Previous Thread:
"Keep Wearing Wedding Band? [Thread #3]"Recap: see sig.
I was a DJ for my college radio station. We went out over AM and over cable TV. I was taught early to play music, but never focused, never got good. But listening -- music felt like everything. "When I was young/The radio played for me/And it saved me," sings Roddy Frame. That's how I feel. Music saved me during my teen years. Nowadays I play the guitar for fun. I can strum easy chords, and sing a bit off key. I don't have a single song memorized, and I have to always look at my laptop to remember the chords.
I'm about to turn 49. I grew up on the westcoast U.S., 30 minutes from the beach. I played in the surf like all kids in the area. I learned to surf in college, and have been surfing all this time, 10 of those years in New England, year-round. It is an obsession. But I have lost my zeal since the second bomb drop. I still go now and again, and some days are good, but the fire is gone. For now.
Surfing is awesome. Something I would love to learn. I priced somethings this summer, but could not afford it. I'm happy on my skateboard though. I really hope it bites down hard on you again, every surfer I have ever me has a look in their eye like they are reliving it when they speak about it.
You know you need to get back on that surfboard. And by all means keep listening to music! You'll look back on this period one day and point to both of these things as part of what got you through to where you ended up: living a happy life.
Are the kids old enough to surf? That would be pretty awesome teaching them, and then you'd have great partners. Think how sick they'd end up being if they started as kids!
Gump, the best thing you can do is put your energy into those things and your kiddos.
I sense a lot of anger from you about your W. Remember, that means you still care. If some stranger said something obnoxious, you'd just give it a thought and then forget about it.
You're also at home. This is so much harder. When my W left, it was an awful, awful day. But what I've learned in 3mos is that the ONLY shot our marriage has is for us to be apart.
When my W left, it was an awful, awful day. But what I've learned in 3mos is that the ONLY shot our marriage has is for us to be apart.
So very, very true IMO. Seems to against what one would think.
You're also at home. This is so much harder.
Amen to this. FG, it [censored] being in the same house as my WW, and [censored] even more sharing the same bed w/ her. It makes things so much more gray than the black and white view I'd imagine comes from being physically separated.
RSG is right about the anger. You do seem to still have immense caring for your W, which isn't a bad thing. I'm cycling through the same stuff and am not sure how to get out of it.
No other real advice here for you other than keep doing stuff for you. Keeping a level head is very beneficial to you and the kids right now. It's hard to do, but I've no doubts you can swing it brother!
Okay. I did a course prior to this called Marriage Fitness for say 18 moths. By a gut called Mort Fertel. There are others etc. It's was okay but nothing like DB. This gets to the core.
Anyway the MF Course was all about, never do anything that separates you etc. Never go on holiday separately don't agree to a divorce etc. Some things I still hold to as they are correct. But not separating. IMHO, without distance between us we were just going to be at war. We needed space to stop the war. Can't make peace and war at the same time. You need to stop the war to make friends, then hopefully build a loving connection again - be that in a M, as lovers or whatever. But we all knows war just mean death, territory and money (territory). So yeah. I agree. Life is better separate. Life has a better chance of survival without spew putting acid into the soil that is supposed to be sufficiently fertile for our M to grow.
So with both courses together I must be 24 - 30 months into some sort of DB. Prior to that - the panic stages. And prior to that 3 years of WTF is happening to us. Incl. couples counselling. Will it work? IDK. If it doesn't, I will surely be well trained for the next lady. Should a few things happen I will be able to spot signs where I need to react. I will also be able to spot signs where the foot goes down.
Surfer.
I buy into everything you're saying.
If my kids weren't involved.
I buy into everything you're saying.
If my kids weren't involved.
I mean - I have to ask what specifically you are not buying into about what Surfer said b/c of your kids? What does that mean? Are you referring to the living separate thing? If so, and you think she is gone no matter what - I mean won't you be in separate places anyway when you D?
And Surfer - I hope we all will be ready for the next lady if it comes to that, but my friend, any scent of this crap and I am so very out of there! Hahahahahaha, no actually I am serious; I am not doing this w/ another woman or ever again. My W gets it because I need the time to get healthy and one hundred percent and there's all the positive crap I feel about her.
I understand what Gump is saying,
There is a big difference between W moving out like mine did and W willing to hang around but tell you it's over and want D. I would love to say that I would have the balls to tell her to leave but push come to shove I don't know that I could. Even knowing like Gump that she is full steam towards D and will move out anyway. It begs one question though if she is full steam ahead with D why hasn't she moved yet? Has she said why she is hanging around?
Now as for what CT said, you are so right this is a one off train and be it my W or a new lady this doormat is done if I get even the slightest sniff of things heading this way I will TALK about it and say what I am thinking. God knows it could have helped in the past. But as you say for now I'm working on V2 of myself. The reinvention of all that is me.
One quick one not sure if everyone gets the same thoughts as me but when I feel I am starting to spin the wheels and get consumed by it all. I rewind to when we were together, not visions of the good times but the times that lead us to here. I have no illusions things were not great and as we both were it was never going to work. I have worked on me but she at the moment she is just trying to push her problems aside. If she doesn't want to work on her then we will never work.
So ask yourself the question do you think 100% that you are DBing because you really want you W or because you don't want to start again and don't want to take family away from your children. I'm just asking the question because for myself I can't answer it. Not with a consistent answer anyway. What this women has done to me and the way she has treated me I think if kids weren't involved I have i would be like don't let the door hit you on the way out. So why should it be any different with kids? Hanging around in a bad situation for the sake of kids has to do more damage then moving on in healthy relationships and at some point will end in another BD.
So I guess my point is as hard as it is to swallow, I need to turn my ego off for a second and realize that right this minute as things stand I am far better off without my W. It hurts for sure but it is the only way.
There is a big difference between W moving out like mine did and W willing to hang around but tell you it's over and want D. I would love to say that I would have the balls to tell her to leave but push come to shove I don't know that I could. Even knowing like Gump that she is full steam towards D and will move out anyway. It begs one question though if she is full steam ahead with D why hasn't she moved yet? Has she said why she is hanging around?
Yes, I agree, there's is a big difference (see that validating!
- didn't even know what validating what 2 years ago!). I had both, W hanging around, telling me it's over spans pushing for a D whilst still at home - living like the mad Aunt in the Attic for 2 years. Any way zoom forward and she leaves. Following a conversation where she says you go or I go. I said, it sounds like a decision for you not me. She went. I get both sides. Lived both. You can't control either. I did tell her if it's that hard whilst I try then leave - several times. Eventually perhaps I did push her? Do I regret that 100% no. It helped my head and e kids - Noel battle ground now though - see my thread for update.
Why is she hanging around? They are defined by 2 things the WW in my opinion, guilt and resentment. Resentment becomes and addictive battle of spitfulness. She tries to engage you in this. As I have been advised by SH, CT et al, stay on track, it's her circus. Don't engage. Guilt is different. If she got, she know it looks wrong to the outside world. Why would a mother leave someone like you. A great dad, definitely not a monster. Perhaps a real catch - give or take normal behaviour. They know it looks like an affair. They k ow the look like a bad mother, slut etc (just paraphrasing). They also want to - you got it, numero uno "Eat cake". It's easier, comfortable, they can spew, get you to engage, help create a story about the monster husband, look like they are justified in leaving. Staying gives them time and money too.
This begs the question would I have left looking back with my time again? No. For the kids and me. They know I have a moral backbone and that she is the once that left, removed the wedding ring and perhaps one day they will work out that she had an EA, if not a PA with at least one man. They will also hopefully know that she put her before the kids and us soooo much.
Surfer.
No sh!t!
I am going to open the door and point to if there is even the mildest scent of this sh!t. "Sorry love, take it or leave it, my house, my rules!".
Surfer.
