Background:
- m and ww in 30s
- s4
- m 11 yrs, t12
- over a year of emotional detachment
-ilybinilwy ~5/16 + request for OM
-individual coaching to connect for one month
- bd 7/16, confirm ea and strongly suspected pa
- mc, ic for both, db coaching for me
Ww refused to stop contact after ea confirmed. Broke many of the db rules over time but have been adhering to them for about a month. She lies about all aspects of the A and says I'm wrong to focus on the OM and we should try to reconnect instead.
She is constantly on her phone and there is plenty of evidence of ongoin correspondence. I have been more aloof about it but sandi2's writings really got me thinking. I'm more driven to not put up with an OM.
I had my third coaching session today and was generally feeling ok. Took our son out for a nice afternoon and when we got back, some friends happened to be over. There was a pile of packages in front of the garage and I needed to move them to get in. (Of course, it's my job to bring them in) One of them is from OM. I'm just shaking and am sick of this abuse.
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
The first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htmYou may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH. Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
I would have taken a fcking hammer to the package from OM. Probably the wrong thing to do. I don't know.
Sorry about your situation, but glad you found us.
What have you learned from the coaching sessions? It seems the advice you get from coaching don't always line up w/ the advice you get here in the forum.
What's your W's overall personality like? (Before all this....) Having an affair blows but ... it's good that she's willing to work on reconnecting. Some (i.e., me) don't even get that much from a WW.
What does it mean that your W "requested OM?" She asked to, basically, have an open marriage?
p.s. Please put your background in your signature ("My Profile" -> "Edit Profile")
I want to thank sandi2 so much. While I'm less a fan of ww's than ever before, I feel that what she has contributed to this board has truly helped people like me and she should feel good about herself. Her perspective is invaluable and she's a good writer to boot.
Yup she asked for open marriage when denying any A.
Thank you. My feeling was to set the package on fire or throw it in the river, along with other stuff.
Ww has always been super strong willed and we had plenty of problems throughout our marriage(criticism, sex, division of labor) and have gone to counseling before but we always agreed it was bad and ineffective. Our current counsellors are better. We agree that we work together well on big things but not on little ones. One of our best periods was when we were dealing with infertility, IVF, pregnancy, and my losing and finding a new job.
Coaching has emphasized connection and being friends. Not bad stuff but I have a bigger problem and have been through too much abuse. She is not really looking to connect. We were given an exercise in mc that she always is too busy to do. She just wants to cake eat.
I'll add my signature soon.
Jug, you are right.
Sandi, Cadet, Job, Wonka etc all legendary.
Keep up the good work.
Surfer.
Can you detail your marital problems further? What were conflicts that you had in the M? Be objective. The more honest you are, the better.
I criticized, wasn't a good listener, and was rather grumpy for the past few years. Our son had a number of medical issues and was generally difficult. She gets migraines and needs more help. We don't have family close by that could help. I helped but was grumpy. I rarely got a break between work and taking over with the baby. I pushed for breaks to go exercise and do my hobbies and she felt abandoned. Our sex life was never good...
At this stage, where there is active/willful EA, I think MC probably won't do much for you guys. Just my amateur opinion. But it's amazing that she is still willing to do MC with you! That says something.
She'd probably benefit from doing some IC, if willing, so she can sort out what the hell she wants out of life, marriage and a partner.
Does she work outside the home?
I criticized, wasn't a good listener, and was rather grumpy for the past few years. Our son had a number of medical issues and was generally difficult. She gets migraines and needs more help. We don't have family close by that could help. I helped but was grumpy. I rarely got a break between work and taking over with the baby. I pushed for breaks to go exercise and do my hobbies and she felt abandoned. Our sex life was never good...
So she started ic first, well before I found out about the A. She claims the om idea came from the counsellor. Also, when I asked if we could see that one as a couple, she said the counsellor refused because she's too partial to the Ww. It has always smelled bad.
Ww is a sahm and hasn't worked since we've been married. Our son is 4 so you do the math. She has a college degree from a prestigious school too.
Our couples mc sessions seemed to be an act on her part to "show that she's trying." We were given exercises that she was either too tired to do or just half a$$ed. One of her favorite lines is "I'm here, aren't I?" We have a session Friday and I booked an "emergency" coaching session for today. Plan to speak to a L this week as well.
She doesn't know that I know about the package.
Just keep POSTING and one other bit of advice from Wonka
that I totally agree with.
Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.
It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.
We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.
Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.
I criticized, wasn't a good listener, and was rather grumpy for the past few years. Our son had a number of medical issues and was generally difficult. She gets migraines and needs more help. We don't have family close by that could help. I helped but was grumpy. I rarely got a break between work and taking over with the baby. I pushed for breaks to go exercise and do my hobbies and she felt abandoned. Our sex life was never good...
Jug, sorry to hear about this sitch. Understand where you are at mentally. You listed these items above. What have you thought about them and have you taken any action to address change within yourself if you felt they had validity? Also, "sex life was never good" is that your statement of truth or is that something she said?
I have the DR book as well as two books recommended by the coach and a stack of others on affairs and communication. Some I've read several times.
I own my contributions to the marriage not being good and have been working on them. They are rooted in attitude and she has even commented on my improvements some times. "I'm jealous of your next wife."
I've also been attending cbt sessions for my anxiety. It seems to help.
I recognize that these things all benefit me even if my marriage is doomed.
I agree that the sex life was never good and that certainly didn't help. Can me a cause and a symptom.
Hi Jug, sorry to hear about the problems in your MR. You seem willing enough to try in getting help/advice. Has the subject of betrayal and the affair been addressed by the MC?
Ww refused to stop contact after ea confirmed. Broke many of the db rules over time but have been adhering to them for about a month. She lies about all aspects of the A and says I'm wrong to focus on the OM and we should try to reconnect instead.
Did she propose a plan of how to reconnect with a third party in the M?
If you can give us more marital history, it helps us get a clearer picture. Can you briefly describe the two of you before M? (How you got along, etc.)
Has there ever been any type of inappropriate communication or contact with people of the opposite sex since the M?
