So it's becoming clearer and clearer that the next step for me is to start Acting As If I'm going on without her - with the intention the actions will stick and become my new normal.
So let the new chapter begin.
On the whole I'm doing OK. I'm still struggling with focus on work so that is a work on progress. My appetite is up which is alarming as I've not been running in about two weeks. I sprained my ankle (doing something stupid on vacation), so I'm in recovery. I'm worried about putting on weight. I have been keeping up my dumbbells, push ups, etc - the running is the anchor of my fitness.
Today was a introduction for the Act As If
W and I were together for 3 hours today due to a medical appt for S10.
I let her know a week ago that S10 and I will meet her there, so we will not travel together (she lives quite close). While we waited, I was quiet and only spoke when she asked about about S15 and his plans, some of the improvements I've made around the house (she was very happy with them) and some larger family events, etc.
We were alone a couple of times during morning, I was quiet, positive and very still. She wanted to start making plans S10 during the new school year. I had at one point she started in on the conversation re: discuss upcoming plans for her and S10, dates, etc.
When I realized this is not acting as if.
I said to her, "We should leave this for one of our regular Saturday 30 min meetings - are we going to resume those?" We have only had one in 4 weeks. She replied with her usual, "I don't get to see S10 much and it takes time out of my visit". I simply stated, "I had proposed off days and later in the evening originally, when you countered with Saturday morning". She acknowledged her desire for the sat meetings - then said "let me know your thoughts about the meetings". Then went back to being quiet.
I will continue to make decisions about the house, the kids, etc on my own. If she chooses to get involved, I will let her in a little. I won't mention the meetings again, etc.
Let's see what happens.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2687818#Post2687818
Well had a few days of the new bigy biz. I've been acting as if. When W came over on Sat to take S10. She was very short with me. I was positive and optimistic when I had the chance. I had to chase her to get a document signed for our mtg renewal. She dodged my text - what else is new. I was zipped my lips. Got her to sign it.
I did my best of detaching and not let her bad behaviour impact me. I give myself a 7 out of 10.
When she dropped S10 off - I hardly spoke to her - just focused on getting S10 to bed.
I'm gonna keep on keeping on.
Who can help me. A little while ago I saw a post where someone had a very direct and to the point paragraph on how not to give your WS permission to date.
Can someone repost it or point me in the right direction.
I'm hoping that it will never come up, but I'd like to be prepared so if she catches me at a weak moment I won't respond like a 12 year old.
Hey thank you for stopping by my thread I will take a read of where you are at in your sitch later as I am about to head off to work today and I will repost later but for now I am thinking of you
Take care
Ghost
How are things in your corner bigy?
I hope you are doing well and getting some quality motorcycle time in these days.
I was just think about ya and how I had not heard from you in a bit.
You and your family are in my prayers.
SH:
Thanks for your post. The status quo is in place. I'm looking forward to school starting and getting some normal going.
I've been doing OK at detaching. As you know both W and I are good at not talking to each other. When she comes to see S10 we hardly speak.
Lately I've been focusing on moving us forward by me doing all the normal back to school stuff. Also, bigger ticket stuff too i.e. S15's new computer, upcoming birthday party and restarting family therapy sessions for the boys and I - D20 is welcome to come too.
Yesterday, she finally broke the silence. She wanted to revisit a decision that was made two months ago. I told her that now was not the time to do it and asked her to recommend a date and time that works. Well that went well - Then came the strike out. She wanted to put some treats she made in our fridge. Instead of being honest and saying I did not want her food, I'm in charge of the meals her. I chickened out. I said, we have enough food right now. She got upset.
It diluted into a conversation about when I need to talk about something she was unavailable and when she wanted to it was important.
We then went round and round about all the minor issues that I've been waiting for her to get back to me on i.e. car ownership, etc.
As I said earlier, for weeks we've not really spoken and I've just been making all the decisions for the boys without her.
The conversation then descended into some borderline relationship talk. Well we called it quits and I asked her to recommended she get back to me with a time and an agenda.
So, I'm dusting myself off and hoping to get back on my horse of keeping a safe distance and demonstrating that I'm going on without her.
Also, I'm looking for a quote about "not giving your spouse permission to date". Does anyone know where that is? I've seen it once before - but, I can't find it.
Put out an APB for Coconut, I believe it was he who had the good line re not giving your spouse permission to "date."
Bigybiz, here is the link to what I said to Altair about H wanting permission to date.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...750#Post2697750
Yep, tis me, the H and dating.
I do agree it is something you should be prepared for, to know how to react, what to say. You guys helped with that for sure. If (or when) it happens I will not freak out on him, I'll say what you guys constructed for me. And who knows where I'll be at in my own journey. I had a construct in my head- give space, we separate, each get IC, then look at MC, then see where we are. I still don't see where dating fits into that, I guess now? So date even before MC? The order of it is so backwards to me, it makes zero sense. Which goes back to the sudden bomb drop, oh, wait, you are saying things I have never heard that you were unhappy about for years? Uh oh, Altair is activated.
Also, dating after a breakup stinks. Part of me wants him to suffer through a few bad ones/rejections.
Coconut and Altair: Thanks for the ammunition. I'm hoping it does not come up but I want to be prepared. I'm more interested in sharing this with my children. I want them to know where I stand. I think they now what I believe, etc and it hurts when they tell me my marriage is over and that mom has a new life. I still need to show them the rules I live by.
Thanks
The dating convo svcks. My wh is ready to move onto that, and so proceeds with haste towards a d. I think personally, leaping into dating so soon after ending a m, or whilst still m is s recipe for disaster, but as you know, there is no logic to a waywards behaviour. The best thing you can do is prepare yourself for that convo and keep focused on you and your children, set a good example.
I stated to wh that I don't want partners introduced to the children. He disagrees, maybe it's a convo for me and L. I just don't see it as the right thing introducing people left right and centre with no regards to our children's thoughts.
You're doing great so far with your interactions with your w. Keep it up and keep looking after you
Celebrated my first birthday in 22 years without the W.
I forced my kids to spend the day with me and we had a great time. Started the day with breakfast with my folks, Church, watching the Blue Jays lose to Boston, dinner at a fab restaurant and finished it off with the first cake I've ever baked.
I printed off photos from the summer i.e. Toronto Indy, Vacation, Patio brunches, family picnics, summer camp, etc and provided the kids with bristle board, stickers, etc and asked them to make a collage(s). We now have an awesome physical memory of the summer.
It was a great way to talk and share about the summer.
I'm feeling good and the acting as if is slowly taking hold. I've had a couple of flare ups with W about things she used to do and now I'm doing. I need to get stronger at saying no thank you, I'm on it. So far, it's been a bit of verbal diarrhea - but she is getting the message and I've not backed down.
Despite the fact my MR is always on my mind, I think I'm doing a good job at showing her the consequences of her decision.
Happy birthday Bigy! Yea for having a lovely day with your kids, and for baking your own cake, boo for the Blue Jays losing on your birthday LOL. What flavor cake did you make?
It sounds as if you guys had a great summer and now you have the collage to remind yourself of all those great GAL activities. That's a great gift from your kids, and a great idea.
You say you need to get stronger at just saying no thank you. That's a good goal, "no" has always been hard for me to say to anyone, especially my ex. But you really do sound so much stronger to me already.
Are you sure you're still Acting As If? Sounds to me more like you're no longer acting!
Happy Birthday! Good job of showing her the consequences, it is hard when MR is on the mind but they need to respect your boundaries.
Celebrated my first birthday in 22 years without the W.
I forced my kids to spend the day with me and we had a great time. Started the day with breakfast with my folks, Church, watching the Blue Jays lose to Boston, dinner at a fab restaurant and finished it off with the first cake I've ever baked.
I printed off photos from the summer i.e. Toronto Indy, Vacation, Patio brunches, family picnics, summer camp, etc and provided the kids with bristle board, stickers, etc and asked them to make a collage(s). We now have an awesome physical memory of the summer.
It was a great way to talk and share about the summer.
I'm feeling good and the acting as if is slowly taking hold. I've had a couple of flare ups with W about things she used to do and now I'm doing. I need to get stronger at saying no thank you, I'm on it. So far, it's been a bit of verbal diarrhea - but she is getting the message and I've not backed down.
Despite the fact my MR is always on my mind, I think I'm doing a good job at showing her the consequences of her decision.
HAPPY BIRTHDAY bigybiz!!!!
A year wiser and better look'en eh?!
SO when you say you forced your kids to party with you do you mean force like the prison guard forces the inmates, or do you mean guilt trip the crap out of them as we fathers like to do?
LOL
Quick tip on saying "no thank you."
It does not require strength.
Simply deciding to say it with a loving attitude is all there is to it.
One you decide to do it, it comes naturally.
The verbal diarrhea's the best.
What can you do other than smile right?
You never want to debate with diarrhea eh?
Congrats on your successful first attempt with a cake.
Happy birthday again my friend.
RoasaLinda: Thanks for your post. Trust me I'm still acting.
The cake was chocolate, it turned out more like a brownie - very dense. I'm going to try again tonight to see if I can make it "lighter and fluffier".
Yes, I really struggle with letting her in to her old life. When I try and put up boundaries she responds with "I'm keeping her from her kids". This obviously resonates with me and makes me feel bad and I desperately want to give in and pursue.
But, I've been holding out not always strong. I know it's not coming out very nice and that probably feeds her anger, resentment, etc. I've go to keep it simple. On one occasion I responded with "You have chosen your path and now the kids and I are on another path". I think that is short and sweet. She responded with "I forced her to make this choice". I just left that alone.
