old thread:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2704478&page=11Here is my last post from the previous thread:
OK, need some advice from vets and anyone else.
I went and picked up docs from the deposition from my L.
Had a brief discussion again with my L and she thinks this will not go to trial as it not only looks bad on the parents, it also looks bad on the Ls, and Ls do not want to lose trials.
My L also said she spoke to STBXs L who now sees things differently about the sitch. STBX's L now realized that my L and I are not bad people. STBX's L also said she needs to have a come to Jesus meeting on the reality of STBX's options.
So here are the options the way I see it:
STBX will stay in Toronto and most likely have to work and pay me child support and only see her boys once every couple of months or at most once a month. Live in the house in Canada by herself or not live in it at all.
STBX will have to spend the next 15 years co-parenting here with me and have the boys about 8% of the time more than me.
STBX will want to reconcile, which is a long shot!
STBX's L said that STBX left and went back to Toronto very upset.
How do I handle things if STBX comes back and wants to work on the M again?
JK,
Can you clarify.
When you say options as you see it...
What do you mean?
Is this a list that you made up?
Or something she said?
L's provided this?
I gotta say, this list concerns me all around.......
Can't put my finger on it, but if you would clarify, maybe I can.....
SH
This is a list based off of what I know and have learned from events this week.
We received the psych eval back and went through depositions and these are the possible options that I see happening.
How do I handle things if STBX comes back and wants to work on the M again?
Bottom line, this ^^^^^^^^ is what you want to know, right?
I don't know that I can give an unbiased answer. If she was humble about it and take responsibility what she has done to you and the kids........and was serious about family therapy, IDK, I'd still have doubts. B/c I don't think she would be returning to you and the MR. The only reason she would return is so that she won't have to work and can stay with the boys........until the youngest gets older.
Outside of a miracle changing her heart, I would be leery that she would make your life hell (hotter than ever) once she moved back. She doesn't like losing. Her feelings for you have not changed, and she is still a wayward woman.
If the two of you, and then with the kids, received intense family therapy.............
before moving in together...........and you have a chance to see if your W is even trying to change.........then maybe you would be in a better place to decide.
IMHO, you should not allow her to move back into your house if you are divorce. She can find a place to live there, and get a job to support herself. I mean, she might try to be nice for a few days, but I think she would be horrible to you. However, this is your life and your decision.
BTW, I hope she's been told she could not remain a SAHM and you support her?
Jim, what do you really want? Never mind, I know the answer. Let me ask which option do you want, if you knew WW's attitude would not change? Do you want to stay under the same roof with her?
Jim, there is a difference between coming back, and coming back and working on the M again.
Do you think she would just be coming back so she could be with her kids and not have to work, or would she really want to truly work on the M?
Her coming home because she is backed into a corner does not constitute working on your M.
I have the same worries the others do.
J...
First off, I agree with Sandi...
Secondly, Try not to pre-decide how you will feel or do something before it presents itself in reality...
What you are hearing, and reading, is only a path to the decision that will ultimately be made...
Chances are, what will eventually happen, will fall somewhere in between a couple of those things....
Or maybe none of them...
So don't decide, until it is time to decide...
You have to find your answer in this...
What YOU want, and how you will handle it.
For her ?
This is going to be a very emotional time for her, reaping what she has sewn, actually having to "own" her decisions....
Keep your focus on what is best for the kids, and try not to buy into anything that sounds out of the ordinary.
And read Sandi and Ginger's posts about a hundred times....
Mach, Sandi, Ginger,
Thank you for the responses.
Mach,
Agree, will not pre-decide before it presents itself.
Agree she will have to put her big girl pants on now. Ball is in her court.
Sandi,
LOL! You know me too well...yes, I want my M back and clearly understand it will be different. It has to be for both of us, that is the reality.
I will have certain needs that need to be met though and if we cannot agree then it is not worth the move there.
I did find a Gottman certified MC in Toronto and will request that she agree to go to MC prior to the move.
I will not split the boys up. If we move, we move into the new house together. I have no issue going there so she can have visits with the boys and she and I start to date and rebuild the R.
Transparency will be required also, no lying from either of us.
Not sure what her L will tell her but even if we did move up there and D'd there later, I know for a fact she has no plan (budget) on how she will survive.
My L asked her during the dep what her budget was if she were to receive custody and she had no idea. She stated her parents were going to gift the house and she was going to buy a car with the money she received from the D but had no idea how much money she would get.
She had no documentation on restrictions to work either. All of this is in her head.
When I was in court on Wednesday, I saw 4 cases go in front of the judge and there were 3 cases where the mom's stated they were SAHMs and had no job. Judge had no sympathy for them and told each one of them to get a job, not for the sake of getting a job but for the sake of the children to live and sustain the lifestyle they know.
Ginger,
As Mach stated, I don't know and can't predict. If she does want to discuss, the only way I will be able to know is by the tone of her voice and looking at her face to face to see if she is truly remorseful. Is there a risk, absolutely!
My DB coach said that if I let fear control my actions though, I will not be able to have a healthy R with STBX so from that POV, I will have to take a chance also. I took that chance once when I first met STBX, no reason I cannot take it again. Letting go of the fear creates courage.
I will have to take some advice I posted on another thread.
I am confident I can control my emotions now. I need to go into this like I am partnering up for running a business, no expectation on emotional connection, that will have to come at a later time. STBX and I will have to come to an agreement. An agreement means that I will hold myself accountable for abiding by the agreement and STBX will hold herself accountable. Only then will there be an opportunity to move forward in a positive direction.
I cannot control the reason why she would want to come back and do realize that one or both of us may slip, but I cannot let that stop me from continuing to work on myself and take care of the boys.
Jim, considering trying to make the M work is one thing, but as soon as you talk about moving to Toronto, I have to ask . . . Have you lost your mind?!
(And I mean that as nicely as possible.)
Nothing against Toronto, but hasn't it been established that the court system there is biased toward SAHMs? Why would risk custody?
JK,
My friend...I am sorry but either I am completely misunderstanding what you say here or I am starting to believe that as Rose states very nicely that you may have lost your mind........
The thought that comes to mind is,
Fool me once shame on you....
Fool me twice, shame on me...
Fool me thrice......wtf?!?!?!?
Jim, I really hope I am misreading all of this because I see you say you agree with Mach,sandi, and ginger, yet you are researching how to move to Toronto?????
SMH
Rose, SH,
I don't see it as risking custody. As it stands I would have them 8% less if STBX decides to co-parent here.
If she decides to stay in TO and continues to resent me then I am sure I would have something like 90% custody.
If she says she wants to reconcile, she and I have a lot of work to do to ensure there is trust. I do not want to guess or speculate anymore, so will heed Mach's advice and address the issue when it is presented to me.
At this point I have no expectations on what the outcome will be. We have mediation on the 27th. If we cannot agree on things after mediation, I guess we go to trial.
JK-
I totally understand the pull to the reconcile option and have heard it in your "voice/posts" for a while now
I would ask you this hard question that you can only answer " Do you want HER" or do you want "the family back together"
I ask only becuz I have asked myself the same question over and over and I don't have 5 kids! only 1. I gravitated towards wanting her back when the door was open a bit but I wans't being honest with myself. Reality was I wanted the family back and only her if I hit the time maichine and zapped her back 7+ years which ain't happening
Pls dont get yourself into a harder situation without being honest with yourself. If it is her , then go with it and just protect yourself but I would take such babysteps that you don't move anywhere and do it on your terms only
Take a 1/2 step validate, see how she is for a while then take another baby step. rinse repeat
You make me nervous when you start talking like this, Jim.
When you said something about her possibly wanting to R, I didn't know it meant you would move up there.
My DB coach said that if I let fear control my actions though, I will not be able to have a healthy R with STBX so from that POV, I will have to take a chance also. I took that chance once when I first met STBX, no reason I cannot take it again. Letting go of the fear creates courage.
I agree about letting go of the fear, but what you've stated about taking a chance when you first met....and
now, sounds a little whacky. Things were much different before you M and adopted 5 kids. You said yourself that she is NOTHING like the girl you M. So, I say whenever a person has been treated the way she's treated you......don't take too many chances the second time around.
I will have certain needs that need to be met though and if we cannot agree then it is not worth the move there.
Be careful about making any "deals" with her.
Not sure what her L will tell her but even if we did move up there and D'd there later, I know for a fact she has no plan (budget) on how she will survive.
You can't R, just to rescue her.
I don't even know how to respond anymore. I am truly touched by everyones concern for my well being and the boys well being.
I guess I just need to wait and see as Mach1 said.
How do you piece your M back if one continues to doubt their S?
Am I missing something?
I have read on others threads who jave started to piece and understand that ot is probably more difficult than working on you.
I guess I was looking for guidance so I dont do what I did in the past and act right away from my emotions. That is partially what got me here in the first place.
I think what you are missing is how very far away your wife is from being where she needs to be for you to even think about piecing. And how bad it could be for your boys if you try to piece before she is truly ready.
