Previous thread:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2800994&#Post2800994Just reposting last post from previous thread here. Hope I did this right and don't upset Cadet....
Hi Steve - thanks for detailed feedback as always. Yes, I had started to read your threads and will continue to do so. Remarkably similar, so really helpful to see how you managed your sitch, as I'm sure there are lots of learning points.
WAWs do not come to the idea of leaving their marriages quickly. Most experts I've read said that they've moved on from the MR for 2 years or more before they ever drop the bomb.
She's been moving on mentally and emotionally for 2 years, but you think it can be fixed in a matter of days, weeks, or months?
I do keep telling myself she's been out of this relationship for a long time - I think far longer than 2 years tbh. More like 4 or 5. She tells me she's not felt like being intimate with me for more like 10 years. Nice. This is part of the reason why I am so surprised she picked #2 rather than #1, but also why I don't have high expectations at all that whatever work we do with the MC will turn her around. I actually don't think this will get fixed a few days or weeks, but was just surprised she flip-flopped in such a short space of time. Maybe I shouldn't have been, give WAW tendancies.
And thanks for the tip on the MC. Actually, we have scheduled to see the same person we saw together just after BD, and that my W saw individually for 1 session to help her think over whether it was possible she could feel differently about me after all this time. The outcome of the session my W had was that the MC thought it was unlikely she would get the love/desire/spark back, and this was a contributing factor to my W's original decision to go for #1 not #2. So now I think about it, I am wondering if she is the right counsellor to go back to together. She does have the right type of experience and expertise for our particular sitch, but I am now concerned she might be more the divorce counsellor like you suggest. Maybe we'll have 1 or 2 sessions and see how it goes since she does know us, and we both did like her.
What I can guarantee is that pursuit, pressure, snooping, etc.......they do not work.
Yep, roger that. I have stopped all of that activity, and actually am feeling much better for it. I think that means I am doing better at detaching, but maybe it has also been helped by her telling me (and me believing her) that she is no longer seeing the OM. I can see in her behaviour and activity patterns that this is probably true, and it does take a lot of the anxiety away and enables me to focus more on the main issue between us. Sounds like you had the perfect result after a lot of hard work, and that's something I can definitely aspire to.
Given your BD was only 6 or 7 months ago, it seems you and your W have made a lot of positive progress in quite a short time. How long was it before you felt she was turning after the start of MC? You suggest a month below, but presumably you saw positive signs through the homework you were doing. Also sounds like keeping it light and fun was really important - something I also think will be critical for us, given the intensity of everything at the moment. I just want us to enjoy ourselves again, and need to find a way to get this back without making it forced or false - which has been the case before when I tried too hard.
What should I look out for to indicate my W might be turning a corner? I know I'm a long way off that, but worth noting to see if the MC coupled with my continued DB'ing is having any effect.
And do you have any views on how long to wait (or what relationship milestone to hit) before thinking about her return to the MBR? Again, I don't plan to rush into this, but I've seen someone say elsewhere (not sure if it was my thread or someone elses), that if you are working on the R, then you should both be in the MBR to create the new normal. I don't feel ready for that yet, but I guess there is some logic to the statement, so wondered what your thoughts were.
Thanks again.
If you are piecing then you should both be in the MBR.
W has shown no interest in R at all, so this is not relevant.
OK let me ask this, what was it about you that WAS was attracted to?
What did you stop doing to woo her even in M?
Did you have date nights?
Did you lose interest in you?
Did you lose interest in her or sex with her?
-------------------------------------------
Now it is said that generally men have intimacy for sex and women have sex to get intimacy. WAS does not feel emotional connection to you and despite that she stayed in the M. That is some doing. Classic DB is bang on for you, trying to get WAW into the MBR will repel her completely as she does not have that connection with you. That is something that YOU will have to TANGO. Please reread the books MWD clearly examines why and what you can do.
These intamacies are different. In women that's generally emotional connection and in men physical. So WAW does not mean what you think by her statement. You are lucky WAW is telling you very clearly in unequivocal words what is wrong for HER. Do not dismiss it, it is valuable knowledge and should be validated.
Do you know her love language? Do you know your own?
That would be a good place to start. What do you know about WAW?
Have you included building soft communication skills as a goal? Do you know about seduction and attraction? Do you really know?
All you seem to have in your toolkit is DB and wishful thinking. Let's see some real self development goals and including those skills that are needed to create intimacy.
V
Let me just be clear on what I am saying.
Is W wayward? Yes of course. Is that ok? NO.
There is no doubt in my mind that WW chose to want to rebuild with you and it was reluctant.
But if she is telling you that she felt no intimacy with you for 10 years and you were blind to it then that has to shift.
She will have to feel intimacy to have sex with you.
You may be sleeping in the same bed but it isn't a marital bed. So in some way that intimacy needs rebuilding otherwise what is the point?
You aren't piecing yet and working on M.
V
Thanks for the honest and frank assessment V. Lots of questions, all fair and to the point, and I'll try to my best to answer each, albeit some of them I'll need to think harder on, given I've clearly spent the last x years in some kind of relationship denial and missed all the signals, or maybe chose to ignore them. I think my NGS / conflict-avoidance is part responsible, the more I learn about myself and how I behave.
what was it about you that WAS was attracted to?
I guess I'm not bad looking, funny, can be charming, driven professionally, and would do anything for her. I was always the 'nice guy', rather than the a$$hole, was besotted, and we did love spending time together. I guess she saw me as marriage material, and we did have a chemistry. At least I thought we did.
What did you stop doing to woo her even in M?
I'm not sure. I always did nice things for her, bought her flowers, gifts, took her out. Not so it was monotonous, just semi-regularly. She's not at all sentimental though, so whilst I think she appreciated things I did for her, this didn't particularly float her boat. I guess when the kids came along, and all that comes with them, the focus was on them rather than us. I travelled a lot, and so had less energy for us, and that meant she had more space. And she likes her space, and got used to me not being there. She stopped being pleased to see me, I stopped making effort, it is spiralled down from there.
Did you have date nights?
