Old thread -
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2562476#Post2562476So any help with the suggested email to WW for co parenting counseling? Frankly I don't want to do it as we did it before and it wasn't helpful. I thought we were going for marital counseling and she turned the tables and said it was for co-parenting counseling.
My Doctor said not to respond to her communications but ....
So now this email appears in my box.
As you know - my WAW is engaged in an active affair. I have informed her that unless she is willing to work on the marriage without a third party involved, I will not participate in counseling.
EMAIL from WW
It appears issues that haunted us duringour marriage will probably not be resolved in our future as co-parents unless we take steps to resolve it. I think it would be good for us and for the children if we come to common ground on being able to discuss issues with them and with each other.
Do you have any suggestions? Counseling?
SUGGESTED RESPONSE FROM ME
Things are difernent now between you and I and our family.
I will participate in counseling with you when you end your affair and comit to our marriage and family.
If you are unwilling to end your affair, and commit to our family fully, I will not participate in any counseling.
Thoughts? Any way I can say it better, less formal?
I feel terrible that she started this affair, left me and now blames me for it and now wants co parent counseling. Why does she get to call all the shots? She had the affair and now she decides that we should go to co parenting counseling? Is this just me or is this whacked?
Part of me feels like no response is detaching, the other part of me feels irresponsible for not continuing the drama with her. It feels like a no win situation.
Didn't you already state that you'd wouldn't go to counseling without her ending the affair?
I don't see anything in her email that even touches on issues with coparenting, so... Do you really have to respond to the email? What happens if you sit on it for a while? Or just don't respond?
She says it pretty plainly "could not be resolved in our future as co parents unless we take coparenting counseling"
Heavy,
Although your W is probably not rational, there may be some very small nuggets of useful advice in what she is saying. I agree there does not seem to be a need for MC while your W is in the midst of an A. However, there may be a benefit to counseling for your children or family counseling. I am no expert, and I have not yet reached this point, but a family counselor or child psychologist may have practical advice of how to break the news to the children and how to co-parent. Perhaps this is what your W - in a brief moment of clarity - is trying to articulate.
I think the moratorium on MC while W is in full WAW mode does not necessarily apply to therapies that will help your children in the long run. You could consider calling a child psychologist or family therapist - you don't need your Ws consent or input for this - and ask to meet one-on-one to see what your options are.
Just some thoughts.
RAI
Thanks RIA
We have done that. When this all first happened - September, she turned the tables and said our marital counseling was really co parenting. So I went along and brough our two kids in for a couple of sessions. It was marginally helpful and I think the kids are fine now. They are doing well in school and have a lot of friends each.
The communication between her and I is the problem. She refuses to admit the affair has anything to do with our mariage breakdown. She says it was just a coincidence. Baloney.
She just now called me again, using a different number to register on my phone screen - "Gotcha she said" "Would you like some Dodger tickets for tomorow - our department got some etc... I said "I can't talk to you anymore, this is a legal issue now" and gently hung up.
This whole thing has gutted me but my Doctor and my attorney has told me not to engage with her in ANY conversation. They said anything I say will be used against me. I hate that it has come to this but here we are.
She has called twice, one text and sent 3 emails today. I have not responded to any of them. I feel worthless that I am unable to fix this. But she has left me for the AP and there it is. She chose to leave me and that's it isn't it. She filed for full custody saying she was a better parent, she refuses to stop seeing her AP and I have stopped asking and stopped pursuing.
I am so so sad about all of this.
Wow. So Sorry, man.
I feel worthless that I am unable to fix this.
Do not feel worthless. It is not yours to fix.
I am sure it is very painful. Just know that you will get through this. I was reading about the Stockdale Paradox today. If you have not seen it, Google it. Here, in a nutshell is his philosophy.
“I never lost faith in the end of the story. I never doubted not only that I would get out, but also that I would prevail in the end and turn the experience into the defining event of my life, which, in retrospect, I would not trade.”
We don't know how the story ends. But there will be an end to the story. The end will depend largely on how you respond to your sitch. Be strong. We are all with you.
RAI
Heavy,
I wanted to comment on a post in your previous thread.
I was calm and said "I am sorry you feel that way, it must be frustrating to hear that." She yells "Stop it with all of that counseling mumbo jumbo".
This triggered a long-buried memory in me. Yeah, I said almost the exact same thing to Ms. Wonka while in the midst of my MLC and had one of my mini-spews. Ms. Wonka said the same exact words you did and that just made me madder!
Ha...the pleasures and perils of MLC.
She just now called me again, using a different number to register on my phone screen - "Gotcha she said" "Would you like some Dodger tickets for tomorow - our department got some etc... I said "I can't talk to you anymore, this is a legal issue now" and gently hung up.
Eh, your response wasn't idea. I think you could have handled it better. There's a polite way of turning down invitations like that. I think your frustrations are causing you to hide the smokescreen of "this is a legal issue...can't talk to you." Where's the opportunity to show the new HeavyD??! No wonder your W is frustrated with you...do you now see how your response was very lukewarm.
Now let's turn our attention to W's email:
The EmailIt appears issues that haunted us duringour marriage will probably not be resolved in our future as co-parents unless we take steps to resolve it. I think it would be good for us and for the children if we come to common ground on being able to discuss issues with them and with each other.
Do you have any suggestions? Counseling? My AnalysisDoes this really require a response? To me, not really as I feel she's venting frustrations with how you communicate. Yeah, I know...I know. She spews and all that jazz. My point here is that YOU are responsible for YOUR side of the communication coin.
Lately, I have noticed that your responses have been tepid. Do you see why it's any wonder that W is frustrated?
Get back to the basics:
Polite, cordial, concise
It isn't that hard at all, Heavy. How do you communicate with your neighbors, colleagues, and fellow parents??!
Exactly.
Heavy,
Wonka is giving you some excellent advice.
Take a deep breath...okay, now another and then re-read Wonka's post. The really on-target point is that there is a politer way to turn down an invitation. I know she caught you off-guard with the different phone number. We all make mistakes and you'll bounce back. (I hope you don't mind the constructive criticism.)
You're frustrated. Believe me, I understand. But I have faith in you. You can do this.
Take care,
Bob
Soooooooo hard.
I will try again and again and again
So I just spent about an hour talking on the phone - some good some just ok. We ironed a few things out. I was very very cordial and emailed her some info she wanted for the kids yearbooks.
D is still full speed ahead on her side anyway. She really was upset that I hired a l and said that move "put us back to square 1". She actually said "I didn't get a choice in the process". The irony was lost on her but sadly not to me.
She still thinks she can steamroller me into getting what she wants. She is again playing the you won't get the kids card. Sigh.
I am unsure if she thinks I am stupid or gullible.
So even after a good long talk and a bunch of friendly email exchanges, I still feel manipulated. She had the A, wants the D, doesn't want me to have my own L, is upset that I have my own L and is again threatning me with losing my kids (which is not possible in CA). I just let her talk and again validated. I did not argue at all. I did do a lot of mimicking just to ensure I heard correctly.
I am giving her what she wants - the D, I have set her free, dropped the rope all of that. I am very sad about it yet, she dos not acknowledge the hurt in any of us, the devastation that she has reaped on our family. She just does not get it.
Maybe she never will and I will just have to accept that. Maybe that's the key, just accept her for what she is and not for who I thought she was (Wife and Mother). Maybe that's not who she wants to be.
She acts like all of this pain just fell from the sky and landed on our heads and she had NOTHING to do with it. She just does not see it from my view point and I don't see it from hers.