If I were a man in your shoes and your wife asked to call off the divorce so we could work on the relationship, I would insist on following through with a legal separation agreement that specified the following:
* separate residences in the same town in the United States
* 50-50 custody
* she has to get a job working at least 20 hours a week
* she has to see an individual counselor weekly
* the two of you see a marriage counselor weekly
* reevaluate in a year
You need to legally protect yourself and your boys.
I think what everyone is saying is don't jump from where you are now to piecing, or even thinking of piecing. There is a lot in between. Your posts seem like you are looking too far down the road when there are a lot of landmines, potholes, construction, detours, etc. directly in front of you.
And I forgot the road rage from the other driver.
Ah! Ok, now I understand. Well Rose I can say that her living here will never happen again.
The most likely scenario will be she stays in TO and the boys and I stay in Michigan.
So we beat my post to a pulp now. I will stick to Mach's advice and just wait and see.
Please don't make my mistake and allow your spouse back too quickly when/if she says she wants to piece. Watch the actions and not the words, otherwise you'll be stuck in this yo-yo ride that I am on with my spouse saying he wants to piece but in reality he is still WAS/WH. To piece both parties need to be 100% vested in repairing and rebuilding the marriage.
STBX calls yesterday evening and talks to the boys around 7pm.
The boys were playing on the playground outside and I went and gave them the phone. S4 did not want to speak with mommy.
She could hear me asking S4 to come to the phone but I was not going to force the little guy to talk if he did not want to. I tried 3 times to get him to hold the phone and he kept saying he is busy playing.
After I told her S4 is being difficult, she started to get short with me and said give him the phone and just have him listen so I can speak with him, I have not spoken to him the last two times (S4 does not really have any interest in living with STBX).
He finally came close enough where I handed him the phone and he said hello to her and then said I am busy, but I asked him to just listen to what mommy has to say quickly.
I know this may be a small thing, but STBX's tone changes quickly with me. She could hear me ask S4 3 times to come and speak with mom and each time she wants to continue to command me to do something. Well you know what, next time I need to address the issue differently with her because it is not my fault she does not call everyday and keep a bond with her kids. I will try once or twice, but if I start to hear that tone change in her voice I am going to politely tell her I made the effort and kindly say goodbye or come up with a better response to validate her feelings.
One more thing that is a positive for me and soon to be S8.
One of the boys mentions divorce again and my oldest sad daddy forgives mommy for her bad choices but mom wont forgive dad, we forgive dad, i don'know know why. Its too bad she won't.
Once he was done I changed the subject because I know how much it bothers him.
It made me kind of feel closer to him which has been a bit of a struggle. I also notice he smiles more when I hig and kiss him when I put him to bed at night.
STBX calls yesterday evening and talks to the boys around 7pm.
The boys were playing on the playground outside and I went and gave them the phone. S4 did not want to speak with mommy.
She could hear me asking S4 to come to the phone but I was not going to force the little guy to talk if he did not want to. I tried 3 times to get him to hold the phone and he kept saying he is busy playing.
After I told her S4 is being difficult, she started to get short with me and said give him the phone and just have him listen so I can speak with him, I have not spoken to him the last two times (S4 does not really have any interest in living with STBX).
He finally came close enough where I handed him the phone and he said hello to her and then said I am busy, but I asked him to just listen to what mommy has to say quickly.
I know this may be a small thing, but STBX's tone changes quickly with me. She could hear me ask S4 3 times to come and speak with mom and each time she wants to continue to command me to do something. Well you know what, next time I need to address the issue differently with her because it is not my fault she does not call everyday and keep a bond with her kids. I will try once or twice, but if I start to hear that tone change in her voice I am going to politely tell her I made the effort and kindly say goodbye or come up with a better response to validate her feelings.
JK you defintely should not allow her to jump on you for S4 not wanting to speak with her. You also probably should not force S4 to speak with her if he does not want to. Maybe it's worthwhile to talk to S4 and see if you can pinpoint exactly why he doesn't want to talk to mommy.
I'd offer you give your W a warning about it next time she gets on you. If she does it again then maybe you politely say I'll speak with you later, goodbye and then hang up. Just my 2 cents, but I think something like that would change her behavior towards you.
Hang in there JK! That's awesome that you and S8 are becoming closer by the way!
Why did you over extend yourself and put the pressure on your S4 to talk to her? Did you feel it was the right thing at the time? Or were you scare of upsetting W and her reaction if she did not get her way? It was like the change in her tone of voice scared you.
A 4 year old playing on a playground wants to talk to stop to talk on the phone for no one! Your W was being selfish and angry because she was not getting what she wanted.
Don't go out of the way for her anymore. Don't let her scare you.
Why did you over extend yourself and put the pressure on your S4 to talk to her? Did you feel it was the right thing at the time? Or were you scare of upsetting W and her reaction if she did not get her way? It was like the change in her tone of voice scared you.
A 4 year old playing on a playground wants to talk to stop to talk on the phone for no one! Your W was being selfish and angry because she was not getting what she wanted.
Don't go out of the way for her anymore. Don't let her scare you.
This. 100%. I used to be this way with W and know this feeling. It still creeps in for me at times. JK, if this is the case know that you have control over this and don't have to appease her. It gets better if you don't.
I'm not entirely sure if I agree with this. It seems like there should be the expectation that the kids have to at least listen to he noncustodial parent.
We're not talking about a teen. He's 4.
The expectation for a 4 yea old to stop playing on a playground is a little too old for 4 . A teen should be able to that. 4 year olds barely grasp the concept of the phone. Stopping to play to talk through this thing where I just hear a voice I feel isn't reasonable to force. Pick up your toys when you are done playing? On their level of listening and obeying. A concept they can grasp.
I've been doing this raising a kid thing through divorce since 6 months old. Often my daughter never wanted to talk on the phone to either of us. I asked my IC about it. She said it isn't reasonable to expect a child of that age to want to talk on the phone because it is not visual and cannot grasp their attention. They don't quite understand it. So neither of forced her to talk to us. Once in a while she would say "hi" then get distracted by something visual or tactile.
This wasn't about having a kid " obey"
I do however, agree a kid needs to listen to and respect both parents no matter whose house they are at . But not for selfish reasons.
The expectation for a 4 yea old to stop playing on a playground is a little too old for 4 . A teen should be able to that. 4 year olds barely grasp the concept of the phone. Stopping to play to talk through this thing where I just hear a voice I feel isn't reasonable to force. Pick up your toys when you are done playing? On their level of listening and obeying. A concept they can grasp.
I've been doing this raising a kid thing through divorce since 6 months old. Often my daughter never wanted to talk on the phone to either of us. I asked my IC about it. She said it isn't reasonable to expect a child of that age to want to talk on the phone because it is not visual and cannot grasp their attention. They don't quite understand it. So neither of forced her to talk to us. Once in a while she would say "hi" then get distracted by something visual or tactile.
This wasn't about having a kid " obey"
Everything you say makes sense. And you certainly have more experience parenting in this situation.
On the other hand, it sounds like these boys might be heading into a very uneven custody arrangement (not unfair, just with longer stretches between time with mom).
If the child repeatedly chooses not totals on the phone, I worry it will create a downward spiral in the relationship with that parent.
Am I placing too much importance on the phone calls?
Well, it all sort of depends on what the custody arrangement will be. The phone calls are more for the parents than the kids. For instance, my D9 is with me most of the time. She rarely asks to call her dad, rarely does on her own her I pad. She has her own access to FaceTime. He rarely calls her on his off days.
My Longest my D and I go apart is Friday night to Monday night. Sometimes she calls me, sometimes she doesn't, but I don't call her because that's the time where she is focused on being at dad's house. And when she is there, even though she doest speak to him when she's not, she's living the life she has at her dads . I find it doesn't affect their R.
I honestly think what is better for the bond with their parenting time is to be engaged with the parent they are with. Putting pressure on them to speak with the other parent makes them feel guilty when they just want to be in the moment and live their little kid lives. The downward spiral happens when they are forced into a phone call. Especially at that age.
If phone call time is important, it needs to be set up where the kids aren't engaged in other activities. But it is hard to adhere to a schedule like that, because little kid lives are happening and they are really only aware of what's around them and what they are currently engaged in.
on the other hand, I think a parent who teaches out to call shows that they are there for them. that reassurance, even if they don't want to talk, is comforting to them. But the pressure when they don't want to is stressful
lt, Ginger, Rose,
STBX does not have a set time that she calls. Normally she will text earlier in the day and ask what time to call. So the whole thing was a bit of a surprise.
I always make an effort to ensure that all the boys talk to her. I did not try to force S4 until after STBX became snippy. I should have just politely said that is not acceptable to speak to me like that and should have hung up the phone with a polite goodbye.
I did not try to force S4 because I was scared of her, although it may seem like that. I want S4 to have a connection with his mom. I should look at it differently though, since she is the one that left and wants the D, I should have stated to her that she cannot just call when she wants and disrupt their lives and that we should agree upon a set time if she would like to speak with them.
Honestly, the boys have not really mentioned that they miss mom since school started. They do bring her up every once in a while but the talks about her are very brief.
