Hello all,
Glad there is a support community out there for those going through these types of difficult times. Here is where I stand. My wife and I are HS sweethearts. We have been together for 20 years and married for 13. We have 3 kids 8 to 3yrs old. 2 weeks before labor day my wife was feeling really down, she had been turned down for a promotion and she had been suffering from some form of depression. (She has suffered from them through out our marriage especially around her very hard pregnancies) Then she seemed to turn her focus on us and said she was thinking about a trial separation. I suggested that we forgo the separation and seek some counseling or at least she seek some counseling. She agreed that she would seek some help and maybe after we could seek some help. After the meeting with the counselor things took a nose dive. She told me that she told the counselor that she had been in mom mode all these years and hadn't anytime for herself and our marriage had fallen by the wayside. She was seeking to make herself happy again. Told the counselor about separation and possible divorce and the counselor on first meeting approved or though it was a good idea. Now I don't know if this is the whole story, but if this is how she was strongly feeling, then from my perspective this was just the push to get the ball rolling. She got an attorney and started the work (nothing filed) she also began looking at houses.... at and above what we can afford as a married couple. She then dropped the bomb during labor day weekend.
I of course did all the wrong things. Begged, pleaded, cried. You name it. Then I noticed how shut off she became. Like a stranger in the house, distant and withdrawn. After a day or so I got myself together and immediately backed off and tried to stay positive. It must have worked because for the first 2 days she slept with the kids and now she sleeps in our bed again. Unfortunately, she is moving hard and fast which is typically of her demeanor when she sets her mind to something. She wants to divorce and split everything 50/50 including kids and be amicable co-parents. I started going to counseling a few days after labor day weekend. My counselor told me how damaging divorce can be for children even if things are amicable. She told us what to except for our children's ages. I told my wife about this and she did not like it one bit. She had been shoring up her emotions and this caused her to crack a little. Fast forward to now and its been about 12 days. She has dropped her lawyer, but has gotten a mediator that will represent the both of us. The mediator can not start any process until next month and that has caused tension. She feels like I am dragging my feet and being controlling, I told her I want to support her in her decision even though it goes against my own, however this is not drive thru divorce and its permanent and we want to avoid mistake and unwanted expenses. She also make more than me and will owe me child support, I don't think she understands the financial reality of what a divorce can do to a couple, let alone the other things it can do.
My counselor wants me to really focus on my listening skill and being empathetic. I definitely have lacked in the empathy department in the past. I was already working on myself physically before all this happened. I also found MWD info and I have her book on order. I am finding it very hard to not contact or speak to my wife unless she wants to speak to me (unless it pertains to the kids). We used to talk to each other all the time throughout the day. We enjoyed each others company immensely, now its a ghost town. In these 12 days my wife has slowly started opening up to me and sharing things, but while I try to stay positive they are deep down inside hurtful. Basically, the whole marriage was terrible in her eyes and I thinking that is because she is hurting. In reality this year the marriage has been better than it ever has. We moved to our home state to be near family and have jobs with a LOT of work life balance. We have been doing more activities as a family and a married couple than ever before. I have also been supportive of her GAL before all this happened. Family-wise my family says they are supportive of us, but my wife is absolutely ashamed and is avoiding them like the plague. Her family says they are supportive but to me its apparent they are more supportive of me and her relationship is quickly deteriorating. I know this by what she has expressed to me.
She has always been a glass is half empty and I think that gun is now pointed at me. From what I understand she thinks that if she just ends her relationship and goes her own way she will discover herself and find her happiness, kids will be fine and that I will never change. The thing is I am already trying to make changes and I would rather her be apart of them, but I can only control myself.
I think she is a WAW I don't suspect any infidelity. However what hurts the most and makes me the most angry is that she would do this to our children. We promised ourselves to always put the kids first. It doesn't appear to be the case and she is kind of detaching from them at times to go for drives or create space and be alone in the house to figure herself out.
Sorry for the ramble and if its a bit jumbled. I just needed to let a bit of this out.
Welcome to the Board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htmYou may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!
Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH.
Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=57819&Number=2578224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
BTW, I am not perfect nor am I claiming to be. I understand some of my behavior and what I have done in the past to potentially drive some of this. I can lack empathy, I have been good at burying my emotions, I mean burying them DEEP. I think it can appear that I am putting myself first or be controlling when in truth I probably am lacking in the communication skills to get across what I am doing which is usually not putting myself first. Everything is happening so fast and this has slapped me in the face and caused me to look into myself. Somethings I see are good, but somethings definitely need to change to better myself. Just wish it didn't have to come to this.
Twofeet, your sitch is very familiar. Many similarities to mine, except by time I caught mine my W was involved in a long-distance EA. But many of the things she said and did are very similar.
Remember, WAWs ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS rewrite history. "I never love you. I was always unhappy. The marriage as always terrible." Etc. So don't try to reconcile her words with reality, it is a zero sum game.
Read sandi's rules. Learn them. Use them. Learn this one now: Believe NOTHING she says and only half of what she does.
Also, next time she claims you are purposely slowing things down look her in the eyes and say: "I understand you feel that way (validation). However, I do not want this divorce, you do. So while I can't stop you I do not feel it is right for me to help either." If she continues to push you on it tell her you are morally opposed to D for all of the reasons (vows are forever, what it does to the kids) and that you will NOT be an accomplice in the murder of the marriage, family and home.
Twofeet, I think you have a chance of turning this around. Likely she is going so fast because she has doubts and is afraid she'll change her mind. That is why she got upset when you told her the C said D was hard on kids no matter what.
Detach. 180. GAL (LIKE A MADMAN). And be the best Twofeet you can be!
I went through something very similar with my XW....not happy, bored, feeling selfish, yadda yadda yadda. Back way off, don't mention divorce, don't help her facilitate it....it's not what you want but you won't stand in her way....make her do all the work. Start to make changes for yourself not for your wife. If your fat lose weight, get in shape, eat right, lift a ton of weights, get out of the house, and most people would advise to stop going to MC as they will help facilitate your D. You shouldn't go to MC unless both parties are committed to working on the MR. My XW never wanted to go so it was a non-issue for us. Everyone has stuff they should work on to be a better person but that does not excuse your W from wanting a D, not communicating to you that there was a problem and honoring her vows especially with young children involved. Own your side of the fence but please don't take on all your marital problems.
Keep posting. I am sorry you are here but your in good hands.
Yea they want to go super fast so they don't have to think about it all. Same way when they come back to the marriage sometimes. The more they think, the more confused they are. My W is the same way, so don't try to stop them. If you do, all they can think about is how much of a prick you are. Get out of her way, she has time to contemplate and question her decision...
Listening is a huge thing for women, if you're seeing a positive reaction to that, keep it up. Ask questions, try to understand, and validate her feelings.
Also do not support her in getting the divorce, that's just crazy if you want to stay married.
Steve & Joseph,
Thanks for the advice.
Steve I in fact had a convo yesterday with her that closely mirrored your advice. Fortunately or Unfortunately (not sure yet) it ended with me telling her that she is being extremely selfish and not putting the kids first. It hurt her pretty badly,and later after she calmed down we talked, I told her she was a good mother but I would not apologize for what I said.
I am not in MC I am seeing a C to deal with and process my own emotions and to help me better myself. MC is a forgone conclusion at this point with my spouse.
So last night she took our oldest to their practice while I stayed home to care for the younger two. Before she goes she starts talking custody and dealing with our children's activities. I just listened and smiled, it unnerved her and she wanted to know whats going on. I told her this isn't going to be easy, this makes life difficult and, it disrupts our kids lives. I would not talk further about it. When she came back home she dropped off our oldest and told me she needed to run errands. She told the oldest she needed to fill up on gas. Apparently this wasn't true because the car had been filled the other day. I dunno, but the oldest asked me why mommy lied to her. I said I don't know what your mom is doing, she told me she was running errands. Anyway, as was the same as the past 4 or 5 days she goes out for drives, runs errands, etc to get space and clear her head. I least this is what I am lead to believe. She gets home close to or around the kids bedtime. The oldest is bawling her eyes out crying for her mom. It definitely hit home for her and she stayed with the two oldest children until they fell asleep. The youngest was already out. She came to our bed and told me goodnight (a first since the BD) and went to bed. I said good night back since she instigated it. Then in the morning she told me goodbye before she left for work (also a first). Once again I said good bye back. Dropped the kids off and then I headed to work. OMW to work she called after a meeting she had to tell me about it. I worked on my active listening and validation/empathy, conversation went well, but once again she brought up a divorce topic. Which was about us all living in the same area. I listened, but I didn't comment. She wanted to let me know I could call her if I need anything (I won't because I don't want to pursue), I repeated the same to her and we said our goodbyes for the day.
I feel a little frustrated. Not sure if this is a little step forward or not. Maybe a baby step maybe she was just being nice. Gotta put my best face on even though inside I am hurting quite a bit. The anger I feel for her detachment towards the kids is very immense. I am just hope they got to her a bit last night and hopefully she stops doing this to them.
TF,
I am really sorry you are here but you are lucky you found this place because in many ways it is a life saver.
I need to brace you for what I am about to tell you, she is most likely in an affair. Most likely an emotional affair at this point but also prepare for a physical affair. This is why she is fast tracking to D. These drives to clear her head are most likely drives to see or talk to affair partner. Is she secretive with her phone? Do you have access to it?
It doesn't change anything in your sitch unless an affair is a deal breaker for you. The best thing you can do right now is go in the opposite direction. Every thought, every plan and every move should be what is best for the kids and yourself.
Stop telling her that this is going to ruin the kids lives, because first off it is not necessarily true and second off it is just going to piss her off. You are thinking logically because you are a man, she is thinking emotionally because she is a woman.
If you dig deep and do the work and fully let her go, there is a good chance you will get a chance to recon after D years down the road. The fantasy rarely lives up to the reality. Every move you make should come from a place of strength. You can't nice her back. No I am here for you, I will always be here for you type of statements.
The best thing to get her attention is to show her that this is BS and you are going to move on with your life. You can't fake it because she will see through it, you have to move slowly in that direction.
This totally suxs but you will get through it and have a great life if you demand it.
Good luck!
It is a fear of mine that there is a EA or PA. Not much I can do about it if that is the case.
I do manage the finances so I do not see anything unusual there. I also have phone and text msg logs and nothing unusual there. Unless the texts are a coworker I am unaware of. She is also not aware that I currently have access to her email, nothing unusual there. I really don't like snooping it doesn't make me feel any better.... usually worse. Before the BD she was very open with her phone. After BD she changed passwords and wont let me have access or the kids because she says she is creating space and privacy. She doesn't act secretive on her phone and to force her to show me would probably set things back further than I would like.
This charge ahead behavior is not uncommon for her. She has done this throughout our marriage when she is depressed. Its always onto the next thing, then when that doesn't make her happy its onto the next. It has cost us more money than it should with her always seeking the next thing or phase in life to make her happy. Its even set her career back in some cases. She is already excited about finding a new house and decorating it, etc.
Unless the texts are a coworker I am unaware of. She is also not aware that I currently have access to her email, nothing unusual there. After BD she changed passwords and wont let me have access or the kids because she says she is creating space and privacy.
Usually is a coworker and more then likely she is using a in app to make contact because she knows you have access to her texts.
Again it doesn't change anything I just want you to know what you are most likely up against. In the last six months has she spoken about some specific guys at work?
She has mentioned many people. The men she has repeatedly mentioned were either homosexual ( I met one of them) or not talked about in a nice way. There may have been a man that fits the thing your describing but I dont recall. Either way it doesn't change much. I need to DB and keep on working on myself. If it was a EA or PA I will always forgive her I think that is apart of bettering myself. However, as of now I would accept her back if she wanted, not sure the door will stay open in the future.
On another note when she got home she got ready for bed and in bed by 5pm. She got out of bed to have dinner with me. Between bits of small talk she tried bringing up talk of the big D, then went back to bed where she is now atm, while I am playing with the kids as I usually do every evening.
Well the thought of an A was an itch I couldn't scratch. Did more snooping and noticed a large volume of text going back and forth between my wife and a male from her work shortly after the BD to current. I basically stopped DB last night and tried to get her to let me look at her phone. She freaked out and locked herself in the bathroom. After I got her to come out she was shaking pretty bad. My adrenaline was pumping as well. We both calmed down talked, she said very hurtful things, those whole marriage was a mistake, even though our marriage was built on trust she never has trusted me, etc. She isn't ready to move out yet, but we are not going to share our bed anymore so I slept with the kids. I did catch her in a lie about who she talks to on the phone. Never brought up the coworker, but she said she has talked to her mom, sis, female friend from work, no one else. I think she is probably having an EA with this man or the early stages of an EA. Never seen her so scared as when I asked her to unlock her phone and show me she isn't hiding anything. Well I think she slept in our bed well. I slept terribly wracked by constant nightmares and waking up with adrenaline pumping.
DO NOT GIVE UP THE MARITAL BED.
You stay, ask her to leave until she agrees to end the EA. This is one of the biggest mistakes LBHs make. Giving up the marital bed is like Austria allowing Germany to take over without a fight.
180 on that immediately. Sit her down and tell her "I am the one that wants the marriage. I am the one that is remaining faithful to the marriage. You are the one that can't even allow transparency by unlocking your phone and handing it over. So from now on you sleep somewhere else."
TF,
I have been on these boards for almost four years and can read these sitches so easily now. This has likely been going of for awhile. She most likely isn't going to give up the safety of her marriage that easily and quickly unless she has a safe landing spot.
I agree with Steve make your stand with the martial bed. You have to be in the mindset that this is BS she is in the wrong. She leaves the bedroom, she leaves the house if she wants not you.
Another very important thing. Do not make statements like I will forgive you, I will always be there for you etc. She needs to feel like she fuched up and she needs to earn another chance with you. Now having said that, this will not happen overnight, most likely many years down the road. The thing is, if she smells weakness from you she will exploit you big time and the cake eating party will begin.
There is a saying around here that things have to get worse before they get better and it definitely got worse last night.
This is probably going to be hardest thing to date that you have ever gone through in your life but you will come out ok on the other side no matter what happens.
Keep posting and put your signature with ages and kids on the bottom.
Good luck and keep posting.
LH nailed it. One other thing, when you interact to her do not be sad, mopey, "poor me". Firm. Confident. Slightly angry (temper this but showing a bit of anger will show her you disapprove).
Sad and mopey will get you into D court faster than you can say infidelity!
