Old thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2815553#Post2815553W,
Cancel the marriage counseling session and stay in IC. You're wasting your money while she is in an affair. MC is for when she is committed to the marriage.
So, what do I say when she asks why I'm cancelling?
W,
You and I both know you are still in contact with OM. We can not actively work on our marriage when there is a third party involved.
End of story.
W,
You and I both know you are still in contact with OM. We can not actively work on our marriage when there is a third party involved.
End of story.
That's exactly what I was thinking. This would be a boundary I can enforce without leaving it up to her to "enforce" which I flubbed up over the weekend.
I think her response is going to be: "These joint sessions aren't for working on our marriage. They are for me to give me a "safe" place to share my thoughts and feelings in a way to try to figure out where we go from here."
While I believe this still falls under the 'working on our M' umbrella, I've learned over the past 4 weeks that whatever I think, she thinks the opposite. Oh well, I'm still going to move forward as you suggest.
W,
She is not working on the marriage. Believe me you will know when she is working on the marriage.
W,
She is not working on the marriage. Believe me you will know when she is working on the marriage.
Oh trust me, I know. She keeps hiding behind the "I need time and space to figure it out" mindset. She did tell me that she's not had the urge in the past month to work on things so far. Part of that is probably my fault for not giving her the time and space to think things through. I've tried, but every 5-6 days I have a weak moment and go to her with more of my thoughts and feelings. I know this doesn't help. I'm probably a slow learner, but after a month of the same actions with no positive results, I'm all in now on not conversing with her about those things anymore.
I've tried, but every 5-6 days I have a weak moment and go to her with more of my thoughts and feelings.
Yeah that needs to stop or you will be punching your ticket to divorceville.
I've tried, but every 5-6 days I have a weak moment and go to her with more of my thoughts and feelings.
Yeah that needs to stop or you will be punching your ticket to divorceville.
Yes, I understand completely now. Like I said --- SLOW LEARNER apparently!
Yup. The sooner you stop that, the better. Plus the more you say, the more ammo she gets.
The “individual” in “IC” is what counts. If she wants a safe space to talk about her feelings, she can do that in private like everyone else.
For the boundary, maybe a slightly more positive spin. You’re willing to work on the M and do MC when she’s ready. Not just “ditch OM first” but more like, “take your time, do what you need to do, and when you’re ready I’ll see where I’m at and we can discuss it then.”
Yup. The sooner you stop that, the better. Plus the more you say, the more ammo she gets.
The “individual” in “IC” is what counts. If she wants a safe space to talk about her feelings, she can do that in private like everyone else.
For the boundary, maybe a slightly more positive spin. You’re willing to work on the M and do MC when she’s ready. Not just “ditch OM first” but more like, “take your time, do what you need to do, and when you’re ready I’ll see where I’m at and we can discuss it then.”
Good advice. Thanks.
I agree with LC and burned here W. She needs IC, you need DB, MC is a no go. Read Cadet´s first post again. you need to reinforce DB. Take your time. Time and patience. Time and patience. Work on yourself, detach, GAL.
You are just starting your journey man...it´s a marathon, breathe...
No words. Take action. Just don't show up for MC.
Later, IF she asks then you say (in person):
H:"W, We both know you are still in contact with OM. I decided there is no point in going to MC."
No words. Take action. Just don't show up for MC.
Later, IF she asks then you say (in person):
H:"W, We both know you are still in contact with OM. I decided there is no point in going to MC."
I disagree.
DBing should make you a better version of yourself, not a worse one.
It's fine not to go, but tell the counselor and your W in advance.
Update from yesterday:
I had my IC session yesterday, so I had planned ahead of time to discuss with her my hesitations for doing the joint session with everyone next week. I basically had 3 reasons why I was hesitant. 1) that I saw no upside in doing it. W basically went through her litany of all the reasons she feels the way she does in the first session and I don't think she needed a platform to say anymore. Message was received loud and clear in the first session. 2) I explained to my IC the technique I'm now implementing with LRT. 3) I felt since OM is still actively communicating with W, there is no need to do this joint session if the goal was to possibly talk about moving toward R even if the the chance seemed very slim.
The good news is, she agreed with me 100%. After I told her those 3 reasons, she agreed with being hesitant as well but also said she wanted to keep it scheduled for now because she wanted to discuss with W's IC the apprehension both of us felt in doing it. She said that maybe W's IC knows something that was shared in one of our individual sessions that W hasn't communicated to me or didn't communicate in the joint session last week. I told her I am willing to wait and see if she comes up with reason for keeping it on the books.
So, after I got back from IC, I was at my computer at work and had a notification that there was a potential breach on my email so it wanted me to create a new password. Once I did, I had about 50 emails come through that I hadn't gotten up until that point. Included in those emails was one from my W that was sent at 7 AM yesterday morning. She talked about what all went on over the past weekend. Thanked me for all the kind words that I had said. Told me she's so happy "for me" for the changes that I've been making. Told me it lights up her world that I'm taking a more active approach with the kids' daily lives and I've become more patient with them, etc. However, she went on to say that some of the other stuff I said to her were things that maybe I didn't intend to come across as bad or to make her feel guilty but those things "again, can't be undone." (Throughout this whole process she just holds on to the one or 2 things that she infers as bad. I can say 1,000 nice and loving things and might make a mistake by using LOGIC on 1 comment and that it what she takes and runs with) She went on to say that she feels as though she needs to take this job she's been offered for herself. That working with my family has always been a difficult dynamic for her. She also went on to say that she doesn't think she can continue living with me but is terrified, just as I am, about what that will look like.
One comment in her email really stuck out. She told me that I paint this perfect picture of what a perfect life would look like but it doesn't include the fact that 'she doesn't want to be my wife,' or something to that effect. She also mentioned when we had our discussion on Friday night that she made the comment to me that "she doesn't feel like she can be a wife right now." She claims I immediately disregarded her comment and didn't think about it for one second, and instead I responded that that isn't true that she's loving and kind and she has been and can be a good wife to me. Again, my intention in making that comment was the complete opposite of how she took it.
Needless to say, I think the email password snafu was an accidental 180 for me! As soon as she got home from work and I was in the MBR, she came to me to ask if I had any questions about what she wrote to me. I said, "no not really. It was basically everything you've expressed to me in the past." She then asked a couple more questions trying to get me to open up which I didn't respond to. Then she asked how my session went. I told her it went pretty good and then told her I went into the session with hesitations about doing another joint session that's been scheduled and told IC the reasons for my hesitation and she agreed with me. W then asked "Are you going to share those reasons with me?" Which I responded, "If you want me to I can," to which she replied "yes." I then told her. The conversation lasted about an hour. She kept imploring me that she doesn't view the communication with OM has mutually exclusive to our R. That they just talk about random stuff. I told her, while that might be true, that isn't the point. The point is you are still communicating with someone you met 3 months ago, you've had a history with and you sent a picture of our son to him. That right there tells me that it does involve our R.
She then asked me what I see as the benefit of her ceasing contact with him. If she sent him a text telling OM they can no longer communicate and if she let me see her send it, what do I see coming from that. I told her, I don't know what would come from it and I don't think you know either. You might think this has no bearing on your feelings but you can't be sure of that. Subconsciously it might be the reason you are so adamant about not wanting to at least consider the possibility of R with me. I told her I don't intend to tell her what her thoughts and feelings are, but I said I honestly don't think either of us really know until it would happen and we can see if there are any results. I told her my IC agreed with me 100% that there is no way a M can be R if a third party is involved. My IC said "that's marital counseling 101."
She seemed understanding. Started to cry and I think she was about ready to break because she something along the lines of "I just don't know what to do," or something similar. The reason I can't remember is because right when she was saying that it was 6PM and I had a scheduled call with my DB coach. So, another accidental 180 for me since I told her we can pick up with this conversation if you want later, but I have to make a call. In the past, I'm the one that had kept talking and talking and talking and never really halted the conversation on my own terms or prematurely.
Later on after we got the kids to bed she came back to me and said "I don't remember where we were at." and I said "I don't remember either." She responded with "Is there any more questions or anything that you want to discuss?" to which I replied "Not really." She then went on to say that maybe we can talk more in a day or 2 and I said Ok. She ended the conversation, however with telling me that she realizes we both have the kids' best intentions at heart and that she hopes it will continue to be that way and that we can work together in fulfilling those intentions moving forward. I said "Yep," and then she left.
Not sure if that last comment was her sort of "pulling back" after what I kind of felt was a potential breaking point for her before I had to end the conversation earlier or not. Hard to judge anything and I have zero expectations moving forward. That just seems like the best mindset at this point. However, I can't help but notice even the tiniest baby step of her coming to me to talk. I'm sure she was preparing for me to fire off a long drawn out email in response to hers and even though I wouldn't have if I would have received right away in the morning when she sent it, the fact that she was curious enough to come to me after work is something she has never done before. I hate to put too much stock into it but at the same time I want to claim at least a small victory to make myself feel better!
She has her next IC session tomorrow. I'm going to wait and see if she shares what takes place in hers or not. I'm not going to ask. If she wants to come to me and tell me, I'll listen.
Less is more. Say only what you need to say. Come to this board to vent the rest. Anything you say can and will be used against you. It's like a twisted 5th Amendment for the LBS.
Don't nail the coffin shut. Hand her the hammer.
W has her IC session today. First one since the joint session we had last week. I'm hoping her IC can maybe shed some light on some of the issues she's dealing with after she heard directly from me in the joint session. At one point in the session W's IC remarked after something I said "this shows the complete breakdown in communication where you intend one thing and W hears something completely different."
It has been quite a roller coaster these past couple days. Starting with the letter she sent me. At that point I figured all hope was lost and was beginning to accept the inevitable. Then I started seeing a glimmer of hope in the conversation we had but then yesterday when I found out she's accepting this new job it feels as though that's one more step in the direction that she's planning on moving on and I'm not in her plans for the future.
Just now, I asked her if she wanted to go to daily mass this morning and she said yes and then followed it up with "You are going too right?" I told her that I was planning on it.
The next step will be to see if she still feels like she needs to move out. I have suspicion she was looking at a place to rent yesterday but can't verify for sure. If she ends up telling me she is going to, I'm not sure how to handle it. I think she's going to try to float the idea of her still coming to our house to eat, put kids to bed and then go back to her place to sleep. This arrangement doesn't seem any different than what we are doing right now. She's upstairs for all of that and then once the kids are in bed she goes downstairs. I'm not sure if I should ask her how moving out is going to change anything if her intention is still to be around the house while the kids are up.
Part of me wants to tell her I'm not comfortable with that arrangement. I think she needs to full digest what it will be like living separately. It's her decision and she needs to deal with the consequences. She will tell me "its best for the kids to slowly let them adapt." But I want to reply that I'm willing to cause the kids a little bit of discomfort temporarily so you can feel what it's going to be like if D is inevitable. I guess I'm going to continue to think and pray about how that conversation should go if it does come up. Just trying to be prepared for it and not screw it up royally!
If she ends up telling me she is going to, I'm not sure how to handle it. I think she's going to try to float the idea of her still coming to our house to eat, put kids to bed and then go back to her place to sleep.
W this arrangement doesn't work for me. We both need space from one another to figure out what we want in the future. If you are around all the time we won't be getting the space we need.
If she ends up telling me she is going to, I'm not sure how to handle it. I think she's going to try to float the idea of her still coming to our house to eat, put kids to bed and then go back to her place to sleep.
W this arrangement doesn't work for me. We both need space from one another to figure out what we want in the future. If you are around all the time we won't be getting the space we need.
Thanks, LH.
