Read the Divorce Remedy. LOVED it! Am applying the GAL and doing my best to just let things lay right now. A little background. We've been together 21 years this year, married for 17 1/2. 2 kids 14 and 11. I am presently on Spring Break with just my kids as my wife declined to come due to both health issues and our relationship issues. It's been a rough couple of years. She has had chronic health issues for a decade that have debilitated her life and a VERY chronic issue that has affected her for the last 7 months. She is NOT the person she once was. She IS an amazing and can be loving person. Our real rough couple of years came with a business failure (no fault of ours, just happened) causing bankruptcy, foreclosure, etc. I fought hard during that time to just keep my family together. I held on too tight, pushed, pressured (everything Michelle says NOT to do), and my wife was in a different place. Her reaction to our catastrophe was to curl up in a ball and shut out the world (including me). So when I pushed, she just pulled farther away. I believe financially we are on the mend, things are better, career is ok, and we have worked with several counselors, books, CD's, etc. throughout our marriage as we always knew it was a journey and not just perfection all the time. Well, she finally "gave up" and said she is done. She filed for divorce in February of this year. We spoke, it was traumatic, and she agreed to withdraw the petition at that time. She is not intent on working on our marriage, just agreed it was the wrong time. We are still living in the same house, sleeping in the same bed, watching tv together, but no intimacy or conversations other than the kids and trivial stuff (oh, and money of course). I am an emotional person when it comes to my family and my wife. We have been through so much together I truly cannot imagine us parting ways. Her father sexually, physically and emotionally abused her as a child, then left their family. She kind of went off the rails and we met when she was an adult. FLEW on air for the first 6-7 years. Kids, surgeries and then the big financial issue along with the regular problems of marriage (NOT that kids are a problem, they are amazing!, but they do change a relationship.
I don't think there is another person involved other than people she has found on health boards that are now her "friends". I believe they are feeding her some bad information about what life will be like without me. I wish I could tell you I am a bad person and she should run, but I am just not. I'm a good father, a good provider and I do my best to be a good husband. I am definitely not perfect and more than that have done EVERYTHING Michelle said not to do.
My wife is going through(I believe) a combination of WAW and an MLC. I think if I can wait it out, it may work out. Outside of her jumping into a new relationship, there is no assets for us to split, no way for her to support herself, and I believe VERY restricted on being able to move the kids around over the next couple of years. It is not all about money, but the quality of life will drastically change for her (and hence my children for part of the time).
HELP! I am lost, am doing my best to follow the book. I need to accept (within reason) whatever her decisions are and not let them bother me. I only want to find a path to get my family back.
GREAT week with my kids, and don't know how my wife is going to react. I am hopeful that she has taken the time to reflect how this will really be in the future, that outside of despising me at the moment, that she misses me just a little. Worried about going home tomorrow and how it will be. Trying to prepare myself for the worst. I know that either way, the Big D or reconciliation will be a long road.
the 180's are hard.
Any advice, help or 2.4's are welcome.
M51
W44
D14
S11
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htmYou may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH. Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
WOW, so posted once and now my head is spinning.
WAW going through MLC as we were gone this week (kids and I) has been going through it. She even let it slip she called her lawyer again. Don't know if she is going to file again or not.
Don't know if I should just say something like "thank you for giving me the time with our kids, I know you needed a break, we wish you would have came, but I hope you enjoyed your time". Nothing major, but not sure if that sounds too desperate or not. I know the filing part is crazy hard, not the end, but a very big part. HELP! What am I supposed to do. If I didn't love my wife this would be way easy. She still takes my breath away, I love her dearly and I love my family.
I suggest you say nothing!
Step back and keep giving her space.
Thank you for the quick response! I do have to discuss a couple of financial issues being the first of the month and all. I will keep it brief, to the point and avoid the emotional stuff.
Just keep POSTING and one other bit of advice from Wonka
that I totally agree with.
Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.
It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.
We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.
Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.
Thank you and I will and have been doing this. Only log on from my phone and work computer and the book is at work as well.
Had a phone call that was supposed to be quick that turned inot an hour talk. My fault, I took the bait. I MUST do better at the letting go, letting her figure her stuff out and only focusing on what is really happening, picking my battles , not assuming or imagining and even when it is obvious to remain in control. This is a marathon that I believe if done correctly we all win in the end!
Got home last night. Kids and I were exhausted. Pleasant enough between my wife and I,but just cordial.
We are supposed to talk finances this week so that will be fun!
Working on myself and concentrating on getting back to who I am. IF she changes and wants to reengage we will approach that subject.
Appreciate the support.
I join Cadet in welcoming you where nobody really wants to be. We are a supportive bunch. Although, weekends can show less activity.
I encourage you not to react to your W's words or actions. As you said, you can be emotional, and this type of situation doesn't help. Remaining calm is crucial at this time. She may often say things that she doesn't carry through.
If I had to guess, I'll bet you tend to be the more talkative spouse. Am I right? If so, put duct tape over your mouth, if necessary, to make your mouth be still.
. You don't want to overkill with words.
I am definitely not perfect and more than that have done EVERYTHING Michelle said not to do.
Well, you should fit in perfectly with this board! Seriously, the best starting place is to stop doing every thing Michele says not to do. Tall order, but if you'll turn lose of your fear......you can do it.
You will discover we use several four letter words on the board,
like...."Fear"........"Time"......"Don't"........just to name a few.
Are you referring to the 37 rules? That's what people tell me, that they are hard. What are some 180 degrees you have made recently?
HELP! I am lost, am doing my best to follow the book. I need to accept (within reason) whatever her decisions are and not let them bother me. I only want to find a path to get my family back.
Sometimes we have to accept things, but it doesn't mean it doesn't bother us. We just have to figure out how to go forward with life, in spite of it. Eventually, we learn to live with what was handed to us. We can make the most of what we have, or we can give up and decide to be miserable for the rest of our remaining time on earth.
Did she receive therapy for the abuse she suffered as a child? She may very well be experiencing a MLC, I don't know.
BTW, is your W taking a lot of medication for her health issues? Is she a SAHM?
Anyway, I hope you'll post often and tell us what you can. Be sure to read all the links on Cadet's page. There are a lot of people here who are in very similar situations.
So, you need to stop that. Completely.
First, unless it's braces, new shoes, or bad grades, stop discussing your children. If there is an issue that requires the two of you, then address it as efficiently as you can. Do not take it to a point where you let her think that you use your children as a pretense to talk to her.
Second, stop watching TV with her. Find something else to do. She clearly has a comfortable routine with you and it does not sound like she realizes that this routine is valuable in and of itself. She needs some time to find out if her new friends will really fill all the empty space if you are not there. And they well might. But you deserve to learn this sooner rather than later.
Spend more time with your kids, take up a hobby. You need to learn to be happy. I know it's hard. I'm in the same boat. But you need to stop offering your time and attention to someone who does not want to receive either.
When you come home, don't tell her that you missed her. "We're home" will do. If she does something like make you guys dinner, thank her and tell her that it is wonderful. Do the dishes. And then go read a book. In another room. If she acts like she didn't know that you were gone, then smile, say that it's good to be home (but NOT that you missed HER specifically), and still go read a book. In another room.
Third, stop fearing the silence. I am not saying that you should give your wife the silent treatment. But I am saying that "I'm home!" "Could you pass the salt" and "have a good time" is polite enough. If she says nothing, then you say nothing. Unless it is something pressing that you have to discuss with her about your kids, let her initiate the conversations and don't fill the empty space with small talk.
Sandi
Again, appreciate the reach out and support. Yes I am the talkative spouse. Type A. Entrepreneur, leader, etc. She is smart, intelligent but the health issues have debilitated her for a decade. Weird part is that she is so strong willed that she perseveres. She is a SAHM. I believe this is a huge part. The major medications over the last years, the "what have I done with my life", etc.
Lately, she's thrown in a few zingers from nowhere. She brought up an conversation that happened 4 weeks after we started dating ( yes 21 years ago) saying I was always doing things this way. Presently she only focuses on any and every negative part of our marriage and life. There may be an EA (bit may just be friends she is reaching outnto) but don't believe there is a PA at the moment due to her major current health issue. She has chronic debilitating issues, but the most current one that has gone on for 8 months is literally an intestinal/bowel problem. She is angry, exhausted and very unhappy. She doesn't leave our home except to run the kids, errands and Dr appts. She can't drive at night and alcohol makes her sick.
She is searching other spiritual avenues. She has always been that way. One of the things I love about her. But, she has not worked outside the home in 15 years. She went to school in 08 graduated and that is when she broke her neck and had her first spinal surgery.
A little more on us. As the medical issues came on, I picked up the slack and eventually took on all the financial responsibilities. Just happened as she was recovering from one to the next for a few years.
Not a perfect marriage, but we did have fun.
Financial crisis hit in 2015 causing a bankruptcy and foreclosure and then rebuilding. We have actually made it theough. I was very angry during th is time and was only trying to hold onto my family. I gripped, pushed, pulled way too tight. She curled in a corner and didn't want to be around anyone.
My belief on the MLC is just that she wants to run away, start over, and be happy. I'm the only constant for 21 years, so I MUST be the problem.
I also believe she is delusional on how the working world works and how her lifestyle will change drastically. Unless she jumps into another relationship that will help her financially, she will find it very difficult.
She is gorgeous, would not have any issue attracting anyone. Whether they would want to long term support someone with 2 kids, the health issues and no ability to work is another issue entirely.
She expects and believes that since we have been together so long that she can pick and choose what parts of marriage see wants. I should support her, but leave her alone, unless she needs something. Again, a little far fetched in the thinking and I believe this is coming from some of her friends she is speaking with.
Weird thing is we still sleep in the same bed, watch TV together and if she can we eat family dinners together (health issues are again the reason here.
Working on the GAL.
Working out everyday
Just took the kids away for a week, wife stayed home. Thought it was good for all of us and to give her a small taste of being without the kids . And me.
180s I've done are
Stopped snooping
Stopped asking questions
More later
Thank you for your thoughts.
Isn't best to stop watching TV and the routine together? I LIVE for this time presently. That and waking up with her holding my arm in the morning are the ONLY things that give me hope. Is it giving her a sense of security? Is she just trying to have it both ways as she moves through her process and builds her new life?
So hard to find the right path and the right thing to do.
Oh, I know you do! I used to as well. It hurts to break this comfortable routine because it is so safe and because it feels like you have a piece of your old life back. But ask yourself, do you really have it back or are you scavenging for crumbs? Getting a life means not being your WAS's placeholder until someone more exciting calls.
Watch TV without her. Take yourself to the movies. Buy an audio book and go for a scenic ride. You need to learn about all the things you like doing alone and realize that your own company is enough. Then you need to learn to have a good time with people who are not your wife: your children, your family, old friends, co-workers. Heck, go out and make new friends. Try meetup.com. You can find groups of people who go out and do things together based on joint interests.
The point is that you need to live and you need to stop gifting your life to your WAS.
JS,
You have to change your entire mindset my friend. Your name alone Just Sad reeks of desperation. Your entire life revolves watching TV with her and holding her arm in the morning? Come on man you say in your post you’re a leader. Leaders are typically strong and confident and right now you are not displaying those characteristics. How can we change that? You excercise, eat right, get out with friends, take guitar lessons. You get to a fuching place where your life is gonna be great whether your W is a part of it or not.
We are here to help but you have to do the work!
Appreciate being put in my place. Exactly what I need. I will push forward, continue to go dark and GAL better.
Desperate...absolutely. working on this everyday. I know we can have lives separately and I need to realize and start working in this direction.
Did my own thing with the kids today, although it was around the house. Worked out, and am making a nice dinner for the kids. WAW doesn't eat meals due to the med condition. Just broth and jello presently for her.
Growing the spine back more and more everyday! Glad the board is here as it helps just to vent and get positive feedback from people who have no dog in the fight other than to help.
JS,
That’s what we’re here for to push to try to get a little stronger each day. This $hit ain’t easy but I promise things will get better and you will be happy again if you put the work in.
Stay strong my friend!
So VERY weird dinner this evening.
As I've stated. Wife can't each much due to intestinal/medical issues. I made a nice prime rib dinner for me and the kids. Wife actually joined us and ate some prime rib and potatoes! CRAZY. We enjoyed dinner mostly focusing on the kids. I cleaned up, went upstairs, did a few chores and read a little. One of my kids came up and we watched a show together.
This morning, up and back to school schedule so very easy as I'm the morning person and it takes my wife a long time to get rolling along.
One day, sometimes one moment at a time. I am keeping the long term goal in mind.
Isn't best to stop watching TV and the routine together? I LIVE for this time presently. That and waking up with her holding my arm in the morning are the ONLY things that give me hope. Is it giving her a sense of security? Is she just trying to have it both ways as she moves through her process and builds her new life?
Being able to go home and let down your hair and just be yourself is what we all want and need. If it will help you, think of this period as temporary........not a life sentence. Here's what I have observed in many LBH's. These scenarios, as you described above, is really for
him. It's not really his W that needs it, but him. It gives
him a sense security, of being loved and accepted. The thought of giving up so little seems too much to bear.
Currently, she is in survival mode and getting her sense of security from her online friends. She may, or may not, see you as a necessary & practical means in her life. You supply financial sources, take care of the physical work around the house, transport everyone (including her), etc. If her current frame of mind continues, more illogical thinking and actions will come.
It is critical that you stay mentally/emotional/physical balanced. I'm sure you have a lot of responsibility on your shoulders. Some things have to be done, in order to keep a home running. I don't know her physical limitations, but if there is anything she is capable of doing......let her do it. Make sure there are clean clothes and food in the house. If you can afford to have someone come in once a week to clean, it would probably be worth it.
We push eating healthy, sleeping enough, exercising a lot, and GAL.........b/c it is what keeps you going, and you can't afford to shut down. If you aren't sleeping, try some over the counter sleeping aids, and if they aren't sufficient, go to your doctor. If you can't eat.....take that vitimen that has A - zinc. I will testify to it giving an appetite! (lol). Many LBS's are not interested in GAL, and don't even know how to start b/c their world has become so small. Their emotional self just wants to hang close to home. You must take time away and find something interesting you like to do. You can take the children and do things with them, too. Just don't rely completely on them to be your total world. You need to expand it. ((hugs))
As I said, if it helps to think of this as being a temporary situation, then okay.......just realize that in some cases, MLC can go on for a long time. If she does something unusual......or weird, so what? She's in crisis, so she's going to act weird. You may have to schedule around her, IDK, but try not to base your entire life upon her at the moment. Otherwise, it controls you. Do you know what I'm saying? I don't want to appear as if I'm telling you to be cold and unsympathetic to her disabilities. I'm saying you need to do what is necessary to save yourself first, by following these suggestions.
