What direction NOW? pt. 2

[DC421]

First thread

I am grateful I discovered this site...and the fact that so many of you are generous with your words and support. It's really been a game changer. Now I will try to answer the questions from Sandi's last post:

W had shown to inappropriate behavior prior to affair.

W quit job on her own accord. It was a very part time job...yes she has a career working full time elsewhere.

She didn't end the affair because she was caught. It was about 2 months after discovery. She has shown constant shame over herself with this affair. I think she knows ending it was the right thing to do. She's smart enough to see no future with him when she really stops and thinks about it. But her emotions have kept her justifying it. But, even though she says she ended it....she hasn't.

The rule I was referring to is the "no talk about marriage unless she starts it"...that combined with the whole pulling back and not believing what she says/does. As she continues to contact the OM and lie about it...I find it hard to stay quiet and let her get away with it. At what point do I say "ENOUGH LIES"? The longer I continue DBing and be patient...the more it feels like I'm letting her get away with whatever she wants. How do I "call the shots" and remain on the DB track?

Sandi - I truly appreciate your words and honesty. You don't need to step softly with me...I need to hear it and can take it. Your thoughts on the "playing happy family" and being "great actresses" are dead on. I need to always remember that. The more I do read and learn...the more I seem to be detatching from any certain outcome. I catch myself more and more thinking about a positive future without her. I guess thats good? But it does make me sad.

About a month ago after we had attended a couple of MC appts....I told her I had discovered another counselor in town that deals more specifically with affair/infidelity than the one we were seeing. Just last night she asked me to schedule an appt with the new one. Not sure what the takeaway is there...but I feel that MCing was useless until we deal with the affair head on. If a counselor better suited to help with that can help...I'll try.

R2C: I will work on less words and more eye contact. Good advice.

[DC421]

One edit to last post....it should have read "Wife had shown NO inappropriate behavior prior to A"

[Ready2Change]

As she continues to contact the OM and lie about it...I find it hard to stay quiet and let her get away with it. At what point do I say "ENOUGH LIES"? The longer I continue DBing and be patient...the more it feels like I'm letting her get away with whatever she wants. How do I "call the shots" and remain on the DB track?

I like this:
"Stop. We both know you are lying. When you are ready to speak the truth, I will listen." Turn and walk away


If you dig through my quotes thread, start with #3. You will find some very wise posters with great advise.

[sandi2]

Thanks for answering my questions. It really helps in getting a clearer view.

She's smart enough to see no future with him when she really stops and thinks about it. But her emotions have kept her justifying it. But, even though she says she ended it....she hasn't.

She has not ended her A?

The rule I was referring to is the "no talk about marriage unless she starts it"...that combined with the whole pulling back and not believing what she says/does. As she continues to contact the OM and lie about it...I find it hard to stay quiet and let her get away with it. At what point do I say "ENOUGH LIES"? The longer I continue DBing and be patient...the more it feels like I'm letting her get away with whatever she wants. How do I "call the shots" and remain on the DB track?

Okay, gottcha. Well, let's talk about the rules, first. Clearly you read them with your situation in mind, which anyone would normally do. The list, and explanations with the rules were written, were from the view point of a recovering WW......which was me. It started with me typing this short list to a LBS who was a newcomer and had no idea which way to turn. So, I quickly typed up this list and posted it to him. Did I do a sufficient job at explaining them? No, I didn't. I wasn't trying to explain them. This was just suppose to be list of "do's and don'ts". They were passed around and became known as "Sandi's Rules" or some people refer to them as "The 180's". I was even shocked to see them on another website! (Gee, now I wish I had written a book of explanations! ) Oh well, I can always post to individuals who couldn't read my mind when I was listing the "rules". (Just kidding, that's my weird sense of humor showing out.)

Rule #15. "When at home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation---then don't, wait for him/her) then, be rather scarce with your words, but don't sound rude or too short like you are mad. If your spouse asks what's wrong....just say "nothing" and have a pleasant expression on your face. Keep it short and simple. Don't get into an argument! Stay polite and don’ t act like you are pouting. Use poise and class. This does not mean to act like you aren’t speaking, but don’t be overly talkative".

This is really about the LBS who tries to keep the other spouse glued to them by pursuing conversations. This LBS will find anything to talk about b/c he sees it as an avenue to hold the other spouse closer. (Have you ever met someone who wouldn't shut up and go on and leave you along?) Even if the LBS is not the talkative type who pursues in conversations, the point is to not place emotional pressure on the spouse that wants out of the MR.

Here's the thing. You are in a situation like you've never experienced (I assume). What might have worked in previous situations where you kissed and made up...…..is going to bomb if you try it now. Almost everything your emotions are screaming to do......you have to do the opposite. You cannot operate from your emotions. They are NOT designed to think, they are designed to feel. So, to help you get to a place where you can operate from a calmer, more collected, organized, mindset.....you are welcome to follow these 37 tips of do's & don'ts. As you become more DB informed, you will need to think about a plan of action that is based on your personal standards, values, integrity, etc.

Now back to your quote: "As she continues to contact the OM and lie about it...I find it hard to stay quiet and let her get away with it. At what point do I say "ENOUGH LIES"? The longer I continue DBing and be patient...the more it feels like I'm letting her get away with whatever she wants. How do I "call the shots" and remain on the DB track?"


So, does your W know that you know she's still contacting OM? The rules are not about letting a wayward spouse get away with cheating. The point of where do you say, "Enough lies", comes in the form of setting personal boundaries. Have you read the link on Cadet's post? Personal boundaries are all about YOU. It's like having an invisible line or shield around you, protecting your feelings. Only you can protect your feelings, and only you decide what can or cannot cross that line to hurt you. If your boundary is not respected, then it's up to you to do something to protect yourself. If a stranger attacked you, you would fight back, run away, or call the police....something, right? That's kind of built in us to protect ourselves from violence. When it comes to those who are the closest to us, it gets more complicated, b/c we love them and we allow them to treat us badly.

Let's say for an example that one of your boundaries is: "I will not stay in a marriage of three"...……..or, "I will not stay in an open marriage". Okay, that boundary is probably based on your values, spiritual/religious beliefs, principles and standards, etc. Obviously, your W has compromised her vows, to say the least, and she is pushing your boundaries hard. Therefore, if you approach her and say, "I will not stay in an open marriage"......then what? What if she doesn't respect it? Then it's up to you to do some action that will protect yourself. You may have to leave her, even get a divorce, in order to protect yourself from the dishonor that's been inflicted. So, don't use a boundary as a threat or an ultimatum. You can't force her to do anything she doesn't want to do. She has a choice here. She can choose to continue contacting OM, or she can choose to honor your boundary. If she chooses not to honor it, then only YOU can do something. Not her, but you. You set the boundary, she violates it, so you have to backup your words. Understand? This is only one example, and I strongly caution you not to use it, unless you are fully prepared to end the M.

For now, I hope you won't do anything until you run it by here first. Newcomers jump into something before they fully understand, and make matters worse.

[DC421]

Thank so much, Sandi! Great explanations and advice.

I honestly didn't know you were the original author of the rules. I just assumed you were the "local expert" here on this site. You should have written a book!! I've seen them on so many other websites.

I have read the thread on boundaries...I struggle with this. I'd love to be able to tell her "I'm not interested in being with someone who lies and cheats on me...and if it continues, I'm gone". I not at a point that I'm confident I would follow thru with that YET...I do feel I'm getting closer to that point. That's why I continue to do my best to follow the rules and come here for advice.

I feel I'm pretty good at following the rules from a black and white standpoint...meaning I can follow them as written. I will go back in and take them one by one...and try to see my situation within each one and possible tweaks to them.

Question: My w has been saying that my attitude stinks lately. She says at times I'm borderline rude and pushing her away. Do you think that means that she has noticed a shift...or that I need to work on being nicer to her while following the rules?? I don't think I've been rude or had a bad attitude at all...I've just been a lot less talkative and more direct with short answers. She has also used the term "Mr. Independent" to describe me lately.