I was thinking along similar lines:
“W, I don’t see how your arrangement is any different that what is taking place right now with you in the basement. I don’t think what you are proposing works for me. We both need time and space to figure out what we want moving forward. That hasn’t been working for these past 5 weeks so it will just be more of the same.”
I bet she will use words I’ve said in the past against me after I tell her this.
In the past, when she’s said the “kids will be fine,” I’ve said, “I know they will be fine. But I want them to be great. And it is my belief that children should have both parents present in their lives everyday, not just half of the time.”
How I want to respond, if she tries to use that against me: “I know I said that and I still believe that and will always believe it, but this is your decision not mine.”
[/quote]I don’t think what you are proposing works for me. [/quote]
W,
STRENGTH. Does "I don't think" sound like strength?
THIS ARRANGEMENT DOESN'T WORK FOR ME!
You have just as much right and power in this arrangement as she does.
How I want to respond, if she tries to use that against me: “I know I said that and I still believe that and will always believe it, but this is your decision not mine.”
Why do you have to respond? She has her opinion and you have your opinion.
Again, you are trying to use logic and reason and guilt to get her to stay with you. Won't work.
LH, well made points. Thank you!
How I want to respond, if she tries to use that against me: “I know I said that and I still believe that and will always believe it, but this is your decision not mine.”
Why do you have to respond? She has her opinion and you have your opinion.
Again, you are trying to use logic and reason and guilt to get her to stay with you. Won't work.
Anddddddd.....boom goes the dynamite.
Wanted, you are getting some stellar direction here from LH.
LH is the harsh voice of reality. When he speaks it's like a 2x4 whether its intended or not. Listen to him it, he has already been down this road.
LH is the harsh voice of reality. When he speaks it's like a 2x4 whether its intended or not. Listen to him it, he has already been down this road.
Oh I am. And while it may sound harsh I don’t view it that way. It’s appreciated!
Wanted, I know this is tough, I'm going to sling a couple of 2x4's your way but they are offered in the spirit of helping you on this difficult journey:
W has her IC session today. First one since the joint session we had last week. I'm hoping her IC can maybe shed some light on some of the issues she's dealing with after she heard directly from me in the joint session.
Drop ALL expectations. Don't expect or hope for anything to come out of IC because it won't. One thing you have to understand about IC is they are not trying to fix your M or "open her eyes" to what she is doing. They are mainly there for support and understanding. So she says she's done with the M, they tell her "yes it sounds like it's for the best if you leave then." In short they will tell her exactly what she wants to hear.
At that point I figured all hope was lost and was beginning to accept the inevitable. Then I started seeing a glimmer of hope in the conversation we had but then yesterday when I found out she's accepting this new job it feels as though that's one more step in the direction that she's planning on moving on and I'm not in her plans for the future.
I find myself saying this in a lot of threads these days but there is a lot of impatience being expressed around here and you all need reminding that this is a MARATHON not a sprint! Not only is it a marathon, but it's a marathon in which for the first 3/4 of the race you see ZERO progress. You say she gives you no hope? I say OF COURSE, that is how EVERY SINGLE SITCH on here is for months and months. Some of them recon and some of them don't, but they all have that in common- early on the WAS offers no hope whatsoever. They speak in absolutes- "things will NEVER get better", "I have ALWAYS been unhappy", "there is NO chance of recon". You simply cannot look at those statements and believe them because that is only indicating how she feels in that moment of time. Later I guarantee she WILL feel differently. I can't guarantee there will be recon, but even if there isn't she will see you in a different light and remember good things about you and the M.
Just now, I asked her if she wanted to go to daily mass this morning and she said yes and then followed it up with "You are going too right?" I told her that I was planning on it.
Don't ask her to go to things with you, it's pressure. Simply say "I'm going to mass, you're welcome to join if you wish" and then go whether she does or not. The idea is that you are living your life regardless, and she's welcome to join, or not join.
The next step will be to see if she still feels like she needs to move out.
Nope. That's pressure. Even if you say nothing to her just holding that thought in your head is pressure that she is going to feel and sense. The next step is TO LEAVE HER ALONE. Get out. GAL. Give her time and space. REMOVE ALL PRESSURE.
I have suspicion she was looking at a place to rent yesterday but can't verify for sure. If she ends up telling me she is going to, I'm not sure how to handle it.
You tell her "I would rather you stay here and work on the M, but I understand that is not what you want and I will support you regardless and respect your wishes." Then leave her alone. It's her decision to make, and it's up to her to do the work if she chooses that.
I think she's going to try to float the idea of her still coming to our house to eat, put kids to bed and then go back to her place to sleep. This arrangement doesn't seem any different than what we are doing right now. She's upstairs for all of that and then once the kids are in bed she goes downstairs. I'm not sure if I should ask her how moving out is going to change anything if her intention is still to be around the house while the kids are up.
Part of me wants to tell her I'm not comfortable with that arrangement.
Well, you don't even know if she's going to suggest that. So cross that bridge when you get to it. I'd say it's more likely that she'll want to split custody. Whatever she may throw at you, don't give her an answer right away. Tell her you'll think about it and get back with her in X days. Then think about it, discuss it here, get legal advice and THEN give her a response.
I think she needs to full digest what it will be like living separately. It's her decision and she needs to deal with the consequences.
I think all of us have an expectation that S will "wake them up" and teach them some hard lessons on how hard life is going to be without us. Unfortunately it rarely works out that way. They are actually happy, even elated to be out on their own. Sure it's a lot of work but most of them embrace it. They've been partnered with someone for so long that they've never really had a chance to "prove themselves" and they actually enjoy the opportunity. It's very, very rare that a WAS comes running back shortly after S. They need to get over the initial excitement of trying something new, which can take many months. Then they start getting bored and lonely and talk to guys, or maybe go out, and find out the grass ain't greener after all, and in fact is usually pretty brown, dead and rotten. And they look back and what do they see, THAT is where you come in and what your part is in all of this. Do they see a sad, dejected, demoralized heap on the floor or do they see a strong, confident, good-looking, well dressed, fit man that is living a full life without them? So there are your goals. You can't throw a rope around her and drag her back. But you CAN become the spouse only a fool would leave. And if she leaves anyway, then you will shake your head at what a fool she is.
Over the last couple days, I've seriously contemplated reaching out to my MIL. My W hasn't told her parents anything about what's going on. Back when the first A took place 5 years ago, I made my W text her mom and tell her what she'd done to me. Probably not the right thing to do, but the point is, my MIL knows her D betrayed me back then.
I believe PuppyDogTails gave sound advise in this area. Dig through my quotes threads (like#3).
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2045992#Post2045992
Thanks, AS. Just to be clear about one thing, my intention was never to ask her about moving out. I just meant the next step was to see if she was going to be. I wasn't ever going to straight up ask her.
Slight update and question for the masses:
No real contact with W, except for business and kids since Monday evening. W hasn't brought up her accepting the job to me or anything more about potentially moving out. (I did find out she wasn't looking for housing the other day because she told me in a random convo she went to a friends house to talk instead of going to get coffee with her which explains what I assumed was her looking for at rentals.) I'm not bringing any of this up to her either. I'm waiting for her to come to me to have those conversations.
So, this weekend is about GAL for me. I have a meeting on Monday out of town so I'm planning on leaving Sat morning and spending the weekend with some friends before the meeting on Monday. It will be good to get out of the house and not be around W all weekend.
Here's my question, and I'm trying to think ahead to a potential conversation if it comes up so that I can be prepared. My W probably thinks I'm going to be hanging out with my best friend this weekend. What she doesn't know is that he's actually not in town while I'm there. So, I contacted another close friend of mine from college who is a woman. We've always been pretty close friends but have never been intimate or that kind of "friends." To sound completely cheesy, we've always been good buds. I've sensed some jealousy from my W in the past about my relationship with this girl.
So, my question is, if W asks me before I leave, "So you are just going to hang out with best friend?" How do I respond? Right now I'm thinking I will just tell the truth. I will tell W, "best friend is out of town but I plan on getting to together with X since its been awhile and it'll be nice to catch up."
Or do I just say, "No, he's out of town" and leave it at that? What do I say if she follows up with, for instance, "Ok, who are you going to be hanging out with then?"
None of that might come up. She's yet to really ask me any questions that would be regarded as her "snooping" on me. Like, the other day, when I had to break off the conversation with her to make the call to my DB coach, she never asked me who it was or anything even though. Sometimes I think she's on this board reading the proper techniques! However, I want to be prepared in case I have piqued her curiosity over the past few days, especially regarding this GAL trip I'm taking.
Can you hide threads periodically? My W walked in while I was composing the last message and she might have seen the headlines of numerous threads on here opened as tabs!
Hello Wanted, I saw that you posted on my thread so I thought that it would be best to respond here.
Do NOT get the MIL involved. Yes, I did do it but regretted it instantly as it was the wrong thing to do. I was not thinking clearly and although I got a reaction from it, I cannot trust the intentions. Did my W only reach out because her Mother talked her into it? That is not going to help my cause and it surely will not help your cause. There are some unique circumstances in my W's past that make the R between her and my MIL very important that I cannot really get into here.
Listen to the others her and GAL. As far as your question above about telling her what you are going to do and who you will be with, it is none of her business. You have a meeting out of town that is all she needs to know. Being mysterious and living your own life is just one of the many ways to potentially get a WW to turn her head and become curious. Let her be curious, you do you for now and not worry about her.
W,
Hero is giving you great advice to not reach out to your ML.
I can tell by your posts that your mind is constantly racing that you have to do something to stop your W from leaving you. It's called the "illusion of action". The truth of the matter is when that happens it tends to make things worse. If you would of reached out to your ML it wouldn't have gone as you expected. The jealousy card won't work.
I was so excited when my ex was going to tell her dad because I thought it would change her decision. Besides her kids she loves her dad more then anyone in the world. She would never want to anything disappoint him. Well he let her have it telling her it was a big mistake, you can't break up your family and brought her to tears. Guess what, she got over it and didn't change her mind. He helped her move, painted her walls in her new house and cuts her grass. That's what parents do, stick by you even if they don't agree with their decisions.
Now I am going to be completely honest with you. Right now your W has a lot of $hit she needs to figure out. She is a serial cheater and needs help to figure out why. You have to give her the time and space to figure out her issues. It is probably going to include separation or divorce. You can't make matters better right now but you can surely make them worse.
She has to choose to want to be with you. That's the only way it works out long-term.
W,
Hero is giving you great advice to not reach out to your ML.
I can tell by your posts that your mind is constantly racing that you have to do something to stop your W from leaving you. It's called the "illusion of action". The truth of the matter is when that happens it tends to make things worse. If you would of reached out to your ML it wouldn't have gone as you expected. The jealousy card won't work.
I was so excited when my ex was going to tell her dad because I thought it would change her decision. Besides her kids she loves her dad more then anyone in the world. She would never want to anything disappoint him. Well he let her have it telling her it was a big mistake, you can't break up your family and brought her to tears. Guess what, she got over it and didn't change her mind. He helped her move, painted her walls in her new house and cuts her grass. That's what parents do, stick by you even if they don't agree with their decisions.
Now I am going to be completely honest with you. Right now your W has a lot of $hit she needs to figure out. She is a serial cheater and needs help to figure out why. You have to give her the time and space to figure out her issues. It is probably going to include separation or divorce. You can't make matters better right now but you can surely make them worse.
She has to choose to want to be with you. That's the only way it works out long-term.
LH, thank you. I appreciate your comments.
You are absolutely right and while my head agrees with everything you say, a part of me (my heart I'm sure) keeps wanting me to do something to prevent what seems inevitable. I need to listen to my head more which I've done a pretty good job of doing so far this week.
I also understand that it's in God's hands and I just need to trust in Him.
