Good day to you all!
I have been lurking in these forums ever since D-day. I've read both DB and DR, I've read and another book, and I've read through all of Sandi2's rules and WW threads. I've brushed over the validation cheat sheet as well. This is not to say I think I have all of (or any!) of the answers, just to give you a heads up on what research I've done thus far. I'm going to go into my long story, and then I'm looking forward to hearing some suggestions as I'm kind of in a bind as to what to do going forward right now. First, the elongated and I'm certain wholly typical backstory:
My wife and I have been together for almost 16 years and have been married for 12. She was my first serious girlfriend. We were married in 2005, and had our first son in 2006. Shortly after we got married, I began to actively suffer from alcoholism. My addiction has been a dark cloud over the entirety of our marriage. Our second son was born in 2008. Throughout all the years we've had ups and downs, and last year I checked myself into alcohol rehabilitation to finally kick the addiction for good. I am 9 months sober today.
Unfortunately, not drinking and being in active recovery are two different things. After I got out of rehab I did not work the AA program, instead I was just a miserable drunk who wasn't drinking.
12 years of marriage to a man who was emotionally checked out, verbally abusive, unpredictable, selfish, quick to lie by omission. The most major mistake I made was a one night stand in 2012. After rehab I'm sure there was hope for change, but I continued with all of the self pity and jealousy, control, verbal abuse, unpredictability, and continued to push her away. I can see that it was probably the last straw.
February 9th 2017 was D-Day. She came home with a car full of groceries, I was unemployed at the time pursuing online content creation and was "working" on a video game I was playing. She asked for help carrying in the things, I dodged the request. She made a sideways comment, the argument escalated into a screaming match, and I left to go for a walk to collect myself. While I was out she texted me that "I need a break". When I asked from what she said "From us."
I rushed home and did all the things I'm not supposed to. I begged, I pleaded, I threatened to kill myself, threatened to drink, guilt tripped her over the children, if you can find something on the internet they tell you NOT to do...I did it. She gave me the standard script stuff. "I love you but I'm not in love with you." "I need space to figure things out." "There's no one else, I just want to be alone." "I'm tired." We both pretty much followed our scripts to a T. I asked to go to counseling, she said it won't make a difference she's made her mind up. After begging and pleading her to go to counseling, she relented just so that the counselor could confirm our marriage was dead.
At this point we split up the marriage bedroom. She started to sleep on the couch. I told her that my only boundary was no extramarital relationships with potential romantic interests and she agreed. She said no intimacy of any kind, she doesn't want me touching her at all.
I made an appointment to see a marriage friendly Emotionally Focused Couples Therapist for Monday February 13th. We went to the first session, and very early in the session he identified that I wanted to save the marriage and she just wanted out. He pivoted us from EFT therapy to "discernment therapy" which is essentially individual counseling for each of us while we discern whether or not there is still a marriage there to save. It lasts a maximum of 6 weeks. It's not therapy at all, just exploration of willingness to find a path of marriage recovery. I didn't want to do that, but it was discernment or divorce so I agreed.
The next day I was reading all of the forums I could, and kept reading how "ILYBINILY" and "space" are all indicators of an affair, but I was sure my wife would never do that. Still, all of the script signs were there so I decided a little light snooping would help me sleep better. I pulled up the cell phone logs to discover thousands, I repeat THOUSANDS, of text messages to a strange number over the last month. I punched the number into Facebook and was staring OM straight in the profile picture.
I confronted her immediately over the phone. This was the beginning of the trickle truth. First he was just a work friend and they'd been discussing work. I mentioned that she had more text messages to this one person than every other text message to every friend and family member combined so I'm not buying it. Then she admitted ok they were friends, but it was strictly platonic. I continued to press about the frequency and the times, and she admitted ok she had a crush on him but she stopped talking to him weeks ago. I reminded her that I was looking at the phone logs that showed him texting her THAT MORNING. Finally she admitted it was an EA. I asked her how far it had gone, and she said they never met up only texting and sexting. She claimed she never sent nudes, but they did talk about sex. I was devastated but instantly forgave her and said I didn't care. I did demand NC immediately, and to the best of my knowledge she has maintained that to this day. This was still severely damaging to me, as it was a clear violation of my only actual boundary and when she dropped the bomb she laid such an emphasis on my one night stand from 5 years prior being the main reason she can't love me again.
We continued for the next few weeks in discernment counseling. I read the 180s and tried my best, but I was weak and continued to slip into psychosis where I would hold her hostage in a conversation and attempt to force her to see things my way. I did a lot of snooping on her Facebook and once in a while I would steal her cell phone to check in on how she was feeling. I knew these things were wrong, and hated myself for doing it, but I was weak. I used the information from her texts to prove that she was lying to my face when asking about a few things, which only frustrated her more. I knew this was unhealthy so I asked her to go ahead and change all of her passwords so I couldn't snoop any more. I didn't want the temptation.
Leading into week 5 of discernment I was at my breaking point. I couldn't handle not knowing any more so I gave her an ultimatum: either commit to the 6 months of marriage counseling (EFT is 6 months of weekly counseling where divorce is completely off the table) or I'm moving out. I gave her until the next morning to decide. She came to me the next morning and said "I"m not sure I want to do counseling, but I'm sure I'm not confident that I'm completely done so I'll do the counseling." I considered this a victory, though I wasn't happy about it.
We started on the actual marriage counseling, and started seeing improvements. We got over the awkwardness of cohabiting while being split up and got back to some of the usual stuff. We still watch all of our favorite TV shows together, we still do family outings together, we would text each other from time to time. I read some stuff by Dr. Jack Ito that said that the first step to reconnecting is to become friends again and then once you're friends and her guard is down you can start working on attracting her back in a romantic way. So that became my focus, being a great friend (without backing off on my earlier extramarital boundary) while working on my alcohol recovery and getting in shape. I used to do absolutely nothing around the house, so I picked up all the housework I could handle. I went out and got a new higher paying job. I started focusing a ton on my relationship with the kids. Things were moving along pretty good.
I started to get my hopes up because we seemed to be connecting again, but every time we'd get into counseling she would say things to the effect of "we're co-eexisting" or "he doesn't bother me and I don't bother him" and I got FURIOUS. I brought this up in counseling and her response was to the effect of "I joke around and am friendly with everyone. I don't want things to just be awkward and quiet whenever we're around, but that doesn't mean I want to be with you again." This was so frustrating, but I had to remind myself "trust nothing they say and less than 50% of what you see".
Another issue started forming around the second week of April. My wife plays roller derby, and her coach is a man who's about 6 years older than she is. He's got checks in each of the biological trigger boxes (high self esteem, successful, passionate about something that she's interested in) and I noticed they became friends on Facebook in late March, and by early April they were basically liking every one of each other's posts. Now this isn't exactly a crisis of course, but as my wife is fresh off of an alleged emotional affair and we're still working through the very early stages of MC I was justifiably concerned.
I came to her to voice this concern in a constructive manner. She assured me that they were just friends, nothing weird. He's just her coach, they have similar interests and a similar group of friends. I thanked her for not being offended that I checked in and we had what I thought was a very good conversation. That night she stayed up until 2am talking to him on Facebook messenger. When I asked to see the messages the next day, she said she deleted them.
