Oh baby, baby
Oh baby, baby
Oh baby, baby
How was I supposed to know
That something wasn't right here
Oh baby baby
I shouldn't have let you go
And now you're out of sight, yeah
Show me, how you want it to be
Tell me baby
'Cause I need to know now what we've got
[CHORUS:]
My loneliness is killing me
I must confess, I still believe
When I'm not with you I lose my mind
Give me a sign
Hit me baby one more time
Oh baby, baby
The reason I breathe is you
Boy you got me blinded
Oh baby, baby
There's nothing that I wouldn't do
That's not the way I planned it
Show me, how you want it to be
Tell me baby
'Cause I need to know now what we've got
Well, I've got range, anyway. Cold War Kids, Britney Spears, you know...
This thread is titled as such out of pure honesty for the battle in my heart lately.
I was mostly ok for a while and now I just cry. SOMEHOW I WANT HIM BACK. Dear Lord in Heaven, what is wrong with me? And this is where I need to confront that yes, I am codependent, enabling and basically ready for another cycle if he were to show the slightest interest.
Imagining that him not signing those papers wasn't the big cruel game I thought, it wasn't the inaction of a confused and messed up man, but it was him really thinking about what he'd done...come on, get real Zelda. Every, every single fact I have on hand supports the cold hard truth, the reality, not the hopeful ramblings inside my head.
I am 4 months past the big event, and as my anger has left me, and I have struggled to forgive without the apology I'll never receive...I feel my heart opening again. Trying to see and understand the point of view he must have had, DR style.
Vanilla and I had started an abuse thread a while back. This is me, yearning for the sweet cycle to begin again. Crying my eyes out almost daily. Fighting the urge to minimize, deny, rationalize the truth of it all. To go rescue him after hearing from paralegals and mediators that he didn't want his divorce.
Well, when I heard it, I did reach out, with an offer that I would stand for our M if counseling, and for a guy that didn't want his divorce...he shut me down with 'Zelda, I disagree and will not try to contact you.' STBX speaks out of one side of his mouth with one audience, another with me.
So. Here I am trying to hold to rational foundations and not the emotional tug.
A. There is no reason to think anything will change if he doesn't want to change. Abuse tactics changed, and that was all that did for six years. Even if he came back, we would have more of the same and I do not want it in my life. The past was sweet but it was also a heart wrenching roller coaster once or twice a month.
B. I am dodging a bullet and there is nothing to fear about the future without him. This is a new beginning.
C. As much as DR inspired self-change can help change the dance, this is different. I must not doubt myself or blame myself for causing his behaviors and reactions. I'm simply not that powerful. And I didn't deserve what he did to me, or him giving up.
I admit to being rigid and easily upset, and I wonder if I had dished out my own emotional abuse in the past. Criticism, lack of empathy in the face of his irrationality.
But I must honor the way it really was to live with him and my own feelings about it, even if there are changes to be made. I believe he was borderline personality - aimless, unemployed, volatile, abstract, erratic lashing out even at friends, alternately sugary sweet or raging, depressed, full of fog and weak grip on reality and how the world works. Trying to be compassionate in the face of this felt like being a therapist, a mother, and putting my own feelings on the shelf as to not disturb him. I felt like I had a tremendous weight around my neck. My journal tells me that I felt disrespected and taken for granted and that he stopped caring a long time ago.
D. Even if his was reactive abuse to my anger, he doesn't want to be here and I have pursued enough. I must drop the rope. Truly trust the outcome.
E. Love is not enough. Love is a lot of chemicals in my head, and just because this hurts and I am grieving - it doesn't mean the M is worth saving. Just because it hurts doesn't mean I am losing something wonderful. It hurts because I have the ability to deeply attach and because I believed we were soulmates.
(Some soulmate.
But you all would understand if you ever saw him, if you looked into his eyes when he was deeply listening, if you heard him sing to you in his boxers, if he got up at 4am just to make you breakfast before you left for work each day, if you felt the way it was to be loved by him and if your heart broke for his constantly breaking heart. If you felt those big hugs and dreamt all those dreams with him, if he built you a giant easel, anything you wanted, and got behind your dreams and all that emotional support, you'd understand how much I put up with, how I never walked away for good six years ago when he shoved me off of that dock and walked around the party telling my best friends what a who** I was...)
I've been listening to this song a lot lately by Billy Vera
What did you think
I would do at this moment
When you're standing before me
With tears in your eyes
Trying to tell me
that you have found you another
and you just don't love me no more
What did you think
I would say at this moment
When I'm faced with the knowledge
That you just don't love me
Did you think I would curse you
Or say things to hurt you
'cause you just don't love me no more
Did you think
I could hate you
Or raise my hands to you
Now come on you know me too well
How could I hurt you
when darling I love you
and you know
I'd never, never hurt you-oo-wo-oo...
What do you think
I would give at this moment
If you'd stay
I'd subtract twenty years from my life
I'd fall down on my knees
and kiss the ground that you walk on
If I could just hold you again
I'd fall down on my knees
I'd kiss the ground that you walk on baby
If I could just hold you
If I, could just hold you
If I, if I could just hold-hold you, again
Dmbfan, it does get better. I no longer think he is worth 20 years of my life...
thank you for stopping by.
Summary:
2009 - STBX and I are crazy in love, key word crazy. We are on a rollercoaster, but man I never felt this way. That scene at the party, I broke up with him, but he was so rational and well adjusted, we got back together later...
2010 - talks of M increase. IDK why he does and says what he does, when he loves me so much. Deceits, misgivings over his job losses, but it's ok, we'll work it out. I am still in love and I have so much hope and faith.
2011 - finally engaged, but was a sad proposal. That still hurts, it should have been a memory where I felt how much I was worth to him, but he rolled out of bed without a ring, said the sweet things about looking forward to his life with me, because the day had come to fish or cut bait. He seemed to really get behind the fiance thing though, and was more stable than as a BF. Still fights where, "Z, we shouldn't even be together"
2012 - Still a couple of ridiculous fights...and then the life changing car accident. Before going under he told the surgeon to reassure me, he was going to walk for his wedding. Our community folded around us, and we were well supported, even if every time someone said hello they asked how he was before asking how I was. He didn't want his pain meds, was afraid of them...I went to bed thankful he was still alive each night, happy to make that little prayer of gratitude. I was still crazy about him.
2013 - We were married. Honeymoon. Some of the happiest days and memories of my life, even now. The last day of the honeymoon, he left me on the street in Paris because I'd asked him to put his phone away and be present during our dinner. When I came back to the flat, his headphones on, I just went to bed beside him. An apology the next morning. Ok.
Behavior is increasingly erratic. I try to talk to him about my concern over pain meds/getting tested for his mother's personality dementia Pick's disease, nothing is making sense to me day to day.
2014- I am complaining to him via text about the shape of the house, I'm working three jobs and just need help...he blocks my phone calls and texts for a week, acts like nothing is wrong at home, asks to be taken out to dinner. Finally I figure it out and he is snide, "I'm not trying to divorce you just yet"
It gets worse throughout the year. He pushes me away hard. Claims I don't care about him, his medical situation, but he won't talk to me about any of it. Sees me as the enemy. Treats me worse. He's angry and volatile with his lawyer, blames me for everything. Sometimes apologizes and says how much he hates being a burden even when I reassure him he's not. Starts retreating emotionally, making sporadic efforts. Tells me I will need to F other men when I tell him I want children, and then runs around the family reunion with crocodile tears when I'm not looking, yet treats me icily. I find that he's been texting old female friends like he's on crack, and finally a mutual friend comes to me with how uncomfortable she is...bomb drops at MC. We separate.
I fly to his hometown to see him and sit in a room with him like an adult and talk it over. He comes back just for a day or two...then never leaves, putting his ring back on. Settles his case, and for about two months we are piecing, and he tells me how lucky he is to still have me, BUT he threatens to leave me, date other people, give up also during this time. It's very hard to continue DR, everything is still erratic, but I think I have a new tool in my toolbelt, we'll be fine. I think he is 'teething' and so put up with things I never did, staying calm, when I used to blow up and push back. In a way, things get better, and they also get worse. Bigger swings.
His settlement check is scheduled to arrive. He gets physically violent in a way I never knew. I was afraid for the first time. Treated to three days of a silent treatment where he acted mad at me. He went out partying on my card without asking. I didn't know when I confronted him, roommate present, that he'd just picked up his check that afternoon. He shrugs, smirks. He doesn't care. Divorce is all we can do. I tell him he needs to find another place to stay then.
For the next two days he giggles in my presence, on the computer. Or cries. Acts as though nothing is wrong. Magically can drive his car and doesn't need the cane, either. He leaves, and we meet three weeks later to discuss things. He pushes dissolution papers at me, but I just can't. Two hour conversation recorded, and he's rather at peace with things in seems, tells me he has no interest in thinkng about things, just wants to take care of himself and sleep around, I brought the fight to him, it was why he didn't care to address his anger, he understands it was wrong, doesn't care. Not interested in reflecting on anything. Yes, but he's lost his temper before he says...well, it was the easy decision to make, it's not like a wife who is afraid of her husband is a healthy thing and people don't change he says.
He uses a paralegal to draw up divorce papers, demands I sign. I do. There is verbal abuse via text from him, but three months go by, and when asked why he isn't signing, "it's just paperwork, what do you care?"
Finally I hire a mediator, someone we'd both known. "I don't even understand why I'm getting D...SHE wants this...I'll sign if it's what she wants..." He calls our MC the day he signs and leaves a message.
I panic and reach out to him. Tell him there is a path back, it will be difficult, but we loved each other enough it is possible if he will get counseling. "Z, I disagree, I will not try to contact you."
I always pursued him in the past the three times we broke up or almost did. I was the adult in the room. I inspired, I talked of faith. We talked through the details enough to get to where we could see each other's point of view and make promises of how it wouldn't happen again. As long as I was the first to say I'm sorry, I can see how I provoked/caused/how you misunderstood...
So here I sit, thinking I could maybe have him back again if I will pursue just a bit harder, like I did when we were 'piecing' and didn't that work out well...
Wow....is he still on the pain medicine now?
MY WW today asked her doc to drop her Oxy dose in half. This last week she has been saying how when she is on it she feels like she doesn't care about wrong/right. She still understands what they are but don't matter. I've read online quite a bit of the effects Oxy can have on a person and while I know that isn't the entire story it sure doesn't help things!
I don't know. He told me he was barely taking 5mg a day, sometimes 10, as prescribed, on top of morphine derivative patches...also said he'd take it when he was stressed and it was a reason we shouldn't be together...he sent out cries for help to my girlfriends, like "oh I guess I'll just take another, it doesn't matter," and then while we were S, tried to make new friends by giving the stuff away in his hometown bc all his friends have families and couldn't go out at night. What a prince.
When he came back to piece it was one of the first issues we addressed at the MC, and she worked through it with me and said that it sounded like he was being monitored by three different doctors at a very low dosage and this was going to be part of me trusting what he was telling me about taking it as prescribed.
IDK if he is still on it. He went to someone's party the day he signed the papers and I heard he looked clammy and sweaty like he was on something or coming off of it. Not my problem any more.
He told me that the apathy was like floating and everything was warm and pleasant after a dose. Like your W told you, just didn't care.
I figured I can sit here for the rest of my life wondering if it is Oxy, a combo of that and anti-depressants, borderline traits, is he an unfeeling sociopath, is he showing early signs of Pick's disease...
You know what that little bit of white stuff is called, on top of a chicken chit, the bit that is a different texture and consistency than the rest?
Chicken chit.
It doesn't matter why/what...as a spouse, we've done all we can and they have to want help/change and we can't force them to feel anything they don't. Just got to work on us, the only thing we can control.
Z
I don't know what to say really, except I understand and
Hugs
V
I have found this week that increased crying is a useful discharge for emotions that I've previously been processing in a merry go round. Crying and grief is necessary for acceptance and I am trying to move myself there. Without discharge, the train is just going to keep going around the tracks.
STBX has activated his FB account after shutting it down to hide from ins companies on his lawyer's advice 3 years ago...he's deleted every single one of our shared acquaintances or friends...over 100. 30 or so of his close friends and family remain as shared bc I suppose he can't delete them just bc they choose to stay on my FB. If I had any thought he might say at the hearing that he would consider counseling, this does not support it. He is clearing out his old life.
I don't know why I keep looking for signs for hope or keep arguing with myself. Even doubting what I've seen and experienced.
I think I am having the hardest time wrapping my head around the fact that STBX, who was everything, feels nothing for me. The switch is off. He told me months ago he didn't think I could be the person he needs in his life, and I want to internalize that and argue about it.
I'm also having such a hard time not trying to convince myself (as he did) that I brought out this behavior in him some how, or I was abusive to him. Especially with his actions, hell, I'm almost convinced. He says to me when I reached out that contact from me is painful. He is cutting all ties. When he's not claiming that I wanted the D, he's claiming that I am manipulative and awful.
I have a few moments I regret through the years, but I remember falling all over myself in embarrassment and apology even then. Emotional floods, erratic, angry, panicked responses to the things he would do or say. Just ugly fighting on my part when I'm usually impassive, calm...he told me that day in the cafe that I "had a different form of violence...anger in my words, was almost visceral..." Is this true? I don't know. I thought I was a normal woman, disappointed and confused trying to explain to him how upsetting x y or z was. Of course, no one wants that to be the routine, a partner who is always unhappy at them, but how can a R be safe if people can't be honest in their emotions? He believed in waiting until emotion cooled down (which seemed like silent treatment for days) before talking about anything; I believe(d) in trying to talk through it as soon as possible, emotion or not, in order to work out the issue with partner and seek harmony again.
I feel mixed up.
It's like all over again when I first found this board. I had lost it when he flipped me off, "F you, Z," as I was trying to talk to him about what was wrong. I lost it because of that tone of voice of his, paternal, nasty. And I was resolute in my anger. I could not have a H with EAs, taking me for granted, talking to me that way, contributing virtually nothing.
Then weeks went by. I started seeing his POV, feeling sorry for how lonely and depressed he must have been. Surely he was right, I wasn't a good friend to him...
I felt myself slip as soon as I tried to forgive. I didn't want to be eaten up by my own anger anymore, but this is almost worse. Imagining I'm the bad guy, and there goes my poor sweet H down the street, who lost his temper one night, wasn't a good communicator, and there's his W who is so rigid and angry.
I can't keep in straight in my head how I see him, how I see the past. I'm afraid my IC isn't doing much good.
Hi Z,
It sounds like you've been through hell in your M and are confused. Which is perfectly normal. It also sounds like your H was abusive which would make it even more normal for you to feel confused.
You are only responsible for 50% of your M. That's it. Don't beat yourself up. Instead use that energy to heal. To make yourself strong. To fill yourself up with compassion for the woman that went through all that you did. Compassion for her before compassion for your H.
