 childcare arrangement but he could actually end up doing whatever he pleased? Unbelievable. And he's clearly just feeling guilty and bad about the other mums thinking he's a jerk (I would bet other things beyond this one incident are leaking into him feeling like this, like the fact that he left you and what he imagines the other moms think about that, plus the bunny boiler at school) and wanted to take it out on you. Good for you for not letting him do that. And if you let off some steam in the meantime.... oh well. We can't all be saints every day.
I so badly want for you a mental break and be able to spend a little time not in a funk. Is there anything you can do? take an afternoon off of work and pick them up early from school and do something silly and fun?
On the fear and letting go... I think if you can make that happen, release your fear and just let go and let what comes come... I feel that doesn't necessarily mean you're letting hope go for R with your H. it just means you're going to be okay no matter what happens. Which you know you are.
Finally, just wanted to tell you that you were a huge inspiration to me... I dropped off an entire car load of giveaway today and threw out six giant bags of kid trash. It feels AMAZING. Thank you.
(((FlySolo))) we are here for you!
I hope you aren't feeling badly about hanging up on him. He deserved it. Both times, and you are under no obligation to take abuse from him. In the mediation case you are 110% in the right-- wtf is he thinking that there would be a 50/50 childcare arrangement but he could actually end up doing whatever he pleased? Unbelievable. And he's clearly just feeling guilty and bad about the other mums thinking he's a jerk (I would bet other things beyond this one incident are leaking into him feeling like this, like the fact that he left you and what he imagines the other moms think about that, plus the bunny boiler at school) and wanted to take it out on you. Good for you for not letting him do that. And if you let off some steam in the meantime.... oh well. We can't all be saints every day.
I so badly want for you a mental break and be able to spend a little time not in a funk. Is there anything you can do? take an afternoon off of work and pick them up early from school and do something silly and fun?
On the fear and letting go... I think if you can make that happen, release your fear and just let go and let what comes come... I feel that doesn't necessarily mean you're letting hope go for R with your H. it just means you're going to be okay no matter what happens. Which you know you are.
Finally, just wanted to tell you that you were a huge inspiration to me... I dropped off an entire car load of giveaway today and threw out six giant bags of kid trash. It feels AMAZING. Thank you.
(((FlySolo))) we are here for you!
Re: Standing vs standing still - 03/01/20 01:40 PM
Ah, FS - I don't blame you for things getting heated. It seems obvious to me that your H is terrified about losing control: once you sell the house and formalise the separation agreement or divorce, he is not going to be able to call the shots. You are being entirely, entirely reasonable in what you are asking for, and it is in the best interests of your daughter's. He can't have a job of the type he does and expect you to work around him and do childcare at his convenience: that might be what you'd expect of a wife, but not a co-parent. Co-parents need set schedules. He knows that. He's terrified, isn't he? I almost feel sorry for him, though I kind of expect that as you stick to your guns and as mediation progresses and it becomes clear what he wants is not going to happen, then he's probably going to act out more. I hope you get that mental space that you need. x
Re: Standing vs standing still - 03/01/20 06:48 PM
Oh FS, I wish I could do the same thing to you I do with my bestie to cheer her up.
I text her ridiculous GIFS all day long at work. Silly ones, slightly flirty ones, GIFs just saying "hey!" so she knows I'm thinking of her during her rough day(s).
I know that funk well that you are in. It has visited me many times. Use it to stay caught up on sleep if possible, and allow yourself to be in it without guilt. It will pass because you are not the type of person where this is your normal way of being.
Do you like puzzles? Sometimes doing a puzzle when binging tv is one of those nice things to be engaged in something while relaxing. It also might encourage D13 to be present while not being required to talk. Talking for angsty teens is not what they want to do, for sure. Would it encourage her to pause and put in a piece or two each time she passed by? I'm a strong believer that sometimes people need things to do with their hands in social situations (spoken like a true introvert, huh?) to feel like they can be there without pressure.
Ok for today's silly GIF I send you one truly out of left field....Thumper on Ice. You know, from Bambi? See if you can find a GIF of Thumper sliding and spinning on ice and laughing. That's the random one I'm sending you today just for silliness.
I text her ridiculous GIFS all day long at work. Silly ones, slightly flirty ones, GIFs just saying "hey!" so she knows I'm thinking of her during her rough day(s).
I know that funk well that you are in. It has visited me many times. Use it to stay caught up on sleep if possible, and allow yourself to be in it without guilt. It will pass because you are not the type of person where this is your normal way of being.
Do you like puzzles? Sometimes doing a puzzle when binging tv is one of those nice things to be engaged in something while relaxing. It also might encourage D13 to be present while not being required to talk. Talking for angsty teens is not what they want to do, for sure. Would it encourage her to pause and put in a piece or two each time she passed by? I'm a strong believer that sometimes people need things to do with their hands in social situations (spoken like a true introvert, huh?) to feel like they can be there without pressure.
Ok for today's silly GIF I send you one truly out of left field....Thumper on Ice. You know, from Bambi? See if you can find a GIF of Thumper sliding and spinning on ice and laughing. That's the random one I'm sending you today just for silliness.
Re: Standing vs standing still - 03/09/20 09:39 AM
How's things FS? Gosh, but this whole thing is so EXHAUSTING isn't it? I can kind of understand now how people get Ded in a massive rush, there is so much uncertainty when things drag out indefinitely. I know someone who got Ded just after my H left and she went straight into a new serious R and says how happy she is. But then both she and her ex were in agreement that they wanted D. I don't know how common that is. One person not wanting it and one person not being sure if they want it makes things a whole lot more complicated doesn't it?
Anyway, I hope things are going ok for you, the mediation and negotiating with someone unwilling to be reasonable sounds extra hard, particularly if D isn't what you want (())
Anyway, I hope things are going ok for you, the mediation and negotiating with someone unwilling to be reasonable sounds extra hard, particularly if D isn't what you want (())
Re: Standing vs standing still - 03/12/20 01:45 AM
Thinking of you.
Re: Standing vs standing still - 03/12/20 03:19 AM
Originally Posted by FlySolo
Originally Posted by Yail
So it's not like I'm thinking "leave him!" in my head
H did bring up the mediation on Thursday right after his session. He had moved it from Tuesday, so actually, there was no delay in contacting me. He sent me a message at work asking me to call him so we could go through the details. I called and, as expected, it quickly turned into a yelling match down the phone. He is adamant about what he wants. 50/50 on everything with no child maintenance/support and no spousal. I told him (again) I was not seeking spousal (but reserved right to change our minds if either of our work sitch changed), was happy with 50/50 split of assets, but I would only support 50/50 childcare as long as the days he had them were fixed. If they were not fixed, then the ratio would go in accordance with whatever overnights he could do which were fixed and that we would use the government rates to decide how much he would pay. Anyway, it deteriorated until I eventually hung up.
The other big thing that happened this week had to do with D10. There was an incident on the WhatsApp group that the kids in her year have set up. She wasn't a part of it (in fact, she was away on the cruise and only saw it when her wifi kicked in) but the three children involved are children of good friends of mine. Basically two of the children were swearing and one called the other stupid and a d**k. It could be seen as bulling by an over anxious parent but from what D10 said, it sounded more like banter gone too far. It didn't sound malicious. And to me, bulling is systematic and malicious. Anyway an email was sent out, and H asked the children about it and then passed the info to me in an email. I spoke to the mum of the child who had been swearing because I thought she should know so she could a) deal with it however she wanted to, and b) she didn't get ambushed at the school. She spoke to the other mum and now a complaint has been raised about H gossiping about her and calling her child a bully. After receiving the email, H called me up to yell some abuse - something about telling me things in confidence, hoped I was happy, bringing the children into it blah blah blah. Unfortunately I was 3 glasses of champagne in at a friends 40th birthday afternoon tea, and I yelled abuse back then hung up him.
So, not a great week on the db front.
I can relate to this as my husband is incredibly triggered with child sharing and freaks out about it. We have gone back and forth and raised voices, etc. And as you can imagine, nothing gets resolved. My thought is, you've told him what you think. If he brings all this up again, I would say, "we can address this in mediation." There's just no point in talking about it again, and it just causes so much heartache.
As for the bullying incident, he can make whatever point he wants, but berating you about it is not okay either. I'm sorry you experienced this. Hope you are doing okay.
Re: Standing vs standing still - 03/21/20 06:37 PM
Hi FS,
Just checking in and hope you're doing OK in this crazy time.
xx M
Just checking in and hope you're doing OK in this crazy time.
xx M
Re: Standing vs standing still - 03/25/20 10:10 AM
Hi everyone,
Firstly, what a crazy couple of weeks. I, like everyone else, am stuck at home. I am able to work from home, which is a godsend at the moment. It means there is at least [i] some [/] human interaction, and it provides a kind of routine to my days.
I've just read through Dilly's thread about how she feels coping with BD has made her more able to deal with what is going on now in the world, that by just knowing she could get through that, has given her the mental and physical resilience to deal with this. It would be so easy to fall apart now, get caught up in the panic and the fear, but she is right, what got us through our separations will get us through this - keeping busy, meditating, exercise and making small incremental improvements. Most importantly I guess, its having learnt to be comfortable and happy in my own company. TBH what I am finding is I need to force myself to interact with others.
Anyway, I am ok. Coping. Happy. Keeping busy.
My relationship with D13 has gotten worse and she has not spoken to me in nearly a month. She has largely been living at her dads (he has not been flying much). It all started, as usual, about us running late. We had to pick up D10 from her tutors (we were already late) and then head into London to watch a show. I had tried to get D13 to wake up 45 minutes before we were due to leave but she grumbled at me. I tried again 15 mins later and she grumpily got up and I left her to getting ready. When we were due to leave, I shouted up, I'm ready whenever you are, and then waited downstairs. 15 minutes later I went up and told her we really needed to go as we were now late for D10's pick up and would be late for the show if we stayed any longer. She said she wasn't ready so I waited another 15 minutes and eventually told her if she wasn't ready, I would leave without her. She shouted she didn't want to go anyway and I left - D10's tutoring had finished 15 mins ago and it would take me 15 mins to get there and the show (1.5 hours away) started in 1.5 hours. I called my MIL in a panic and asked her what I should do (go back for D13 and miss the show, or take D10 to the show without D13). My MIL said she would come by and look after D13 as D10 was really looking forward to watching the show (it was the Harry Potter stage play). D13 hasn't spoken to me since, though to be honest, she has been able to avoid me by staying at her dads or my MILs. She also does not eat at home - she doesn't want to be around me, so sits in her room and refuses to join in on meal times. She sneaks down when I am in the shower or running an errand and grabs whatever she can (snacks, fruit etc) but she has lost a lot of weight. I have told H that I think it is better she stay with him when he is around so at least she is not starving herself. I am not sure what to do - do I let her continue to stay with her dad (and avoid me) or do I tell him to stop enabling her avoidance?
H has been OK throughout, though he has taken her side on a lot of things - he keeps coming back and having a go at me for silly things like not getting her the food she likes (pretty hard when she won't tell me what she wants and she won't go to the shops with me) or allowing her room to get into a state (she screams when I go in there or if I move anything). He also says I haven't apologised or made any effort, but both of these are difficult when she is never here, she won't talk to me when she is or she tells me to 'shut up' when I try and talk to her.
It reminds me of how he was immediately post BD - though when he did talk, it was with venom, and because it is like BD, I guess my coping strategies have evolved. I am friendly and chatty when I do see her, though I don't get much of a response, and I am not challenging her choices to stay in her room or stay at her dads. I try and control my moods when she is rude or dismissive of me. Because I don't react H thinks I am emotionally detached from her, but I don't know how else to react. I ask a question like "Hi honey, how was your day" and I get no response, so I turn and ask D10 the same question (who has probably run across the room to give me a cuddle).
On the house front, things are on hold until the coronavirus thing settles down. Not much chance of viewings during a pandemic. Ditto on the mediation. He seems to be content with waiting - he has many times said he doesn't want to sell the house and has even offered to swap (i.e. he takes the house and I move out), though this will never work because he simply can't afford it, so suspect it was a guttural response to my saying that I can't afford to keep it. He back tracked quickly when I said I would be happy with him moving in.
We are coping well with co-parenting during lock down, mainly because I have worked around him (as usual). He wants the kids more and I have let him. It works for me given I am still working, but I do miss them and hope that my standing aside does not come across to them as I don't want them. I hope he is framing things in a way that doesn't suggest I don't want them.
Anyway, that's my update. I have read most of the threads I follow and will respond at some point today.
Hope everyone is keeping well, safe and sane in this crazy time. If there is one thing I've learned, it is that this too will pass.
((Hugs))
Firstly, what a crazy couple of weeks. I, like everyone else, am stuck at home. I am able to work from home, which is a godsend at the moment. It means there is at least [i] some [/] human interaction, and it provides a kind of routine to my days.
I've just read through Dilly's thread about how she feels coping with BD has made her more able to deal with what is going on now in the world, that by just knowing she could get through that, has given her the mental and physical resilience to deal with this. It would be so easy to fall apart now, get caught up in the panic and the fear, but she is right, what got us through our separations will get us through this - keeping busy, meditating, exercise and making small incremental improvements. Most importantly I guess, its having learnt to be comfortable and happy in my own company. TBH what I am finding is I need to force myself to interact with others.
Anyway, I am ok. Coping. Happy. Keeping busy.
My relationship with D13 has gotten worse and she has not spoken to me in nearly a month. She has largely been living at her dads (he has not been flying much). It all started, as usual, about us running late. We had to pick up D10 from her tutors (we were already late) and then head into London to watch a show. I had tried to get D13 to wake up 45 minutes before we were due to leave but she grumbled at me. I tried again 15 mins later and she grumpily got up and I left her to getting ready. When we were due to leave, I shouted up, I'm ready whenever you are, and then waited downstairs. 15 minutes later I went up and told her we really needed to go as we were now late for D10's pick up and would be late for the show if we stayed any longer. She said she wasn't ready so I waited another 15 minutes and eventually told her if she wasn't ready, I would leave without her. She shouted she didn't want to go anyway and I left - D10's tutoring had finished 15 mins ago and it would take me 15 mins to get there and the show (1.5 hours away) started in 1.5 hours. I called my MIL in a panic and asked her what I should do (go back for D13 and miss the show, or take D10 to the show without D13). My MIL said she would come by and look after D13 as D10 was really looking forward to watching the show (it was the Harry Potter stage play). D13 hasn't spoken to me since, though to be honest, she has been able to avoid me by staying at her dads or my MILs. She also does not eat at home - she doesn't want to be around me, so sits in her room and refuses to join in on meal times. She sneaks down when I am in the shower or running an errand and grabs whatever she can (snacks, fruit etc) but she has lost a lot of weight. I have told H that I think it is better she stay with him when he is around so at least she is not starving herself. I am not sure what to do - do I let her continue to stay with her dad (and avoid me) or do I tell him to stop enabling her avoidance?
H has been OK throughout, though he has taken her side on a lot of things - he keeps coming back and having a go at me for silly things like not getting her the food she likes (pretty hard when she won't tell me what she wants and she won't go to the shops with me) or allowing her room to get into a state (she screams when I go in there or if I move anything). He also says I haven't apologised or made any effort, but both of these are difficult when she is never here, she won't talk to me when she is or she tells me to 'shut up' when I try and talk to her.
It reminds me of how he was immediately post BD - though when he did talk, it was with venom, and because it is like BD, I guess my coping strategies have evolved. I am friendly and chatty when I do see her, though I don't get much of a response, and I am not challenging her choices to stay in her room or stay at her dads. I try and control my moods when she is rude or dismissive of me. Because I don't react H thinks I am emotionally detached from her, but I don't know how else to react. I ask a question like "Hi honey, how was your day" and I get no response, so I turn and ask D10 the same question (who has probably run across the room to give me a cuddle).
On the house front, things are on hold until the coronavirus thing settles down. Not much chance of viewings during a pandemic. Ditto on the mediation. He seems to be content with waiting - he has many times said he doesn't want to sell the house and has even offered to swap (i.e. he takes the house and I move out), though this will never work because he simply can't afford it, so suspect it was a guttural response to my saying that I can't afford to keep it. He back tracked quickly when I said I would be happy with him moving in.
We are coping well with co-parenting during lock down, mainly because I have worked around him (as usual). He wants the kids more and I have let him. It works for me given I am still working, but I do miss them and hope that my standing aside does not come across to them as I don't want them. I hope he is framing things in a way that doesn't suggest I don't want them.
Anyway, that's my update. I have read most of the threads I follow and will respond at some point today.
Hope everyone is keeping well, safe and sane in this crazy time. If there is one thing I've learned, it is that this too will pass.
