Old Thread:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2582814#Post2582814Quick Rundown:
BD - Jan 2015
WAW has "completely let PP go"
Current state is NC.
MC session backed out of at last minute after 3 months of minimal contact.
I am moving on as if my W will not be returning and am at peace with the situation on most days. Looking at all of the positives, it's hard to argue that this has been a gift.
Current goals:
Stay 100% sober
Finish out current year at business while developing private business in health, fitness, and wellness.
Write WAW a letter re: AA's 9th step
Get dog back from WAW
Live an amazing life and continue to become a spouse that only a complete fool would leave.
Bringing this over from the previous thread:
PP,
Hey have you given any thought to my suggestion of writing a letter to W?
Hi Wonka,
I'd like to write my W a letter. I've needed this week to work on my business relationship and get that sorted out. And then get some rest. All of this has me sleeping about 4 hours a night unfortunately.
I can start on the letter on Sunday of this week. Any thoughts to share on it?
Sketch it out first? I'll type it out first until I can hand write it.
Thanks again.
PP
You would want to start with 2 to 3 general main points and then flesh it out with the support from the counselor who connected you with the couple. I'd want to work with them on feedback and input on the letter.
I would start off the letter to W with an opening along those lines (of course, you can change to suit your style):
W,
I had hoped that we both would attend the MC session because I wanted to share with you some reflections I've had since we separated. Since we did not meet in person, I thought I would write those thoughts out in a letter to you.
You need to know that it is my preference to do this in person with you for I feel you deserved the courtesy and respect to hear it directly from my mouth. I no longer want to run or hide from you. After a lot of introspection and reflection, I want to reach out to you and share what I've learned in my own personal journey. ................COMMENT BODY
Good stuff buddy! Keep up the good work and PMA!
Thank you Wonka, I'll get working on this this weekend.
Eyetie - thank you for stopping by.
Working hard today to keep a PMA and have as much faith as I can muster to believe that everything is happening exactly as it was planned.
I hope everyone else is taking deep breaths and enjoying moments of peace in their lives.
PP
Curious is this is an actual term - relational amnesia. Perhaps a survival method by our psyches.
Today I remembered an injury that my W had while talking to someone else who had the same ordeal. It brought back six months of our M to my mind, how we cared for it, trained her despite having it, and the discussions we had around it almost on a daily basis. It all came back to me as if this was an experienced I lived through with her 10 years ago and was remembering. This was last year though!
Sometimes I wonder if our minds just start deleting aspects of our past that are linked to current pain.
Sometimes I wonder if our minds just start deleting aspects of our past that are linked to current pain.
Hey Buddy!
First of all, thank you for all your extra support recently. You have helped me so much. I am truly at peace with my M sitch and I’m continuing to keep a PMA and work on myself.
Next, you bring up an interesting point I quoted above. I’m not a psychiatrist, but with the human mind I think anything is possible – good or bad.
Finally, I’m really excited that you decided to write a letter to your W. You know you’re in great hands with Wonka.
PigPen, you’re an inspiration to so many of us. We have your back!
Regards,
Bob
I'm looking forward to seeing how the letter goes, PP. You surely have taken charge of your life, no matter how things play out. And like Bob, I want to thank you for being so supportive of me. You are an inspiration. Praying for you... Dif
How are you today, PigPen?
Bob
Thanks for checking in Bob and Dif.
Truthfully I've been struggling. Not sure if it's the situation with my W, or my work, but dealing with both at the same time has left me utterly exhausted. I had to work Saturday morning and then completely cancelled all of my GAL plans for the weekend, opting to spend the two days on the couch watching movies, writing, and leaving only to grab coffee with a client.
I think Starsky posted something on one of Zues's threads about the six month mark being when the adrenaline wears off and people get really tired. I feel that. I'm depressed, but not in the "I can't even imagine getting out of bed today" way. It's more of the "gosh, everything just seems like it takes 10x more energy than it should" way. Laundry is exhausting, I ordered toilet paper off of Amazon prime instead of going to the store.
I'm usually a pretty high energy guy, I workout every day, surf, lift weights, write, meet with clients, cook, etc. Now I'm down to one main activity a day and the rest of the time is spent recovering. It's no fun at all.
It'll pass I know. Things will normalize.
I had to email my W last week about a joint credit card we had and also let her know I'd like to have our dog back for two months. We'd been trading until I went to Central America and agreed that once (if) everything is said and done, he should end up with one of us. But until then we co-parent.
I got a reply to the credit card question and "I'm still thinking of a reply to you taking (dog) back for a bit". Now I just feel like I'm getting jerked around and I think it's added to my malaise. I had told her that she could drop him at her brother's house if need be, he was both of ours as we got him together. He was also my lifeline after BD and her immediate move out. Taking him to the beach saved my life on a number of occasions. I have no idea how people do this with kids. I'm freaking out over my dog!
It just bums me out. My dreams this week have been a mess as well. For those of you that follow them, mine have all been about getting 80% through a task and then having to start over, over and over and over, with no resolution. Every night. So I wake up exhausted. Seems kind of fitting though.
Tomorrow's a new day, will keep my head up and keep plowing forward with my DB and ventures.
Again, bless you both for stopping by and seeing me. The note to my W is on hold for a bit until I can muster up the energy to put it together.
Big hugs,
PP
No shame in a couple day "breather". Try to relax. Tomorrow is a new day.
PP,
Agree with Matt, a breather is actually needed IMO. I have been feeling this lately as well, so much focus on GAL that GAL itself becomes exhausting. A night or two at home with a few beers, good tunes, laundry, cleaning and such is actually enjoyable for me now.
Also feel you on the Dog bit. Mine are cats, but I told W way back when that she was the one leaving so she forfeited any pet privilege. I hope you're able to work something out with this.
Hey PigPen thinking about you and sending good thoughts your way. I am also in a custody battle over dogs. I have two and she has one. She doesn't seem to care one bit about the two she left behind, which I struggle to accept. She was so close to them. I really don't know who this new person is. I am doing a good job detaching and don't want to break no contact over this. I am finally getting a little pursuit from her.
Hang in there!
Thanks guys, back to basics this week - meditation, journaling, light workouts, lots of breathing.
Not taking things too seriously and having arguments with my W in my head over our dog.
Detach, enjoy life, be of service to others. Those are my goals for the week.
And I heard back from my W regarding getting my dog back for two months. I'm so grateful for DB'ing because I now can look past her charm and beauty and see the head high pile of horseshit that was in her email. Prior to DB I was terrified of making a move that would upset her and it tainted how I viewed everything. Here's the most amazing part:
"I think if we were to ask him (the dog), he'd say he just wants to stay with me. So I hope we can just make this easy. If you agree, you can come down and see him every once in a while."
Seriously, this is the most brilliant woman I have ever met, and I mean that without sarcasm. I've watched her destroy people in business meetings and do so with a smile.
This is a woman that turned down Playboy to go into medicine. The combo of brains and beauty is too much for most people to handle...and maybe it used to be for me but come on, if we were to ask the dog - are you serious?!
PP,
I would respond:
"I think it's important that we focus on having some individual time with the dog. As you can imagine, we both love the dog very much. I propose that we come up with a fairly equitable schedule. I would like to pick up the dog and keep him with me for 1 week and then drop him off with you for the next two to three weeks? Naturally, we would ensure that food, toys and other comforts are packed for him. Thoughts? Thanks- PP."
Thank you Wonka, I'm not going to write anything back today. I'm still a bit speechless.
Is there a reason why you think 1 week on 2-3 weeks off is better than a month or two? Is it to increase our interactions? I was hoping to get him back for an extended period so he gets used to being back with me.
I'm happy to post more about from the email if you think it will help. It was a full page full of all kinds of explanations why her keeping him is the best solution and why I should agree with her on it.
Do I need to address any of those?
PP
If you asked the dog, you would get 'woof' . It's all temp checking again.
If it were me I think I would just say what you want and put dates in black and white. I will pick up woof on xxxxx and drop him off on xxxxxx. Please advise if you have a schedule in mind. Then like Mozza does with his kids propose an online schedule. He recommended a good system to HeavyD must go look it up.
Ignore the verbiage.
V
Is there a reason why you think 1 week on 2-3 weeks off is better than a month or two? Is it to increase our interactions? I was hoping to get him back for an extended period so he gets used to being back with me.