I'll have to come up with a variety of the same sentiment so it does not sound like a broken record.
Hawker: Thanks for your post. Here is my question to you. Do I need to respect her boundaries? In every other aspect of our lives we are told to think outside the box, don't take no for an answer, etc, etc.
So if I choose to defy her boundaries but try and enforce mine is that a double standard? Is that good DB or bad DB? It's not come up yet, just a hypothetical? What's your thought?
I don't respect her decision to separate, so that in itself is defying her boundaries is it not?
Thanks for your advise and encouraging words SH.
Hawker: Thanks for your post. Here is my question to you. Do I need to respect her boundaries? In every other aspect of our lives we are told to think outside the box, don't take no for an answer, etc, etc.
So if I choose to defy her boundaries but try and enforce mine is that a double standard? Is that good DB or bad DB? It's not come up yet, just a hypothetical? What's your thought?
I don't respect her decision to separate, so that in itself is defying her boundaries is it not?
Food for thought bigy.
Agreement and respect are 2 different things.
You do not need to agree with her decision to separate.
But you must respect her decision.
If you are creating a double standard, then you misunderstand DB and all that is being advised to you.
Respect her boundaries as you expect her to respect yours.
Seek to understand what are boundaries.
This will clear up your questions here.
Hi bigybiz,
Just wanted to give a shout out to a fellow Ontarian.
I have not posted much in the past year.
Dia-mond
This past weekend (Sunday) I hosted a birthday party for S16. 20 of his friends took over our backyard. It was great to see and be part of his life - even as the hired help!!
Earlier in the week W and I had some flare ups, the key learning for me was when she told me that S16 told her that he did not want her to come to the party. Further, when she asked if she could make his cake (W is an awesome baker), he told her "No thanks - Dad is doing it". FYI I've made 4 cakes in my life - all part of the recipe testing.
S16 took these actions for his own reasons ( I did not bring it up with him). It could be he did not want to create a conflict between W and I, it could be he was not wanting mom involved, it could be...
I'm hoping that this could be the kind of loss W will need to experience to become remorseful. S16 is gentle, soft spoken, thoughtful, etc. I know it would hurt me immensely if any of my kids told me that I could not be at their "Big Birthday" and I did not do all the work on the day they arrived.
I know to expect nothing, I'm not competing and I certainly know that my kids attitudes and opinions will weave back and forth, but it's still a shot in the arm.
Wow two W-less birthdays this month! You're such a good dad to host this party for your son!
Bigy, our kids hear and see a lot more than we think. I bet your S16 told his mom that she was not welcome to his party because of the pain she has caused in his life, and his sisters' too. But on your making his cake instead of her - did it ever occur to you that he may have loved the brownie like cake you made for your own birthday? Yup, that's the one I would choose too
How did it turn out this time?
I hope you're right, and this WILL be a wake up call to your W to see the pain she is causing, and to feel remorse at the consequences of her actions. But maybe she's not ready. No expectations, as you say!
Acting as if suits you, my friend.
She responded with "I forced her to make this choice". I just left that alone.
Good. Typical re-writing of history. Word for word we all get that one. Ignore it - you did the right thing.
You have to let her feel the consequences of her actions. I agree. Keep up being the great Dad you are!! It's hard I know. But you will be fine. The kids will respect you for this.
Surfer.
Bigybiz
Having read some of your sitch I am way further on with a W that has done similar things. I can tell you this, if she is the same, I believe she still loves you. She is just lost. My W lifed in the loft (yours the basement) for 2 years. It doesn't matter which room, it will be the same behaviour. Does she appear unhinged at times, not there mentally?
My W spewed and raged a lot. It stopped when she moved out with the kids. She now talks to me more. I am using the time to GAL and I am happy. She is seeing me happy and I believe is liking what she sees more. She is also asking me for help with things and I am helping, if it suits me. Be careful not to confuse cake eating with being kind. Always be kind.
I am taking the kids off her hands tomorrow to go to the cinema. This will help her get things done. But why not, she will be grateful and she will feel warmer when she sees me as I am caring for the kids and her.
You do need to detach first and let her see you are getting on with your life.
I am happy and you will be too. I hope to reconcile but if we don't I will be fine and so will the kids. W will struggle if we don't get back together and I get the impression she is starting to feel this a little.
All the best mate.
Surfer.
I find your son's action troubling. You are in a no win situation with regards to his and his mother's relationship. Perhaps you should mention it to his therapist, that you view it as a potential problem, ask him/her to explore it with your son and then drop the issues. Have you addressed this issue with your coach here?
I have read elsewhere that a marriage is between absolute equals. That within a marriage there are no gender roles except obvious biological one's. That how the roles where handled are between the spouses and only the spouces.
It would seem your wife feels she was assigned a role with no real imput from her. That discussing it with you is a lost cause. In the end she will fill the role you and her children have assigned her. She is caught in a box with no way out.
If this the case you doing what she asked does not address the real issue. Have tried asking her "so what do you see as the options"? Notice the "s" at the end of option? Ask her for three options, chose one and discuss how to implement it. All three are options she chose. How to implement it is discussed and act on. Can you see the difference?
Surfer: Thanks so much for you post it means lots.
You and the second person that told me that she still loves me - it's just that she is so full of resentment and her other stuff that she won't let it out.
To answer some of your questions - no she does not appear to be unhinged and/or not there mentally. She is very good at being detached. As we know the WAW/MLC/WW has had years to develop this where the LBS has to do it quickly and consciously.
I really struggle with the line between being kind and cake eating. I'm so tempted to "nice her back" but, I know that won't work. I've invited her to have meals etc with us (as she feel's disconnected with the kids). Sometimes she says yes. I've told her I'm going to stop inviting her since she has declined more than accepted.
Her narrative is that she is on her own,I'm against her, everything she has achieved it was on her own and despite my trying to sabotage her and I'm trying to control her.
Further, since I live in our house with her kids, dogs, etc - this fuels her story that I forced her out. She won't give up this narrative until she decides to.
She does not see her behaviour as an issue. I'm doing my best to not let it impact me.
Right now I'm acting as if I have gone on without her. Someone I spoke to said my current approach is "look at all the fun we are having".
As long time followers know, I'm doing my best to present myself and the family as we are going on without her.
My only goal is to reconcile. I believe that with my whole heart and it's how my faith directs me. I won't be fine if we don't - on the other hand I don't know how long or when I will give that up? Years, after D after she remarries???
Until then I'm trying to be removed/detached. I'm trying to be "business like" she sees it as controlling. I've taken Sandi2's words to heart that I'm not her secretary.
I'm going out of my way at times to show her how easily she can be replaced i.e. me taking on the role she used to play and going on with projects and activities without her. Only time will tell if it works.
Thanks for your kind words. I'll catch up with you on your thread.
Hey bigy!
Been out on the motorcycle lately?
I am working my plan now to get my license and then purchase one. It is cooling down enough to actually survive the 2 day training course.
I am looking forward to it.
Hope all is well my friend.
Help needed.
I've organized family therapy starting this week (after a summer break). I've organized it primarily for myself and S10 & S16. D20 has moved out - she is aware of it.
W is aware of it (she see's the dates, times, etc on the family calendar) - I've not told her about it directly.
Question: Should I ask her/encourage her to come?
My preliminary thoughts are - she knows about it, if she wants to come she will. But, if it is good for our sons for us all to be there should I swallow it and ask her to come.
Here is the background:
At the end of the last family session - all five of us. The Dr. said to W and I that we need to have MC. We went to two sessions and she quit (again).
So it seems dumb that she takes part - when she does not want to follow the Dr's prescriptions. I did propose an alternate Dr. - I gave her the referral from my family Dr - she has done nothing with it.
So what would a strong/confident man do
1) Leave it - she has all the info, if she wants to come or needs the appt moved etc - she can take action.
2) Look out for my sons and encourage her to come - as it would be the best thing for the boys (The Dr. has said that it's best that both parents be there).
OK DB'ers - let me know your thoughts.
My thoughts are option 1.
Thx
Bigy.
3. Tell her she is not coming.
Personally, I wouldn't take the kids either. I would keep the money and use the time to go somewhere with the kids and invite them to open up a bit about it. Ask if they have any questions. They don't need to speak to someone else, it's you that will make them feel secure.
If invited she will either avoid it, as the kids might hear the real truth first hand. Or she will come and spew in front of the kids. Neither would be good IMHO.
Surfer.
Surfer:
Thanks for your post. Not to worry about the $. The sessions are covered by the provincial healthcare.
To be honest - When I try to get the boys to open up - not a lot happens. It's more of a "I'm fine", type answers. I could use some pointers on how to get them to confide/trust/etc.
We've had 4 sessions as a family and they have been a springboard to conversations at the house. I can say that the sessions have been helpful and certainly S16 has been more vocal at the Dr's then he ever has been at home.
Further, the Dr has brought up topics that I never would have thought of - so they have been helpful to me as well.
Any other thoughts fellow DBer's?
The MC you two attended a while back is totally different. That was for the two of you, and she was probably not in a place where she was truly interested in making the M work.
Family therapy now is entirely different. You say you organized it and she didn't know about it. Why didn't you get her input before you signed everyone up and scheduled it? Do you guys have any formal parenting agreement in place? In my D there is verbiage that basically says that things like doctors, dental work, extra curricular activities, etc, all require both parents on board. It's odd to me that you'd do this on your own and then think she should want to participate in any way.