Yes, not on a fixed schedule but we did go out the two of us, relatively regularly. Even more recently. But as far as I can recall, it was me who initiated these things, not her. I even suggested nights away and trips, which she did, but the ones I remember in recent years, with the benefit of what I know about how she felt, she was just going through the motions. I can't put my finger on precisely when the change happened tbh, but probably after the kids came along, which is quite some time ago.
Did you lose interest in you?
Do you mean interest in me, or her? If you mean me, yes, I think probably I got so caught up in trying to build my new business, having lost my job, and had to travel a lot and work evenings, weekends, holidays, that I lost my own mojo, probably was not as fun, and the downtime I had I spent with the kids, or trying to have a life outside of the family, rather than with her. She says I spent more time keeping others happy in that downtime than with her, which is what she really resented (not the work travel). I guess that's my NGS kicking in again. And something I really do need to work on.
Did you lose interest in her or sex with her?
I never lost interest in her or sex with her. Never. She is beautiful, sexy and I have always felt that way. Even as she has gotten older, she takes care of herself, and I want to be with her even more. I have quite a high sex drive, and so living with and loving her in these last few years when the feeling has clearly not been mutual, as been very frustrating for me. What happened was she gradually stopped trying with me, stopped responding to my affection, stopped being appreciative of things I did for her, and so I stopped trying myself, subconsciously at least. It's been very hard to take.
Now it is said that generally men have intimacy for sex and women have sex to get intimacy. WAS does not feel emotional connection to you and despite that she stayed in the M. That is some doing. Classic DB is bang on for you, trying to get WAW into the MBR will repel her completely as she does not have that connection with you. That is something that YOU will have to TANGO.
Funnily enough, I may go against the grain here. Sometimes I do just need sex, but actually what I am missing most at the moment is the intimacy. Are you saying she is some of kind hero for staying in the M for so long despite not feeling emotionally connected to me? And do you mean this means I should be DB'ing like mad to change how she feels?
Also, you say here that trying to get her in the MBR will repel her. Yet you also say if we are Piecing, then we should be together in the MBR. I'm confused. Maybe you think we're not actually piecing yet, and have work to do before we are, and she will move back in? What do you mean "TANGO"?
So WAW does not mean what you think by her statement. You are lucky WAW is telling you very clearly in unequivocal words what is wrong for HER
By 'her statement', you mean that she hasn't wanted to be intimate with me for a long time? And this means very clearly that she's had no emotional connection with me all that time? So I should be using that statement to work on getting that connection back?
Do you know her love language? Do you know your own?
I thought I did for both, but it's been such a long time that I'll need to work that out again. But don't we have to rebuild the connection, have fun, enjoy each other's company first, because we can go near the love part?
What do you know about WAW? Have you included building soft communication skills as a goal? Do you know about seduction and attraction? Do you really know?
I thought I knew her well, but since BD she has changed to someone I don't know or recognize, as it's clear she has been hiding how she really felt for a long time. I do need to work on communication skills. I thought I was ok at seduction but am clearly very rusty, and marriage and the drudgery of life has clearly numbed those skills. And that's why she went elsewhere to feel that 'spark' as she puts it. I have a lot to work on, I know, just don't know in what order to do so. I feel that really it should be about enjoying being with each other first - finding my old self, who she was originally attracted to, and enjoying being me again before I go anywhere near the seduction. Don't you think? I agree though, DB'ing and wishful thinking won't be enough. I will think some more on all of those things, but if you have suggestions on self-development and improvement, they'd be welcome.
Thanks again for taking the time to provide your guidance. It really is appreciated.
You may be sleeping in the same bed but it isn't a marital bed. So in some way that intimacy needs rebuilding otherwise what is the point? You aren't piecing yet and working on M.
Ok thanks, I think I just answered one of my own questions. We aren't piecing. We need to re-connect, in order to get intimacy back. Absolutely. That's my goal. It will take some time I know - it's been a very long time that she has felt the way she feels, and I've only just cottoned on to it, in relative terms. And she has chosen the lesser of two evils in wanting to try to rebuild, and yes, she is reluctant, making this all the more difficult and a challenge. But I have to try. I do love her, even if she doesn't feel the same, and that is what is driving me at the moment.
Thanks again for your guidance. I'm off to do some homework and set some self-development goals. And think about what I know about her. V - you've been very helpful. Thanks
Given your BD was only 6 or 7 months ago, it seems you and your W have made a lot of positive progress in quite a short time. How long was it before you felt she was turning after the start of MC?
Just to be clear we are going on 8 months since BD. We started MC in late January. it took about 4 or 5 sessions before she started to talk and act like she was all in for working on the MC. Before then she seemed like she was still on the fence and not sure if the MR was what she wanted or if she wanted out. It was very gradual though, almost imperceptible. It wasn't until our first session after a marriage retreat about 2 months in that she told the MC she was leaning towards staying in the MR. (Sorry if I repeat myself, I lose track of what posters I tell what.)
What should I look out for to indicate my W might be turning a corner?
It is the small things. The hand on your back, or sitting close. Sleeping close is a huge one. I think it is AS and I have talked about the "edge of the bed hover" that WAWs are capable of. Where they are so far to the edge of the bed it is as if they are hovering over the floor. That was my W completely. When she moved back to the middle of the bed was when I knew things were getting better.
And do you have any views on how long to wait (or what relationship milestone to hit) before thinking about her return to the MBR?
I agree fully with V. You aren't in R unless you are sleeping together in the MBR. It is impossible to rekindle intimacy sleeping in separate beds. It is imperative that that step be rectified IF any meaningful progress is to be made. Note, that doesn't mean you can't start MC without. Please don't misinterpret that. MC can begin before R and piecing. In fact, MC can be a valuable tool, with the right MC, to moving things back in the right direction.
I think it is AS and I have talked about the "edge of the bed hover" that WAWs are capable of. Where they are so far to the edge of the bed it is as if they are hovering over the floor.
Oh my. That is a thing? That is EXACTLY what she did. I just thought that's the way she slept. Now I think about it, she has probably been doing that for quite some time. Wow. That is a major revelation. Like a penny dropping. And my heart sinking....Ok, well now I know what to look for when the time comes. I think we are a long way off that though.