You've got to start somewhere, PP. I think having the dog 1 week is a good plan. No, it is not to increase your interactions. It is to state clearly that you want to spend time with the dog. Ms. Wonka and I did the dog switcheroo about once a month due to living more than 600 miles apart. I presume that you and W live less than 500 miles apart...??
You don't need to make a counterpoint for every point W made in her email to you. This isn't a fencing competition..ya know. Short, concise, and succinct. You take charge by saying you want x, y, and z.
Beautiful, thank you Wonka, and V.
Big hugs to you both.
PP
PP
If you asked the dog, you would get 'woof' .
V
This is the most brilliant thing that's ever been written. Thank you V.
How about this for a reply?
Dear W,
I wasn't going to mention this as I know it'll cause hurt feelings, but actually, I did ask the dog. He chose me.
PigPen
PS
I'm still willing to share "every once in awhile"
I agree you do Not need a counter point to all of what she says. However, you can succinctly say a general statement that counters her arguments such as
"Notwithstanding your claims to the contrary, I think Woof enjoys AND benefits from affirmations I provide as another source of love in his life, etc.....
(PIGPEN now that I think about it, I wonder if there's even a negative to you just dropping out of his life, for the dog I mean. Meaning, can dogs come to FEEL abandoned by an owner? I'm just pondering this now, not sure what I think but it's worth reading about I think. If it were a stepchild, it would concern me.)
She will tune you out if you go on for long or if you do a counter point, which is another reason NOT to bother doing one.
I think the differences between pet owners Can be good for pets, meaning for instance, my h takes our dogs out for runs whereas I throw a ball with them more. Both activities benefit the dog; they're just different. And It's Not as if we train them differently with behavior. (okay I admit it, I DO give them people food when h isn't around....
But keep it short and get to the part about WHEN you want the dog, quickly.
And maybe
down the road, open your mind and heart to the
idea of another dog in your life...there are so many great dogs in need of a home...
I'm NOT saying to give up! But we just lost our oldest dog in March, a very beloved family member.
I was reminded of how short dogs' lives are, relative to ours. So it's not as if you'll never have another dog in your life, ( maybe having another dog would be an asset to your dog, having a play mate??)
I wonder at some point, IF a battle is not winnable, when is it time to move past it?
Just food for thought, okay?
How about this for a reply?
Dear W,
I wasn't going to mention this as I know it'll cause hurt feelings, but actually, I did ask the dog. He chose me.
PigPen
PS
I'm still willing to share "every once in awhile"
Hi PigPen,
I love 25's reply! Hang in there, my friend.
Bob
Tester email. Any thoughts Wonka? Too long?
Sounds like Dog has a great life down in City with you. It feels good to know he’ll be happy wherever he is. I agree that sending him into multiple new environments was probably a bit much for him to handle in MONTH. Fortunately we don’t have to do that again, now he can be between two routines that he knows well and places that he’s familiar with.
I appreciate your email and the reasons why you feel he should end up with you, however I’m simply not ready to have that discussion in earnest right now. I just want him back for a bit.
I want to run around the backyard here with him, take him to BEACH and throw the ball, watch him play with Friend Dog, and lie and bed and read with him. We have a blast together and I take impeccable care of him.
Last time he saw me was over three months ago and I don’t want him to think that I have abandoned him either W. This was important to you in MONTH and it’s important to me now. Since my Spanish is impeccable, I’m also more than happy to chat with him about where he wants to end up.
Two months is a long time I might have gotten ahead of myself there. I’ll take him for two weeks and drop him back off, should give me a good dose of DOG time. If you were to travel and need to drop him somewhere, you would. This is no different. I trusted you with him when I went to X and trusted that I would be able to have him back for a bit when I got home.
I can come down on Friday evening and pick him up from WORK if that’s easiest for you, as well as anytime on Sunday. Please let me know which is more convenient.
Thanks,
PP
PP,
Too much. Too wordy. A tad much too defensive.
A word about "multiple" environments. We are not talking about "multiple" here...it is just your and W's house. Dogs are simply happy as long as they have shelter, food, playtime, and lots of TLC.
Again, whittle it down to one short paragraph.
Ok, will chop stuff off. The reason I put multiple locations in was because when we first separated d.o.g. and I moved into my business partner's house, then back to my house, then into my new sweet studio apt, then down to the house my W was staying in, then back to my studio, then into her condo.
She mentioned that when he moved into the condo he was clingy and upset and wouldn't eat...therefor he should not come back with me this time. I was using the multiple locations comment to dismiss that without going point by point.
I'll knock it down and re post it.
PP
How about this Wonka. You're just like my editor! Every word chopped is like a limb cut from my body but alas...
Hi W,
I just want him back for a bit, I miss him, and again - he’s my dog too. Last time he saw me was over three months ago and I don’t want him to think that I have abandoned him either W. This was important to you and it’s important to me. Since my Spanish is now impeccable, I’m also more than happy to chat with him about where he wants to end up.
Two months is a long time, I get that. I’ll take him for two weeks and drop him back off, should give me a good dose of DOG time. If you were to travel and need to drop him somewhere, you would. This is no different. I can come down on Friday evening and pick him up from WORK, as well as anytime on Sunday. Please let me know which is more convenient.
Thanks,
PP
Hey Pigpen, I'm not trying to be confusing. But to me, below this sounds as if you agree with her reasoning But you "just want him back for a bit."
Is that how you really feel? If so, by all means, make the request of her...to share an animal you both owned.
But if it's Not how you feel, you can still briefly express that and then make a calendar for when the times are most convenient for you both.
Otherwise, you are surrendering and simultaneously "asking" her for time with him, as if its a big favor SHE is doing for you. Is that how you see it?
Was this her dog before you all met or a dog you both got?
She wants out of the marriage and left the family home, is that right? I KNOW she had her reasons, but still, imo, she does Not get to take whatever she wants and then IF she feels generous, she'll toss you a scrap off her table "Every once in awhile"> WTF?
As an Army veteran and wife of, we moved A LOT. I mean, more than 17 times in 24 years. We always had a dog with us. Temporarily we left our lab with an inlaw while we resettled in housing, in Alaska. That was a HUGE change for all of us. The dog LOVED Alaska. She adjusted in 2-3 days.
In short, our dogs felt at home - where we lived! Our family is what made the home and your presence is what "home" is, to your dog, imo.
Mainly I think your note as is, is weak sounding.Sorry.
I'll put something in or delete something and see what Wonka adds and anyone else
How about this Wonka. You're just like my editor! Every word chopped is like a limb cut from my body but alas...
Hi W,
I just want him back for a bit, I miss him, and again -W as you know, he’s my dog too.
I appreciate all your concerns. Truly, I've weighed them carefully. That's why I decided not to ask for him to live with me full time.
However I think the value of the R between 'woof' and me wasn't fully realized at your end. To be clear, my r with woof is VERY important to me, & I do not want to disappear from his life, just b/c we are not together anymore.
So I propose the following dates:
Last time he saw me was over three months ago and I don’t want him to think that I have abandoned him either W. This was important to you and it’s important to me. Since my Spanish is now impeccable, I’m also more than happy to chat with him about where he wants to end up.
Two months is a long time, I get that. I’ll take him for two weeks and drop him back off, should give me a good dose of DOG time. If you were to travel and need to drop him somewhere, you would.
Sorry but I'm not clear on this^^. She would....what??
This is no different. I can come down on Friday evening and pick him up from WORK, as well as anytime on Sunday. Please let me know which is more convenient.
Thanks,
PP
I like the rest.
just my .002
That's it, 25....I was searching for "weak." Yeah, that is how PP's original version came across to me when I first read it. Plus there's some defensiveness in there as well.
So, PP....back to the drawing board.
We await your new updated version.
I would re-work the opening line as it comes across as a "tug of war" here...my dog too. So I would try something different here.
You're almost there, PP.
Thank you both so very much 25 and Wonka. I appreciate you immensely.
I'll get back to it once I get out of work.
Big hugs,
PP
You're both right, it was weak. We got him together, and truthfully he spent most of his time with me.
My W had to sleep with earplugs and a fan on her side of the bed and on many occasions our little special one had to be let out at night, or multiple times a night. This was for years. I got up and let him out every time. No matter that I had to be at work at 5:45 every morning to see clients.
She knows exactly how to talk to me and interact with me to make me feel doing what she wants is the best way to go. I still have a lot of work left in standing up for myself and what I want.
Thank you both again.
PP
Who am I kidding, I'm getting anything done at work today.
Thoughts? My thanks again to you both for giving me your time today.