Instead of trying to see him and see the past, just let them be and focus on how you see yourself moving forward. What qualities about you are amazing? What qualities do you want to develop further. The past is behind you, but Zelda is before you.
It sounds like you're struggling, so I'm sending you my own compassion. I'm sorry you're where you are and wish there was more I could do other than listen and give you a hug.
Hug,
PP
Hi Zelda, first let me apologize for not knowing your entire sitch, I've been away from the forums for quite a while and am just now hopping back in.
I have found this week that increased crying is a useful discharge for emotions that I've previously been processing in a merry go round.
Absolutely! And for the men out there, don't be ashamed to cry your eyes out, it is almost mandatory in recovering from losing your M. I used to cry all the way home from work, then pull it together long enough to walk past my kids, then lock the door, go in the bathroom and let her rip again. And I have never been one to cry, I was raised in one of those "men don't cry" households. I cried more after BD then I think I have in the rest of my life added together.
STBX has activated his FB account after shutting it down to hide from ins companies on his lawyer's advice 3 years ago...he's deleted every single one of our shared acquaintances or friends...over 100.
This is standard operating procedure for a WAS/ MLCer. Try not to let it get to you, try to take solace in knowing almost all WAS's engage in this kind of behavior. They flush their old life down the toilet and embrace a new devil-may-care life and lifestyle (especially if he's MLC). Eventually the novelty of it wears off and the price of such a lifestyle (emotionally, physically and financially) comes home to roost and they start doing the soul-searching they need to do to recover.
If I had any thought he might say at the hearing that he would consider counseling, this does not support it. He is clearing out his old life.
Looking at the timeline in your sig, I'm sorry to say but you are in the first mile or two of your marathon. I know this is tough to hear but your timeline is not weeks or months, it's years. You are expecting too much too soon if you think he will consider counseling right now. If he were to go to counseling this soon he would just use it all to justify his actions.
I don't know why I keep looking for signs for hope or keep arguing with myself. Even doubting what I've seen and experienced.
HOPE IS GOOD. Hang onto hope, it's what gets us through this turmoil. It is way too early to give up hope.
I think I am having the hardest time wrapping my head around the fact that STBX, who was everything, feels nothing for me.
He has feelings still, but he has buried them deep under layers of other stuff. All you can do is live your life, be the best possible you that you can be and leave him to his mess.
He told me months ago he didn't think I could be the person he needs in his life, and I want to internalize that and argue about it.
Remember Sandi's rules! "Do not believe anything they say and 50% of what they do. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because he/she is hurting and scared." Most LBS's cannot believe their angry, cold, unfeeling WAS may actually be hurting or scared inside, but they absolutely are. I had read Sandi's rules literally hundreds of times but still didn't believe it about my ex, she was the Rock of Gibraltar rendered in ice, LOL! But then she finally disclosed to me that she had been crying every single night (and this was many months after BD) because she was scared and ashamed at her actions. I was stunned, she just seemed so cold and uncaring I never imagined she was actually hurting. I thought I was the only one suffering, and in retrospect I see how selfish an attitude that was and I am embarrassed that I wasn't more cognizant of her suffering.
I thought I was a normal woman, disappointed and confused trying to explain to him how upsetting x y or z was. Of course, no one wants that to be the routine, a partner who is always unhappy at them, but how can a R be safe if people can't be honest in their emotions? He believed in waiting until emotion cooled down (which seemed like silent treatment for days) before talking about anything; I believe(d) in trying to talk through it as soon as possible, emotion or not, in order to work out the issue with partner and seek harmony again. I feel mixed up.
Of course you do, everything has been turned upside down. Here's the thing though, your H isn't the H you knew. The dispute resolution techniques you used before will not work now. That does not mean they were wrong! They were right for the time, but that time has passed. You have to think of things as pre-BD and post-BD. Do try and determine what you may have done wrong in the M and correct those things about yourself, but don't beat yourself up over it, view it as a learning experience. I've never read a single sitch here where the LBS was 100% at fault. Usually it's closer to 50-50. Your H probably screwed up as much as you did, but he's trying to fix things by leaving the M instead of addressing where the REAL problems are- inside himself. It takes a long, long time for the WAS to look inward. In the meantime, move forward in life, be the best you possible, and most of all, be patient
Yeah, thanks Pig Pen. Too much energy wrapped up in wondering what his experience was and is, what he is, what the past was.
I need to focus on how not good my experience was.
How I don't want to be treated that way or have to deal with that in a R or M.
I wasn't perfect, but I worked hard to provide and to be a good partner despite constantly shifting ground. You are right, I need to give compassion to me.
Future...
I'm scared. Scared of ending up alone. Scared of these feelings and all of these obsessive thoughts not going away.
I should be grateful for the time on my hands, having been able to keep everything out of the M, being able to move forward. An analogy...the engine is in tact, but there's not gas, no one driving...I've lost so much momentum on my own desire for goals or anything. So much of what I did, he was my reason for building this little life. And it seems so pointless now. I care about making my bill payments and working hard enough for that. I am eating right and caring for my body, my animals. But there's nothing in me that wants anything, the desire for increasing retirement account, buying an investment property, taking my career to the next level, I just don't feel any motivation for any of it. Even the kids I wanted...I was fairly panicked about my little bio clock when H had returned to piece, but now, I don't know...it's a vague panic. Like I know something important is slipping away and I should care, I should go to a fertility clinic, maybe freeze some eggs, but I just can't see why, what for. I don't want to lay all that on a new partner, I can't even imagine being with anyone again.
Z
My lovely lady, it will take time to settle, that is a good thing, when you come to the end of this phase of your journey whatever your answer it will be be because you have thought about it.
It will also be as it will be. XWH is 50% of this too. Naturally you will ponder, consider it and I do the same. I doubt my WH ever would.
It seems in every phase of life there is a period of rest, a period of grace and stillness. Time to calm and grow. The machine can't be run with the foot on the gas and the brake. I sensed, please correct me, that there were times you stayed your gear in order to keep XWH paced along side. I would dearly love you to have a cheerleader in your life. A driver headed to the same destination who will stop for fuel, food and rest with you. Lovely Z, when you are ready I am sure such a one will appear.
There is time I know, and the egg clinic is important, or sperm donation or fostering or adoption. New partners take children into their lives all the time. In due course consider that which you truly desire and the best consequences, it just seems the egg clinic is a no lose, if you don't want that route eventually you cease to pay for storage, although it is an avenue explored a kind of holding area for a dream you have whilst you decide. A backstop position, sounds like a very worthwhile idea, definitely to consider evaluation as an idea at minimum. If it's no then it's a deliberate choice.
Have you read Gail Sheehy Passages? It is a milestone book about the phases of life, and so comforting, each phase of life has its meaning and place. I keep it close, although my copy is very battered, next time digital. Although I confess to liking the feel of paper in my hand with some books it feels tangible. The tablet lovely though it is, is fragile in nature, for some less substantial.
Peace of mind tonight
V
Thank you Vanilla...you're right, but this is a phase of life I am very resistant to accepting.
I saw my IC this morning. She wants to have me think about anti depressants and I told her no.
I'm going to put a photo of the smashed snd bent iPhone on my bathroom mirror though. That may help with reigning in some of the more emotional poor H it was probably me kind of thoughts.
I learned today that there is definitely a lot of unresolved stuff in this dynamic, from my childhood with my father. I learned that there was never anything wrong with me trying to discuss being upset or disappointed with my partner. His comment, Z, you have a different form of violence, your anger is just visceral in your words, my ic told me no.
I will be ok. I have to find more to occupy my mind, and like pigpen said start channeling some of that compassion to me instead of him.
I learned today that there is definitely a lot of unresolved stuff in this dynamic, from my childhood with my father. I learned that there was never anything wrong with me trying to discuss being upset or disappointed with my partner. His comment, Z, you have a different form of violence, your anger is just visceral in your words, my ic told me no.
I guess you will have to explain this to me, as I am slightly baffled by it
V
I didn't phrase that very well Z apologies.
It should have read:can you explain please I am baffled. Sorry
V
V, My STBX made that comment about my anger being visceral. IC called BS. Said there was nothing wrong with trying to let a partner know when you were upset. Said it was more manipulation...his problem, not mine.
The dynamic with my dad, it was repeated here in my M. Abuse, Jekyll and Hyde, instability, me trying to save the good guy inside.
Hi Zelda,
The pain you are expressing come through, and I feel for you. You will not end up alone. Please trust that. If you end up not being in another M it will be because you choose not to, but that decision will come when it is time, which it is not right now.
You seem to feel very responsible for your sitch, which is unfortunately all too normal in a sitch where there is abuse like yours. That is likely contributing to your crying and considering going back. I don't want to project on to your sitch, but often there is a desire to redeem the abusive relationship to make it OK and take away the pain of feeling responsible. You aren't responsible, and it is not your fault. It is hard to get out of an abusive relationship, and we socialize women in ways that makes it so. So, even though you continued in the M with abuse, it is not your fault, and you cannot make the pain go away by redeeming the M. It's not that an abuser can't get help and change, but that would take time, and right now, that isn't where I think your focus should be. Your focus should be on healing yourself. On learning to show yourself all the compassion and love you deserve.
I'm glad you are in IC, and your IC is right that you H doesn't want you setting boundaries and expressing your wants, needs, anger, or anything else that doesn't suit him. And quite frankly given what you've said, you have every reason to have that level of anger and that's tough for your poor H who is upset he can't act out upon however he pleases.
Stay strong. No matter how difficult it seems, you are loveable, and you need to start with you loving yourself and allowing your self the time and care to heal and sort everything out and then figure out where you want to go from there. Let your H focus on himself (he needs a lot of help from what you've said), and you just focus on loving yourself as best you can. You are already showing you have that in you by taking the steps you have. That takes a lot of strength.
Thank you, Asitis. Very kind post. I am feeling a little bit better today, a slightly smaller shift in my deep down acceptance that it is over. And for good reason.
AnotherStander, I missed your post originally. Thank you for your support and thoughts. Unfortunately, these are the kinds of thoughts that got me back into piecing, and it was the biggest mistake ever. I do not believe my husband is MLC, I strongly believehe has borderline mental health issues, on top of pain medication.
This was always a toxic and abusive marriage, but because he was so gentle and deep and caring at times, I excused a lot. I tried to take responsibility for too much. Like the time I dismissed his waking up in the middle of the night, after I had gone out to get a glass of water in the kitchen, when I returned to the bed he said, "Oh, you're back. I thought you were going out to F other men." I remember it took my breath away, so random and out vicious. But he was snoring within a minute and I dismissed it. We'd only been dating 6 months or so.
But things like this would happen. And as long as I could reason with him later about it, and we could talk about it, I kept believing we were building better communication and stability. I think I really wanted to save the poor tortured soul I saw inside, and one of the last things I heard from him after he came back, he is still looking for other people to teach him about himself, teach him his triggers, be there for him… He will always be looking for a mother, and he will always be disappointed in her until he starts looking inward.
A hard dream. H was in hospital again, I was 3 mo pregnant. We were a team again, working with his doctors, like in a large hotel suite. There was still the throwing things, feelings of being devalued when they weren't around...I posted about it on FB (the horror!) - the comments came in, good to get it in the open but you always say what happened, how do you feel?
I woke up relieved that if done no such thing and sad that we were not in fact a team anymore, even if it meant wrestling with some of this.
I feel sad so much of the time. Devastated at how and what happened that week.
Angry that he set me up during piecing when it was using.
Angry he demonized me, pushed me away, M really meant nothing
Disgusted that his top priority was getting under someone to get over me
Lost, confused over the past
Regretting the times I didn't leave for good
Hopeful still of his great awakening, that I can keep the good parts of him I loved
Scared about the future
Anxious about my upcoming gearing, dread seeing him
The overwhelming feeling is still disbelief and horror. None of it adds up or seems possible.
It sounds like it really, really hurts. I'm sorry.
Again, please don't beat yourself up on top of the abuse you took for not leaving sooner. You left. That took great courage and great love for yourself. Focus on that accomplishment. The sad reality is that most abuse victims stay and stay and stay. There are many, many reasons for this, including socialization, stigmatization, loss of self-esteem as part of the abuse, lack of options, fear that they will never be wanted again, etc. These are normal. These are not the victims fault. It is part of the abuse. Read that again: it is part of the abuse. As in, not the victim's fault. Society at large doesn't understand this, but those who have been abused and get help and those who help them do understand this.
Is there a women's support group for abuse survivors in your area? I think it would be very valuable to you in addition to the IC to be involved and get the support of other women who can understand and sympathize and help you through this. It is also very valuable to be able to turn your suffering into the basis of helping others in the same position. A lot of healing can come from that mutual supporting and nurturing. You IC can help you find one or at least point you in the right direction to look.
A divorce support group can be a mixed bag and is not really a substitute, as you want women-only at this point (yes there are supportive men, but you won't be able to open up if there is a man in the group the way you can if there isn't, no matter how supportive he is - and there is the whole unhealthy attraction/relationships in that setting that you want to avoid at this point - a nurturing, caring man right now would be too tempting right now & you aren't ready). You also may find both men & women in those groups who don't understand why you didn't leave, which you don't need right now. And, it just won't have the same potential for mutual nurture and support and healing that an abuse survivor group has.
Unfortunately, you're going to have more dreams like this for a while, but they will become fewer and far between, and have less power over you. There still may be a doozy that grabs you even after long time. This is normal too. Just get in the habit after one of having a ritual or routine that gives you some extra care. It is a good sign that you reached out here to share, as that shows you have some good natural instincts to care for yourself. Just come up with something that allows you to take care of the pain when it comes up. Something that allows you to give comfort to yourself and that hurt part of yourself.
I'm also going to recommend two books for you. They aren't on abuse, I'll leave that to your IC. The first is Kristen Neff's book Self-Compassion. She is the leading researcher on how building self-compassion is a healthier thing to build compared to trying to build self-esteem. Self-esteem will grow out of self-compassion, but self-esteem can lead to us being harder on ourselves. She has solid evidence and explains it in an accessible way, but goes beyond to talk about how actually to go about building self-compassion.
The second book may be for a bit down the road, but it is titled Too Good for Her Own Good, by Bepko & Krestan. It is an excellent discussion based on years of clinical practice with women of how most women are socialized in ways that don't allow them to see how they are making themselves or allowing themselves to be miserable. I'd hold off a little bit until you've had some time to get situated in your healing process (maybe a few months), but it will both help you understand why what happened is not your fault and how to make sure that you are addressing some of the social-cultural causes that lead women into treating themselves unfairly and allowing themselves to live a life that doesn't attend to their needs and happiness.
In the meantime, I hope your pain subsides a bit today and you can find something beautiful and wonderful about life and yourself to enjoy!
Zelda
Abuse is tough and especially if you are still addicted. Very difficult to break free.