As everyone knows, it's a roller coaster of emotions. Some moments I'm fine and others I'm absolutely heart broken and lost and feel as though I need to act not only for myself but for my kids. I want to protect my kids from the hurt of a potential out of the house S or D. My W thinks they will be "fine" and that we are both good parents and we don't need to be together to raise good kids and instill good qualities in them. That may be true, but it's still the emotional impact to them that she is overlooking. Which is ironic because it appears as though she's acting on complete emotion herself.
So, my question is, if W asks me before I leave, "So you are just going to hang out with best friend?" How do I respond? Right now I'm thinking I will just tell the truth. I will tell W, "best friend is out of town but I plan on getting to together with X since its been awhile and it'll be nice to catch up."
Or do I just say, "No, he's out of town" and leave it at that? What do I say if she follows up with, for instance, "Ok, who are you going to be hanging out with then?"
I would NOT go into detail about what youll be doing. I feel like 'telling the truth' is only to invoke jealousy. I think it's perfectly reasonable to say that it isnt her business and that youll be back Monday.
I would NOT go into detail about what youll be doing. I feel like 'telling the truth' is only to invoke jealousy. I think it's perfectly reasonable to say that it isnt her business and that youll be back Monday.
Why is this so hard to learn?
I would NOT go into detail about what youll be doing. I feel like 'telling the truth' is only to invoke jealousy. I think it's perfectly reasonable to say that it isnt her business and that youll be back Monday.
Why is this so hard to learn?
I guess it's just very counterintuitive to what you would normally say to your wife. I think it is very hard to accept/understand how treating her like something less than your wife would possibly make her MORE attracted to you.
My W probably thinks I'm going to be hanging out with my best friend this weekend. What she doesn't know is that he's actually not in town while I'm there. So, I contacted another close friend of mine from college who is a woman. We've always been pretty close friends but have never been intimate or that kind of "friends." To sound completely cheesy, we've always been good buds. I've sensed some jealousy from my W in the past about my relationship with this girl.
So, my question is, if W asks me before I leave, "So you are just going to hang out with best friend?" How do I respond? Right now I'm thinking I will just tell the truth. I will tell W, "best friend is out of town but I plan on getting to together with X since its been awhile and it'll be nice to catch up."
OK so the rule of thumb here is not to lie, but not to be real generous with information either. So you might say "no he's going out of town." Then if she asks if you're not doing anything after all then say "I still am, I made other plans." If she keeps pushing, THEN say "I plan on getting to together with X since its been awhile and it'll be nice to catch up." It's walking a fine line. Some LBS's are way too generous with info and others are way too stingy. The former makes it sound to the WAS like they are trying desperately to convince them they are not hiding anything, and the latter makes it sound like they are intentionally hiding something. But inbetween is where you want to be- I am living my own life and I will tell you about it if you insist but frankly I don't care to share it with you if I don't have to.
Can you hide threads periodically? My W walked in while I was composing the last message and she might have seen the headlines of numerous threads on here opened as tabs!
Cadet or Job can do that for you, and they can "unhide" them later if you want.
My W probably thinks I'm going to be hanging out with my best friend this weekend. What she doesn't know is that he's actually not in town while I'm there. So, I contacted another close friend of mine from college who is a woman. We've always been pretty close friends but have never been intimate or that kind of "friends." To sound completely cheesy, we've always been good buds. I've sensed some jealousy from my W in the past about my relationship with this girl.
So, my question is, if W asks me before I leave, "So you are just going to hang out with best friend?" How do I respond? Right now I'm thinking I will just tell the truth. I will tell W, "best friend is out of town but I plan on getting to together with X since its been awhile and it'll be nice to catch up."
OK so the rule of thumb here is not to lie, but not to be real generous with information either. So you might say "no he's going out of town." Then if she asks if you're not doing anything after all then say "I still am, I made other plans." If she keeps pushing, THEN say "I plan on getting to together with X since its been awhile and it'll be nice to catch up." It's walking a fine line. Some LBS's are way too generous with info and others are way too stingy. The former makes it sound to the WAS like they are trying desperately to convince them they are not hiding anything, and the latter makes it sound like they are intentionally hiding something. But inbetween is where you want to be- I am living my own life and I will tell you about it if you insist but frankly I don't care to share it with you if I don't have to.
Can you hide threads periodically? My W walked in while I was composing the last message and she might have seen the headlines of numerous threads on here opened as tabs!
Cadet or Job can do that for you, and they can "unhide" them later if you want.
Thank you, AS. That's the answer I was looking for. The 'what if she keeps asking' angle of it.
I'm not trying to intentionally invoke jealously. However, that brings up something I thought I remembered reading in DR which was that sometimes jealously works in your favor. I believe there was a particular story in DR where MWD talks about a W accidentally sending some texts that were meant for someone else to her WAH.....she accidentally sent some that said "I can't wait to get together!" etc. and that turned him around. I wish that could happen in my case, but I'm afraid wishing for that would just lead to more disappointment.
ZERO expectations has been my theme this week.
In fact, I feel like if I can get away with not telling her who I'll be hanging out with, the better. She tends to take whatever I say or do the complete opposite of what my intentions are, so if I were to say I'm hanging out with X, rather than her getting jealous she would probably have the mindset instead that "Ok, he's moving on, good, now I don't have to worry about his feelings any longer! Let's file this puppy and get it over with!"
I'm not trying to intentionally invoke jealously. However, that brings up something I thought I remembered reading in DR which was that sometimes jealously works in your favor. I believe there was a particular story in DR where MWD talks about a W accidentally sending some texts that were meant for someone else to her WAH.....she accidentally sent some that said "I can't wait to get together!" etc. and that turned him around. I wish that could happen in my case, but I'm afraid wishing for that would just lead to more disappointment.
Be very careful with this thinking. WASs are like sharks. LBS' manipulation attempts are like blood in the water. A shark can smell blood in the water from a mile away. The reason the example in the book worked (and I honestly don't remember that account but believe you that it is in there) is because it was an honest mistake. I can almost guarantee you that if that had been done on purpose then the WAH would never have batted an eye about it.
I agree in general though, J does work. That is why GAL and being coy about it works so well. There are multiple threads on this board from folks that GAL very very well. And then have their WASs start wondering what the heck they are doing. Accusations of them seeing someone usually follow (which is always so hypocritical!). But GAL should be done without expectations, which is why it needs to be tightly-coupled with detachment. Otherwise you will do GAL with one eye looking over your shoulder to see if your WAW is noticing. The key is to not care if she notices or not, and GAL anyway!
In fact, I feel like if I can get away with not telling her who I'll be hanging out with, the better. She tends to take whatever I say or do the complete opposite of what my intentions are, so if I were to say I'm hanging out with X, rather than her getting jealous she would probably have the mindset instead that "Ok, he's moving on, good, now I don't have to worry about his feelings any longer! Let's file this puppy and get it over with!"
All LBS worry about this. "If I am coy with GAL then they'll think I don't care anymore and it will speed up their leaving." In 90% of the cases the opposite actually happens. The WAS gets so intrigued by the changes that they set out to find out what is going on rather than moving anything forward. My W was on the path for D full speed, until I started to GAL with detachment. The better I got at GAL and detaching the slower she headed down the path she was on. It went from "I am so excited to get a place of my own!" to "God hates divorce, I know that. So I want to not want a D."
DBing is no guarantee, but in my experience it sure has better odds than pursuit and pressure.
Good words of wisdom, Steve. I appreciate it! I’m getting to where I need to but it seems like a slow process.
Over the last couple days, I've seriously contemplated reaching out to my MIL. My W hasn't told her parents anything about what's going on. Back when the first A took place 5 years ago, I made my W text her mom and tell her what she'd done to me. Probably not the right thing to do, but the point is, my MIL knows her D betrayed me back then.
I believe PuppyDogTails gave sound advise in this area. Dig through my quotes threads (like#3).
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2045992#Post2045992RC,
It seems like both Puppy and Allen sort of advocate exposing it in their different quotes in your thread. Is that true or am I not reading thing correctly?
Do not do it! I guarantee it will blow up in your face.
It seems like both Puppy and Allen sort of advocate exposing it in their different quotes in your thread. Is that true or am I not reading thing correctly?
MWD is against exposure. Most people do it wrong and for the wrong reasons. Just do your research. Make sure you understand both sides of the coin before you make a decision.
Otherwise, yes, it will blow up in your face.
Update:
I left last weekend for my meeting, which was on Monday, and took the weekend to GAL. Was in the hotel room on Sunday afternoon watching football when I noticed odd behavior on our outdoor security camera. W had a babysitter come over and long story short, I found out she went on a bike ride with OM. After the bike ride was over, I asked her how it was. She replied. I then sent her a text "so are you ready to admit this OM is more than what you've led on? I know you went on the bike ride with him." (She's tried to maintain all along that they are just "friends" yada yada yada when I've expressed to her that a third party can't be involved in our M if we are trying to work on things). She asked me "how do I know that," to which I just told her "I know that he was."
So, I immediately decided there was no way I could function in a meeting that next morning and decided to head for home Sunday. Didn't tell her I was. We exchanged a few text messages following the ones described above to which most of them were her telling me he was "passing through" and she asked him to meet with her so she could end things with him in a "respectful" manner. She insisted there was no intimacy. That they went on a bike ride and then she told him she was ceasing contact with him so that she can have a clear mind in trying to decide what to do. I told her I wasn't sure I believe her but that time would tell if she was telling the truth or not. When I got home, she sent me this big long message about what her and her therapist discussed at their last session, which was basically shedding some light on sexual abuse that took place while she was a teenager and went on into her early 20s. It was very graphic and wasn't just a couple times here and there. I knew this person had sexually abused her but I didn't know to what extent it had taken place. I thought it was just one time. Not that it took place over the course of 6+ years. She had never told anyone, ever, about any of this prior to sharing it with her IC and then me on Sunday night. I told her that I was so incredibly sorry that she had to go through that and has held it in for so long but that I appreciated her sharing it with me and if there was anything I could do I would.
Yesterday we had our 2nd couples session. I was hesitant to go, as I sort of referenced in previous posts but decided to move forward with it since the OM was "supposedly" out of the picture now. She informed both ICs (mine and hers) about what transpired on Sunday and also told them the meeting was to shut down their communication moving forward. She told me prior that her IC told her that if she does end it, "it needs to be for her and no one else" and she mentioned that in the session. My IC asked her in the session what obstacles she sees as reasons why we can't work on R moving forward and she didn't have an answer to that which I found a little odd but also maybe enlightening I guess? She seems to want out but if she wanted to work on things she can't pinpoint why she's concerned we couldn't make it work.... She did mention that she hasn't completely shut out the possibility of R with me, that it as never entered her mind that she is "just done." She went on to say that she just needs to make sure that that decision is, in fact, her decision and not because it's what I want. Which I get and respect and probably want. If things are going to work, we both need to be 100%
Her whole issue with the M seems to be that she's always disregarded her feelings and felt as though her feelings need to align with mine. She never felt as though she should stand up for what she thought or felt and that it was her "job" to "make me happy" throughout the M. While I continue to wonder when and what these things she's referring to are, I guess in the end it doesn't really matter if that's how she's felt.
So in the session yesterday, I floated this idea out to everyone. I told them that I'm afraid of the possibility that even if she does want to R, she, in her own words, has had so much trouble in the past differentiating what she wants with her feelings of needing to provide me with what I want, that she is trying her hardest to not feel as though she wants to R because that would then align with how I feel and therefore maybe she doesn't trust herself in that decision (confusing, I know!). I validated her feelings throughout the session but did voice this one concern I had. I think it was great insight on my part because I sort of noticed both ICs kind of nod in approval or satisfaction for what I was trying to say.