PP
Hi W,
I read your email and appreciate all your concerns, as well the life he lives with you. Truly, I've weighed this all carefully and that is why I decided not to ask for Woof to live with me full time at this point.
Since my Spanish is impeccable, I’m more than happy to chat with him about where he wants to end up when that time comes. (drop this all together? Leave it in for humor?)
However, I think the value of my relationship with Woof hasn’t been fully realized on your end. To be clear, my relationship with him is VERY important to me, and I do not want to disappear from his life nor him from mine, just because we are not together anymore. Coming to see him once in a while is not an acceptable option.
So I propose the following dates:
7/24 – 8/7 he’s with me.
8/7 – 8/21 he’s with you.
8/22 – 9/4 he’s with me.
9/5 – 9/20 he’s with you.
That’s two weeks with each of us, if you’d like longer stretches for travel convenience; I’m open to it. He now has the ability to go back and forth between two homes and routines that he now knows well.
I can come down on Friday evening and pick him up from WORK, as well as anytime on Sunday. Please let me know which is best.
Thanks,
PP
Hi W,
My relationship with him is VERY important to me, and I do not want to disappear from his life nor him from mine, just because we are not together anymore. Coming to see him once in a while is not an acceptable option.
So I propose the following dates:
7/24 – 8/7 he’s with me.
8/7 – 8/21 he’s with you.
8/22 – 9/4 he’s with me.
9/5 – 9/20 he’s with you.
That’s two weeks with each of us, if you’d like longer stretches for travel convenience; I’m open to it.
I can come down on Friday evening and pick him up from WORK, as well as anytime on Sunday. Please let me know which is best.
Thanks,
PP
PP,
I'm not even sure I want to tag into this round since I'm going to be out of my league against Wonka and 25, but I took out what I think is a bunch of fluff when I quoted above. To me, the other parts seemed to come across as mind reading for some reason, or just plain unnecessary. Perhaps I just like the tone of it better when it's all about you and your needs, and anything to do with her and how she may or may not feel is left off. Either way, just my .02.
I will say however that if your dog's name is Baxter, and he likes cheese, then by all means leave the Spanish portion in there!
Thanks Jedi, I appreciate the input. I woke up and re read her email. It didn't help my detachment to read about how I should be giving up my dog, and all of the reasons whey it's the right decision for everyone involved. And why I should agree to this. And if I do so, how I'll be able to see him a few times a year.
Today is going to be a big breath day, lots of them. Thank god for this forum.
PP,
Help is on the way!
W's Original Response
"I think if we were to ask him (the dog), he'd say he just wants to stay with me. So I hope we can just make this easy. If you agree, you can come down and see him every once in a while." PP's Latest Draft ResponseHi W,
I read your email and appreciate all your concerns, as well the life he lives with you. Truly, I've weighed this all carefully and that is why I decided not to ask for Woof to live with me full time at this point.
Since my Spanish is impeccable, I’m more than happy to chat with him about where he wants to end up when that time comes. (drop this all together? Leave it in for humor?)
However, I think the value of my relationship with Woof hasn’t been fully realized on your end. To be clear, my relationship with him is VERY important to me, and I do not want to disappear from his life nor him from mine, just because we are not together anymore. Coming to see him once in a while is not an acceptable option.
So I propose the following dates:
7/24 – 8/7 he’s with me.
8/7 – 8/21 he’s with you.
8/22 – 9/4 he’s with me.
9/5 – 9/20 he’s with you.
That’s two weeks with each of us, if you’d like longer stretches for travel convenience; I’m open to it. He now has the ability to go back and forth between two homes and routines that he now knows well.
I can come down on Friday evening and pick him up from WORK, as well as anytime on Sunday. Please let me know which is best.
Thanks,
PPWonka's ViewStill too wordy. Keep it short and simple.
Wonka's Original Suggestion"I think it's important that we focus on having some individual time with the dog. As you can imagine, we both love the dog very much...he's a lovable snuggle bug who is our baby. I propose that we come up with a fairly equitable schedule. I would like to pick up the dog and keep him with me for 1 week and then drop him off with you for the next two to three weeks? Naturally, we would ensure that food, toys and other comforts are packed for him. Thoughts? Thanks- PP."I've just added new changes in blue. You can insert the proposed schedule in there. Then close it with your line:
I can come down on Friday evening and pick him up from WORK, as well as anytime on Sunday. Please let me know which is best.
PP, I like this opening line:
I read your email and appreciate all your concerns,
as well the life he lives with you. Truly, I've weighed this all carefully and that is why I decided not to ask for Woof to live with me full time at this point. Are you feeling scared in this situation because you feel the need to protect the dog?
SummaryW,
I read your email and appreciate all your concerns. Are you feeling scared in this situation because you feel the need to protect the dog?
I think it's important that we focus on having some individual quality time with the dogname. As you can imagine, we both love him very much...he's a lovable snuggle bug who is our baby. I propose that we come up with a fairly equitable schedule.
So I propose the following dates:
7/24 – 8/7 he’s with me.
8/7 – 8/21 he’s with you.
8/22 – 9/4 he’s with me.
9/5 – 9/20 he’s with you.
That’s two weeks with each of us, if you’d like longer stretches for travel convenience; I’m open to it.
Naturally, we would ensure that food, toys and other comforts are packed for him. I can come down on Friday evening and pick him up from WORK, as well as anytime on Sunday. Please let me know which is best. Thoughts?
Thanks for listening.
Have a good day.
PP
Beautiful Wonka, I hope someday to give you a giant, but respectful kiss on the cheek!
I'll send this off today and let you know how she replies. Her original email was a full page and a half, loving, flirty, and what do you know...I even got a "Lots of Love, W" as the salutation. So different from the usual "Take care"
I think this is a great mix of understanding, and not being a doormat. My next step is to work on why I feel I should still be a doormat in hopes of getting scraps. When I first read her email it was like I was under a spell, agreeing with everything and thankful that maybe I could get to see him from time to time...lucky me.
You're a huge asset Wonka, I can't tell you enough how grateful I am.
PP
Thanks for the lovely sentiments, PP. I cannot take the full credit for this...25 was a big help as well by pointing out some weak points and accepting "scraps" from W's ah-so 'generous' gesture.
Thank you as well 25!
I sent this off this afternoon. I know it's not what she wants to hear and up until today I have simply gone along with the entire situation.
We shall see.
Now for a night of GAL'ing with a friend, and then a busy day at work tomorrow. Still finding my energy is incredibly low which is more than frustrating, but hopefully that will pass soon.
Today is also my 185th day of complete sobriety. What a gift, if nothing else comes of this separation but heart ache, I will have that for life.
I hope everyone is dealing with the situations with grace.
PP
PP,
185 days?! Wow...that's a great milestone. Keep going, buddy.
Hi Wonka & 25,
I got a reply email. She told me that I didn't address anything in her email and that she's not interested in any kind of joint custody.
It concluded with:
With that being the case there is no need to plan out a two week alternating schedule. So I need to know how you feel about giving him to me. Please give me your thoughts on where you think it would be best for Woof to live and why.
Thoughts? I am not interested in giving him to her. Nor do I really think that any rational argument I make will convince her that it's best for me to have him. I live on an acre property, she's in a condo. He's lived in my town for the last three years, in hers for the last 3 months. That was all overlooked by "if we were to ask him..."
If it needs to come down to a coin toss, that's as far as I'm willing to go. But I don't see either of acquiescing here.
Thoughts?
PP
Pigpen, I'm sorry to hear that. Now, this may be a daft question - but is there any legal position on this? Clearly if your dog was a child there would be....but I'm not sure whether the law assists at all in the case of much loved pets.
Pigpen, I'm sorry to hear that. Now, this may be a daft question - but is there any legal position on this? Clearly if your dog was a child there would be....but I'm not sure whether the law assists at all in the case of much loved pets.
Hi Toots,
Unfortunately, he is considered property. I'm not sure the legalities of it other than that. Judges won't force joint custody for a pet either. I believe the parties can agree joint custody but not have it awarded.
This is a tough one. I believe we'll both give him a great home. But truthfully, he's lived in my town for years and this is his home. I also have a yard.
I'd also be lying if I said that her leaving me didn't effect this. When she left, I felt like she left both of us. I took care of him and had him sleep with me at night. When I dropped him off before my trip it was with the assumption that I would get him back.
Now that she's settled and happy in her decision I don't automatically stop loving him or want to settle for seeing him twice a year.
