Sorry for the length of this post... just being thorough and hope some of you can find the time to read it and help.
My wife and I have known each other for 19 years, together for 8 (dated for 3, married for 5). We have two children, ages 2 and 4. Our marriage, like many, started experiencing difficulties with the arrival of our first child. When he was born, she immediately became child-centric and refused to allow anyone to help us take care our son. In fact, there many things she didn’t even want me to even do because she "didn’t want to miss a moment of his life". We were fortunate that our employers were extremely flexible so I was able to stay and work from home half the day and she was able to work from home the second half. It was great because we didn’t have to find childcare, but it took a toll on our marriage as we were extremely tired and stressed all the time. We stopped going on dates and we slowly stopped spending time alone together. I asked her to spend time with me, even just watching TV or reading a book together, but she was always too tired. She told me she wasn’t depressed, just tired. New to parenthood, I figured this was expected. I raised concerns about needing time to take care of ourselves and making our relationship a priority, but those concerns were rejected and were quickly followed by claims that she felt she was a single parent and I was’t helping out enough with the childcare. This argument became the one that we would routinely have and never resolve.
Fast forward a few years and with the birth of our second child, a daughter. It was clear that I could not work from home and be productive anymore. She was crushed, but we adjusted our schedules and we hired a nanny to help us. The cost of a nanny and other outside factors began to create some financial strain, but we were getting by. Still, we were growing distant and we would have the same argument. I was lonely and concerned about the growing distance between us and she felt I wasn’t helping out enough and she had to take care of three children. I know I’m far from the perfect father but I play with the kids every day, I’m often the disciplinarian, I change diapers, give them milk/food, give baths multiple times throughout the week, read to them each night, and help put them to bed each night. What more could I be doing? Her answer is always that I seem to do it begrudgingly out of obligation rather than wanting to do it!
Its worth noting that work was extremely stressful for me during this time and combined with the lack of intimacy and critically low feeling of connectedness/priority from my marriage, I fell into a deep depression. I would often escape into my cell phone and at times probably didn't engage my family enough. This only created more difficulties for us. Eventually, I sought help, was put on an anti-depressant, and began to slowly recover. I still wasn’t where I needed to be, but I felt that I was making slow progress. During the depression, however, I managed to put on a decent amount of weight and snoring became a problem. Eventually, since neither of us was sleeping well, I moved into the guest room so we could both get some sleep. That was probably 6-8 months ago.
In July, we celebrated our 5th anniversary. My wife had arranged for us to go out to dinner and it was great. We spoke of our future and our kids’ future. It was probably the third or fourth date we had without the kids since our son was born and I loved the brief amount of time I had the love of my life back. Unfortunately, things quickly returned to normal. At the end of July I attempted to flirt and suggest we taking things further but got rejected. We then had a fight I will forever regret. I explained to her that I felt lonely and continually rejected and had concerns about our marriage. She retaliated with the usual issues over childcare and feeling like a single parent. She told me I needed to man up, take care of myself, love myself, and be a better father. I accused her of no longer being in love with me. That was the breaking point, but I didn’t realize it at the time.
Things died down and the next two weeks seemed to be somewhat normal. We would text each other throughout the day just to say I love you and I thought everything was fine. Not great, but getting by. I figured this was typical of parents with kids our age. In fact, started a new job in August that significantly reduced my stress level and I had decided to followup on the things she mentioned in our fight. I was manning up. I started a new job that had much less stress. I was eating better and lifting weights to get back in shape. I made a commitment to myself that I would lose weight, stop snoring, return to my bed, and be more engaged with my family. If she was that mad at me, then I was going to prove my love to her by addressing every one of her issues as best I could. Then one day, I noticed she was upset so I asked her what was wrong and tried to console her by placing my hand on her shoulder. She recoiled and broke down. That was when she told me that she was no longer in love with me and had felt that way for a long time. She asked for time and space away from me and my heart broke.
I didn’t know what to do and made a lot of mistakes. I didn’t seek help at the time and it didn’t occur to me that I should do some research online to help us get through it. I made a lot of the common mistakes that probably pushed her further away. I told her I loved her, recalled fond memories, sent her romantic songs, told her about my dreams of the future, etc. In hindsight, I pursued her too much and pushed her even farther away instead of giving her the space she needed.
One day she told me that she decided she thought a new hobby would help. She was going to learn how to golf from a coworker and friend of ours. I was happy that she wanted to learn how to golf and told her so, but also said I was hoping that it was something we could learn together. She balked at that, saying that she still needed space, it would help her reduce a lot of the stress in her life, and it would be difficult for our friend to coach two people at the same time. I raised concerns that I felt our relationship was vulnerable and that she needed to be careful. I told her we also needed time to focus on strengthening our marriage just as much as she needed to do things for herself… even if it was just 30 minutes of talking each night. I knew the man she was learning golf with as he was a close family friend who was recently going through a divorce, but I considered him someone I could trust. He was like an uncle to our children. I’m sure you know where this is going.
Golf soon became the thing she was most excited about, and she would spend Saturday mornings and maybe one night a week at the driving range learning how to golf. During this time, I continued to raise concerns that I didn’t feel we were working on our marriage and that we needed to do something to work towards improving our relationship. She was undergoing a lot of stress from our strained marriage and some changes at work so I knew she was close to reaching a complete mental breakdown. Around labor day weekend, we decided that I would take the kids to my parents house and allow her to stay home and relax. I even cleaned the bathtub and lined it with candles before I left. When I called her over the weekend, she seemed so extremely happy, but it was clear she only wanted to speak with the kids and not me.
The next weekend, something didn’t seem right. I don’t remember exactly what tipped me off, but it was probably the way she was behaving. She was keeping her phone on her at all times, hiding its screen and using it more often than usual. She had previously had what I would consider a borderline emotional affair two years earlier so I had some concerns. I eventually managed to get access to her text messages and that was when the life I knew was over. I found an almost naked selfie that the OM sent her and numerous suggestive comments. They had been talking about how much they loved each other, how much they wanted to hold and kiss each other. This occurred over the weekend I took the kids and left her alone. I was heartbroken and furious. I called her downstairs and showed her what I found. I confronted her, yelled at her. She claimed they didn’t kiss or have sex, but I don’t know what to believe anymore. She claimed she didn’t mean for it to happen and that it was only an emotional affair. I still don’t know what to believe. I sent a text message to the other man asking him to explain the picture I found and told him to stay away from my wife a children. His response was only that he was drunk, he was sorry, and we would stop talking to my wife. I told my wife I didn’t want her talking to him outside of her professional obligations and that we would need to figure out what to do longterm because I was not comfortable with her talking to him or working near him. I told her I still loved her and wanted to make our marriage work but that I was devastated and needed time to think and calm down. I drank a lot that night and simply remember sobbing before I passed out in the guest room.
The week after D-Day, another coworker, OM’s brother, convinced my wife to seek marriage counseling (I could never get her to go). We’ve been to two sessions now but I’m not sure there is an improvement and I’m not sure the counselor is taking a proactive solution/action-oriented approach. My wife doesn’t seem remorseful or willing to work on our marriage. She definitely doesn’t want to end the affair. She is in love with the OM and since his family is very much an extension of our own it makes it even harder for us to cut all ties. The OM’s parents are like another set of grandparents to our children and we would always go to holiday parties at the OM's brother’s house. She continues to see him at work and I have no doubt they are spending time alone together when the opportunity presents itself. In fact, we recently had a fight because I discovered that she was still speaking with him and bought him a birthday gift. She then told me that they recently drove together, alone, to a work function. I lost it and lashed out at her, telling her that I didn’t think she was trying to reconcile. I made a lot of mistakes that night and probably destroyed any chance at reconciling. I hope I’m wrong. This isn’t easy and I’m learning the hard way after countless mistakes.
My wife seems to blame me for the state of our marriage. She told me that she feels nothing but anger and resentment towards me because she felt such a deep sense of loneliness during the last four years and felt that she was carrying the burdens of our entire family on her shoulders. She has said that she is sorry I wasn’t able to make her happy or provide her what she needed and she decided long before the OM that the choice she felt she had to make was whether she wanted to be with me or to be alone. She feels like trust is our biggest issue and feels hurt that I violated her privacy and violated her trust by searching through her text messages and call logs during both EAs. She has now changed all her passwords/passcodes and separated our cell phone plan so I can no longer see who she calls or text messages.
I’m reading the forums, just recently got the DR book and have read a few other books, but I’m so lost and feel so helpless. Some days I find a trigger and I can’t help but tear up. Other days I’m completely detached. I know the only thing I can change is myself. I feel like it’s getting easier, but I often feel angry at the OM, angry at my wife, and angry at myself for letting this happen. I want to fight for my marriage. I want to fight for my kids and I want to fight for myself and my wife. I love them all so much, but it feels like I’m fighting a battle I can’t win.
This is what I’m doing today:
- Marriage counseling once a week. We seem to be avoiding the EA and focusing on our marital issues prior to the EA, but it’s only been two sessions so I’m trying to keep an open mind.
- Established a boundary that she should only be talking to the OM at work, for work related reasons ( I don’t know how to enforce this)
- Established a boundary that my children are not to see the OM and he is not to be at our house
- Lifting weights and eating better. (I’ve lost ~30lbs since August 1st and haven’t been in better shape since college. Only 15lbs to go until I’m at my ideal weight!)
- Building a new wardrobe to match the new body (Difficult when money is tight, but it’s something I always held off doing because of my weight. Prior to the EA, my wife would have loved the opportunity to help me with this)
- Being more outgoing and confident (The new body and wardrobe really help here)
- Being more fun and energetic (Again, the new body and wardrobe)
- Engaging my kids more and spending more time with them
- Doing a few more things around the house than usual (I usually do a fair amount already)
- Avoiding communication with my wife unless she initiates and trying to make that interaction as positive as possible. (Exception is that I still initiate and say good morning and goodnight)
I’ve already decided to postpone any decisions or ultimatums at least until after the holidays (if not longer) because I want to make sure I’m in a good place physically, mentally, and emotionally before I make the kind of decisions that will affect my children’s entire lives. Patience is a virtue but I also don’t want to be a doormat that’s enabling the affair to continue while we’re married. I also want to move on as soon as possible if that’s the way it has to be.
I could really use some help in figuring out how to handle the ongoing affair and how to get my spouse to lower her defenses and commit to working on our marriage. Is time all it takes?
I don’t know what kind of 180s I can be doing or if I’m at the point where the LRT is the option. I don’t want to push her away but I also don’t want to reinforce the notion that she is doing everything to take care of the house and kids.
Any suggestions on what I can do would be helpful.
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
The first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH. Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
Hi Cole,
Sorry to hear about your situation. It does suck and it will be long and painful, whatever the outcome.
Even though not many have posted, the trickle will turn into a flood of great advice. Cadet's welcome is of great reading, as well as sandi's rules. If she does post here you will get some really great advice.
For my 2 cents worth, it is great what you are doing but remember that you have to ride out the pain. We are human, have feelings and when hurt we suffer. The advantage of being here is knowing we are not alone and when we do feel alone, there is always someone posting helpful advice to help us on our way. A sort of light to guide us.
The fact you are reading and hopefully understanding the books as well means you will not make the common mistakes. If you do, then at least you are aware and can recover quicker.
I think you are doing everything textbook style but if your W is still in honeymoon stage it will go unnoticed for the time being. At the moment only you are seeing the changes but keep on. You will reap the rewards in the long run.
As for the boundaries, I think you cannot enforce boundaries around other peoples actions. Only the ones that affect you. You cannot put a boundary around her contacting OM but you can on her contacting you. As for the children, it could also be implemented but if the ties are that close you will have an uphill battle to prevent this.
Your communication seems ok and I would still say greet her but leave it at that as you still need some cordiality with kids in the middle.
Don't pay attention to what she says. You are in her eyes the reason the both of you are in this situation and arguing wont change anything. What I do generally say is to listen objectively to what she says and think if any of it has any truth in it and act accordingly.
As for the detailed breakdown of your post some other better prepared members will support you. Just keep coming, share your thoughts, read the books and ask for help. it would help if you acted on the advice otherwise you will just go round in circles.