Cest la vie.
She is mad that I won't let her come into the family home - she moved out in October and told me how much she hated me, never loved me, the house was a prison, etc... Now she wants to come in and vist when she feels like it. I am just not there yet. I did go in her apt once and it was a DIASTER. She did come in the house once and it was another DIASTER. She rummaged through the kitchen and bathroom like she still lived here. It ticked me off although I did not say anything. I just don't think we are ready for that yet.
Here is her text response to our talk and email exchanges:
ME
Thanks for the good convo - I hope you agree that it was helpful and cordial. Can we have any future discussions like this?
WW
I'd like that. It's what I have wanted for a very long time.
ME
Then let's try to keep it up - both of us. I will try to do my part
WW
I will too
So are you guys happy now? She is still in A, has blown our family and finances up and wants to take the kids from me, has thrown me under the bus, Agghhhhhhhh!!!! What else do I have to do for this person?
P.S. She is very angry that this process is "taking so long". "We could have been over by now if you hadn't hired your L". I said yes, the legal system is slow and I don't have any control over it. She wants me to fire my lawyer and go back to mediation.
Aint gonna happen sports fans.
So even after a good long talk and a bunch of friendly email exchanges, I still feel manipulated. She had the A, wants the D, doesn't want me to have my own L, is upset that I have my own L and is again threatning me with losing my kids (which is not possible in CA). I just let her talk and again validated. I did not argue at all. I did do a lot of mimicking just to ensure I heard correctly.
I am giving her what she wants - the D, I have set her free, dropped the rope all of that. I am very sad about it yet, she dos not acknowledge the hurt in any of us, the devastation that she has reaped on our family. She just does not get it.
Maybe she never will and I will just have to accept that. Maybe that's the key, just accept her for what she is and not for who I thought she was (Wife and Mother). Maybe that's not who she wants to be.
She acts like all of this pain just fell from the sky and landed on our heads and she had NOTHING to do with it. She just does not see it from my view point and I don't see it from hers.
Cest la vie.
She is mad that I won't let her come into the family home - she moved out in October and told me how much she hated me, never loved me, the house was a prison, etc... Now she wants to come in and vist when she feels like it. I am just not there yet. I did go in her apt once and it was a DIASTER. She did come in the house once and it was another DIASTER. She rummaged through the kitchen and bathroom like she still lived here. It ticked me off although I did not say anything. I just don't think we are ready for that yet.
I read this - then thought you should re-read YOUR title.
Follow that advice.
Also what you wrote above is good
Maybe she never will and I will just have to accept that. Maybe that's the key, just accept her for what she is and not for who I thought she was (Wife and Mother). Maybe that's not who she wants to be.
Overall not too bad, IMHO.
Again overall, continue to follow your title's advice
Another day friends
Another round with lawyer to play this game I don't want to play.
I didn't sleep well , anxiety mounting over WW comments about me dropping my lawyer and how we could have been divorced already if I didn't hire him.
So much anger, so much manipulation, so many lies, so so much of everything that has to be her way. She wants me to "own this" and I don't know what that means. I think it means she wants me to own hiring a lawyer for me and putting us in this mess. She is still pushing for what she wants which is everything.
Anytjme the convo drifted to our marriage she was very very negative about it and how awful and dyafunctional it was. She keeps saying that I poisoning the kids against her. At this point I don't even argue with her just sigh.
It is strange to talk to her over kid issues but not about legal issues (for the most part). Talk about elephant in the room.
Once again, in her mind her affair Is not the reason for the split - just a coincidence. That is hard to listen to as well.
I can talk to her about anything regarding the kids but anything legal is a no unless I want to go back to mediation.
Stay tuned and prayers are accepted
Disengage her for a bit. Make it a goal. How about for the rest of the week and weekend?
You have very little precious energy in your tank right now and you are using it on communication with her instead of using it on yourself.
Detaching is not going dark. Detaching is not giving up.
I've read all of your posts now and I feel like encouraging you to just stop for a second, breathe, and take a time out. Not for her my friend....for you.
Heavy,
I sense that you are feeling mighty frustrated and sad at the turn of events with the latest convos with W. Don't blame ya at all.
So are you guys happy now? She is still in A, has blown our family and finances up and wants to take the kids from me, has thrown me under the bus, Agghhhhhhhh!!!! What else do I have to do for this person?
It is not a matter of US being happy here...it was FOR you. Nothing needs to be done for W. She is on her own path. All you can do is continue drinking the STFU Smoothie (to borrow from Cali) and conduct yourself with honor, dignity and integrity. Walking on the high road alone is lonely at times. I get that.
So much anger, so much manipulation, so many lies, so so much of everything that has to be her way. She wants me to "own this" and I don't know what that means. I think it means she wants me to own hiring a lawyer for me and putting us in this mess. She is still pushing for what she wants which is everything.
She's blaming YOU for this mess that SHE created. Ohhh...the sheer irony. Don't take it personally. It is her MLC-OW addled mind speaking here.
Yeah, I get the sense that she wants you to roll over and give away the Kent Farm to her. Sheeeesh! Stick to your guns about the L. She needs to "own" this too....blew up the M and the family unilaterally. It's on her.
Anytjme the convo drifted to our marriage she was very very negative about it and how awful and dyafunctional it was.
Have you thought about applying emotional aikido to W here? A bit of emotional jujstu. Agree with W that your M was crappy and all that jazz. Then sit back and watch. Your W will be flummoxed and will start to defend the good parts of the M. Genius, eh?
Hahaha
Emotional jujstu - I can't wait to try that one out.
I am disengaging today - much work at the office. Tomorrow I get the kiddo's - yay! I have cubscouts on Friday, a baseball game lined up for Sunday and Saturday is a sleep over for D6. This will be a first for her - if she is scared, it's just tight down the road and I can pick her up.
Saturday night is neighbor night - we will catch up and enjoy each others company.
Thank you to all DB'ers
What on earth would I do without you???
Hahaha
Emotional jujstu - I can't wait to try that one out.
I am disengaging today - much work at the office. Tomorrow I get the kiddo's - yay! I have cubscouts on Friday, a baseball game lined up for Sunday and Saturday is a sleep over for D6. This will be a first for her - if she is scared, it's just tight down the road and I can pick her up.
Saturday night is neighbor night - we will catch up and enjoy each others company.
Thank you to all DB'ers
What on earth would I do without you???
Heavy,
We feel the same way about you. my friend Wonka had some great observations and advice. How ironic that she is blaming you for all this -- just like my W.
A bit of emotional jujstu might help at this time. If she has nothing to argue about .... see where Wonka was going eith this?
BTW, thank you for much for your post in my thread earlier today. So many people replied, and I really needed the positive thoughts!
I think I responded to all of you in one posting a few hours ago. In case you missed it, here's what I wrote to you:
Heavy, I noticed that I had several new posts, I had a feeling you were one of the people who posted on my thread. Thank you for your time and encouragement.Hang tough - you can do this and you will.
Bob
Have you thought about applying emotional aikido to W here? A bit of emotional jujstu. Agree with W that your M was crappy and all that jazz. Then sit back and watch. Your W will be flummoxed and will start to defend the good parts of the M. Genius, eh?
Wonka, as fun as this sounds, have you ever seen where this worked? I am not being snarky. It is a question because to me, if this actually did work, I would have thought it would be part of the DB process.