Clearly I was furious, but I kept my cool. I asked her to explain to me what it would look like to her if the roles were reversed, and she understood. She assured me they were just talking about roller derby and that nothing inappropriate was going on. She just deleted the messages because I had just said I was worried about him, so she didn't want me to worry more and was trying to avoid a conflict. I believed her, because I know that in the past it would have been a MAJOR conflict (remember I've admitted that in our previous relationship I was severely jealous and controlling) so in order to prove to her I was changing I told her I understood, and that she didn't need to hide things from me. She's allowed to have friends that are men, just as long as she abides by boundaries. I asked her to treat the relationship with him how she'd want her hypothetical high school aged daughter to treat her relationship with a high school volleyball coach. They can be cordial, but they don't need to be associating outside of the sport. She agreed to this boundary.
The next week they had their last home game of the season. She invited me to come watch, and afterwards said she wanted to go to the after party for just a little while. I am working on not being jealous and controlling, so of course that was fine! She got home at 2am easter morning and was active on Facebook until 4am. I confronted her in the morning and asked to look at her phone. She agreed. They had been chatting until 4am to the surprise of not me. Nothing too serious, only one orange flag sort of text from him, but the point remained that this was not adhering to the boundary. I was hurt badly, and went on the attack.
I again asked her to see it from my perspective. I started in on her about how disrespectful it was considering she had a 2 month emotional affair that she had just recently ended, and mentioned that I hadn't ever pushed her on details. I started asking questions about the previous affair. By the end of the conversation, her emotional affair had magically changed into a physical affair. I was devastated again. I demanded reconciliation or an end to the marriage. She said if those were her only two options, she wanted to be done. Unfortunately she called my bluff and I backed off. That night we talked and agreed to go back to the prior arrangement. We live together, we attend counseling, we figure out what we want. She said during our fight in the morning that she never wanted to do counseling in the first place, but during the evening conversation she said that she can really see counseling is helping us so she wants to keep going even if we are going to divorce. It was nice to hear her validate the need for us to be in counseling.
Fast forwarding a few weeks of counseling, and she has appeared to have backed off on her friendship with her coach. Our church has a 10 week marriage ministry program called RE:Engage that starts on May 3rd and I asked her last week if she would be willing to go. I told her I really would like to go and think it would help but I would give her as much time as she needed to decide. A few days later she came to me and said she'd like to go. I took this as a great sign, because she never wanted to do any form of counseling at all and now she was agreeing to a second counseling commitment that I had laid absolutely no pressure on her for.
So this leads us to present day, and where I'm starting to struggle a bit. I identify my wife as being somewhere in between a WW and a WAW. She obviously has wayward tendencies because she had a physical affair, and she's been pushing the boundaries of an EA with her coach. However, she's not behaving in any other sort of manner where she's "rebellious" or "mean". I really do think she was a WAW first that went wayward in an exit affair. I'm not delusional, however. I do know it's completely possible that she's completely wayward and just hiding it for convenience and it has been convenient. I take care of the lion's share of the housework as she's the primary earner in the family, and works many more hours than I do. I have manipulated my work schedule intentionally so she can continue to play roller derby this summer (and spend more time with her coach, who I presume will be coaching the summer league as well). Literally right now she is in Los Angeles with her team, and her coach of course is with them. This is obviously crushing me as I have no idea if she's really adhering to boundaries with him or if she's crossing lines. I've read enough to know that if she's a full blown WW that nothing is off the table at this point, but as I'm not snooping I really don't have much more than her word to go off here.
This is where I start to ask for advice if anyone has any. I'm sort of approaching the MR in between Dr. Ito's reconnecting through yes! strategy (build trust, reconnect, work on marriage) and Sandi2's rules (180 baby!). I'm 100% not pursuing or discussing the MR at all with her unless she engages me (which she hasn't yet). I'm doing the GAL. I don't text her first or start the conversation first. I've lost 30 pounds (and she's commented on how noticeable it is) and am signing up for a bunch of races this year to get back into running which was my first true passion. When she approaches me I respond and am open to amicable and fun discussion. We continue to laugh and joke, because I want to foster our connection and make her feel more comfortable. She sometimes references our inside jokes, sometimes fondly discusses things from our past. She'll slip and call me babe, her old nickname for me. She'll go to the store with her mom and come home with stuff she grabbed because she thought of me. She has stated in counseling that she isn't attracted to me and can't imagine being in love with me again, and can't fight the feeling that if I can get her to come closer and open up she can find those feelings again.
My concern lies with the fact that she's had wayward behavior around her coach, and I'm really worried that she's shuffling me into BFF territory. I am afraid that she's getting all the marriage responsibility stuff from me (housework, childcare, shuffling work schedules so she can skate, listening and empathizing with her problems, making her laugh, giving her positive reinforcement, watching our shows together) but that she's getting the romantic emotional needs met elsewhere (coach, possibly other person I don't even know about).
To be completely honest here also, I haven't been really applying Sandi2's rules for long. I really started the day after I found out about the PA so I've really only been detaching and giving her room to breathe for about a week and a half. She's in California now, and I pick her up from the airport Sunday night. I'm trying to decide where I go from here and I could use advice. I've been hybrid detaching and reconnecting. I'm enabling her to keep her convenient schedule for her hobby with a person who could possibly be a barrier to reconciliation. We have MC on Tuesday morning. I've considered the following options:
1. Pick her up and carry on as I have been. Ask her nothing about the trip. Do not engage her. When she engages me, respond and keep the conversation light and enjoyable and comfortable and friendly to promote reconnecting. Watch our slate of shows together Sunday night as usual. Carry on our normal routine, and approach MC Tuesday the way I always do. Just go with the flow and allow the counselor and her to direct the conversation. It's very likely that my discomfort over her being in California will be discussed, as it was discussed on the session the day she left as a major source of anxiety for me. We will have church counseling the next day as well.
2. Hard detach. Make it clear from the pickup I'm not interested in light conversation, without being cold or rude. When she asks if I want to watch our shows, tell her I'm pretty tired out from the weekend and I think I'm going to go to bed early and then be done with her for the night. Be scarce on Monday, again excusing myself from hanging with her Monday night. Address the fact that I feel uncomfortable with our arrangement in counseling on Tuesday.
3. Confront her right from the pick up that I'm not ok with her relationship with her coach, given the recent history of our relationship. Let her know that I will not be her errand boy cuck while she goes out and gets her emotional needs met by other people. This is a dangerous option because it's a difficult conversation and we won't have the counselor there to buffer.
4. Another suggestion I haven't thought of yet from you fine people!
So there's a giant wall of text for everyone. I am very recently at a point where I'm legitimately detached from the outcome of this whole ordeal. I am 100% committed to finding a path of marriage restoration, but I am aware that I can't force her to change how she feels. I've let go of trying to control and change her, and am focusing 100% on making myself the best version of me that someone would be insane to divorce. I realize that we're not even 3 months into this journey, and I have patience today like I have never had before. I know there is no quick and easy solution here. I'm grateful that she's giving me the most valuable asset I can have in this situation, MORE TIME.
In summary, the most important question: Should I carry on with trying to reconnect while doing my 180's/GAL with the knowledge that this friendship has the potential to evolve to an EA/PA or do I take action to make sure that doesn't happen while I'm taken advantage of? That's the rock and hard place I'm in right now. Thanks for reading! I'll be very active on the forums, and feel free to ask for any further information or clarification as I'm sure I left things out. Thanks for being here. So many of you have helped me so much already, and we've never even met =).