One quick one not sure if everyone gets the same thoughts as me but when I feel I am starting to spin the wheels and get consumed by it all. I rewind to when we were together, not visions of the good times but the times that lead us to here. I have no illusions things were not great and as we both were it was never going to work. I have worked on me but she at the moment she is just trying to push her problems aside. If she doesn't want to work on her then we will never work.
Okay, here's my take on a response to this. I do get such thoughts. I think it wasn't always bad was it? Then I think, yes, my W has always been a bit of a nutter. She has just got worse. A lot. She won't work on her as she thinks she is doing the right thing, IMHO. I am starting to think the only answer is to let her go and think - it might of cost me an awful lot of money, but hey, no more madness. Don't know. Still in the same boat as all of you. Give less of a sh!t.
She said something today, I validated what she said (I was wrong again for a change - yawn!). Something tiny - probably never happened. She said, "is that it no apology?". I just said, "yeah, looks like it".
Mental?
Surfer.
So ask yourself the question do you think 100% that you are DBing because you really want you W or because you don't want to start again and don't want to take family away from your children. I'm just asking the question because for myself I can't answer it
I can answer this. Your motives move with your feelings. Sometimes, you do it for love, sometimes for the love of your kids. Sometimes for financial reasons (fear), sometimes through anger - I'll show her stuff. You are allowed to have emotions. It's alright people sitting in Their ivory towers of peace being all zen like - but don't forget even the vets were in the eye of the storm for a good while whilst the shook with fear and get and confusion. Personally, though I do wonder if you really do have to turn off all feelings and contact (as much as poss)? But be with the kids as much as poss?
It's interaction with WW that pulls at your emotional strings. They try to make you join their circus. It's like they pop in, re- attach strings and make you dance like a puppet. Perhaps I am going to treat her like the pope treats the lepers - great PR stunt but please only once a year guys and only, and I am not getting too close!
Surfer
So I guess my point is as hard as it is to swallow, I need to turn my ego off for a second and realize that right this minute as things stand I am far better off without my W. It hurts for sure but it is the only way.
Your WW definitely. But who you thought your W was, I would say no. You fell in love with someone who she can be - problem is she doesn't want to play that character anymore. Perhaps she never will. So if that is the case, you are probably right I would say. But I am with Sandi on this. Unless they feel they have lost it all, what is the motive to change? Check out all that cake.....
Surfer.
what specifically you are not buying into about what Surfer said b/c of your kids?
He's been saying let her go. I agree, and I think I'm letting her go.
He's also said, "Life is better separate." And I agree, the best chance for our R improving -- if at all -- is for us to be separate.
It just doesn't feel like it's the best thing for my kids right now. Yes, things are very cool and distant between me and my W as we live together. But we do not fight at all, and we coordinate daily activities smoothly. So, from the kids perspective, splitting up the family will be a bewildering, confusing shake-up to their stable world.
I can't get over that. But I think I'm slowly getting there.
ForGump,
Don't even pay attention to 'it' (a potential separation). If it happens it does. Your R won't get worse. Just need to make sure you both act as good parents either way.
Surfer.
Gumbo, this is one of the hardest descisions you will have to make but you need to do what feels right for you and your kids. However if D does happen don't you think this will shake up their stable world even more?
I'm just thinking about your wellbeing and state of mind at the moment and how much stronger you will have to be for your kids if D does happen. It's not fair that she wants the D but you still have to make all the difficult decisions....
This is so well said. I'll come back to this when I have time, but this is so important to think about. I'm in this for a multitude of reasons, and they're intertwined. The thing about kids is, at least for me, really a paradox. My S is the reason I really got in gear and decided to fight for my marriage. But if I didn't have a child, I think my W and I wouldn't have lost focus on ourselves and let things deteriorate to the rate they did.
Again, this was a great post and I'll come back to it....
I'm following this closely as my situation is very similar. The resentment is very bad and results in "fighting."
This is so well said. I'll come back to this when I have time, but this is so important to think about. I'm in this for a multitude of reasons, and they're intertwined. The thing about kids is, at least for me, really a paradox. My S is the reason I really got in gear and decided to fight for my marriage. But if I didn't have a child, I think my W and I wouldn't have lost focus on ourselves and let things deteriorate to the rate they did.
Again, this was a great post and I'll come back to it....
RSG I agree. Is would never wish to imply that my son contributed to the S butt the stress of it all. Not sure it would have gone down this way. Bit, not much benefit to those thoughts.
So, being able to put a little more time into this....
Generally speaking, both spouses have to work in order for paths to re-cross. One of the issues is, we usually begin changes sooner and put more into them. For various reasons. The biggest being, if the wife doesn't believe she needs to change then there's no incentive for introspection. She will believe that, while she may not be making the right decisions on her own, she wasn't the one who ruined the marriage. And that, once D is final, she'll finally have the "space" and time to be happy again.
The bigger question albac poses is, why do we do this? I believe the initial motivation is the same for us all. We want our M back. But, as things go on....our reasonings branch out. Some days, it's for children. Sometimes it's for the M. Sometimes it's for self. Sometimes it's just to show that we are survivors, and that we don't NEED the W/M. I think this is natural. Different situations lead us to find different reasons to stay on the path.
If we get to our best, we realize that the most important thing is to work to not only be the man we were when our W fell in love. But to be even better than that, and to be excited and confident (but not complacent!) in who we are and what we have become. And to realize that, if our W don't want that amazing all around man, then we'll not only be ok but we can eventually find someone who does.
I've said before, the worst day of my life was when my W sabotaged me at the park with my S and said "I can't do this anymore, we're separated" and literally ran away from home. My S inspired me to pick myself up off the deck, to figure out the best way to fight for my M and our family. Looking at it objectively, it felt like a stab in the back but the God's honest truth is that if she DIDN'T leave we would be likely be divorced right now. The more I read from people living an in-home Separation, living apart seems like the only way to come back together.
I find it so much easier to work on myself without her here. And, I suppose I'm lucky in that my W is using this time to actively work on herself as well. I never thought she'd admit she needed to work on herself enough to go to Counseling. But she is. She's reading a book on how to create happiness within herself. And I've seen some changes in her speech/behavior. I can feel the changes in me, and I think they come out effectively. I know sometimes I use situations as a chance to practice some of the things I've been learning, like validation and listening.
I feel like I'm a better man already. I'm for damn sure no longer a doormat. And everyday is a challenge to be a better Daddy than I was the day before. I'm not where I'd like to be, but I'm confident I'm on the right path. I think if the W and I continue down this path, reconciliation IS possible. But that's the rub, you can't lose focus....you've got to keep the focus on you and your child and let your W continue on her journey.
Why do I do this? Because I don't want to be a good man, I want to be a great one. I want to be the kind of Daddy people use as an example. I want to find that happiness within myself. Because I love my S unconditionally, and I want him to know Daddy stood for his family. And, yes, because I love my W.
Long post, but I think everyone can get something from it. This journey isn't easy for us. It's not fun. IT IS WORK. But nothing worth working for is easy.
Wow, RSG, what an excellent post. I think we get so lost in the day to day drama with our WWs that we all lose focus on what the goal of this thing is. It seems like the quicker we get back to that focus, the easier everything is. Slowly learning that lesson on my end thanks to all of you.
Be the best man possible and if WW still doesn't come back it's her loss. Easy to say, tough to do. We should all be working our butts off to get there though! Again, great post!
RSG - that was so good, I do not even know where to begin or where to end. You are going to make a fantastic old guard one day. Spoken like a true "been there".
ForGump, hope you are alright my friend.
I'm tired, man. Tired of everything. Tired of trying. Which is not to say that I'm going to file for D. I don't have the energy to file for D. I don't have the energy to DB, detach, GAL, etc. At least not in a very deliberate way. I'm just living my life, day by day.