The kids are probably reacting in a variety of ways - individually, based on their age and emotional profile. It sounds like you are doing a really good job with them.
A practical suggestion - can you turn on video chat with WH so the boys can see her and she can see them? If you do, they may come over to the phone.
Jim, don't get me wrong, you are navigating these choppy waters better than can be expected.
I do detect a bit of wanting to please W..... But I do admire you wanting to try to keep th connection between her and the kids. It that is not fully on you, although you should not hinder it, of course.
Painter made an excellent suggestion. Video chatting works on their level. They can put the voice to the face and interact.
Like I had said, when my D9 is occupied, she rarely "misses" the other parent anymore. She engaged in that part of her life. Which is healthy. Your kids are in school with their peers and pretty occupied.
Just like us. When we GAL we don't think of those we miss as much. However, it doesn't mean we forget them or don't love them.
Painter,
STBX did ask about facetiming with the boys when she and I had a brief talk labor day weekend. She has not brought it up since. We used to do that in the past. I have no issue with them video chatting, STBX just needs to request how many times per week she would like to and what time.
Ginger,
Yes, there is a little bit of still wanting to please. Not sure how to be friends with her, but with everything I have experienced she still has a tone of no respect for me so I guess I just need to let it go.
I took the boys to another festival today and they had a blast. We came home about 7 pm and had dinner at 7:30. STBX calls out of the blue and asks to speak with the boys. I could hear background noise and it sounded like she was at a restaurant. I answered the phone in a happy cheerful voice and of course she sounded like she was sulking. She spoke to all 5 longer than normal, even told them she is coming this week to visit with them to celebrate S7 and S8's birthdays. When the last boy was done speaking with her I just hung up the phone.
S8 did tell her that I made homemade breakfast burrito's. I chuckled when I heard him tell her. I have never done that before and want them to have a breakfast they can take in the car if we are ever running behind for school. I put eggs, bacon, red peppers and Mexican mix cheese in them. S8 even told her that I made one for S2 with no eggs since he is allergic to eggs.
Overall the weekend was fun with the boys and this week should be fairly routine.
I hope everyone has a great start to their week.
Sleeping pattern has changed again. Waking up in the middle of the night, this morning it was 2 am so I decided to journal a bit.
Boys loved the breakfast sandwiches I made. I had a decent day at work and a nice evening with the kids, not a whole lot of fuss today with them which was nice.
As I was tucking them into bed, S4 gave me extra long hugs. I then went to hug S6. S4 starts to rehash the past, he talked about how mommy was unhappy because I wasn't nice to her and she wants a D. He also described how she broke my heart by leaving me and that she broke my heart in two and how I was sad and crying a lot and that mommy did not like that I cried a lot, and on and on and on.
I was so amazed at how much information he was sharing. I redirected a bit and said that daddy is no longer sad and that he still loves mommy and that both mommy and daddy love him and his brothers. I told him that everything will be fine and that he should not worry about mommy and daddy. I gave him another hug and kissed him goodnight.
I love these boys! Our relationship and bond is growing between the 6 of us and I am loving every minute of it.
Not trying to go negative here at the end of this post, but I was told that trial would cost anywhere from $40 to 60K. I do not think STBX realizes that she would be crippling the family if she pushes this to trial. I pray every night that someone or something will somehow be able to communicate to her the financial impact this will have on her and our family. I continue to pray that her L stating she will have a conversation with her about the reality of things or that mediation will be the wake up call.
STBX calls yesterday at 6:30 to speak with the boys. They were on the playground but they all spoke with her. When I answered the phone I was happy and had a soft voice like I was glad that she called. I could sense resentment still on her end and that she was not feeling well. She just said can I speak to my boys please. After the last one was done speaking with her, her voice sounded much more calm. She thanked me and I wished her a good evening and hung up.
This morning she sends a text asking if I would meet MIL halfway so she can spend time with the boys. She stated she has a bladder infection that is affecting her J Pouch and cannot come to do her parenting time in Michigan. I have not responded yet until I speak with my L, but I cannot meet halfway because I have my sister's engagement party Friday so MIL will have to come here. STBX also would like her family to celebrate S7 and S8s birthdays this weekend. Her parenting time is supposed to be here and I agreed with the her L also that I would pay for the hotel. This woman is stubborn! Her monkeys her circus.
You could always ask for a doctor's confirmation about the bladder infection. She has lied to you so much, you can't trust her word.
It is important that you show cooperation and willingness to give the kids access to immediate and extended family. As a rule, courts award custody to the parent who is best able to give the kids access to the other parent and family, because they see that person as the best facilitator who should be in charge.
But your reference indicates that she has battled severe health issues for a long time? There are nutritional issues that can come up in connection with digestive disorders that can impact the emotional balance, and not all doctors are good at understanding how critical these nutrients are and how they can be supplemented...
Painter,
As always you are a wealth of knowledge. Technically STBX should be getting her J pouched checked out once a year. She has not done it since I have known her. I do not know if she is eating well or eating at all. She is a healthy person overall.
I spoke with my L and she thinks STBX is lying. I do not believe STBX either. My MIL can drive STBX down if required and they can stay in the hotel that I agreed to pay for based on the two L's agreement last week. The referee in court clearly stated STBX needs to come here to co-parent. My L also said that if she does have a bladder infection she should be on antibiotics and not knowing when this started a couple of days should cure the issue.
Yes I can ask for a doctor's confirmation but I know she will not provide that to me.
Todays text with STBX:
STBX: Hi Jim, I was supposed to come down this weekend to see the kids but I have a severe bladder infection and now the antibiotics are making my jpouch inflamed. I haven't seen them in almost a month. Can we please meet halfway (my mom can pick them up) so that they can be here with me. My family also wanted to celebrate S7's' and S8's birthdays too.
Me: Hi STBX. Sorry your J pouch is getting inflamed by the antibiotics, I hope you feel better soon. I already have commitments that cannot be changed and cannot meet halfway.
STBX: That's extremely disappointing but not at all surprising.
Me: I can understand your disappointment. Please check with your lawyer on what the agreement was for this weekend. I would suggest that your mom drive you here so you can spend time with the boys.
STBX: Well I'd like to have the kids come to visit then the weekend of October 7. I'll be in MI for the trial. So I'd like to then bring them back to Canada as it is our thanksgiving that Monday (October 10). We can meet halfway on that Monday to do the exchange after you're done work.
Me: I suggest we discuss this at mediation.
We continue to be at a standstill with every texting conversation. Unreal!
So I text my youngest sister tonight and tell her that I will have the boys and asked if she has room for a table for the 6 of us at her engagement party tomorrow night. She freaks out crying and is upset and says my mother is upset also. I stated I am not coming without my boys and do not plan on hiring a babysitter as she suggested. I offered to come after dinner with the boys which she did not like. She stated dinner would not be done until 9:45 pm or 10pm. I said no problem, will have the boys take a nap and get ready to be there by 10pm so they can have some fun.
This is the same sister that just quit her job and has been living off my father for many years. There were times I asked if she could watch my boys so STBX and I could have a date night when we were going through rough patches, granted it was last minute some of the times I asked but my sister always had an excuse on why she could not watch my kids.
Seriously too much drama for me. I don't hold grudges. I tried to offer an alternative solution that still had me present at her party.
Jim,
I always read your sitch, but don't think I've ever posted... Just wanted to let you know I am here, and envy your strength and your love for your kids. You are right, your sister should recognize the importance of your children to you, and make allowances for their presence to be there with you. Don't hold it against her if she doesn't, she's your sister and you will always love her, but your children come first.
OK, this might be a gender thing, but many, many brides would freak at being asked to add 5 young boys to a sit-down engagement party with what ... 24 hours notice? 48?
Are there going to be any other kids there? Were your boys even invited?
Many many healthy loving families leave kids home for engagement parties. It's your choice to go or not, but I don't think not being able to add the boys says anything about your sister's character.
As for the exchange with your wife, I like the way you handled it. Great job!
(You might want to address Canadian Thanksgiving as well as Canada Day specifically in your custody agreement, along with US holidays, because I can see this being an issue every year.)
I have to agree with Rose. If it upsets your sister, don't take the boys to her engagement party. This should be all about the happy bride & groom. Everyone's attention should be on them........and only them.
((Jim)), it must be difficult to keep life sane, much less.....balanced after all you've been through. I don't know how long it would take you away from the kids, but I think you really should reconsider. There will be a few occasions that should be just for the adults. If you were my brother, I would certainly want you at my engagement party.
Coconut,
Appreciate the kind words. I am not upset with my sister. As with all our WAS's, family is the same way, their monkeys their circus.
Rose, Sandi,
Although sometimes difficult to read, I respect the different POV. It helps me grow and recognize the individuality of others.
Our family always invites children to events. All my nieces and nephews will be there and kids of other friends.
My sister is upset because the plan changed last minute and she can't handle the emotional turmoil this has caused for her. I get it and even though I want to be there, I am choosing to be with my boys and come later to support her and celebrate than to be there for a dinner and the blessing of the rings. I am not upset that she does not have room for them, I am just suggesting a solution that works for both parties, not the best solution but everyone gets something out of it that is positive.