So if I were you I'd tell her that you felt it would be good for the children to attend therapy, but that they are her children too and if she had concerns to let you know. Then if she was ok with it, I'd mention the IC thought her participation could be beneficial and extend the invite for the best interest of the kids.
However it plays out it's important to keep in mind that from a DB perspective the only thing that has anything to do with DB is how you choose to co-parent and how you choose to treat her. If there's any trace of wanting some type of family time with her, wanting her to talk to a therapist under the guise of family therapy, or anything to do with hoping this could help restore the marriage, then I think it's a bad plan because your expectations will do more harm than good. But if your focus is on what's best for your children solely then share that with her, and get her feedback both on therapy and her attendance so you two can start co-parenting cooperatively.
We've had 4 sessions as a family and they have been a springboard to conversations at the house. I can say that the sessions have been helpful and certainly S16 has been more vocal at the Dr's then he ever has been at home.
I guess then I would go with the kids. It seems to be doing good. I suppose ours are younger. They tend to blurt out their thoughts - in the middle of nowhere. EG S6 yesterday, "Mummy is copying you Daddy. You are being nice to her (DB'ing) and she is copying you." Holy sh!t where did that come from.....
Teenage boys, yes I can see they might need some help to talk. Whatever works matey!
Keep it up.
Surfer.
Zues126 - Your wisdom is so helpful.
For clarification. W was with us at the Dr's office in June when the Dr said to all five of us that:
as a family we should continue to work together in September (boys are away at camp etc.)
W and I need to have MC to learn how to work together to save us from massive legal bills and more anger and resentment. That will only come if we have ongoing meetings with him.
I do get in July that W did not want to work on any kind of relationship with me, after 2 sessions. Despite the Dr's advice.
So in late August I contacted the Dr and set up the appointment for the family. So by no means did I organize it behind her back.
In April, she did not want to participate in the family therapy - but joined when S15 and S10 told her the Dr feels it would be best for us if she joined.
bottom line is - she will drift in and out of the therapy as it suits her.
You bring up the very salient points of my motives.
#1 - Boys and I live together and are working this new reality out on our own - expert help is a good idea. Figuring out what's OK, what's not, what to expect in the future, etc. So it's for the boys and I and D20 if she chooses to join.
#2 - I would be lying if said I did not wish W and I would get into MC and reconcile. I know that this will not happen until she thinks it's her idea.
As I said in my opening - I think it's a bad idea for her to come to a session(s) knowing that she is not going to take the expert's advice.
One of my questions is would it be seen as pursing if I told her/asked her to come. From your answer it would be a Yes.
So I guess I'll leave it as is, unless others recommend something different. If she wants to ask about it - she can.
FYI - no we don't have any kind of document that dictates how we book dentist appointments, etc. If it comes up - I'd be happy to hand over that authority for minor things i.e. recurring appointments, organized sports, etc. I would want "buy" in for anything new. Thanks for the tip.
Currently in Toronto placements in programs like hockey, swimming etc are in such high demand that many kids would not get enrolled if you had to wait for both (separated) parents to sign off.
Breaking News !!!!
One more major step in my GAL.
Today I passed the road test for my motorcycle licence - I can now ride at night, on highways, etc.
Not a big deal for the majority of the population - but it's an accomplishment for me.
Thanks to all of you who've supported me in my GAL.
Bigybiz I tip my hat to you for the GAL accomplishment and say I have a slight twinge of jealousy ...
Soon I hope to follow in your bike tracks...
Maybe a cross country trip on 2 wheels would be in order and we could start an MC...
Not the counseling type of MC...
Just came back from a family therapy session with S16 and S10. S16 expressed far more at the Dr's office than ever at home. Basically said too much confusion with the different factions of our family.
He did say he wished things could go back to the way it was - but he knew that was not his mum's wants. That was nice to hear.
S10 did not say much today.
I asked the Dr what we can do - the three of us to ensure we "launch" this part of our family (Boys and I). He said there is the risk of resentment and disappointment from the boys - no way to know. He did say we are doing the right things so far.
Again, he said we would have more success if W and D20 would come. They both knew about it. I understand D20 - she is building her own life autonomy from her family is a good thing.
W - she just wants to blame (I think) and the Dr won't accept that - so she won't come.
Let's see what happens next week.
Way to go on the motorcycle license Biz!! Seems like you are definitely forging ahead despite not getting the ideal feedback from the W. Good man!
Congrats on your M2 BigyBiz!!
I got mine last year, but had to sell my bike when I ran out of money.
I've been looking lately at buying another bike.
Next year! 😄
Bigybiz
Sounds like the therapist is good. My WW just used the sessions for blame and victim spew. Total waste of time.
Good the boys are opening it up.
You are doing the right thing.
Surfer.
Update about me - I'm not sure how the detachment process is coming along. I know there are some days where I don't think of the W very much. Primarily if I'm busy.
W comes to the house 3 times a week to collect the S16 and S10. Typically S16 goes and eats dinner with her then comes back on his own for homework, etc.
S10 has started spending 1 night a week with W.
S16 on most Saturday's he spends less and less time with W. He has been doing more with me on those Saturday's. That's great for me and hopefully for him.
One example - S16 plays the trombone at school. As a way of supporting and encouraging him I took him and D20 to see a concert featuring horn sections i.e. Chicago and Earth Wind & Fire. It was a great time for me and I believe they enjoyed it. Funny thing W plays the trombone - I invited her to come, of course she declined.
We've done a few other things together on "her" days and of course being 16 he has his own activities.
There was a ceremony for S16 for those on the Honor Roll at school. I put the invite in the binder and noted the event on the calendar. W did not show. I'm sure S16 told her about it. I know he appreciated me attending - I've not asked him why his Mom did not attend.
I wonder if she is feeling the loss yet?
Family therapy is OK - we mainly talk about the grenades that W throws in and how the 3 of us should deal with them i.e. The boys should not be go betweens.
W comes over we hardly speak, I will reply if she sends a text but we are NC pretty much. Interestingly she wanted to see S10 in his halloween costume (I had a seamstress make the costume - W has made all of our children's costumes - but not this year).
She sent a text - I was too busy to reply. She called the land line. I answered and basically said "please come over. There will be some dinner if you want it and if you can help S16 with handing out the candy, he can keep to his homework". Then got off the phone quickly.
Well she came over. S10 and I came in for a pit stop - W was handing out candy, she took a photo of S10 when we came back at the end of the evening, she had put the food away and done the dishes. I was careful not to read anything into it. But, I was surprised.
I think that is it for an update. I'm keeping a distance from her, trying to fill her shoes in the house, limiting the flare ups. But, I still obsess.
I'm guessing that one day I'll look up and say - what was I obsessing about?
More than likely we all will brother.
Today's question.
Since W has moved out, I've been mom and dad. I've been taking care of the boys, running the house, etc. To be honest, although it's tiring, I'm enjoying it.
When it hit me. MWD says that relationship are see/saws. Since I'm doing everything and I don't consult her for any decision.
I don't want the hassle of getting her involved and I certainly have taken over everything she used to do - Halloween costumes, computer set up, etc.
Here is the question. Am I letting her off the hook?
Am I as much an enabler as the friends that are telling her she deserves better and her kids will be OK and she gave up 15+ years of her life for her family and it's her turn now?
Why does it matter? What I mean is, don't focus or worry or stress about her or what she's doing or not. Sounds like you have it covered.
j20a00g:
Thanks for your reply. You right. It does not matter too much I think. I'm doing all the work - so she could take a long walk... and no one would notice. I have filled the void. Quite frankly I could move another female in and it would all be good. Except that my son's would have to go spend time with W.
On the other hand. if MWD says that relationships are see saws and if one person is doing all the work - the other gets off scott free. Then am I not practicing good DB/LRT/180?
And to be honest - I don't know what works.
Well, the basement floor is smashed up, the plumber has cracked the old clay drains, the house smells like <use your imagination>, there is dust on every surface on the main floor.
Starting a basement renovation is a great way to keep your mind off W and MR. Maybe foolish with respect to what could happen i.e. house being sold, etc.
But, it's also a great way of showing W that I'm moving forward. I think.
How do you know if what you are doing is working?
Could it be that things are changing? Keep reading and let me know.
I've been as distant as I can be for the last few months. We don't text/email. When she comes to the house. I don't engage her in conversation at all. She asks me how I am. I give a very positive answer. I don't ask her how she is. I only talk "family business" if she brings it up. There are many loose ends that I'd like to address i.e. Christmas break, family photos, etc. But I've zipped my lips.
She comes to the house - collects s10 sometimes s16 and drops them off. I have offered her a ride home - she has refused, so I stopped offering.
On Halloween she came over and "pitched in" - see earlier post.
In the last week she has started to get involved a in the house, way more than she has been. I've also, not let her.
Last week she cleaned the bathroom and did the dishes.
She asked how the work was coming in the basement. I invited her to come down and have a look. She and I stayed downstairs for 15 min and discussed/brainstormed, etc.
She bought a new shower curtain and installed it
We have no laundry machines currently, so she volunteered to help with that. Washed and folded two loads on the weekend.
So is something changing? Is it her guilt? Is she feeling left out? Has my DB/LRT/180 working?
Any and all insights are welcome.
Took another step in my GAL. I had my first guitar lesson. Rock On.
Two words - Pete Townsend
How do you know if what you are doing is working?
Could it be that things are changing? Keep reading and let me know.