I love my kids. I don't have to be deliberate to want to spend time with them and enjoy it. And I like exercising, music, friends etc. So I don't have to motivate myself to do those things.
So I'm just going to live. I'm just going to ignore her requests to work on the D papers. Ignore, ignore, ignore til she gets freaking angry. When it becomes utterly unavoidable, then I'll do it.
Had a decent weekend. Lots of time w/ kids, took some time for myself to go surf with a buddy. But I'm not feeling good.
I hear you on the energy side of things FG. It's easy to get exhausted during all of this, especially when the emotions are on overdrive.
Glad you got some time to surf and enjoy the kids this weekend. That's what life is all about. Spending time doing things you enjoy w/ people you love.
I'd offer that living day by day is probably, in essence, DB'ing so long as you're not focusing on things you can't control. Hang in there brother. Keep up with the folks here bc they're excellent support to help you through this thing.
By the way, I tried surfing one time and it was an absolute disaster. think I got up for like 2 seconds one time and having no balance I plummeted right back into the water. Good thing I'm a decent swimmer bc I'm positive that surfing and I don't mix!
I know all about that exhaustion, Gump. I just got back from a trip out of town. It didn't help my sitch at all, but it was nice just getting a break from things on the home front. Do you have any ability to take a long weekend away?
Hey FG,
We all get to feel like how your feeling. It does go away. Just feel it acknowledge the way your feeling and let it go.
Yes doe the things you love, the stuff that is easy to do. That is a good place to start you moving.
As for the work to D, let W do it, ignore if that is what is best for you and your kids. When the airplane is having trouble you put your oxygen mask on first so you can be there for those kids.
When she does get angry tell her you are doing what is best for you and your kids right now, what she wants is not a priority for you right now.
I think you are doing good. The down days come with the good days and by doing things you want to do you will have more good days.
Do you have any ability to take a long weekend away?
I could probably do it... but haven't really felt the desire, to be honest. I'm on the precipice of losing 50% of my time w/ the kids, and I work FT already so I'm not itching to see even less of them. But maybe it'd be good for me. I don't know.
I have some work trips coming up, so I'll be away for several days on my own in a different city. Those are fairly relaxing for me.
I hear you. It gets tiring. I keep my son 90% of the time, and so many days I inadvertently take a power nap at the same time he falls asleep. I love it, but being on from 6AM to around 9PM with no help for 6 days is tough.
I don't have much time or energy to go out, but I do make time to cook a new recipe weekly.
You're doing well. Let her do the lifting, it's no your cross to bear!
I have some work trips coming up, so I'll be away for several days on my own in a different city. Those are fairly re
Sounds ideal. Why not stretch it out by half a day or a day and fit a bit of sight seeing in. Gumbo style
Surfer.
Journaling and Mind Reading:
Over all a good weekend. Took the kids to the beach on Sat with some friends, had a great time. Even took about an hour to be out in the water by myself, which felt magical and therapeutic. Don't know what MLC-WW did the whole day while we were gone, didn't ask.
Now for the mind reading part of the program: I noticed yesterday that she offered to make a plate of breakfast for me while doing the same for our son. And says I should take a nap (because I'd been up very late working to meet a deadline). What??? She's thinking about me now? But then in the afternoon she mentions that I should check out this sports-related Meetup group. That stabbed me in the heart, because we have a friend who divorced and eventually met someone great through Meetup, and, prior to all our recent marriage problems, she (my W) has mentioned many times in conversations with people how Meetup is a better way for single people to meet than online dating websites. I left the room immediately because I just could not stand being there.
But this morning when discussing after-school activities for our son, she says we need to have dinner together as a family more often, because some of the after-school activities are getting in the way. She also mentions how we need to go live in a developing country for a while so that our teenage D can see how ridiculously spoiled and self-obsessed Americans are. These are the first mentions of staying together as a family and future-talk I've heard in months.
When you're sitting out past the breakers waiting for waves, it feels like you're fairly stationary, but after a while you realize how much you've been pulled along by the current. You can see this clearly when you surf near a cliff or rocks -- you see yourself moving respect to a landmark. Not only do you realize that you're being pulled along slowly by a current, you also realize that with every surge of wave, you're washing back and forth, even if the patch of water you're on is flat and smooth, and the waves themselves aren't breaking on top of you.
My brain is in overdrive trying to mind read, but I realize it's futile. I'm adrift and don't know which way the current is flowing. My heart wants to feel hope, but I can imagine my MLC-WW simply making a new effort to divorce me in a different way.
It's like what you-all say. I can only control what I can control: me. Someone going through MLC with the baggage of lifelong psychological issues isn't going to get to a healthy place overnight.
ForGump - keep the clean boxers on. My W would go through phases where everything looked normal too.
The "future talk" though - if she was serious about it may well be positive. I never got any of that, just the sad "you're a moron" look whenever I talked about anything in a future that had an "us".
Sometimes the waves drop trash on the beach, other times they sweep the beach clean.
Clean boxers every day, AndrewP. Sick of being on edge, but I guess that's why it's a fight.
I can't believe what a fricken fight it is every day. I can't believe the animal instinct I have for her. Is it just an illusion? Once I move on, I'll forget? I know I will. Just doesn't feel true at this point. Just rip off that bandaid. Except the bandaid feels like it'll rip the heart out at the same time. Maybe easier once I'm not bathed in her pheromones every day. Maybe there's a way to just turn off my male brain. Thus why I like the night, to just fall asleep and be free.
The small uptick in her warmth feels good in the moment, then my mind reels and I become afraid of all the possibilities.
Clean boxers on. Expecting the worst BD: to be served. Or is there something even worse. Yeah, probably.
I can talk BD and give myself all the peptalk til the cows come home but when actual BD's happen ... they are crushing. Hit by a ten ton boulder, and you float away from your crushed self.
I know, I know ... BD, be strong, fight, etc... for me it's no fight. It's just ... endure.
Oh Gump, your spidey senses have been right in the past re another BD. I just hope they are broken this time and picking up seagull noise!!
I appreciate your chirp, Coly.
I have no confidence in my ability to mind read.
Weird to go from feeling like your marriage is something you believe in unconditionally, something permanent ... to have it be an unknown black creature, some capricious thing that will turn and bite you and tear you to pieces.
I've given up mind reading - moods come and go, some days I get polite some days I get complete coldness... she picked us up from the airport a few months ago and the whole way home she's talking about what investments we should make and I just think to myself not right now. I avoid this future talk now I don't think she's accepted reality of the situation or if she has she's got her own warped view of what the future looks like (living alone/w OM but still reaping some of the benefits of marriage)
Definitely take some time for yourself, I've found it rewarding although I can see why you'd want to spend the time with your kids. I'm on the higher percentage (70%+) so when I get the chance to take a day here or there I grab it - and she's generally been accommodating unless she has previous plans.
Can you see if you can swap out another day to give you a few days in a row?
BTW Ring still on or off? I've taken mine off for short periods but keep putting it back on - feel naked/weird without it. She hasn't worn hers for over a year :-(
ForGump,
When you get on that work trip, you should challenge yourself to meet and speak with new people. Do you have any self goals for the trip? For example, my last work trip was in June - before the trip one of my self challenges was to speaking with whomever I was sitting next to. Do you have any good challenges set up?
CT-- I'm actually fairly comfortable socializing with people, even though I am indeed an introvert. And my work trip is all about meeting, discussing and networking with others, so there are lots of opportunities to be social. But being an introvert means that they do sap my energy, and by evening I just want to be by myself. But yeah, I have no problem talking to people I don't know.
Every day there are so many emotions swirling around in my head, in my heart ... I have to keep asking myself, why I am doing what I'm doing, and remind myself why I've decided to DB the best I can. I don't have high hopes, but I believe it's the right thing to do. In fact, I can't live with any other path for me and for my kids.