PP
My DB coach told me that this is an opportunity to change her core beliefs about me. He advised relaying the emotions that her email made me feel, as well as standing my ground, but also reiterating that I was open to collaboration, not just making a decision on my own.
PP
PP,
I read your W's response and my reaction was less than ideal.
Wanted to swing by quickly to tell you that I am thinking of some ways to respond to W's email. I think your DB coach was spot on with his assessment of your sitch.
Right now, I am in the middle of a large proposal that needs to be completed. I trust that our dear friend 25 will swing by soon with her thoughts and offer up some suggestions.
Later on, I'll be back. Right now, there is no need to respond to W's email as this is not an emergency nor require urgent action.
Sit on it. Deliberate over it and we all will come together as a team on how to best respond to W.
Thank you Wonka, I appreciate the time away from the proposal for your comment. As well as your continued support.
I'll sit on it, as well as draft something up to have when to share with you and 25 when the time is right.
PP
PP
Just checking in.
I too agree with Wonka and your DB coach.
I am slightly useful on wording but a little heavy on the dry wit, which won't be useful in your case.
Who paid for woofie?
V
Hi V,
Thank you for checking in. Woofie was free, we found him together before we got married. Everything else about him was split. He's 50/50.
I'm trying to put this to the side for the moment and focus on other things, but it still upsets me. I know I should be detaching further and GAL'ing but it's difficult when it feels like an equitable solution is so easily dismissed.
I had a feeling my W would be upset as she's not used to me standing up for myself and I (mind reading) imagine she thought I'd be ok with everything due to how cordial I've been throughout the whole separation. I was definitely not a good DB'er when she left.
Big hug,
PP
Morning Wonka,
I think I'm ready to tackle this. Thinking about it last week took more of my mental attention that I'd like to admit.
The main points (following my DB coach's lead) that I think I should make are:
- a sense of disappointment over the fact that we aren't collaborating on this issue. That there's a win/win option for everyone and it's being overlooked. That's no good at all.
- a sense of anger of the fact that our original agreement has now been changed, and changed when I should be getting woofie back. Two months for each was what we agreed when I left town, now it's 4 months later. This angers me as I don't believe I should have to ask numerous times.
- a sense of manipulation - I feel like the whole conversation about "if we asked him" and "if I just make it easy and agree then maybe I'll get to see him from time to time" doesn't feel good, it truly does feel like I got the longest and friendliest correspondence in months and it's all about giving up woofie.
- the points about why I feel it's best for him to be here if we do have to make a choice: this was his home for three years, I'm on a large property, she's in a condo. He has other dogs here that he knows and plays with everyday.
- not sure if this one is valid, but also that she left him when she left me. I took care of him everyday after BD even though I was a mess myself. I made sure he had food, got played with, went to the park, got his meds, everything. She was living with a friend, going out on the town, and not interested if he was ok. She left our town and him but now wants him back. To me that's selfish.
Those are the points I'd like to get out. I've written a two page reply but know that it was a just a brain dump full of emotion and not so pleasant thoughts as well.
Thanks,
PP
Going back to basics this week DB'ers. Last week was a bit of a mess dealing with all of this. Again, those of you with kids, my god the strength you must have to deal with this all. I've dreamed of my dog all week.
Basics. Basics. Basics. Today I woke up and meditated. Then ate breakfast. Then journaled. THEN logged onto the internet and started my day.
Went to GAL this weekend, all excited. Some guys took me fishing...unfortunately they parked the boat right off shore from the hotel where I spent the first night of my honeymoon a few years ago. Thank you for that one Universe!
Not to be deterred though, I've committed to not turning down any invitations this week. Lately I've been spending WAY too much time holed up in my apartment being miserable. GAL, GAL, GAL.
Hope everyone has a solid week.
BASICS.
Morning Wonka,
I think I'm ready to tackle this. Thinking about it last week took more of my mental attention that I'd like to admit.
The main points (following my DB coach's lead) that I think I should make are:
- a sense of disappointment over the fact that we aren't collaborating on this issue. That there's a win/win option for everyone and it's being overlooked. That's no good at all.
- a sense of anger of the fact that our original agreement has now been changed, and changed when I should be getting woofie back. Two months for each was what we agreed when I left town, now it's 4 months later. This angers me as I don't believe I should have to ask numerous times.
- a sense of manipulation - I feel like the whole conversation about "if we asked him" and "if I just make it easy and agree then maybe I'll get to see him from time to time" doesn't feel good, it truly does feel like I got the longest and friendliest correspondence in months and it's all about giving up woofie.
- the points about why I feel it's best for him to be here if we do have to make a choice: this was his home for three years, I'm on a large property, she's in a condo. He has other dogs here that he knows and plays with everyday.
- not sure if this one is valid, but also that she left him when she left me. I took care of him everyday after BD even though I was a mess myself. I made sure he had food, got played with, went to the park, got his meds, everything. She was living with a friend, going out on the town, and not interested if he was ok. She left our town and him but now wants him back. To me that's selfish.
Those are the points I'd like to get out. I've written a two page reply but know that it was a just a brain dump full of emotion and not so pleasant thoughts as well.
Thanks,
PP
Hiya, PP. M'kay...I am ready when you are!
Why don't you get started on a draft and post here for some feedback.
Ok, it's probably a tad long, but I got it all out! 2x4 away if you need to Wonka, I'm in this for the knowledge as much as the dog.
"This is extremely upsetting W, I am trying to work with you. Not against you - nor push things to a hasty resolution that could leave one of us unnecessarily hurt.
Are you afraid that if I have dog back for a bit I won’t return him to you? Didn’t I grant you the same trust when I left him with you before going to Central America? Aren’t you now breaking it?
This is two separate issues in my mind:
Why I’m continuing to have to ask to see my dog. And why you are making that difficult/impossible for me right now.
2) Where dog will end up for good.
What I was trying to do was make it so that neither of us has to lose dog - despite this being your decision to break us up - at least not right now. What I was trying to do was collaborate - work WITH you - not control the outcome, not try to make things come out in my favor. But dog enjoys both of us, not just you.
You’re also the one saying we have to decide today where he stays for good - and do so now. It feels like you’re being controlling by keeping him from me even now. He is my dog too W, why am I having to ask repeatedly to spend time with him? Who granted you that power?
Dog was traumatized by our separation and having to live in multiple houses without stability, I’ll agree with you on that. It was traumatizing for all of us. Now we’re talking about him living in the same houses and the same routines. He’ll be fine and to say otherwise is push your agenda, not what’s in the best interest of dog.
I hear what you’re saying - you want to keep dog. I heard that when I got back from C.A. I also told you the exact same thing and feel the exact same way.
It’s very hurtful to think that you think I am able to put my extremely strong feelings for him in a box and ask me to reduce them to an emotionless decision that I have to make based upon your timeline and a few points in an email.
I love dog, he is my dog too, I don’t want to not be a part of his life nor have him not be a part of mine. I think about him every day. He was part of my everyday life up until three months ago. EVERYDAY. How do you feel about dog, W? That’s how I feel about him too. I see this from your perspective. I know you don’t want to give dog up.
It makes me angry to have you ask me to minimize these feelings down to nonsense like “if we were to ask dog ” and an upbeat email where we can “make it easy” if I give him to you. You will allow me to see him from time to time if I agree? I’m not interested in your scraps W.
No, I am not interested in just giving dog to you for good right now. And if you want to know where I think it’s best for him - it’s here.
CITY is dog's home. He lived here for TWO YEARS. He’s lived in W's City for three months now. I’m on an acre property here - you live in a condo. That combination should be the end of the conversation if we were truly basing this off of “what is best for Woofie.” Two years vs three months. Condo vs. acre of land.
I know how amazingly he and dog BFF get along and played together every day. Is there a dog BFF that dog has two years of history with? This is his home, he is familiar with this town, the hikes, and the beaches. He knows them well. I do not live on W's Road nor anywhere else with 60 mile an hour traffic.
When dog needed to be let out at night dozens and dozens of times when we were together, I got up and took care of him. You slept, not all, but most nights not even knowing he needed assistance. When you left our marital home, I took care of him. During that time I played with him every day, I comforted him, I took him to the beach, I fed him, I clipped his nails, I gave him flea meds. I stayed and took care of him. You did not.
You left our marriage W, and CITY. dog was part of both. When you left me, you left him. When you left City, you left him. When you walk away from your life, you leave things behind. You walked away and left dog behind.