For example: This morning she asks me "do you think we will ever try to be intimate again?" My response was "I don't know" She said "that's your answer, thats it??" She knows my boundary about not being physical until I'm confident that the OM is out of the picture. I've been able to stick to it. She said she very much misses being close to me...and I did say that I miss it too. SHe then went on a speech about how she is trying so hard to end the affair...saying she hasn't seen him in weeks and she has said NO to every request from him to get together for weeks. I didn't say anything...she was almost arguing with herself about how hard it has been to back away from OM...and that she feels she deserves at least some credit for trying/doing better. I did my best to validate her feelings...and said that if she truly wants to work on saving our marriage...it has to be over. I did my best to validate her feelings...look her in eye...and using as few words as possible. In the end I reminded her that she asked for time & space to work thru this...and I have been giving her that. I said now it's me that is taking time & space to figure our what I want to do. Then I walked away. She left with her son to go shopping...I left the house to gal. She called just now to say they are on the way home...and asked other kid related questions...normal phone call.

I try not to dissect every conversation with her...but that is kind of a side effect of this board. I have benefited greatly from the others and suggestions on here...and it's a great place to journal. I find myself going back and re-reading my posts to remember exactly how situations happened. Nice tool for that.

I have been reading a lot of more sad posts on here as we navigated the holidays. My heart goes out to all of you who are struggling...and the holidays just amplify so much of those emotions. I for one am VERY glad that Christmas is over...and I'm actually looking forward to putting 2018 in the rearview. 2019 is going to be a much better year no matter what happens....either my w and I work to fix our marriage...or I decide to move on without her...and put this ugly chapter behind me. I'm ready...I think.

[neffer]

Keep moving forward. Keep reading. You are surviving temp checks. Just that. Keep applying DB rules, starting with: believe nothing that they say... she must keep working on herself, has she started? AP addiction takes long to stop.
It takes time DC.

Stand strong there!

[LH19]

DC,

I'm going to be honest with you in that I think you are in a crucial point in your sitch where mistakes can cost you dearly. She is trying to manipulate you!!!!!! She's having an affair and she doesn't like your attitude wtf???? She's trying to control you with sex so do not give into your boundary.

She's trying so hard to end the affair. The poor baby. How about trying hard to save her marriage and making up for the damage and hurt she has done????

Your next moves better be from strength or you better fasten your seatbelt because you will be on a long painful ride like you have never felt before.

[DC421]

Thanks guys! Responses/reminders/2X4s like that are why this board is so important.

[DC421]

LH- As I re read your post. Can you tell me why you think I’m in a crucial point in my sitch? I see the manipulation but why is this point more crucial than other points? Help me understand.

[LH19]

She's testing you to see if you will allow her to cake eat. My guess is she doesn't know where she stands with OM so she's not ready to give you up yet. If she can manipulate you then she has time to see if there is a future with OM. Then on the flip side if you allow her to cake eat she will see you as weak and you will lose value in her eyes.

It is extremely difficult for newbies to show strength early on.

[sandi2]

Thank so much, Sandi! Great explanations and advice.

Well thanks, but most of them can be found in MWD's Divorce Remedy. I added some, put in the explanations, and typed the list up as they came to my mind. I wish I had done a better job, and at least organized it. But that's how they were entering my mind as I typed the post. I've been thinking about trying to do an updated version and add more explanations, since I've been able to see the ones that cause newcomers the most confusion.

Question: My w has been saying that my attitude stinks lately. She says at times I'm borderline rude and pushing her away. Do you think that means that she has noticed a shift...or that I need to work on being nicer to her while following the rules?? I don't think I've been rude or had a bad attitude at all...I've just been a lot less talkative and more direct with short answers. She has also used the term "Mr. Independent" to describe me lately.

I have found newcomers, and especially if they have NGS, to struggle in finding balance. They go from one end of the spectrum to the extreme opposite end. Finding the middle is difficult for them. So, my guess is that you are coming across to her as being cold, angry, or pouting. This is true for some who are trying to learn how to detach.

I remember some people thinking the rule about not starting conversations meant not to speak.

This morning she asks me "do you think we will ever try to be intimate again?" My response was "I don't know"

When she asks stupid questions, just look at her as if she's lost her mind and say, "Seriously?" If it were you seeing OW, would your W be checking to see if the two of you will ever have sex again? I doubt it.

SHe then went on a speech about how she is trying so hard to end the affair...saying she hasn't seen him in weeks and she has said NO to every request from him to get together for weeks.

There is no "try" in ending an affair. There is no tapering off. There is no one last time in order to get "closure". It has to be sudden, final, and forever. As long as she is having any sort of contact with him, she'll stay addicted. Once she ends all contact, then she'll go through withdrawals and think she's going to die if she doesn't have some type of contact with him. The fact that the OM is still contacting her shows that she has not done what she needs to do to stop an A. She has not convince the OM that she really means it. Apparently, she has not blocked him from her phone or however he's contacting her. She's spoiled and doesn't want to end the A. She's probably crying and telling him how hard this is for her, and how much she misses him. If she's said this to her H, why wouldn't say it to her lover?

If my spouse told me that he was trying to end his A with OW......I would be so furious there's no telling what I might do, but one thing is for sure, he'd know not to tell me he was trying to stop screwing another woman or trying to not talk to her! But you see, I have also leaned that women who become WW's usually have a certain temperament and spunk.... and based on the stories here, the majority seem to be M to men with NGS.

she was almost arguing with herself about how hard it has been to back away from OM...and that she feels she deserves at least some credit for trying/doing better.

No credit earned as long as she continues to interact with OM. She is milking this for what all it's worth. What? You are suppose to feel sorry for her or praise her for not doing him recently? Like I said, think of how it would be if you were the one in an A.

Let me tell you something else that is often seen in WW cases. The WW is motivated by her selfishness, and she has a sense of entitlement. She can act like a spoiled brat, b/c her nice-guy H has spoiled her rotten. The more spoiled and bigger sense of entitlement......the tougher love the H has to apply.

I did my best to validate her feelings...and said that if she truly wants to work on saving our marriage...it has to be over.

How? What did you say to validate her feelings? I mean, LBH's are always saying that they validate the WW, but they don't say how they validate. Call me cold.....call me mean and hateful.....but I would not validate a WW who is crying over not being able to see her AP. Look, this is exactly why your WW feels she can cheat on you and show disrespect.....b/c you are too nice. You are too soft. You want to know why she continued sounding as if she was arguing with herself? B/c she wanted to get a sympathetic response, and wanted you to do your comforting thing when she turns on the tears. She temp checked you.

I did my best to validate her feelings...look her in eye...and using as few words as possible. In the end I reminded her that she asked for time & space to work thru this...and I have been giving her that. I said now it's me that is taking time & space to figure our what I want to do. Then I walked away.

I liked that last part you said, and then walked away. However, she's not convinced.

She left with her son to go shopping

Real tore up, wasn't she?

I left the house to gal.

That's great! Exactly what you should have done!

She called just now to say they are on the way home...and asked other kid related questions...normal phone call.

No, this was no "normal" phone call. She just temp checked you again. That was her way to see if she could determine if you sounded upset or cold or whatever, after you said your little bit and walked away from her. And also, she wanted to know where the heck you were (b/c you didn't check with her), what you were doing, and when you would be home. Yep! That's okay, you've made a good start. Now, just hang with it, b/c it's going to be a bumpy ride.

I try not to dissect every conversation with her...but that is kind of a side effect of this board.

Well, you'll see a lot of posts where we dissect someone else's post on their thread, b/c that's one of the ways we can specifically point things out and try to tell you what was really going on with the spouse, and try to offer the tools to use if they experience it again. And then there are a lot of newcomers who dissect there spouse's actions, etc., due to their own stress about their sitch. But I'm glad you brought this up, b/c I don't want you to feel like anyone is beating you up or picking on you. I have felt a little sorry for some newcomers who feel like they can't do anything right. They don't know it's just cause we love 'em.

[ovrrnbw]

DC,

how you doin man? I had to laugh at this:

Question: My w has been saying that my attitude stinks lately. She says at times I'm borderline rude and pushing her away. Do you think that means that she has noticed a shift...or that I need to work on being nicer to her while following the rules?? I don't think I've been rude or had a bad attitude at all...I've just been a lot less talkative and more direct with short answers. She has also used the term "Mr. Independent" to describe me lately.