It kind of makes sense though....if she's working so hard at trying to be true to her self and true to what she feels, I suppose she might have trouble with coming to the conclusion that she wants to R since she can't differentiate whether that is what she really feels or is afraid she's falling back into her thought process from the past and simply wanting what I want. Almost as if she doesn't trust herself, yet, to know whether those feelings are true or not.
So, we still stand where we've been the past 6 weeks. I told her I had every intention of giving her time and space moving forward and I was doing a good job of it until I found out about the rendezvous with the OM on Sunday. I told her if he is truly out of the picture now, that I can absolutely give her the time and space she's looking for. I said I respect everyone's opinions on the subject, but I honest to God think that the continual communication with OM from BD until 4 days ago was absolutely an external influence. She doesn't seem to want to agree with that assessment but I think it was and maybe it was subconsciously for her and she didn't realize it. Regardless, it wasn't helping, let's put it that way. It feels like we've lost 6 weeks of this limbo period because of it.
She starts a new job next week. Commute to it is an hour each way. She will have less time at home with the kids which will be hard on everyone. However, maybe the 2 hour commute each day will give her some of that time and space she's looking for to reflect on what she really wants. With us still living in the same house and working together, the idea of time and space is nice but almost unrealistic up until this point. She acknowledged the same in our session as well. Her having a new job will give her more of that. I don't think she has any plans of moving out in the near future. We discussed that in the session as well. I voiced my opinion that I would like for her to continue living in our house, at least for the kids sake, until a decision is actually made. I did follow up though that I would understand if she didn't feel the same. She never really responded that she thought she needed to move out so I believe the plan moving forward is for her to continue living there.
I told her that I'm willing to wait it out for awhile until she gives me an answer one way or the other. Up until this point, she has said she has had no desire to R. But, like I said before, I kind of wonder if the OM has something to do with that. The other "obstacle" my IC brought up was fatigue on her part. Not only is she having to deal with these M issues, but also ALL of the trauma that's happened to her is coming to a head at the exact same time. Fatigue could absolutely be an issue. Just so much to deal with all at once. One of those is more than enough to deal with at any given time let alone both simultaneously.
In the session I explained my mentality moving forward is to not come to her with anything pertaining to our R for 2 reasons: 1) to give her the time and space she's asking for and 2) because I need to start emotionally detaching from this. I've been trying like hell to save our M thus far (in all the wrong ways, I know!) but regardless, I've been trying to do what I thought was best at the time to save it. And, while I'm going to remain hopeful, I also need to be realistic and essentially start protecting and looking out for myself and preparing for the strong possibility that this doesn't work out. I'd rather start preparing for that now than be blindsided in the future with her informing me that she's 100% out. I've had 6 weeks to grieve over this whole situation so I need to start moving on.I told her I'll wait but I'm not going to wait forever.
We both took the kids around trick-or-treating last night and had supper with some friends and their kids last night as well. I'm was feeling a little depressed this morning that that might have been the last holiday as a "family," but I'm doing a little better now. Trying not to think about the negatives and focusing on the positives.
Good job on not revealing your source of intel.
Never reveal sources of Intel.
Never reveal too much.
Never reveal everything.
This is more powerful:
H"W, when was the last time you spoke with OM?"
W"Three weeks ago."
H"We both know you are lying right now. Please tell me the truth."
See the difference?
Just be very aware that most affairs will keep going deeper.
I wish you well during this.
Good job on not revealing your source of intel.
Never reveal sources of Intel.
Never reveal too much.
Never reveal everything.
This is more powerful:
H"W, when was the last time you spoke with OM?"
W"Three weeks ago."
H"We both know you are lying right now. Please tell me the truth."
See the difference?
Just be very aware that most affairs will keep going deeper.
I wish you well during this.
Oh, I'm fully aware. Not sure if I'll ever know whether or not its continuing. I'm trying to not snoop. I also feel like maybe karma might start rearing it's ugly head and I'll stumble upon it somehow.
Even if I don't, I guess I'm going to 'act as if' it isn't continuing for my own sanity. It will help me in detaching and not feel the need to confront her about him or fall into sharing my thoughts and feelings anymore. I now know that's been the my biggest mistakes thus far.
Not snooping is to protect you emotionally. If you are strong enough to control your reactions, then Intel always helps. I know PuppyDogTails was very good at gathering intel and not revealing his sources. He was the affair busting expert.
Was in the hotel room on Sunday afternoon watching football when I noticed odd behavior on our outdoor security camera. W had a babysitter come over and long story short, I found out she went on a bike ride with OM. After the bike ride was over, I asked her how it was. She replied. I then sent her a text "so are you ready to admit this OM is more than what you've led on? I know you went on the bike ride with him." (She's tried to maintain all along that they are just "friends" yada yada yada when I've expressed to her that a third party can't be involved in our M if we are trying to work on things). She asked me "how do I know that," to which I just told her "I know that he was."
I wish you would have posted here first. To me, this makes it very clear that you are spying on her. Sometimes, it's better to take some time, collect your thoughts, and make a plan. Confrontation is just that....confrontation. But it doesnt really mean anything unless you can back it up with clear actions/boundaries. What was the end of result of this, exactly...? It isnt like you know clearly what went on while they were gone. Ive never heard of two people going out for a bike ride to decide to .... stop talking to each other. That feels like a conversation you have where you meet somewhere and go your separate ways....not somewhere when you then have to ride back for however long together. Whether or not they did anything physical on the bike ride isnt that important....it just doesnt make sense that THAT would be how they end contact.
When I got home, she sent me this big long message about what her and her therapist discussed at their last session, which was basically shedding some light on sexual abuse that took place while she was a teenager and went on into her early 20s. It was very graphic and wasn't just a couple times here and there. I knew this person had sexually abused her but I didn't know to what extent it had taken place. I thought it was just one time. Not that it took place over the course of 6+ years. She had never told anyone, ever, about any of this prior to sharing it with her IC and then me on Sunday night. I told her that I was so incredibly sorry that she had to go through that and has held it in for so long but that I appreciated her sharing it with me and if there was anything I could do I would.
That said, it is definitely a good thing that she felt comfortable enough with you to share this kind of information.
She informed both ICs (mine and hers) about what transpired on Sunday and also told them the meeting was to shut down their communication moving forward. She told me prior that her IC told her that if she does end it, "it needs to be for her and no one else" and she mentioned that in the session.
Im confused by this statement. I thought she
did end it? Whats with the "if"?
I told her that I'm willing to wait it out for awhile until she gives me an answer one way or the other.
Im having some trouble understanding why this is such a 'given' for her. From what I can recall, this woman has had multiple affairs with all kinds of deceit. Why is it that you are going to put your life on hold while she figures out if she wants to be with you? You phrase this as if it's a given that if she says "Wanted, I want to be with you", that you will be right there waiting with open arms. If youre willing to put yourself as Plan B regardless of what she does, then why would she choose that path?
In the session I explained my mentality moving forward is to not come to her with anything pertaining to our R for 2 reasons: 1) to give her the time and space she's asking for and 2) because I need to start emotionally detaching from this. I've been trying like hell to save our M thus far (in all the wrong ways, I know!) but regardless, I've been trying to do what I thought was best at the time to save it. And, while I'm going to remain hopeful, I also need to be realistic and essentially start protecting and looking out for myself and preparing for the strong possibility that this doesn't work out. I'd rather start preparing for that now than be blindsided in the future with her informing me that she's 100% out. I've had 6 weeks to grieve over this whole situation so I need to start moving on.I told her I'll wait but I'm not going to wait forever.
I agree that this is kind of what you should be doing. But....I dont understand why youre laying this all out to your W. As V says regularly...."cards, chest, close in any order". If you were trying to start dating someone, you wouldnt be like "Im going to call you every third day so that I appear interested but not TOO interested. Im going to send you flowers after 2 weeks and chocolate after 6. I also want to take you to this special place in a month, etc."
Speak with actions. Just do the things you think are best. You dont need to explain every little detail to her.
In any case....how is GAL going?
And did you meet up with your friend X?
I wish you would have posted here first. To me, this makes it very clear that you are spying on her. Sometimes, it's better to take some time, collect your thoughts, and make a plan. Confrontation is just that....confrontation. But it doesnt really mean anything unless you can back it up with clear actions/boundaries. What was the end of result of this, exactly...? It isnt like you know clearly what went on while they were gone. Ive never heard of two people going out for a bike ride to decide to .... stop talking to each other. That feels like a conversation you have where you meet somewhere and go your separate ways....not somewhere when you then have to ride back for however long together. Whether or not they did anything physical on the bike ride isnt that important....it just doesnt make sense that THAT would be how they end contact.
I wasn't intending on spying. Our security camera sends notifications anytime there is activity. I saw a babysitter show up so naturally I got curious.
That said, it is definitely a good thing that she felt comfortable enough with you to share this kind of information.
I felt like it was good thing as well.
Im confused by this statement. I thought she did end it? Whats with the "if"?
I probably didn't explain that in the best way. In our joint session, she started out by telling the ICs what had transpired since the last session. She explained the meeting with OM on Sunday and that I found out about it. She was trying to "justify" her meeting with OM to cut off communication by explaining in front of both me and my IC that her IC, in their last individual session, told her that if she chooses to cut off communication with OM it "should be for her and for her clarity of mind and for no one else." I thought this was sort of weird to explain but I suppose she didn't want me thinking she cut off communication "for me." I don't know... Long story short, in her mind SHE decided to cut off communication with OM for HER own good (not because I wanted her to or for me) and that is why they met up on Sunday -- to tell him it's over until she decided what's going to happen with our M.
Im having some trouble understanding why this is such a 'given' for her. From what I can recall, this woman has had multiple affairs with all kinds of deceit. Why is it that you are going to put your life on hold while she figures out if she wants to be with you? You phrase this as if it's a given that if she says "Wanted, I want to be with you", that you will be right there waiting with open arms. If youre willing to put yourself as Plan B regardless of what she does, then why would she choose that path?
I'd love some suggestions on what to do. I know a lot of other situations here have lasted longer than mine. I think it's safe to say that my W has been flooded with all sorts of feelings that don't just pertain to our M. Dealing with the trauma she's had in her past is also weighing heavily on her. Maybe I'm being naive and hopeful in thinking that it isn't just our M that she's struggling with right now. I'm trying to be the lighthouse and keep the road paved smooth back. But I'd love some suggestions or tips on what to do and/or what I shouldn't continue to do. I'm not willing to be Plan B. I think now that OM is supposedly out of the picture that might help matters. Again, maybe that's wishful thinking and either it won't change a bit or maybe he's truly not out of the picture. Unfortunately, I can't control either of those things. I'm just trying to be AMOAFWL.
I agree that this is kind of what you should be doing. But....I dont understand why youre laying this all out to your W. As V says regularly...."cards, chest, close in any order". If you were trying to start dating someone, you wouldnt be like "Im going to call you every third day so that I appear interested but not TOO interested. Im going to send you flowers after 2 weeks and chocolate after 6. I also want to take you to this special place in a month, etc."
Speak with actions. Just do the things you think are best. You dont need to explain every little detail to her.
I kind of agree I probably shouldn't have said all of that. At the time, I was trying to explain that while I'm willing to wait awhile, I'm not going to wait forever. That I'm going to start preparing to move on on my own. Maybe it didn't come across that way to her, I don't know. But that was my intentions in saying all of that.
In any case....how is GAL going?
And did you meet up with your friend X?
It's going pretty good I'm trying to GAL as much as I can.
I did meet up with her. Had dinner together and it was good to catch up. I vented about my situation a little and she did a good job listening and validating what I had to say. It was kind of nice to talk to a friend about everything.
[I'm not willing to be Plan B. I think now that OM is supposedly out of the picture that might help matters.