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
The first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htmYou may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH. Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
This is definitely a tough one. New hear myself, but at least you know that she still cares about you. Love never really goes away, it just get buried as partner running away loses hope. Tough part is that you have to come off as a better option than the OM. I know they say the OM isn't important and you shouldn't focus on him. But I'm curious to the type of person your W had an A with. From I've noticed WW have a habit of choosing OM who are worse than the spouse their leaving. So don't think that have nothing chance due to your past.
I also stumbled onto Dr. Ito before coming here. His explanation on how why the WW exist is very similar to Sandi explanation. And I also agree with the method of earning back the W trust. That method had me set up perfectly for when I stumbled upon the DB method. I can tell you now that yout W isn't given up her hobby for you. It s provably when she feels the most free. So if you make that demand your going to get your feelings hurt.
You should GAL and do a 180. But uour going to habe to be around somewhat to form a basic friendship, so she can at least learn to like you again. To her you may be the monster she wants to run away from. So go ahead and watch a few shows with her. Just don't dedicate all your time to doing so. Option 4 is your best option. If something happens between her and the coach, then you may just habe to accept it. Or consider that uour breaking point to just getting a BD. Keeping them apart is impossible, especially with the current state of your marriage. Coach is connected to what she deems her safe place. Hope this advice helps.
Just keep POSTING and one other bit of advice from Wonka
that I totally agree with.
Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.
It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.
We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.
Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.
Thanks for the reply Tread! I definitely know she still cares about me, she shows it all the time. The guy she had the A with was a handyman that did some work for her company. Totally different kind of person than I am. I'm a desk job, northern liberal type and he's a redneck work with his hands guy. I don't know anything about him save what's available on his public FB profile, but I'm assuming he's uneducated. She's already made it clear she wasn't in love with him at any point, and that her feelings for him weren't real. It was about escaping our relationship, not specifically about him. She hasn't had any trouble going NC.
It's funny that you say "I can tell you now she isn't giving up her hobby for you" because you couldn't be more wrong. As a matter of fact, I GUARANTEE she would if I asked her. She already wasn't going to go on this trip to California, and I convinced her she should. She wasn't going to pursue the summer league, I pushed her to do it. This is all part of my 180, pushing her to go and do these things that she wants to do. I don't want to hold her back from anything any more.
I don't think she'll do anything physical with her coach. I know she won't talk about her marriage issues with him (she hasn't told anyone on her team that we're having problems and I'm at every game they have so her team is aware she's married and unaware we're in crisis), but I consider the flirting and stuff to be on the border of an EA. The only way I see it going any farther than light flirting is if alcohol is involved and it's some sort of impulse ONS type deal. Even then I consider it very unlikely. Of course I'm dealing with a WW spouse hear, so NOTHING is impossible.
My biggest concern is that we're trying counseling to reconnect, and so if her emotional desires and heart are with someone else (coach) I think it will be very hard for me to get her to open her heart to me to reconnect. Sandi2 talks about how even an emotional affair even in the imagination can be a barrier to reconciliation. That's my anxiety.
Since I posted yesterday, I sort of settled on sticking to the 180/GAL and continuing to try to slowly reconnect. Hopefully I'm overreacting about the coach, and she's being honest that there's really nothing romantic there. I consider that unlikely, at a minimum I'm assuming a biological attraction, but if that's really all it is and she's really being true to the MC process if I come on strong I'll just push her away. Just need to trust the MC process and make myself too good to leave.
I feel like one major thing I have going for me is that she still LIKES me. Like, you said to her I'm a monster but the monster was our relationship not me. She likes to spend time with me, and whether she admits it or not I can see the connection coming back. She's said it a ton in counseling and to me one on one that she doesn't hate me, and she isn't disgusted by me, she's just not in love with me.
One thing that gives me a ton of hope is that during the miserable parts of our marriage I was suffering from active alcoholism. Now that we're attempting marriage recovery, a lot of the positive changes will be connected with my getting sober and a lot of the terrible things that happened in the marriage will be associated with addiction behaviors. So there's a clear association with why things can be different. Another major incentive to stay sober.
It's good that you convinced her to go. Though I imagine it was difficult due to her behavior involving the coach. But it shows that uour willing to support her. And having a hobby makes her feel an individual rather than just a wife. From what I've researched many if these WW get tired of just being wife and mother.
Her liking you still is big step in my opinion. You need to be the first person. She thinks of when she needs advice, tell a joke to and etc. The love should resurface hopefully sometime after that. As for my monster comment, I'm not sure who you were when you drank. It could have been completely terrifying in her eyes. And then when you sobered up could have been the man she feel in love with. I am sure she nervous in regards to you staying sober and having to do deal with the alcohol issues.
The biggest thing is her having hope in the marriage, because she has pissed that. Much like most of our W. But I encourage you to keep it up, because it seems as if your on the right path.
Yes it was difficult pushing her that direction for that exact reason. My counselor actually made a point of it to really emphasize how supportive I'm being and how selfless it is for me to truly want her to be happy even if it makes me very uncomfortable. He was saying how even in happy long term marriages, not every husband is truly supportive of a wife's individuality. It's a love deposit for sure.
I was def a monster when I was drinking. I'm sure that, even if she won't admit it now, she's scared I'll turn back to that person in the future and she won't be able to take it. I just need to keep up with my 180s, my GAL, and just give it time. My actions are what's going to get her to maybe come around.
She has ZERO hope in the marriage in her words. Every time we are in counseling she says "I still feel the same." However, the fact that she's even going to counseling and talking about how much it's helping and the fact that she's open to adding secondary marriage ministry help are actions that seem to me that she may have a bit more hope than she is letting on. I don't want to mind read or set expectations, but as long as she's still going there is hope.
I have another issue I could really use help with. Our dog is going to die, in the next couple days. She got sick right before my wife left for her trip, and was hospitalized the day she left. I just picked her up and they told me at this point we're just going to give her medicine to keep her comfortable until Monday and we will likely have to put her down. This dog has been our dog for almost our entire marriage, and we are both EXTREMELY attached to her. I was crying my eyes out on the drive home. What I need advice on is how to handle this with my marriage sitch.
I'm over emotional and during the time she fell out of love with me I was a big crying baby, constantly throwing pity parties and guilt tripping her and everyone around me. Through the first 3/4 of the time after D-day I would continually break down balling and beg her and try and make her feel sorry for me. One of my major goals with this 180 is to become a stronger person. I'm not ashamed of being sad, but I need to be strong for her and my kids. I can cry when I'm alone. So I'm considering not being there when they put her to sleep, because I can guarantee you I will not be able to hold back from breaking down. Also, I need advice on how to handle my W with this. She knows how much my dog means to me, she's going to know that I'm devastated. I don't know if I should just tell her I need to deal with the grief on my own, or if I should be with her and grieve with her. She cares about me, so to a certain extent I'm sure she'll feel obligated to comfort me but I don't expect her to want to hug me or hold my hand or anything like that and if she doesn't want to I certainly don't want her to feel obligated to, and then do it with a negative deposit in the love bank.
I'm confused on my best course of action here.
I'm sorry to say but you still sound in redouble controlling to me. You've just redirected it from "pulling" to "pushing". I'm not sure that's any better.
Also, a boundary is around you. It is about YOUR behavior. You say that you laid out a boundary for her - that's controlling, not a boundary. For example, you can say: "I'm not interested in having a marriage relationship where you are texting inappropriately with another man." It's her choice to do it, but you've made it clear what YOU are going to do.