Find spiritual food for your soul. This is as important as physical food. Find a source of inspiration. Listen to upbeat music and motivational tapes. Watch funny shows with your kids. Avoid sources that will negatively affect your moods, like sad movies and music. If people around are pessimist, maybe you need to be around someone else ........if that's possible. You may not be able to control what's happening to your W, but you can seek balance in yourself by being proactive in these few areas.
Without sharing too much, I know what it's like to live with a disabled person in the home. I understand the confinement, stress, and draining affect it can have on a family.....and a spouse. I know the gloom & doom atmosphere that can exsit within the house. I know what it's like to be a caregiver. I know if the caregiver doesn't have some moments to restore themselves (mentally, spiritually, physically) on a frequent bases, they won't last long. So, please take care of you.
((hugs))
I love this board!
Very nervous today as we are just getting back into the routine of everyday life not knowing what is going to happen.
Good news is that the DR book and this board is totally changing the way I am looking at things. Since our financial crisis in 2015, my ONLY concern was keeping my family together. I have been carrying that as a burden and weight for just over 3 years now. I let it affect every aspect of my life. Professional, personal, friendships, kids, wife, etc. I know now that even though it was instinct, that it was very wrong. I freely admit my part in this issue by doing all of the things Michelle describes as wrong in the DR book. I've begged, pleaded, tried to rekindle, bought gifts, ALL of the things that only pushed my wife further and further away.
Knowing that I have no control over her choices makes things so much better. Doesn't mean I like it, just good to realize that if I try to force, the opposite will happen. The constant worrying, obsessing, etc. over how I believe my wife is going to rip apart our family was (and is) excruciating. This is not a guilt play on her, just the way I feel.
I am going to pick up a couple of books this week to read as well and keep working out.
You asked on the health issues. I am unsure how to truly answer this as sometimes they are very confusing to me as well. I've seen the xrays, CT scans, mri's etc. and I see the issues and speak with her doctors as well. She applied for SSI disability 3 years ago. Was denied for her final appeal a few weeks ago (she just told me this last week so a little shocked that she held that back). No idea on what she will do for income and I know her lifestyle will drastically change unless she jumps right into a new relationship (again fairly certain there is no PA going on due to the medical issues) and unsure how long term that would work for her.
Presently, I feel she is a little delusional as she said that she expects me to pay all of the bills because we are still married but has zero intention of retaining a relationship.
She is reaching out to her mom and dad (father abandoned family when she was 12 and mother checked out pretty much and sent my wife to a special school for awhile). Dad was a mental/physical/sexual abuser of her and Mom allowed it to happen and then when Dad left, my wife rebelled and her Mom just sent her away. They are now her "lifeline" and will be her financial support (for a short time anyway as I've known them both and they will not do it for long). Wife wasn't speaking to either of them when we got married and now has a decent relationship with both of them, even though they still have the very serious unresolved issues.
Wife had a crazy teenage experience and experimented with a lot of stuff, moved around a lot, and was definitely self medicating and rebelling against what happened to her. We met and were immediately inseparable. Now, she says that I was the worst thing that ever happened. That she "sacrificed" her life to be with me. Funny how the mind can make you believe whatever you want. We are not perfect, but when we were good, we were awesome. We have been through a lot and I agree that most wouldn't even have made it this far.
So. Why all of this? I am unsure as to where she really is in her own mind. She is on her phone and ipad all day (boards, friends, etc.) or watching TV (ghost/spiritual shows, vampire shows, supernatural stuff (both reality and regular tv), so I think she is starting to believe that some of that is real. She got 2 small tattoos while the kids and I were gone. One is an arrow which she said meant "you must go backward to move forward) and another was 2 small arrowhead types on her finger which means "create your own reality". I figured she would do something like this as a rebellious thing. Lashing out like a kid, etc. I said "it looks great" and moved on. Didn't take the bait. I don't know how long it will take her to realize that life WILL change drastically and for better or worse, having the kids half the time will take a toll on her and change her life as well.
Working on this everyday!
Thanks again DB Board!!!!
Don't beat yourself up. You have had a heavy burden.
My adult D was disabled. It was so obvious to everyone but SSI. It took a lawyer and appearing before a board......and then, she only received partial, but a little beats nothing. I hope your heart won't become hardened when looking out there and seeing people who appear to be much healthier than your W, and they are getting financial assistance. I struggled not to become very angry at the system. I've known of people lying and getting that check in the mail, and it really hurts when you see your loved one not receiving the help they obviously need. Anyway, moving along........
Knowing that I have no control over her choices makes things so much better.
Neither are you
responsible for her choices. As long as she has free will to choose, she is responsible for her decisions.
Doesn't mean I like it, just good to realize that if I try to force, the opposite will happen. The constant worrying, obsessing, etc. over how I believe my wife is going to rip apart our family was (and is) excruciating. This is not a guilt play on her, just the way I feel.
I'm glad you are sharing your feelings, b/c
they are just as important as her feelings are to her. And you know what? I think you may learn through DBing, how to implement some principles toward any future rebellious teenagers or young adult children. I hope you don't have to deal with it, but if you do.......you'll be a pro.
Presently, I feel she is a little delusional as she said that she expects me to pay all of the bills because we are still married but has zero intention of retaining a relationship.
I'm sure she is not being very logical. Not that it helps, but it is very common in the sitches we see on the board. There was a recent story of a W who wanted a D, but expected the H to continue living with her......and to keep it a secret from family and friends!
I said "it looks great" and moved on. Didn't take the bait. I don't know how long it will take her to realize that life WILL change drastically and for better or worse, having the kids half the time will take a toll on her and change her life as well.
Perfect!
Weird day.
Couldn't sleep. Got up at 130am. Worked out a little and didn't help to get back to sleep. Very much on my head today, back and forth, obsessing... got out of that as quickly as I could, but did take most of the morning. Wife called later as my D14 was being a teenager. Let her vent, solved the issue and moved on. Daughter wants to do some summer activities that are fairly expensive. If wife is wanting out, this will be very difficult to do financially as we separate. Waiting and letting wife let daughter know that she probably can't do it since we can't afford it. Being supportive but letting the 2x4 hot her a little.
Got 3 miles in after work. Haven't been earing much, but resigned to eat better and healthier. Feeling better and cleaner.
So day isn't over, but started in my head, made it through and worked on myself.
All in all, not too bad. One day at a time...
I'd recommend taking some sleeping aids. Nothing major - I'm talking something like NyQuil PM. You have to stop thinking about this and obsessing. Maybe do a major house cleaning Friday night and see if that helps you sleep in Saturday morning.
Part of letting go is not letting these things hurt you. I barely slept last week, so, I get where you're coming from. But you have to try. Otherwise, in spite of your best intentions, you will not be able to think or act rationally.
Just looking for advice and guidance.
How do I handle this situation:
Daughter wants to sign up for a new activity. We have been pushing her to become more involved in school. The activity she has finally chosen will cost my wife and I $1000 just for the summer. Kind of put it to my wife that SHE needs to tell our daughter that she can't do this since the impact of us not being able to do this is due to her decision (totally financial). Am i wrong in letting my wife feel the ramifications of her decisions come to roost in this way? I can't make it easy for her and handle everything and I still believe my wife is delusional about how her lifestyle is going to change drastically (and unfortunately my children as well) with regard to her decision.
I don't want to be a jerk, not trying to put it on her as her total responsibility, but trying to get her to realize how this will truly affect everyone.
Am I right or wrong or somewhere in between?
Kind of put it to my wife that SHE needs to tell our daughter that she can't do this since the impact of us not being able to do this is due to her decision (totally financial).
Is it her fault? From your first post:
Our real rough couple of years came with a business failure (no fault of ours, just happened) causing bankruptcy, foreclosure, etc. I fought hard during that time to just keep my family together. I held on too tight, pushed, pressured (everything Michelle says NOT to do), and my wife was in a different place. Her reaction to our catastrophe was to curl up in a ball and shut out the world (including me). So when I pushed, she just pulled farther away.
So your financial woes are due to a business failure, which you state was not the fault of either of you. So why do you want to lay this at her feet now? You sure you're not just trying to punish her because she wants out of the M? "Keep the way home paved and smooth." Read that phrase and tell me what you think you should do to abide by that.
Am i wrong in letting my wife feel the ramifications of her decisions come to roost in this way? I can't make it easy for her and handle everything and I still believe my wife is delusional about how her lifestyle is going to change drastically (and unfortunately my children as well) with regard to her decision.
First if you isolate her and blame her she will interpret that as you being an ass, and it will just reinforce in her mind that leaving you is the right thing to do. Second, she knows things are going to change drastically and it scares her. She is not happy and joyful inside, she is confused and in turmoil. She wants to blame you for all of this. QUIT GIVING HER AMMO TO BLAME YOU. Step back. Give her time and space. ALWAYS respect her even when she doesn't respect you. Conduct yourself with DIGNITY.
Am I right or wrong or somewhere in between?
Read what I wrote above and tell me if you think you're right or wrong. And if you think you're wrong, then describe what you think a better approach would be.
AnotherStander.
I appreciate the input and you weighing in.
First let me say I am not putting our financial collapse in her lap. That was 3 years ago. We have made it through and are on the upswing. My point is that I do not believe she has truly realized how damaging a divorce is to everyone on the financial side. Regardless of how we settle even if split in half, supporting 2 homes reduces everyone's standard of living drastically. I want to do what I have always done, which is to step in, handle the problem and solve it to take care of my family.
I am not trying to be mean or cruel although I'm positive that she will view whatever/however I act presently as bad. I am giving her time and space. I am just trying not to be a doormat, to GAL and ultimate goal of my wife realizing that our marriage is worth it, we come together and move forward!
I am re-reading DR and truly trying to get this. I don't know how to do this correctly and am grateful to those who post and reach out to help. This is life changing no matter how it goes.
I will strive every moment to conduct myself with dignity and honor my wife.
Read your post again.
Thank you.
JS - When my W moved out we sat down and agreed on financial terms and a specific amount of money I would give her each month and what bills each of us would pay. During that time she came to me on several occasions asking if I could give her some additional assistance.
I will admit it really made me mad and I had the same feelings you did about not being a doormat, etc. It is hard to balance it all early on. The financial side of things is rarely discussed on the board and it can be difficult to navigate.
Looking back I have no regrets will giving my W assistance. She wanted to move out and I was not going to hold her back from doing so due to financial ramifications. Yes D changes everything financially but if it's going to happen it's going to happen and like AS indicated by not working with her IMO it will hurt you in the long run.
I will be Divorced in 1 week but I do believe that I did nothing wrong in assisting her and it had no impact on my W moving forward and still initiating the D paperwork. I do believe though that because of my actions I helped our D be an amicable one, one in which we both looked out for each others best interests, a D that will cost us only $1000 and a D that has allowed our children to thrive and be happy.
I don't know how it would have turned out if I had tried to hold money over her head and have supported her through the process.
How you conduct yourself when your back is against the wall and your about to lose everything you have ever known is the true sign of a man with character.
Best of luck!!
My point is that I do not believe she has truly realized how damaging a divorce is to everyone on the financial side.
When women decide to leave their marriage it's a huge decision. It completely wrecks them emotionally. They don't -want- to leave, but they feel like the M has gotten so bad, that their H is so out-of-contact with their needs, that it's their last resort to find some semblance of happiness and they have no choice. They know they're setting themselves up for financial hardship, and it scares them. So yes, she realizes how damaging a divorce is. She certainly doesn't want or need you reminding her. Now let's go back and look at your original statement again:
Kind of put it to my wife that SHE needs to tell our daughter that she can't do this since the impact of us not being able to do this is due to her decision (totally financial).
You need to understand she wants out of the M because in her eyes YOU have been a terrible husband. In her eyes you've neglected her physical and emotional needs. You haven't supported her through her illnesses. You've forced her to take this terrible step. In other words, it's all YOUR fault. And now you want to tell her that it's all HER fault and you wash your hands of the whole thing and want to leave her to the mess that "she's made". So how do you think that looks to her? Do you think she'll say to herself "wow he is the spouse only a fool would leave, this is a man of dignity and honor" or is she going to think "yeah isn't that typical, he just wants to blame me and make me do the hard work he doesn't want to."
So drop your desire to show her the hardships she's about to go through. THAT WILL NOT BRING HER BACK. How do you bring her back? Become the spouse only a fool would leave. What would the ultimate husband and father do in this case? In my opinion, he would find a way to pay for that class, not look for excuses not to pay for it to teach his wife a lesson.
Joseph,
So yes, presently the financial side is very difficult for me to navigate. I want to be sure that my family is provided for and all of the bills are paid, etc. I have asked my wife for a few months now to give me an idea of what she wants, what she expects, etc. I've shown her our budget, the bills, etc. When it comes down to it, there is not much left right now. We made it through the Financial crisis and are now back on our feet, but more like back to the starting line or a little ahead of that, but nothing like we were. I will get there. She decided to after she made her decision to open a separate account, filed, then withdrew the petition. When she did that, I moved my check to a separate account as well just to make sure that our monthly bills are taken care of. I have always been the one that pays all of the bills. We still have a joint account, although admittedly there is not much in there as again at the end of the month, there is not much left.
She got some help from her parents when she filed to retain an attorney so I have no idea if they are helping her at all. She is a sahm and has for the last decade had major health issues that she applied for ssi disability (was denied on 3rd appeal in February). NOW, she is getting her resume together and going to find a job. I fully support her doing this as I have always been supportive of her getting her own life outside of the home to enrich her own self-esteem, self-worth, etc. Well...example the week so far. Monday, bad health day. Tuesday, she had decent energy, but the pain made her stay home. Yesterday, she was exhausted, it takes her 2 hours on her heating pad in the morning to work up to taking the kids to school (a 15 minute drive each way). Then she had another bad spell. I got home at 530 after work, got my workout clothes on and went out for a run. Got back 45 min later and she was asleep on our bed for another hour.
How does she believe she is just going to jump out into the workforce and be able to do this with all the issues she is dealing with? As I said, I'm fully supportive of her. I have paid for her schooling for a few professions through the years. She is smart, engaging, intelligent, fun and would be an overall great person to be a part of any organization. BUT , we have the health issues. I'm looking practically at the situation. I pick up and run with whatever needs to be done when the health issues become too much, but how is she going to handle this when we actually separate?
A 40 hr a week job, the kids running from activity to activity, taking care of a home, and dealing with the health issues (most are debilitating and will have to be dealt with for the rest of her life). I don't want her to "settle" and think that she is "stuck" with no way out. In fact, I think that is the way she feels right now and the full impact hit her awhile ago as to her life, what she has done, expectations, etc. The MLC hit and now add in the WAW issue. I know she has a choice. I can't make it for her. This morning I got up, made her coffee (as I have for 21 years and I don't drink coffee), made the kids lunch, gave the kids a hug and gave her a kiss on the cheek and told her to have a good day. This morning, she actually kiss my cheek as well. Not reading anything into that at all.