Nice talking to you.
Cole,
Honestly,
I would love to read about your sitch but man it looks so over whelming. Most people do not want to read a book when they come on here. I would suggest providing a summary and asking any questions you have. Hopefully that will get more people engaged in your sitch. Good luck man.
Is there any way for me to edit the post or could a moderator/admin delete the post so I can repost something a little more efficient and digestible?
Is there any way for me to edit the post or could a moderator/admin delete the post so I can repost something a little more efficient and digestible?
My suggestion is to stick with this thread and make another post with questions or concerns.
Just keep posting, I don't think you should delete or edit the previous post.
Hi cole,
The beginning of your story parallels mine. Me being over anxious after birth of my children (later learned 1/5 mothers suffer from this). My husbands weight gain and snoring. My perceived notion that husband neglected childcare responsibilities, then husband really did neglect me and children. Financial stresses, fatigue,some serious sleep deprivation, Husband Became workaholic.... To be honest I think this is a story that sadly affects many middle class Americans. (Very little support for moms, the inability to survive on 2 incomes..at least where I'm from, the increasing job demands and outrageous hours expected from the work force). It's sad and seems to require two like minded, seriously marriage committed people to survive.
In my case husband walked out, no infidelity on my part and I don't think on his either. This board has really been helping me to understand both the husband and wife perspectives. Just having a group of readers to vent to has helped prevent me from pursuing my husband and making some pretty hasty decisions. Especially, when you really can't hound your friends with this too much. Plus no other group of people will truly get what your going through and have a better understanding of the dynamics at play. Also most importantly, this group of people really values marriage and truly understands what's at stake and why we want to save it.
Julie
FTR I have now read your entire first post.
Your story is not much different than most of the stories posted here.
I will stick with my original advice that you leave it on the board and continue to post and follow the DB advice.
I think that LRT might be a good idea.
You can only work on yourself and make yourself into a person that only a fool would leave.
You can not cure your wife of her depression or make her love you.
You can only work on your portion of that.
Become a better DAD.
Go through your goals list and see which of those items you can control and which ones you can not control.
And like I said before - KEEP POSTING.
Cole,
Finally got through the post. I'm sorry you are going through this. I can tell you have a good head on hour shoulders. I like that you realize that you have a choice. So many times the LBS waits on the S to choose what happens next. I think it is smart that you are being patient with this.
My only suggestion is now that you know what she is capable of, what she is willing to do, don't overreact when you discover something new. Also, realize that things can get worse before getting better.
As far as waiting it out goes... my DB coach said it typically takes 9 months for the average affair to run its course.
Thanks for the feedback, everyone. I know if can't be difficult to slog through long posts.
The hardest thing about this is that living in the same house and having kids is that the lines are so gray sometimes. I did come to some conclusions about our situation and how we got here but that will have to wait until later because I have to run to a counseling session. Wish us luck!
Cole,
I, for one, don't mind the length of your post - I like having the info as everything I read helps me with my issue. So much of it almost parallels mine to a T. Like you, I made way to many of the common mistakes and pushed mine away. I would like to say that it gets easier or even better, and maybe it will. It has been over 6 months since mine dropped the D bomb on me, and it still hasn't gotten any easier. Currently, we are in a separated state - three weeks ago at a couples counseling session my W said it was done and she was filing. She has since changed her mind and now we are back to separation.
My wife seems to blame me for the state of our marriage. She told me that she feels nothing but anger and resentment towards me because she felt such a deep sense of loneliness during the last four years and felt that she was carrying the burdens of our entire family on her shoulders. She has said that she is sorry I wasn’t able to make her happy or provide her what she needed and she decided long before the OM that the choice she felt she had to make was whether she wanted to be with me or to be alone. She feels like trust is our biggest issue and feels hurt that I violated her privacy and violated her trust by searching through her text messages and call logs during both EAs. She has now changed all her passwords/passcodes and separated our cell phone plan so I can no longer see who she calls or text messages.
I copied this because it EXACTLY parallels my situation. I found evidence of mine having an EA and confronted her at 3 o'clock in the morning so she couldn't make up a story. Admitted the whole thing. Later in the day after she had the chance to really think about it, she went on the same "trust" tirade and was angry that I "violated" her privacy, to which I said trust is a two-way street. To this day, she thinks the EA wasn't anything and still brings up trust. As others have said on here, those who are having an A (EA or PA) will twist reality to suit themselves and no one others. Hell, my SIL (her sis) blamed me for snooping - well, that was until I told her to ask the W why I did it.
The thing is, every situation on here are very similar yet unique in their own ways. My W suffers from mental issues brought on by years of abuse starting at age 3 - all of which I found out AFTER the mention of D. Most will tell you to detach and GAL - I was hesitant to try it for a while but it works, it really does. So does journaling on here even if you feel it is dumb. As far as the A's go, that's very tough. I am learning to trust my W again, but it will be a while even though hers never went to PA.
Keep your head up! Our situation could almost mirror each other's so if you want to talk, look me up!
Cole, I hope you don't mind a second post, but I saw this (an excerpt of a post from Sandi2) and thought it would be good info for you. It's spot on.
I'm sure it must be very difficult for you, but please understand that a WAW is a different creature from the girl you M. The girl you M was in love with you. Your WAW no longer feels in love with you. Your bride wanted you to fill her up emotionally. The woman you have now feels emotionally dead to you. You used to be all she thought about and she wanted to please you. Somewhere, that faded away. She wanted you to compliment her when you thought she looked great. Now, it kind of irks her to hear it from you. She admired and respected you as a man, But she has neither for you now. She wanted to be with you sexually. But now she no longer desires you.
Even when PT is not the primary LL, people in love still want to be touched by their S. People who have a high drive may still have sex with their S, but the in-love feelings aren't there. People on the board have different opinions about having sex with a WAS. If there was always a healthy sex life in the M......who knows? But if she wasn't the one who usually initiated, IMHO I would have to say she isn't interested. "Most" WAW's feel completely "done" with the M. Once done.....she feels that's it. Can't go any further with it, and won't try.
She doesn't get to that point overnight. The WAW feels very unhappy, neglected, and lonely for a long time. The H may say it's not true, but it's her feelings and it's how she remembers it (right or wrong). She feels "empty" and then she begins to feel "dead" inside.
When she feels dead, she's in an extremely vulnerable position. B/c the first male who says just the right words to make her feels special, makes her feel pretty, or young & sexy.....she is in danger of stepping into an emotional realm that will thrive on her emotions. The more ego food she gets, the stronger the emotional fantasy.....and pretty soon, you've got a monster who has replaced the girl you M.
Yes, she will start looking really good! She'll work out, dress in younger looking clothes, change her hair, wear more make-up, and some start hitting the party life. (That's why I personally think she has another man's attention....or is looking.) I mean, you have to ask yourself why is she suddenly doing this (especially when she's so obviously disinterested in her H). And if there isn't a "why", then you have to ask yourself who. It is usually a who that sets off the ego spark in a woman (who has felt dead for a long time). Once she feels that little spark, she sees there's life after death, and she's not about to give it up.
Now, your nature will want to do all those things you should have done a long time ago. But you see, she doesn't want you to do it now. In fact, if you try to do it now, it will backfire and make her pull away quicker than ever. That brings me back to the touching. Some DB coaches have advised certain folks to do a little touch to see the response. Depending on that particular stitch. But it sure doesn't happen in all cases! B/c the WAW is no longer attracted to her H, and she no longer desires his attention, compliments, or touches. In fact, she goes to the extreme the other direction from her old self. It seems anything he does simply turns her off, and that's why anything that resembles romantic intentions will get you bad results. And each time a LBH tries that route, she has to show him that she's serious about ending the M, b/c she thinks you aren't accepting it.
I would love to read about your sitch but man it looks so over whelming. Most people do not want to read a book when they come on here. I would suggest providing a summary and asking any questions you have. Hopefully that will get more people engaged in your sitch.
Hummm, I guess that leaves me out! (jk, whyus)
First, read the links Cadet sent. They are tools to use right now.
She is not reconciling. Going to a MC is not a sign of reconciling. In fact, it is a waste of time and money. Until she gets to the place she feels complete remorse and is asking you what it will take to save the MC won't work.
Counseling session was good and bad. I'm never sure how much to open up there and I probably say more than I should. My wife seems happier, but still distant from me.
One thing I neglected to mention is that I recently found a gift she had purchased for the OM and lost my temper in front of the kids. I'm ashamed of what I did and how I handle myself. I bullied her and at one point told her that she didn't deserve my love. That came back to bite me during counseling. Now my wife admitted that her anger towards me has probably turned into apathy and she can't forget what I said. Apathy, IMO is probably much much worse. Still, she says she's willing to try and work on things but I don't see signs of remorse, just concerns about her privacy and lack of trust. I wish incould make he understand how I feel and that if I didn't think she was worthy of my love I would have left long ago and wouldn't be fighting so hard for our marriage.
Pissed off at myself right now because I felt we were moving in a positive direction and through my own fault, I may have destroyednanybchance to reconcile. Then I tell myself that it's still early and we still have time. We're still civil and we're still talking a little. As long as that's the case, there's hope, right?
I wish i could make he understand how I feel and that if I didn't think she was worthy of my love I would have left long ago and wouldn't be fighting so hard for our marriage.
YOU can't make her feel anything!
You can only control yourself - not her.
Sandi2, I think that's my biggest problem in all of this. She doesn't seem to show remorse. She says she is sorry for hurting me, but downplays the EA. If would be much easier if she was acting more committed to saving our marriage.
I understand that i can't control anything but myself, but that doesn't change the fact that I wish she would or could understand.
I wish she would or could understand.
The point is - the WAS doesn't understand,
they are in another world or aboard an alien spaceship.
So your wishing is similar to wishing you could communicate with a object that is flying in space.
Ultimately, I need accept that it doesn't matter if she's committed to working on our relationship and reconciling. What matters is that I am and I am taking every step I can to reduce conflict, and be a better man.
Right there with you, Cole. Keep your head up, brother. Six months after the bomb drop and it still hurts. It took me a long time to realize what has been told to you the last few posts. Was it too late for me? Only the good Lord knows. All I know is that she returned to separation after stating that she was going to go ahead and file. What that means, I don't know, but it seems like there may be a little light at the end of the tunnel.
We are here for you!
If she is in fact indifferent, can that be overcome? I'm trying to keep hope alive, but in my experience, hate is usually considered better than indifference and in most cases, indifference is ge ultimate relationship killer.
Of course I know I shouldn't believe anything that comes out of her mouth these days.
Of course I know I shouldn't believe anything that comes out of her mouth these days.
Exactly - it sounds like you are starting to get it.
I bullied her and at one point told her that she didn't deserve my love. That came back to bite me during counseling.
Well, that's not good. Has this mostly been how you would react in times past?
Now my wife admitted that her anger towards me has probably turned into apathy and she can't forget what I said.
Her feelings were affected long before you told her what you said. But, she's right. She won't forget what you said. No matter how many times you apologize, she won't forget.
It's done and you have to learn from it and move forward. If you've apologized, then let it drop, or she will hold it over your head.
Still, she says she's willing to try and work on things but I don't see signs of remorse, just concerns about her privacy and lack of trust.
Those are signs, alright, but not of remorse or willingness to work. The signs are about her privacy and lack of trust in
you. I want you to realize something. A WW will twist & turn every thing. If she has done any inappropriate behavior and got caught by her H, she'll will protest how he has broke her trust b/c he did not honor her privacy. It's pure BS. She is trying to take the focus off
her behavior and make you feel guilty for getting to the truth about her.
Do not fall for it. I think every woman who is wayward has made the same statement as your W, when her H found her out.
Two cards she will play the most are guilt and control. If you put your foot down, she's scream you are trying to control her. The second card is her making you feel guilty. She will use guilt and the control cards to manipulate
you.
She doesn't seem to show remorse. She says she is sorry for hurting me, but downplays the EA. If would be much easier if she was acting more committed to saving our marriage.