((Hugs))
Re: Standing vs standing still - 03/25/20 04:29 PM
FS - that sounds very very hard with your 13 year old. And worrying - for it to continue for a month to the point where she is losing weight is also very difficult. I don't see what else you can do other than what you are doing - especially in these circumstances - and I think reaching out for help from your MIL and your H - which you have done - is also the right thing to do.
I am sure you've thought of it, but I wonder if your 13 year old is reacting to everything that's happening in the world right now - feeling afraid and out of control and taking it out on the closest, safest person? I guess you have to be really careful - as you are being - that conflict over parenting methods doesn't become a proxy for other conflicts between you and your H. (I am saying this to myself as much as you - my son is a little older and while he has meltdowns now and again that aren't age appropriate at all, his behaviour day to day isn't as worrying as your daughter's is). I know my son has in the past become a kind of symbol of respect and control between my H and I, and I am worried in these circumstances that is creeping in again. I don't trust my H to do what is best for him, I think he's motivated more by wanting to be right, wanting to 'win', wanting to get his version of respect. Do you think there's any of that doing on between your H and your daughter, or you and your daughter?
This is very very hard. And our options are so limited right now. What helps when my son is in a sulk is getting the dog involved. Is there something your daughter really loves that you can tempt her towards you with? I'm sure you've already thought of that.
Hang in there!
Edited to add: I guess what strikes me is that you say your H is taking 'her side' on a lot of things. I think my H feels like that too, in conflict between him and our son. I wonder if it might help both of us to take the idea of 'sides' completely off the table, and try as parents to come to some agreement as to what is best for your daughter / my son. As I said, I find that nearly impossible with H when he's in certain moods, and he is of the type who is the world expert on parenting having never read a parenting book, spoken to anyone else about parenting, or considered any other techniques - so it's a very very difficult conversation to have with someone immovable. Is there any agreement or common ground you can seek with your H? Does he have any suggestions for you that you haven't already tried?
I am sure you've thought of it, but I wonder if your 13 year old is reacting to everything that's happening in the world right now - feeling afraid and out of control and taking it out on the closest, safest person? I guess you have to be really careful - as you are being - that conflict over parenting methods doesn't become a proxy for other conflicts between you and your H. (I am saying this to myself as much as you - my son is a little older and while he has meltdowns now and again that aren't age appropriate at all, his behaviour day to day isn't as worrying as your daughter's is). I know my son has in the past become a kind of symbol of respect and control between my H and I, and I am worried in these circumstances that is creeping in again. I don't trust my H to do what is best for him, I think he's motivated more by wanting to be right, wanting to 'win', wanting to get his version of respect. Do you think there's any of that doing on between your H and your daughter, or you and your daughter?
This is very very hard. And our options are so limited right now. What helps when my son is in a sulk is getting the dog involved. Is there something your daughter really loves that you can tempt her towards you with? I'm sure you've already thought of that.
Hang in there!
Edited to add: I guess what strikes me is that you say your H is taking 'her side' on a lot of things. I think my H feels like that too, in conflict between him and our son. I wonder if it might help both of us to take the idea of 'sides' completely off the table, and try as parents to come to some agreement as to what is best for your daughter / my son. As I said, I find that nearly impossible with H when he's in certain moods, and he is of the type who is the world expert on parenting having never read a parenting book, spoken to anyone else about parenting, or considered any other techniques - so it's a very very difficult conversation to have with someone immovable. Is there any agreement or common ground you can seek with your H? Does he have any suggestions for you that you haven't already tried?
Re: Standing vs standing still - 03/25/20 05:19 PM
Hi Alison,
I think I am handling it the best way I can, though in the past I have lost my temper, mainly when her sulks were causing me to be late for work or D10 late for school. I know its selfish to say, but in many ways her spending time with H has made for a smoother household. It has also helped that she wants to avoid conflict, so she stays in her room, and is more careful about not leaving a 'footprint' (like picking up towels, tidying after herself when she uses the kitchen). Her room is a state, but that's her safe place so I have avoided saying anything.
When I say he takes her side, he doesn't do it consciously. He is biased towards thinking the worst of me, and add to that D13's own perception bias, together, they feed of each other. I think he is trying to control it though. The other day (before the lock down) he had taken her to football and when they returned he tried to get her to tell me about the game - he said it was very close and exciting and then turned to her and said "tell mummy all about it". She just looked down and walked out of the room. He looked at me and shrugged. He also has suggested I change the wall paper on my phone (D10 is on the lock screen and D13 is the wall paper once it opens) because he says she pointed it out as evidence that I didn't care about her. I guess it is an easy change to make. He is trying. He really does love his children. He has had them a lot - I've been on my own for two days now (he brings them by in the evening) - and I guess that is because he wants to be with them. Just oblivious to the fact that it supports D13 avoiding me and that I really really do miss my kids and that being alone in this large house in many ways s*cks.
I really don't know what to think anymore. For a man who wanted his own space he is now wanting it invaded a lot by his children. The split at the moment isn't even 50/50 - it is closer to 70/30 in his favor. Its like he is done with the single life, and now wants our old life back, just this time without me in it.
I realise that sounds kind of morbid. It really isn't meant to. I am on the phone all day with people (work, friends) and there is a lot of laughter and banter and none family stuff being shared. I am cooking proper home cooked meals and (freezing the majority) and I even baked a banana bread today which made the house smell amazing), meditating regularly and I have watched a ridiculous amount of telly in the evening. My house is so tidy it is ridiculous. I am forever wiping down benches or shifting laundry. It is nice to have time at home.
I think I am handling it the best way I can, though in the past I have lost my temper, mainly when her sulks were causing me to be late for work or D10 late for school. I know its selfish to say, but in many ways her spending time with H has made for a smoother household. It has also helped that she wants to avoid conflict, so she stays in her room, and is more careful about not leaving a 'footprint' (like picking up towels, tidying after herself when she uses the kitchen). Her room is a state, but that's her safe place so I have avoided saying anything.
When I say he takes her side, he doesn't do it consciously. He is biased towards thinking the worst of me, and add to that D13's own perception bias, together, they feed of each other. I think he is trying to control it though. The other day (before the lock down) he had taken her to football and when they returned he tried to get her to tell me about the game - he said it was very close and exciting and then turned to her and said "tell mummy all about it". She just looked down and walked out of the room. He looked at me and shrugged. He also has suggested I change the wall paper on my phone (D10 is on the lock screen and D13 is the wall paper once it opens) because he says she pointed it out as evidence that I didn't care about her. I guess it is an easy change to make. He is trying. He really does love his children. He has had them a lot - I've been on my own for two days now (he brings them by in the evening) - and I guess that is because he wants to be with them. Just oblivious to the fact that it supports D13 avoiding me and that I really really do miss my kids and that being alone in this large house in many ways s*cks.
I really don't know what to think anymore. For a man who wanted his own space he is now wanting it invaded a lot by his children. The split at the moment isn't even 50/50 - it is closer to 70/30 in his favor. Its like he is done with the single life, and now wants our old life back, just this time without me in it.
I realise that sounds kind of morbid. It really isn't meant to. I am on the phone all day with people (work, friends) and there is a lot of laughter and banter and none family stuff being shared. I am cooking proper home cooked meals and (freezing the majority) and I even baked a banana bread today which made the house smell amazing), meditating regularly and I have watched a ridiculous amount of telly in the evening. My house is so tidy it is ridiculous. I am forever wiping down benches or shifting laundry. It is nice to have time at home.
Re: Standing vs standing still - 03/25/20 08:00 PM
It doesn't sound morbid. This is an exceptionally difficult time for families where the relationships are unstrained - for those who are navigating more difficult territory, it's even worse than that. You are doing all you can. And like you say, your H loves his daughters and is doing what he can for them. Neither of you need to be perfect parents right now, or ever.
Do you think your daughter might be using these behaviours as a way of getting your H and you to talk to each other? I'm sure you've already thought of that too. It might be her last ditch attempt to force some kind of talk or accommodation between the two of you.
Do you think your daughter might be using these behaviours as a way of getting your H and you to talk to each other? I'm sure you've already thought of that too. It might be her last ditch attempt to force some kind of talk or accommodation between the two of you.
Re: Standing vs standing still - 03/28/20 01:44 PM
I'm glad you are safe and well and looking after yourself FS. Your 13 year old: teenagers are hard enough to deal with in normal times let alone during a pandemic! I vividly remember being 14 and HATING my mum. I was horrible to her. I regret my behaviour now obviously, but I do wish she had been more assertive in dealing with my horrible behaviour. But it is so difficult for a mum to do this, we are all just muddling through. I was probably closer to my dad for a few years when I was a teenager, and there was no D and my parents have always had a strong M. So to some extent this sitch just exacerbates a normal teen transition. You're safe and she loves you so she can afford to be horrible to you (does this sound familiar to any BDed spouses on here?!) Just keep telling her you love her and when her behaviour is unacceptable, and I hope she pulls through this phase. So many of my friends have teen daughters with severe mental health issues right now, two have been sectioned after suicide attempts. Unimaginably stressful at any time let alone during this crisis.
Keep looking after yourself xxx
Keep looking after yourself xxx
Re: Standing vs standing still - 04/07/20 08:00 AM
hi FS! Its great to hear you can work from home! It is a blessing when you have to deal with this situation and your DB in parallel. I was going to add a comment as dillydaf just did, I remember being around 14 and an absolute idiot with my parents, like I wanted to grow up and get my freedom asap. I do not know your situation with her but I would say do not punish yourself too much, be fun and positive and she will be drawn to you.
I have totally changed my attitude towards my S6 from I need to discipline how he is behaving as if he could get away with anything now that we are going through this separation to I will be fun, love him and reward all his positive behaviour and I can tell it has been working wonderfully (my W thinks is the separation and being away form a broken marriage but I am sure my changes have had an effect). Remember this FS, we get the ball rolling, we build up the momentum and the world around will follow!
What things are you doing at home to keep you happy? I just spent a fortune on simracing equipment that is arriving tomorrow
Love, PK
I have totally changed my attitude towards my S6 from I need to discipline how he is behaving as if he could get away with anything now that we are going through this separation to I will be fun, love him and reward all his positive behaviour and I can tell it has been working wonderfully (my W thinks is the separation and being away form a broken marriage but I am sure my changes have had an effect). Remember this FS, we get the ball rolling, we build up the momentum and the world around will follow!
What things are you doing at home to keep you happy? I just spent a fortune on simracing equipment that is arriving tomorrow
Love, PK
Re: Standing vs standing still - 04/13/20 04:37 PM
HI FS. Sorry to hear about your struggles with D13. Such a tough age in a lot of respects. I promise you that this is not going to be a forever thing. You just keep being the parent you are and she will eventually come around. It is hard to sit by and watch her go through this but it is necessary as any attempts on your part to force a change would just result in her seeing you as the problem instead of her having to look in the mirror and take responsibility. Not that I need to say this but it is important you be consistent in your presentation...loving, open and accepting but also maintaining your boundaries and expectations. Kids need that structure even if they think they don’t. Anyway... I know you have got this and are dealing with everything in typical FS fashion. As Pack_19 said...don’t punish yourself. You are doing the best you can in a really difficult time. Sending you lots of long distance (((HUGS)))!!! Be safe and stay healthy!!!
Re: Standing vs standing still - 04/18/20 09:13 AM
Hi FS,
Thinking of you and hoping you are doing well. I have been thinking when I read your threads about what a total a$$hole I was to my mom when I was 13. It was awful. And just to my mom, too, not my dad. I definitely resonate with Alison's comment about the possibility that your D is taking her fears and anxiety out on the closest and safest person. It doesn't make it any easier in the moment, but maybe knowing that her behavior stems from her deep love and trust in you-- and she's acting out because she's a teenager and simply doesn't know how (yet) to control her emotions about everything around her that she has zero control over-- can ease the pain, even just a little bit?
Hope things are going ok.
Thinking of you and hoping you are doing well. I have been thinking when I read your threads about what a total a$$hole I was to my mom when I was 13. It was awful. And just to my mom, too, not my dad. I definitely resonate with Alison's comment about the possibility that your D is taking her fears and anxiety out on the closest and safest person. It doesn't make it any easier in the moment, but maybe knowing that her behavior stems from her deep love and trust in you-- and she's acting out because she's a teenager and simply doesn't know how (yet) to control her emotions about everything around her that she has zero control over-- can ease the pain, even just a little bit?
Hope things are going ok.
Re: Standing vs standing still - 04/19/20 01:11 AM
Thought I'd second May's check-in. I hope you are well my dear. I realize that the majority of the parents in the world have an enormous burden right now of trying to balance their "normal" world while keeping their kids physically safe, educated, and emotionally secure. I'm thinking of you.
Re: Standing vs standing still - 05/02/20 07:20 PM
Hi FS, how are you doing? I can imagine your H has not been working much right now! How are things going? I think we all had vague or serious plans for how our lives were going to change pre-covid and now so much has changed and so much is on hold. I hope you are coping xxx
Re: Standing vs standing still - 05/21/20 02:23 AM
Waving to you, and sending some hellos.
Re: Standing vs standing still - 05/22/20 12:14 AM
Hi all
Thank you for all the messages. I have been checking in from time to time, but have not really had the energy to respond properly. Despite the lock down and quarantine life has been busy (work and helping D10 with her school work). In my downtime I have let myself get lost in the void that is the internet, box-sets and mindless games on my phone and online shopping. And, admittedly I am a little too trigger happy with the 'add to cart' button. But, in summary, I am still gainfully, eating well, meditating or doing yoga when I can (about once a day), touching base with friends, and spending time with the girls cooking/doing art projects. The girls are both healthy and getting use to the remote learning aspects of life at the moment.
H is barely flying at the moment and his salary has been reduced - which means he can have the girls more. He runs the childcare schedule and he wants to have them with him ALOT. He has D10 Monday afternoon to Thursday afternoon and D13 Monday afternoon to Friday afternoon and I have them the other days. This moves a little from week to week but it is more or less a routine now. On the days he has them he brings them back for a couple of hours in the afternoon and on the days I have them, he comes over for a couple of hours to spend time with them - though he spends most of the time outside pottering in the garden or taking our dog for a walk. He doesn't really come inside much anymore other than to say hello/goodbye to the girls, or walk through the house to get to the garden (which has never seen so much attention). Our relationship is still strained so that is probably a factor in why he prefers to be outside. I guess that being in the house is uncomfortable for him as it is now very much 'my house' (in spirit if not in name), particularly as I am here more or less 24/7. He still huffs under his breath when he sees something he doesn't like (like when our dog's water bowl was empty the other day or when ever he sees I've gotten a delivery) but otherwise he keeps himself to himself. Our conversations, when we do talk tend to be about the children, or the lockdown, or the impact of the lockdown on the children. These conversations never go for more than 5 minutes and normally abruptly end because one or the other says something the other disagrees with (he reads the papers extensively, but I am certain he never gets much further down than the headlines, so many of the nuances are lost on him. Either that or he has some sort of perception bias and only takes away the things that support whatever position he wants to take. In any case, our reading of the current 'world' situation is often in conflict and rather than have an argument, one or the other, or both of us will end most conversations abruptly. For the newbies on here - this is not a good example of validating. But if validation is a one way street ('I understand ...', 'I can see why you see it that way ...') and they are not willing to look at things from another person's point of view, then eventually you WILL feel like a doormat - always willing to listen, never being heard. That doesn't mean you get into an argument. All truths are a matter of perception. I let him have his truth. I have mine.
What else - Oh, i find myself referring to him as my ex in conversations more and more these days. I don't know what this means, but I guess I am getting to a point where I don't think of him as my H anymore. And I am ok with this.
H had wanted me to take a mortgage break (so that I could put the money I saved towards paying his share of the bills) when the pandemic hit. He was trying to work out how he was going to cover his bills whilst he was on reduced salary and I guess he thought I would be willing to cover any shortfall. I refused. I got a "to be clear, under no circumstances would [he] assist [you] financially in the future" message back from him. I wrote something light and offhand in response which equated to a thumbs up emoji. Newbies - this is passive aggressive behaviour and NOT the way to win your ex back.
D13 still is not talking to me. I am OK with this. I let her be and act like nothing has changed between us. I ask her a lot of questions, I start conversations, I send her little messages. She doesn't respond. Straight out ignores me when I ask her a question but I am getting pretty good at putting that aside. As is said here often, you can't control them, you can only control you - so I keep calm and treat each day as a new opportunity to engage with her. I'm not perfect, but I am trying. In many ways her not responding means there aren't any arguments. She is like a ghost in the house and the only evidence that she's been downstairs is the plates and things left in the kitchen. She is also super nice to D10 - offering to help D10 with her homework or asking D10 if she wants to make cakes or go for walks. She never wanted to be aroudn D10, but right now, it's like D10 is her lifeline when her dad's not here. I am happy for D10. She always looked up to her sister and is enjoying that D13 wants to spend time with her. I am also happy D13 has the dad she has. He hasn't always been the dad he is today - he was happy to defer most if not all parental responsibility to me, he could be selfish and he was quick to anger - so the one good thing that has come out of this is he has worked hard to build relationships with the girls, and they are the better for it.