So here is what I'm thinking:
1. Presently there is not enough monthly income to "split" and adequately provide housing for the 2 households. There is definitely arguable positions on both sides as to what an equitable split would look like.
2. We are locked into a current least until the first part of 2019 so we can't reduce any of those expenses.
3. I don't know if I should push the financial stuff, or let her approach me. Again, I make sure the bills are all paid, groceries are in the fridge, etc.
IF (and unfortunately there isn't) any family here where we lived, I would suggest that she or I go stay there for a little while. I have suggested that she go to one of her parents for a little while and she flatly refused as she said she would not leave her children. I can't leave because I can't afford another place and I have to make sure I work everyday to pay our bills.
Kind of pushed in a corner, love and respect her fully and her examining her life and what she wants to do. Also, just making sure that we, as a family, are taken care of. There is nothing untoward in my behavior, so I appreciate all of your comments and look forward to more. Again, this is a slippery and sloppy ride that I don't want to be on so any thoughts and guidance is appreciated. I don't want to make the same mistakes (or new ones) that I did at first which only resulted in pushing her away. I want to be sure that within reason I am there for her every step of the way. We will always be in each other's live in some way for the rest of our lives.
How does she believe she is just going to jump out into the workforce and be able to do this with all the issues she is dealing with?
Unfortunately that is her situation to figure out but I would say this. Assume you are D what would change financially for the both of you? What would you have to do to make it happen financially? What would you have to sell?
When my W told me she wanted to move out we both had to make financial sacrifices to make it happen. For example, we had a $900 a month car payment on one of our vehicles. I sold it and got something cheaper for $650/mth. I was putting in roughly 15% each paycheck into my 401k. I had to reduce that to zero.
My point is that if you get a D then you will be forced to make it happen. My philosophy when my W approached me to move out was to set her free and if you want to go let's sit down and find out how we can make that happen. I wasn't going to hang finances over her head.
I am not advocating that you push her in either direction but if your D was going to be final tomorrow so how you would figure out a way to make it work.
We have been pushing her to become more involved in school. The activity she has finally chosen will cost my wife and I $1000 just for the summer.
In hindsight, you probably can see how a select group of affordable activities should have been presented to your D.
Perhaps I've missed something, but if your W did not influence D to choose this expensive activity and neither of you gave the child financial guidelines........I don't think it would be fair for you to dump this on your W to tell D the expenses can't be covered.
If your W had shut you completely out of this entire situation, then yes, she would be the one to address the D. However, since both of you "push" your D to choose.......you should approach your D as a team.
Her and I have VASTLY different viewpoints on how this will work. She believes I should foot the fill for the rest of my life for almost any and all expenses for her lifestyle. We have lived well, I know there will be responsibilities on my part and I am fully willing to take the "hit" on what I need to. I really don't need much, my vehicle is a lease, after the financial crisis tried to keep my payment as low as possible so it is only 285/mo. My issue is the main parts of what she is thinking and the reality of it coming to her. I am very sad knowing that I will miss parts of my children's lives, this is a reality should it come to the full D.
Wife also believes that even after we D that if I make it back to where we were, that she is entitled to that as well. I see it as we were in this together, and if you decide to leave, that ends your benefit (pending what the agreement would end up looking like) and if I move on, move up, whatever that she is not a part of that.
Am I just wrong in that viewpoint or is she?
I'm in it and always have been for the long term. If she's all in, I'm good. If she's out, she's out. Kind of how a marriage works I think. Never perfect, but knowing each other is there is part of the package.
If our D was final tomorrow, I feel it would take a judge, a bunch of attorneys being paid a bunch of money and a lot of animosity (unfortunately). I mentioned that attorneys cost a ton (she now knows this based on her paying one to file and withdraw so I believe that is a good thing as the realization as to how much it might really cost her is in front of her). I also mentioned that I would rather make the agreement worthwhile, not pay attorneys and spread the money out to help her transition to her new life instead of fighting about it. She felt insulted by that. I thought it was a very good gesture on my part. Rather use the money for "us" than give it to an attorney and save the animosity right? Anyway, presently the math just doesn't work. I wish it could to get her out and away from the situation for just a little while so she could ponder, contemplate and do what is right for her.
I am not going to push either way unless I see anything to alarm me financially. I am giving her her time and space. I am not bothering her about her whereabouts (she doesn't go anywhere really). She is totally free to come and go as she pleases throughout the day while I am at work and the kids are at school. She has zero restrictions other than her health as to what she can/can't do. We were supposed to sit down and discuss boundaries early this week along with the financial stuff as this is what she wanted to do. But as of today, this has not happened.
Again, very difficult, but letting her have her space. Focusing on me and the kids, and still making sure that she is ok and if there is anything I can do for her.
Thanks again!
*She is not the girl you married. She no longer feels the same and won't act the same.
*No matter what her values and spiritual beliefs have been in the past, and regardless of the high standard of morals she held, they have temporarily vanished. For how, nobody knows.
*She does not want to be fixed. Nobody can fix her, especially you.
*She is in complete rebellion, and will defy you when you make demands, threats or give ultimatums.
*Her heart has turned cold and selfish. All she thinks about is what makes her feel good at the moment.
*You cannot change her mind, influence, convince, or sway her by talk.
*Her brain has lost all capacity to use logic. Therefore, you cannot reason with her.
*She is addicted to the high she gets from the A. She will do most anything to get her "fix" again.
*She cannot be trusted as long as she is wayward, and until she goes through the complete withdrawal stage from OM/A.
*She will cake eat whenever it suits her......if you allow it.
*She wants the best part of the M and the A. She gets the H for security and OM for her emotional needs.
*She will bait her H, and test him.
*She will give him just enough crumbs to keep him hanging on and attached.
*She keeps the M/H as her plan B, in case A/OM doesn't work out.
*She will be interested in H if he detaches, acts as if he is busy, happy, moving on without her, and won't give her the details when she starts asking.
*Pursuit from her H only pushes her further away.
*She is living in a fantasy world. She wants the dream to continue.
*She will blame her H for every thing wrong in her life. His apology does not erase her resentment. She will totally rewrite their marital history. She holds on to her anger toward him b/c it fuels her negative view of the M and justifies her present actions.
* Her common sense is gone and she only operates from her emotions.
*She is willing to risk everything and throw everything away for her addiction when the A is at its thickest.
*She sees her H as the enemy.
*She has to suffer some type of loss (due to her decisions) in order to shake her from her fantasy fog.
* She is on a roller coaster and will not act the same every single day. Her emotions will be up, down, and all over the place....but never on an even keel.
Sandi2,
I just read this and loved it!
So on point!
I don't know how to do the framing thing that you guys do so I apologize.
Thanks again DB Board!
If you want my 2 cents, you should sit your daughter down and talk to her about the fact that money will be tight and that you and her mom will not be able to afford things that you once could.
After you have that conversation, I'd suggest you do one of two things:
1. If you CAN afford to pay for this, then just do - it's not the child's fault that her mom is leaving.
2. If you cannot, go drive for Ubber until you can come up with the money.
So.. update..
We haven't told our children yet that we are separating.
Wife hasn't pushed this, nor have I (as I would love for her to realize the value of our marriage). Since starting the DB parts, things have relaxed a little around the house. There is no intimacy or even friendship between my wife and I at this point, but there is also no fighting, arguing, pressure, etc. We still share the same room, the same bed, have family dinners at home, etc. To me a little weird for someone so determined at this point to leave. It has only been a short time since my switch so I am certain it is going to take a significantly more amount of time and some investigation/introspection on my wife's side for her to think about her situation and the direction she truly wants to proceed. I am doing my best doing the 180's, to not be baited into a fight, to use Sandi's 37 rules, to give her the space she needs and not intrude. To be there when she needs me, but not hang on every word or try to continue the conversation beyond its initial part.
daughter and son show signs of this affecting them from when we were at each other's throats, so I am determined to get this back on track. In fact, my wife and I had a discussion with our daughter last evening regarding her grades and we pulled together quite nicely with a united front.
ALWAYS worried about the weekends, this one in particular as the weather will be horrible today and Sunday meaning we are all kind of stuck in the house together. Maybe I will suggest a movie with my kids or a board game, with my wife if she so chooses. Hoping to get the kids out for a hike tomorrow and maybe lunch. My wife is always welcome, but not pressured, to join.
Still having my moments of obsessing, but they are becoming fewer and farther between and when they happen, they are becoming easier to recognize and then control.
Not much else as yesterday outside of the Daughter discussion, nothing much happened. I don't know if that is a success or failure yet, but I am viewing it as success since if we aren't fighting, she has her space to contemplate what path she truly wants to take.
At present with the job I have, doing an uber would be counter productive as I have the kids activities in the evening and weekends and with my wife's health there are many times she is unable to pitch in and get them where they need to be. Plus I already put in 50-60/week already. This will definitely have to scale down if the Big D happens and my income will drop in that case as well just due to the custody and care of our children.
Thanks again DB board! Any and all thoughts, comments and suggestions are welcome.
You cannot control what your W thinks. You cannot afford to submit to her guilting you. And, she
will guilt.......especially when it comes to finances. She is not being realistic, so that means you are the only rationally thinking adult. Don't get caught up in her drama.
Wife also believes that even after we D that if I make it back to where we were, that she is entitled to that as well. I see it as we were in this together, and if you decide to leave, that ends your benefit (pending what the agreement would end up looking like) and if I move on, move up, whatever that she is not a part of that.
Speak to a D lawyer about your concerns. Don't
guess at how things will be. Get the legal facts.
How are you doing with GAL? Any plans to do something fun this weekend?
Thanks Sandi!
I want to give her her space within reason and not "pull" the carpet out financially while making sure all our bills are paid. I will not get caught up in the drama. Thank you for your suggestion on discussing with an attorney. I need to hope and work for the best and prepare for the worst.
As far as the weekend, kind of said above, our weather is going to be poor today and Sunday so hoping to get out with the kids tomorrow.
Looking forward to one day looking forward to a weekend again when this settles down (and yes, I am realistic knowing this will be one way or the other).
Touching back on the financial part. I have taken care of everything pretty much since we got together. She has no clue what it takes to financially run a budget. No idea on utilities, cable, cell bill, car insurance, registrations, pretty much everything! This is why she is totally in the dark, delusional, and kind of just out of it when it comes to this. I, on the other hand, am not delusional. Regardless of our prenup and that I may have to argue for full primary custody (with VERY liberal visitation of course) for our children due to her health issues, I realize that there will be some parts that I will have to give in the end.
Pretty much an open book, so if you would like more info, please ask...
Again, I appreciate the input GREATLY!!! It helps me get through each and every day.
Touching back on the financial part. I have taken care of everything pretty much since we got together. She has no clue what it takes to financially run a budget. No idea on utilities, cable, cell bill, car insurance, registrations, pretty much everything! This is why she is totally in the dark, delusional, and kind of just out of it when it comes to this.
Almost all WWs are like this. Mine thought she was going to get a job, get an apartment, I'd keep the house (since my D loves our house and property), and we'd get a cheap, quickie divorce. Completely delusional and much in the same boat as your wife.
Over the last 3 1/2 months I and other things have burst her delusion bubble. She realized to make it she would need a real, 9-5 job (she has a degree but that would cut into her leisure time). She realized that 2 bedroom apartments in our area were not cheap (~$1300-2000/month). I told her I would be selling the house and giving her half of the equity (she was not happy about this as she knows it would be more churn on our D, on top of her parents Ding). And then I contacted a lawyer, which burst her $400, online D plan (which couldn't apply to us anyway since we have a child).
All of that took her from 100% moving towards D (I want out attitude), to 50/50 about 2 months in. Now she is 80% sure she wants to stay. From what I understand that last 10-20% will be difficult for her since in her mind it is "giving up the dream".
Steve
You hit the nail on the head!!!!
Outside of the health stuff, that is exactly how my wife is except her bubble hasn't burst yet. I even think (just based on the way she is talking to our D) that she believes she is going to be able to go and work a full time job. With debilitating chronic illness how is that going to be possible? I hope you and your wife work it out totally and she can come that extra 10-20% more and totally commit to you guys moving forward.
I do agree about the comment on the 10-20% part though is that they feel they are in some way settling, giving up, or whatever they may feel by staying. I don't want her to feel that way at all.
A LONG road ahead my friend...
Best wishes to you over the weekend and thanks again. I get a lot of strength from this board.
I do agree about the comment on the 10-20% part though is that they feel they are in some way settling, giving up, or whatever they may feel by staying. I don't want her to feel that way at all.
You don't want to be with someone who doesn't want to be with you. If you value yourself you wouldn't want that anyway.
Set them free, let them make their own choices. You want them to return because of the love they have for you not because they didn't want to get a job, or because they couldn't make it on their own or because they didn't get to live the same lifestyle.
If you allow this to happen you will continue to be in an unsatisfying MR and you will be miserable.
Work on getting stronger in all aspects of your life (spiritually, physically, emotionally) and if you do your W returning won't be as important as it once was.
When I first joined the board I literally spent hours a day reading through sitch after sitch trying to learn as much as I could. I came across this quote from like 10 years ago that really stuck with me.
"Those that work the hardest to save their MR have the least success"
I hope it helps.
Good luck!
Post Weekend update...
Weekend went off very "normally". No confrontations or issues, kind of casual. Weather was bad Friday so stayed home. Kept busy around the house, worked out, etc. Saturday, one of my kids were sick so we didn't go anywhere. Wife and daughter headed out shopping in the afternoon. I took the opportunity to clean a little and again, workout to keep busy.
On Sunday, my wife brought up that we were supposed to discuss boundaries and financial issues. I said sure, whenever you would like. She gave me and my son a haircut, I went for a walk, took a shower and we sat down and began our discussion.
Interestingly enough, she had no clue on what boundaries she wanted. She stated that she just felt that we were getting into too comfortable of a routine and if we were separating and moving towards a divorce, that she thought that was unwise. Asked why she felt that way, and she responded that "if we keep acting like everything is calm, not fighting, comfortable with each other and all of that, that she would start leaning back in and she doesn't want to do that". Acknowledged her feelings and asked what I could do to respect her decision and her wishes. These are all that she asked for:
1. To call her by her name instead of affectionate names like baby, sweetheart, etc.
2. To stop giving her a peck on the cheek when I leave and when I get home from work.
That was pretty much it.