Now that he should be returned to me per our prior agreement - we now have to decide where he stays forever. And low and behold that’s while he’s with you. Do you not see that this is out of alignment with everything you say you stand for?
Why can’t this be a win/win for everyone involved W? And why does his final destination have to be decided right now - just because you want to? What’s the harm in making that final decision down the road? Why do we have to follow your timeline here? Why do I? My life is still evolving, why can’t I see how things are going to pan out for the rest of the year and then speak honestly with you about what’s best for dog then?
If I am headed somewhere that is not better for dog than being with you, I have told you I would happily give him to you then - for good. I still stand by that.
But since you want one decision on where I think it’s best for him - it’s clearly here, in his home, in CITY.
Sincerely,
PP
A "tad" long...that's one big understatement right there, PP.
This is a start.
You need to whittle it down to 2 to 3 paragraphs. Whip out your Sharpie pen and cross out those that contain guilt-inducing statements or digs.
The "why" questions near the bottom of your first draft is very confusing and they all go off in different tangents. It won't win you any clarity points if you go down that road.
Hints for the next draft:
-Write down the "meat" of your discussion...a value proposition, if you will (in business speak)
-State your disappointment
-State reasons why a joint custody is the best way to approach it
-Write out "win" for W/write out "win" for PP
-Write out past history of dog (two sentences)...how you cared for him without any issues or danger
Look at it from a perspective as making a business case for a joint custody of dog. Leave out emotions out of it such as guilt-inducing comments and digs.
And comments like "pushing your agenda" isn't going to make W want to work with you on this. Zip it.
Now back to the drawing board for Draft #2.
Will do Wonka, thank you. Figured there was some vomit that needed to get wiped away.
PP
There is still merit in writing a letter like this, for you. It lets you know what is important about your sitch and in no uncertain terms as well.
Very cathartic and for your eyes only (and the hundreds who read your thread!).
V
Thanks V. The upsetting part for me is that my side of the situation does not seem to be seen. I know that I'm still looking to my W for something and I believe it's this - to be seen, to be heard, and to have that factor into this decision.
It doesn't feel like it's been a factor throughout the entire separation - quite the opposite. I am not happier than I was before - I'm happy differently, I do not believe the S is a good thing although good has come of it. I have changed my life drastically and have created immense benefit from the S, but credit is not the S's, it's mine for taking those steps.
I need to detach from needing to get this from my W or needing anything from her, but it's my challenge still and something that I'm working on.
Ok Wonka, round 2: And man oh man, is there more that I want to say!
This is extremely upsetting W, I am really trying to work with you. Not against you - nor push things to a hasty resolution that could leave one of us unnecessarily hurt. There is a way that this can be a win/win for us both and Woofie. It also feels like we’re dangerously close to having this turn into a power struggle and I’d like to avoid that at all costs.
Woofie was traumatized by our initial separation and having to live in multiple houses (list of 5 houses he stayed at during our initial separation) without stability, I’ll agree with you on that. It was traumatizing for all of us. When he was displaying signs of distress to you, he was in a brand new home in a brand new city, of course he was clingy. Now we’re talking about the homes and routines that he knows well at this point. (This is the basis of her argument for not co-parenting Wonka....it's too traumatic on the dog)
I also hear what you’re saying - you want to keep Woofie. I heard that when I got back from XY. I also told you the exact same thing and feel the exact same way.
It’s disappointing to believe that you think I am able to put my extremely strong feelings for him in a box and ask me to dissociate from them to the point where I can make a decision based upon your timeline and a few points in an email. It makes me angry to have you ask me to minimize these feelings and rush all of this. I love Woofie, he is my dog, I don’t want to not be a part of his life nor have him not be a part of mine - nor be a part of yours. I think about him every day. He was part of my everyday life up until three months ago.
No, I am not interested in just giving Woofie to you for good right now (this is the direct question she has asked me to answer Wonka). Where is it best for him - it’s here.
My city is Woofie's home. He lived here for two years. He’s lived in W's city for three months now. I’m on an acre property here - you live in a condo. He is familiar with this town, the hikes, and the beaches and has playmates that he's known for years. I do not live on Main Thoroghfare nor anywhere else with 60 mile an hour traffic.
When Woofie needed to be let out at night dozens and dozens of times when we were together, I got up and took care of him. When you left, I played with him every day, I comforted him, I took him to the beach, I fed him, I clipped his nails, I gave him flea meds. I stayed and took impeccable care of him, when I could barely take care of myself. You commented on this yourself.
I still believe that co-parenting is the best for everyone invovled, including Woofie. If you want one decision on where I think it’s best for him though - it’s clearly here, in his home, in my City.
Pig Pen, just wanted to relate to your desire to be understood.
For a long time I had imaginary conversations with WAW in my mind in which I'd make my points, or explain myself. And sometimes I'd then play her role of the exchange as well. Until little by little I realized STBX and I hadn't actually had any kind of communication for so long I was flat out talking to myself.
There's a really good chance I'll never be open emotionally with STBX again and never say anything deeper than 'running 10 mins late' in the days ahead. Now that I've accepted that it's gotten much easier. WAW hasn't expressed any interest in any thoughts of mine for the last year plus, and she continues to try to exert her preferences on many things...defining what she feels is 'fair' without asking me for example...but now I see her for what she is and I'm not interested in playing, or giving her power to wreck the wonderful life I have.
You'll get there. Keep going.
Thanks V. The upsetting part for me is that my side of the situation does not seem to be seen. I know that I'm still looking to my W for something and I believe it's this - to be seen, to be heard, and to have that factor into this decision.
It doesn't feel like it's been a factor throughout the entire separation - quite the opposite. I am not happier than I was before - I'm happy differently, I do not believe the S is a good thing although good has come of it. I have changed my life drastically and have created immense benefit from the S, but credit is not the S's, it's mine for taking those steps.
I need to detach from needing to get this from my W or needing anything from her, but it's my challenge still and something that I'm working on.
WOW....Pigpen!! Just Wow! I have read some powerful things on this board, but that above^^^^^^^^^^^took my breath away. I haven't posted on your thread ever, and I hope you don't mind that I do now, but I just had to post. This is unbelievably authentic, you can just feel it in every word, every phrase.
I have watch your sitch unfold from the sidelines not feeling I could add anything of value. But the above needs to be fully acknowledged. You are quite the inspiration.
Thank you for everything you share. Wishing you light and love and the outcome your heart desires.
Jellybxxx
^^ agree with this. The pain and suffering of losing our spouses is difficult but we manage to use a chit situation and make the best of it to better ourselves. We could easily allow this to consume us and make our lives worse, let it wash over us and be miserable. But, we decide life is worth living and we make the most of ourselves. You're doing just that PP,you should be proud of that.
Pig Pen, just wanted to relate to your desire to be understood.
For a long time I had imaginary conversations with WAW in my mind in which I'd make my points, or explain myself. And sometimes I'd then play her role of the exchange as well. Until little by little I realized STBX and I hadn't actually had any kind of communication for so long I was flat out talking to myself.
There's a really good chance I'll never be open emotionally with STBX again and never say anything deeper than 'running 10 mins late' in the days ahead. Now that I've accepted that it's gotten much easier. WAW hasn't expressed any interest in any thoughts of mine for the last year plus, and she continues to try to exert her preferences on many things...defining what she feels is 'fair' without asking me for example...but now I see her for what she is and I'm not interested in playing, or giving her power to wreck the wonderful life I have.
You'll get there. Keep going.
Thanks Z, I always appreciate your input. I know it's a process to completely detach from someone who's opinion was the most important one for so many years.
Glad to hear that you're in such a good place right now.
Thanks V. The upsetting part for me is that my side of the situation does not seem to be seen. I know that I'm still looking to my W for something and I believe it's this - to be seen, to be heard, and to have that factor into this decision.
It doesn't feel like it's been a factor throughout the entire separation - quite the opposite. I am not happier than I was before - I'm happy differently, I do not believe the S is a good thing although good has come of it. I have changed my life drastically and have created immense benefit from the S, but credit is not the S's, it's mine for taking those steps.
I need to detach from needing to get this from my W or needing anything from her, but it's my challenge still and something that I'm working on.
WOW....Pigpen!! Just Wow! I have read some powerful things on this board, but that above^^^^^^^^^^^took my breath away. I haven't posted on your thread ever, and I hope you don't mind that I do now, but I just had to post. This is unbelievably authentic, you can just feel it in every word, every phrase.