Every day is a struggle to just get up and go, some days are better than others.this whole thing has aged me, I am tired. I struggle to pay the bills, credit cards, debts, I am really having a rough time. I eat far too much, exercise too little and work too much. I am losing my hair and sleep is better. I had boils and sores. My body is unhappy and my soul is hurt. It is worse than before we S, much worse and I have no idea why.
I will not give in, nor let this awfulness destroy me. These sitches need extra help, everything you can throw at it. It makes no sense alternating between beating yourself up and then wanting to scream with it. But I accept that is how it is.
Know this there is nothing wrong with you, you didn't deserve this, you didn't select it, you were targeted by an abuser.
You got free, that is not the norm, my abuse counsellor told me only the minority of abused women break free of their own accord. Many get hoovered back in again. Already you are beating the odds. I will not go back to that abusive sitch, no matter what. I played my MP3 yesterday, just to remind me.
There are days I can get on and days I just get by. Today was one of those days. No reason just was.
I am sure you understand the dynamic, and truly targets need ICs who understand the abuse dynamic. That made a big difference, plus the Freedom Program. My Gamanon also makes a difference too.
I think a change of IC may assist you and a group which assists targets may also help too. Z this is part of the process, sometimes I feel like an alien in this world, like I no longer fit any more. Invisible. It's just thoughts and it goes again.
The abuse was severe and PTSI doesn't do it justice that defines a single trauma whereas this is continual cycling. Trauma requires deep healing. It will heal. I refuse to be disordered with it.
We say it all the time, detach, detach, detach. It will ease, of course it will, in time, it will take time. Take extraordinary care of your health.
Peace, kindness and love to you
V
Wow V, you really are having a rough (rough doesn't seem to cut it) time.
Parts of the brain get wired in ways that make normal experiences of pleasure, ability to connect & relate to others, and trust difficult. And we know that there is a intimate link to the rest of the body now. So (& I suspect w/ your therapy you know this, but it might help Z & others to bring it up), your experiences are unfortunately not uncommon w/ severe trauma from abuse.
Have you read The Body Keeps Score by van der Kolk? One of the more common treatments for PTSD, especially abuse victims, has been yoga. I know it sounds strange, but its technique of focusing deeply on different parts of the body through movement has been shown to be very helpful in many cases.
Back to Z, I want to underscore both her warning about the draw of returning, the need for all the help you can surround yourself with, & that you are a minority & need to appreciate that you therefore need to not see yourself as bad or responsible but as strong and courageous for this accomplishment in the midst of an abusive situation. In abusive relationships there is a kind of brain washing that goes on. It really does rewire your brain in order to allow the abuse relationship continue. This is one of the big differences between relationships where there is mild and occasional abusive behavior and a really abusive relationship. There are all sorts of behaviors that abusers get really good at deploying to allow them to continue their abuse with their victim. Since you've read V's great abuse thread, you are seeing the range of behaviors that are deployed. They aren't just changing your behavior, they are changing your brain wiring.
Now, before you panic that your are permanently screwed up because of this, the brain is incredibly plastic and can be rewired in healthy ways. Good therapy helps. Meditation & mindfulness training can help (I still think without some of the psychological insights of Buddhism they are missing their full impact, but even the secular versions that have been derived from Buddhism still are good). Yoga and other body movement therapy can help.
Keep strong.
Z and asitis
I want my wonderful insightful brave Z to know, that which she is feeling is absolutely typical and on cue. In addition I decided to be absolutely open about this, it isn't helping anyone if this is seen as easy or smooth as if there is one easy magic answer to healing. Others read these posts are lurking sometimes, and to make the journey look easy or smooth would be truly inauthentic and create expectations that can't be met.
It's raw and it's real. The nightmares are tanggible and also part of healing, if I remember them I will describe. Each sitch is different but the abuse trauma is damaging, and the separation from self is fractured and hurtful. Like pendulum effect it varies daily.
It makes us fragile and human with our frailties and strengths. Today was a better day even though the sun shone only briefly.
Today I coped much better, you can expect some days like these but tomorrow is tomorrow.
Thank you for the support, I have ordered the book you mentioned. Z, I am not intending to hijack and I want to share that everything that you feel and think is valid for you. The pain is real and the cut deep, but it's ok, your spirit is helping you grow and learn. Let each day come as it will, just one day at a time.
V
Dearest Zelda,
Please hang in there. I will devote a prayer to you now.
Bob
I do not believe my husband is MLC, I strongly believehe has borderline mental health issues, on top of pain medication.
This was always a toxic and abusive marriage, but because he was so gentle and deep and caring at times, I excused a lot.
I'm so sorry to hear this! Mental health issues are extremely difficult to deal with in a WAS, the DB'ing techniques are based on a WAS that has left due to very real issues in the M that eventually drove them away and DB'ing teaches the LBS how to change those issues and go through self-improvement to try and attract the WAS back again. But when you're dealing with an abusive mentally ill person it's more about protecting yourself then trying to bring them back. Your H would need a lot of counseling before he could ever hope to have a solid, meaningful relationship again with you or anyone else. But if he's like most abusers he probably shuns counseling, is that the case? Most of the time they think everyone around them is at fault, they have a lot of difficulty accepting responsibility. My dad is an extremely abusive narcissist and at his age now (80) I've just resigned myself to the fact that he'll go to the grave that way. Anyway I wish you the best and hope these forums are helping you through what is no doubt a very difficult time in your life!
Hello everyone, thank you for the support.
V, I am thinking with you, the body thrives on stress to do what has to be done. It knows when it can relax, and sometimes these are the times we suddenly become ill with the cold we've been pushing off. I think our situations are like this. The body is finally de-stressing deeply and that stress has been holding you pinned together I believe. Flushing toxins. You'll be ok. My IC gave me a chart of what grief often looks like, at first there is a trauma - sharp down. And then there is the honeymoon period, when we are lifted by our communities, the great big swell of support, up and up we go, the courage, the energy...and then it is a long way down when there is nothing new to say and we must just deal with it. Very slowly the ups start coming, two up, one down, three up, 1/2 down, four up, one down, no rhyme or reason. I believe you're probably very good at letting life flow through you and you will process it as quickly as it is possible I think.
Asitis, are you a psychologist? No sarcasm, but you seem to write from a place of practice. Thank you for your helpful words.
Bob, thanks for the prayer. I am in fact doing a bit better.
Today I made a different kind of list. I noticed that in my journaling I was writing to myself, not as myself. A lot of "you." I decided to write a different kind of list, as "I." As in, "I want to be divorced, because..." So much of my mental energy had been on trying to figure out him, why he didn't want to address his stuff, why I wasn't good enough any more...why I should be at peace, blah blah blah.
But first, I had a revelation.
The struggle in trying to make sense of it all has been in trying to understand if he is systematic or if the abuse came from what I am more and more certain is borderline personality disorder. Here is another piece of the puzzle. A while ago V had written about our 'parts' different parts of us...well, I think what I've realized goes beyond normal?
I mapped out his different voices, the usual one - kindly, gentle, inquiring, loving. Him in his most authentic, relaxed and non-threatened state. Mostly would come out around others, me in the beginning.
The full of bravado phone voice used for waitresses, making positive impressions on people, mostly strangers, like Wolf of Wall St. Full of confidence, round, fake laughter.
The voice that was father knows best which really crawled up my skin, he used it with me when talking down to me, or psychoanalyzing, directing the conversation when he thought he was in control and I was too worn out to care any longer. The manipulator couched in the father voice, it was twisty, lots of intelligent sounding things that really made no sense. Or spoke as though he was the only one with a handle on the truth patiently explaining to a little kid.
The creep voice. This was the voice where I think his darkest sides came out, and was also most honest. That family reunion, when he played videos about bipoloar, and other such disorders and I asked him what he was watching, the creep voice said, "I'm just trying to figure out who I am, baby." This was days after he told me to F other men if I wanted to have kids. He never really called me baby ever, either, that stood out. The creep voice also said, "I'm not trying to divorce you Just Yet," back when he blocked phone calls. The creep voice came out while we were waiting for our first MC appointment, and he remarked upon a student I had who had stabbed people, "Z, what do you expect when people don't get the help they need? These things happen." Or when he came home to piece, the creep voice said, after I expressed something, "You know, I was just thinking about a guillotine I could make myself, my little head laying in a little cloth lined basket, wouldn't that be cute?" The eye contact was intense and it was snarling, nasal-y.
The child's voice - it was the one constantly on about needing people, not having needs met. Gentle and sad and helpless. It would most often say, "I don't know. I can't." It was the self defeating voice. Wounded, it would talk about suicide whenever I brought up my needs. Lots of crying.
I heard them all that day in the cafe, over that period we talked. He shifted constantly. I couldn't keep up.
So back to the journal today, why I want to be divorced.
-If he didn't cheat, it wasn't for lack of trying. I have that proof.
-Violence, mental and emotional abuses, whether reactive/systematic, none of it half way normal or how I want to live out my years
-He doesn't want to be here, why do I want to chase someone like this, especially if he doesn't value me? I don't. I am worth so much more.
-He's not interested in change. Told me several times he wasn't interested in looking at anything or reflecting about us. Fine.
-Obviously we don't have the same values or goals.
-What if he is getting counseling and lives his life happily ever after? All I have to do is think about how he actually spent his time in the sessions I attended. Was childlike, non assertive, avoidant and preferred to talk about Yankees. If pressed, went into the "I...don't...know?" Lot of 'uptalk' to his therapist. Therapist never heard father knows best or the creep. Therapist heard the wondering child, sad and clueless.
-There were good times, but it's not my job to rescue the man that gave me the good times. If that man is still in there, he needs to figure his own life out. If he comes back, he can build the bridge and then we can cross it. But, I have to have enough self respect not to lay out the red carpet for him after what he's done.
-Realistically, I want a divorce because trust is destroyed. I would be on pins and needles for months if not years waiting for the other shoe to drop if he were to come back to me - and in all likelihood, it would drop.
I have made a good effort today to sit with reality and my anger over the lies and deceits. I have not given as much thought to if he really wants to be divorced or if he is hurting or blah blah blah.
That is an important insight Z.
I noticed when I wanted to analyse WH, I referred to myself as V. v thought, WH did this to V. Distancing, disbelieving, rationalising, as I analysed my writing I noticed this and I saw myself in the first person.
I learned the first second and third position stance. I have taught myself this and to move between them, at first I had to have two chairs, hard objects to sit on and I sat in them to do this, moving from chair to chair to standing by a wall or behind curtains peeping out.
There is me (position 1/ armchair) then the other (position 2/ dining chair) then position 3 (fly on the wall). I even had position 4 (spider watching fly on the wall).
So I am me in my armchair, if I want to see how the other is reacting I go sit in the dining chair, then if I want an impartial view I go to the fly on the wall by the curtains.
All three positions are important I think. I was detached but in position 3, and I referred to myself as V, position 1 was very painful to occupy. Position 2 almost impossible. The useful thing about this is that from position 1 you are not analysing position 2 or 3. By going to the others position and the observer fly, you are being them. If that makes sense?
Now I do this in my mind, it's more useful than endlessly looping.
Can I give you an example?
Today a member of my staff said that they needed my help but I seemed to help clients but not her. It was a personal matter for her not a business issue.
From my perspective 1, she had not analysed her expenses and the data wasn't there for her form and I had said so. From her perspective 2 she felt I could tell her how to do it and set up her spreadsheet, which was confusing her. From the fly on the wall 3, I could see that it was quickest to apologise (me) for being unavailable to her, validate her frustration, find a client spreadsheet she could cut and paste and save to her directory. Fill out the bits in pencil with her and show her where the other figures came from. Took 15 mins.
I can do the positions now very quickly. Did not take long to learn it.
If you would like to try then practice this on the board, for example there is position 1 say Newbie1 then position 2 Newbie1 WH, and then there is position 3, Wonderful Wonka, Clever Cadet, Smashing Starsky, Sensitive Sandi, etc. then even position 4, MrBond giving Starsky post a thumbs up.
I think that you are sitting in position 1 Z analysing position 2 WH (most of the time this means too much assumptions) rather than knowing position 1 (your own). I am not suggesting you sit in position 2 WH seat for long in an abuse sitch, but position 3 might be handy.
Sorry this sounds a little Farscape, somewhat rainbow tummy projecting! You will think I am a batty English woman when I tell you I have advisers and support positions around the chairs too. Even angels and Devilettes. I see Jims WW PF as standing behind position 2 chair! The mind is running riot sometimes.
V
I don't think I have the energy or organization for chairs, V!
I think I've been trying to climb into his chair, and see what he saw, far too long. And then journaling, writing letters to myself as a fly on the wall/higher power version of myself. I haven't been seeing this through my eyes nearly enough.
But yes, as soon as I allowed myself to not just observe feelings but to feel them first person - I've given a lot less thought to what the hell is wrong with him. Doesn't matter, I don't care. The bull is not longer running through my China shop, and that's the important thing.
Thank you for absolutely everything, V.
Therapist in training who has had an interest in the topic for a while before taking the plunge. Obviously, I've also got a very strong incentive for employing that background to learn everything I can about M, gender roles, etc. Along the way, I've had training on spouse/R abuse, and one of the areas I've been thinking about working in is w/ male abusers. An underserved area that needs to be addressed if we are to cut down on the abuse.
All that said, please don't view me as a therapist. First, I'm not yet. Second, I'm not sitting down in the appropriate setting to gather the necessary info & develop the kind of relationship that is appropriate to giving that level of advise. Just want to err on the side of caution so that nobody takes what I say as if.
And V isn't a therapist, but in this area, I definitely defer to her. As someone who knows a good deal about this, I can tell you V knows her stuff and has a perspective and guidance that is hard to beat. I know she'll probably say something humble about just learning herself, but aren't we all & she has learned a lot through both educating herself and the school of hard knocks.
V, I think your realistic warning is the correct approach, as to sugar coat it leaves others thinking there is something wrong with them when the struggle, as most really, really do. Still, it takes a lot to put your vulnerability out like that for others, and I really appreciate both your pain and the great help you are to others.
Some days...
I just recovered from a huge bout of bawling my eyes out over the smallest of things. A little gadget that used to be linked to a shared account under STBX name apparently can't be transferred into my own account without his signed notarization.
I felt the mounting aggravation on call with customer service. Trying not to tear their heads off about it. And then cried my eyes out when I hung up. Because
It is upsetting I can't/won't contact him about things like this. I'm afraid to have contact because it is just so upsetting when I do. It's just not worth it. And this is the same feeling of me dreading running into him and dreading seeing him at the hearing.
This is more upsetting because, well you guys know...our spouses were the people we depended on, our best friends...it is just such a glaring change and it dredges up all the rest of the hurt.
He used to take care of me in this small way. Doesn't now. Feelings of abandonment.
I want to throw this little gadget across the room.