What would your W do with her time, before having a child?
Has the sex life in the M
always been bad? And, by that, do you mean she wasn't as interested? Have you been living in a SSM?
P.S. Thank you for the encouraging things you had to say.
Hi Jug, sorry to hear about the problems in your MR. You seem willing enough to try in getting help/advice. Has the subject of betrayal and the affair been addressed by the MC?
It was addressed and Ww refused to speak about it or propose ways to address my feelings.
Ww refused to stop contact after ea confirmed. Broke many of the db rules over time but have been adhering to them for about a month. She lies about all aspects of the A and says I'm wrong to focus on the OM and we should try to reconnect instead.
Did she propose a plan of how to reconnect with a third party in the M?
No. She brought up the OM before my knowledge of the A.
If you can give us more marital history, it helps us get a clearer picture. Can you briefly describe the two of you before M? (How you got along, etc.)
The story of how we met is romantic and exciting. Involves a lot of travel because we only dated long distance. We married quickly and without much in person contact.
Has there ever been any type of inappropriate communication or contact with people of the opposite sex since the M?
Not that I'm aware of.
What would your W do with her time, before having a child?
She has always played video games and we watched movies and tv together. She used to read a lot as well.
Has the sex life in the M
always been bad? And, by that, do you mean she wasn't as interested? Have you been living in a SSM?
It really was always bad. I was pushy and we had lots of fights about it early on, even agreeing that I couldn't initiate anything. And none for over a year now.
P.S. Thank you for the encouraging things you had to say.
You are welcome! Thank you for reading my posts!
Coaching has emphasized connection and being friends.
Have they explained why this approach makes sense?
I would guess your W sees you as a platonic friend, and just working on being friends will only deepen her conviction that you're not husband material (i.e., romantic, sexual partner). What do you think?
Had a session today with a different coach. Both emphasized the friend angle and how it's important to detach and be friendly so that it is inviting to reconnect. I agree with that. I probably haven't been as friendly since the package discovery since I was so pissed and hurt. I was not sold on why I shouldn't initiate separation for my sanity/self worth/unwillingness to be in OM. That is the plan. Today's coach recognized sandi2's contributions and didn't say anything against her.
Sandi2 - I'm set on initiating financial and physical separation. Any other tips/suggestions? I've definitely let go and am not (as) afraid of it. I'm not looking for any particular outcome but just see that either one will be better than the torture/humiliation I'm going through now.
Coaching has emphasized connection and being friends.
Have they explained why this approach makes sense?
I would guess your W sees you as a platonic friend, and just working on being friends will only deepen her conviction that you're not husband material (i.e., romantic, sexual partner). What do you think?
I think you are right gump, especially when she hasn't broken contact with OM. Btw, I think our situations are very similar and I feel for you. Hang in there.
Jug.
Just ring fence finances and detach. That's it for now.
Focus on smaller steps and work towards being happy in you by GAL, looking after you (sleep, eat, detach, read the paper on the toilet - that kind of thing).
Surfer.
Just ring fence finances...
What does that mean?
Jug:
I find your situation interesting. Your W has a degree from a prestigious college. Is it a useful degree? Also, does she have good life skills? Could she be on her own, and make it? Or is she dependent on you for finances and for running a household in general?
Rushing into marriage ... I think a fair number of people who find themselves here have done that, including myself.
Jug:
I find your situation interesting. Your W has a degree from a prestigious college. Is it a useful degree? Also, does she have good life skills? Could she be on her own, and make it? Or is she dependent on you for finances and for running a household in general?
Rushing into marriage ... I think a fair number of people who find themselves here have done that, including myself.
It's not a super marketable degree. She is financially dependent and also needs a lot of help with our son. She could be on her own but I know it would be tough. Not a good reason to stay together though.
Update on the situation:
Had dinner as a family and wife talked about how she met with a consultant for resumes. It made for a sad dinner. After son went to bed she said she wanted to talk and could tell something was bothering her. I brought up the package and it really turns out that it wasn't from the OM and she showed the credit card statement and everything. It was a weird mix up. She said that I have been acting weird and unfriendly and she can't take it. We got into a lot of things. I will work to be friendlier like the coach said. I feel silly but somewhat relieved. It's not like all is well but it's not quite as bad as I thought. I did a 180 but not really the kind in supposed to...
Oh I did use validation in our talk though.
It's not a super marketable degree. She is financially dependent and also needs a lot of help with our son. She could be on her own but I know it would be tough. Not a good reason to stay together though.
I was asking not as a reason to stay together or not, but to possibly understand her feelings. I think W's inability to be independent -- or have it be a big challenge -- can make them feel trapped, and increases their contempt for their H as the source of her unhappiness, and makes it more likely for her to feel rebellious/immature/irrational (thereby become a WW) rather than deal with it more rationally (and be a WAS). It's not just finances I'm talking about, but the general ability to deal with the challenges of being an adult, a parent, a partner. Some people don't have good life skills.
I brought up the package and it really turns out that it wasn't from the OM
You had me all worked up for nothing! I smashed that package in my head with a hammer!
But, seriously, what does this mean for the "confirmed EA" in your signature? Are you still sure about the EA, and feel PA is also possible? Maybe the EA/PA are also a misunderstanding...? That would give you a lot of hope for the R.
It's not a super marketable degree. She is financially dependent and also needs a lot of help with our son. She could be on her own but I know it would be tough. Not a good reason to stay together though.
I was asking not as a reason to stay together or not, but to possibly understand her feelings. I think W's inability to be independent -- or have it be a big challenge -- can make them feel trapped, and increases their contempt for their H as the source of her unhappiness, and makes it more likely for her to feel rebellious/immature/irrational (thereby become a WW) rather than deal with it more rationally (and be a WAS). It's not just finances I'm talking about, but the general ability to deal with the challenges of being an adult, a parent, a partner. Some people don't have good life skills.
Gotcha. Very insightful. I think she lacks in those areas and has some of that going on.