On the MBR, we won't have a choice but to sleep in the same bed next week on vacation. We'll see how that goes, and maybe when we get back I'll suggest she come back into our room. We aren't piecing yet, I can see that, but seems like she does need to be with me to give us a chance.
TBH, my head is spinning somewhat from all the things I personally need to work on. The more I think about what V said, the more I can see there is so much I should be doing and thinking about. I need to get these ordered in my mind somehow. And I am also reading NMMNG, which is also full of homework and exercises, although tbh, I'm not really convinced but much of what Dr Glover says. At its core, it's probably has some merit - I am definitely a very typical NG, and there are certainly things I could/should do differently, but the way the advice is conveyed is just so OTT. I think DB'ing first, self-development in parallel, and then thinking about get my old self back in that order.
Today I did have a bit of GAL. Went off to play cricket (a bit like baseball but less boring..!) - a work thing. Beers, BBQ and networking afterwards. Was fun. Not sure if the W appreciated me being out all day whilst she had the kids and their friends over to deal with - but she wanted her space so I gave it to her, and I GAL'ed. It should have been a win-win, but I can't help feeling it didn't come across that way to her. Anyway, I'll see how the weekend goes as we prep for the vacation.
Don't worry about how it came across to her, it's YOUR time and YOUR space you were using to GAL for YOU! It doesn't matter at all how it came across to her, and you're just speculating thinking about it anyway - you don't have a clue how she felt about it unless you were to ask her; which you should not.
Don't make this more complex than it needs to be, otherwise you will walk on egg shells and super question everything you do.
Remember this is about you being a quality guy, being self centred, not selfish.
That's all you need to do, put you before R or WW. What would you like to do on holiday, what are your choices? If WE wants to be different, let her, see you later WW. Go GAL for you and let WW come to you.
Head up, chest out and breathe.
V
Thanks for the pep talk hongaku and V. I do need that from time to time.
Being self-centred doesn't come naturally to me, but I'm definitely working on it. And I think self-centred and kids-focused is probably the right way for me to think about it. I need to be around for the kids as much as possible, not off doing my own thing, so will find the right balance. I will try to do that all week on vacation and see how it goes.
Head up, chest out and breathe. Got it.
I did not had a good day yesterday. Having been so disciplined about it for maybe 3-4 weeks, I fell off the snooping wagon last night, and am of course now regretting it.
Although my W surprised me by making the decision in the middle of last week (11th) to stay and work on our MR, deciding it was the lesser of two evils to stay with me (!), and we do have a MC session booked for next Monday 23rd when we are back from vacation, of course nothing has changed between us, and with no R discussion we are just in limbo again until the MC acts as our guide.
In the meantime, the scepticism with which I took this decision of hers has increased with each day that passes. I still don't trust her, don't believe she is fully out of her relationship with the OM (even though she says 'there is no relationship' and 'she hasn't seen him since 19 May'), and I am seeing no sign of effort on her part to change anything about how she interacts with me. We are getting on ok generally, have been busy preparing for the vacation and keeping the kids happy, and watching a couple of shows on netflix together, as we've always done. But it feels like she is still pretending and putting on a show. Which I suppose is just what she's been doing for a while, and why would that change just because she's uttered some words about preferring to try to work things out rather than cause destruction by D'ing. I guess it wouldn't.
Anyway, last Thursday she was out for the afternoon. I guess shopping, but my untrusting mind nagged at me that Thursday was the day she usually saw the OM, and whilst she said she wasn't seeing him, there was definitely a window in which she could have done before picking up D12 from her friends late afternoon. I let it go, giving her the benefit of the doubt and trying hard to start the trust if we were going to start to work on the MR.
Friday I was out as I mentioned, and W was at home with the kids. So no concern there. But then something yesterday made me do a little snooping to double check, because I do still see her carrying around her handbag that I know holds her burner phone that she doesn't know I know about and she used to be in touch with OM after she realised I could monitor her regular phone. Why would she be so precious about that not leaving her side, even at night, if there wasn't something she was trying to conceal? She also has a new laptop - bought so she could do things on a pc that I don't have access to, on a new email address that she thinks I don't know about. That has stayed in her room hidden under her duvet ever since she bought it maybe 2-3 weeks ago.
So I did do a little checking, and what I saw was that,on Friday afternoon whilst I was out, she had sent herself an email from the address I can monitor to the one she thinks I don't know about. The email was her forwarding an email she had previously sent herself from her phone to her PC earlier in the year (January - when A was in full swing) with an attachment with 4 selfie photos on it - all of her in various compromising positions and varying degrees of undress. There really can be only one reason why she'd be sending herself these photos - so she could do something with them on her laptop with the OM.
I know I'm supposed to not care, and be detached, but this just goes against everything we are supposed to be working on, so surely it's only natural for me to lose it. I had a quick look at her burner phone while she was elsewhere - it's locked and I can't get into it, but I can see from the lockscreen that there are whatsapp messages to be read. And I can see that she was active on that phone after she went to bed. The only people that have that number are the OM, and maybe her sister. Yes, the messages could be from her sister, but it's just too much of a coincidence with the photos as well.
I admit I had little sleep overnight playing out how I would handle this knowledge, and concluded that I would simply sit on, use it to detach further, and then in our MC session next week, as part of the discussion on rebuilding trust - which surely will be one of the first issues we discuss - I will ask her about the OM and push to re-state my boundaries. She is the one that wanted to try to R rather than the alternative, she has to stop seeing the OM and help me rebuild trust, or else we have nothing and what's the point.
Having got up this morning, done my swim and started to prep to head off on vacation, I have to say I am much more ambivalent about whether or not she is continuing to see, speak or message the OM. PA or EA, whatever. I know 2 weeks ago I was all set to tell the kids and we were heading towards S and D. My head was straight, I was prepared to move on, and was not affected by her at all. I suppose the chink of hope she has given me about getting back towards R set me back a little (but not totally) in my feelings for her, but this new knowledge has shaken me out of that stupour, and made me realise (if I didn't already) that what you all have been saying is true.