To be brutally honest, I resent my sister for not supporting me in the past when I needed her. I still have resentment towards her but still said yes to attending the engagement party. At one point I had so much resentment I was in a state of mind that I was not even going to go to the wedding. My sister's sense of entitlement is worse than my STBX's sometimes. This is probably why I can put up with a lot of $hit sandwiches from STBX.
Anyway, I have more to say on the Jim vs. STBX front, have to get back to work and will post later.
I dunno, this opinion is a bit different than the others but sometimes entitled folks need boundaries. I guess I feel like this is not a wedding it's an engagement party so what's the big deal? But this may not be a hill you want to die on. Is setting up child care very difficult? I know it was virtually impossible for me until I moved back to my home state so I can commiserate.
Your STBX amazes me that she is so comfortable barely seeing her children.
Well, I didn't know how formal it might be, but it could tension she's feeling.......as a bride and wanting everything to be just perfect.
I'm sorry there is resentment. Hope things get better after her big day and you will be, hopefully, not facing the stuff you've been going through with your W.
The engagement party was fun. Boys had a good time. My sister was happy we made it. We really did not talk much. We arrived around 1045pm. Had the boys take a nap for an hour and a half and then dressed them in their suits. We arrived home at 130 am.
Sandi, I guess it just upsets me when my sister reacts out of control. This happens more than it needs to for no reason at all. She did cry a bit when she saw the boys and I know she was happy they were there. Just tired of knee jerk reactions from my family for little things. That is part of what got me here in the first place also, my knee jerk reaction to my STBX leaving.
Sara,
I try to pick my battles with my family. Not worth the arguments. I probably did not apply that in the past with STBX also, so I am learning. Childcare for 5 boys is tough to find and expensive. I have lots of friends that have offered to watch the boys if needed.
I am actually going to a football game today to meet up with college buddies that I have not seen for at least 15 years. S6's Godparents are going to watch the boys for a few hours.
Not sure what happened but since yesterday I have been sneezing and now have a head cold. It has been rough this morning. Boys can sense I am not feeling well and have offered to help clean the apartment. They are vacuuming and cleaning their rooms and wiping things down with wipes. They are great little men.
Sara,
As far as STBX goes, her last text to me was this: I am sorry this weekend won't work. I would give anything to see them. I am not sure why we cannot come to an agreement about Canadian Thanksgiving weekend but that's fine we can discuss in mediation.
Hey JK,
Just swinging by as I have not dropped in for a bit.
Good to see you and the boys had some fun at the party in spite of some of the pregame drama.
Ugh!! The dreaded fall time cold...
Just trying to shake one myself.
Be sure to care for yourself and squeeze in some rest as it can drag on you a bit...
Kinda stating the obvious there aren't I.
It is good to read a bit more spunk and confidence in your postings of late....
I am proud of those little fellas of yours. It really touches my heart to hear you share how they are helping you out and aware you are feeling a little unwell. I know that feeling and it is priceless.
Have a great my friend.
Aaaaaannnnnnd another change by STBX.
Mediation was/is supposed to be at 1pm today. Her L emails my L and says STBX is sick and is available by phone. My L wants to postpone everything, waiting to hear back from mediator.
I am at a loss for words with what STBX is doing.
So sorry that this is dragging on and on for you and your kiddos, JK.
((((((Jim)))))
Well DB folks, mediation is done.
STBX called in to negotiate and did not even drive down. It took 5 hours to get things completed. Neither of us liked the results for different reasons. It was a very difficult and draining 5 hours but at least we don't have to go to trial.
We addressed custody and financials. It is now sent to the judge for review and should be final in 21 days.
I am sure everyone is curious to know the outcome. I would like to document it first to ensure my wording and sequence of events is correct and share every detail with my internet family.
Although I did not get much sleep last night, I woke up feeling ok today. A new chapter in my book of life has begun.
What was the custody agreement?
Hey JK, just catching up. It's got to feel great to be through the mediation. Hopefully the results are, while not perfect, enough to make you happy. I hope the custody is what you wanted.
Regardless, great work continuing to keep everything stable and positive for you and the boys. It's not easy what you're managing, but you sure do an awesome job at it!
JK= hope the mediation went well especially if this was around custody too
I may have to head down this path myself as my STBX continues to be difficult and lazy
Its an uneasy feeling, I know, with all this up in the air as its unsettling for the future so I hope this gets finalized to your liking so you can start to get closure on some things.
Sara,
I have the boys 2/3 of the year she has them most of the summer.
Well, it has been an emotional week of he//. Mediation is done. Neither of us are happy. Here is the rundown.
I have custody 265 days and she has them 130 days.
The boys visit in Toronto once a month, mostly holiday weekends and STBX and I meet halfway to exchange. She also gets a second weekend each month but she has to do her parenting time in Michigan. My L thinks that will never happen. STBX gets the boys almost all summer. I get them 1 week each month, June, July and August and get 3 weekends each summer but I have to get them from STBX and drop them off again.
She pillaged all of our cash. Took half my 401K, and keeps all the money that I overpaid her family. Mediator said that was cheaper than going to trial and paying spousal support. So I guess I am lucky from that standpoint, no spousal support.
Once L fees are paid and CCs are paid we split the rest of the equity from the home that is in a trust.
In the end, I am left with maybe 30 to 50K in cash and the boys most of the time since they will be in school here.
Mediator asked how we got to the D and I gave him the story, he could not believe it and figured STBX out right away. I told him I still love her and don't want this. My L chimed in also and said that I waited a long time for STBX. Mediator said take a break for a year or two and maybe you can reconcile.
So in the end, STBX will have a house in Canada 9 months out of the year with no one living in it and most of our cash. I have the boys and some cash. STBX has to pay me child support of $50 per month which L says to not even expect her to pay.
I had so many emotions running through me during the mediation, anger, rage, hatred, sadness and I am sure a lot more.
Next day I was somewhat fine, I felt ok even though I did not sleep much. Even the remainder of the week my stomach has been queezy and things just feel off.
So the D should be final in about 3 weeks once the judge reviews the agreement.
I have been thinking a lot over the last few days and have realized my STBX's POV. She will never get a job to support the boys and contribute to their well being financially. No one can force STBX to get a job. So who will be the sole breadwinner for the boys, me.
When I consider things long term, is it better for me to have custody of them or is it better for me to provide financially. I do not feel right paying daycare and babysitters when she does not have to contribute to paying a portion of that financially. My boys will miss out on being able to do other activities since we will still be a divorced single income family.
If I stay in Michigan they will be travelling back and forth for the next 15 years at least once a month. This is too much for such for them.
So I have decided that once the D is done, I am going to speak with STBX and have the boys live with her and I will move to Toronto and the boys can move into the new house with her and start school there in January. I am going to speak with my VP again about the transfer. There was also a promotional opportunity at the facility in Toronto that I am going to see if I can get.
I am sure that there are many that would say money isn't everything. I want to be the best dad I can be. I know that whoever has custody will need help raising 5 boys so I guess for the sake of the boys, it is best we do that as a team and co-parent in the same city. STBX has had a lot more time to disassociate the M and our R from the love that we both have for the boys, I am just getting to that point.
At least I can show my boys that I am a man who provides for his family and does what a person has to in order to ensure that they have all I can offer them. I am sure that STBX will do the same based on her abilities.
STBX has told me many times, let's work this out and not spend money on L's. Guess I should have listened to her as the outcome in the long run will end up the same as what she wanted, just with less money now. STBX is a smart person. I have learned a lot over the last year of this rollercoaster ride.
I will explain to my boys at some time in the future that I did not give them to STBX because I gave up, I gave them to her because she loves them and so do I and in order to ensure they have everything they need to live a stable life I am giving them the gift of their mother.
I realized I don't need to see them everyday in order to be happy and be the best dad that I can be. Although I long for this sitch to be different, it is my reality. I have a lot of work to do on myself to show these little men what a good man is.
I am still hopeful that one day STBX and I will be back together, but that choice will be on her. It is a shame that people hold resentment, anger and cannot forgive others for their actions. It affects more than just the two people who were in an R or M.
I have to rebuild the friendship with her, I want to be flexible with her on raising these boys. I want the boys to see a smile on both their parent's faces, M or not. Life is not black and white. Most people would like it to be, even me. Going through this experience shows me that life is grey.
I once was the kind, giving, chivalrous gentleman that STBX fell in love with. I want to be that man again and better. When STBX made the decision to move to Michigan she said she would make it work. Well that did not happen, so it is my turn to try and make it work and see where life takes me.
Focus on me!
Focus on the boys!
Be happy!
Live life!
Be fearless, be courageous!
Think only positive thoughts and outcomes no matter how adverse the situation is.
Thank you to all who have supported me in this journey, Sandi, Ginger, Rose, Sara, SH, bigy, Mach, Rich, lt, Phoebe, Painter, Lady V, Cherry, mvgfwd, and all the others who have posted on my threads, you have helped me through the most difficult situation I have encountered in my life.