I brought up the package and it really turns out that it wasn't from the OM
You had me all worked up for nothing! I smashed that package in my head with a hammer!
But, seriously, what does this mean for the "confirmed EA" in your signature? Are you still sure about the EA, and feel PA is also possible? Maybe the EA/PA are also a misunderstanding...? That would give you a lot of hope for the R.
Unfortunately, the EA is confirmed. I know who OM is and have seen confirmed gifts and correspondence.
Gump,
I found all of the stuff from snooping, btw. I know it's something you struggle with. For me, all of the signs were there and I didn't want to be in the dark. Seeing the stuff is definitely unpleasant but I'd rather know the truth. Kind of like the matrix...
How many of you with WW's have separated finances?
Hey Jug,
Our finances are still intertwined. I believe we're getting close to starting the process on a S agreement and after that's in place I'll work to get things officially separated.
W is a SAHM so she's dependent upon the money coming from my job. Until we get that agreement in place it's probably best to keep it all in the same pot. That said, I still monitor the daily flows very closely.
Jug - My L advised me to not make any changes until agreed upon in mediation otherwise it will be taken poorly by the courts. With that said I put email alerts on all of our accounts so that I get notified within minutes of almost anything going on. I've also planned on how to shut them down as quickly as possible.
My bank advised me that for a joint account that all they can do is freeze funds.
With that said my WW has her own accounts and has stopped using our joint accounts from the day she moved out although I know she watches what I do there like a hawk.
Thanks for your replies. Both were very helpful. Good luck in your situations.
Seeing the stuff is definitely unpleasant but I'd rather know the truth.
I'd like someone to be the intermediary, who redacts stuff I don't need to know, and just tells me the gist, so I know where I stand and any sliver of hope I harbor in my heart is nuked to nothing.
I guess a private eye could do that. Also, wouldn't anything you don't need to know kill your hope?
I know the feeling all too well. Hang in there man.
Just how little were you and W face to face before getting M? You said something about long distance dating, and getting M quickly.
Sandi2 - I'm set on initiating financial and physical separation. Any other tips/suggestions? I've definitely let go and am not (as) afraid of it. I'm not looking for any particular outcome but just see that either one will be better than the torture/humiliation I'm going through now.
Don't threaten or say something you can't take back. Some people have the mistaken idea that getting out of the M will end their pain.
How is she reacting to your plans of separating, or have you told her?
Just how little were you and W face to face before getting M? You said something about long distance dating, and getting M quickly.
Sandi2 - I'm set on initiating financial and physical separation. Any other tips/suggestions? I've definitely let go and am not (as) afraid of it. I'm not looking for any particular outcome but just see that either one will be better than the torture/humiliation I'm going through now.
Don't threaten or say something you can't take back. Some people have the mistaken idea that getting out of the M will end their pain.
How is she reacting to your plans of separating, or have you told her?
We met maybe half a dozen times in person before getting married and each time we stayed together for at least a few days like a vacation.
Since finding out about the package not being what I thought it was, I have changed plans for now about physical separation. Will talk to a L tomorrow about financial separation. Not set on doing that but want to be informed.
What do you think sandi? Thanks again for your participation.
Well, I don't have a clear enough picture of the MR, yet, other than she's having an EA. You said she absolutely refuses to end contact with the OM? What does she say about the M? Is she saying she will not work to save the M? Has she asked for a D?
Did she actually say she wanted an open M?
Since finding out about the package not being what I thought it was, I have changed plans for now about physical separation. Will talk to a L tomorrow about financial separation. Not set on doing that but want to be informed.
If you do not want to S, or you aren't ready......then don't. How long has your W known that you were aware of the OM/EA?
Tell me more about the MR and the attitude in the home. Before you noticed her being on the phone so much, what was it like when you would get home from work?
Did you see a change in her attitude, around the time she started spending more time on the phone........or has it basically stayed the same since marrying her?
Do you and W come from similar backgrounds? Did each of you have good role models that actually lived in a healthy MR?
You said you both had counseling, but did you seek counseling specifically for the "bad sex" problem? Would she express her feelings toward physical intimacy......or just try to get through the act as quickly as possible, and avoid as much as she could? Has this been the one major obstacle in the relationship, or were there other things (before OM)?
Has she ever told you about any abuse in her childhood, or some tragedy, horrific experience that happened to her?
Sorry for all the questions. I would feel better knowing a little more information about the relationship, before giving specific advice. You may be tired of talking about it, due to your seeking several resources, but don't give up. Stick with us, okay?
Well, I don't have a clear enough picture of the MR, yet, other than she's having an EA. You said she absolutely refuses to end contact with the OM? What does she say about the M? Is she saying she will not work to save the M? Has she asked for a D?
Did she actually say she wanted an open M?
Since finding out about the package not being what I thought it was, I have changed plans for now about physical separation. Will talk to a L tomorrow about financial separation. Not set on doing that but want to be informed.
If you do not want to S, or you aren't ready......then don't. How long has your W known that you were aware of the OM/EA?
Tell me more about the MR and the attitude in the home. Before you noticed her being on the phone so much, what was it like when you would get home from work?
Did you see a change in her attitude, around the time she started spending more time on the phone........or has it basically stayed the same since marrying her?
Do you and W come from similar backgrounds? Did each of you have good role models that actually lived in a healthy MR?
You said you both had counseling, but did you seek counseling specifically for the "bad sex" problem? Would she express her feelings toward physical intimacy......or just try to get through the act as quickly as possible, and avoid as much as she could? Has this been the one major obstacle in the relationship, or were there other things (before OM)?
Has she ever told you about any abuse in her childhood, or some tragedy, horrific experience that happened to her?
Sorry for all the questions. I would feel better knowing a little more information about the relationship, before giving specific advice. You may be tired of talking about it, due to your seeking several resources, but don't give up. Stick with us, okay
So her stance is that she refuses to break contact with the OM as she says that I am "unstable." This is her word for not sleeping and being sad after being told ilybinilwy and also finding out about the A. I didn't yell, hit, or break anything.