TF,
Does your W run around with new friends or coworkers that are also divorced or separated for their spouse that you may not know well?
Prior to my BD, WAW started to talk about how a ton of people at her work were going thru D or S. I do believe that she get influenced by these toxic people...
Prior to my BD, WAW started to talk about how a ton of people at her work were going thru D or S. I do believe that she get influenced by these toxic people...
The problem with this thinking is you give her a pass. Guess what, there are other married people that work with all of them that DIDN'T go drop a bomb on their spouse. If your W was influenced by these people the weakness is with her, not them.
A year before my W dropped her bomb on me, we knew several couples that were in the process of splitting up, including my niece and her husband. Did that plant a seed with my W? Maybe. But the issue was her's, not theirs'.
My wife has 2 coworker friends. 1 a happily married woman with children. 2 a happily married homosexual man. I have met these people and they don't appear to be toxic. Anyone beyond this I don't know. My wife is not good at making friends. These are just cursory work friends. She has ended, and usually not well, her deep friendships. Her sis is all she has left for deep friendship since she is done with me. She can be difficult for some people to get along with.
TF, just keep DB. You need to get her respect back. Set some boundaries and detach.
Take your time, read and keep posting.
You are not alone.
Well she won't admit it but she is in an EA. My IC helped me with some communication prompts to get through to her. It opened her up but she was still holding back. So I pressed again and got closer. Finally I got her to tell me the man's name. (I put 2 & 2 together and had it figured out beforehand).
Her: Don't worry twofeet it's not like that I just have 2 or 3 coworker friends to lean on.
Me: Ok you told me not to tell anyone who wasn't family. Then you lied and told 2 or 3 coworkers but you exclusively text one person ALOT.
Her: Don't be silly it's not like that. I don't tell him much it's just friendly not deep. Nothing is going on.
Me: Is he married or divorced?
Her: Well....
Me: So you confide in another man about our marriage? You are in an EA.
Her: No I am not.
Me: Yes you are. You are missing something from our marriage emotionally and he is filling that gap. You are hurting and he smells blood like the wolf he is. I am a guy I know what this POS is capable of.... what does it matter you won't listen to me.
Her: I'm fine it's not like that.
Me: Doesn't change things, whether you admit it or not you are in an EA.
Her: Whatever twofeet.
Could be a PA but I dont think its likely... I think this all fired up once she BD me.
Later she separated our phones into 2 accounts. Then we had a convo about a trusting relationship, have privacy but no secrets. To which I caught her in a couple of lies in this convo. I said so you want to make this happen and be equal coparents with our kids best interests but you keep lieing. I can't talk to you right now.
Man...the lies. 13 years of trust just dumped down the toilet. This is probably going to hit the big D and now I gotta trust her with the kids.
I honestly think she is mentally unwell, either depression or bipolar. My IC feels something is off but can't diagnose unless my wife goes to IC.
She is feeling so much excitement about her new life.... what's going to happen when that ship sinks like all her other ships. We were HS sweethearts so I basically grew up putting up with baloney because I didn't know better. I don't think most men would especially if they get what they want from her.
TF,
You got the info on the EA/PA you needed now I suggest you don't bring it up anymore. The more you bring it up the more it fuels the inappropriate relationship they are having.
Odds are she is not mentally ill and if she was a good parent will continue to be a good parent when and if you D.
Do not tell her what she is feeling, what is best for her, what she needs to do. That will push her further away. Put 100% of your focus on what's best for you and the kids.
If you can be strong and let her go and make positive changes in your life, most likely you will get a chance at reconciliation down the road.
Please ad a signature like mine, it helps everyone understand your situation better.
LH is on it as usual. You attacking the AP (POS) also just adds fuel to the A fire to make it burn hotter. For WAWs in general, and WWs in particular, the more taboo the inappropriate relationship becomes the more alluring it is. You want to quell that fire as much as possible. One way you do that is not bring it up again like LH says, and second is pretend that you don't care. I know that last one take self-control and patience but it works.
If you read the most successful DB sitches it is always because the LBS got their "IDC" mojo going so well that the WAS was like "What?"
When they go "What?" then you have a chance. But "What?" requires them to come to you. If you go to them they will flee 99.9999999999999999% of the time.
Well last night she was still texting the OM. I sent her a link on what an EA was. Told her she talks to him more than we did at our best of times, more than anyone else including her sis. Asked for mutual respect and respect the marriage and to put this on hold until the big D. She balked, so I calmly had her leave the marital bed and removed her personal items from the bedroom.
I will not talk more of this to her, going to let go and detach hard. I think at this point she is just going to have to hit rock bottom.
Good job Twofeet. There will come moments of weakness where you'll want to invite her back into the MBR. Don't do it until she show actual remorse and is willing to give complete transparency and is consistent in it for a while. In other words, stick to your guns!
Ugg she just came in this morning and asked why her stuff was out of the bedroom. I said I don't want someone in my bed who is in an EA. She denies being in an EA. I said did you read the article, she said yes but our marriage is over. I said it's not over till its legally over and we need to respect that. She says am I not allowed to have friends? Yes I say however this is inappropriate and you hid him from me. If the roles were reversed you would be upset. She says she wouldn't be because we are done. I said think about it if something like this was going on when our marriage was at a good point, you sure you wouldn't be upset? She then says how she wants to find a new mediator and bump up the timeline, and that she is tired of me controlling her and hovering above like God on high. That I have always tried to control her, she is tired of it and letting go and I can find someone new to control. I used language to validate her feelings, but told her how I am not going to fight with her or talk to her in a hurtful manner. Told her dont change mediation date, it's only 2 weeks away and we haven't even sorted out our affairs. She once again mentioned how she doesn't like being treated like her friendship to OM is an EA and she wouldn't do that. I said ok I don't want to talk about this right now let's just move on. She said ok.
Btw I cant get the signature to show up for some reason.
Your sig is there.
DOn't buy her threats. You should have said to the mediator thing: "I understand you feel that this needs to go faster. If you want to move it up I won't stop you."
This validates her feelings AND puts the work on her to do (and likely she wouldn't do that).
Stick to your guns. "Until you can end things with OM I am not going to allow you back into the MBR."
I said it's not over till its legally over and we need to respect that. She says am I not allowed to have friends? Yes I say however this is inappropriate and you hid him from me.
TF,
These comments are controlling. You can respect that about your marriage while you are legally married but you can't make her.
This unfortunately is so common. You have been together since she was 15 and have three really young kids. Her life has probably been diapers. laundry, cooking, cleaning for the past 8 years. Throw in being with the same guy for 20 years and it a volcano ready to blow it's top.
Now just about every couple goes through these patches and couples in relationships that are healthy and have great communicators will make it through these tough times.
This EA is like a drug to her and nothing is going to stop her from getting her fix.
Now the reality is the fantasy rarely lives up to the hype and her world will come crashing down around here. Most likely the AP wants nothing to do with your three young kids.
Again, we can't stress it enough, do not teller her what to do and what articles to read and what it is going to do to the kids. That is like telling a crack addict what drugs do to their body.
Think of your W as a wild animal and has been locked in a cage for years. Open the cage door and set her free.
You have to find a way to dig down deep and be strong for you and your kids. They will need you to be their rock.
LH19,
I don't want to appear controlling, that is not my intention. I know I can't stop her and she will and is continuing to communicate with OM. Its only a matter of time before this turns into a PA. Is there a better way to handle this or is there a better way I can communicate with her and not sound controlling?
She was mad this morning because she wanted to have a discussion about leaving the martial bed and not just be thrown out. I think she is going to alternate between the kids and have them sleep with me so she can sleep in their beds. I am not sure, but I am not trying to be involved in her sleeping arrangements outside our bed.
On another note I think I am going to take the kids and spend the weekend at my folks place. Just as she needs her space I am needing my own space. I can't be around her all the time no matter how much I want to because it hurts too much and I need to keep GAL and appear strong.
Also she wants to work on divvying up the stuff this weekend and get rolling for the mediator/lawyer. I think by being gone this weekend she can just work on her own and I can take a look at what she has figured out when I get back.
If it's about the EA, don't even bring it up.
In regards to communication, the best thing you to do right now is listen and validate.
Also read up on boundaries.
Good idea to get out of Dodge for the weekend.
Keep reminding yourself two things:
1. This is a marathon and not a sprint.
2. You can't make things better right now but you can certainly make them worse.
Agreed, do not bring up the A, period!! I made this mistake months back and it is extremely counter productive to your efforts.
Trust me they know what they are doing is wrong and most have the guilt eating away inside them. Reminding them validates why they are doing it and you are seen as the bad guy. I tell my wife the in house separation is to give her the time and space she needs to figure out what she wants. It has been a month now and I hear her up at all hours of the night and she has said she does not sleep well without me in bed. Oh well.
My W has no intentions of a D and that is what makes my decisions so difficult. If i knew she was moving forward with lawyers I'd have a PI on my W to get any adultery charges that I could if your state allows for at fault filings. At fault doesn't mean much in regards to asset separations but as far as custody and any bargaining it can help.
LH19,
I don't want to appear controlling, that is not my intention. I know I can't stop her and she will and is continuing to communicate with OM. Its only a matter of time before this turns into a PA. Is there a better way to handle this or is there a better way I can communicate with her and not sound controlling?
She was mad this morning because she wanted to have a discussion about leaving the martial bed and not just be thrown out. I think she is going to alternate between the kids and have them sleep with me so she can sleep in their beds. I am not sure, but I am not trying to be involved in her sleeping arrangements outside our bed.
On another note I think I am going to take the kids and spend the weekend at my folks place. Just as she needs her space I am needing my own space. I can't be around her all the time no matter how much I want to because it hurts too much and I need to keep GAL and appear strong.
Also she wants to work on divvying up the stuff this weekend and get rolling for the mediator/lawyer. I think by being gone this weekend she can just work on her own and I can take a look at what she has figured out when I get back.
I didn't see it as controlling as much as truthful. Did you force her to take her vows? Were her vows not for life?
Now I'm not saying you remind her of her vows constantly, but if you made your point this one time and you aren't beating the war drum then it's really not a big issue IMO.
You seem like a strong guy with a clear mind. Keep doing what you're doing. I'd stop bringing up the OM and worrying about her texts. Stop trying to get her to admit it's an EA too. She knows, but she may never admit it. It might be too much for her to do right now and you are pressuring with this.
So before I take the kids to hangout with family this weekend they go crying to Mom that she doesn't spend time with them anymore. (Which is true when she is home during the week she had been lying in our bed till I kicked her out, now she lays in their bed) so she felt guilty and took them run some errands. Before we left she asked that I call her before we come home so she can make sure she is home cause she misses the kids. Anyway she calls me mid afternoon to tell me things she was doing around the house cause she was bored. Good for you I say sounds like it's a productive day. Tells me she is driving around looking at neighborhoods in the area. Ok sounds good I say. She asks about the kids, tell her about the kids activities, tell her I will show her pics when I get home. She asks about dinner. I am noncommittal as whether we are eating at my folks or home. Tell her don't wait for us if your hungry.....
Later, closer to dinnertime she calls asking if it's ok if she can go to dinner with a coworker girlfriend and their mutual girlfriend from oot. I say I never have stopped you from having a life with your friends, you are an adult you can can make your own decisions. Have a good time talk to you later.
I am detaching, GAL with my kids, doing my own thing not pursuing. I'm a bit confused what is she doing?
Hmm
Could be she is going with someone else? And wanted to think it was these girls in case you find out she was out? Or it could be that she is sad and lonely and wanted to tell you her plans just to interact? Who knows. Don't give it another moments thought.
Well the weekend with the kids were a lot of fun. Wife went to dinner with some girlfriends from work and oot. Called me to let me know when she was coming home because she didn't want me to worry about her safety. She was in a good mood when she got home and was chatty about her night and the rumors from the oot girlfriend (stuff from where we used to live). I was engaging, worked on communication skills ie validation, empathy, etc. as necessary. Told her good night then went to bed and she slept on the couch. BTW this was not that late of a night. 9:30 p.m. she was in bed. The next day she slept until the kids woke her up at 7 am. Came to our room to wake me up and said she couldn't handle the kids right now please take care of them. She then went to my son's room and slept in his bed till noon. I on the other hand got up, made breakfast played with kids and then took them to the park. The wife got up and met us at the park for the last half hour of play. She sat by me and didn't talk too much other than to talk about the kids and how this will affect them. Rather than get emotional about the kids I just told her lets just enjoy the rest of the time here, I don't want to talk about how it will affect the kids right now, we both know it will hurt them and they are important to us. Anyway back at home she made lunch for everyone then left to run errands. She came home got back into her PJs then slept on the couch till past dinner. After dinner the kids and I were all just sitting around the dinner table doing our thing when she comes in to talk. I asked if she was ok and she said she just felt like having a lazy Sunday. ( I was thinking to myself, that's like every weekend for you and any weekday evening when you don't go for drives) She then told me that when I look at her while we are talking there is a disconnect in my eyes. I told her I didn't understand and asked if she could explain. She said " I don't know how to explain it. There is just a disconnect. I can't read you anymore. I can see you are trying to make changes, hopefully this will cause you to be a much better person. I hope you are doing this for you and not for me. Why couldn't you have done this sooner. " There was was slight anger and frustration in her voice. I told her that I hear your frustration, unfortunately it took an event like this to be a wake up call, and I need to better myself for myself and learn from my mistakes.
I feel the DBing is what is throwing her off with not being able to read me as I am trying to change and not be the old me anymore. My emotional state was better this weekend and my sleep and appetite were better. Anytime I felt the wave of dread, or dark thoughts of what my wife is doing ie OM, I just found something to do to keep my mind off it, such as focusing on kids, yardwork, exercise, visiting extended family etc.
Of course all the divorce planning she wanted to do this weekend did not happen. No child custody calendars, assets, etc. I didn't think she would be motivated enough to go through with it. I just don't know if I should push it or sit, wait, and watch. Good news is she is scheduled to see my IC this week for herself. My IC was highly recommended and has helped me with things. Hopefully the IC can help my wife with her issues.
I can just hear and feel the hurt, anger, and frustration in her voice. I don't think it was any one thing I did, just a combination of our marriage issues, her life and work issues, and her own personality issues getting blame shifted directly onto me. Hopefully she can heal and maybe the counselor will help with this and her other issues. I don't say this as a hope for recon, just a hope that she can get better and fight her own demons.
When she brings up things like how "this will hurt the kids" you should just validate. You kind of evaded and said not right now, which is kind of true - maybe it wasn't the best time to discuss it.