You'll laugh your butt off as you gain more experience and look back at this. WW's are pros when it comes to projection. She is projecting her feelings on to you. Then she hits you with a temp-check. She wants to make sure you still want her. You didn't take the bait, good job. I failed that test so many times, and was happy to see you stayed ho-hum on it. Then she dug deeper and asked again and started name calling. She is goading you into admitting you want her or to start an argument with the name calling. Fuggedaboutit....

LH is so right man you don't even know. You either stand up for yourself now or sit down and buckle up for a wild, crappy ride. I took the NGS, weak route because the immediate pain scared me. Trust me, this woman is watching you like a lion watches a gazelle. Sounds primitive, but I've always said that people are animals too. We just like to pretend that we're somehow better or more sophisticated.

[DC421]

UGH. FAIL!!!

We got into it again last night as she pulled me into an argument....and I couldn't bite my tounge. The whole time I'm seeing "LH19" flashing in my mind and your reminder how crucial of a point I'm at....but I (bleeping) dove right in. UGH. She kept givng me the excuses...and telling me she's trying...and I just let the word diarrea fly. Telling her she's full of it...trying means nothing...and "just go live with that moron. I'm sure you'll have a great life in his parents basement." blah blah blah. She just kept saying "I don't want too" when I told her to leave and have a nice life with him. I told her I had met with my attorney and I'm not afraid of divorce! God, I'm just such a sucker to get pulled into that. Again, ;the entire time I'm hearing all of you guys from here yelling at me! I finally regrouped and walked away and went to bed. She stayed out of the bedroom. Just a massive fail...but it's so hard to stop myself at times. So hard...she's ruined so much joy and happiness and just destroyed so many memories with her selfishness. I guess I just need to look at it as a learning experience? DB like a monster in 2019...keep reading, keep learning, keep hoping....at least for a while. I meant what I said in an earlier post...I am looking forward to the new year. 2018 was the worst...as Clark Griswold said "worse. How can it get any worse?"

LH and Over...I appreaciate your posts. Even with this massive fair...I'm trying...don't give up on me yet.

To answer some questions and more...

Sandi... As you said. Finding the middle is so hard. I find myself bouncing from one extreme to the other. One minute I want to believe her BS....then I come here and read the truth from those who have lived it. One minute I want to shower her with love....then I want to put her in my car and drive the OM house and say "good luck with THAT!"

Yes...i know, i know i know....there is no "trying" to end the affair. All or nothing! I continue to really struggle when she throws out the "I'm trying" crap. I hear words from the page in my head..."validate", "tough love", "say nothing", "remain calm and be short with words"...I get stuck....until I unload way more that I should.

As far as validating...I simply said "I'm sure it's hard on you". But I still don't know the correct response. As I said before, I don't feel I'm at a strong enough spot YET...to put down the ultimatum/boundary. But I am getting close to at least laying down some rules of an in home separation and keeping her out of the MBR. She is totally getting away with cake eating....and I keep stumbling and letting this continue.

Sandi...by the way...I in NO WAY feel beat up by any of your advice or posts on this page. I value each and every piece of advice...even when it may appear that I'm not listening....I am. I just keep getting in my own way. I'm trying. But, give it to me straight...I can take it.

[LH19]

UGH. FAIL!!!

[quote=DC421] We got into it again last night as she pulled me into an argument....and I couldn't bite my tounge. The whole time I'm seeing "LH19" flashing in my mind and your reminder how crucial of a point I'm at....but I (bleeping) dove right in. UGH.

Learning to control your emotions is difficult but crucial especially in situations like this. When you feel yourself losing control simply walk away.

She kept givng me the excuses...and telling me she's trying...and I just let the word diarrea fly. Telling her she's full of it...trying means nothing...and "just go live with that moron. I'm sure you'll have a great life in his parents basement." blah blah blah. She just kept saying "I don't want too" when I told her to leave and have a nice life with him. I told her I had met with my attorney and I'm not afraid of divorce! God, I'm just such a sucker to get pulled into that.
Again, ;the entire time I'm hearing all of you guys from here yelling at me!

You shouldn't being making these idol threats especially when you are not prepared to back them up it makes you look weak.

I finally regrouped and walked away and went to bed. She stayed out of the bedroom. Just a massive fail...but it's so hard to stop myself at times.

Perfect move. Tonight move all her stuff in the other room and establish from this point forward you do not share a bed with a cheater.

So hard...she's ruined so much joy and happiness and just destroyed so many memories with her selfishness. I guess I just need to look at it as a learning experience? DB like a monster in 2019...keep reading, keep learning, keep hoping....at least for a while. I meant what I said in an earlier post...I am looking forward to the new year. 2018 was the worst...as Clark Griswold said "worse. How can it get any worse?"

This is probably going to be the hardest thing you have ever gone through in your life. Unfortunately it is going to get worse before it gets better so I want you to start to prepare for it.

LH and Over...I appreaciate your posts. Even with this massive fair...I'm trying...don't give up on me yet.

I am not going to give up on you. Part of my purpose and mission to try to help people on this board.

One minute I want to believe her BS....then I come here and read the truth from those who have lived it. One minute I want to shower her with love....then I want to put her in my car and drive the OM house and say "good luck with THAT!"

It is natural to want to believe the woman you love. Unfortunately I have been on this board for 4 years and everything is so predictable I feel like Nostradamus sometimes.

Yes...i know, i know i know....there is no "trying" to end the affair. All or nothing! I continue to really struggle when she throws out the "I'm trying" crap. I hear words from the page in my head..."validate", "tough love", "say nothing", "remain calm and be short with words"...I get stuck....until I unload way more that I should.

You don't want to over validate a wayward wife it can make you look weak and pathetic.

As far as validating...I simply said "I'm sure it's hard on you". But I still don't know the correct response. As I said before, I don't feel I'm at a strong enough spot YET...to put down the ultimatum/boundary.

I would just simply say " I know it's hard. Sometimes life is really hard".

But I am getting close to at least laying down some rules of an in home separation and keeping her out of the MBR. She is totally getting away with cake eating....and I keep stumbling and letting this continue.

I am going to give you my opinion. In house separation rarely works and it will put you into limbo that will suck the life out of you. I am also very leery of you trying to set ground rules for an in house separation because of the concern you will not be able to implement consequences for the rules being broken. What do you have in mind for ground rules?

[DC421]

LH - Thanks as always for the words! As for as IHS goes...I agree. I'm not 100% confident in myself yet. I do feel I could back up the boundary of not sharing the bed going forward. Is that worth it for a start...or should I wait until I feel more confident?? And if so, is it best to put it to here like you said..."I will no longer share a bed with a cheater". Or is that too harsh language?

I must be completely misunderstanding validation. I will go back and read that thread again. I have never understood the point of it....and your comment about not validating a WW just make sense. When is the right time for validation?

[LH19]

DC,

Start with the Master bedroom right away. She slept elsewhere last night. Make it permanent until the affair stops. How about "Under the current circumstances, I will not be sharing the martial bed with you right now."

I am not saying validating her in certain circumstances isn't good right now. I am just saying to be careful over doing it and validating her affair.

I am concerned that by the time you get strong enough, too much damage will have been done and it will be too late.

If you have time read Hurt123's thread and see what happens when affairs are open and tolerated.

[burned]

I am concerned that by the time you get strong enough, too much damage will have been done and it will be too late.

DC, you’ve got some really good guidance very early in your sitch, or at least early in your attempts to influence the outcome. You’ve probably read some of my stuff, so I can tell you from firsthand experience what LH means by “strong enough.” Not sure how I feel about the “too late” part. Too late to save the M, as-is? Maybe? Possibly not too late to recon later? Not sure. (Curious to hear more from Nostradamus.) But look at Joe2017 and how quickly he got strong, maybe that’s why he got a chance for recon within a year.

I’m also curious to see how the IHS vs. physical S plays out. I hear people say that IHS is difficult and physical S is “better” in a sense. I didn’t have a choice in the matter but I’m starting to feel the benefits of physical S after many months. I imagine it would be a very hard choice to make if I had to make it myself.