I've been as distant as I can be for the last few months. We don't text/email. When she comes to the house. I don't engage her in conversation at all. She asks me how I am. I give a very positive answer. I don't ask her how she is. I only talk "family business" if she brings it up. There are many loose ends that I'd like to address i.e. Christmas break, family photos, etc. But I've zipped my lips.
She comes to the house - collects s10 sometimes s16 and drops them off. I have offered her a ride home - she has refused, so I stopped offering.
On Halloween she came over and "pitched in" - see earlier post.
In the last week she has started to get involved a in the house, way more than she has been. I've also, not let her.
Last week she cleaned the bathroom and did the dishes.
She asked how the work was coming in the basement. I invited her to come down and have a look. She and I stayed downstairs for 15 min and discussed/brainstormed, etc.
She bought a new shower curtain and installed it
We have no laundry machines currently, so she volunteered to help with that. Washed and folded two loads on the weekend.
So is something changing? Is it her guilt? Is she feeling left out? Has my DB/LRT/180 working?
Any and all insights are welcome.
It's working....remember, YOU are the focus. You are stepping outside of your comfort zones and doing new things. Also being a great dad and thinking less about what ww is doing or how your decisions impact her.
I have been able to kinda of grasp that successful DB is me being stronger and more independent and human than before and if at the "end" it saves my marriage then that's gravy.
Well today I may have taken a step backwards. S10 was sick with W on Saturday. Sunday she drops him off and leaves for a company retreat. Despite we have been NC for months, she send 3 or 4 text messages wanting updates. I give short factual responses.
This am she calls wanting to speak to s10. Normally I am happy to hand over the phone. But this am S10 is not up yet (I let him sleep in as he was sick), the concrete truck is here pouring our new basement floor and there is a wheelbarrow in the kitchen, etc.
I tell her, what is going on - then I ask her when we are going to meet to discuss the outstanding issues from September, and I wanted to fill her in on our Christmas plans (which I'm sure she won't like).
I'm tired of when she wants something it's a priority - when I want something it's not.
She concedes and says we can meet briefly on Tues when she picks up the boys and/or a meeting on Wed.
So I may have backtracked a little. I'm tempted to send a text to apologize. What do you think?
I was not at my best. If I was dealing with a neighbor, friend, etc and that happened I would apologize.
I'm tempted to send a text to apologize.
Apologize for what?
I'm with Doodler, I don't think there is anything to apologize about.
No Apology needed - as for letting her get off the hook - I was in the same predicament for the first 6 months, when she finally moved into a permanent place I said that D10 needed to spend her nights with her (instead of the family home). It was emotional at first but it also helps her realise the gravity of the situation and also gave me some time and space back.
WW's don't really see us as "doing all this work" they are in their fantasy world and me putting a boundary down of D10 having to stay there has created ripples into that world and a dose of reality.
So glad I've matured a little and you guys are all here. I did not send any messages at all. When I see her on Tues night, I'll see if she brings it up and try and be as positive about it as possible. It's up to her to interpret what she heard and she can act accordingly.
PacLove. I think my W sees that she is missing out. Not sure if any loss is being felt. That's why slowly she has been inching back into our lives. Maybe it's cake eating, maybe remorse, not sure. This summer she offered to do housework. I said don't worry.
Now she's started again.
Any thoughts - is it cake eating, remorse, testing, etc? Let me know your thoughts - ladies,Sandi2 What do you think
Bigybiz - I struggle with this, my W does this every now and then too but a lot less now. I kind of let her - they say to give is an expression of love and when you give you feel good. I may get chewed out for saying that here, but there's a lot of research on it.
If she offers I let her but I certainly don't ask - and I'll say a polite thank you in the end. The important thing is boundaries, if it starts to infer on your personal space that's where I'd push back - and have.
I think in some ways it's eating away at my W - I don't let her come by the house anymore so instead of her being able to help out I'm now getting "friendly" reminders about this, that or the other. I used to never get those. I simply reply with a "thanks for the reminder" usually an hour or two later.
There's always going to be some cake-eating going on, it's a question of what you allow vs. not allow. For instance in the beginning I was washing her car, filling it up with gas etc... stuff that "inconvenienced" me and really did nothing for her or our R. I've now moved more to stuff that is mutually beneficial (ie house, finances etc) and generally only when it's convenient and doesn't take me out of my way.
My W has only been officially out since beginning of Oct (half moved out since April) and since then hasn't really made a habit of coming by the house and I more or less told her I didn't want her as we need to respect each others space. (she wasn't willing for me to have access to her place, so why shouldn't I expect the same?)
So glad I've matured a little and you guys are all here. I did not send any messages at all. When I see her on Tues night, I'll see if she brings it up and try and be as positive about it as possible. It's up to her to interpret what she heard and she can act accordingly.
Please answer doodlers question.
What is it you think an apology was needed for?
PacLove. I think my W sees that she is missing out. Not sure if any loss is being felt. That's why slowly she has been inching back into our lives. Maybe it's cake eating, maybe remorse, not sure. This summer she offered to do housework. I said don't worry.
I think you are still mind reading and speculating on everything she does, thinks or feels.
Cheeseless tunnel.
Now she's started again.
Any thoughts - is it cake eating, remorse, testing, etc? Let me know your thoughts - ladies,Sandi2 What do you think
I'm not sandi, nor one of the ladies, but I am here sharing what I have shared with you all along my friend.
It's time to move forward with you.
She has fired you as her husband.
You know this.
You will benefit much by moving forward and doing you, without any thoughts or expectations from her.
There can not be any loss, if you keep doing what you have continued to do.
She see's you as much the same.
Trust me...as I am catching up on your pots, I see much the same from bigybiz.
The more I read in here in the DB community, the more I see one of 2 things.
1. LBS that finally let go and move on with life.
These are the ones that on occasion the WAS/WS see's what they are missing and try to come back.
2. And I see the LBS that continues doing much of the same mind reading, game playing and over analyzing every little thing as if it is a game...I have not seen an WAS/WS return to this...Well, I have seen the return of an WAS/WS in some of these cases, but I have also seen the LBS in each of these return here again shortly after because it tends to fall apart.
Maybe the WAS/WS felt sorry for the LBS, IDK, but the pattern is pretty consistent.
Detach...let go...focus forward..
Still pulling for you my friend.
please go and read your threads and see the pattern...then break the patterns...cheesless tunnels in the pattern.
“To conquer oneself is a greater task than conquering others”
– Buddha“You only lose what you cling to.”
– Buddha“You can search throughout the entire universe for someone who is more deserving of your love and affection than you are yourself, and that person is not to be found anywhere. You yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe deserve your love and affection.”
– Buddhabigybiz, what are you doing for you? What are you doing to love yourself enough to move forward and become the man only a fool would leave.
I challenge you to focus on this, in the place of your expressed desires for her to feel loss...you deserve some peace...I think you are seeking it in the wrong place.
Peace comes from within. Do not seek it without.
-Buddha
SH:
Thanks for the reply:
To answer doodlers question - I was tempted to appologize for hijacking the conversation. She called about x - I started talking about Y. The entire convo was less than 3 min, I've not lost any sleep over it. And like a few things in my new life. I fought my gut instinct, talked about it with you all, moved on and left it alone. I did not bring it up again.
SH - Is there a thread from the LBS from the group #1 you mention. I'd like to glean what I can from that group
SH - I'm doing lots for myself, my kids, my family, clients, etc. You are more up to date on my accomplishments, new activities, adventures, etc. Nothing makes me prouder and no one can take it away from me.
Am I detached - not yet. Am I moving away yes.
Help needed:
I just picked up S10 from W. S10 informs me that W has set up another email address for him (he already has one that we both know about).
My feeling is that she should not have done this without some kind of heads up to me. There may be a good reason for this, it seems not very respectful to me.
I've told S10 -that I'll deactivate it. I've done nothing so far. I'm tempted to call W and say. There maybe good reason for the second email - it would have been more appropriate for you to get my input. Then work out the details.
FYI: When boys and I were meeting the family Counselor he made it very clear that children should not be the messengers between the separated parents. I reminded the boys about this.
Input needed. Needed to vent.
In the last 7 weeks there has been a change in her. She started volunteering to do our laundry (since our basement is under construction), she asks me for a ride back to her apt after her visitation, When she comes over she helps with cleaning, etc.
So I've changed a little too. I've let her eat some cake. She participated in 50% of the Christmas activities with us. I let her talk about what interests her.
I've kept up my GAL. All my projects are still in high gear. I'm being consistent in what I do and how I do it. etc.
Are we on the road to reconciliation - It's way to early to tell. Is she feeling remorseful - I don't know.
After watching the LRT videos in early November I really took to heart what MWD was saying. Somehow I've got to strike a balance between letting her feel the loss and question if her addiction is worth it and giving her a small open window to reenter her old life.
I've got to change some more - I just need to make sure it does not have me backtracking.
Hey BB,
Stay positive but focus on yourself. I also noticed subtle changes a few months ago with my W but didn't push and just kept about my own business. Then she opened up the R talk this past week!
Everyone works on their own timeline but now's not the time to push anything with her, just keep showing the open door but that you are moving on.
Hey Biz, what videos about LRT are you referring to? Are they posted here?
Also I think you are voter thinking things brother, just make sure you are putting you first. Do what makes a difference for you my man, because it's who you are as a person, not because it will make a difference to her. Stay strong my man.
Melo: Good to hear from you. I wanted to let you know that I continue to pray for you regularly.
The LRT videos can be found on the "e-store" section of the DB site. There is a cost involved.