CT-- I'm actually fairly comfortable socializing with people, even though I am indeed an introvert. And my work trip is all about meeting, discussing and networking with others, so there are lots of opportunities to be social. But being an introvert means that they do sap my energy, and by evening I just want to be by myself. But yeah, I have no problem talking to people I don't know.
This describes me to a "T". I can converse with people with ease and not to brag, but most people really like me and would be surprised on how much I'm an introvert. My W is just the opposite. She gets wanderlust being by herself too long. When we were on happier terms she was the one who dragged me out of the house to do social events. I'm doing the forcing of my own now.
BTW, I lost track, but did you decide to keep wearing your ring?
Yes, took the ring off for a few days long ago but once I realized I need to do everything for me -- not for W or for anyone else's perception, not even my own kids -- I decided this is something that means something for me, and decided to keep it on. Glad I did. I will take it off if/when we are officially divorced.
PacLove -- I'm still doing in-house separation. So there isn't a structured agreement for taking care of our kids. I take my S to school, work M-F 9-5, then I go home and enjoy my time w/ my kids. Since I'm w/o kids M-F 9-5 and my work gives me a lot of freedom, I don't particularly feel a need to get away from my kids.
Every day there are so many emotions swirling around in my head, in my heart ... I have to keep asking myself, why I am doing what I'm doing, and remind myself why I've decided to DB the best I can. I don't have high hopes, but I believe it's the right thing to do. In fact, I can't live with any other path for me and for my kids.
Man, this just says it all, ForGump. I could have written it word for word if I could right as well. At this point, I have nothing I can point to that provides any real source of optimism that my W and I will be able to rebuild a marriage, and the demons come out a lot, yelling at me to just quit. I guess I'll know when it's time to do that.
Haha -- "right" should be "write" in the above. See what I mean?
After I put the kids to bed and I'm sitting by myself in an empty bed ... that's when I hear the demons.
When the W is treating me with anger and contempt ... that's when I hear them. That's when I tell myself, it's over, I can't do it no more.
Then I think about my kids.
That's when I hear them, too.
That might be when I throw it in, I guess: when I'm convinced the kids aren't going to do any worse living in two households with two loving parents than they would be under one roof with two parents who, although they try hard to fake it, and succeed most of the time, are really only capable of modeling for the kids what a bad relationship looks like.
I wonder about that too. We've been generally polite toward each other, but there's been no warmth -- and we were both very affectionate toward each other before. I wonder how much the kids see. And my W has been noticeably grouchier since the BD. My kids have definitely noticed that. But I don't think it will get any better if she got the D that she wants. I think much of her grouchiness is her natural state, as she is frustrated w/ her world, and it will only become more difficult if the D were to take place. I don't know, maybe if she found a new lover, during the honeymoon period she'd be in a happier place.
FG - Just tried to catch up on your sitch as some of the things you mention in albac's thread got me thinking. Your sitch is similar to what mine was, just a lot more civilized.
Just a quick recap. I was on this board back in 2008-09. My sitch got crazy but I had a lot of great people helping me. I ended up with full custody of my boys. Flash forward to where I am now. I ended up D'd at the end of 2009. It took a while. I am VERY happy in my life now. I am with an incredible woman now for 7 years who also went through a D. Biggest thing for me was trust after what I went through. Funny thing was when I met this woman the trust was there immediately and it was mutual.
I got to thinking that I wouldn't be where I am now without this place. Back in the day everyone here thought I was a success story because I got my kids. At the time I felt like a complete failure because I ended up D'd. For some reason the last few weeks I felt like coming back here and seeing how people are doing. It's amazing how so many stories at their core are so similar.
You stick out to me because of the in-house sep. I did that. It was BRUTAL. But your W seems pretty civilized. Mine was just angry. She was more angry with the kids than me at the time.
One thing I will say that someone here already said to you was if you want your M to ever have a chance you need some time apart. I can't agree more. Moreso because whatever she's going through she needs time alone to figure it out. The in house sep is not giving it that chance. And whatever you are doing to better yourself and take care of yourself she is to close to it. Probably is ticked off about it.
Last thing I wanted to mention is what you wrote early on in your threads about your physical relationship with your W. Man that hit close to home. In my M it always felt obligatory. Even early on when things were supposedly good. My XW always made me feel bad about wanting that. Now....so different. So hot and so much on the same page. It was an immediate connection and after 7 years it keeps getting better. I never thought I would be able to say that. But it is 100% true. We make time for each other even though we have 6 kids in the house. We make dates and most of all we really like each other. That is the basis of true love.
If I could say one thing that sticks out to me to you, it would to not be afraid of where the chips fall. You are a good man. No matter how this plays out you are going to be fine. It's easy to fall into a funk because you feel like someone is blowing up your world. But in my case my XW did me a huge favor. You can get busy living or get busy dying. Remember that line. Tough times don't last, tough people do. Get busy living. You can handle it.
Strength and Honor.
Mules
Mules-- I appreciate all that you wrote. It's thoughtful and insightful. There is indeed something common to human nature, and similar problems repeat. But it also sounds like good things also happen afterward, commonly.
If I did not have kids, I would have divorced. Completely disconnected from W and tried to recover. But with two fairly young kids, I just am not able to do it. It just feels wrong. Just as I am physically unable to punch my kids in the face, I am unable to physically make myself do anything on the D because it will hurt them. Many say kids will be OK, but I don't feel it. Many say it's better for the kids to live in two peaceful households -- but we are not fighting. Sure, my W is grumpy but we haven't had a single argument in front of them.
I can and do sometimes dream about being with someone kinder, healthier. So it's not like I don't understand that life can be good after the divorce. Just can't make myself hurt the kids right now.
Mules-- I appreciate all that you wrote. It's thoughtful and insightful. There is indeed something common to human nature, and similar problems repeat. But it also sounds like good things also happen afterward, commonly.
If I did not have kids, I would have divorced. Completely disconnected from W and tried to recover. But with two fairly young kids, I just am not able to do it. It just feels wrong. Just as I am physically unable to punch my kids in the face, I am unable to physically make myself do anything on the D because it will hurt them. Many say kids will be OK, but I don't feel it. Many say it's better for the kids to live in two peaceful households -- but we are not fighting. Sure, my W is grumpy but we haven't had a single argument in front of them.
I can and do sometimes dream about being with someone kinder, healthier. So it's not like I don't understand that life can be good after the divorce. Just can't make myself hurt the kids right now.
Completely understood FG. Believe me I was there. It took a loooong time for me to make that decision to serve. I actually talked long and hard to my parents and her parents before doing. Only you can make that decision and I would never suggest that to somebody. That's way too personal. And you know how long my son has been in therapy but he was privy to way too much of what my XW was doing. From what I have read your W has not behaved that way.
I just wanted to give you some support because I know how tough the in-house sep can be. You start looking at little behaviors as potential positives and you cycle back and forth. It can be mentally and emotionally draining. I just wanted to let you know that won't last forever and no matter what the outcome you will have a good life, either a better M or a second chance to get it right. Keep being you.
Strength and Honor.
Mules
Thanks Mules.
It hurts, and it hurts a lot. And I'm tormented in moments and on certain days. But the overall path I'm taking, I am at peace with that. I know I'm not able to make perfect choices but I know I'm doing all that I can, and no matter what happens I will be (mostly) at peace with myself and in front of the kids because I know I've tried to do what's right.
It would almost be easier if my W had outwardly bad behaviors. Then I could say, OK this is enough, kids are better off not to see this. (But then I'd be so sorry for the kids for having to see that stuff!)
Has your XW come back to her senses? Did/does she have any psychological issues? Substance abuse?
A mini-BD today: W asked me (again) to work on our DYI divorce paperwork. I told her, "I am not able to make myself look at it. I am returning the packet to you. I'm willing to answer all questions about our finances."