So, hang in there, buddy. Show us how a real man handles himself.

[LH19]

Of course there is always a chance of recon after divorce but the odds go way down.

[Ready2Change]

Start with the Master bedroom right away. She slept elsewhere last night. Make it permanent until the affair stops. How about "Under the current circumstances, I will not be sharing the martial bed with you right now."

Make it YOURS. Make it Manly.

Pictures of Motorcycle, Cars, Guns, whatever. Get new bedding. Put the stereo in there. Listen to it as loud as you like.

[Ready2Change]

Respectfully put her things out of the room.

[Ready2Change]

UGH. FAIL!!!.....trying means nothing...and "just go live with that moron. I'm sure you'll have a great life in his parents basement." blah blah blah. She just kept saying "I don't want too" when I told her to leave and have a nice life with him. I told her I had met with my attorney and I'm not afraid of divorce!

I don't believe it was a fail based on this. If she heard you.

Less words is always better, but sometimes it is hard to hold back.

[joejoe1]

DC,

We don't fail, we gain experience and apply it in the future. Don't be so hard on yourself. This is a crazy period in your life and sometimes we lose control because we are so passionate about what's happening.

IMO, you said a lot, but your W can start to see some strength coming from you. Keep reading, keep posting.

Onward and Forward

[sandi2]

We got into it again last night as she pulled me into an argument....and I couldn't bite my tounge

Perhaps you should apply duct tape over your mouth.

I must be completely misunderstanding validation.

IMHO, the H should not even attempt of validate his WW when she is talking about her feelings for her AP. The H does need to say something that sounds as if he is agreeing, or is empathetic for her feelings that are tied to the AP. In her frame of mind, I believe she can misread his show of tenderness, and she will use it to totally manipulate him emotionally. However, if she has truly ended all contact from OM; has committed to saving the MR; is cooperating in a transparency plan...... then the H should be encouraging and validate her as she goes through the withdrawal stages of the A.

I've found very, very few LBH's who seem to be able to implement validation naturally. Another Stander is one of the best of our current active members, IMHO. But it just does not come naturally for most men who are in the initial stages of dealing with a WW. He either over-kills and comes off sounds like an a$$ kisser; or he repeats the same one, which becomes boring and loses effectiveness; or he says something that is totally misplaced in the current conversation from his WW.

Due to these reasons ^^^^^^^^^^, I think it's best that the LBH not try to verbally validate his WW when she is throwing a tantrum, ridiculing him, having a pity party, etc. I am not against validating people, I just believe with WW cases, the H must be careful or she can easily take what he says and use it against him. I have seen some newcomers who just wanted to try the validating method, and was focused on using it rather on the right time and circumstances.....and it would come across making him look completely weird or weak. So, until the H is satisfied his WW is truly committed and not contacting her AP, I think it's better if he didn't try to validate. That's just me. I think there is a reason newcomers pay so much attention to validation......especially men who have NGS. B/c these men want to nice back their WW, and they see validation as a nice way. They don't really understand it.

Sandi... As you said. Finding the middle is so hard. I find myself bouncing from one extreme to the other.

I don't know the proper name, but carpenters use this little hand held tool to measure something from point A to point B. There's like a little bubble inside this tube on the tool that shows if the project is too low or too high from either side. If the bubble goes to the left or right, then he knows the project is unlevel. What he wants to see is that bubble right in the center, b/c that tells him the structure is level. That's the image I get when talking about balancing.

[DC421]

Reading, learning, trying.

Pretty quiet New Years Eve and Day. Her adult son stayed with us for a few days...so that has kept her occupied and I've been a bit out of her space...and her a bit out of mine.

Yesterday morning I said I wanted to un-Christmas this house. She objected, saying she wants to have a day to do nothing. I don't know if this is a trait of WW's...but she has been very unmotivated to take care of anything (including herself) lately?? Things around the house, even her kids...just not doing as normal. Anyway, I told her she didn't need to help but I was going to get it done on my day off. So I enlisted the help of her kids and packed up everything and got it all done. She walked into the living room while I was packing stuff up...and said "I don't like your vibe". LOL. I was cleaning, playing music even had a cocktail. Terrible vibe for sure!

She spent the day downstairs with her son watching movies. I stayed upstairs. I cleaned, did some work outside, read and watched some tv on my own. There was a plan to make dinner...but suddenly they ordered pizza mid afternoon. So, I made myself dinner. Later, after I had already gone to MBR for the night...she came up and said "So I guess this means your not making dinner?" I said I ate after pizza showed up...so not tonight.

This morning when I get to work...I notice her keys in my vehicle. I texted her that her keys were with me. She replied "how am I going to get to work?!!" I didn't reply. Then about an hour later...she said her son would drive her and asked me to bring keys home at lunch. I replied with "I'm not coming home for lunch today...you'll have to stop by my office and grab them". Normally I would have gone out of my way to get her keys to her. I'm not being a jerk...I'm just not saving her anymore. I don't need to act like her husband when she is the WW.

I haven't set the MBR boundary yet...although she hasn't slept in our bed for the past few night anyway. I plan to set that boundary and move her stuff out of MBR tonight or tomorrow, depending on work schedule. My plan is to be as brief as possible when telling her. Something as such... "when this all started a few months ago, you asked for time and space. I have given you that. Since then, you have made no meaningful effort to end your A...and shown no indication that you are interested in working on our marriage...even though I have made it clear that I am willing to do so. So, now it's me that needs time and space. I can no longer share a bed with you since you continue to see/contact OM. I will move your things out of the room and bathroom and I ask you to respect my space going forward."

Thoughts on this plan/statement?? Too much talking? Other advice?

[LH19]

This morning when I get to work...I notice her keys in my vehicle. I texted her that her keys were with me. She replied "how am I going to get to work?!!" I didn't reply.

Why did you not respond to her text? No response comes off as you being passive aggressive.

I haven't set the MBR boundary yet...although she hasn't slept in our bed for the past few night anyway. I plan to set that boundary and move her stuff out of MBR tonight or tomorrow, depending on work schedule. My plan is to be as brief as possible when telling her. Something as such... "when this all started a few months ago, you asked for time and space. I have given you that. Since then, you have made no meaningful effort to end your A...and shown no indication that you are interested in working on our marriage...even though I have made it clear that I am willing to do so. So, now it's me that needs time and space. I can no longer share a bed with you since you continue to see/contact OM. I will move your things out of the room and bathroom and I ask you to respect my space going forward."

Too much talking. I think you are looking for a reaction from her. I wouldn't give her a warning, I would just do it. I gave you a brief response in a previous thread.

[DC421]

LH - I figured that was too much talking. Maybe that's my planned response when she asks WTF are you doing? She will.

And I didn't respond as I was busy with work. I saw the text and planned to respond eventually. By the time I got to it...she had texted more. I should have explained that better in my post. I do try not to respond immediately to her texts...but I eventually do if necessary.

[LH19]

DC,

"W we both know why I removed your stuff from the MB."

Direct and to the point. Words don't mean $hit right now. Only actions do.

[sandi2]

Ugh.....I made a big typo when I wrote, " The H does need to say something that sounds as if he is agreeing". It should have been, "The H does not need to say something that sounds as if he is agreeing".

[DC421]

Thanks Sandi....I wondered about that. Thanks for clarification.

New Question: I had reached out to a different relationship counselor based on a friends recommendation...one that deals specifically with infidelity. This site helped me realize that traditional MCing doesn't mean cr@p as long as the affair continues. So the counselor responded with:

" Thanks for reaching out! If she hasn't ended the affair, you can't begin to heal from it. It sounds like you both may be more suitable for Discernment Counseling. More information about that service can be found here..."

Anyone with experience in Discernment Counseling???

[LH19]

Right now I think your best bet is to get individual counseling for yourself. Work on you. You can't fix her.

[ovrrnbw]

Leave this part out:

even though I have made it clear that I am willing to do so

And use fewer words.

[Ready2Change]

"W we both know why I removed your stuff from the MB."

Direct and to the point. Words don't mean $hit right now. Only actions do.

Agree.