I can tell you that my path has many curves - but I'd like to believe what I'm doing is working. As MWD says regularly do what works.
My DB coach wanted me to build a friendship with W. That did not go so well when I tried in late 2015, early 2106. So after months of focusing on me and turning my GAL to "11", I'm ready to do it. After watching the LRT videos this fall it seems I'm now ready.
My life is moving on. Aside from the "limbo" of what could happen with the house. I'm as ready as I could be to go on without her.
Don't get me wrong - I'm not detached and my motivations are probably messed up. I still obsess about it, etc.
Nonetheless, It seems I'm getting results.
It may be cake eating on her part, it still seems that there has been a "softening" of her hard heart - or she is manipulating/DBing me perfectly.
I planned and executed our family Christmas without her. The kids and I went along our business and it seemed that they treated W as a visitor. We let her participate in a few of our events, etc. Not all, just some.
I've "let" her hang around the house on my parenting days. She has been doing our laundry at her apt. When she comes over she cleans the bathroom, etc. S16 has his own life now, so he does not go to visit her - so the only way she can see him is to come to our house. She has been taking an active interest in our basement reno (again a big risk during a time of separation).
As the coaches say - I've engaged her in "safe" conversation and we seem to be starting a dialogue. This past summer she would not accept any "kind" gesture from me (as I would offer a friend or stranger), today, she now asks me for little things i.e. a lift to her apt, to share my parenting time with her, etc.
I've been consistent. I'm proceeding with my life, activities, etc. We've asked her to participate in our life and have never made a concession for her. We are still basically NC. She knows I will not text her. If she sends me a text, I will give a short simple reply. If she want's info etc, she can call me or ask me when she see's me.
She has accepted invitations from me to see movies, to come over when the extended family has come over, etc.
I'm thinking this is progress. I intend to turn up the heat on what I'm doing in my life and see what happens.
Is any OM in the picture?
Not that I know of and W has told D21 that she is not dating. In Fall of 2015 W was having an EA - which I broke up via snooping and a phone call to the OM. Last time we talked about it June 2016 W insisted it was a friendship.
OK, then is she still in this "friendship" with OM?
Not with him. After, I confronted him and her - he dropped her like a stone. He blocked her from social media, etc.
I'm confident he is out of the picture. My guess is there is no one else but, I don't know.
Bigy, you seem to have made such a large 180 from the place you were when you first arrived. You have always been open for more suggestions from the board. You appear, to me, to be very goal oriented. I applaud you for how you have taken charge of your home and caring for your children.
I feel you are trying so hard to create a sense of loss for your W, that you might possibly fall into controlling. I talk a lot about cake-eating and how the WW has to experience some type of loss, due to her choices and bad decisions. The H can stop serving cake, and he can stop most of the benefits she received as his W in the MR.
I want to say this carefully, Bigy, b/c I don't want anyone to misunderstand. When couples are co-parenting or parallel parenting.....it (the relationship) can get complicated, especially if one spouse is hoping to reconcile with the other one. I just wanted to add this, b/c I see other men struggling with similar issues.
One of the most unflaterring sides of a WW, is her controlling/manipulative hold on her family....mainly, her H. From what I remember in your stitch, this had been the behavior of your W for a long time. When the separation came, you were determined she would not gain control of you again, if you had anything to do with it. Do I rememeber this summary correctly?
At one point, I think you questioned if you really wanted her back in the home, and she even tried to manipulate her way back into the house. She got pretty angry when you let her know it wasn't happening. Right so far? I've tried to keep up, but admit I get behind.
In this thread, I am reading how your hope is that you and W will reconcile. However, your ongoing goal seems to be that you won't give her an inch, b/c you want her to feel loss. But in order to make sure she has "loss", you step in and take the control handles. Am I being fair in this statement? I want to be fair with you, Bigy, b/c I do talk a lot about the "loss" being important.
I have also told H's not to allow a cheating W back in the MR too easily. I believe she has her "work" to do, if the reconciliation is successful. I think family therapy is needed and the couple certainly needs MC to help them through the piecing. I am saying all of this b/c I don't want you to think I am contradicting myself, okay?
So, here is my concern for your stitch. What you write out in your threads sound pretty good, but I have this perception that you are way too focused on not making anything easy for her. Now if she is like Jimko's WW......then I understand and support it, but if she is not......you may being overdoing it. As I recall, you have difficulty maintaining a sense of balance in your actions. Right?
If you want to be emotionally healthier, I think you need to let go of trying to control her relationship with the boys. As long as she is not doing something that causes harm to them, why do you have to meet with her for Saturday mornings discussions over the kids? I don't mean what are your excuses for the meetings, b/c I know them. I mean what are your true motives? I kind of think it is your way to stay on top of things and let her know you are in control of it. Again Bigy, I get it. You have felt as if you've been both parents to the kids, and I think you have done a remarkable job.
I have been hesitant in saying anything b/c you appear to have a tendency to go too far from one direction to the other. Try to find balance. Perhaps you need to let go of trying to control what she does, or what happens to her. Know what I mean? You need a clearer view of where the line is drawn between loss and punishment. It is not your job to punish her. I don't think you will get her back by punishing her. My "loss" that slapped me in the face, had nothing to do with my H. He did not create it. So maybe you don't need to be quite so driven in that direction. With that said, I do not mean you should open the flood gates to serving all the cake she can eat. Just stop trying to control every little aspect all the time. Focus on being a litle relaxed around her. What you see as being polite and having few words, could be interpted as mean spirited by her. You are trying to detach and follow the advice you've read. If she is not in some type of special friendship with another man, and if you feel the time is right.....you can start to let up with the rigid atmosphere and/or interactions. Don't widly swing too much too quickly, b/c she may not be ready.
I may be 100% off base here, but in trying to see you in these various interactions with your W.......are you a little bit rigid? Do you feel you must maintain this, in order to prevent her from going into your house and taking over
the run of things?
Has she said anything to you that indicated she wants to go back home? What about wanting to return to the MR? My advice is to a few temp checks to see where her passion lies. I would not invest energy, time, and emotions into trying to build a friendship if there is a guy who has her true interest.
Thanks Sandi2 as usual you nailed many of the issues on the head.
Yes, she did not like where she first moved to. I told her that if she wanted to move back in to our home it was as my wife and not in an in-house separation. She did not like that. Also, S16 & D20 were not to happy of the thought of the in house separation starting again. She found a better place to live.
My feelings are, there no is OM – there maybe an infatuation and or imagined affair. Plus, her addiction to her new community/family, as she puts it, is her primary focus/obsession.
Yes, when I get a thought in my head I go to the extreme. When she moved out I tried to be friendly and cooperative. I thought I could be business like and keep her involved in the family. She suggested the Saturday meetings – we had one. I slipped back into wimp mode and nagged her to keep her involved. After 6 weeks of that I said forget it. I went full steam ahead on showing her that I/we did not need her. I was totally NC. The best piece of advice you gave me Sandi2 was I’m not her secretary.
One of my colleagues on the board posted that the WAW/WW can smell my motivations so any backhanded meetings, family counselling, etc. would be perceived as a trick to get her back. So, I acted alone and waited for her to bring up issues if they came up.
Georgia Bulldog gave me a great insight when he said the WAW/WW views an amicable break up as a goal. I was not going to reward her with that.
I had a great summer and back to school with my kids. The house is in great shape, nobody died from my cooking, we had birthday parties, vacations, activities, etc. all without her. The jobs Yes, I then tried to rub her nose in it - subtly. I’m still doing it.
Yes, control and punishment has been a theme in our MR. She says it was all me and does not acknowledge that she did as well.
Thanks for the wake-up call – It’s not my job to punish her.
She has not said anything about coming back to the home and certainly not to the MR. Her actions have indicated that there is small change in her. She has accepted invitations to be part of the family during Christmas and after. FYI, I have not extended an invitation to her for every activity – only select events. Acts of Service is one of her main love languages. She has extended herself far more in the last month than she ever had in the past six, including washing and folding my underwear
.
She has expressed interest in our basement renovations, expressed concern for my parent’s health, she has even realized that she will need to address the estrangement she has with her family too.
I’ve been consistent. My GAL is still at 110%. I realize that she may never come back so all the skills I’ve had to develop need to be refined. Am I detached – not yet.
I’ve been changing as a response to her changes too. I’ve started to ask her for her help, only for tasks that can be done by me or someone else if she says no.
I’ve tried to show genuine interest in her, at a distance. I’ve tried to talk about safe conversations, not just the kids – you know adult conversations.
I’ve tried to let her re-enter her life. JimKo encouraged me to let her have some rope and not worry about the little things, I don’t bring them up.
If she feels the only way to have quality time with her son’s is to be in their home, then I give her some space when she is here.
How do I temp check? I’ve asked her if she would like to “join me” watching a TV show we used to both enjoy, I was turned down. Any ideas on how to temp check?
So Sandi2 and everyone else – how do I continue to work on myself and allow her to re-enter her life? As I’ve said, I see some changes – I think they are a good thing. I’d love some practical suggestions - I promise not to go overboard.
Bigy...
I suggest that you follow LRT.
Sandi has provided very candid feedback and thoughts
You have acknowledged them
Your reply is screaming 2 things
You are not choosing to detach...
Your every action is with an intent and goal around getting a reaction from your W.
You hold very much to the extreme definition of wayward for your w.
I still perceive she is much more WAW...
She is not under your roof
She is not requesting things that indicate a desire to work on things with you.