She is not showing remorse nor commitment b/c she feels neither one. Those are just words she's saying. Most times, the attitude is a dead give away. When words, attitude, behavior all match..... consistently.....then you can start to hope what she says is true.
Ultimately, I need accept that it doesn't matter if she's committed to working on our relationship and reconciling. What matters is that I am and I am taking every step I can to reduce conflict, and be a better man.
Becoming a better man is fine. Walking around on eggshells to avoid conflict isn't fine. Too many men get themselves into the puppet mode, trying to keep the peace.
If she is in fact indifferent, can that be overcome? I'm trying to keep hope alive, but in my experience, hate is usually considered better than indifference and in most cases, indifference is ge ultimate relationship killer.
Let me ask you a very important question.
Who are you wanting to keep hope alive for, in this MR? You can't do it for her, only for yourself, okay?
I've heard that about indifference and hate. It's difficult for me to imagine feeling hatred and it turning into love. To me, indifference is not feeling one way or the other. Hate/love can be passion (good or bad). Don't confuse resentment and anger with hate. I believe if a woman reaches the point of
hate for a man, he's sunk.
I would probably describe her feelings as being
dead. In fact, sometimes it's b/c she hasn't felt anything in so long, that when another man causes a little flutter in her....she realizes she's still alive and she wants more.
It doesn't mean she will never feel in love with you again. It just means she doesn't feel it right now, and no matter how you may avoid conflict, romance her, and cater to her....it won't put the loving feelings in her heart,
now. Becoming a man she respects and is attracted to, can turn things around.
Sandi, (Cole, sorry to hijack your thread) I really think my H is a WW. Every time I read a post, he seems much more like the women than the men. Plus add a big heap of depression on top of it.
Sandi,
In the past, I would never have taken things so far and I would never have bullied her the way I did that night. I was simply enraged and the anger I had from the EA,the lack of visible remorse, blaming me, and then shutting down when I asked questions made me boil over. I'm not proud of it and at one point I tried to walk away but couldn't. The only explanation is that I am still processing all of my emotions and exhibiting similar to PTSD which I've read isn't uncommon. Still no excuse and as you said, I learned the hard way
I understand, Cole. The night everything hit the fan at my house, I had never seen my H as angry as he was then. He didn't even look like himself (what little I was able to turn my eyes in his direction).
I just wanted to know if you had a problem in the past.
As for hope. The easy answer is that I still love her and want to spend my life with her and raise our children with her. In that respect, I keep hope alive for myself and my kids. I am well aware that there is only so much I can do and it will be a long and difficult journey. I am slowly getting to a place where I consistently feel I can be happy separated/divorced. It's probably the difference between need and want. I don't believe I need to be with her to be happy, but I would like to be with her and be happy.
Just keep POSTING and one other bit of advice from Wonka
that I totally agree with.
Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.
It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.
We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.
Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.
Something in your first post kind of stuck out to me:
It was great because we didn’t have to find childcare, but it took a toll on our marriage as we were extremely tired and stressed all the time. We stopped going on dates and we slowly stopped spending time alone together.
Fast forward a few years and with the birth of our second child, a daughter. It was clear that I could not work from home and be productive anymore. She was crushed, but we adjusted our schedules and we hired a nanny to help us. The cost of a nanny and other outside factors began to create some financial strain, but we were getting by. Still, we were growing distant and we would have the same argument. I was lonely and concerned about the growing distance between us
Even though you have known each other for a long time, you had your first child very early into the marriage. Let me ask you this - did you two live together before you were married? As in my same situation, it seems that you really didn't get the chance really experience growing as a married couple before your first child. And children change everything completely.
It would also be a safe bet to ask if you stopped doing the things you did when dating and early in the marriage before children came along, no? Same thing happened to me which led to the position I am in now.
Birth affects women differently, and she seems very/overly protective. Which, in her eyes, may have looked like you weren't doing as much as she was - adding even more fuel to the fire.
And then there was the stress of your job that changed your behavior, too. All of these things tie together and created the atmosphere were she felt unloved/wanted/cherished/valued/needed/etc. See where I am going? I speak from experience!
If she is in fact indifferent, can that be overcome? I'm trying to keep hope alive, but in my experience, hate is usually considered better than indifference and in most cases, indifference is ge ultimate relationship killer.
Of course I know I shouldn't believe anything that comes out of her mouth these days.
That is a very good question and one I am facing now. I want to believe that I am seeing a little light at the end of tunnel, but with all the earthquakes, that tunnel shifts daily. Hang in there, is all I can say. I hurt every day and have panic attacks and that sick stomach feeling, but am just putting one foot in front of the other. When your W is ready (not to blow smoke, but she also may be at the point of no return), start slowly. Maybe try to start doing the things again that you used to do and becoming the person she fell in love with in the first place. That is all you can do. I am struggling to do this myself - at times I am successful and she notices and reacts warmly and then there are times when the ugly snake rears it head...
What it all boils down to is working on yourself and becoming the best possible man that you can - FOR YOURSELF. Do that, and there will be a trickle-down effect. But what you have to realize - as I had to - is that she will have to come to that decision on her own. Just become the best you can be. Get a personal counselor. Become the man she fell in love with. Become the best father you possibly can. That's all you can do, brother. Hang in there! I am in the same boat!
I could really use some help in figuring out how to handle the ongoing affair and how to get my spouse to lower her defenses and commit to working on our marriage. Is time all it takes?
I copied from one of Georgia Bulldog's post in a different thread. It may or may not apply in your situation, but the advice is solid. I did something very similar when I confronted my wife about her EA (I did mine at 3 a.m. so she didn't see it coming and wasn't able to prepare herself). Trust will take time...
What does everyone say?
Have your "last date" with her and then demand she decide. Give her an ultimatum (realizing that her indecisiveness has no end to it until you give it an end). The ultimatum shouldn't be whether she finalizes the divorce or not because she could just prolong that and maintain this indecisive stance for months longer. Instead it should be YOUR boundary and what it will take for her to have the privilege and right to remain in YOUR life.
I would advise you to put this in writing in an envelope you hand her after your GREAT date.
Use the language I've discussed several times in your thread.
Something like:
As you are aware, I still remain in love with you enough to attempt recovery and reconciliation of our marriage in spite of your illicit and ongoing affair with Dr. Poopyhead (yes I am fully aware you are still spending time with him and talking to him as is his wife).. The mixed signals (affection and compliments) followed by indecision are slowing draining all the remaining love you have for her and you are just about done. Therefore, she has to decide now if she intends to remain in your life at all.
Starting today - right now she should be advised to not to see, speak or have any contact you whatsoever until she decides to commit to:
1. No Contact with OM (which should include a plan whereby she leaves that workplace all together - not just another floor)
2. She commits to a marital recovery plan
Then you must follow through. She must become aware of what life will look like post divorce with you GONE. She must miss you. She must fear and feel losing you forever.
I get the idea that I should be focusing on myself and becoming the best man and the best father that I can be. I feel I've made significant improvements there, even before discovering the affair. The big fight we had shortly after our anniversary caused her to break through the filters and barriers she would usually put up to hide how she was feeling and I was finally able to learn specific and actionable things she was unhappy about. The timing (New job) then helped me to break out of my depression and find the motivation to change.
What I struggle with now is becoming the man she fell in love with or the kind of man she could fall in love with again. Maybe this situation has destroyed my faith in myself, but I question how or why she even fell in love with me. It's not that I'm down on myself, I actually feel better about myself as a person than I have in years. I just don't know what made her fall in love with me other than the fact that we were amazing friends who kept in touch for years over long distances. I was always there to listen and support her. I helped her through some rough times. I could make her laugh and I was always able to make her feel beautiful, loved, sexy, and desired. In many ways, I think I helped her explore a lot about who she was in a safe and nonjudgmental way and that is what drew her to me.
Maybe all I can do is just be a better man and father and stop worrying about whether she can or will fall in love again (Likely). I just don't know how to be a man she can fall in love with or be able to show that man to her when so much of our relationship was built on deep and intimate conversations. When we were dating, it was about going to restaurants, watching movies or TV together, and just going out, exploring the town and spending time together. We spoke incessantly about everything.
I don't know how to show her that man has returned (or was always there) when I'm detaching and avoiding unnecessary communication. I don't know how to demonstrate these qualities when she is still in a fog, communicating with and feeling "in love" with the OM. If the OM is "her best friend and her support" and is already doing everything that I need to do to help her fall in love with me, how do I differentiate myself from him and allow her to realize that she already has everything she wants and needs in me?
I know it's not a competition with the OM and the continued relationship presents a number of challenges. I also know that I cannot make her end the relationship with the OM, I can only request it.
Is it simply a matter of doing what you can to be the man she fell in love with or could fall in love with again and then remaining patient? Is it simply to become that man and wait for the affair to end naturally? Is that all I can do without giving her an ultimatum?
As to the suggestion of a letter, I'm not sure I'm ready to write one that includes an ultimatum and I'm not sure the timing is right. The presence of children also makes moving out and having no contact difficult if not impossible and even if I give her that ultimatum, I cannot guarantee that she will follow through and I have no way of knowing.
Rereading what I just posted, I think we're in agreement, Evil_E.
All I can do is be a better man and father. The rest is simply being patient and letting the chips fall.
All I can do is be a better man and father. The rest is simply being patient and letting the chips fall.
There you go. That's all any of us can do in this situation - and if you find an easier way, then let me know. For me, every day is a struggle, to put it mildly. But I do the best I can - I am the primary caregiver because of her work,and I can't let my kids see me down. I do the best I can...
What I struggle with now is becoming the man she fell in love with or the kind of man she could fall in love with again. Maybe this situation has destroyed my faith in myself, but I question how or why she even fell in love with me. It's not that I'm down on myself, I actually feel better about myself as a person than I have in years. I just don't know what made her fall in love with me other than the fact that we were amazing friends who kept in touch for years over long distances. I was always there to listen and support her. I helped her through some rough times. I could make her laugh and I was always able to make her feel beautiful, loved, sexy, and desired. In many ways, I think I helped her explore a lot about who she was in a safe and nonjudgmental way and that is what drew her to me.
That could be written about me, almost word for word. We dated for just over a year before getting married. Our first child came about a year after we were married. I can almost point to that as the catalyst - now don't think I put any blame on my children for this, because I don't. It's just that we barely spent any time as a married couple together with it just being us. That is a whole different ball game than dating and all. Totally different. But, I wouldn't go back and wish we would have waited because our first may not have been born.
Maybe all I can do is just be a better man and father and stop worrying about whether she can or will fall in love again (Likely).
Unfortunately, thats all we can do. The only thing I can offer is get your self esteem back on track and the rest will fall into place eventually. As far as the OM is concerned, I am not sure about the ultimatum, either - people react differently. Maybe you should tell her that you won't be in an open marriage and she needs to decide between him and the family. Others will know more, though. All you can do is be there. It may not be in the way you want it, but if you truly love her and want her back, just be there. Set those boundaries, though. She may need tough love or she may not - her psyche may or may not be able to handle it.
I just don't know how to be a man she can fall in love with or be able to show that man to her when so much of our relationship was built on deep and intimate conversations. When we were dating, it was about going to restaurants, watching movies or TV together, and just going out, exploring the town and spending time together. We spoke incessantly about everything.
That will take time. Believe me, I learned the hard way. That paragraph is exactly like my experience. I am just working on me and giving her the space she needs. That's all I can add. Become the strong willed man she loved. She will notice.
Evil_E - I know this goes without saying, but I don't like leaving things unsaid. Thank you for your posts and your support in this.
The same goes for everyone who posts here. Thank you. I can't really discuss this with any of my friends and family so being able to talk and vent and bounce ideas around has been extremely helpful, especially from those who have been there before me.
This is something I never expected to go through and yet in some weird and twisted way, I feel it will ultimately make me a better person. Life is a cruel teacher sometimes, but I guess all we can do is learn and move forward. Thanks again.
BTW, would a mod please correct the spelling of this thread's title? It's been driving me nuts that I can't easily go and fix it to My turn to join
Feeling a little too detached today... Like I've forgotten why I want to save our marriage. I know I still love her and I want to be with her and our kids but I also know I'll be fine on my own. It makes me question why I'm fighting if I'll be okay on my own. It makes me question why I'm fighting for someone who hid her feelings from me, blatantly denied problems in our relationship, and then betrayed me while I was warning her about crossing the line.