The house sale is still on the cards but on hold. Ditto sessions with the mediator / drafting the separation agreement. H did send an email to the mediator saying that now that things are opening up again, he would like to know if we can schedule a session for mid June. I am guessing that he wants to push forward with agreeing the childcare arrangement as he feels if I agree to a 50/50 split then he doesn't have to pay the bills on the house. I know that he would have deferred all the bills (his own and those relating to the house) whilst we are in lockdown and this has eased the burden whilst he is on reduced pay - but these schemes will end when lockdown ends. I suspect the short to medium term outlook for the aviation industry is not great (even though he says he will be flying a lot in July) and that he is probably concerned about his finances. I think he probably resents that the pandemic has had no impact on my financials - though I am not sure he appreciates the toll it's taking on my wellbeing (this is not a pity party post, I am well and happy, but I would be lying if I said that i don't feel lonely/bored/rudderless from time to time).
I've just re-read this post and realise it sounds a little morbid. It's not meant to - if anything, I wanted to put across a calm acceptance, which is where I think I am at these days. Content to float along knowing I would be happy with any outcome. That, I think, is the true gift having all this time alone - not just the physical alone time of the last three months, but the emotional alone time of the last 2 years.
Not much else to report other than thanks for checking in on me and that I really am OK.
Thank you for all the messages. I have been checking in from time to time, but have not really had the energy to respond properly. Despite the lock down and quarantine life has been busy (work and helping D10 with her school work). In my downtime I have let myself get lost in the void that is the internet, box-sets and mindless games on my phone and online shopping. And, admittedly I am a little too trigger happy with the 'add to cart' button. But, in summary, I am still gainfully, eating well, meditating or doing yoga when I can (about once a day), touching base with friends, and spending time with the girls cooking/doing art projects. The girls are both healthy and getting use to the remote learning aspects of life at the moment.
H is barely flying at the moment and his salary has been reduced - which means he can have the girls more. He runs the childcare schedule and he wants to have them with him ALOT. He has D10 Monday afternoon to Thursday afternoon and D13 Monday afternoon to Friday afternoon and I have them the other days. This moves a little from week to week but it is more or less a routine now. On the days he has them he brings them back for a couple of hours in the afternoon and on the days I have them, he comes over for a couple of hours to spend time with them - though he spends most of the time outside pottering in the garden or taking our dog for a walk. He doesn't really come inside much anymore other than to say hello/goodbye to the girls, or walk through the house to get to the garden (which has never seen so much attention). Our relationship is still strained so that is probably a factor in why he prefers to be outside. I guess that being in the house is uncomfortable for him as it is now very much 'my house' (in spirit if not in name), particularly as I am here more or less 24/7. He still huffs under his breath when he sees something he doesn't like (like when our dog's water bowl was empty the other day or when ever he sees I've gotten a delivery) but otherwise he keeps himself to himself. Our conversations, when we do talk tend to be about the children, or the lockdown, or the impact of the lockdown on the children. These conversations never go for more than 5 minutes and normally abruptly end because one or the other says something the other disagrees with (he reads the papers extensively, but I am certain he never gets much further down than the headlines, so many of the nuances are lost on him. Either that or he has some sort of perception bias and only takes away the things that support whatever position he wants to take. In any case, our reading of the current 'world' situation is often in conflict and rather than have an argument, one or the other, or both of us will end most conversations abruptly. For the newbies on here - this is not a good example of validating. But if validation is a one way street ('I understand ...', 'I can see why you see it that way ...') and they are not willing to look at things from another person's point of view, then eventually you WILL feel like a doormat - always willing to listen, never being heard. That doesn't mean you get into an argument. All truths are a matter of perception. I let him have his truth. I have mine.
What else - Oh, i find myself referring to him as my ex in conversations more and more these days. I don't know what this means, but I guess I am getting to a point where I don't think of him as my H anymore. And I am ok with this.
H had wanted me to take a mortgage break (so that I could put the money I saved towards paying his share of the bills) when the pandemic hit. He was trying to work out how he was going to cover his bills whilst he was on reduced salary and I guess he thought I would be willing to cover any shortfall. I refused. I got a "to be clear, under no circumstances would [he] assist [you] financially in the future" message back from him. I wrote something light and offhand in response which equated to a thumbs up emoji. Newbies - this is passive aggressive behaviour and NOT the way to win your ex back.
D13 still is not talking to me. I am OK with this. I let her be and act like nothing has changed between us. I ask her a lot of questions, I start conversations, I send her little messages. She doesn't respond. Straight out ignores me when I ask her a question but I am getting pretty good at putting that aside. As is said here often, you can't control them, you can only control you - so I keep calm and treat each day as a new opportunity to engage with her. I'm not perfect, but I am trying. In many ways her not responding means there aren't any arguments. She is like a ghost in the house and the only evidence that she's been downstairs is the plates and things left in the kitchen. She is also super nice to D10 - offering to help D10 with her homework or asking D10 if she wants to make cakes or go for walks. She never wanted to be aroudn D10, but right now, it's like D10 is her lifeline when her dad's not here. I am happy for D10. She always looked up to her sister and is enjoying that D13 wants to spend time with her. I am also happy D13 has the dad she has. He hasn't always been the dad he is today - he was happy to defer most if not all parental responsibility to me, he could be selfish and he was quick to anger - so the one good thing that has come out of this is he has worked hard to build relationships with the girls, and they are the better for it.
The house sale is still on the cards but on hold. Ditto sessions with the mediator / drafting the separation agreement. H did send an email to the mediator saying that now that things are opening up again, he would like to know if we can schedule a session for mid June. I am guessing that he wants to push forward with agreeing the childcare arrangement as he feels if I agree to a 50/50 split then he doesn't have to pay the bills on the house. I know that he would have deferred all the bills (his own and those relating to the house) whilst we are in lockdown and this has eased the burden whilst he is on reduced pay - but these schemes will end when lockdown ends. I suspect the short to medium term outlook for the aviation industry is not great (even though he says he will be flying a lot in July) and that he is probably concerned about his finances. I think he probably resents that the pandemic has had no impact on my financials - though I am not sure he appreciates the toll it's taking on my wellbeing (this is not a pity party post, I am well and happy, but I would be lying if I said that i don't feel lonely/bored/rudderless from time to time).
I've just re-read this post and realise it sounds a little morbid. It's not meant to - if anything, I wanted to put across a calm acceptance, which is where I think I am at these days. Content to float along knowing I would be happy with any outcome. That, I think, is the true gift having all this time alone - not just the physical alone time of the last three months, but the emotional alone time of the last 2 years.
Not much else to report other than thanks for checking in on me and that I really am OK.
Re: Standing vs standing still - 05/22/20 02:52 AM
I'm glad to hear from you FS. I can hear you're on the way to calm acceptance. I'm sensing the tension too, but I think we all are.
I'm sorry that D13 is a 13 year old and that I have no words of wisdom or comfort to offer. she's lucky to have you.
I have nothing to offer you but support, hellos, and well wishes. Stay well, my dear.
I'm sorry that D13 is a 13 year old and that I have no words of wisdom or comfort to offer. she's lucky to have you.
I have nothing to offer you but support, hellos, and well wishes. Stay well, my dear.
Re: Standing vs standing still - 05/30/20 10:01 AM
Hi FS,
I think of you often and am glad you posted to update everyone. I'm really impressed with how you're handling the situation with D13. (not a psychologist but) I do wonder if she's taking out her feelings on the one person it is safe to do so with, and you're also seeing her love coming back through her behavior with D10. That part is just so sweet and lovely.
This is so impressive. i work at this constantly, but it never lasts for very long. Any words of wisdom for what helped you get here, besides time?
thanks for the update and hope you're still hanging in there!
I think of you often and am glad you posted to update everyone. I'm really impressed with how you're handling the situation with D13. (not a psychologist but) I do wonder if she's taking out her feelings on the one person it is safe to do so with, and you're also seeing her love coming back through her behavior with D10. That part is just so sweet and lovely.
Originally Posted by FlySolo
HI wanted to put across a calm acceptance, which is where I think I am at these days. Content to float along knowing I would be happy with any outcome. That, I think, is the true gift having all this time alone - not just the physical alone time of the last three months, but the emotional alone time of the last 2 years.
This is so impressive. i work at this constantly, but it never lasts for very long. Any words of wisdom for what helped you get here, besides time?
thanks for the update and hope you're still hanging in there!
Re: Standing vs standing still - 06/12/20 04:03 PM
Hi All
Right, update ....
I am really starting to feel the isolation of lock down now. My family is on the other side of the world and (pre break-up) my H's family had more or less adopted me. Slowly, I have been removed from the family circle so I have had little or no contact with them during this time. There isn't any malice in it, just a natural moving away but it's more evident now that we are in lockdown. The kids and H frequently facetimed his wider family, and now, that lockdown is easing, they visit with his parents. I hear the girls talking about my MIL or my niece, and it's just not something I can really join in on now. Sure I can say "That's great" or "Let's make a cake for nanny for when you go visit" but I can't really join in .
My relationship with D13 is a bit like a roller coaster ride. She no longer flat out ignores me, but she isn't really talking to me. So she is OK to be in the room with me, but not really to engage with me. I keep soldiering on though.
D13 is desperate to become a model. I have contacted a few agencies and the response has been fairly positive. A few are keen to have her on their books but they all have registration/subscription fees. I was keeping MIL and H informed of the progress, i.e forwarding emails from agencies to them, but for each one, as long as a fee was mentioned, they were sure it was a scam and that I was getting D13's hopes up. I can't really win. I sent out a wide net, and for those that respond, I have reviewed their terms and conditions as well as reviews online etc and then decide whether it's a scam or not. I am pretty sure MIL and H think that they will market her for free purely on the basis that she is beautiful.
After a more than normally tense time with D13 the other day, H came over to visit and asked to 'have a word'. I assumed it was about D13 (she had been crying a lot in her room) and he told me he was seeing someone and was going to tell the girls. I just said "ok" and walked away. I had suspected as much as I had caught him out in some lies over the last few months (I think he's been going to see her on weekends) so it wasn't a total shock. Timing wasn't great because of D13 though. It confirmed my suspicions and (like Dilly looking at her H's purchases in the bank statements) I felt a flash of anger at the lying and the timing.
The girls have been with him since monday (and he told me when he came to pick them up monday) and they haven't said anything to me so I am unsure if they know, and aren't saying, or if he lost his courage and hasn't told them.
In any case, he looks miserable when he comes around. Where once he strutted around the house like it was still his home, now he sits on the stairs in the hall and looks uncomfortable and like he would rather be anywhere else.
I was a little shocked and my appetite has gone again and I haven't been sleeping well (this could be unrelated because the insomnia started before he told me), but over all I am fine. I think it was hard for him to finally say that he is seeing someone and is ready to introduce them to the girls because, more than talking about selling the house, more than talking about splitting assets and formalising childcare, telling the girls he has met someone is very very final. It is also the first time he has admitted he has been dating (even though we all knew he was) because somewhere in the recesses of his mind, he always wanted to keep me as a plan B. Again, I am OK. A little more lonely than I was at the beginning of the week, but that has as much to do with lockdown than with him saying he is in a relationship.
It did motivate me to try online dating again. I have decided to up my age range and state very clearly that I am looking to build a lasting connection so hopefully this time round, it won't just be men in their 20's trying to connect with me (as well toned and distracting as they were).
Anyway, that's my update.
I'll try and catch up on a few of your threads tonight.
FS x
Right, update ....
I am really starting to feel the isolation of lock down now. My family is on the other side of the world and (pre break-up) my H's family had more or less adopted me. Slowly, I have been removed from the family circle so I have had little or no contact with them during this time. There isn't any malice in it, just a natural moving away but it's more evident now that we are in lockdown. The kids and H frequently facetimed his wider family, and now, that lockdown is easing, they visit with his parents. I hear the girls talking about my MIL or my niece, and it's just not something I can really join in on now. Sure I can say "That's great" or "Let's make a cake for nanny for when you go visit" but I can't really join in .
My relationship with D13 is a bit like a roller coaster ride. She no longer flat out ignores me, but she isn't really talking to me. So she is OK to be in the room with me, but not really to engage with me. I keep soldiering on though.
D13 is desperate to become a model. I have contacted a few agencies and the response has been fairly positive. A few are keen to have her on their books but they all have registration/subscription fees. I was keeping MIL and H informed of the progress, i.e forwarding emails from agencies to them, but for each one, as long as a fee was mentioned, they were sure it was a scam and that I was getting D13's hopes up. I can't really win. I sent out a wide net, and for those that respond, I have reviewed their terms and conditions as well as reviews online etc and then decide whether it's a scam or not. I am pretty sure MIL and H think that they will market her for free purely on the basis that she is beautiful.
After a more than normally tense time with D13 the other day, H came over to visit and asked to 'have a word'. I assumed it was about D13 (she had been crying a lot in her room) and he told me he was seeing someone and was going to tell the girls. I just said "ok" and walked away. I had suspected as much as I had caught him out in some lies over the last few months (I think he's been going to see her on weekends) so it wasn't a total shock. Timing wasn't great because of D13 though. It confirmed my suspicions and (like Dilly looking at her H's purchases in the bank statements) I felt a flash of anger at the lying and the timing.
The girls have been with him since monday (and he told me when he came to pick them up monday) and they haven't said anything to me so I am unsure if they know, and aren't saying, or if he lost his courage and hasn't told them.
In any case, he looks miserable when he comes around. Where once he strutted around the house like it was still his home, now he sits on the stairs in the hall and looks uncomfortable and like he would rather be anywhere else.
I was a little shocked and my appetite has gone again and I haven't been sleeping well (this could be unrelated because the insomnia started before he told me), but over all I am fine. I think it was hard for him to finally say that he is seeing someone and is ready to introduce them to the girls because, more than talking about selling the house, more than talking about splitting assets and formalising childcare, telling the girls he has met someone is very very final. It is also the first time he has admitted he has been dating (even though we all knew he was) because somewhere in the recesses of his mind, he always wanted to keep me as a plan B. Again, I am OK. A little more lonely than I was at the beginning of the week, but that has as much to do with lockdown than with him saying he is in a relationship.
It did motivate me to try online dating again. I have decided to up my age range and state very clearly that I am looking to build a lasting connection so hopefully this time round, it won't just be men in their 20's trying to connect with me (as well toned and distracting as they were).
Anyway, that's my update.
I'll try and catch up on a few of your threads tonight.
FS x
Re: Standing vs standing still - 06/12/20 08:19 PM
Ouch, FS, that hurts. Hard not to feel rejected even if you don't want him back. And also hard to think of our Hs with someone else to keep them company when we are alone. It's horrible. In the long run I believe we will be the happier ones though, because we didn't lie, cheat and behave immorally. By the way, when I'm on a dating app I ALWAYS swipe left for pilots, there's a reason they're notorious for catting around...
I'm glad things are a little better with D13, the teenage years are rough. My ds2 only talks to me in the car, I have to try hard to think of reasons to drag him out with me though he usually says no...
I'm glad things are a little better with D13, the teenage years are rough. My ds2 only talks to me in the car, I have to try hard to think of reasons to drag him out with me though he usually says no...
Re: Standing vs standing still - 06/13/20 07:29 AM
I don't feel rejected. I was rejected a long time ago and I've had lots of time to deal with that. I think it highlighted how lonely I've been feeling. But it wasn't me spinning with images of he's doing/saying to her in the same way that I use to feel when this first happened and I would imagine him finding someone.
With lockdown easing (and him potentially flying a full roster in July) and him wanting to continue having the children 50% of the time, he needed to find a way that he could merge his non family life with his family life. His job and the time he plans on spending with the children was just not conducive to a 'hidden' relationship. I don't know if the pressure came from her, or it was a decision he reached on his own, but either way, it would not have been an easy one for him to make. Even if he has long given up on us reconciling he loves the kids and would not want to hurt them.
My H is not one for catting around. Maybe a little when we first separated because he was lost and lonely, but he is a family man. He is someone who thinks he wants to be out with his mates drinking/socialising with no responsibilities, but actually, what he wants is a home and a family. But you're right, on the whole, pilots are a weird lot.