You say this only after she asks. Do it confidently, matter of fact, holding eye contact, wait for her to break eye contact first. Then shut up and listen. Let her vent whatever....

At some point this "Sorry you feel that way" or something similar may be appropriate.

[DC421]

Last night...

We both came home late. Me from work, her from appt. I did not get a chance to move her stuff out of MBR but she continues to sleep elsewhere anyway. It was just the 2 of us in the house and she sat down and wanted to talk. To back up a bit, a few weeks ago someone we know recommended a new counselor given our situation. A counselor more specializing in a sitch like ours. We both agreed to look into this counselor. The office was closed for a couple of weeks over the holiday's so I didn't hear back from counselor until yesterday. This is the counselor who suggested discernment counseling. I simply forwarded the email to my W with no comment.

So that led her no ask me "what do you think of the suggestion in the email". I simply said "I'm not really sure". She said she had looked a lot more into this type of counseling and thought it would be something we should try. I was listening, not speaking...and holding eye contact. She lost it. Sobbing. Went on to say she misses us...and it breaks her heart everytime she thinks about the damage she has caused. Continues to say she's scared that we won't be able to fix our marriage...and wonders if I still want too. She said she noticed how I'm changing, taking care of myself and she feels pulling away from her with a new/different attitude. I still have said basically nothing beside "uh huh" and nodding. A lot of talk about how disappointed she is in her self and she can't believe this is where we are at...and what she has caused.

She said even though she thinks I wasn't hearing her when we were struggling prior to A...that she should have said more, talked more, spoke up. At this point my only statement was that I need to research this type of counseling a bit more before I decide. I admitted I am certainly ready to move on with or without our marriage...and this whole situation has been a personal wake up call for me. I said I have thought about my life play with and without her. And if this type of counseling can help me understand what I want...then maybe it's worth a try. She continued to cry saying how heartbroken she is for me, her kids, our family, etc.

She went on to admit that she is struggling to go NC with the AP. Claiming to have not had any contact for nearly the past week. She told me that she is so upset about leaving him that she couldn't even work yesterday. She said having her adult son staying with us the past few days has been a good distraction from it...but she simply couldn't function yesterday. I did tell her I wish I could believe her...but given recent history....I need more than words. I wasn't rude, short or mean. But I did say less in this discussion than ever. I gave her a lot of eye contact and tried to keep the focus on her. Slight validations..but not much. I kept hearing the words from this board in my head...and I thought very carefully about my responses. My demeaner remained up...I didn't get upset or act sad. Felt confident. I did have a voice in my head saying "geez, wouldn't it be nice to be done with all this drama and emotional weight". Normally I would have been offering suggestions and trying to "fix" all it it. Been reading No More Mr Nice Guy and it started to make sense during this discussion to me internally. No matter what she said...I felt stronger from this discussion.

I don't really know what to make of it all...and it certainly doesn't change my plan going forward. Just a different feel from this one. From what I've read about discernment counseling...the goal is to decide on 3 outcomes...

1. Stay married as is. (NO)
2. Move towards divorce. (MAYBE)
3 Or decide to do full-on couples therapy for six months to see if the marriage can be put into a good place, with a clear agenda for personal change and with divorce off the table during this time. (MAYBE)

Still looking for someone on here who has had experience with this...anyone??

[sandi2]

"when this all started a few months ago, you asked for time and space. I have given you that. Since then, you have made no meaningful effort to end your A...and shown no indication that you are interested in working on our marriage...even though I have made it clear that I am willing to do so. So, now it's me that needs time and space. I can no longer share a bed with you since you continue to see/contact OM. I will move your things out of the room and bathroom and I ask you to respect my space going forward."

That's a speech! I see you are definitely a member of the Wordy Family. I'm your cousin Sandi.

[LH19]

DC,

There are a lot of words on her end but I am yet to see any actions on her part. You want to hear from her "what do I need to do to fix our marriage"?

Right now she is giving you the WW script that we hear all the time. The concern is you go to counseling an she uses it against you and says "see we tried counseling and it didn't work".

You are getting better but you still talk too much and need to let your actions speak more then your words.

Forwarding her the email was a mistake. She should be sending you these emails if she really wants to work on the marriage. You're still showing her you care about the relationship more and unfortunately that puts her in charge.

If you allow her to eat cake she will eat cake.

[DC421]

That's a speech! I see you are definitely a member of the Wordy Family. I'm your cousin Sandi.

I agree. I didn't give her this speech and don't plan to thanks to the advice I received on here.

[DC421]

Forwarding her the email was a mistake. She should be sending you these emails if she really wants to work on the marriage. You're still showing her you care about the relationship more and unfortunately that puts her in charge.

If you allow her to eat cake she will eat cake.

The email was from a counselor we both agreed to look into weeks ago. At that point I told her I would email the counselor. She had asked about it from time to time. I simply forwarded it to her...and didn't add comment or bring it up. She did.

Going along the line of treating her like a business partner...I'm not sure how I don't forward the email. I guess I could have waited until she asked about it again...but she had asked within the last week and I said I'd tell her when I did.

[LH19]

The email was from a counselor we both agreed to look into weeks ago.

Did she forward you any emails about counselors?

[DC421]

Did she forward you any emails about counselors?

No...we agreed I would reach out to this counselor. She had been asking if I had heard anything. But I understand your point. It's a balancing act to stay with the rules, not be rude...and treat her as business partner.

[DC421]

Journaling.

Quiet night. W came home from work and first question was “did you hear back from counselor about an appointment.” I said that I was waiting on a call back. Other than that just small talk. I did a lot today to help my step kids. W needed help getting them to activities and I agreed. I love these kids...but at what point do I step back and help less? That’s hard.

Reading No More Mr Nice Guy....and it really hits home. Another side effect: it makes me feel like I married my wife for all the wrong reasons! Anyone else feel that way while reading?

[Grace21]

. From what I've read about discernment counseling...the goal is to decide on 3 outcomes...

1. Stay married as is. (NO)
2. Move towards divorce. (MAYBE)
3 Or decide to do full-on couples therapy for six months to see if the marriage can be put into a good place, with a clear agenda for personal change and with divorce off the table during this time. (MAYBE)

Still looking for someone on here who has had experience with this...anyone??

After 6 months of MC, my H and I did "discernment counseling". It was useful in our situation. Although we didn't reach any of those 3 decisions, it got ME to a place where I decided H was so stuck in his indecision that I thought he should move out to figure it out. It was too depressing living like roommates/friends. I felt like he was dragging me down, and I didn't like the person I was beginning living like that. I was starting to GAL at that point, and he was stuck. At the beginning of MC, I was the pursuer, wanting to fix this we can do this person. MC went no where because of his inability to do anything constructive. He seemed paralyzed in his self loathing and indecision. So because H wasn't willing to go all in with MC, we decided to try discernment counseling. I was surprised I was the one to make the decision. But, then again. Maybe in retrospect I shouldn't be surprised, because H won't ever face the difficult decisions.

Well, here we are. Now I wonder if in spite of my "I don't want a divorce", whether as the months go on I'll be the one to suggest it. It's really exhausting mentally sometimes.

Good luck with your "discernment counseling".!! I hope it brings some clarify to your situation.

[DC421]

Thanks Grace....good insight. I'm waiting to hear back from the counselor to set up the first appt. I hope it helps me understand what I truly want.

As I laid awake in bed last night I kept thinking "what am i doing"? I've noticed myself simply not liking my W these days. Even when she says nice things and shows (fake) remorse I just don't have positive thoughts about her. I don't believe a single word she says. What is it about us on this forum that allows the WS time/space/patience? Are we just weak? Why do we allow them anything after they have committed the ultimate slap in the face to us? I'm so sick and tired of the constant thoughts, drama, and wondering "what's next".

If DB'ing truly works...then wouldn't the ultimate DB to say "I'm done. I wish you well in life/relationships as you have chosen. But I'm moving on and loving myself and finding someone who would never disrespect the person they (??) love the most." Prior to meeting my now W...I had a year of being completely single....and ya know what?
It as one of the best years of my adult life. GAL and working on myself would be so much easier if it was just me. I'm not scared of divorce, I'm not scared of being alone. Short term pain, long term gain!