I have learned a lot from everyone and from reading DB and DR. An M or R is like a plant or flower, it needs tending. You plant the seed, water it, cultivate and watch it grow into a beautiful thing. It needs nurturing and enrichment. I will continue to provide my half of that to my new family.
One more question.
STBX decided to keep my last name. Not sure what that means. It could mean a lot of things. For me it means there still may be hope, thinking positive. I have also heard that is common for the sake of the kids or just because there is paperwork involvded that the S does not want to do.
Jim, STOP!
This is NOT the time to make life-changing decisions.
You're still emotionally completely unsettled. You need time to digest this situation and see what it's like. Give it a year.
Painter,
I understand what you are saying. That just means more money wasted on daycare and either rent or getting a house in Michigan. I just want to move on with my life and provide as much as I can financially. As far as STBX is concerned, I am not sure I want her back. She offered 50-50 custody in mediation and I turned it down.
It is not about the money between her and I anymore and me not wanting to pay child support to her. I just want some normalcy again. I cannot perform to the best of my ability at work as a single dad. If STBX still resents me no matter who has the boys, that is on her. I just want to give my kids the best possible outcome between her and I at this point and this cannot be done living such a long distance apart.
One year of me making knee jerk reactions and being inconsistent in my choices is enough.
One more question.
STBX decided to keep my last name. Not sure what that means. It could mean a lot of things. For me it means there still may be hope, thinking positive. I have also heard that is common for the sake of the kids or just because there is paperwork involvded that the S does not want to do.
There isn't actually a question here, so I'm only guessing that you are asking us what we think it means.
Nothing. It means nothing in terms of her feelings for you or your chance of reconciling. The most contentious divorce among my friends and family is the one where the wife kept her married name.
And I agree with Painter. Please don't make any decisions for the first year after the divorce is finalized. I worry hat your planned actions will not communicate to the boys what you think they will communicate.
Jim, STOP!
This is NOT the time to make life-changing decisions.
You're still emotionally completely unsettled. You need time to digest this situation and see what it's like. Give it a year.
Yes jk, please heed this advice...
Many have concern for you here...
It is time for you to slow down on the decision making from such emotional points...
Have you not been in this cheese less tunnel long enough...
You are rationalizing things with very unsettled emotions...
Please, if you have learned nothing from your jouney thus far, STOP!
And learn the lesson needed here...
Time is you gift...
With time you will gain clarity...
You have nothing to lose by slowing down and living the new reality for a time...
You have everything to lose, by rushing into yet another emotionally charged life changing decision...
True success...
True healing...
True wisdom...
All take time...
No quick fix will benefit your sons...
You...
Nor your stbx...
This thought of yours appears to be the path of a man seeking a quick fix for the pain he working through...
I fear that nothing I share here will Pentwater your mind, heart or thoghts...
You are a grown man...
A father trying to do the best you can...
Please just this one time ever in your story, STOP!!!
And heed the advice of many that have gone before you...
You and your family are in my prayers daily Jim...
I will pray that you receive inspiration and at least a moment of clarity that will guide you my dear brother, my friend...
Painter,
I understand what you are saying. That just means more money wasted on daycare and either rent or getting a house in Michigan. I just want to move on with my life and provide as much as I can financially. As far as STBX is concerned, I am not sure I want her back. She offered 50-50 custody in mediation and I turned it down.
It is not about the money between her and I anymore and me not wanting to pay child support to her. I just want some normalcy again. I cannot perform to the best of my ability at work as a single dad. If STBX still resents me no matter who has the boys, that is on her. I just want to give my kids the best possible outcome between her and I at this point and this cannot be done living such a long distance apart.
One year of me making knee jerk reactions and being inconsistent in my choices is enough.
But don't you see that this would be yet another knee-jerk reaction?
A father should be more than a financial provider. And your success as a father is more important than achieving your highest potential at work.
As SH said, live the new reality for a while.
Painter,
I understand what you are saying. That just means more money wasted on daycare and either rent or getting a house in Michigan. I just want to move on with my life and provide as much as I can financially. As far as STBX is concerned, I am not sure I want her back. She offered 50-50 custody in mediation and I turned it down.
It is not about the money between her and I anymore and me not wanting to pay child support to her. I just want some normalcy again. I cannot perform to the best of my ability at work as a single dad. If STBX still resents me no matter who has the boys, that is on her. I just want to give my kids the best possible outcome between her and I at this point and this cannot be done living such a long distance apart.
One year of me making knee jerk reactions and being inconsistent in my choices is enough.
But don't you see that this would be yet another knee-jerk reaction?
A father should be more than a financial provider. And your success as a father is more important than achieving your highest potential at work.
As SH said, live the new reality for a while.
Rose,
I agree, I will be more than a financial provider, that is my choice on how much I interact with the boys no matter who has custody of them. I need to balance both. I have been living the new reality for a year now, granted not in the best emotional state but have managed to parent these boys as best as I can. I am not doing this for STBX I am doing it because I want to.
So I am a little late in the game but are you saying you're giving physical custody to your wife? The one who's been completely fine with emotionally, physically and psychologically neglecting them?
JK, I can't even begin to imagine the number of emotions swirling in you right now. My initial leaning would have been that mediation would lead to at least some closure, but it does not appear that it has. It seems to have only opened up more questions and uncertainty for you and your family.
We all know how amazing of a father and man you are. We all want what's best for you and your family. And it really may be that your latest plan is the best thing for everyone. However, what's the harm in slowing the decision making down? There seems to be no downside to taking a pause to catch your breath.
You now have a legal agreement in place to drive things in the short term. That agreement is your "baseline" option. There may or may not be a better way to optimize that agreement, but I'd ask have you really had a chance to truly clear your mind and thoughtfully think through all your options?
With the immediate pressure off, why not settle in a bit and make sure you're making the best decision for you and the kids. If you take some time and decide your current plan is the best, then by all means follow through with it. However, I'd bet you find a more optimal solution if you give it some time.
Regardless, know that we all care about you and are here to support you. Hang in there brother!
Sara,
So what I recall from Gottman's book, one of the 4 horsemen that causes an M to break up is criticism. It is easy for me and my support team to criticize STBX's actions or statements, likewise for her and her support group. This does not create a healthy R whether it is an S, friend or acquaintance.
I do not know whether or not she and I will ever have a healthy R, M or not. I can't worry about that.
I think part of what gets us here is that LBSs see things in black and white and what I am realizing is that an M or R is really grey. There is no right or wrong answer. Do what is counterintuitive. I have to say, it is one thing to work on yourself and another to work on the R. The things you say and do are not the same for both.
lt,
Here is the thing, I really do not have a whole lot of emotions that I am going through anymore.
STBX called the boys Saturday morning at 8:30 am. Boys were up since 6 am. They had breakfast, then they wanted cheese for a snack at 8 and just before STBX calls they found snack bags of Cheetos. I let them each have one. One of the boys told mommy what they were eating and after she was done speaking with them and we hung up the phone she sends a text criticizing me about feeding them Cheetos at 8:30 am. I did not respond. She no longer has that right to dictate what I can and cannot do with them on my time. Before I would have let that bother me and eat me up for not being the perfect parent. Now, I don't let those negative comments affect me.
Mediation did lead to some closure and it did open new questions up for me. I feel like I am in a different kind of limbo now. I don't think there is a best plan. I am working on my plan for me and the boys which may or may not include STBX.
I know this has been quite the roller coaster for you. But there must have been a reason you went through hell and back getting psychiatric evaluations and figuring out who the kids time is best spent with. Even as of recent you expressed co corn over neglectful the parenting.
Now you feel it was just criticism. And she should have custody of the kids?
I'm honestly confused as heck, maybe it's. Or for me to get. It's seems as if you went through he lol and back doing these psyche evaluations , because you really felt the best place for these kids were in the home with you. That's what I read all along. You fought hart to have them be with you, here in America and now you've suddenly decided the kids should live in toto to with their mom.
Like I said, maybe it's not for me to get. But given your comment on your last name seeing it as some sort of hope, and all this talk of reconciliation when she hasn't indicated at all she is going down that path .....
I am so so worried you are making this choice because you think it ups your chances of getting back together.
No edit button and responding on an iPad is not a good combo. Sorry if that wasn't clear
By the way, just about every divorced mom I know kept their arrived last name. To have the same last name as their kids.
I did not and its a regret of mine. I was going to hyphenate my daughters last name, but in the end I decided not to for her sake. So now we have 2 different last names, but the school still calls me by hers anyways. Should have just kept it
I know this has been quite the roller coaster for you. But there must have been a reason you went through hell and back getting psychiatric evaluations and figuring out who the kids time is best spent with. Even as of recent you expressed co corn over neglectful the parenting.
Now you feel it was just criticism. And she should have custody of the kids?
Well I tried to implement tough love. Obviously that did not work. IDK if anything would have worked. I do know that when I initially had my transfer going things were different and more positive. Not saying she and I would have been back together but I could have taken things day by day and developed a better R with her than a high conflict one we have now. I am not being hard on myself, I am only owning up to my 50%.