With lockdown easing (and him potentially flying a full roster in July) and him wanting to continue having the children 50% of the time, he needed to find a way that he could merge his non family life with his family life. His job and the time he plans on spending with the children was just not conducive to a 'hidden' relationship. I don't know if the pressure came from her, or it was a decision he reached on his own, but either way, it would not have been an easy one for him to make. Even if he has long given up on us reconciling he loves the kids and would not want to hurt them.
My H is not one for catting around. Maybe a little when we first separated because he was lost and lonely, but he is a family man. He is someone who thinks he wants to be out with his mates drinking/socialising with no responsibilities, but actually, what he wants is a home and a family. But you're right, on the whole, pilots are a weird lot.
Re: Standing vs standing still - 06/13/20 08:03 PM
Hi FS,
I've been thinking of you so much throughout all of this. I am glad you are doing OK-- I think you're doing amazingly well.
I think this is a really big change. I know for myself while I still think about the A and my H with AP, it no longer has that spinning, helpless gut-punching feeling... just an acknowledgment that it happened. At least for me, being able to separate the emotional pain from the thoughts was a big step. Though it is still there.
In terms of the loneliness... I think it is also healthy and positive that you can recognize that, and separate those feelings from missing your H (or not as the case may be). Looking forward to hearing the outcomes of the online dating. I also wonder if you can step up the virtual connections with your family and friends who are far away... I have found that the lockdown is making those things easier than they would have been before, lots of old friends connecting over cocktails, even with pretty significant time changes (mimosas for some and cocktail hours for others!) We've been zooming much more frequently with family who are far away, partially for the kids to connect with their grandparents and cousins, but the result is I've found myself texting and talking on the phone much more frequently than before with my brother and my dad (generally I mostly talked with my mom and my dad was there in the background). Also, more text threads with groups of friends... anyway, I just wonder if there are ways to nurture those human connections right now.
And you know there are lots of people here who care about you and always up for listening and thinking through things with you! xx
I've been thinking of you so much throughout all of this. I am glad you are doing OK-- I think you're doing amazingly well.
Originally Posted by FlySolo
I think it highlighted how lonely I've been feeling. But it wasn't me spinning with images of he's doing/saying to her in the same way that I use to feel when this first happened and I would imagine him finding someone.
I think this is a really big change. I know for myself while I still think about the A and my H with AP, it no longer has that spinning, helpless gut-punching feeling... just an acknowledgment that it happened. At least for me, being able to separate the emotional pain from the thoughts was a big step. Though it is still there.
In terms of the loneliness... I think it is also healthy and positive that you can recognize that, and separate those feelings from missing your H (or not as the case may be). Looking forward to hearing the outcomes of the online dating. I also wonder if you can step up the virtual connections with your family and friends who are far away... I have found that the lockdown is making those things easier than they would have been before, lots of old friends connecting over cocktails, even with pretty significant time changes (mimosas for some and cocktail hours for others!) We've been zooming much more frequently with family who are far away, partially for the kids to connect with their grandparents and cousins, but the result is I've found myself texting and talking on the phone much more frequently than before with my brother and my dad (generally I mostly talked with my mom and my dad was there in the background). Also, more text threads with groups of friends... anyway, I just wonder if there are ways to nurture those human connections right now.
And you know there are lots of people here who care about you and always up for listening and thinking through things with you! xx
Re: Standing vs standing still - 06/14/20 03:14 PM
Thank you May. I know there are a lot of people who care about me. But sometimes, just sometimes, I miss having someone give me a real hug. Not a pity party. Just acknowledging how I feel. In anycase, it turns out that he dropped the kids over his mums friday night (presumably so he could go stay over hers) and I am fine with this. I got a little wound up when I found out mostly because he with-held the information, but I was fine with him spending the night with someone else.
So, things have taken a decidedly worst turn generally. Not in terms of chances of R, those were gone a long time ago. Those that are familiar with my thread know that (after he moved out) my H acted all rainbows and unicorns to the world. All, "everything is fine over here, nothing to see". It wasn't terrible. Yes, we were always courteous to each other (colleagues thrown together on a project who didn't really like one another but maintained an air of professionalism) but over the last few days even this veil has slipped. I mentioned he now sits on the stairs (in the hallway) when he is here and can't wait to leave but now, even our messages are cold. He was 2.5 hours late bringing the children around yesterday (I messaged him (politely) at 2 hours - no response). He hasn't responded to a query about our dog, he didn't forward a warning message about a girl (about D13's) age being asked to get into a van around the corner from ours, I sent him a message this morning asking him to confirm if he was bringing the children around today (nothing). It's like he's avoiding me, even on message. Now I know that some of you will scream "pursuit" but it's really not (they are messages about the children which we have always shared). Some will say be thinking about the tone, for info they go something like this "Hey - are you coming around today with the kids and if so, what time?".
I talked to a girlfriend about this and she says it's because he is realising that the weird arrangement we've had going for the last two years (where he got to have his family, his home and his single life) just won't work where there is a third party involved. The limbo/equilibrium is broken and it is making him uncomfortable. Plus, my apparent 'ok'ness with it all probably doesn't help. But honestly, I'm not sure how else I'm supposed to be.
So, things have taken a decidedly worst turn generally. Not in terms of chances of R, those were gone a long time ago. Those that are familiar with my thread know that (after he moved out) my H acted all rainbows and unicorns to the world. All, "everything is fine over here, nothing to see". It wasn't terrible. Yes, we were always courteous to each other (colleagues thrown together on a project who didn't really like one another but maintained an air of professionalism) but over the last few days even this veil has slipped. I mentioned he now sits on the stairs (in the hallway) when he is here and can't wait to leave but now, even our messages are cold. He was 2.5 hours late bringing the children around yesterday (I messaged him (politely) at 2 hours - no response). He hasn't responded to a query about our dog, he didn't forward a warning message about a girl (about D13's) age being asked to get into a van around the corner from ours, I sent him a message this morning asking him to confirm if he was bringing the children around today (nothing). It's like he's avoiding me, even on message. Now I know that some of you will scream "pursuit" but it's really not (they are messages about the children which we have always shared). Some will say be thinking about the tone, for info they go something like this "Hey - are you coming around today with the kids and if so, what time?".
I talked to a girlfriend about this and she says it's because he is realising that the weird arrangement we've had going for the last two years (where he got to have his family, his home and his single life) just won't work where there is a third party involved. The limbo/equilibrium is broken and it is making him uncomfortable. Plus, my apparent 'ok'ness with it all probably doesn't help. But honestly, I'm not sure how else I'm supposed to be.
Re: Standing vs standing still - 06/14/20 03:36 PM
You can't be any other way. It is pretty unacceptable behaviour of him to turn up that late and not to reply. It does sound like he's pretending you don't exist because that makes life easier for him. And if he is as family oriented as you say, it will NOT be easy for him to tell the kids about the OW. He must be feeling horribly guilty. As he should. But it's not your problem. I think I would probably go round him and ask the kids directly what they're up to or what time they are coming home etc. They're old enough to tell you, he's clearly too immature.
And I sooooo feel you on the hugs. Not being able to hug my friends is really horrible, we usually say hello and goodbye with big squeezy hugs and I am missing those so much. I think half the time I want a new man just so I can have some real human physical contact...
And I sooooo feel you on the hugs. Not being able to hug my friends is really horrible, we usually say hello and goodbye with big squeezy hugs and I am missing those so much. I think half the time I want a new man just so I can have some real human physical contact...
Re: Standing vs standing still - 06/14/20 04:07 PM
Originally Posted by FlySolo
I talked to a girlfriend about this and she says it's because he is realising that the weird arrangement we've had going for the last two years (where he got to have his family, his home and his single life) just won't work where there is a third party involved. The limbo/equilibrium is broken and it is making him uncomfortable. Plus, my apparent 'ok'ness with it all probably doesn't help. But honestly, I'm not sure how else I'm supposed to be.
I think your girlfriend is right. He was probably, in some way, in denial about the state of your marriage, what it would be like to have it end, what he has now that he quite likes if you were to formalise your arrangement. And how he's been honest with you about his relationship, and you have reacted as an ex-wife would, with dignity and disinterest - well, the reality of how things are is hitting home. I don't think you can or should be anything other than what you are right now.
Re: Standing vs standing still - 06/14/20 05:18 PM
Hey Alison - Thanks for dropping by and thank you for checking in whilst I was missing in action. Yes - it's hitting home. I can see the stress in his eyes. He has lost weight and is definitively less chirpy.
They have just left (he brings the kids around in the afternoon when he has them for an hour). He walks our dog then sits on the stairs. I asked him as he was leaving what time he is dropping the kids home tomorrow as it hadn't been confirmed yet. He got all antsy and said after they finish their work, I replied, so, around 4 then. He repeated "when they've finished work. If you're not here, then I'll just stay until you're back". I asked him to message me out of courtesy when he was on his way tomorrow, and he went completely off the rails, said he didn't need to message me and stormed off.
I was fairly calm, smiled, told the girls (well D10, D13 had already gotten in the car) and then stewed for a bit. I then sent him a message saying "For the same reasons you do not want me turning up at your home unannounced, I do not want you turning up at mine unannounced. I am respectful of your choices. Please be respectful of mine".
He sent me back one saying "It's not 'your' house. So even though I am tolerant of the fact I have to have them back by a certain time, if we arrive early I will mind them until you get back". I just sent back a "you're being ridiculous and what does 'tolerant' of the fact you have to bring them back by a certain time mean".
Not very db. Not very calm and collected. But he is being utterly ridiculous.
They have just left (he brings the kids around in the afternoon when he has them for an hour). He walks our dog then sits on the stairs. I asked him as he was leaving what time he is dropping the kids home tomorrow as it hadn't been confirmed yet. He got all antsy and said after they finish their work, I replied, so, around 4 then. He repeated "when they've finished work. If you're not here, then I'll just stay until you're back". I asked him to message me out of courtesy when he was on his way tomorrow, and he went completely off the rails, said he didn't need to message me and stormed off.
I was fairly calm, smiled, told the girls (well D10, D13 had already gotten in the car) and then stewed for a bit. I then sent him a message saying "For the same reasons you do not want me turning up at your home unannounced, I do not want you turning up at mine unannounced. I am respectful of your choices. Please be respectful of mine".
He sent me back one saying "It's not 'your' house. So even though I am tolerant of the fact I have to have them back by a certain time, if we arrive early I will mind them until you get back". I just sent back a "you're being ridiculous and what does 'tolerant' of the fact you have to bring them back by a certain time mean".
Not very db. Not very calm and collected. But he is being utterly ridiculous.
Re: Standing vs standing still - 06/14/20 05:55 PM
He sounds like a teenager. Annoyed at the world not being to their liking, and taking it out on the nearest person. I guess the only thing you can do it what you'd do with an unreasonable teenager - live your boundaries calmly, don't take it personally, don't get hooked into a debate over something you have no intention of negotiating about, and scream into a pillow and swear about them with your girlfriends once they are out of earshot...
(That's how I deal with my teenager, anyway...)
(That's how I deal with my teenager, anyway...)
Re: Standing vs standing still - 06/15/20 07:26 PM
You make me laugh Alison ... Yes, very like a teenager. On some level the turning up is about him wanting to know im but bringinf men back to the house and other part abour him showing he is still in control. Ill carry on regardless and keep calling him out when he is being disrespectful.
Im contemplating moving forward with preparing the house for sale. I dont want to do this and have actually been procrastinating about it the last few days. I love this house and it will devastate D13.. I hate him for making me do this.
Im contemplating moving forward with preparing the house for sale. I dont want to do this and have actually been procrastinating about it the last few days. I love this house and it will devastate D13.. I hate him for making me do this.
Re: Standing vs standing still - 06/16/20 04:41 PM
I have a question ...
It has been a week since my H told me he wanted to tell the girls about the person he is seeing. He had them for most of last week and so far, the children have not said anything to me. I suspect he hasn't told them.
I don't know if it makes much difference. I am not going to broach it with the children (unless he mentions it first) but am a little on tender hooks waiting for them to mention something. I would be interested in hearing thoughts as to reasons he might have decided against it.
I think you all know my H well enough to know that he was comfortable with the way things were (he had his flat, could be single and out and about when he wanted, he could have his kids when he wanted, and here I am paying for this big old house that he doesn't want me to sell) ...
I suspect (personally) it was two fold - he was lashing out at me for turning to his mum instead of him when I needed counsel on D13 and he was getting pressure from the OW to bring her out of the shadows.
It has been a week since my H told me he wanted to tell the girls about the person he is seeing. He had them for most of last week and so far, the children have not said anything to me. I suspect he hasn't told them.
I don't know if it makes much difference. I am not going to broach it with the children (unless he mentions it first) but am a little on tender hooks waiting for them to mention something. I would be interested in hearing thoughts as to reasons he might have decided against it.
I think you all know my H well enough to know that he was comfortable with the way things were (he had his flat, could be single and out and about when he wanted, he could have his kids when he wanted, and here I am paying for this big old house that he doesn't want me to sell) ...
I suspect (personally) it was two fold - he was lashing out at me for turning to his mum instead of him when I needed counsel on D13 and he was getting pressure from the OW to bring her out of the shadows.
Re: Standing vs standing still - 06/18/20 11:25 AM
Does it matter why he has or hasn't told the kids? I don't think it does.
My H is also very teenlike in his behaviour. More so even than my teens. We share a kindle account and lately he has been downloading nothing but Frederick Forsyth books! It's pretty funny really. What next, he takes up skateboarding?
I treat my teens with compassion and love and a huge, huge dose of putting up with poor communication, surliness and slobbing about a lot. I'm trying to cultivate the same with H. My teens will grow up though, not so sure about H...
My H is also very teenlike in his behaviour. More so even than my teens. We share a kindle account and lately he has been downloading nothing but Frederick Forsyth books! It's pretty funny really. What next, he takes up skateboarding?
I treat my teens with compassion and love and a huge, huge dose of putting up with poor communication, surliness and slobbing about a lot. I'm trying to cultivate the same with H. My teens will grow up though, not so sure about H...
Re: Standing vs standing still - 06/18/20 11:33 AM
I don't think it matters either, FS. I suspect he probably was playing a game, but he will either tell the girls, or he won't - and in the event that he does tell them, I am sure whatever his motivations or timing, your response to it would be the same. I get that waiting for the axe to drop is a tense feeling, and it isn't fair he's mucking you about, but it seems you're prepared to have a compassionate conversation with your girls whenever they need it, and when they do they will let you know.
Re: Standing vs standing still - 06/18/20 02:24 PM
Thanks guys,
I have stopped worrying about it. He will tell them when he tells them (and I don't think he will now tbh).
Strangely, after a week of being a miserable sod, he was super friendly yesterday - trying to make eye contact (I was the one looking away), trying to engage me in small non-children related small talk. He nearly walked into me at one point (I had to keep stepping backwards to avoid him). He even wanted to show me a video he took of fish he and the girls had seen whilst walking. He said very loudly "D10, come and look at this video" and then "show mummy" (she had started walking away by then and I was in another room so he came over, stood next to me (this never happens) and started to show me the video. I said "Oh, that's nice" and walked away.
This is by far the most engaged his been since he left. I am not reading into it - just a juxtaposition from the interactions from the last two weeks.
I have stopped worrying about it. He will tell them when he tells them (and I don't think he will now tbh).
Strangely, after a week of being a miserable sod, he was super friendly yesterday - trying to make eye contact (I was the one looking away), trying to engage me in small non-children related small talk. He nearly walked into me at one point (I had to keep stepping backwards to avoid him). He even wanted to show me a video he took of fish he and the girls had seen whilst walking. He said very loudly "D10, come and look at this video" and then "show mummy" (she had started walking away by then and I was in another room so he came over, stood next to me (this never happens) and started to show me the video. I said "Oh, that's nice" and walked away.
This is by far the most engaged his been since he left. I am not reading into it - just a juxtaposition from the interactions from the last two weeks.
Re: Standing vs standing still - 06/19/20 05:37 PM
hi FS,
Reading about these interactions-- the good ones, the bad ones, the neutral ones-- is part of what makes the idea of S so hard for me. It is impossible to not wonder, at some level, what is going on in his head and what it all means. Sharing children means they have to be a part of your life forever. UGH.
Sorry if that was unhelpful.
If I was going to mindread, I also think your friend was correct, and he's probably bashing around a bit in his head-- the reality of the S/D, the new GF, telling the children or not, "his" house, his relationship with you. He sees that the comfortable limbo he's enjoyed is ending and that is hard. I might expect more of both ends of the spectrum from him for awhile.
