Link to last thread:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2552657&page=1Thread named as such because I never thought I'd get to a point when, overall, things were ok. It changes things, now I have to decide what I want to do, instead of just doing whatever I could to stop the bleeding.
Recap:
*D negotiations are currently underway. I have elected to make a stand for 50% custody.
*No real conversation with WAW since November. She has done some things that have made me wary enough to want to remain L only through the D process.
*Moved into apartment 12/1 (after 4 months of couch surfing).
*I am a more engaged father than EVER before and loving my time with my children.
*My newish sales job of 6 months is going well although I feel a tremendous amount of pressure
*I still play pool when appropriate and enjoy the game
*I am not focused on WAW at all, only myself and my family. I am currently porn free, more in touch with my feelings and better able to handle them, and less critical of myself and others. I have come a long ways and am doing very well, but am not complacent.
Thank you all for following. You know, it's all good.
I had my children this weekend. Yesterday I took them for a walk around a lake on a path near my old work. It leads through woods, etc. Not a hike, a paved trail. I want to get them hiking this summer so I started with a nice casual walk, we'll hike next time on something easy. It was a 3 mile walk, just the right length as my 4 year old was getting tired towards the end but we all made it just fine. IT. WAS. A. BLAST.
Then we watched Sister Act, my daughters LOVED the music (and S10 did too, he's really good about being open to things that aren't normally up his alley because I take an interest in what he's doing as well).
Today I read to them out of the children's bible, read the story of Moses because they didn't know it. Then we watched a video about it (beginners bible on youtube) so they could compare versions. We'll read the rest next time.
My friend has 3 kids their age, we will be joining them for church and going on some hikes together.
All in all, I've never had so much fun with my kids and it's ALL good. I am SO GLAD I decided to go for 50% custody. And I am SO GLAD the D took as long as it did. I might have accepted much less 6 months ago because I didn't know I could do this as a father. Just another example of how we don't always know what's best, and sometimes someone is looking out for us.
Tonight I found a picture my D made. She gave it to me the night she found out I wasn't coming back home. It was a picture of the three of them, AND of my two dogs that passed a year or two ago. It had the three kids and the dogs there reaching out to me, and a big smiling dad holding out my arms to them. It said "We will miss you dad". I started crying when I saw that picture. I cannot tell you how horrible it felt to be forced away from my family, how devastated I was taking that picture and pulling out of the driveway that night, away from the home I had with them. Looking back I didn't have to leave, but it happened so fast before I found DB (and my IC said if I hadn't STBX might've gotten me removed with a court order even if it meant fabricating an 'incident').
Point is, when I started I was depressed. I was torn apart from my family. I was a disconnected father. I was using porn. I was relying on my STBX's opinion of me to make up for my own lack of self esteem and inner happiness. I was spiritually numb. And I was thinking of giving up.
Now I have my kids, and will get more time with them in the future God willing. Things are going so well. Yes, I have a ways to go, and I ended my last thread by talking about it...but I also have a history of being really hard on myself, and being a perfectionist. And looking at where I am vs. where I was...well, I honestly couldn't be happier.
I sincerely want to thank all of you who have helped me find this path.
Well I wasn't one of them Zeus, but you sure helped me find my path. I wish I had've found DB, or rather me, earlier so that I did have a chance of saving the M. I still do, in so far as I am still open to reconciliation. But the truth is, as I know you feel the same way, I probably wouldn't have found me if it wasn't for being stripped bare.
I hope you get 50% with the kids. For me (apart from being my world) they are ....guidance. To have this pure love in my life has been a source of strength for me. If you do end up with less than 50%, you will always be their Dad, and you can still enjoy that purity and all the fun times with them.
Also times change, in a few years - who knows. Here at least you can re-apply later. After a certain age the kid gets to choose, also 6/8 (split) days per fortnight becomes the courts default position. So the onus would be on your W to show why the court should order differently. Then 2 guys I know ended up with the kids a few years later after the kids had had enough of their Mum, her behaviour (they stayed as WAWs the rest of their lives in their future Rs)
One thing I think about more so now than ever before is the relationship I have with my own parents, and the future relationship I want to have with my kids. I am sure your kids will appreciate and benefit from the wisdom you have gathered from this turmoil, and ongoing learning. All the best Z.
-Py
Glad you are feeling better. Not read your link yet, but just wanted to say that. Hope I'll get there too soon!
Good luck!!
TODAY WAS A FIRST!
I was at lunch with a co-worker that was really fascinated about what I'd gone through over the last year. First off, he was really impressed with the way I've handled things, and I was like "you know what, I have done a pretty good job". I don't give myself credit enough because I'm not perfect. But I've handled myself pretty darn well.
But the funny part was I started talking about how I'd gotten closer with my kids, been showing them a strong example, becoming a spiritual leader in my family, doing well in my new job and providing, and just stepping up over all. I talked about how I've never been tighter with my kids and I could tell they needed me to be strong for them, that I was allowing them to breath deeper and walk taller.
And I found myself saying "Yeah, this has been like the best year ever".
After I said it I couldn't believe the words came out of my mouth. I mean really? Was I delusional? This has been the most horrible thing I've ever experienced, and it has hurt me more deeply and irreversibly than I thought was possible. What was I talking about?
But that's what I said. And even if I am conflicted at times, I realized I have come a long ways if that's even in my spectrum of outlooks.
I recalled a Ted Talk by Dan Gelb. He talks about natural happiness vs. synthesized happiness. If you haven't seen it you are *REQUIRED* to watch at least the first 8 minutes (look it up on youtube). He talks about the "Glorious experience" of going to jail, and the paraplegic/lottery situation. So I knew this was possible. It's just cool to see it play out this way.
Thank you DB.
Will check out the Ted Talk later.
Good for you Zeus
.
I can appreciate your conflict. I hope I get to that point. I'm lucky to think a whole day has been OK, let alone GREAT.
Remember in that movie city slickers when the 3 friends are talking about their best day and worst day. For one guy his emotional best day story, was also his worst day. Maybe that is where we are. It is just EXTREME, either way.
Nonetheless, excellent that you can see it in a positive light. credit where credit is due my friend. pat yourself on the back.
Glad you had such a good day yesterday, Zues. It is such a strange feeling to find happiness and moments of content at such a difficult time. Nice that your children are reaping the benefits of working on you!
Since we don't have children, for me it has been from focusing on reconnecting with old friends and my own personal growth. I think being in a challenging marriage makes you forget about your own personal development and spirit, which is part of the reason you find yourself in a difficult marriage.
One of the things I appreciate about DB is that regardless of what happens with me and my H, I know I am doing the work to be a better person/spouse (to whomever is the recipient)moving forward. That is what helps push me forward and stay positive.
Will check out the Ted Talk.
Keep on keeping on!
Thanks BW. The best part is it wasn't just a good day. I'm there more and more of the time.
I told my friend I think the reason I feel so good is contrast...I was in so much pain for so long, that just not being in soul crushing torment feels like I'm walking on air. Truly.
I mean, not only has this 10 months been more difficult than I can put in words, but the 3 years before it were every bit as hard. Things are FINALLY starting to clear, and I'm just so bubbly about it I can't help but babble and shoot long posts all over the place. Thanks DB and company!
*No real conversation with WAW since November....when I started I was depressed. I was torn apart from my family. I was a disconnected father....I was spiritually numb. And I was thinking of giving up....And looking at where I am vs. where I was...well, I honestly couldn't be happier.