3. To respect the other's privacy when they were in the shower, etc.
Asked what else she would like, and she had no clue. We discussed the moving to separate bedrooms. She said she is comfortable with us sleeping in the same bed and at present that was fine with her. I agreed on that point.
She did acknowledge and comment that she loved the progress I was making, that I looked better, acted better and seemed more like my old self as of late. Unfortunately she added she was still waiting for the other shoe to drop and me get angry (Not going to happen any more) and that she felt it was too little too late. Again, I acknowledged and commented that I was just working on me. That I was over my anger from the past issues (our financial crisis), and that regardless of how her and I ended up, that I needed to be who I am and be happy.
Then came the financial discussion. I have been asking her for a number, what she wants, etc. I asked, she said "I don't know". Asked again and she said that it really didn't matter since she couldn't move out anyway. Again, our financial situation is that there is really no spare money out there. She mentioned that I felt she is going to fail on her own. I believe it is going to be VERY difficult for her, but I refrained from that and told her truly how I felt. That she will be fine. She will find a way. She is smart and intelligent person and always resourceful in how she approached life. I do believe this with the reservation that she has not worked in 15 years, has zero practiced skills, and very debilitating health issues. We discussed some of her professional job options and how difficult it is going to be for either of us to work and manage our kids lives at the same time. Her point is "people do it all the time". YES, they do. I've seen it. My sisters all went through it. Regardless if the other parent is involved or not it changed your life drastically. She mentioned that she felt she could probably manage a job 18-20 hours a week. Doing what? Making what? How can you survive on a part time job? (said these to myself and was very supportive to her). We did not argue or anything else. We discussed our budget and how things are just way too tight. Since she filed (and then withdrew) in February, she established her own bank account. When she filed, I moved my paycheck (just for protection) over to a separate account as well. She mentioned that she didn't like that (I'm sure), and I just said that I needed to make sure that the rent and all the other bills were paid. I showed her my paychecks so she knows I am truthful with what I am saying to her (of course we both have trust issues with each other at this time). Again, I asked for her to give me a number so we can start discussing IF amicable divorce was possible. I believe that when she filed in February and withdrew that her attorney charged her a bunch of money, so when we were discussing that if we have to go the attorney route, pretty much all of our assets were going to be utilized and the earth between us would be scorched. Spoke a little about positive attitudes and moving forward and how the attorney route is just going to prolong it for a year or two, cost us everything financially again, and just put us both into a HUGE bad place all over again. We kind of left it where she is going to think of a number and we are going to revisit in a couple of weeks. In the meantime, I will make sure the bills are paid.
Finished the conversation by writing down our agreed upon boundaries, which were pretty much nothing.
1. No pet names
2. No pecks on the cheek
3. Respect when the other is changing or in the shower in our bedroom.
4. No dating or other relationship (physical or otherwise) while we are still married.
5. No one over to our home while we are still married.
She and I have no issues with any of these.
After the convo I went to the grocery for supplies for the week. Over the next couple of hours we just had a few comments to one another. When I spoke to her quickly in response to something, it just as a matter of affection and habit that it was followed with "sure sweetheart" or "yea baby", etc. She actually laughed at this and thought it was funny. I apologized, said I wanted to respect her desire and I did hear her. Later last evening she said that she just wanted to scratch that one off the list.
Interesting to me. Just looking for some feedback on where to go. We did have during our conversation, a brief reflection on our future and how I would happily work things out, but realize her decision, respect it and am working on my (and our kid's) future. It seems like things are working, but it is definitely going to take some MAJOR time, life reflection and I'm thinking a couple of realizations in life.
So what do you think I should do now?
Besides keep working on myself, GAL, staying a little dark (hard to go totally dark when we have kids and are in the same house) and giving her the space she needs right now, what else should I be doing?
I still believe that my wife is a little on the unsure side with the financial part. She doesn't know the cost of things and believes that I should still be responsible for her pretty much forever.
In our conversation she stated "I sacrificed to stay at home with the kids for 15 years". I simply pointed out to her that definitely was not our plan. In 2009 she went back and graduated from Esthetician school and was headed back to work when her first major health issue arrived. I didn't blame her at all, just pointed out that the intention from all of our perspectives was that she was headed back to work 8 years ago. No one could have seen her health issues and we (I) paid for her school gladly so she could go and do what she wanted to do and be productive, independent and fun. We went through health hell, financial hell that caused relationship/marriage hell for a LONG time. Pointed out how I KNOW she can make it again, that I will be ok as well, and that if at present at any time she decided to work and refocus on our marriage, that at present I am willing to do that. Let that go very quickly and almost regretted saying it. (go ahead and give me some bad comments on that one!)
Later that evening she seemed a little more upbeat that usual. Asked about her mood change, and she stated that even though our talk was stressful, that she felt good about it and that we were able to communicate.
Got up this morning, go ready to work, headed out and didn't peck her on the cheek, told her by her name to have a good day and left.
VERY new into this (about a month and was gone for a week) so she is very hesitant on this being the "real" me.
So again my question:
Besides doing what I am already doing is there anything else I need to do other than just sitting back and letting her have her space and contemplate?
Thanks again. Weird to actually have a conversation (not an argument) with my wife. I am not reading anything into it (don't believe anything they say and half of what they do thing).
Looking forward to hearing and thanks again for being there.
We did have during our conversation, a brief reflection on our future and how I would happily work things out, but realize her decision, respect it and am working on my (and our kid's) future.
JS,
Be very careful of implying that you would happily work things out or saying things like "I will always be there for you". For this to turn around she has to fear she might lose you.
Understand?
Will do!
Thanks LH. She does need to realize that it is a real thing.
Definitely a roller coaster ride!!!!
I am definitely learning that I am and must remain the stable one throughout this process (however it goes). Wife had a hard day yesterday healthwise. Spent most of her day on the couch with a migraine. I guess it subsided later or she just toughed it out when the kids came home from school as she was up doing some household stuff when I got home. It was a bit cloudy and windy outside so I went and got ready for my evening jog. I had bought some new workout pants and shirt last week and hadn't had a chance to wear them yet. Didn't tell anyone. Came out of my room and went to get my shoes on. My daughter commented on the new outfit and said it looked good. My wife actually looked over and said "you look cute". Wow. didn't react, but she actually noticed me. Went out did my run and came back. Decent dinner, but then my wife kind of went off on my daughter for something (teenagers) and then wife seemed just very angry for the rest of the evening. I didn't pry, didn't ask, just let her stew and went on.
Don't know what she is thinking. I still don't think she truly knows what she is thinking. So just giving it time. Working on myself and seeing what this week will bring.
Boring I know, but stay tuned for the next update.
Re-reading DR this week and updating myself to make sure I am on track. Planning on getting out this week at least one early evening. Have a lunch planned with a colleague for business.
What are your goals in this in-house separation?
My goals are to work on myself. Focus on not obsessing about my wife, what she is doing, and letting her have her space. Hoping to have her realize that we, both individually and as a couple, have had a horrendous few years, we took it out on each other just because we didn't know how to deal with it. And hoping that eventually she will realize that "giving up" is not the answer, that she truly still loves me and our marriage and chooses to begin the long journey for us to work together as a couple and also individually for ourselves.
At present, her goals are to have the in house separation as she is putting together her idea (of which she says she has none yet) of how she is going to work, support herself and make her life without me. Again, I'm giving her the space so she can do this. I believe although she has mourned, thought hard and made her choice that she still hasn't had the true consequences of divorce and how it works click in her mind.
I don't know if this makes sense, if I'm totally off base, so suggestions on how to move forward and what and what not to do is greatly appreciated!
My goals are to work on myself.
Okay, so break this down ^^^^^^^. What do you need to improve about yourself? Can you tell us exactly what areas need improvement, and the steps you'll take?
Hoping to have her realize that we, both individually and as a couple, have had a horrendous few years, we took it out on each other just because we didn't know how to deal with it. And hoping that eventually she will realize that "giving up" is not the answer, that she truly still loves me and our marriage and chooses to begin the long journey for us to work together as a couple and also individually for ourselves.
Let's back up, b/c you've stopped talking about actual goal setting, and you've gone over into what you want her to think. You can't make goals for another person. You have no control in what they think.
At present, her goals are to have the in house separation as she is putting together her idea (of which she says she has none yet) of how she is going to work, support herself and make her life without me. Again, I'm giving her the space so she can do this. I believe although she has mourned, thought hard and made her choice that she still hasn't had the true consequences of divorce and how it works click in her mind.
Not to sound rude, but I don't care about "her" goals. I want to know about
your goals.
It's not good enough to just say you are going to focus on improving yourself. You have to seriously evaluate yourself and determine the areas that need work. Then you decide on the practical steps to get you there.
For example, if I said I need to focus on being healthier..........I would decide what all that included. I would decide on a healthy diet. I would plan my menus. I would choose an exercise program and set a schedule to allow myself the time for my workout. I would get a support system. I could go on, but you see what I mean.
In order to stop obsessing about your W, you've got to start thinking about yourself. I really am not in favor of in-house separations, but if this is what you've chosen........I will try to support you.
One point I want to make about this plan of separation is that the two of you have different agendas. She did not choose this arrangement as a plan to work on the MR. In-house S is the epitome of cake eating for a WW. Therefore, she will probably be in no hurry to finalize the D, unless she gets a better offer from another man. She can come & go and do as she pleases, without accountability. She has all the financial support and practical security she needs. The M could exsit in this type of arrangement for years.
You, on the other hand, are hoping against all hope that your WW will change her mind. You are hoping you will become good enough for her to want you again. So while she lives however she chooses (considering her health limitations), you will keep the home fires going.........praying that some day she'll get her eyes opened.
.
Anyway, think about those goals and share them, okay?
((hugs))
Dear Sandi,
So here is an expansion on my personal goals.
Getting healthier.
Working out (lost 15 lbs. so far and if I might say so looking fairly good as I was not overweight but now at 6' 175lbs. ). I am using the working out part also as therapy to deal with the issues that are both real and imagined in my mind. Instead of self medicating (never did that to extreme, but for a few months a drink here or there was easier to escape). So if I am anxious or anxiety arises, get my running shoes and get out and burn it out.
Eating healthier. Better diet everyday. Not perfect, but I feel much cleaner due to this with both energy and just self-esteem.
Working on just being positive within myself. I admittedly looked at the world very negatively when we lost everything. Prior to that, I was one of the most positive and optimistic people you would meet. Changing my overall worldview not to exactly what it was, but to where I want to be.
Concentrating on my future professionally. Current job is going well even through all of this. Some days it is very hard to concentrate and be productive when your focus is on your marriage/family falling apart. I am conciously (other than reading or posting on this board) making sure I am focused more on improving both my current career and researching how I am going to add another company or 2 to the pipeline. This is for me, my kids and our future. This is NOT a way to "bribe" my wife back into our M.
Working way more on GAL. I am finding this difficult in a few ways. My kids need me there so there is that. We are very challenged presently on the discretionary income (hence the in house separation) so it is quite difficult to justify "going out". Definitely working on it and this challenge. Looking for better ways that don't cost anything or are more affordable.
Since I mentioned the in house separation, I agree with you wholeheartedly that this could come to a HUGE attempt to cake eat and drag it out. Although she could, and may, at present she does not do anything social or go out due to her medical issues. If we could afford it, I would welcome it as I believe it would give her the opportunity to come up with how differently the world works. I know it may be awesome and better for her, and if that happens, let her go and be happy.
Any suggestions how to deal with this better would be great. I think she is going to start looking for a job so I think that is going to be a big eye opener as well.
Again, more focusing on myself, the goals I mentioned above and how I can just feel better about myself. IF this causes any change in her, then so be it. If it doesn't, then I have accomplished feeling better, cleaner, healthier and am just a better me.
My wife actually looked over and said "you look cute". Wow. didn't react, but she actually noticed me.
My W has probably paid me 1 compliment in the last year.....don't sweat it just keep doing you.
Nothing new really happening.
Wife has had some really bad health days this week. She's up at 3 or 4 am to get on her heating pad (I get up 5 ish now to workout in the morning and she is either watching tv or back asleep). A few casual conversations about nothing, way better than fighting. Other than that, giving her the space she wants and working on myself.
Working out prior to work and after work and helping the kids with their homework and stuff in the evening.
So whats important and what isn't....
Found out some info from a mutual family friend today. Innocently enough didn't know they were giving it to me and I didn't react so they don't know that it was informative and I didn't know.
Heard my wife had told my daughter that they were moving (this was a few months ago) out to a farm (same state) and that they would have to change schools. Hasn't happened yet, and was never mentioned to me by my daughter and of course not by my wife.
Let this one go or ask questions?
Next is the rumor that my wife is now working. Must be from home since she doesn't go anywhere anyways, but what could she be doing? And she is always complaining that she can't do anything due to her health. Why would she hide it from me other than just wanting to lay her plan to escape and of course keep all the money?
So ask about this one or let it go as well?
Do not confront her. Go talk to a lawyer if you haven't already. You need to know exactly where your custodial rights would stand.
How old is your daughter?
Goals sound good.
Working on just being positive within myself.
I suggest you find some source that will feed you what you need for a positive outlook. For some, it is through their religious beliefs, for others is reading books on positive thinking, listening to motivational speakers, etc. IMHO, we have to have
feed that part of our spirit with positive food, in order to have positive energy.
I can understand the spot you find yourself in GAL. For now, just getting away from the house and spending time with nature (if you like that sort of thing), or going to a book store to browse, whatever you might enjoy that doesn't require a down payment.
I would not confront your W about the rumors you've heard. This may be something she is telling others, but just let it be, for now. Same about her telling D she may be changing schools.......especially if D confided in you. Just try to comfort your D as best you can, and if your W continues to say things that upset the kids, then you will need to address it.
I think you are doing well, considering the circumstances.
Sandi,
As i am abit of a newbie here and i dont know how to directly tag you in my own thread, can you take a look at my stich?
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2784300#Post2784300Your infinite wisdom on here is obviously legendary and i feel you could really offer me some solid insight into my sitch with my WW.
thanks.
S
Thanks Sandi2.
I always appreciate your insight.
So things escalated in a very bad way today.
D14 had her wellness check (physical) yesterday. Asked my wife to step outside so they could talk privately. W overhead D telling her doctor she is depressed, hates life and is cutting herself. She mentioned the issues at home and with her friends (peer pressure and just being a teenager, etc.).
Son made a report for school and created a certificate for both me and my W as being the #1 best Mom and #1 best Dad.
Clearly this is adversely affecting both.
W was too tired last night to mention it, but mentioned it to me today when D asked to spend the night at her friends. W is shrugging it off. "we just need to get her in therapy". I responded that she just needs a stable home life.