I have watch your sitch unfold from the sidelines not feeling I could add anything of value. But the above needs to be fully acknowledged. You are quite the inspiration.
Thank you for everything you share. Wishing you light and love and the outcome your heart desires.
Jellybxxx
Thank you Jelly, truly for this message. I'm realizing both the layers and depth of DB'ing and the necessity for it in my own situation. Removal of my addictions was easy in comparison to honestly looking at what was underneath them. That is truly terrifying, humbling, and hopefully most healing.
You are welcome to post anytime, your message warmed my otherwise quiet fragile heart this morning.
^^ agree with this. The pain and suffering of losing our spouses is difficult but we manage to use a chit situation and make the best of it to better ourselves. We could easily allow this to consume us and make our lives worse, let it wash over us and be miserable. But, we decide life is worth living and we make the most of ourselves. You're doing just that PP,you should be proud of that.
Thank you Fogg, I am proud. More so than I've been of myself in a long time. I have two friends that are also going through D's at the moment. Both have shown me examples of what the non-DB approach to D is: drugs, drinking constantly, sleeping with everything that moves, FB arguments with their W's, childish behavior and worse.
It's taken me almost 8 months to realize in my core that if you work the DB process, you will be more than ok at the outcome of your situation, but only if you work it honestly.
I appreciate you stopping by.
PP,
Moving closer to the final draft. I am going to ask you try this:
Imagine for a moment that you are me and have the Ms. Wonka hat on here. What would you think I would write in response to your W? Go on...try it.
Take your second draft and use the Wonka magnifying glass to scrutinize it for further changes, additions, improvements and deletions.
More hints:
-drop defensiveness
-do not reinforce the negatives by mentioning them
-focus and praise competency/ability on both sides
-find areas of common/mutual agreement
-a furbaby is no different from a human child
I have two friends that are also going through D's at the moment. Both have shown me examples of what the non-DB approach to D is: drugs, drinking constantly, sleeping with everything that moves, FB arguments with their W's, childish behavior and worse.
I'm proud of you PP for taking the high road and working on being the best you can be. Drugs, drinking, and sleeping around aren't the answer.
I'm on it Wonka, I'll put my Ms. Wonka hat on and get back to it. Thank you again for your patience and tutelage.
Teach - thank you very much. I actually feel for these guys. I know I'm struggling but I know at some point I'll come out of it. I'm not sure they ever will. Or if they do what kind of shape they'll be in. It's honestly sad to see. This board was the best thing I could have found for developing a track.
Hi Wonka, this is my best effort with my Ms. Wonka hat on. Still doesn't feel like I'm holding my ground though. Especially since she's told me that she's not interested in co-parenting.
Here it is:
I am trying to work with you, W. Not against you - nor push things to a hasty resolution that could leave one of us unnecessarily hurt. There is a way that this can be a win/win for us both and Woofie, as we’re talking about homes and routines that he knows well at this point.
I also hear what you’re saying - you want to keep Woofie. I feel the same way.
It’s disappointing to have to put my extremely strong feelings for him in a box and to dissociate from them to the point where I can make a decision based upon an email. It makes me angry to have to minimize these feelings and rush all of this. I love Woofie, I don’t want to not be a part of his life nor have him not be a part of mine - nor have him not be a part of yours.
I am not interested in just giving Woofie to you for good right now - I don’t think that’s best for anyone. (this is the direct question she has asked me to answer Wonka. Will you give him to me and if not, why should he stay with you?). Where is it best for him - it’s here.
My city is Woofie's home. He lived here for two years. He’s lived in W's city for three months now. I’m on an acre property here - you live in a condo. He is familiar with this town, the hikes, and the beaches and has playmates that he's known for years. I do not live on Main Thoroghfare nor anywhere else with 60 mile an hour traffic.
We both take care of Woofie as if he were our child - in essence, he is. I know how well he lives with you and how much you love him, I am grateful for that. I know how well he lives with me too. When I had him early in the year I played with him every day, he slept in bed with me, I took him to the beach, I fed him, I clipped his nails, I gave him flea meds. I took impeccable care of him. You commented on this yourself before I left for XY.
I still believe that co-parenting is the best for everyone involved, including Woofie. If that's not an option, I believe he should be here.
I also hear what you’re saying - you want to keep Woofie. I feel the same way.
I still believe that co-parenting is the best for everyone involved, including Woofie. If that's not an option, I believe he should be here.
-------------------------
I like these paragraphs but would drop the also in the first and still and I believe in the last.
I am interested in the final version too.
V
Thank you V. What a process to simply get to see my dog. Peeves me to no end.
That being said, Wonka making me rewrite three times has shown me the places in my thinking that needed to be changed.
PP,
Let's dissect your latest draft together...shall we?
________________________________
I am trying to work with you, W. Not against you - nor push things to a hasty resolution that could leave one of us unnecessarily hurt. There is a way that this can be a win/win for us both and Woofie, as we’re talking about homes and routines that he knows well at this point. Try not to confuse things here. I would leave this last part out. You want to be on point here....cooperation from both of you on this matter.
I also hear what you’re saying - you want to keep Woofie. I feel the same way.
It’s disappointing to have to put my extremely strong feelings for him in a box and to dissociate from them to the point where I can make a huge decision based upon an email. It makes me angry to have to minimize these feelings and rush all of this. By making this type of statement, you are removing yourself from the emotion. I would suggest "I feel...xxxx when you xxxxx. I would re-word this part. I would re I love Woofie, I don’t want to not be a part of his life nor have him not be a part of mine - nor have him not be a part of yours. Again, I would re-word to make it "we"...strong common interest here.
I am not interested in just giving Woofie to you for good right now - I don’t think that’s best for anyone. (this is the direct question she has asked me to answer Wonka. Will you give him to me and if not, why should he stay with you?). Where is it best for him - it’s here.
My city is Woofie's home. He lived here for two years. He’s lived in W's city for three months now. I’m on an acre property here - you live in a condo. He is familiar with this town, the hikes, and the beaches and has playmates that he's known for years. I do not live on Main Thoroghfare nor anywhere else with 60 mile an hour traffic. This whole section is a non-starter as you are arguing WHY your place is "better" than W's and it will not draw her closer to an agreement. I'd jettison this whole section altogether. Frankly, dogs really don't care where they sleep as long as they have access to food, shelter and loving care by humans.
We both take care of Woofie as if he were our child - in essence, he is. I know how well he lives with you and how much you love him, I am grateful for that. I know how well he lives with me too. When I had him early in the year I played with him every day, he slept in bed with me, I took him to the beach, I fed him, I clipped his nails, I gave him flea meds. I took impeccable care of him. You commented on this yourself before I left for XY.
I still believe that co-parenting is the best for everyone involved, including Woofie. If that's not an option, I believe he should be here. You don't want to present an "option" here for W to shoot down. No way! I would suggest that you end it a bit stronger by stating that Woofie benefits by having interactions with each parent like a human child since he has been with you two from puppyhood. It is the only right thing to do here.
Here's a link to an old thread of mine
Pretty in Pink that contains a wealth of information on how Ms. Wonka and I exchanged emails on some sensitive topics. I thought you would get some insightful ideas on how I compose my emails and responses from a respectful standpoint.
Yah, all of that wasn't easy at all.
Am reading your Pretty in Pink thread Wonka. You are a master of direct communication, I have much to learn in this area. Where did you begin?
It was hard to read of your struggles back then and remember you've been in our shoes with your own broken heart. I'm sorry you had to go through all of that.
I'll get right on this in the morning, but am sending you a big hug tonight. Thank you for your time, attention, and for sharing your thread.
Borrowed the opening line from one of your letters Wonka, here's part 3: My only reservation (and it's probably my own programming) is that I'm not addressing the aspects she brought up in her last message and then asked me to address. But then again, I don't have to play by her rules in getting my reply out.
PP
Here it is:
"It took me a long time to respond to your email as I’ve put a considerable amount of thought into this. I am trying to work with you, W. Not against you - nor push things to a hasty resolution that could leave one of us unnecessarily hurt. There is a way that this can be a win/win for us both and Woofie, There is a way for none of us to be hurt.
I hear what you’re saying - you want to keep Woofie. I feel the same way.
I feel disappointed and angry that I have to make a rushed decision about Woofie, one that does not take into account the immense feelings I have for him. I love Woofie, I want him to be part of both of our lives, and both of us have him as part our lives - even if we're not together.
I am not interested in just giving Woofie to you for good right now - I don’t think that’s best for anyone. Where is it best for him - it’s here. (Should I drop the “it’s here”.?)