W,
Just so you are aware, there doesn't have to be an OM for you to be plan B.
[I'm not willing to be Plan B. I think now that OM is supposedly out of the picture that might help matters.
W,
Just so you are aware, there doesn't have to be an OM for you to be plan B.
Yes, I understand that. I guess the part that keeps me "around" so to speak is that she has told me a couple times, including just two days ago in the joint session, that throughout these past 6 weeks she's never once made up her mind that she's leaving 100%. She's clearly leaning that way but she has never said, point blank, I'm done. She admitted she hasn't had the desire to make things work yet. But, like I said previously, I think that desire might have been influenced by OM and me not giving her time and space.
I think I shared a text message exchange in my thread a couple weeks ago where she said she needs time to think everything over so that a decision isn't made based on high emotions one way or the other. That she needs time to think about what exactly she wants.
I'm willing to give her that. I don't think I've done a good job of giving her time and space up until our last joint session. For a variety of reasons. A few being that we work together, still live under the same roof and obviously have 3 little kids we share and need tending to.
I won't wait around for long, but I guess I feel as though I need to give her at least some time for her to really think about what's next. While I do that, I'm going to prepare for the worst but remain a little hopeful that she decides she wants to try to make our M work.
Now, if wanting to R ends up being her decision, she isn't going to just walk back in to my open arms. She is going to have to prove to me that she's 100% committed to making it work. And that isn't going to happen by just her saying she is. She needs to prove that through consistent action.
Sometimes Plan A is finding a new Plan A, as LH19 alludes too.
My W's EA ended shortly after I found out about it. But I was still Plan B. Plan A was another guy online that was starting to become EA2.0. And since that wasn't progressing as quickly the next step was dating websites. In fact, I was more like Plan D or E.
Now, if wanting to R ends up being her decision, she isn't going to just walk back in to my open arms. She is going to have to prove to me that she's 100% committed to making it work. And that isn't going to happen by just her saying she is. She needs to prove that through consistent action.
Easy to say but harder to do. You are on the right track if you stay committed to what you wrote above. It's the only way it woks out long term.
This is my opinion only and shouldn't change the way you handle yourself. I highly doubt OM is completely out of the picture.
Sometimes Plan A is finding a new Plan A, as LH19 alludes too.
My W's EA ended shortly after I found out about it. But I was still Plan B. Plan A was another guy online that was starting to become EA2.0. And since that wasn't progressing as quickly the next step was dating websites. In fact, I was more like Plan D or E.
So, what do you suggest I do? I feel like I need to give her time and space to work through what she's dealing with along with working through what her true feelings are about me and ultimately our M. If she ends up deciding she wants out and tells me that that is her decision, I can't control her feelings wrt that. I don't want to be Plan B but I'm not sure, judging by what she's expressed to me, she completely knows what she wants yet.....
It's very common for the WAS/WS to convey feelings of confusion. Sometimes I think they convey that as a way of saving your feelings. They really know what they want (out) but don't want to hurt you.
Other times they truly are dealing with an internal struggle. They truly are conflicted. They are excited by the propects of a new life, but feel bad about ruining other people's lives. My wife described it as being at the McDonald's drive thru where you pull up and have to decide to go into the right or left order line. And not sure which is the best one to choose.
But in either case you're right. You need to give her the time and space to decide.
Now, if wanting to R ends up being her decision, she isn't going to just walk back in to my open arms. She is going to have to prove to me that she's 100% committed to making it work. And that isn't going to happen by just her saying she is. She needs to prove that through consistent action.
Easy to say but harder to do. You are on the right track if you stay committed to what you wrote above. It's the only way it woks out long term.
This is my opinion only and shouldn't change the way you handle yourself. I highly doubt OM is completely out of the picture.
I'm with you 100% on your opinion. I can't control that, though. A part of me thinks maybe their conversation was more or less, "Let's cool it for now and then when the marriage is over we can start communicating again." I won't ever know for sure, but the fact that they met and talked in person and there wasn't just a simple message sent saying "We can't be in contact anymore. I need to figure out what I want," makes me wonder if there wasn't some sort of a 'plan' moving forward. That's just a hunch though.
In the joint therapy session, she was trying to talk him up by saying, "He was so gracious and understanding and he even mentioned to me that this can't be something where you cheat down the road. It has to be a complete cut off. No reaching out or anything of that nature until you decide that we can communicate openly and freely." I'm paraphrasing because as I was hearing this I was thinking to myself sarcastically, 'wow, he's such a stand up guy!' (SMFH!) I can see right through his douchiness.
At the end of the day, IF she decides she wants to work on the M and claims to be 100% in on doing so, I would like anyone's thoughts on this, but in thinking ahead, my first response is going to be: "Ok, well I want to trust you that it's over with OM and I believe a way for you to start that process is for you to prove to me that there has been no contact with OM since your last meeting (this past Sunday). I don't care to read anything prior to that because at this point, we should focus on the present and what we need to do moving forward, but I would like confirmation that he has been out of the picture like you assured me is the case and was the reason for the meeting/bike ride."
If she agrees to shows me her phone and I can at least see proof that the last contact with him was prior to this past Sunday, that would help with starting to regain some trust I've lost in her. If she doesn't agree to show me or if I find some communication in the meantime, I'm not sure how I should proceed. I'm just trying to think ahead and be prepared. I think watching her send him a message stating something like, "its over, no more contract, I'm fully committed to trying to make our M work," would suffice and then having her delete his number, the app(s) she's using to contact him, block him on social media, etc. would work but I also don't want to project as being weak.
It's very common for the WAS/WS to convey feelings of confusion. Sometimes I think they convey that as a way of saving your feelings. They really know what they want (out) but don't want to hurt you.
After our therapy session, I told her, "I'm already hurt. I already have a suspicion this is over and I'm preparing as though it is. So, I just want the truth. If the truth hurts, it's not going to hurt any less down the road than it will now. I will respect your opinion and will appreciate your truthfulness." She validated me after I said that but never went on to say anything one way or another. I do feel like with all of the personal issues pertaining to her trauma is playing a major factor. Probably a fatigue factor like my IC brought up. W admitted that after IC said that, she agreed with it. And honestly, it does make a lot of sense. So, my gut tells me she is truly conflicted but again, I'm trying not to believe anything she says, either.
Thanks for the insight, Steve.
"Ok, well I want to trust you that it's over with OM and I believe a way for you to start that process is for you to prove to me that there has been no contact with OM since your last meeting (this past Sunday). I don't care to read anything prior to that because at this point, we should focus on the present and what we need to do moving forward, but I would like confirmation that he has been out of the picture like you assured me is the case and was the reason for the meeting/bike ride."
Hi Wanted,
Hopefully you don't mind me being blunt.
You talk too much.
Is one of your non-negotiables for reconciliation "Full transparency"?
If it is, do some research here. I am sure I have examples in my quote list.
I think this is the mindset:
H"W, how can you rebuild my trust?"
And you haven't even got to this step of the processes.
W,
What I am trying to tell you is that you need time and space to figure this out.
Below are two responses from you in one day. Your W has had multiple affairs and you most likely just caught her in the act again and your so quick to welcome her back that you are thinking about being plan B.
Again where is your line in the sand?
At what point does it become W needs time and space to forget out if this is what he wants.
I'm not willing to be Plan B.
I don't want to be Plan B but I'm not sure.
And to be clear, he is talking about with her, not here.
I wasn't intending on spying. Our security camera sends notifications anytime there is activity. I saw a babysitter show up so naturally I got curious.
I understand it wasnt your intent. But within minutes of her getting home, you talk to her about OM....makes it pretty clear that you must have been watching....something. It's not like you heard from the grapevine or whatever. My point is less about that and more about collecting info/intel and then confronting once you have the story. Now, all you can do is 'take her word for it' and I wouldnt want to put myself in that position where I am trusting someone who has shown repeatedly to be untrustworthy.
to tell him it's over until she decided what's going to happen with our M.
That doesnt sound like 'cutting off communication'. That sounds like a holding pattern. Again, I wouldnt want to be in a position where my WIFE is choosing between me and another guy. How does that build her respect and attraction towards YOU?
I'm trying to be the lighthouse and keep the road paved smooth back.
A lighthouse doesnt go running off after the boat to bring it to shore. Right now, you seem eager to reassure her that she can take time and do what she needs and youll be right there waiting for her. To me, that is putting pressure on her....like youre going to be checking the clock since you "arent going to wait forever". So give her the space she is looking for. When she's around, be gone doing some kind of GAL. Leave her alone as much as you can. Stop TALKING so much to her. Set some goals for things you want to do and the person you want to be ad ACHIEVE them.
WAITING is such a passive word. What can you DO that is active?
I'm not willing to be Plan B.
You say that....and yet you also say that you are
waiting to see if your wife will choose to be with you.
That sounds like Plan B behavior.
It's going pretty good I'm trying to GAL as much as I can.
Its hard. Every instinct you has pushes you against GAL. Like cutting your trip off.
What is on tap for this week?
I wasn't intending on spying. Our security camera sends notifications anytime there is activity. I saw a babysitter show up so naturally I got curious.
I understand it wasnt your intent. But within minutes of her getting home, you talk to her about OM....makes it pretty clear that you must have been watching....something. It's not like you heard from the grapevine or whatever. My point is less about that and more about collecting info/intel and then confronting once you have the story. Now, all you can do is 'take her word for it' and I wouldnt want to put myself in that position where I am trusting someone who has shown repeatedly to be untrustworthy.
One other point on this. You should drop anything that trips you up. We often tell newbies to get off of social media. "I wasn't snooping on her page, but someone commented on her update and it showed up in my feed!" LBSs use these kinds of things for "excuses" for stumbling across information about their WAS.
So when was the last time you had a security issue? Would it be a real problem to block the security cam notifications or shut it down completely?
Guess what I had security cams too. My W said it made her feel like I was watching her. And admittedly I did use them for that. One of the things I did was take them down. It showed her I was letting go.
Who is the easier spouse to leave (all other things being equal), a terrible abusive monster, or a genuinely good person? If you left an abusive monster how would you feel? Free? Vindicated? Empowered?
If you left a genuinely good person, and with the passage of time it became apparent to you that your issues have more to do with how you feel about yourself than anyone else, how would you feel? Shame? guilt? embarrassment? failure?
If someone evokes the feelings of guilt, shame and embarrassment within you, are you likely to want to interact with them more or less?
Her avoidance of you has everything to do with how she feels about herself and very little to do with you. She's not looking at you, she's looking in the mirror and doesn't like what she sees.
You will change that narrative when you're having a kick-ass life and she feels left behind. When you get there, I'll be you that she won't be hesitant to interact with you at all.
Acc, I took this comment from another thread and I want to tell you that it makes me feel a lot better and gives me a different perspective on my sitch because my wife has pretty much come out and told me she feels this way due to the affairs, infidelity, etc. I helps me understand her POV so to speak. I'm glad I was reading ballast's thread and came across this. Thank you.
Small update:
W is taking a new job on Friday. Last Friday after work I was in the MBR and I decided to sit down on my computer and just write out some thoughts I had about W and I working together for the past 9 years. At the time, I wasn't for sure if I was going to actually give it to her or not. The letter started out that I was writing this to her not as her husband, but as her co-worker and business partner. I went on to talk about how I probably took her for granted in our work and that I truly appreciated everything she did for our business and that her determination and perseverance are amazing attributes that will serve her well in her new job. I also wrote that I felt so blessed to be able to spend 9 years working alongside her.
So, after I wrote it and was rereading it, I really broke down hard. Of course, the door was open and W was walking by and saw me. She came in and sat on the bed next to me and started crying as well telling me she's so sorry for this. We had a talk about everything and in my moment of weakness showed her what I had wrote. She was extremely grateful for it. (at least that's what she told me).