Is this acceptance or just another emotional dip?
I think we all have those feelings and it is seemingly normal. I have days where I question the same thing, especially when she does her famous flip-flop. For example, in our session last week - and on the way home - she really gave me hope, and if you read my last post or so in my own thread you can see a flip between her behavior last week and now. Drives me crazy! As others have said, once they start thinking/feeling they want out, it takes major changes on our part to get them to see clearly...and even then that takes changes that stick and a long time for it to even work.
For me, that's a road I want to travel because I really want this marriage to work. At the same time, I am coming to the same realization as you - as much as I don't want to even think about that. But I will fight for my marriage as long as I live. Keep posting! And feel free to hop on mine - I can use all the help and support I can get, because it's tougher than tough.
Maybe I just have doubts that this is will work. She/we have gotten so close to OMs family over the years. Like I said earlier, OM's parents are like another set of grandparents to our children and I know she was talking to his mom during the beginning of this. I don't know what those discussions entail, but it illustrates the bond she has with OM and his family. Prior to the EA (assuming I believe it was only an EA), she referred to the OM as her brother and OM's brother as a father figure.
I don't think she will ever be able to let go of OM's family even if she decided to try and achieve no contact with OM. It feels like the inevitable outcome is that our marriage will end and she will run off to be with OM and his family. Am I being selfish to deny that? If I love her shouldn't I just let her do what she believes will make her happy? I want to fight but it feels so hopeless and so fruitless sometimes.
Still I move forward. Detaching myself, fighting for us the only way I know how and embracing patience and time in the hope that it will heal these wounds and bring some positive resolution.
Feeling a little too detached today... Like I've forgotten why I want to save our marriage. I know I still love her and I want to be with her and our kids but I also know I'll be fine on my own. It makes me question why I'm fighting if I'll be okay on my own. It makes me question why I'm fighting for someone who hid her feelings from me, blatantly denied problems in our relationship, and then betrayed me while I was warning her about crossing the line.
Is this acceptance or just another emotional dip?
It's normal. I find it odd when I read something similar from men who say they are afraid they will get too detached. If they are too "detached" (or what they think is detaching), they won't care. If they don't care, they won't hurt. So I guess I fail to understand it.
Maybe I just have doubts that this is will work.
Sure, a lot of newcomers doubt it will do what they
want. And, there are no guarantees. If there is another way that you think is better, go for it.
I don't think she will ever be able to let go of OM's family even if she decided to try and achieve no contact with OM. It feels like the inevitable outcome is that our marriage will end and she will run off to be with OM and his family. Am I being selfish to deny that? If I love her shouldn't I just let her do what she believes will make her happy? I want to fight but it feels so hopeless and so fruitless sometimes.
Sure, Cole. If you
really love her, then you should let her have an A and hang out with OM's family as long as she wants....while you sit back and say nothing. Yeah, that's really selfish of you to not just keep your mouth shut and tolerate this behavior.
(Why do
guys LBS's ask these silly questions?)
Sure, Cole. If you really love her, then you should let her have an A and hang out with OM's family as long as she wants....while you sit back and say nothing. Yeah, that's really selfish of you to not just keep your mouth shut and tolerate this behavior. smirk (Why do guys LBS's ask these silly questions?)
I know maybe the way I phrased it sounds bad and maybe the idea itself is bad, but it's something that popped into my head and I thought it worth throwing out there to explore.
I think what I was getting at is that it's not my decision whether she feels the OM and/or his family are more important to her than me and our children. It's not something I can't control. It's the idea that we must all make decisions for ourselves and to expect to control someone else's decisions or ask that they be made for your interests rather than their own seems selfish and codependent.
Only my wife can tell me what she wants and what makes her happy or she believes will make her happy. I may want her to be with me and I may tell her so and explain what I perceive to be the consequences of her decisions but it's all up to her and what she thinks she wants. Does that make sense?
It doesn't mean I stop fighting. It doesn't mean that I let her walk all over me. It means I make sure she knows what I want, what I believe is in her best interest and our kids best interests and the potential consequences of each and let her make that decision. I wouldn't want to be with someone who felt trapped in a relationship that didn't make them happy nor would I want to do that to somebody.
Was looking back through my old text messages trying to better understand how we got here. Sadly, I wish I had known of this site months ago. In mid August, my wife had asked me for some time and space. Like most LBHs, I didn't understand the situation and I underestimated it (mixed signals about what she wanted didn't help). I struggled and failed to give her the space she asked for and In some cases, I probably made it worse. 2-3 weeks later, it was clear that she was in the EA, but it's difficult to know exactly when it began and whether it was a contributing factor to the fight we had in July. I wouldn't be surprised if it was at some unconscious level.
I don't accept blame for the EA, but I'd like to think we would be in a much different place had I been able to be stronger and given her the distance she asked for. Gotta love hindsight. I wish I could tell her I'm sorry and that I understand my role in this, but now is not the time and besides, there's no benefit to dwelling on the past. We can only look forward.
Sure, Cole. If you really love her, then you should let her have an A and hang out with OM's family as long as she wants....while you sit back and say nothing. Yeah, that's really selfish of you to not just keep your mouth shut and tolerate this behavior. smirk (Why do guys LBS's ask these silly questions?)
Cole, I am going to have to go with Sandi on this one. I have been thinking about your situation a good bit. Maybe its time to put your foot down and make her choose - him or her family. As I told another poster, if you really want to see if you and your W have a chance, then it has to be done. Tell her you won't play second fiddle (or share) to anyone - period. If you don't stand up in regards to the OM, then most likely she will view you as a doormat and will continue.
I struggled and failed to give her the space she asked for and In some cases, I probably made it worse. 2-3 weeks later, it was clear that she was in the EA, but it's difficult to know exactly when it began and whether it was a contributing factor to the fight we had in July. I wouldn't be surprised if it was at some unconscious level.
It may have been a contributing factor, but most likely those seeds had been planted before that. More likely, it seems to me, that the stuff I wrote in an earlier post in your thread (quoted below) was the defining factor for the EA, not the fight. As has been said many times on here before, when a W doesn't feel loved/cherished/valued/wanted/needed/desired/etc., then she wonders - and when an OM tells her what she wants (no, needs) to hear then that creates the spark. Unfortunately, that most likely isn't what you want to hear, but it can be overcome.
Even though you have known each other for a long time, you had your first child very early into the marriage. Let me ask you this - did you two live together before you were married? As in my same situation, it seems that you really didn't get the chance really experience growing as a married couple before your first child. And children change everything completely.
It would also be a safe bet to ask if you stopped doing the things you did when dating and early in the marriage before children came along, no? Same thing happened to me which led to the position I am in now.
Birth affects women differently, and she seems very/overly protective. Which, in her eyes, may have looked like you weren't doing as much as she was - adding even more fuel to the fire.
And then there was the stress of your job that changed your behavior, too. All of these things tie together and created the atmosphere were she felt unloved/wanted/cherished/valued/needed/etc. See where I am going? I speak from experience!
That, over time, is most likely what made the EA possible. All of it can be overcome, but first you must put your foot down.
You should not have given her time and space while you carried on the way you had in the marriage IMHO. Truthfully, all that would've done is enable her A. So looking back, from your perspective is wrong. NOW if you pulled back, stated firmly that her A was inappropriate, kicked her out of the MBR and went on with your life, doing everything you could to be a more attractive man, that may have been good, but that ship has sailed.
WE aren't looking anywhere together right now. YOU can only look forward and figure out what you want to and need to do to be a better man. Part of that will be at times, setting boundaries, detaching etc. There's gotta be something you want to do that you haven't. Start a workout? Quit a bad habit? Become more self sufficient?
Also, with apologizing, if she starts bringing up your past behaviors, when you validate, you can apologize. Maybe you should? Nothing dramatic, but yeah, you're right-I can see that I was wrong. But don't confuse apples and oranges. Validating her feelings is not justifying her behavior. You don't have to tolerate that.
I agree that the conditions that led to the EA were long before our fight, but I still don't know what I could have done differently. We had our ups and downs, but I generally thought we were doing okay on average. I thought it was simply the stress of young kids and life that created a temporary lull. I wrongly assumed it was just a matter of waiting until the kids were a little older before we could get back to having time for ourselves again.
Prior to our marriage, we spent a lot of time together. We had separate apartments
for the first 2-2.5 years of our relationship, but in reality, I was probably over at her place more than I ever spent time in mine. You might even say that we were living together because we shared every meal we could and we shared a bed more often than not. As far as things changing after marriage, nothing changed. We continued to do the same things and behave the same way until after our first kid was born. As soon as that happened, we stopped going out or spending time alone together. Any time we did have after he was sleeping was spent doing housework or catching up on sleep ourselves. I understand the changes in priority and life that happens when you become a parent, but the fact remains that when our children came, our relationship was no longer a priority.
Certainly, I was depressed and at times maybe not fully engaged but even during those times I feel I did my share to help with the kids and share the burden of family life. I tried to maintain our relationship as best as I could. I would leave romantic notes, tell her how beautiful she was, how much I loved her and how much I appreciated what she did for me and our family. We would send random messages throughout the day. I would come up behind her and hug her or kiss her and let her know how much I loved her. It always seemed welcomed and she would often reciprocate with her own notes and shows of affection.
The real difference is that I would routinely ask her out for a date or to just spend time with me after the kids were in bed. I made it clear I just wanted to talk and hang out, nothing more. I was always rebuked with the excuse that she didn't trust anyone to watch the kids or was tired. When I asked if she was down, feeling depressed, or mad at me she would simply say that no, she was just too exhausted and needed sleep. I even did my best to let her sleep in on the weekends thinking it would help. Eventually this turned into our cyclical argument where I told her I was feeling lonely and concerned about our marriage and she felt I wasn't helping enough with the kids. When I asked her what I could do to help her, she said she shouldn't need to ask me and shouldn't need tell me I should just know.
This was the foundation for the last big fight we had in July and probably the foundation for the EA.
You should not have given her time and space while you carried on the way you had in the marriage IMHO. Truthfully, all that would've done is enable her A. So looking back, from your perspective is wrong. NOW if you pulled back, stated firmly that her A was inappropriate, kicked her out of the MBR and went on with your life, doing everything you could to be a more attractive man, that may have been good, but that ship has sailed.
OhGreat -
I'm not sure you understand the timeline. We had a rather large fight in July that was before the EA was discovered, and if I'm to believe my wife, before the EA even began. After the fight at the end of July, I took her challenge to heart and began working to address the issues she called me out on. I began working out and losing weight and I began engaging the kids more and being a better father and a better man. That of course can't happen overnight, but I started immediately and she even commented that she was proud of how much I was working to get back in shape. I also started a new job so my stress level was greatly reduced so I was no longer depressed and was in a much better mood. To be clear, I was "manning up" and working to be a better man long before she specifically told me that she was no longer in love with me and long before I discovered the EA.
Things seemed to be going back to normal. We continued to text "I love yous" throughout the day and even went out with some friends (and our kids) in the middle of August. We still had some underlying intimacy issues, but they seemed to be improving until one day I noticed that she seemed visibly upset. When I went to console her and find out what was wrong, that's when she told me that she was no longer in love with me and needed time and space. In her own words, I was a source of expectations, guilt and stress.
I was crushed and did my best to give her that time and space, but that's where I failed. That's where I didn't understand the severity of the situation or how to give her that space. I sent her links to articles about rekindling lost love, I reminded her of our treasured memories, I suggested romantic evening away from the kids, etc. All of the classic mistakes that we think will pull them closer but actually suffocate them and push them away.
The timing of it also meant that when she encountered problems at work, I couldn't be there for her. She couldn't see me as a source of comfort because I was just another source of guilt and stress. In her words, her home was a source of stress and work was a source of stress so she had nowhere else to turn to for support. Those two things are what I believe ultimately pushed her over the edge toward the OM and EA. The OM was a friend who could be there for her. He could listen and help her think through her marriage and career problems during a time when she was unable/unwilling to come to me.