Wow man. Just...wow. I'm glad I finally read up on your whole situation Zues. I think you epitomize making DB about yourself and not about the spouse.
My WAW and I are both 35 too. I hope I'm as grounded as you when I get to that stage of separation.
5 months NC. All these amazing positive changes. She knows. She feels it. She probably can't even look you in your eye bc of who you are now.
I am so happy for you Zues.
*No real conversation with WAW since November....when I started I was depressed. I was torn apart from my family. I was a disconnected father....I was spiritually numb. And I was thinking of giving up....And looking at where I am vs. where I was...well, I honestly couldn't be happier.
5 months NC. All these amazing positive changes. She knows. She feels it. She probably can't even look you in your eye bc of who you are now.
Thanks guys!
You know, Real, the funniest part? It hadn't even DAWNED on my that my STBX might have noticed anything. I think somewhere a couple of months ago I made peace with the fact that I'd always be worthless and not marriage material, a bad fit, a bad guy, whatever. I'm not minimizing her feelings or my actions during the M, but we're no longer M and I really don't care anymore what she thinks. So the idea that she might someday see something positive in me struck me as rather novel and amusing, like a juggling bear.
I personally don't think her POV will change, but who knows. I'm just glad it's not occupying my thoughts!
And yes, you will get there. Just remember ever moment of suffering is a needed step. Talk soon!
I too am very happy for you!
Zues,
I am so happy for you, too! What an amazing example you are for all of us.
I really loved what you wrote in a recent post:
"I personally don't think her POV will change, but who knows. I'm just glad it's not occupying my thoughts!"
If my M is not DB'd, I pray that I can have an attitude like you.
Again, I'm really happy for you and proud of you.
Bob
I come back to this tread because I feel I need to read of someone who has come a far way from where I am at the moment.
Even though I know I've gone through heartbreak before and not only been ok, but great, it's so hard to keep that thought present so just reading this helps a little bit.
Thanks! Happy for you!
Fantastic! You have given me some really good input from your own personal growth and it gave me thoughts for reflection.
I would love to be where you are by the end of 2015.
Thanks Smothy.
I've been posting everywhere but here. Gans thread, JB's, yours, Py's, etc.
One thing I just mentioned has to do with my feelings of self worth. I feel my personal self worth is very good right now, but what I feel I am worth to a woman is very low.
Like if you loved a certain movie that you'd tried to share with several different friends and everyone else hated it, and it got horrible reviews. You still like the movie, but you learn that no one else really does.
There was an exchange where Lisa B said "it would help if he was hot and good at sex" and Jelly B agreed. What's strange is my immediate reaction was "hmmm, that rules me out, I'm not attractive and would probably be a disappointment for them in bed".
What's strange is that unlike my movie example, I don't know that I've gotten a ton of negative feedback. It's more like I've been afraid to share that movie with anyone else because I'm afraid of a negative reaction. And as for the last part, I have no reason to think I'm unattractive, or to think I couldn't make a woman very happy. The frustrating part is I think in my head that I would be an absolutely fantastic partner because I am sensitive, loving, loyal, smart, funny, open, honest, gifted, and accepting...however somehow in my heart I feel like I have some flaw that once women see who I really am they will cut bait.
To be fair, because of my fears and introverted nature I have only been with two women (both of whom pursued me initially, then cheated and broke it off at the end), but I have always been repulsed with the idea of playing the field or sewing my oats. I really just want one woman in my life. So I've basically had minimal contact with other woman except for the two relationships I had, I'm not out seeking or achieving a lot of affirmation from women. Neither had any negative feedback about my looks or performance. However, I can see that if I am convinced of my low worth (and need constant reassurance that I'm good enough) that can be picked up on and devalue me to women, or to my partner, who could then actually start to agree with my negative self assessment.
I'm not really sure how to change that, or even if I really need to. If it requires me to go on lots of dates and hook up with a number of women I am not really interested. I understand that would 'work' as I am in sales, and I know how confidence builds as you 'close more deals'. But I don't want to close a lot of deals. Personally I would rather just try online dating, wait until I find someone that would rather share openly and honestly who they are and what they want, as well as their beliefs. And then be prepared to do a better job so that my insecurities don't translate into destructive behavior. What I'd need is a woman that can understand my battle and not FIX me, but simply be my partner and support me as I continue to do great things in my life for the both of us.
This is where I am on May 3. So yes, I am personally doing quite well. Thanks for the kind words.
So the question- is there another way to build confidence in your value to a member of the opposite sex without trying to become a playboy? If not, is there something wrong with the path I would then choose above?
This isn't a firm plan, I'm a long way out from taking any action as I am M and am nowhere close to ready. But this is part of my journey to get there.
Zeus,
I think that is something you have to build within your self and not through outside affirmations. I deal with the same issues sometimes. When I met my H, with self worth was at a high, but then I let my self esteem start to dip and self doubts start to sabatoge my M through my actions. I let criticism from my H and the fact that I gained weight start to eat away at me and fear that my H was starting to see the real me and would reject me. That is partially why I started to pull away from my H. Protection mode. This is one of the areas that I have been working on.
I am reading a book called, Breaking the Chain of Low Self-Esteem, by Marilyn Sorensen. I would not say my self esteem is super so, but on the lower to moderate side. It also ebbs and flows. It has really helped my understand why I did some of the things I did in my M. I think my H has some of this too, but we tend to attract people with the same issues I think. There is a workbook you can buy too.
You might want to check out a TED Talk by Brene Brown on vulnerability. I think it might be relevant.
Hi BW05.
Try a book called Homecoming. It's about your "inner child". I'd recommend the audible.com version.
Thanks guys. You know, I'm ok. I think all the DBing is making me surprisingly more confident. Like the 'two wolves' parable says, I've been feeding the right wolf lately. So when I have doubts about who I am and what I bring, it's easier to laugh at those doubts because I'm very proud of what I've been doing. Working on myself, working on R skills, being committed to making my M with my spouse #1, and demonstrating the character needed to stand for my M through what could only be the "for worse".
When I was medicating with porn, exhibiting destructive behavior that diminished my partner and left her unfulfilled, was completely out of balance with my job and hobbies, and was a distant father...well, those thoughts hurt me much more. Now I'm like 'meh, I may not be the life of the party, but I'll make some girl's day.' So while I'm not the guy that will be in the middle of a group of women at the dance floor, I will be strong enough to be a leader in my household and strong enough for my future W to feel safe and protected.
After realizing that it made me motivated to do even more. No, you can't fill a bottomless hole with achievement, been there and got the shirt. But when you take healthy steps it does make you feel better. I'm a big believer in the power of goals, so I did something I've been meaning to for a while. I wrote out a list of the goals I want to accomplish. It's not an A+ (not all are specific, measurable, or have a finish date, etc.) but it was a step. Sometimes the first step is the hardest. So here they are:
1. Pray. Be appreciative for what I have every day.
2. Be an awesome dad (I told you they were too vague).
3. Kick ass at work.
4. Exercise 3+ times weekly. I'm about 20 pounds off.
5. Get organized. My STBX handled the finances and kept the place up. I haven't developed the best habits yet, and I still have stuff in my room to unpack/store from 12/1. Once I got the kids room and living room set I lost my momentum. I want to turn this place into a man lair, and while I am in no danger of another woman seeing the inside of my bedroom, I'd like it to represent me well (the way you might wear nice underwear even when you don't intend to show them off).