Her actions as you share would seem more that she sense a loss of her family...not so much the loss of her MR.
My simple opinion is...back up and observe.
Let her go through the process...nothing you do is going to get her to feel loss or suddenly make any changes...time is your gift.
Detachment is your daily choice.
If many of us perceive your controlling actions and reactions, I can only imagine what she perceives...she knows you and sees all that you do, say, and think.
You are super goal oriented and push with vigor that a successful and driven person does...
Perhaps your lesson in all of this is...
You can not control everything...you can not control anything except your self...
Letting things be as they will be and controlling your response and acceptance will be where you grow...and will show you a path that can and will lead to better things.
You asked how to temp check, but it sounds like you know how to do it.
Asking her to watch a show with you was temp checking. She said no. The temp is cold.
Wanting tips for how to let her re-enter your life implies she wants to enter, and there doesn't seem much evidence for that in what you post.
If you feel like what you are doing is resulting in some softening, then keep doing it, but there's no indication you should move things along, or take things to the next level, etc.
This morning W came to the house to collect S10. She arrived sat down the three of us watched a few minutes of TV, she and I talked about Inauguration ceremony, various other topics i.e. the dogs, my parent's health, S16, our neighbors, our ongoing basement renovation etc. Then S10 gathered his things and they left after almost an hour. This past summer when she collected S10 on Saturday mornings, she was in and out of the house in 10 min.
Earlier this week S16 commented to me that he was seen his mom more in the past few weeks then he has in months. As you know, she has been at the house and joining us for meals out, movies, aka - taking a more active role in the family.
D21 had seen and spoken to her mother 0 times between June and October aside from a few text messages. D21 reached out and took her mother out for dinner in late Oct. They have been out together 2 or 3 times since then.
This reminded me of the story of Randy in the DB book (page 180). Randy had implemented LRT and noticed that his W was "lingering" when she dropped off his son, she was taking an interest in Randy, they were spending time together as a family. Randy's story ends with the family on the verge of reuniting in their home.
Clearly there is some change in W. It may have nothing to do with me. Perhaps another man turned her down, maybe she got some bad news from the Dr, maybe the stress of the new job is getting to her, etc, etc. I don't know and for sure she is not telling.
Yes, Rose - I did do a temp check and it was cold. Still - she has been more receptive to me in the past few weeks then she has been in months. So maybe not ice cold - just cold.
Am I doing what's working no idea? I struggle with the idea that I'm controlling by being unpredictable and "producing results".
Yes, I'm sure that what I've written makes me look like a mad scientist plotting and scheming to get W to come back. TBH, I am substantially less "obsessed" then when I came to the DB site in Feb 2016.
I certainly feel more confident and ready to face the world if W moves ahead with D.
I guess the questions are:
1) Is there a change in her or am I dreaming
2) Should and how should I support that change? I can't believe it would be bad for my sons for their mother to be playing a more active role in their home.
3) Is what I'm doing right for the R or will it prove to be damaging? I can tell you that it's great for me. Out of necessity I've conquered more in the past 13 months then I have in the past 6 years.
Updates:
Saturday am - W is lingering in the house as she picks up S10. She asks about my 80+ year old parents (They've been quite ill). I asked her if she wanted to visit - no answer.
Sunday eve. I'm gathering up the boys to visit my folks. I called W and asked her if she'd like to join us - she said Yes. We drove over and picked her up, had a short visit and dropped her back.
Tuesday evening comes I get home to find she has made dinner, baked muffins, bought S10 a few items he needs, bought one or two grocery items for the house. We have safe conversations - nothing personal - very high level. I temp check - still cold.
Something is different with her - 0 expectations on my part.
I'm slowly dialing back my "I can do it without her position". Coach has given me two mandates:
Address her unmet needs
Don't let her get stuck in the victim mentality.
It sounds easier than it is - any ideas?
Coach has given me two mandates:
Address her unmet needs
Don't let her get stuck in the victim mentality.
It sounds easier than it is - any ideas?
What are her unmet needs?
What keeps her in victim mentality?
Gordie:
Thanks for your post.
To keep it simple I would say her unmet needs are - coming from the hard heart of a WAW/WW are:
Intimacy, Safety, Security, Support
Early on after the BD the coach said to me that W is getting her strength from playing the blame game. That was an ongoing theme through every R talk we had. Everything is my fault.
Even during the early days of separation her decision to move out was totally a result of me. So she portrays herself as the victim and the martyr. She moved out so the kids could stay in the house..., she has to live in a crummy basement apt because she has to support our household, etc. She has chosen not to move ahead with divorce, asset division, etc
It sounded easy when the coach said don't let her get stuck. They suggested statements like "I mean you no harm"
I'm not sure how to bring it all together.
How do I temp check? I’ve asked her if she would like to “join me” watching a TV show we used to both enjoy, I was turned down. Any ideas on how to temp check?
So Sandi2 and everyone else – how do I continue to work on myself and allow her to re-enter her life? As I’ve said, I see some changes – I think they are a good thing. I’d love some practical suggestions - I promise not to go overboard.
I do not encourage temp checks. Temp checks is an action taken by the WW/MLC, which is not authentic. They temp check, not b/c they desire the LBH or want to reconcile.....but for their own selfish motives. As soon as they get a reading on the temp....they immediately return to their waywardness or MLC. So, that term, "temp check" should not be attached to the LBS, IMHO.
BTW, I get what you are asking. However, your W can see or feel those "ideas" as pressure. I caution you about taking her emotional temp. This could be a subtle, or unintentional, attempt to control a part of her life. IDK, I'm just trying to get you to let go of the control handles. Like, when you say something about how can you allow her to re-enter "her" life. I assume you are referring to her easing back into the MR? That is something YOU should not try to create for her, IMHO. B/c she needs to work through her issues, and if & when she wants to re-enter into the MR, she will let you know the desires of her heart.....
if she is being genuine, and it's not like the last time.
You can still have hope that the MR will reconcile, but I think you really need to let go of the rope you have around her. That rope is the reason you have not been able to detach. You need to stop measuring your every action by how much it affect your W. I think your "to do" list and other things began with you proving to her that you could change and you could do the work. Better yet, you could do your work
and hers, and do it without her help. As you checked off your list, you would ask for more ideas from the board. I thought maybe that was how you were geared. In your endeavor to show her how capable you are, it kept your focus on her reactions.
My advice is to stop trying to create some scenario where you can determine her emotional feelings about the MR. Neither should you try to weigh every action with some punitive result in mind.
Stop posting how the kids are mad at her or they don't really want her to move back home. That feeds your self-righteous side (and most of have a little self-righteousness). It could appear just a little smug, that the kids love you more than their mom. This is not a competition in who is the best parent. At some level, I think you rather like a competitive feel.....but this should not be the undercurrent that resides within you when it comes to your relationships, especially the spouse and kids. Stop trying to beat her at winning.
Sometimes I get this mental picture of you giving your W difficulty when she wants to meet, or see the kids, or whatever. If she makes a habit of wanting to change things around or have her way all the time, then that would fall under manipulation.....and perhaps it's your way of not allowing it. If there really is a legit problem or issue where you can't cooperate with her request ...then of course, pull back on the reigns. Don't be contrary just to give her a hard time, or make her pay for leaving the M.
Start focusing on yourself as an individual.....not, as a H. How are you doing with GAL? What do you do that has absolutely no connections to your W? Go about living your life and stop focusing on her, and/or how to get her to do certain things. It is up to her to figure out how she feels, and how to get back into the life she once had with her family. If she does the right thing, she'll discuss it with you and ask you what it will take to reconcile the MR. If she doesn't....and she acts as if she's trying to wiggle her way back without doing anything differently, then stop her.
Now you said you would not go overboard, so I hope you will stay balanced with what I am saying.
Sandi2: Thanks for your post. I appreciate everything you say and act on it accordingly.
For the record - it was W that did not want to meet or discuss the "running" of our family with me. At first I tried to be business like - prepared an agenda, gave her options, etc. When I had to nag her etc. I said stuff it. I made every decision and did not consult with her. I'd wait till she brought it up. I was NC/dark.
Yes, when she came over I was aloof and distant. At times when she tried to get in on the "fun or interesting" stuff I shut her down. IMO - you have to do the grunt work, paying, etc to get the benefits.
Temp checks - Understood that's scratched off the list
GAL - I would give myself an A+ on GAL - I've learned new skills cooking, baking, gardening, etc- because I had to - but new skills are good no matter what - agree/disagree? I'm way more involved it the kid's school, D21 and I are a little closer. I've taken the house from a bunch of unfinished projects to killer curb appeal, updated the furniture, etc a major reno underway, etc. So the above are related to W.
For myself - I'm in better physical shape then most men. I'm lean, slim and a little ripped.
I've made new friends, updated my wardrobe, taken up new hobbies, motorcycle riding, guitar lessons, etc.
Aside from not dating and being in charge of everything in my house - it's a very different BigyBiz then when I arrived her 11 months ago.
Footnote: The Canadian winter and my recent illness of my senior citizen parents has severely changed how I spend my time in the last few weeks. So my GAL needs to get back on track. Stay tuned.
I'm quite proud of where I am.
I get its' not my job to punish her etc.
I read your advise about trying to manufacture a situation where I can influence her - I get that and I don't do that. I am guilty of showing her that we are moving on without her. I will stop trying to rub her nose in it.
I will not be available to her. She often thinks I should "switch" days with her because she has something better to do then be with her kids on certain days. I tell her I'll cover that day for her in return she then owes me a day. That allows us to go away for weekends etc. This makes her angry.
