Old thread.For those following along, it has been a wacky week. On Friday we had a fun debate about WW's manipulation. There was a suggestion that I "take back the house" like a friggin' Blue Wave (American political joke, sorry). I said "No" to WW for the first time, thereby beginning to "cut her off" financially. She said, OK, then let's move this paperwork right along. Your move, WW.
Earlier today we talked about R timelines. Check out the one from AnotherStander that will probably be copied and pasted into every cobweb-filled corner of this board. Glad to instigate that.
And today WW texts me wishing me a happy holiday.
For those just joining us, nothing special here. WW in PA beginning a year ago, confronted her in April, physical S began in June (I stupidly moved out), "real" BD 8/31/18, W is now "preparing paperwork" for what she thinks will be the world's easiest D. I have been almost completely dark for 2 months and we last saw each other FTF back in mid-September.
Is it within the confines of DB to respond, "Go pork yourself?"
As satisfying as it would be to say that...no. That's not DBing...that's just sinking down to her level. You're better than her.
Am I not keeping the road home paved smooth by being polite on special occasions? I mean, if I'm treating her like a cashier or a nosy neighbor, I'd still say something nice in return. Or does that only apply to the WAW?
She said, OK, then let's move this paperwork right along. Your move, WW.
Pain18, since we're both into song lyrics... ^^^^^Sublime, What I Got: "Try and test that, you're bound to get served."
Am I not keeping the road home paved smooth by being polite on special occasions? I mean, if I'm treating her like a cashier or a nosy neighbor, I'd still say something nice in return. Or does that only apply to the WAW?
No, keeping the road home paved and smooth does not mean you pave it with gold bricks.
You will not nice her back into the relationship.
So, just continued radio silence? She’ll use it against me later...is what I’d worry about if she wasn’t a WW.
So, just continued radio silence? She’ll use it against me later...is what I’d worry about if she wasn’t a WW.
Does it really f*cking matter what she thinks? Because I can be pretty certain, she does not care much about what you think.
Radio silence/no contact is really more about giving yourself space and distance to get clarity and begin to heal. Think of it as circling the wagons around yourself and becoming a high value man that does not want to interact with someone that wants nothing to do with you. Early on the only contact I had with my xw was during 5 min kid exchanges. Sure I saw her but I never inquired about what she was doing, who she was talking to or how she was spending her spare time. It hurt like hell but it was the right thing to do. You wouldn’t touch a burning stone would you????????
Hey burn,
Thank you for dropping some support on my sitch and sorry to hear of yours.
I've been reading up on your sitch, and am I right in that you were wanting to move back in? Do you still want to move back in (with her?) or to reclaim the house and have her leave (whether its on her own accord or some type of forcing out)? You said you have a 2 year lease? SO currently paying for the mortgage and rent?
Can you enlighten me on why it's important to not move out or that we should be the ones staying and they move out? What are the implications?
I read of your concern if she got really foul and started claiming being in danger. That's crazy to deal with and feels in and of itself controlling. Just sounds like she has that one up and to combat it, you would need cameras everywhere you go. Very tough sitch, and I definitely wouldn't want to test that. FWIW, my WW, I think, has told one of her sisters her "version" of why she wants the D and that because I got to tearing stuff up she was fearful for her life, yet she, the WW, is cool with us in an IHS. Crazy...
When I look back, I am grateful I am here as crazy as it sounds. WW and I had a lot of problems in the past and we haven't been able to talk about them yet but finally now after BD, at ground zero, this is the beginning. I would not turn back time to live the way I had been, feeling so miserable WITH her in the MR, and not knowing of A. I know it sounds weird and crazy and it doesn't stop the hurting, I get that, but you aren't alone and this definitely is not the end. D is not the end, the day after that is not, it doesn't even end when you say it, feel it, or think it.
I'm a little jelly(maybe envious?) that you have a night out with some people. I've yet to get that going. I hope it helps you detach and DB. I saw you were having problems with that, if I can be honest, like you had not accepted it at face value. I saw you mentioned you were overthinking things sometime and people have told you not to. You've even said it in my post. You are right, I do overthink things too. You see yourself better in other people. You can see where I am like you and you can point it out easily. I appreciate and value that. Like has been said, people have been there in our shoes. Trust the detaching. I've only begun but I'm going at it with the beginner's mind. To further explain, you listed your to dos and some of the goals. When that was explained to you in detail in a way you got it, it made sense to you and you seemed like you were going to give it more thought and work on it. Same with detaching, giving her space, not caring what she does or does not do(text or no text). Don't get triggered by those texts since its currently your only line one way in and one way out. I can imagine bottling up feelings and then the first chance you get, it can go sideways fast.
Pain18 hit the nail on the head with above comment.
Fill up your days with things that matter to you. When I'm at work, my mind races with everything about her. I promised myself one day I will get to a point when I am at work that I would not think of her for the whole day, as if it was 5 months ago when we would argue and I didn't think about her all day. How crazy is that? How much have I taken her for granted that when we did argue in a salvageable, working relationship, I made no effort to put thought into it, but when I'm hurt, the victim, I can't seem to shake her from my thoughts. We need to free ourselves and them. And when I was placing puzzle pieces with my son, who later left me to do the whole thing by myself, I was calm and at piece. I didn't think of her. I looked at this huge jigsaw taking my time finding where every piece went, slowly, one at a time. Maybe it's the introvert in me and I do better alone. I don't know.. just sharing, so hope you don't mind.
Have a great holiday.
Burn - apologies I am going to hijack your thread for a minute and try and (in as much as I understand it) respond to Adam's question ..
Can you enlighten me on why it's important to not move out or that we should be the ones staying and they move out? What are the implications?
I have not read your sitch (I will try and catch up today) so am not sure if your W has MO or not.
Personally, I think the answer to your question is that it is partly about making a stance. It says in no uncertain terms, "You are the one bailing out of the M and this M includes our home - I am staying put". 1. MO is a tangible consequence of their actions and 2, it shows the WW that you are not some broken thing that they can continue to manipulate and bully into doing whatever they want. They are in la la land where they get to live in their home and there are no financial or emotional consequences for them.
Sandi puts it much better than I but ultimately the WW will have more respect for you. A woman cannot be attracted to that which she does not respect. More importantly though, you will have more respect for you.
Having said all that, an IHS is hell. They will bait you and try and manipulate you at every opportunity. They will force you to doubt yourself and everything you stand for. I imagine some of this baiting may be to try and get you to say something or do something that they can use to force you out of the house. I have read (I can't remember the thread of a WW trying to use sex to get her H to move out). Without the tools here - 180, detaching, GAL - an IHS is almost impossible to get through with your self-esteem and sense of worth intact. I know, I did it for 6 months (before I discovered this site) and my self esteem was in tatters. I was only able to start rebuilding once he MO.
I read of your concern if she got really foul and started claiming being in danger. That's crazy to deal with and feels in and of itself controlling. Just sounds like she has that one up and to combat it, you would need cameras everywhere you go. Very tough sitch, and I definitely wouldn't want to test that. FWIW, my WW, I think, has told one of her sisters her "version" of why she wants the D and that because I got to tearing stuff up she was fearful for her life, yet she, the WW, is cool with us in an IHS. Crazy...
^^^ see my comment above ^^^
When I look back, I am grateful I am here as crazy as it sounds. WW and I had a lot of problems in the past and we haven't been able to talk about them yet but finally now after BD, at ground zero, this is the beginning. I would not turn back time to live the way I had been, feeling so miserable WITH her in the MR, and not knowing of A. I know it sounds weird and crazy and it doesn't stop the hurting, I get that, but you aren't alone and this definitely is not the end. D is not the end, the day after that is not, it doesn't even end when you say it, feel it, or think it.
I second both statements in the above. D is not the end and I too would not go back to my MR. Our problems started to surface 6 months before BD and I kept quiet about them in favour of keeping the peace. He only resented me more (unemotional, cold). We (H and I) have a long road ahead of us if we R'd.
I'm a little jelly(maybe envious?) that you have a night out with some people. I've yet to get that going. I hope it helps you detach and DB.
Adam - you will get there. And yes, it does help you detach and Db. At first it will feel forced, like you are out in body but not in spirit. Your W will still invade your thoughts. And then day, after GAL'g, you will go to bed and realise you have not thought of her for hours. That is when you will know it is working.
How much have I taken her for granted that when we did argue in a salvageable, working relationship, I made no effort to put thought into it, but when I'm hurt, the victim, I can't seem to shake her from my thoughts ... We need to free ourselves and them.
It is good that you can see this. I was the same. We would argue in the car in the morning (he would argue, I would sit there and take it) and when I got out of the car I would think "controlling [censored]" and then not think about it for the rest of the day. Now, when he drops me off (as he still frequently does) I dissect every element of the interaction and obsess over every word.
So, what I am saying is that this is normal and the fact that you can recognize that you took her for granted means that you are moving towards acceptance - acceptance of your share of the responsibility for the things that were wrong in the marriage. Like I said to B - knowledge of what you did wrong does not justify her actions, but it takes you a step closer to understanding them.
And when I was placing puzzle pieces with my son, who later left me to do the whole thing by myself, I was calm and at piece. I didn't think of her. I looked at this huge jigsaw taking my time finding where every piece went, slowly, one at a time. Maybe it's the introvert in me and I do better alone. I don't know.. just sharing, so hope you don't mind.
I find these are the best GAL'g activities. We now have a ritual in the evening. When dinner and homework and bedtime baths are done, we watch TV in the big room with the fire on and the lights down. I snuggle under a blanket with D9 and D12 sits on the other sofa. Sometimes I think to myself, why didn't we do this when H was here ... back to the things you take for granted ...
If you seek legal advice the top mistake that men make is moving out.
So that is another important reason besides that moving out is a nice guy trait.
Cadet - why is that?
Both my H and I were told that when we went (separately) for legal advice. Mine said it as I was walking out “Oh, and whatever you do, stay in the marital home”. I didn’t have the sense at the time to ask (I think I was crying uncontrollably). My H told me in one of our pre MO arguments “I’m not going anywhere, my lawyer told me not to MO”.
Because the other spuse could claim abandonment.
Because the other spuse could claim abandonment.
And if there are children involved it can hurt you in custody
Thanks both. That’s what I thought it was.
I am sure H is aware of those implications and just hoping that my NG tendencies means I won’t argue either abondonment or fight him on custody. He is correct on the former, but he seriously underestimates me if he thinks I wont use everything in my arsenal when it comes to custody of my kids. Rant over.
B - apologies again for hijacking your thread.
Wow, a lot going on here. I'll see what I can add.
I've been reading up on your sitch, and am I right in that you were wanting to move back in? Do you still want to move back in (with her?) or to reclaim the house and have her leave (whether its on her own accord or some type of forcing out)? You said you have a 2 year lease? SO currently paying for the mortgage and rent?
I put this one on ice until I can talk to L next week. Basically, it's something I would do FOR ME. I could break the lease, I figure absolute worst-case scenario I'd be out 5 grand. Small price to pay to keep my beloved W but then again I'm pretty loose with money (probably part of why I'm in this sitch). I would do it FOR ME because I like it there, despite the fact that she has already made the house look like I was never there. It would be a process and I'm told it's a bad idea, so I'm still contemplating it. It would give me some confidence. It would send an overwhelmingly powerful message to her that I should have sent months ago, but as we know, doing things to influence her shouldn't be the primary motivation. Etc.[/quote]
Can you enlighten me on why it's important to not move out or that we should be the ones staying and they move out? What are the implications?
The posts below answered that, I think. And after reading them I looked for the laws in my state and yes, if accused and convicted of desertion I could go to jail (prison?) for 2 years, or pay a fine which is much more likely. We don't have kids so I haven't worried about custody implications but apparently that's a thing too. At this point it's another reason why I personally might go BACK to the house, because I'm starting to cut her off financially and I am the primary income earner and I suppose she could claim desertion. NGS makes me think, "Crap, I did a bad thing and she's mad and I'm going to be in big big trouble." Then I sit down and think, wait a minute, she cheated, she kept the house, I kept paying the mortgage and utilities and let her use the CC and she has her own (small) income and a big pile of cash she set aside. For 5 months already. Go ahead and TRY to convince a judge that that's desertion.
At any rate, there's a lot to think about. Another thing I just came up with while I was getting more coffee: the house is a huge, illiquid albatross, yet she's willing to keep it in the D. I'd have to buy her out with "cash" (retirement, investments, etc.) and I'd basically have nothing left to work with. And I'd have to do all the crap work of fixing it up and selling it.