She is reluctant to R, can't give up on the spark she got from her OM, and I just need to detach and GAL for me. If when I confront her in front of the MC she admits to the continued contact with the OM, shows some amount of regret (am sure it won't be remorse) and does want to try to piece, fine, but if she denies everything and pushes back or refuses to give up the OM, well I'll be prepared for that and suggest we need to go back to the other alternative whether she can face it or not. I will not agree to work on our MR unless she is NC with the OM. Period. And I will then try to enforce my boundaries and have her move out after telling the kids if she won't agree to that. At least, that's what I'm thinking today. I have a few days to let that settle, enjoy the vacation with the kids, detach and then consider where I am later in the week.
There. Not great DB'ing I know, but perhaps I ended up in the right place in my head in the end?
Am I so wrong to want to know she is serious about trying to R and help me rebuild my trust before starting out on this journey? Because if she isn't, I just don't see the point. It takes us both to want to do it. She knows that, and I don't see why it should be just me doing all the work on myself (per Vanilla's post) to try to improve our relationship and she is just expecting to continue to cake eat. How can want to get back together with someone who is still in such a fog and shows me such disrespect? I deserve someone who wants to be with me for me, not because it's the lesser of two evils....
40,
As is often said here, every sitch is different. While true DBing would be to detach and stay detached that is easier said than done. When a WW says she wants to R and work on the MR, it can be an easy trap to fall into.
I think you are right, based on what you've said, that this is a delay tactic.She didn't want the kids to know, knew you were getting to the point of wanting to just move forward, and grasped at R and working on the MR as a way to slow things down again.
It is tough to navigate, I know because I've been there. My W was very reluctant to go MC. While we were in our first few sessions I was still snooping, and questioning her. Admittedly she still had things she was hiding. It made it difficult to decide which route to take.Ultimately I decided that I would just do what she was willing to do (even if reluctant) and let things fall where they may.
MC seemed like a waste at first. But as the MC gave us homework, and she actually started doing it!, it seemed like she slowly starting opening up to the possibility of really piecing and Ring. I remember in the first session, due to my snooping and knowing thing she didn't know I knew, I called for complete transparency. The MC said we weren't ready for that yet. I still didn't divulge what I knew.
Here is the thing 40, as we continued doing MC, as she did the homework, as we attended a marriage retreat and on the way home from the retreat started turning the corner, a lot of the issues just went away.
It is a strange side-effect sometimes. I've mentioned Mort Fertel before here. He is not a DBing proponent, but he is anti-divorce. One of his techniques is that you just don't talk about the problems in the marriage. You concentrate on the other areas of the MR. For some they'd argue this is pursuit, and maybe in a pure DBing setting it is, but there is something to be said for not beating the dead horse over the problems of the MR. As I said, the turning point on the way form the marriage retreat for us was to just hang out and start having fun again. We learned nothing on the marriage retreat that we didn't already know, but we did learn to just enjoy each other's company.
Look at the positives, she has agreed to working on the MR and going to MC. That is huge, lots of others here would give anything to have that occur, even if their spouses weren't completely into it at first. She doesn't want to tell the kids. Lots of other sitches here the WAS/WS has no problem completely destroying their families' and kids' live with what they are doing.
My advice is to go to MC. Institute the talk and touch charges I've mentioned to you before. Have a date night every week, or some other way that the two of you get out together away from the house, but don't discuss the MR! Just have fun, and enjoy each other's company.
But keep detaching. (I prefer the word self-differentiating) as being overly attached in a MR is never a good thing. Also keep engaging in GAL activities. And also make sure you keep up the 180s that you've instituted since BD.
You've got this 40. We all get week and snoop and pressure and pursue, or slip in GAL. The key is to after a mistake to get back up and go at it again!
Look let's differentiate between snooping and INTEL.
It's fine to check to get INTEL, anything beyond that is snooping.
You can't make decisions without INTEL.
V
Thanks to you both, Steve and V. I think you're right - intel is important and does help me decide how to play things with her day to day. I did feel bad at the time, but can see that, used in the right way and not obsessively, 'checking' whilst I have the opportunity isn't something I should feel bad about.
We're now on vacation and shared a bed for the first time in 10 weeks last night. Was fine. A bit weird, but we both just went to sleep as we'd shared the evening with some friends and a fair amount of alcohol, so just both dealt with it. No words spoken, just goodnight - although come to think of it, I think that was just me. Whatever.
Steve - just on your helpful insight, our think our sitches are indeed similar in some respects. I've been catching up on yours and am up to about the end of April.. so still some way to go. Our W's do show similar tendencies, although I am certainly not expecting mine to suddenly initiate sex any time soon! No problem with her libido, just she was using it with the OM and not me... I'm hoping our MC sessions do help turn my W around (and me for that matter), but am feeling like this is unlikely given as you rightly point out, this is just delay tactics and she really isn't invested in the process - yet. Maybe the MC session will be a turning point.
Ultimately I decided that I would just do what she was willing to do (even if reluctant) and let things fall where they may.
As regards our upcoming MC session, I have reached the same conclusion as you did about doing what she feels willing to do, but I do feel that in this first session I need to use the opportunity to push for transparency and test whether what she says about the OM relationship being over is really true. I'm debating as to whether to reveal that I know about the burner phone as part of that discussion as that will force her to be honest in front of the counsellor. Or I could just ask for transparency, get her to agree, then monitor whether she sticks to it with some continued 'checking'. What are your thoughts?
Look at the positives, she has agreed to working on the MR and going to MC. That is huge, lots of others here would give anything to have that occur, even if their spouses weren't completely into it at first. She doesn't want to tell the kids. Lots of other sitches here the WAS/WS has no problem completely destroying their families' and kids' live with what they are doing.
You are absolutely right. These definitely are positives and a good start, even if she is doing both for selfish reasons - namely she is too scared and guilt-ridden to pull the trigger. But I'll take them. And maybe, just maybe, these will be a platform for wanting to work on the MR and at least try with me. I have to admit, I am not seeing any attempt on her part to make more effort with me since she decided this was the route she wanted to take, which to me is more evidence this was just a way to take the pressure off for now and not actually to do anything with it. For example, she's still acting like she has moved on, doing her own thing and not sharing quite major things with me that she is working on - like applying for new jobs, something which she happily told our friends over a drink last night, but hadn't told me herself. Like she's making a point of excluding me from things in her life. And when I said to her should I cancel our next mediation appointment since we are seeking to try to work on our MR, her precise words in response were "Yep, ok". Nothing more nothing less. Like she was resigned to this situation but not really convinced.