Reading about these interactions-- the good ones, the bad ones, the neutral ones-- is part of what makes the idea of S so hard for me. It is impossible to not wonder, at some level, what is going on in his head and what it all means. Sharing children means they have to be a part of your life forever. UGH.
Sorry if that was unhelpful.
If I was going to mindread, I also think your friend was correct, and he's probably bashing around a bit in his head-- the reality of the S/D, the new GF, telling the children or not, "his" house, his relationship with you. He sees that the comfortable limbo he's enjoyed is ending and that is hard. I might expect more of both ends of the spectrum from him for awhile.
Re: Standing vs standing still - 06/22/20 08:13 AM
Hey May
Yeah - the moods continue. Right now I am trying to focus on me and less on him (his moods, his motivations etc). I understand him well enough to know that his moods are based on guilt (when he tries to be nice) or on trying to impose some punitive measure (when he doesn't get what he wants). I try not to worry about it now.
I had a great day yesterday. The girls and I went to visit a friend whose daughter is close to D13. We sat in the garden and there were a few children there. It was lovely to see D13 laughing and engaged. She even spoke to me a few times (not conversation but not rude either). H was supposed to come over at some point (it was father's day) and I messaged him in the morning to wish him a happy fathers day and to find out if/when he was going to visit the girls. I also thanked him for tidying up the garden the previous day. I got a thanks back and confirmation that he would be visiting the girls but not the time. This is a constant issue with us. He refuses to say what time he is visiting. I didn't react, but simply said (later in the day) a simple "We are going out at 3:30, happy to move around as I know girls would like to see you".
I know you can't nice them back. That is not what this is about. This (for me) is about maintaining a calm consistent demeanor in the face of his chaos. I cannot change things. If neither kindness or anger works, then I would like to (try) choose kindness.
Yeah - the moods continue. Right now I am trying to focus on me and less on him (his moods, his motivations etc). I understand him well enough to know that his moods are based on guilt (when he tries to be nice) or on trying to impose some punitive measure (when he doesn't get what he wants). I try not to worry about it now.
I had a great day yesterday. The girls and I went to visit a friend whose daughter is close to D13. We sat in the garden and there were a few children there. It was lovely to see D13 laughing and engaged. She even spoke to me a few times (not conversation but not rude either). H was supposed to come over at some point (it was father's day) and I messaged him in the morning to wish him a happy fathers day and to find out if/when he was going to visit the girls. I also thanked him for tidying up the garden the previous day. I got a thanks back and confirmation that he would be visiting the girls but not the time. This is a constant issue with us. He refuses to say what time he is visiting. I didn't react, but simply said (later in the day) a simple "We are going out at 3:30, happy to move around as I know girls would like to see you".
I know you can't nice them back. That is not what this is about. This (for me) is about maintaining a calm consistent demeanor in the face of his chaos. I cannot change things. If neither kindness or anger works, then I would like to (try) choose kindness.
Re: Standing vs standing still - 06/22/20 04:38 PM
Originally Posted by Unchien
WAS's will absolutely manipulate the situation so that they are the victim. They can make the LBS feel cornered so that they have choice A (stay in limbo) or choice B (traumatize the kids). This leaves one feeling powerless. You do have control over your own life, even though the WAS's words and actions can make you feel otherwise.
I was stuck for several months with this mentality in my (completely different) situation. I eventually decided on choice C: I decided to have faith that my love for my kids would show through, and I decided I would focus on that. I will NEVER tell my children my version of what happened. Not now, not when they are adults. Maybe they will blame me, maybe my WAW will weaponize them. I did not make this decision trying to be the bigger person... it was the best way I could see through, and I felt like I was giving my children the gift of keeping them out of this awful drama as much as I could. All that kids want is to have 2 loving parents. Perhaps they will judge me, now or in the future. I can't control that.
I was stuck for several months with this mentality in my (completely different) situation. I eventually decided on choice C: I decided to have faith that my love for my kids would show through, and I decided I would focus on that. I will NEVER tell my children my version of what happened. Not now, not when they are adults. Maybe they will blame me, maybe my WAW will weaponize them. I did not make this decision trying to be the bigger person... it was the best way I could see through, and I felt like I was giving my children the gift of keeping them out of this awful drama as much as I could. All that kids want is to have 2 loving parents. Perhaps they will judge me, now or in the future. I can't control that.
I've stolen Unchiens response above from Mays thread. It sat so true with me that I wanted to respond but thought it was better to do it on my thread.
I have been accused of being emotionally empty (i.e. detached), selfish (GAL) and "too little too late" (180). When I went out (with friends) I was neglecting the children, when I act cool and aloof, I am neglecting the children, when I 180 (going the gym, taking care of myself) I am neglecting the children. All of this said within earshot of the kids.
So, thank you unchien, for putting into words what I have felt for so long.
Re: Standing vs standing still - 06/22/20 05:03 PM
Unchien's post was really powerful to me too.
I guess in a functioning marriage, your spouse's response to your actions, the way they 'read' and interpret you, and the adjustments you need to make to make sure each person in the marriage is feeling safe, happy and having their needs met is a constant balancing act.
When the marriage is over - either at BD or when the LBS drops the rope, the opinions of each spouse are none of the other's business, nor should they be.
When we were separated, my H really wanted me to let him know in advance if I was going to go out and if so, who would be looking after Youngest (sometimes I had a female friend sit in with her for a few hours in the evening). If we were together, I'd of course want to take his feelings and judgements into account. When we were S, I relied on my own best judgement, and let him respond to that in any way he saw fit. If he had serious welfare concerns he had options available to him - like calling social services (and being laughed at).
I think some spouses want you to carry on taking their needs and opinions into account even after they've fired you, and they find the transition very difficult. Poor lambs. I remember saying to H, 'but we've separated and we have a childcare agreement that suits us both. What I do with the kids on my time is my business. Do you have safety concerns?' - and him being unable to answer. He didn't have any safety concerns at all, he just didn't like not being Big Chief in the house any more. Again - poor lamb.
I guess in a functioning marriage, your spouse's response to your actions, the way they 'read' and interpret you, and the adjustments you need to make to make sure each person in the marriage is feeling safe, happy and having their needs met is a constant balancing act.
When the marriage is over - either at BD or when the LBS drops the rope, the opinions of each spouse are none of the other's business, nor should they be.
When we were separated, my H really wanted me to let him know in advance if I was going to go out and if so, who would be looking after Youngest (sometimes I had a female friend sit in with her for a few hours in the evening). If we were together, I'd of course want to take his feelings and judgements into account. When we were S, I relied on my own best judgement, and let him respond to that in any way he saw fit. If he had serious welfare concerns he had options available to him - like calling social services (and being laughed at).
I think some spouses want you to carry on taking their needs and opinions into account even after they've fired you, and they find the transition very difficult. Poor lambs. I remember saying to H, 'but we've separated and we have a childcare agreement that suits us both. What I do with the kids on my time is my business. Do you have safety concerns?' - and him being unable to answer. He didn't have any safety concerns at all, he just didn't like not being Big Chief in the house any more. Again - poor lamb.
Re: Standing vs standing still - 06/29/20 07:49 PM
Diary Entry
When I started this thread there were big question marks around what it was I was standing for. Was I simply standing still fearful of an uncertain future and letting some sort of atrophy stop me from moving forward or was there actually hope for my M. I still don't know the answer, but either way, I suspect this will be my last thread in Newcomers and I will either join the piecing or the separated forum.
General update
I went on a date yesterday (stroll in the park). The first in nearly a year, and probably my last for a while. I turned my dating profile off about a week ago (as was finding the the whole thing burdensome) and this was the last chap to make it through. He was the right age, had been through a separation (over 2 years ago), seemed enthusiastic about life, and I found his conversation intelligent, funny and well though out. But when I met him, I simply wasn't feeling it. Whilst he was indeed intelligent and easy to talk to, I didn't feel any sort of spark. After the date he sent a message saying he would like to see me again, perhaps a meal of some sort, and (I cowardly) said that would be lovely but that I have the children next weekend so it would have to wait until the following. Not a lie. But not entirely honest either. I know, I know. I am hoping my lack of enthusiasm will temper his.
I honestly don't think online dating is for me. This is the second time I've tried it and it just doesn't feel natural. But I am not sure what the alternative is. I guess I will just have to be patient and hope that someone comes along who ticks all the boxes and if not, then be happy on my own. Which I think I am (more or less). The thought that my H was found someone does upset me. And yes, I know how stupid that sounds. It is not a raging jealousy. It's sadness, I guess rather than jealousy.
Where I stand with him I do not know. He continues to get upset over stupid things - the other day when the children and I were talking about going away for a long weekend in October, he came out of the rest room (he was picking them up and had stopped to use the toilet) in a foul mood, said to me "we need to chat about formalising holiday dates" and then turned to the children and said "we're going". When I spoke to him about getting the outside of the house cleaned (as it hasn't been done in years) he said "We're not putting the house on the market yet .... I'm not contributing.". He even refuses to go halves on clearing up the childrens playhouse. Apparently "[he] does everything around here". I am trying to keep an even keel (for example, when he said formalising holiday dates, I said "sure" and when he said about not paying for things I said "No problem"). He has also been more critical of things around the house. The windows need cleaning (I have a lot of windows/glass doors), the garden needs mowing, the laundry needs tidying. Just the act of being in the house seems to trigger him at the moment. I am trying not to read into this and more importantly I am trying not to react. Lots of "Sure" and "OK" and "No problem". His texts are so abrupt and rude that my 'perky' responses must be a bit off putting.
The 'OW'
I am not sure if other woman is the correct term. We have been separated a long time but I don't know what to refer to her as. I am still 100% certain that there was no third party when we split. I am also certain that there has been many women since we split. This is just the first that he felt I needed to know about. So, it's been about three weeks since the "We need to have a chat. I am seeing someone. We met before lock down. I have not seen her since lock down began (a lie). It's gotten to that point. I am going to tell the children." monologue (that by the way is not a summary of the conversation - that WAS the conversation with the exclusion of an "OK" from me at the end) and I don't think he has mentioned it to the children yet. Neither has said anything to me. Neither has acted any differently. In any case, I think telling me was him reacting to something I had done (he reacts to some perceived injustice by trying to punish me) and not actually him wanting to tell the children. I assume also, that he is getting some pressure of her to tell the children and the two things were on his mind. But I don't think he has actually told them. So, bar asking him if he has told them, I don't really know. I know that a friend saw him driving around with a dark haired female the other morning so i assume he is still seeing her.
I guess the focus should be on me and how I feel about this three weeks on. I am fine. I was fine when he told me and I am fine now. My behaviour hasn't changed - though he probably thinks it's weird I haven't asked any questions and didn't have a bigger reaction (the ok was akin to shrugging my shoulders). I go back to I am not jealous, just sad. One more nail in the coffin which houses my marriage.
D13
My relationship with D13 is getting better . We are still not chummy but she doesn't ignore me (she acknowledges my questions, she says thank you and I even got a smile the other day) and she doesn't hide away in her room. Small steps. I think lock down has been good for us - bridges haven't been built, but there is a tenuous rope and as long as I am steady, don't let her moods effect me, and maintain my calm, then we may make it to the other side.
When I started this thread there were big question marks around what it was I was standing for. Was I simply standing still fearful of an uncertain future and letting some sort of atrophy stop me from moving forward or was there actually hope for my M. I still don't know the answer, but either way, I suspect this will be my last thread in Newcomers and I will either join the piecing or the separated forum.
General update
I went on a date yesterday (stroll in the park). The first in nearly a year, and probably my last for a while. I turned my dating profile off about a week ago (as was finding the the whole thing burdensome) and this was the last chap to make it through. He was the right age, had been through a separation (over 2 years ago), seemed enthusiastic about life, and I found his conversation intelligent, funny and well though out. But when I met him, I simply wasn't feeling it. Whilst he was indeed intelligent and easy to talk to, I didn't feel any sort of spark. After the date he sent a message saying he would like to see me again, perhaps a meal of some sort, and (I cowardly) said that would be lovely but that I have the children next weekend so it would have to wait until the following. Not a lie. But not entirely honest either. I know, I know. I am hoping my lack of enthusiasm will temper his.
I honestly don't think online dating is for me. This is the second time I've tried it and it just doesn't feel natural. But I am not sure what the alternative is. I guess I will just have to be patient and hope that someone comes along who ticks all the boxes and if not, then be happy on my own. Which I think I am (more or less). The thought that my H was found someone does upset me. And yes, I know how stupid that sounds. It is not a raging jealousy. It's sadness, I guess rather than jealousy.
Where I stand with him I do not know. He continues to get upset over stupid things - the other day when the children and I were talking about going away for a long weekend in October, he came out of the rest room (he was picking them up and had stopped to use the toilet) in a foul mood, said to me "we need to chat about formalising holiday dates" and then turned to the children and said "we're going". When I spoke to him about getting the outside of the house cleaned (as it hasn't been done in years) he said "We're not putting the house on the market yet .... I'm not contributing.". He even refuses to go halves on clearing up the childrens playhouse. Apparently "[he] does everything around here". I am trying to keep an even keel (for example, when he said formalising holiday dates, I said "sure" and when he said about not paying for things I said "No problem"). He has also been more critical of things around the house. The windows need cleaning (I have a lot of windows/glass doors), the garden needs mowing, the laundry needs tidying. Just the act of being in the house seems to trigger him at the moment. I am trying not to read into this and more importantly I am trying not to react. Lots of "Sure" and "OK" and "No problem". His texts are so abrupt and rude that my 'perky' responses must be a bit off putting.
The 'OW'
I am not sure if other woman is the correct term. We have been separated a long time but I don't know what to refer to her as. I am still 100% certain that there was no third party when we split. I am also certain that there has been many women since we split. This is just the first that he felt I needed to know about. So, it's been about three weeks since the "We need to have a chat. I am seeing someone. We met before lock down. I have not seen her since lock down began (a lie). It's gotten to that point. I am going to tell the children." monologue (that by the way is not a summary of the conversation - that WAS the conversation with the exclusion of an "OK" from me at the end) and I don't think he has mentioned it to the children yet. Neither has said anything to me. Neither has acted any differently. In any case, I think telling me was him reacting to something I had done (he reacts to some perceived injustice by trying to punish me) and not actually him wanting to tell the children. I assume also, that he is getting some pressure of her to tell the children and the two things were on his mind. But I don't think he has actually told them. So, bar asking him if he has told them, I don't really know. I know that a friend saw him driving around with a dark haired female the other morning so i assume he is still seeing her.
I guess the focus should be on me and how I feel about this three weeks on. I am fine. I was fine when he told me and I am fine now. My behaviour hasn't changed - though he probably thinks it's weird I haven't asked any questions and didn't have a bigger reaction (the ok was akin to shrugging my shoulders). I go back to I am not jealous, just sad. One more nail in the coffin which houses my marriage.
D13
My relationship with D13 is getting better . We are still not chummy but she doesn't ignore me (she acknowledges my questions, she says thank you and I even got a smile the other day) and she doesn't hide away in her room. Small steps. I think lock down has been good for us - bridges haven't been built, but there is a tenuous rope and as long as I am steady, don't let her moods effect me, and maintain my calm, then we may make it to the other side.
Re: Standing vs standing still - 06/29/20 08:11 PM
Being sad doesn't sound stupid to me, FS. And you are very wise to look your sadness in the eye rather than use online dating to take the edge off it. Your H is probably sad too, in his own way, and acting like a teenager throwing his weight about when he's around you. I am sure being in the house does trigger him. The end of a marriage is a sad, sad thing. But I am so glad that you are making tiny progress with D13. She needs you to be steady and forgiving, as you have been.
Re: Standing vs standing still - 06/30/20 02:01 AM
Hi FS,
I am also really glad to hear about your D13. And you WILL make it to the other side. You're such a steady and graceful and loving parent. She needs that right now, and I still think some of the pushing back on you was because you're the only one she feels safe doing that with and needs to test that you'll always be there for her no matter what.
I'm sorry his teenage behavior is also happening in front of the kids. That is too bad. And honestly, teenage behavior or not, triggered and sad or not, threatening (or whatever) to tell the children about OW because he's having a bad day and wants you to also have a bad day is pretty messed up. I'm glad you didn't react and are feeling OK about it, whatever it is.
What are you thinking these days about the house? Mediation? It feels like it won't be until 2021 that things really calm down, at least where I am. I can't tell if that is a blessing or a curse in any of our situations, though maybe neither. It is what it is.
I am also really glad to hear about your D13. And you WILL make it to the other side. You're such a steady and graceful and loving parent. She needs that right now, and I still think some of the pushing back on you was because you're the only one she feels safe doing that with and needs to test that you'll always be there for her no matter what.