6. Stay on top of my pool game so I don't backslide from what I worked so hard for.
7. KEEP GROWING.
So today I exercised, I got a hair cut, went grocery shopping for the kids when they come tomorrow and this weekend, did my laundry, and I will be knocking out a few hours of work for my job this evening so I am a step ahead on the week. I also cleaned the kitchen, got rid of some old boxes that I didn't need, etc. Oh, I also got a massage. Just a touch of self care as a reward for a productive day off.
Last rambling topic for the post, this forum has wet my thirst to meet someone new. As you all can see this last month I've been on a bit of a posting binge. I think it's because some of you have said some nice things to me, and it has met some of my emotional needs because that makes me feel liked, valuable, understood, etc. It has made me realize how nice those things are, and I do look forward to the day that I can have more of those things with one special person.
But then I see that I'm still a ways out. Obviously I'm married, but even after that changes...I am still a bit jaded. I feel like if a woman expressed interest I would feel the need to put her in a police interrogation room with bright lights and trying to see if she would break:
"Which of your friends have gotten divorced? Did you feel it was justified? Why or why not? How did your last R end? Did you leave or did he? Have you ever cheated on your partner? What do you feel are appropriate boundaries between you and members of the opposite sex? If you feel stuck in a M and like you'll never be happy if you don't leave, how would you handle that? What examples can you cite from your personal life to back that up?"
I wish DB coaches had a dating service. If someone worked with a DB coach for 2 years and the M couldn't be saved, they would compare notes and make recommendations. At least then I'd feel like I was fishing in the right pond. But again, all of this will change, that's why I'm glad I have time.
And of course, while the thought of trying to piece my M back together if STBX ever opened that door is truly scary at this point (ALL I can see are problems and broken parts), I believe that those feelings could change and anything's possible. I am not rooting for that at this point because I can't really imaging feeling safe or cared for with her...but then again she said the same thing and I'm a different man, so who the heck knows, maybe she'll have a change of heart AND become a woman I believe would be able to answer the above questions in a way that would work for me. POINT IS, even though it seems impossible and undesirable, continue to stand I will.
Z out!
1. Pray. Be appreciative for what I have every day.
2. Be an awesome dad (I told you they were too vague).
3. Kick ass at work.
4. Exercise 3+ times weekly. I'm about 20 pounds off.
5. Get organized. My STBX handled the finances and kept the place up. I haven't developed the best habits yet, and I still have stuff in my room to unpack/store from 12/1. Once I got the kids room and living room set I lost my momentum. I want to turn this place into a man lair, and while I am in no danger of another woman seeing the inside of my bedroom, I'd like it to represent me well (the way you might wear nice underwear even when you don't intend to show them off).
6. Stay on top of my pool game so I don't backslide from what I worked so hard for.
7. KEEP GROWING.
Hey Z!
I feel you set some incredible goals. Good for you. I have seen posts from you on probably any thread I've posted on or had a few minutes to review. You are on a posting binge, you're right. If I may be so bold as to speak for all -- "
we really appreciate your time, encouragement and wisdom."
I really liked BW05's commments. I also have a book to recommend about building self-esteem. The title is "You Can Heal Your Life" by Louise Hay.
Hang tough Z.
Bob
Thanks Bob. Some of them have already been happening. Praying, crushing it at my job (I hit 6 months tomorrow and graduate from being a 'rookie', my training manager told me he's never seen someone come so far so fast
), and being a REAL dad (not perfect, but right there with them!). Now I want to take it to another level!
You're welcome, Z! Good for you. I know you can take it to the next level. What a great attitude you have. I have learned so much from you.
Keep a stiff upper-lip my friend.
Bob
Go Z
- for the team, for you!!
you have helped me infinitely and I will forever be in your debt.
i know what you mean about the interrogation bit. it just all seems to hard no matter which way you go. new R or M.
your last Para. sums up what I was trying to say elsewhere - but altering some "words" maybe.
And of course, while the thought of trying to piece my M back together if STBX ever opened that door is truly scary at this point (ALL I can see are problems and broken parts), I believe that those feelings could change and anything's possible. I am not rooting for that at this point because I can't really imaging feeling safe or cared for with
her...but then again she said the same thing and I'm a different man, so who the heck knows, maybe she'll have a change of heart AND become a woman I believe would be able to answer the above questions in a way that would work for me. POINT IS, even though it seems impossible and undesirable, continue to stand I will.
change the genders, the very last bit "I will" AND this could be what your wife(and mine) said to herself, friends, IC when she dropped the bomb.
SO is that the point we are heading for? aiming for? All of the self growth we are trying to "learn", maybe they already did that. maybe they already had that. tell me why I am wrong please.
Zues,
Reading through the last day or so posts, I know exactly where you are. If you aren't aware, I had no clue that anything was wrong in my M before BD and I remember just a month or so prior saying how thankful I am that I never really needed to 'date.' My WW was my first serious GF and we were good friends that developed into more.
Also, I understand the feeling of self-doubt when it comes to women. I've always been really comfortable with women, I'm friends with many more girls than guys. However, the reason is because I'm 'friends' with them and nothing more. I've always been really timid when it comes to anything other than that and I've never been sure why.
Not sure if you know but, WW is totally non-existent in pretty much every way in my sitch. So, while I would love to R (especially for the kids) I feel like I'm at the point that unless there are HUGE changes in her its not in the cards. I'm still standing for my M, but I'm also at the point (as others have said since the beginning) that I don't want to R for the wrong reasons and I see no progress right now. So, I made the decision that I would tip-toe back in and make new connections. Mainly from a social standpoint.
Moral of the story is that through all of this, I see my confidence is much better than I ever thought it would be. The classic trait of being fearful until you try. Now, it may be that I'm pretty sure that I'm not interested in dating, so the pressure is off. IDK. Just letting you know that sometimes we even surprise ourselves.
Hold the faith guys... Most of us are looking for men who can lead us and our families and who know how to create intimacy. The work you have done here, stands you in good sted, I came to dating and relationships late in life, but in a short time I kissed a lot of frogs looking for the man who was right for me.
From my experience of the dating world you both will be just fine. There is so much more learning you have to do about yourselves and you will learn it. The first time you reject someone when you know they have feelings for you, that will be an eye opener!
I dealt alot with men who were constantly confused about their what they wanted. If you know that you are a relationship guy and not mr mr I'll see what's out there and I might have some causal relationship and see if anything comes of it.... There are women out there looking for you. Women want mr relationship guy! If they don't you will know!
You have to remember there are women out there who have been where you have, sorting through worries of am I good enough, sexy enough, generally am I Enough! They are looking for what you have to offer if it kind honest open and you make her feel like a prize! She may well want to date you and maybe more. But you know she may not!
Btw Zues, a man is good looking and good in bed, when a girl knows that he gets her and he loves her and thinks she is a prize!
And if you look into research about attraction you will find this to be the case. Women find their men more good looking physically the better they are treated and more secure in the relationship they are. As for good sex, well that is relative to the two people involved!
yeah yeah, save it
i have heard that line since i was a teenager - but i can guarantee that i was never envious of the SNAG in the corner of the room. still who knows, i haven't been single for a while. maybe at 40+ i'll clean up
So the question - is there another way to build confidence in your value to a member of the opposite sex without trying to become a playboy? If not, is there something wrong with the path I would then choose above?
I'll echo what JellyB has already said. Each to their own - I'm sure you do just fine, Zues. The reality is that the lady on the receiving end is most likely struggling with the confidence just as much as you! As for your value - well the very fact that you are posting in this forum says a lot about your value!