The teenager part for my D will happen anyway. This bad part of my WAW's decision is horrible. I am at a loss as this is now not about my MR. This is about my children's safety and security.
What do I do?
Do I meet with an attorney and see what I can do to make a plan?
Do I ask my wife to leave knowing there is no place or money that she can afford?
So for the moment I am reeling on this and venting a little here. I am seeing things in a totally different light. My W is selfish. She doesn't see this as a problem. I always thought she would be the exact opposite as she went through almost the same thing when she was younger. Her father left one night when she was 13. She acted out, did drugs, shaved her head, etc. etc. Her mom finally sent her to a "special" boarding school. She never graduated high school (did get her GED many years later), and then ran off to live in a few other states doing drugs and hanging with generally bad people where even worse things happened to her. HOW CAN SHE NOT SEE HOW THIS IS GOING???
Feeling way different today than yesterday. Again, I need some help and advice. This is not about DB'ing or my MR anymore. This is ONLY about protecting my children from any more of this...
I'm not Sandi2, but I can answer.
You needed to go see a lawyer yesterday. You absolutely must, MUST go see one. Before you talk to your wife about anything, you need to know where you stand. If you don't you will make mistakes.
Now, your wife is correct about one thing: your daughter absolutely needs to go see a counselor. She needs someone to talk to - someone who is not her mom and dad. She's hurting, and whether your wife stays or goes, your daughter will keep hurting and keep internalizing what has happened to her parents. Please, get her help. For that matter, your son probably needs to go to therapy too.
As for asking your wife to move out... Before you do, decide if this is what you really want. I would suggest talking to a lawyer and an IC before you do anything rash. No, scratch that. I IMPLORE you to do that. You need to be sure that asking her to move out is right for you (legally speaking) and right for your children (in terms of their mental and emotional health).
Good luck.
W overhead D telling her doctor she is depressed, hates life and is cutting herself. She mentioned the issues at home and with her friends (peer pressure and just being a teenager, etc.).
Try not to "blame" this on your sitch, because you really don't know that your M is what is causing this. A lot of kids go through very rough times even when they've got very loving and supportive parents in a strong marriage.
Son made a report for school and created a certificate for both me and my W as being the #1 best Mom and #1 best Dad.
Clearly this is adversely affecting both.
What am I missing here? Your son says you are #1 mom and dad and somehow you are spinning that into a negative?
W is shrugging it off. "we just need to get her in therapy". I responded that she just needs a stable home life.
I doubt your W appreciated your little jab at her. You do not know the cause of your D's depression. Depression is an illness and is often NOT SITUATIONAL. Your W is right, she needs to be in therapy.
This bad part of my WAW's decision is horrible. I am at a loss as this is now not about my MR. This is about my children's safety and security.
What do I do?
First, quit blaming your W. Second, get your kids in therapy. Third, you talk to the kids' therapist and find out what you can do to support them in the best way possible. Fourth, be the most amazing dad to your kids that the world has ever seen. That includes NEVER saying disparaging things to them about their mom, whom they love dearly and think the world of despite your marital issues.
W was too tired last night to mention it, but mentioned it to me today when D asked to spend the night at her friends. W is shrugging it off. "we just need to get her in therapy". I responded that she just needs a stable home life.
If your D14 is cutting herself.......
please, get her into therapy ASAP!
Was it the physician or D14 who spoke to your W about it? If it was D14, the physician probably told her she could tell her mom or the doctor would.
The teenager part for my D will happen anyway.
No-no, this is not a "teenager thing". Your child is cutting herself b/c she cannot cope. Get your eyes off of your W for a moment. Do you understand the seriousness of what D14 is doing? Get her help now!
You cannot depend on your W to make healthy choices and act like a normal mother. She doesn't see what is happening to her children b/c she is too self absorbed. You need to take charge.....and don't wait on your W to agree or to join you in seeking help for D14. Speak to the physician who examined her. Alert the D14's school counselor and get references for a therapist or whatever advice they can tell you. Treat this seriously, b/c it is. If need be, seek help through the school district's social worker. I don't think your W will accept the seriousness of it, b/c it would require her accepting some responsibility, and she won't. I don't know if you should mention to D14 about talking to her counselor or social worker, b/c she'll probably be very resistant to wanting anyone knowing. I'm not an expert here, and I'm just making suggestions. If it were me, I'd talk to the school counselor,
first, and see what steps they advise in how to approach D14. Where I live, the school counselor's are more
academic counselors rather than psychological. So, don't depend solely on the school counselor for psychological therapy for your child.......but alerting the counselor would be a good idea. Plus, the counselor and/or social worker would probably be able to give you references for a therapist.
Get to a lawyer to see your legal rights and options in this sitch with your W.....and also inform the lawyer about D14's cutting issues, just in case s/he advises something to do from the legal standpoint.......should your W fight you getting help for D14, etc. But don't hold up on seeing a lawyer before finding a therapist for your child. Research teenage girls cutting themselves, and become educated in what you need to do in protecting her from herself.
I wrote this post pretty quickly, and like I said.....I am not an expert in these matters. Someone else may have experience or be more educated in this particular field and can offer better insight. I agree that your children take priority over everything else.
I am very concerned about your children, and will pray for you all. (((hugs)))
Thanks to all that replied.
Just to re-iterate some of the post was venting. I hate that all of us are going through this.
To address a few comments.
1- I have called an attorney and trying to get in front of them as soon as possible to evaluate everything.
2- I will get my children counseling as they have been dealing with way too much.
3- My reason for speaking that my son's report was him being in a bad place is that both my W and I have commented to each other and noticed that for the last few months my son has been way sweeter, nicer, less talking back, hugging, kissing, overall affectionate and way more accommodating than his usual personality dictated. He just seems to be way overcompensating with saying the things he is saying and doing the things he is doing. He is the sweetest sweetest boy anyway and has always been very sensitive, but you can see the change.
4- Regarding the Teenager stuff for my D happening anyway. I was referring to more of the regular teenager stuff as peer pressure, grades, life, etc. The cutting is a HUGE deal and I am not discounting it in the least.
5- You are right that I probably shouldn't have made the stable home environment comment to my W. It is how I feel, but probably shouldn't have been said. I know that there are great homes that have kids that struggle, but I also know that a stable foundation at home allows the child to feel secure and tackle the challenges of life. My bad on the comment. Part of me trying to do better is realizing when I make mistakes. Mostly they rarely happen, only on a daily basis.
6- Doctor nor D mentioned it to my W. My W overheard the private conversation as the walls were very thin and she heard it all.
7- I don't know what to say with regard to putting it out there that the decision my W is making affects everyone in our family. There are consequences to actions made by decisions that each of us makes. Children should not be the recipient of having to deal with these consequences. I am not "blaming" my W. I do think that the situation that BOTH of us have put our children in is not healthy and needs to change so that they have a stable foundation with which to move forward and challenge the world as the world challenges them. There should not be an instance where they feel unsafe and insecure in their own home.
This is all new to me as well. I am not an expert in MR, D, Kids, counseling, or how to deal with these complex and drastically life changing issues that are before everyone in our home. My wish is for all of us to be happy, healthy (as healthy as we can be), and enjoy our lives. If it takes my MR to be done for this to happen, so be it.
This is just a totally different feeling and place than where I was when I started on this board and read DB. I was obsessing, snooping, doomsday attitude, etc. Now this is about our children and working on myself. My W is going to do what she is going to do. This is affecting way to many people and these are the people who mean the most to me in this world. I can only take responsibility for my part. I
My upcoming steps are to find my children a counselor, to get in front of my attorney, to continue working on myself and to do all I can to keep my home safe and secure for all of us.
No pushing, no questions, nothing. I see a lot of running over the next few days!!!!
Good Morning DB Forum!
Update on the weekend. Asked to talk with W Friday evening about D and she said she was too tired. So we ended up talking Saturday late afternoon. Wife said she is not at all concerned, in fact she said she was not shocked that our D was acting out the way she is. She said let's just get her into therapy and move her forward. I agree with getting her into therapy. Just worried about the apathy on my W part that she wasn't shocked nor concerned, merely ready to pass the problem along to someone else.
We ended up speaking a little on our MR as I had stated that our children do need a steady foundation at home. Talk was about 30-40 minutes, but it was and is very clear that at this moment that my W is adamant about leaving and done. Kind of confirmed that she is basically talking with one friend of hers outside of her mom, dad and sister with this. This friend is feeding her hopes, dreams and satisfying her emotional needs. I don't know if I would call this an EA, but pretty much all of the things without the romance, etc. They talk everyday. Her friend is home all day as well with chronic health issues. They have been friends for 15 months and I have never met her. I believe they have only seen each other for coffee, etc maybe 6 times. BUT they talk constantly, everyday. I am not blaming this person as I know this is my W choice.
BUT what is the best way to deal with this? I believe her friend is filling her head full of bad information which will come back to haunt her (and me as well).
W says she is planning on leaving as soon as she can. No idea when this will be. She said she is going to give me a number (her expectations on whether we can agree on how to split stuff) this weekend coming up. She said she has a number in mind, just didn't feel like discussing it on Saturday. I pressed a bit, but backed off to let her have her space and time. I am hopeful that her examining the financials will open her eyes a bit. NOT to make her refocus on MR, but just to realize how drastically her life is going to change.
She is convincing herself that our marriage was a farce, that no one was happy, she even used the phrase "you terrorized us". She was referring to me dealing with the financial crisis that cost us our business and our home and the anger I felt during this time. This anger was not AT my family, it was at the situation, but it was present. I have apologized, we are beyond that, and there is really nothing left to say on that. I would gladly work on this more in the future. We have been together for 21 years, have 2 great kids, and have had an amazing life together. Definitely a roller coaster with the last decade of health issues, children (not a bad thing at all but this does change the home dynamic), then the financial crisis, and just life. Way more than most, but always knowing there are those that are dealing with things way worse than what we have.
Just looking for some thoughts on how to handle this friend that is kind of feeding into this "fantasy" my wife is trying to create. Now, please, before you chastise me for saying my wife leaving is just a fantasy I am referring to her totally blocking out the reality of this and how it is going to affect her. Currently a SAHM and now believes she is going to be able to go out and get a job, take care of the kids, take care of a home, and juggle the chronic health issues (weekend was fairly bad: Migraine on Friday causing 3 hours in the dark, Saturday on the couch, heating pad, etc most of the day. Sunday was worse. Chronic intestinal issue putting her in the bathroom at least 15 times during the day. Exhaustion, frustration, etc.) These issues are all outside of the financial part with regard to just the essentials: Rent, food, car, health insurance (including co-pays and RX's which is a fairly high monthly payment when you add it all up), cable, cell phone, gas, etc.
Don't know what she has planned, but getting in front of an A this week to make a plan.
I know believe nothing she says and only half of what she does so I am doing this. Really just concerned as to how I can make a difference with this other person so close to her. If this is even possible. Not giving up but am seeking help children right now.
Looking forward to hearing your thoughts DB forum!
W was too tired last night to mention it, but mentioned it to me today when D asked to spend the night at her friends. W is shrugging it off. "we just need to get her in therapy". I responded that she just needs a stable home life.
If your D14 is cutting herself.......
please, get her into therapy ASAP!
Listen to this. I was a cutter when I was a teen. It is not healthy. Likely some deep issues underneath it. I've never dealt with it. I think I will bring it up at counseling to see if there are any of those issues I still need to work through.
She is convincing herself that our marriage was a farce, that no one was happy, she even used the phrase "you terrorized us". She was referring to me dealing with the financial crisis that cost us our business and our home and the anger I felt during this time. This anger was not AT my family, it was at the situation, but it was present. I have apologized, we are beyond that, and there is really nothing left to say on that. I would gladly work on this more in the future. We have been together for 21 years, have 2 great kids, and have had an amazing life together. Definitely a roller coaster with the last decade of health issues, children (not a bad thing at all but this does change the home dynamic), then the financial crisis, and just life. Way more than most, but always knowing there are those that are dealing with things way worse than what we have.
Very very common. WASs always rewrite history. It is part of the WAS fog they go through. "We never should have got married." "We were never happy." "I have tried to make things work for X number of years and you didn't care." "You are too controlling."
Bottom line is that she was unhappy and she is blaming you for the bulk, if not all of, that unhappiness. Totally normal when it comes to WASs. Don't argue with her. Read Cadet's link for Validation. Use validation tactics. Any protestations you put up to these statements will come across to her as more "terrorizing".
Just looking for some thoughts on how to handle this friend that is kind of feeding into this "fantasy" my wife is trying to create. Now, please, before you chastise me for saying my wife leaving is just a fantasy I am referring to her totally blocking out the reality of this and how it is going to affect her. Currently a SAHM and now believes she is going to be able to go out and get a job, take care of the kids, take care of a home, and juggle the chronic health issues (weekend was fairly bad: Migraine on Friday causing 3 hours in the dark, Saturday on the couch, heating pad, etc most of the day. Sunday was worse. Chronic intestinal issue putting her in the bathroom at least 15 times during the day. Exhaustion, frustration, etc.) These issues are all outside of the financial part with regard to just the essentials: Rent, food, car, health insurance (including co-pays and RX's which is a fairly high monthly payment when you add it all up), cable, cell phone, gas, etc.
This was my wife's fantasy too. Not too mention her fantasy that though she'd have her own apartment, we'd continue to be friends and function like a family for our daughter. Go read my threads, you'll see how similar our sitchs are.
The fantasy will start falling apart. For my wife it started as soon as I started to let go. You have to leg her go to get her back!
The minute I started letting her go she started to hedge on her fantasy. She even almost admitted it was a fantasy. I initiated BD, not her. I confronted her about an EA and the fact her web history showed she was looking for apartments. She then dropped the "I don't want to be married anymore bomb". I begged, pleaded, did all the wrong things that LBSs do.
3 days later I came across the "let her go to get her back" advice. I told her I couldn't stop her, that it took 2 to make a marriage, 1 to make a D. That I disagreed with the D but I couldn't stop it. She sighed heavily and said "I was hoping to keep this a secret and that after the holidays the desire to get a job and move out would go away."
A couple weeks later I told her that EAs were a dealbreaker for me. That for R I'd need full transparency moving forward. She said OK, she'd update her resume. The next day she spent most of the day working on her resume. That night she came to me with tears in her eyes saying she wanted to WANT to work on the MR, but wasn't there yet. That she knew it was wrong to D and split up our family. That she was still hoping the desire to leave would go away.
I believe that is when her fantasy started to break. She realized she would need to get a 8-5 job (she has a degree but has been a SAHM since our daughter was 9 months old). Apartments were much more expensive than she thought, especially 2 bedroom apartments so our D could have a room there. She also realized that her situation was pretty good. I make good money and we have a very comfortable life. So she started to realize that her divorced life would mean more meals at home, less eating out. Less carry out. She simply wouldn't be able to afford it. I keep her in new vehicles, that would likely end too, she'd have to try to make a car last a long time.