I'm sorry his teenage behavior is also happening in front of the kids. That is too bad. And honestly, teenage behavior or not, triggered and sad or not, threatening (or whatever) to tell the children about OW because he's having a bad day and wants you to also have a bad day is pretty messed up. I'm glad you didn't react and are feeling OK about it, whatever it is.
What are you thinking these days about the house? Mediation? It feels like it won't be until 2021 that things really calm down, at least where I am. I can't tell if that is a blessing or a curse in any of our situations, though maybe neither. It is what it is.
Re: Standing vs standing still - 06/30/20 09:51 AM
I know what the sadness is and I know where it stems from.. Without wanting to romanticise it, I feel like one of those people that always has a sadness in their eyes, even when they're laughing. It is always present and stops me from living my life fully. This round of dating was very different from the round I did last year. Last year it was very much about distractions and physical attraction. This time I was clear (even in my dating profile) that I wanted someone with whom I could build a lasting connection. I even said not to message me if they were looking for something casual. So, when I finally found someone who ticked all those boxes, I was disappointed in the lack of 'spark'. He wore dad jeans and tucked his t-shirts in. He talked about work. The only time I felt engaged was when he discussed his ex-wife and why he left her ('she was complicated' apparently) and the impact on his children.
Yes, the house is a trigger. More so now that selling it is a real and tangible thing. He glances around when he enters, the ever critical eye. But he doesn't fit here anymore. He looks out of place. Not a part of this world. Much like I have always felt those rare times I am in his flat (which is why I avoid it). I remember him saying about a year ago "I can't find ANYTHING in this house !!!" as he madly rummaged through the drawers for a screwdriver. He doesn't rummage anymore. He asks, and when he does I sense the sadness in his voice.
He had the children yesterday and he brought them around in the afternoon (as he always does when he has them). He started sorting through the garage - we have hired a skip as he had done a lot of work in the garden during lock down. That's what he does now. He brings the children round and then finds something to do outside while they visit. When there is nothing to do, he waits on the stairs or in the den. The most conversation we will have will consist of "Hello" and "Goodbye". Like I said, he doesn't fit anymore. It reminds me of when on rare occasions I pick up the children from his flat and stand by the door or sit on the edge of the sofa. I didn't belong there. Now he doesn't belong here.
With each passing day I feel less and less connected to the house. When we first moved here I invested heavily in it. It was twice as large as our previous home, so, up until he moved out, I spent all my spare money and my time filling up the space. That's not to say he didn't contribute. He painted walls, he tidied gardens, he cut back trees. He started to detach from the 'house' about 6 months before BD. He maintained the house, but looking back, he stopped seeing a future here. Instead, he spent his money buying new clothes, an expensive car and going away on holidays with his mates (he had 2 x week long stag do's and a week long catch up with his mate who lives overseas). I suspect I resented him for this at the time, and that probably came through in my interactions with him.
Even after he moved out I continued to invest. Maybe not to the extent that I did before he moved out, but I redid the children's bedrooms (dismantled old furniture, did all the painting and put together the new furniture - he said what's the point, and sat on the sofa watching me) and I bought little things to put around the house to replace where his photos had been. I paid for the garden to be done (decking) and bought new garden furniture. In my head, the children and I still had to live here so, even though he was gone, I still wanted it nice for the children. But, somehow, in the last six months, my mindset has changed. I don't want to invest in it anymore. It feels more like I'm renting now. So I maintain the house, as opposed to 'live in a home'.
I guess he feels this. Each day I get rid of more stuff. I talk about getting the outside cleaned professionally and little bits of work that needs doing. Not in a horrible "these are the consequences of your actions" kind of way, but more matter of fact.
Anyway, that was a long response to the 'triggering' nature of the house. My lack of perceived emotion about it all really doesn't help. The few times we have had a non-general conversation he will bring up that I am "emote". After two and a half years, I don't know what he expects to see. We are getting a D, we are selling the house. Those are the facts - even though he only ever bring these things up in a burst of anger followed by storming out. He still likes to throw bombs. And then gets p!ssed when they don't explode.
Yes, D13. Slow and steady. I imagine if I'd maintained that course during the months post BD I would be in a different place. Too late now. But I have a chance with D13.
Yes, the house is a trigger. More so now that selling it is a real and tangible thing. He glances around when he enters, the ever critical eye. But he doesn't fit here anymore. He looks out of place. Not a part of this world. Much like I have always felt those rare times I am in his flat (which is why I avoid it). I remember him saying about a year ago "I can't find ANYTHING in this house !!!" as he madly rummaged through the drawers for a screwdriver. He doesn't rummage anymore. He asks, and when he does I sense the sadness in his voice.
He had the children yesterday and he brought them around in the afternoon (as he always does when he has them). He started sorting through the garage - we have hired a skip as he had done a lot of work in the garden during lock down. That's what he does now. He brings the children round and then finds something to do outside while they visit. When there is nothing to do, he waits on the stairs or in the den. The most conversation we will have will consist of "Hello" and "Goodbye". Like I said, he doesn't fit anymore. It reminds me of when on rare occasions I pick up the children from his flat and stand by the door or sit on the edge of the sofa. I didn't belong there. Now he doesn't belong here.
With each passing day I feel less and less connected to the house. When we first moved here I invested heavily in it. It was twice as large as our previous home, so, up until he moved out, I spent all my spare money and my time filling up the space. That's not to say he didn't contribute. He painted walls, he tidied gardens, he cut back trees. He started to detach from the 'house' about 6 months before BD. He maintained the house, but looking back, he stopped seeing a future here. Instead, he spent his money buying new clothes, an expensive car and going away on holidays with his mates (he had 2 x week long stag do's and a week long catch up with his mate who lives overseas). I suspect I resented him for this at the time, and that probably came through in my interactions with him.
Even after he moved out I continued to invest. Maybe not to the extent that I did before he moved out, but I redid the children's bedrooms (dismantled old furniture, did all the painting and put together the new furniture - he said what's the point, and sat on the sofa watching me) and I bought little things to put around the house to replace where his photos had been. I paid for the garden to be done (decking) and bought new garden furniture. In my head, the children and I still had to live here so, even though he was gone, I still wanted it nice for the children. But, somehow, in the last six months, my mindset has changed. I don't want to invest in it anymore. It feels more like I'm renting now. So I maintain the house, as opposed to 'live in a home'.
I guess he feels this. Each day I get rid of more stuff. I talk about getting the outside cleaned professionally and little bits of work that needs doing. Not in a horrible "these are the consequences of your actions" kind of way, but more matter of fact.
Anyway, that was a long response to the 'triggering' nature of the house. My lack of perceived emotion about it all really doesn't help. The few times we have had a non-general conversation he will bring up that I am "emote". After two and a half years, I don't know what he expects to see. We are getting a D, we are selling the house. Those are the facts - even though he only ever bring these things up in a burst of anger followed by storming out. He still likes to throw bombs. And then gets p!ssed when they don't explode.
Yes, D13. Slow and steady. I imagine if I'd maintained that course during the months post BD I would be in a different place. Too late now. But I have a chance with D13.
Re: Standing vs standing still - 07/03/20 04:54 PM
You sound in an OK place, FS. Acceptance is hard won but worth it. Saying goodbye to old places and husbands is sad but it will make space in your life for new places, people and adventures. I look forward to hearing you looking forward!!
Re: Standing vs standing still - 07/03/20 06:38 PM
Thanks Dilly - sometimes I think I've got to acceptance, and sometimes I worry that I never will ...
We were messaging earlier regarding drop offs for the kids and he closed by saying "Also - further to our conversation a few weeks ago I told the children on the same day that I am seeing someone. I am going to introduce the girls to her briefly tomorrow. I thought you should know in case the girls say something to you". A stock response from me "No problem. Appreciate you letting me know".
I don't know how I feel about this. I go back to the I am not upset that he has met someone. I am upset that he has met someone and I have not. It is that sense of being alone I guess. He will be with her tonight (he has arranged for the girls to stay with his mum) and I will be on my own. So, perhaps I have not reached acceptance. I do think I have gotten to understanding. He was lonely. He has been lonely for a long time (thus the online dating and engaging in inappropriate relationships which were all about feeding his ego).
He met someone soon before lockdown (I think) and the covid thing brought them closer together and now that we're coming out of it he has to make a decision one way or another because real life will resume and he won't be able to keep a relationship under wraps the way he could keep casual dating under wraps.
I understand. I accept. But understanding and acceptance keeps the anger and the unhealthy outward behaviour at bay but it doesn't help with the feelings of loneliness or sadness. It has been so long since I have felt a real human connection and I know that that is on me and not on him.
It is worrying that he told the kids weeks ago and neither has mentioned it to me. They've been bottling it up - either from a desire not to hurt me, or because they have been processing it themselves. It worries me that they do not feel they can tell me. It must be such a burden for them. Note: I am not blaming him for putting that burden on them. He did what he thought was right. He would have (I hoped) shared the information gently. He would have (I hope) given them the option to meet her or not. Actually, I don't know if he gave them the option. Without asking them I will never know. I cannot ask him because he will rage at my asking the question.
I wish DejaVu6 was still around as she had some insight into children.
We were messaging earlier regarding drop offs for the kids and he closed by saying "Also - further to our conversation a few weeks ago I told the children on the same day that I am seeing someone. I am going to introduce the girls to her briefly tomorrow. I thought you should know in case the girls say something to you". A stock response from me "No problem. Appreciate you letting me know".
I don't know how I feel about this. I go back to the I am not upset that he has met someone. I am upset that he has met someone and I have not. It is that sense of being alone I guess. He will be with her tonight (he has arranged for the girls to stay with his mum) and I will be on my own. So, perhaps I have not reached acceptance. I do think I have gotten to understanding. He was lonely. He has been lonely for a long time (thus the online dating and engaging in inappropriate relationships which were all about feeding his ego).
He met someone soon before lockdown (I think) and the covid thing brought them closer together and now that we're coming out of it he has to make a decision one way or another because real life will resume and he won't be able to keep a relationship under wraps the way he could keep casual dating under wraps.
I understand. I accept. But understanding and acceptance keeps the anger and the unhealthy outward behaviour at bay but it doesn't help with the feelings of loneliness or sadness. It has been so long since I have felt a real human connection and I know that that is on me and not on him.
It is worrying that he told the kids weeks ago and neither has mentioned it to me. They've been bottling it up - either from a desire not to hurt me, or because they have been processing it themselves. It worries me that they do not feel they can tell me. It must be such a burden for them. Note: I am not blaming him for putting that burden on them. He did what he thought was right. He would have (I hoped) shared the information gently. He would have (I hope) given them the option to meet her or not. Actually, I don't know if he gave them the option. Without asking them I will never know. I cannot ask him because he will rage at my asking the question.
I wish DejaVu6 was still around as she had some insight into children.
Re: Standing vs standing still - 07/07/20 10:15 PM
"I don't know how I feel about this" is the strangest of all feelings.
Your post is thoughtful FS, and tbh I sense more of a generalized malaise than one specifically about him. A Covid related malaise maybe we are all feeling.
You are doing well with your Ds. If you can stand it, I think it's okay to say to them first, "Did you meet Daddy's new friend the other day? I don't have any questions, but I want you to know it's not a secret because we don't have secrets in our family. We all do our best to be honest and loving."
I'm sorry I haven't been here. I've lurked a bit. I'm in a cocoon state. Something is shifting, and I don't know what, so I'm quiet. It doesn't mean I don't care because I do. Thinking of you.
Your post is thoughtful FS, and tbh I sense more of a generalized malaise than one specifically about him. A Covid related malaise maybe we are all feeling.
You are doing well with your Ds. If you can stand it, I think it's okay to say to them first, "Did you meet Daddy's new friend the other day? I don't have any questions, but I want you to know it's not a secret because we don't have secrets in our family. We all do our best to be honest and loving."
I'm sorry I haven't been here. I've lurked a bit. I'm in a cocoon state. Something is shifting, and I don't know what, so I'm quiet. It doesn't mean I don't care because I do. Thinking of you.
Re: Standing vs standing still - 07/09/20 08:17 PM
Yail
I wrote the below on your thread. I thought I'd copy it here in case you miss it.
I miss your cooking posts. They always remind me that it is not all about our H/Ws, sometimes it is about the simple pleasures that are the smell of freshly made bread, a warm blanket, and a cup of coffee (or gin).
I hope you are well my friend.
Yes, the general malaise as opposed to focused malaise. Lockdown I think, has been particular hard on those of us who are on our own. I see and hear my kids and my ex continue to engage (initially via facetime and now, that lockdown is easing, face to face) with his wider family, I see the excitement on their faces when they discuss what the wider family is doing, and it only compounds my feeling of being alone.
They are going to his mums tomorrow evening for my niece's birthday (7). It is a harry potter themed camp out and D13 has been excitedly planning biscuits and cakes and both my girls have both been making hand made harry potter cards for her. I feign excitement as D10 shows me the things she's made and all the fun things they are planning they are planning to do, but I am not a part of it, not a part of the family that I had replaced my own with (I am estranged through combination of distance and choice) for so many years. I wonder, in my quieter moments, if his new girlfriend will be there. I do not think so, but I do not know. The girls have not told me yet that they met her. I have decided to let them process, and tell me, should they wish to do so, in their own time.
Things are moving along at a glacial pace. We have had some boundary setting moments, which always ends with him storming off in a huff, but he cools of, and after, over message, generally agrees with the boundary. The first was his declaration that I had to give him first option when it came to babysitting the children and he had to approve all babysitters (the babysitter in question was his mum, and I had asked her to watch the children over night because I needed to go to work early the next day). I responded fine, but it worked both ways, he would need to inform me when his mum watched the children for him also. He huffed ("She's MY mum!!!") and then stormed off. He later sent me a text saying "Ok, I'll let you know when I have asked mum to watch the girls"). The other was his habit of arriving late for pick ups or dropping the children late ("but it's not like YOUR going anywhere !!!", and then later "OK, I will message you when I am running late"). No discussion about the house, the separation or the girlfriend.
I have officially 'ghosted' the man I went on a date with two weeks ago. I know it's bad form, but I do not have the heart to tell him there was no spark. I have agreed to meet someone on Saturday (coffee and stroll in the park). I am not too optimistic, but I thought it is only a walk in the park.
On other fronts, I reached out to my childhood best friend. I haven't spoken to her in 13 years. Distance and children led to a natural drifting apart. We moved back into the same rhythm as we did when we were kids - some difficult topics (my separation, her affair, her discovering that someone close to us had been sexually abused all her childhood) to simple topics (childhood boyfriends and general gossip) . It was lovely.
I also reached out to my mother - there was some awkwardness, but otherwise it was pleasant. It was obvious she missed me an wants to stay in my life. I can't remember how much of my childhood I shared here, but it was tough and I left it more or less behind when I moved countries. I guess I need to forgive her for her part in making it tough. She was doing the best she could.
Anyway, that's my update.
I hope everyone is well.
I wrote the below on your thread. I thought I'd copy it here in case you miss it.
I miss your cooking posts. They always remind me that it is not all about our H/Ws, sometimes it is about the simple pleasures that are the smell of freshly made bread, a warm blanket, and a cup of coffee (or gin).
I hope you are well my friend.
Yes, the general malaise as opposed to focused malaise. Lockdown I think, has been particular hard on those of us who are on our own. I see and hear my kids and my ex continue to engage (initially via facetime and now, that lockdown is easing, face to face) with his wider family, I see the excitement on their faces when they discuss what the wider family is doing, and it only compounds my feeling of being alone.
They are going to his mums tomorrow evening for my niece's birthday (7). It is a harry potter themed camp out and D13 has been excitedly planning biscuits and cakes and both my girls have both been making hand made harry potter cards for her. I feign excitement as D10 shows me the things she's made and all the fun things they are planning they are planning to do, but I am not a part of it, not a part of the family that I had replaced my own with (I am estranged through combination of distance and choice) for so many years. I wonder, in my quieter moments, if his new girlfriend will be there. I do not think so, but I do not know. The girls have not told me yet that they met her. I have decided to let them process, and tell me, should they wish to do so, in their own time.
Things are moving along at a glacial pace. We have had some boundary setting moments, which always ends with him storming off in a huff, but he cools of, and after, over message, generally agrees with the boundary. The first was his declaration that I had to give him first option when it came to babysitting the children and he had to approve all babysitters (the babysitter in question was his mum, and I had asked her to watch the children over night because I needed to go to work early the next day). I responded fine, but it worked both ways, he would need to inform me when his mum watched the children for him also. He huffed ("She's MY mum!!!") and then stormed off. He later sent me a text saying "Ok, I'll let you know when I have asked mum to watch the girls"). The other was his habit of arriving late for pick ups or dropping the children late ("but it's not like YOUR going anywhere !!!", and then later "OK, I will message you when I am running late"). No discussion about the house, the separation or the girlfriend.