I know I'm banging on about the books by Schnarch, but one of the other core concepts is about self vs other validated intimacy. Knowing who you are and what you are about rather than relying on someone else's view of you (i.e. being able to share your video with someone else no matter what they think about it) - that's self-validated intimacy....and its the key to being able to tolerate really close relationships without feeling like you've lost yourself.
I wish DB coaches had a dating service. If someone worked with a DB coach for 2 years and the M couldn't be saved, they would compare notes and make recommendations. At least then I'd feel like I was fishing in the right pond. But again, all of this will change, that's why I'm glad I have time.
Sounds like a plan Z. All you need is a database(db). hook them up. lethal fire off the interrogation questions. a D-unBed- DB. I'm terrified of being attracted to a woman only to find out she was a WAW, A failed, etc etc." Are you repentant/remorseful? Not that I'm judging - arrrrgggghhhh"
MCS! Yes, I've trolled your threads. I for whatever reason just haven't found a good point to jump in. But yes, I understand that things are always hardest in your head. I mean, millions of men find partners. If all of them can do it, I don't know why I couldn't!
Py and Gan...I've posted enough on your threads to make the DB forum's server start to lag so I'll keep it short. Thanks for the replies. You've got me. I'll order Shnarch on my next amazon bender. I'm sure with a name like that he has learned a lot about how to self validate
Jelly...Jelly...What great energy. Thanks for the pep talk. Sometimes I feel so old fashioned. But you're right, there are people out there that are a good fit. I've been a little dismissive of the good fit thing before, I felt people spend way too much time trying to find the right partner, and not enough time appreciating the flawed partner they have. But I'm starting to learn that by finding a partner that is at least a fit on SOME level can take very real pressure off down the road.
Overall I think I'm doing ok, and I'm pumped about where I'll be in 6 months, and 12 months. I plan on knocking out those goals. I know that I've come a long ways in the last year. If that repeats itself I might feel like austin powers...:)
Bob723,
I will need to take a look at that book. I just bought one of Schnarch's books based off of Gan's recommendation. I think I have about 10 self help/marriage books to read already (LOL) so need to wait.
BW05
Agree with everyone else in that you and others are doing the work for future R and will do great. In that regard our Ss are not and will bring same crap to next R if they don't bother to fix with our Ms.
Woot. I was "rookie of the month" for April. Second time in my 6 months. Now I "graduated" and am not a rookie anymore. My training coach that supports me for my first 6 months told me last Friday he has never seen someone come so far so fast. Oh, and that's backed up by a paycheck bigger than I've received in my entire life.
Just thought I'd share some good news. Now it's a new month and things are starting slow. I'm super stressed and anxious. Everything is going well, but until I'm 1-2 years into this job and have enough history to really feel like I'll be able to keep it up I can't help but be anxious. If you look at my goals, many of them require serious cash. Money isn't everything, but killing it at work will make my quality of life better, and open the doors to a place where my kids have their own rooms, I can get a pool table, a car big enough to take them on trips, and just be more at ease. Also, when I'm ready to find the right woman, I want to be able to take care of her (whether she wants to work or not, I'd like to be able to celebrate half birthdays with new yachts
)
Anyway, I really appreciate the support, positive feedback for the things I'm doing right, and compassion and sensitivity for the areas I'm still putting back together.
Congrats on the success at work!
Congrats Zues
Congrats Z. Leaps and bounds
You know what's even better? I'm truly having fun. I am a territory salesman for a big national bank, and cover a lot of miles. Today I had two appointments about 1.5 hours south of where I live, and tomorrow morning at 9AM I have another appointment in a town around the same area, so I just booked a hotel.
Hey, no kids tonight, so I can just stay here.
So I check into the hotel, get some work done, then I'm surfing DB forums for a while. I go out for a walk to grab a little gas station cold sub dinner and I'm walking down the street and I just got so happy. It's nice out, I'm walking on green grass.
And my job is B2B sales, I started seeing other businesses I've worked with, and then I saw the business I'll be meeting with in the morning. And I'm just so happy because I've got this cool job. Shoot, I dropped out of college after 1 semester, I thought I'd be driving a fork lift my entire life. And that's no offense to people that work manually, but I'm just glad I have a job that taps my competitive nature.
Yes, I'm anxious because I haven't succeeded but that's what drives me to work hard. I always said to my sales staff "if you're worried, then I'm not worried. If you're NOT worried, then I AM!" You need to be engaged to perform.
But anyway, I just realize I'm having more fun in my life than I have since I was 18. The title is true.
Yes, I think of STBX daily. Everytime I feel good I think of her, almost like I'm testing a tender point to see if it still hurts. And you know what? Not much pain.
I want to describe this better so new posters know what lies ahead. I took my kids to the science museum a couple of months ago, and I was really talking up the "omnitheatre", this big dome that plays movies that's really cool. Unfortunately they were all sold out, so they told me about a fire demonstration that sounded cool. THAT show was cancelled. I was really bummed. I wanted to take them, it would've been great! But you know what? We were there, so we checked out other exhibits, hung out as a family, and had a great time anyway! THAT'S how I feel about the D. I'm not thrilled with the way this turned out. It's not what I wanted. I'm REALLY bummed I can't give the kids the life I wanted to and can't protect them from this destruction. But that's life, and I CAN teach them how to lead through adversity.
I will continue to stand because that's who *I* am. And it would be great if she chooses to step up to the plate, do a 180, quit drinking, take responsibility for her life, do some work, etc. I'm neither saying that's impossible or hoping that will happen. I am just pumped because I'm done playing the "percentage game".
I would love that miracle to happen, but I'm not expecting it, and I am totally prepared to finalize our D, accomplish my goals, continue to grow, and prepare myself for a great rest of my life. And hopefully someday in a couple of years I'll be ready to find the right woman. And I want to do everything I can between now and then so that when I am in an M with that woman I can give her the H she deserves.
Thank you DB for listening. You guys are a BIG part of the reason why I've been doing so well lately. Much appreciated.
Congratulations Zeus, it couldn't happen to a nicer guy.
You are amazing, what you've accomplished at work thru these troubling times and the support you give so many of us on this forum.
It doesn't seem to matter who's thread I'm catching up on -- there pops up a "Z" post. And, your advice is so good.
We are blessed to have you take such an interest in all of us.
Bob
There lots to say Zues...not sure of the words....you are quite something xJB
Hey Zeus,
you mentioned another time that you W was also a neurotic mother. So did she drink then?
you probably have read that my W doesn't want to see the kids on mother's day. She didn't want to see daughter on her b'day either. I know teatime she was out with OM. Probably this time as well.
my point is that she seems to have done a180 on this since BD. ALSO, I suspect that maybe I made her this way. Maybe she was trying to show me what a good mother she was. Not that I imposed this on her. HOWEVER, 10 years ago when our dog was a 6 week old puppy, I went out for dinner and checked that she was going straight home after Uni. She was, but then when I called her at ~8PM, she was out shopping and hadn't been home yet. I yelled t her about being a good mum (i meant to the puupy).
One of the issues at BD I have repeated several times was like this. The worst thing I ever did to her was make one flippant remark, which she misinterpreted and internalised, and stewed on for years.
Anyway, neither here nor there really. Just wondering if maybe you also have considered that as part of your perception of an ideal M, your W tried to be the perfect mother. Their personality/disorder or ours. Again neither here nor there. A bad combination of personalities/disorders though.
That is how I am starting to see my whole M actually. 12 years ago when we met, the combination worked. (At least) 3.5 years ago - we dropped the ball and stopped even trying (together) to make it work. We grew apart and got stuck in a -ve feedback loop. And then ---- BOOOM!