I do not think I ever said that she was neglectful. I just stated things the boys told me and what others have observed. Look, there are low income families that I am sure aren't the best parents but they are still parents and they do the best they can, good, bad or indifferent.
We went through he// and back because both STBX and I were pushing and pulling at each other. In the end, no one is happy with the outcome. As I stated earlier, what I want is all 7 of us living under the same roof. That isn't going to happen, so now what I want is the boys to be in a stable environment no matter who has them. Psychologist even stated that if we both lived in the same city she would have recommended 50-50.
The reality is STBX will never work a full time job to contribute financially the way others would think is normal.
I'm honestly confused as heck, maybe it's not for me to get. It seems as if you went through he// and back doing these psyche evaluations , because you really felt the best place for these kids were in the home with you. That's what I read all along. You fought hard to have them be with you, here in America and now you've suddenly decided the kids should live in toto to with their mom.
Like I said, maybe it's not for me to get. But given your comment on your last name seeing it as some sort of hope, and all this talk of reconciliation when she hasn't indicated at all she is going down that path .....
I am so so worried you are making this choice because you think it ups your chances of getting back together.
I have no expectation of getting back together with STBX. That is clear, understood and accepted by me. I am still hopeful but the choice is hers.
Sara,
So what I recall from Gottman's book, one of the 4 horsemen that causes an M to break up is criticism. It is easy for me and my support team to criticize STBX's actions or statements, likewise for her and her support group. This does not create a healthy R whether it is an S, friend or acquaintance.
I do not know whether or not she and I will ever have a healthy R, M or not. I can't worry about that.
I think part of what gets us here is that LBSs see things in black and white and what I am realizing is that an M or R is really grey. There is no right or wrong answer. Do what is counterintuitive. I have to say, it is one thing to work on yourself and another to work on the R. The things you say and do are not the same for both.
lt,
Here is the thing, I really do not have a whole lot of emotions that I am going through anymore.
STBX called the boys Saturday morning at 8:30 am. Boys were up since 6 am. They had breakfast, then they wanted cheese for a snack at 8 and just before STBX calls they found snack bags of Cheetos. I let them each have one. One of the boys told mommy what they were eating and after she was done speaking with them and we hung up the phone she sends a text criticizing me about feeding them Cheetos at 8:30 am. I did not respond. She no longer has that right to dictate what I can and cannot do with them on my time. Before I would have let that bother me and eat me up for not being the perfect parent. Now, I don't let those negative comments affect me.
Mediation did lead to some closure and it did open new questions up for me. I feel like I am in a different kind of limbo now. I don't think there is a best plan. I am working on my plan for me and the boys which may or may not include STBX.
I'm curious about the part in bold, because I have found that working on me and working on the marriage are the same thing.
For example, I work on not expecting my husband to comfort and validate me. I do it for me, but it makes me less clingy and needy, which improves the marriage. I participate in GAL activities, which gives me passion and energy. I do it for me, but it also brings the passion and energy into our home and marriage.
Can you share some examples of how they are different?
Rose,
I guess it all depends on the stage each sitch is in. For my case, I don't ever see us reconciling anymore not because of me but because of the resentment she has for me and her stating she will never forgive me. Who knows, maybe I am wrong. Maybe if I do move up there we might get back together. I can't worry about that now. My M was only 6 years. I can see how it would be positive in the example you gave. I guess the best outcome for me is that STBX and I end up as good coparents.
Rose
Gently V! Most times what brings us to this point is waywardness which is little to do with poor thinking from instance black and white or magical thinking.
That is the waywards chioce instead of working on their M, they feel entitled to behave as they choose. There are of course those who want to walk without waywardness. Those M might be saved.
Waywardness is bad behaviour, poor choices and absolute selfishness. Of course few of us are ideal partners, but frankly the responsibility for bad choices lies with the one who made them.
We can clean up our side of the street with a broom and shovel whilst the other side needs a truck and a crew with hazmat suits.
Doing the best we can for ourselves is our overarching requirement and yes I think developing ourselves helps us. An R is a communication between two in an M, taking time to have the skills to be a great partner is wonderful and part of our selves personally.
With a walkaway resolving ourselves may aid the R and certainly can heal an M. If the other is a wayward all of the effort in ourselves and our M likely has little effect on the wayward. We loose sight of the fact we are fine, just fine as we are and we are tinkering at the edges.
I put the responsibility on the waywards and their scuzzies and dipstick OP. Nasty unpleasant selfish behaviours and choices made by entitled jerks. No poor thinking of an LBS is ever an excuse for it. We may be chumps, and we M these waywards. This is the choice of the wayward fair and square.
In order to piece an M the wayward makes different choices and gets the big clean up of their side of the street.
My 2c worth.
V
Oh Lady V!
I have so much to learn and grow as a person. Thank you for chiming in. Your words are perfect!
V,
I don't disagree with anything you said. I think you misunderstood what I was saying. (And I might have misunderstood what Jim was saying.)
In the part of his post that I bolded, Jim said that what you do to work on yourself and what you do to work on the marriage are very different things.
The implication was that working on yourself and working on the marriage are in conflict, and that's the part I was questioning.
I think working on yourself is the one constant that holds true regardless of whether your spouse is walkaway or wayward, and whether you are in LRT or piecing. I don't see it as conflicting in any way with working on the marriage.
I was curious about why Jim thought they were in conflict. (And maybe he doesn't and I misunderstood the part I quoted.)
I am not in any way blaming anyone here for their wayward spouse's behavior and choices. Nor am I saying that if we all work on ourselves, all of our marriages will be saved. (I just happen to think that working on ourselves makes us better able to handle whatever happens in our marriages and gives our marriage the best chance of succeeding in terms of our side of the street. If the other side of the street has collapsed into a sinkhole, obviously our side being clean is not the major issue.)
I was simply curious about what I read as a claim that working on yourself and working on the marriage are very different from each other and potentially in conflict.
Rose
My point isn't about blame at all. Just we are good enough already most often without work. We are great folk, wondrous parents (Jim here this) and loving men and women.
We can develop ourselves for our own sakes if we want to. Most often it is healing from the damage the wayward does and growing detachment and self compassion.
In many cases it makes diddly difference if the wayward is in la la. Jim jumping through hoops becoming Brad Pitt or Superman won't help. He is wonderful and amazing just as he is.
So becoming who we want to be for us is perfectly fine.
We are worth being M and in an R with.
V
I'm sorry, Jim, I just can't imagine you have gone through everything you have to say "you take the boys, I'll come move up there". Tough love? You mean to see if tough love would make her think it was a better idea just to reconcile?
Live your new reality for a little while, because once you make that decision, that's pretty much it.
It's awful any of us have to be here making these decisions. But these decisions need to be thought through very thoroughly.
Rose,
I guess when we read things on threads that do not always communicate correctly. I do not believe that the two are in conflict. I do belive they are independent of each other. If a person takes stock on the status of their M and can catch things early enough, I agree that it does benefit and support the M or R, thus the bonus is a healthier union between spouses.
The reality for most on this forum though is that we do not realize our M is lost until it is to late, thus making the two items independent of each other. Even if I do become Liam Neeson I may not get my wife back but I might get someone as beautiful as Lady V in the future!
Something really jumped out at me that no one else has commented on. After the kids told mom they had Cheetos at 8am you tell us.
"She no longer has that right to dictate what I can and cannot do with them on my time."
I could not disagree with you more here and if you don't work on this these kids will run all over you and W in future years. Yes, she has no right to dictate to you. That said, kids need consistency and will play the two of you against one another like there is no tomorrow. You both really need to figure out how to parent together. Allowing the kids one set of rules while with you and another with mom just is not a good idea. The two of you need to discuss and agree on these things and then stick to it. If not it will be when you say no, they will go to mom. When mom says no they will go to you. Not good. She should not dictate to you nor you to her. You need to compromise and agree. FWIW Cheetos at 8 am is not the hill to die on. 8 pm maybe. Just admit it was not your best idea.
Then as Ginger and others are saying, I really don't get this custody thing. Are you saying you fought and paid to get primary custody and now want to give it up before it's even started? Dude, WTF? As the others have said, you need to step back and breathe. Don't undo what you just fought and worked to get. Why on earth would you do that? I'll stop here but, that scares me for you. Don't make any decisions until you get a clear head.
JK, I fully admit that I have absolutely zero experience as a parent, but I would also urge you to just step back and take a break for a while. There is no need to do anything right now besides take a little time to recover your equilibrium.
Breathe, JK.
((((((((((Jim ))))))))))
I have been thinking a lot over the last few days and have realized my STBX's POV. She will never get a job to support the boys and contribute to their well being financially. No one can force STBX to get a job. So who will be the sole breadwinner for the boys, me.
Do yourself a huge favor, and do NOT dictate what the future will be...
Do NOT dictate future success, nor future failures...
Also do not try to predict what your WAS is capable of doing, or not capable of doing...