FWIW, my WW, I think, has told one of her sisters her "version" of why she wants the D and that because I got to tearing stuff up she was fearful for her life, yet she, the WW, is cool with us in an IHS. Crazy...
Yeah, crazy. I tore up photos, smashed things, punched a hole in the wall. She came back "for good" a few days later, I had cleaned the house and patched the holes and all that. We were good for 2 months. Guess when she decided that my behaviors weren't to her liking? After she wanted to go back to OM and needed a reason.
When I look back, I am grateful I am here as crazy as it sounds. WW and I had a lot of problems in the past and we haven't been able to talk about them yet but finally now after BD, at ground zero, this is the beginning. I would not turn back time to live the way I had been, feeling so miserable WITH her in the MR, and not knowing of A. I know it sounds weird and crazy and it doesn't stop the hurting, I get that, but you aren't alone and this definitely is not the end. D is not the end, the day after that is not, it doesn't even end when you say it, feel it, or think it.
I wish I had your optimism about R after D. We'll see. As for the other stuff, that's exactly what keeps me going. If she would give me this last chance, and we both now know what the problems are, and we both actually talk about them (this is something that happened the day after BD and possibly contributed to our "false reconciliation" that lasted until end of May)...then it could be really, really good. First I have to earn that chance. Then she has to earn her chance from me. It's so very, very unlikely.
How much have I taken her for granted that when we did argue in a salvageable, working relationship, I made no effort to put thought into it, but when I'm hurt, the victim, I can't seem to shake her from my thoughts.
I've had those moments. They're awful. But that was before there was an A. This isn't a sitch in which you just need a little tweaking. There's a massive, possibly irreparable rift. Again, you're more optimistic. Good, hold onto that as long as you can. But don't let it get in the way of seeing the reality of the terrible thing she did. That's partly how you'll get your b@lls back.
Happy Thanksgiving!
Thanks Vapo, Cadet, FlySolo, and Burned for dropping the knowledge. I haven't thought about abandonment. I thought the judge would maybe say something about the apartment not accommodating 2 kids if I moved out or judge may try to address the reason for the separation or D, but I haven't dug into the reality and truth of what really happens.. I need to, I need to get with some lawyers and get the facts.
I get it now that the home is part of the M and part of the stance, she chose to bring that into the home, she can take it out and go with it as well.
FlySolo, I'll need to read up on your sitch. I wonder how you transitioned to finally have that talk with him to MO. MY WW has denied denied denied anything has been going on with AP. I'll try to see tonight if I can post.
Burned, I hope my optimism never goes away even during the darkest of times. Truthfully I haven't taken stock in how I was coming across because I do still feel the pain inside, been trying to vaporize it is probably how I can best describe how I want to deal with it. I was hoping to be somewhat cheerful and supportive, even happy, but I'll take optimistic. I have said before, expect the worst, but hope for the best.
Religion can be a very touchy subject to some, and by no means am I a practicing, devout Christian. However, I do try to draw inner strength based on faith. It's not just blind faith, but also a choice with some influence based on my past. Maybe it'll rub off, who knows really. I can tell you this much, I do not want front row seats sitting next to WW on her rollercoaster ride.
If I had a choice to feel something or dwell in a space, I ask myself what would that be like or feel like. I choose happy and I don't mean unicorns, cotton candy, rainbows and all that. No living in lala land thinking this would magically go away and the old or new her would be waiting for me. I have a bad poker face, really bad. I can't fake pretend to be happy when something is eating me inside so I'd usually have this quirky smirk, this half sided smile with a bit of disdain thrown in for flavor. I want to actually be happy and not fake pretend. So I'm choosing to be happy, control me and my emotions and hey maybe it's working if you can see it, people at work can see it, maybe the W can see it. She's been around checking but I'm not doing it for her. It feels good to not do stuff for her.
With our IHS, I've left dishes in the sink, she can clean them. I've come home late and she's fed and bathed the boys. I'm dong more, but not everything. I leave stuff to see what she does. She does her share of the chores and doesn't complain. Sometimes I think because we haven't complained that something needs to be forced... but then why should I care. just a fleeting thought.
As for NGS blinding me from not being able to see how terrible the sitch is? I know what you mean, sometimes it can be irreparable if both parties are not ready. I am a firm believer if both parties can put in the required work, its repairable... but, I'm not even ready... I don't want the old guy(this shell I am living in) to be with anyone. Wouldn't be fair and I would be setting myself up and hurting two people again. I've seen some people bounce back from this quickly. Split, D, Rebound and no problem. Are these strong people for doing that? I don't know. I've seen men and women with 4-5 kids on dad #3 or wife#4 go through life replacing other people. So going back, while I'm working on me, I have my guard up. I'm never going to let anyone as deceiving like that be able to make me feel the pain I've felt within the last 3 months. I've walled myself up before and I can do it again. I won't allow her to invade my circle, not this version of her. Not this confused, hurtful person. I'm not going to rationalize with an irrational person trying to see if she can determine how much hurt she has caused me. Trying to get her to notice me.
She does have to atone for what she did/is doing, no doubt about it. It'll happen whether I have a direct play in it or not, she'll have to face her demons. I shouldn't care if I have front row tickets to that show.
I've been so angry that I wanted to spite her and have her deal with taking care of the kids alone because of the hurt she caused me. I wanted to move out and show her how everyone was going to struggle because of her. I woke up from that. Ashamed from it really. Do I think she would even care? No... hard reality check so guess what? This optimism? It's trying to be this care-free I don't give a you know what. I've cried less and less for what its worth. The last time was about 2 weeks ago I had one sob into the pillow where I said to myself "I'm lonely" and then that was it, there was no one to pick me up, to talk to me, to make it feel better. It was up to me. So yeah I'll have my days where I'm not centered, but when I do get centered, it's not off on some wild end of the spectrum if you know what I mean.
I'm rooting for you to take back what's yours. ALL OF IT. NOT just the house.
I'm rooting for you to take back what's yours. ALL OF IT. NOT just the house.
I don’t know why, but this made me smile. I’m curious what you meant, though.
Good morning all,
Overnight temperature was below zero Fahrenheit where I live. Plus the full moon. Seasonal songs blasting from every speaker in every store. Winter has begun.
I kept myself occupied yesterday posting all over the place so it's not like I need to bump my thread to get attention. :P
Posting all over the place helped, though, because I felt like I was giving myself advice. And I noticed that I can be a lot "harsher" or more direct with other people than I can be with myself.
W texted on Wednesday to wish me a nice holiday. I did not respond. It makes me extremely nervous, but whatever. For a while I felt good about myself, that I was treating myself like a high-value person who doesn't accept crumbs from a person who is clearly working as hard as she can to remove me from her life. I thought I'd have much more trouble coping with the idea that she is at her parents' enjoying my favorite holiday without me. But I focused on my own strength in resisting that and resisting her. So it helped.
I had dinner with the two families who were our closest friends (I got to keep them in the S). It was obvious who was missing, but they didn't make a thing of it. We had a good time. I was a bit melancholy at times; it came and went but mostly went. I wonder if W felt the same empty space next to her as I did. I don't know that that would make any difference, but who knows.
Reading about other people who are so certain that D is imminent, as am I. Well, it ain't over till it's over. Even after D process begins. I still lull myself to sleep thinking that there's movement behind the scenes. Maybe it's spending time with her family. Maybe it's a gradual realization that the D won't be as easy as she anticipates. Maybe it's my ability to deprive her entirely of any satisfaction she gets from sending me pointless happy holidays text messages. There's still the idea that I could move back into the house with my b@lls swinging proudly in front of me. I dunno. I tell myself that there's still some kind of hope. Maybe that sets me back by keeping the fantasy alive? No idea.
Thank you to the people who have kept me accountable for my actions in terms of not responding to her. I also really appreciate the things people have said about D is not the end and it's never guaranteed and lots of people come around later, and she doubts herself, and she will realize what she's losing when she's awake alone at night and I've been consistently not giving in to her. I so badly wish that any of that were true. I'm an optimist by nature but a pessimist by upbringing, so I fight with that dichotomy from moment to moment.
Reading a really inspiring book called 12 Rules for Life by Jordan Peterson. It's not at all a self-help book. It's a super nerdy psychology book that is all about living a Good life based on good values, strong actions, and the big R word that I'm told is my #1 problem in life: Responsibility. I've been given an opportunity to grow up, to become conscious, to live a responsible adult life. Stuff like that.
But I so very badly want to hold her in my arms. Not because of the old M we had, which was just quite terrible for both of us (especially for her). But because she is a Person who can be redeemed and who I love so very much. A new M with her would be pretty neat, assuming she adapts to it. At this point I feel like I'm setting the groundwork of becoming a much better person. But I definitely need more time to solidify things.
I guess what I'm getting better at is setting the thoughts/feelings aside and focusing on actions that don't make any sense to me at all but seem to be recommended by everyone. I'd be a jack@ss to ignore that kind of consistently universal advice.
Hey B - we do live in different parts of the world. It is nearing dinner time where I am though it is also ridiculously cold here. My H still has control of the heating in the house. I must really speak to him about that ...
Posting all over the place helped, though, because I felt like I was giving myself advice. And I noticed that I can be a lot "harsher" or more direct with other people than I can be with myself.
This is partly why I do it. It is like giving advice to myself. It is far easier to look at someone else's sitch objectively then to look at our own. When I said read through your thread, I meant read through it like you were an outsider looking in. Once you take the emotion away and the inevitable mind reading that goes a long with those emotions, then you start to see just the actions and the patterns in the actions. I know that my thread is full of mundane daily interactions with my H (mostly because I see him everyday) and my dissecting of those interactions. I hope by journaling that I will be able to devoid the interactions of the emotion and just see the patterns. That's the hope anyway. Not gotten there so far because each day seems to be groundhog.
W texted on Wednesday to wish me a nice holiday. I did not respond. It makes me extremely nervous, but whatever. For a while I felt good about myself, that I was treating myself like a high-value person who doesn't accept crumbs from a person who is clearly working as hard as she can to remove me from her life.
She sent it because she is in la la land where everyone can get on and be friends and it will be rainbows and unicorns for as far as the eyes can see. It is also so she stays in your head ... thereby putting you firmly in your place, rolling over and playing nice and waiting in the background as Plan B.
But, should you have responded ... well, you have to act and live according to your values. It is too late now, but if she sends you a text wishing you a happy birthday or something similar, then make your choice based on what you think is the right thing to do. If you want to respond, respond. Just do it in a detached manner. "Thank you. You too". No proclamations of love, no kisses, no trying to extend the conversation and most importantly, no expectations. If you don't want to respond because you think any interaction with her stalls your healing progress, then don't respond. But don't do it, or not do it, to get some type of reaction from her. Her reaction is not important.
I had dinner with the two families who were our closest friends (I got to keep them in the S). It was obvious who was missing, but they didn't make a thing of it. We had a good time. I was a bit melancholy at times; it came and went but mostly went. I wonder if W felt the same empty space next to her as I did. I don't know that that would make any difference, but who knows.
Not that it should matter, but she would have noticed your absence. It would have been impossible not to. The ghost of you would have been everywhere. Once it becomes the new normal, then the ghost will fade. It is the new normal that I fear.
Reading about other people who are so certain that D is imminent, as am I. Well, it ain't over till it's over. Even after D process begins. I still lull myself to sleep thinking that there's movement behind the scenes. Maybe it's spending time with her family. Maybe it's a gradual realization that the D won't be as easy as she anticipates. Maybe it's my ability to deprive her entirely of any satisfaction she gets from sending me pointless happy holidays text messages. There's still the idea that I could move back into the house with my b@lls swinging proudly in front of me. I dunno. I tell myself that there's still some kind of hope. Maybe that sets me back by keeping the fantasy alive? No idea.
As hard as it is to do, you need to let her go. This does not mean losing hope. No-one can give it to you and no-one can take it away. Hope comes from within. It dies when you have had enough and I seriously doubt you will even know it. One day you will know that you have let go. It might be that you haven't thought of her in a while, or it might be that you find yourself not bothering to update your own thread, but instead, offering advice and counsel to the next generation of newbies. Either way hope will extinguish quietly. No grand announcements. Like a long lost but loved relative dying in their sleep.