My W was and has been a very good mother in so many ways. She centered her life around making sure everything was perfect for them. And she has really done an amazing job overall.
One thing my DB coach and IC are both adamant about is that she uses the kids to meet her emotional needs. She tries to keep the children very dependent on her to feel needed, teaches them to tell her how much they love her constantly, and is a master of public relations to get as much attention and approval for being the perfect mom as she can. And as my children grow they don't need her as much, and you can see the issues starting to build where she feels betrayed, abandoned, etc. My DB coach says that parenting is about meeting their needs, not the other way around, and she anticipates some rocky years as they become teens.
To answer your question about drinking...this got out of hand after I moved out. Since 2010 she would smoke a little pot now and then. I knew how much because I would buy it for her. I always meant to buy it for us, but I rarely would smoke (maybe every couple of years?). I just had too much going on, work, pool, I wanted to be on my A game.
She started smoking a bit more when our three dogs finally passed away. I knew she was smoking nearly every night. I didn't feel like it was the end of the world. I knew she was depressed, talking to her doctor about it, and just thought she needed help to get through a dark patch. Smoking pot seemed like a joke to me in terms of severity, I was ok with her going on a little bender to get through a tough time, and I figured she'd regroup soon.
Instead the BD came, and after I moved out she switched to alcohol because it is more easily accessible and socially acceptable. I drink no more often than I smoke, and never to inebriation. I think alcohol is horrible. In any case, yeah, I know she's still off the rails. Just last week I dropped off my youngest and the garage door was open, there was a beercan on the garage floor in a puddle of beer.
Whatever. The only reason any of this matters is to monitor the situation to make sure my kids are safe. But the kids are getting their physical needs met by their mom, and I know they are blossoming at my place, so I'm controlling what I can and I will show my children what it means to lead through adversity you didn't choose to take on.
IS THAT ALL YOU GOT?!?!?
One thing my DB coach and IC are both adamant about is that she uses the kids to meet her emotional needs. She tries to keep the children very dependent on her to feel needed, teaches them to tell her how much they love her constantly, and is a master of public relations to get as much attention and approval for being the perfect mom as she can. And as my children grow they don't need her as much, and you can see the issues starting to build where she feels betrayed, abandoned, etc. My DB coach says that parenting is about meeting their needs, not the other way around, and she anticipates some rocky years as they become teens.
Again ---- uncanny -- could be my W. She is "funny" now because kids are LESS dependent. teenagers are going to be hard for her in many ways I suspect. youngest stopped breastfeeding, and she ignites A. I dont think it is complete coincidence. But then again, we (me&W) can discuss this at another time. Potentially. For me, now, it is irrelevant.
Whatever. The only reason any of this matters is to monitor the situation to make sure my kids are safe. But the kids are getting their physical needs met by their mom, and I know they are blossoming at my place, so I'm controlling what I can and I will show my children what it means to lead through adversity you didn't choose to take on.
IS THAT ALL YOU GOT?!?!?
Hey Zues,
Good for you -- you are awesome. That will mean so much to your children!
Take care please.
Bob
Thanks guys. I'm appreciative things are getting easier.
There are still some sad moments. Tonight when I was picking up the kids the garage door was opened and there was a ton of firewood piled up. I figured STBX must be planning some bonfires in the backyard this summer. I pictured a bunch of 20-35 year olds getting hammered, smoking dope, and her having her guy of the night stopping up to ML in the bedroom that was our marital bed.
I don't think I'm mindreading too much here because though we're not speaking, she made a point of telling the kids (in front of me) how she's gotta run to get more wood for the new firepit in the back. I chuckle about this 'talking to me through the kids' she's done sometimes. My DB coach says that she feels insufficient so tries to make comments that will make me feel that way, trying to make me feel like I'm missing out because she likely feels she's missing out on the family time I'm spending with the children this weekend. My DB coach gave me some sage wisdom about this type of exchange but I'm not reposting it, it's in my old threads.
Anyway, how do I feel? Yeah, it's a reminder of the rejection that it isn't my home anymore, and that she's boinging other guys after committing to just me those years ago. It's sad, because it's no longer about her not wanting to be M, now it's just who the person I was M to turned out to be. I've always been put off by that lifestyle, and was hoping to find someone that would not go down this road. It's disappointing that we didn't have the chance to do more fun things together, I would've loved to have had a few fires in the back yard with some quality friends, but that wasn't in the cards for us. And I'm sad that I don't have the M I wanted, that I wasn't able to walk a better path, and that she chose to go this route. Finally, my biggest source of concern at this point is whether my next woman will do this as well. I sure hope I can do better at selection and pulling my weight in the M. This really isn't how I wanted things to go.
But you know, time is passing and I am doing well. It is a reminder of the past, and I suppose it feels like a flashback to the loss I went through. But more and more it is a flashback, and not a present day battle. I wanted to type this out to just sit with the feelings for a moment, but as I type I'm already able to let those feelings go. I have a fun weekend planned with my children, hiking tomorrow, church with my friend's family on Sunday, and some time at home to chill.
Maybe this sounds morbid but you know, not only can't I control STBX, I can't control my future woman either. Who knows if I go through this again. Reading these boards for a while and you get the sense that M is impossible and it's just a matter of which of your friends your WAS will leave you for. But I take comfort in the fact that no matter what, I can get through on my own. And when the show is over I'll know that I did everything I could to walk the path I believed is right. Where it takes me I don't know, but I'll follow the only road I can and be able to look anyone in the eye at judgment day and know I did my best.
It's like my favorite picture from "Breakfast of Champions"- a tombstone with the following engravement:
Somebody
Sometime - Sometime
He tried
That does cheer me up. Ready to go hang with the kids. Thanks for the support all of you. I appreciate the reminder that many people walk this path. Hope to meet more like you in the future.
I don't think I'm mindreading too much here because though we're not speaking, she made a point of telling the kids (in front of me) how she's gotta run to get more wood for the new firepit in the back. I chuckle about this 'talking to me through the kids' she's done sometimes. My DB coach says that she feels insufficient so tries to make comments that will make me feel that way, trying to make me feel like I'm missing out because she likely feels she's missing out on the family time I'm spending with the children this weekend. My DB coach gave me some sage wisdom about this type of exchange but I'm not reposting it, it's in my old threads.
Zues, my W does this exact same thing. Only difference is her plans change every few days! I am glad your DB couch put it that way. I have felt like that is why my W talks about her plans through the kids. I hear alot of mom said we are going to do this and that. Enjoy your weekend with your kids.
Ha. And the lows get shorter. After I posted that I went and made dinner for the kids. We got into a really cool conversation about artificial intelligence, the future of computers, and what that might mean for the world.
My son is really into computers, games, programming, etc. My D was really into the conversation too. So I told them we'd stay up a hair late and watch a movie. I booted up "War Games", the old Matthew Broederick movie about a kid that hacks into the Air Force's computer that runs the countries defenses. Anyway, it was a lot of fun, they both enjoyed it and were really engaged, talking to each other, asking questions, talking to the screen. They thought it was a great movie and we had a ton of fun.
Only when I logged back in did I remember the post from earlier. Thanks for letting me get that out. I'm so appreciative that I've been allowed to let go of the bad feelings and enjoy this time with my kids. Tomorrow it's time for a hike! We're packing sandwiches and Gatorade, then hitting the dusty trails!
That's great Zues!! Sounds alot like me and my kids. It always helps me to get out of the lows by doing something with my kids. Have a fun hike!