And while you are there, knock off trying to be the Martyr .
When I consider things long term, is it better for me to have custody of them or is it better for me to provide financially. I do not feel right paying daycare and babysitters when she does not have to contribute to paying a portion of that financially. My boys will miss out on being able to do other activities since we will still be a divorced single income family.
If I stay in Michigan they will be travelling back and forth for the next 15 years at least once a month. This is too much for such for them.
So I have decided that once the D is done, I am going to speak with STBX and have the boys live with her and I will move to Toronto and the boys can move into the new house with her and start school there in January. I am going to speak with my VP again about the transfer. There was also a promotional opportunity at the facility in Toronto that I am going to see if I can get.
What is best for the boys, is for you to quit trying to win back your WAS by making knee-jerk, irrational decisions about your future. and the future of the boys....
What is best for the boys, is SHOWING them how to come through a difficult period of your life without taking the easy path...
I am sure that there are many that would say money isn't everything. I want to be the best dad I can be. I know that whoever has custody will need help raising 5 boys so I guess for the sake of the boys, it is best we do that as a team and co-parent in the same city. STBX has had a lot more time to disassociate the M and our R from the love that we both have for the boys, I am just getting to that point.
At least I can show my boys that I am a man who provides for his family and does what a person has to in order to ensure that they have all I can offer them. I am sure that STBX will do the same based on her abilities.
STBX has told me many times, let's work this out and not spend money on L's. Guess I should have listened to her as the outcome in the long run will end up the same as what she wanted, just with less money now. STBX is a smart person. I have learned a lot over the last year of this rollercoaster ride.
Toronto ? Really ??
Don't get me wrong, Toronto is a nice city. However, you making the decision to move there, on a small sliver of hope that it will either cause her to have second thoughts, or to actually co-parent with you....
Is pretty naive....
I would Google what it means to parallel parent your kids...
Maybe, one day, you can co-parent, but for the next few years, you will look more like the parallel kind of parenting.
It takes work and communication to co-parent. You are still way too raw for that, and from reading about her, she has zero interest in it...
I will explain to my boys at some time in the future that I did not give them to STBX because I gave up, I gave them to her because she loves them and so do I and in order to ensure they have everything they need to live a stable life I am giving them the gift of their mother.
I realized I don't need to see them everyday in order to be happy and be the best dad that I can be. Although I long for this sitch to be different, it is my reality. I have a lot of work to do on myself to show these little men what a good man is.
B is for bullschidt....
Again, cut the martyr crap...
Secondly, do NOT pull them into this...
Thirdly, giving up for your above reasons, and giving up because you can't put a bottle down, or a needle down....???
In the end, you are still giving up on them, the reason will be irrelevant in the future...
I am still hopeful that one day STBX and I will be back together, but that choice will be on her. It is a shame that people hold resentment, anger and cannot forgive others for their actions. It affects more than just the two people who were in an R or M.
I have to rebuild the friendship with her, I want to be flexible with her on raising these boys. I want the boys to see a smile on both their parent's faces, M or not. Life is not black and white. Most people would like it to be, even me. Going through this experience shows me that life is grey.
I once was the kind, giving, chivalrous gentleman that STBX fell in love with. I want to be that man again and better. When STBX made the decision to move to Michigan she said she would make it work. Well that did not happen, so it is my turn to try and make it work and see where life takes me.
Huge difference between being flexible, and giving away your mojo at every opportunity....
And you have a better shot at anything in life if you CHOOSE to not cut and run from it...
Life is about handling the grey....
The black and white are the decisions that you make to get to the grey...
Black and White are the decisions that aren't flexible, grey is..
Black and White are from where you LEAD your family...
Grey is where you moan about what you didn't do in the black and white...
Do your self a favor Jim....
Do NOT make any decisions while you are raw from this ???
jk
Please listen to Mach1 here...
Everything that he shares he does from a perspective of having been down the road...
You can't see the forest for the trees now...
And to go along with machs assesment of you taking a martyr's route, which I would agree with as I have followed your story from the beginning...
Google Are you a relationship martyr...
My dear friend I say this with all the compassion in my heart for you, but I see you in each of the 10 ways indicated...
Vanilla is right, your WW is her issue, and you are good enough to be loved as you are...and I say this is the reason you need to leave her be...
But even if you are good enough to love the way you are now, there are many indicators in how you are handling this that would say there is work to do on you...
This work you need is not about being someone worthy of love, it is about your challenges in handling relationships...
I have shared with you my thoughts about your potential for victim mentality behavior...
Your recent announcement is one of those characteristics...
This is not good or bad, it just is...
You deserve to have more, and rolling over is not how you will get it...
One does not get what they deserve, one gets what they go out and work hard for and earn...
You need to earn respect from your boys, from yourself, from her and or anyone else in life...
Jk I think we all know that this decision has been made in your mind from the beginning...you continued to say that you would decide after the courts decided...but you never said how one decision or another would lead to anything other than you running back to Toronto...you know this...we all see this...
Your boys need a stable parent...your WW has not been that, you know this.
I will stop here because there is nothing I can share with you nor anyone else that will change your mind...only you can look within and see what you need to do to make changes...
Your tune has not changed really from the beginning...and this is neither good nor bad...just is...but if you really want something different that what you are continue to get then will will need to do something different than you have been doing.
Your decision here appears to us to be along the same lines of past decisions that you express regret for...
I may not support your decision here, but I do support you JimKao.
I pray for you and your boys everyday.
I pray you find the strength to do what is right for the boys, for yourself ...
Hopefully you may heed the advice of those much further down the road of a very similar journey...
Mach1 is one of those that you would benefit to heed.
Ginger
Don
There are others that have shared with you as well.
Virtual man hug for you brother...
(((((JimKao)))))
My prayers are with you.
I pray you find the strength to do what is right for the boys, for yourself ...
Just to bring this point home a bit more....
Doing what is right for the boys....???
Taking care of Jim, and making sure that Jim makes good, sound, rational decisions that affect him in a positive way. Making sure that Jim is of sound mind, body , and spirit, so that Jim can be the best Father that he can be. Taking his life in his terms, rather than taking crumbs, or accepting less than what he has worked for.
Jim being happy, and nurturing Jim's wants and needs, is ultimately...
What is best for Jim's boys....
Sandi,
Any thoughts comments?
I appreciate all the input. I will continue to focus on me and the boys.
Considering your WW is unwilling to move to where you are in order to have 50/50 custody and is instead accepting of what was given, that says a lot of where her mind is. It doesn't appear to be on the boys. Maybe waiting for WW to show signs of less selfishness would be prudent before you make big life changes.
I agree with this Jim. Your WW must choose motherhood over selfishness.
Just as my amazing friend Jim has selected fatherhood as his prime life goal. You are just incredible Jim.
V
Considering your WW is unwilling to move to where you are in order to have 50/50 custody and is instead accepting of what was given, that says a lot of where her mind is. It doesn't appear to be on the boys. Maybe waiting for WW to show signs of less selfishness would be prudent before you make big life changes.
I agree with this 1000%
Another thing - now when the court didn't give her what she wanted, perhaps she will change her mind down the road. If it were me, I would give her time to think about her situation, feel what it's like to live like this, struggle with the distance, and then you can reevaluate in a year if she has not changed. I have a feeling you will not be so eager to move then, but who knows.
If you intervene now, I think you'll take away her opportunity to develop. Does that make sense?
Hi. Still hoping Sandi will post her thoughts or comments.
What are you hoping Sandi will say in her post?
IDK. All I know is I understand my STBXs POV. Regardless of my M. I dont have to like what she does says or thinks. I just need to enaure my boys are taken care of and there are a lot of ways to do that whether they are with me or her.
Your understanding of your STBXs POV is through your value system. Not really valid since hers is out of wack in selfishville.
As an example, if you are in her shoes and your option was to move to where the boys are now to get 50/50 custody versus getting the 25/75, what would you choose? My guess is you would not hesitate to move to get 50/50. That is your value system. Hers accepts 25/75 because her value system doesn't care as much.
Jim, why did you go through this long and expensive process of getting custody and primary residence for the children in your state?
It seems very strange that you would change your mind the same day you reach the goal you fought so hard for?
Jim I really hope you will answer painters question as I, and I'm pretty sure others here don't get that either. Please help us understand - and help yourself try to find some clarity by explaining how these are both good ideas.
Jim, I saw a post from you on another thread that sounded as if you
were a little bitter about the tough love advice you received, and wished you would have stuck with Chuck's advice.
You talked as though you believed things would have worked out, but that you were advised not to make that move. That has mainly been my reason for remaining quiet on this last decision you are considering.
This is your life to live as you see fit. You don't have to do a darn thing anyone may suggest. As your board friends, we are very concerned for you and your children. This child custody and D has been very stressful & draining on you. When a person is physically, mentally, and emotionally stressed over the period of time you have faced.....and over the most important part of your life.....making decisions that have lifelong effects may not be a wise thing to do for a while.