Heavy, if it were me (and keep in mind I am definitely a passive aggressive person) I would validate her when she tells you that you hiring a L prolongs the process. And suggest that if time was of the essence for her, that perhaps you both could use YOUR lawyer. Let her argue her way out of that one.
Again, I am PA
Hahaha
It's a no win with her right now. No matter which way I turn, it's wrong, not high enough, not low enough, just wrong. So since I know that already, I just make validating statements.
She is a force to be reckoned with!! (she thinks). My L said she is a typical blow hard and to ignore her.
Yeah, that was one of the main reasons I dropped out of the mediation process. We reached an impasse and the mediators suggested we talk to their one lawyer to see if that helped. Both of us talking to the same person.... errrr...no.
So, she said she "did what she was supposed to" and talked to the lawyer and was told that she had already conceded too much and she will start from scratch - including the 50-50 custody issue. I just smiled.
So, yes, she told me to drop my lawyer, continue with the mediation (where we couldn't agree), so we can get this over with.
It's like I have fallen down the rabit hole.
My therapist said she has many many clients like her. She said she is so angry now because she has realized that she can't control me any more and that now she is starting to see the consequences of her actions and what she will lose.
Fairy dust and unicorns are starting to fade away in her fantasy land.
Anytime she demands something, just come on over to the forum, ask your question and we'll help you through it.
When she DEMANDS an answer. Just repeat back what she wants, and say you will get back to her and stop talking.
I'll give you an example.
HeavyD, I want you to bend over backwards and punish yourself right now.
"So, let me see if I heard you right, you want me to bend over backwards and punish myself? Okay, I'll get back to you by tomorrow on that".
That one actually made me laugh out loud.
Can't wait to try that one out. I am sure I will have ample opportunity.
Hahaha
Thank you Bob.
You are indeed a sweetie pie.
I love your positivity, I really do.
Keep it up.
HeavyD
My therapist said she has many many clients like her. She said she is so angry now because she has realized that she can't control me any more and that now she is starting to see the consequences of her actions and what she will lose.
Fairy dust and unicorns are starting to fade away in her fantasy land.
PING....PING!! That's on spot right there. BOOM, Heavy has grown a pair of titanium melons.
Pilot,
Have you thought about applying emotional aikido to W here? A bit of emotional jujstu. Agree with W that your M was crappy and all that jazz. Then sit back and watch. Your W will be flummoxed and will start to defend the good parts of the M. Genius, eh?
Wonka, as fun as this sounds, have you ever seen where this worked? I am not being snarky. It is a question because to me, if this actually did work, I would have thought it would be part of the DB process.
You ask a good and valid question here.
If you would read all of Heavy's threads, her W has this very negative view of her and the M which she constantly brings it up on every convo. Why not switch it up for once and see W's priceless reaction? Mix it up a bit here.
You'd be surprised at how this emotional jujutsu works! I've used it maybe once or two IRL. It DOES work.
Pilot,
Have you thought about applying emotional aikido to W here? A bit of emotional jujstu. Agree with W that your M was crappy and all that jazz. Then sit back and watch. Your W will be flummoxed and will start to defend the good parts of the M. Genius, eh?
Wonka, as fun as this sounds, have you ever seen where this worked? I am not being snarky. It is a question because to me, if this actually did work,
I would have thought it would be part of the DB process. You ask a good and valid question here.
If you would read all of Heavy's threads, her W has this very negative view of her and the M which she constantly brings it up on every convo. Why not switch it up for once and see W's priceless reaction? Mix it up a bit here.
You'd be surprised at how this emotional jujutsu works! I've used it maybe once or two IRL. It DOES work.
I think it is part of the DB process.
Its called a 180 and "Do what Works"
I agree that it does work. My W started the DB discussion by listing a lot of the things I had criticized her for in our M. She said I was right on all of this after all. She was a bad person in this M hence she needed to leave me and find her true self. I was definitely taken by surprise, not only by the desire to leave, but by the complete change in the structure of our arguments.
WW had an OM (EA) waiting in the wings, so I can't quite say whether she was honest about her self-assessment, but I simply point out that the way she approached it was unsettling. I remember thinking of it a "emotional jujitsu" too.
I also think it's part of DB and it's called validation.
OK - I will try it when I get the chance.
Thank you everyone for commenting. Mozza, nice to see you again.
Monday she will get a letter from my L that she will not be happy at all about. She will be royally pissed. She already doesn't like me having my own L and said I was "showing my true colors" and was being "vindictive". She wants me to drop my lawyer and lets settle this amongst ourselves. I am not going to do that because it's not in my best interest. I know that.
Question - she is so impatient about this D and every time it comes up so says "the clock is ticking J" What does that even mean? She has said this phrase at least 3 times.
We did have a covo months ago about her not having the circus freak OW around the kids for a year which she agreed to - that was in September. Is that what she is referring to? Or is she just doing it to push my buttons and telling me to just hurry the F*ck up. Either way, I don't like it - I believe the last time she said it I said "I don't have any control over the legal system" and let that sit with her.
Who knows for sure, guess it is not worth thinking about but its weird. "The clock is ticking J" - that sounds ominous doesn't it? Am I reading more into it that what it is worth?
The more time I spend apart from her the more I can see how really mean she was/is to me and how much she wants things her way AND how much I did to make it happen to keep her happy. I just don't see any good outcome in this except to for me to "see" her and the "marriage" for what it was.
It was my dream, not hers. She resented having our second child (she told me), she felt trapped, she hated the mini van and everything it represented, She hated our marriage and me and what a prison it was. She was afraid of my reactions, she was mad at my non reactions.
In hindsight, I see she used me, she used me as a meal ticket, a way out, the opportunity to get out of her last relationship (GF not wife).
Did I ever love "her" or did I love what I thought she was? This level of viciousness that she has unleashed is unprecedented and hurts and scares me.
You are right Wonka, I have grown some Melons and we will see what happens.
Your WW is trying to control you. She wants to have her way. But she can't control you, only you can, so all she can do is use words. If you don't react, you remain in control. Sentences like "the clock is ticking" are meant to worry you, to push you to action. If you don't react, if you don't change your course, they die out.
Notice a pattern: she'll present things as if she cares about your interests. She tells you to go her way so as to avoid appearing mean or vindictive or what not, to gain more from the settlement, to avoid some mysterious consequence in the near future... Why does she pretend to care so much about you? In my opinion, if she could gain more by being silent, she would do it.So when she talks, it's not really out of helping you out as she presents it.
Monday she will get a letter from my L that she will not be happy at all about. She will be royally pissed. She already doesn't like me having my own L and said I was "showing my true colors" and was being "vindictive". She wants me to drop my lawyer and lets settle this amongst ourselves. I am not going to do that because it's not in my best interest. I know that.
It seems very typical when the WAS does not get 'their' way they throw a fit. I know when D was on the table for me my wife constantly would tell me she wanted to D amicably, and I would smile telling her "Yeah provided amicable is now defined as you getting it your way right?" They do have things all laid out in their head and once we LBS start standing up for ourselves it throws them off, confuses them and starts to erode that fantasy of what they dreamed the D would be like
Question - she is so impatient about this D and every time it comes up so says "the clock is ticking J" What does that even mean? She has said this phrase at least 3 times.
Again ... things are not going according to her plan or her schedule, so she is pouting and acting out about it, stay the course.
We did have a covo months ago about her not having the circus freak OW around the kids for a year which she agreed to - that was in September. Is that what she is referring to? Or is she just doing it to push my buttons and telling me to just hurry the F*ck up. Either way, I don't like it - I believe the last time she said it I said "I don't have any control over the legal system" and let that sit with her.