The mistake I made was underestimating the closeness of their relationship and the vulnerability of ours. When she mentioned playing golf with the OM, I expressed concerns about it but ultimately decided that her mental health was more important. I reasoned that if it allowed her to get out of the house and reduce stress, then that would help her and help us. I even mentioned my concerns about a potential EA to her at least twice and suggested that we learn the sport together. I trusted both her and the OM to be friends of our marriage and I was wrong to do so. I should have put my foot down then.
To be clear, once I found out about the EA, I made it very clear that she was to stop all contact with the OM and that the OM was to have no contact with her or our children. I was very clear that I loved her, wanted to fight for our marriage and reconcile. I was also still heavily working to improve myself, for myself and I haven't stopped since the end of July.
Feeling pretty crushed right now. I decided to go back further in our chat/text history to try and better understand things. In hindsight, the past year has been extremely difficult and there were a lot more arguments and challenges than I remember. In fact, there were times when she specifically called me out on things that I needed to improve on and yet somehow they went ignored.
There was one long message back in April where she spelled out everything. How my mood would swing, how I was putting on weight, how she was concerned for me and my health and how she didn't know how to help me. She spoke of how she missed me and us and felt lonely and wanted us to cheer each other on rather than argue and take each other down. She ended by saying that she hoped her love was strong enough to get us through. How the hell did I forget that?! Why the hell wasn't that the time when I got myself together?!
I feel like such a failure. I can blame depression, but that only goes so far. Tonight, I really feel like she's justified in wanting to leave me. It certainly doesn't excuse the EA but I can look back and better understand my role in this and how I let her down and let our marriage down. All I want to do right now is let her know that I understand and that I am so sorry for everything I put her through. I'm so broken right now. I lost the love of my life because I was too blind to see what was happening this entire year.
Now I don't know what to do. I don't know if I have the heart to keep fighting. I'm sure this is a temporary moment of weakness, but I simply cannot fathom how I could be so dense, and such a horrible partner as to ignore all of her cries to help me and help us.
I want to write a letter to apologize and let her know that I forgive her. I'm even considering letter her go. Maybe she does deserve better. I know I am a better person now, but can I guarantee I'll be the same way five years from now?
Cole -
It's easy to look back and see where we messed up and see how to do things better. There's no point in beating yourself up over it. You did what you thought was best at the time. You didn't have the tools to be a successful partner then. If you tried to build a house without using nails and it fell apart would you blame yourself and your skill? No, you blame it on a lack of know how and a lack of tools. Now you know, now you have the tools to do better next time.
As for the letter, I wouldn't do it. I don't think it will accomplish what you hope. You can write it to get the words out, but I don't think you should give it to her.
Marriage is for better_____fill in the blank. Yeas you had a part in this. But if you were depressed and got fat those are no reasons for an EA and divorce.
Believe none of what they say and half of what you see.
Write no letter at this time.
Instead look good look happy go out and have a blasts. Hard to do at 1st but worth it.
My friend you need to put yourself back together. Step 1
It's going to be difficult not to bring this up in our counseling session, but I'll do my best to give her a letter
I meant I'll do my best to NOT giver her a letter. My typing and grammar have been horrible lately. I blame autocorrect.
If you apologized already no need to do it again. She knows how you feel. She Knows you dont want a divorce. What she doesnt know is if she would return to the M would any of your changes continue. What she also knows is that she wants a man who is in control of himself (not controlling). Strong and confident. Is that you right now?
Dont get me wrong I know very well how you feel. Lost scared hurt..That is why we are told to GAL. It is very important. Post often it really helped me in getting through this.
And the letter. Go ahead and write it. But never give it to her. It is for you
My wife is acting suspicious today. A lot of typing on her phone. She had asked to go to the driving range by herself. It's hard not to think she planning to meet up with the OM. Not sure how to handle this. Logically, I feel Like I should just ignore it. Emotionally, I want to confront her and call her out on it. Maybe it is time to issue some kind of ultimatum even though I'm sure that would simply expedite her running off with the OM
Ultimatums probably won't work. Did she actually ask you IF she could go to the driving range?
She did ask but it was more of a "Weather looks great today. I'd really love to go to the driving range while I still can. Do you mind if I go?".
My response was that she knew where I stood and I wasn't going to make decisions for her. Perhaps that was the wrong response, but it felt right at the time. Especially if im trying to use the LRT. I have no interest in controlling her. She needs to make her own decisions and demonstrate her commitment or non commitment to our marriage. Of course the longer this plays out, the more it seems her mind is made up to leave us for the OM.
We have one more joint counseling session before our therapist sees us one-on-one. I'm curious to see what happens from that and what our therapist has to say about the OM and her seemingly continued contact. While our therapist did say the NC was recommended, she generally appears to ignore or avoid the EA and has said nothing about my wife locking down her privacy rather than open it up. In fact, to some extent, she almost seemed to support the move or at least validate it. Maybe it's just an attempt to get my wife comfortable or maybe I'm misinterpreting things. I'll find out more over the next two weeks of counseling is going to be worth anything.
Also, in regards to GAL, how do I do that without impacting our kids, or appearing that I'm less involved with them? One of her complaints was that I didn't help with the kids and if I leave the kids with her to do things on the weekend, doesn't that reinforce her perception of me? I've been scheduling things to do with the kids on the weekend, but she always manages to come along and it becomes a family thing. The kids always want the two of us and she's been unwilling to say no to our oldest.
Wife was quite chipper and talkative today. Mostly about the kids and then about one of the new activities she's pursuing outside of golf. I tried to keep it lighthearted, minimize the conversation, and not engage too much, but it's a dance. If I didn't know better, it was almost like things were back to normal, but I know that at least for this morning, I probably just moved from enemy to roommate while she continues to eat cake.
Time to reframe things to see if that helps adjust my thinking and approach. These are the questions I currently have. Hopefully, some of you can chime in and let me know what you think.
- We seem to be coasting right now. She hasn’t specifically mentioned the word divorce or separation, only distance and space. She is, of course, not wearing her rings. She said that she isn’t in love with me and has a lot of anger and resentment toward me. She said that from the beginning, she wasn’t happy and felt she needed to make a decision whether she could fall back in love and be happy with me or whether she needed to leave and be alone to find that happiness. She claims the EA was not intended and it’s a choice of me or being alone, not me and the OM (Yeah, right /sarcasm). We’re in MC and she says she is trying to reconcile, but hasn’t demonstrated what I would call true remorse. Should I ask her the question "What do you believe needs to change for you to stay?” I haven't done that yet because it seems little needy or pursuit driven but it also makes it difficult to truly understand what kinds of things (180s, etc.) I should be working on.
- When should I begin taking a tougher approach? By tougher approach, I mean taking steps to cause her to experience the losses and pain associated with her decisions, per Sandi’s Wayward Wife threads. For example, asking her to leave the MBR, asking her leave the house and leave the kids with me, stop doing chores/doing her laundry, stop attending family activities, holiday gatherings, sending a no contact letter to OM, etc. It seems an ultimatum or tough approach right now is ill-advised, but I know I may simply be fearful and so want an outside perspective as much as possible.
- We are currently living in the same house, but sleeping in separate rooms. I’m in the guest room because I moved out 6-8 months ago due to snoring brought on by weight gain. We were on relatively good terms then and often spoke of how frustrating it was to be away from each other at night. Is it worth asserting myself and move into the master bedroom? Should I move in and kick her out? If she refuses, do I simply get in the bed with her until she decides to leave? If she claims to be working to reconcile and also claims to have NC with OM, do I allow her to stay in the same bed? I only mention this specifically because it was pointed out as an example of demonstrating confidence in one of Sandi’s threads about wayward wives (which I assume mine is due to the EA).
- My wife claims I violated her trust and privacy because I found messages on her phone implicating her EA and later found a present for OM in the house. As a result, she separated our cell phone plans. Obviously, this is the opposite direction most people recommend to rebuild trust. Should I begin making demands to see these things immediately or be patient and wait to make these demands when she demonstrates a desire to reconcile?
- My wife also seems to be GAL. In addition to the occasional trip to the driving range, she has started attending two other activities throughout the week. It’s funny how we never had time or money to do these when things were "good", but I digress. My issue is that these activities can sometimes conflict with things I’d like to do or require me to make adjustments to my schedule. Should I be discouraging these things in any way or simply detach and negotiate schedules so we can both do what we need to do?
- When attempting to do things alone with kids they often invite her to come along with us. Is that okay? If she or the kids invite me to an activity they have planned, should I go?
- Our oldest has a birthday coming up in a few weeks and I’m not sure how to approach it. We have asked friends and family to attend a party but only her mother knows of our marital issues at this point. Should I attend or should I make myself unavailable? It kills me to not be there for my kids, but if a tough approach is recommended, maybe it’s a worthwhile sacrifice.
I guess the question really comes down to what kind of engagement should I be having with my wife and how tough should I be with her given the current state where we seem to be coasting? When do I lean toward patience and allow the affair to take its course or her to see the changes I'm making? When do I lean toward tough love and start making demands and ultimatums knowing that it could result in her leaving?
I also have to admit that the more I post here, the more concerned I am that my wife will find this thread. I can ensure that she won't find it on my computer, but if she is truly interested in reconciling, the risk is that she could eventually find this place. I have a lot of specific details in my initial post. I obscured a little, but in hindsight probably not enough. How often to wayward spouses stumble on posts here? Any advice for reducing the risk I already introduced? For example, starting a new post and letting this one die through lack of use or having a mod replace the original post with an edited one.
Keep things vague. Blur or change some info. Don't quote things verbatim.
Re the other post: coasting isn't bad. It gives you time.
Go out and GAL. Get a babysitter if you need to or say no, you have plans and go if that's a 180 and what you want.
You also didn't violate the trust. She did. My w complained I didn't trust her. I asked her if that was important to her.I then asked why. She would only say it was important so I asked what she had done to improve trust then since it's so important. Hasn't mentioned it since.
Maybe all I can do is just be a better man and father and stop worrying about whether she can or will fall in love again (Likely). I just don't know how to be a man she can fall in love with or be able to show that man to her when so much of our relationship was built on deep and intimate conversations. When we were dating, it was about going to restaurants, watching movies or TV together, and just going out, exploring the town and spending time together. We spoke incessantly about everything.
Yes, stop worrying if she will love you or not. That causes a man to act as if he's living to please her, and he will walk around on egg shells. You just be the best man you can be. However, that doesn't mean you are the typical "nice guy" type that the No More Mr. Nice Guy book talks about. It is not about giving over to her way all the time, to keep the peace. It is certainly not be a passive type, b/c women hate that in men!
Before you can enjoy engaging in the intimate conversations, you will need to become the guy you would have been if you were single and a girl treated you this way. What would you have done back then? The problem comes when men become passive, thinking they are making the W happy by letting her make all the decisions and have her way above anyone else.........even when it's wrong.
I don't know how to show her that man has returned (or was always there) when I'm detaching and avoiding unnecessary communication. I don't know how to demonstrate these qualities when she is still in a fog, communicating with and feeling "in love" with the OM. If the OM is "her best friend and her support" and is already doing everything that I need to do to help her fall in love with me, how do I differentiate myself from him and allow her to realize that she already has everything she wants and needs in me?
That's b/c you don't know how to think like a woman. Men only think they know what women want in a H. Well, I can tell you what they don't want. They don't want a man who would tolerate her being in an A! They don't want a man who is willing to stick around and play second fiddle to OM. You don't get a wayward woman catering to her, competing with her OM. You don't get a WW's love and respect by being her BFF when she's in an A! Forget the intimate conversations.......or anything intimate, as long as OM is in the picture.
You are too dependent on what great friends you were. She is not your friend, now. So, get your head out of the past M, and get real with the present situation. She is wayward. You cannot deal with a WW as though you would a normal W.
You don't show her support during her A. Perhaps that sounds harsh, but so be it. These guys who always want to support their cheating W! What's with that? If you were screwing another woman, would you really expect your W to be supportive???