I've wondered if it would show some strength for me to do the paperwork for her, but I just can't get myself to do it. My IC thought it was OK to handle it this way. Why parent my W by helping her figure out the divorce paperwork?
(Well, one reason is to save money but ... at this point I want to say screw it)
Thanks Mules.
It hurts, and it hurts a lot. And I'm tormented in moments and on certain days. But the overall path I'm taking, I am at peace with that. I know I'm not able to make perfect choices but I know I'm doing all that I can, and no matter what happens I will be (mostly) at peace with myself and in front of the kids because I know I've tried to do what's right.
It would almost be easier if my W had outwardly bad behaviors. Then I could say, OK this is enough, kids are better off not to see this. (But then I'd be so sorry for the kids for having to see that stuff!)
Has your XW come back to her senses? Did/does she have any psychological issues? Substance abuse?
I can imagine the pain you are going through. What are you doing in terms of GAL? I don't mean once-in-a-while kind of things, I mean routine stuff. Do you go out with friends? I remember having to force myself to do that but once I did it became easier and most importantly felt good.
Your W is in an interesting case. Wants a D.. supposedly not attracted to you..still in the house...still being cordial...still being a good mother. Is she seeing a therapist??
My XW tried to call me about 3 years ago and apologize for everything and was pouring her heart out and crying. I stopped her and told her I had forgiven her but I had moved on with my life and was very happy and that she should be having this conversation with her significant other. We have been cordial ever since. It is amazing how I see her now. At times I find it amazing that I was ever attracted to her or I just don't remember her that way. We had been together 22 years and M for 17. She has psychological issues that she sees a therapist for. But I am not privy to them anymore. My kids relationship with her is not what you would hope for. They know who she is and remember how she behaved. She may have been abusing substances a while back, I'm not sure and wouldn't be surprised. Her OM was definitely in that world.
Strength and Honor.
Mules
A mini-BD today: W asked me (again) to work on our DYI divorce paperwork. I told her, "I am not able to make myself look at it. I am returning the packet to you. I'm willing to answer all questions about our finances."
I've wondered if it would show some strength for me to do the paperwork for her, but I just can't get myself to do it. My IC thought it was OK to handle it this way. Why parent my W by helping her figure out the divorce paperwork?
(Well, one reason is to save money but ... at this point I want to say screw it)
I think very simply, if you don't want the divorce and she does, then let her handle it. Just make sure you protect yourself. I know a lot of men who have deals they don't like at all. I was lucky. But I also spent every penny I had and a lot of pennies I didn't have.
Strength and Honor.
Mules
I have done some homework on this, so that I can protect myself.
ForGump - you've been expecting this for a while. You've got your clean boxers on and handled the situation with style and grace. She's got to put on her own big girl panties now.
Deep breaths and perhaps think of something you can do For Gump.
mulesqb - reading your post made me wonder - curious of the percentage of divorce for those who come her and have a live in vs. those who S via different places? Doubt there are any quantification floating around, but there are a few of us who all kinda got here at the same time. I know for myself and some other contemporaries, no way could see a live-in sitch, too dmn challenging. I feel much more likely to succeed while her and I are apart. Yes, apart, she has full mystery to see OM and act how she wants, but I am also pain free as I have the same mystery for her (even though for me there is no other except my little black dog, numerous pushups, and some textbooks). I am lovingly detached and not sure I would have made that if I remained in co-habitation. You have thoughts on what I've said? Thanks.
PS - congratulations to the happiness of where you life is now and I think it is very cool that you revisit here. I intend to do the same one day, for better or worse as they say.
FG -not a full hi-jack, my suggestions were that you speak with new people -BUT, my question was do you have any challenges planned for yourself? Great that you can speak with people - can you walk into a bookstore/music store/ coffee shop make eye contact for more than a few seconds with any woman, walk over and pay one single compliment that is flirty which gets a return comment, and then walk out on your terms leaving both smiling? Can you go for a jog along a new river shore at 5am get back to the hotel by 545, shower, shave dress, and still hit the 7am mixer breakfast in the lobby? Can you set a target to do anything that you have not done in this city before with the amount of time you have? When I travel its all business too - I keep either late nights, early mornings, or both - you can too. Time exists for you, you can find it, I believe in you. It may be simple like read instead of watching tv, try anew cologne on the trip, where your tie knot different or no tie, but dude - do anything, do anything new and challenging for you big small - for you. Your reply to me above was excusing what I suggested into oblivion. Really, get some of you.
AP -- thanks for the cheerleading. I need it. Clean boxers, every day now.
CT -- no, I cannot flirt w/ random women in bookstores. And I certainly cannot get up at 5am to jog! But your point is well taken. Stretch my wings, see what that feels like. It will be hard for me -- because right now things just don't feel right for my kids -- but I will try.
AP -- thanks for the cheerleading. I need it. Clean boxers, every day now.
CT -- no, I cannot flirt w/ random women in bookstores. And I certainly cannot get up at 5am to jog! But your point is well taken. Stretch my wings, see what that feels like. It will be hard for me -- because right now things just don't feel right for my kids -- but I will try.
Wasn't CT's advice for your work trip? Your kids won't be with you, right? So there should be no reason you can't stretch yourself a bit to do something just for you.
mulesqb - reading your post made me wonder - curious of the percentage of divorce for those who come her and have a live in vs. those who S via different places? Doubt there are any quantification floating around, but there are a few of us who all kinda got here at the same time. I know for myself and some other contemporaries, no way could see a live-in sitch, too dmn challenging. I feel much more likely to succeed while her and I are apart. Yes, apart, she has full mystery to see OM and act how she wants, but I am also pain free as I have the same mystery for her (even though for me there is no other except my little black dog, numerous pushups, and some textbooks). I am lovingly detached and not sure I would have made that if I remained in co-habitation. You have thoughts on what I've said? Thanks.
Hey CT - Interesting you bring that up. Back in my day that was a big question and topic for discussion. Overwhelming answer was to separate. I know for me the minute she moved out (and I really mean minute)the entire house decompressed. It was unreal because she was at such odds with my kids. Don't get me wrong, they were sad but in no time they realized it was a much better living arrangement. But in my case they were always with me full time, even before I won full custody.
I do remember at one point I moved out of our bedroom and was sleeping on a futon. My boys really had a hard time with that. But I got ridiculed here about never leaving your bed so I went back. When I did she moved into the basement. That felt like such a victory and set the tone for me as a leading man. I also know that she was not happy with the arrangement either. She wanted complete privacy to do whatever it is that she was doing and certainly didn't want me knowing. So living in that sitch was extremely difficult and drove an incredible wedge between us. The more I saw what she was up to the more I didn't like her and started to lose feeling for her until eventually I was done.
PS - congratulations to the happiness of where you life is now and I think it is very cool that you revisit here. I intend to do the same one day, for better or worse as they say.
Thanks - It's hard for me to spend a whole lot of time here but lately I have just been feeling very thankful for all the people that helped me. Wanted to just come back for a bit and see if I could help anyone. Love seeing the integrity, strength and honor that all you guys are showing. You're all going to be ok. I just remember the fear of the unknown and wanted to put minds at ease. I think that will help with DB efforts. That fear made me make so many mistakes.
Mules
Wasn't CT's advice for your work trip? Your kids won't be with you, right? So there should be no reason you can't stretch yourself a bit to do something just for you.
I just mean that in my current frame of mind, where I'm worried about my kids, it's hard for me to go behave like a single man. I'm just not feeling that kind of freedom.
(Mules -- glad you came back to help us. Your voice means a lot to me.)
EA implies there was a two-way exchange of emotions.
PA implies there was romantic/sexual physical contact.
I just saw someone use "IA" in this forum: imagined affair. That seems to imply that the person was cognizant that it was just imagined in his/her head.
My wife imagined an affair but she believes emotional exchange actually took place. She had a delusion. She hallucinated it. Is that a "DA"? "HA"?