It shouldn't be a big deal. It is a small cost to replace it, and not all that difficult.
I'm crying all over typing this. Why I feel so unbalanced some days. This is the stupidest thing (rationally) to be upset over. So, if there are any lurkers, no, it's not easy.
Zelda, sorry if that felt like a gut punch. I wish I could give you a real hug...but this will have to do (((Zelda)))
I hope that you can embrace this challenge to take a deep breath and go get a new device and make it your own, research and find the thing that suits YOU best.
This will be the next step to your independence from the reminders of what was instead of what can and will be the bright future that is YOU!!!
Thanks, Zephyr. After the storm passed, I realized I wasn't crying about the little gadget. Just everything. And there is calm before and after storms. Hugs back at you.
Had a similar issue with the electric people, wouldn't talk to me so I switched providers and thought if there is anything owing he can pay it. But I won't want the hassle I will pay the bill then deduct 50% from the small balance I owe him or if he ends up owing me the other way around I will write it off.
Z this is just one more small pain, each one you tackle and grieve about is one less garbage piece you carry. It is grief, the next step after anger is sadness, one more step to acceptance.
Let it flow Z, it is cleansing. Go get a new widget and ceremonial tip the other one and do horrible things, or return it to the company or both.
Dawn described on my thread how she had taken all of the anniversary, Valentine and other cards she had kept and then discarded and cleansed through clearing. This cleansing tactic works for me too. I shredded and burned the ILY cards and I have the ashes of those and I am spreading these in the important places for me. Some ashes are being put on his golf course (where we married), the flat in Brighton in the garden and some will go to Madiera.
I googled a ceremonial cleansing and converted this to this ritual.
I have yet to decide what to do with my wedding photos. But I shall remove them to an old drive then I will see in due course, at some stage that is another pain to face.
I will bear it and move forward in my life with the baggage gone.
WH bought me a stereo for Xmas, so I put it in his stuff. He paid for it from our joint account. Hmmmmmm I discovered that recently. So I have no stereo in Brighton, I am going to buy another one from eBay, a fantastic second hand one. The blu ray player he bought I gave him back. I will have a new one.
There are two old TVs here from WH old home I will replace them. He can have these back, I will find a way of doing it. Gone, gone, gone and there was little of real substance left. When H1 died, I made a treasure box of his things, I brought these out and have put the cards he gave me in my personal treasure box instead of WHs. I have been loved, they set next to my aged Ps wonderful recent letters. Truly great love. They are signs of my love and my great blessings in my life.
Z I would like you to beautifully hand write your love letter to Z, which was an amazing and spiritual letter at the end of the last thread and start your recovery treasure box. Keepsakes of your greatest love, for yourself. Find a beautiful silk handcherchief and collect your tears, they are tears of great cleansing and to be treasured.
Peace
V
Wow V, you said what I was trying to...very concise. I read so much of what you write and I am always appreciative of the help you give to so many on this site.
Zelda, I want to thank you for the time you spend typing me a reply on my thread. I owe you a complete and honest response. I have been thinking hard about your perspective and trying to sort out the whats and hows of it...so much to consider. Biggest is Am I ready and is she ready... I just don't know yet.
You guys are absolutely amazing!
Sorry you are struggling with this kind of stupid obstacle. In the U.S. we would just have to show the divorce order approved by the courts, although that doesn't mean there are still stupid rules companies have that haven't recognized the reality of D.
I know you are feeling abandoned by the loss of all those little things that H used to do. Most of us become mutually dependent on our S through a division of labor. Try to look at this as an adventure in making for a self-reliant Z who never has to feel dependent again. She is strong and joins with another person from that sense of strength because they are a good person for her to be with, & she knows she will never surrender that sense of empowerment. Partner will never be able to look down on her as incompetent or belittle her out of some sense of superiority. No men just looking to have a woman they can take care of and control. Rs are still work, but that sounds a lot more healthy & enjoyable to me. How about you?
Thanks, Zephyr, I look forward to it. And thank you Vanilla just for understanding...
Asitis, here's the thing: (as if there is only one)
I am fiercely independent. It has been the common feedback among all of my exes, that I just didn't let them help in a certain sense...I am tough, fair, and have spent over ten years coaching teen, collegiate and masters athletes. I have no problem speaking my mind and no one would have ever said I was anything but empowered or self-reliant. I worked in top level management and had what I think was a good knack for saying what needed to be said and delivering it straight and gently as possible. Point is, your post looks like it assumes that I am an opposite creature. This has been one of the hardest things, not for friends, but knowing that many of our acquaintances saw me as domineering, somewhat unemotional...and as he's run around selectively throwing his pity party to those that didn't know me well, of course, who would see quiet, soft spoken H as anything but the victim here? To those that know me well, he's just said he realized he has anger issues...or the accident really messed him up...or he still loves me. But to anyone who knew me superficially, I am manipulative, took advantage of him, didn't care about who he is, just what I wanted...
I identified my areas for growth last year - better listener, digesting all of my feelings by myself instead of throwing them, less critical and judgmental. I've been working hard on all of it. To soften and become vulnerable. To practice empathy with absolutely everyone. I held to those changes like it was my job when he came back and his cruelty/apathy only seemed to increase.
In the back of my head at all junctures of struggle in my M, I took my H at his word that he didn't feel supported, that I was selfish...that he didn't feel like I cared about him. I felt that if there was any real potential for abuse it was probably on me tearing down his sense of self-love by rejecting him when I perceived him as irrational. By not accepting where he was in his recovery. By trying to life-coach him when he just needed a friend. Reminding him that I supported him financially and he hadn't a job in years, whenever he acted like he didn't need to do anything around the house or pull his weight in a tangible sense...Oh, the guilt I felt when he left the first time...
I look at it now and daily, I am mixed up. I still feel guilty sometimes, and it is very hard to feel like I let him down when all I wanted to do was see him happy...consistently. I feel devastated thinking that some other woman will be able to accomplish what I couldn't and enjoy the parts of him I loved so much.
Yes, I see his BPD traits everywhere in the past, pre-accident. And I don't think this is me saying, I am hurt and someone behaving as they don't love me obviously has a personality disorder...the way he treated me would also come out in flashes at my friends and family...something terribly odd, out of line, overly volatile every two weeks or so...and I take responsibility for my own emotional reactivity to it all. That didn't help. I was not the center of calm. I had trouble leaving him be, and pressured him to talk, make sense to me, reassure me...sometimes I'd scream in anger at the injustice of being left somewhere or seeing Mr. Hyde come out of no where for no reason...this went on from the beginning.
I also see that what he did was psychological abuse and undeniable physical intimidation throughout the years- threats of leaving the relationship at the drop of a hat, the jealousy, the pushing, the rages, the silent treatment, the general instability and threats of suicide...and yet I start thinking did I fail as a partner in some crucial way to create an environment like this?
Where is that strong independent part of me that says F*** IT. I didn't deserve this, ever.
Why do I still miss him and want to chase him for his love and reassurance? People that know me professionally, even socially at a distance would never ever believe this. I feel like I've shared too much with my closest friends sometimes, I feel like they look at me like I have two heads to want this kind of crazy back.
Requesting any and all 2x4s. Or a different point of view. I want to call him. Ask him if this is what he really wants.
We've had nothing but NC since that day in the cafe. I got some nasty texts back when I demanded he come get his things. When I texted to ask him why he wasn't signing all those weeks, "what do you care, it's just paperwork..." And then him telling the paralegal and my bestie that this is what I wanted/he was forced into filing.
I want to hope things could be different.
That this wasn't all what it looked like. Maybe I've exaggerated his actions and words and it was reactive to me, not abuse?
I want to believe that three months of counseling could make a difference, if he meant what he said. I don't know how he would have gotten there...that he was kicked out, that he didn't want this D...but maybe I could meet him there as a starting point, who cares who is right/wrong?
What if this is all a huge mistake?
The thing he told me about no intention of fidelity, the posts where he basically admitted cheating, he likely has a GF now...I used to think I would never be able to get past it but Idk.
It's not like he is all about a family...
No, it would make no rational sense to try to 'rescue' him through a phone call, I already sent a letter asking if he meant what he'd been saying...and that was dismissed.
Z
If you want to ring WH do so.
Now, what was your first reaction to that statement?
And your second?
V
1. Really?! (Anxiety)
2. Yeah? You think? (Hope)
Didn't mean to come across as thinking you were this weak, dependent creature. It makes more sense now that you explained it that you really dislike feeling helpless in even one area. Yes?
So is your answer because:
A. that you want to go back to WH
B. You want WH to come back to you
C. You would prefer to be in control of you, WH, your sitch and its unfamiliar
D. There is cognitive dissonance, the reality is different to your expectation
E. Something else, loss of your dream R, child, or another reason?
If you rang WH would his answer give you closure? Whether it was lets go round again, or Are you kidding me? Or would you need something more? A meeting? Would you keep on until you got the answer that fits?
V
V- b,c,d. Yes.
A- I think you nailed it for me. Helpless. It is terrifying. My biggest trigger is being lost, not making sense of directions, electronics, basic mechanics...any of it is liable to send me into fits of anger where I know it's no ones fault, but I lash out anyway. My earliest nightmares, 4/5 yo, being in a car and not knowing how to drive it. Angrily throwing shoes across the room bc I couldn't lace them and then spending hours teaching myself. UN-fixing things as a child/teen I'd begrudgingly accepted help for, just to prove I could do it by myself, fix it, get it, whatever. Homework help, anything met with frustration and impatience, anger spilling everywhere. Hurling myself down a black diamond slope full of moguls for over eight hours because I could see where I was messing up but couldn't seem to get my body to react how I needed. Angrily sulking on the lifts back up with my bf who was trying to lighten the mood. The upside to all this is I am accomplished as
An athlete, musician, artist, have fixed plumbing and ac units and that level of 'focus' has generally served me well in gettin it done.
I've never understood why I get so so so upset at being lost. I did this in Paris and seethed for over 20 minutes at no one in particular. After the storm I can barely relate to the feeling, it seems silly.
Tonight I embarassed myself at a family dinner. My uncle said something flippant that landed like a lead balloon. My aunt was asking questions of me that I had no interest in, just stupid stuff. My mom was fidgeting nervously beside me. I was trying to cut everyone short, I could feel tears is been holding down all afternoon. My uncle asked if I was still working in project x/livelihood...my curt no..,I broke eye contact and it just felt relentless and I said to them all, "you know what would be great, if we can talk about anything else besides me, if you will all please quit staring at me." I excused myself and went to the bathroom and cried it out. In an effing restaurant. I felt my head coming apart in the stall, total loss of reality, everything g seemed so tragic, like an overtired baby.
I've caught myself doing this before, getting defensive and curt with polite conversation and small talk that feels intrusive and boring all at the same time. I get profoundly annoyed to the point of rudeness. This is my problem. It's only when I'm in a bad place that im like this though where I just want to be a fly on the walk and yet I go do the things and see the people.
I just feel like gears are slipping in a bad way. My head is a turbulent mess, I'm crying more these days than at any other time, I feel like STBX knew what he was talking about, me just an unhappy petson.
V, that's it - I have a hard time letting go of anything until I feel I've fixed it, mastered it, or sculpted it the way it is in my mind and it needs to be. My female bestie has joked with me I have an idiot savant level of focus and tenacity. Maybe that is what you are getting at -
yes, I would keep on until I got the answer I wanted- that answer being STBX sand I finally perfecting our communication so no more buttons, I could talk with him in a way he'd trust and id be that better listener for him, that none of the events from that night ever hsppened, not the way I thought. He wasn't smirking, it was just in my imagination.
Yes, maybe 'e' too. The dreams are hard to give up.
IDk what keeps me from keeping on. I dread contact bc of anxiety, his responses and nastiness are so hurtful. I know rationally this is for the best and very little stands to change.
But it feels like a daily war, that rationsl side vs what I've been calling the emotional side - which maybe Is just my unwilling to let it go side. Unwilling to have failed. Emotionally, I do miss him. But that's a deep tangle of resentment and hurt, too.
OK Z, deep breaths. You think you embarrassed yourself in a restaurant in front of your family. Family probably thinking poor Z has had it rough & is allowed to breakdown a bit - lots of sympathy and compassion (OK, maybe too optimistic, but maybe not too much). So, you start judging yourself using your imagination about them judging you. See the mismatch yet?
Z needs to show herself some damn compassion. She's been through a hell of a lot. Z needs to not expect to be 100% in control of herself. She is human and under a lot of stress. Z needs to stop imagining that people are judging her harshly, and she needs to stop worrying about it if they do.
Where do you think this drive to be able to control everything, including yourself come from? Not fidgiting mother? Definitely something to explore.
[I'm not going to state my guess, but you can probably figure where I'm headed & its impact on your R w/ XH?]
Now a book recommendation: Kristen Neff,
Self-Compassion. Highly recommend for you (really for everyone).
Know that while I'm not a control freak, I definitely have the fix it gene/socialization combo, hate being judged, and really have had to wrestle w/ self-criticism & needing to be good enough. So, I have a lot of first hand experience on how it can really muck up an R & leave one w/ drive to go back and fix the damage relationship and win back the good judgment of my spouse. You can't start to deal w/ that until you start to show yourself some compassion, some forgiveness for being merely human, and see where that is coming from and how much harm it is doing to you and your Rs. So, please forgive yourself for your supposed falling apart in front of your family in a restaurant (did the uncle even notice?
), and give yourself a good dose of Z is doing really, really well under the circumstances and console yourself the way you would a close friend.
And, for goodness sake don't call the guy and wonder if this is what he really wanted. Let the damn dust settle.
Yes Z, that is what I am saying. I too suffer from Hyperfocus, the single minded persuit that locks everything out. I can spend hours on insignificant things until I master them.
So now let's ask why. Why does Z need that level of control?
Keeps on going like the terminator until the end. Is it helping you achieve anything worth while?
If at the very end despite all advice and your own reluctance you are still going to contact WH in a call, then be safe if and when you do so. Do so in the presence of your IC, but consider what exactly would close the deal for you?
Let's dig deeper, this fear of failure, is it in all things?
Were you parents critical of you, where dd these feelings originate? You are only worthwhile because of that which you do not because of you are? This is the difference between self esteem and self compassion.
Worth is not about what you do, perfectly or not, otherwise you perform well and you have high self esteem, perform badly and its low. That is the road to destruction, no one can do everything to that standard. Hence self esteem isn't a great measure of self worth. This is an enormous sword of Damocles.
The truth is that if you link your self worth to what you do rather than who you are then you will tread this road forever. Because it just isn't feasible to be worthy under those circumstances. The worth of a person is in who they are, to do justice to that Z you can instead aspire to self compassion. Truly Self Compassion is the way we measure ourselves. Otherwise the fear of failure will rule your life, you will always need to perform to have value in your own eyes.
So let's look at success, what does success mean to you?