The only exception I might make would be if there was a death in the family, or one of the kids were seriously hurt, if she was seriously ill, or something along those lines. But not the kind of support most of you men think about here.
Is it simply a matter of doing what you can to be the man she fell in love with or could fall in love with again and then remaining patient? Is it simply to become that man and wait for the affair to end naturally? Is that all I can do without giving her an ultimatum?
No, It's not simple. No, don't wait around patiently for her A to end naturally. Some affairs last for years. No, don't give an ultimatum. No, that's not all you can do.
No, to all those questions!
I do not suggest writing any letters at this time.
The problem with most newcomers is believing that's all they can do!
My response was that she knew where I stood and I wasn't going to make decisions for her. Perhaps that was the wrong response, but it felt right at the time. Especially if im trying to use the LRT. I have no interest in controlling her. She needs to make her own decisions and demonstrate her commitment or non commitment to our marriage. Of course the longer this plays out, the more it seems her mind is made up to leave us for the OM.
Sounds like a good answer. What good is calling her out, if you don't have proof? She'll just lie her way out of it, anyway. I think it's when the W
does ask if it's okay, that a man's radar should go off.
The counseling sessions do no good for the MR until she's ended the A, and she's willing to do whatever is necessary to fix the MR. Some IC even encourage the patient to leave the M and do whatever makes them happy.
My response was that she knew where I stood and I wasn't going to make decisions for her. Perhaps that was the wrong response, but it felt right at the time. Especially if im trying to use the LRT. I have no interest in controlling her. She needs to make her own decisions and demonstrate her commitment or non commitment to our marriage. Of course the longer this plays out, the more it seems her mind is made up to leave us for the OM.
Sounds like a good answer. What good is calling her out, if you don't have proof? She'll just lie her way out of it, anyway. I think it's when the W
does ask if it's okay, that a man's radar should go off.
The counseling sessions do no good for the MR until she's ended the A, and she's willing to do whatever is necessary to fix the MR. Some IC even encourage the patient to leave the M and do whatever makes them happy.
My response was that she knew where I stood and I wasn't going to make decisions for her. Perhaps that was the wrong response, but it felt right at the time. Especially if im trying to use the LRT. I have no interest in controlling her. She needs to make her own decisions and demonstrate her commitment or non commitment to our marriage. Of course the longer this plays out, the more it seems her mind is made up to leave us for the OM.
Sounds like a good answer. What good is calling her out, if you don't have proof? She'll just lie her way out of it, anyway. I think it's when the W
does ask if it's okay, that a man's radar should go off.
The counseling sessions do no good for the MR until she's ended the A, and she's willing to do whatever is necessary to fix the MR. Some IC even encourage the patient to leave the M and do whatever makes them happy.
Also, in regards to GAL, how do I do that without impacting our kids, or appearing that I'm less involved with them? One of her complaints was that I didn't help with the kids and if I leave the kids with her to do things on the weekend, doesn't that reinforce her perception of me?
You are programmed to think how she wants you to think. Stop it. She will hold those old complaints over your head and make you a spineless puppet, if you don't stop it. Stop trying to GAL that includes you keeping the kids. And, no, it will not have an unhealthy impact on them. Having a well-rounded father, who is not co-dependent on his W, will have a very positive impact.
Am I saying to never spend time with your kids? No, I am saying not to save your GAL for just weekends. I am saying she will invite herself along on anything that appears to family stuff. You cannot afford to consider it your GAL.
What is she losing due to her waywardness? Is she worried she may lose you? She should be. She's a cheater and she should be concerned you've had enough of her craziness about never leaving the kids with anyone, while the M is shot to hell. She should be concerned that she hasn't been intimate with you, and how she's being unfaithful.
Time to reframe things to see if that helps adjust my thinking and approach. These are the questions I currently have. Hopefully, some of you can chime in and let me know what you think.
- We seem to be coasting right now. She hasn’t specifically mentioned the word divorce or separation, only distance and space. She is, of course, not wearing her rings. She said that she isn’t in love with me and has a lot of anger and resentment toward me. She said that from the beginning, she wasn’t happy and felt she needed to make a decision whether she could fall back in love and be happy with me or whether she needed to leave and be alone to find that happiness. She claims the EA was not intended and it’s a choice of me or being alone, not me and the OM (Yeah, right /sarcasm). We’re in MC and she says she is trying to reconcile, but hasn’t demonstrated what I would call true remorse. Should I ask her the question "What do you believe needs to change for you to stay?” I haven't done that yet because it seems little needy or pursuit driven but it also makes it difficult to truly understand what kinds of things (180s, etc.) I should be working on.
- When should I begin taking a tougher approach? By tougher approach, I mean taking steps to cause her to experience the losses and pain associated with her decisions, per Sandi’s Wayward Wife threads. For example, asking her to leave the MBR, asking her leave the house and leave the kids with me, stop doing chores/doing her laundry, stop attending family activities, holiday gatherings, sending a no contact letter to OM, etc. It seems an ultimatum or tough approach right now is ill-advised, but I know I may simply be fearful and so want an outside perspective as much as possible.
- We are currently living in the same house, but sleeping in separate rooms. I’m in the guest room because I moved out 6-8 months ago due to snoring brought on by weight gain. We were on relatively good terms then and often spoke of how frustrating it was to be away from each other at night. Is it worth asserting myself and move into the master bedroom? Should I move in and kick her out? If she refuses, do I simply get in the bed with her until she decides to leave? If she claims to be working to reconcile and also claims to have NC with OM, do I allow her to stay in the same bed? I only mention this specifically because it was pointed out as an example of demonstrating confidence in one of Sandi’s threads about wayward wives (which I assume mine is due to the EA).
- My wife claims I violated her trust and privacy because I found messages on her phone implicating her EA and later found a present for OM in the house. As a result, she separated our cell phone plans. Obviously, this is the opposite direction most people recommend to rebuild trust. Should I begin making demands to see these things immediately or be patient and wait to make these demands when she demonstrates a desire to reconcile?
- My wife also seems to be GAL. In addition to the occasional trip to the driving range, she has started attending two other activities throughout the week. It’s funny how we never had time or money to do these when things were "good", but I digress. My issue is that these activities can sometimes conflict with things I’d like to do or require me to make adjustments to my schedule. Should I be discouraging these things in any way or simply detach and negotiate schedules so we can both do what we need to do?
- When attempting to do things alone with kids they often invite her to come along with us. Is that okay? If she or the kids invite me to an activity they have planned, should I go?
- Our oldest has a birthday coming up in a few weeks and I’m not sure how to approach it. We have asked friends and family to attend a party but only her mother knows of our marital issues at this point. Should I attend or should I make myself unavailable? It kills me to not be there for my kids, but if a tough approach is recommended, maybe it’s a worthwhile sacrifice.
I guess the question really comes down to what kind of engagement should I be having with my wife and how tough should I be with her given the current state where we seem to be coasting? When do I lean toward patience and allow the affair to take its course or her to see the changes I'm making? When do I lean toward tough love and start making demands and ultimatums knowing that it
Cole, I discussed all these things in the WW threads, if you care to read them.
Sandi,I just finished the ww threads which is what lead me to reframe things. I feel like it might be time to be tough and I guess maybe I'm looking for some reassurance that I understand and am interpreting everything correctly. My emotional state these days makes me a little less trusting of my own judgement.
My wife just engaged me in a discussion about our relationship by asking if I thought we were making progress. She said she also thought we were coasting and I agreed and told her it's better than sinking and these things take time. Then I asked her how she would know if they were getting better and her response was that she would know when she had a reason to stay, that her goal is what she told our MC - she was looking for a reason to stay. Then she asked if I really thougt we could reconcile and so untold her r that while it wouldn't be easy I had read about couples that do and have different but better marriages. Her response was that she didn't think she could get past the way I behaved in our last fight and the trust/privacy issues. We finally tabled it. Not exactly promising, but I'm trying to remember to ignore what comes out of her mouth.
The Worst part was later when my oldest was sitting at the table and decided to draw our family. Hearing him talk about all of us together made me lose it and I had to leave. I know she's not the woman I married anymore and isn't thinking straight but isn't our family reason enough to stay? I'm destroyed and yet enraged.
And for the sake of people mentioning it, yes, I understand that kids/family may not be a great reason to stay together but it's definitely a huge reason to work towards it.
You are programmed to think how she wants you to think. Stop it. She will hold those old complaints over your head and make you a spineless puppet, if you don't stop it. Stop trying to GAL that includes you keeping the kids. And, no, it will not have an unhealthy impact on them. Having a well-rounded father, who is not co-dependent on his W, will have a very positive impact.
What is she losing due to her waywardness? Is she worried she may lose you? She should be. She's a cheater and she should be concerned you've had enough of her craziness about never leaving the kids with anyone, while the M is shot to hell. She should be concerned that she hasn't been intimate with you, and how she's being unfaithful.
Thanks for these points, among others Sandi. not sure if you read the rest of my posts (I'm obviously verbose), but I'm considering some changes to my approach and this is a good reminder of what's important now.
Yes, I read your posts and glad to see you ready to make a change from doesn't work. This so-called trust issue she has about you is complete b.s. She is twisting things around on you and making it sound as if you are the one that has violated trust in the M. Ironic, isn't it?
Whenever she engages in one of these discussions (at this point), you need to be very cautious b/c she is mostly temp checking to see if you are still clinging to hope. It assures her that she sits at the control panels of the MR.
The LBH is too quick to assure his WW that he's still on board and trying to convince her things will be better. When he does this, it's like he puts all the burden on him to do all the R work. She is the one who split it open, and she doesn't get to pretend it was you. Okay, so you had to look and see why she was acting the way she was, b/c she was not being honest. (How's that for a trust issue? She was being deceitful.).
You sound like a good guy who, like many other men, followed along with whatever your W said. Inveribly she will lose attraction and respect, and she calls it "unhappiness". She is unhappy, true enough.
She will not be talked into staying. Not while she feels swept away with OM. If she begins talking about the MR, just let her talk, but don't volunteer to share your feelings. Stand firm and don't let her break you down.
Tough day today. Didn't sleep much last night and had to take off work. I keep wondering why I fight this battle. I keep wondering if it's worth fighting for someone who has a history of putting themselves at risk for EAs. I'm her second marriage so maybe we were/are already fighting the odds to begin with.
She once told me during a heated discussion post d-day that she didn't wait to get divorced before entering a relationship with the OM because she knew I would fight it and not let her go. To her, the EA had the appeal of an escape plan. She would later say the decision to enter the EA was a stupid one, but one she made out of survival. Whatever helps her sleep at night, I guess. I know, don't believe what's coming out of her mouth
Am I just wasting my time? Am I just setting myself up for another EA years down the road if we reconcile? Am I just doing this for the kids?
I guess I'm just venting and trying to purge the doubts swimming in my mind. I'm just not looking forward to the holidays because no matter what path we're on, it's going to hurt like hell.
Still, going to see what happens in our next MC session then see what affect that has on my plans to change things up. Regardless, I have a feeling she's not going to be happy with me but it's time she start feeling some of the consequences.
Am I just wasting my time? Am I just setting myself up for another EA years down the road if we reconcile? Am I just doing this for the kids?
It doesn't have to be. It mostly depends upon how you handle yourself, and of course, her.
A woman does not have to be in an EA in order to escape her M. She is just playing you for a fool. Don't believe that garbage.
If she's had more than one EA, then there is a good chance she'll have another one. It is very important that you do not take her back into the MR without her doing some very hard work. And, as long as she's blaming you for her A, she is far from doing the work. She needs to have consequences for her behavior. She needs to believe she's losing you. She needs to pursue you, instead of you chasing her. When she humbles herself and you see true remorse in her, and she is willing to go back into the M under YOUR conditions, then you are ready to think about reconciling. That's just the beginning. B/c of her serial EA's, she will need to adhere a strict transparency plan, and maybe from on. Of course, she would have to battle the withdrawals of the A. I would strongly suggest a very recommendable MC during the reconciliation and piecing. I don't know the one you are currently using would be the right one, or not. It sure isn't cutting the mustard now, but that's b/c your W is wayward. MC doesn't work, unless both spouses are wanting to save the M.