But, as you said, it is much easier to give advice then to take it.
I also really appreciate the things people have said about D is not the end and it's never guaranteed and lots of people come around later, and she doubts herself, and she will realize what she's losing when she's awake alone at night and I've been consistently not giving in to her. I so badly wish that any of that were true. I'm an optimist by nature but a pessimist by upbringing, so I fight with that dichotomy from moment to moment.
This is all true. However regret does not beget action. There are a lot of factors that need to be in place in order for them to come back. The most important of which is will you still be standing. From what I can see, more often than not, most of us aren't.
I so very badly want to hold her in my arms. Not because of the old M we had, which was just quite terrible for both of us (especially for her). But because she is a Person who can be redeemed and who I love so very much. A new M with her would be pretty neat, assuming she adapts to it. At this point I feel like I'm setting the groundwork of becoming a much better person. But I definitely need more time to solidify things.
Ahhh ... I can hear your pain. I know this pain. I meditate daily. Sometimes my meditation is on healing, sometimes it is on letting go, sometimes (and I am ashamed to admit it) it is sending my energies to him, to remind him I am here, still waiting for him. I don't know how much faith I have in being able to send energies to another person. But I do it anyway.
Last thing, you guys really talk about the size of your b@lls ALOT
we do live in different parts of the world
I assume you're in the UK, although you mentioned something about golden beaches in your place of origin, so that's inconsistent.
She sent it because she is in la la land where everyone can get on and be friends and it will be rainbows and unicorns for as far as the eyes can see. It is also so she stays in your head ... thereby putting you firmly in your place, rolling over and playing nice and waiting in the background as Plan B.
Here's one that has consistently baffled me, even as I've explained it to others who expressed the same bafflement. Some people will say that "deep down" she feels a need to have me as a plan B. The rolling over and playing nice I understand, because she has a goal in mind and wants me to interfere with that goal as little as possible. But as for why it makes any difference to her whether she is in my head or not...sure, maybe for HER, so that SHE feels that I still think of her as a decent person, because she doubts her own decency (as she should). It's just all very confusing and I don't know that I will ever understand it. What I DO understand is that when I catch myself thinking, "Hooray, at least I'm still plan B," I'm making a very dangerous error.
If you don't want to respond because you think any interaction with her stalls your healing progress, then don't respond. But don't do it, or not do it, to get some type of reaction from her. Her reaction is not important.
And here's another confusing one. Are a person's motivations ever singular in purpose? I would say that my goal in not responding was primarily to get a reaction from MYSELF. But of course I am not detached enough to stop myself from wondering how it affects her. Will she be offended that the person she betrayed would deign not to be minimally civil? Or is she sitting there thinking, What ever did I do wrong that he wouldn't respond to me the way he always does? Or both? Or neither? I know, it doesn't matter. Like I said, I got a little confidence boost from the realization that I have a choice in the matter and that I'm not obligated to be polite to someone who did what she did to me.
However regret does not beget action. There are a lot of factors that need to be in place in order for them to come back. The most important of which is will you still be standing. From what I can see, more often than not, most of us aren't.
Same think my dear mother always says. "Burned, she is probably struggling almost as much as you are. But that won't make her come back." She and I are both suffering in the present with the hope that this will result in a better future. We just have different ideas about what constitutes the better future. Or at least, she has an idea. I apparently don't, except "go back to what I had." And we all know where that mentality leads.
As to the question of whether I will still be standing. That one gets me. In my present state, the idea that I would EVER not be at least partially receptive to the idea of reconciliation is so alien to me. But that's my present state. I had an unpleasant conversation last night with my friends about how much harder it is to meet people at age 35 as compared to age 20 (when W and I met, via a network of mutual friends), and how long it might be before I find someone, and how many people I will have to sort through before finding a decent one...and yet I wonder how much easier it would be to "let her go" if I had a plan A so that I could relegate W to the position of plan B.
Ahhh ... I can hear your pain. I know this pain. I meditate daily. Sometimes my meditation is on healing, sometimes it is on letting go, sometimes (and I am ashamed to admit it) it is sending my energies to him, to remind him I am here, still waiting for him. I don't know how much faith I have in being able to send energies to another person. But I do it anyway.
I don't meditate but every once in a while I just speak out loud (since I live alone). I say, "W, it's OK, I'm still here for you." Does that help me or hurt me? I don't know. It helps me fall asleep. (As for meditation, I read about a practice called Tongglen that involves breathing in the suffering of others and breathing out relief to them.)
Last thing, you guys really talk about the size of your b@lls ALOT
Not going to apologize for this one. But I do appreciate having a woman's perspective on my sitch. It seems like some of these threads remain relatively well segregated by gender, but we have a lot to learn from each other.
I kept myself occupied yesterday posting all over the place so it's not like I need to bump my thread to get attention. :P
Posting all over the place helped, though, because I felt like I was giving myself advice. And I noticed that I can be a lot "harsher" or more direct with other people than I can be with myself.
I'd like to especially thank you for the support you gave me yesterday! Please know it was valued and really made me feel so much better and connected to others. You really helped my day.
I had dinner with the two families who were our closest friends (I got to keep them in the S). It was obvious who was missing, but they didn't make a thing of it. We had a good time.
Can we just take a moment and say how amazing this kind of friend is? It's great to have friends willing to listen and talk through all the drama in our lives, but sometimes it's just SO NICE to sit and have a normal visit with friends who treat us like we always have been. For me, this is my brother and future sis-in-law. Our normal visits are just a saving grace for me. Let's give thanks to these people!
I tell myself that there's still some kind of hope. Maybe that sets me back by keeping the fantasy alive? No idea.
I am at this place too. I want to move through this in a healthy, happy way. I want to process what I need to process. But hope is such a comfort, and I need it sometimes. But does it set us back in our moving forward? I just got back from IC, and my therapist said that it's okay (they always say it's okay) and that it's just where I am in my process and that it takes a bit for our emotions to catch up to the situation sometimes.
I live in the UK but I am Australian. I came here on a gap year (of sorts), met my H and stayed.
Good catch on the inconsistency though
Also, being Australian, I am not easily offended ... so talk about your nether regions to your hearts content. It was just an observation.
Neat! I have an “uncle” (mother’s stepbrother) who is a MP in Perth, I think. He keeps telling me I should visit. But 20 hours in the air doesn’t appeal to me, as someone with a flying phobia...
Perth is NOT Australia - It is pretty much Britain but with sunshine, beaches and good food.
I don’t know why, but this made me smile. I’m curious what you meant, though.
Referencing the house of course, her, your b4lls, your peace of mind, your happiness, or anything you want and are willing to work towards.
I can't offer expert advice being a greenhorn, but I hope from sharing my story and relating that it provides support in some ways, whether it can be uplifting or just empathizing saying I've been there too.
Don't ask me why I am going to reference a Dennis Quaid movie here, but I am..
Did you see A Dog's Purpose? Most likely not, but sometimes things come around full circle and when they do, like the message here, it gets better the second time. if you ever watch the movie, don't say its because I recommended it(I watched it with my kids who left the room after 5 minutes, LOL), but if you ever watch it, consider the two stories there.
-snipped-
I took a break from being too wordy and making everything long winded. I started reading your post and the responses. I like the space you are in when you posted after my previous post. I took the break to read the replies after your post and agreed, agreed, agreed. I like the comment that regrets don't beget actions, and when they do, will you still be standing. I was typing the above before I read FlySolo's reply and went aww hell, let me just save burned an hour or two of reading, and then delete my 10s of paragraphs,
FlySolo responded and said what I would have said so much better and with less words. Stay on track with what you are doing, because others can peer in and tell you that, if you are thinking too much into it, it clearly still affects you.
I really like the dialogue from the previous posts above this.
Just wanted to end this saying I found it inspiring today to read your posts and the replies.
Was working on a long dreary post but I’ll save that for later/never. Not feeling great today, so just a lot of moping.
In the meantime W texted (I never did respond to her happy thanksgiving text), saying she got the mortgage bill and is paying it from the shared account, and she got the water bill and asked if she could pay it from the shared account also.
I’m putting these here so that you all will hold me accountable. My excuse is that I wasn’t fully awake yet. So I responded in my habitual way. I thought very carefully about HOW to respond but neglected to take the time to think about WHAT. So I said, Yes, thank you.
SMH.
Then she said, I hope you had a nice vacation.
I’m struggling to figure out how I can feel two different feelings at the same time: “I miss you and I don’t want to let go” and also “You’re a pain in my rear, you confuse me and make me doubt my own sanity and sense of self-worth, and I wish I never had to talk to you again.
Maybe it would be better if you shifted your communication to email. That way it isn’t quite so “urgent” feeling. I still dislike getting messages from my XW, but at least with email, I don’t feel “on the hook” to reply so quickly. It’s also much easier to compile a bunch of thoughts/issues together in one message vs. in like 5 different text streams.
That’s a good idea. Although since I essentially never contact first, I respond via whatever method she chooses, and that’s almost always texting.
And it doesn’t solve the problem that I am avoiding, which is that I need to buckle down and do the hard work of creating a permanent solution so that she doesn’t have to ask me each time. Trying to schedule a meeting with L this week so I know what I can’t/shouldn’t do, and then I will have to clench my teeth and just do it.
I’m just trying to summon a bit of courage. It’s hard.
B - is your pay still going into the shared account? Can you have it paid into a different account and just top up the shared account as and when necessary?
That’s the arrangement I’ve been encouraged to set up. I will. But here’s the problem as I see it. She is very thrifty and not at all prone to wild spending (that’s my role). I know that WWs are unpredictable but based on her past behavior, before and after BD, I have no reason to suspect that she will spend much beyond what I have tacitly allowed. Therefore it becomes a power struggle, the way she turns just about everything into a power struggle (maybe without realizing it). It becomes a test of my resolve to stand up to her. Almost like she is daring me. She has done things like this before, and I’ve never seen them for what they are until it’s too late. In fact if my current understanding is correct, at one point (when I discovered she had returned to OM) she asked “What are you going to do about it?” And stared directly at me with a fairly aggressive look in her eyes. I said, “Nothing, you told me I can’t control you.” And now after reading all these books and posts here about how women sometimes test their men to see how strong they are, and I took the approach of trying not to be a tyrant...I’ve failed all of those tests.
And then people say, no wonder she doesn’t respect you. But then they say, don’t do anything to get a reaction out of her. Or don’t do anything based on what you think she will think. And then I misinterpret that advice to mean, “Don’t do anything intended to cause her to think anything about anything” which may be one step too far.
I see this all playing out as a power game that I can’t win, mainly because she doesn’t (and I don’t) think I have the courage to follow through. Therefore I am a weak man who isn’t worth the risk because he wouldn’t be a good protector of the family we never built.
You see? I sort of can’t win. And yet that’s why it was so exciting to think that if I did something truly outlandish, like “taking back the house,” if I did that and stood there while she threw things at me, she would see the strong person I used to be, and suddenly her mind would be transformed. It’s a ludicrous rescue fantasy. And anyway she wouldn’t throw anything at me except confusing emotions and statements that make me doubt my sanity more than I already do. Physical pain I can handle; I’ve been mindlessly walking on a broken ankle for 6 months. But emotional pain is difficult for me. She knows it, and after BD we talked about how she wanted me to be emotionally strong so that I could carry her when she was feeling weak.
I can’t really win this and I know that “winning” isn’t the right way to approach it, but it’s just so darn tempting. I am SO much wiser now in terms of what I SHOULD have done during the M and right after BD. But I didn’t (and still don’t) have the strength and perhaps never will. And it’s too late anyway.
So that is how something as simple as opening a new bank account becomes a week-long journey of self-loathing.
burned, I had this idea this morning that I need to create a vision board of what creative turns my life might take next. Nothing will be off the table. Mine will include a small home with a bit of land but perhaps I'll have chickens and sheep. I've always talked about how "someday" I'd like to have a mini-farm type living situation. I've never taken actions towards achieving those.
OR maybe I have a 2 year job in Italy in a small flat. I really want to fully immerse myself in the language.
These are my future steps, not my now-actions (yet). Can you build what your next life might look like without your W in it? How would you choose to live differently? Don't just copy and paste your life as it is now into a different location.
Look further ahead because you're still very much living in the now and the past. Break out of your mental cycle. Later on you can build steps towards achieving the next version of you, but right now just get out of the mental cycle and allow your brain to live creatively. You and I both think very methodically, but I think we need to change that.