I have officially 'ghosted' the man I went on a date with two weeks ago. I know it's bad form, but I do not have the heart to tell him there was no spark. I have agreed to meet someone on Saturday (coffee and stroll in the park). I am not too optimistic, but I thought it is only a walk in the park.
On other fronts, I reached out to my childhood best friend. I haven't spoken to her in 13 years. Distance and children led to a natural drifting apart. We moved back into the same rhythm as we did when we were kids - some difficult topics (my separation, her affair, her discovering that someone close to us had been sexually abused all her childhood) to simple topics (childhood boyfriends and general gossip) . It was lovely.
I also reached out to my mother - there was some awkwardness, but otherwise it was pleasant. It was obvious she missed me an wants to stay in my life. I can't remember how much of my childhood I shared here, but it was tough and I left it more or less behind when I moved countries. I guess I need to forgive her for her part in making it tough. She was doing the best she could.
Anyway, that's my update.
I hope everyone is well.
Re: Standing vs standing still - 07/11/20 02:36 PM
Hi FS. I am still here just not as often. I am glad to see you are too.
Re: your kids. They will take their cues from you. They are watching you. My advice...I wouldn’t wait for them to tell you about the new girlfriend. My sense is that if they haven’t yet, it’s because they are trying to protect you. I would just identify the elephant in the room and tell them Daddy told you he is introducing them to his new friend and that you are completely fine with it (even if you aren’t) and there is no need for them to ever hide anything from you. Tell them that you want them to be okay and that they never have to worry about your feelings as it is your job, as their mom, to worry about theirs. Then plaster a smile on your face and let them see you are okay. This will take a big burden off of their shoulders.
There is a lot of change happening for them and for you. Show them that the best way to deal with change is to embrace it and focus on the prospect of new adventures and new people being added to your lives. It is all about attitude and teaching them by example (something you are great at, I know). Having said that, if they see you looking sad and they comment on it, don’t deny it. Just tell them it is normal to feel sad sometimes and that it enables us to really appreciate the good times when they happen. Life is 5% what happens to you and 95% what you do about it. Lots of opportunity for life lessons here. The most important thing is that you keep the lines of communication open as their natural inclination will be to protect you. I don’t know your kids but the other thing that could happen is that they meet her and like her and then feel guilty for liking her. So...I would also tell them it is okay if they like her. This reduces any conflicted feelings they might have.
I can appreciate the challenge with having his mom as your main child care option seeing as how my XMIL is mine. It is difficult sometimes. XH and I have finally, I think, established that when he needs her to look after the kids, he lets me know since this means they will inevitably be wandering upstairs to my part of the house and I may or may not be there. So far so good but it could definitely become a bone of contention if we let it.
Anyway...just wanted to drop by and let you know I haven’t disappeared. Just trying to navigate the online dating world after divorce. It would be nice if I was about 10 years younger but what can you do? At least I look it...lol. Take care and don’t be a stranger!! (((HUGS)))
Re: your kids. They will take their cues from you. They are watching you. My advice...I wouldn’t wait for them to tell you about the new girlfriend. My sense is that if they haven’t yet, it’s because they are trying to protect you. I would just identify the elephant in the room and tell them Daddy told you he is introducing them to his new friend and that you are completely fine with it (even if you aren’t) and there is no need for them to ever hide anything from you. Tell them that you want them to be okay and that they never have to worry about your feelings as it is your job, as their mom, to worry about theirs. Then plaster a smile on your face and let them see you are okay. This will take a big burden off of their shoulders.
There is a lot of change happening for them and for you. Show them that the best way to deal with change is to embrace it and focus on the prospect of new adventures and new people being added to your lives. It is all about attitude and teaching them by example (something you are great at, I know). Having said that, if they see you looking sad and they comment on it, don’t deny it. Just tell them it is normal to feel sad sometimes and that it enables us to really appreciate the good times when they happen. Life is 5% what happens to you and 95% what you do about it. Lots of opportunity for life lessons here. The most important thing is that you keep the lines of communication open as their natural inclination will be to protect you. I don’t know your kids but the other thing that could happen is that they meet her and like her and then feel guilty for liking her. So...I would also tell them it is okay if they like her. This reduces any conflicted feelings they might have.
I can appreciate the challenge with having his mom as your main child care option seeing as how my XMIL is mine. It is difficult sometimes. XH and I have finally, I think, established that when he needs her to look after the kids, he lets me know since this means they will inevitably be wandering upstairs to my part of the house and I may or may not be there. So far so good but it could definitely become a bone of contention if we let it.
Anyway...just wanted to drop by and let you know I haven’t disappeared. Just trying to navigate the online dating world after divorce. It would be nice if I was about 10 years younger but what can you do? At least I look it...lol. Take care and don’t be a stranger!! (((HUGS)))
Re: Standing vs standing still - 07/12/20 02:47 AM
Originally Posted by FlySolo
The first was his declaration that I had to give him first option when it came to babysitting the children and he had to approve all babysitters (the babysitter in question was his mum, and I had asked her to watch the children over night because I needed to go to work early the next day). I responded fine, but it worked both ways, he would need to inform me when his mum watched the children for him also. He huffed ("She's MY mum!!!") and then stormed off.
OMG FS, this cracked me up big time. This was hilarious and I laughed out loud reading it. I hope you are able to get enough distance to see how ridiculous this kind of thing is too... he obviously knows it also (and so reverses course later on). Do you think he has the capacity to be embarrassed? or just thinks you set him up or some other way to cast blame?
Originally Posted by FlySolo
On other fronts, I reached out to my childhood best friend. I haven't spoken to her in 13 years. Distance and children led to a natural drifting apart. We moved back into the same rhythm as we did when we were kids - some difficult topics (my separation, her affair, her discovering that someone close to us had been sexually abused all her childhood) to simple topics (childhood boyfriends and general gossip) . It was lovely.
I also reached out to my mother - there was some awkwardness, but otherwise it was pleasant. It was obvious she missed me an wants to stay in my life. I can't remember how much of my childhood I shared here, but it was tough and I left it more or less behind when I moved countries. I guess I need to forgive her for her part in making it tough. She was doing the best she could.
I also reached out to my mother - there was some awkwardness, but otherwise it was pleasant. It was obvious she missed me an wants to stay in my life. I can't remember how much of my childhood I shared here, but it was tough and I left it more or less behind when I moved countries. I guess I need to forgive her for her part in making it tough. She was doing the best she could.
I think this is great-- difficult I'm sure, but good to focus on some of the other important relationships in your life.
I also agree with DejaVu that if you can open the conversation with your daughters, that would be a good thing. I was reading a book about children in divorce and it sounded like what DejaVu describes is not unusual-- the children wanting to protect their parent (especially the mom when the dad was the one to MO), feeling guilty for knowing, feeling guilty for liking her, not wanting to see their mom sad or hurt. I think if you can open that conversation and make sure they know they can share ANYTHING with you, that might really help them out. Otherwise, the burden remains on them.
Re: Standing vs standing still - 07/16/20 10:52 AM
Hey FS, you sound very thoughtful. Do you think IC might be helpful for a little while? Just a suggestion You seem like you are addressing some of your historic issues anyway. I like the way you have reached out to your family and friend, your post about your H's family and your feelings of loss about them makes it obvious how much you feel that lack in your life. Which is healthy to address. I have a lot in common with you here I think. All my family live a very long way away. I don't contact them much. My mum drives me crazy if I have to see her too much! I probably have a few issues from childhood stuff with her, which is absolutely normal! But I just don't feel that close to my family, a big time difference makes that difficult even with technology. I have not yet told my family about H leaving, and I look forward to having that out in the open because it's a big secret to have kept for so long and probably has led to me not contacting them as often as I should have. My best childhood friend I have also hardly contacted, it's partly the time difference but also because I have had so much to tell her it's difficult knowing where to start. But that's on my to do list. I'm glad you contacted your friend again, that is so great to just pick up where you left off. True friendship is like that
Do you think you might try to initiate more new friendships? I know you're probably WAH since lockdown which makes seeing colleagues etc tricky. I've joined a bunch of meetups and met new people that way. Sometimes you just need extra social contact in your life. Like me I bet your main friends are mums who are busy weekends and evenings when you'd like to do stuff because your kids are with their dad. Anyway, just a suggestion, I know for me meeting new people has been a great way to feel less lonely. Take care of yourself xx
You seem like you are addressing some of your historic issues anyway. I like the way you have reached out to your family and friend, your post about your H's family and your feelings of loss about them makes it obvious how much you feel that lack in your life. Which is healthy to address. I have a lot in common with you here I think. All my family live a very long way away. I don't contact them much. My mum drives me crazy if I have to see her too much! I probably have a few issues from childhood stuff with her, which is absolutely normal! But I just don't feel that close to my family, a big time difference makes that difficult even with technology. I have not yet told my family about H leaving, and I look forward to having that out in the open because it's a big secret to have kept for so long and probably has led to me not contacting them as often as I should have. My best childhood friend I have also hardly contacted, it's partly the time difference but also because I have had so much to tell her it's difficult knowing where to start. But that's on my to do list. I'm glad you contacted your friend again, that is so great to just pick up where you left off. True friendship is like that Do you think you might try to initiate more new friendships? I know you're probably WAH since lockdown which makes seeing colleagues etc tricky. I've joined a bunch of meetups and met new people that way. Sometimes you just need extra social contact in your life. Like me I bet your main friends are mums who are busy weekends and evenings when you'd like to do stuff because your kids are with their dad. Anyway, just a suggestion, I know for me meeting new people has been a great way to feel less lonely. Take care of yourself xx
Re: Standing vs standing still - 07/17/20 12:55 AM
FS,
I think it's wonderful that you have reached out to your childhood friend and mum. I see that as a sign that things are unlocking within you, and you are making decisions for you and you alone again.
It's not that we intentionally make decisions for our spouse. But habits form, I get it. And then a great mental shift happens (or a slow mental shift happens) and there is a newfound need to connect to something old. I too have connected with my college roommate recently. It feels nice. I hope you continue these relationships.
Perhaps it's finding someone who knows us from our past - someone who knows us deep down without an introduction - and just being simple with them. A nice convo, a smile. It means a lot and honestly I think it does a lot with regards to loneliness. You don't have to be in constant contact but you start to feel there is someone there for you - even if they're in the wings.
Do you share where you country of origin is, or do you keep that private off the boards? For much of our time here I had imagined you had a London accent, but that must not be the case No problem if you choose to not share
If you could travel anywhere next: where would it be, and for what type of travel? Can we travel daydream for a bit? Tell me about the type of trip you'd like to take - SOLO - no kiddos :-D What would you experience?
I think it's wonderful that you have reached out to your childhood friend and mum. I see that as a sign that things are unlocking within you, and you are making decisions for you and you alone again.
It's not that we intentionally make decisions for our spouse. But habits form, I get it. And then a great mental shift happens (or a slow mental shift happens) and there is a newfound need to connect to something old. I too have connected with my college roommate recently. It feels nice. I hope you continue these relationships.
Perhaps it's finding someone who knows us from our past - someone who knows us deep down without an introduction - and just being simple with them. A nice convo, a smile. It means a lot and honestly I think it does a lot with regards to loneliness. You don't have to be in constant contact but you start to feel there is someone there for you - even if they're in the wings.
Do you share where you country of origin is, or do you keep that private off the boards? For much of our time here I had imagined you had a London accent, but that must not be the case
No problem if you choose to not share If you could travel anywhere next: where would it be, and for what type of travel? Can we travel daydream for a bit? Tell me about the type of trip you'd like to take - SOLO - no kiddos :-D What would you experience?
Re: Standing vs standing still - 07/17/20 04:27 PM
May - Yes - he can be thoroughly ridiculous. It doesn't throw me like it use to. He hears something he doesn't like and then reacts with the most outrageous things. I think he believes what he says when he says it. To him, it makes ABSOLUTE sense that he can get his mum to babysit and not inform me and that when I try and do the same thing, it is somehow "wrong". He frames things in his head so they make sense to him. After wards, maybe he thinks about it. I don't know. I suspect his ego still wouldn't let him see how controlling and manipulative he is being. It's the same with the house. He won't tell me when he is coming over here 'because' it is his house. He back tracked this time because I called him out on it. He didn't apologies - just a simple "I will let you know when they are staying with MY mum" (capitals added by me). He says that he leaves them with his mum because "they want to stay with her" (true) and nothing to do with him wanting to go out (not true). Anyway, it doesn't throw me anymore.
Yes, it was good to speak to mum. There is a lot of work to be done there. She is scared to contact me so I will reach out this weekend. She did message me over the week to tell me my grandmother had did. I did not know her well and had only really met her a handful of times. I know that she was estranged from my mum for many many years and it is only recently that they got back in touch. I cried a little. Not for my grandmother, who I barely knew, but for my mum, and also because, and this one is weird, it is one less person out there that loves me (and I know how self centered that sounds).
I spoke to D10 about the GF. I just said "I know about her and I am OK with it. If there is anything you want to talk about then you can. I don't want you to feel you have to hide anything from me". She smiled and said "I know" and then skipped off to play with her toys. I have not had a conversation with D13 though. I just don't know how to broach it. I don't think we are there yet.
I did mention to both of them that my grandmother had did. I told D10 before she went to sleep and she replied "Oh, that's sad" and gave me a hug. I told D13 in the morning (soon after I heard), said "Oh" and then looked away. I think it was all too much for me and I said I needed to go and lie down for a bit. She just kept her head down.
She did tell her dad, and he said (2 days later) "D13 told me about your grandmother. I'm sorry". I just said "I'm fine" and then kept folding clothes. He said "well, if you're going to be like that, I won't say anything next time", to which I replied "Ok". I know the reaction was wrong. But all I could think was how he reacted when my father died (which was a shrug o the shoulders) and I didn't want to break down in front of him.
Dilly - I had a regression hypnosis session today (via skype) and we addressed some of my abandonment issues. Not him leaving me (i don't think I felt abondoned), but the feeling I had the first time he took the kids away on holidays without me. I had forgotten how much that hurt. I sat on the steps in our hall whilst he put their suitcases in the car. He looked at me and said something about how miserable I looked "you don't get excited about anything". So I put on a on a smile, hugged the girls, said have a "great time" and waved them goodbye as they drove off. And then, I went upstairs, curled myself into the fetal position, and cried. Each time has been easier. But the pain is still there. I need to deal with that.
Strangely, I did not tell my mum I am separated. I spoke to her about the girls, about how they are doing at school, about the sports they play etc. But I did not mention the separation or D13 not speaking to me. Definitely still have some walls up. Maybe time and forcing myself to speak to her will bring them down.
Yes, my main friends (locally) are mums. Up until the break up these friendships were at best school gate friendships. Superficial conversations about holidays we or they were going to/had been on and how the children were getting on. Some have become proper friends since - a lot of women are in similar boats to me. Long nights with wine laughing or crying on each others shoulders. But you are right, even with these women, it is hard to find time for each other. Children, lives, exes (and for some, new boyfriends) make it difficult. I don't want to burden them and they don't want to burden me. Luckily I seem to be quite a 'catch' on the dating app I am on. So I am engaged in a lot of random conversations. It's nice but tbh, a little tedious and, for some reason, after a few messages exchanged, they always want to start talking about sex (which, not being a prude, I think should be discussed after you've actually had sex), or they want to meet straightaway, and when you meet them, they just seem 'desperate' for a partner. I don't know, maybe I'm doing it wrong.
Yail - I have a week in Croatia (the Dalmation coast) booked on my own and a week in Ibiza with the girls. I booked the Croatian one the other day because I realised that 2 weeks without my kids (they are going away for a week with him and then a week with my inlaws) was too long to spend locked down on my own.
Yes, it was good to speak to mum. There is a lot of work to be done there. She is scared to contact me so I will reach out this weekend. She did message me over the week to tell me my grandmother had did. I did not know her well and had only really met her a handful of times. I know that she was estranged from my mum for many many years and it is only recently that they got back in touch. I cried a little. Not for my grandmother, who I barely knew, but for my mum, and also because, and this one is weird, it is one less person out there that loves me (and I know how self centered that sounds).
I spoke to D10 about the GF. I just said "I know about her and I am OK with it. If there is anything you want to talk about then you can. I don't want you to feel you have to hide anything from me". She smiled and said "I know" and then skipped off to play with her toys. I have not had a conversation with D13 though. I just don't know how to broach it. I don't think we are there yet.