However, that could be a ways off. Right now, you need a plan of action. No more Mr. Nice Guy, get that book, along with Hold on to your N.U.T.S. They are highly recommended by former nice guy types. And by nice guys, I really mean the fearful, passive, "yes dear" husbands.
Thanks for the advice, Sandi. I'll look into those books.
Right now, you need a plan of action. No more Mr. Nice Guy, get that book, along with Hold on to your N.U.T.S. They are highly recommended by former nice guy types. And by nice guys, I really mean the fearful, passive, "yes dear" husbands.
Sorry to hijack your thread, but thanks Sandi for posting that. I need those books, too. I am afraid that I am a nice guy, also...
Counseling went okay. At least I feel a little more up beat than usual. We were able to agree that the root of our marital problems really had to do with differences in how quickly we are able to forgive and move on after arguments and the timing of various problems that occurred in the past year. While I was quick to recover, she took longer and because she took longer, she was never able to achieve her baseline of satisfaction/love before she was hit with another problem. The end result was that I thought things were okay and she was slowly whittled down until there was nothing left. It was also enlightening to realize that we expressed the same concerns about our marriage but were simply never in sync about when we identified the problem and never seemed to take the time to address it. I think we're at least making progress in understanding what went wrong to make each other feel so detached, unloved, and unappreciated. Of course that doesn't solve our current predicament.
My wife still hasn't demonstrated true remorse but instead questions whether she can feel romantic love for me again. For her, that seems to be the question. The EA continues to be ignored, but clearly we can't restore romantic love if her heart belongs to someone else. I'll definitely have to think more before taking next steps.
She also thought I was intentionally withholding details about my gal activities she said she didn't understand why I would intentionally hide what I was doing but she also wasn't going to try to pry details from me.
At this point, it might be worth being patient. The resentment and anger seems to be diminishing and she said today that the time she is spending on her own has given her more strength and peace than she has in a while (like gal is supposed to). It's difficult to say what that means, but she does seem to be opening up more and I don't want to slide back by being too aggressive. Am I falling for a trap?
She also thought I was intentionally withholding details about my gal activities she said she didn't understand why I would intentionally hide what I was doing but she also wasn't going to try to pry details from me.
That seems to be going the same way as others have described it to be. Sounds like she is curious, but who knows?
At this point, it might be worth being patient. The resentment and anger seems to be diminishing and she said today that the time she is spending on her own has given her more strength and peace than she has in a while (like gal is supposed to). It's difficult to say what that means, but she does seem to be opening up more and I don't want to slide back by being too aggressive. Am I falling for a trap?
Patience is something that I am learning the hard way. My W has said the same thing, so just like you I don't know what to make of it. I wouldn't say its a trap, but more like she is testing you. Honestly, I don't know how to answer that one. Some will say stick your toe in and test the waters, while others wouldn't. It seems that she may be opening a little, but trying to figure out what is going on in their heads is a lot easier than quantum physics. The only thing that I can add is go with what your gut tells you...but then again, my advice pretty much goes against what everyone else says.
Cole
Just read up on your sitch a bit and Saudi hit on something that is going to be hard for you to swallow. You are a nice guy, I was too... I entered MC thinking that W wanted to work on the M, turned out she was still with OM and all she was attempting to do was show up, see if she could learn anything to apply to her A while being able to tell everyone and herself that we went to MC and things just didn't work out. MC is pointless and impossible with 3 people. You really might want to think about this, save your money and your time and put a halt to the MC till you can be assured the A is over, your WAW has had time to grieve the loss of the A, she has said those magic words "I'm committed to this M and want to work on it"
This is a tall task and one YOU have to become strong enough to put into motion. For me I had to do a great deal of work on myself, stop being a doormat and began to earn the respect my W lost for me... Took a good deal of time but to this point was worth every minute .... Not because it gave me a chance at my M, but because it gave me a second chance at life, the one I wanted .... Becoming the man we all were meant to be far outweighs the risks involved provided you've had enough.
Agree with CaliGuy. If she is still involved with the OM, then MC is definitely a waste of time. For her to gain respect, you will have to step out of your comfort zone and really just put your foot down...as in, him or the family, but not both. Even if you did that, it would take a bit of time for the lost respect to be regained. But first and foremost, the OM needs to be dealt with.
The problem is that I have no way of knowing whether she is still involved with the OM. She says that she no longer talks to him outside of what is required at work, but I can only take her at her word and I haven't brought him up or questioned whether she was still talking to him for a while because I didn't want to make it a competition.
If she is not being transparent (Hiding call logs, text messages, etc), should I challenge that and her before engaging in further counseling? Seems like it's worth considering.
She says that she no longer talks to him outside of what is required at work, but I can only take her at her word and I haven't brought him up or questioned whether she was still talking to him for a while because I didn't want to make it a competition.
Here is where the problem lies. She cannot have an EA with a co-worker and continue working with him. She admits to talking to him as "required at work", so she thinks she has you over a barrell.
Do
not make it a competition! It's her decision to choose between right and wrong, but she can't walk with one foot in right and wrong at same time.
You, also, can make a decision for
yourself. This is not just about her deciding how your lives will go. You don't have to stand on the side lines waiting to see what she decides before you become proactive. You can continue to blindly feel your way along this path, or you can tell her you will not live in a M where there are three people involved. (^^^That's your boundary). She can either get another job to ensure a better chance of no contact with OM, and become transparent (transparency based on what
you decide, and without any warning or preparation for her), or you will take it to mean she has chosen the OM over her M and you will therefore take the necessary steps to protect yourself and your kids. However, if that's too tough for you, then what? Continue on the way you are now? Allowing her to have the best of both worlds? It seems that's a decision you will need to make. I will tell you this much, she'll test you. At the moment, she thinks she's clever and is playing you for a fool. She's using the workplace as her excuse to keep daily contact with OM. Do you really think they would end an A as long as they are working together? An EA can go on for a long time. She doesn't have to actually talk to him, but just seeing him can trigger those old addictive cravings.
If she is not being transparent (Hiding call logs, text messages, etc), should I challenge that and her before engaging in further counseling? Seems like it's worth considering.
Look, the only reason a woman would hide this stuff is if there's a good reason. It's called
"cheating". You have to be smart and tough. What good is "challenging" her if you aren't prepared to do anything about it, and especially thinking counseling will take care of it. I think a nice guy actually wants to hear his W give some logical explanation for why she is hiding information, so that he can go on believing it will just all work out......
somehow, b/c he doesn't want to have to make tough decisions and carry through with them.
What if she admitted she's contacting OM, but said it's business related and she kept it hid b/c she knew you'd get mad, jealous, etc.? You would buy it, just like you bought her b.s. about her only talking to him at work. Then what? What's the plan after that?
MC cannot do the work for you. MC cannot make her respect you. You have to do that on your own.
What good is "challenging" her if you aren't prepared to do anything about it, and especially thinking counseling will take care of it. I think a nice guy actually wants to hear his W give some logical explanation for why she is hiding information, so that he can go on believing it will just all work out......somehow, b/c he doesn't want to have to make tough decisions and carry through with them.
^^^What she said.
MC cannot do the work for you. MC cannot make her respect you. You have to do that on your own.
Sandi is spot on. Easier said than done, for sure. But must be done, nonetheless. I speak from experience - and from reading my threads, I am still working on that myself. Get back to where you were and don't take any BS and that respect will come back. Now, what happens in your marriage is a different question. But as others have said, without her respect, she definitely won't come around.
I know you are all correct, but as you said it's difficult. It's difficult not because I'm afraid of losing her, I've already lost her...she willingly gave her heart to someone else. I know that I will be fine on my own, I've been on my own before and I've always been a survivor. What kills me and what clouds my judgement is our kids and the dreams we once shared for our family.
If we didn't have kids I think it's fair to say that would have ended the relationship immediately or at least taken a much harder stance from the start. I know you shouldn't stay together for the kids, but I don't know of any bigger reason to fight.
Ultimately, I feel like I just need to step away for a while. I've been obsessively reading books and forum posts and throwing my entire being into this problem and it's not healthy. I know that. My work is suffering and my mental and emotional health is suffering. I believe I'm hiding my sadness from my wife and family, but I can barely play with my kids these days without them saying something that triggers tears. Just last night I was playing with them while my wife was doing some work and my oldest asked me if I was happy. It struck me as a strange question from a kid his age so I asked him he he thought I looked happy. He looked at me, and yelled "Yes!." I then asked him if he was happy. His response was "Yes I'm HAPPY! We're all a happy family!" I tried to hold back the tears as best I could and quickly walked away so he couldn't see me lose it.
I've scheduled an appointment with an IC and we'll see if they recommend any meds to take the edge off, get sleep, and kick this obsessive thought train and depression. I also just need to force myself to stop thinking about it. I need to give myself a break from this. I need to find distractions. I know GAL is supposed to do that, but I need more than that.
Also going to try and meet up with some friends this weekend to watch some football. Might be fun to bring the kids too since I think it's good for them to see their dad hanging out with other men and socializing with adults.
I know I said that I wasn't going to post for a while, but I found myself reading the text messages between my wife and the OM again tonight and I'm enraged.
Why would I want to be with someone who so casually throws away her family? Why would I want to even try to reconcile with someone who didn't love me enough to stay with me when times got tough? I'm so tempted to tell my wife our marriage and friendship are over tonight and she can run off with the OM while we co-parent through a third party.
I went through 3-4 years with a wife who didn't want to spend time with me, avoided intimacy, and criticized my parenting. For what? So she could feel unloved and run off with another man? I certainly met the cliche criteria for the typical cheating husband and yet I stayed faithful and still love my wife.
Why should any of us fight for our cheating spouses when their hearts belong to another? When they desire another and resent you?
I know you are all correct, but as you said it's difficult. It's difficult not because I'm afraid of losing her, I've already lost her...she willingly gave her heart to someone else. I know that I will be fine on my own, I've been on my own before and I've always been a survivor. What kills me and what clouds my judgement is our kids and the dreams we once shared for our family.
Cole, my intentions are not to imply what you say about your children is less than absolute truth. I have seen many, many nice guys come to the board. Whenever he feels backed into a corner, he invariably will bring up his kids. It is admirable, and yet, I have to wonder if this is LBH script for a lot of nice guy types. In other words, he knows in his brain that what we are saying is right, and he sees how he could seem like a schmuck if he continues,........so then, he will bring up his kids. I have challenged a few by telling them they are using their kids as their excuse to stay stuck in their nice-guy ways.
Now, unless you have read that little book, no more mr, nice guy, then you will not understand my previous statement. It is not said to cause more hurt, nor to offend you as a father. I hope you will examine yourself very deeply and thoroughly, and ask yourself if you are really trying to find a loophole. Once you become painfully honest, the next step will be to develop your plan of action.
We are not the enemy, and we really are trying to help you save your M. I'm sure this is nothing like you expected when you came aboard. Yes, it is hard! Every LBS says it, as if they never expected saving a M to be this difficult. It is. Furthermore, it is going to get much worse. You can throw in the towel; continue being a passive nice guy who follows his WW's lead; or you can tighten the girth.....get in the saddle, sit tall and get ready to travel a hard path.
Other nice-guy types have cut the trail for you. They changed from nice guys to fantastic men, who have the inner strength to be the kind of H women respect and adore. They first had to change their own way of thinking, and then change the dynamics in the relationship with the WW.
I hope you will accept the challenge, for your own sake, as well as for your children and your M.
Why would I want to be with someone who so casually throws away her family? Why would I want to even try to reconcile with someone who didn't love me enough to stay with me when times got tough? I'm so tempted to tell my wife our marriage and friendship are over tonight and she can run off with the OM while we co-parent through a third party.
I went through 3-4 years with a wife who didn't want to spend time with me, avoided intimacy, and criticized my parenting. For what? So she could feel unloved and run off with another man? I certainly met the cliche criteria for the typical cheating husband and yet I stayed faithful and still love my wife.
Why should any of us fight for our cheating spouses when their hearts belong to another? When they desire another and resent you?