Here’s an example of the problem I have. Last night I was looking at a magazine for people with off-road vehicles (not at all my jam) and there were all these photos of couples camping and having a nice time with their dog. That’s what W kept wanting to do, for years. What did I do? Came home from work, tired, grumpy, sat on the couch reading and avoiding her because I felt like I let her down. Years.
So now I look at all the fun things I want to do and they’re all the same things I (should have) wanted to do before. Like, one of the books had an exercise where you try to picture a happy home and what it would look like. Oh, it’s a cute little house in a quiet neighborhood with a dog, 2 cats, a 3-season porch where you can watch the thunderstorms...hey that sounds awfully familiar.
I mean seriously, my dream life looks a lot like the life I had. I was just starting to feel like I had “made it.” But it was just a little too late.
It’s like getting kicked out of school because you couldn’t add 5+5 and on the way home you find a piece of paper that says 10.
And then I just re-read the part you wrote about not copying and pasting. So then my task now is to envision a life that is different just because it’s different. Like, the house should be blue, Andy it should be on the other side of the street, and instead of a dog I should have a llama. I get the point, it’s about entertaining other possibilities. I’m still stuck on what I lost. And I’m not the type of person to do something different “just because.”
And then people say, no wonder she doesn’t respect you. But then they say, don’t do anything to get a reaction out of her. Or don’t do anything based on what you think she will think. And then I misinterpret that advice to mean, “Don’t do anything intended to cause her to think anything about anything” which may be one step too far.
I know how you feel. The more I read, the more I learn, the more I see integrity, and standing up for yourself, doing the right thing, I am convinced this means (I have to find the courage in myself by myself) to tell her to pack up and move out because it's the right thing to do. Then I back up and wonder is this what everyone's really trying to tell me but people are allowing me to figure this part out on my own? Or am I just overthinking things again? I have this sense that people want to encourage me to grow a pair to "do the right thing" which I am assuming is making her leave, but they're leaving it up to me to figure this part out on my own. It's not like that is it? Just for now, detach, gal, continue to work on me and don't worry about getting into arguments with her or no talks of us, right? (then the thoughts of the kids, that's just extra to think about, doing this or that for them, but we can't use them as excuses to NOT do what we need to do...)
Sometimes it's confusing(maybe indicative to how bad I have NGS), and I used to be the type that would plan and plan and plan, do the homework, be prepared, but over time I stopped and thought I didn't need to be like that anymore. I still don't know what to say to her if she ever opened up and says something about OM. I think I would black out and say something really derogatory with GET the %$#$ OUT.
In going back to the quote, trying to be objective, outside looking in, I do agree not to do anything to "just get a reaction out of her" What's the point if you texted her right now and cursed her out because you felt like it and we may all agree it could be warranted, but what is the purpose, you'd be trying to get a reaction out of her. I don't think that's the same as standing up for yourself IN THE MOMENT. That's what I am referring to as being ready. I don't think anyone is saying you can't stand up for yourself, especially right then and there. It would be pointless if we call them up or talk to them and say, oh and honey, babyboo, shugarlumps, that thing 4 months ago, when you ripped my heart out, I want to revisit that and uh tell you to GET the #$%#$%# out now. I wonder if anyone has done this and how did/does that usually turn out?
burned, talking about happy homes... don't get me all emotional thinking about in 7 months this was supposed to be OUR dream home she is moving into with the kids. I hope it haunts her to be alone in it. It's funny in a twisted sort of way, when I empathize, it hurts a lot for a little bit, but when I think about me, my sitch, I feel empty inside. I wonder if I'm bottling it up in an unhealthy way... like suppressing it way down for later maybe?
The other day when I was at work, watching my life with W and kids play before me on my monitor, day dreaming, I felt like I was in one of them movies where the guy is running to catch the train. I'm on the right track, trying my best, but I'm always going to be 2 steps behind, arms reaching out, and I'm watching it slowly fade away into the horizon.
I promised myself one day I will go a whole day without thinking about her at work. I owe it to myself. One day I'm going to stop moping about thinking of some lost chance. I'm going to stop feeling like a victim. Maybe that day will be tomorrow. We shall see.
I mean seriously, my dream life looks a lot like the life I had. I was just starting to feel like I had “made it.” But it was just a little too late.
Listen, I had everything I ever wanted in my current life. Seriously. I was living my dream scenerio that I spent YEARs building with my wife and it came crashing down. I'm in as much pain as you are. My life was (bleeping) perfect. IT IS GONE in this current form.
So then my task now is to envision a life that is different just because it’s different. Like, the house should be blue, Andy it should be on the other side of the street, and instead of a dog I should have a llama. I get the point, it’s about entertaining other possibilities. I’m still stuck on what I lost. And I’m not the type of person to do something different “just because.”
I get that. I guess what I'm saying is I think we all have more than 1 dream way of living. I was living my #1. But there were other dreams too that I couldn't live simultaneously because we can each live only one version at a time. So find or pick a different one. Just to think about right now, that's all I'm asking. Have a daydream. I don't think we all have only 1 perfect way of existing. We may only focus on one during our lifetime, but dreams are dreams just because we don't create them.
Imagine we were able to live in multiple dimensions at once, or that some type of reincarnation exists, or that we could hit a re-set button and relive our lives with different choices at different points. None of us have enough time on earth to live out every dream we ever had. So find another one and pursue it, even if it isn't your #1.
Maybe start with a simple premise. What would happen if you chose not to live in your current town? I'm not saying you should quit your job or leave your local support system behind. I'm just saying, use the mental exercise to ask, "what if?". Just to know you have options, and feel confident that you can do whatever you like.
Well, I made the mistake of reading some old text messages from BD (that stuff all happened via text; we’re both extremely conflict-avoidant). Threw me into a little tail spin. I remember when I said I’d never give up on her, she said, What if you still love me but want to live with someone else. So now that I’m looking at it from a WW perspective I realize that the only reason for her to say something that specific would be because it’s what she had in mind for herself. So that stinks. Not only did she cheat, not only did she leave, but she left me for someone else.
I’ve been waking up with panic attacks the last few days. Not sure why. Nothing is different except maybe that things are becoming more and more real. I keep thinking that this is as real as it will get, and then I’m always surprised by how much more real it gets, if that makes any sense. Spending a lot of time interacting with people around here over the break, I felt good about helping others but I think a lot of it is about hiding from reality and trying to soothe myself by telling myself it’s not the end, even when it feels so, so definite.
I keep reading and re-reading old posts, trying to stay optimistic. I know this pain is part of the process, but that doesn’t make it easier. And when I’m in the middle of it it’s hard to see how it will ever end. I hope I’m not stuck like this forever.
On that note, in terms of getting unstuck, I’ll be back at work today and interacting with humans and focusing on that. I have a little list of goals here, mostly related to self-care habits. I tend to ignore the most necessary basic things when I’m obsessing over a problem that I’m trying to solve. Sort of absent-minded professor mentality. W hated my inability to pull my weight with domestic chores. She felt that expecting her to do all that work made it seem like I didn’t respect her, that her time wasn’t worth as much as mine. But who mowed the lawn, vacuumed, etc.? I guess the chores she handled were the ones that had to be done EVERY day, not once a week. Anyway, I’m trying to improve those habits but it’s slow going. Nobody wants to marry a slob. Funny that when W and I got together I had just moved out from my parental home, and I was good at chores because I was proud of being independent. Then M happened and I fell back into my lazy ways. Caught W by surprise and she was never satisfied with my contributions. And I never realized how serious she was when she said it was a problem. So that was false advertising on my part.
What I’m learning about the goals lost is that it functions as a sort of pool of ideas that you can pull from. Like, what’s something I’ve been meaning to do that I can do this week that would give me a sense of accomplishment. For example, this week I will find a place where I can start volunteering. Add some structure to my non-working hours, and give something back to others in need, which is something I enjoy. That came from my goal of “being a better person,” sub-goal “do kind things for others.”
That’s all talk. Let’s see if I can back it up with some action, for once...
Part of me is wondering if it may be best for you to file for divorce. Not as a way of proving to W anything. OPr showing her anything. Or even proving to yourself that you are strong enough to do it.
More like I feel like you are stuck in this place where you are afraid to do anything because of the impact to your potential R. Its you are wearing one of those backpack leashes for kids being held by this concept of your marriage. Im wondering if by being DIVORCED, it will give you that freedom to be doing things in your life without mentally checking for any impact/movement as it relates to W.
If you were to write the story of your life, it feel like you are picturing it as one stream of conscience....one chapter where the story just plays out. I wonder if maybe having a DIVORCE would help you to segregate your life into chapters....or volumes. Where one chapter is your marriage. And the next chapter is your reinvention and emergence from the ashes. Sure, there will be tendrils from one chapter to the next, but it isnt and shouldnt be the main theme anymore. Unfortunately, I cant find or see what it will take for you to cut that tether and stop framing all of your actions in the light of your marriage.
For me, it was simply the space of separation and really throwing myself headlong into GAL. What will it take for you? Maybe it's fully committing? But on the other hand, it feels like you are afraid to fully commit BECAUSE the marriage is still lingering.
In my opinion, the best chance that you have to save your marriage is to completely forget about it. But how? Will it take actually BEING divorced for it to set in for you? Im not sure exactly....just food for thought I guess.
In my opinion, the best chance that you have to save your marriage is to completely forget about it. But how? Will it take actually BEING divorced for it to set in for you? Im not sure exactly....just food for thought I guess.
This is sort of what I was trying to get at a few weeks ago when I was pondering it. Like, not only to get a sense of control by BEING the one to do it, but also to get it rolling because I think in my head it's this looming thing that has to happen before I can move on.
And yet here I am terrified of moving on, for fear that then I will have lost her. Today is particularly painful, for whatever reason.
And then that causes me to lose her. So I don't know, in terms of what SHE sees, I essentially have moved on. I post nothing on social media. I have no interactions with anyone who interacts with her. We are physically S. Interactions happen only electronically and deal only with the upcoming D or other managerial nuisances. With the exception of her occasional "I hope you're OK" or whatever garbage, which I don't respond to, there is no talk of anything emotional whatsoever. (Speaking of those, I still don't know what to make of them, my best explanation is that she's saying nice things just to satisfy herself.)
So from the perspective of DB, aside from what I'm doing for me, I mean in terms of what's forward-facing to her, I'm doing the "right" things and doing them consistently. It just hasn't made a lick of a difference, to the best of my knowledge. Of course it's too soon, so...what it has ended up doing is to deprive me of the short-term satisfaction I used to get from interacting with her. But it's a conscious choice in order to create the possibility for later reconciliation, I guess. Unless or until something else comes up in my personal life, I guess.
Edit, to add: as far as DIVORCE, which looks scary and ominous when it's in all-caps rather than abbreviated to "D," that's the part that annoys me the MOST. If this is all falling apart but it might come back together, I really resent having to go through that. Expensive, painful, publicly embarrassing, and so forth. So it adds finality, but it also destroys all decorum, if that's the right way to express it.
And yet here I am terrified of moving on, for fear that then I will have lost her.
I think this is key word for you.
Every time I see you take a step forward, you move the goal posts in your head and so it looks like youre going the wrong way or sideways. It's like you are scared to move forward because it FEELS like it is getting you farther away from her. And that is scary.
Change is scary. New is scary. Alone is scary. I get it.
But your other choice is being stuck.
Have you ever read "Oh the Places Youll Go"?
I feel like you are in "The waiting place"
Waiting for a train to go or a bus to come,
or a plane to go or the mail to come,
or the rain to go or the phone to ring,
or the snow to snow or waiting around for a Yes or No
or waiting for their hair to grow.
Everyone is just waiting.
Waiting for the fish to bite
or waiting for wind to fly a kite
or waiting around for Friday night
or waiting, perhaps, for their Uncle Jake
or a pot to boil, or a Better Break
or a string of pearls, or a pair of pants
or a wig with curls, or Another Chance.
Everyone is just waiting.You have too much life left for that. YOU are too valuable to allow yourself to be there.
So what do you need to break free? For me, it was making plans, it was GAL, it was defining goals for myself and accomplishing them one by one. For me, DIVORCE didnt really mean much by the time the papers were signed.
For you, maybe that signature has meaning...
[It just hasn't made a lick of a difference
THink with a beginner's mind. MAYBE, it has been the best thing you could have done - as in any other option would have made the situation worse. If so, then your choices HAVE made a difference. But rather than 'getting better' youve prevented things from 'getting worse'.