When she feels the disconnect, validate that too. Go check out the validation thread and remember 3 of the responses that suit you the best. It will make a big difference in your communication with her.
And yes the DB is affecting her a bit, keep working at it for you though. She is still very wishy washy.
I read through all the Sandi threads and validation threads this weekend. I need to REALLY work on the validation lines. Validation, empathy, and not using attacking statements are all apart of my IC skills/goals.
Someone posted a reply then deleted it. However here was my response to it.
No I have never been abusive, physically, emotionally, or cheated. Its a coworker of hers of obvious questionable morality. We have relationship issues, fights, bad communication, etc., stuff everyone has, unlike her I just don't use other peoples marriages as a barometer because what is said or seen is not always what is true. I have been really reflecting on our marriage and what I did wrong and what she has done wrong. It has really opened my eyes to certain aspects being lopsided on both our parts. However, at this point I can only work on me and if we ever recon, which I hope we do, I know there is a heck of a lot of work to be done. If we don't well it will be her loss.
I can see you are trying to make changes, hopefully this will cause you to be a much better person. I hope you are doing this for you and not for me. Why couldn't you have done this sooner. " There was was slight anger and frustration in her voice.
TF,
This is standard WAW bs they like to spin to take the blame off themselves.
I am not sure if you said but is the OM married and does he have kids?
On a side note for where you are at in this you are doing great! Most guys in the early stages are making tons of mistakes thinking they can nice their wives back.
From what I can get, the OM has at least 1 kid, a preteen I think. Also according to my W his marriage status is complicated.
Yeah most marriages are complicated when there is a fuching third party involved!
Oh boy she pushed some buttons tonight. She came home after IC all smiles and said she was glad she went to the C. She knew about dinner and called me earlier today and we agreed that I would keep it warm for her. Well she gets home and says oh I'm not hungry I am still full from lunch. I am a little irritated at this point cause she could have told me that at her call earlier this afternoon. I don't call her out I just shrug it off and clean up. She tells me how we shouldn't bad mouth each other we should always be positive about each other in front of the kids. I tell her I wouldn't say negative things about you especially to the kids. She tells me the divorce is going to be good. I say you don't need me to remind you what I think about this. It is not good. She agrees.
She then tells me she has a lot of healing to do. I validate with I hear the anger and frustration in your voice, I can't imagine how upset you are. She says twofeet you have a lot of changing to do I dont want you to mess up the kids like you messed me up. I told her that was hurtful, we both need to change if we want to progress, and it upsets me that you think I would mess up the kids. At this point I tell her I need to check on the kids so I can get away from her. At the kids bedtime she said she shouldn't have said that stuff, I reminded her it was hurtful, and I understand she is hurting but fighting is something we dont want to do. She agreed. I guess that was her apology.
I think she baited me and I almost bit. Need to focus on DB and let that junk slide off my back. This re-writing of our marital history is getting old fast. It makes me question a lot about myself.
Well I thought I was further along emotionally and mentally than I really am. Yesterday's convo is still bugging me. Can't stop thinking of her and hoping for a miracle. In-laws called today just to tell me they were thinking of me and hope I am doing well. Started to crack a little and when I got off the phone I cried pretty hard. Fortunately, my wife will not see any of this. She will just see a happy, go about his business guy.
TF,
I just want to prepare you that this is just the beginning and this most likely won't play out completely for years.
My started 4 years ago last Saturday and my life still isn't normal and won't be for awhile.
It's ok to get your $hit out when the W and kids aren't around but you must be the rock when they are around.
Your'e doing great for being this early in. Read and reread Sandi's rules and stick to them as much as possible.
We are here to support you!
Hey Twofeet.
Sounds like you have the prototypical "Wayward Wife." I kinda wish Sandi2 would chime in on this thread... I am a big believer in that once the affair is out in the open, one of you (preferably the one having the A) has to go. It has to do with self-respect and respect FROM the WW, and how they can't ever regain any respect as long as they know you know about the affair and continue to let them live under the same roof with you. (At least you have had her leave the marital bedroom, which is good and not always easy to accomplish).
I am in agreement with most of what the others on here are saying, although my thinking is somewhat more nuanced on WW's and affairs. I tend to gravitate more toward the "hard line" end of what Sandi2 preaches, and to subscribe to her view that "you will never look more attractive to her than when you are walking away." Now, DB-ing in general seeks to put you in that stance "walking away" (At least figuratively) with GALs and 180s and acting nonchalante about he and what she is up to, BUT... do not neglect to become familiar with the "Last Resort Technique" and the "Beyond the Last Resort Technique" from the DB-ing books. Sandi2s philosophy tends more towards those aspects of DB-ing, I think, than towards the "just wait it out" portions.. LH19 is right when he posts that this process can take a loooong time, even years... if, that is, you opt to wait it out. There are some examples on this board, including mine (TXHubby is another), where a LBH finally saying "enough" and walking away in the face of an intransigent WW and her ongoing affair was able to jolt a WW back to reality. As Sandi2 would say "they need to experience a loss", and she aint experiencing no loss getting to hang around y'alls house and reap some of the benefits of the marriage all the while carrying on her affair... and that you know about it!
IDK, i have prolly butchered Sandi2s philosophy, here, so maybe she will stop by to correct my interpretations, but... IMHO, you have little hope of having your W "come back" or of entering any kind of reconciliation phase in anything less than a term of years, and maybe even after undergoing a D, unless you take stronger action WRT her affair. Not talking about yelling and screaming and throwing a fit, just firm boundary-setting and enforcement of those boundaries. (ANd you'd need to read and re-read and get comfortable with the various stickied boundaries threads... and then read them again, because newcomers frequently mess this part up and move to soon without having a plan and understanding fully what they are going to do-- I know i sure as hell made those mistakes.)
Everyone's sitch is different, but i will tell you this: My W did not fully turn and come back with the true intent to work on the MR until I walked away and made her believe that i was DONE. My ordeal lasted just slightly over one year, with several fits and starts and false starts commencing about seven months in. It doesn't HAVE to take years to resolve, but it sometimes can, depending on the dynamics pertaining to your sitch. FWIW Sandi2 has said on multiple occasions that she believes that if most LBHs would put their foot down immediately upon discovering an affair, that the timeline for reconcilliation (where reconcilliation is possible, and it isn't always) would be significantly shortened.
Good luck, and God Bless.
And i would add the important caveat to my post above that it is more than just "making her believe you are done". You have to have respectable boundaries, that you are enforcing, and have to be actually yourself willing to end the marriage (as, in fact, MWD indicates to be the case with the LRT and the BTLRT). It's not about posturing and bluffing and manipulation, In my case, i WAS done... i'd had enough of the ongoing affair and the dribs and drabs and half steps she was taking and her inability to completely "cut the cord" with OM and was, myself, in a good enough and self-assured enough place to just say "ENOUGH". Same with TXHubby if you read his threads.
Hey Twofeet.
Sounds like you have the prototypical "Wayward Wife." I kinda wish Sandi2 would chime in on this thread... I am a big believer in that once the affair is out in the open, one of you (preferably the one having the A) has to go. It has to do with self-respect and respect FROM the WW, and how they can't ever regain any respect as long as they know you know about the affair and continue to let them live under the same roof with you. (At least you have had her leave the marital bedroom, which is good and not always easy to accomplish).
I am in agreement with most of what the others on here are saying, although my thinking is somewhat more nuanced on WW's and affairs. I tend to gravitate more toward the "hard line" end of what Sandi2 preaches, and to subscribe to her view that "you will never look more attractive to her than when you are walking away." Now, DB-ing in general seeks to put you in that stance "walking away" (At least figuratively) with GALs and 180s and acting nonchalante about he and what she is up to, BUT... do not neglect to become familiar with the "Last Resort Technique" and the "Beyond the Last Resort Technique" from the DB-ing books. Sandi2s philosophy tends more towards those aspects of DB-ing, I think, than towards the "just wait it out" portions.. LH19 is right when he posts that this process can take a loooong time, even years... if, that is, you opt to wait it out. There are some examples on this board, including mine (TXHubby is another), where a LBH finally saying "enough" and walking away in the face of an intransigent WW and her ongoing affair was able to jolt a WW back to reality. As Sandi2 would say "they need to experience a loss", and she aint experiencing no loss getting to hang around y'alls house and reap some of the benefits of the marriage all the while carrying on her affair... and that you know about it!
IDK, i have prolly butchered Sandi2s philosophy, here, so maybe she will stop by to correct my interpretations, but... IMHO, you have little hope of having your W "come back" or of entering any kind of reconciliation phase in anything less than a term of years, and maybe even after undergoing a D, unless you take stronger action WRT her affair. Not talking about yelling and screaming and throwing a fit, just firm boundary-setting and enforcement of those boundaries. (ANd you'd need to read and re-read and get comfortable with the various stickied boundaries threads... and then read them again, because newcomers frequently mess this part up and move to soon without having a plan and understanding fully what they are going to do-- I know i sure as hell made those mistakes.)
Everyone's sitch is different, but i will tell you this: My W did not fully turn and come back with the true intent to work on the MR until I walked away and made her believe that i was DONE. My ordeal lasted just slightly over one year, with several fits and starts and false starts commencing about seven months in. It doesn't HAVE to take years to resolve, but it sometimes can, depending on the dynamics pertaining to your sitch. FWIW Sandi2 has said on multiple occasions that she believes that if most LBHs would put their foot down immediately upon discovering an affair, that the timeline for reconcilliation (where reconcilliation is possible, and it isn't always) would be significantly shortened.
Good luck, and God Bless.
Wow this is awesome. Hoos could u venture into my thread for some advice? I dont wanna hijack this one
And i would add the important caveat to my post above that it is more than just "making her believe you are done". You have to have respectable boundaries, that you are enforcing, and have to be actually yourself willing to end the marriage (as, in fact, MWD indicates to be the case with the LRT and the BTLRT). It's not about posturing and bluffing and manipulation, In my case, i WAS done... i'd had enough of the ongoing affair and the dribs and drabs and half steps she was taking and her inability to completely "cut the cord" with OM and was, myself, in a good enough and self-assured enough place to just say "ENOUGH". Same with TXHubby if you read his threads.
Should I confront her again about the A? Ask her to come clean and have her show me the texts? Use that as the tipping point to give her the boot? I was going to wait until the mediation day before I put the house up for sale. Already have a realtor. I also have a shark of a lawyer lined up if this mediation looks like its stacked against me or is going to fall apart. In the consult the L says I should not leave the house and keep the kids with me in the house until we sell.
Should I confront her again about the A? Ask her to come clean and have her show me the texts? Use that as the tipping point to give her the boot?
You shouldn't do anything before you are ready. In particular, you need to know #1 what you
want, and #2 what you are willing to
live with/ put up with. After that, you need to know what course of action you will take, under various eventualities, if your W's actions deviate from what you are willing to put up with (typically by violating your
boundaries.)
See, here's the thing-- most LBHs are eager for the
confrontation... They want their Perry Mason "gotcha" moment, that, they presume, will force the WW to confess everything, beg forgiveness, and plead to be taken back. I was the exact same way. Problem is, it never works like that. Pretty much every WW/WAw, without exception, works from the same "script". Its almost eerie how much the do and even say pretty much the exact same things. You'd think they had a monthly WW club meeting to coordinate their actions or something.
PArt of the script is that they will deny any impropriety WRT their affairs... even to the point of denying the entire relationship, and this even in the face of cold, hard evidence. At the very least they will minimize and claim that it is "nothing" or "completely harmless". So, you need to be prepared for that. Because of this dynamic, it does no good to have any discussions about the affair, or, indeed, as MWD indicates in her books, even any discussions about the MR. The WW does not want you. She does not want the MR. And talking her to death is not going to get her to confess any wrongdoing or convince her to change her mind. You can't talk her out of this or "nice" her out of this.
What
can start to change this dynamic?
Action. Action in the first sense with your GALs and 180s... actions you take for you to make you the best Twofeet you can be. This is obviously good for you and your own well-being and your new awesome life you are creating for
you. The corrolary effect is that she ultimately notices your changes and becomes intrigued but... You do them for
you, with no expectation as to what
she will do in response.
Action in the second sense means what actions you will take to protect your boundaries... boundaries that have been clearly stated to your spouse and which reflect actions or dynamics that are non-negotiable in your life and which you will not allow to go unanswered and remedied. For instance: "I will not live in an open marriage" or "I will not share you with another man". Thing is, alot of newcomer LBHs go into this without a good idea of what "boundaries" are, or how they are defended, or, indeed, what action(s) they will take when the WW (invariably) violates them. You need to be
prepared. Read through the sticky threads. Again and again and again. Check out other posters' sitches on these forums. Track down Sandi2 or artista and seek their input (they are both in high demand around here.) But dont just go off half-cocked thinking you have a "boundary" and then not know what your next steps will be or how you will respond, KWIM? That can cause more harm than it can do good, particularly if you come off looking indecisive or wishy-washy.
Your wife, as with all WWs, has lost respect for you, and she cannot love you romantically if she does not have respect for you. Boundaries and GALs and 180s are about helping yourself in the first instance, but they are also about getting back respect... both self respect and, if possible, the respect of your wayward wife.
Final caveat: Know that every single person's sitch is different. Even though the WW seems to have a standard script, there are always overlays that make every single persons sitch different from everyone else's. In my case, for instance, despite my firm belief in Sandi2's theory that dropping your own bomb on your cheating spouse
early and indicating in no uncertain terms that you wont live with a cheater can be a key component in jarring a WW out of her affair-induced haze and back to reality,... in my case, i think it may have actually ended my marriage and pushed any reconcilliation , if it had ever occurred, out into the distant future. In my sitch, we had a SSM... we had not been intimate in nearly 5 years, and even for a few years before that only sporadically. Furthermore, the relationship had become almost toxic. At the time of her BD, i am pretty sure you wouldn't even have called us "friends". Had i put the hammer down on her when i discovered the A, and said, "It's me or him" or "I wont live with a cheater", she'd in all likelihood have said "see ya", and that would have been that. The interactions we had over the next several months, her being able to see my 180s and GALS close up, and the on again off again work we did on our own relationship actually created a foundation for us, that gave her something to "lose" if she left me. In addition, every WW is different. Some are more coldhearted and selfish by nature even before they go off the tracks to waywardism. Not so with my wife. She was always the good girl, very giving and selfless, with a firm grounding in a Christian upbringing and a devout believer. So she still had that deep down which helped pull her back, imo. In the end, the path we took may have been the only path that would have brought us back together... and i made a royal mess of my early boundary-setting attempts.