I then left Sat morning for the weekend to GAL. My IC session was on Monday morning so while I was driving to that I thought about something she had said to me during that talk on Friday night. I wanted some clarification on what she meant so I could share it with my IC. So I texted her asking for it. Here was her response:
I guess I meant what we had discussed basically at the couples session. That I struggle putting my feelings into words that I feel will be “good enough” to understand. A part of me really wants to be able to list everything out cleanly and neatly in list form, as your IC wanted me to be able to do… but to be honest, that feels sort of impossible.
I think we both agree that this revolution in our lives requires completely starting over. I think we have talked about and both agree on that. That nothing has or will ever be the same before this experience. Not our relationship, and not you and I ourselves. But again, and it kills me to think of how hurtful this is, but I simply do not want to start over with you. I continue to not be urged to move closer to you. I think it would be possible if I were fully dedicated to you. I think it would be hard as hell, but I believe we could try all options and put in the work. But that does not feel right to me in my heart. I think part of it has to do with how much irreparable pain I’ve caused you. It consumes me. And I know you said that forgiveness is possible for you if we throw away the old relationship and start anew, but I’m not sure that level of forgiveness is possible for me, towards myself and towards the toxicity we have created for 12 years. I feel that the lack of communication, lack of intimacy, my affair(s), the lack of “caring” we both share towards one another, verbal and non-verbal criticizing/attacks on one another, the lack of attention and time we have put into our relationship, on and on, all stem from the deep disrespect we have grown to foster in our marriage and toward one another. And that our marriage is too deeply intertwined with dishonesty, betrayal, and disrespect. I have not treated you as a husband should be treated. I don’t know how to “define” all of these feelings. I don’t know if that’s the idea your IC was referencing when she said there is “too much water under the bridge” or not.
I didn't respond to the text and went to IC. These statements I guess sort of line up with what Acc posted and I quoted above, I would say. Nothing has really happened in the meantime. W went to her IC yesterday not sure how it went because I didn't ask which was something I had been doing the past. I'm continuing to do my best DBing. Aside from the Friday night break down and the text asking for the clarification.
I didn't respond to the text and went to IC. These statements I guess sort of line up with what Acc posted and I quoted above, I would say. Nothing has really happened in the meantime. W went to her IC yesterday not sure how it went because I didn't ask which was something I had been doing the past. I'm continuing to do my best DBing. Aside from the Friday night break down and the text asking for the clarification.
The problem Wanted, and this is hard for newbies to understand, is that doing your best DBing is consistency. What happened Friday, and then the text, that is pressure. That is pursuit. And it undermines everything else you might be doing right. It is such a temptation to look at DBing and say "well, I've been doing it 95% of the way well, but failing in 5%". That 5% will kill you. And it is necessary for you to understand that. DBing cannot be successful without consistency.
Now, when someone messes up and makes a mistake, there is nothing you can do about that. All you can do is to resolve to start over and be better from that point forward.CONSISTENCY over time is the key. Go read all these other threads. You will see those that struggle the most are the ones that have the most mistakes. "I am DBing, but I made a mistake last night." "I have been DBing consistently for the last 5 days but this morning slipped up." Every slip up takes you backwards. You lose ground. True all you can do is start trying again, but learning from those mistakes is paramount. It is impossible to be successful without learning from your slip up and moving forward.
The letter. The text. They all give her the same message: he is still attached to me and I can have him back anytime I want him. The garbage about crying due to the pain she caused. And saying she feels like she is past the point of no return due the irreparable pain she has caused is ALL bunk. It is an effort to "let you down easy". The fact is that deep down she knows she can have you back.....anytime she wants. And that makes her not want it.
That is why DBing is effective. Because once you truly detach, let go, GAL (showing her you will be fine without her), and at time same time 180 on your own toxic behavior, that is when she feels like she is losing you, that she won't be able to have you back. And for many (not all) people that makes them want you back! It is the weirdest dynamic.
So what you've done with the letter. And the text. Is showed her that she can still have you back. Her excuse for not being open to it is all of the words (and I emphasis words because that is all they are) that she typed in response to your text. I heard similar things verbally from my W. "I tried for 18 years!" "There is too much damage!" "The relationship has suffered too much trauma to be saved." It is all excuses for her to continue down this wayward path that she is on.
DBing shows her that not only won't you stand in her way, but that you are going to be just fine no matter what she decides. When you DB really well you will know it because she will come to you and temp check you. "Is he really moving on? Or can I still have him back if I want him!?" Sometimes it takes the form of an accusation "I know you much be seeing someone!" But it will come.
In my sitch, when I started to be very consistent in my DBing, my W started to question her decision. I got counseling started, I GAL, I 180'd, and I detached. I talked to a lawyer. Offered to help her find a job. Finally quit snooping and confronting her. And all of that said to her "plan B is slipping away, and plan A has no solid footing!" And that made her question herself. At the same time by DBing was doing one thing she never expected......it was making her respect me again.
Marriages don't die due to a lack of attraction. Attraction is a red-herring. A W has to be able to respect her husband to feel attracted to him. You work on gaining back her respect, you will have a chance of attracting her back, and that can save your marriage. And guess what....crying over a letter you wrote and texting her seeking needy reassurance ain't going to do it!!
W,
Boy you are still learning the hard way. Trying to get a reaction from her and it ends up blowing up in your face. Its fine to write those letters and then rip them up or burn them. I can guarantee that letter had the opposite effect on her. She's starting to feel sorry for you. That's not attractive. You keep this up and you won't even be plan B you will be plan C or D.
Here's what I hear in the text blah, blah, blah yes it could work if we were both committed but I don't feel like it.
Same as everyone here. Again I will quote my MC " I have a 100% success rate when both parties are committed and divorce is not an option".
No more letters, no more relationship talks, no more clarifying texts. Focus on your kids, exercise, detach and GAL.
Steve and LH,
I appreciate all of it. I know I need to focus all of my attention (outside of work and kids, of course) into successfully DBing. It is paramount for myself. That I know.
I feel like I'm getting there slowly. I no longer have the "urge" to talk R with her anymore. I guess the true test will be if she ends up coming to me to talk if I have the strength to not engage in any R talk. I think I will certainly listen and focus on it not effecting me one way or the other, but I'm done telling her what or how I feel. I've said everything I can possibly say and even if I think of more things they are just a different rendition of what's already been said. I need to continue to focus on the obvious fact that "pursuing" will only lead to a D.
A couple questions:
First, my W starts her new job on Friday. We've always worked together for those of you who haven't read about my sitch previously. When she gets home on Friday after her first day, do I ask her how it went, etc.? It seems to me that I should but wanted to run it by everyone. I've been trying not to initiate random conversation with her but I feel like this wouldn't fall into the category of "random."
Second, we had to discuss what the plans are for Thanksgiving, maybe a bit prematurely, but we had other family members asking what our plans were so they could plan accordingly. It was from my side of the family, so I approached W last week about what her/our plans were going to be. She told me her brother is planning on being back to her parent's house for Thanksgiving, so she would like to go out there (4 hour drive from where we live). I sort of implied that it was up to her whether or not I would attend as well or not. I don't remember her exact response but it was somewhat apparent that she wanted me to come with. So, in essence, I was invited to share in the holiday with her, her family and our kids.
Not to go into too much detail, but Monday was not a good day for me. For a number of reasons. A lot of work stuff didn't go as planned, had some car issues with these dumb keyless fobs and push button start they have now and I suppose on top of all of that, the text I referred to before from W before my IC session didn't help either. Needless to say, I was kind of in one of those moods that I probably should be in more often to help me detach. I don't think I was angry or resentful but regardless, I was in the #@$% it mindset and at that point didn't really care whether this worked out in the end or not. Like I said, I need to probably be in that mindset permanently. So, I got to thinking about whether or not I should take W up on having Thanksgiving together. Part of me really wanted to just turn it down and then just go somewhere by myself for the long weekend to sort of "get away" and maybe recalibrate. I brought this up to my IC and she immediately told me if W invited me that I should go and that it would be nice for the kids to have me there as well more for the fact of not having to answer questions why Daddy isn't with them.
I was just wanting some advice from some of you guys? Do I just go along and try to enjoy possibly one last holiday together as a "family" or should I tell her I might just make my own plans? I don't think I would go celebrate the holiday with my side of the family because 1) I would be peppered with tons of questions about what's going on and 2) it would be pretty depressing spending it with them and not having at least my kids there and knowing they were all together with W's family. I would much prefer just going somewhere by myself.
And to be clear, he is talking about with her, not here.
Yes with her. Thanks for clarifying. Steve is wise. listen to every word this man speaks. Always ask yourself, what would Steve recommend.
Boy you are still learning the hard way.
Do you know the hot stove story? Please don't touch the stove, it is hot, you will get burned if you touch it.
Dude, I know this is hard. It is one of the hardest things to go through. This is one big test. Women test men. Pass this test.
When she gets home on Friday after her first day, do I ask her how it went, etc.? It seems to me that I should but wanted to run it by everyone.
NO. Let her come to you.
so I approached W last week about what her/our plans were going to be. She told me her brother is planning on being back to her parent's house for Thanksgiving, so she would like to go out there (4 hour drive from where we live). I sort of implied that it was up to her whether or not I would attend as well or not. I don't remember her exact response but it was somewhat apparent that she wanted me to come with. So, in essence, I was invited to share in the holiday with her, her family and our kids.
Why did I highlight the above words?
I like this statement:
"I decided I will be spending thanksgiving with my parents."
That does not mean you have to use it. You should understand why it is an option.
Is your wife committed to the marriage?
Is your wife in love with you?
Has your wife shown remorse?
Does my wife REALLY want me there?
List out many more questions like this.
Lots of YES's = YES go.
Lot's of NO's = Stop pursing and don't go.
Really think about each of your choices and all the REAL consequences. Make a choice and live with the consequences.
Is it better for you to not go and have her miss you?
Or is it better to go show all your positive changes?
Or go and have a chance to do a 5% that kills you?
I sort of implied that it was up to her whether or not I would attend as well or not.
I would be curious to know the exact conversation. If it was you saying "would it be ok if I go with you?" That's weak.
Right after my W filed for D I was invited to her Aunts for Easter. I declined because it would have been award for me. She took the kids to her Aunts I went to my moms. The kids asked where I was the ex said Grandmas. No more questions.
If you don't want to go don't go. If you want to have one more family Thanksgiving then go.
It's really all about your expectations. Whether you ask her how her day went or you don't it's not going to change anything. Whether you go to Thanksgiving or not it is not going to change anything.
I am going to be really honest with you and give you MY opinion. Based on the text your W sent you she is going to D you. Now you have two choices, you can go out like an alpha male or you can go out like a beta male. Which choice do you think has a better chance at recon?
Answered in the quote:
I like this statement:
"I decided I will be spending thanksgiving with my parents."
That does not mean you have to use it. You should understand why it is an option.
Is your wife committed to the marriage? Not at this time
Is your wife in love with you? No clue, but judging my her actions, No.
Has your wife shown remorse? Some. Not as much as I would like.
Does my wife REALLY want me there? Hard to say or read what she 'wants'.
List out many more questions like this.
Lots of YES's = YES go.
Lot's of NO's = Stop pursing and don't go.
Really think about each of your choices and all the REAL consequences. Make a choice and live with the consequences.
Is it better for you to not go and have her miss you? I'm not sure she would miss me since she will be around her family whom she doesn't see very often
Or is it better to go show all your positive changes? Probably wouldn't hurt
Or go and have a chance to do a 5% that kills you? I'm pretty adamant and confident that I won't slip up if I go.
I sort of implied that it was up to her whether or not I would attend as well or not.