Once her fantasy started to burst, she still had a hard time giving up the dream. Even though for weeks she didn't do one thing to move forward with the "get a job, get an apartment, get a D", she still wasn't ready to say she wasn't going to. Her resume never got finished. She never worked on it again after mid-January. She shifted from looking for an apartment for her, to looking for a new house for our family. But she still couldn't say she was all in on the MR yet.
She finally admitted it 4 weeks ago at MC. That she was ready to work on the MR. But that was weeks, actually 2 months, after her last effort to move forward. Her last verbalization of wanting out of the marriage came in mid-February at lunch when we were at a church-based marriage retreat. It was like her last ditch rebellion at moving for full R.
The point of this long response is that you need to detach. Actively work on detaching. You need to give her space to figure things out. You need to find chances to help her fantasy bubble get popped. My wife would ask "How much is the payment for my car?" "How much is my car's insurance?" "What is our energy bill (gas and electric)?" I could see the wheels turning in her head related to the real cost of her fantasy.
Plus the online EA OM moved on which further helped for her fantasy to be shattered. At almost 50 she wasn't going to just walk out and find a guy in his 30s.
Her fantasy will eventually shatter. It might take moving out and getting a D, but one day she will wake up and realize how good she really had it. It might be too late, you might have moved on by then. But look at ItHurts thread, his XW is now pursuing him 4 years later!
Waiting on D's doctor to me back to get the real story and guidance as I research therapists.
Steve85.
Thanks. I am looking up Cadets and Ithurts thread now.
YES, I have to detach more. This is a must, very hard, but a must.
Again, thanks for the input and the support.
Talked to my D's doctor yesterday. Working through the list to get her a therapist. Other than that, uneventful night. detached, went for a run, spent some time working on the computer after dinner.
Left this morning and just said goodbye.
reading more on detaching and the validation threads when the conversations do happen.
Talked to my D's doctor yesterday. Working through the list to get her a therapist. Other than that, uneventful night. detached, went for a run, spent some time working on the computer after dinner.
Left this morning and just said goodbye.
reading more on detaching and the validation threads when the conversations do happen.
JustSad, sounds like you are on the right track. Remember, consistency is the key. That is where a lot of us stumbled especially early on.
I can tell you that detaching works when down right. I could not believe how when I was able to do it well, how quickly my W would change course. Another marriage expert put it like this: It is kind of like when two guys start to square off for a fight. One will push the other. The other will then immediately, once they recover their balance, come forward. She described to me that I need to give my wife an emotional shove away. And her natural instinct will be to come towards me.
The problem is very few of us early on are able to do that "push" or detachment, or differentiation, well. It takes practice, diligence, patience, and resolve.
BUT what is the best way to deal with this? I believe her friend is filling her head full of bad information which will come back to haunt her (and me as well).
Is this a female friend? Doesn't really matter, but women can be huge enablers. They can cause as much destruction as a romantic affair, IMHO.
She is convincing herself that our marriage was a farce, that no one was happy, she even used the phrase "you terrorized us".
This is an example what I meant by friends causing destruction. More than likely, this new friend is suggesting thoughts & ideas in the head of your W. Be sure that you tell your lawyer about this statement she made. You don't want trumped up charges. Have you told your W you have a lawyer? If not, don't volunteer.
Just looking for some thoughts on how to handle this friend that is kind of feeding into this "fantasy" my wife is trying to create. Now, please, before you chastise me for saying my wife leaving is just a fantasy I am referring to her totally blocking out the reality of this and how it is going to affect her
Chastise you? Honey, I wrote the book on fantasies! The only thing that will crumble those sand castles is the cold splash of reality.
These issues are all outside of the financial part with regard to just the essentials: Rent, food, car, health insurance (including co-pays and RX's which is a fairly high monthly payment when you add it all up), cable, cell phone, gas, etc.
Listen to me for a minute, okay? YOU are a lot more worried about how she'll survive, than she is worried about it. You don't need the stress......and there is not a darn thing you can do to stop this train wreck. Just get out of her way and allow reality to crash down around her. You have protected and provided for her all these years. You are used to being her rescuer.....but, she has fired you! Do you hear me? She has fired you from those responsibilities. When a person doesn't want to be saved, they will fight whoever gets in their way. To her, you are the #1 enemy. Hurts, doesn't it? Sure it does.......and you have a lot on your plate right now. You are a great father, and you've been a good H, but she has to experience something before she will back away from the fantasy. She has to see that it was nothing but sand castles, and realize what she was throwing away for a stupid fantasy. Unfortunately, the H cannot talk sense into her. He can't fix her.
I think she'll want you back, when she sees nobody is going to take care of her. While she's going through all the stuff and you are allowing reality to hit......you need to decide if you want a W who just wants you back b/c of what you provide. That's a decision only you can make. Maybe she'll realize that she loves you, IDK. But I seriously don't think it's going to happen until she starts experiencing the consequences of her choices. So, stop protecting her. I know, it's really, REALLY hard to have that kind of tough love. I have not used it in a M situation, but I have had to use it with my children. It's the hardest thing I've had to do. It hurts and it's scary, but sometimes, it's the only thing left to do b/c they won't listen and learn. They have to face consequences. You cannot reason with a person who doesn't have logical sense. ((hugs))
I am relieved to hear she was willing for D14 to have therapy. I still think you will need to lead in this situation, simply b/c your W is too self absorbed and is not making wise decisions for
herself......so, how can you know she'll get behind this thing with D14 and get a therapist and see that D14 attends the sessions? You see, she may just take the advice of her friend.
I know believe nothing she says and only half of what she does so I am doing this. Really just concerned as to how I can make a difference with this other person so close to her. If this is even possible. Not giving up but am seeking help children right now.
When I was younger, I had a few friendships with other women where we spent most of the day on the phone, and talked about everything. I do mean
everything! Women can have powerful influence over other women. It doesn't mean they are in any type of affair, but women friends can be very enabling. Now if this friend is a man........then yes, I think it can easily turn into an EA. I realize it doesn't have to be opposite genders to have an A, I'm just saying how female friends can influence her decisions.......and cause her to have fantasies apart from a romantic connection with that friend. A so-called man friend can cause her to think in terms of romantic fantasies that are attached to
him.
I'm not sure how you mean to "get in front of the affair", but seriously......what can you do? What is the worst you can do? Maybe I should ask, what's the
best you can do?
Steve85 and Sandi2
Thank you guys for your input, support and drawing me back when needed.
I don't know how to quote the things in your emails to respond to, but here are my thoughts on the comments and questions:
VERY hard day so far. I think this is due to the detaching and the A appt later today. I know it is the right thing to do and I am going to do it. It is just hard.
Sandi2, you asked if the friend was a female. Yes it is and this is a double edged sword. What I mean by that is just what you are thinking. My wife has made it totally clear that she hates men, period. This used to exclude me, but now I am lumped in as can be expected. She always had interest in women, but never "crossed any line" in our marriage. She dabbled prior to us getting together (so high school and college and generally only drunken or drug infused situations). This friend has no job, is disabled, and has nothing else to do but to listen, be there, and feed my wife's thoughts, fantasies, and maybe desires. I don't think so yet on the last part, but it may be headed that way. I do think it is moving towards an EA (but more of a deep friendship that of course only women have). Again, I agree that she has to crash for her to see what she is leaving. Do I know if I will be there when that happens? I truly don't know. As I am going through rebuilding myself and trying to make a safe and secure home for our children, I may see it differently in the future. I am almost convinced that I actually need to contemplate (I hope you can feel my heart dropping as I am saying this for my wife) going for primary custody of our children. I just believe that I can provide a more stable home, without interruption. I would be VERY open to a huge liberal door for her to see them, but with the decisions she is making and the direction I see she is going, I don't see her situation being one that our children will be safe and secure in.
I will not volunteer that I have an A to my W. I just want to be prepared and make sure I am doing what is right.
The last think I will say besides thank you again Sandi and Steve is this:
Sandi2...THANK YOU! I have never actually been fired before. It feels pretty good knowing that it is not my "job" any longer. I am going to admit that I am really going to struggle with the part of just not taking care of everything, but knowing that she doesn't want me to any longer helps. The 2x4's to the head sometimes actually get me to think and see things more clearly! I agree that I cannot change her. Trust me, I have done all the things prior to this that Michelle says never do. Begged, pleaded, argued my point, etc. etc. etc. Done doing this! IF she decides after her crash to work on our M and I am available, we will discuss if it is the right thing to do. I will always love her. She is the mother of our amazing children. I will not be a doormat and I do not need her to survive.
Appt with A went as well as could be expected. Got the information I presently need and will act accordingly to protect myself. No immediate action necessary (outside of getting my D into therapy). Continue detaching, GAL, and let the sand crumble in her fantasy world. I don't wish this on her, but know that it has to happen in order for her eyes to be wide open and see how this will really work. Again, I may be the blind one and she may be much better off without us in a MR.
Good evening. Good run. When I got home my W was on her vibrating heating pad upstairs in our bedroom. Said she threw her back out. Showed empathy and moved on. Made the kids dinner, got some things done and relaxed for a bit.
Take Care today DB'ers!
Oh the ups and downs of a WAW in an MLC!
W was please as anything when I got home last evening. Still reeling from pulling her back as she had her back brace on and adjusted it every 15 minutes so everyone would hear in the room as it has very loud velcro straps. Kids were studying and I was returning a couple of emails prior to my run. No one said anything. I checked on the kids work and headed out for my run prior to dinner.
Dinner was pleasant. My W, who couldn't eat for 6 months except for mostly broth and jello, thankfully is back to partially eating so all 4 of us sat down and had a family meal. Kind of a rarity for the last several months due to W's health issues. Kids did their thing. W and I watched a show, no big deal. W was so exhausted from her day she headed up at 830 to go to bed, Thursday is her morning carpool day for the kids so she has to get up at 5 to get her coffee and be on her heating pad for 2 hours so she can make the 30 minute round trip to get them there. She was asleep when I came up around 11. I woke up at 4 and laid in bed contemplating the day for about 30 minutes. Thinking of work, kids, and of course getting my mindset together to make sure I am in my right mind for DB'ing today. Got up at 430, headed down and worked out until 6. Heard W get up at 530ish and she made it down to her heating pad (our workout room is in the basement so I didn't see her, just heard the tv come up and her moving around. No big deal and totally expected. Finished my workout, came up and made the kids lunch then headed upstairs to get ready for work. Came down, wished my W a good day and also wished her luck at her doc. She has an appt today. I didn't ask with which doctor, or why as she has asked me not to be too involved with her health as I am too "controlling". Ok, respecting her space. I would usually ask her to let me know how it goes, but refrained. After wishing her a good day and saying goodbye, her response was that of a person who was a little ticked off. Don't know where that came from, didn't ask, and headed out the door.
Maybe it was her pain, maybe it is knowing that there is not much in our joint account and there are co-pays (there is enough to cover, I get paid tomorrow and will put something in there to make sure there is enough to cover what needs to be covered). Just to clarify, I am not cutting her off financially at all, we are just living kind of paycheck to paycheck right now. I have had to slow down at work a little as I am dealing with all these issues and being in sales, it shows. I moved my paycheck to a separate account when she got her own personal account and filed (then withdrew). I only did it to ensure that all of our main bills were paid in a timely manner (rent, health insurance, cable, cell, utilities) and to make sure there was enough for groceries, etc. I am fully open with her and when she has asked I have gladly shown all of my paystubs along with the bills that were paid. With her current mental state (not a jab) I just don't want to be caught with her draining the account for whatever reason and we are stuck in a very bad place financially.
Anyway, long paragraph and sorry for droning.
My half hour contemplation this morning was really a good reflection on what is happening and committing to the detaching part. This part is very hard as we are still living in the same home, sleeping in the same bed, and have 2 children as well so I cannot totally detach nor totally go dark.
Good news is my D has already made plans for, at least us (is W wants to do it fine, if not that's ok too) to make dinner and have game night on Saturday evening and we already have plans to make a really fun Sunday dinner together. LOVE that she is trying to connect more. Still have calls out to counselors as most are just too far out right now.
Looking forward to it being warmer, longer days so the kids and I can do more outside. I have no idea how W and I are going to deal with summer, but we have a few weeks to worry about that.
Letting my W have her space and contemplate her future. I am already working on mine. I need to refocus on work a little more so that is another goal of mine.
JustSad, good job! Sounds like you are doing well.
"My half hour contemplation this morning was really a good reflection on what is happening and committing to the detaching part. This part is very hard as we are still living in the same home, sleeping in the same bed, and have 2 children as well so I cannot totally detach nor totally go dark."
Just one comment here. Detaching is not going dark. Reread the link on detachment. Detachment is exactly what you did when you got home and the wife was trying to get attention by adjusting her back brace: not reacting! When she speaks you listen. You validate. You are pleasant, upbeat, and present. You just aren't starting conversations, etc.
Thanks Steve!
Always appreciate feedback and a good pat on the back (or kick in the @$$). I did go back and read the difference between detaching and going dark. I know they are 2 different things, but it is always good to go back and review. The unfortunate part of it all is that it would be easier to detach and easier to go dark if we didn't have the day to day issues of children, the house, etc. This was my point. I would love nothing better at this moment than to just give her the space she wants and let her reflect. I didn't initiate any contact today, she sent me a text about an hour ago reminding me our D's school conference is tonight. I just replied asking if her health allowed her to go and that I would be home in time to go as well. She said "maybe, it's been a rough day so far". I just replied "ok" and left it at that.
I am learning that she is using her health issues to manipulate the situations more and more. I know the issues are real, but I believe she is overstating them sometimes.
Knowing that she is going to have to get a job, take care of the kids, and take care of a home along with her chronic health issues may be settling in. Looking forward to this weekend when she is supposed to let me know what she wants financially in the D. Whatever it is, it can't happen now, but at least I will see if she is realistic or has no clue. I am hopeful for the first but am thinking it is going to be the later and that if it moves forward it will become a battle royale. Not assuming and keeping my best, confident, cheerful self (not faking it either!) forward at all times.
Will update if/when anything happens...
Hot off the presses....
Last evening my D had her regular school conference. I got home a little early to get my run in prior. On my run W texts me that we need to talk after the conference.
Conference goes well, my D is having a good week and has communicated with both my W and I very well this and is upbeat. so VERY GOOD!