She claims that she wants to have a romantic marriage and family with me more than anything but doesn't see that it's possible. She brought up the open M thing. The morning after finding out about the A, I wanted to move on a D and she put the brakes on. It does come up though.
She spent a lot more time on the phone since our son was born as she nursed and had him sleep on her a lot. The dynamic that she says led to this was me getting home from work crabby and only being critical when I spoke to her. Before our son was born, we did more stuff together and talked.
Neither of us have great role models. Both of us have overbearing fathers. I have tried to not be like mine and she has not allowed anyone to treat her in any way like he treats her mom. I don't believe there is a history of abuse other than being overbearing.
Sex was as you described with avoiding and always trying to get it over with. We went to counseling for it years ago and gave up as it was ineffective. Her current therapist is actually a sex therapist. Ww claims that her focus before was on her low drive but realizes now that it was about me and how pushy and not listening I was. It didn't help things but it's hard to say whether it was our major obstacle. It could be argued that it led to my crabbiness and focus on my hobbies. I do own that I wasn't appreciative enough of her. I know that I have a lot of the characteristics that you write about like conflict avoidance and being passive aggressive.
Thank you for your help and I will stick around. I look forward to your guidance!
Oh yeah, she has said that I focus too much on her breaking contact while I should work on just being friendly. It's a bit of an impasse. We have couples mc on Friday. I know that there has been recent communication with OM and it sickens and disheartens me.
Sandi-
I have been aware of the EA for a month now and it has been going on since at least October. Again, it's a long distance thing.
The LBS does tend to focus on the OP, which is understandable. Here's the thing. The MR can't work as long as she is turning to this OM to fill her emotional needs. The root of the problem was already there before OM entered the picture. Now that there is a 3rd person, it causes another problem in addition to what was already there.
Affairs of any kind are addictive. The only way to break the addiction is to go cold turkey and never contact the OP again. No FB, photos, nothing!
I believe this M can be saved! In spite of the EA, the bad sex, and the overall bad attitude in the MR. It isn't going to be a short fix.....as you probably know by your experiences with counselors. There are some counselors who offer solution solving methods, and then there are counselors who just want you to talk about everything. If you do not have a counselor who works with you to find a method in solving your problems, it's of my opinion to find another one. I also think you can have too many sources giving their advice at one time, b/c it can cause confusion for the LBS.
Unfortunately, MC will not be successful for your W as long as she is in her EA. Even after she cuts all avenues of contact with OM, he will be in her head for an indefinite period of time. If she realizes she has to help herself to get him out of her head, she'll get through the withdrawals faster. This all has to do with her will and determination to be over OM/EA, and to willingly work to save her MR.
So, the EA is a major problem in the MR. From what I have learned, it's really more about how the A makes her feel. In fact, some women will jump from OM#1 to OM#2, and so on. B/c it isn't really that male person she adores, but rather how he makes her feel special.
If she felt that you were constantly critical, negative, grumpy, etc., it could have affected her "in-love" feelings dramatically. There are several possibilities, considering you saw things changing after the baby was born. She could have been depressed, which happens with a lot of women. If she gained weight, stayed in the house too much, withdrew from others......her self esteem could be suffering. Does she have body image issues?
Some of what you say about her, falls within the description of a WW. Waywards are filled with a ton of resentment (from years gone by until the present time). Waywards blame the H for everything that is wrong in her life. Waywards feel a lot of disrespect for the H, and it will show in her attitude, as well as other ways. (Some women are worse than others). Some H's get so accustomed to his W's bad attitude, until I wonder if he realizes all the ways she really is showing him disrespect.
Resentment, bitterness, blaming, throwing tantrums, entitlement, selfishness, escaping from reality into a fantasy world, lying, acting like a teenager, becoming very private about her phone and keeping it with her at all times, becoming more particular in her physical appearance, frequently going out to bar/party with just "her friends", find excuses to spend the night & weekends away from home without her H .....these are possible signs of a wayward wife (and there are more, but these are enough for now). A WW doesn't have to own all these behaviors, but she usually has most of them. Her anger usually leads her to rebel in some form or fashion. Here on the board, we usually see their rebellion in having an affair....or acting like a girl gone wild. One thing for certain.....she's not the girl you married!
I would like to tell some newcomer H's who have a WW that she does not experience fear or guilt in the way some H's want to believe. Not if she is wayward. You see, most H's try to rationalize why his W has turned into this selfish, cold hearted female from hell. But you can't do it. A wayward is not logical. And as for the feelings of guilt or fear.......if there were any......the selfishness that motivates her, would override it. She is going to look out for herself and how she will benefit the most. I think there are a few things that separates her from the WAW & MLC.......and that is she doesn't feel guilt or fear the way H's want to think they do. They aren't living in fear. Not the wayward! Plus, their guilt isn't there b/c they are going to justify their actions. The guilt doesn't really hit them until the period of remorse comes.....after their fantasy collapses and she experiences loss. As long as she is willfully doing what she wants, regardless of who it hurts.....she is not remorseful.
Long post, so I better stop and save for next time.
P.S. For right now, I would avoid talking about your plans with her. Keep a poker face. Don't get into relationship talks with her.
Thanks so much sandi! That is the most encouraging thing I've seen today! Is it worth addressing breaking contact with the OM at mc tomorrow? Any other thoughts for what to say there and strategies for breaking contact?
Some things to consider: even before all of this, Ww has been one of the most stubborn people.
Her ic who she likes and respects told her last weekend that she needs to find herself, preferably with me.
She doesn't have body issues any more than the typical woman. She didn't put on weight after pregnancy and has always been (truly objectively) very beautiful and trim. She has however started to exercise like crazy and is more fit. She can check off almost all of the boxes for signs of a Ww.
She has however started to exercise like crazy and is more fit.
That's my W!!!
...after their fantasy collapses and she experiences loss.
There must be many different ways that WW's are awakened from their fantasies, and much depends on individual situations and
*personalities* of the WW's.