Anyway, I think we're all in agreement - she's reluctantly taking this route, and I'm going with it for now and we'll see how it plays out. Under the guise of a business meeting, I'm going to take one night / morning out our of the vacation to go to see my own IC (who is not far from where we are staying) to help prep for our MC on Monday. I feel that we both need a break from each other as well, as it is quite intense staying in a small cabin together and the two of us back sharing a bedroom.
I'll keep you posted, and thanks as always for your continued guidance and support. It feels good to have you there with me, and helps me get through the rough days that admittedly do seem to be getting less and less numerous.
My thoughts are don't hijack her in MC with the burner phone.
Frankly I would spend the time in MC listening and just restating your boundaries
And lighten up, it's just sleeping in the same bed. Find some slightly funny flirty stuff to say. Feather touch to you face, no sour puss.
V
So, quick update. We're back from vacation. All passed without incident mostly. Sleeping in the same bed was fine. No drama. No humour either, but it was just sleeping as V says.
I threw myself into having fun with the kids, had a fair amount of alcohol with our friends, exercised every day (running biking, walking) and generally took advantage of being away to get some time to rest and reflect. The interaction with my W continues to be false, strained, humorless on her part. She seems to making herself more distant from me every day - and as we were heading home even started to show the same tendencies in the way she spoke and treated me as before BD - short with me, nothing I can do is right, not looking me in the eye, no smiling. I just keep level and normal when she does that, but to me this is all just as before BD - her mood dictated by the fact that she no longer wants to be with me.
Since we've been home, just back to her old ways. Secretive, moody, straight on her burner phone to check her whatsapps (presumably from the OM..). She clearly does not want to make any effort with me, and if she is going to be like this, I don't see the point in the MC we have planned for Monday morning. We are just delaying the inevitable, and life is too short. I'm getting to the point where I'm feeling ambivalent about her completely - love is waning fast, respect for her going completely, and given her relationship with the OM (whether it's over or not), I'm not even sure if I want her back - never mind whether I can ever regain the trust she has smashed to pieces with a sledgehammer.
So question - should I raise this with her today and see where her head really is at, asking her if she really wants to do MC? Because her actions are speaking way louder than her words at this point, and it takes two to R.
I think you'll probably say 'no - see the MC and have the convo with a third party present' - and I get that. And that I should be more patient. I know. Just not sure if there's much point the way she is acting.
Thoughts appreciated today. We'll have less of an opportunity to discuss tomorrow as the kids are around.
Give one MC session a go first. See what happens.
But this is where you have power 40! You get to choose. The vets here always say it's usually the LBS that ends up moving forward with the D.
Hi 40! It seems you are in a better place now from when you started posting, good for you. You are in charge of your life, feeling stronger and confident. Then why not facing the facts? Your W lost respect for you and you are loosing for her now. That has some logic. I would wait for monday MC but it is just my opinion.
Glad you are where you are now 40. Keep it going!
Neffer - thanks so much for the pep talk and confidence boost. We all need that sometimes, no matter how up or down we are feeling - really appreciated. You're right - I am in a much better place, and feel much more in control - of me, rather than her, but that's a good start.
And I know that you and Steve both suggested waiting for the MC session, but actually, the way the day panned out on Saturday, it was just becoming untenable. She went out for a while, came back then locked herself away in her room without a word. It was ridiculous. And so obvious that she was just nowhere near in a mindset to work on our relationship. I went to find her. Knocked on her door and then opened it slightly without waiting - the door was barricaded shut with a suitcase that was in there. Says it all really.
I said "this is just ridiculous. let's talk". We did. She opened up and said everything that we all expected her to say. She'd made a snap decision about working on the relationship last week. As soon as she said it she felt trapped again. She knows she was a coward, but she doesn't feel any differently about needing space and not wanting to be with me. I validated, said I also couldn't continue as we were, and we agreed there and then that we would go back to the original plan to tell the kids and move forward with mediation etc. Both of us felt this was the right way forward. And the tension lifted immediately. We even started to work together on financial stuff relating to the mediation during the afternoon. It was like chalk and cheese. Maybe I got played a little, but to be honest, it was never going to end any other way, and so I was at peace pretty quickly with where we got to.
So yesterday, we told the kids. We actually had to wait all day to do it, as every time we were about to get the three of them in a room, one of them had some arrangement going on or a friend over. It took until 6pm, and by that time, I think they knew something bad was cooking, they just weren't sure what.
My W and I had the whole thing scripted and choreographed - and I offered to lead and say the critical words. I wanted to be in control. It was the most awful experience of my life. Awful. The kids were in total shock.When it came to it, I managed to get through the first sentence, before the three of them just completely lost it. My two boys (aged 17 and 15) who don't like to show their emotions were sobbing, couldn't look at us and wouldn't speak. My daughter (aged 12) was inconsolable, although she was amazing and managed to ask a whole bunch of very sensible questions about why, what, where etc.. We were quite text book about the messaging - its not their fault, they mustn't worry about taking sides, they must try to talk to us and ask questions etc. It was traumatic but we got through it, and later once every one had calmed down and they were processing the information, I think there was definitely a sense of relief that we'd got it out of the way and the kids came back to us for cuddles etc. I even reached out and hugged my W when we were alone as I could see she was upset - she hugged back, just briefly. This was the first physical contact between us in 3 months. It was nice, even if only in friendship and nothing else.
I'd be really interested to hear from any of you who have had similar experiences with teenage children and how you helped them through this - particular the boys who don't like to speak or open up, even one-to-one. For sure they will come to us over the next couple of days and ask things, but for now, we are letting them be.