Got home, kids went to watch some tv and sat down with W. She mentioned that her goal is of course to move out on her own. I knew this, and totally expected this. What I didn't expect is that she is wanting to move to a city that is over an hour away from where we are now. AND she said she wants to do it over the summer. Says that she and the kids (and agreed that all of us) need a fresh start. I agreed that we need a fresh start. Unfortunately, moving our children over an hour away and we are stuck in the home we have now until the end of January really doesn't work for me. How am I going to have the kids every other week (what we agreed to)? I can't drive them an hour each way to school half the time. Just not possible nor is it fair to me. Her suggestion is that I just move up there as well. We used to live in this town 7 years ago and we both loved it there so that wouldn't really be a problem for me. We discussed finances and she is actually being very reasonable on what she is asking for. I think we would be very close on our numbers so I am thankful for that. With the same breath I don't know how she would make it. Again, not my problem any longer, but my concern is where our children will be half the time. The city she is speaking of is much more expensive than the one we are in now. The most expensive county in the state and it is estimated that you need a household income of at least 100k to live there. Glancing at apartments for them (she said she wants an apt) 3bdr/2ba are running right at 2k/mo. I'm no genius (obviously) but it doesn't take that to do the math. No job, no income, how would she get accepted on a lease? and how would she even pay her bills? again, I know not my problem, but my concern is of course for her well being and our children. It would be a challenge for a little while for me to even do it. I went through our lease this morning and I don't see a way for us to get out of it. I don't want to "lose" our children for 6 months. Looking at the school ratings, the ones they are in now are excellent compared to only average where the suggested move would be. The complaint from my W is she hates where she is at (shocker!) needs the fresh start and is trying to justify that the kids need a fresh start as well. The challenges of a new school are tough. My children have been in this school district their entire lives (almost D had 1st grade in the city we are speaking about). When I was a child, we moved constantly and I changed elementary schools 5 times and then went to a high school that I didn't know a soul when I showed up. Throw that in with the transition of mommy and daddy parting ways. I am unsure as to how this would play out. It may be the best thing for everyone. I don't know if it is financially feasible either. The charge, if we could negotiate, to break the lease would be substantial. Deposits, moving costs and upfront rent would be substantial as well. I voiced a few concerns and said we could discuss and delve in further, but I would not be for having our children apart from either of us for 6ish months.
She then said something that caught me off guard. I recovered quickly. She said "I have to ask a couple of questions" Ok.
"for the last 2 months you haven't been your angry freaky short fused self. You are your old self. You are working out , eating better, friendly, playful with the kids, helping out more, whats up with that?"
I simply responded that I am resigned and have resolved within myself that I am not going to be angry any longer. I spent too much time in that bad place, it is not me, and this is who I am. She responded back saying "sometimes you are working out twice a day, are you trying to impress me? or someone else?" First time she ever half accused me of pursuing anyone. I'm not unless you count her through DBing. But the fact that she asked was almost laughable. I stated that really all I do is go to work, come home, run and she pretty much knows where I am all the time. I don't report in, but I'm in the office everyday. She stated "I don't know what you do all day!". Funny! Told her again I was not trying to impress her or anyone else and that I am just working on myself and being a better father to our children.
I didn't dwell, asked if we were done and we could discuss more as we get more information on this "plan" she proposed.
Pulled up the lease and sent it to W. I don't see a way for an early out without a STIFF penalty. Didn't say that to her, just pointed out the paragraph and said we can discuss.
Zero idea what she is thinking other than she just wants a fresh start all the way around in a place that she likes. I don't blame her, but we are adults and have made commitments. Pointed out that we would both need to live fairly close (a few miles) to each other to make sure their commute to and from school wasn't horrible for either of us and them. Also asked that if I got a great job offer somewhere else does that mean you would move to that city too? She said no. Thought so. didn't say that, just wanted to make a point.
That's where we stand. She wants to leave. Is concerned that I'm trying to impress her or someone else. She acknowledged that I have changed and even said I am like my old self. I just commented that we both went through a hard time, handled it differently, and that I was always in there just shielded for a bit.
Got up, worked out and am now at work.
Comments...
Temp checking all around!! Even the proposal. As you point out, the it isn't realistic. Finacially, geographically, educationally. She was testing you. "Let me float this crazy suggestion and watch the angry JustSad show up because I know he is really in there waiting until I let my guard down!" You know her better than I do but my guess is that she has no real desire to pursue this realistically.
But then on to the real temp checking. The discussion. You're DBing is working!! She is wondering what is up. You've changed. You have 180'd. You are taking care of yourself. You are GAL! So now you've got her attention. She is interested in what is happening. And she came up with a crazy idea to try to throw you off your current track. And better yet you didn't take the bait!
Keep up the good work JustSad, it is paying dividends already.
Thanks Steve!
She is a very decisive person so this will not be an overnight change. This is a marathon and not a sprint. Nor is this my manipulating her back into our MR. This is me getting on with my life and if some point she focuses back, if the door is still open, and we choose to work on it, who knows!
Thanks for the pat on the back!
My goals for this weekend:
Stay focused.
Work on myself.
Have fun with my children.
GAL
Let W have her space.
Weather is going to be a little challenged again so I will probably be at home. Have a new book I can dive into so looking forward to that.
As always, I appreciate the support. It is just nice to put these things out there and get feedback.
When are you going to stop wasting your thoughts and energy on her fantasies? Stop trying to figure out how she'll pay for things. She's certainly not worried about it. In fact, she thinks you will continue accommodate her by following her wherever she moves.
In a way, you are still trying to rescue her.
Dear Sandi2,
Thank you again. I am realizing what you said more and more each day and am practicing getting better. This is her decision and if she stumbles, falls or makes it big, not my responsibility. Easier said than done but I am working on it.
Compare it to an over-protective parent. When the child is ready to leave home, the parent has to let go, which means, s/he has to change some years of behavior patterns attached to the child. No, it's not easy, but you can do it.
You know she cannot do any of this stuff she is fantasizing about.....but you have to get out of her way and let her find out for herself. Stop trying to do it for her. Break that pattern. The harder it is now, the quicker she'll see that she cannot make it on her own, working and living in a big city with big expenses.
It was a good weekend.
Friday was quiet, just read as it rained/snowed.
Saturday did a little work out of the house and had a decent run. Turned out a little weird on Saturday night. Kids wanted to have a fun dinner and play games. We had planned it all week. Told W and said she could join if she wanted to, no pressure, just letting her know what we were doing as we were going to be in the main room and that is generally where she is on her heating pads during the day/evening. Made dinner and then my W joined us all as we played cards, board games, and listened to music. At the end of the evening (11ish) our we were just watching some music videos all on the couch and our kids both fell asleep on us. W and I were separated by a kid so we weren't next to each other, but still on the same couch. Very pleasant evening full of laughter, fun and family. Also very weird. The songs my W was picking out were songs from our past that meant something to us. Didn't say a word, just watched and enjoyed my family, and was Happy to do so.
Sunday, back to normal. Did my usual cleaning around the house and was making our bed when my W came in and just went over and started helping me. Just let it happen.
I didn't dwell, we had no R discussions and I still was able to get some good reading in and focus on my week ahead.
This week should be good. Working more on work and opportunities. GAL more. and concentrating on myself and my kids. W gets her space which is what she wants.
So just looking for some feedback on how/when to push any issues. W and I have some decisions to make and I don't know when I should address them and how far to push.
She has stated that she wants to separate and is working towards that. I am detaching, GAL and giving her the space she is asking for and would love to keep our MR together and work at getting to a better place.
With that in mind, we are looking at:
1. Open enrollment for health coverage. The plans are vastly different and based on whether we are together or not would affect which plan I chose. She has very serious health issues and the rest of us do not so one plan would make WAY more financial sense for myself and the kids where as the other would just benefit my W.
2. We have a storage shed which if I got rid of, moved everything into the garage, which means she would have to park outside, would save us $250/mo. BIG savings right now.
3. Would love to change cell providers, cable providers (and service level) to reduce other costs as well.
Outside of separating the rest of the stuff, suggestions on how I should handle these? If I just did the ones above I could save close to $500 per month outside of the healthcare. It would inconvenience my W (not my reason for doing this) but money is tight.
Feedback is appreciated on all fronts...
LH19
Nothing is showing in your reaponse
Do you have a lawyer? There are legal implications to making changes to your W's healthcare. I think that legally you cannot drop her unless she has already made other insurance arrangements.
We have a storage shed which if I got rid of, moved everything into the garage, which means she would have to park outside, would save us $250/mo. BIG savings right now.
I would discuss it with her since it affects where she parks. As a side note, I don't understand why people rent storage space. If you've had it for two years that's 6000.00 you've paid in storage costs. Do you even have 6k worth of stuff in there? You don't have to answer that, my point is just that often people spend crazy amounts of money to store stuff that isn't worth much.
Would love to change cell providers, cable providers (and service level) to reduce other costs as well.
I would wait on this until you know if you're getting a D or not. Because if you switch now then you may be tied to long-term contracts that you have to break when you get a D since you'll have to split it all into separate accounts.
LH19
Nothing is showing in your reaponse
Read the disappearing postings thread.
Thanks AnotherStander.
I am not trying to drop my W from healthcare. It is now open enrollment for my company. I changed jobs a little over a year ago and just stayed (cobra) with my old company since we had already met our deductible. Issue is, not to drop her, but there are a few plans available and which way to go? All provide coverage, just different co-pays, RX costs, deductibles, etc. The storage thing is because we had to vacate our old home and just needed the space. We have only had it for a year, had to move quickly, and whichever way my MR goes, will only have it until the end of the year at the longest. Just looking to tighten the belt. I would have done it anyway regardless of her choice, but feel a little pinned down and don't want her to feel like I'm punishing or penalizing her in any way. I am not. Like I said, things I would do anyway. Have consulted with an A and do know that there are responsibilities legally and morally that I must adhere to through this.
The healthcare part is not my decision to change, merely the time period with which I must as I am nearing the end of my Cobra eligibility and again, open enrollment to change over.
I know if we do end up getting a D that she will be off of my insurance when we final and are legally done. The company will not allow an unmarried adult on the policy.
On the other parts, thank you for the input!
A roller coaster of a weekend followed by a day of medical stuff so this update and request for feedback is way overdue!
First, W's Bday was Friday. I worked, but had asked with the children what she wanted to do. Movie and dinner was the plan (always depending on her health). I got up, made her coffee, and since our kids were out of school (Happy Bday to Mom!), I had the time and made her breakfast. Nothing fancy, just hoping to make her day a little brighter. I know this is not really good at the letting go thing, going dark, but sometimes you have to follow and do what you feel is right (welcome the criticism here). When I left early for work, she was actually in a good mood. Move forward to Noonish where I get the phone call of her balling her eyes out since the kids were ignoring her, playing in another room and not doing anything to make her feel at all special. Consoled and validated a little bit. Spoke with my daughter and asked her to be a little more sensitive, get on board and make it a good day for her mother. This didn't really work at all as my D then asked her Mom if she could go and do something with her friends and commented "why does your Bday have to be today". Well, that kind of poked the bear (me) on that one. I got home a little early as we were trying to head out early. D was obstinate (as teenagers will be) and we talked a bit. She was upset as she said she didn't see the point of us doing anything as a family since W and I were getting a divorce anyway. We haven't shared that with them. She is not dumb. Discussed how married people fight and have ups and downs and that we still love each other and regardless of how things ever turned out, we will always love her. I also told her she cannot live in fear of what may happen. If her parent's marriage ends in divorce, why not enjoy the time you have now? What if the marriage doesn't end in divorce? You wasted the opportunities to spend time with your family. PLEASE don't live your life worried about something that may or may not happen!
She got a little upset and then said some things to me that were hurtful and cruel. That she didn't like me (we hang out all the time) and then she described in detail, using the same exact words my W uses about how she feels about me. Wonder where she got that? Upset me very much. Controlled, calmed down and discussed it. Asked if she would at least try to salvage the day for her mother and she said yes.
W was having a very bad health day combined with the emotions of the birthday, her father forgetting to send her a message and then he also sent her a kind of mean message, and just generally pitying herself for most of the day. We ended up not going anywhere. Kids and I went and picked up dinner from one of her favorite restaurants and we all watched a funny movie at home. Cake, cards and gifts. I did get her a card but only signed it with my name. Nothing sappy, marital, loving, etc. Just a regular Happy Bday card.
Saturday we took my D to get a dress for her dance next week. I bought some new running shoes and hadn't worn them yet so I took the opportunity to wear them and break them in.
W kind of went off with "nice new shoes" I guess we can go shopping and buy stuff again. I hadn't bought new shoes in 5 years! What does she care? I got baited into an argument and I was unable to resist to get fully into it. I tried and failed to disengage. Prior to it erupting she did disclose that she had a couple of leads on jobs (in the city an hour away) and her "friend" is getting her business off the ground soon. Supposed to start in March and now has "issues". Validated that I was glad she was looking into stuff and things were looking positive.
We discussed briefly about medical stuff since our switch over to new coverage is today. She mentioned that she thinks when its all done that she is just going to get on Medicare. Validated that even though I know her quality of care will drastically reduce as well as the RX's available to her. Also didn't mention that medicare is income based and if she makes too much, she will have to move off of that. Taking Sandi2's advice here that I have been fired, she doesn't want my help and it's not my problem. She talked about moving to the other city again and I voiced my concern that I didn't desire my children to be over an hour away. She said that "we (her and the children) just need a fresh start. This is ALL referring to her, not me. She made some comments like she hates the city we are in and that is the main reason she is unhappy. Unfortunately, I took that lure and reacted asking that if we relocated for a fresh start with our family, would she then be willing to work on our MR. She hesitated for a long time and then said "if I ever get to that point, you will definitely be the first to know".
We discussed money for a few and I asked if she intended to go back to work now to give all of us a little help as we transition. She said maybe. I will let that stew for a bit as yesterday she spent at the dr's office and was asleep when the kids got home. How is that going to work again adding in a full time job????
ANYWAY. So I got sucked in and very much regret allowing myself to do that. I had the choice, and I should have ended it quickly. W's Bday day stung her very hard I believe as she couldn't do anything because of her health, the kids didn't treat her well, and she didn't get much of an outpouring of support that she thought she was going to get.
Lots of family stuff this week, so unfortunately there will be a lot of interaction. I will keep it to a minimum as much as possible. Working on myself still and actually looking pretty good! W asked if I had my teeth whitened (switched to a new toothpaste). Thought it was funny she noticed.
She is still determined to go on her own path. I am validating her choice and letting her make the decisions and move it all forward. I will not hinder, but will not do it either.
Every family has their own brand of celebrating a birthday. However, this mother's self centered attitude, and tattling to you that the kids were not paying more attention to her special day......made me a little sick to my stomach. She is an adult. You enabled her (and that's why W called and tattled) by telling the D to be more sensitive and "to get on board" to make her mom feel special. You do that a lot, you know. The kids have to make mom feel good. It's always about mom.