Cole, I know exactly how you feel when you say these things. The way I try to think about it is, WAS's only think about the negatives when they start down and continue down the paths that they take. We as LBS's don't understand how they can not remember the good times and fight for them. So it is easy to look at her current negative actions and make a choice based on those. The reality is, you are rational and not in a fog. You are able to see the bigger picture and realize there is more to your R and M than the negatives.
Sandi, I know everyone here is on my team and giving me the tough love and advice I need and may not always be able to see for myself. I'm thankful for that.Those are the lenses through which I view all exchanges on this board.
I read the No More Mr. Nice Guy book the other day. The one area I was able to see myself was with respect to the attachments I have in my family. I've always been proud of my family and loved talking about them.
My wife is one of those people everyone loves. She's beautiful, intelligent, artistic, outgoing and extremely loving and giving. People are drawn to her and love being around her. The sense of self-worth I derive from telling people she's my wife has always been an ego boost and huge attachment for me. The same goes for my kids. They're amazing and people do constantly stop to tell us so.
It's funny, but the activities to break free are things that I've already started doing months ago. Mostly, taking care of myself and doing nice things for myself. I'm already someone who enjoys time alone. My biggest issue is that I've always placed the needs of my family and close friends above my own and that's going to take some time to change.
Maybe the question to ask is this:
Now that my wife and I are in this situation where we live in the same house but effectively separated, how do I know that I am doing something to address my needs and not doing something out of spite/resentment? How do I know if I'm being unreasonable? (Yes, totally sounds like Nice Guy™ script)
Is it simply a matter of saying "This is what I want. If you have a competing need, then you need to find a way to meet it without my cooperation"? Should I simply stop worrying about what she wants and just assert my own?
The best example is that I want her to stop playing golf and going to one of her activities because both can be associated with the OM. She sees them as a way she can release stress and do something for herself but I feel like the association with the OM is so strong that engaging in them now is disrespectful to me. I can't control her actions, but a boundary I can introduce is refusing to watch the kids while she does these things. Seems reasonable, but I know it'll result in a blowout. Worth it though, right? I just hate to go backward because she did try to engage me more yesterday.
Howya doing, Cole?
The best example is that I want her to stop playing golf and going to one of her activities because both can be associated with the OM. She sees them as a way she can release stress and do something for herself but I feel like the association with the OM is so strong that engaging in them now is disrespectful to me. I can't control her actions, but a boundary I can introduce is refusing to watch the kids while she does these things. Seems reasonable, but I know it'll result in a blowout. Worth it though, right? I just hate to go backward because she did try to engage me more yesterday.
Let me make sure I am reading you correctly - is she playing golf with the OM? Or is she just playing golf? Golf really isn't the issue. The bigger question, though, is she still involved with the OM? If not, then trying to stop her from playing golf (once again, as long as it isn't with the OM) wouldn't be a good idea. In fact, that would come across as very controlling, which would be a bad idea.
If she is still involved with the OM, then that is a whole separate issue than golf. First, that needs to be dealt with - like others have said earlier, either the family or the OM, but not both.
Let me ask you this, you two are separated, right? What is the goal of the separation? Is it to work on yourselves and to try to figure out where your M is heading? Or is it just a precursor to D? That boundary needs to be set, otherwise you will be in limbo.
I agree it seems controlling which is why I've avoided bringing it up. To my knowledge she is not playing golf with the OM. She's just been going to the driving range. Of course, I can't confirm that. She also told me that both she and the OM have agreed to not talk so that we can focus on our marriage. She's told me that before though. She also said that before I discovered the birthday gift she bought him and before she told me that they drove together, alone, to an after-hours work function. She knows where I stand on her contact with OM and I guess that's all I can do for now. When I learned of those things I put my foot down one last time and told her no contact meant absolutely no contact outside of work and if it happens again, I will file. I'm willing to do that now.
As for separation, we don't have a legal separation. We sleep in separate rooms and maintain minimal contact with the exception of the occasional activity we do as a family. She goes from being extremely cold and avoidant to engaging in conversation like nothing has changed. That's frustrating and heart wrenching.
What we're doing now is seeing a MC. She has told me that she agreed to see the MC because she wants to know if she can feel love for me again. If I take that at face value, maybe it means she wants to see where the M is going.
We had some pretty enlightening observations in our last MC session about how we both were asking for the same things in our marriage but always seemed to be too out of sync to realize it and fix them. The anger, resentment, and distance were the result of the past 6 months to a year. Everything in our lives was upended. We had childcare problems, financial stresses, significant changes in both our careers, my depression, and the eventual relationship stresses born from everything else. It was one thing after another and while I was able to recover quickly and move on after a fight, she wasn't. We learned it takes her much longer to accept/forgive after a fight. She would put up a front that everything was fine but since she never had enough time to deal with it before the next hit came, the anger grew into resentment. That's one of the reasons why I was so taken by surprise when she told me she didn't love me and needed space. We had been flirting, sending loving messages, etc. up until that day.
Our current plan in MC is to figure out a strategy for improving communication and solving problems. Once that's done, the MC believes we'll be better equipped to discuss the infidelity. We have one last joint MC session before our therapist sees us individually. I feel like MC is at least helping her better understand how we got to where we are and maybe after the individual session she'll better understand her role, How that relates to the issue of infidelity and the OM is yet to be seen. I guess that's why I'm trying to make time my friend and am reluctant to push too hard. At the same time, it's almost like MC is an opportunity for her to identify things she needs to fix for her next relationship.
I feel at times like I'm being walked all over, but maybe that's just me being hurt and hypersensitive. I sometimes wonder if I'm looking to find something I can request of her so that I can feel like I'm doing something to gain her respect. Maybe that's the reason for my recent rollercoaster.
Even if we're able to move forward and she becomes interested in piecing together our marriage, the biggest issue will continue be her ability sever contact with the OM and become more transparent.
There will be an opportunity for either her or the OM to be relocated to a different office early next year. That gives me some hope, but her stance from the start is that she doesn't want to lose the friendship she has with the OM and wishes that we could somehow become best friends. I'm sure you can imagine my response to that.
It has and always will come down to the choice of our family or the OM. My goal now is to take advantage of whatever time I have to make the choice for our family the easy one.
She also told me that both she and the OM have agreed to not talk so that we can focus on our marriage. She's told me that before though. She also said that before I discovered the birthday gift she bought him and before she told me that they drove together, alone, to an after-hours work function. She knows where I stand on her contact with OM and I guess that's all I can do for now. When I learned of those things I put my foot down one last time and told her no contact meant absolutely no contact outside of work and if it happens again, I will file.
Something isn't adding up. Maybe others can chime in, though. Maybe if she is telling the truth, it wouldn't hurt to get her to become fully transparent. But then again, a burner phone and private email could take care of that. Anybody else want to add to this?
As for separation, we don't have a legal separation. We sleep in separate rooms and maintain minimal contact with the exception of the occasional activity we do as a family. She goes from being extremely cold and avoidant to engaging in conversation like nothing has changed. That's frustrating and heart wrenching
I really wasn't referring to a legal separation, more like "this is how I see our separation going." I think it serve both of you well to identify just what the goal of the separation is. We defined our separation as this: to work on ourselves and also to work on what our R will be - in other words, two definable goals. That has made it much clearer and maybe a little easier for me, but that remains to be seen.
What we're doing now is seeing a MC. She has told me that she agreed to see the MC because she wants to know if she can feel love for me again. If I take that at face value, maybe it means she wants to see where the M is going.
Very, very, very much like what my W said. Mine said the same thing, and then a few months later said she was done and was going to file, and then wanted to go back to separation. Just take it for what it's worth and let actions speak for themselves.
At the same time, it's almost like MC is an opportunity for her to identify things she needs to fix for her next relationship.
What????
I feel at times like I'm being walked all over, but maybe that's just me being hurt and hypersensitive. I sometimes wonder if I'm looking to find something I can request of her so that I can feel like I'm doing something to gain her respect. Maybe that's the reason for my recent rollercoaster.
That may very well be, especially if she is still seeing the OM. If she isn't, then why are you feeling that way? Don't make any request of her - thats like asking if she notices any changes in you. Bad idea. You just have to show her - and that, my friend, takes time. Sometimes a lot of it.
There will be an opportunity for either her or the OM to be relocated to a different office early next year. That gives me some hope, but her stance from the start is that she doesn't want to lose the friendship she has with the OM and wishes that we could somehow become best friends. I'm sure you can imagine my response to that.
That is very, very unreasonable. Does she still feel that way? If so, then she wants her cake and to eat it, too. This is where you will have make what probably will be the hardest decision of your life. If she is unwilling to sever the relationship with the OM, then that is very telling. Not saying that she may be somehow telling the truth, but it sure would make it very hard to believe and trust. Don't know what else to say on that one...
When the time comes, if she can't sever the relationship with the OM, then I'm confident that I will be able to sever the marriage and friendship that she and I have. It will hurt like hell and make co-parenting a challenge, but I absolutely will not tolerate him in my life in any way.
When the time comes, if she can't sever the relationship with the OM, then I'm confident that I will be able to sever the marriage and friendship that she and I have. It will hurt like hell and make co-parenting a challenge, but I absolutely will not tolerate him in my life in any way.
Excellent, sir! I truly hope that what you wishes comes true. Its a very tough road to travel upon, and one I have wanted to give up on many times - and probably many more, too. One reason why I love this site so much is that they don't beat around the bush, give tough love when needed, and always supportive. Great place!
It seems I managed to walk into a relationship discussion/argument tonight. My wife asked if it would be okay to attend an out of town conference. I asked her if she would be going alone or if the OM would also be going. Her response was that she didn't know if he was, but it was possible. She then begrudgingly admitted that she wouldn't go if he did. That was good to hear.
Then the discussion progressed to the fact that working with him was unavoidable. I told her that I would not be in a relationship with three people. The discussion moved on to some of the propose organizational/career changes she could be facing and that she mentioned that it was possible that should could end up sharing an office with him. At that point i told her I would not be comfortable with that and if I had my way, he would relocate to another office in town. She said she could not order him to do that nor would she since he he's been there longer and had close ties to everyone there.
That's when I said that she could also move. She took offense to that and said she wasn't going to abandon her career. I told her that at some point we would need to make a decision about this and she may end up being forced to decide between our family and the OM or our family and her career in that office. That didn't go so well either. She repeatedly said If that's the case". Why don't we just end it now. You want me to leave my career. You think that's good for our family?"
I told her I had no problem ending our marriage if she wanted to choose the OM over our family. She said our problems weren't about him and complained that I always brought him into it. I told her that while we have our own issues, she brought him into our problems when she chose to have an EA with him. I'm concerned the conversation may have been interpreted as inconsistent with previous discussions and controlling behavior, but I stood my ground.
Still feels like a step backward though
Really need to stop torturing myself. I went back and started reading all the old emails and chat messages from when my wife and I started dating. It's amazing how much we were lost in each other and in love. I wish I could pull her into my lap and read these with her and reminisce. I wish she could just read these and realize how foolish we both have been and go back to the way things were.
Not feeling great about things today. My wife is much colder than she was yesterday... Definitely angry with me and it feels like we went backward. At what point do we begin chipping away at the anger and resentment rather than making it stronger? Not feeling very hopeful for a reconciliation today.
Really need to stop torturing myself. I went back and started reading all the old emails and chat messages from when my wife and I started dating. It's amazing how much we were lost in each other and in love. I wish I could pull her into my lap and read these with her and reminisce. I wish she could just read these and realize how foolish we both have been and go back to the way things were.
You know, Cole, I am guilty of the same thing. I have all our old emails and texts and I can't tell you the number of times I have gone back and read them. Heck, I still have the card she gave me for our anniversary last year - and it was the most loving thing I have ever read. Imagine that. I finally realized how much I was hurting myself by doing those things. Do I have a broken moment where I relapse and go back and read them? Sure, but those come fewer and farther between.
Its tough. This is the hardest thing I have ever been through and there are days where I just fall into a deep, deep funk. However, I am finding now that as much as I love my wife and want this marriage to work out, that I am becoming more fine with things - whatever that means. I just want her back. Maybe one day she will see it.