Zues, I have to say your story here is of the most encouraging I've seen. There was a time when I thought for sure you were a lost cause, had given up DBing, thought you'd just drift off into the bitterness sunset. But here you are, an amazing man, an amazing dad, handing out good advice and encouragement to others. It's looking a lot like your M isn't going to work out, as so many don't, but wow, look at who you've become. Your STBX is a fool. Good for you.
Have a great day Z
Thanks Py, Joe. Yeah, Sunny, I had a lot of negative emotions to work through for sure. Some of it just takes time to process. Deep down I am not one to cling to destructive feelings, life's too short and that's not what I want my contribution to be. This has definitely been a deeply devastating voyage as being loving and loyal to the partner God gave you has always meant the world to me, but I've been shown I am here to choose my path, not anyone else's. Thanks for the support through the good and bad.
PS- just got back from our hike. We are all tired and it is naptime. Then dinner, a movie, and some free time. Church in the AM with my friend's family, then a little breakfast as a group. There have been some spats, but it's all good
This has definitely been a deeply devastating voyage as being loving and loyal to the partner God gave you has always meant the world to me, but I've been shown I am here to choose my path, not anyone else's. Thanks for the support through the good and bad.
PS- just got back from our hike. We are all tired and it is naptime. Then dinner, a movie, and some free time. Church in the AM with my friend's family, then a little breakfast as a group. There have been some spats, but it's all good
Hello There Z.
I feel the exact same way you described above. Devastating voyage, interesting way of putting it. Somehow, you must be really good at remembering that you are here to choose your own path. I know you have your rough times, but you always seem to bounce back quicky and are in a much better place than you were in the beginning. I think that has a lot to do with it.
I hope you had fun on your hike -- if you're all tired I take it you did.
Keep your chin up, Zues!
Bob
Zues, I hope you had a fun hike! Hope your day with your kids was as enjoyable as mine.
First church trip with kids today. They were sponges and had a great time.
I had two breakthroughs in the service. I'll save one for the moment, but the one I share has to do with what I'll be able to bring to my next M.
See, there are many things that I won't be able to bring. I won't be able to offer my virginity. I won't be able to offer my heart for the first time. I won't be able to make my future wife my first Mrs. Zues. I won't be able to have our first children together. And I won't be able to love with the blind devotion, trust, and faith that I had in my first M. I won't be able to give her my entire life together, as I've already walked a number of miles.
But then it hit me. I will be able to offer her a mature love. A love that has learned boundaries. A love that has learned to tend to myself, so that I can be a pillar of strength to her, instead of a bundle of anxious needs. A love that understands it takes more than positive intentions, but rather skills, sacrifice, and hard work to maintain itself. And a love that knows just how precious it is to share a life long commitment together.
I do grieve for what has been lost. It is beyond replacement. But I celebrate the fact that though there are many things I won't be able to offer to my future W, I will be ready to be a partner that she can count on to not just stick around, but to hold hands as we walk the rest of the path in front of us.
But then it hit me. I will be able to offer her a mature love. A love that has learned boundaries. A love that has learned to tend to myself, so that I can be a pillar of strength to her, instead of a bundle of anxious needs. A love that understands it takes more than positive intentions, but rather skills, sacrifice, and hard work to maintain itself. And a love that knows just how precious it is to share a life long commitment together.
I do grieve for what has been lost. It is beyond replacement. But I celebrate the fact that though there are many things I won't be able to offer to my future W, I will be ready to be a partner that she can count on to not just stick around, but to hold hands as we walk the rest of the path in front of us.
Hi Zues,
Well said - very inspirational!
Bob
Thanks Bob.
The other take away today was straight from the sermon, but it was one part that was really impactful to me:
LOVE NOTICES
The sermon was about how when Jesus asked to sum up all the hundreds of lessons about how God wanted us to live, the one he recapped was to "Love God, and love our neighbors as ourselves". Of all the things we are to do, that was what he chose to bring up when asked for a "cliff notes" version of how to live.
But it went on to discuss that for us to love our neighbors, we have to have the right vision. If we look at each other as inconveniences, as interruptions to our life, etc, then we won't be able to love each other because we will overlook the pain they are in, the needs they have.
I think of how many LBS's say they never knew their spouse was unhappy, or they didn't realize how deeply they wounded their partner. Instead of being resentful we didn't get more notice, I think we have to be accountable that we weren't in as truly loving a place as a M requires. It's not enough to simply love someone when we feel like it, or when the situation beats us over the head. To love our partner it means to make it a lifelong mission to understand their needs, how they feel loved, what their priorities are, and then despite our differences make the sacrifices necessary to validate and fulfill our partner lovingly.
In fact, that was the other part. The first was "Love Notices". The last was "Love Sacrifices".
So again, to tether in to my previous post...I hope for all of you and for myself that as we walk forward we'll all be not just acknowledging our partners needs when they scream at the top of their lungs and then debating, minimizing, dismissing, or making begrudging token gestures...but instead that we first NOTICE, then SACRIFICE, so we can fill our partners with love the way we commit to when we walk the aisle.
I had two breakthroughs in the service. I'll save one for the moment, but the one I share has to do with what I'll be able to bring to my next M.
See, there are many things that I won't be able to bring. I won't be able to offer my virginity. I won't be able to offer my heart for the first time. I won't be able to make my future wife my first Mrs. Zues. I won't be able to have our first children together. And I won't be able to love with the blind devotion, trust, and faith that I had in my first M. I won't be able to give her my entire life together, as I've already walked a number of miles.
But then it hit me. I will be able to offer her a mature love. A love that has learned boundaries. A love that has learned to tend to myself, so that I can be a pillar of strength to her, instead of a bundle of anxious needs. A love that understands it takes more than positive intentions, but rather skills, sacrifice, and hard work to maintain itself. And a love that knows just how precious it is to share a life long commitment together.
The first part of that made me a bit anxious thinking about for the first time. Something I haven't really considered before. The second part had excellent points that made up for it. Very intersecting.
I also took away something from my churches sermon today that caught me off guard. The idea was about sin and what we were holding onto instead of trusting God with. The series was titled "Mirror, mirror" and the pastor asked us to take a hard look into the mirror at ourselves and what we may be hiding from Jesus, to look at our sins and what we don't trust. First thought was W listening also and the sermon telling her to "look into the mirror at your sins".
Then I realized I haven't been trusting God with this situation, that I don't trust him to bring me through it with W at the end. But, that's what I want, not what I need. I basically prayed to give me what I need through this and let me become the person I should be. With W, with someone else, or alone. Trust that regardless I will be OK.
Zeus and Fogg, these are both beautiful posts that show incredible growth and courage and strength. Thank you for being willing to share these thoughts.
Now I've got you you son of a b1tch!!!
This is pretty raw for me and may resemble stuff I've talked about before, but I want to put it out there. This has been a thought that's teaching me how to grow.
The title comes from another book about interpersonal games, and it seemed appropriate. For the first time I TRULY understood what 25 talks about with forgiveness and letting go of score keeping.
First the easy part. I realize that for a long time (it's faded for the most part) I was repressing some really dark thoughts about my STBX. At least part of me was craving the day we'd be back together so she could pay for what she did. This is the controlling, angry, destructive part of me. And while it doesn't define me, I at least want to talk about what some of those desires look like:
Someday you're going to want what you lost, and when you do:
You're going to be accountable for what you put me through.
You're going to see where you were wrong.
You're going to sign an oath in blood saying you'll never do it again!