I guess my point is that you need to do some reflection, figure out what you want longer term and what you can and cant live with. Then do some reading, here and anywhere else you can find. But pay attention to the sticky threads on these forums. Then make a plan and stick to it. But don't go confronting your W again just because you think you need to hear her confess, or because someone here tells you to do it. You need to have a plan, for you, that fits your sitch. \
And you need to detach. There's threads on that, too. If she ever comes back to you, it wont be because you chased her down or badgered her into it. It will be because she saw you walking away or saw herself about to lose you (the new, awesome you), and because she chased
you down.
And whatever you do, always keep the fundamental tenets of DB-ing in the back of your mind. And dont get discouraged..
I am not going to be around these forums on any kind of regular basis, but read through sandi2's and artista's stuff, not just the sticky threads, but advice on other folks' threads that they have given. My case is instructive, i think, just because of how whacky it got. Not sure there is anything i "did" that resulted in our reconciling, except having faith in God, which is a whole nother post...
Twofeet, you have a rare gift here in getting advice from HJ! He was a DBing dynamo and it saved his marriate. You'd do well to heed his advice.
Thank you hoosjim,
This gives me a lot to think about. To my wife I have not been dragging my feet, but I also haven't been outwardly pushing forward with the D prep. Behind the scenes I am getting ready for it. She also has not been pushing as hard as she did initially. Some of this may be attributed to cake eating, her own mental and emotional state, and/or some may be attributed to DB. Its hard to figure because things are so early at this point in time, and I may never figure it out. It hasn't even been 1 month since the BD. I do have her out of the bedroom, but cannot kick her out of the house. Afer the first few days from the BD she tried to leave, but without her family willing to help she changed her mind. I keep a physical boundary, which sometimes is broken due to kids, but should be understandable especially because nothing happens between us. This physical 2ft bubble boundary is a BIG 180 for me because my love language is physical touch. I have been working on a privacy boundary ie we share a bathroom. As far as the EA goes I am not sure what other boundaries I need to establish. She isn't going around partying at night or acting like some wild single girl. After the confrontation about the EA, I am assuming she is still in communication with the OM, her secret texting and trying to hide her phone have stopped as far as I can tell. She did separate our phone accounts so whatever she does is now hidden from me. She stopped going for drives from dinner to the kids bedtime. When she is at home she usually just lays around in lounge clothes watching shows on her phone or sleeping. I am no longer an open book of trust with her. Financially, she only has access to our joint checking. I locked up our savings so there can be no take the money and run. She doesn't like dealing with money anyway so she rarely checks it. She has no access to my CC although I still have access to hers. She knows I don't want a D but I am going to go through with it regardless.
I can probably work more on the emotional boundaries since she is the one saying the hurtful things. When she is confronted with truth she likes to lash out harder. I have been good about walking away or letting her know what she says is hurtful. While she doesn't apologize for the things she says later she wants to let me know she just want to avoid arguments and wants to keep the peace.
I think one thing I need to work on is detachment vs smoothing things over to avoid argument/confrontation.
I feel like I am not getting it or I am missing something as far as boundaries go.
Twofeet, a couple of more thoughts as I am somewhat scattershooting today due to time constraints.
First-- a word on confusion and on having "too many voices" giving you advice. The difference between just reading MWD's books and in reading the books and then frequenting these forums, is that with the former you have only one voice giving you advice. With the latter, you have many voices. Granted, we all here, in theory, and to one extent or another, subscribe to the efficacy and power of DB-ing and believe that following its tenets is a worthwhile and valuable course of action. However, as i said previously, everyone's sitch is different. Everyone's. As a result, each person you encounter on here is going to have a slightly to somewhat different take on the details and specifics of putting DB-ing into action, and whether or not and to what extent and it will work for you and in what time frames. It can be confusing... and also paralyzing. It can also send you careening from side to side and from one solution to the next like a drunken driver in a rainstorm. I know, i've been there. The best thing you can do WRT this dynamic is to know what you want, know what you can live with (would you take your W back if you knew she had slept with OM? If she had slept with multiple OMs?), and, above all, look for the common themes that run through most posters' messages... themes that will usually take you back to core/fundamental DB-ing principles. Look for commonality across posters, things that everyone seems to agree on, and gravitate towards posters whose situations and experiences seem closest to yours, and learn from their successes and mistakes. And, i would say, try harder to find similarities than you try to find differences between other sitches and yours. It gets very tempting to say "My WW is different because..." or "I think what my WW is doing in this instance is acceptable because ________________". Again, i have been there.
Second, a few more words about "ending the affair." As i intimated previously, i am with Sandi2 in believing that if a LBH stands firm against living with a cheater and/or allowing an affair to continue with someone living under his roof, the timeline for any reconciliation (and keep in mind quite often no reconciliation happens or is even possible-- nature of the beast) can be significantly shortened. What i am about to say needs to be caveated with the following: YOU cannot "end the affair." Only your WW (or OM, or both) can "end the affair." You have no control over anyone except yourself. Having said that, you CAN do things that will make it more likely that SHE will ultimately end the affair. (Again, mind you, there are no guarantees, and you can't count on this happening or rely on it's occurrence for your happiness-- sometimes, your marriage is just "over.") Thankfully, most if not all of those things you can do are things that are YOU-focused... things that will make you a better, more confident, and happier "you.":
-- DETACH. Detachment does NOT mean giving up all hope of reconcilliation, nor does it mean avoiding actions that may be in whole or in part aimed at improving your prospects of reconcilliation (This IS, after all, divorce- busting, right?) What it DOES mean is not tying your happiness and self-worth to a successful reconciliation nor to ANY actions your wife may or may not take. You are your own person and you do not need her or a marriage to her to be happy and fulfilled, even as you may prefer that outcome and work towards it, all else being equal. Make sense? Again, read the threads on detachment. And don't focus on fighting with your spouse, or condemning her and her affair. Focus on you. Do you know what the opposite of love is? No, its not "hate", it's indifference. And trust me, nothing gets under a WW's skin like being ignored. It may even help turn her back. Remember, you are never as attractive to her as when you are walking away... or when she doesn't know what you are up to. I saw this in spades in my sitch and it is absolutely true.
-- GET A LIFE. Already covered. Be a Twofeet that only a fool would leave.
-- SET HEALTHY AND APPROPRIATE BOUNDARIES/DEMAND RESPECT. This gets a little more towards the meat of "ending the affair." Here's the thing with affairs-- (and you can find lots of resources online about affair addictiveness without even trying) They are incredibly addictive. Take a lonely, unhappy, perhaps even neglected spouse (even if only in her mind--perception is everything), someone who has been married several years, is perhaps in or approaching middle aged or one of the dreaded "round number" birthdays, and add a mysterious stranger, or even any stranger, who suddenly pays attention to her, compliments her, makes her feel like a woman. It is intoxicating. Evan as a man it can be so-- i recall going out a few times during the rough months with friends of mine, and at one point i just decided "eff it, im just going to be me and enjoy myself", so i did... and women started to pay attention to me. Some, alot of attention. Young, pretty, women, too. And it was intoxicating and very, very tempting. The attention is like a shot of a drug... and you want more. For a WW in the throes of an affair, every contact with OM gives her that shot, that "buzz", that high, and she wants more. It is incredibly hard to break away from. At any rate, as many psychologists/therapists will tell you, the more advanced an affair becomes, at least in the beginning stages, the harder it can be to break away from. A "friendship" with a member of the opposite sex that is "toeing the line" of inappropriate is a lot easier for a WW to turn her back on then a relationship where there is hot and heavy texting and/or secret phone calls or, if it has gone that far, sex. In that sense, and assuming you have a willing and/or motivated WW, it is a lot easier for a WW to tear herself away from an extramarital relationship in the early stages, before it has become fully romantic and/or physical. I have seen this up close and personal and can attest to it. My own W, when the A was discovered, was only in the very early stages of an EA-- no romance or sex, yet, although there was some playful and mildly suggestive talk based on their conversation i inadvertently overheard. At that point it was merely an inappropriate friendship.. something that had gotten just a bit too close, but something about which W was still saying "we could never really do this" (have an affair.) At that point, i confronted her, and she said she cut it off... which she did... for a few weeks. Problem was, i did not follow up. I did not set any boundaries, nor did i demand any accountability from her. Instead, i let myself get talked into (by a well-meaning friend) letting her "explore and find herself", even if that meant seeing OM, and not "trying to control her" with any accountability steps or the like. And so, three or four weeks later, something happened. She met up with OM (probably with assistance from her toxic bff who was friends with OM) at a party, or girls night out, or the like, and things rekindled... and then advanced to the point of romance. Their conversations advanced from "We could never do this, it would hurt too many people" (OM was a good friend of mine) and "I kind of like you, too" (my wife in response to OM's blandishments) to, three months later, my wife, through tears, crying to OM "I just want to jump on you and run away with you and i know that if i come see you right now I wont want to leave." THAT latter sort of dynamic is MUCH harder to break away from, and so it was with us. Almost 11 months, to the day, from that point before my W fully cut the cord with OM and committed to renewing our marriage. Could i have shortened that time line by being prepared, and setting boundaries, and demanding accountability those couple of months prior at first BD? Perhaps....though it would have been much more likely had we had some sort of solid foundation of happiness and companionship previously, which we really did not. Our marriage was, in fact, pretty far gone, to the degree that i consider our recovery miraculous-- an act of God, if you will. Nonetheless, the lessons i learned from the situation are apt. It is clear that, had their been a better foundation (and maybe there was, IDK... my W seems to think now that we did have enough "good" history") that it would have been easier for my W to "snap out of it" and/or start down the road to reconcilliation in February of 2017 than it was for her to tear herself away after the relationship with OM had progressed. My counselor talks about skin to skin contact and oxytocin and how powerful it is but, bottom line, an affair is easier to leave in the formative stages than it is to leave once it becomes hot and heavy.
What does all that have to do with boundaries and respect? Glad you asked...
Continued...
Without respect, it is impossible for a woman to feel the kind of romantic love for a man that would underpin a marriage. Sandi2 has written extensively on this so i won't belabor it... besides, it seems self-evident. When a woman loses respect for her husband, she can become "wayward". She may actually even and often does actually "despise" her husband. This can happen for any number of reasons, but it can be addressed in the case of a WW who is in an affair by establishing good boundaries. Some particularly good boundaries are:
"I will not tolerate being yelled at or verbally abused."
"I won't get into an argument in front of the children."
"I wont share my bed (or, better yet, house) with a woman who is cheating on me."
All of these dynamics/events are things that can and obviously would tend to decrease a woman's respect, and, thereby, her desire, for you.
The consequences for violating these or any boundaries are up to you, but the boundaries should be clear, as should the consequences for violating them, and the consequences should be AUTOMATIC. Example: Wife starts shouting at you (for whatever reason), Consequence: You say "I won't be shouted at" or "I won't engage in a discussion with someone who is shouting at me" (or whatever), said in as cool, calm, and confident a manner as you can muster, and then you simply turn your back and walk away. Leave the house if you have to, but don't engage. The consequence of the disrespect of yelling at you is that she is deprived of your presence and the ability to continue the abuse. it gets a little dicier with removing her from the bedroom and/or the house, as you start to run into potential legal issues (you should know the law in your jurisdiction on such things) but, generally speaking unless something extreme is going on, you can't "force" her to leave. You can make her feel extremely uncomfortable and unwelcome and perhaps she will leave on her own, but bottom line is you may ultimately be the one to have to walk. Better if you can maintain ownership of the master bedroom, but not always possible. At any rate, the point is that you should have firm boundaries and firm consequences in place to enforce them when they are violated. You should read up on boundaries if you have not already.
The above is why it can be problematic to "confront" a WW who is having an affair. Once they know that YOU know, if you fail to act you can look weak, which can further degrade the respect dynamic. What woman is going to respect a man/husband who would stand for her seeing another man while living under the same roof?!?! And when a woman is in the throes of an affair, with the seratonin and oxytocin kicks and hits coming every so often, there is no way she is going to "break free" of that and return to a man she does not respect. No, for a WW to truly turn, she has to, as Sandi2 has written extensively about, suffer a "loss". In other words, she has to face the real-world consequences of her actions. One of those consequences has to be losing YOU.
This is why the dynamic in my sitch was so complicated. Me and my W had almost NO foundation for our relationship. She had no respect for me, nor did she have any reason to respect me. We could probably not even have been called friends. So, at the point of BD, "losing" me was not really any loss at all, at least not an obvious one. However, when i found out about the affair, and confronted her, she did cut off contact with OM for a brief period. So, even though i had not established firm boundaries with firm consequences, i was given a sort of reprieve. The problem was, without the respect, and without any other reason or plan to rebuild the marriage, she fairly quickly (about 3 weeks) fell back in with the OM. Thing is, and this is probably a blessing, I did not know she had. Oh, i suspected, of course, but i didn't say anything... told myself she was just going through a hard time. It wasn't until i found her burner phone about two months later that i knew. At that point, after having been told on this forum about "boundaries", i skipped merrily off to establish mine. "I will not share you or live in an open marriage" i said. But that was about it. No transparency plan, no accountability plan, no statement of definitive consequences if she saw OM. We then went through about a two month period where we danced around the issue, with her still doing things like staying out late with the girls (sometimes where she would see OM, i came to find out) and engage in other WW behavior (though we were also going to counselling during this time). I ultimately discovered that she HAD been seeing and talking to OM, and shortly thereafter discovered her second burner phone. At that point, I walked out. And this had a DRAMATIC effect. She wept, asked me not to go, promised to go to counselling, said she had just needed time, etc.. This time, however, i was more prepared. "You want to reconcile?" I asked. "Fine". If so, I am going to have some boundaries, and there is going to be accountability, and transparency. I stated my boundaries clearly and defined what the non-negotiables were: 1) No OM in any way shape or form 2) No girls weekends with bff 3) no post work wine-downs with male doctor and his secretary 4) etc. Any further transgressions and i was done. I would walk. And, by this point, we had actually started to re-establish a connection, to realize that we liked each other and spending time together, and, most importantly, she had seen my GALs were permanent and that i was resolute in the face of disrespect (remember she did not KNOW that I was aware of her cheating for a period of time, yet did nothing.)