So she had an A. You set a "boundary" for each other. She crossed it. And now what? You're just moving the fences around to accommodate her. I'm not saying you should do anything. I think you need to read a LOT more before making major boundaries. Remember - a weak boundary is worse than no boundary.
Last thing for now. Read read read about detachment. It isn't about being cold or ignoring her. It isn't something you talk about with her. It's not being physically distant. It's about taking control of your emotions. It's about learning how to not be "weak" as you say it. There are some great resources here. Before you make any grand claims, start reading them.
There was a guy here named Maximus your situation reminds me of. Maybe take a look through his threads.
Kaizen,
I appreciate your advice. I tried to search for Maximus' story but could only find his posts from 2016 where he was checking back in. I'll continue looking.
I can see how my "boundaries" are really just ways to try and control. And I suppose you're right, I'm looking at detachment as pulling away to try and pull her in.
I'm just going to be completely honest: I'm afraid of losing her. If you have any specific advice I would love to hear it.
I read up on all of Maximus' stuff. You were right, lots of good lessons in there. Really working towards real detachment, and you're right. At this point in the MR I'm not even sure how I would set a true hard boundary. I'm not 100% on what would even qualify as a deal breaker at this point. I can see how a weak boundary would be less effective than no boundary at all. Thanks for the advice. Still very interested to hear anything else specific, outside of actually detaching doing 180's and GAL.
I'm not 100% on what would even qualify as a deal breaker at this point. I can see how a weak boundary would be less effective than no boundary at all. Thanks for the advice. Still very interested to hear anything else specific, outside of actually detaching doing 180's and GAL.
Hello RunRec,
I'm so sorry for the situation you are in.
Big congratulations on being sober for 9 months! Keep up the good work!
Do you feel like you have tried lots of different things in search of the one thing that will work the best?
Knowing what to do and what not to do at this point is crucial. Feel free to give me a call at 303-444-7004 to discuss how we can best help you determine what to do next.
Cristy
Resource Coordinator
The Divorce Busting Center
303-444-7004
Thanks Cristy! I don't know that I can afford to do phone coaching at this time, but thanks.
Things continue to be hot and cold. We had a very emotional MC session on Tuesday morning, but a good talk about it Tuesday night. Wednesday we took our sons out to dinner for my youngest boy's birthday and we had a really fun time. W took a bunch of pictures, posted them to Facebook, and then tagged me in the album (which was a surprise).
Later that night we had our marriage ministry introductory class. She seemed very positive and in a good mood to begin the class, but by the end she was obviously not. The last thing we were supposed to do was fill out an informational card and the last thing we were supposed to do is rate our marriage between 1-10. She didn't want to rate our marriage, and unfortunately I pushed her to do it so she finally just rated it a 1. The rest of the evening she was obviously upset, but in a 180 I just let it go and pretended like everything was ok.
I'm frustrated because what I should have done is supported her and said if she didn't want to rate it don't rate it, but I really want to get the most out of counseling and marriage ministry so I wanted her to do it. It was controlling, and probably set me back some.
Otherwise I'm just working on detaching, which works sometimes and doesn't work other times. I wish I could bottle it up when I feel truly detached from the outcome, and just take a sip every time anxiety takes over. I continue to keeep a PMA and remind myself that I'm at the very beginning of this journey, not to believe anything I hear and 50% of what I see, and that while it's easy for me to feel sorry for myself that things aren't progressing on my time I have many things to be grateful for. She's interacting with me positively on a daily basis. She's going to counseling. She's going to marriage ministry. I have read stories of worse off relationships being restored, so I consider myself blessed to have these tools at my disposal. I just have to continue to pray, work on myself, and keep that PMA and hope for the best.
It's been almost a week since I posted and unfortunately things have completely changed. Friday night I was snooping on her cell phone logs (I know, I know) and called her out about a conversation I didn't approve of. The conversation turned into a fight, and turned into her declaring herself "done". At the end of the night, after all the fighting, she said she was 100% out and would be filing paperwork on Tuesday. I have made clear throughout the process that as soon as the marriage was officially dead (i.e. papers filed) I would be moving out immediately. She still relies on me a lot in the home, and hasn't had to feel the full effects of what me moving out would look like. She said she understood, and she was sure.
I came to her on Saturday and told her how sorry I was for pursuing and snooping, and for all the hurtful things I said while we were fighting. I told her I knew she wasn't going to change her mind, but I wanted to make sure she knew that no matter what happens with our marriage I need her to be a positive member of my life. I asked her not to make any definitive decisions from a raw emotional place.
Sunday and Monday went extremely well. We spent time together, laughed, talked about everything EXCEPT the R. Monday night I decided to have one last talk with her before MC on Tuesday and laid out that I'm coming around on the idea of us being friends, and that I'd like to stay in MC with the sole purpose of reconnecting as friends, reversing our negative interaction cycle, and if any romantic feelings showed up then so be it but that wouldn't be my agenda. She rejected the idea and said she is just plain done. I told her I know how hard it is to believe that from me, but I wanted her to let me prove it through my actions. I asked her to give me one week to show her I was serious, and she said she didn't need a week. She is just done. I was devastated.
We had another major fight, and didn't get to bed until late. I didn't sleep hardly at all. She still wanted to ride together to counseling and for the first time in this entire sitch we took the entire car ride without me saying a word or even looking in her general direction. I couldn't bear to speak to her or look at her. My emotions were so strong I didn't know if I would break down and cry or scream at her. I knew I needed to wait until we were with the counselor so he could help me.
Once in the counselor's office I didn't compose myself near as well as I wanted to. I started to lose my temper and raise my voice, and our MC smartly asked her to wait in the lobby so we could talk one on one. He calmed me down, worked some magic, and we were able to bring the W back in. I gave what was probably the most magical speech I've ever given to her. I explained to her how sorry I was and how these emotions over losing her can cause me to lose control, and I'll never give up on us being in love again but either way she'll always mean everything to me even as a friend. I don't recall my exact wording but she ended up in tears (the good kind) and said she completely understands and forgives me. I explained to her and the MC how I understand how she feels, and I'm not saying she's wrong to feel that way. My only reason for being apprehensive is that we're only 3 months from the BD, and I have spent the entire 3 months in varying stages of desperate pursuit and have given her absolutely no room to breathe or think.
I proposed a trial separation. I told her I would head out of state to stay with my parents. My dad owns his own business and actually is desperate for some help right now, so I can go stay with them rent free and get paid far more than I'm making now to work for him. This would relieve some of our financial burdens, give me a safe emotional place to work on my 180's and GAL stuff, and give her a break from me. This would also give her a trial run of what life as a single mom is going to look like without me available to help.
I proposed one month, but the kids are in school until June 26th and ultimately unless she asks me to come back sooner I'm going to plan on 6 weeks so I can fly back the week before they are out of school. I've already let her know if she moves forward with the D I will be moving out of state permanently. I'm going to give her full custody of the kids, and I'll take them for summers and we'll switch up holidays year to year (if I remain out of state). This will be another wakeup call if she decides when I come back that she wants to move forward with the D, she will have to wrap her head around not seeing the kids for the whole summer. She's never been away from them for more than a week or two at a time.