Thats the best way to handle it, because its true, you have no control over that nor her.
Who knows for sure, guess it is not worth thinking about but its weird. "The clock is ticking J" - that sounds ominous doesn't it? Am I reading more into it that what it is worth?
The more time I spend apart from her the more I can see how really mean she was/is to me and how much she wants things her way AND how much I did to make it happen to keep her happy. I just don't see any good outcome in this except to for me to "see" her and the "marriage" for what it was.
It was my dream, not hers. She resented having our second child (she told me), she felt trapped, she hated the mini van and everything it represented, She hated our marriage and me and what a prison it was. She was afraid of my reactions, she was mad at my non reactions.
In hindsight, I see she used me, she used me as a meal ticket, a way out, the opportunity to get out of her last relationship (GF not wife).
Did I ever love "her" or did I love what I thought she was? This level of viciousness that she has unleashed is unprecedented and hurts and scares me.
You are right Wonka, I have grown some Melons and we will see what happens.
Yes, she sent an email to my L the other day -
"stating that every time she has to contact my L it costs me, so it's in my best intersts to communicate with her directly"
AND
"I am required by law to communicate with her when the interests and welfare of our kids are concerned. Any non communication from me is in violation of the law. As my l - he needs to inform me of this fact....."
If it were a real issue about the welfare of the kids - I respond IMMEDIATELY - here is what the issues of the day she was pissed at that I did not respond to immediately were:
Yearbook photos
Tickets to a baseball game
I am turning the kids against her
My IC said that her actions do not indicate someone who wants to separate. She said people who want to D don't keep contacting and/or comunicating with soon to be x. She said her actions do not match her words.
I am doing my best to not contact her, no pursuit, being cordial if we do talk, I don't reply to her immediately unless it's a bonafide emergency (kids sick, school problem, etc..) Most of the time, I don't reply to her at all.
She threatens me to communicate with her, "you must talk to me" yet is pushing hard and fast for D.
Just wow
Notice a pattern: she'll present things as if she cares about your interests. She tells you to go her way so as to avoid appearing mean or vindictive or what not, to gain more from the settlement, to avoid some mysterious consequence in the near future... Why does she pretend to care so much about you? In my opinion, if she could gain more by being silent, she would do it.So when she talks, it's not really out of helping you out as she presents it.
Right - it's all about control and manipulation of me. That really hurts to realize it. But that's exactly what it is and what everyone has been telling me. I have been "no no no" You don't know her like I do, she would never do that. But the facts tell another story.
You know she was not always this person. I don't know who this person is.
My old person and I taught Sunday school. Really. She was kind loving never lied and was my everything.
So either I was being deceived for 20 years or MLC . Guess it does not matter in final analysis- old girl is gone never to be seen again. It is like she actually died and this is a cheap relica made outside the USA.
The outside is the same but the inside is broken and put together all wrong.
Goodbye old - hello new - sounds like a song - played on a broken record player
My d6 told me all about the OW this morning and how much my WW is in love with her.
She told that me my WW is staying in this city and the OW will stay in her city and that will be that. She told my D6 that she can go visit the OW and her daughters anytime she wants. My D6 said she doesn't want to visit her. The OW has two boys too not two daughters.
So.... seems like my WW is still in her fantasy or maybe reality at this point. I am telling my kids how much I love them and how happy I am for WW. I am broken inside but I guess that is the right thing to do. I don't want me kids to be worried or scared about anything.
My D6 also told me that she was "Student of the Month" and how she got her photo taken and got the certificte, etc... and guess what - she was not the student of the month. So go figure.
My question is - do I talk about this situation to my S9? I am guessing I should reassure him that everything is going to be OK without being pressing about details. That would probably make him feel uncomfortable. Maybe I should just let him tell me about it if he has questions.
Last night we had cub scouts. My WW called 6 times. I was very busy with the scouts and did not see the calls. I texted when we got home - all good. But 6 calls? Come on!
I will let all calls from her go to VM. If it's an emergency she texts.
What do you think DBer's - should I do anything differently? I am cordial but distant, trying to keep my life packed full of GAL but PMA is hard to do at this point. I am smiling and shaking hands and saying hello to everyone I meet which is a big 180 for me.
Another thing to ponder-
My WW keeps telling me that if I were "nicer" to her that there might be a chance of reconcilliation. She has said this a couple of different ways over the past few months. She keeps saying if we could only be friends again, then who knows what could happen.
Friends of course while she continues her OW thing, and while she has stuck me with the mortgage and all of the bills as she moved out. Friends as she lies to all of our friends about the OW and why we split. So.... the whole "be nicer to me" feels and smells like more like manipulation.
I have followed the advice of the wide DB community here and have improved my cordial skills. I try to view her as a neighbor with whom I a have a friendly relationship with, nothng else.
I am still very wary of her and don't trust her. She makes me very sad that she has hurt me and scared me and just left me out to dry since the whole thing started.
So while I don't avoid her, I will nod a hello if I pass her in the halls at work, that's about it. When we do talk, all I do is validate and mimic back what I hear. I dont share anything about what Ido, am dim and just try to get back on track.
I am trying to detach and am trying desperately to get a life and just get over her and her hurtful behaviors. Some days are better than others I must admit. I have learned a lot about MLC'ers and 100% belive she is in one.
Fun times right?!
Today marks 8 LONG months of hard times for me, therapy, medication, weight loss, hair falling out, support groups, exrecise, and increased kid activities.
Vent Party is Over
Its possible shes just saying those things to avoid her own guilt, or so she doesn't have to accept her role in it. It would be easier to just say "if you would only.....we could maybe....." which then places the blame on you for whatever happens or doesn't happen.
The fact is shes still with OW and she left, its not your place to do something to make her come back. If she really wants to have a relationship with you she would make a real effort, not shitty excuses that blame you. Keep being cordial and work on yourself, your doing great.
Fogg
Thanks for commenting.
Her biggest idea is that ' I (ww) didn't want to move - you told me too." Therefore I am not responsible for any of the bills or responsibilities. Wha??? We did argue at first who was going to move out and she decided to bolt which she did.
So I am stuck struggling to pay the bills etc... And I get the blame for her affair .
I am just leaving her alone and working on me.
I really appreciate the feedback. There are days where I really question. My sanity.
Well Heavy,
When those days arrive, come on down to the forum and we'll help you through it.
Poll
How many times a day should the non custodial parent call? My stbx calls about 6 times per day. I have suggested setting a time once per day say 6pm - she ignores it and calls whenever.
How much is too much?
I think that would be up to your kids. How much they like having her call.
Otherwise, call display and having the kids pick up.
Kids never pick up the phone - ever! It doesn't even register on their minds. Really
If they don't pick up and they know who it is. Let the phone ring.
When the inevitable phone conversation takes place, of course it is in the car on Bluetooth. So I turn it of and give it to me S9 to talk one on one.
I could still hear the convo and I whistled, hummed, did everything I could think of to not hear it.
She was bright and happy and laughed often. She talked abot things that we used to talk about like pugs, fench bulldogs, and our favorite restaurants and how much she loves him and misses him.
In short, it was painful to listen to. I know my S9 loves his Mom and they need to talk, but God Almighty, it's hard when I have to overhear. What was I supposed to do, stop the car and get out in order not to hear? I am glad to know she has moved on so easily and effortlessly.