Can you make the journey alone a success? Can you reframe this to find self compassion?
If I thought that by ringing WH you would get closure then I would be the first to say go do it.
Can I also ask Z, if I told you I wanted to ring my WH to see if reconciliation were possible what would you tell me?
V
V, no I would not advise you to call a man up I see as soulless and angry And lost. I must keep my STBX's smile and vulnerability, his living sides out of my own mind. Come face to face with memories of a dog in my lap shaking, being shut out, cussed out, intimidated, psychoanalyzed, abandoned.
Asitis, thank you. Raised by an alcoholic narcissist that was a cross between Donald Trump and crazy uncle Rico from Napolean Dynamite. He was gifted, though. Rolled off logs, made lots of money. Army Ranger, helicopter pilot, musician, very intelligent and successful. I got random doses of compassion, constant criticism, though nearly all constructive when sober. Abuse was another matter even obvious to me as a child when he was drunk. I don't think I ever internalized it like it was my fault. Just thought he could get better. I'll take your advice and stock up my reading list.
I have had a pretty good couple of days. At least compared to the last week. My hearing is about two weeks away. There have been many more hours I have seen my husband a little more objectively than I have been. Looking at him in "reality "makes me feel like I was under a spell of my own doing for a long time. Lots of activity and GAL these past couple of days.
V, I have taken one of your mantras, "I will not be abused" and used it like the rubber band snapping trick to deal with obsessive thoughts. So whenever I catch my heart missing him, mourning, thinking of reconciling, I say it. And I think up a scene that represents the abuse, and i feel my feelings from those awful moments, and I put it away. I fear that I am unfairly color in the past, but it will get me through. It is very difficult right now to let the good times and the bad times exist in the same space next to each other. The whole big round reality to be at peace with. Every once in a while I can do it; but it is fleeting.
I have had two very rattling dreams.
1. STBX and I were talking about reconciling. My mother and my aunt were with me, and we are headed over to his house, our old one, to meet for breakfast. He was in the shower, and I called out to him asking if I could go look for something I thought I had left. I found a drawer full of another woman's shoes and clothing instead. I screamed and tour shoes to bits and pieces. Repeatedly pressured him to tell me who she was and how long she had been there. He deflected, deflected, defkected. I woke up shaken, but as I shower that morning I realized that even if we were to talk about reconciling, these are the feelings I would have to deal with. I know from reading his posts online, the ones he thought were anonymous, he is had a mind toward sleeping with other women, getting his emo needs met by them for a long time. To reconcile, I would have to come face-to-face with the knowledge that I wasn't what he wanted. Aside from the abuse issues, I would have to trust that he wasn't still wondering about other fish out in the sea. It was hard enough when he came back to "piece" and he had only been hinting at the idea that other people might make us happier. I read things since our split I wish I hadn't. And he told me he had no interest in Fidelity after separated. So it was a beneficial dream, because I've barely been thinking about that aspect of things in all my fantasies of somehow making this work.
2. A strange dream this morning, where he was alternately himself, and a very dear ex-boyfriend from years and years ago. I don't remember the details as well. I do know I was screaming at him out of anger about how he set me up. All the crap about I love you, trust me, only to turn violent when the big check was in reach. He blew me off in the dream as he'd done IRL.
In both dreams, I was absolutely enraged. I think I need to reconize that my own anger and lack of trust would be just as big of an obstacle to US reconciling as his abusive, childish tendencies. DR teaches us that we have to forgive in order to be able to move forward, but I think I will be in a healthier place right now holding some of that anger and mistrust in a place where it belongs. Every time I try to see past it, I and up feeling sorry for him and thinking this can work out again.
I think that the trauma, hurt, anger, and feelings of horror and disbelief are well-deserved and I need to continue to feel them as primary in order to heal. I know that is counterintuitive to every bit of New Age wisdom. But I do know when I sit in these feelings, rather than setting them aside, I really don't give a rats ass what he thinks or what is wrong with him. The question is no longer, "is this what my husband really wants? " The question is squarely, "is this what I want anymore? " I just know that I am glad I will not be married any longer to him. And that is the point of healing where I need to get to. Consistently anyway.
I am going to discuss forgiveness. In my opinion when a great wrong is done, when we are abused, deliberately hurt and damaged. Targeted. We have a choice not to forgive and it is a valid choice. We need not forgive, it isn't mandated.
I believe this, some sins are unforgivable.
Having said that, the element which is destructive is that which creates resentment and revenge. I wish my WH well, I hope he has everything to make him whole. I fear he won't but I want that for him. I don't want revenge, I would prefer fairness and justice.
There is enormous trauma in my world and the origin is WH. I do not forgive him but I will not be bitter.
I still say "I will not be abused" to myself. I find it strong and healing.
The dreams I have are lucid too, sometimes slightly comic but hurtful and embedded in trauma. The psychologist I saw said trauma dreams are better than the flashbacks. I have had those too, flashbacks, space outs and mild hallucinations. The dreams are at least more containable even if uncomfortable.
V
V, thank you for this post. It makes much more sense to my heart.
Trying to see the abnormal as normal or justified or forgive-able has kept me questioning myself and stuck here. It's one of the reasons I wanted our thread on abuse. Trying to hold to core foundations. My experience must be validated before his. Abuse is abuse, and I will not be abused. I didn't cause it and I can't change it. I gave him the opportunity to address it three times and he declined. Therefore I must be grateful for a simple divorce, granted in two weeks.
Z
If you want to explore forgiveness then there are a couple of books I can recommend, the first is by Jeanne Safer forgive and not forgive and of course there is Scott Pecks book on evil, People of the Lie. Ironically both books were written in the same era.
The premise is, it isn't our job to forgive, only the spirit can forgive. Forgiveness requires that the one requiring forgiveness is asking and atoning for forgiveness and then we can choose or be chosen to become a channel for it. Forgiveness requires that transgressors request and targets channel.
There is no obligation on me to forgive WH, the spirit requires that I request forgiveness for my transgression, that of screaming banshee, neglect, and any harm to others through the damage WH did through me. It requires I advise at least one other person and that I atone.
As a result of my weaknesses I do not blame WH for his actions, I do not condone or agree, but I let go of my anger and eventually my hurt and just merely walk away. Leaving only love behind and my best prayers that he finds peace. That may mean asking forgiveness and atoning, in which case I am likely to forgive. The higher spirit will allow that.
To forgive without the full process is to enable the harm. If we can forgive then that is our gift to the higher spirit. It is our right but not our obligation.
I do not condemn after all I have my faults and that is not my role either, that is the spirits role.
Ultimately the higher spirit will bring the overdrawn account to a closure on behalf of every one of us. I ask is the abuser, compulsive, wayward, or MLC happy in their life, maybe, sometimes. There is an emptiness in their soul which is temporarily filled with activity, substances and distraction. I think on waking they cannot but see the hole which needs to be filled. As fast as it's filled it leaks, like a bath with no plug, the tap must be forever full on to stay partially full.
I like 12 steps as a process and I have a great admiration for DB which is about personal growth, becoming through adversity and developing into the best we can be. It is a process beyond repairing M or fending off D, it includes it but is not wholly that. It is because of the spirit here which in continuum applies those principles.
It is my hypothesis that those who cause damage fall into three camps, those that can because of situations and those that do deliberately who are in parlance evil. I place myself in the third and last camp, a reactor, the damage done was mainly to myself, I doubt WH was damaged by screaming banshee, I think it amused him to press those buttons. None the less the screaming banshee damaged others in my life, my inability to perform at work, my poor performance as a friend etc. besides the pain for glam sis and aged pa.
This is my own unique analysis on it and I am testing my hypothesis and so far it holds.
Those who do not awake and follow their journey who believe it is finished when the D paper is signed miss something important, they miss their spiritual journey to self, and to healing. I struggle with healing, a full mechanism has not yet been uncovered. I leave my love and project it that is enough to have loved, even though that may be unwanted, that is mine to give.
It seems unchristian to decide that forgiveness is not my job. In essence it is about control, I have control over only me, to forgive someone who does not request or want forgiveness is like trying to hold them accountable and tying them to you in deed. It creates a debt, makes me the burden of a creditor, gives me baggage. It is not my role to forgive nor to condemn, it is my role to heal and to let the spirit do its work for others.
A friend did me a great damage many years ago, quite deliberately, a financial damage in business, after 15 years I received a letter with a cheque and a short note which read " if you can forgive me, that's good and if you don't want this recompense then please donate it as you chose. I have been saddened by my choice and have not yet forgiven myself".
I banked the cheque and wrote one for Plan International, I chose a child in my friends name to sponsor for 12 years and I let her receive the information about the sponsored child for 12 years. I hope it brought her peace, at some point in those 12 years a glimmer of it. Otherwise I did not respond. I let the universe and higher power forgive, she had atoned.
I hope this explains my stance
V
V, as usual, makes some good points.
I'd add in cases of abuse, it is often enough just to work on forgiving yourself. All that self-criticism and feeling guilty for "allowing" the abuse, not loving yourself, etc. Until you feel you've been able to do that, you won't be able to truly forgive the abuser I suspect. If forgiveness for him comes as part of your process of working through your own issues, then it was the right thing at the right time. If not, it's not the right thing at that time or even the right thing for you. Not really something you try - esp. early on - but something that seems to be necessary at some point in the process (or not).
I also want to add that I'm really pleased to see the markedly better place you are in. Even when you are struggling with these kinds of things, you are in a much healthier place than a few weeks ago. You may not always feel like it, but you are doing great.
A friend did me a great damage many years ago, quite deliberately, a financial damage in business, after 15 years I received a letter with a cheque and a short note which read " if you can forgive me, that's good and if you don't want this recompense then please donate it as you chose. I have been saddened by my choice and have not yet forgiven myself".
I banked the cheque and wrote one for Plan International, I chose a child in my friends name to sponsor for 12 years and I let her receive the information about the sponsored child for 12 years. I hope it brought her peace, at some point in those 12 years a glimmer of it. Otherwise I did not respond. I let the universe and higher power forgive, she had atoned.
Absolutely beautiful and heart-warming.
V, and Asitis, thank you for talking through this bit about forgiveness.
My IC often asks how I got to a place of total detachment with my father, even tho he still calls and rants and is nasty on occasion. I told her, I just had enough of believing he could change. Saw it was impossible. Saw that I pitied him.
She looks at me like it is very obvious that I need to get there with my STBX, but romantic feelings I think add some complexity. And STBX was usually much more subtle except when he wasn't. I don't think I had enough volume of offenses. AND I was still getting good feelings, reinforcement (YAY, THIS is why we're together, aren't I happy right now!) from the R, which ceased a long time ago with my father.
Have I forgiven my father? I don't know. I don't think so. When he tries to tell me he has been my greatest supporter (not true in any one direction, PS, all the man has done since I was 15 was viciously drunkenly tear me down, no financial support either), I usually bite my tongue. Until he keeps on and he gets a good earful from me. Most of our 'conversations' are one sided anyway, I do make an effort to pick up the phone and let him go on, because at one time he was my very best friend when I was a little kid. And I still respect and love that part of him, and I feel that if by listening and pretending to be a daughter he thinks he loves so much, it eases any pain, then fine. Does my dog remember the day I take her to the dog park? Not really. But she's happy at the time and that counts. But he is mostly a very unfunny joke I've heard too many times and other than stoking anger - i think at the wounds I've not forgiven him for - he has zero affect on me.
In short, yes, I've been putting the cart before the horse in trying to forgive and understand STBX.
It is disrespectful to me to do so, when after that night, he sneered, he smirked, almost seemed excited at the damage he'd done...told me he didn't care to think about things, he didn't care to think how he'd hurt me, he didn't care to address his anger or temper and couldn't guarantee it wouldn't happen again, our marriage was over and he wanted to sleep around. A day after telling me how lucky he was and what a great future we were going to have.
He got what he wanted, I believe. Freedom from me and whatever misery he felt, PLUS a way to cry and claim he was kicked out of the house, as though he'd tried and tried to remedy this. Poor STBX, he really wanted his M to work out, what a sad song he sings...the day after he left the house we ran into each other. I watched him talking to a mutual friend, before he saw me, shrugging and shaking his head, her giving him one of those deep hugs of comfort...he certainly wasn't showing the face I'd seen the day before - I know I sound like a broken record, I still can't make sense out of what kind of man he must have been to play these tricks.
To your point, Asitis, who I was to fall for them...
And still I wonder, is it me that is messed up? Is he going about the rest of his life, kind and lovely now? I know it's not rational, but it's what keeps boiling under the surface.
It shouldn't matter. It shouldn't matter because I need to stay with my experience of that week, and the times before I should have never excused. My boundaries sinking lower and lower. The girl I was when I met him would have drawn the line a long time ago. And did. But I kept taking him back because he was tall, handsome, kind, and I felt more love in the 'good' times than I'd ever felt with any other partner.
So...not forgiving him means this to me - it was not ok to treat me like that. To lie to me, to use me, to play these selfish games. It was not ok to tell me all the ways
I was cruel (not letting his ex meet his emotional needs - "she's so much easier to talk to, Z. I can't explain it. Why do you have such a problem with this, you'd rather me suffer just because you can't be the friend I need?") It was not ok to leave me places and it is not ok with me that he was trying to sleep with me in one breath as he was telling me he wanted to date other people.
To forgive him for any of this - without his asking or atoning or even recognizing the hurt - it says that nothing wrong happened here. That it is ok he behaves this way toward me.
That is the problem. I always, always, forgave him, tried to see his side, talk it out. The times I didn't...he shrugged and seemed ok that our relationship was ending. And I couldn't stomach that so I would push me further out of the way to understand him and reconcile and make peace.
It is getting easier now. I no longer feel the desperation I'd been feeling. There are still times I cry and it's ok, they seem to be shorter storms and I don't hope for his call. I am having an easier time visualizing the hearing and walking out of it detached. I imagined he will not say anything unexpected or make a scene and it will be over quickly, simple dissolution.
I do struggle still with his face. Seeing it in pictures, remembering it. How not to look at him and see the loving, gentle, wonderful H I did for so many years. I still can't see him, and first see the raging, nasty or entirely aloof creature. I wish I could. Even his name, reading it written on paper, conjures good feelings and memories before the bad ones. I still feel so attached in this way. I would like to reverse all that, and look at him and see his face simply as a mask for what I really know lies beneath. But my tender little heart strings still see the man I would chase if he gave me the slightest reason.
I know from talking with & reading about other abuse survivors that it is incredibly painful and confusing. I also know I can't really know, as I haven't experienced it directly, so I don't want to diminish what you are feeling. Still, I want to answer some of your questions.