I would be curious to know the exact conversation. If it was you saying "would it be ok if I go with you?" That's weak.
Right after my W filed for D I was invited to her Aunts for Easter. I declined because it would have been award for me. She took the kids to her Aunts I went to my moms. The kids asked where I was the ex said Grandmas. No more questions.
If you don't want to go don't go. If you want to have one more family Thanksgiving then go.
It's really all about your expectations. Whether you ask her how her day went or you don't it's not going to change anything. Whether you go to Thanksgiving or not it is not going to change anything.
I am going to be really honest with you and give you MY opinion. Based on the text your W sent you she is going to D you. Now you have two choices, you can go out like an alpha male or you can go out like a beta male. Which choice do you think has a better chance at recon?
I did not say "would it be ok if I go?" It was more along the lines of "I could bring the kids down to (where she's going to be working now) and you could leave on Wednesday night to head out to your parents. I'm not sure what your thoughts are on me going or not. If you would like me to go, we can just leave a car there and pick it up on the way back otherwise I will just drop them off and go back home."
It went something like that. I did NOT ask if it would be ok for me to go. I'm sure of that.
The asking about her day is more about maybe a 180 for me I guess? I don't want to be silent because she might imply that I'm mad or upset that she took this job and I don't "care" about how her first day went. If I ask and seem genuinely interested, it would show her that I care about her and how her day went and maybe show to her that I'm fine/OK with her taking this new job. I don't know....
She's told me 3-4 times that she's never once told herself that she's completely done and there is no chance at R. HOWEVER, none of her actions or frankly nothing else she has said really confirms that is what she believes or is thinking. She's just said that statement a couple different times and if I go along with the understanding to believe nothing she says, I have come to the conclusion that she's probably just saying that to appease me at this point. On the other hand, there is so much she's trying to deal with on a personal level right now I don't really know if she does know what she wants. I'm going on low expectations and assuming she wants a D and am slowly accepting it and trying to stay positive that I'll be just fine if it goes that way.
The part that really bugs, concerns and disappoints me is that I'm not really even asking her to R at this point. I'm simply asking her if she would be open to TRYING to work on our M to see if we can R. To actively work in a healthy manner (marital counseling, retrouvaille, etc.) to see if we can't make things work which we've never done, ever, in the past. I'm just astounded that she's willing to give up half of the time with our kids without even trying to see if we can make it work. This is what just shocks the hell out of me. I don't understand it.
I guess there are essentially two things that might work in my favor. 1 being the new job is going to give her way less time with the kids (1 hr commute one way), so she's going to be missing out on getting them ready for school, dropping them off at school, picking them up from school and more than likely feeding/having supper with them. 2 is financially. She's got it all budgeted out and she will just barely make ends meet with all of her financial obligations moving forward. That's if/when she moves out of our house and starts on her own. I'm a little concerned that she's just staying in the home under the guise that she's trying to decide what to do to more or less build up a little financial cushion and then when she feels comfortable financially she will move out. Not going to lie, if that's what's really going to happen, I'm not sure if our co-parenting relationship moving forward will be the best. I'll be livid. But I also don't really know what I can do about that.
I'm not sure what your thoughts are on me going or not. If you would like me to go, we can just leave a car there and pick it up on the way back otherwise I will just drop them off and go back home."
Potato Potato Tomato Tomato I would of assumed I wasn't going unless she specifically asked me to go.
The asking about her day is more about maybe a 180 for me I guess? I don't want to be silent because she might imply that I'm mad or upset that she took this job and I don't "care" about how her first day went. If I ask and seem genuinely interested, it would show her that I care about her and how her day went and maybe show to her that I'm fine/OK with her taking this new job. I don't know....
This is fine as long as you have zero expectations it changes anything. I didn't like to engage in small talk because it kept me attached while I was progressing in detaching. I would say hi, goodbye, morning, goodnight but wouldn't go out of my way to do it just wouldn't avoid it.
HOWEVER, none of her actions or frankly nothing else she has said really confirms that is what she believes or is thinking.
Ding ding ding we have a winner! We always say here look at her ACTIONS.
The part that really bugs, concerns and disappoints me is that I'm not really even asking her to R at this point. I'm simply asking her if she would be open to TRYING to work on our M to see if we can R. To actively work in a healthy manner (marital counseling, retrouvaille, etc.) to see if we can't make things work which we've never done, ever, in the past. I'm just astounded that she's willing to give up half of the time with our kids without even trying to see if we can make it work. This is what just shocks the hell out of me. I don't understand it.
Wanted there isn't one person on this board who can't say the same thing. This is the last thing that still bothers me to this day.
I guess there are essentially two things that might work in my favor. 1 being the new job is going to give her way less time with the kids (1 hr commute one way), so she's going to be missing out on getting them ready for school, dropping them off at school, picking them up from school and more than likely feeding/having supper with them.
Don't be so sure about that my friend. I am seeing this girl who admitted she likes not having her kids for a week.
I guess there are essentially two things that might work in my favor. 1 being the new job is going to give her way less time with the kids (1 hr commute one way), so she's going to be missing out on getting them ready for school, dropping them off at school, picking them up from school and more than likely feeding/having supper with them.
Don't be so sure about that my friend. I am seeing this girl who admitted she likes not having her kids for a week.
I don't know, man. Our kids are her LIFE. For as bad of a W she's been to me, she's been on the opposite end of the spectrum as a mother. I hate to even say this, but almost to a fault maybe? She would invest SO much time into the kids that our relationship was put on the back burner. We didn't devote anytime for ourselves because it was always about the kids. She hasn't really changed as a mother over these last 2 months either. She is still an amazing mother to them (aside from trying to destroy their family as they know it!) But she doesn't see it that way, "They will be just fine if we D."
Wanted there isn't one person on this board who can't say the same thing. This is the last thing that still bothers me to this day.
Amen to this ^^^^^
Don't be so sure about that my friend. I am seeing this girl who admitted she likes not having her kids for a week.
Truth ^^^^
I guess there are essentially two things that might work in my favor. 1 being the new job is going to give her way less time with the kids (1 hr commute one way), so she's going to be missing out on getting them ready for school, dropping them off at school, picking them up from school and more than likely feeding/having supper with them.
Don't be so sure about that my friend. I am seeing this girl who admitted she likes not having her kids for a week.
I don't know, man. Our kids are her LIFE. For as bad of a W she's been to me, she's been on the opposite end of the spectrum as a mother. I hate to even say this, but almost to a fault maybe? She would invest SO much time into the kids that our relationship was put on the back burner. We didn't devote anytime for ourselves because it was always about the kids. She hasn't really changed as a mother over these last 2 months either. She is still an amazing mother to them (aside from trying to destroy their family as they know it!) But she doesn't see it that way, "They will be just fine if we D."
If your wife is a WW, you would be shocked to find out what she is willing to sacrifice to pursue her "wants". Waywards are the most selfish creatures on planet Earth. There is nothing they won't burn to the ground if it means getting what they want. On that you can go to the bank.
W - My XW fully enjoys being a part time parent and getting the child support money I provide her. The last thing I struggle with is how in the hell did I even get to this point. Someone that I knew intimately for 17 years has so much resentment and anger towards someone that did nothing but be a loyal husband that was a good provider. I will never understand. The funny thing is that I got a friend request on FB from my XMIL. Like WTF?????
If it was me I would not want to spend Thanksgiving with someone that wants nothing to with me. If it was me I would go anywhere else other than with her and her family.
W, J9 has been through it man, listen to his wisdom.
J9, what did you do with your MiL's invite?
Thanks Steve.....nothing yet but it will be declined. Screw that.
How many new Alpha male traits do you have since BD?
I don't know, man. Our kids are her LIFE.
If this statement was 100% correct she would do MC with you. I don't think there is a person in the world that will deny that the kids are better off in a happy, healthy marriage which can be obtained in successful marriage counseling.
I don't know, man. Our kids are her LIFE.
If this statement was 100% correct she would do MC with you. I don't think there is a person in the world that will deny that the kids are better off in a happy, healthy marriage which can be obtained in successful marriage counseling.
I agree! Which makes me wonder where her freaking head is at...she keeps trying to convince herself that they will be "just fine" if we D. She's always been super independent, so I'm sure she probably does believe they will be "just fine." She came from a broken home due to the sexual abuse of her biological father, so that probably doesn't help her appreciation of a full, intact family. I don't know....
I just wish I could talk to her logically, but as everyone on here has warned, that will do NO good. It's all based on emotion right now. I would love to just set it all straight with her but I know for a fact that won't get me anywhere.
While I wish none of us were in this situation, unfortunately it gives me a little comfort knowing I'm not alone in wondering why she isn't open to trying to fix the M. It just seems so damn obvious that that would be the obvious and most logical solution it drives me (and all of you guys) nuts. Again, logic has no bearing in their minds, it's all emotion. But you'd think eventually some logic would come into play.....oh well, onward and upward.
At least at the end of the day I'll know I tried everything I could in my power to make it work. She probably thinks the same thing, right now, but we all know that isn't the case and eventually maybe she will realize that too. By then it'll probably be too late though.
At least at the end of the day I'll know I tried everything I could in my power to make it work. She probably thinks the same thing, right now, but we all know that isn't the case and eventually maybe she will realize that too.
Yep. I listened to my ex tell my daughter "honey we tried everything to make it work" insert LH19 eye roll. We went to like 4 MC sessions before she quit saying it wasn't working WTF?
Your learning. Do not try to use logic and reason.
If/when the time comes, I'm very afraid I won't be able to just sit there and let her say things like, "we tried everything to make it work" without responding with, "Are you ____ kidding me?!" At that point, all hope is probably lost anyway, so maybe me venting all of my frustrations on her won't matter and I should just do it.
At that point, all hope is probably lost anyway, so maybe me venting all of my frustrations on her won't matter and I should just do it.
And your back to trying to use logic and reason.
"Are you ____ kidding me?!"
Some nights I wish I had said that. Marriage workshop, at least 12 sessions of MC.
But LH is right, it's not about logic. Or at least, it's not about YOUR logic. Do you know what was the giveaway, for me? The way she phrased it at the end. "I couldn't live with myself if I didn't feel like we had tried everything." Her, her her.
At that point, all hope is probably lost anyway, so maybe me venting all of my frustrations on her won't matter and I should just do it.
And your back to trying to use logic and reason.
I know that. It's just going to be hard not to give her a hard dose of reality, logic and reason when she's on the way out the door and trying to make it sound like "she tried."
No, W didn't try. W never even had a thought about trying. -- I'd like to say that along with a lot of other things when I know for sure D is taking place and there is no turning back. Will it change the way she thinks? Of course not. But it will give me some closure in telling her what really took place and that her fairy tale of thinking she tried is just that, a fairy tale, to make herself feel better about her monumental decision to tear apart our family.
You are either with us (family) or against us. And when the time comes that she drops the real bomb, she will be against us.
D now appears to be just a matter of time, and W seems to be getting meaner and colder by the week.
This is actually fairly normal. I think they do it hoping that we will treat them the same thus justifying their desire to D. So your response should be to take the high road and not let her drag you down to her level. Conduct yourself with dignity and respect at all times.
Damn. And then AS decided to drop this little tid bit in another thread. Maybe I'll just be the better person and take the high road rather than letting her have it in the end.
I'm just trying to think ahead to how I'm going to respond.
I know that. It's just going to be hard not to give her a hard dose of reality, logic and reason when she's on the way out the door and trying to make it sound like "she tried."
Deep down inside she knows it's BS anyway. It just helps her justify it.
Yes and yes. Take the high road. She's already letting herself have it. Someone around here once said, every time you want to do something, ask yourself if it's because of love or because of a need. You might need to say those things to her FOR YOU, but she doesn't need to hear them.