While I absolutely don't want to be separated, I honestly think this is my personal last resort technique. I wasn't handling the in house separation in a way that was attracting her back, so this should help me to truly detach and focus on myself. She'll either miss me and decide she wants to try again, or be validated in her desire to be divorced. I told her that at the end of this trial period I'm not asking her to commit to the marriage. If she commits to counseling to save the marriage, I will move back home. I also told her that the 4-6 weeks isn't a deadline. If she's not ready to make a decision in late June we can extend the trial separation but I will be bringing the boys back with me if we're still undecided.
So there it is. I'd love any advice I can get, or being pointed to any resources on how to handle this next phase of my sitch. My thinking is to 100% stop initiating any contact that doesn't directly relate to the kids. I'll be cordial, but short on words if and when she contacts me for anything unrelated to the kids. I will absolutely refuse any talks abou the MR. If she starts trying to talk about the R (very long odds), I have considered just politely telling her that I don't think it's good for us to discuss the R outside of counseling so if she'd like to get started with MC again I can make arrangements to come back early.It will be SUPER easy for me to do GAL stuff because my hometown has more friends and cheap accessible activities than where I'm at now by a wide margin. I'll be sure to post about all the exciting GAL activities I'm up to on Facebook. That way if any interested parties are concerned I'm shriveled up somewhere in a ball, they'll have proof to the contrary!
Any encouragement in the form of success stories after similar situations (WAS, infidelity, trial sep) would be much appreciated. I'm trying hard to keep my faith in God, and keep a PMA about our long term relationship prospects. Like MWD says, it's not over until it's over! She didn't file!
I don't know the other programs or approaches you are using, so I cannot comment on them.
I do know that many approaches vary, and so to me, it's best to only use one at a time. Like a "control" group,, so you'll know better now to monitor.
A lot of approaches conflict with DBing too. But I love your brave assessment of your program. I'm personally familiar with the 12 step program and know dry drunks are not necessarily big improvements for the family. You are relatively new to sobriety so all I can do now is applaud your efforts and naturally, encourage you to get back to some meetings.
Here is one thing I know **No matter what marriage retreat or personal growth workshops I've attended, LOVED and or gotten profound lessons from,
if I don't keep at it, I will positively backslide.
Anyhow, In my opinion (and not all DBers will agree b/c they have been betrayed by infidelity and will solely focus on the A),
you realized that you had serious issues to work on, and she had been doing the heavy lifting in the marriage & family for years.
But now that she's having an EA, (or more?) you want your whole focus to be on the boundary you set, and multiple tests of her "waywardness". Your focus seems to be on categorizing what she is and how to predict outcomes on HER end...
You yourself were wayward and abusive, (per you,) so naturally she's not too interested in risky conversations.
Is this^^^ a fair assessment?
you might want to stay OFF of FB for a number of reasons.
Check out advice by others. It's a risk you may not be aware of and you can be more mysterious by NOT doing that.
Plus it's easy to misinterpret other people's highlight reels and btw, you will see HERS
I blocked my h and I've had a very long m
"You yourself were wayward and abusive, (per you,) so naturally she's not too interested in risky conversations."
Absolutely a fair assessment. She still doesn't feel safe when we talk because of our negative interaction cycle. We're the classic pursuer/distancer. Through the last 3 months post BD we've improved very modestly but still get trapped in it whenever anything major happens.
I definitely have been focused on her infidelity and I think that's largely because her lying and being unfaithful is my only real resentment with her. She's been an incredible and forgiving and supportive partner our entire relationship. Her worst marital trait to me is that she doesn't like to talk about her feelings but a lot of that is certainly a byproduct of my being unsafe to talk to.
All that said, I've leaned more about what constitutes a boundary and understand how I was attempting to control her with "boundaries" rather than actually communicating what I needed to protect myself in the marriage. When we had our talk today about the trial sep I told her "my only boundary is marital faithfulness. I don't want to control you at all, but I can't be in an open marriage and I couldn't take the pain of another affair." and I left it at that. I'm literally in sudden death overtime here, so I just have to hope she honors that boundary but not let the anxiety consume me. It'll either happen or it won't but this entire thing is out of my hands now. I can only work on myself and make myself the best possible version of me I can be. I figured mentioning it once and dropping it constitutes a 180 since in the past I would have dwelled on it, and felt the need to reiterate and speak specifically.
"You yourself were wayward and abusive, (per you,) so naturally she's not too interested in risky conversations."
Absolutely a fair assessment. She still doesn't feel safe when we talk because of our negative interaction cycle. We're the classic pursuer/distancer. Through the last 3 months post BD we've improved very modestly but still get trapped in it whenever anything major happens.
I definitely have been focused on her infidelity and I think that's largely because her lying and being unfaithful is my only real resentment with her.
"don't judge her by the worst thing she's ever done" --- Matrix
(You might want to look up his post to Bluewave on her thread...seriously, it'd be a great idea to do that.)
Matrix had a wife who had an affair. They reconciled but he would or could not let it go...even after she did everything to compensate for it. ( I don't know if he had the same issues to work on in himself as you do, but he was not flawless)
and he held it over her head like the sword of Damacles and he resented her mightily...
for a long time... and over time, naturally she got tired of having to prove herself repeatedly and being punished for her one big mistake. She was hurt by him losing sight of his own shortcomings, and just honing in on the one big negative thing she did...and his never letting go of it ---till finally, she let go of him...
So your wife has done ONE wrong to you, and that is your focus, correct?
But you are here trying to save your m... so think about ^^that, okay?
And hey, dig deep. Because if you don't think you can forgive her, then let her go now. I mean, why waste time on her end or yours? Move on...
but you may Also want to examine how or if forgiveness was modeled in your childhood...
She's been an incredible and forgiving and supportive partner our entire relationship.
So she has set an example you don't want to follow or don't know how, or what?
I get that you want to feel safer than you do now, I feel like "boundaries" you are harping on are also set ups for failure and I am not sure they'll help you attain your goal. In fact, what would you say IS your goal?
Her worst marital trait to me is that she doesn't like to talk about her feelings but a lot of that is certainly a byproduct of my being unsafe to talk to.
are you reading this^^? Runrec, you have to own your stuff to work on and though some will say "Affairs are always wrong", in my opinion they are not all alike.
I know you are in a pain...but you have to Stay in your sandbox and do your work.
All that said, I've leaned more about what constitutes a boundary and understand how I was attempting to control her with "boundaries" rather than actually communicating what I needed to protect myself in the marriage.
SHE doesn't feel safe in the m, which you admit you are the cause of.
But here you are talking about what you need to feel safe.
I get that, totally. Your ego took a huge blow...but do you have any thought about what SHE might need to feel safe with you, given that she doesn't?
When we had our talk today about the trial sep I told her "my only boundary is marital faithfulness. I don't want to control you at all,
sorry but, these^^ things don't match. You can tell her YOU won't live in an open marriage and then stop telling her what you don't want HER to do...and then pretend it's not about control. To me it looks exactly Iike control.
Look - despite whatever semantics are at issue ^^ here, the bottom line is you are setting yourself up for more heartache -and losing sight of your own work.
So, You are here trying to save your m, or to stop your w from an affair?
but I can't be in an open marriage and I couldn't take the pain of another affair." and I left it at that. I'm literally in sudden death overtime here,
how do you think you could have restructured the conversation so you don't now feel you are "literally in sudden death overtime"? Do you see anything you might have done differently?
so I just have to hope she honors that boundary but not let the anxiety consume me.
the second part is what you control...