My W and I actually went to the MC this morning anyway, even though the purpose of the session changed. It was helpful in that I heard my W say she felt so guilty as she knew this was all her doing, and that she was just being so cold towards me over the last couple of weeks, and so, as I also told my D12, this was a way to make sure we could all be happy in the future. She also said she wanted this to be amicable, and for us to stay close, and we aired our concerns about managing tensions if/when they arise during mediation. It was a healthy exchange. We may or may not go back to MC during the process, but I think what is clear is that we have re-opened communications between ourselves now that the tension has lifted.
And I can see that now the awful experience with the kids is over, and we just continue to monitor their well-being, my W is a completely different person. Like a weight has been lifted. She's smiling, chatty, sharing things, initiating conversations. She had been out this afternoon to register her name with some real estate brokers, which we discussed she would do. But then when we were alone this evening, she came over with a big smile on her face and whispered with excitement that she'd actually been in to see a property already. Like this was the best thing that has happened to her in years. She went to get the details of the house, talked me through her notes and thoughts, and wanted to get my views. Like I'm now no longer the husband, the adversary - I'm the close friend who she wants to share news with. I played along, gave her my opinion, and was helpful. It was a very surreal experience, particularly when just 2 days earlier she was locked in her room desperately trying to stay away from me.
I get it that she now has what she wants - and this makes her happy. I just don't think she gets that whilst I'm going along with all of this because I was miserable the other way, I am just not where she is at. She has hurt me beyond anything anyone has ever done before. She has treated me like sh*t for the last 4 months - she's in, she's out, she's in, she's out. Yet now everything is rosy, and we can be friends....she can't see that's a big leap for me. I do still love her, and helping her move out is not easy for me. But I do want to stay close to her, I'm happy she wants to share things with me - it will help our relationship going forward, and will be good for the kids to see. But it still sticks in my throat that she has suddenly flicked a switch and is now a rejuvinated sleeping beauty bouncing around the house, rather than the Wicked Witch of the West, with her broomstick constantly swatting me away.. (or some other/better analogy!).
I guess that's what WAW's are like - when they get what they want, they are nice again....
So anyway, I'm ignoring all that. Will help her where I can. Focus on making sure the kids are ok. Continue to detach (funnily enough, for some reason, I now care very little about whether or not the OM is on the scene - although I don't think he is), and I'm planning lots of GAL as I start to share the news with my close friends. Should be a fun period... kind of.
The next chapter in 40's rollercoaster journey is about to start. Although 'limbo' can be an LBS's friend, it actually feels good to be out of it today. I can see light at the end of a long tunnel, and am in good shape to work my way towards it. Thanks to all the guidance from you all. I feel in a good place, even if it's not the place I was originally hoping for.
.
OK.
You handled it well.
However, you are her H, you don't want to be her friend. So the best stance is to be friendly but not a friend.
WAW we can not be friends as I am your H, we can co parent but that's it.
V
Thanks V. Appreciate your feedback and means a lot that you think I handled it well. Always difficult to know, and you just tend to react in the moment and hope what you are doing/saying is the right thing.
You are right though - I'm being friendly and helpful, partly because of my NGS - it's what I do.. - and partly because I am consciously thinking I want to get on with my W in front of the kids, having just told them we are not arguing and are getting along fine. But you are right - there is a fine line, and at the right time I will state my boundary, which you put very succinctly and clearly above.
Today it has been more of the same. Her being upbeat, chatty, behaving like this is the best thing since sliced bread. I continue to go along with this, for the kids sake, but it is hard to behave like this is what I want too, when it so isn't.
We are starting to have to manage telling friends about what is happening too, and I'm finding this very difficult. The party line is that we have grown apart, that this is a mutual decision, and if anyone asks, there was no third party involved, and for those friends who know us well, this makes absolutely no sense. They are just confused, as they'd never have put us down as a couple that had grown apart and mutually agreed to separate. And I can see the look of disbelief of their faces, as I say with a straight face that we both thought this was best for all of us. But it can't be said any other way if we don't want the kids to learn the truth (which I really don't... at least not yet). So hard, but we just have to get through this next phase where people are inquisitive, gossip and want to know more. Eventually they'll move on, we'll just go our separate ways and things will get better. I hope.
In the meantime, detach, GAL, 180 etc. I suppose I never know if, at the end of all of this, my WAW will have a change of heart. I think it very unlikely, given how delighted she is with the current status quo, but hey, if she does, she does, if she doesn't I will be fine anyway. I really do believe that.
The truth is always better than a lie. Your kids are all old enough to handle it. You pretending just to appease her and save her face is some BS in my opinion.
I hear you Hongaku, but I genuinely think it's unnecessary to give the kids such details. The point is, we are done. They are going to have D'ed parents who will get along and make things as easy as possible for them all, and the fact that the reason for this situation is that their mother is a cheating, lying, b*tch isn't something that is going to help anyone. Maybe me for a very short time, but other that, I feel it's just not worth it, and I need to be the bigger person. And eventually, when the fog lifts and my WAW thinks hard about what she has done and how I have behaved with dignity, maybe she will show some remorse and respect for me. That's all I want. We are done and moving on, so hurting her through the kids really helps noone.
Is it better to:
A) Tell WAS to shove it, their loss, selfish lowlife failed their family.
B) Let them walk all over you, they feel great when they leave with your approval.
C) Do nothing.
Thanks David. I see where you are going. Of course I'm tempted by (A). I would like nothing more. I say that to her in my head all the time.
But (B) isn't really what's happening. She actually had the temporary feeling that everything was great yesterday, and yes, I did facilitate that, but reality is very much sinking in today. The kids are of course now starting to struggle, each of them differently. D12, whilst originally putting on a brave face and asking good questions, is now confiding in my W that she wants us to stay together and she can't sleep. I came home last night from some GAL (having just told a friend what is going on), and found W and D12 snuggled in D12's bed to help her sleep. S17 has reacted with belligerence and anger, and S15 doesn't want to talk at all and takes himself to his room whenever possible. W is seeing this and it is hitting home hard. She caused this. She is the one that drove us to this place - not me. I supported her decision, but it wasn't what I wanted. She can see the destruction she has caused and it is killing her. The euphoria of house hunting yesterday has gone. For now. I'll let that sink in for her.
So in fact (A) is happening without me having to do/say anything. I know it's not me vocalizing these things, but she is feeling them away.