I AM OK DIVORCING MY WIFE
MY KIDS WILL BE OK AFTER I DIVORCE MY WIFE
I'm going to keep repeating this until I believe it
I took the IA term to mean a one-way EA, meaning one party (and for us here, it would be the walkaway/wayward spouse) participates in it, views it and feels it as an EA, maybe even wants it to go PA, but the affair "partner" doesn't return the emotions/feelings.
So, all the infidelity of a typical affair from the LBS' perspective, but maybe slightly better because it might give the wayward the sense that (s)he isn't such hot $hit afterall because he/she couldn't get the partner interested?
I AM OK DIVORCING MY WIFE
MY KIDS WILL BE OK AFTER I DIVORCE MY WIFE
I'm going to keep repeating this until I believe it
I'm getting there re your first line; still not there on the second, by a large measure. Stuck.
I took the IA term to mean a one-way EA, meaning one party participates in it, views it and feels it as an EA, maybe even wants it to go PA, but the affair "partner" doesn't return the emotions/feelings.
I think in most cases person doing the IA ***knows*** that the affair partner isn't reciprocating. For example, I can have a torrid IA with Natalie Portman but I know she isn't reciprocating.
But what would you call it if I ***actually believed*** Natalie Portman was reciprocating in some fashion? Is it still just an IA? Or is it a DA/HA?
It would probably mean you need to get with an IC, stat.
I just mean that in my current frame of mind, where I'm worried about my kids, it's hard for me to go behave like a single man. I'm just not feeling that kind of freedom.
If it comes to that, you will know when it's time. And you will want to.
Strength and Honor
Mules
I AM OK DIVORCING MY WIFE
MY KIDS WILL BE OK AFTER I DIVORCE MY WIFE
I'm going to keep repeating this until I believe it
With you as their Dad, I have no doubt your kids will be ok. Don't buy into the kids are resilient BS. They are all affected in some way and deal with it differently. It seems to me some of them internalize feelings and bring out in negative behavior. As a parent once you recognize that is going on, it's heckuva lot easier to parent.
Mules
I find DB-ing to be schizophrenic. In front of my MLCW, I'm Mr Cool-As-Cucumber. Driving to and from work, I'm sobbing at red lights, pounding on my steering wheel.
ForGump - I pulled this off of JRuss's thread. I know this story in spades. Cool-As-Cucumber I had problems with while W was at home but the oddest things even now set me off.
I broke down sobbing on Tuesday because at the coffee shop (where I hadn't gone for months - no appetite) the staff missed me and one came out to give me a hug. I made it out in one piece but then the pieces all fell apart when I was in the car - all over a friendly hug and a GD cookie.
Don't feel bad about the tears my friend.
I don't feel bad about crying. Feels good in some ways. Obvious things make me cry -- usually kids and parents interacting in a certain way that resonates with me -- but yeah, strange things set me off too at random times.
Oh heck, I hear certain songs (used to be "our" songs) and break down about once a week listening to the radio on the way to work. I've decided to give myself a green light to break down every now and then, after all, sometimes you just gotta let it out to stand strong again.
Usually movies or TV shows that get me when I see some sort of romantic scene or when infidelity is weaved in to the plot. Lots of triggers out there for sure. And whether we move on or reconcile we need to use this time to learn how to deal with them to make us strong.
Alright ForGump, it will be hard for you, but you did not say impossible. So lets get low...what is it going to be? You said it is coming soon, what is it going to be? Tell me anything "I usually drink water, but on this trip I will drink only Pepsi or Apple Juice" or I usually make the hotel bed, but what happens if I don't?" I am not being sarcastic, but you have been resistant. Do one thing, one thing new, any one small thing - you will be fully and completely alone in an unfamiliar city, you said this yourself as a positive - what is that going to be?
Hope you are well buddy.
CT, not sure exactly what you're getting at but I'll play along.
I'm a bit of a vagabond in spirit, traveler, so when I go to a new city (I haven't quite been to this particular city before, although I've been to one adjacent just 25 miles away), I like just walking the city blocks. Go any where. I like getting a public transit pass, and pick a semi-useful destination (park, some interesting store, restaurant) and just hop on/off buses/trains to get there. I like finding hole-in-the-wall mom/pop ethnic restaurants to eat at.
And I have no problem just cutting out from my official schedule, and just hitting the road. So I'll probably do that. Doing so isn't new for me, but I will be seeing new places by doing so.
I also like browsing at bookstores, small arts/crafts kind of stores, getting a cup of coffee at a random coffee house...
Does that work?
I like motion.
I updated my signature to note that my W is a mix of MLC, BPD (borderline personality disorder) and WW. I'm never fully satisfied with labels, and I believe that while these categories are helpful, people don't always fall clearly into one category or another.
Also changed my sig to say that she had a delusional affair (DA). She carried on a one-way emotional affair where OM did not reciprocate in any way, and she believes to this day that there was a relationship. I believe delusional thinking (psychosis) is common among BPD sufferers.
I'm very sad to write this about my W.
A mini-BD today: W asked me (again) to work on our DYI divorce paperwork. I told her, "I am not able to make myself look at it. I am returning the packet to you. I'm willing to answer all questions about our finances."
I've wondered if it would show some strength for me to do the paperwork for her, but I just can't get myself to do it. My IC thought it was OK to handle it this way. Why parent my W by helping her figure out the divorce paperwork?
(Well, one reason is to save money but ... at this point I want to say screw it)
I've been slacking in keeping up with everyone this past week, but I'm taking the same tact FG. Let the W drive pushing this thing forward if it's what she wants. Don't stand in the way if they do push it, but don't do all the work for them. I think that shows your strength to her.
That said, do protect yourself and be knowledgeable like everyone else said. Knowing you though, I'm sure you've already done this to a large degree.
Mules, your posts are very helpful for all of us in-house S folks. It's nice to see someone who has survived and thrived after the "joys" of in-house S. Very stressful 24/7. It seems like we are all destined to be more hardened and stronger when we come out on the other side. I also worry about trust in the future, but it sounds like you've figured it out.
FG keep being strong brother. You're doing good things, keep it up!
CT, not sure exactly what you're getting at but I'll play along.
I'm a bit of a vagabond in spirit, traveler, so when I go to a new city (I haven't quite been to this particular city before, although I've been to one adjacent just 25 miles away), I like just walking the city blocks. Go any where. I like getting a public transit pass, and pick a semi-useful destination (park, some interesting store, restaurant) and just hop on/off buses/trains to get there. I like finding hole-in-the-wall mom/pop ethnic restaurants to eat at.
And I have no problem just cutting out from my official schedule, and just hitting the road. So I'll probably do that. Doing so isn't new for me, but I will be seeing new places by doing so.
I also like browsing at bookstores, small arts/crafts kind of stores, getting a cup of coffee at a random coffee house...
Does that work?
I like motion.
Yes it does buddy - that is all I was driving at. I believe you misunderstood me greatly when you and Rose had an exchange:
Wasn't CT's advice for your work trip? Your kids won't be with you, right? So there should be no reason you can't stretch yourself a bit to do something just for you.
I just mean that in my current frame of mind, where I'm worried about my kids, it's hard for me to go behave like a single man. I'm just not feeling that kind of freedom.
Rose888 was spot on - why not stretch a bit? I was not referring to living like a single man, I was referring to expanding your own challenges. So now that I know going on trips and exploring is something about you that is normal, what could you do that isn't? Would it be going to a movie a lone, going to see a local band by yourself, or simply engaging a woman in a way that makes her smile?
I like the making a woman smile for a reason - you are a man, men feel a burst of confidence when they make a woman smile, and I would bet this might be a challenge. It does not have to be superficial or ulterior - just believe in what you say and you will succeed. You did not need to do such things when you had no reason to doubt your M, but now such a small exchange you may find helpful.