Last night the s9 and I went to a movie just the two of us. It was fun. I realized driving to the theater how much life there is about me, in the movies, how many people there were and that everywhere life had moved on. It hit me that it moves on and does not stop regardless of my (or anyone's pain) or problems. We can stay in bed and cry or we can get on with it and live in spite of dissapointments.
The world keeps turning and we either choose to live or die. I choose to live, in spite of the pain. I am not the first nor will I be the last to be betrayed by a loved one.
Heavy - sometimes I feel the same way watching my W interact with my daughters. For months, she has been pretty distant and only a little affectionate with them. Since BD, I've noticed that she's always asking them for hugs and kisses and such right in front of me; I know it's not about me, but it just makes me sad that she can't feel the same towards me.
Matt
Yes, there is a sadness to it.
While I am happy that my kids love her, it's pitiful.
Hey Heavy,
My W has lately turned herself into super-mom (with cell phone in hand), trying to get every ounce of attention from our kids. She does not acknowledge the time she was MIA - like it never happened.
I am not sure why it is painful to see and hear her interaction with the kids - I should be happy about it. It just seems so fake to me and another dagger in me.
I do think that at times she is just trying to out-parent me. I am still the guy who gets things done and she is the one with pet names, acting like a 20 year old, and buying them off.
It is painful
U-Turn
That hits the nail in the head - it just seems so fake. If my kids only knew what a liar she was and how much devestation her behaviors have caused all of us.
Of course I can never say why (until later) but it's just such a sad joke. My S9 has said how she can't buy him another Ipad becuaes it's too expensive, yet she charges $500 a night hotel rooms with OW. It's just too much - barf.
That may be one of my biggest triggers lately. I have to remove myself from the area when this starts. I know it is not fair of me to feel this way - the kids deserve love from both of us, I just have a really hard time these days showing it at the same time she is. (she dislikes this about me at the moment).
I really do not believe that W thinks that the lies she told me were also lies to the kids. I also think that she feels the kids have not been impacted by this and only are going to be impacted by MY decision to end the marriage.
Too much is right!
Agree 100%
The lies and deceptions "don't affect the kids" and we will all just get along just fine after the D.
Wow - just wow
The level of this selfishness of this astounds me.
I am doing my best to the best the lighthouse and be the voice of reason for my kids. WW truly feels her unilateral decisions were in the "best intrests" of everyone.
I am doing my best to the best the lighthouse and be the voice of reason for my kids. WW truly feels her unilateral decisions were in the "best intrests" of everyone.
Hi HeavyD,
You are such a good person. Without having ever met you, there's no doubt in my mind that you are giving it your all to the best lighthouse and be the voice of reason for your children.
Keep a stiff upper lip and live one day at a time because that's all any of us gets. I wish you all the best!
Bob
You should never deprive your kids of the other parent. That being said setting boundaries is also acceptable. In other words, yea limit it to calling at night before bed, and maybe on the way to school. She may want to call 24/7 to talk to the kids, but unfortunately, her choices mean she does not have 24/7 access. Her constant calling, if it is interfering with your time with them, needs to be controlled.
For example, on school days my W calls the kids on the way to school (we have an hour drive) and she calls them before bed. I usually talk to them twice a day at set times when she has them. Now if something unusual is going on that one of us wants to share with the kids, no big deal. But if my W was calling 6 times a day I just wouldnt answer 4 or 5 of them. Normally we both send a text asking if the kids can talk. If the parent with the kids is busy or the kids are busy doing something, we will just say "in X minutes".
Again, there is a difference between setting boundaries and purposefully limiting the other parent access out of spite. Find your happy place
My ww brought up counseling for the boys tonite also. I've already had the no open marriage talk. However, imo when it comes to co parenting and communicating, that's different. I would go to conseling.
As a wife and a friend she has disrespected you and is failing. As a mom, she may be doing ok. It's tough for me too, but I have to see it in different ways. Would I not go to a parent/teacher meeting just because she was there? Would I not see my sons sports game because of her? Not a chance, I'd be there. So, why wouldn't I go to counseling for them and not worry about her.
I do agree that family fun things like trips or movies, etc should be put on hold, but necessary things like this for their betterment, I view differently.
Happy Middle Ground is what I can do.
Thank you Bob for ALWAYS being so positive and uplifting during this awful time.
I will put on a brave face for the week and carry on and be the best Mom, employee, person I can be. I pray daily for strength and courgage to accept what His will is.
I keep re reading sandi's posts and while they are indeed "gold" and I don't think they really apply after the spouse leaves and chooses the AP. Is that a correct assumption?
My situation gave me no warning and no choice. It was accept this "open marriage" but then changed to "I should have left you years ago" and than again "this affair has nothing to do with my leaving" or I'm outta here. So here I am.
S9 is sick today - so I brought to office to chill out and the other kid D6 thought it was incredibly unfair that she had to go to scool and I had a hard time getting D6 into the class. I told the teacher what the problem was and hopefully all will be well.
Tough way to start the week.
Happy Monday indeed DB'ers
" I don't think they really apply after the spouse leaves and chooses the AP. Is that a correct assumption?"
No. They do.
Heavy ... finally caught up on your sitch .. I usually am not around much during the wekeend, I might read but seldom post.
So a few things that caught me.
That whole bit about it hurting when she talks to your S, about old things .. dogs and what not. Yeah, my W early on in her crisis did that too, was like she was selling S something she felt he wanted, she would constantly try to buy or talk her way out of the guilt. Take that for what it is, she has some serious guilt she is dealing with .... hence with that remark about you being nicer to her, becoming friends ... its a temp check .. common with MLC ... and yeah .. the more I read your story ... the more MLC parallels I see.
Some things to keep in mind if this is MLC, she will want to cake eat, she expects you to be just where she left you, that whole comment about reconciliation ... yeah they do that. Her checking in constantly ... she is off doing her own thing and the guilt adds up, she wants to believe her family is staying put and not moving on without her, all while she is trying to find happiness wherever it is .. it does not matter at this time how shallow.
So .. the trick for you. Focus on your kids, yourself, GAL and PMA. Set boundaries ... be neighborly and kind but do not allow her to mess with your head. She needs to start feeling that you will be fine and move on regardless of her actions ... be prepared for testing and temp checking along the way. Its a very LONG process.
Hi Heavy!
Been a bit.
again "this affair has nothing to do with my leaving" or I'm outta here. So here I am.
This sounds very familiar.
I feel your pain with the kids. Being forced into being a part-time dad is a horrible experience.
So, I can certainly sympathize with your situation. The selfishness is astonishing, although I had glimpses of it in my situation, I didn't realize how deep it went. I keep telling myself that the lies and deceit will eventually catch up. But waiting for it is hard.
You're in my thoughts.
Thanks Sherman
I am sorry you are experiencing something like this too. I too had glimpses but never something like this nightmare.
I am trying so hard to not think of her BS and to focus on my side of the street. It's harded when there are little kids involved because you are forced to deal with the ex on a regular basis and that blows.
I will keep you too in my thoughts and prayers. I takes a special person to foster kids. God Bless You!
Hi CaliGuy
Thanks for posting, I appreciate it.
No, I don't think she wants to reconcile and don't want to even pretend that she does or that she wants to end her A. She does "not regret a thing" and "would do it over again" if given the chance. Ouch. She just wants me to play along, roll over and not make a stink. She seems to get off on being mean but I can handle it a lot better now. I just let it roll off my back.
Why is it called cake eating if they have already left? Cake eating is for when they are still in the Marriage isn't it?