That being said, I love her. I truly thought we met for the right reasons and that she was the one. But she is no longer the woman I married, in so many ways. She is NOT someone I would be drawn to in her current place. So why do we try to save something they didn't think enough of not to cheat/lie/disrespect and F up!

I'm running out of runway....

[burned]

If DB'ing truly works...then wouldn't the ultimate DB to say "I'm done. I wish you well in life/relationships as you have chosen. But I'm moving on and loving myself and finding someone who would never disrespect the person they (??) love the most."

Yup. "I respect myself too much to live with someone who doesn't want me. I respect you too much to keep you here against your wishes. Call me if you change your mind." Bad@ss. Confident, fair, accepting. That's why it works.

[DC421]

"I respect myself too much to live with someone who doesn't want me. I respect you too much to keep you here against your wishes. Call me if you change your mind." Bad@ss. Confident, fair, accepting. That's why it works.

I like that! Gonna file that away for what may be a sooner than later moment.

[DC421]

So the W went out with “the girls” last night and never came home. ((Shock!!)). What’s my response when she shows up with some story.

[LH19]

Well number 1 I hope you took the time to move her $hit out of the MB.

You see you're making appointments with counselors and she's staying out all night with "the girls". The person who cares the least is in charge of the relationship.

She now knows you will tolerate the affair and she's testing you. She will come home and give you a bs story and cry and you will eat it up.

What do you think you should say?

Its probably a good idea to make a consultation with a lawyer.

[DC421]

Yes...I moved her stuff out of the MBR last night. She hasn't slept in that MBR for most of past week. She's on her way home now...I'm at work. I'm sure I'll be hearing from her soon. I plan to use the suggestion of "we both know why I moved your stuff out of the MBR". I'm also going to ask her to stay elsewhere for the next 2 nights as no kids are at our home until Monday.

Also, I already consulted with my attorney a few weeks ago.

[joejoe1]

DC,

Her disrespect is high and she has no regards for your feelings. You need to get out of the house today. Please don't sit around in a house with her today. Try your hardest to not be mean but be detached. Start treating her like a cashier at Target/Targét. If you see her, say hi and bye. If she ask where you are going say, "I'm going to enjoy the day". Don't answer her calls and text. When you get back to the house or the next time you see her she will try to turn the tables on you. Saying things like, " I had important things to tell you, but you wouldn't answer your phone or text." Just ask what was it you needed to tell me?" See what she has to say. If she doesn't have anything to say she will follow up with, where did you go? You say, "I told you I went out to enjoy the day". Don't ask her a single question about where she was and who was she with.

You are doing good

[DC421]

She called as predicted. I think I did a decent job of sticking to the script. Was probably a bit angrier then I should have been. But I held up pretty well, I think

I stuck with “we both know why I moved your stuff out of bedroom”, “We both know that’s not true” and “I respect myself to much to confine in this status quo”. She cried, begged. Saying “what can I do...I’ll do anything “. I told her I need her to leave the house and stay elsewhere the rest of the weekend”. Asking for enough respect to allow me space.

She agreed and when she started begging again...I ended the call. Probably should have sooner...but it’s tough.

[SoTorn]

Glad you got her out of the MBR. I have been in the MBR alone since September 2018. However the room was still decorated like it was when WW was sleeping in there and her clothes were in her old dresser. I changed the comforter and sheets, changed out all of the pictures on the walls and got her clothes packed up and tossed them in our storage closet.

My WW is too far gone to care so I dont expect to hear anything.

[sandi2]

She cried, begged. Saying “what can I do...I’ll do anything “.

She'll do anything for what? To stay in the MBR??? Stay in the marriage?

You handled that conversation really well, DC421. She may try to blow up your phone this weekend, trying to temp check you. My advice is to not respond to her texts throughout the weekend. You asked her to stay somewhere else and give you space. So, this weekend she will probably be focused on you and wondering what you plan to do.

She must "work" to get you back, b/c of her waywardness. Her reaction to you moving her things out and asking her to stay away this weekend was a good start. At this point, the only thing you want to hear from her is that she has ended things with OM. Until she ends her A, you aren't interested in sharing a home, and especially sharing the marital bedroom. Therefore, should she ask you again what she needs to do, or if she says she is willing to do anything.......your response to her is, "End things with OM and have zero contact with him......and agree to be transparent to me".

Now she may promise to end the A, but don't get excited you see some type of evidence that she has ended contact. That means if she is willing for NC with OM, then she has to agree to be completely transparent and work with you to do what's necessary to heal the MR. All you need in the beginning is her commitment to end all contact with OM and agree to be transparent to you. Until you get that part of it........there's no point in trying to hash out the problems, or agree to whatever alternative she may propose. This is all you need to share with her, so don't let her pull you off into some relationship discussion or distract you by telling you all the things you will need to change, too. No, you discuss nothing until she commits to those two terms. She betrayed you. It wasn't the other way around. And these are not the only requirements you'll have, but it is the first step. Don't respond to anything else, just tell her one time, and don't text anymore. Saying it one time and not responding to anymore texts from her, will have a much more powerful punch, than if you go into this back & forth texting thing. You are not interested in anything she has to say until she says she'll end the A and be transparent. Okay?

You may be surprised to hear her reluctance transparency. more than ending her A. WW's are not keen on doing it. I've seen cases where they got really irate about it, accuse the H of controlling, etc. Bear in mind, she is still wayward. Just ending an A does not end her wayward mindset/behavior. Understand? That's why you have to require transparency from her. And, some LBH's will tell the WW that he'll be transparent, too. No! Don't do that! He's not the wayward party here. She is! She has to give an account of her actions, as long as the H feels it necessary. It's not her call. It's his! She has to atone (as Vanilla would say). Just to clarify about her still being wayward when she ends the A........it is the first step in getting herself out of the wayward mindset. It's the first step back for her. So, I just wanted you to understand it.

So, that's the first step.

***************************************************************************************

As extra (you knew I wouldn't end a post there^^^^^^^^), I want to explain why this first step is necessary.

One of the biggest mistakes the LBH makes is taking his WW back too easily. In other words, he doesn't require anything other than ending her A. If the WW won't agree to be transparent......I guarantee you that she isn't ending her contact with OM. Transparency helps her in giving an account, and it assists her in getting through the emotional withdrawals of the A and moving forward in healing the MR. Obviously, it helps the H in several ways. I strongly advise the LBH to have some type of method or system that shows him she is staying on the narrow road back to establishing an honest and trustworthy MR.

You can't trust a WW's word alone. She will need to make amends, and follow some method that backs up what she claims. I think her agreeing to give you access to her phone activity is a good method. But beware, cause she's likely to buy a burner phone and keep it hidden. The LBH has to have something that verifies her claim. We use to have a vet that would say, "Trust and verify". I say to just verify, until you feel safer in the relationship. Then you can occasionally verify (without her ever knowing what you are doing). You want to have a means where you can check out what she's doing, without her being aware of it. Why? B/c she is a manipulator, a liar, a cheater........you get the picture. Besides, she agreed to be transparent, so you are just checking to make sure she's not playing you.

Any questions?

[DC421]

Sandi... great advice and info. I need it.

She has been blowing up my phone all day. I finally replied with "I asked for you to respect me enough to give me time and space this weekend...and you can't even manage that." Then I told her I would not be responding to anything else this weekend and reminded her to leave the house until Monday morning when kids return. She agreed and stopped texting for now. She will be leaving the house soon. I haven't been home all day...and won't be until much later than when she leaves. I had a fun/busy day already planned and I'm doing my best to not allow her to ruin that.

She said in her begging this morning that she would commit to NC with the OM. Saying she will block him on social media, phone, blah blah blah. She also volunteered the transparency piece too. I didn't respond to her on that part of the conversation. Like I said before (I think) - I told her words are easy and that she was in bed with OM just hours ago...so I don't believe anything you say.

She asked "what do I need to do to show you that I want to fix this". I didn't answer...as I feel it's not my job to tell her what to do. She needs to figure that out...not do it because I told her. Not sure that's right or not?? But it's what I said.

[Maximus]

Hi Sandi,

As always great great advice.

I have a question that also affects me.