I won't switch with her because she wants it.
Now that I'm strong(er), confident, etc and I realize that my actions may not save my marriage but could save my life - what is the DB/LRT response now that there has been some changes in W. She is friendly, engaging, cooperative, lingers around the house etc.
From DB, DR, LRT videos etc - I'm supposed to encourage her change. Invite her to family events, etc Is that right? Wrong?
For the record - it was W that did not want to meet or discuss the "running" of our family with me. At first I tried to be business like - prepared an agenda, gave her options, etc. When I had to nag her etc. I said stuff it. I made every decision and did not consult with her. I'd wait till she brought it up. I was NC/dark.
Well, if you are managing the household and she is not interested in discussing it once a week.....I suggest you stop being the one who calls for a meeting. She left that all behind her, and seeing you with prepared agendas and updating things you have done or planning.......might have been an unpleasant event for her, IDK. I just couldn't see the need to have an face to face meeting every week. I can see from her end, but looking at your end it resembles a LBH who wants the opportunity to show her how the home is running smoothly without her. Anyway, if I am off, then I'm off and it's okay.
I will not be available to her. She often thinks I should "switch" days with her because she has something better to do then be with her kids on certain days. I tell her I'll cover that day for her in return she then owes me a day. That allows us to go away for weekends etc. This makes her angry.
If you have made solid advanced plans for the day she wants to switch, then just tell her. Don't play around while she's waiting for an answer......checking your calendar.....thinking of something you could do on that day......b/c that is showing a contrary spirit. Don't refuse to answer the phone when you see it is your W, and pretending you were just to busy to respond....when you know good & well she is waiting for an answer. Those type of actions at this point of the stitch, simply stirs anger. It certainly woud stir mine. Just give the woman an anwer without reqiring her to scratch and claw for it. Do you see what I mean, or have I confussed you? Don't go overboard either way.
Now that I'm strong(er), confident, etc and I realize that my actions may not save my marriage but could save my life - what is the DB/LRT response now that there has been some changes in W. She is friendly, engaging, cooperative, lingers around the house etc.
Three steps in the LRT: 1. Stop the Case 2. Get a life 3. Watch and wait. Then notice, MWD says when you sense a real commitment (from your spouse) to working things out you can follow the steps in her program....and you can also find a solution based therapist.
I think the key is commitment to working things out. IMHO, it is difficult for you to watch and wait, b/c you want to do-do-do. Sometimes it is not about the H's "doing".
Well the last week has been status quo.
She has been spending her parenting time here. She makes a meal, I join them, etc. Most of my GAL has been focused on the basement renovation project and taking care of my parents - so I'm home more than I have been in months.
On Saturday's she comes to the house, lingers a little then packs up S10 and drops him back Sunday am.
Sometimes she tells me/us a little what she is up to. I don't tell her about what I'm doing and she does not ask. Our conversations are not deep - but more personal then what they've been in months.
So now what? Yes, I always want to do something. I think that's one of the features I like about MWD strategy is that you are doing things differently and taking action.
I personally love the story of the 70 year old lady who took off her shirt at dinner...
I understand that if I'm only taking action that pushes her buttons and or wanting to cause a reaction then that can be seen as controlling.
If my actions are genuine and producing benefits for myself and/or my family - is how she responds her problem? I've given this some careful thought after Sadhub's recent post.
I'm now doing things I've wanted to do and have been stopped by her in the past or taken over for her in the family/community.
I don't make her scratch or claw. I don't trade days with her. If she has someplace better to be then with her kids - I cover for her and I ask for lieu time from her. I use those lieu days for weekends away or holidays, etc. I don't see that as being contrary I see it more as business like. It has to be in both party's benefit right? I won't trade with her because she wants me to.
Yes, there has been no commitment from her to rebuild the MR. There have been small changes in her.
I'm still driven by the notion that I can save my marriage even if I'm the only one who wants to save it.
It's been a weird couple of weeks. W has been spending more and more time here at the house. She's gotten involved in the home renovations, helping with the housework, etc. etc.
This reminds me of some of the examples in the DB and DR books. Perhaps, I'm getting hopeful - on the other hand there truly is a change in her.
We are getting to a big completion point in the renovation. I'm looking forward to that taking a back seat for a bit.
Has she gone to live with OM? Are the kids still with you?
WillDo:
Thanks for your post. Boys live with me full time. S11 was spending one night a week with her - but that has evaporated.
She lives alone. I was in her apt once.
She now spends most of her parenting time her at the house S16 has his own life. If she wants to see him, she needs to feed him, etc here.
She is spending some of her non parenting time here too. She is getting involved in our basement reno project etc.
Statuo Quo continues. W spends much of her parenting time here. She cleans the bathroom, etc when she is here. I try not to "pressure" her as Sandi2 says.
Our basement reno is about 75% complete. We have a beautiful functioning 2nd bathroom and we can do laundry again in the house.
After she accepting numerous family time invitations from me and declining and no showing a few too, she invited me to a restaurant meal with her and the boys. I never turn down a free meal.
We continue this coexistence. No progress forwards or backwards.
Bigy
RD500 had a WW who cleaned the house, came and went as she chose.
It is my view that whilst friendship and connection is good, drifting in and out of your space is not. I guess you don't do that in hers. Eventually this strategy seems to irritate teenagers, I often read, you want to be my mum? Then be a proper mum to me and a W to dad. They back off usually emotionally. That is what I perceive. They have their dad and their home, a mum who is not fully involved is a by line. There isn't much you can do, this is mums decision.
I personally would like to see you start LRT, that means privacy and boundaries with your space.
The lighthouse and picnic strategy is a really great one, although the lighthouse isn't open all hours! And the picnic is available at meal times only.
You are a great organised dad, you have to be. Each parent has their own personal style of parenting. Feeding and cleaning being acts of service. So I would stop on the weekly meetings or set up online.
You are doing great
V
Vanilla:
Thanks for your note. I'll look for RD500's thread.
I'm not familar with the picnic strategy. I do love the lighthouse.
FYI - Weekly meetings never happened. She suggested them, we had one. At week two I asked about it - no response. That was 8 months ago. Now I just make all the decisions. I leave paperwork for her in a binder in the kitchen. I don't schedule things for the boys on her time. We don't co-parent and we don't parallel parent. We coexist.
For the record- she does not come and go as she pleases. She only come to the house on her parenting days. That's the boundary. It's still her house and it's where her sons live 100% of the time. I don't interfere. S11 spend Saturday's with her most of the time at her apt. He sleeps here.
Most of the time when she is here, I'm out taking in some GAL or in the basement working on our renovation. There is almost 0 small talk. If a meal is being served about 50% of the time I join them.
When she is here she pitches in. I don't expect it and/or encourage it. I simply say thank you. I know that as soon as I start counting/relying on her - that's when a problem will begin.
I'm keen to see what happens between the boys and mom as time marches on.
I've watched the LRT video's at least three times and I think I'm following the advice MWD gives and have embraced the LRT. As my DB coach said to me months ago - This is a process not an event.
Thank you for the clarification.
V
Sorry I could not find the Picnic strategy
Spit
BUM
FART
the real picnic Apologies
V
Vanilla:
Thanks for taking the time to find the picnic story for me.
Going back to the mantra - do what works, I'm seeing a change in my Rapunzel. The key is to not focus on it and or expect it. Just keep laying out the picnic everyday and enjoying the picnic, no matter who attends.
Well roller coaster ride continues.
Yesterday, W ask if we should file joint tax returns this year. I told her she should as her accountant. She then said she did not have one and we should file them jointly. I was confused. I told her OK.
I'll look into what is best for me - but it seemed odd that she did not want to take the next step towards D. Not mind reading, not expecting anything - it may be cake eating.
As I said, I was confused.
Part II
A six weeks ago W and I discussed S11 changing schools (we are both unhappy with the current school). We split the job in two. I researched the possible schools W was to contact S11's current school to find out about the transfer.
I did my part, informed her and left it. When W brought up the taxes and that topic was over - I asked her about what information she had from the school. W went on to say she has been busy, etc etc - then asked me to contact the school as I walk S11 to school everyday.
I said No. She has the relationship with the school office and she said she would do it. So I've left it. I'm guessing that she won't do anything about it.
If I take over and arrange for the transfer, I'm letting her off the hook and will probably feed the I'm controlling, etc narrative.
If I don't take over - S11 will languish at the current school.
The saga continues.
Well deadline for school transfer was March 15th, W tells me on April 3. A blow for S11 - He'll be stuck at his current school for another year. W has still spending her parenting time at the house. It's easier for S16 to get his homework done etc. I try to be absent when W is here (GAL). She still helps around the house.
On Palm Sunday D21 met us at church, we went out for lunch - came back to the house where we did Love Languages quiz. Aside from being a fun activity, I'm hoping that the love language results will help the kids and I get closer.
I've been sticking to the DB coach's guidance. GAL, be strong, try to rebuild a friendship, etc etc.
W - came over on Good Friday while family and friends were over, Easter Sunday after we got back from my sister's - W came over watched a movie with the boys and I. W shared some of her current struggles at work.
Coach encouraged me to ask W to meet one on one i.e. a coffee date. Yesterday, I took the risk - W said no. I did not react, hardly responded.
I'll continue with GAL, being consistent, and roll with the punches.
Hey BB,
Just read through; looking back you have made progress from when you started. It hurts to not be where you really want to be (I suppose that's why we are supposed to detach).