From that point on there was a steady improvement in things between us on multiple levels, though there was still a barrier between us. She hadn't quite gotten over the hump. I found out in Late March of this year that OM had been contacting her regularly by phone at work, despite having been confronted by me AND told by her not to. She had been entertaining his calls, though she had not been seeing him (of this i am certain.). But even this alone was enough to keep her from fully giving herself back to our relationship. When i found out, I walked. I was done. And she knew i was done. If not for our counselor, who is just the best, that probably would have been it for us. She brokered a reconcilliation and... here we are.
The lessons and takeaways from all of this? Whew, IDK, lets see... prolly some I'll miss:
1) Know youre situation. Know what you want. Know what you can and cant live with. For me, I knew i wanted to try to save the marriage, and I knew i could take her back after infidelity. What i didn't have a good grasp on was my situation and its implications for reconcilliation. I knew nothing about WAWs or Wayward Wives or how they behaved and responded, nothing about boundary setting, and, really, i did not have a good idea how hopeless our situation was. Later on in the counselling process but before the final blow up and commitment to reconciling, in one of my individual sessions, I filled out a battery at the insistence of my counselor that sought to identify "marital satisfaction." year by year. The scoring parameters indicated that a level of satisfaction showing 10% or less of the married years as "very satisfied" or better were almost hopeless in terms of reconciliation. I scored between 15 and 20%, and i guarantee my W would have been at 10% or below. Had i known more about the WW phenomenon, i certainly would have taken stronger steps early on to set boundaries and reclaim my self respect and possibly her respect. OTOH, had i realized how fragile and ungrounded our MR actually was, that might have indicated a softer tack. At any rate, things turned out well for us but, i think, mostly by the grace of God. My point here, is that knowledge and self-awareness is power and strength. Be informed and be aware and use what you learn. Which brings me to:
2) Respect. Is there a respect void that needs to be remedied? Has your W been habitually abusive to you verbally? Nagging or denegrating to you in front of the kids? That should be addressed. Is there still an affair? Does she know you know about the affair? Act accordingly.
3) She has to experience the consequences of her actions. She has to experience loss. Divorce and affairs are messy, messy, nasty business, but every single WW, without exception, thinks they will ride off into the sunset with their AP, that their kids, family and friends will be perfectly allright with it, and that no one will hate them and that they will live happily ever cheating after. She needs to find out how wrong she is. This means that if she screws up, you let her screw up. Don't cover for her or make excuses with the kids (This doesn't mean you necessarily "out" her affair, either-- that can be a very dicey, harmful, and messy proposition, and doing so or not doing so is fairly controversial... but you can let her take the heat for being late or messing up or whatever without spilling the beans and, if she gets caught by them with OM well.... on her. Dont cover for her.) If you are the primary breadwinner, then you do not subsidize her activities that might tend to serve her affair (hair and beauty expenses, gas to go see OM, etc.) Most importantly, she needs to see what it's like to lose you and to lose her happy family (assuming it ever was happy.) sandi has also written extensively about this, so i urge you to read and reread her stuff.
4) Dont get discouraged. There is always hope, even if it is a slim one, and, while you need to decide how long you think you can "give" her and this relationship, know that it may not take as long as LH19 and some others indicate. Every sitch is different. Mine took 14 months from BD to truly starting "piecing", and that was starting with a nearly hopeless marriage and with me making many missteps along the way. And if you want to be generous and say we were kinda sorta piecing by last August (the time period where OM commenced his regular phone calls), then it was only 7 months. I am somewhat torn on how to view it because i would say that she and i did in fact make some very real progress on reconnecting in that August to March timeframe. But, then again, my sitch was kind of weird and unusual in many ways. Point is, it doesn't have to be, and often is NOT, a "period of years", although it admittedly can be. It all depends on the individual dynamics, how you play it, how much time you give it, etc. At any rate, yo need to keep the faith, and "do you" as much as possible.
Did you know that every counselor out there (prolly even MWD, too) has a "losing record" in terms of saving marriages? Nature of the beast, man. When we reach this point, things by definition tend to be pretty hopeless. But DB-ing is as good a system as is out there anywhere else, and one of the BEST things about it, one of the reasons it is SO good is that it focuses on YOU. What can YOU do for YOU. How YOU can have an awesome life, with OR WITHOUT your current spouse. That even though there may be pain and tears now, during the night, joy can come in the morning.
Keep the Faith. And God bless.
(Also, last note, if you havent', look up the lighthouse poem. it is pretty good stuff. Be the lighthouse.)
Just one more thing: Sandi2, if you read this and i have in any way done violence to your opinions/positions/theories, please please please correct me. Youre help has been invaluable.
Speaking of which: Anyone know where Sandi2 is and if she is okay? Haven't seen her or artista on these boards in over two weeks.
Sorry to threadjack but Hoosjim I could really use your wisdom. Could you swing by my thread if you have time? Thanks!
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2808040&page=8
Yesterday evening she came home with the kids a little late so dinner was ready when they got home. She had a lot of tension, anger, frustration just reverberating off her. It felt like you could literally see it. I gave her plenty of space and focused on the kids. It got to the point were it was like the elephant in the room. I say I feel like there is some tension coming from you, is there something you need to discuss? She says no her day was rough and her Dad is swinging by to drop off a recipe and say hi and she wishes she would have said no. I said I can understand how a bad day a work can be frustrating and how your Dad causes you anxiety. After he comes and goes she is just being short and distant. She starts talking about splitting up marital assets and getting lists started this weekend. In my head I am thinking about how this feels wrong and this is sounds like it's going to be difficult and hopefully I can keep it from getting nasty. The good thing is that she can longer read my thoughts. I'm not her open book anymore. She is also being super protective and secretive about her phone again... great we are going through this garbage again.
I kept looking at her yesterday evening and thinking in disgust how she doesn't respect me anymore. This attitude, indifference, anger and resentment towards me just shows the lack of respect. How can this man whom she says is a great father to our kids have zero respect. How could she have such unreasonable expectations, of me. I feel like it's never good enough. Sometimes I feel like maybe she never respected me and I was too blind to see it. We always had a strong foundation and had each others back, we acted like a team, a solid unit. Now look at us. It's just disgusting.
Needless to say I stayed chipper and steered clear of her last night. Played with the kids out back and took the oldest for a bike ride.
Last night my wife decided to go for another drive after dinner and not come back until the kids bedtime. It upset the kids, but she just ignored their feelings. She told me she wanted to go look at neighborhoods. I said are you sure you want to leave the kids? You do? Ok well have a good time, hopefully you find something you like... Then before she left she started to tell me about how my BIL is interviewing for a new job that would pay enough for her sister to potentially work part time. At this point I have a pleasant outward appearance but inside I am upset she is leaving the kids after they asked her to stay and be with them. So I made a causal observation that was also a bit backhanded because I obviously am not detached enough. I say some stocks rise and some stocks fall. She says oh two feet you don't have to be jealous your stock is rising in your job and industry you are doing awesome. I say I am not talking about myself I am doing great, I will always be fine, I mean the stock in some families rise while the stock in some families fall. This felt like a mistake because she was very upset. She tried to bait me into arguing with her. She started mocking my intonation and saying I need to talk real be real, so I told her I am being real I am just trying to be a more positive person (this is a 180 for me). She says she just has to process this new look I am giving her (obviously from me doing DB, growth & improvement etc) and its all new and she doesn't know what to do with it. She then says something to the effect of this change in me being hard for her after all these years of being controlled by someone (ie me). My IC has been working really hard with validations and gave me some that are hard to say but work well. So I say, I understand how you feel, I would probably feel the same way I was married to someone as controlling as I had been. Well whatever wall she had up you could see visually crashing, she had this 5 sec second look of stunned silence, but then you could see the wall going back up and she said she was leaving and would be back.
That evening I was taking time to lay in each daughter in their bed and cuddle with them. My wife I think decided she wanted me out of the room as she is the one who is sleeping on a couch in their bedroom. I got upset because the girls didn't want me to leave yet and she was giving me the boot. We both got frustrated and she started making some weird hand gestures to represent her anger and frustration and went to use the kids bathroom. I told her I didn't understand whats going on and I am getting tired of the lack of respect. With no response I decided that it was time to head to bed. She later came down to talk and to smooth things over. She told me she was at an all time low right now, so I validated with I understand you are at an all time low, I am guessing you may be struggling too . I say Any healthy person would be struggling in her circumstance. She said she would be ok but she needed grace. Validated again with I care about you and and what happens to you, of course I will give you grace. She said thank you and it calmed her down so I went to bed.
This morning she seemed OK but cautious around me. Wanted to talk about sharing holidays and buying clothes for the kids as separate households. Internally I hate talking these talks, but I just let it go and cooperated with her thought process.
I feel I over came some obstacles and made some baby steps forward, but I just don't know if they are in the right direction. My IC wants me to validate my wife at least once a day even if that means I am the only to strike up the conversation.
Two feet, until you stop trying to control her and manipulate her you will continue to be frustrated. There is only one person you can control...YOU.
So when she chooses something over the kids, you choose the kids over all else! Lead by example. Talking vaguely about stocks and rising and falling does absolutely nothing but frustrate you, and make her feel the pressure. Your goal is to remove all pressure!
Also, next time just ignore her anger at you staying in the kids room longer than she'd like. Let it roll off of you like water off a duck's back. When she comes to you later you can honestly say "Oh you were upset? I didn't notice. My attention was on the kids and their wants and needs. Sorry if that upset you." How can she argue with you putting the kids first?
Two feet, until you stop trying to control her and manipulate her you will continue to be frustrated. There is only one person you can control...YOU.
So when she chooses something over the kids, you choose the kids over all else! Lead by example. Talking vaguely about stocks and rising and falling does absolutely nothing but frustrate you, and make her feel the pressure. Your goal is to remove all pressure!
Also, next time just ignore her anger at you staying in the kids room longer than she'd like. Let it roll off of you like water off a duck's back. When she comes to you later you can honestly say "Oh you were upset? I didn't notice. My attention was on the kids and their wants and needs. Sorry if that upset you." How can she argue with you putting the kids first?
Steve I agree with you. I am being controlling, it is a complaint she has of me. Sometimes I don't realize I am doing it. I am trying to fix the problem and this isn't something I can fix. I should be letting go and working on myself. This in turn corrects the issue of being to controlling.
Two feet, until you stop trying to control her and manipulate her you will continue to be frustrated. There is only one person you can control...YOU.
So when she chooses something over the kids, you choose the kids over all else! Lead by example. Talking vaguely about stocks and rising and falling does absolutely nothing but frustrate you, and make her feel the pressure. Your goal is to remove all pressure!
Also, next time just ignore her anger at you staying in the kids room longer than she'd like. Let it roll off of you like water off a duck's back. When she comes to you later you can honestly say "Oh you were upset? I didn't notice. My attention was on the kids and their wants and needs. Sorry if that upset you." How can she argue with you putting the kids first?
Steve I agree with you. I am being controlling, it is a complaint she has of me. Sometimes I don't realize I am doing it. I am trying to fix the problem and this isn't something I can fix. I should be letting go and working on myself. This in turn corrects the issue of being to controlling.
When I say fixing the problem I mean the impending divorce.
So when she chooses something over the kids, you choose the kids over all else! Lead by example. Talking vaguely about stocks and rising and falling does absolutely nothing but frustrate you, and make her feel the pressure. Your goal is to remove all pressure!
Exactly right, the stocks thing was a very passive/aggressive comment. Twofeet, you generally did pretty good in that convo, you did some great validating it sounds like. But you're also making some missteps. Not sure if anyone has suggested "No More Mister Nice Guy" to you but it's a good companion read to DR. It's not what the title sounds like, it's about how outwardly "nice guys" are actually quite controlling and manipulative and it's about breaking out of that.
Thanks for the info AnotherStander. I ordered the ebook.
On another note for all the DBs out there. When the wife BD me she went to her parents to see if they could buy her a house or give her a loan so she could buy a house and get out pronto. They said no. Anyway my MIL was sending my wife houses to look at shortly after. Pushing her to live in a certain area. I went and had a heart to heart with the inlaws after BD to let them know I didn't want the D and we talked about being in each others lives, etc, etc.
I asked them out of respect for myself, for their grandchildren, and for any hope for the marriage to please only give their daughter moral support, and not to be involved because it just pushes the D faster. They both agreed that this was what is best. However, my wife told me my MIL is back at it trying to find houses for my wife this time she is listening to my MIL. The MIL just wants to get back into my wife's good graces, but she is also enabling and can be very controlling. Should I let it go, talk to the MIL, or talk to my FIL hoping he can put and end to it? I just dont need familial influence pushing things faster because my wife is hurting.
If my wife has to hit rock bottom to figure it out I can see the MIL doing everything she can to cushion or prevent that.
Stop trying to control your wife.
Don't talk to HER family any more about the R. Of course they are going to support their daughter, that is just the way things go. Any attempt on your part to insert yourself in their relationship is going to blow up in your face, and your W will resent you for it.
I read you loud and clear. Glad for these forums.
I had a real gutcheck tonight. Wife wanted to start a list to divide assets, etc. tonight. I told her I was truthfully too tired to do it tonight. She proceeded to tell me what she thought as far as who should get what. Then she started talking retirement and said she was pissed that I should get half her retirement. She earned every bit of that, advanced in her career while having 3 kids not because of me, but INSPITE of me and its BS that she should have to share it.
I tried validating her emotions, but she was crying and I think she is to far gone to care. (Btw I too have retirement it's just that I have always had the super stable but less earning career. So our retirements upon divorce would be evened out.) Anyway she goes on to tell me she has been planning the divorce on and off since the first year of marriage it just took 13 years to make up her mind.
I try validating her emotions, but I feel like it's not getting through to her and at the same time in my head I am thinking ouch that hurts. How selfish do you have to be to think that. I credit her for all my accomplishments, but she feels like she did it on her own dragging me as dead weight. I could have easily argued her statements, but what's the point in that. I know I kept my composure, but damn that hurt. That was definitely a " it's going to get worse before it gets better" moment. I know DB is to help me, but that moment definitely felt there is no chance in hell for a reconciliation.
I thought you were too tired? If so, and she doesn't listen to that, you take action. Get up and leave.
Validating her getting mad about the retirement was good.
Validating is not about getting through to someone. You're just listening and understanding while acknowledge their feelings as legitimate.
She is going to throw you under the bus a lot through this process, whether the marriage is saved or not. So get some thick skin.
Not arguing with her is smart, there's nothing to gain from it at all.