I will even give you two things to say, you can easily mean them genuinely (and should). You can make it easy and say them to a cashier or someone in front of you in a line : when finishing up with a cashier, say something really unique - instead of "Have a good one" or "Thanks, have a nice day", make direct eye contact and smile slightly and say "I really hope the rest of your day is amazing. Take care" You know who doesn't say that - everyone else but you, and thus you win a smile. Here is another, when you check into your flight or your hotel, chose the line with a female employee, when wrapping up, direct eye contact and a slight smile say "I bet your job is really challenging and I just want to say that you were really helpful and I appreciate it. Thank you for that". This is really EASY, but can be a challenge and you accomplish three things: you practice direct eye contact, you practice self confidence in an are outside of work, and (most important) because you meant what you said, you made someone smile, which makes both of you feel good.
FG, you are in a crisis of self-confidence and pain right now. Maybe just try one of my suggestions just once and note how it makes you feel. If you try it and it makes you feel better, imagine if you could behave that way every single day - with confidence, with honesty, with deliberate positive attitude. Believe me or don't, tell me you feel bad for your kids or don't, I am telling you that what I suggested above, I did that, and it works. It works one very small step at a time, it combines with other things, and the change comes man. You need something for FG right now. Try it on one of those mom n popp restaurant waitresses mid-meal: waitres,"How is everything" FG, "You know these greens are so good I bet they'd make a puppy pull a freight train, I'm doing really good. Thank you" Now that is a true southern boy example, but it makes a smile every time, yes its a silly thing to say, but unique. Try it, eye contact, smile, something the person would not usually hear, wins a smile. You are not single, you are a human, you can make a difference to others and to yourself. That is what I was getting at - challenge your self.
Mules, that was exactly the answer I was curious about. Tanks for taking the time to post it.
Big development tonight.
I'd been talking to FIL about my MLC-BPD-WW about my situation. He slipped in her presence, and W confronted me. At first I lied but felt terrible. I made an emergency call to my IC, and she encouraged me to come clean but stop beating myself up. So I fessed up. W is extremely angry. I feel like we've turned a corner and are now headed straight and clearly for a divorce. I feel a weight has been lifted.
I am still very sad for my kids.
Sorry I haven't been around much Gump,
I've been trying to clear my head of all this. Try not to think about it much. I have realized in the light of basically what was my entire life falling part around me that things that seem big and significant with time will be not so important. I know easier said then done but we are in the same boat my friend.
In my W's mind we are divorced without doing the paperwork. She is in a relationship with another man. It hurts. You will feel enormous pain for yourself and your children. But we can NOT change it. No matter what we do.
So as hard as it is and believe me I know. Try to keep yourself healthy. Mind-body-spirit. It's all we have!
I think I went around the same corner this weekend, ForGump, albeit under different circumstances.
I know DB doctrine says no talks with relatives, but what was your sin, really -- caring and talking with someone who also cares deeply about her? She's going to twist it around because she has to keep making you out to be the problem and the reason for all of her unhappiness, but it's bull$Hit, man. Try not to let it impact how you feel about yourself. You're a good man trying very hard to stand for your kids and your marriage under essentially impossible conditions. That is good and noble. If it wasn't this, it would have been something else. Keep your head up.
Albac/JR-- thanks for your words of encouragement. It helps.
I'm going to try to work w/ my W on the DIY divorce papers. I no longer have the will to stay in our current situation, in in-house separation.
I don't know what to call it, but I need to separate and get to a healthier place for me.
I am still sad for my kids, but I believe the environment in our house is getting darker as time passes, and I have to choose the better of two bad choices.
ForGump - very sorry to read about this. I would suggest, via your own words, if going to S will get you to a healthier place, how could that be one of two bad choices?
Key word is choice - sound like you are facing having to make the one that is right for you, but your write sometimes like you have no choice.
I wish you piece tonight my friend.
sorry, should say I wish you peace. Man...auto spell checks really try don't they.
Remember, you cannot control your W's response, you can only control your reaction to her. So you slipped up and broke a DBing rule. Frankly it shouldn't be the end of the line for you. Keep doing the process and make yourself strong and confident. When she rages just stay cool and detached, validate but don't agree.
Wait a week and stay away from W as much as possible. Give yourself time and headspace. Go do some serious GALing and revisit your feelings and thoughts after 7 days.
CT-- it's a good choice for me I suppose, but a bad choice (direction) for my kids.
PsySara-- thanks for your thoughts & reminders. I'm guessing you're a psychiatrist, and are familiar w/ BPD. I think if my W did not have something as serious as BPD, I may not have done what I'd done. I just felt w/ BPD ... it just did not seem like anything would get better unless BPD was addressed. I'd appreciate your thoughts on this.
I'm going to look for a BPD specific forum.
Journaling:
A handful of email exchanged w/ W about R, she spewing, me pointing out her delusions.
At 4:30 I get a message, "Any ideas for dinner?" I make friendly suggestions for what I can cook, and she picks one.
I p/u groceries, p/u son @ soccer, make dinner, then clean up. W watches videos on laptop.
Is it DB? Dunno. Does it matter? Not really, at this point. All a storm in a teacup. All is just little picture. D will happen and W will see the big picture, then... who knows.
Seems like nice gestures to me. Others will likely say you were being Mr. Nice Guy. All of this stuff is impossible. I like your idea of just doing what feels right, then and there.
Seems like nice gestures to me. Others will likely say you were being Mr. Nice Guy. All of this stuff is impossible. I like your idea of just doing what feels right, then and there.
JRuss
I am not going to comment on FG being nice or not, if his W has a mental disorder - that is entirely a new ball game in terms of response. However, this stuff can seem impossible - and perhaps what will be will be. But the one thing which is not impossible is doing our best to become our best, given the situation, that is DB, or a rose by any other name.
FG - my first wife was diagnosed with BPD. I am highly familiar with what living with one feels like. However, before diagnosis, she was a liar, a cheater, a con artist, and an alcoholic at 28 years old. She was in no MLC or any type zone. We had no kids and I was only 30, broke, and miserable. I had nothing to do but gain and the desire for D was mutual. However, I did not make myself better in the process, it ended and I blamed her for years. I don't think I fully forgave her until this year when life forced me to take a very hard look at myself and how I have been in the past, who I am today, and who I want to be.
Listen though, all of you, the DB process is intended to make you better. To make you better as a communicator, as a negotiator, at living your life, at knowing your goals, at how to plan, at how to set objectives, at how to make choices. The hope is that by doing so, you can attract your spouses back too, but that if you cannot, then you are still a better person.
There are way too many variables in the human psychology for a one size fits all solution. DB'ing is only a model among many of an approach you can take to potentially saving your R's & M's. Yet, DB recognizes that one thing will remain consistent among all of these variables - you. You are the one who can change you. Period. There will be no enlightenment for that which you do not seek. There will be no reward for those who do not work. There will be no gain for those who do not self-motivate.
In terms of actions towards our spouses - if you read deep enough here, some say play nice, some say play hard. I do not know what is correct - I have found older posts here where people played nice and got back together, conversely, there are those who played hard and got back together. I think the only answer is what do you do for you that keeps your dignity, moves you forward as a growing soul, and improves your life.
People compliment me greatly here for my efforts on my sitch, and I truly appreciate that. But I do get tired. I have gone through so many emotions there was a pre-teen rainbow shooting out of my arse for most of the summer. I got to detachment, but still, I am a human - I can still feel let down, mad, or tired. I still ask "Am I making the right choice?" and have to re-read the reasons I wrote down months ago about shared values, desires, and benefits. I do not know if my R will ever be again, much less my M. I don't. I do know this, I am on a journey for myself - not to become emotionless, not to feel apathetic, not to blame. My journey is to become better so that I may be able to have benefit to others in a way which improves this world somehow - I can only do this if I feel good about me, fix me, and focus me.