Thats why I keep saying - you cant measure your progress based on HER. Or you WILL be stuck. For a long time. Possibly forever.
For you, maybe that signature has meaning...
You mean the quote about action?
It just hasn't made a lick of a difference
Think with a beginner's mind. MAYBE, it has been the best thing you could have done - as in any other option would have made the situation worse. If so, then your choices HAVE made a difference. But rather than 'getting better' you've prevented things from 'getting worse'.
I like that. I was never good at delayed gratification, and that has been the source of many of my problems in life, in my M and in general. I avoid pain/conflict now, out of fear, and then I pay for it later, double or quadruple. It makes me look bad and it makes me doubt myself. So I am much more aware of that now. And I'm trying to remind myself that I have to suffer now in order to get something good out of it later. Anyway, how much worse can it get? OK, now that I say that, it could get worse FOR ME. But the MR is about as dead as it's going to be.
Thats why I keep saying - you cant measure your progress based on HER. Or you WILL be stuck. For a long time. Possibly forever.
The fear of being "stuck," when it shows up periodically, is the WORST. It puts me face to face with some really deep psychological/philosophical issues, mainly related to taking responsibility for my life. That's exactly what I'm working on in IC. I live my life in my head, so I never get the real-world feedback that comes from choosing an action, taking it, and seeing what happens.
Measuring progress based on your feelings/actions rather than on hers. That really resonated with me. Tha is really the only progress that we can truly measure and count on. I will be keeping that in mind as I continue to try to detach...with love. Hang in their Burned. I really believe that things always seem the darkest before the dawn. You will get past this and begin to see things in a different light...eventually. (((HUGS)))
In my opinion, the best chance that you have to save your marriage is to completely forget about it. But how? Will it take actually BEING divorced for it to set in for you? Im not sure exactly....just food for thought I guess.
This is sort of what I was trying to get at a few weeks ago when I was pondering it. Like, not only to get a sense of control by BEING the one to do it, but also to get it rolling because I think in my head it's this looming thing that has to happen before I can move on.
Inner peace doesn't come until you let go. It's not so much forgetting about the M so much as it is accepting your sitch, accepting you can't change your W's mind and being OK with the outcome whether it's recon or not. When you get to that point, THEN you can consider getting the D rolling. But if you try to push the D through before you've gained that inner peace then you will likely regret your decision.
And yet here I am terrified of moving on, for fear that then I will have lost her.
Moving on is not a technique for bringing her back, because if that's what's in your mind, then you haven't moved on at all, you've only pretended you've moved on (which she will see right through). Once you get to the point of well and truly moving on (which you will), then you will be content whether she returns or not. Not to say you won't care, of course you will, you probably always will. But again, it's finding that inner peace and acceptance that sets you (and her) free.
(Speaking of those, I still don't know what to make of them, my best explanation is that she's saying nice things just to satisfy herself.)
They are temp checks.
So from the perspective of DB, aside from what I'm doing for me, I mean in terms of what's forward-facing to her, I'm doing the "right" things and doing them consistently. It just hasn't made a lick of a difference, to the best of my knowledge. Of course it's too soon, so...what it has ended up doing is to deprive me of the short-term satisfaction I used to get from interacting with her.
Ok so how do they know you HAVEN'T moved on? They know when you pursue and beg and plead and throw yourself in front of them. They also know when you go dark and don't reply to messages and are cold and indifferent towards them. Why? Because that says "I'm punishing you for what you've done hoping it will wake you up and get your attention." BOTH approaches let her know you are still firmly in the Plan B court, that all she needs to do is snap her fingers and you will abandon your position and come running back.
How do they know when you HAVE moved on? When you are your old self around them. Smooth, comfortable, chatty yet aloof, amusing, confident, unconcerned. Basically.... NORMAL. Your normal self. So many people try do "nice" their WAS back, and then when that doesn't work they try to "mean" them back. It's two sides of the same coin though, and the WAS knows that.
^^^^AS^^^^^ This!
Truer words have never been spoken!
And yet here I am terrified of moving on, for fear that then I will have lost her. Today is particularly painful, for whatever reason.
And then that causes me to lose her. So I don't know, in terms of what SHE sees, I essentially have moved on. I post nothing on social media. I have no interactions with anyone who interacts with her. We are physically S. Interactions happen only electronically and deal only with the upcoming D or other managerial nuisances. With the exception of her occasional "I hope you're OK" or whatever garbage, which I don't respond to, there is no talk of anything emotional whatsoever. (Speaking of those, I still don't know what to make of them, my best explanation is that she's saying nice things just to satisfy herself.)
Burned, lost her you already have. There is no if when you ask the question about your marriage. Your marriage is dead, it died at BD. You have lost her at that time at the latest, but most probably a couple of years prior to BD. When she quit nagging you most likely thought that you were doing great. You were, but she was checked out by then.
It does not matter one bit that she is saying niceties every now and then. It is just to appease her and has nothing to to with her feelings towards you.
Stay strong buddy...
For you, maybe that signature has meaning...
You mean the quote about action?
OK, I get what you meant now. The signature on the divorce papers. So, yeah, it does have a lot of meaning, because I ascribe a lot of meaning to it. Primarily negative meaning right now, but I get your gist that it could be turned into a positive meaning.
Hey burninator I posted this quote on DV6 page, but I think its relevant for you and letting go. Its a hard one to hear and I struggle with the harshness of its truth.
"She is not yours, its just your turn."
Hey burninator I posted this quote on DV6 page, but I think its relevant for you and letting go. Its a hard one to hear and I struggle with the harshness of its truth.
"She is not yours, its just your turn."
Love the nickname!
Saw that on DV6's thread and I was just about to ask you where you got that from. I don;'t really get what it means out of context. Like, it was my turn to have her?
ow do they know when you HAVE moved on? When you are your old self around them. Smooth, comfortable, chatty yet aloof, amusing, confident, unconcerned. Basically.... NORMAL. Your normal self. So many people try do "nice" their WAS back, and then when that doesn't work they try to "mean" them back. It's two sides of the same coin though, and the WAS knows that.
I love this ... this is where I want to get to ... not quiet there yet.
if I could pin it on my fridge I would. Except he'd see it. I might take a screen shot and have it ready to read when ever I am faltering in my resolve.
It does explain things well I agree. But what if the 'normal' old self isn't what they want (otherwise they wouldn't have gone looking elsewhere?)
Hey burninator I posted this quote on DV6 page, but I think its relevant for you and letting go. Its a hard one to hear and I struggle with the harshness of its truth.
"She is not yours, its just your turn."
Love the nickname!
Saw that on DV6's thread and I was just about to ask you where you got that from. I don;'t really get what it means out of context. Like, it was my turn to have her?
I heard a divorced Canadian talk about it on youtube. Basically, you don't own your W, you never owned your W, she was never yours. You only own you. Everything changes or comes to an end. Maybe your turn lasts till one of you die, maybe its lasts until one of you get off the ride (i.e. D). Its more important to cherish what you had, and cherish what you have while you have it.
Everything changes or comes to an end. Maybe your turn lasts till one of you die, maybe its lasts until one of you get off the ride (i.e. D). Its more important to cherish what you had, and cherish what you have while you have it.
Melancholy.
And I'm the 2 year old throwing a fit because the ride ended and it didn't last long enough.
It does explain things well I agree. But what if the 'normal' old self isn't what they want (otherwise they wouldn't have gone looking elsewhere?)
I think what I mean by normal is when I can act with them in the same way as I act with anyone else. Where I am not constantly double thinking and triple thinking every word before it comes out of my mouth, wondering if it will come across as cold or pursuit. When interactions take no thought at all.
That makes sense FS and something for us to strive for. I still have voices in my head of what I want to say to him (it's not nice either) but I don't say it (mostly because we don't have any contact for weeks on end) When those voices have gone, I guess it will mean I'm in a healthier place. I do feel like I've got unfinished business though (perhaps because I always had to have the last word) but hopefully this will pass.
Re: AS's post to Wanted1 about WWs "softening their position" after BD. For reasons I won't get into, I discovered a major 180 that I would need to do (related to being a complete slob at home) in order to R with W. The question is, if they soften up, are there issues that are just dealbreakers? Or does it just FEEL that way right now? It's back to the same LBH question about, "If I spend 2 years making dramatic changes, but they never interact with me, how will they know?" I mean, my apartment could be spotless, she would see that FINALLY after 10 years of nagging I finally got my act together. But that would still reinforce her view that the fact that I didn't get my act together while WE were together means that I didn't respect her enough.
I know we've talked about this before but it's fresh in my mind today and I'm wondering if anyone can maybe say something reassuring in that regard. The most basic answer will be: do the 180s anyway, for me rather than for her. But I am curious what the dealbreakers are or have been, and whether the WW eventually does see through them back to the person she used to love despite them. If that makes any sense.
And note that the main impetus for this particular 180 isn't to "win her back" but to protect myself from getting dumped, over and over, because I'm a slob who is difficult to live with and expects others to clean up after him.
Hey B, it´s not about protecting yourself for getting dumped, it´s because life goes on. You are a young man, getting into amoafwl. How´s GAL going B?
Burned
Here is a question for you. Do you look deep into your 180s? Why you do them, why they needed to be done? On the surface you 180 because you are a slob and its unattractive. On the deeper level you 180 because you need to man up because a woman wants to be your partner not your Mom.
I think it's not whether she knows, but its whether you know what needs to be done and just doing it.
Burn,
you do the 180s for you, and not for anyone else. Because if you start doing it for anyone else, you will be constantly looking over your shoulder and gnawing in dissapointment when you do not see anyone looking at that exact moment. You have to get your mojo back. You really think your W left because you were being a slob? No! It might play a miniscule part in it, but a very small part indeed.
180s are about getin your mojo back, getting your confidence back, loving yourself and your life. It is then and only then you will be attracting quality people in your life. Broken attracts broken...
Burn,
you do the 180s for you, and not for anyone else. Because if you start doing it for anyone else, you will be constantly looking over your shoulder and gnawing in dissapointment when you do not see anyone looking at that exact moment. You have to get your mojo back. You really think your W left because you were being a slob? No! It might play a miniscule part in it, but a very small part indeed.
180s are about getin your mojo back, getting your confidence back, loving yourself and your life. It is then and only then you will be attracting quality people in your life. Broken attracts broken...
THIS * INFINITY * INFINITY
You really think your W left because you were being a slob? No! It might play a miniscule part in it, but a very small part indeed.
I guess that's what I was getting at. I'm definitely doing the 180 for me because I'm just tired of feeling bad about myself for being messy. My ENTIRE life people have made me feel bad about my messiness. "Absent-minded professor" doesn't give you a free pass, ESPECIALLY not at home where you're supposed to be the H, not the "professor."
But I don't know about minuscule. I think it was a major thing. At least she made it sound that way, and not just after BD. Oh well, nothing I can do about it now except the 180.
I always heard that quirks that people found cute about their SO while dating, become points of contention after marrying.
I think it is amplified after BD. Things that were mild annoyances prior to BD are now too huge to get over post BD. It goes along with the "rewriting history" that WASs engage it.
I agree with Vapo. Your W was annoyed by it, but unless you are hoarding garbage in the common areas of the house, I cannot imagine it is a real reason for the failure of your MR.
Free yourself B, free yourself. You´ll recall this time in the future only as a bad memory. Move forward, better times ahead.
You need to leave that state of mind behind man. It´s no easy but you need to consciously apply energy to do so. Let me tell you something. I´m going to speak from the dark side...My R with OW was an on/off R. I knew I was wrong in what I was doing so I tried to escape from that R many times. I often told OW that I couldn´t choose her, I had my family and I was sinking with that ship. Awful...Storm all over the horizon. Well that ship is now sailing with strong winds and full sails. Let the time pass to heal the wounds. Better times are coming man, I promise you.
(((B)))
The question is, if they soften up, are there issues that are just dealbreakers? Or does it just FEEL that way right now?
What do you mean? Do you mean if you were a slob and she softens up but discovers you are still a slob could that be a dealbreaker that would make her decide not to recon? That really depends on her. I can tell you I know two different men whose wives left them and they did no 180's at all and their wives still came back. But then I've done a bunch of 180's and my W didn't come back. So does that mean we shouldn't do 180's? LOL! Like Vapo said you do them for you. The impact you hope a 180 has on your W is an expectation, and expectations just lead to disappointment.