Oh but man is it tempting.
Edit: was it on your thread that Accuray posted something about how it's harder to leave a decent person than a terrible person? And all the guilt that goes with it?
Or another way of looking at it. I had to put my dog down last year. We hugged her and petted her while she was falling asleep. It was sad but kind. Now think of what if we decided she was just not the dog for us, for no particular reason except that it just wasn't working. Perfectly decent dog, just not really what we're into right now. So we bring her to the shelter. Do we spend 3 hours helping her get comfy in the cage? Do we wave at her and smile as we walk away? Do we feel good when she makes the horrible left-behind sound? I think it's like that. To the dog, we're evil abandonment monsters who are happy to watch her starve. But to us, it's what we had to do. So be the dog that curls up and rests, trusting that pretty soon some cute kid is going to want a birthday present.
Yes and yes. Take the high road. She's already letting herself have it. Someone around here once said, every time you want to do something, ask yourself if it's because of love or because of a need. You might need to say those things to her FOR YOU, but she doesn't need to hear them.
Oh but man is it tempting.
Edit: was it on your thread that Accuray posted something about how it's harder to leave a decent person than a terrible person? And all the guilt that goes with it?
Or another way of looking at it. I had to put my dog down last year. We hugged her and petted her while she was falling asleep. It was sad but kind. Now think of what if we decided she was just not the dog for us, for no particular reason except that it just wasn't working. Perfectly decent dog, just not really what we're into right now. So we bring her to the shelter. Do we spend 3 hours helping her get comfy in the cage? Do we wave at her and smile as we walk away? Do we feel good when she makes the horrible left-behind sound? I think it's like that. To the dog, we're evil abandonment monsters who are happy to watch her starve. But to us, it's what we had to do. So be the dog that curls up and rests, trusting that pretty soon some cute kid is going to want a birthday present.
burned,
I read Accuray's post in ballast's thread I believe and then copied it into my thread because I thought it fit my sitch pretty well.....
Agree with the high road. I know it's the right way, but like you said, man it is so tempting to do the other!
I know that. It's just going to be hard not to give her a hard dose of reality, logic and reason when she's on the way out the door and trying to make it sound like "she tried."
Deep down inside she knows it's BS anyway. It just helps her justify it.
Very, very true. Thanks, LH for everything you've provided to me thus far. I'm sure there will be more and I'll thank you in advance!
Having a tough time so far today. Can't get W out of my mind. This is her first day at her new job. Since we've always worked together ever since we've been married, it's been really hard so far today. Most people can get away from their sitches when going to work. I imagine it gives them sort of a break and lets them focus on their job and not their predicament. Not me, unfortunately. Work is now a constant reminder that she's gone from this part of my life now.
I'm feeling pretty sad and disappointed that its come to this.....She's said this might be a good "break" from each other to help with the time and space she's been feeling she needs. She's also said the new job will provide additional income and full benefits which will help out "our family." I feel more like this is one less obstacle she needs to overcome to completely break free from me. One less thing standing in her way.
If she does continue down this path that looks like will end in D, I can't help but feeling like she's abandoning me twice. Once at work and once as my W and our intact family.
I hope it gets better with time. Time helps heal all wounds, but this is really tough right now.
Also, I will now be the sole caretaker for my kids due to her commute to the new job. It's now fully on me to get them ready for school and day care, pick them up from school and day care, get them to after school activities and start getting supper ready for them, etc. A lot of extra responsibilities that seem pretty overwhelming right now as I try to look forward.
I'm still holding out a slight glimmer of hope that once she settles into this new job, it won't be all she thought it was going to be. Losing valuable time with our young kids, not having the ability to come and go from work as she pleases, longer work days due to the commute and the like. Probably won't happen and even if she feels that way, I don't think she's at a point yet where she would admit it to me anyway.
I went to daily mass today. I try to go as much as I can. One of my 180s and something that makes me feel better as a person. Throughout all of this, I've become much closer to God. Praying hard for him to help give me strength and also praying that he can speak to her, open her heart up to the chance of R and shining a light on our love. It feels as though the only way I might be able to save our marriage is through His divine intervention. Maybe He is waiting until she has better grips on her own personal struggles before allowing us to work toward R so that if we do, its more likely to succeed. At this point all I can do is trust in His will.
Well W, you have two points of view of your actual sitch. You can see the negative part or the posstive one. What does DB says: detach, give her space, work on yourself. You have the chance here. Get into amoafwl.
PMA man! Be there for your children, move forward.
Keep DBing man, stay strong!
Wish I had something helpful to say but at least I can offer you a reminder that you're not alone and that we know how you feel. Trust and hope go hand in hand.
Check out Hoosjim's sitch for some thoughts on divine intervention.
Agree, neffer, just really hard to do. Thank for the support!
burned, thanks. I'm looking him up right now.
Early on there is hardly anything you can do to ease the pain. In the beginning I spent hours upon hours each day reading material from almost 20 yrs ago to help me make sense of what was going on. Knowing that I was not alone gave me extreme comfort. Early on I prayed every day for my Xw to return as the months drug on it just was exhausting and gradually those prayers stopped being about my Xw returning and they become solely about myself and my girls. Right now your hanging on to the edge of a cliff refusing to let go. When you finally let go of cliff you will free fall and your journey to healing will begin.
I can tell you from experience you will never make sense of any of this.
Need some help on how to proceed effectively....
Have been feeling major disrepect and general inconsideration from W recently. I started to withdraw from her, not engaging her in regular conversations, etc for the past few days. So, I made the stupid mistake of bringing it up to W. Ask her what exactly have I done or am doing that gives her so much resentment toward me? Of course she didn't really have an answer. Claimed there was no resentment but then that conversation led to a R convo. She keeps telling me that I'm always trying to make her agree with my thoughts and beliefs and when I asked her "Do you ever think about the vows we took?" (I know, boneheaded mistake) She flipped out and said that "I'm trying to be holier than thou and superior to her which I've always done" Keep in mind this woman has cheated on me 3 times with two of my best friends so its typical for someone in her position to say that IMO. I lost it for a second after she said that but then tried to calm down and talk a little more calmly. Needless to say, the damage was already done.
She left the house but during the conversation she made the comment (revisionist talk I feel) that "She's probably checked out of this marriage longer than I've though she has." So, after she left I texted her:
"Can we please talk in a calm manner tonight sometime? If you’ve been checked out of this marriage for as long as you say, not sure that what we are doing right now is going to help at all. I’m willing to grant you what you desire. I can’t save this by myself and I’m resigned now to that reality. I’m ready to end this pain and suffering and want to start working through the pain and suffering of an ended marriage and broken family." I then went on to say that I'll probably stay at home for Thanksgiving rather than go to her parents with her and kids.
She responded with "Ok. Yeah to talking level headed."
Now, I realize I effed up royally by initiating this convo. However, what I came to find afterwards really doesn't make me care all that much that I screwed up or not. While she was gone, I did some recon and found out she's been in contact with OM since her bike ride rendezvous where she claimed she told him they need to end contact. Just like everyone here predicted and what I sort of assumed was the case. Now I have proof. She sat in the joint session and lied to the ICs and to me that she was cutting of communication.
I'm now at the point where I'm ready to show her the door. In this talk tonight, I'm not sure how I should proceed. I think I'll try to let her steer the convo and if she doesn't really start if off I think I'm going to start by saying, "what are your thoughts and feelings about what I said earlier in the text?" Any suggestions of some better way to do this?
Right now, my feelings are I'll wait towards the end of the conversation and ask her if she's been holding true and holding herself accountable to the NC with OM. If she says yes, I'm going to respond "We both know you are lying." And then I'm going to simply go on to say something along the lines of, "W, you've been leading me on this whole time making it seem as though you were thinking things through. In reality, all you are doing is continuing an A with OM while trying to perceive to me that you are really working through and trying to process this. You've continued to ask for time and space to think but in reality you are just using this time and space to continue talking to OM and stringing me along for the ride. I'm done with it. I believe you are just trying to save up enough $ until you feel comfortable financially to bolt and that's where this is headed. I don't want you here anymore. I want you to get your things and leave this house. If you don't, I'm going to leave tonight and when I come back tomorrow after work, I expect to not see you here. (I have work appts in a town 1.5 hours away tomorrow morning so I could easily just go up tonight and stay to go to those and then come back tomorrow -- I am by no means removing myself from the house. I will not do that because if/when we D I'm getting the house)
I'm sure she will freak out about the kids and not seeing them to which I'll reply "How do you expect this D to work? You aren't going to be seeing them half the time." I will also go on to state that we will not be friends afterwards. A spouse, let alone a friend doesn't treat someone the way you have treated me. She's welcome to FaceTime them when they are with me, but she won't be allowed to have suppers, etc. with them at this time. I've effing had it with the lying, deceit, betrayal and utter lack of disrespect.
I'm tired and fed up with the situation and am prepared to move on. Finding out she's still talking to OM was just the final straw for me.
Any thoughts or suggestions are appreciated!!
The part that hurts me in DBing techniques are what she pointed out in the convo we had. She thinks by me not always initiating convo with her then it means I’m cold, shut down, mad, etc., which is apparently what I’ve done in the past. That could be her trying to find reasons to justify her position which would fit into her theme recently. But at this point, my goal is to get her to move out barring a miraculous jolt from her current wayward thinking, which I doubt will happen.
Well if you are convinced of what you are going to say then go ahead and have the confrontation. You are going to walk on thin ice there...
Have you got any legal advice? Are you going to kick your W out? What happens if she says no, or if the situation gets violent... It’s ok to be angry, you have let W disrespect you a lot. But you are not going to come out in an honourable position. You are going down to a similar level...
Reinforce boundaries, let her free and tell her you are moving on with your life. Then keep STFU and go to sleep. Read TxHubby posts.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=58409&Number=2613495#Post2613495You are not trying to reason with her. She is WW, once again...
Take your time man, I know it’s hard. Wait for advice here, take your time to clear your mind.
Stay strong W!
Read TxHubby posts. Do it.
Not sure I have enough time before our convo to read everything but I’ll try. I need to enforce this boundary I think. I’m not going to kick her out or be physical. I plan to just tell her she’s no longer welcome here is she continuing the A. The reason for this limbo stage where she’s staying in the house in the guest BR was to get “time and space to figure out what she wants”. This isn’t her trying to figure things out. It’s her biding time and cake eating.
Not sure what else I can do. I do NOT want her in our house continuing contact with OM. That is a direct example that she’s clearly not wanting to R or work on the M.
IMO she’s yet to feel any type of loss or face any consequences from her actions. This will be the first.
I appreciate any insight.
Do I give her the chance to send a message to OM in front of me telling him NC and then watch her block, delete, etc him from her phone or should I just go with what I said before and show her the door?
All I can say is I agree with you that all that stuff is frustrating bull turds. Especially the “time and space to figure things out.” She has figured them out, she just doesn’t have the guts to say it because it might wound her already fragile sense of self to seem like the “bad one.” I mean, if she’s anything like my W.
So? She’s already the bad one!
But: cool it. Take some deep breaths. Sleep on it.
You don’t want your decision to be based on anger and frustration. You don’t want your actions to be vincdictive or punitive. Being aggressive is not the same as setting a boundary. And it will come across as being controlling because it’s what YOU need.
Don’t do anything you’ll regret. This is a discussion you should have when the initial emotions have died down a bit. Just my opinion based on some of the things I did terribly wrong.
W,
Telling her she's not welcome in the house is not enforcing a boundary.
I told you all along she was still talking to OM.
If you are not willing to D her cheating a$$. Say nothing because it will make you look weak.
Listen to me closely she is NOT working nor is considering working on the marriage anytime soon.