What are some of the ways that you've seen WW's wake up? When they're rejected by OM's? (But some keep seeking more/other OM's...?) In particular, I'm wondering if WW's wake up from practical/economic results of divorce or separation. For example, if a SAHM realizes she needs to work 40 hrs at a menial job after a D ... could that wake her up? It seems many WW's -- since they are primarily driven by emotions/immaturity -- practical consequences just aren't going to wake them up?
I realize there are no concrete rules... just wanting to hear thoughts/opinions.
I'm no Sandi.
But I'd say no to having to work/earn money. Being rejected or losing the AP might help some, but you never know if they'll want to come home or just go out looking for some other fix. I think it has more to do with losing YOU. Seeing you becoming a better man, even better than you were when they were happy and in love with you. Watching you change, knowing you're doing just fine w/o them while they're spinning and don't really know what to do.
My WW is starting to wake up some. She's having to deal with insurance, surgery, being a Single Mom, money, etc ALONG with watching me change and seeing how I don't need her to be happy. It's a long process. It's been 3mos, and she's just started to verbalize a slight fear that I might make the decision to leave. It starts with those seeds and eventually, (Sandi can fill in details here) they realize what they've done, the hurt and pain they've caused, what they'd be losing etc etc.
Rsg,
I read your story and I'm glad things seem to be looking up for you, both for yourself and your relationship. Hang in there!
But I'd say no to having to work/earn money.
Just to be clear ... you mean that work/money issues will NOT wake up a WW?
I think it has more to do with losing YOU. Seeing you becoming a better man, even better than you were when they were happy and in love with you. Watching you change, knowing you're doing just fine w/o them while they're spinning and don't really know what to do.
This is
golden!!! Thank you. A great reminder.
You're no Sandi2 -- indeed, you are RSG!!!
Had a call with a L and have a good feel for things now.
Had a cbt session and learned more breathing exercises. They seem to help some.
Anyone have tips on the mc session tomorrow?
I highly doubt that JUST work/$$ will bring a woman home. She'll complain to you (or possibly about you), but it won't bring her home. She has to lose something.....
I'm glad I was able to give you a little inspiration Forrest lol. I'm having a rough night, seeing that Momma bear name in another thread brought the house down for me. I haven't felt like giving up this much before, seeing so little change in W that I might as well just D her now. Sigh. Fight through it until tomorrow....
Jug, thanks for the support. I'm inching ever closer to a frightened squirrel, but progress is there.
Rsg,
Sorry you're having such a rough night. Fight some more and feel good that you did. I'm setting a date for myself for when I'd throw in the towel. We'll see how things go tomorrow.
I really love the community here. I just want to hug everyone!
We talked about looking for a job. Definitely messes with my head. I can see part of it as getting pity and part of it as just having a foot out the door. She keeps saying that she doesn't want to live out of her car.
Why set a date?In my view it is counterproductive.It adds pressure, even if only on you. I completely understand not wanting to continue as is indefinitely.
What does throwing in the towel look like to you?
Many previous posters who have been here a long time, tended to say that they will know when they are done. Until then the follow their path. What that path is is up to you.
So what are you working on today? What are your plans for the weekend?
Stop mind reading. Talk is cheap. When she gets a job that is different but even then, that is not necessarily a bad thing. Until that happens it is futile to stress about it.
Why set a date?In my view it is counterproductive.It adds pressure, even if only on you. I completely understand not wanting to continue as is indefinitely.
What does throwing in the towel look like to you?
Many previous posters who have been here a long time, tended to say that they will know when they are done. Until then the follow their path. What that path is is up to you.
So what are you working on today? What are your plans for the weekend?
Stop mind reading. Talk is cheap. When she gets a job that is different but even then, that is not necessarily a bad thing. Until that happens it is futile to stress about it.
Thanks for the thoughts and good vibes.
Throwing in the towel means D. We are at an impasse because she's not breaking contact. Continuing to live like this is abusive to me.
I am currently working on all of the db advice, especially being friendly. I read every day, journal(not just here), and do my cbt exercises. I take care of myself physically and already take care of and play with my son(more than Ww).
You are absolutely right about the fortune telling thing. Thanks. Straight out of cbt.
We have couples mc today and I'm putting together a plan, trying to focus on addressing the no contact thing. We keep getting diverted...
Plans for this weekend are to do stuff with son and generally house stuff. Ww is going to a movie with a (non OM) friend.
Some good work going on there.Keep it up or better stillbuild on it.
I have not reread all your posts do I cannot comment fully on OM. I advise to not let him consume your mind. V difficult to do but in essence you choose how and what you think.
It does sound like a boundary is needed. Before MC, know what consequences you decide to implement if boundary continues to be broken. For the record, there are many many consequences and not automatically D.
You cannot work on a M with a third person, so stop working on it. No more MC, no more R talks, at minimum. Afterwards you choose how far is appropriate as a consequence.
Best wishes. Good luck with MC.
Thanks roist! I'm open to suggestions for boundaries.
Rsg,
Sorry you're having such a rough night. Fight some more and feel good that you did. I'm setting a date for myself for when I'd throw in the towel.
Thanks Jug. I made it through yesterday, doing ok again today! I agree with the others, don't set a date as it just creates added stress on you. As for boundaries re the dbag around your W, I'd say 2 things: Try your hardest not to mention them. Even though they'll never say it, it will surprise your W. Don't worry about him. He is likely a loser, and someone who kisses her butt no matter what nonsensical thing she's saying.
When my W left, she took S with her (that day) because she said I was "unstable" too based on having a natural, emotional reaction. It's a way for them to be in control, and project THEIR lack of mental stability on to you.
You're still living together? That's harder for me to give advice about. All I can really say is do your thing, don't ask about what she's doing....
Rsg,
Sorry you're having such a rough night. Fight some more and feel good that you did. I'm setting a date for myself for when I'd throw in the towel.
Thanks Jug. I made it through yesterday, doing ok again today! I agree with the others, don't set a date as it just creates added stress on you. As for boundaries re the dbag around your W, I'd say 2 things: Try your hardest not to mention them. Even though they'll never say it, it will surprise your W. Don't worry about him. He is likely a loser, and someone who kisses her butt no matter what nonsensical thing she's saying.