It's back to the same LBH question about, "If I spend 2 years making dramatic changes, but they never interact with me, how will they know?"
They have a 6th sense about this stuff. And though they would never, ever admit it, they are checking in on us- snooping, asking questions to mutual friends/ family/ kids.
I mean, my apartment could be spotless, she would see that FINALLY after 10 years of nagging I finally got my act together. But that would still reinforce her view that the fact that I didn't get my act together while WE were together means that I didn't respect her enough.
As long as she's still a WAS anything like that will be "too little too late" in her eyes. But once she gets over WAS status, she will look and say "wow he really has changed, this new burned is very interesting indeed!"
Free yourself B, free yourself. You´ll recall this time in the future only as a bad memory. Move forward, better times ahead.
But once she gets over WAS status, she will look and say "wow he really has changed, this new burned is very interesting indeed!"
Thank you. Those two comments set the tone for the rest of the day.
Today was super weird.
Yesterday I saw IC in the morning. He pushed my buttons, probably intentionally, and then I was essentially dysfunctional for the rest of the day. It was snowing so we had a lot of cancellations and the work day ended up being a "team-building day" which is code for "let's goof off and enjoy ourselves." Puts people in a good mood. I didn't get any work done, but on days like that it doesn't matter much.
This morning I woke up feeling pretty terrible about myself, as previously mentioned. But it lit a little fire in me. I got fed up with myself.
Next thing you know, I'm at work getting s#it done. Still snowing, so more cancellations. But wouldn't you know it, when I get all sassy and start acting like my old self, I get a BETTER response from my colleagues, not a worse one. Burned 1, NGS 0. I can't tell you how gigantic of a relief this is. My colleagues are my second family, and after BD they felt like they were losing me just as much as I felt I was losing them. So as of today, I feel like I'm getting back on track there. Not out of the woods, but I'm starting to get a grip on things. A month ago the feedback from the boss was, "You suck at this and I'm not sure you're worth the hassle." Today the vibe is, "You have some specific problems that you need to address, but we like you and we're willing to tolerate your shortcomings as you bounce back." At lunch one of them said, "Burned, you seem like you're doing a lot better these days."
Next, I went to a meeting that I'd rather not be specific about. It lasted a few hours. At the end the facilitator mentioned something about volunteers. So I stayed and asked her if she needs more volunteers. She said, Yeah, totally, and we're doing training pretty soon. So I will email her to get that ball rolling. Getting into a volunteering gig has been one of my goals since S (of course, I have been procrastinating, what else is new). So that fell right into my lap.
On the way out the door I got a text from the girl who organizes the little Meetup group that I go to every Friday night. The back story to that is that she's trying to develop a sort of non-profit that creates opportunities for lonely hearts like me to get together with others. I wish I had a better way of explaining it, but I'm not sure exactly what the plan is. It's neat, though. So she sends me a text asking if I want to be on the leadership team. Yup! I see this going somewhere, and it will be fun to be involved. So that fell right into my lap. Except that would not have happened if I hadn't been GALing.
And guess what? I thought about W only occasionally, and only for a short amount of time, and my usual reaction was, "Well, there it is, nothing I can do about it, oh well. Let her do her thing. I'm OK for now." I even went to the bookstore to find a new book, and I did what I promised myself I wouldn't do. I went to the "relationships" section and looked at the books about D. And I flipped through one of them and got annoyed at the usual advice. Eff that noise. But instead of letting it ruin the rest of my week and send me spinning, I sort of grimaced, walked away, and by the time I was back at my car I was thinking, Meh, whatever.
It was snowing. Beautiful. Made me think of all the times I would go home to W and the weather outside was crummy and I loved being at home with her, warm and comfortable. So I looked at the snow and thought to myself, Meh, that was then. Here I am now.
Then, back at the apartment, the maintenance guy randomly shows up. I had emailed him a couple of weeks ago and I was just about to actually CALL him (duh). He gives me the key to my mailbox. I didn't know what number I'd get. But now I can finally start having my mail forwarded so I don't have to go to the house to get it. And I can start updating my address for credit cards and things like that. Then he says he's got someone coming to fix the dishwasher tomorrow. And then he says that he and the landlord and various other people play pool downstairs sometimes, and that he would text me next time they're down there to invite me.
Not sure what to make of all this but I'm feeling OK in a way that I haven't felt in a while, and it's a huge weight off my shoulders. I hope I can keep it going tomorrow.
involved. So that fell right into my lap. Except that would not have happened if I hadn't been GALing.
And guess what? I thought about W only occasionally, and only for a short amount of time, and my usual reaction was, "Well, there it is, nothing I can do about it, oh well. Let her do her thing. I'm OK for now."
My understanding and experience so far is that the "bad" feeling will still come in waves, but this part about "feeling OK" and getting better at being "meh" does mean something, because if you are feeling okay, you ARE ok... (I read that yesterday somewhere...why can I never remember where?!)
I think it's great that you've "verbalized" that thought process in this way. I actually just started truly practicing the same thing today, where when I thought about missing H I forced myself to think, "NO, how about how nice is this warm water in the shower right now at this moment? Ahh so relaxing..." It felt awkward and, as I said, forced, but I think it's a good step and for you to have had multiple moments of that today is great!
Just don't beat yourself up if a wave comes later on. That's what I was struggling with over the holiday, was having gone so many weeks feeling "OK" and then Thanksgiving came and I fell apart, cried to my mom, went to IC and yoga in the same day and felt anxious for two more days before finally now feeling a bit better again.
Burned, that's a pretty good day, that's what I'm talking about in taking it back, your life - from work to home and all in-between. In my thread you posted something about your coworkers and here it is now, not long after that, you had a great win at work. Glad you were able to draw positive energy from the two quotes and you ran with it. You turned that negative energy when you were fed up with yourself and turned it around and it just snowballed from there.
You said it, had it not been for you GAL'ing, things would not have been lined up the way they did. It was just a domino effect after that. Whatever you want to call it, the power of will, attitude / altitude, you create your own fate, or the power of positivity, this will overflow into other aspects of your life. Wake up, let something good inspire you and roll with it. Then go to sleep and think about something good and sleep well.
I like how you were able to appreciate the snow, able to reflect back on beautiful memories and then pop back into reality, still in tact.
inspiring man, good day.
(From TJT's thread)
I dread the idea of going to bars to “pick up ladies.” Eff that noise
I just came here to yell at you. Because when you start dating I guarantee it will be some lady walking over to pick YOU up. Sit back and relax, bro.
Wait, is that your new 180!? Let the lovelies come to YOU? I think I totally guessed it.
(From TJT's thread)
I dread the idea of going to bars to “pick up ladies.” Eff that noise
I just came here to yell at you. Because when you start dating I guarantee it will be some lady walking over to pick YOU up. Sit back and relax, bro.
Wait, is that your new 180!? Let the lovelies come to YOU? I think I totally guessed it.
Hahaha.You might as well have said this to me too lol.
I just came here to yell at you. Because when you start dating I guarantee it will be some lady walking over to pick YOU up. Sit back and relax, bro.
Wait, is that your new 180!? Let the lovelies come to YOU? I think I totally guessed it.
Lol. Thank you. No, wouldn’t be a 180, that’s how it always was. For all 2 of the girls (b/c I met my last girl, my W, when she was 18 and I was 20) that were ever my “girlfriend.” Friend of a friend sort of thing. I used to tell W that I was so glad we met before online dating was a thing. But I’m not 20 anymore, and I don’t spend my weekends d’cking around with my friends and running into all kinds of people. So, gonna have to exorcise that introversion and exercise some extraversion.
- - -
Woke up suddenly just now wondering if I overdid it a bit with pain18. I meant well, trying to get him inspired, but I might have been a bit too outlandish and now my NGS is kicking in. Karma’s a b’tch. I’m sorry, pain, I really hope you’ll accept that post with the spirit of camaraderie that I intended but maybe didn’t convey well.
- - -
I should add that the dream I woke up suddenly from was W screaming at me, “It’s not your life!” (meaning, her life isn’t mine to control). So you could say that I’m learning a thing or two from the folks here.
Hey man, that is a good GAL that you are doing. There´s no GAL left
Keep it coming!
Woke up suddenly just now wondering if I overdid it a bit with pain18. I meant well, trying to get him inspired, but I might have been a bit too outlandish and now my NGS is kicking in. Karma’s a b’tch. I’m sorry, pain, I really hope you’ll accept that post with the spirit of camaraderie that I intended but maybe didn’t convey well.
Stop apologizing. You meant well. Water off my back.
We're in this together.
Quite a relief to hear from you. Been feeling guilty all morning. Yes, we're in this together, meaning you're stuck with me, sorry. I'm a hothead, and my next 180 will be being much more careful about what I say and how I say it.
You and me both.
Iron sharpens iron. That's how we learn and make us better.
Burned, sounds like a great day and like you're starting to remember who you are! The up days will come and go at first but soon you'll find that the good days outweigh the bad
soon you'll find that the good days outweigh the bad
Yeah. I'm looking forward to more days like that. The problem is that then I go to sleep and the day is over.
I had W dreams all night. Then today she texted about some financial issue related to her D preparation. And then on FB she posted about a huge milestone she achieved on a project she has been working on for the past year, all proud and bubbly and happy and excited. Still using my last name on there. No one has a clue what's going on behind the scenes.
For whatever reason, or maybe because she's only projecting the positive and hiding the negative, it just seems like she has been much happier since S. Maybe things are going well with OM or without any OM or whatever.
So I remind myself of what we've covered here: she is a lying cheater; she doesn't know what she wants but she's doing this stuff to convince herself that she's doing the right thing; she is that way now, but it might change; she will stick to her guns and give no indication of wavering; she might file for D and keep on pushing until she gets what she wants. And then she might still someday change her mind.
I just hope by the time "someday" rolls around I'll be having more of those good days, so that it doesn't bother me quite as much. Still working on that detachment, apparently. Time...more time...more space...
Man, it seems you are boycotting your own detaching. There’s no need to be snooping on social media. Then you start mind reading. Give your mind a rest. Get into some meditation, start knowing yourself so as to choose things to fulfil your actual life. You need to help yourself B.
Better times are coming man, PMA. Keep DB!
Burninator,
My W kept my last name. It's just easier and takes no effort. Plus in my case we have 3 kids so it makes sense. My point? Don't worry about it.
Why are you looking at her FB?
Why do you care about some meaningless school project?
Why do you care if she is fronting her problems with supposed happiness?
WHY DO YOU CARE?
If it doesn't deal with D, finances or something specifically to you and your sitch, you are wasting valuable time, energy, and brainwaves on her. Cause trust me B she isn't reciprocating. Move forward B!
No one has a clue what's going on behind the scenes.
This is same with my H, although he has stopped his activity on SM, I'm sure to hide what's really going on in his life. But aside from the friend he and his son are now living with and his parents (who I forced him to tell, and I have admitted before that may have been a bad choice, but I was struggling bad and needed people to know what he was doing to me) I guarantee nobody else knows what he's doing.
I've been curious as to whether the people at his work know what's been going on with him and OW now, because it would still be super weird as an outsider, in my opinion, to see what he's doing. But I've stopped worrying about it, mostly (I won't pretend to be perfect on that front but I do realize more and more every day that it will come out eventually).
So I remind myself of what we've covered here: she is a lying cheater; she doesn't know what she wants but she's doing this stuff to convince herself that she's doing the right thing; she is that way now, but it might change; she will stick to her guns and give no indication of wavering; she might file for D and keep on pushing until she gets what she wants. And then she might still someday change her mind.
Exactly my thinking and approach.
I just hope by the time "someday" rolls around I'll be having more of those good days, so that it doesn't bother me quite as much. Still working on that detachment, apparently. Time...more time...more space...
I was thinking about this today too... like if it happens, even right now, would I really feel like I THINK I would feel? Or am I perhaps at a point where maybe I actually would be a little more like...hmmm, let me think. I have no doubt I would try to go forward with R at this point but I'm just saying, I do feel some small, small shifts in my mentality, definitely helped by time.
The more time that goes by, I do believe the stronger we'll get...but I think we also actively resist that thought because in a way, it's also scary to think someday WE will grow out of something that we know we would have done anything for at some point.
And then on FB she posted about a huge milestone she achieved on a project she has been working on for the past year, all proud and bubbly and happy and excited.