It'll either happen or it won't but this entire thing is out of my hands now. I can only work on myself and make myself the best possible version of me I can be.
correct
I figured mentioning it once and dropping it constitutes a 180 since in the past I would have dwelled on it, and felt the need to reiterate and speak specifically.
There's NO need to repeat it.
The more you issue ultimatums, the more you corner yourself into a spot you don't really want
and frankly, I'm not even sure you are really seeing the big picture here.
Here is what a woman here on these boards, once wrote to a LBH. (He wasn't her LBH). Anyhow, the LBH wondered why his WalkAway wife had not yet broken it off with OM and returned to the marriage, bc he had finally made a lot of needed changes & wanted to reconcile.
See if this resonates with you, or if your w could someday have written the letter...
Dear LBH
When I read your interactions with your wife, I could so easily identify with your wife's feelings/words/sentiments. I have been in her position in my M. I was the ignored, the devalued, the one who was treated as less than.-
One of the things that I have tried my hardest not to do, is not to engage with another man. Not just because of my marriage vows, but because I knew that when I truly engaged in any type of R with another man, it would make it that much harder to ever reconcile with my H.
Because being treated differently (better) than the way he treated me would lessen him so much in my eyes. So, I can see where your W is coming from.
When you've been mistreated to the point where you actually let go of your R enough to let another person into your heart or bed or whatever, it takes a boatload of work to get back on a page where you're recommitted to being with your S - and those uncertainties that she's expressed to you, I don't know if you truly, truly fathom how deep they run.
Six months of getting back on a page where you treat her the way that any wife should be treated, does not even scratch the surface of the years, the intrinsic devaluing that occurs when you're systematically mistreated for such a stretch of time.
And I promise you that while you have recommitted and worked for 6 months, your W has simply been trying to get to a point where she can even buy into the changes, where she can even think that you might have changed and not scoff at the thought.
Because when you build up hope again and again and again in your H and he crushes it again and again and again, you develop a thick skin, a protective doubt, a conditioned response to even the slightest, grainiest seed of hope. You are taught that when you hope, you will be disappointed. When you try, you will fail. You are taught that you will never be what he wants - and it is hard to shake what you have come to believe is reality.
And for the changes that you've made to have come only when she walked away and OM became competition, I can definitely see how she can doubly doubt that you truly want to be in a M with her, and not just to "win".
Even today you admit that you are not sure that you don't just want to "win".
Step 1 - figure that sh!t out ASAP. Because if you actually do manage to convince her that you really do want her - and really have recommitted to her, but you actually just want to win, you'll put her through hell.
Runrec, I want to commend you on the deep digging you are doing and the way you want to own your stuff. You seem brave enough to do the inward work needed to become the best man you can....and I want to applaud that.
I really mean that. It's been almost a week since I posted and unfortunately things have completely changed. Friday night I was snooping on her cell phone logs (I know, I know) and called her out about a
conversation I didn't approve of.
your wording is a little unusual. Was the conversation sexual, or wildly inappropriate?
The conversation turned into a fight,
and turned into her declaring herself "done".
So, what would you do differently if it happened again? Or would you stop snooping, like MWD preaches?
The only snooping that makes sense to ME, is if it's a 100% certain deal breaker and then it's all over. Boom, mic drop.
But when you know there are things that don't quite make it black and white, why bother doing that, at this point? At the end of the night, after all the fighting, she said she was 100% out and would be filing paperwork on Tuesday.
I have made clear throughout the process that as soon as the marriage was officially dead (i.e. papers filed) I would be moving out immediately.
WHY do that and WHY tell her? And filing for divorce does NOT make it over. 1/3 of divorces filed in my state, fade away after 6 months b/c neither spouse completes the work to finalize it. They reconcile...
And please, Stop the threats....it helps no one. It reeks of control. And Even if it's how you feel, why tell her in advance and thus make it an ultimatum? It's clearly meant to intimidate rather than setting a personal private limit for yourself
She still relies on me a lot in the home, and hasn't had to feel the full effects of what me moving out would look like. She said she understood, and she was sure.
so it was intended as a threat...do you see what I mean?
I came to her on Saturday and told her how sorry I was for pursuing and snooping, and for all the hurtful things I said while we were fighting.
I told her I knew she wasn't going to change her mind,
Can you try NOT to mind read^^^ or predict what she will feel or do? It's not really your place and it helps neitherbut I wanted to make sure she knew that no matter what happens with our marriage I need her to be a positive member of my life.
I asked her not to make any definitive decisions from a raw emotional place.
So you "know she's not going to change her mind"...and then you ask her NOT to decide, which is basically asking her to change her mind...Sunday and Monday went extremely well. We spent time together, laughed, talked about everything EXCEPT the R.
YAY so staying away from R talk helped soothe you both...and then...
Monday night I decided to have one last talk with her before MC on Tuesday and laid out that I'm coming around on the idea of us being friends, and that I'd like to stay
in MC with the sole purpose of reconnecting as friends, reversing our negative interaction cycle,
and if any romantic feelings showed up then so be it but that wouldn't be my agenda. She rejected the idea and said she is just plain done.
DBing is about doing what works and Not doing what does Not work. Simple, but hard. As soon as you felt you had made progress by having a nice evening, you went in for more extractions from her.
Which teaches her not to trust the good times b/c the other shoe will drop and you'll want more than she is ready to give.
I told her I know how hard it is to believe that from me,
again, you are telling her what she feels/thinks, etc. Just validate her feelings (b/c they are hers) and own your own...not with an agenda, not with pursuit -but with respect for HER boundaries...which you are violating throughout.
Do you know what I mean ^^here?but I wanted her to let me
prove it through my actions. I
asked her to give me one week
to show her I was serious, and she said she didn't need a week. She is just done. I was devastated.
Just prove it anyhow. No promises and no "look at my actions/give me time to show you - again---OR I'll punish you!"
Just become a man only a fool would leave.
We had another major fight, and didn't get to bed until late.
back off big time. And please, PLEASE respect her stated wishes and stop pursuing her. She needs, at a minimum, space. I don't always say that, btw. But the more you push, the more you push her away...
HEY, put on a helmet now b/c this 2 x 4 will hurt a bit. But I have to say it to reach you okay?
To me, a lot of the way you keep coming on strong with carrots and sticks (your carrots are promises and your sticks are threats) it's coming off to me like a form of bullying.
You bludgeon her with your wants...
But this reads as if you are following her and not letting her breathe. One minute you pretend to let her go - only to try and extract a promise from her the next minute,
then threaten to leave the house/kids IF she files for divorce, (how would that help your cause at all??) and
then you issue another "boundary" of yours. It's mega pursuit, extreme inconsistency and a whole whole lot of control. Sorry...
You need to do the math of 180s...no talk about them.
"small consistent changes + sufficient time = change she can believe.
I didn't sleep hardly at all. She still wanted to ride together to counseling and for the first time in this entire sitch we took the entire car ride without me saying a word or even looking in her general direction. I couldn't bear to speak to her or look at her.
My emotions were so strong I didn't know if I would break down and cry or scream at her. I knew I needed to wait until we were with the counselor so he could help me.
Here's a thought I read on someone else's thread...
Ever wonder if you cannot control your own emotions, how you can order her to control hers with OM?Once in the counselor's office I didn't compose myself near as well as I wanted to. I
started to lose my temper and raise my voice, and our MC smartly asked her to wait in the lobby so we could talk one on one.