I read a book on how various experiences in life affects the stress level in a person. Coming in as number one on the worst stress possible was death/divorce. It also stated that a person should not make big decisions (like selling a house, moving the family, changing jobs, etc.) until that stress level had reduced sufficiently. We are likely to make bad decisions when over stressed.
I believe I understand your POV about not wanting daycares and nannies to raise your children, and how you had rather leave them in the hands of their mother. You are comfortable providing the finances and letting her fill the role of SAHM/homemaker. As a parent, I also understand sacrifices we make for our children. Nobody doubts that you want what is best for your boys.
The issue that most of us seem to agree on is your WW. You speak of her
capable skills, and at one time she may have been the idea mother...IDK. However, based on your own accounts, she is extremely entitled, spoiled, angry, bossy, and selfish.....not to mention her waywardness in the M. This custody/divorce settlement has done nothing to change her, as far as we can tell by her actions. She wasted no time in making sure you would continue supporting her.
She was priority on her agenda. In her usual style, she insured her own provisions by selfishly refusing to work and take care of her responsibilities (although she would be single). She would not compromise....much less,
sacrifice, and move where her children were living & in school, even if you supported her! What does that tell you about the mother of these children? You see, it's not just about a woman's capable skills to run a home and take care of children. It is what kind of person she
is.....and will be molding these boys to become. With as much anger and hate as she currently has for you, it can't help but influence those children. Imagine what these children will hear and see displayed from their mother figure, and how her ugly attitudes, selfishness, etc., will affect them as individuals.
I don't mean to make things more difficult, I only want you to take plenty of time before making this extreme move. Give it time to see what she does after the court's decision has time to sink into her brain. She is still wayward! She
can change, but so far, she hasn't. This may be the first "loss" she's ever experienced in her life, IDK. I only know that you are ready to
undo the loss for her.
Jim!!!!!!!!!!!
Breathe and focus on you and your boys. This is a knee jerk reaction to her not "coming to her senses". Tell me how this benefits the boys. They can tell their mommy has been distant even when with them. You have been their stable point and are about to undue that stability you formed by moving. Then why fight at all??? At this point it is no longer about You or her...it is about the boys and sorry to tell you this but a mom like your Ex is not going to aid in their development. She is all about her..you are all about her..WHO is all about the boys??
As a mom to 4boys i will tell you there is no way in hell> I could fathom moving to a different country and being ok with seeing them once a month.
Please take a step back and let go
Let her go.
Be the lighthouse for the boys. Do not keep moving them around. Stand up for them. Why move them destabilize them.. all to end up with a woman who has not shown much interest in them. Why cause them that pain
I don't mean to make things more difficult, I only want you to take plenty of time before making this extreme move. Give it time to see what she does after the court's decision has time to sink into her brain. She is still wayward! She can change, but so far, she hasn't. This may be the first "loss" she's ever experienced in her life, IDK. I only know that you are ready to undo the loss for her.
I couldn't agree more...
Jim, I get the feeling, that you had some expectations that this wouldn't go this far. And somewhere in the "process", she would see the error of her ways and want to come back ???
IF.....IF that was the situation...
Then maybe you have the same type of expectation, about giving up hard fought custody to her....
???
And IF
that is the case...
Then you should really take some time to figure out WHY you are making that decision.....
Jim, I saw a post from you on another thread that sounded as if you
were a little bitter about the tough love advice you received, and wished you would have stuck with Chuck's advice.
You talked as though you believed things would have worked out, but that you were advised not to make that move. That has mainly been my reason for remaining quiet on this last decision you are considering.
I am not bitter about the tough love. Hindsight is 20/20. That was
ALL my decision and choice. Obviously it did not go the way I planned. IDK that it would have been different had I moved up there the first time around. It may have prolonged the inevitable. When I pulled my transfer back it was based on an emotional decision which contributed my 50% of leading me down a path to D.
This is your life to live as you see fit. You don't have to do a darn thing anyone may suggest. As your board friends, we are very concerned for you and your children. This child custody and D has been very stressful & draining on you. When a person is physically, mentally, and emotionally stressed over the period of time you have faced.....and over the most important part of your life.....making decisions that have lifelong effects may not be a wise thing to do for a while.
I really do appreciate everyone's concern for my boys and my well being. Please do not get me wrong, it touches my heart that so many people are trying to guide me to make the right choices both from the boards and the support I have from family and friends.
I read a book on how various experiences in life affects the stress level in a person. Coming in as number one on the worst stress possible was death/divorce. It also stated that a person should not make big decisions (like selling a house, moving the family, changing jobs, etc.) until that stress level had reduced sufficiently. We are likely to make bad decisions when over stressed.
I no longer have anxiety. I feel that is what got me here in the first place, my knee jerk reaction to file back in December of 2015. As far as STBX and I are concerned, I am not sure I even want an M with her again. I don't want to think about that at this time. I do know that I can make choices that are more positive for all 7 of us.
I believe I understand your POV about not wanting daycares and nannies to raise your children, and how you had rather leave them in the hands of their mother. You are comfortable providing the finances and letting her fill the role of SAHM/homemaker. As a parent, I also understand sacrifices we make for our children. Nobody doubts that you want what is best for your boys.
When I look at the long term, the next 15 years until my youngest turns 18, it is not fiscally realistic for me to stay here with them. The D has only made it more difficult for me to be financially stable long term. I would rather pay child support than daycare and have a smaller home where the boys can stay with me either 50 percent of the time or less. I just want them to have stability and not be travelling once a month for a long weekend between Michigan and Toronto. It is too much. I can make a life anywhere.
The issue that most of us seem to agree on is your WW. You speak of her capable skills, and at one time she may have been the idea mother...IDK. However, based on your own accounts, she is extremely entitled, spoiled, angry, bossy, and selfish.....not to mention her waywardness in the M. This custody/divorce settlement has done nothing to change her, as far as we can tell by her actions. She wasted no time in making sure you would continue supporting her. She was priority on her agenda. In her usual style, she insured her own provisions by selfishly refusing to work and take care of her responsibilities (although she would be single). She would not compromise....much less, sacrifice, and move where her children were living & in school, even if you supported her! What does that tell you about the mother of these children? You see, it's not just about a woman's capable skills to run a home and take care of children. It is what kind of person she is.....and will be molding these boys to become. With as much anger and hate as she currently has for you, it can't help but influence those children. Imagine what these children will hear and see displayed from their mother figure, and how her ugly attitudes, selfishness, etc., will affect them as individuals.
I don't mean to make things more difficult, I only want you to take plenty of time before making this extreme move. Give it time to see what she does after the court's decision has time to sink into her brain. She is still wayward! She can change, but so far, she hasn't. This may be the first "loss" she's ever experienced in her life, IDK. I only know that you are ready to undo the loss for her.
I agree, she is a spoiled princess and there is nothing I can do about that. I don't know how much responsibility she wants to take on with respect to the boys but I do know that I can always fill that void that she leaves. I do not feel I am making another knee jerk reaction. This decision has been flip flopping in my head for a year now and it has turned in a negative direction for my family. I want to make it more positive even if we are D'd. Who knows what the future will hold, I don't want to speculate anymore and I don't have to take her criticism either way. I can no longer let fear control me or worry about what STBX says about me. My actions are the only way to ensure a more positive environment for me and the boys.
There is a quote from Tony Robbins "A real decision is measured by the fact that you've take a new action. If there's no action, you haven't truly decided."
I recently read one of PsySara's latest posts that if her WAH does D, she would still like him to be part of their children's lives and attend birthday parties, etc. Ideally I would like that too, I just don't know how that would happen in the near term whoever had custody of the boys. At some point in time both of us need to let go of all the anger and resentment that has brought us to this point, for the sake of the boys.
I do not plan on doing anything right away. My L said that STBX's L still needs to go in front of the court on Oct 7th and review everything. D will not be finalized until the end of October. So until I see the results and am officially D'd, I am maintaining the status quo.
Jim
Deciding to do nothing is a delightful is a decision and often a positive choice.
Tony I believe is referring to no decision, I think so. Doing nothing is ok.
Time, you have time.
V
So the other day STBX texts me and asks what time we are doing the exchange this Friday. It is Canadian Thanksgiving weekend. I told her I would be bringing the boys up since I have business there this weekend. She responded with "that's great"!
She then asks if I can pack some nice clothes for them for Thanksgiving. I said "sure". My interpretation of tough love would be to tell her to go buy her own clothes now, but I am not an a$$hole.
Should I tell her it's not my job anymore to provide for her even if it has to do with the boys?
Given your custody schedule, it's unreasonable for each parent to keep clothes for the boys. Her request seems fine.
I think your idea of "tough love" really comes off as inconsistent and punishing. Tough love being a court battle when you are just going to give her what she wants was punishing. Should you be over accommodating? absolutely not. Sharing the boys clothes? That's for the boys.
But I am still so confused. You want to tell her it's not your job to provide anymore even it's for the boys, yet you want to give her custody because you want to be able to provide for them?
Just think about it a little. It's like you are trying every action to prove a point, teach a lesson, or make her do something but they are so inconsistent.