We both take care of Woofie as if he were our child - in essence, he is. I know how well he lives with you and how much you love him, I am grateful for that. When I had him early in the year I played with him every day, he slept in bed with me, I took him to the beach, I fed him, I clipped his nails, I gave him flea meds. I took impeccable care of him. You commented on this yourself before I left for XY.
I feel that co-parenting is the best for everyone involved, including Woofie. He’s grown up with both of us, loves both of us, and is not fair to him to have one of us removed from his life. It’s the right thing to do for everyone involved.
PP,
This third draft is vastly better than the first one...wouldn't you agree? So pleased with your efforts here. You're making good progress here.
Let me offer some comments here:
________________________
It took me a long time to respond to your email as I’ve put a considerable amount of thought into this. I am trying to work with you, W. Not against you - nor push things to a hasty resolution that could leave one of us unnecessarily hurt. There is a way that this can be a win/win for us both and Woofie, There is a way for none of us to be hurt.
I hear what you’re saying - you want to keep Woofie. I feel the same way.
I feel disappointed and angry that I have to make a rushed decision about Woofie, one that does not take into account the immense feelings I have for him. I love Woofie, I want him to be part of both of our lives, and both of us have him as part our lives - even if we're not together.
I am not interested in just giving Woofie to you for good right now - I don’t think that’s best for anyone. Where is it best for him - it’s here. (Should I drop the “it’s here”.?)
This is a "no" in so many words and I promise that W won't hear the rest of the message afterward. Ditch it.
We both take care of Woofie as if he were our child - in essence, he is. I know how well he lives with you and how much you love him, I am grateful for that. When I had him early in the year I played with him every day, he slept in bed with me, I took him to the beach, I fed him, I clipped his nails, I gave him flea meds. I took impeccable care of him. You commented on this yourself before I left for XY.
I feel that co-parenting is the best for everyone involved, including Woofie. He’s grown up with both of us, loves both of us, and is not fair to him to have one of us removed from his life. It’s the right thing to do for everyone involved.
Let's put aside our own pain and focus on our connection with Woofie. Again, I want to see Woofie 2 weeks out of the month. This is a reasonable request that satisfies our desire to spend time with Woofie individually.
I appreciate you listening to me. We need to be patient with each other as this is a new territory for us. All I am asking for is your understanding that I am attempting to keep the lines of communication open between us about Woofie.
Thanks,
PP
If I could literally reach through the computer and hug you I would Wonka. Respectfully.
PP
Email sent. We'll see what comes of it. I just reread the reply sent me last stating she was not interested in co parenting. Me asking again for that will most definitely upset her, but I'm not concerned about that any more.
Thank you again to Wonka for helping me lay everything out in a friendly and direct manner.
GAL update for the week - been meditating and writing. Had a small injury in the gym today but hopefully it won't take long to resolve itself. Working out is keeping me sane, so I'll be bummed if keeps me out for too long. Will be seeing the chiropractor tonight to have it adjusted.
PP
I don't have any pets so I cant fully relate, but this entire process of watching the email being rewritten is always interesting. Its great to get that resource here.
Hope you and W can work out an agreement with Woofie that works for you both
Thanks Fogg, we'll see. At least I get to feel like my strong stance is being consistently held and that it includes her. I see both the power of Wonka's word choices and the DB principles in the email creation.
Why does my W get to decide that co-parenting isn't an option? Just because she said so in an email?
DB principles say figure out what you want and feel you deserve. Communicate that in a strong and respectful manner.
Wonka's principles - don't write what you think and feel, write what will get you the outcome that you want. That was rather mind blowing.
Hi Wonka,
Just want to let you know that I got a reply from my W. She's asked to sit on my email for a few days and then get back to me next week. The last one I sent her received an immediate and less than happy reply so I'm tipping my hat humbly to you yet again.
Will let you know what happens.
Would you mind passing on a resource to me on communication like that? Is it more of an emotional maturity issue? Or a writing style? or both?
Thank you.
PP
PP,
Fingers crossed.
I think good things are coming your way.
To answer your questions, I think it's a combination of all those factors you mentioned. I am, by nature, an analytical person. As for the emotional maturity, I think it is more of EI (emotional intelligence) than anything that characterizes my communications.
I'd like to think that books recommended by various DBers over the years has contributed to the way I communicate nowadays. Also have incorporated some business communications that focuses on clarity.
In regard to communication and listening techniques, I am a big believer of Marshall Rosenberg's
Nonviolent Communication principles. (Rosbenberg also does small booklets such as "We Can Work It Out" etc.) The other valuable resource I've benefited tremendously from are books by Michael P. Nichols,
The Lost Art of Listening and
People Skills: How To Assert Yourself, Listen To Others, and Resolve Conflicts by Robert Bolton.
One other book worth reading is called
The A to Z Of Being Understood: Make Your Voice Heard and Your Conversations Count by Kay White. This particular book I discovered on my own outside of DB and boy am I glad for this book!
Hope this helps.
In my mind, these ^^ books dovetails nicely with DBing.
About a month ago, I got another Gary Chapman book (original author of
5 Love Languages) that focuses on conflict resolution approaches titled
Everybody Wins. Good stuff in there.
I want to say that I don't presume to speak for MWD, but I suspect that she is all for improved listening and conflict resolution resources that supplements DBing. From my perspective, these books ^^ would be a good starting point for improved connections.
Thank you very much, sincerely.
I'll add Everybody Wins to my immediate list and the others shortly after. So many books to read in this adventure. So many.
One of the best things that I've found from sobriety is my re falling in love with reading. Truly a lost love returned.
Big hug Wonka,
PP
I found Suzette Elgins book How to disagree without being disagreeable very useful.
Also needed a book on grammar together with punctuation and I absolutely adored Eats Shoots and Leaves the funniest treaty on saying it badly. I laughed out loud.
V
Thank you V, I appreciate the books. I could quit my job and read 8 hours a day for the rest of the year and still not get through my current reading list!
Thank you BD for showing me so clearly that there was a huge lack of understanding in my life.
Hope everyone has a peaceful weekend filled with GAL, and that little bits of joy manage to quietly sneak into your lives.
PP
PP, it was my intuition that knowledge, learning and your personal journey would be linked. That having awareness in your toolkit would be one of the keys to detaching. The important thing is you took the road to self discovery and all the knowledge is useless unless it's applied. That's all you. Have some fun books too and perhaps some children's books, have you seen Inside Out yet?
Plus you give great hugs when I needed them, and support too.
I wished I had learned the importance of understanding this earlier in life (although not through a BD) just through a realisation of some kind. I now believe I have been sleep walking my way through life. My mum always used to say "V wake up and live in the real world'. Better late than never, once you know you cannot unknow. I am awake in the real world.
Onwards and upwards
V
Totally thought you were an old poster returned incognito.
Welcome aboard. Sorry you're here.
I will post an answer here - don't worry about it one way or another IMHO
Best to keep mouth shut for all concerned.
Wow, PP! I just caught up on your whole sitch! You are a rock star!
For my two cents, I would fight for either of my dogs. They are my children too.
You're in my thoughts,
E
PP waiting for an update my friend.
V
Hello PigPen! Thank you for your post in my thread. I’m playing “catch-up” on many situations and it sounds like you are going through a rough time but handling it very well. Please hang in there and GAL, GAL, GAL. While you are doing that, try your best to stay in the present and also keep a positive attitude.
As Sandi wrote earlier today, “I know how cold and ugly a WW's heart can become. I also know it is possible to change. It takes time for some things to take place. There is a time for all things.” How inspirational!!
Wonka, as always, has stepped up big-time. I feel the same way as you do. If I could hug her (respectfully as a friend) through the computer, I would.
You can do this and I want you to know I’ve got your back.
Take care!
Bob
Hey PigPen, just wanted to let you know you're on a good path. I know you've been a fan of mine, I want to say thanks for that. I don't need followers, but it's pretty profound to be part of the support on this board.
I just posted on 4mykids thread talking about timelines, and I just realized you're kind of in the second stage of your journey (the first stage being when we are still clinging to a lot of hope that our sitch will turn around).
It's both tougher and easier. It's easier because the worst is probably over. You've said yourself you wouldn't go back, and that you're grateful for your sobriety, and that you're proud of yourself for the first time in a while (AS ARE WE!). But it's also harder...because as addicts, we like to get what we want when we want it! And when we discover that we can DB until the cows come home and it may be too late for WAS to care, and that we might not live happily ever after...it can be tough. I mean, when you first start staying sober you're like, "Yeah, I'll just live in reality, I can do this!", but that's because you forget how tough reality can be.