So that part of DB, those last few paragraphs...let there be no confusion about that. That is why you are here. You came to win your spouse back, you discovered how to win yourself back.
I wish all of you love and peace of heart today. FG - chin up, right now, chin up. I do get it, I have empathy, but chin up, spine straight, shoulders back.
Just checking in to see how you are doing Gump?
I know how you feel about beating yourself about about backsliding. At the time if seems like the end of the world but after a few days it loses its power.
I like that you just carried on a did dinner after your W did lots of spewing at you . You are a great H and a great Dad, not ever forget that!
I'm not feeling well. I think of this as a long-term response, as in things that were set in motion a long time ago are coming to fruition now. I accept it. It doesn't feel good. I also understand it will get better with time.
As for my behavior, my W may well see me as a nice guy and a doormat, but you know what, I don't care. I'm going to do what I'm going to do. I'm certain that what I do about dinner is not going to change my W's mind. I'm convinced BPD is driving her warpath to D, and it just doesn't matter whether I'm a nice guy or not. Her brain needs a hit, a hit of euphoria from being wanted and pursued by someone new, and I can DB until the cows come home but I'll never be able to give her the drug hit she needs.
The only way she might see things differently is for her to come down from her high. Even then, she might not see me as most normal people would.
ForGump - I believe I've been called a "nice guy" and a few other words on these forums as well.
We can both be proud to hold our heads high for the efforts we have made. One of the things I did that seems similar to your own personality is that I treated my W with respect and courtesy even during the darkest of times. I can recall only two times when I ever raised my voice to her, once when I found out about OM "why the [censored] are you still here?" and once when she told me that instead of going out with friends like she earlier that she was going to OM (I threatened to take off my wedding ring and she backed down).
What I think we can both say though is that when they walked / walk out of that door that they will know that they left behind a kind, decent man who loved them dearly and who would move heaven and earth if only to see them smile one more time.
------
It's a bit sad for me these days on the forum. Even though I still think of myself as a "newbie" and I am, sometimes I feel like a vet. Over the last 6 months I've seen quite a few people come and go. A small number have indeed started the path towards reconciliation but we seem to have a current "bump" in the group that feels like / is giving up. That's just the nature of these things I suppose that there are spikes in arrivals and departures just like everywhere. ForGump - I was very impressed when you joined our group here. You were burning for answers, open and willing to help others (and still are) and generally positive and optimistic. You and CT1118 changed the tone of the whole forum with your detailed researches, thoughtful answers. I must admit that reading what you wrote helped give me strength when I needed it. Prior to that much of the feedback I was getting on Newcomers was "GAL", "detach", "move on" (which I interpreted as give up). I was getting very disheartening. Even though I am positive you'll hang around for a while, I just wanted to say "thanks".
Just to close I think it was Cadet who posted on someone's thread something to the effect
"You only have to give up when they pile dirt on you".
AndrewP, I had the same thoughts today about the 'bump' in the current group. I want so much for one of us to start the road to piecing because I think it will give the rest some hope which st the mo end is definitely lacking.
But I also agree that we shouldn't give up!
There is some dark times. There is also some v inspirational people. I find a lot of similarities with psysara both ourselves and our wh. She has had many ups and downs, but she is holding up great.
It is super hard not to give up, but I guess we just need to continue working on us. If it hadn't been for this site, I'm sure I'd be a super teary depressed woman barely getting through the day.
ForGump, Coly23, AndrewP, Cherry...so much in the above. And bless all of you for the support that has been offered. This is the hardest GD thing I have ever faced, and as I believe you all have read my tale, that is no small statement. FG, hold your head up high. If this experience led you to do one great thing, you have helped me on my own journey. But you have done many great things, so don't stop there. There is nothing wrong with nice guys, I am one of them. You have shown nothing but strength to this point; even coming here and bleeding showed strength. Imagine how few of us come here and speak to the most despicable things in our lives, the greatest trespasses, and the issues that others would die before they told, and then think of the many who don't. We came here wanting to have our marriages last in and era when they simply do not, not in greater numbers anyway. Simply fighting for this something to be proud of.
To be honest, most days I do not think I will make it. Somehow I just keep trying though, simple read like as Coly23 said:
But I also agree that we shouldn't give up!
.
Looking at things for what they are to you does not mean you have given up. Do not ever give up on yourself my friend - I do not think that you have.
Just know:
What I think we can both say though is that when they walked / walk out of that door that they will know that they left behind a kind, decent man who loved them dearly and who would move heaven and earth if only to see them smile one more time.
I am not sure they know that at the time of walking out, but they will know it one day, and they will be old enough to care about what they lost. Their search is longer than ours. Yes, they made us realize that we made mistakes too, but we understood to cure a headache, you do not remove the head.
Lastly, I can't speak for Cherry:
It is super hard not to give up, but I guess we just need to continue working on us. If it hadn't been for this site, I'm sure I'd be a super teary depressed woman barely getting through the day.
But I have to imagine that when she said that about this site, part of what made her not give up was your story, your words, and the affect you have had here thus far my friend. I know I would have meant it that way. This site has been the glue which held my pieces together many times. People like all of you.
If your W never sees you as normal again I think she is right. Normal these days is selfish, self-righteousness, and instantaneous experience - you sought the selfless, the self-equal, and the long run my friend - that ain't normal no more. I wish you the best night you can have.
Hey FG - Just checking in on you. You seem down. I just wanted to say that's ok and part of the process. When I felt like that I always thought of it as "mourning" the breakup of my old M whether or not I was going to reconcile later on.
It's ok to have down days. I actually hear some strength in some of the things you are saying.
For as long as I have watched this site the big question to me was always how long does LBS stay in limbo? What's long enough, and how do you determine that? I don't know the answer to that question. I just think every person has their point. I remember back in the day a very well respected poster named FIB posed the question about DBing and whether it was all worth it for the LBS to go on for potentially years in limbo with what could be false hope or a long journey to reconciliation.
I think after a point the LBS has to look within themselves and determine a few things...is the wayward spouse still a person you could love? Have they changed in a way that you can see a future together? Can you trust them again?
Then there are the personal questions about the person you are now.
All food for thought..
Keep being you.
Strength and Honor.
Mules
For as long as I have watched this site the big question to me was always how long does LBS stay in limbo? What's long enough, and how do you determine that? I don't know the answer to that question. I just think every person has their point. I remember back in the day a very well respected poster named FIB posed the question about DBing and whether it was all worth it for the LBS to go on for potentially years in limbo with what could be false hope or a long journey to reconciliation.
Someone on my thread gave me an excellent answer to this that I use regularly - sadly I can't recall who it was to give them proper credit.
The answer is 1 day.
This is a journey with many twists and turns and you can't know where it will end up. So what I try to do and what works for me is to wake up each day and decide if today is the day I'm going to stop waiting. If I feel myself wavering I search around for motivation, whether its Love, Duty, Compassion, History, it's all fuel to the fire that keeps me standing.
If on that one day I wake up and I am sure that I am done and can find no more fuel to keep me standing and know that no more fuel will be coming in the future, then on that day, I'll be done. That day hasn't come and may never.
This might not work for everyone, but it works for me.
Mules, AP, CT, everyone --
You all give me hope. Thanks.
Yes, I am down, and I'm OK with that. I know that I just need to get through this, and it just takes time. I forgive myself, and I'm going to do what I can to take care of myself and my kids.
How long does one wait around. My answer is zero. I think if you're really trying to become the best person possible, if you are truly detached, you just live your life as honestly and genuinely as you can.
Maybe that's too idealistic. I don't know.
I'm just going to try to be in touch with how I feel, what I want, and what my kids need. I'll know if I meet someone new and it feels right. I'm certainly not going to jump into any relationship -- especially not after all this.