A lot of WAS's do what happened to you tonight, so take it with a grain of salt. Next time she brings it up, just tell her to draft it herself and you'll pass it along to your lawyer when the time comes. Have you spoken to a few lawyers?
I allowed myself to get drawn into the conversation. I should have walked away.
I feel like my skin has thickened and what she said didn't even get a reaction from me. Regardless, it was hurtful and was a mental check for me.
I have spoken to a lawyer and have one I can use if things go downhill. Currently we are planning on settling this through mediation with a lawyer/mediator that doesn't not represent either party.
TF, you're doing great man. I went through this in 2003. At the time had a 2-year-old daughter and a 5-year-old boy. My wife told me she didn't think she ever loved me. When I asked if there was even one redeeming thing about me. She thought long and hard and then said something I'm embarrassed to even mention, but here it goes, she said I didn't leave skidmarks in my underwear. Wow! Not that I held a job of respect in the community, made sure the house and yard were well taken care of, that I took care of the kids while she worked, made dinners and kept the house clean. That I performed preventive maintenance on the vehicles and even repaired them when I was able to. Not only on the vehicles but around the house too. No, I didn't leave skidmarks in my underwear. It hurt, she had no respect for me whatsoever.
TF notice I said my wife, we are still married to this day. She BD me in January 2003. We went to counseling and then she told the counselor in July she wanted a D. By the end of the month I had moved out and she even found me a new place to live in October with a year's lease. After Christmas, she told me again D was inevitable. I told her I never wanted the D but she could do that paperwork and I would look it over. By this time she had sold our home and we separated what little profit there was. She was moving on with her life and I was moving on with mine. Saw her and the kids almost every day. One night she had me over for dinner and she sat across from me and asked if she could hold off on the D. I told her for now fine but I wouldn't do this indefinitely. March of 2004 she asked me to come home.
But here I am back here again. Probably because I lost sight of what marriage is about. I'm too reading No More Mister Nice Guy. Because I feel that everything I do for my wife and family deserves respect and admiration and love and affection and intimacy and well you get my drift. It's taking me years to finally understand that I put my whole family under this covert contract to recognize me for all my good deeds and thinking my good deeds makes me who I am. And it doesn't we aren't our good deeds, in fact, most of the time their failure of recognition of our covert contracts makes us a tyrant and that is what they recognize us for. I have to remind myself every day that the things I do aren't for them, there for me. they can appreciate it or not that's up to them. My wife is noticing these changes in me.
Right now she is very unsure of our future or if she even wants to remain married. I'm sure this has been going on for a while but it came to a head this past April when I finally sat down and said what is going on. She told me she hasn't felt a connection with me for a while. My first instinct was to get angry because hell we had been through all of this before and I felt we've had a better connection the last year then we have had in our entire marriage. But I did notice that the last few months I had been feeling a lot of pressure and anxiety about us as well. The next night after the kids went to bed I told my wife I completely understand why she feels there is no connection and told her how I had been manipulating and controlling our entire marriage and could completely understand why would want out. I told her I knew she loved me and she appreciated everything I do around the house and for her and the kids. Later she admitted she had everything planned out to leave me around the first of May. I had no idea. The BD was coming but somehow I noticed before it dropped. After these talks, she was saying she could actually see us having a future again. The R talks seemed to be productive and we seemed back on track. But then a few months ago I noticed her more reluctant to talk about the R and so I said to her one night I know you want out and all I got was dead silence. A comment a few days later about feeling crowded hit home. That's when I started detaching. Give her space and time. Yes, it [censored] but I'm reading a lot and working on myself and for the most part right now I've avoided the BD although I don't think I'm out of the woods either.
But Danm TF you really are an inspiration. I backslid so many times I have no idea other than by the grace of God how my wife and I ended up staying married and had two more kids, making it through the building of a new house and all the other strains in our lives, but we did it. If we could do it then so can you. I'll be praying for you brother. Keep it up. Remember, don't believe anything she says and half of what she does. Validate, this is more for you then her. It keeps you from getting wrapped up in what she is saying. By her saying it and you not arguing your point does force her to evaluate hers. If you argue your point then she is stuck on stupid because she will justify her point no matter what. You are having a profound effect on her, but she will hide that at almost all cost. But when she does let it sneak out from time to time and she will. God help you don't latch on to it that is when you will backslide trust me on this one. Finally, she did love you once and no she was not contemplating divorce the entire time in your R. Always think positive about her and yourself.
Again18 I will respond to your kind words and comments when I have time to sit down this afternoon.
I just want to run by something to everyone for validation. Wife wants to go through splitting our stuff, I tell her not right now I am starting my morning workout routine. I say just write what you want, you have an idea what I want, I will look at lthe list later when I have time. She talks about who is getting the dinner table, she wants to sell the couch, etc. I say you sell the couch, say today on craigslist what are we going to sit on? What are you going to sleep on? (She hadn't thought of that one) I say I'm working out, figure out the list on your own, thank you. Then in the workout she comes in to bug me again, I stop what I'm doing. She has some kids items she wants to discuss. This time more firmly I say, do what's in the kids best interest. I will not talk to you anymore about this, you can figure out the list I will look later. Please leave thank you.
On her way out she is talking to me about needing to disassemble the reassemble things. I say I am really frustrated. I feel that you didn't realize half the things I did for this household. I will not be able to help anymore these are things you will need to learn to do on your own. She quietly says I know then leaves me in peace.
For me it felt good to finally tell her to get on with the divorce work without a shred of guilt or anxiety.
However half way through the workout she texts me she is our sons bed and feeling really ill and I need to keep an eye on the kids. I am wondering is this some ploy or temp check, but I felt it was appropriate to check on her anyways. She is laying there looking ill and says she has had a migraine since yesterday and its flaring up (she has suffered these for years). I check her head with my hand then check her temp. She isn't running any fevers. This is the first time since the first 2 days of the BD that there has been any physical touch. I was nonchalant, didn't linger, and I want to make sure she is ok. I just don't want to appear that I am pursuing.
The thing that's a bummer is that I had some individual GAL planned today that she didn't know about, but now I am going to need to stay home because she isn't any good if it's a serious migraine. She is a wreck.
Well, like you told her earlier that she doesn't realize everything you do around the house here is another example of something she will have to deal with on her own. Although I don't advise telling her these things. Watch the kids and tell her I hope you feel better soon then leave her. My wife sold our bed and then slept on an air mattress after that. No need to tell them what they already know. If she wants to sell the couch, let her sell the couch.
As for your telling her about all the things you do around the house that she won't get to depend on anymore, is it possible you have used all of these things you do as your way of setting her up? Think about this for a moment because I have done this for years. We clean, we do yard work, we fix things and with all of this, there is a hidden agenda that they (family members) are supposed to do in return, like respect us, love us, adore us, overall appreciate us. all the things we need but we don't tell them we need. However, it often times the things we think we need doesn't come in the form we want or not enough of or not at all. basically setting them up to fail because we are the arbitrators of this covert contract. Probably not an issue with your young children yet but definitely an issue for me with my teenagers where I felt they should know better. Just think about it.
I know things are going fast with your W right now which is probably why she has a migraine, but keep doing what you're doing. Take care of yourself find out who you are and prove you are strong enough to do this. I know that knot in your stomach feels like it's about to burst, that your mind will not let go of even the slightest hint that she is ready to see the errors of her ways and reconcile, only to be crushed by her insistence that you involve yourself in her quest for a divorce. Stay steady and calm, there is no motion on the rock that you stand on because you are the lighthouse and she is on the tiny boat in a storm trying to find her way. Right now she is going in the opposite direction but she will eventually find your beacon and I am betting she will find her way home.
Again 18,
Seems like most of the posts on these boards are about sitches and how to deal with them. I don't seem to many inner reflections, but maybe I haven't looked enough. Anyway here goes....
I haven't quite finished the Mr Nice Guy book however I don't think I am a true blue nice guy, but I do have nice guy tendencies/traits. I don't recall any child abandonment issues and all the historical child issues that cause Mr. Nice Guy seem weird and dissimilar. That being said while my childhood wasn't terrible it also wasn't great. Lets just say I got to were I am at today pretty much by myself without the help from my folks, I wasn't abandoned I just was extremely independent. The support I did receive came mostly from my wife who also was my HS gf. I don't fear being alone which is a nice guy trait. In fact I enjoy it. I do week long solo hiking and hunting trips. That takes a lot of inner strength to overcome the fear and loneliness in the woods. I do fear abandonment from my wife and maybe I have formed some level of codependency. She is all I have known from hs to my adult life. If that is a Mr. Nice Guy I don't know I haven't seen that in the book yet. The traits I do exude are covert contracts, being controlling, conflict avoidance and fear of abandonment. However like I said I don't think my fear of abandonment is necessarily because of Mr. Nice Guy. The covert contracts is a big thing. I didn't really understand what I was doing until I read it last night. Most of the extra things I would do was to earn unsaid favors in exchange for the hope/expectation of sex. No sex, then fights. However things that I did around the house alluding to the previous post such as assembling furniture, checking cars, building things, yard work, finances, etc., etc., came early in the marriage from the expectation of my wife that the husband does certain man things and the wife does certain wife things. As time progressed I would try to get her involved in some of these things so she would know how to do them. Unfortunately, it got to the point where I gave up because she lacked interest, care, or would get angry or upset. Somethings such as yard work we now typically do together. Our roles changed overtime in that I would do certain things as well such as cook because I was better at it. It has gotten to the point where there are things I do that she doesn't know or hasn't wanted to know how to do, but there is literally almost nothing she does that I cannot do. (Later in our marriage she pushed equal partnership doing things 50/50 which in theory is good, but from what I read in reality results in unreal expectations and disappointment.)
I have been controlling at times, part of the whole Mr. Fix It mentality. Its partially due to keeping things smooth, and unchanged like Mr. Nice Guy, but part of it is to be embarrassingly honest, because of a superiority complex. In aspects such as her career she has out shined me to the point I am not sure if I will ever catch up. Not that I haven't done extremely well myself. In the beginning of our marriage I was definitely not a conflict avoider and in life and work I am not a conflict avoider. However, with the wear and tear of time in our marriage I eventually became someone who tries to avoid conflict with my wife. I also haven't show a lot of emotion, because my belief and how I was raised was that emotions show weakness and men are strong. However after BD my thoughts on emotions have changed a lot and it actually feels good to open up emotionally.
I know some of these traits had been fading especially in this last year of our marriage, but it may have been too little too late compounded by other factors such as her own personal and mental issues, her outlook on life ,and how she contributes or see herself contributing to the marriage.
Needless to say while I feel like I am a well balance person which might be why I am handling my sitch and DB so well, I am FAR from perfect. I think why DB works well for me because it kind of fits in my own mantra of its your job to make yourself happy not your spouses job. I really hope we can get to the point of reconciliation, but you can honestly see if we get there we have A LOT of work to do.
TF,
Your sitch sounds eerily similar to mine as I see we are similar in age. I'm a bit further along in the process as my WAW has moved out and I'm still in marital home. WAW also would get "migraines" at times and rely on me to hold her hand.
As I've continued to DB and work on myself, W has only grown in her resentment and increased her disrespect for me as she sees me getting happier. She was and continues to be an emotional abuser and always will take a shot at me when the opportunity presents itself. Well the further detached I've become, the less I respond or react and it only frustrates them more. It's almost comical at the behavior WAW resorts to acting like a toddler throwing a tantrum. She has also said why it took her leaving for me to make these changes, I just say I can't control what was in the past but wanted to ensure I am the best version of myself during this transition period.
I'm not at any point near R, as I believe WAW to be in a severe MLC, but the cracks in her armor are starting to bust at the seems and a lot of family and friends are finally taking notice.
I'm finally to a point where I've let her go. Strange thing I messed up and pressured her back in June in which her reaction was to file. Coming into October and not a thing has been done since I really started DB'ing. She is now actively reaching out to my family and trying to come up with excuses to come by the house or neighborhood. I stand firm in my boundaries and don't tolerate the disrespect anymore and she just continues to seem to be around the corner on a consistent basis. I don't put any emphasis or expectations into these increased occurrences, but figure as long as I keep my side of the street clean and stay the course, I'll be fit and prepared for whatever happens with the next chapter in life...with or without her.
TF,
Your sitch sounds eerily similar to mine as I see we are similar in age. I'm a bit further along in the process as my WAW has moved out and I'm still in marital home. WAW also would get "migraines" at times and rely on me to hold her hand.
As I've continued to DB and work on myself, W has only grown in her resentment and increased her disrespect for me as she sees me getting happier. She was and continues to be an emotional abuser and always will take a shot at me when the opportunity presents itself. Well the further detached I've become, the less I respond or react and it only frustrates them more. It's almost comical at the behavior WAW resorts to acting like a toddler throwing a tantrum. She has also said why it took her leaving for me to make these changes, I just say I can't control what was in the past but wanted to ensure I am the best version of myself during this transition period.
I'm not at any point near R, as I believe WAW to be in a severe MLC, but the cracks in her armor are starting to bust at the seems and a lot of family and friends are finally taking notice.
I'm finally to a point where I've let her go. Strange thing I messed up and pressured her back in June in which her reaction was to file. Coming into October and not a thing has been done since I really started DB'ing. She is now actively reaching out to my family and trying to come up with excuses to come by the house or neighborhood. I stand firm in my boundaries and don't tolerate the disrespect anymore and she just continues to seem to be around the corner on a consistent basis. I don't put any emphasis or expectations into these increased occurrences, but figure as long as I keep my side of the street clean and stay the course, I'll be fit and prepared for whatever happens with the next chapter in life...with or without her.
EZdozit,
She has had migraines most of our marriage or at least since the birth of our first child. I can't remember. She has even been on prescription Rx for them at times. She is now on over the counter medicine. They can get debilitating for her, like now where she is just trying to sleep them off like a hangover, to events like vomiting from pain.
I don't know if my wife is WW, WAS, MLC or all of the above. She is def dealing with some mental issues and I know my family are really concerned and feel like they have seen it for years, (she has been dealing with mental issues our whole marriage which if you ask her now will say its all because of me) her family are concerned as well and they are starting to see the cracks, but I think they still have blinders on. Now that BD has happened I don't talk to them about stuff like that anymore. Thanks for the insight I know I read your sitch, but I am going to go back and read it again.
Again 18,
Seems like most of the posts on these boards are about sitches and how to deal with them. I don't seem to many inner reflections, but maybe I haven't looked enough. Anyway here goes....