So let me get this right, you are actually bummed out that she is happy? Be happy for her. Even if you don't recon why would you not want to wish happiness on her. YOU should be happy no matter how she feels. THAT is detachment.
Still using my last name on there.
And that brings you down too? I can see it now, "today was a really bad day, I noticed my W changed her last name on FB". In other words you are down and depressed about her NO MATTER WHAT SHE DOES. You really need to work on that detachment! I agree with Neffer and Twofeet, you need to get the hell off of FB. Literally nothing you see her post is going to do anything but put you in a bad mood.
For whatever reason, or maybe because she's only projecting the positive and hiding the negative, it just seems like she has been much happier since S.
People (and women in particular) have a way of painting a super rosy picture on social media even when they are falling apart IRL. So you really can't use that as a basis for determining how happy she is. But even if she is happy, so what. Her moping around and being sad and depressed is not going to bring her back to you. My ex seems pretty happy recently, and she has reached out to me a lot more now that she seems to be doing better.
you are down and depressed about her NO MATTER WHAT SHE DOES. You really need to work on that detachment!
Yeppers. But man, things sneak up on me! Example: there are some people working out downstairs listening to 80s hits. They were playing Journey, and of course "Don't Stop Believin'" was the song W and I always sang at karaoke. Woe is me, blah blah. Oh but just now it switched to Van Halen, which reminds me of my first GF who was a major hottie. Gotta find another one of those.
People (and women in particular) have a way of painting a super rosy picture on social media even when they are falling apart IRL. So you really can't use that as a basis for determining how happy she is.
Has always been true for her. I shouldn't have fallen for it.
I think we're all in agreement, FB is off limits until further notice. Meeting adjourned.
So... I read a thing on the elephant journal about how detachment can actually be bad for us in some ways if it results in ultra suppression of our feelings. I'm not sure what the rules are about linking to other things so I won't do it here unless someone asks, but it made a lot of sense.
I just say that because while I get the value of not basing our happiness on the actions of others, I also don't think it's reasonable to "strive", per se, to not be emotionally impacted by someone we were once deeply emotionally entwined with. And never "attaching" to someone so that the hurt doesn't happen again doesn't seem to be right either.
I do think it's a process and if people are pushed to "detach" too quickly, it could result in more harm by those feelings not getting acknowledged..no to sound all cliche about it. And I know someone will re-define what detaching is supposed to be but I'm just observing that many times we get chastised for the emotions we're feeling under the premise of "you need to detach", and while yes, ultimately that's what we want, perhaps feeling the feelings is part of getting there?
I'm getting too deep now at end of day... that is all.
People (and women in particular) have a way of painting a super rosy picture on social media even when they are falling apart IRL.
Well, my life is falling apart and I'm definitely not painting a rosy picture on SM, haha. I have not really been on it at all, for the very reason that I don't want to be "fake" and it's obviously not necessarily the best time or place to let people know what IS going on, the way I'd like to at least.
On the other hand, my H is painting a rosy picture not even on SM, but in real life, to everyone he encounters. He is happy and this doesn't seem to affect him. He said he's happier around everyone but me, and I know I'm not THAT terrible even if I have my moments. It's absolutely him compartmentalizing what's really going on within himself.
So, I think the statement is more appropriate for anyone who has done something they're not proud of in general. People who are guilty and in denial of the things they really need to face and own up to or just generally address. It's a coping mechanism, so still validates what you've said about not using it as an effective gauge of true feelings.
TJT,
There are many different styles of attachment. A quick Google search should bring up explanations. A lot of what I have witnessed on here and something I myself struggle with is one form or another of unhealthy attachment. I somewhat agree that perhaps we don't necessarily have to 100% detach immediately right this second but we certainly need to do a great deal of detaching and any attachment we do hang onto needs to shift to a healthy variety.
So... I read a thing on the elephant journal about how detachment can actually be bad for us in some ways if it results in ultra suppression of our feelings. I'm not sure what the rules are about linking to other things so I won't do it here unless someone asks, but it made a lot of sense.
I just say that because while I get the value of not basing our happiness on the actions of others, I also don't think it's reasonable to "strive", per se, to not be emotionally impacted by someone we were once deeply emotionally entwined with. And never "attaching" to someone so that the hurt doesn't happen again doesn't seem to be right either.
I do think it's a process and if people are pushed to "detach" too quickly, it could result in more harm by those feelings not getting acknowledged..no to sound all cliche about it. And I know someone will re-define what detaching is supposed to be but I'm just observing that many times we get chastised for the emotions we're feeling under the premise of "you need to detach", and while yes, ultimately that's what we want, perhaps feeling the feelings is part of getting there?
I'm getting too deep now at end of day... that is all.
TJT,
I am just amateur hour over here so some one like AS, R2C, LH19, Bluewave, or any longtime vet could give you a better answer.... so here goes
I think people are supposed to lovingly detach. I do not think it is something that comes easy and you really have to work at it. I also don't think it is something where you suppress emotions. I think emotional suppression just leads to serious problems down the road. It might have been AS or someone else that started having anxiety attacks later in their sitch from not letting the emotions out. I think when you lovingly detach you still care for your S and you have emotions for them, but you are on a boat and you don't let there waves knock you off that boat. I think it means you stay centered in their presence or by their actions. It doesn't mean you don't feel, grieve, etc. Those emotions need to be let out, but in privacy of your own solitude. In the S presence a I feel that lovingly detached person stands from a position of strength and being centered.
I think people get chastised on here for not detaching because of the way they come across. Burned for instance is having a bad day because of his W actions. Now, there is nothing wrong with feeling bad, but he has let his W actions ruin his day, especially actions that have nothing to do with his sitch directly. He comes across to me almost as panicky. B sharing his bad dream related to his W has nothing to do with the rest of his post. He also isn't getting on here and saying "W did X and it is so annoying... well it bothered me so much I went and did Y to get my mind of it, win for me!" Unfortunately, he lets his W actions put him in a tailspin.
If you go read B's posts on other peoples sitch its like he is a whole different person. Very insightful, lots of clarity. He gets nutty on his on sitch because he is struggling with detachment and his other issues.
TJT,
There are many different styles of attachment. A quick Google search should bring up explanations. A lot of what I have witnessed on here and something I myself struggle with is one form or another of unhealthy attachment. I somewhat agree that perhaps we don't necessarily have to 100% detach immediately right this second but we certainly need to do a great deal of detaching and any attachment we do hang onto needs to shift to a healthy variety.
Yeah, I get it. I think sometimes, because we are all just trying to be so committed to each others' success, we can get a little pushy (and in fairness, folks are often posting about moments in time without full line of sight to the larger context of the person's day, thoughts, etc. We only know what we know.)
I think we all understand for the most part. Just something to be mindful of I guess, that when someone is posting about a bad day it may not be that they are totally not detaching, full stop, but it may have just been a moment!
He also isn't getting on here and saying "W did X and it is so annoying... well it bothered me so much I went and did Y to get my mind of it, win for me!" Unfortunately, he lets his W actions put him in a tailspin.
I see what you mean, especially if someone is displaying a trend of the same unhelpful reaction/behavior. But sometimes, yeah, we have bad days and we don't do the GALing and that's that. Sometimes just reassuring the other person that they can keep going, vs. being all "hey, you're not detaching!!" can be better for our motivation. Otherwise we can feel like we're just continuing to fail. I'm speaking very broadly here because I don't want to be mistaken - I know we all need a good kick in the butt sometimes!
If you go read B's posts on other peoples sitch its like he is a whole different person. Very insightful, lots of clarity. He gets nutty on his on sitch because he is struggling with detachment and his other issues.
Yeah I've seen this in action personally, as he's commented on my sitch (and sorry B, I know we're talking about you like you're not in the room, hahaha). I think we're all kind of like that though because it's obviously WAY easier to give advice on a situation when you're not the one in it with all the feels. Again, "getting nutty" on one's own sitch is to be expected in my opinion, to an extent of course. I don't think we'd be human if not.
Maybe I'm just defending B because I recognize the same feelings he's describing in myself, but yet I still feel like I'm making decent progress...just with some bad days or moments along the way that I'm certainly not proud of!
No worries. TF and I go way back. I’d gladly be friends with him IRL. I get panicky and I get nutty, those are perfect descriptions. I get all worked up and I end up...burninating the countryside!
I end up...burninating the countryside!
I don't know, that kind of sounds like GAL to me! lol.
For the record I just want to say I didn't mean I think you needed to be defended or that anyone really crossed a line here. Was just thinking about different perspectives on things.
I didn’t get that impression, so all is well.
Believe me, I’ve learned quite a bit about crossing lines in the last 24 hours.
So... I read a thing on the elephant journal about how detachment can actually be bad for us in some ways if it results in ultra suppression of our feelings. I'm not sure what the rules are about linking to other things so I won't do it here unless someone asks, but it made a lot of sense.
I just say that because while I get the value of not basing our happiness on the actions of others, I also don't think it's reasonable to "strive", per se, to not be emotionally impacted by someone we were once deeply emotionally entwined with. And never "attaching" to someone so that the hurt doesn't happen again doesn't seem to be right either.
I do think it's a process and if people are pushed to "detach" too quickly, it could result in more harm by those feelings not getting acknowledged..no to sound all cliche about it. And I know someone will re-define what detaching is supposed to be
Hi TJT and sup burned, stay off FB
I questioned my detachment today wondering if I was only suppressing my emotions rather than accepting things for what they are.
TJT, there’s healthy and unhealthy and for myself, I tend to struggle with these balances so it’s easier to deal with black and white. Let’s say you were still emotionally attached, not detached, to someone who hurt you and that person is still living with you. Do you see any dangers in that? I still live with my WW and I’m all hunky-dory, where I have to think about it like what’s wrong with me. I can’t be detaching that quickly so what else is there? Denial? Fear?
Maybe in my sitch we both were driving each other crazy and both were falling out of love. I don’t know, will need to explore that more.... I hated the arguing and seething hatred is what it felt like sometimes.
Well, my life is falling apart and I'm definitely not painting a rosy picture on SM, haha.
You should though!! We used to talk about this more years ago, but if you're getting out and GAL'ing then by all means take pics and post them on social media! Even if the WAS "unfriends" the LBS, they WILL see what's being posted. Usually it's a nosy friend. "Hey did you see these pics your W posted, look at this. Sure does look like she's having fun." But man, I've known some people IRL whose lives were complete train wrecks and by looking at their FB or IG accounts you would think they were rich and famous. Some people have mastered the art of not acting as-if but LOOKING as-if
I think people are supposed to lovingly detach. I do not think it is something that comes easy and you really have to work at it. I also don't think it is something where you suppress emotions. I think emotional suppression just leads to serious problems down the road.
Yes, completely agree. The goal is detachment but hopefully it's clear that it is not something that happens quickly! It's a long, slow process that happens gradually. When we say "detach" we don't mean to imply "right now" or "overnight", we're just saying that some people are -overly- attached and need to work on reversing that. Also we do advise not to show your emotions to your WAS, but you are right, that doesn't mean bury or ignore your feelings because that is harmful. The book "The Happiness Trap" delves into this quite a bit and I reference pieces of it a lot here, in particular how there are no "good" or "bad" feelings, they are all valid and should be accepted by each of us. When we try to suppress "bad" feelings then they just come back later bigger and worse. We've all had someone lash out at us for seemingly no reason only to find out later they were mad about something completely unrelated to us, that's a classic example of someone trying to bury their emotions.
It might have been AS or someone else that started having anxiety attacks later in their sitch from not letting the emotions out.
I was about 3 months post-BD and thought I was recovering, detaching and ready to let my W go. Suddenly I plunged into depression and anxiety attacks. Had never experienced either before and wow, I look at that as the lowest part of my life. When you go through depression you find out it's not something you just control yourself out of, it's a very real illness and you're just along for the ride. To this day I don't really know what triggered it, it could very well be because I was suppressing some things but I will say I was pretty good about not trying to hold it in (except around my W). I've never been much of a crier (because I was trained not to cry as a kid) but man did I ever open the flood gates after BD. I cried on the way to work, on the way home from work, would lock myself in the bathroom at home and cry. So yeah, I wasn't trying to hold anything in. Anyway given that experience, whenever someone that's only a month or two post-BD starts saying they are done and moving on and want to pursue D, that to me is a person setting themselves up for one hell of a crash like I had. That's one of the reasons you'll see me say so often to do NOTHING. Time is a healing friend, embrace it. A lot of people want to end the pain ASAP- push S or D or whatever. But rushing into decisions doesn't bring an end to the pain. It doesn't bring any relief at all.