So I know it will be really hard on you at times right now. The worst is over in terms of sleepless nights, inability to breathe, etc...but now comes the hangover...the long aftermath after the initial hopes and enthusiasm die off, and the reality kicks in that there is going to be a lot of pain to work through, and some permanent losses, and some grey skies. God bless, PigPen, I've never been through anything so hard.
I guess I'm writing this because while I'm not worried about you relapsing, or disappearing off the boards, or anything like that...shoot, you haven't said you feel any of these ways, this is just me projecting...but I really wanted to make sure you knew that I know how hard it is, and that I'm really rooting you on. I don't just want you to become an H only a fool would leave. I want you to become so solid on your own feet you would think twice before R with a woman that left you (read my last post on Sandi's thread).
Keep going!
PP ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Bob
Thinking about you PP and offering a big Hug.
V
Thank you for all of the check ins and love everyone. V, E, Bob, Zues, much appreciated. I'm headed into work in a minute so I'm just going to put down a general update.
The last two weeks have been tough, ever since the skipped MC meeting and the BS about my dog, I've really swallowed just how "over" my M is. At this point I see no chance of reconciliation and still waiver on whether I'd be open for it myself. Cadet's line when I first joined about the LBS being the one that eventually makes the decision is starting to hit home.
On BD, I thought it was all about my, my addictions, my lack of emotional maturity, and my issues. If I could get those all sorted out, then we'd have clear sailing from then on. I have gotten those issues handled (day 197 today), have worked the programs, have put the time and honesty in with my IC, and could list all of the ways that my life is different now. Not only different, but also all of the communication levels, and emotional interactions that I no longer tolerate, not just in myself, but in those I deal with. How eight months of hell have literally changed my DNA.
This past weekend I spent the day with the employees of our company and my business partner on an appreciation day for them. I was the only sober one out of the group, which was not my usual role with this crew of people. The pull was there, but it wasn't just to have a few beers, or smoke a joint with them. It was to be back in my old life. One where I did have a few beers, smoke a joint with my team, but more importantly - to try to find joy in that life. I felt the pull of 70% happy. I felt the little voice say, "You can make a life out of this business, you can live like this forever. 70% happy is better than most people dream of."
However, the louder voice said, "70% happy is not good enough. 70% happy led to addiction, lying, and two lives because it was not good enough then. Don't for a second fool yourself that it will somehow be good enough now. Especially now."
So I didn't. As hard as it was not to stay sober, but to realize that the life I built for myself prior to BD and my whole world imploding was not ever going to be good enough moving forward. That whole life was my round peg to that square hole. It was tough because it means a rebuild, and I'm (censored) tired after the last eight months! But it's also exciting because the little glimpse I feel from time to time of the life I'm going to be living moving forward is exhilarating.
On some level I'm beginning to think that my W is also a square hole. Or at least my M was. It wasn't just about my addictions, it wasn't just about my LL or communication style, it wasn't all me but me trying to fit into 70% happy in my relationship, and on a very real level, my W doing the same thing only realizing this a lot sooner and pulling the plug because she didn't have the same numbing agents that I had so she felt the pain long before I could even recognize it. I feel for her and her experience of our M. I'm sorry for it. My truest desire is for her to be fulfilled in her own life. We both deserve that.
That's how I feel today anyway, if things follow the usual emotional course I'm sure I'll be back on here in an hour professing my undying love for her and how much I miss her. I do miss her. I just don't miss my old life with her.
What a mind (censored) this whole process is.
Have a good week fellow DB'ers, it's a brand new one filled with endless possibilities. May they be peaceful, pain easing, and maybe even sprinkled with bits of joy.
PP
Relax, your WAW has her timetable. This is a journey.
Sweetness you have the ultimate precious gift of time, take it.
The absolute worst is over! You are becoming. Fretting won't assist, serenity will.
Go with the flow, let it unfurl. It will be. It is enough to be PP.
You PP are becoming the best you can be, relax let it happen. Go with the program let your higher power in further. You see that artificial highs and lows are artificial and addictive.
You can ask no more or less of PP to be free to be, I am so proud of you.
V
PP, what great introspection you have in your post! I am so proud of the decisions that you have made, but more so that you are proud of yourself. You should be. Faced with a situation that is frustrating, non fulfilling, and pain filled, then faced with an easy slide back into 70%, you chose the healthier choice for PP.
Yea!!
I am glad to know you on here and to follow your inspirational journey.
*hugs*
E
Thank you V & E. I have to admit that I got a tiny bit flustered after seeing two responses from the board's most prominent ladies! Thank you both for your replies. They help me a lot.
I can definitely relate to Zeus's concept of a "hangover". I believe I'm in the DB version of a hangover for sure. I feel like my adrenals are fried after these last eight months and tasks that usually take an hour take two days.
Even knowing that this week my W will be responding to Wonka's masterful email regarding my dog, I'm feeling completely blah. I'm not looking forward to her reply either way right now. Not looking forward to it meaning, I don't really care which way it goes. If I get him back for a bit, great, if not, oh well.
V, you are correct, I was also addicted to the back and forth between my W and I over this last month. The anger as well as the anticipation were fueling me. Now I just feel a malaise.
However, I'll take this malaise over the deep depression of a few weeks ago and the panic driven mania of the start of BD. It's more of an "Ok, this is life from now on. Let's just hangout here for a bit and gather up some energy before thinking about hitting home runs again."
This is my PMA for today. Life's going to be amazing again, but right now it's a time to rest a bit, recharge, really detach, and just be ok with being ok.
One thing about post BD and sobriety is that my gut has gotten a lot more in tune.
After asking for my dog back I had a feeling that my W's response would be to bring up filing. And she has. I'll post some of the email later to get Wonka's take on a response, but essentially she asked for us to start a Summary Dissolution. I'm not sure if we qualify for it given some of our financial aspects, but her intention is clear - the time has come to finalize everything.
She did ask me again if I was taking our dog's needs into account or just playing off of my own needs. One sentence at the end of a longer email.
Probably in my best interest to speak with an attorney huh? We don't have any property together or children but we both have businesses. Mine was started prior to us getting married and hers was started during out marriage.
Not the best day of the week for me, but not as crushing as it would have been without all of the detaching of late.
Sorry to read your last post. I was still thinking about the earlier one, which was so insightful BTW. You are seem like you have grown heaps since first joining. I am so proud of you!!
My H just pulled out that D card when he wanted to push back on something I did and was saying to get me to back off. It could be more of a power play to let you give in on the dog. Just throwing that out there. Mine was face to face and I could pick up that he was not confident in what he was saying. Email/text is harder for sure. I will let vets chime in on how to respond. I am glad that detaching has lessened the blow, but it still (censored)!
Seeing big hug to you.
Hey PP,
Sending you lots of love PP. You are in my thoughts.
Jellyb XXX
PP, I'm sorry to hear that. I enjoy reading your posts on the forum and I think you have come a long way. Even if your W decides to file, this is by no means over - you get to decide on that...
Take care xx
PP I finally got to catch up today. I'm sorry to hear that about your W. Sending virtual hugs to you. Chin up! It's not over yet.
Thank you for your encouragement everyone. I think Cali or Matt (miss him) said that all that's going to change is how we file our taxes if we do D.
I'm actually ok with this, what is she going to do - move out, live somewhere else and not talk to me any more? I'm already well in the process of recovering from that. Nothing about my day to day is going to change.
Lately I have been able to look at my own situation, my M, my W, and my life all from a very mature perspective and know that everything will be more than well in due time. I couldn't see that a month ago, but can see it now.
I also knew this was coming, and know my W fairly well at this point. She's wanted to be out of our M for a long time and unfortunately Right after our miscarriage she told me that she didn't think I was the man for her nor was this the marriage for her. I gave her plenty of reasons to feel the way that she does. I'm sorry for that, for both of us.
DB has been an amazing learning experience for me and I'm by no means done doing my work here - regardless of her actions.
Tomorrow I celebrate 200 days of sobriety and feel amazing. Even though I wake up every morning without my W, I also wake up every morning with my own self respect. That's a blessing.
PP
I have nothing to add apart from I admire your strength and your progress. The sobriety is something to be proud of. The introspection you display just goes to show that we can all grow from this.
I wish you peace my brother.