Runrec, you do know how "attractive" this^^^ is, right? I was VERY angry at my h 10 years ago (and I am again now!) But I learned 2 things that are so valuable...
1) my anger was totally ineffective in getting h to change. In fact I think he hid more secrets from me...it fueled his negative images of me...
AND
2) my anger consumed ME, and it made me sick. Someone said that holding onto anger to punish someone is like lighting yourself on fire,
to get smoke in their eyes.
In your case it's the opposite of what you need to be doing asap.
He calmed me down, worked some magic, and we were able to bring the W back in. I gave what was probably the most magical speech I've ever given to her. I explained to her how sorry I was and how
these emotions over losing her can cause me to lose control,
Very glad the speech was a 180 for you, and yet I'm nitpicking as a reminder, okay?...
YOU are in charge of your emotional outburst, not her. Make sense?and I'll never give up on us being in love again but either way she'll always mean everything to me even as a friend. I don't recall my exact wording but she ended up in tears (the good kind) and said she completely understands and forgives me. I explained to her and the MC how I understand how she feels, and I'm not saying she's wrong to feel that way.
My only reason for being apprehensive is that we're only 3 months from the BD, and I have spent the entire 3 months in varying stages of desperate pursuit and have given her absolutely no room to breathe or think.
I proposed a trial separation. I told her I would head out of state to stay with my parents. My dad owns his own business and actually is desperate for some help right now, so I can go stay with them rent free and get paid far more than I'm making now to work for him. This would relieve some of our financial burdens, give me a safe emotional place to work on my 180's and GAL stuff, and give her a break from me. This would also give her a trial run of what life as a single mom is going to look like without me available to help.
I proposed one month, but the kids are in school until June 26th and ultimately unless she asks me to come back sooner I'm going to plan on 6 weeks so I can fly back the week before they are out of school.
I've already let her know if she moves forward with the D I will be moving out of state permanently. I'm going to give her full custody of the kids, and I'll take them for summers and we'll switch up holidays year to year (if I remain out of state).
WHOAH....SLOW DOWN////OMG why are you deciding these things now??
What is your goal? Capitulation?
To teach her a lesson?? Man, I think this approach is so so going to backfire on you.
let life teach her a "lesson" - it's not your job.
Plus you are giving away time with your kids and leaving the home.
Have you spoken to a lawyer?
This will be another wakeup call
Wow, so yes you are trying to teach her a lesson with your "wake up call". Good luck there...why wouldn't she just manage without you and not see any of your changes?
The 6 week break was maybe a good idea (b/c you have trouble containing yourself)
but why on earth THEN decide "yes/no"?? Instead, You could move back in and then with actions (not words) demonstrate your changes, and become the man you were meant to be...and who she always wanted...how about THAT approach??
if she decides when I come back that she wants to move forward with the D,
she will have to wrap her head around not seeing the kids for the whole summer. She's never been away from them for more than a week or two at a time.
This^^ to me, seems totally utterly controlling and punitive on your end. Not to mention ignoring what is best for the kids. Not attractive.
How are you going to care for them the whole summer? And she gets them for the harder part, the school year?
You don't think the kids or she will have any problems taking them away from their friends and neighborhoods 
and then sticking her with the responsible side of parenting while you get the vacation part?While I absolutely don't want to be separated, I honestly think this is my personal
last resort technique.
Last resort is when you have tried all the other approaches which you have not done for more than a day. You must give an approach time and consistency and THEN monitor for results. You need to read the DB book again and not skim.
Not to mention this plan is not last resort, it's all about manipulation. You are not dropping the rope or detaching
you are trying to maneuver the outcome...
I wasn't handling the in house separation in a way that was attracting her back,
true...
but instead of fleeing and threatening that she MUST want you back (as you are now) or suffer the consequences along with the kids,
you could spend the time becoming a different better man and THEN showing her...
so this should help me to truly detach and focus on myself.
She'll either miss me and decide she wants to try again, or be validated in her desire to be divorced.
Way too simplifying. And To me this^^^ means you don't have to DO anything new or different (b/c you know, its too hard),
so you just leave and hope she'll "see the error of her ways" --b/c why? Money and housework??
I just don't see how this makes you look like a better husband for her.
If it's about how fun a dad you are, um...maybe...??? But most Disneyland dads are resented by working moms.
look, I just don't think you'll get the long term results you seek with this...I told her that at the end of this trial period I'm not asking her to commit to the marriage.
If she commits to counseling to save the marriage, I will move back home.
so you are not asking her to commit BUT I won't move back if she doesn't...
More conditions of yours....RunRec ^^^ this is so NOT last resort...Runrec, please consider hiring a DB coach. I found them very specific and detailed and quite helpful.
while I am now divorcing, I know my DB coach was a Godsend - and she helped me extend my m by a decade. She helped be become a better wife and mother too. I'm happier with myself b/c of this approach.
(My main mistakes were in Not piecing correctly, as I saw reconciliation as the "win", which its' not).
But you are simply not really letting the DB approach sink in. This all reeks of tactical strategizing and NOT authentic change in you, which will take months...
DIG DEEPER and realize the hardest journey in life is an inward one. It's the bravest journey. I also told her that the 4-6 weeks isn't a deadline. If she's not ready to make a decision in late June we can extend the trial separation
but I will be bringing the boys back with me if we're still undecided. So there it is. I'd love any advice I can get, or being pointed to any resources on how to handle this next phase of my sitch. My thinking is to 100% stop initiating any contact that doesn't directly relate to the kids. I'll be cordial, but short on words if and when she contacts me for anything unrelated to the kids.
I will absolutely refuse any talks abou the MR. If she starts trying to talk about the R (very long odds), I have considered just politely telling her that I don't think it's good for us to discuss the R outside of counseling so if she'd like to get started with MC again I can make arrangements to come back early.
It will be SUPER easy for me to do GAL stuff because my hometown has more friends and cheap accessible activities than where I'm at now by a wide margin.
I'll be sure to post about all the exciting GAL activities I'm up to on Facebook. That way if any interested parties are concerned I'm shriveled up somewhere in a ball, they'll have proof to the contrary!
At my age, I think this ^^ fb thing is high school stuff, and most DBers block their spouses. FB is (mostly) a series of high light reels that reflect only the best in lives, or avenues for stalking.
why not Just let her know of the family time (via the conversations with the kids perhaps??)
OR call and let her know what you've been doing with pleasant upbeat conversations that inquire about her day, and LISTEN acvitiely to her like the friend you want her to miss and do a ton of 180s...?
Limit the talks to 10 min unless she extends, always be the one to get off first, and be upbeat with a PMA and if you must ACT LIKE AN OSCAR WINNER...
PLEASE hire a DB coach because truly, somehow I feel like the plan you have is 75% the opposite of what would help in your situation.
Maybe that's just meAny encouragement in the form of success stories after similar situations (WAS, infidelity, trial sep) would be much appreciated. I'm trying hard to keep my faith in God, and keep a PMA about our long term relationship prospects. Like MWD says, it's not over until it's over! She didn't file!
the success stories here do usually involve affairs, or WAS, but not all.
Success stories do exist. For a long time I was one of them. Regardless my time line for recon was 2 years, so was Bluewaves, and LITB's, and I think Sandi's as well, if I'm not mistaken.
so I can say no one solves these things in weeks. Your time line expectations are unrealistic imo
None of us is comfortable with uncertainty. But when you try to force certainty before it's time, usually you force the very result you do NOT want.