I do think the more I respond to her, the madder it makes her. That is not my goal of course, but it protects me so that is a good thing. She keeps cyclinbg back to either kick me or punch me "metaphorically" speaking and to see what response it gets.
The response she gets now is nothing. I tell her nothing, ask her nothing and respond with nothing. Except where kids are involved, and then it's very short, cordial and then goodbye.
In my heart, I feel she has made her decision, which fuels my decisions which is a vicious cycle.
I am letting my L deal with it now.
Poll
How many times a day should the non custodial parent call? My stbx calls about 6 times per day. I have suggested setting a time once per day say 6pm - she ignores it and calls whenever.
How much is too much?
Ok, I'm late on this, but I personally think 6 times per day is too much. I think it is a passive aggressive control move on her part, and think you should limit it unless a bonafide emergency.
Heavy, I think the cake eating can apply in your situation as she still wants you to be there to yell or vent at and to take her calls for your kids, while having her separate life. It might not be as cut and dry as other situations, but I do think in applies.
She is calling waaaay too much for the kids and I agree with Kramer that it is a control thing. Maybe talk to your lawyer about it?
I'm so sorry that you are having to deal with this as you don't deserve it. Keep powering through and remind yourself frequently that you are awesome and nothing she does can touch you.
{{{{{Heavy}}}}}
Hi Kramer
How is it going in your sitch? Did you WW get over her illness? Did you intervene? Did the AP take care of her?
Curious to know how it played out.
I've been working so hard at this whole DB plan. And doing it for me, I know that. A few folks have commented that I look great due to my weight loss but that's about it. One person said I looked ten years younger. That does make me feel better after being dumped and discarded.
As far as detachment goes, I think I am getting better at it, but that too worries me, of course. I have detached to the point of no communication at all. My s9 was sick today so I let him hang out in my office. He's a great s9 and we actually had a fun day together. My D6 thought it was incredibly unfair and refused to get out of the car. I did manage to get her into school. All of this previously would have previously left me unhinged, not any more, I just get on with it. I don't freak about the small stuff anymore either. I can handle it solo. I wish I didn't have to but it is what it is.
I have been thinking a lot about the Stockdale Paradox and yes, the cold brutal truth is evident. I will get through this, not sure when but the real prize is getting over someone who did not love me like I loved them. Why would I want someone who put their needs before the needs of our marriage and family?
I have also been reading a lot about Affair Downs and wow is this ever true in my case. Does that make me feel any better? A little I guess, but it is depressing to throw it all away for an "Affair Down".
An old friend called me today, heard the news and called to check on me. I was incredibly touched that he would take time out of his day to call. He shared he had been in my situation before and he "gets it". I was grateful for his gesture.
I am working on updating my kids school year books. I designed the book covers and am working at preserving the "best" of the years work to save. This is all something I never did before.
Strange how the roles have reversed.
Good night friends.
Sounds fantastic Heavy.
Keep us updated !
Heavy d. I don't get your exact situation or what you ww means or meant to you. However, I can sympathize and understand. It's tough to feel like if you kept hanging in there and fighting that maybe she would come around and then you have a chance to be stronger together for it. That you're letting down your family and everyone else because clearly she's not thinking straight, she's a ww and addicted to the affair. So, by letting go you are responsible for killing any chance of repair and any chance of that family.
You are not responsible for that, neither am I. You are right in that you will get through this and the time you feel alone, weak and depressed are better than being married to someone you can't trust, that doesn't respect you nor love you the way you deserve.
These are all things I know you know and things everyone else will tell you too. I also understand the brain and logic come to that conclusion much faster than your heart does.
I wish you the best and appreciate you keeping us posted. We're all rooting for you and know you'll come out of this on top!
Thanks TenBook and Ripken8 for your comments -
You are right Ripken, I feel guilty for letting her go, because I think I will kill ANY chance for reconcilliation and our family to be entact.
We haven't spoken in weeks and any communication at this point is very brief but cordial emails or texts. When she texts or calls for the kids, I tell them, Mom called, call her back. They either do or don't depending on what they are doing. I think that is a good strategy to get out of the middle of the phone call issue.
Kind of getting used to the feeling of being the Captain of my own ship. I like not being criticized or yelled at all of the time, I like not having to cowtow to her punishing schedule - it's nice just to do nothing on the weekends but relax. Even the kids tells me how much they like to just go home and relax. We watch movies, eat fun lunches, jump on the trampoline, ride bikes, have friends come over, have sleep overs, read, just relaxig things that help me recharge for another week.
I don't feel as though whatever I do is not good enough. I would get criticized for not interacting more with people, for not holding doors open for people all the time, being ordered around, and just basically feeling lke an employee instead of a partner.
I feel like I can breathe deeply again. So maybe that is what everyone talks about when they are "detaching". If so, I will continue to do it.
The kids tell me that there are no other kids at the WW apartment and they have not had 1 play date there. There is a guy downstairs that does not like noise and makes a stink if they make noise (they are kids and of course they make noise). That makes me feel sad for them, that they can't just be kids to run and play, but there is nothing I can do about that.
Stay tuned -
A question
What does it mean when I would ask my spouse for specific examples of what she was talking about and she would always say "You should know" what I want. She would say "This (our relationship) is broken and I would say OK, can you give me an example of what is broken? "You should know if you really loved me" was the usual answer I got.
I did this so many times, and she would either refuse to tell me or say "I should not have to tell you".
This always left me confused and searching my brain for the answers to her mystery statements. Clearly she was trying to communicate soething to me, but why woulnd't she just articulte it? Why did she want me to jump through hoops trying to figure out what she wanted or needed from me?
Is this an immature answer or am I missing something?
I honestly don't know.
So we spoke - it was cordial but brief about children and summer plans.
She mentioned that her mediators will get with my lawyer to speed up this process. I am not even sure that is possible but her intent was to confirm to me she is full steam ahead with the D. She apparently like to confirm this with me every time we talk, she wants the D, she wants the D, she wants the D. It's like her mantra.
Mostly I am non reactive, I just say OK, but the ball is in her court. Since she doesn't have a lawyer, I am not sure what she can do.
As most of you know, my plan was to work on me which I have been doing, stall this D out as long as possible, hope her A with the circus freak burns out and maybe we can start with marriage counseling if she is willing.
I don't know - it feels not good at this point but I continue to DB and "act as if."
As most of you know, my plan was to work on me which I have been doing, stall this D out as long as possible, hope her A with the circus freak burns out and maybe we can start with marriage counseling if she is willing.
I don't know - it feels not good at this point but I continue to DB and "act as if."
Hey there Heavy,
I know how hard this is. Stick with your plan for now! Beleive in the process.
Hang tough my friend.
Bob
Same here, Bob and Heavy! While the plan doesn't change "go dark, GAL, 180, positive around her, etc" the focus seems to.
Rather than initially doing it to save your marriage, now it should be about saving yourself. You still have time. Still stick with what's been working for you.
Maybe she comes around and maybe she doesn't. Maybe she comes around and you no longer want that - who knows. Same situation you were in a month ago, right?
You're making great progress on you - keep your chin up!
A question
What does it mean when I would ask my spouse for specific examples of what she was talking about and she would always say "You should know" what I want. She would say "This (our relationship) is broken and I would say OK, can you give me an example of what is broken? "You should know if you really loved me" was the usual answer I got.
I did this so many times, and she would either refuse to tell me or say "I should not have to tell you".