I did mention to both of them that my grandmother had did. I told D10 before she went to sleep and she replied "Oh, that's sad" and gave me a hug. I told D13 in the morning (soon after I heard), said "Oh" and then looked away. I think it was all too much for me and I said I needed to go and lie down for a bit. She just kept her head down.
She did tell her dad, and he said (2 days later) "D13 told me about your grandmother. I'm sorry". I just said "I'm fine" and then kept folding clothes. He said "well, if you're going to be like that, I won't say anything next time", to which I replied "Ok". I know the reaction was wrong. But all I could think was how he reacted when my father died (which was a shrug o the shoulders) and I didn't want to break down in front of him.
Dilly - I had a regression hypnosis session today (via skype) and we addressed some of my abandonment issues. Not him leaving me (i don't think I felt abondoned), but the feeling I had the first time he took the kids away on holidays without me. I had forgotten how much that hurt. I sat on the steps in our hall whilst he put their suitcases in the car. He looked at me and said something about how miserable I looked "you don't get excited about anything". So I put on a on a smile, hugged the girls, said have a "great time" and waved them goodbye as they drove off. And then, I went upstairs, curled myself into the fetal position, and cried. Each time has been easier. But the pain is still there. I need to deal with that.
Strangely, I did not tell my mum I am separated. I spoke to her about the girls, about how they are doing at school, about the sports they play etc. But I did not mention the separation or D13 not speaking to me. Definitely still have some walls up. Maybe time and forcing myself to speak to her will bring them down.
Yes, my main friends (locally) are mums. Up until the break up these friendships were at best school gate friendships. Superficial conversations about holidays we or they were going to/had been on and how the children were getting on. Some have become proper friends since - a lot of women are in similar boats to me. Long nights with wine laughing or crying on each others shoulders. But you are right, even with these women, it is hard to find time for each other. Children, lives, exes (and for some, new boyfriends) make it difficult. I don't want to burden them and they don't want to burden me. Luckily I seem to be quite a 'catch' on the dating app I am on. So I am engaged in a lot of random conversations. It's nice but tbh, a little tedious and, for some reason, after a few messages exchanged, they always want to start talking about sex (which, not being a prude, I think should be discussed after you've actually had sex), or they want to meet straightaway, and when you meet them, they just seem 'desperate' for a partner. I don't know, maybe I'm doing it wrong.
Yail - I have a week in Croatia (the Dalmation coast) booked on my own and a week in Ibiza with the girls. I booked the Croatian one the other day because I realised that 2 weeks without my kids (they are going away for a week with him and then a week with my inlaws) was too long to spend locked down on my own.
Re: Standing vs standing still - 07/18/20 08:59 AM
Quote
She did tell her dad, and he said (2 days later) "D13 told me about your grandmother. I'm sorry". I just said "I'm fine" and then kept folding clothes. He said "well, if you're going to be like that, I won't say anything next time", to which I replied "Ok". I know the reaction was wrong. But all I could think was how he reacted when my father died (which was a shrug o the shoulders) and I didn't want to break down in front of him.
Wow. It really is all about him, isn't it?
My IC (also my H's IC) said H is "ego-driven" and I'm wondering if that can describe your H as well?
I'm glad you booked the week in Croatia. When do you leave? (Or for Ibiza???)
Re: Standing vs standing still - 07/20/20 11:15 AM
Hi May
I googled ego driven the other day and yes, that fits him fairly well. I have at times thought he might be a narcissist (mainly in the months around BD when he was mean) but I feel now that that was too harsh. He is not a bad person. He did not enter into our relationship with poor intentions. In fact, he adored me. He was just (and has always) been selfish. It's just that for 80% of our marriage, what he wanted was to build the best life possible for our family - the fancy job, the big house, the picket white fence, the beautiful and accomplished wife and the perfect children. For the last 20% he wanted to be on his own. Not single, just not a family man. No responsibilities, no obligations. He bought things for him. He went on holidays with his friends. He spent money on him. He wanted to go out and drink with his friends. That just didn't gel with the family life. Unfortunately, I think that he found out too late that that was a fantasy. That his friends were also family men and didn't want to spend their nights hanging out in bars and that spending all day on his own (while we were here) was just plain lonely. I don't think it took him that long tbh. I think he was probably on dating sites within 4-6 months of moving out.
On the 'it's all about him' quote. The other day I sent him a message saying that D10 would be staying over a friends house. This was my night to have them, but as he had said he wanted to know if/when the girls were staying with anyone else, I thought I'd let him know. His response "Thanks. I'm flying tomorrow anyway". It made me laugh. Not, "Thanks for letting me know" or "Great. I'm sure she'll have a great time", but "I'm flying anyway". All about him and the impact on him.
Croatia mid August, and then Ibizia late August. I cannot wait.
Yail - I didn't answer your question. I am half Filipino and I grew up in Australia. I was watching an african american comedian the other day whose wife is Filipino and he said "and our kids look Puertorican" which pretty much describes me. Accent wise I'd say it's pretty Londonish with an slight aussie twang.
I googled ego driven the other day and yes, that fits him fairly well. I have at times thought he might be a narcissist (mainly in the months around BD when he was mean) but I feel now that that was too harsh. He is not a bad person. He did not enter into our relationship with poor intentions. In fact, he adored me. He was just (and has always) been selfish. It's just that for 80% of our marriage, what he wanted was to build the best life possible for our family - the fancy job, the big house, the picket white fence, the beautiful and accomplished wife and the perfect children. For the last 20% he wanted to be on his own. Not single, just not a family man. No responsibilities, no obligations. He bought things for him. He went on holidays with his friends. He spent money on him. He wanted to go out and drink with his friends. That just didn't gel with the family life. Unfortunately, I think that he found out too late that that was a fantasy. That his friends were also family men and didn't want to spend their nights hanging out in bars and that spending all day on his own (while we were here) was just plain lonely. I don't think it took him that long tbh. I think he was probably on dating sites within 4-6 months of moving out.
On the 'it's all about him' quote. The other day I sent him a message saying that D10 would be staying over a friends house. This was my night to have them, but as he had said he wanted to know if/when the girls were staying with anyone else, I thought I'd let him know. His response "Thanks. I'm flying tomorrow anyway". It made me laugh. Not, "Thanks for letting me know" or "Great. I'm sure she'll have a great time", but "I'm flying anyway". All about him and the impact on him.
Croatia mid August, and then Ibizia late August. I cannot wait.
Yail - I didn't answer your question. I am half Filipino and I grew up in Australia. I was watching an african american comedian the other day whose wife is Filipino and he said "and our kids look Puertorican" which pretty much describes me. Accent wise I'd say it's pretty Londonish with an slight aussie twang.
Re: Standing vs standing still - 07/20/20 12:06 PM
So FS: have you still not told your mum that you are separated? In that case we have even more in common than I thought, lol. Still not told anyone in my family. Though I will when we finally have the D conversation. Not sure what else I can tell my family, it will be a difficult conversation.
Your H sounds very much like mine in a lot of ways. Not wanting to be part of a family towards the end. Wanting independence. Then realising what he lost but not being able to go back on things maybe. Not willing to put the hard work in for reconciliation. And also the always being about him bit. That's what one of my best friends said 'it's always been all about him, hasn't it?' and that was true.
I really identify with the feelings of loss when H takes the kids away. Important to acknowledge it, move on, book something to keep yourself busy, maybe even enjoy the space and time to yourself. H is taking the kids away next week for about 10 days, I was looking forward to spending time with my new man but that is a bit rocky right now so who knows. I feel ok either way, and have the wherewithal to organise plenty of stuff to keep myself busy if I need to.
I don't think you're doing online dating wrong, it's just a matter of luck and a numbers game. Keep on going, have some fun and keep an open mind
Your H sounds very much like mine in a lot of ways. Not wanting to be part of a family towards the end. Wanting independence. Then realising what he lost but not being able to go back on things maybe. Not willing to put the hard work in for reconciliation. And also the always being about him bit. That's what one of my best friends said 'it's always been all about him, hasn't it?' and that was true.
I really identify with the feelings of loss when H takes the kids away. Important to acknowledge it, move on, book something to keep yourself busy, maybe even enjoy the space and time to yourself. H is taking the kids away next week for about 10 days, I was looking forward to spending time with my new man but that is a bit rocky right now so who knows. I feel ok either way, and have the wherewithal to organise plenty of stuff to keep myself busy if I need to.
I don't think you're doing online dating wrong, it's just a matter of luck and a numbers game. Keep on going, have some fun and keep an open mind
Re: Standing vs standing still - 07/20/20 01:38 PM
FS...I am so envious of your Croatian vacay!! I had a three-week trip to Croatia planned for September with my sister & BIL and another couple. Unfortunately, we’ve had to postpone it due to the CV19 requirement that we self-isolate for 14 days upon our return but, even more relevant, our friend who is coming with us is immunocompromised so can’t risk travelling while the virus is still out there circulating. I’m making the best of it though. I’m finally getting the damage repaired that happens when one carries large twins to term...hoping to be able to wear a bikini by the time we go...lol. Also...one silver lining that I’ve been telling myself is that maybe by the time we go, I will have a plus one and it will be six of us instead of five.
Glad you reached out to your mom. I get not wanting to tell her about the separation right away...especially if you haven’t been in close contact until now. Sorry to hear about your grandma. I didn’t know mine that well either but it was a blow when she passed. I know she loved me lots. I don’t think you were selfish when you wrote about the origin of your grief...just honest...and human.
RE: Dating apps. I don’t think you are doing it wrong. I just think you have to kiss a lot of frogs (or at least have coffee with them) before you find your prince. I have had a lot of first dates but am holding out for some kind of spark with someone that makes me want to have a second date. So far, that’s been pretty elusive but I spent last night talking with the latest candidate who I thought wasn’t that interested but confessed last night that he is really interested and figures I won’t like him because he likes me already. Hmmm...turns out that even the guys who seem the most self-assured, are hiding some insecurities we didn’t think they could have. I was pretty surprised when he told me that. Even if his pics are five years old, I am pretty darn sure I will be physically attracted to him and if our phone conversations are any indication, I am the most hopeful I have been so far about the prospects of a second date. Anyway...don’t get discouraged...I’m sure you will meet someone cool when you are supposed to. (((HUGS)))
Glad you reached out to your mom. I get not wanting to tell her about the separation right away...especially if you haven’t been in close contact until now. Sorry to hear about your grandma. I didn’t know mine that well either but it was a blow when she passed. I know she loved me lots. I don’t think you were selfish when you wrote about the origin of your grief...just honest...and human.
RE: Dating apps. I don’t think you are doing it wrong. I just think you have to kiss a lot of frogs (or at least have coffee with them) before you find your prince. I have had a lot of first dates but am holding out for some kind of spark with someone that makes me want to have a second date. So far, that’s been pretty elusive but I spent last night talking with the latest candidate who I thought wasn’t that interested but confessed last night that he is really interested and figures I won’t like him because he likes me already. Hmmm...turns out that even the guys who seem the most self-assured, are hiding some insecurities we didn’t think they could have. I was pretty surprised when he told me that. Even if his pics are five years old, I am pretty darn sure I will be physically attracted to him and if our phone conversations are any indication, I am the most hopeful I have been so far about the prospects of a second date. Anyway...don’t get discouraged...I’m sure you will meet someone cool when you are supposed to. (((HUGS)))
Re: Standing vs standing still - 07/20/20 08:04 PM
DV - how lovely it is to hear from you. And I can see you're doing great. You give me hope
Yes, I'm glad I reached out to mum too. I could feel the love in her voice. Her tentative I love you and I miss you. I will check in on her after I write you this note. She is not the woman she was. I suspect there are a lot of regrets there.
I went to Croatia last year remember. That was the adventure holiday with a travel group (about 15 of us) - we didn't stay in the same place more than once, hiking or exploring during the day followed by long drunken dinners at night. This time it is a sit in one place and maybe a glass of wine/beer with dinner. Did you see the 'travel buddy' posts between Yail and I. You can join our virtual travel buddy group. We can post each time we visit a new place and pretend that we three (and anyone else who wants to join) is there with us.
You and your 'candidates'. You make me laugh. I still find the whole thing a bit tedious but am giving it a (half hearted) try. I have something set up for next Saturday. Fingers crossed. I have drinks booked with the 'boy' (you remember the work flirtation - well that ended up becoming a genuine friendship) which I'm looking more forward to than the first date on Saturday. I think I am destined for a life where every male I know ends up in the 'friend' column.
On the H front. He came around today and I have to say, he is looking rather tubby these days. Though still tanned and gorgeous. Still an @rse though.
Yes, I'm glad I reached out to mum too. I could feel the love in her voice. Her tentative I love you and I miss you. I will check in on her after I write you this note. She is not the woman she was. I suspect there are a lot of regrets there.
I went to Croatia last year remember. That was the adventure holiday with a travel group (about 15 of us) - we didn't stay in the same place more than once, hiking or exploring during the day followed by long drunken dinners at night. This time it is a sit in one place and maybe a glass of wine/beer with dinner. Did you see the 'travel buddy' posts between Yail and I. You can join our virtual travel buddy group. We can post each time we visit a new place and pretend that we three (and anyone else who wants to join) is there with us.
You and your 'candidates'
. You make me laugh. I still find the whole thing a bit tedious but am giving it a (half hearted) try. I have something set up for next Saturday. Fingers crossed. I have drinks booked with the 'boy' (you remember the work flirtation - well that ended up becoming a genuine friendship) which I'm looking more forward to than the first date on Saturday. I think I am destined for a life where every male I know ends up in the 'friend' column. On the H front. He came around today and I have to say, he is looking rather tubby these days
. Though still tanned and gorgeous. Still an @rse though.
Re: Standing vs standing still - 07/21/20 04:04 AM
FS... I would LOVE to join your virtual travel group. I also have my heart set on Turkey at some point. The last student we hosted prior to moving was from Turkey so I have a standing invitation to stay with her family. I want to go for a hot air balloon ride over Cappadocia. My student says it is as magical as it looks. I do remember your trip to Croatia last year. I was living vicariously through you back then...lol
I do remember the boy. So glad it ended up being a friendship. I, too, sometimes feel that every date I go on will end up being a friend but it is just a feeling and I’m learning not to believe everything my subconscious wants to dream up. I reread what I wrote last on my thread and am preparing for the chorus of “don’t get ahead of yourself DV” and “don’t set yourself up for disappointment”. The thing is... I am well aware I do both of these things and I am totally okay with it because that is just who I am. I’m a glass half full person...I still believe in true love...I still think it can happen for me and the one thing that I KNOW is that I have been to hell and back and I am BETTER THAN EVER. So who cares!! If I set myself up for a hundred more heartbreaks I’m okay with it cause I know I will survive...lol. So I am okay with “I told you so’s” because I know one day it will be me saying it...lol. To you too my beautiful friend. I know good things are ahead for you as well. You just have to get through that last little bit of letting go. It’s coming...I know it is... and when you finally feel it 100%, it will be so freeing. I promise you!!!
Finally texted the guy I went out with last week and told him I am interested in being friends with him but not interested in him romantically and if he was okay with that, we should hang out. Turns out he is so we are going to get together later this week to look at Jupiter and Saturn through my daughter’s telescope. Hoping to catch the comet too. Anyway...I am happy to be making a new friend since most of mine are married or in LTR’s.
Looking forward to hearing about your date this weekend!!! (((HUGS)))
I do remember the boy. So glad it ended up being a friendship. I, too, sometimes feel that every date I go on will end up being a friend but it is just a feeling and I’m learning not to believe everything my subconscious wants to dream up. I reread what I wrote last on my thread and am preparing for the chorus of “don’t get ahead of yourself DV” and “don’t set yourself up for disappointment”. The thing is... I am well aware I do both of these things and I am totally okay with it because that is just who I am. I’m a glass half full person...I still believe in true love...I still think it can happen for me and the one thing that I KNOW is that I have been to hell and back and I am BETTER THAN EVER. So who cares!! If I set myself up for a hundred more heartbreaks I’m okay with it cause I know I will survive...lol. So I am okay with “I told you so’s” because I know one day it will be me saying it...lol. To you too my beautiful friend. I know good things are ahead for you as well. You just have to get through that last little bit of letting go. It’s coming...I know it is... and when you finally feel it 100%, it will be so freeing. I promise you!!!
Finally texted the guy I went out with last week and told him I am interested in being friends with him but not interested in him romantically and if he was okay with that, we should hang out. Turns out he is so we are going to get together later this week to look at Jupiter and Saturn through my daughter’s telescope. Hoping to catch the comet too. Anyway...I am happy to be making a new friend since most of mine are married or in LTR’s.
Looking forward to hearing about your date this weekend!!! (((HUGS)))
Re: Standing vs standing still - 07/21/20 12:36 PM