Is there something wrong with you? No. Absolutely. Not!!! Part of the reason abusers get away with it & the abused doesn't put a stop to it is largely a combination of brainwashing manipulation of the abuser & socialization by a culture that normalizes male privilege & aggression, female subordination and neediness and need to complete themselves by finding the appropriate man. Just think of all those stories in pop culture where women need to be rescued, are dependent, and are thankful that they have a strong, aggressive, domineering man who protects her from the other strong, aggressive, domineering, but not as nice man. Think about the role models in your parents & other relatives. What did they teach you about what the proper role of a woman is, especially about a good woman attends to the needs of her man. Even if intellectually you rejected that, it is almost certain you internalized some of that view.
The abuser exploits that socialization. The abuser is learns to get their needs met by manipulating the abused in a way that allows him to sustain that. This won't be the first abusive relationship he's been in, and very likely he learned at the knee of an established master. There is a lot of skill built up over time. The manipulation does re-wire neuropathways that contribute to the victim staying and struggling with all these confusing thoughts even after they've broken away. So, no it is not your fault.
Now does that mean that there isn't damage that needs to be addressed and healed? No. In a sense, there now is something that interferes with you leading a life of fulfilment and happiness. It is the lingering gift of the abuser. The good news is that the brain is surprisingly plastic, and those neuropathways can be rewired with therapy, the healthy support of others, and time.
So, give yourself a break on feeling confused & even a bit crazy. You aren't. You are recovering, and that will take work and time.
Be gentle on yourself and don't add self-blame to the pain you are already in.
And, thanks for all your help over on my thread. I appreciate it a lot.
I think (for a number of reasons in particular the first chapter) you would get a great deal from the Jeanne book on forgiveness. If I had the way to do it I would gift it to you.
There is an NLP technique which could help you with the visual aspects of your WH face. Ironically it's called reframing, it's very potent so be careful. there was a TV program with Paul McKenna It is on Utube I can change your life program 1, there is a woman who has obsessive thoughts about her ex. I am slightly disbelieving of it, well very, but it's fascinating stuff.
Asitis, love your posts
V
I do struggle still with his face.
Seeing it in pictures, remembering it.
How not to look at him and see the loving, gentle, wonderful H I did for so many years. I still can't see him, and first see the raging, nasty or entirely aloof creature. I wish I could.
Your concious mind wants to do this I think and your subconscious mind is holding the current programming.. The subconcious mind is a whole load of embedded programs so change that and the whole addiction sensation will change.
Even his name, reading it written on paper, conjures good feelings and memories before the bad ones. I still feel so attached in this way.
There is a belief embedded in this I think. Your WH has with your permission and behaviour trained you to feel this. Without disrespect (because my WH did the same) its classic Pavlov response, it's the way they target us by anchoring pleasant feelings in us by using certain triggers in this case WH name. By knowing the triggers then you can pattern interrupt the response.
I would like to reverse all that, and look at him and see his face simply as a mask for what I really know lies beneath.
You can chose to use your conscious mind to swap these images, there a number of techniques, including using projection, and superimposing one image over another.
But my tender little heart strings still see the man I would chase if he gave me the slightest reason.
Know this is your addiction talking.
You are getting there, now you see the mask, what would happen if your WH removed it? Can you let your mind do that? Can you identify your triggers?
V
V, let's see. I think we are getting somewhere because this is the difficult part that I believe is at the root of my struggle.
I simply am not sure that what I've seen and experienced is what it is.
Despite friends and family validating. It does help - to know that others firmly say no excuse. To hear others' tales of his dark side that came out after the accident, even publicly, people saying they saw it at board meetings and what have you. To hear our closest friends explaining the ways he lashed out at them even, having him tell my girlfriend to stay away from me...
V, here is where I think our H's ARE different. Yours was aggressive and abusive over nonsense. Mine was pleasant, aloof, okay with whatever I did or didn't do in my own space. He would even cite this in arguments if I complained at him - "Z, am I ever critical of you? You are the one unhappy with me all the time."
So, I do struggle with trying to see -
Was his a reactive abuse?
The time he pushed me off the dock - it was jealousy and ridiculous.
Strange, aggressive things he would say to me, the abandonment, physical intimidation - he never started anything, this is how he would react if he perceived criticism or disappointment. And not always. The hot points were conversations about career, our future - marriage and family, his medical case. Defensive aggressive. It's amazing I ever got married when I think of those fights. And the ones that were starting to develop over family. This is why I happen sometimes to think it was not simple abuse but personality disordered, borderline. I would get silent treatments or rages if I gave the slightest intimation that he was disappointing me or in the beginning, if he thought I was growing tired and thinking of leaving. The silent treatment lasted an entire airport and plane ride one time because I asked him what he thought to do about a job...his explanation was, "I just figured you were thinking of leaving me."
He never started anything.
Which is the mask? Or is he just messed up with issues, like anyone?
I go back and forth, A LOT. To the point I think I am guilty of that famous 'splitting' behavior sometimes.
A. My normal, wonder STBX: A bit lazy and without direction, but kind, thoughtful, reliable. Witty, graceful. Could be counted on for breakfast, looking out that I was eating, was there anything he could do for me? The guy that built things for me, lovely things. Was so proud of me, privately and publicly. Organized big birthday parties for me. So supportive and encouraging of my dreams. Capable of wonderful conversation, everything from science to religion. I admired his creativity, his unconventional look at many things.
B. My STBX, the sociopath weirdo Let's talk about red flags and inexcusables I should have noticed, perhaps?
The way he first would mechanically repeat things people had said in casual conversation, like a counselor, "So L, you're saying...". They'd screw up their eyes, and just say, "Yes...that's what I said." I noticed when we were dating that he didn't add much to conversations in general, just sort of absorbed whatever. With me it was different.
The way he would shift and morph into a child when at dinner parties anyone asked him what he did for a living. This changed post accident when he could proudly say, "I am recovering." Like a three year old telling its age.
The way he would over-react to things, as explained above. The anger, that was there before the accident. I saw it then. I remember telling a friend when we were dating there was a strange darkness in him I couldn't quite put my finger on. He would also over-react and panic in situations that left him looking like a frantic little kid, no one else understanding the urgency or drama.
I don't remember it pre-accident, but there was a lot of emphasis on people needing to be there for each other, him needing people to teach him about himself, his triggers...that I wasn't prepared to be a caretaker (well after he was walking and well), the talks about suicide, how he needed to depend on someone and couldn't trust me, couldn't trust I was looking out for his best needs. Of course this morphed into wanting to be with someone else that would make him happier, and that I was simply an unhappy person and he'd done his best to support me, but realized I was miserable and he couldn't change that.
The creep voice, I talked about it earlier in my posts. No one ever saw that dark slimy stuff but me. The father knows best personality, fine, people can and get rather self righteous. But that creep stuff, the talk about his little head in a guillotine basket, the defenses of violence in our society, hints 'before I hurt myself or someone else,' the time I saw him typing to a woman, 'come on A, you can talk to me about this, come on' when he clearly didn't want to talk to him about that...asking about her masturbation/bisexual life, it was all so creepy.
Fired from every job he ever had, basically for childish reactions to superiors, or just unbelievably stupid mistakes that cost the companies money and equipment. I hate to even bring this up, but all the witnesses that day saw him cross three lanes and rear end a stopped semi- full speed, in broad daylight. He could never say what happened.
The worst, the smirking/smiling thing. He almost seemed excited about what he'd done that night afterward, "H, what are you going to do about this?"..."Well Z, the real question I think, is, what are you going to do about it?" I still feel in my gut he was absolutely happy showing me how little he cared, finally free of having to pretend.
The Photos, Memories
Were we happy? Was my H beautifully calm, happy to stroll from shop to shop, interested in the things I was, dreaming dreams with me? Did he love me the way it seemed?
Or was he detached and aloof, happy to have something to do and someone to buy him lunch? Did he enjoy the acting of a man in love, the novelty of a fiance, a wife?
Subconscious v Conscious
V, I see it more as rational vs. emotional.
I know that many of these things he did and said were not remotely normal, but because of who I thought he was at CORE, I figured as he grew older and we grew our trust, it would smooth out. I always saw him in the past as my loving and at times, ridiculous, H.
Let the storm pass, talk about it, hope it doesn't come again. And in some ways, we really did work on many issues, but it was like wackamole...they just kept manifesting in sneakier or more disturbing ways. "H, no matter how upset you are, four letter words, name calling, insults, never appropriate..." So I would get the more creative, sublte, and psychoanalytical put downs. When he was no longer allowed to scream nastiness at me, he could still act exasperated like he was trying to explain to a stupid child what was wrong with them.
Rationally, I saw all of this. And said he is human, I am happy most of the time with this man. He's volatile and irrational sometimes, fine.
Because
Emotionally, I loved cuddling up under his big wing span, I found him beautiful and in need of a savior, I was so excited about building my life with this soulful, kind, creative man. I felt like the amount and intensity of love I'd felt with him justified whatever else may come, and I admired his interest in self improvement and 'introspection' after the neglect he'd experienced growing up. Emotionally, he could lift me higher than most men, whom I'd found somewhat boring.
I wanted to be there for him the way he wanted someone to be there for him. From the beginning.
Our Pattern
V, I think part of my struggle is quite consciously expecting this is just a bigger repeat of an established pattern. And maybe THIS time we will learn from it all and be ok and be happy, consistently.
The first time I broke it off with him, when he shoved me at that party, he first acted fine about it. Then, sulking, crying, "it doesn't matter now, does it?" when I tried to talk to him about what happened. Days later, he would put himself in front of me socially, at work, at I was rather cold and business. Then I reached out to him again and we had a good long talk and came to understanding how it would never happen again. 6 years ago.
The second time, I had a basket of laundry thrown at me and absolute nasty verbal abuse. Broke it off. Fine Z, "you're never interested in how we got here." "H, we've been through this before, you know that doesn't matter." He went out and about, looking well, happy, normal, adjusted, we'll be happier without each other. That got under my skin, made me question if I was in the wrong. And so I pursued. We talked, reconciled. With me convincing it did matter.
Our separation, he flipped me off after those two weeks walled away, was quite nasty. I told him to get out. Lots of crying/coldness. BD at MC. Total coldness. We decided to S. "Are we going to be ok, Z?" Crying. Hot, cold, hot cold. You guys know how this goes. But I pursued. No longer angry about his behavior, the EAs, the disrespect, man, I was going to DR this sitch. And sort of did and we pieced.
The day I confronted him, and he let the mask slip, quite pleased with himself. The day after, some laughter, some crying to himself. The day after, he presented me with a check for the money he'd stolen out of my account during that awful week, and when I asked if he would have given it back if I hadn't said something, I got the familiar, "Doesn't matter now, does it?" He did show up to a couple of events I was going to be at. I ran into him once. He walked around looking well as rain. But, I didn't pursue. My bestie said it looked like the biggest game of chicken he ever saw.
Finally that day in the cafe, my gut feeling was he was posturing over wanting the D papers signed. As soon as I agreed he got nasty about it and when I went to get it notarized that day, he pulled out one of the papers I wanted signed, and so we didn't. A week later he had a professional employed, 3rd party, and demanded my signature. I obliged. He then drug his feet for three months and was generally verbally abusive by text when i asked him why he wasn't signing and what needed to happen to get the show on the road.
My heart broke when I heard he'd told the paralegal, the mediator, others that he didn't want his divorce, that I did.
So I wrote him. Told him I wouldn't have had the slightest indication this wasn't exactly what he wanted. But if true, the path back I originally offered was the same. Counseling, anger management, and I would try to rebuild trust.
His response? Basically, "Z, I don't trust you, painful to hear from you, pointless to talk about it. I will not try to contact you." Just a sentence or two.
Sometimes I feel like if I would only pursue and tell him I can see his point, how I pushed his buttons that night, where I needed to be a better partner, we could still put this back together.
Do I want him back?
I would have said sometimes through the last 5 months, absolutely not.
Sometimes I would have said, I believe maybe...if he's hit rock bottom, if he knows what he's lost...maybe he wants to work this out, but bc of our pattern, is waiting for me to convince.
Rationally, I know this is not the case. I believe he used me, and is quite gone.
Rational me knows he is not a suitable life partner. That he has made not signal to ME that he wants to change, wants to be married. Hell with what he says to others.
Emotionally, I am still struggling to believe that the man I loved isn't in there at his core and we can't be together the way we were when I was happy, when we were making our great plans.
I just don't know how to look at it all in the rear view mirror. It is such a jumble to me.
V, in your post you said that you believe WH feels close to me? What does that mean?
My triggers - triggers that pull me out of rational/conscious and into emotional/subconscious?
Looking at evidence he must have surely loved me. The things he built that took hours and weeks, that served only me. I've put all but what I need for work away. Purchasing new ones is out of the question, both for price and because they were made better than what I could have bought. And...I like seeing some evidence it wasn't all in my head.
Grinding beans for coffee in the morning. I remember his long legs around me in bed and I miss him so much. Him with his love handles and boxers, singing. I like my coffee, so that'll stick around. With every pot I make, it becomes more my domain and not his, so it'll just take time.
Places we'd go often, that I still meet people.
Photos, but they're all put away.
My house, my dog, my workplace. He was so thoroughly a part of every bit of my life. It's just hard not to see ghosts of him everywhere.
To remove every single thing that makes me think of him, I would have to run away as he's run away all his life. Erase all of my friends from FB, as he's done. Stop thinking and talking about him, and start from scratch, new furniture, new identiy, new place.
So instead, I am trying to create as many new memories in these places and around 'our' favorites as I can. To systematically make him less relevant, like V how you talk about pushing your STBX back.
I think I've come up with a good re-framing technique to help me look at those memories where STBX when he was smiling and lovely, looking like a wonderful man a fool would leave.
I am going to overlay it with a three year old, looking loving and smiling. (The tantrums just get to be a bit much in an adult.)
I think this is the best possible way for me right now to distance myself and accept what was happening in these years.
Because I just can't get it in my head or gut that STBX is an abuser, or an awful person, and that is why when I 'rationally' try to pin him there without a mask, it doesn't stick?
An overgrown and dangerous toddler, that seems like something that will maybe stick for me. How I do wish he would take charge of growing up, but nobody got time for that.
Hi Z, thank you for posting other day. I've been trying to re-look at what I am doing to see if there is some tweaking to do
It looks like you have done some amazing looking at yourself lately. I am very excited for you and your path to healing. I am also thankful that V is so helpful to everyone here, so insightful and thought provoking.
As for "Because I just can't get it in my head or gut that STBX is an abuser, or an awful person, and that is why when I 'rationally' try to pin him there without a mask, it doesn't stick?" - I think that will take time. We all perceive our spouses in some way, they all change but we don't change our view of them. I think the 'reality perspective' will set in soon enough.
Thank you again for checking on me!!!
I had a period where I saw my WH as a cartoon Disney 'baby'.
The cigar smoking kind
V
I know the cigar smoking baby, but it just won't work! Too funny V, was this really your H's personality?