This always left me confused and searching my brain for the answers to her mystery statements. Clearly she was trying to communicate soething to me, but why woulnd't she just articulte it? Why did she want me to jump through hoops trying to figure out what she wanted or needed from me?
This seems to me that she doesn't really know and she's jerking you around. I know my H will stop and say "What do you think?" in just the same way. I finally realized that he didn't want to take responsibility for the problems so would foist them off on me. Maybe that's what she's doing?
"You should know if you really loved me" was the usual answer I got.
I did this so many times, and she would either refuse to tell me or say "I should not have to tell you".
This is a huge sign of emotional immaturity. She's asking you to mind-read. My 1st wife did this A LOT.
Let me know if you figure out how... I might be able to use the skill on the STBXW.
Of course, your WW may not even understand what's in her head too?
Mainly stopping by to say hi and catch up. Hope you're doing well... Just focus on you. It get's better either way.
Hi Kramer
How is it going in your sitch? Did you WW get over her illness? Did you intervene? Did the AP take care of her?
Curious to know how it played out.
Well, she felt well enough to go to work in the ER over the weekend, so must not have been too bad. I worked in urgent care the same time, so I was worried that our paths would cross. They didn't.
I have no idea if OM did anything or intervened. He lives about an hour away and she stayed here. I have no clue what is going on with him or to what extent. I'm assuming they are still together, but don't know details.
She still is sending texts, joking and being funny. I haven't responded. I don't want to be her friend, and I think that is what she is trying to do. She wants to assuage her guilt and hopes that we can all get along and live happily ever after. While I have forgiven her, I have no desire to be her friend at this time. She hurt me to the core and the level of deceit was too high.
A question
What does it mean when I would ask my spouse for specific examples of what she was talking about and she would always say "You should know" what I want. She would say "This (our relationship) is broken and I would say OK, can you give me an example of what is broken? "You should know if you really loved me" was the usual answer I got.
I did this so many times, and she would either refuse to tell me or say "I should not have to tell you".
This always left me confused and searching my brain for the answers to her mystery statements. Clearly she was trying to communicate soething to me, but why woulnd't she just articulte it? Why did she want me to jump through hoops trying to figure out what she wanted or needed from me?
Is this an immature answer or am I missing something?
I honestly don't know.
I suect that this was yet another example of covert control on her part. She had self doubts and insecurity, and played it off that it was your fault. Then you doubled your efforts in an attempt to please her. She is a classic manipulator.
Good Lord.
I said so many times - Just tell me what you want and I'll do it." Looking back at that statement now is embarassing but I see it now for what it was - a desperate atempt to please someone who clearly wasn't in love with me.
It makes me feel very small and pathethic when I realize all of that. No wonder she had no respect for me!
Oh well, working on that now.
Hi CaliGuy
Thanks for posting, I appreciate it.
No, I don't think she wants to reconcile and don't want to even pretend that she does or that she wants to end her A. She does "not regret a thing" and "would do it over again" if given the chance. Ouch. She just wants me to play along, roll over and not make a stink. She seems to get off on being mean but I can handle it a lot better now. I just let it roll off my back.
No... Right now she does not want any of that, what MLCrs tend to want is for you to stay put, excactly where they left you, and if you seem miserable even better. You will notice they will not care for you to be happy without them.
Why is it called cake eating if they have already left? Cake eating is for when they are still in the Marriage isn't it?
I have been separated for almost 2 years and I assure you plenty of cake eating went on, she should look like that big blue girl in Willy Wonka by now, some of this I allowed, some I refused ... as with all things trust your gut and pick your battles.
I do think the more I respond to her, the madder it makes her. That is not my goal of course, but it protects me so that is a good thing. She keeps cyclinbg back to either kick me or punch me "metaphorically" speaking and to see what response it gets.
The response she gets now is nothing. I tell her nothing, ask her nothing and respond with nothing. Except where kids are involved, and then it's very short, cordial and then goodbye.
In my heart, I feel she has made her decision, which fuels my decisions which is a vicious cycle.
I am letting my L deal with it now.
Good Lord.
I said so many times - Just tell me what you want and I'll do it." Looking back at that statement now is embarassing but I see it now for what it was - a desperate atempt to please someone who clearly wasn't in love with me.
It makes me feel very small and pathethic when I realize all of that. No wonder she had no respect for me!
Oh well, working on that now.
I did that too, for a good chunk of my marriage, does it mean the WAS never loved us ... no, just means we sometimes put thier happiness and needs in front of our own, now .. hindsight, we can see just how devastating our unselfish act was... live and learn right?
Today is one of those days I feel like I am back to Square 1
*&^%%%$!!!
So after reading my DB books again and the board posts again, I realize that jeez this still blows. Does it get better or worse the longer you are in. On one hand it's bette becuase the pain of it is lessened over time. On the other hand it's worse because it just prolongs the limbo. I don't believe in dating anyone as long as I am married. That is just my personal line in the sand.
8 months in and WW still in full blown affair, and talks non stop about D. I think she is realizing this is going to be a loooonnggg process. In her mind however, we are divorced, and done. Over and out.
I am still working the plan, keeping cool, trying to follow the great advice I have been given and generally keeping it together.
Sometimes I think I see baby steps and sometimes I feel like I have reversed course.
We did have a phone convo today and the anger seems to be gone from her voice, but she still talked about D and my lawyer this and can't wait to get to the D.
I don't ask any questions about OW, don't question her, just chit chat. We did talk logistics about summer camp options and decisions. It's a lot of planning involved.
I saw on our family spread sheet that she had marked in Trip to XX for a week with her and the kids. We had agreeed and abide by the "if the kids go out of state, the parent must ask and get consent in writing." This is what we agreed upon in writing.
I mentioned this saying "Hey, I saw you were planning a trip to XX"? I was a little surprised to see this as we hadn't talked about it. She got defensive and said well this was just for planning purposes, do you have a problem with it?
Me: No problem, I just thought we we agreed to ask and get consent from one another before we made any plans, I was just surprised that's all.
This is the second time she has done this, put an out of state trip on the calendar before she even asked me. I have always asked her and obtained consent before putting a trip on the calendar. She emailed me later saying that this seemed "odd" and "controlling". We talked again and I said I can see where you think this may be controlling but please be patient, I am working out a lot of schedule, today is crazy at work and I am feeling overwhelmed. Could I give you my answer tomorrow and she said OK.
So, that's the reason for my back to square 1 comment from earlier today.
Heavy d. The controlling aspect seems par for the course. You're doing the right thing. This was an agreed upon boundary and one you should continue to stand up for. They are your kids and you have every right to be involved Ina decision of them leaving the state, ahead of time.
Being able to tell her, I'm sorry you feel this is controlling (don't validate) but this is a boundary we agreed to. Imo why go through the efforts of making plans if you're not sure the other parent would sign off on it first.
This is an area you both need to feel comfortable trusting each other and based on her actions, that makes it tough.
Not controlling, simply sticking up for a clearly defined boundary.
Today is one of those days I feel like I am back to Square 1
*&^%%%$!!!
Hey Heav,
This is good I think. Periodic regression is normal (at least for me). Recognizing it--and being pissed about it--is good. This means that you are beginning to value yourself and realize that you deserve way more than this circular "good-feeling/bad-feeling game. Keep up the GAL. Keep learning about yourself. Keep making yourself into the person only a "fool wouldn't want in their life." I paraphrase someone here on the forum with that tidbit. I'm afraid I don't remember who. So sorry.
The best to you my friend,
Diesel
Thanks friends - Suggested email wording?