I still don't feel I want to tell our friends the full story. It hurts, but I think it's the best way for me and my kids at the moment. Perhaps not textbook, DB-style or even fair, but it's just how I feel. I am so focused on the kids and their well-being that nothing else matters at the moment. How I feel will come into play as things settle down.
My little kids cried their eyes out pleading with all of their hearts with W to give me a chance. W promised them she would... that night in bed I was thinking to myself that I was so so thankful... and then I overheard her the next day on the phone saying to her parents "That's the plan, that's still the plan". W left days later.
I still don't feel I want to tell our friends the full story. It hurts, but I think it's the best way for me and my kids at the moment. Perhaps not textbook, DB-style or even fair, but it's just how I feel. I am so focused on the kids and their well-being that nothing else matters at the moment. How I feel will come into play as things settle down.
I highly recommend NOT telling others about your situation. Especially anybody that is close to your wife. You see how difficult it is for your W to decide what she wants. If everyone that knows you guys (and trust me, word travels FAST) knows she is an adultress it might mean that is too much for her to overcome and come back to the MR. It may force her into a cut and run mentality so that she doesn't have to face all of these people again.
40 I'll have to catch up but why did you guys tell the kids? Was it her idea or yours? Kids at your ages have so much on their plate, I would have avoided this until it was no longer avoidable. (Maybe it was unavoidable, like I said, I am behind on your sitch.)
Ok 40, I caught up.
Wow, that was quite a turnaround. From her wanting to work on things to you guys telling the kids you are done. Likely that was where she was having her hangup, knowing that was going to be difficult. I struggle with how to handle all of that. On one hand you want to keep it between you and W, keep it to the script as you and her laid out, and not burdne the kids with details. On the other hand, making it to easy on her results in exactly what you are seeing. W is let off the hook, doesn't have to face her actions or the face consequences for it.
However, if your ultimate goal is still R, then taking the first tact (which you did) is probably the best approach.
40, is your W's A still ongoing? If so, people are not dumb. Once she is on her own and in the arms of OM, people will put 2 and 2 together.
I still agree with your approach on friends. No need to out her as and adultress right now. That will keep the chances of R open. The truth will come out in time if R never occurs.
40, a bit of hope. My W early in our sitch was like your W. She was very excited to be looking at apartments. Discussed logistics about furniture with me. "You were going to get new family room furniture anyway, so I figured I could take the furniture in there for my apartment." She also threw herself into finding jobs, though even that showed WW fantasy fog as she was convinced she'd find a work from home job that completely supported her. But I just validated her feelings in all of this. As reality started to set in her excitement waned. She asked me how much utilities were. She asked me how much we budgeted for this category or that category. She started to realize that work from home job weren't paying nearly enough for her to be self-sufficient. The idea of having to get up early every day and drive into an office (and as an introvert, interact with coworkers in person) started bringing her back to earth. I saw the wind go out of her sails. And she did go into a bit of a depression for a few weeks as she felt "stuck" and "trapped".
That is where my positive changes came into play. As she started to see staying less "stuck" and "trapped" and more of the brightest potential for a happy future. That took some time (thought it was quicker than most people see it occur), but she eventually embraced that bright future as one she wanted and wanted to work towards.
Your W has a lot of "reality" to come to grips with yet. So there are still a lot of opportunities to wake up and reconsider. I am not trying to give false hope, but I am trying to show you that you should still have some hope of R. I know it feels so far away with telling the kids and her seeming excitement at looking for a house, but I do not think this is the end yet.
Hi 40. My son was 11 when I did all the stupid thigs that I did. Then I left...
I was going to be free and live hapily ever after with OW and her son...I was going to be happy...
Fortunately I could reverse my course. So here I am...
Your W must find her own answers. You canīt control what she wants, does or dreams. But she must face reality.
You say you both are done. Are you?
Detach, GAL and let her go. She must feel the loss of what she had/has. Donīt be her friend now. She must respect you. She hasnīt.
Be strong, you can do it.
Neffer - I think you are right. I need to be friendly but not her friend.
Aside from the guilt she is clearly experiencing regarding the kids (not about me and my feelings though), she does need to face the reality of all the other things she'll have to do on her own. I'm trying to be strong, I really am, but reality is hitting hard for me too, and in my quiet moments, when I'm on my own with my thoughts, I do have meltdowns and the tears flow. I guess that's only natural and healthy to let it out, but it shows I'm still in a lot of pain - not just because of what's happening with the kids, but because of what her leaving means to me and about me, personally - how it means she no longer loves me, and she'd rather cause all this pain and suffering than spend any more time with me. It hurts. It does. But I do pick myself, I am trying to move on, GAL, detach etc. It's just at the moment, it's all in my face the whole time - she walking around proud as punch, the kids in pain, she's house-hunting, I'm working on getting a larger mortgage to keep our house and buy her out... planning for mediation..I don't know whether I'm coming or going.
You say you both are done. Are you?
I think she is. Completely. The way she is carrying on. I said I was because being with her behaving as she was towards me was just untenable. It had to stop. Had to. I was miserable, and so was she. At least this way there is hope for us both. And if she does get her freedom and it's not all that its cracked up to be, maybe she'll come back. But I really don't think so, and I'm not holding on to any hope at all. OK, maybe a tiny bit, but that will fade with every day that goes by I think. I will let her go. I will. It makes me so sad, but I will let her go.
I'm trying to be strong for my kids. They need to see I'm ok. We're ok. So they'll be ok. And we will be. It's just going to take time.
Thatīs the attitude man!
(((40)))
Steve - thanks so much for yet another comprehensive reply. I don't know where you find the time, and I see you posting in lots of other threads too. You must have such an understanding W...
I think you're right - if there's any hope of R (which I don't think there is, but anyway...), then omitting the information regarding her A is critical, but it's more about the kids in my mind. As much as she deserves no good grace from me, it doesn't mean I should belittle her in the eyes of my children. She is still their mother, and although clearly a terrible role model (once they find out the truth), she is actually a very good mother. Very good. She dotes on the three of them, with a (metaphorical) firm hand when needed, and they are for the most part lucky to have her. I don't want to change that, or how they see her just out of spite. I'm better than that, even if she isn't.