What I've learned from 25 and from common sense is that if you ever do R with your WAS, that just won't happen. The reality is that they won't ever understand what the LBS went through, and they won't remember much of what they did because it didn't hurt them like it hurt us. So they may have remorse, but if we are looking for understanding and apologies (at best) or revenge at worst, it can't happen. Score keeping will destroy it before it begins. Beyond that, there are no guarantees, that's not how life works. It's up to us to decide to build a good M FROM THIS DAY FORWARD, find forgiveness and trust, or not.
What I realized today is that while I don't harbor those feelings much for STBX...I DO for my future partner. I referred to the "police interrogation". I was serious. I have the desire to REALLY get my grips in my next woman to make sure I have her under control in several ways.
I want to make sure she doesn't go into the fog and become a WAS
I want to make sure she doesn't force me to live a sex starved marriage
Both are equally horrifying thoughts.
It has taken me some time to start to accept some hard lessons in life. I can DB all day long, but my next woman may become a WAS. I can DB all day long, my next woman may "starve" me sexually (the thought of which still feels gut wrenching).
There is no "strategy" that will change this. In the past I've wondered where these thoughts came from. Thoughts of "marrying down", finding a woman that depended on me financially, finding a woman that had so many problems she depended on my emotionally...all so I had control and could protect myself from these consequences. That doesn't work. That's what I tried to do in my M, and no matter how dependent she was, it didn't stop her from leaving. Control doesn't work.
I am SO working on letting go of that and trusting. I still can't picture myself trusting my needs to someone else. The terror of going through that rejection is still overpowering. Not trying to go on a tangent, but there's a reason many men like me turned to porn. It is so hard to open up with my needs, trust them to another person, and then have them diminished. Just as it's hard to make a life long commitment to someone, then have them tear apart a family.
But what's great about this is I can see clearly where I need to continue to grow. I need to accept that my next M will have times I am rejected. It may lead to her walking away.
Sometimes I think I'm trying to become such a relationship expert I can find a way to avoid those realities. But really I need to accept that I will likely experience much more pain again in the future, whether in one of those two forms or another I can't anticipate.
The questions are am I brave enough to put my heart out there anyway? Can I be healthy enough to put my best self forward so my needs and behavior are reasonable? And am I able to be satisfied with a M that still brings a lot of pain, and not grow resentment because it's not the paradise I feel entitled to because of the work I'm doing?
As I type this I am doing just fine. I have faith that this part of me can grow stronger, and the fearful/controlling part of me can lessen it's grip. And I do believe that with the right caution I can avoid a terrible mismatch. But I also believe I can accept reality, and learn to appreciate even a flawed M, that can be unfulfilling at times. There's more to a M than good times, no matter how many R books we read. I will find my strength in the path I walk, and not the rewards I receive. Although I do think it's fair to long for those good times as well.
Zues, I do think you'll find the right woman, who matches you intellectually and in the bedroom, and that you'll open up to her and be vulnerable because you are well aware that's necessary. I know you won't settle for someone you can control because what fun is that? I can well imagine the woman you need, there just aren't many of them in your age category, dear. It takes most of us a lot longer to figure those things out.
The questions are am I brave enough to put my heart out there anyway? Can I be healthy enough to put my best self forward so my needs and behavior are reasonable? And am I able to be satisfied with a M that still brings a lot of pain, and not grow resentment because it's not the paradise I feel entitled to because of the work I'm doing?
Scary. I commented before re: knowing when you were ready and NEVER feeling ready. I don't feel like I could handle it at all ATM, but do imagine what it will be like.
R with the W, I envisage the same things - payback time, being one of them. I think I have also commented to you before that the reality is ANY future R is likely to be with a woman as flawed as your W, or your former self. She might be a former WW, she might even be a really cunning WW in the throes, she probably won't be a DB'ed, continually growing woman (unless you start up that dating agency
).
For me, I feel it is summed up in "continually" growing. Which hopefully means that I don't need to be 100% "fixed" before I engage in another R. I will probably be waiting forever if that is the case. I also suffer from the same problem you have talked about before that I have always been anxious with women, transitioning from friends to romance. Now it is likely to be infinitely harder
.
Your comments about controlling your next R to avoid the same outcome. This is like the "personality/personality disorder" discussion. I am scared that I will even be preachy in my next R, or try to bring her up to speed on how to ....... But, i am quietly confident that these thing will settle. I have to consciously work on these things. What you are talking about is still around the corner for me, but in general I can see from things that have already happened. They gradually become part of who you are, settled.
Then I hope we can just enjoy everything else. I think Sunny is right. There is an age restriction to this. The odds of finding "that" woman are already slim, the odds of finding one that has outlived her years and become that woman....... I experience a "good sadness" sometimes. If my W had've walked with me then maybe we could have experienced this together and "that" woman would be my W. But as we ave all noted .... "rock bottom and then on your own".
Best o luck wrestling that SOB.
I didn't make this very clear but I meant that women in their 30s are generally not as self assured and self aware as those of us a little more mature. I know I wasn't. It takes some experience to figure out who we are and what we want.
Powerful stuff Zues. I just posted something in my own thread where I realize W may never see the pain shes caused me, and then I read this. This thought never crossed my mind before she might even if we reconciled. I always assumed part of our reconciliation process(If it happened) was her acceptance of what shes done, and really understanding how much shes hurt me. I guess I have been keeping score and didn't realize it, or maybe right now I still want to keep score. I know I'm not ready to forgive, not while the damage is still being done. One day yes, just not right now.
I also never considered learning SO much about relationships by going through this could actually sabotage my next. Lots to think about from your post, lots. Thanks for the perspective.
hi Sunny,
must've been me who was unclear. I interpreted it as you intended. I totally agree. I am in my 40's and only now getting because my life turned upsidedown.
-Py
Thanks Sunny. I don't believe in fairy tales but do think there will be some joy down the road.
It's funny, this came about because I have a good friend that is 23 and just moving in with his girlfriend, recently pregnant. He is super analytic and trying to do everything right, so he is starting lots of R talks, trying to discuss needs, plans, etc. She has been distant. He was starting to panic about her lack of engagement, and questioning her commitment and love for him. Cliff notes, I explained about the 'passion trap' push/pull dynamics, told him that people work on their R's in different ways, and that he needed to back off for a bit, give back 80% of what she was in terms of DISCUSSION (not in terms of other love acts), but to feel free to do all the planning and strategizing he wanted to on his own. Instead of joint pre-M counceling, I told him just to get his own IC. Takes one to tango!
This is what lead me to realize that not all M's are naturally fulfilling in every area. I think the key is to continue to be yourself, GAL, meet your own needs...not that sacrificing for your M is bad, because it is great! But because taking away the things that you use to meet your own needs puts MORE PRESSURE ON THE M as there are now more needs it has to fulfill! I'm thinking the answer is to meet as many needs as possible outside your M, but then still make your M your number one priority and sacrifice to show your partner they are the tops.
Point is, it got me thinking about these things.
Py, you're right. I will never be ready in my mind. When I gamble playing pool I always feel like it will be a super test...yet I have like a 90%+ win rate. Usually by the time I feel like "gosh, I don't know, I might be up for this fight" I get in the ring and am so overprepared I blow my opponent off the table. That goes for most of what I do.
In some ways that fear is good because it drives me to record levels of preparation, and that is usually why I do well. But you're right. If that's REALLY what it took to make a M work, no one would be married!