What is the best way to tell her "No" I don't agree to the kids going to XX. They have just gotten back from a long trip to XX which was agreed upon.
She wants to take then almost as soon as they get back to XX - 5 hours plane ride for only 4 days and then another 5 hour plane trip back.
I want to say this in an email - can you suggest wording that would be taken in the best way?
Here is my suggestion:
W
As we have already agreed to this boudry of asking each other prior to making any travel arangements, I hope you will understand my logic to not agreeing to your request to take them to XX for a short trip.
As you know, they will have just gotten back from 2 weeks in XX. I feel that this proposed trip to XX is too much flying for them in such a short 1 month time span.
Thanks for your understanding.
W
Me: No problem, I just thought we we agreed to ask and get consent from one another before we made any plans, I was just surprised that's all.
Just curious what your motivation for the email is. You already stated to her you had no problem with the trip, but now are saying its too much flying for the kids.
Just make sure the email is because you're genuinely concerned with the children flying and not because you want to punish W for not clearing it with you first. Be honest with yourself.
I've realized I have a habit of using a boundary to control a situation I don't like. Its very easy to do this and not realize your trying to control W.
She hasn't taken them on a trip yet, so there's still room for discussion and the boundary really hasn't been crossed yet. There's nothing wrong with speaking with her about clearing those things first, if you have an issue with that. You have every right to say you don't want them going on the trip if you feel that way, just be sure that's the real reason.
Fogg
My No problem coment was that she put the trip on the calendar for planning purposes only. I will communicate that I want us both to write on the calendar - Tentative Travel instead of just writing the date and time and location.
So, my no problem was only after he explained it was for planning.
I do have a problem with the kids flying so much in 1 month. I feel that is detrimental to their well being. I will email her this information and try to be as delicate as I can.
That is honestly the real reason I will say no, for their well
being. She also plans to take them to XX for Christmas break which again, I have not been informed of in writing nor have agreed to.
Jeez
I see, I thought the comment was for the travel specifically. Sounds like a plan then, you have every right to not want your kids to fly that much if you don't want them to. If the calendar is having issues that "Tentative Travel" part would work, just need to find the right way to express that to her but I would expect shes not going to take it well.
Heavy
While I understand the concern, I am thinking your W will spew at the email as she will feel controlled. In her mind she may spin it that its ok for the kids to go with you to XX but you are not allowing her time with the kids to go to XY, tit for tat. Honestly, a 5 hour plane ride would not kill your children, if anything .. and this is how my devious mind works ... at worst it will make them cranky, and soley your W's problem, I do feel the more real things get for her, the better chance that she comes to her senses and nothing can get more real than good ole travel stress.
Regardless your W should have her time with the kids, vaca where they wish .. these are things out of your control (for the most part) provided she is not going to move out of state nor put the children in harms way, thankfully my W never seemed to lose it THAT bad.
Wonka....calling Wonka....Wonka....
Please advise on email script
Heavy, I don't have any advice for this situation, and I'm hoping that Wonka shows up soon, but I do want you to know that I feel for your situation and hope you can find a way to achieve your goal in this area.
Heavy
While I understand the concern, I am thinking your W will spew at the email as she will feel controlled. In her mind she may spin it that its ok for the kids to go with you to XX but you are not allowing her time with the kids to go to XY, tit for tat. Honestly, a 5 hour plane ride would not kill your children, if anything .. and this is how my devious mind works ... at worst it will make them cranky, and soley your W's problem, I do feel the more real things get for her, the better chance that she comes to her senses and nothing can get more real than good ole travel stress.
Regardless your W should have her time with the kids, vaca where they wish .. these are things out of your control (for the most part) provided she is not going to move out of state nor put the children in harms way, thankfully my W never seemed to lose it THAT bad.
Yep. If I were your W, I'd be pissed because I would feel like you were controlling me. Especially after you had already said in an email previously, "no problem" - even if that wasn't your context.
I agree with Caliguy -five hours on a plane isn't THAT bad, and honestly? It's your W's problem to deal with. If the situation were reversed, would you like her telling you where you can and cannot take your children to vacation?
The issue is how much time they will spend on a plane. They will spend 5 hours going to X for 2 weeks and 5 hours coming back. My W then wants to take them for 4 days to X for 5 hours, and then return for 5 hours.
That's just a lot of plane travel for little kids.
But maybe y'all are right and I'm just too controlling.
Considering....
(You are being controlling)
I would be more upset that she is taking the kids without me and as a family. And it's okay to feel that way.
Heavy ... look at it this way .. your W is taking the kids for 4 days, Thats it ... plane train automobile does not matter, I recall my mom stuffing us in the back of a station wagon for what seemed like 4 days (I think it was only 6 hours) for a trip.
I know when I take my S(8) back home its 1 hour in the car to the airport, 3 hour flight, another 3-4 hours in the car ... we might stay 4 days then back home .... believe me the little kids handle it WAY better than my old a$$ does. I used to drive it all the time in my military days, 18 hour drive, no more of that insanity.
I just get the vibe its about you here, I understand you are trying to shield the kiddos from the crazy MLC/WAS or whatever ... thing is she is their mom too ... My W took S up north 6-7 hour car drive, she is probably legally blind when it gets dark, but if I were to say No, that robs S of a fun memory filled trip with just him and his mom, plus just creates more things for her to dislike about me, I like you did not want her to do that trip but that was just because I felt all I loved was in that car without me, did not want me and it hurt like hell, again .. its not about us, its their journey and we are on our own.
I know you are right
I just sent her an email giving my OK
Blows as usual
Heavy,
Just saw your bat signal and saw that many good folks have already swung by here talking you off the ledge. Yeah, they all are correct in their view of your true underlying reason for saying "no"....however painfully difficult it may have been for you.
I say let them have the kids as LONG as there's no real danger in any of the activities they partake in together.
Keep going...one foot in front of the other...eyes straight ahead.
I agree with everyone and your decision: it's really not that bad for the kids. As I've explained on my thread, I had to agree to my WW and OM taking my kids to the beach overseas this summer. It hurts because it will be their first time and I won't be there, but it's the new normal.
So I just met with W to pick up S9 hearing aid. She called and asked to meet for the pick up. She had broken it trying to clean it improperly.
It was a drive by interaction, I said hello, thank you and off she drove. Total encounter time 25 seconds. There was no eye contact. I tried to be light and breezy, she acted like she could not wait to drive away.
She has a new hairstyle, new aviator sunglasses and had the "I've moved on attitude." I always told her how beautiful her hair was when it was long and now it's all chopped off. its like everything she was, has changed, everything she once believed in has changed, she really is not recognizable to me.
So sad to think this was the person I shared my life with, confided my hopes and dreams with, and have two children with.
Again, who is this person? Her new attitude and hair scream I am free and am liberated from the prison.
Wait - I am mindreading. She may not be thinking that at all. But that's how it "felt" anyway. I know feelings should not lead our decisions, but....
Yup ... ^^^ Been there, done that, have the shirt.
I recall one 'hostage exchange' where she came up to the door, short shite shorts, heels, sailing-type top, and yeah .. Aviator Sunglasses, said she was meeting up with a GF at a brewery ... shame that GF was on my FB posting about how fun Rio has been all week .... but yeah that image still stuck in my mind, and like you put it ... they put on the face like its all good and they have moved on, thing is ... its just a mask, just like the OP, they are using that stuff for a fix, to feel better, still hurts .. but its not real, deep down you know that and can see it ... but for now your W has been abducted by aliens