Runrec,
I say your best option is to go with what 25yearsmlc is saying. Clearly she has a full grasp of what your W is probably thinking. The hardest part is that what your currently trying is what society often times would push us to do. So I understand your logic. But it simply isn't going to work, because there are clearly levels that most people, especially us men never really even consider. Because these are things that are never discussed or even talked about.
Last couple of months, I have been extremely patient with my own W with a few setbacks due to feeling disrespected with her being in contact with OM. And it got to the point prior to discovering DB'ing to just leave it alone, making changes to myself and perhaps that would change the way she see's things. Hell, even this morning I was considering confronting my W about possibly being in contact with OM again. Glad I decided to think about that decision for 24 hours. Then opted to just let it go after just 10 hours of thinking, due to realizing that conversation would help nothing out. And here I was feeling like I had gotten too soft, until I read 25yearsmlc responses due you.
So I want to thank her for inspiring me to stay on the current path. Any help she could give me on my own situation from perspective would be very much appreciated. RunRec I suggest you do the same. Also you need to remember your W will test you, just when you think things are going great. It either has to do with trying to figure out if you've really changed or to make themselves feel better about leaving you.
PLEASE talk to a lawyer before just moving out of state. I worry if you just head off that you could be seen as abandoning them (regardless of your actual intent) and just because your W verbally agrees to you having them for the summer....doesnt mean that she will sing the same tune in a few months/years when thats put to the judge to decide. If she says that you just left, do you really think youll get custody for months at a time?
25YearsMLC I'll be back to respond more in depth to your post later today or tomorrow when I have more time. The short version is I have some clarifying to do on a few points from my perspective (i.e. my focus on the affair has been internalized, I have not been lording it over her at all) but overall I agree with the majority of what you have to say. I've not handled the sitch well because I am scared and acting emotionally. The good news is that I have 6 weeks now to give her space and when we meet up again I can come to the table with newfound understanding and clarity.
Kaizen, we came to a mutual agreement on me leaving the state for the trial separation and we came to that agreement with our MC who is also going to act as our divorce mediator should we decide to file. We are not using a lawyer at any point in this process. My tone comes off as combative, but in all honesty we have been completely amicable in this situation. This morning she cooked me breakfast and we had coffee together and watched Good Morning America. We both care deeply for each other, but the marriage is shattered and we both have different agendas on what to do about it. We're not trying to hurt each other.
The only reason I'm leaving the state isn't to punish her or hurt her, it's because we cannot financially afford a second residence. My parents live out of state, so that's where I'm going and it will be short term. After reading and reflecting on what 25YearsMLC had to say, I agree I'm acting emotionally and defensively by telling her if we don't start counseling I'll move away semi-permanently. I'd like to give her space, and when I return in 6 weeks let her know the last thing I want to do is put distance between me and her, me and the kids, or her and the kids and that we should try and figure out a way for us both to get what we need and go from there. I have plenty of time to reflect on that, no need to get too far ahead of myself, but for now just focus on PMA/GAL/180's and keeping things as good as possible between the W and I.
We both care deeply for each other, but the marriage is shattered and we both have different agendas on what to do about it. We're not trying to hurt each other.
Yes, I get what youre saying. And believe me, I hope that for everyone's sake, this can continue. But Ive been around here for a while and seen too many stories where one person leaves and the door slams shut behind them.
All Im saying is that if you are going to be away for 6 weeks leaving W in full custody, I would get something DOCUMENTED that explains the long term plan.
Just because you 'arent trying to hurt each other' now, doesnt mean it will be the same in a week, a month, or 6 months down the line. Protect yourself and your relationship with your children.
I appreciate the concern, and if things appear to change in the future I will consider what you're saying. At this point we have our MC who is also our divorce mediator should we go that route. We're taking a trial separation as a break, no paperwork of any kind filed and no decisions made. I'm not "leaving", just giving her space, and she's aware that I'm on a one way ticket so I can come back at any point should things change.
I don't want to contact a lawyer, as 25YearsMLC has pointed out I've been very combative using leverage and ultimatums and shading on bullying. We've agreed to keep lawyers out of it and mediate with our MC if we go that direction, so going against that and contacting a lawyer would be another act of aggression. Something I desperately need to 180 away from.
I appreciate the concern, and if things appear to change in the future I will consider what you're saying.
You can do that. Like I said, Im worried that by the time 'things change', it will be too late. It will be your word against hers, and theres not a 0% chance that it will be the one who is staying in the home with the kids that will be the "tiebreaker".
We're taking a trial separation as a break, no paperwork of any kind filed and no decisions made. I'm not "leaving", just giving her space, and she's aware that I'm on a one way ticket so I can come back at any point should things change.
Again, this is all well and good
right now. I understand this is a trial separation, and Im not suggesting you need to file something with the government.
I don't want to contact a lawyer
I would strongly advise that you do. I think it's important that you understand your rights. You dont have to tell your W, and most will give you a free consultation. This is for you to be educated on what pitfalls to avoid.
so going against that and contacting a lawyer would be another act of aggression. Something I desperately need to 180 away from.
I agree that you need to 180 away from being overly aggressive. I completely disagree that protecting your rights as a parent is an act of aggression. Protecting yourself is not attacking her.
Id advise you to read the postings by BEClem. He left for 6 months on a trial separation and never was able to move back in the house. I believe in the end he lost tons of parenting rights as well. Just saying; Ive seen too many people have the rugs pulled out from under them and Id hate for you to be added to the list.
Kaizen is right. In the law we have two principles. One is yes, we like written contracts. The other is that if someone is silent where there is a duty to speak certain presumptions can be made. At the very least document it with a kind and business-like email, only on the one topic (if you ever have to introduce it in court you don't want to deal with all the other garbage that could be in there).
Dear Wife,
Thank you for our discussion of ________ in which we agreed that I will be going to stay with my parents for 6 weeks to give some time for us to each have space and for me to able to make some additional money. As we discussed, I will be returning to the house at the end of the 6 weeks. I hope this will give us both some time to work on ourselves and reflect on our situation.
You can be less formal if you want, but you get the gist.
Just curious, as I'm starting to come around on the idea of lawyering/protecting myself/seeking custody of my children: would a text message be sufficient or would it need to be an email? I ask because my wife and I never communicate via email, so a text message like that wouldn't really raise any red flags. An email, she'd definitely be suspicious why I'm emailing basically proof of our discussion.
Email is preferrable. Why don't you want her to know you are documenting it. I would think that would be a good thing. If she doesn't raise a flag now it will be harder for her to do so later on. If she is going to try to raise it as an issue, best to know now before you go.
Hi runrec,
I just skimmed through this so i apologize in advance if I end up making any unfair assumptions...
You have a 9 and 11 year old? What is in their best interest right now? Is their any family social workers or counselors that can offer you advise on how to proceed. Will you be visiting them every weekend after your move? What are you doing right now to meet their needs, during this very tumultuous time.
You mentioned you wanted your wife to see what it was like living like a single mom. Well, She probably has already if you had an addiction issue.
You mentioned that you wanted her to consider what it would be like missing out on them for the entire summer....to be honest, that comment really did not sit well with me. No mother wants to be separated from their kids because dad is capable of leaving state permanently to make his life easier. And that is in no way ideal for kids. The way you posted that here, to me doesn't sit well. It sounded more punitive then anything else.