Everything I've read says that when you start to see progress something you are doing is working. But, your W has things to work through herself and it takes time. Sometimes a no isn't a bad thing. Unfortunately her mind and feelings aren't something you can control but that doesn't mean they aren't changing. You seem to be in a pretty good place with the kids and yourself. Always work to do, but time is your friend. Make sure you see the small victories you've achieved.
You've had some great advice on here, rereading is always good when you have doubts. If you aren't already, a personal counselor is a good person to talk to as well. Mine helps me walk through the things I want to say and vent, she's also read DR and likes MWD so she knows the language I'm using and my end goals.
Ok - for the past year W has not attended teacher meetings, interviews, etc. Last week I informed her that S11 teacher emailed me about behaviour issues. Teacher suggested we meet. I told W that about the email and told her she may want to set up her own meeting with the teacher. W was insistent that she we both should be at the meeting.
I simply said, we've not been working together, I've attended all the meetings etc on my own so far. I will attend this one solo.
She asked for a copy of the email, I did "reluctantly" agree - but did send it.
This coexisting seems to persist.
Feeling really crummy today. Lots going on. I've kept my mouth shut when dealing with W. Money troubles rattle my confidence too.
Make your faith bigger than your fear...
Thornton:
Thanks for your post. We are all on an up and down ride. Funny it's not fear that's my problem it's frustration. Right now, moving forward is stalled by my financial woes.
Feeling glum for the past few days. Then it hit me. We've been living separately for a year. Plus, the few convo's we have about kids, house, etc - end up in spew. I stick to business - but this time it's her bringing up the past, etc, etc.
Question: W has deep resentment that pops up - stirs the pot then she runs away. Then the cycle repeats.
Last week - I asked W for a few minutes to discuss S11 after school activities for Fall 2107 - she said yes.
Discussed bulk of the matter - she was OK with 50%. I pitched an idea I had for the other 50% - she was not OK. And that happens with the best married couples. I told her it was an idea, happy to look at other options.
Then it started. Where is the $ coming from for my idea... She does not get to see S11, S16 enough. She felt she had to leave/ I forced her the house last year, I was not giving her any options - she implied I had compromised her legal rights.
I said to her: I did not force her to leave, under Ontario law she could move back in at any time. If she wanted to discuss this we should set up a time to do this. She brought up a few related items, I said (calmly I think), I only wanted to give you a brief update on the after school program, I did not want this conversation to dissolve.
Well she left and was tense with me every interaction all week. So
I'm not going to bring it up again ( we are both avoider so, I confident she won't either).
Life is going on, it may crop up again. I'm certain that the resentment is brewing, etc, etc. It will crop up again.
How do we break this cycle? I'm happy to change my habits/patterns and I do with little impact.
We are about 85% N/C
I've tried to be business like - only handle one issue, email/text an agenda for a meeting, etc W still ignores me. I handle things on my own, resentment builds and pops up.
Any ideas on how to break this very dumb cycle?
Question: W has deep resentment that pops up - stirs the pot then she runs away. Then the cycle repeats.
Bigy, I found your thread!
Okay so before I speak to the big elephant in the room, (as if I really could zip thru all of it -I wish),
I do want to ask what you think your w felt when you cut her out of joining you at the conference. Did you think she'd slap her forehead and want to move back in then??
On one hand, you want her to co-parent but you feel she has fallen short in big ways (no argument there).
So when she does want to step up and when SHE IS invited to join you in a parent teacher conference (not a "better parent" teacher conference)
you punish her by forcing her to grovel and get her own appointment, or get the info thru you.
Any mother (or father) would have felt their noses rubbed in their failures then, which of course sets them back on the "convert shame into blame" routine.
Be careful what you wish for...
Last week - I asked W for a few minutes to discuss S11 after school activities for Fall 2107 - she said yes.
Discussed bulk of the matter - she was OK with 50%. I pitched an idea I had for the other 50% - she was not OK. And that happens with the best married couples. I told her it was an idea, happy to look at other options.
Then it started. Where is the $ coming from for my idea... She does not get to see S11, S16 enough. She felt she had to leave/ I forced her the house last year, I was not giving her any options - she implied I had compromised her legal rights.
any truth at all, to ^^^this? Did she consult a L?
I said to her: I did not force her to leave, under Ontario law she could move back in at any time. If she wanted to discuss this we should set up a time to do this. She brought up a few related items, I said (calmly I think), I only wanted to give you a brief update on the after school program, I did not want this conversation to dissolve.
is this "set up a time" strategy working for you? For her?
For the recon I presume you want?
Which brings me to that question...what is it, you actually want, going forward?
Well she left and was tense with me every interaction all week. So
I'm not going to bring it up again ( we are both avoider so, I confident she won't either).
have you gotten T or IC for this^^? I think if you remain conflict avoidant, which imo underlies a huge number of divorces,
are you not saying that part of your m would be the same, if you reconcile?
You need new tools for talking about everything.
My DB coach used to say "keep the road home, paved and smooth" and I agreed with that.
But I'd modify it to add , "and then in piecing, smash/climb the boulders in the path."
SOME of what you are writing is not a smooth, paved road home, but a jagged one that is sure to cut her feet.
Maybe that's something you feel is needed to be sure your w is really invested, but I think you may be making it really hard for her to want to invest. KWIM?
I'd focus on the good times together and what she CAN taste, while knowing she's not really there. Like game nights (or whatever your family bonding times were) still involving her.
SOME will say "too much cake eating!!" 2 responses. First, as my DB coach said, "to an extent, all WAS's get to cake eat for awhile b/c we want to reconcile"
(which bugged me when I first heard it but I take her point)
Secondly, having some fun together and knowing she has times away, time in which those bonding moments will not occur, is giving her something to miss. Not a stoic cold h and resentful kids to flee from.
She'll have a hard enough time admitting she f---ked up, let's not continue to remind her of maternal failures. I cannot think of a way to make a woman feel worse about herself. And I don't think that bodes well for a recon.
More likely cornering her into the need to be right, and that only feeling of being right, probably only comes, if she stays away.
Life is going on, it may crop up again. I'm certain that the resentment is brewing, etc, etc. It will crop up again.
so how will you address conflicts that ALL Lives and marriages have, better from this day forward?
How do we break this cycle? I'm happy to change my habits/patterns and I do with little impact.
We are about 85% N/C
but you are mostly N/C b/c of the conflict avoidance, correct? Isn't that a big part of how you got here in the first place?
Conflicts are Not avoided. Conflicts delayed, tend to fester and metastasize.
I've tried to be business like - only handle one issue, email/text an agenda for a meeting, etc W still ignores me. I handle things on my own, resentment builds and pops up.
Any ideas on how to break this very dumb cycle?
You need to see someone who can help you detach enough yet be authentic. Business like works for the transactional aspects, at best.
Not for authentic emotional issues. Somehow you must remain calm and not in attack mode
but you are allowed to say you are in pain, without attack, are you not?
Have you seen someone about this?
MLC and everyone else.
Thanks for your post. To answer some of your questions 1st
What do I want - Reconciliation - that's it.
I've never heard the term shame to blame. It makes lots of sense and very applicable here.
- According to the L I spoke to her rights are in place and I did nothing that impacts her rights. I saw one piece of mail from a L to W. So I'm guessing she has consulted a L.
From previous convo's she has stated that I made in house sep impossible for her and she had no other option but to move out.
I love the term - make sure the path home is smooth. I wish my DB coach had said that to me. My DB coach emphasized rebuilding the friendship. I had a hard time with that sentiment.
In MWD's books and LRT videos she stressed that we need to encourage our WAS to participate in family time etc. My WW/WAS has been eating lots of cake. She accepts about 85% of my invitations. As far as I'm concerned it's good for my kids to be with their mom, etc.
It's cake eating. I invite, I pay, I manage all the details, etc. I don't chase or tailor the invite to her. I simply state this what we are doing - do you want to join us?
We are 85% NC. There is no chit chat via text, I don't ask her "where the crock pot is' etc. Yes, when we've had business discussions we slip into the personal/emotional -almost every time. We both do it. Conflict avoidance is an issue. So is chasing/running. Most importantly she has stated that she is fear of me.
Yes, I've talked to everyone to deal with the many issues going on.
Psychiatrist - IC, Pastor - IC, Family Therapist. Lots of progress, lots of work to do. Never stop improving.
So how do I break this. I need a new habit. Not sure where to start. 12 months ago she suggested regular meetings, never happened, I suggest an issue based meeting, never happen.
I leave her notes with her mail, I update the family calendar, All the documents are in a common binder. All seem to be ignored.
My income taxes are due in 4 days. Two weeks ago, I asked her for her info -still no reply. I've been very easy going about it. Still frustrating.
Any ideas on how to start a new good/healthy habit? What are the tools you speak of. Most of the research I have done suggests things I've tried and will keep trying
i.e. set up regular meetings, handle one issue at a time, don't do it too late, do it when in a good mood/timing (strike when iron is cold).
So where does this leave me?
I told W a few days ago: If divorce is ahead of us so be it. I told her that she and I are not enemy's. Until D happens I will treat her with the Love and Grace I should be treating my W.
What does that mean?
So far I've been "returning the ball slowly". When she sends a passive aggressive note, my response is not neutral, not hostile - I try and be helpful. If she asks for something, I'll give it if I can.
I will not bend over backwards to accommodate her.
Big words, hard to execute, easy to say.
I know I can only change myself. So the onus is me to do things differently - that may or may not have an impact on W.
I do no that the same old same old is not going to work.