When my W left, she took S with her (that day) because she said I was "unstable" too based on having a natural, emotional reaction. It's a way for them to be in control, and project THEIR lack of mental stability on to you.
You're still living together? That's harder for me to give advice about. All I can really say is do your thing, don't ask about what she's doing....
Thanks rsg. I read the momma bear thing last night and that was so rough. I feel for all of you.
I appreciate the support and advice. I won't bring up OM outside of mc. I've been getting the "you are unstable" thing a lot for being sad and upset. It's always when I get a bd like ilybinilwy and discovery of the A. I never yelled, hit, broke anything, or stormed out. For the latter, I didn't sleep all night and read books about marriage. Pretty unstable, right? Hope you have a good weekend. Stay strong.
There must be many different ways that WW's are awakened from their fantasies, and much depends on individual situations and *personalities* of the WW's.
I actually talked a little about the WW wake up call on JRuss thread today. Couldn't cover everything, but did try to address some of it.
Thanks sandi. We always welcome your input.
Had the mc session today. Pushed for some sort of progress towards breaking contact with OM and got nothing. Ww talked about how incompatible we are, how we've been living a lie, how we've never been romantic, how we are at best really good friends, how OM helped her find herself. Rough stuff. Concluded that good communication is helpful no matter the outcome. Ww doesn't know what she wants. She was very defensive about everything I said. Came out of there speechless but we are amiable. She apologized for how rough the session was.
She went to an exercise class afterwards and I went home with S. We played a video game together after she got back and talked a little. Still hanging on.
Ww talked about how incompatible we are, how we've been living a lie, how we've never been romantic, how we are at best really good friends, how OM helped her find herself.
Wha...t? You had marriage counseling w/ my wife?
(This is nearly exactly what my WW said).
You have done coaching so I will let their advice be your way forward.
You want to be friendly but not friends. Know the difference and be clear about it. At this stage that could be voiced, but should be done without anger or resentment.It is just a fact. If either of ye decides to split, (yes IMO it is OK that W is aware she isn't only one that decides that) then you will coparent with her but you are not interested in being friends. You will need to live that through your actions and interactions.
W is not working on R so MC is just a tool to beat you with. IMO there is no use in continuing to go together at this stage.
Did you state any consequence about contact with OM? You cannot make her stop. That is controlling (or trying to control) HER. Continuing contact is not acceptable to you, so what do YOU DO?
By the way don't believe her BS. She may believe it now. That does not make it true. But it is your current reality. Accept it but don't dwell there. Your situation is not hopeless but it will be a long hard path if you choose to walk it.
Best wishes
Figuring out a plan.
Another piece that ww shared was that her ic and her two (younger) sisters all agree that OM has been good for her. I know that this may be interpretation or maybe bullying but I don't feel like hanging out with them any more. My birthday is soon and ww says they want to have a party for me. My feeling is that I'm all set and they can go have their own pro A party themselves and see how their marriages end up.
Sorry to hear how rough a time you are having. It [censored] that her sisters have taken her side. Forget them for now and focus on you. There's some great advise you've been given here. There's so many a similar trait between a ww and a wh, they both turn into spoilt stroppy teenagers- and the AP are just a toxic boil that has attached themselves to our crazy spouse.
A big thank you to RSG for the comment about how they must truly loose us, and see us happy while they are spinning. Really made sense to me and motivated me today. The last couple weeks I've barely seen my wh. He practically lives in his bedroom and will not eat with the family or see us. His circus. His monkeys.
Enjoy your child, every second. They are precious to us and give us reason to get out of bed every day
At this point, MC is not going to succeed in getting your W where you want her. She has, and will continue, to use the MC sessions to talk about her position. She is only attending MC so that she can announce to friends & family that she has done everything to save the M......even going for MC.
It is a waste of time and money.
Cherry,
I'm happy that you feel motivated. What is your plan for having your wh lose you?
I kind of understand the censoring of language but this would be such a natural place for people to use more hearty language.
I have and will be spending all day with my son.
At this point, MC is not going to succeed in getting your W where you want her. She has, and will continue, to use the MC sessions to talk about her position. She is only attending MC so that she can announce to friends & family that she has done everything to save the M......even going for MC.
It is a waste of time and money.
I'm feeling that. What's your specific suggestion?
I was trying to think what my potty mouth had written, so I went back and checked, must have been the word svcks!
Well so far, I guess I've had to start to detach. He wanted space and to be left alone, so I guess that's what's happened. I'm making sure that when we are both at home, I'm busy having fun with my S. I'm GALing more and seeing people. So far, I've just had to get on with things. I invited him to join me for a sonograph, I felt as father he should be there. But he hasn't got back to me if he will. I have no expectations here whatsoever, but if he decides against going, well there's a loss for him right there. How he will feel with me withdrawing myself away from him and getting on with my own thing I don't know. He doesn't join us for family meals anymore. So that's another loss on his part.
That's great that you've been spending time with your son. It's kind of selfish in a way, I've always thought a split with children is harder because they feel it too. But you know, I think they ease it in a way. My determination to carry on and be strong is mainly for my child. I know that wh isn't spending time with him or showing him much love right now. But I know for certain he knows he has his mama!! I'm a steady lighthouse for him too, I project calm and love towards him so he doesn't feel pain
Cherry,
I'm especially sorry about your situation with your wh. It is definitely his loss to miss out on such important things.
Not to make you feel bad or brag, but one thing my ww won't say is that I haven't been a devoted dad. Even she will(at times) say that I do more than my share. I have spent most weekends with him like a single father since I could take him to parks and play areas. I even take him to the gym with me and he's very good there. This inequity has led to many fights and my crabbiness. GAL'ing is something I can't really do. I don't ever go out and have few non-work friends. As you can see, these are a few aspects of my life that would only get better on the D side of things...