I haven't quite finished the Mr Nice Guy book however I don't think I am a true blue nice guy, but I do have nice guy tendencies/traits. I don't recall any child abandonment issues and all the historical child issues that cause Mr. Nice Guy seem weird and dissimilar. That being said while my childhood wasn't terrible it also wasn't great. Lets just say I got to were I am at today pretty much by myself without the help from my folks, I wasn't abandoned I just was extremely independent. The support I did receive came mostly from my wife who also was my HS gf. I don't fear being alone which is a nice guy trait. In fact I enjoy it. I do week long solo hiking and hunting trips. That takes a lot of inner strength to overcome the fear and loneliness in the woods. I do fear abandonment from my wife and maybe I have formed some level of codependency. She is all I have known from hs to my adult life. If that is a Mr. Nice Guy I don't know I haven't seen that in the book yet. The traits I do exude are covert contracts, being controlling, conflict avoidance and fear of abandonment. However like I said I don't think my fear of abandonment is necessarily because of Mr. Nice Guy. The covert contracts is a big thing. I didn't really understand what I was doing until I read it last night. Most of the extra things I would do was to earn unsaid favors in exchange for the hope/expectation of sex. No sex, then fights. However things that I did around the house alluding to the previous post such as assembling furniture, checking cars, building things, yard work, finances, etc., etc., came early in the marriage from the expectation of my wife that the husband does certain man things and the wife does certain wife things. As time progressed I would try to get her involved in some of these things so she would know how to do them. Unfortunately, it got to the point where I gave up because she lacked interest, care, or would get angry or upset. Somethings such as yard work we now typically do together. Our roles changed overtime in that I would do certain things as well such as cook because I was better at it. It has gotten to the point where there are things I do that she doesn't know or hasn't wanted to know how to do, but there is literally almost nothing she does that I cannot do. (Later in our marriage she pushed equal partnership doing things 50/50 which in theory is good, but from what I read in reality results in unreal expectations and disappointment.)
I have been controlling at times, part of the whole Mr. Fix It mentality. Its partially due to keeping things smooth, and unchanged like Mr. Nice Guy, but part of it is to be embarrassingly honest, because of a superiority complex. In aspects such as her career she has out shined me to the point I am not sure if I will ever catch up. Not that I haven't done extremely well myself. In the beginning of our marriage I was definitely not a conflict avoider and in life and work I am not a conflict avoider. However, with the wear and tear of time in our marriage I eventually became someone who tries to avoid conflict with my wife. I also haven't show a lot of emotion, because my belief and how I was raised was that emotions show weakness and men are strong. However after BD my thoughts on emotions have changed a lot and it actually feels good to open up emotionally.
I know some of these traits had been fading especially in this last year of our marriage, but it may have been too little too late compounded by other factors such as her own personal and mental issues, her outlook on life ,and how she contributes or see herself contributing to the marriage.
Needless to say while I feel like I am a well balance person which might be why I am handling my sitch and DB so well, I am FAR from perfect. I think why DB works well for me because it kind of fits in my own mantra of its your job to make yourself happy not your spouses job. I really hope we can get to the point of reconciliation, but you can honestly see if we get there we have A LOT of work to do.
I think I misspoke. I think I mean I was too dependent on my wife not codependent.
I hear what you're saying, I'm in the same boat I can't look back at my seemingly wonderful childhood and say oh yeah that's where I started down this Mr. Nice Guy trail. I do know that I have always found myself super anxious around women I like. For instance, I was made completely aware that my W was asking about me to a mutual friend yet when we happened to meet at the market I couldn't bring myself to ask her out. She ultimately did it :-(. She had a son already when we met he was just about a year old. She had broken up with her son's father and had 2 restraining orders against him. She was currently unemployed but was buying a house and had just got a new pickup truck. On the other hand, I had a steady career and money to help take care of things. Within a month she had a job but her job required some odd hours of work so I took up taking care of her son and since I worked nights too it made it perfect. So, I guess I had a hero complex regarding all of this. Look at me I'm such a good guy to step in and take care of things. But failed to realize she was giving me a home, her family which extended to my family, a son and all the joys of a marriage to a wonderful woman. Not that I held back affection, on the contrary, I've always been super affectionate as well. Problem is there was always a covert contract of you will respect, appreciate and love me for all of these things I do for you. Any argument would bring up my wounded pride for these things I did for them and felt I didn't get enough in return.
The weekend is over and, it is time to start the week. Wish I had 1 more day before the workweek. So as in a previous post I had to skip some solo GAL plans Saturday because my W was feeling ill and had a migraine. Around 430 p.m. I checked on her and she said she was feeling better. I went to church by myself for a Sat evening church service. First time I had been to church in many years. It was a good moment, but emotional at times. We had been married at this church and all our kids baptized there. A lot of memories came flooding back and as I said it got very emotional. Went out to dinner with my folks afterwards. Came home to the wife being very unpleasant, but I was doing so well there was no way she was going to drag me into her hole.
Sunday W slept till noon the got up to eat lunch and to work out. The kids and I had been up till 8 so after I made them lunch we went to my MIL/FIL house for a visit. Came home and wife was extremely unpleasant, likely mad I took the kids to her parents house. I have a very good relationship with them and in these post BD times this it makes her upset. Was this why she was so cold when I got home? Possibly, as she had expressed thoughts like this a few days after BD. Anyway she wanted to know if I let her parents know that she didn't know we were visiting otherwise she might have joined. I told her that we let her parents know that W was working out and had her own plans. She seemed satisfied with my answer. Told her if she really wanted to go she just has to ask we would have waited. She says she knows that but didn't want to go. Anyway she takes the girls and the dog for a short walk because they are complaining she doesn't do anything or spend time with them, which has become the new norm unfortunately. At dinner she timidly asks if I made dinner for her as well. I say I make meals for everyone in this household. She looks relieved, but I find it all weird. At dinner she blames me for her poor health and her high stress. She says she can't wait for D and hopes it comes asap so she be stress free and get healthy again. I validate her and just let the intent of the comments roll off my back. After dinner she says she wants to go for a drive and will take some of the kids, instead she just takes the dog. The kids and I do our thing together then W comes home about 30-45 min before bedtime then sets up for bed on the couch in the girls room. Well we are all in there and I don't plan on stopping playing with the kids just because she wants to post up for bed early on the couch. The S and the 2 D and I start dancing to some music vids on the internet over the tv. Wife is trying to ignore us but can't help it and eventually stops what she was doing to watch us. It appears to lighten her mood and cut a lot of tension in the air. It felt nice to have the tension gone and to feel like a happy family again even for a brief period of time. Afterward I put the kids to bed. Here I am Mon morning ready to take on a new week.
You may want to slow down on the seeing the inlaws. The great relationship you have with them is very likely to turn to a bad one as time goes on. I wouldn't discuss things with them either.
So you told her that if she wanted to go she could have told you. I see your W is 35, I think she knew that. So I would advise you to skip the unnecessary convo.
Good job validating her feelings, but when she brings up D she is clearly delusional if she thinks that will be the end of her stress. If she wanted to be healthy now, she could do that. So don't validate garbage IMO.
You seem to be doing a good job of staying strong. Keep on...
You may want to slow down on the seeing the inlaws. The great relationship you have with them is very likely to turn to a bad one as time goes on. I wouldn't discuss things with them either.
So you told her that if she wanted to go she could have told you. I see your W is 35, I think she knew that. So I would advise you to skip the unnecessary convo.
Good job validating her feelings, but when she brings up D she is clearly delusional if she thinks that will be the end of her stress. If she wanted to be healthy now, she could do that. So don't validate garbage IMO.
You seem to be doing a good job of staying strong. Keep on...
Its hard with the in-laws because my wife isn't wanting to take the kids to visit them. She has already turned them down before, in fact she doesn't turn them down as much as she has pissed them off to get them to revoke their invitation. When they have stopped by my wife makes it uncomfortable and they don't stick around. My FIL is also my hunting and fishing buddy and we are pretty tight. However, when I did visit we didn't talk about the D. They know how I feel about it and I know how they feel about it and we just leave it at that.
I probably didn't handle the convo about the visit with the W as best as I could. I think she was trying to see if I bad mouthed her to her parents about not wanting to go. I also validate her not feeling well. I didn't validate that I am the reason, heck no.
don't believe the negative stuff but those positive comments those little sneak peaks of their true self those you can believe. Warning though don't latch on and start a R talk just nod in agreement and let it go. If you take the bait you will be bombarded with the negative again and a serious pull back as they rejustify their intent to leave the M.
I told her I was truthfully too tired to do it tonight.
That's fine but you don't want to keep putting her off as that will look like avoidance. Come up with an alternate day and time to discuss it and ask her if that works for her.
Anyway she goes on to tell me she has been planning the divorce on and off since the first year of marriage it just took 13 years to make up her mind.
Probably BS but she's rewriting history, and right now she BELIEVES her rewritten version so it's pointless to argue about it.
I haven't quite finished the Mr Nice Guy book however I don't think I am a true blue nice guy, but I do have nice guy tendencies/traits.
Very few people are 100%, but many are 50% or more. The point isn't to "decide" if you are a NG or not, it's to identify the parts of yourself that need to change and work on those.
The traits I do exude are covert contracts, being controlling, conflict avoidance and fear of abandonment.
GOOD! These are the things to work on, ESPECIALLY covert contracts. They are relationship killers! You attach all kinds of expectations to something but guess what, your spouse (or child or coworker or whoever) has NO IDEA what your expectations are. So their "failure" to meet those expectations are really YOUR failures in communication. Many of us here (me included) discovered this exact same issue about ourselves. The good news is it's relatively easy to work on once you're aware of it.
Most of the extra things I would do was to earn unsaid favors in exchange for the hope/expectation of sex. No sex, then fights. However things that I did around the house alluding to the previous post such as assembling furniture, checking cars, building things, yard work, finances, etc., etc., came early in the marriage from the expectation of my wife that the husband does certain man things and the wife does certain wife things.
Yes, the trouble is her expectations may have been completely different than yours. Have you read the Five Love Languages? Sometimes we do things that we think are "deposits" in our spouse's "emotional bank account" but in fact it's not even on their radar. Vice versa too, sometimes they do things for us thinking they're rewarding us when in fact it's something we don't even care about. So we think we are filling their account up when instead it may be sitting on empty and resentment is just piling up instead.
Needless to say while I feel like I am a well balance person which might be why I am handling my sitch and DB so well, I am FAR from perfect.
All of us have things to work on, and it's a lifetime job. Overall that was a great post with a lot of excellent observations and introspection! Now how can you adapt that into a plan for self-improvement moving forward?
I wish I didn't have to post here so often, but here goes....
So I looked at her who gets what list tonight. It's supposed to be 50/50, but she is basically trying to dump stuff on my list so she can cash out or force me to sell it and still cash out. She is saying she needs a downpayment for a new house ( not like I don't need a downpayment as well) and needs a new car. The new car is BS her car is barely 2 years old. She says my 8 year old suv is nicer. It's not but you can't argue with a WW/WAW. So, on the list some of the things are mine, but I don't want them so I tell her she wants this D so she has to sell it. She tries arguing with me, but I am not going to play ball. She then shuts down and gets frustrated. She says TF you are just trying to screw me over, you can just take this stuff and take less of my retirement in payment. I say I understand you are feeling frustrated and you feel like I am trying to screw you over, but if you want to be 50/50 then let's be 50/50, however, I will not be using retirement as payment. Well I thought this was the right thing to say, but maybe not because she starts getting vindictive. Her parents through the course of the marriage gave me some items that belong to my FIL and GFIL(RIP). They are heirloom items that I am to keep in the family. Well she wants me to buy her half or sell them. I say these items are to be passed on to our kids. She doesn't care. So I say I am returning these back to her parents if I can't afford to buy them. I refuse to sell them. She says let me think about. I calmly say we need to table this for another night as it's time to put the kids to bed. As I am putting the girls to bed she complains to me how difficult this is. I tell her I agree with her, and I think that it is intended to be difficult.
I am so forking p!$$ed right now. This is so forking greasy. We may not make it to mediation and it may go back to us getting individual lawyers. I guess I am still surprised by the new looks of anger, resentment, lack of respect dare I say hatred my wife shows me. Even during our biggest most heated fights I never felt the heat she is bringing. I guess I still have a hard time dealing with the thought "who the hell is this person?"
TF deep breath. I read a post today from an archive and it was from an LBS who was able to reconcile with his WAW. Here's what he said:
My wife and I have talked a lot about what was going on in our minds through the separation. I was positive through this period that she had written us off, she was not thinking about me and was out having a good time. In fact, she was continually thinking about us and working through issues in her mind. Don't believe what they say to you, it is soooo different from what is going on in their minds.
Your wife may not be going out and having a good time but still what you may not realize is that she is thinking about all these issues in her mind. Now if you are constantly telling her that her decision isn't the right one she will rationalize it in her mind that it is. For example, she says the D will be good for both of you. You say maybe it will be. Now instead of her thinking of how she can convince you that it will, she doesn't have to think that at all, but she's still thinking and now the rational side of the brain starts to kick in and she starts thinking uhm will it be good for us? You actually are disarming her by not engaging in the R talks. You give her space to think it through her issues while you continue to do your own thing to improve improve improve. Give her something she wants to come back to.
You're very early in this so hang in there.
Update on my situation. W and I haven't talked about our R for a while. not distant but not close either. I don't get any text messages or emails or phone calls during the days or while at work. I get the ILY on the phone and when she leaves and I know she does but I'm pretty sure I'm in the ILY but ILYBNILWY category. She did mention a trip out of town this week where we can have a date night dinner thing. We'll see how that goes. But TF I know you would give your left arm to at least to be in my place right now, but that isn't possible so keep working at it. I was where you were at one time and at least I have what I have now and I have no regrets. Knowing what I know now and doing this again still made the last 14 years and two more children more than worth it.
Thanks for the info AnotherStander. I ordered the ebook.
On another note for all the DBs out there. When the wife BD me she went to her parents to see if they could buy her a house or give her a loan so she could buy a house and get out pronto. They said no. Anyway my MIL was sending my wife houses to look at shortly after. Pushing her to live in a certain area. I went and had a heart to heart with the inlaws after BD to let them know I didn't want the D and we talked about being in each others lives, etc, etc.