I think when you lovingly detach you still care for your S and you have emotions for them, but you are on a boat and you don't let there waves knock you off that boat. I think it means you stay centered in their presence or by their actions. It doesn't mean you don't feel, grieve, etc. Those emotions need to be let out, but in privacy of your own solitude. In the S presence a I feel that lovingly detached person stands from a position of strength and being centered.
Yes exactly, very well said!
Burned for instance is having a bad day because of his W actions.
Not to pick on Burned in his own thread but like so many others here, he has a bad day because of his W's actions NO MATTER WHAT THEY ARE. When I read the comment that he was bummed because she posted something on FB and still has his last name, that was a classic example I think. Because what's the alternative, she changes her name? And how would he react to that? Certainly in an even worse way. So she can change her name or leave it the same, either way he has a negative reaction that ruins his entire day. So what is detachment, is it not caring about anything she does? No it's not that extreme. But if you're detached and your W doesn't change her name then certainly that doesn't send you spinning. Now if she does change her name it is going to upset you even if you're detached. But you bounce back from that kind of stuff quicker if you're detached.
By all means, pick on me. It's why I came here. You'll recall that my first thread here back in August had "detach?" in the title. Going on 4 months ago now. If anything, detachment has been, and will be, my primary challenge.
This morning, in the span of half an hour, I went through three phases:
1. Lying cheating selfish manipulative b'tch! I'm going to the courthouse TODAY. It's so over, might as well kick her to the curb. Nobody treats me that way.
2. Well, hey, why not just THINK that and not do anything? Let her do whatever she wants, I don't care what a lying, cheating, selfish, manipulative b'tch does or doesn't do, feels or doesn't feel. Whatever, goodbye, Im living for me now. Send the paperwork to my L.
3. OH NO SHE WAS ASKING ABOUT FINANCES that means she's working on the affidavit and it's just a matter of time before she explodes my heart again.
That's...annoying? I'm looking forward to GAL tonight but I'm getting tired of the yoyo. When I get to phase 3 I try to push myself back into phase 2 by thinking, "Well, you know, it has already been 4 months since the real BD, and have we made any real progress towards D except general discussions about who will get what?" And then I think, "Yup, she could change her mind." And then I think, "Nope, hardly likely, at least not in time to have to go through that mess of D."
So. Just...ugh. My heart aches to be reunited with a lying, cheating, selfish, manipulative b'tch. What is wrong with me? Need more GAL. Need to get to a point where I can STAY at phase 2 and like it there. And then when she emails with a passive aggressive comment about not being able to access some account (because I changed it) I can just ignore it and move on with my day.
This morning, in the span of half an hour, I went through three phases:
Man that brings back memories. It's just exhausting, all the mental bouncing around like that. I mentioned The Happiness Trap in my last post, have you read it? It might help. One of the techniques they offer is visualizing a stop sign when you start spinning like that. Eventually you can train yourself so that it happens automatically. You start spinning, the stop sign pops up in your mind's eye and that automatically calms you down. The book has some really great tips and tricks in it for working through your emotions.
When I get to phase 3 I try to push myself back into phase 2 by thinking, "Well, you know, it has already been 4 months since the real BD, and have we made any real progress towards D except general discussions about who will get what?" And then I think, "Yup, she could change her mind." And then I think, "Nope, hardly likely, at least not in time to have to go through that mess of D."
Eventually you'll replace all that stuff with "what should I have for lunch today?" and "is this leg day, or chest/bicep day?" and "wow look at that checkout clerk, she's HOT"
My heart aches to be reunited with a lying, cheating, selfish, manipulative b'tch. What is wrong with me?
You're loyal and faithful. How dare you be someone of character!
Need more GAL. Need to get to a point where I can STAY at phase 2 and like it there. And then when she emails with a passive aggressive comment about not being able to access some account (because I changed it) I can just ignore it and move on with my day.
You'll get there! Have patience with Burned
Text from W, says the bank won't let her take over the mortgage, asks if I am "open to discussing" being willing to co-own it for a couple more years. Umm...no. Did I not already make that clear? My response (avoiding NGS): "let me think about it." Her response: "The alternative is I have to sell it." So? Not my problem. I didn't respond to that second text.
This is an opportunity to hone my skills. What's my DB approach here? I know what I want and I'm getting a little better at just flat-out saying it. But some people have advised me to leave the negotiating to the L(s).
It obviously pokes a hole in her plans (and remember that I TOLD her more than a month ago that that was likely to be the case). I shouldn't be having any expectations about whether it will interfere with her fantasy or whether it will influence her feelings in any way.
Anything else I should remember to take into consideration? I really don't want to manipulate. I also don't want to be conciliatory, in the sense that I don't feel obligated to make this easy for her. Yet I also don't want to intentionally make it difficult. Honestly I feel kind of good that I didn't have to do anything and it's already starting to go the way I anticipated.
Text from W, says the bank won't let her take over the mortgage, asks if I am "open to discussing" being willing to co-own it for a couple more years. Umm...no. Did I not already make that clear? My response (avoiding NGS): "let me think about it." Her response: "The alternative is I have to sell it." So? Not my problem. I didn't respond to that second text.
This is an opportunity to hone my skills. What's my DB approach here?
My opinion? No, nope, I don't think so, HELL NO. There's really nothing there to think about. She wants a divorce, well by definition that means splitting up belongings and making a clean break. You are right, if she has to sell it that is not your problem.
Anything else I should remember to take into consideration?
The irony of it. Tell her no and she will pout and mope, but inside a seed of respect will be planted. Tell her yes and she will lose what little respect for you might be left because she sees someone so desperate and clingy that he's willing to share a note with a woman that dumped him!
Business is business. If she can't assume the loan post-d you need to get off it otherwise you are liable if she doesn't pay. I would say either sell it and split the proceeds or assume the loan and rent it to her. Whatever works for you.
Personally if you can handle without the lawyers I'd say that's better, but I don't think that's the case for most people.
No, nope, I don't think so, HELL NO.
My feelings exactly.
Tell her no and she will pout and mope, but inside a seed of respect will be planted.
Magic! I get this on an intellectual level but it still feels oh so wrong. Oh well, act as if. Here I go!
Tell her yes and she will lose what little respect for you might be left
Harsh, but fair. Wait a minute...I respect that! Suddenly I'm developing a man-crush...
I love the seed of respect sentence. Couldn´t agree more.
There´s nothing wrong B. Show W what is to face a DBer! A cool, calm and collected DBer (redundancy here)
I would say either sell it and split the proceeds or assume the loan and rent it to her. Whatever works for you.
Personally if you can handle without the lawyers I'd say that's better, but I don't think that's the case for most people.
I've got experience with this as well. Given we built a brand new frickin house and just moved in, when my H said he wanted D I'm like, welp, what are we going to do about this business arrangement we just entered into?? I'm not sure if it will help, but I'll explain how this has gone down in my sitch:
In our case, it will COST us to sell because again, brand new. No equity. Still an option if we wanted to split the cost to sell.
Or, one of us could agree to keep it and refinance to remove the other person. That was the original plan, with me keeping it because unless he got a co-signer, he wouldn't be approved (and couldn't afford the payment) with just his salary. Unfortunately, I was able to get approved on my own just fine, but problems came as a result of the lenders all requiring a re-appraisal, and apparently the home appraises for significantly less right now than it did when we bought it, meaning the loan to value ratio would require I/we still put a huge chunk of cash toward the refinance for the bank to approve it.
Also, refinancing would suck in general because interest rates have continued to go up so I would be stuck with an even higher mortgage payment just to get his name off. But I was willing to do it if that's what I had to do.
So where we've ended up on this is as follows: one of the loan agents I talked to actually told me she had been in a very similar situation, and her and her XH basically agreed to keep both their names on the mortgage, because she mentioned you can just have it written into the divorce decree who is going to be financially responsible.
YES this does still mean the other person's credit could be affected if the person taking responsibility doesn't pay. But it simply offers documentation if the other person who is not wanting to be financially responsible then wants to go out and get a loan for a different house or a car or whatever - while the mortgage will still show up on the credit report, you can present the decree signed by a judge that says you're not responsible and then usually they will not "count" the mortgage for your new loan at that point.
Then whoever is keeping the house can have the decree state that the other person needs to transfer their title rights. So in my case, we'll write that I'm keeping financial responsibility but that title will be completely in my name so that if I do ever sell, H will not be entitled to the sale at that point since we'll be divorced and he's given that up.
I am agreeable to this arrangement, again from where I stand in my sitch, because I'm the one paying, so I'm not at risk. If anything it just kind of [censored] that his credit will continue to be built up because of my good payment history
H readily agreed to this, I think because he knows I'm reliable and won't ruin his credit without ruining mine. In your case, if the script is flipped, you don't want to keep the house, she can't take it over... I mean it will either come down to getting creative with potential roommates/cosigners for her, or yes, selling it and splitting the profit.
In any case I empathize with not wanting to make it "easy"/without consequences, but also not wanting to fight. I hate that H is the one who wants D, but I'm "stuck" with all the house stuff now and he's basically been able to just walk away. But for me, it was the only path forward that was reasonable financially given the house is so new. I suppose I could have told him no, I don't want to pay for this house we entered into TOGETHER on my own, so you need to figure something out, but I was at a point emotionally where I just wanted resolution to whether he was going to move out or not.
I guess even THEN I could have told him I still expected him to help pay for the house until HE figures out a solution that we can both agree to. Ultimately in my case I just don't think there was any other feasible solution that wasn't going to cost us both a lot of money, and I came to the conclusion that holding the house over his head wasn't going to do any good in trying to keep him in the relationship. Looking back on it now maybe that was too much NGS? Maybe I should have been more forceful about not wanting to take full financial responsibility even if I CAN.
My H does, however, get to sit with the fact that he sunk a big chunk of cash into it that he will never get back I guess, once he signs off the title.
As Twofeet mentioned - this is VERY much a good idea to figure out without lawyers. I'm not sure what your state laws are, but I live in a community property state. As long as we agree, we can agree on whatever, but if not, a lawyer is going to do things to make the split equitable, which will likely cause disagreements, and cost you both a lot MORE money in lawyer fees. That doesn't mean it's not a good idea consult with one about your rights, if you're worried about options or what you're entitled to. But I think if it comes down to it, you'd want to present those facts to W in a pragmatic way to agree to it together vs. it being done through lawyers.
As another example from my sitch - because I'm agreeing to keep the house, legally I could be required to buy him out of it with something like half of my 401k. So far he hasn't mentioned wanting any kind of buyout and I don't think he would start that kind of nonsense because we both also agreed we don't want to spend even more money on lawyers, and if he were to try to ask me for my money after everything he's done to me I would probably be like eff it, if you're going to to do this I'm going to put a dent in your finances by making us go through lawyers to where you will be paying to get what you want.
I also don't live in an alimony state (I suspect his ego might be too big to ask for spousal support, and we'd have had to have been married 10 years for that anyway). But again, I don't know your state laws or your personal financial situations. Just things to consider if you decide to get lawyers involved. It could be of benefit depending on which side of the fence you sit, but you definitely have to weigh how much you would lose to the lawyer fees.
Business is business. If she can't assume the loan post-d you need to get off it otherwise you are liable if she doesn't pay. I would say either sell it and split the proceeds or assume the loan and rent it to her. Whatever works for you.Personally if you can handle without the lawyers I'd say that's better, but I don't think that's the case for most people.
The question is what do you want. Ignore her - what do you want? What is financially better for you? What is emotionally better for you?
I live in our marital home. I pay the mortgage (I always have). I cannot afford to buy him out and am hoping (if he doesn't come home) then his better angels win over and he doesn't force me to sell. This is our children's home and the best thing for them is to stay put (the less their lives change the better). [censored] for me - I am effectively making him money and letting him continue to cake eat, but it is better for my kids. In the long run, once I get over the fact that he left me, it is better for me too - our house is a sound investment.
I thought the plan was for you to get the house back...?
Didn't happen. I was advised against it by a couple of people IRL who I asked about it. Then procrastinated about calling the L, tried to, chickened out, haven't scheduled a meeting yet, and...yeah, that kind of thing is what got me to this point in my life.