When the WW cries and begs and asks what to do, she wants to be a family again, etc ... How do you know if she really is committed and just doesn't get better at hiding?

You may not remember my story but around 4 years ago I discovered the EA and after telling me she wanted a second chance, she loved me, etc I gave her a chance.

Throught these past 3 years there were moments I questioned certain incidents but she said i was mistaken and also that that part of her life was a messed up period and she moved on. She even went on to say the OM never contacted her again etc when the subject came up.

A few months ago I discovered by chance she was sending likes to some photos in his instagram account during these past 3 years and vice versa with the occasional text. Not all of the photos but each year at least 3-4 photos which obviously means there was continuous contact. The only non negotiable condition.

Her excuse was that he had an accident and ended up in coma. The story was true but even after coming out of it they still mantained contact via instagram at least.

After calling her out she now says what can she do to make it right, it was a dark moment she fell into and during the summer she began to realize she loved me and wants us to be a family and even move away to another city ot country.

I am planning on moving out for a while until I get my head into shape. DBing worked for me and I have approached this in a totally different frame of mind than expectd.

How do you react to this. How do trust them again? Can you trust them? How do you make sure you are not fooled again without being over controlling? What signs did I miss? IF I gave her a second chance what do I control as she no longer kept her phone with her all the time and the evidence shows these things are not tied to texting. Every 2nd chance they get, are these not ctrl-alt-sup and reset to try another way of maintaining contact without being caught?

I worked on myself, did become a better person and father and partner.

TBH I feel like walking out and all I can say is that IHS does in effect NOT work and that working on piecing is harder than anyone gives it credit for but firstly make sure both are piecing.

Peace

Max

[burned]

She asked "what do I need to do to show you that I want to fix this". I didn't answer...as I feel it's not my job to tell her what to do. She needs to figure that out...not do it because I told her. Not sure that's right or not?? But it's what I said.

You should tell her. Do the R2C strong eye contact thing. Put a list together first, have us here review it, then once it’s ready, memorize it. She can’t read your mind on this. And it will be an opportunity to test whether she’s committed. If she balks on any of the terms, it’s just a big giant Nope.

[AnotherStander]

DC, you are getting some great advice, but much more importantly- you are FOLLOWING the advice.
Well done! I know it's not easy as your intuition is probably telling you to do something else, but in dealing with a wayward the "tough love" approach is the only one that works. It's frankly not a lot different than dealing with a drug addict.

She said in her begging this morning that she would commit to NC with the OM. Saying she will block him on social media, phone, blah blah blah. She also volunteered the transparency piece too. I didn't respond to her on that part of the conversation. Like I said before (I think) - I told her words are easy and that she was in bed with OM just hours ago...so I don't believe anything you say.

Exactly right. Someone addicted to heroin is more than happy to swear to give it up within an hour or so of their last hit but those are hollow words indeed. Wait until the withdrawals are in full swing and THEN see what their attitude is, most can think of nothing more than getting another hit no matter what damage it means to their life. It is the same with your W. She is a liar, it goes hand-in-hand with the cheating. So really what she is committing to is to lie about all things great and small to make you think she's "come clean".

She asked "what do I need to do to show you that I want to fix this". I didn't answer...as I feel it's not my job to tell her what to do.

She needs to do the things Sandi said, and she needs to show those things consistently for MONTHS before you should be willing to believe that maybe she's serious. That should be the challenge you pose to her. Give up OM, offer full transparency (give you all social media passwords, access to her phone whenever you want) and show you consistent, changed behavior for 2 or 3 months minimum and THEN you can discuss where to go from there. A wayward who is still a wayward will not accept these terms and will call you controlling and manipulative and accuse you of not having faith and trust (as if they deserve that!) A truly repentant WAS who genuinely wants to save the M will be willing to do this and more though.

[AnotherStander]

How do you react to this. How do trust them again? Can you trust them? How do you make sure you are not fooled again without being over controlling?

She has to EARN your trust. That is the only way it will work. You asked what your mistake was, well it's pretty simple, you trusted her too much too soon. FULL transparency means exactly that. You should have her IG and FB passwords and whatever other social media account passwords she may have. You should have full access to pop in to those accounts whenever you want to verify she's not having contact with any OM. This is NOT "over controlling", it might be in a healthy relationship but yours is not a healthy one. You trusted her and she blew it not once but TWICE. The only way back from that is for her to give up some of her privacy to prove to you that you can trust her again.

[neffer]

AS is headshooting as usual...DC treat W as an addict, I was on that position some time ago. It´s an addiction as powerful as any drug or alcohol. I´m nearly 3 years OW free and still longing for a hit...but I know myself better now. So, besides transparency and commitment, she´ll need some professional help, some IC or similar in the near future.

Keep strong there DC!

[ovrrnbw]

Sandi... great advice and info. I need it.

She has been blowing up my phone all day. I finally replied with "I asked for you to respect me enough to give me time and space this weekend...and you can't even manage that." Then I told her I would not be responding to anything else this weekend and reminded her to leave the house until Monday morning when kids return. She agreed and stopped texting for now. She will be leaving the house soon. I haven't been home all day...and won't be until much later than when she leaves. I had a fun/busy day already planned and I'm doing my best to not allow her to ruin that.

She said in her begging this morning that she would commit to NC with the OM. Saying she will block him on social media, phone, blah blah blah. She also volunteered the transparency piece too. I didn't respond to her on that part of the conversation. Like I said before (I think) - I told her words are easy and that she was in bed with OM just hours ago...so I don't believe anything you say.

She asked "what do I need to do to show you that I want to fix this". I didn't answer...as I feel it's not my job to tell her what to do. She needs to figure that out...not do it because I told her. Not sure that's right or not?? But it's what I said.

I'd reply and say what AS said but what's the point? If you are skeptical, or maybe feel like prolonging this, go read my threads and buckle in for the rollercoaster.

You are doing great. Just stay firm. I was kind of like you, I wanted her to tell me how she would rebuild the trust. I did offer some suggestions though after she gave hers.

[sandi2]

Hi Max, I'll try share my thoughts about the questions you have.

When the WW cries and begs and asks what to do, she wants to be a family again, etc ... How do you know if she really is committed and just doesn't get better at hiding?

Was she crying b/c she was remorseful, or was she crying b/c she was caught and may be losing her family?

I'd first look to see the marital status at the time of the begging/pleading. Was she living with her H? Was she living IHS, or was she physically separated from her H? Did she and her H fully reconcile after she had an A, and did he hold her accountable (transparency) and did she go through affair withdrawals?

Next, I'd check out the timing of when this took place. What was happening that may have brought her to this place? Did she get caught the second time by her H? Did her H get fed up and she sees him walking away for good? Has something caused her eyes to open and now she has gone willingly to her H to humbly apologize and ask for another chance? Has she said she's willing to do whatever it takes to save the M?

I believe there is a difference in a W who is genuinely recovering from waywardness........and one who fakes it. True repentance is a good start, but sometimes a WW can be such a great actress it takes the Almighty to know her heart. So, humans can only evaluate what they observe in her.

IMHO, there are three things that has to line up consistently for a sufficient amount of time. Her words, her behavior, and her attitude. This is the measuring stick to determine if she really wants to be a faithful W and do whatever is necessary to save her M and family. Any woman with enough sense will know that once she's caught, she is on some type of trial basis and should show her best efforts. However, if her head/heart is preoccupied with self and OM, she's going to slip somewhere. It will show in her face/eyes; body language; voice; attitude; the way she responds to her H (and sometimes to her children); refusing to follow the transparency plan; her lack of willingness to do what her H needs/wants; her lack of cooperation with his leadership in the home/family; her lack of respect for her H in front of the children, and/or others; no sexual touching (in some cases) or no open mouth deep kisses (in some cases); her coldness and disinterest in her H/MR. Her true motives are selfish She may be able to fake it for a short period, but not indefinitely. Not if her H knows to watch for these signs. There are other things that might be detected when the W is hiding an A or making contact with her AP. Looking at those things that first caused suspicion when she was in an A.

Throught these past 3 years there were moments I questioned certain incidents but she said i was mistaken and also that that part of her life was a messed up period and she moved on. She even went on to say the OM never contacted her again etc when the subject came up.