I asked them out of respect for myself, for their grandchildren, and for any hope for the marriage to please only give their daughter moral support, and not to be involved because it just pushes the D faster. They both agreed that this was what is best. However, my wife told me my MIL is back at it trying to find houses for my wife this time she is listening to my MIL. The MIL just wants to get back into my wife's good graces, but she is also enabling and can be very controlling. Should I let it go, talk to the MIL, or talk to my FIL hoping he can put and end to it? I just dont need familial influence pushing things faster because my wife is hurting.
If my wife has to hit rock bottom to figure it out I can see the MIL doing everything she can to cushion or prevent that.
I found out that my W bought a house with MIL and FIL 2 years ago and they didn't tell me. W has now moved into that house. They were also helping W to hide money before BD.
TF deep breath. I read a post today from an archive and it was from an LBS who was able to reconcile with his WAW. Here's what he said:
My wife and I have talked a lot about what was going on in our minds through the separation. I was positive through this period that she had written us off, she was not thinking about me and was out having a good time. In fact, she was continually thinking about us and working through issues in her mind. Don't believe what they say to you, it is soooo different from what is going on in their minds.
Your wife may not be going out and having a good time but still what you may not realize is that she is thinking about all these issues in her mind. Now if you are constantly telling her that her decision isn't the right one she will rationalize it in her mind that it is. For example, she says the D will be good for both of you. You say maybe it will be. Now instead of her thinking of how she can convince you that it will, she doesn't have to think that at all, but she's still thinking and now the rational side of the brain starts to kick in and she starts thinking uhm will it be good for us? You actually are disarming her by not engaging in the R talks. You give her space to think it through her issues while you continue to do your own thing to improve improve improve. Give her something she wants to come back to.
You're very early in this so hang in there.
Update on my situation. W and I haven't talked about our R for a while. not distant but not close either. I don't get any text messages or emails or phone calls during the days or while at work. I get the ILY on the phone and when she leaves and I know she does but I'm pretty sure I'm in the ILY but ILYBNILWY category. She did mention a trip out of town this week where we can have a date night dinner thing. We'll see how that goes. But TF I know you would give your left arm to at least to be in my place right now, but that isn't possible so keep working at it. I was where you were at one time and at least I have what I have now and I have no regrets. Knowing what I know now and doing this again still made the last 14 years and two more children more than worth it.
Again18,
Thank you for the words of encouragement. I feel like I am doing well then I hit a road bump and causes me to swerve on the road a bit before I can get control of myself. Each time it feels like I recover faster. Her jabs hurt, but they hurt less as time goes on. Some of my possessions (not the heirlooms) I would have never though of getting rid of and now I am of the mindset that they are just things. I can get rid of things, I can always get new things. I have moments and memories of better times and I don't have to let go of those. They will be cherished.
This whole sitch just is the worse. I know is a marathon and not a sprint. I wouldn't wish it on my worse enemies. There are times alone when I am processing my emotions, and man it just physically hurts. I am seeking answers when there aren't any to be had at this moment in time. So I pray everyday for myself, my wife, my kids, our families and everyone on this forum. I will fight for my marriage, and I will fight for myself and my children. If the M ends and there is never any hope of R then I will still fight for myself and my kids.
I wish I had some advice for your sitch, but like you said I would give an arm to be in a place similar to yours. You have the ability to work on your MR. The only time the W even talks to me is briefly in the morning and a little bit in the evening. Never about much other than the kids, plans/schedules or divorce related items. Occasionally a temp check which I am usually pretty good and handling. So I am just standing here being the lighthouse and I see her drifting and its definitely getting worse. I really hope you and your W can work through this again and I hope you can evaluate yourself to see what brought you back into your sitch again.
One last note. After BD I quit trying to figure out what my wife is thinking. She is just an enigma, I see glimpses of her old self and maybe those cause her to doubt her decisions. However, she is still just an enigma.
So I looked at her who gets what list tonight. It's supposed to be 50/50, but she is basically trying to dump stuff on my list so she can cash out or force me to sell it and still cash out.
OK well it was just the first pass. Here's how these things work- she proposes a division. If you don't agree with it you counter-propose. The two of you work back and forth until either a resolution is reached or you agree you can't reach one and elect to go to mediation instead (or to court, which is the expensive route). Stop and take a deep breath. Look at this as nothing more than a business transaction. Quit looking at it like she's trying to "dump" on you, or "force" you or whatever. She can't force you to do anything, all she can do is offer a proposal that you can accept, reject or counter.
Look I know this is difficult, I went through it too. But I did exactly what I said above- handled it like a business transaction. I asked my ex to make a list, we made an appointment to sit down and discuss it, we went through it item by item and negotiated the details. And we came to an agreement that we both felt was reasonable. Neither side leaves a marriage "whole", you're both going to lose things. Try to detach and look at it like a mediator would and decide what is fair.
She is saying she needs a downpayment for a new house ( not like I don't need a downpayment as well) and needs a new car. The new car is BS her car is barely 2 years old. She says my 8 year old suv is nicer. It's not but you can't argue with a WW/WAW.
You're getting all wound up on stuff that doesn't matter. Your response to her should be "we are here to equally divide our assets in a fair manner, I don't care what you plan on doing with your half of the proceeds, that's not my concern. Let's stay focused on the task at hand." Right? She's probably trying to build her case that she "needs" more than half the assets but that isn't how this works. You divide up assets regardless of what your post-D living expenses are going to be.
So, on the list some of the things are mine, but I don't want them so I tell her she wants this D so she has to sell it.
Why is she responsible for selling your things? If they are your things then YOU either keep them or sell them. There is marital property that has to be divided up, and then there is property that belongs to each of you separate from the M. Marital property is split, personal property is not.
She says TF you are just trying to screw me over, you can just take this stuff and take less of my retirement in payment.
Didn't you say that you have retirement savings as well, and it's basically a wash? She keeps hers and you keep yours? If so then tell her that. That might alleviate a lot of her frustration.
Her parents through the course of the marriage gave me some items that belong to my FIL and GFIL(RIP). They are heirloom items that I am to keep in the family. Well she wants me to buy her half or sell them. I say these items are to be passed on to our kids. She doesn't care. So I say I am returning these back to her parents if I can't afford to buy them. I refuse to sell them.
There were some things my in-laws gave me during the M that my ex felt belonged to her since we were D'ing. The thing is, she was right. The in-laws gave them to me as a good faith gesture that we would be married for good and the items would be passed down. But we didn't stay married and I didn't argue about it, I let her keep those items. I do agree with your gesture that it would be better to give them back to the in-laws than sell them though.
I guess I am still surprised by the new looks of anger, resentment, lack of respect dare I say hatred my wife shows me. Even during our biggest most heated fights I never felt the heat she is bringing.
Are you sure this isn't going both ways though? It sounds to me like there's a lot of fire going both directions. You can't control her but you CAN control you. And when you can control yourself and stay calm while she's raging, it will change her perception of who you are.
So, on the list some of the things are mine, but I don't want them so I tell her she wants this D so she has to sell it.
Why is she responsible for selling your things? If they are your things then YOU either keep them or sell them. There is marital property that has to be divided up, and then there is property that belongs to each of you separate from the M. Marital property is split, personal property is not.
We are a community property state. All personal property purchased during the marriage is owned by both parties. I guess I don't want to delay the D, but I don't want to do the legwork. Maybe this is just one of those things I need to do.
She says TF you are just trying to screw me over, you can just take this stuff and take less of my retirement in payment.
Didn't you say that you have retirement savings as well, and it's basically a wash? She keeps hers and you keep yours? If so then tell her that. That might alleviate a lot of her frustration.
Its not a wash. She has made more than me in our careers her retirement reflects this. Her career is higher paying higher risk while mine has been less paying, but extremely stable even though both require similar levels of education. The lawyers I consulted with said I should split the retirements so we walk away equal. We supported each other in our M and our careers which allowed us to get where we are.
Her parents through the course of the marriage gave me some items that belong to my FIL and GFIL(RIP). They are heirloom items that I am to keep in the family. Well she wants me to buy her half or sell them. I say these items are to be passed on to our kids. She doesn't care. So I say I am returning these back to her parents if I can't afford to buy them. I refuse to sell them.
There were some things my in-laws gave me during the M that my ex felt belonged to her since we were D'ing. The thing is, she was right. The in-laws gave them to me as a good faith gesture that we would be married for good and the items would be passed down. But we didn't stay married and I didn't argue about it, I let her keep those items. I do agree with your gesture that it would be better to give them back to the in-laws than sell them though.
I told her she can have those items to be passed down, but she would rather sell them or that is what she is thinking at this point. Hence I would rather give them back to keep them in the family.
I guess I am still surprised by the new looks of anger, resentment, lack of respect dare I say hatred my wife shows me. Even during our biggest most heated fights I never felt the heat she is bringing.
Are you sure this isn't going both ways though? It sounds to me like there's a lot of fire going both directions. You can't control her but you CAN control you. And when you can control yourself and stay calm while she's raging, it will change her perception of who you are.
I do stay calm and we are trying to work this out. If I can't stay calm I tell her I need to bow out for a moment or ask if we can talk about whatever the topic is at another time. I think what the disconnect is would be that I am expressing what I feel on the inside to this community. Its not what she is seeing.
Lastly, If I need to I could just give in an walkway from all this. Likely, if I didn't have children I might just give her what she wanted and drop the rope. However, I am trying to do this with my children's best interest and how I can take care of them to the best of my abilities. I probably need to rethink on how to handle this.
Quick question. Anyone have a WAS/WS that won't look you in the eyes when they talk? Today this is my W new thing and I don't know what to make of it. I respond like normal and look at her even though she is always looking away. It's weird and I don't know it means if anything.
Well yesterday she refused to look at me when she talked to me. This morning she was in a good mood, talkative and looking me in the eye when she talked. She did mention she didn't trust me anymore (not the first time since bd) wrt splitting assets. I validate her feelings, let her know I just want to be fair and equitable so it works out best for both of us. Then I keep carrying on with my morning. She thanks me for taking care of the kids today and heads out early.
She is a roller coaster, but at least the ups are easier to deal with.
She looked so good this morning I just wanted to tell her how beautiful she is. Can't do it though, don't want to pursuit, need to DB.
Oh guilt big time.....it is so obvious and there are times when I make my WW look at me so she can feel the pain. They know it, they just want to ignore and repress their actions.
Quick question. Anyone have a WAS/WS that won't look you in the eyes when they talk? Today this is my W new thing and I don't know what to make of it. I respond like normal and look at her even though she is always looking away. It's weird and I don't know it means if anything.
Yep! After my W left any time she came to pick up D, she could not look me in the eyes. We're so bad we haven't even seen each other in like 4 months. Can't even remember the last time.
Guilt/anxiety/something else you'll have absolutely no clue on...
My WW has been the same way. Her eyes also dart around alot when shes talkong i noticed. Definitely guilt and dishonesty kicking in. I would never believe a damn thing she says....and she knows it. Shes told some ridiculous lies durinf our sitch to me and anyone else involved.
So, on the list some of the things are mine, but I don't want them so I tell her she wants this D so she has to sell it.
Why is she responsible for selling your things? If they are your things then YOU either keep them or sell them. There is marital property that has to be divided up, and then there is property that belongs to each of you separate from the M. Marital property is split, personal property is not.
We are a community property state. All personal property purchased during the marriage is owned by both parties.
Well then it's not YOUR property, it's marital property. Marital property is split, personal property is not. The two of you have to resolve how to handle property that neither of you wants. If you don't want to sell it and she doesn't want to sell it then donate it.
Its not a wash. She has made more than me in our careers her retirement reflects this. Her career is higher paying higher risk while mine has been less paying, but extremely stable even though both require similar levels of education. The lawyers I consulted with said I should split the retirements so we walk away equal. We supported each other in our M and our careers which allowed us to get where we are.
Not necessarily. 401K's are very tricky to determine. If one or both of you already had your 401k before you got married then it's not ALL marital property. So you would have to present to a judge what you think your share of it is (and her share of yours). So you have to determine what amount was in the 401K at the time you got married and then figure the interest accrued from there, and that portion is not marital property. It's kind of a nightmare trying to sort that though, because the interest accrued varies so much from quarter to quarter and it can be difficult to pinpoint how much was in the account at the time of the M. If both of you didn't start your 401k's until you were married then it's easier to determine the split.
I do stay calm and we are trying to work this out. If I can't stay calm I tell her I need to bow out for a moment or ask if we can talk about whatever the topic is at another time. I think what the disconnect is would be that I am expressing what I feel on the inside to this community. Its not what she is seeing.
OK that sounds fine. It's difficult to sort through everything but important to maintain your composure throughout.
Ok so The morning was good but the evening is turning sour. I am staying upbeat and pleasant, but when she talks to me it is in a mocking or snotty upbeat tone. I'm getting really tired of this sh!t. If it was a man I would confront them and be in their face about it. It's a woman, and my wife who is WW/WAS. Should I just ignore her and go about my business or man up and confront this disrespect?
What are your boundaries? Remember boundaries are not about controlling her actions, but putting consequences in place ahead of time. For example if she is mocking or snotty you can simply tell her that you won't converse with her if she continues like that. The key is that you have to follow through, otherwise they are simply empty threats. If she is constantly disrespectful are you in a position to ask her to leave the house?
I kicked her out of the MBR for having an EA. I have tried to make her leave the house, but legally I can't make her leave.
I carefully confronted her about her attitude she said she was just tired, stressed, frustrated from work, life, etc. I validated her feelings then took the 2 oldest and left the house to run errands. I needed space and she needed space. Came back home and she was nicer by this time and sincerely thanked me for running errands and taking the girls. As I said before she is a rollercoaster.
Lol my WW is exactly the same but I bet x10, a real nut job. I used to put up with the abuse but yes boundaries will work. When she gets that way leave the conversation, let her know you won't engage in it anymore. My WW even when intoxicated has changed her tone to keep me engaged.
Question for the DB vets.
How much do I tell the W about my GAL? If it's with the kids I obviously have to tell her what's going on and she knows there is always an open invitation to family time on my part. But solo GAL? She obviously wants to know my business and she shares some of hers. Although I believe nothing she says anymore.
What and how much do I share? I also know she could try to use this against me to get really wayward, but I guess apart of DB would be to let it roll off my back until it affects the kids lives.
Remember we both still live in the same house. If we were separated it would be a different story.
What are you worried that she could use against you?
Obviously you need to be responsible for the kids, but when it is your time to be free and get out of the house you don't owe her any information. Just tell her you are going out. You are getting on with your own life without her. As an added bonus it may create an air of mystery as she wonders what you are doing. She is checked out on the relationship so you don't owe her any more information.