I think my visual can be two creatures inside STBX head; a John Malcovich head. A stock photo of a beautiful 3 year old boy with the sun shining like a halo. This little boy wants to be loved and cared for, catered to, and he's amazing. Except when he's disappointed. He mostly is in control as long as things are going well.
And the gremlin next to him takes the controls when the little one can't handle things and gets upset. Gremlin coldly and angrily destroys as his mission to revenge the little guy.
The sweet little guy bakes and creates and tinkers with his toys. The gremlin leaves him alone and watches lots of porn, amuses himself with being angry over world affairs and getting women to feel sorry for him. Enjoys studying people for where they are weak and making fun of them. Mostly they ignore each other. The little one doesn't know how to have conversations with himself or the Gremlin and the ugly one doesn't care to think about things like that though he's certainly intelligent.
We all have our angels and Devils on our shoulders; usually there is a core personality in the center.
I don't miss him much anymore. I've been feeling so good last few days, detached finally.
Somewhere here in this thread I think I've made a shift. Obviously I'm still thinking of him and the past, but it's not hurting as bad or heavy, lots of good GAL.
Yes, cigar baby WH in full ranting mode, spot on image.
I am very happy for you to read the shift, there is a peace and rationality in your post
V
Glad you had that shift to detachment Zelda, I had my own recently also and its much less chaotic in my head now. It really is nice to have that peace for even a little while. No telling how things will go in the future but if we keep moving forward we will be fine
Zelda, I am just catching up on your sitch now. I was emotionally abused (and borderline physical abuse as well) as a child, daughter of an alcoholic. There are many of us out there. I don't have much to add, I think you have gotten some great advice and support here.
I just visited my father last weekend, got there with my kids and within 10 minutes I wanted to leave. Because somehow, every time, I "forget" how mean he is. How could I forget? But we don't get to choose our fathers, we do get to choose our spouse.
My point being, we don't always think in our own best interests. Our emotions and memories can deceive us. You deserve better and I think with detachment you will get stronger. Keep posting and take good care of yourself. You are worth it,
My IC has for 2nd time suggested I consider drugs.
I will pull myself out of this without them. I am going to increase my schedule demands during the day.
I still don't know what my past really was and it is hard to go forward into the future without some way to make it all add up. So I have tried to just accept that it doesn't and that is how it will sum up, as an irrational number.
I just hurt endlessly.
I can't believe he, who loved me so much, could have treated me this way and never to look back, like I was nothing. There was always some sign after every dip of the roller coaster that he cared, and the silence has been deafening. It is hard not to see him as evil. I do not want to see him again, ever, but in ten days I have to.
I've decided it's the nature of abuse to not want equality in a partnership. To diminish, shame, scare, and control so that a safe place of power is maintained.
One photo I found of our old texts from last year when I was on my way to meet him and said something he didn't like about how his ongoing case effected both of us and we needed to be able to talk about it:
H: go F off!
(An hour goes by)
H: where are you?
Z: per your request, I've decided to F off.
H: but K is here helping,she asked about you, you're going to leave her to do all the work?
H: as if you even cared that Id have a chair to sit in.
Notice how he swings from intimidation to guilt, implying how selfish I am.
What incredible anxiety must lie under all that. I will not pity him though. He has a mans intelligence, if not a developed heart, and he could have made the decision long ago to grow up if he wanted to.
Instead he'll go through life finding fault with every mirror he looks into until he finally smashes it into the ground.
I want to tell his old friends about the 'running' they told me of, what it all was those years. I want to find the exes and talk to them, but he never made mention of their names, whereabouts or anything but their craziness.
The last one, he said she cut her wrists trying to break into his place. One before that, threw a computer at him. He broke things off immediately with both, he'd told me. I wonder now if he wasn't the one bleeding on a windowsill or hurling a monitor cross the room.
Thank you Photoka and Fogg. I am detached from him, no longer on his string wanting my M...and I grow stronger, it's true.
But now I struggle with something that seems to sit on my chest all day. I cry and cry. Days pass in what feels like hours. I still get out and I still GAL but it's positively joyless except for a few glimmers where something seems funny to me or I find myself inspired. I am trusting that these moments will increase despite what feels like a long slide the other way.
My STBX must have felt something like this after enough time has passed since his accident, and he looked healed...when people no longer acted as though anything had happened or he might need them.
I told my IC, bestie...the hardest thing is it's a blip on everyone else's timeline. It still feels raw to me as the week it happened. There's nothing to say to anyone any more. No one understands and I feel incredibly alone and stopped in time in this way.
Hi Zelda don't know you story well but here is my 2cents.
There is no prize you win by getting through this without the aid of medicine. I was on a heavy doze of prozac and along with therapy and Alanon I have come out of my divorce a new and stronger person.
We hear on the boards understand how raw you feel. I totally get it. If your IC doesn't get it maybe consider a new one. The best counselors I have heard of allow us each to get through it at our own pace.
Seriously consider medication - Im off it now but it really saved me. I would never want anyone to go through the misery I experienced without all the help available.
It is not much, but I do not believe you are one. I am glad you have stuck around. You have made a difference in my healing...I hope we can help you any way we can.
XX
A very good couple of days as I approach the hearing. Feeling like STBX is firmly part of my past, not my now. Staying busy and new classes and friends help.
And I'm going to Europe for a couple of weeks after, so looking forward to a new chunk of experiences that have nothing to do with him.
Sounds like you are doing great moving forward despite your low emotions. You sound like you are a bit more interested in your life than the last page. I'd agree that there is nothing wrong w/ a little medication. It doesn't turn off the feelings, just makes them more bearable to explore and process while still getting on w/ life. It takes a few weeks for anti-depressants to work, and often there is a trial-and-error process finding the right drug, so you'll have to bear the depression for a while longer even with medication.
And, while I'm not in a proper setting to evaluate you, what you stated are classic signs of depression, very treatable, and medication will most likely make it easier to work through the underlying issues than make it harder. Just saying.
Enjoy the trip and all your activities. It sounds like you are certainly doing what it takes to make lemonaid out of the lemons you were handed.
"It is not much, but I do not believe you are one."
sorry, shoulda said 'are not alone'
I hate autocorrect and running around like a crazy person sometimes.
Europe...awesome for you Z!!!
I can imagine some amazing memories coming from that trip!
Thanks, guys.
I appreciate everyone, but I'm not doing anti-depressants. Messing with my brain chemistry isn't an option, going to do it the natural way with endorphins and real stresses and joys. I just need more life in my life.
The sudden departure of my STBX from my insides is a mystery to me, however. It's like his hold on my heart has almost evaporated over night. I know that I no longer love him. I don't quite see him clearly, not yet...but I don't miss him. He may have some power to reopen the wound at the hearing. He may not. But I'm happy he has, overnight, moved to the camp of somebody I used to know.
My IC today again confirmed that his behavior wasn't half way normal or healthy - both what she saw herself and what I told her about. She saw the twisting and put downs and manipulation. I need to hear that, I wish I didn't need it so much. I am doing a better job of staying with my experiences. As time marches on, it is sadly the negative ones, from years, that are the vivid ones rising to the top.
She had a good tip for me as I try to sort out his 'feedback' - do my open and honest friends concur? What of it has my family given me that is similar? Unless I see patterns, ignore it for what it is - likely his projections/and or playing on my fears.
I like that feedback. It allows me to own what I can, work on some of the things I first came here with, but walk away with a bit more balance.
I'm getting a tiny bit excited to get on with my life, emotionally.
My neighbor friend went through something similar years ago. I had a particularly bad Sunday, and the following morning over coffee I told her, "I'm just so sick of feeling this way."
"And THAT is the point you will turn around. When you are tired of feeling broken hearted, you've exhausted yourself, you'll make the decision to just MOVE ON."
I'm getting there. IC has warned me I may backslide around the hearing next week, but not to imagine all is lost, I'll rebound quicker.
Z
I personally think this isn't depression but trauma. It's a completely different dynamic, in fact some ADs are contra indicated in trauma, as that needs anxiety medication.
Z, I think you found your Spellbreaker that you can now adapt to any situation involving WH or any other abuser. If you practice it then you can adapt it.
Just a reminder:
I think my visual can be two creatures inside STBX head; a John Malcovich head. A stock photo of a beautiful 3 year old boy with the sun shining like a halo. This little boy wants to be loved and cared for, catered to, and he's amazing. Except when he's disappointed. He mostly is in control as long as things are going well.
And the gremlin next to him takes the controls when the little one can't handle things and gets upset. Gremlin coldly and angrily destroys as his mission to revenge the little guy.
The sweet little guy bakes and creates and tinkers with his toys. The gremlin leaves him alone and watches lots of porn, amuses himself with being angry over world affairs and getting women to feel sorry for him. Enjoys studying people for where they are weak and making fun of them. Mostly they ignore each other. The little one doesn't know how to have conversations with himself or the Gremlin and the ugly one doesn't care to think about things like that though he's certainly intelligent.
We all have our angels and Devils on our shoulders; usually there is a core personality in the center.
I think a wise decision to make change without AD and I am so delighted. You are pulling your own strings.
V
Thank you, V. I googled difference between depression and trauma and this came up, I related to it said as difference between dreaming and remembering:
ut when we continue to experience fear and flashbacks, too much cortisol can damage the hippocampus. This is part of the short-term memory system, where memories of events up to about two weeks ago are temporarily stored, waiting until they are woven into part of our story about ourselves. A lot of cortisol in the hippocampus means we have especially vivid memories for highly emotional events, like remembering exactly where we were on 9/11. But too much cortisol short-circuits the hippocampus and interferes with the process of weaving together short-term memories so they can be put in long-term storage. Thus, the PTSD sufferer relives, rather than remembers, traumatic experiences. It’s like the difference between remembering and dreaming. When I remember something, I’m aware that I’m in the present, looking back on the past. But when I’m dreaming, the only “I” there is is back in the dream.
Was I ever scared for my life? No. I had those weird day dream flashes where I saw my STBX and I passing in a door way and he'd suddenly pin me and stab me. It was a startling and vivid visual that increased with time. Nothing like that ever happened, and the night before his settlement check was the most direct violence I'd ever experienced.
I have felt like I've been living a very raw day over and over again where I woke up and realized that nothing that was real was real at all. It was very different than the first BD, when the M just seemed to be on the rocks. Him sneering at me on the couch, it was a sudden realization that STBX had been acting for a very long time. We have a poster here with name Uturn, and that is the trauma, the sudden boomerang for me. H had been telling me how much he loved me and how lucky he was only hours ago, before the big violence. And then he looked so cold and unfeeling and happy with himself at the mention of D. It defied what I believed possible out of him, and everything I thought I knew about 'us' and the last six years, about what I meant to him and what kind of man he was.
So that is layer 1, the immediate emotional trauma of being set up, told to trust, used and discarded with that kind of violence.
Layer 2 is the years of being told I was selfish, unable to relate to people, unable to understand myself or him, I had an inability to listen, I was not a soft person, I was not capable of meeting his emotional needs. It is in the walking on eggshells wondering when te next outburst would be, how to appropriately frame a request so that it didn't set him off. Feeling like I was approaching it too wrong, too emotionally, too unemotionally, too suddenly, having it in the back of my mind I would drive anyone to these upset moments.
I am trying to work through Layer 2 where it is valid. Where I can improve, being less judgemental - and I think I've made some progress. Less critical. Listening more deeply to everyone.
But the rest of it was bs. I loved him well and was far more patient with his irrational and nasty behavior than I should have been. And this is the feedback from friends and family.
Layer 1 is the sharper trauma. Everything I know and trusted suddenly upside down and laughing at me. It says I was worthless, worth only using. It says my own judgement about the man I chose was dramatically off.
Layer 2 says someone else out there will make him happier just by virtue of being not me, that I wasn't enough.
To work through these very alive feelings, I am trying to keep my own experience more central. So, what does that sound like?
Layer 1 - getting angry. I do not deserve to be treated that way. I am worth more. He is an a$$hole to have been so violent, unapologetic, to steal from me that week and sit there sneering about it. It's that simple. He is a number of names. It is not a reflection on me. It's sad that it happened that way, but it's my past. Everyone was duped. My family and our friends, they also believed he was lovely. They all saw real STBX come out, each in their own way and time, and no one is saying I've lost anything great here. I deserved more and I stood by ground.
I need to hold on to that and tell my hurt and worthless feelings, it was abuse. Him. Not me. I wasn't discarded, or less, awful, or any of that...it was only what he was trying to make me feel through the violence and silence afterward.
Layer 2: I can own some of that. I could have been a better partner. But the things he told me about me, and about what he needs...get a grip, Z. Rational me knows that he simply has never demonstrated constructive, reparative communication skills with me, friends or professionals he had to work with. His R problems will not stop with me. I am changing what I can and he point blank told me he wasn't interested in looking at himself or his past. This wasn't about me, not all these years of psycho-analytics and gas lighting and all the other bs.
I am stronger than him. I always was and I forgot it. I swam out there and tried to help a man flailing in the water drowning, and he was slowly taking me down with him. I allowed for all that, I even went out multiple times again and again after him.
But no more. I choose to see him as his split, reactive personality and I know I cannot change another person or expect different outcomes. I choose to honor my pain and experience as more important than his 'pain,' which I now see as a tool of manipulation that turned me into a doormat.
I know I am getting stronger because I now see a choice in either sitting in the 'dreaming' re-living it feelings - OR - shrugging and saying I'm better than that. I've made that choice for two, almost three days in a row, and it feels so good. I just have to stay with it.
Allowing it to all die as part of my past instead of fighting so hard to make it make sense in the present.
Thanks, guys.
I appreciate everyone, but I'm not doing anti-depressants. Messing with my brain chemistry isn't an option, going to do it the natural way with endorphins and real stresses and joys. I just need more life in my life.
You've heard the advice, and I respect your choice on how you proceed au natural. You've got a good handle on things, and I know you'll make the right choice for you in this.
I'll look a the rest of what you posted, but I wanted to underline that so that hopefully everyone will back off that line of discussion.
Systematic abuse becomes traumatic, and what your H was telling you about you being selfish and turning things back on you does look like abuse. The hippocampus shrinks and doesn't work well an stressful environments, even if those aren't traumatic, so don't worry too much about whether or not it is trauma. It will have at least that similarity, of difficulty processing memories and resolving emotional turmoil/struggle regardless. It's more complicated, and not just about the hippocampus, but some of the other pro-stress physiological responses that interact with the hippocampus, but that's not really important.
That said, trauma and depression are often interlinked, as the anxiety can lead of the long-term stress that leads to trauma can contribute to what we call anhedonia (lack of ability to feel happiness) because your body is moving to help you not feel anything as a defense to the overstimulation of the stress.