Took son to the gym, a park, and grocery shopping yesterday. We were planning to have dinner(just the two of us) but then we wanted to go to the mall to get her phone fixed(no comment). We did that and it was fine. Ww went to a movie with friends late last night. I relaxed. The whole dynamic is definitely messed up. I know some have it better and some have it worse. Just trying to appreciate the time seeing my son every day.
Struggling to stay on the db path. The continuing contact with OM really eats at me in so many ways. It's so sickening. I'm constantly tempted by thoughts of D for that reason. I know I can pull that lever at any time but it's harder to go back from it. I want to fight for my family but it's so tough when Ww won't even try to make that step.
I'm feeling that. What's your specific suggestion?
I would just tell her that you are not going to continue marriage counseling as long as she continues to contact the OM.
Then call the MC and cancel the appointments.
I'm feeling that. What's your specific suggestion?
I would just tell her that you are not going to continue marriage counseling as long as she continues to contact the OM.
Then call the MC and cancel the appointments.
Wow. Thanks sandi. Your suggestions are always strong (and scary) but I can't disagree with them. Any and all other thoughts are welcome.
My birthday is soon and ww says they want to have a party for me. My feeling is that I'm all set and they can go ...
I totally agree w/ you Jug. You don't need this.
They can all go ... [censored] themselves. As long as there is an affair, any supposedly kind gesture is [censored].
GAL'ing is something I can't really do. I don't ever go out and have few non-work friends.
Sorry if you already talked about this, but ... why do you have so little time for yourself? Does your WW work outside the home? What does WW do on the weekends?
I was in a somewhat similar situation, in that I really did a lot around the house and w/ my kids. So much so that it felt suffocating and mothering to my WW, and she also felt very guilty about it.
I think GAL-ing doesn't *necessarily* require big chunks of time. I believe you can do little things to reclaim your independent identity. Just takes some creativity.
Jug,
Just caught up with your thread... if you rewind my sich about 12 months I put myself almost at the same place as you - except I didn't have this forum then. Caught W in an EA, she denied it but wouldn't break contact with OM. Wanted Open marriage and kept pushing it, even loured me into discussing spicing up our sex life with a 3rd... we went to MC, and she detached as I continued to push.
After I overdid it for her birthday she declared the ILYBINILWY and then moved out - that's when I came across this forum... about 6 months beyond where you are at. So consider yourself lucky that you found it so early and can detach early and not make the same pushy mistakes I did. Pressure only pushes them away!
If I were to do it all over again I would have found concrete proof earlier on of the PA (I backed off but never stopped watching her) and then given her an ultimatum or detached then instead of continuing pretending nothing was going on while trying to fix the R. That only pushed her more towards him.
A few things.. don't push MC it doesn't do any good if she doesn't want to be there. Detach now while you still can.
WRT the A... I know you probably don't want to hear this but sounds like a PA. I didn't think mine was but had suspicions and finally proved it out later on. (The OM and spice up sex were the clear cut indicators)
For finances, we came go an agreement which we both signed, no L's involved which I know some on this forum would advise against but it's been 4 months and she's kept her end of things.
Oddly enough despite moving out she's still very engaged around the house, trying to take care of things.
As to when to throw in the towel, I have been tempted many times over the last year but it passes, prayer and surrounding myself with pro-marriage friends help. I also look to my D and ask myself what kind of role model do I want to be for her.
As to when to throw in the towel, I have been tempted many times over the last year but it passes, prayer and surrounding myself with pro-marriage friends help. I also look to my D and ask myself what kind of role model do I want to be for her.
Thank you for this. I needed to hear it just now. And again, and again, and again.
GAL'ing is something I can't really do. I don't ever go out and have few non-work friends.
Sorry if you already talked about this, but ... why do you have so little time for yourself? Does your WW work outside the home? What does WW do on the weekends?
I was in a somewhat similar situation, in that I really did a lot around the house and w/ my kids. So much so that it felt suffocating and mothering to my WW, and she also felt very guilty about it.
I think GAL-ing doesn't *necessarily* require big chunks of time. I believe you can do little things to reclaim your independent identity. Just takes some creativity.
Agreed. Ww is a sahm. Me doing as much as I do has been a point of contention with us. We haven't been able to work out a good balance of her getting a break and my getting a break. It has led to me bein passive aggressive about it.
Paclove-
Thanks for the comments. I think a PA is quite likely based on circumstances but doesn't change much at this stage as she just won't break contact.
I'm working on detaching while being friendly.
Thanks for the support with not throwing in the towel. I second gump's motion.
Me doing as much as I do has been a point of contention with us. We haven't been able to work out a good balance of her getting a break and my getting a break. It has led to me bein passive aggressive about it.
This was a big source of frustration for my SAHM W (now WW). I think men often underestimate how stressful it is to be w/ kids at home. It varies a lot by:
(a) personality of SAHM (or Dad); and
(b) personalities of the kids -- whether they are easy-going and get along w/ each other vs. high-need and contentious.
It can feel to the SAHM/D like you are completely worn out by the kids, and they don't feel as fulfilled by being w/ your kids, and they feel like they got nothing done. It's repetitive work w/o tangible rewards.
I'm not sure how much of this contributed to our marital problems, especially since, from early on, I tried really hard to do my fair share of work at home, and give my W breaks.
I travel for my work about 2-3 times a year, typically about 4-6 days per trip. In all the years we were married, I *never* took a trip by myself for pleasure. Yet I believe she resented my trips away, because it was perceived as a "break" from responsibilities at home. I supported/encouraged her to take pleasure trips for herself, and she did take several trips to visit friends. But it never gave her enough relief from the stress of being a SAHM. But, my W has serious anxiety and impulse control issues that make her home life feel very stressful.
ForGump/Jug,
Not sure if you are religious at all, but there's a great daily reflection out there that I've been reading daily. Unfortunately forum rules don't let me publish a link or name it, but go to your favorite online store and search for separation reflection and see what comes up.
BTW if you decide to confirm the PA, be very careful about how you do it... for me I think it backfired big time and pushed her further away as I shattered the trust between us. Yes I know it's already shattered with your W, but trust is a two way streak.