A few months ago I discovered by chance she was sending likes to some photos in his instagram account during these past 3 years and vice versa with the occasional text. Not all of the photos but each year at least 3-4 photos which obviously means there was continuous contact. The only non negotiable condition.

Did you require her to follow a transparency plan after the first affair? Were there any MC sessions after her first A? You can't just give a WW another chance without making certain requirements, b/c nothing changes for her. Even if she slacks off contacting OM, she won't go through the process of affair withdrawal, get counseling, have a workable plan for repairing the damage, etc. In other words. she has to work to get her H and MR back again. Otherwise, she's likely to not fully value what she has. It'd be like handing a penny to a spoiled, rich kid. So my question is did she have to do anything uncomfortable in order to keep her H, or were you just too happy to get her back from OM? There is a reason she needs to work to get you.

After calling her out she now says what can she do to make it right, it was a dark moment she fell into and during the summer she began to realize she loved me and wants us to be a family and even move away to another city ot country.

Is she telling you that is why she continued contacting OM....b/c she fell into a dark moment? This is why there needs to be therapy whenever a couple is trying to heal from an A. Whether or not she had a dark moment, you can't have a MR where you are concerned about her next dark moment and what she may choose to do. She needs to become educated in how this works on her emotions, how affairs are addictive, and how affairs play out. She needs to know the reality, instead of her fantasy dreams. There needs to be some type of therapy and follow up program to keep her on track so that she won't fall back into that old behavior. You can't just give another chance, and expect her to have the tools to deal with the emotional fallout of her A, Even if she is quite smart or has a string of letters behind her name, the recovering WW needs to be educated in much the same way as you were educated when you came to the board.

How do you react to this. How do trust them again? Can you trust them?

It depends on what I mentioned in the previous paragraph. Plus, you may not be able to just stop verifying her phone/computer activities. The first time you suspected something didn't measure up, you should have addressed it., You can't accept her claims of being in your head, or whatever. She should either give some type of evidence or at the lest, a detailed account that would explain what happened. The H's biggest mistakes are not making her work to get the MR back; not enforcing a transparency plan; and letting things slide when his gut is telling him something isn't right.

TBH I feel like walking out and all I can say is that IHS does in effect NOT work and that working on piecing is harder than anyone gives it credit for but firstly make sure both are piecing.

I think I see the problem. You can't be IHS and in Piecing simultaneously. Now days, I discourage IHS b/c I've never seen it produce a successful reconciliation with a WW.

I worked on myself, did become a better person and father and partner.

Maybe so, but what did she do, Max? Did she do any work on herself? Did she ever even commit to doing whatever was necessary to save the MR? I have my doubts, if you were still living IHS.

How do you make sure you are not fooled again without being over controlling?

You know that's the battle cry of every WW, don't you? "You just want to control my life!" You start by finding your b@lls and stand up to her and tell her that there will be no more IHS, and if she wants a second chance, she'll have to agree to your terms.......or you are out of there. It's that simple. You start calling the shots, instead of dodging her bullet all the time.

After calling her out she now says what can she do to make it right, it was a dark moment she fell into and during the summer she began to realize she loved me and wants us to be a family and even move away to another city ot country.

Oh really? Did she start sharing your bed? Was she giving you passionate open mouth tongue kisses? If not, then she's lying. At what point did she realize she loved you? Let me guess, when you called her out about contacting OM.

[sandi2]

She asked "what do I need to do to show you that I want to fix this". I didn't answer...as I feel it's not my job to tell her what to do. She needs to figure that out...not do it because I told her.

Actually, you can't trust her to figure it out. Sometimes, they aren't in the right condition to figure it out, especially if she's still thinking like a WW. This is the perfect time to tell her your terms. There can be no contact of any type with OM for the rest of her life. Never! This is nonnegotiable. She blocks everything from him. She can't even like something on on SM. She has to agree to being transparent. She cannot have any secret friendships. The two of you see a therapists who deals with couples healing from an affair.


BTW, don't agree to you being transparent with her (like some crazy H's do, in their attempt to get her to go alone with it). You are the faithful spouse. You are the betrayed spouse here. She is the wayward spouse, and transparency is about her being accountable. If she has a problem with it, rest assured she is not serious about saving the MR.

[Maximus]

Hi Sandi,

In answer to your reply:

Quote #1
We were in IHS and theoretically working on a reconciliation after the initial "problem" 3 years prior. The changes she did do were leave the phone lying around and stuff like that. We "got on" better but we stopped being an affactionate couple for some time prior and during this period did not regain that. She never made any approach to be intimate in any way and when confronted said was waiting for me to make the move. Something I could not understand as I told her that she was the one who took one step back from our MR and was supposed to be working on it. She was never one to go out much and tbh it seems more an EA turned friendship as her hours away from home were generally accounted for.

Yes, I caught her out still in contact via Instagram with OM and after arriving from a business trip (where I found out) I left home to a friend's house for a month and returned only for the xmas period and to present the end of year accounts. During that she ocassionally sent texts to which I replied leisurely or at all. One Sunday morning she rang early crying saying she could not go on any longer like that and that we should work it out, she wanted me back, wanted to be a family, etc etc. The same day I arrived she wanted to discuss where we stood, what was my mind frame and attitude, if one where she could kiss me or not physical contact. I told her none until we discussed this more. These weeks she has made no further approach and things look like they were during that period where again we "got along". What she does not know is that I am finishing my work here and will leave for a time out again.

TBH I think my mistake was thinking that giving her space, accepting her apology the first time those years ago and moving on trying to make things better obviously did not work as she maintained contact at least provabkle via instagram though I would not leave it at that. I think it is obvious she did not withdraw.

Our S and her parents know about what happened last time so if this comes to light again and I walk out I imagine that all eyes will be on her as the one who threw it all away.

Quote #2
We did no MC and transparency plan was never effected as she left phone lying around and often gave it to me to update software or install apps. Her tight control on the phone did change. We are not ones to go out much and most of the times they are accounted for or proven to be true. One big mistake that I admit I did make and should have insisted was leaving the gim where OM goes to. One of her comments now proving she is changing is that during summer she left the gym (true) and this sudden change of mind frame. She also stopped talking to her closest friend apparently because her friend wanted to maintain friendship with OM and she wanted to cut ties. TBH I have a feeling something happened around the summer because there were a lot of sudden changes and normally it is because of a single event that triggers it. had it been her desire I think there would have been gradual changes before. I dont know, in my view it seems "fishy".

Quote #3
Yes, she is blaming the dark period for many of the mistakes she made including contact with OM.

Quote#4
With each incident I did enquire and she did have an answer. What I did not do is extensive fact checking just questons to see how she reacted and excuses she would give.

Quote#5
I fully agree. IHS makes it difficult to implement so many things. That is why now I left and planning on leaving. I gave her 3 years now I need my own time.

Quote#6
If she maintained contact or sent like to his instagram then obviously she was not working on our MR.

Quote#7
Understood.

Quote#8
When we had problem #1 I moved out of the MBR. After coming onto the site and reading I had to haul my ass back in I did. It was battle that eventually played itself out and she accepted it. She never left so we were always sharing since then. No open mouth kisses and tbh have not had any for a very long time. Her family is not the hugging and kissing type and she is not really the most affectionate or touchy partner you can have. Which is also part of the problem. I see friends with their wives or people I meet in social events due to work and see their interaction with GF or wives and miss that type of relationship and have a feeling now matter how we patch things up. Our R will never be like those. She supposedly realized she wanted to change things around the summer. This she told me when I called her out.

Peace

Max

[JujuB]

Sorry about hijacking... maximus, i wanted to say hi. I used to post on here as Julieh and i recognize your name and situation. I remember you even gave advice on waywards that were only children. Back in 2015 you seemed to be piecing. I remember physical intimacy was a problem back then. We had talked about her being really into the gym and needing more verbal love language stuff. Lots of hurt feelings on both sides. Anyway. Im sorry your still here roller coastering. Do u have a thread?

[sandi2]

Hey DC, I sure would like to hear from you. Hope you are doing okay.