So, good times can seem as threatening as bad times. This is why it takes a slow approach, gentleness, self-compassion, and patience to ease back into the positive stimulation of life. You can't just throw yourself into exciting times and expect to snap out. In fact, that is more likely to make things worse as your body and psyche move to protect you from the threat of that overstimulation stress.
What you are doing is great, so what I'm saying is in no way telling you to change things. Rather, it is just some insight as to why to not expect too much too quickly, and be a bit sensitive to the fact that too much good stimulation may produce some counter-intuitive reactions for a while.
Slow & steady, just like you are doing. I don't have any doubt about you getting through this and coming out smelling like a rose from what I'm seeing.
Thank you Asitis. I am sure I will be fine in time.
This post ends the work week. I am feeling good, strong, and above it all.
Actually looking forward to my hearing next week and being done with STBX in every sense. He was one of the worst things that happened to me and now that the 'love' feelings are almost all dissipated, I know that much for sure.
Two days to go and the fat lady will sing.
My heart hurts less and less but the past is still confusing to me. Still trying to sort out what is for me to own and what was pure gaslighting and manipulation on top of the physical intimidation.
My friend sent me this:
Rehearsing your troubles results in experiencing them many tiems, whereas you are meant to go thru them only when they actually occur. Do not multiply your suffering this way!Come to me and relax in my peace. (Jesus)
It's hard not to rehearse that night and his following actions and tie in back to something I should have seen or known
Today I am divorced.
Of all the things I expected though, I wouldn't have expected the behavior from my X - and I pleasantly surprised myself. So V, if you're still reading, we'll see how closely our Xs really resemble each other in time.
Quick background - 5 months of near NC since the big violence and silence afterward. First month verbally abusive texts from him, "get the F out of your own way, Z...f'ing chit you p*** me off"
Six weeks ago when he finally signed the papers he started (five months ago), I heard from the paralegal and others how upset he was, how much he wanted his M. I wrote to him and told him there was a path back if he would get counseling. His response? "it's painful to hear from you, it's pointless to discuss, I do not trust you, I will not contact you."
Today he walked into a nearly empty waiting room and took the chair right next to me. We greeted each other and I sat in uncomfortable silence next to him. When my mediator friend walked in, X cried crocodile tears to the "how are you" question. Well, maybe it was real pain, who knows.
After 15 minutes of silence I turned and asked, "H, why did you wait so many months to finish those papers?" It was the only thing I really cared to know from him. But instead of an answer, he turned on loving sad puppy dog eyes. "Z, let's just get through the morning first."
I moved out into the hallway to sit with my mediator friend. He said it looked like control to sit so near to me after everything that had transpired.
We went into the courtroom. Over in less than two minutes. To the counseling question, he answered quite right, "we tried"
As the door shut, he brightly asked me if I wanted to go to breakfast with him. This! From the man that had found no point in my invite to talk it over earlier? (How painful it must have really been to hear from me. )
I only said that I thought we had paperwork to go pick up. And as we rode the elevator down to that next room, he made a point of being witty with any and all on it. And I thought, Z, you will be an idiot to pick up that invitation for mind-screwing.
On the way out of the building, after picking up the judgement forms, he asked again.
I stopped and said, "But what would the point be?" I said it gently enough; it was a real question. I wondered, would I get the apology that might have eased some of this? Rational answers from an irrational man as to why he handled things this summer the way he did? Hear any regret? Doubted it. But here was his chance to say something if he had wanted to.
Instead, he made a face and said, "fair enough," turned on his heel and walked away in the other direction. I called out goodbye over my shoulder.
I feel liberated.
If there is such a thing as closure, I have it today. I saw him and did not feel as much as I thought I might have. I saw his tears and pain and felt wary, not loving or full of sympathy, as though it was an act. I saw his congeniality and felt wary. I just felt unsettled and didn't find much attractive anymore.
I sat next to a body I felt some compulsion to touch and love as I used to; but I felt repulsed and angry in even measure. And numb. And it was good to finally face him. To discover I didn't turn to stone!
Especially to say no more to the games.
What would that breakfast have been? A chance to revisit how much we'd loved each other and really tried and a chance for me to claim responsibility for the downfall of our marriage, a chance for me to still feel hope and rekindling of something?
No thanks. He has an ex he was involved in emotionally to that extent, he doesn't need another. I don't need to be on his entertainment roster.
And I refuse to provide any semblance of love or caring for him after the abuses and the way he used me and discarded me.
If he had a fantasy of an ex wife that would still be a meaningful part of his life when he needed to feel loved again, I suppose he can drop that. That feels like closure. No, we're not going to be friends, or ever speak again.
And a new chapter begins. I have no reason to think of him ever again much.
It's about me going forward.
Here's to a brand new day Zelda. May you continue to find peace, happiness, and walk this new path with your head held high and your heart healed.
Big hug,
PP
Wow - Onwards! You area very very strong!
What should you call this next chapter...or maybe wait until it is written.
Hopefully you can sleep easy tonight!!
Thinking of you today, Zelda. Sounds like you're in the right place. I hope I can be as strong as you when that day comes.
Z
I am still here. I am so proud of you.
V
Thank you, everyone. I am so glad for this forum. I lost my way a bit and have not been adequately focused on me for too long. Too much time working through depression and what was, but I feel like I am truly at peace now and on the upswing.
The difference here, I think, is knowing that you write not just in blank pages as with a journal, but there are people who read and understand and care makes all the difference. Thank you all. I know I write endlessly and like an eskimo talks about snow, I think I am saying different things and it probably all still sounds like snow...so thank you for reading and your words of support.
I will start a new thread soon but be a bit absent from the board for most of the month.
Im proud of you Z and very glad you're in a better place. Its extremely weird behavior from these ex's...when the end is nearing. mine is even more all over the place now. such similar behaviors immediately before and after D. i don't know whats going through their minds. but I'm glad you're doing better z.
Games.
Today XH was supposed to pick up all the rest of his things. While I was out, he did, but only three items. Told me I could trash the rest if I wanted. Texted me compliments on the house.
But then asked about an item he thinks belongs to him but doesn't. Said that he didn't have room for it, but we can talk about it if I wanted to keep it!
Ridiculous. I stay NC.
Wow! Games for sure.
Let me leave some stuff, have you throw it out like it's your job to take care of it...but also keep some things so that we have to have communication.
A great twist on the old "leave behind technique"
Stay strong Zelda!
PP
wow Z... you are strong... I admire it
Thanks Pinn, Pighead. I just misplaced my lady balls for a time.
Not being love drunk - achieved by significant no contact - has been the biggest help in re-centering on my experience. Rather than worrying what he could mean, what he wants, what he is thinking...who cares. The only thing he was ever right about was that he "married up." And my number one goal is to get back to the me (slightly older and wiser) that I was before I let his mind-effery take hold.
A long time ago Cadet told me to take my love, box it up and put it on the shelf. That's where it stays. To open it?
XH would have to grow up, replace abuse tactics with direct and assertive communication. He'd have to find something to replace the emptiness inside of him. A single personality to settle on. Understand why he makes sympathy grabs to other women all the time. Do something to show me this, regain trust.
Life is too short. I plan on being wildly successful and madly in love again before he even gets through step one.
Thanks Pinn, Pighead. I just misplaced my lady balls for a time.
Not being love drunk - achieved by significant no contact - has been the biggest help in re-centering on my experience. Rather than worrying what he could mean, what he wants, what he is thinking...who cares. The only thing he was ever right about was that he "married up." And my number one goal is to get back to the me (slightly older and wiser) that I was before I let his mind-effery take hold.
A long time ago Cadet told me to take my love, box it up and put it on the shelf. That's where it stays. To open it?
XH would have to grow up, replace abuse tactics with direct and assertive communication. He'd have to find something to replace the emptiness inside of him. A single personality to settle on. Understand why he makes sympathy grabs to other women all the time. Do something to show me this, regain trust.
Life is too short. I plan on being wildly successful and madly in love again before he even gets through step one.
And he's shown no sign of doing that. Much easier for him to find a new victim to get what he feels he needs than to look in the mirror and fix things that will horrify him about himself.
By the time he might get around to it, your life will be well beyond that. You'll likely have found someone who deserves you and will be good for you to be with. You'll have a lot of work to do to not let the scars of the past interfere with that opportunity. Just saying. You know your course. And, yes knowing doesn't make the urge to turn back any easier.
On to the practical: just set a time limit to resolve all outstanding issues. He wants X. If you are OK with this, just say that he can, but all requests need to be settled by the end of the month. All of them. If you dispute any, pay a mediator for an hour of time to sit down and address any nagging items and be done with it.
If you don't mind him coming over to take care of his junk rather than you being responsible for throwing it out, make that what you still need from him. I suspect just junking it yourself will be less hassle than having to deal w/ him, but maybe not. Just one of the costs of being free.
e-Hugs.
Been there, done that. Turn up any time you like, collect some stuff,leave behind others. Have the t-shirt.
"I can turn up when I like, take what I want" My WH actually said that.
Sounds like your XWH is also saying "take care of my junk and I decide what is junk".
So I took all the stuff I could find, even empty envelopes and I packed it. All of it, put it in storage. "No need for you to visit my home WH. So leave me alone.make it happen".
Here is selection from a list: old garden chairs, empty picnic box, 10 bottles of water: 5 bottles of Chianti; half bottle of gin, open box of tooth picks, 52 cookery books, bandages, ear plugs, two old Xbox, broken telephone handset, TV, very old broken TV, box of old paperwork including used stamps and empty envelopes, broken mixed assortment of electrical equipment, 110 pairs of socks, 142 pairs of underpants (including holes), three dressing gowns with stains, duvet, 12 old pillows, unused pan set, cutlery (mixed assortment), broken can opener, tea bags, gravy strainer, mixed random car products, old children's toys, nappy bags, potty, broken car seat.......need I continue.
I wrapped everything very very carefully indeed, folded, tissue paper, foam protection bubble wrap lots of tape, items wiped, carefully protected, boxed, then in storage box. Or if clothes, folded, ironed, tissue paper, in suitcases or nap bags. Linens etc in plastic storage bags.
I treated every item as if it were the Crown Jewels.
Trust me, this WH got everything of his, half used soap, shaving creams, razor blades ( even the old ones.) I emptied every cupboard, drawer, attic space, garage cupboard. Methodically. There is nothing left, not even a screwdriver. I went to the pound store and got lots of plastic boxes to store food and cans, all of his non perishables that he says I never.bought him.
Why did I do this? Trust me it isn't passive aggressive, there are some valuable things for WH, memories, photographs etc. it isn't for me to decide what's good or not. This way no accusations, something's broken or damaged deliberately. This way no suggestion that I have not given WH everything of his. I don't decide he does. He doesn't get to say, there was a precious photo in an old envelope or any other thing. He got it all, any doubt I put it in his pile. It's only stuff.
New annoying strategy WH haunts the village pubs near the big house, I leave and go to my Brighton flat.
Complete NC, no texts, emails, calls, etc. he will move on very quickly as its a boring life.
Z it's coming to an end, this is the last hurrah, it's frustrating. It's also very humorous and obvious. my suggestion, have a belly laugh, if there isn't a storage locker full, box it and post it. If you have no address to a mutual friend who is willing for collection. Use lots of box tape, so it has to be taken away and not opened.
V
OK V, I'm impressed and troubled.
First, was the chianti and good? I would have kept that as a management/moving fee.
Second, you really counted how many socks & pairs of underwear he had?
And, a guy with a gravy strainer?
This list was fun reading. Glad that's past in your life though.
Yes the Chianti was very good but WH bought it. I kept the Rjioca,which was even better. Yes I listed and counted everything even the underpants and socks.
A copy of the list went into WH storage locker. I recommend this if your XWW or XWH is very awkward. I also had someone else sign the list as we put the stuff in storage. No wriggle room.
WH doesn't cook at all, but the books were from his W1 who died, so he has 3 granddaughters who he would like to give them too.
V
WH doesn't cook at all, but the books were from his W1 who died, so he has 3 granddaughters who he would like to give them too.
And he has been keeping every sock and every pair of underwear since she died?
He hoards. Many of the underpants are size M and WH is now an XL. Maybe with saggy elastic they still fit, not my concern. I did wash them all first before packing, no skids.
He probably has a secret stash of boogers somewhere, stored with his list of POWs.
Apologies Z for hijack, but I trust we are raising a smile.
V
I am having a good laugh. One of the items he picked up yesterday was a box full of empty boxes. In case anybody wants the original iPhone box without a phone in it. You know. Might come in handy.
I am going to donate his old medical equipment. It felt like a slap in the face he left it all behind after a year of telling me he was going to be an invalid for the rest of his life and "Z you're not prepared to be a caretaker."
Most everything else will be garage sale or trash or out on the curb. This new thing he wants to discuss with me isn't even anything that is his! It is so ridiculous.
I recommend giving it all back to him
V
He's got everything he ever owned, V. No reason for him to contact me or show up. This last quibble is just silliness. Going to start a new thread...
Next one - I am considering this a success all things considered.
I loved and married a man - who at best - was immature and had no healthy adult communication skills, who told me a year after marriage he didn't want kids. It's over now and I have a chance to find a partner who is my equal.
At worst - he knew exactly what he was doing when he came home to piece our M back together. Before the violence. He used me.
He could open up the H Full Name School of Mind Effery with courses in:
Communication: In this course, we'll cover word salad basics, how to talk something to death, how to "slow it down and get the details right" so that they can be twisted as needed. The most successful graduates will leave their partner feeling as though they have huge issues in this department and afraid to bring up anything that they know upsets you.
Passive Control: Though overt displays of aggression can be effective, the more sustainable ones consist of acting helpless, needy, desperate and chronically hurt by the things your partner is doing or saying. This class will feature examples of how to deflect a partner who is attempting to assert their own needs or wants. Acting wounded in order to reasonably perpetuate silent treatment for days on end.
Peter Pan-ing: How not to ever grow up! You do not actually need a job after the relationship is serious. Make a partner into the mother of your dreams and, with other techniques, shirk responsibility and accountability. Special session on advanced feminist lingo to use while they work and clean up after you - remarkably effective.
Intimidation and Violence 101: The adult game of "I'm not hitting you, I'm not hitting you." There are a lot of fine lines to be maintained here so that you can repeatedly walk them over and over again without being accused of abuse. Throwing things, punching things, destroying property. We'll also cover how to emotionally threaten your partner with your own suicide, subtle hints of serious harm, leaving and cheating.
Best of the Narcissistic Techniques: Recycle your ex-girlfriends with style! How to find other women who are susceptible to sympathy pleas. Use the partner for all they're worth financially, emotionally, sexually and when they're least expecting it, discard them suddenly. Cruelty for kindness is valid, but we'll also teach how to leave enough room for you to come back and make friendly overtures, too. Always leave some reason to contact them again, as ex-partners may be useful again for 'love' and validation especially when the current one is disappointing. Good riddance.
Here we go, forward:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...849#Post2604849