Correction search "surviving separation"
ForGump/Jug,
Not sure if you are religious at all, but there's a great daily reflection out there that I've been reading daily. Unfortunately forum rules don't let me publish a link or name it, but go to your favorite online store and search for separation reflection and see what comes up.
BTW if you decide to confirm the PA, be very careful about how you do it... for me I think it backfired big time and pushed her further away as I shattered the trust between us. Yes I know it's already shattered with your W, but trust is a two way streak.
Thanks paclove. I'll look into that.
I don't need to confirm the pa. I know it's all bad and I think I know plenty.
Me doing as much as I do has been a point of contention with us. We haven't been able to work out a good balance of her getting a break and my getting a break. It has led to me bein passive aggressive about it.
This was a big source of frustration for my SAHM W (now WW). I think men often underestimate how stressful it is to be w/ kids at home. It varies a lot by:
(a) personality of SAHM (or Dad); and
(b) personalities of the kids -- whether they are easy-going and get along w/ each other vs. high-need and contentious.
It can feel to the SAHM/D like you are completely worn out by the kids, and they don't feel as fulfilled by being w/ your kids, and they feel like they got nothing done. It's repetitive work w/o tangible rewards.
I'm not sure how much of this contributed to our marital problems, especially since, from early on, I tried really hard to do my fair share of work at home, and give my W breaks.
I travel for my work about 2-3 times a year, typically about 4-6 days per trip. In all the years we were married, I *never* took a trip by myself for pleasure. Yet I believe she resented my trips away, because it was perceived as a "break" from responsibilities at home. I supported/encouraged her to take pleasure trips for herself, and she did take several trips to visit friends. But it never gave her enough relief from the stress of being a SAHM. But, my W has serious anxiety and impulse control issues that make her home life feel very stressful.
What you said rings true. we have many other problems and this was a catalyst. Your wife sounds more and more like mine.
It's interesting reading about your W's with your kids, while my W is a working mom - she has never had a strong relationship with D and finds it contentious most of the time. So I think her leaving is part to escape that and part to escape me...
Meanwhile I've got a great relationship with D and I've used this time to make it all that much more stronger - it's a gift in a way from my W and there are no expectations on what she'll do vs. what I'll do. I know when I'm with D she's 100% my responsibility and I'm fortunate enough to have her 70% of the time.
It's interesting reading about your W's with your kids, while my W is a working mom - she has never had a strong relationship with D and finds it contentious most of the time. So I think her leaving is part to escape that and part to escape me...
Meanwhile I've got a great relationship with D and I've used this time to make it all that much more stronger - it's a gift in a way from my W and there are no expectations on what she'll do vs. what I'll do. I know when I'm with D she's 100% my responsibility and I'm fortunate enough to have her 70% of the time.
I have similar feelings and think my own adjustment won't be difficult, but I also know it would be tough on my son.
Had a coaching session today and they said that I sound too focused on WW and OM. This then affects my mood, actions, and aura. We all think we know that we are supposed to focus on ourselves but it's hard when you are facilitating emotional abuse. Gonna try though.
Any thoughts Sandi?
Unfortunately time is one of the best strategies here.... and avoiding snooping, every time I fall into that trap my mental/emotions reset.
As time passes you do tend to focus more on yourself and less on W and OM, look to your S - that's one of my best outlets, trying to figure out how to be the best Dad possible.
Ask yourself what can you possibly gain by focusing on W and OM other than hurt feelings and anger... knowing more will only hurt you more. There will come a time and place for the truth to come out if your W chooses to come back, and if she doesn't you can move on without having the increased pain that focusing on them will create.
I kind of had that realization a while back but its so easy to fall back into that trap as I find myself now researching MLC that I think she's in.
Thanks for the supportive words paclove!
I did everything wrong before DBing, I snooped, obsessed and became extremely insecure and demanded WH's every move. It did not cool the relationship between WH and OW but rather appeared to make her forbidden fruit and thus more desirable. So I started filling my schedule up to the eyeballs with GAL activities. I returned to my more confident self, with occasional slip of ruminating and obsessing. But after learning some mindfulness techniques and finding distractions I definitely became more confident and focused on myself. This had the effect of helping me emotionally and strangely enough, making me more desirable to WH.
Sara,
Thanks for sharing. I am so happy to see that sticking to the plan has worked for you. It's very encouraging. Can you speak to the mindfulness techniques that you like?
I've been working on REALLY not thinking about ww's behavior and OM and I think it helps. I thought I knew the concept but wasn't doing it. Thanks again Sara.
Ww's resentment of me seems to be growing. Her focus is on how I'm not looking out for her and sees it in all sorts of things that I don't do for her. Interesting considering what she did, right? The fact that she remains in contact with OM is of course irrelevant. On Friday it was about not doing enough around the house. Saturday was that I didn't get her up when she needed to. I won't even say what yesterday's thing was. I don't see how being friendly really helps here.
I have one more coaching session left. The message has been to be friendly and patient. I don't think the issue is patience when it appears that the boat is sinking...
Had cbt session today. Have been going a while to deal with anxiety, which only increases with the crap we are going through. The breathing exercises seem to help. My therapist suggested the calm app which I already had but never used. Interestingly my Ww had me get it to help manage our son's tantrums.
For what it's worth, a couple things that helped me stay detached from W's mood swings:
1) Get a mental image of yourself doing something awesome from one of your GAL activities, sans spouse. Preferably something new that you have never done with spouse. Use that mental image if you find yourself picturing anything negative.
I used to do the generic "picture a happy place" thing or envision a sea of unending blue waves, etc but that never really did much for me and the bad picture would come back. Picturing something concrete that reinforced I could have good times without spouse was a lot more effective for me at shutting down the negative imagination.
2) If you find yourself dreading the spouse leaving, or obsessing over how life might suck if WW doesn't come back fully, quickly remind yourself "it's her loss".
You're awesome, and getting better/stronger by the week while they're still stuck in a fantasy land ignoring their very real issues. The more you GAL and the more you detach from the rollercoaster, the easier it will get to really internalize that.