40, is your W's A still ongoing? If so, people are not dumb. Once she is on her own and in the arms of OM, people will put 2 and 2 together.
She says not. And I think not. Just from what I observe of her behaviour. Doesn't mean she won't go back to him, either when she finally leaves the house or before, but for now, no. The truth is going to come out at some point anyway - maybe not for a while, but it will come out.
I appreciate the anecdote from your sitch, and your perspective that this might not be over just yet, even though it feels like it. I'm minded to have some belief in that perspective, as you have been somewhat of an inspiration given the outcome of your sitch. From reading your thread (I'm now fully up to date), I take the positives from what you have achieved through hard work (which is amazing btw). I will keep on DB'ing through all of this, and if by some miracle there is a change of heart on her side, so be it, but if not, I'll still be a better man for it. I'm already a better man tbh. The changes I've instigated, the work on my NGS issues, the improvement in my level of fitness and physique - all for the good.
I do feel positive about the future at times - once I get over my wobbles - and I know I'll be ok eventually. Just taking one day at a time, and focusing on the kids welfare for now. Then we'll see.
It's been a little while since my last update, so I thought I'd jot down a few words to keep you all in the loop. Also helps to get these things written down - cathartic.
Let's see..
Our sitch has definitely changed from one of me thinking all the time about me and her, will we won't we etc, to one where we are just in a process of separating, with no feelings involved at all. Kids are generally getting used to the idea of my W and I separating, helped by the fact that we continue to all live together and everything looks normal to them, for now. D12 was having some trouble sleeping, so she sometimes comes in with me, or my W sleeps in her room, but last night she slept on her own so progress there.
Both boys continue not to discuss the situation at all. No questions. No comments. They have I think mentioned it to their friends, so at least they are saying something, but with us, they just say they are ok, and act like normal teenagers, so I guess that's something.
For some reason that I can't yet work out, my W had some kind of meltdown over the weekend. Back to shutting herself away in the her room, avoiding all contact with me where possible, not looking me in the eye when speaking and generally acting like a 2 year old. On Sunday, she just kept away from all of us all day. The kids were obviously aware, and I had to tell them that whatever the issue was, it was for sure nothing they had done, and we should let mum just work through things herself. She's had these episodes before over the years so the kids know to let her be. She is not wired right in my mind - but that's for her to sort out. She has defrosted a little bit since then, but still avoiding any contact or conversation with me where possible.
I had asked her last week if I could take S17 and D12 away on vacation for a week next week - my sister and family are all out in Cape Cod and suggested we join them, just to give the kids a break and get me out of the house. My W said yes, and S15 is away next week with a friend and his parents anyway, so my W would also get her space, which we know she likes (and probably time with the OM.. if that's still going on). The thing is, S17 gets results from public exams in the middle of next week, and having said yes to the holiday previously, my W has now mentioned to him that actually she is not happy he is away with me when they get published, as she will miss out on celebrations if he does well. This is something he and I discussed before although actually from the other side (what if he did badly and needed to be at home to discuss with teachers), and he seemed to think it would be fine, as did I. She also knew this was the case when I asked her if I could take them away - perhaps she didn't realise when she said yes. Anyway, she has not mentioned this to me at all, so I am ignoring it until she does. If she has a problem, she can ask me like an adult does, rather than sending messages through the children. This could well be the cause of the meltdown over the weekend, but seems petty to me, so can't be the sole reason.
I also noted over the weekend that she had hidden a picture of her and me behind pictures of the kids so it was no longer clearly visible. She'd done this before and I'd moved it back, but this time I decided enough is enough and I removed it completely. I also took away completely another photo of the two of us that is in the MBR. She will have noticed both are now gone - maybe that also contributed to the meltdown? I just don't know.
Oh, and she is starting to take the kids around houses that are for sale to get their view, and buy-in to the whole process. They seem on board with helping her, and she is clearly 'excited' by the prospect of house-hunting, spurred on by the fact that she is clearly continuing to feel claustraphobic / trapped in our house with me around (how dare I continue to live happily in my own house...!), even if she won't talk to me to tell me so. Let's hope she finds somewhere soon and she can organize to move out quickly.
We have our next mediation session planned for 23 Aug, and I've been preparing for that with my L. Just want this to be over quickly now. It's very sad - we had this whole period of our life together, with great memories, but now I only see this stranger in my house who is interacting with my kids and co-parenting with me. I have detached completely as I feel absolutely nothing for her - nothing. I don't even care about the OM. Can that happen so quickly? I did feel compassion and understanding, and wanted to be helpful to/for her, but that's all gone. Almost overnight. Is that normal? I just feel like I want to move on and for this new limbo period to end as quickly as possible.
Since we told the kids, I have told a number of my friends and some of my family ('it was mutual, we have grown apart' etc), and all have been really supportive, inviting me and the kids out and generally trying to be there for us. I've been out a few times with them, and my GAL is certainly stepping up now its involving others. Before, I'd say it was more me exercising and playing sports than socialising, so this is a good change I think.
I really do need to vacation next week though. Just to get away. Get out of the house and away from being constantly reminded of her. I am hoping when we come back, the time apart will mean my W and I getting along better (or rather her frostiness having dissipated), but we'll have to see. I also have some work travel at the end of the month, so both combined should help ease whatever tension has been created (and however it has been created).
I think that's all for now. Sufficed to say, I guess I'm still DB'ing but genuinely have zero expectation or desire for the effect of this to turn my W around. She and I really are done - sad to say or write, but actually quite cathartic. Perhaps she was right all along - we needed to break up, but she just went about it the wrong way. A coward's way that was the most hurtful and least respectful, and I'll never forget that. Thoughts welcome as usual.
Hi 40, Iīm glad detaching is working. Keep doing that. GAL and try to relax and enjoy with your children next week. I would get some IC for your children, imho. Be there for them, theyīll need you; be the lighthouse.
Stay strong man.
She and I really are done - sad to say or write, but actually quite cathartic.
As long as you both have breath in your bodies there is always a chance of R. Look at those that have for years been D'd and then reconnect. It can happen.
D is part of the process, it isn't the end.