They are doing what normal kids do.......which is to hang out with other kids. Your D may have thought there was a little hypocrisy in making a big to do over mom's birthday, and right now, D is very angry at her parents. She did not want to hear another "We both love you very much and none of this is your fault" speeches. She has seen how accommodating you have always been to your W, but what makes D angry is that you've tried to make the kids be accommodating to W, also. After they get into their pre-teens, they really resent this kind of stuff.
I strongly advise you to stop telling them to do anything for their mother's sake. You seem to be blind to the results it has caused. Just stop it.
Again Thanks Sandi2.
Yes. I do that a lot. I have enabled, cared for, catered to, and unfortunately had my kids do the same thing for my wife. Actually came up in our discussion that We (kids and I) were going to stop feeling guilty that she can't go and begin making plans. W is always welcome to go, but we are all going to GAL. I was wrong with my daughter and I will talk with her about that (a little, I don't want to dwell, but do need to validate that she was correct in her feelings and thoughts and it was wrong of me to exert pressure in this way).
The 180, detaching and going dark are all VERY difficult. I am realizing more and more that my identity over the last decade (since the first major health issue) has almost centered around her care. I still work a lot, but my social network (outside of work) has dropped to almost nothing. So it is now in my nature to do these things without thought. I have to now work diligently and think before I do or say anything. I am fully aware of my responsibility in this. I believe this is part of the reason my W has lost all respect for me as a man and husband (not a pity party at all, just looking at it from the research and comments I am getting here, etc.) I can see how everything played out and the problems that we allowed to happen without intervening because we didn't have the right tools. I am unsure if the MR can be saved. I am certain that I can be and I can be sure my kids are ok as well.
With all the R posts I wanted to post something positive this morning.
Zero contact with W yesterday except sending her a mediation checklist that she had asked me to resend. She sent a sarcastic response back. I didn't respond.
Got home a little later than usual. Kids were good. D was caught up in her homework and S was playing. Got ready for my run and asked my W a question. She just walked away and went to the bathroom. D looked at me with a questioning look like "wow, why did she act like that". I didn't say anything, just asked her to get back to work on her homework and headed out for my run.
No conversations after that for the evening. Just let it be.
VERY proud of my D though. With all her struggles she had a big report due today and her "partner" dropped the ball so my D had to pull an all nighter to get it done.
Checked on her at midnight, 2 and 415am and she was still up and working. LOVE that she persevered and did it. She totally looks dead on her mom and of course as a girl acts like her as well. But this is totally my influence on her. VERY proud of my D today for making it through the night and going to school and owning it!
Stayed up after the 415 check in and got 90 minutes in on the treadmill, off to work, in a GREAT mood this morning and ready to take on whatever happens!
Got ready for my run and asked my W a question. She just walked away and went to the bathroom. D looked at me with a questioning look like "wow, why did she act like that". I didn't say anything, just asked her to get back to work on her homework and headed out for my run.
Come on man this is part of the problem. Don't let her treat you like that, especially in front the kids. Makes you look weak and teaches your daughter how to treat men in future relationships.
You make it clear to her that you asked a question and you would like an answer to the question.
Have you done your home work on boundaries?
That's great news about your daughter. She is going to need you to be strong and centered for her!
Actually I believe my D was impressed that I didn't say anything or let it blow up. She smiled, shrugged and we spoke for a minute about her project. Before that would have drawn me in hard, so I feel more like I didn't take the bait and react the way she wanted me to. She is being childish, selfish and everything is about her.
Thank you for the feedback and I will go back and look at the boundaries part.
Actually I believe my D was impressed that I didn't say anything or let it blow up.
I am glad you didn't blow up and I think you are missing my point.
You have to make it clear to your W in a direct and firm manner that you will not tolerate disrespect from her. Especially in front of the kids.
Understood and Thank you!!!!
Ok.
Just looking for some feedback if I'm looking at this the right way or not and handling things correctly.
I've been working hard on myself, working out, eating better, etc., GAL, detaching, and going dark with NC as much as possible with living in the same house and having kids.
Last evening I had to take my D to the store as she has a dance this friday for a dress. She doesn't have any that fit so it was necessary. W totally knew as we have all been out looking for this a couple of other times. Went to the mall, looked at a few, she tried one on that was really cute (i took a picture and sent to W) she liked it too. Unfortunately, the dress didn't have a tag and we found out it was WAY too expensive. We went to another store, found a very cute dress that she loved that was 1/3rd of the price and came home.
Everything was good until about 8ish. I said I was just going upstairs to read and W mumbled something that I didn't hear as I was walking out of the room. I stopped, came back in, gave her the attention and informed her I didn't hear her. She stated " I just don't like being F$@ck#d with". I sat down directly across from her and asked her what she meant. She said " were you seriously going to buy that expensive dress for our D?". I informed her of how things happened and she of course didn't believe me. Went onto how things were now just so "weird" with me. I'm working out, sometimes twice a day (sometimes I need the morning and the evening release), losing weight, taking care of myself, kind and considerate to our children, etc. etc. etc. She said "why would you do this now?" "I don't care, but I'm just curious". Just told her that I am working on myself and focusing on the children and being who I am. Her response was that it was just a farce and I would go back to my former self very soon. This is not going to happen as I actually am more relaxed and like myself much more presently. MUCH more work to do, but way better than a year or even a month ago. She then said " if you are trying to impress me, or win me back, I am not interested and I don't care" Then she intimated that I might be trying to impress someone else. I did put her mind at east as one of our boundaries of living in the same home is that we were not going to date other people. I told her flat out I would not violate that boundary. That this was just me concentrating on working on me and the children.
She then complained about how I bought a few new clothes. I'm in finance and appearance is important. I didn't buy an armani wardrobe, just a few sport coats, a suit and a couple of shirts. All on the clearance rack to boot. We are tight on money, but losing 25ish lbs and 4 inches off of my waist, my pants look funny and my shirts are HUGE. I don't mind wearing my usual stuff, but sometimes there are important meetings where something that actually fits is needed. Acknowledged her concern and followed through with letting her know why it happened and what I spent. Oh, by the way, she did our laundry and found the receipts in my drawer so she was snooping a little there...Not interested huh?
Her concern on this is that since she started her individual account, I moved over my paycheck to an individual account. The bills are paid, there is a few hundred in our joint account, but she does not have access to what she once did and this is upsetting her. She thinks I am playing her and thinks I am making more money than I am telling her. I have shown her every paycheck so she knows, she just is at that point where anything that comes from me she doesn't trust.
We talked for a few. I was tired from being up with my D all night as she was working on her project and W was tired as well. She did mention, your out there spending all of this and then you ask me to get a job to help? Um, yes! You are going to be getting a job anyway, so why not help now.
We ended the conversation. She is still pissed and thinking I am hiding a bunch of stuff, which I am not.
Questions:
1- Did I handle this correctly?
2- How can I do better?
3- If "she's not interested" why does she care and why is it making her upset?
4- Is this part of the "don't believe anything they say stuff"?
Thanks DB forum!!!
Her entire line of questioning boils down to one word........jealousy.
It's okay to listen to what she has to say. Just be careful about over explaining yourself and giving her a list of reasons (and assurances) of why you did something.
Her entire line of questioning boils down to one word........jealousy.
It's okay to listen to what she has to say. Just be careful about over explaining yourself and giving her a list of reasons (and assurances) of why you did something.
^^^^^^^^^THIS
The mystery will get her even more curious. Jealousy is right. As well as probably some attraction to you that she is rebelling against. This is why she is telling herself (and you) that the changes are temporary. She is trying to convince herself not to fall for you.
I think you handled it pretty well. You should concentrate on validation without, as sandi said, lengthy explanations and/or assurances. Her feeling a little unsure is to your advantage.
Monday morning weekend update.
Weekends are always tough. I think I had mentioned this before since my W and I are both at home. I was determined that this weekend we would make it through without a fight or an argument.
My D had a dance on Friday evening. I was driving her and a friend and they were getting ready at our house. Everything was fun. W came downstairs, we were alone for a few minutes. She leaned and stretched out over the island of the counter. She has been in tons of pain this week due to her medical conditions and exhaustion due to RX changes. Seeing she was in pain, I reached out and rubbed her neck for a few minutes. Nothing major. She said thank you and wished it could last for a while. I said, well our S will be playing and our D is off to her dance in a bit, if you'd like, I can work on your neck and back when I get back from running her to school. She said that would be great.
So dropped of D, came home and prepped up the room just a bit. Put towels down so not to get oil on the sheets, turned up a space heater (W is always cold so trying to help her relax). She came up, got up, dropped her dress to her waist, laid down and unhooked her bra. Ok, before this goes any further, I know what you are ALL thinking. This was not a sexual, sensual or anything of the sort act other than my trying to help my W relax from a very difficult week. Did I want to connect? YES. Did I want her to see me as compassionate, caring, etc.? YES. Still, not the reason I did this.
Anyway, back to the story. Began working on her back and neck. She said that her lower back was really tight. Moved down to that area. Moved her dress and panties down slightly so as not to get oil on them. I just got involved in helping her relax. Something we have done for years, but not done in a long, long time. Fast forward through and she then was totally naked (towel given to her to cover to make sure I showed respect and that this wasn't going anywhere). I finished the massage, wiped he oil off her body, we watched a show, and she thanked me for the massage and said she felt tons better and way more relaxed.
No jumping for joy on this one, but it did feel good to physically connect with my wife.
Saturday afternoon comes. I went to change into my workout clothes to go for a run. She was sitting at her table in the bedroom and said she wanted to talk. She said she was very emotional about what happened last evening and wanted to talk about it. Ok, let's talk. She thanked me again for the massage. Then while crying went into how she feels I crossed a boundary by giving her the massage and her ending up naked in front of me. She said that she feels like she froze during the massage and that she didn't have control. She was not yelling or anything like that. Made sure to point out that she totally thought that I wasn't trying to make a pass at her, or take advantage of her in any way. I responded that I was sorry that she felt that way, that if she was uncomfortable at any time that she should have said something, anything. I recalled the evening at each time I moved to a different area, I would let her know. I also know that I told her prior to removing her dress and underwear that I was doing so merely to make sure that no oil was going to get on them. I have seen this woman without clothes 1000's of times over 20+years. I know her body better than she does sometimes. She is gorgeous. To me she is perfect, scars, freckles, curves, all of it. BUT the night wasn't about that. I was merely about trying to help her relax.
We spoke about this for a few minutes. I told her I never wanted to make her feel uncomfortable, on the contrary, it seemed like she was very relaxed during the entire session. But, I did validate her feelings and again said I had zero intentions of hitting on you or thinking anything was going to come of it (in the past, we these sessions more often than not ended in a fun encounter). She then mentioned the fact that if we are moving on from one another that she has to move more towards detaching from our MR. She asked that we move towards getting our plan together for this. I responded that I had sent her some forms to fill out and was waiting on her response so we could hopefully work all of the issues out prior to filing and we can do our best not to involve attorneys. She then went on to mention that we need full and open lines of communication so we don't read too much into each other. She stated that last week when she had found out I bought a few new clothes, that she "was ready to file that day" she was so pissed. She said that after we spoke, she got it off her chest, and she understood why I did, that she was not as volatile any longer.
How are we supposed to detach (her desire) and keep full, open lines of communication?
Was Friday really a "shock" to her, or was it that she started to feel in her heart and missed me a bit? I only ask this as her emotions seemed sincere. I can tell when she is pissed and crying. This was not one of those times. It was heartfelt and she was feeling.
Is she pushing me away now since she saw that she still has feelings for me and us?
Wrapped up the conversation, went on my run, and we just watched tv that evening.
Yesterday was easy. Morning run, afternoon run, household chores and errands. W was in a RX tailspin after missing one of her doses. She had 3 naps that took most of the day. (gonna be hard to fit in that job in the future isn't it?)
Took the kids to an early dinner to get us all out for a bit. And finally settled down and watched a show and then bed.
So, NO FIGHT!! I think that was a great accomplishment.
How do I deal with what happened? She says she is bound and determined to see this divorce happen. I am looking for feedback as I value what is said back. I believe DB'ing is working. I am committed to it. Kids get out on 3 weeks from school so I don't know if that is when she is thinking of moving or not (don't know how she is going to accomplish this or not either).
Feedback...PLEASE!!!
Interesting update. Lots of similarities to my sitch. It seems as if your W is conflicted much like mine was the first couple of months after BD. And yes I think the massage made her question the fantasy she has of her "new" life. And she didn't like it.
If you read my threads you'll see my wife had similar plans as yours. She even started working on her resume, but abandoned it pretty early on. For weeks after not doing one thing to get a job, get a place to live, moving out and filing for D, she would still state that she was wanting that. In the meantime I was in full DB mode with the changes, 180s, trying to detach, GAL etc. And all was having an effect.
My advice is to continue doing exactly what you are doing. If you see an opportunity to do something for her like you did Friday night, make the offer. She'll either take you up on it or turn it down. Make sure you show you are good either way.
Likely your wife will be living right where she is at for the foreseeable future. Also, let her initiate the open communication on the D. You took the opportunity Saturday to remind her that the ball was in her court. Leave it there. Likely she won't follow through on it. Your goal here is to not openly thwart, but to passively delay. Time is your friend. Use it to your advantage.
Steve85. Read a lot of your posts and yes, seems to be very similar issues going on.
How do I deal (and your response is that you just have to and that's the way it is!) with the issue that your W has decided and you know in your mind that she has decided to end the marriage. She is generally not one to change her mind. She has commented on my changes and how she likes them, but she always adds in that she is just waiting for "the other shoe to drop" or for it all to stop. I realize this is not an overnight fix as it took us years to get to this point working the wrong way!
I am not the same man I was when this all started. I do have the same heart, the same soul and feel through them both the love I have for my W. I don't know how this will end other than I will improve myself for whatever the future has ahead.
Thanks again DB!
JustSad, I always tell LBS here that yes she has decided to end the marriage. But that took a change of mind. After all, she vowed in getting married to be committed to you for life. So can she change her mind? Absolutely.
As far as your changes, your consistency is key. Even one slip up in the changes will set you back. Potentially all the way to the beginning. If you were controlling before then it is imperative that you don't control anymore. If you were verbally abusive then it is imperative you do not verbally abuse anymore.
Consistency and time. That is the key. Be consistent. Give it time.
You can't control her, only yourself.
JustSad, I don't think you did anything improper regarding the massage, and it very much sounds like she regretted it LATER rather than during. You did a really, really excellent job of validating, kudos to you for that! Well done! You handled the discussion perfectly.
You're over 10 pages so time for a new thread!