More and more I'm recognizing I can do this. I'll hold out for a woman that is confident and loving enough to choose to meet my needs, not one that is weak and crippled enough I can try to force her to. I do believe it.
In time...:) Thanks all!
Dude, have you read the Schnarch stuff yet or what? That ^^^ was like a direct quote. Seriously you are going to love it...
Thanks Gan, I figured. It's funny, hearing that from someone that used to be "enemy camp" from the point of view I had in my M...it's truly uplifting, and gives me a lot of hope that if we can find this level of mutual goodwill and admiration- well, maybe M is possible. Especially when we can keep the communication strong because I can tell you it's been very valuable to me. Thanks for the help along the path!
Hey, no worries. That bold bit though? That's pretty toxic stuff. Maybe that explains why all went silent on my thread when we picked up on this topic. Maybe everyone on the forum now sees me as the enemy camp
But back to you, I'm sure you can see it now, but that ^^^ attitude would have been a pretty challenging for your W to deal with. Not exactly going to make her want to make sexy time with you. You've gotta keep working through that, just like I need to keep working through my triggers (some of which still get a little tugged when I read your posts...nothing to do with you BTW, all to do with me and whatever head trash I forgot to take out).
Yeah Gan, I joke about painful stuff. "Enemy camp" was a joke that had a grain of truth because it represented the gap between understanding, and how when you're in an R and suffering it's easy to see your spouse as an opponent, and see their views as being the problem...this view did play a big role in the destruction of my M. It didn't help EITHER of us. I made her the enemy so to speak. She didn't feel like making sexy time, and now we are divorcing. There are no winners in a marital battle.
So I joke about it, and laugh at myself for my failures. Not vindictively, but out of compassion. Like how sometimes watching someone make a mistake you know they are about to make is funny, not because their pain is funny, but because it's so predictable and you've been there before. It's like, lol, we're all such flawed humans! You have to either laugh or cry.
I'll read the book, I promise!
Oh, completely agree about working through things. That really was behind my prior few posts. I've learned a lot, but my ultimate test is "if I was in my M again, could I do better now?" Better in a few senses:
Not resorting to controlling behavior to try to get what I wanted.
Not allowing resentment to fester to where I lost my good feelings for my W.
Being able to accept who she is, what she is able to give, and find my own happiness within an imperfect M.
Our dynamic was broken. One of us would be hurt with our encounters. Either I'd be hurt from rejection, or she'd be hurt by feeling cooerced.
The reason I still insist I have a long ways to go is that while I believe I could do better in that spot, I'm not sure about all three.
I know I could stop controlling behavior. I know I could stop being abusive. I just KNOW it.
Could I find a way to find acceptance and happiness with circumstances as they were? Could I continue to love her and avoid that from being swallowed by resentment?
Maybe that's not important. Maybe if I did a better job on my end, she would have been more free to be more giving. Maybe just stopping the controlling and trying to find acceptance is enough, and that things will grow from there to where I get enough of my needs met I can survive emotionally.
My STBX is capable of change, but as she is I don't know if it would've worked. The same way there are some serial cheaters, or alcoholics...I'm not sure she was really in a place where she'd have been receptive to understanding my needs, no matter how I behaved, no matter how I accepted what I had. I think it's possible that my acceptance would allow her to think there was no problem, and I can see how my feelings could follow that of a WAH in that regard. Instead of walking, I tried to control her or "wake her up".
Could I just accept being deeply wounded for many years, hoping she'd change someday, or if nothing else being willing to die in a miserable M and knowing I stood by my commitment? That's what I was trying to do, which is why we stopped talking. I didn't want to leave, I gave up on her, I just couldn't find a way to interact without causing each other pain so we stopped.
No, I'm not ready for a new R. I do need more time to work through these things. True, I can try to find a partner that is more mature, empathetic, and collaborative, and I can keep growing...that's the EASY part. The hard part is knowing that there will be some things in my next M that probably make me feel this way. If it's not sex, maybe it's something else I took for granted in my last R. Maybe my next W becomes alcoholic, or a gambler, or is highly critical or angry. Am I ready to accept what God has in store for me? Or do I feel entitled to more, and through that entitlement will stem resentment, control, and future M failures?
Day at a time. Grow. Relive. Pray. Trust. I think I can get there with some help.
Last thought on this and then I have to STFU and go to work.
I go to extremes a alot.
I picture myself in a terrible, resentment filled, sex starved M, with a W that lacks compassion and maturity...and I ask myself if I can find happiness there. It's like I'm fighting a battle, and I'm picturing myself surrounded with no allies.
But I'll have allies. She'll show me love in many ways. There will be warm moments. So it won't be "me trying to find happiness in a world void of love and filled with abusive actions". It will be me trying to find acceptance in a world with many good things, and some that aren't the way I would wish them to be.
That's a lot like life. I'm handling life. I think I can learn to handle a M next time around...
Again with same line(me and you) Z - dont get me wrong the tables could be turned here and you giving me this comeback after I voice the same "self-doubt".
Your questions of yourself are all valid. All I am saying is that there is only one way to answer them, and you know what that is. Also - IF ONLY I had've asked these questions of myself before. IF ONLY I had've even considered these questions could and should be asked. How many prospective partners out there do you think have asked these questions of themselves? How many of them do you think should have? Have been in the position we are in, or on the other side, and medicated their way out?
I am concerned that WE are rising our expectations in this respect. I envisage getting into a new R and my partner not open to this kind of discussion should it ever arise. We are in a minority I suspect. But not in the sense being emotionally ill equipped to deal with Rs, if etc. In the sense that we are pulling everything out of it that we can.
I am looking forward to an adult relationship. But I think the majority of adults are carrying all these flaws we are trying to resolve. Prospective partners are likely to have medicated their way out of similar R breakdowns and run straight to them if/when problems arise again. Should we then impose our "much better" way to grow out of them? Wouldn't that be "like" controlling again.
Maybe we can hope for the right person, that is either naturally equipped or has DBed their way out of this crap. I do think there is a chance of finding this. As SunnyB hinted at, more "experienced" partners might exhibit this, which for me now is a more important quality than those I considered 10 years ago.
In summary Z, the fact that you are even asking these questions suggests to me that you are already a cut above. I'm not suggesting you should start looking for Mrs Z - just dont NOT look. Nothing would make me happier than hearing you post that you have met someone that stirred feelings in you that you thought were academically dissolved and gone - well - maybe if i posted the same i would be pretty happy about that too.
I am looking forward to an adult relationship. But I think the majority of adults are carrying all these flaws we are trying to resolve. Prospective partners are likely to have medicated their way out of similar R breakdowns and run straight to them if/when problems arise again. Should we then impose our "much better" way to grow out of them? Wouldn't that be "like" controlling again.
One of my big problems in my M was my impossible expectations. I have been the type to accept nothing less than perfection or death trying. I put myself through hell but thought it was a winning formula because I was a champion.
What I found out is that doesn’t work in an M. Because I put my W through hell. She was so close to me I thought of her as part of me. So I ended up treating her as I treated myself, trying to drive her to higher levels. But that’s MY m.o., not hers. Yes, I don’t mind intense pressure, I thrive on it, it spurs me to great things. But for her, she just wanted to be accepted as she was, the way she was. She felt unloved because I didn’t accept her for herself, and felt controlled by my drive to get her to “step up” as a W. I felt like she wasn’t trying because she wasn’t doing any of the things I do when I’m giving 100%. I felt like I was on a team with someone that wasn’t trying. It drove me crazy. I am used to driving until exhaustion, then driving further. She seemed so apathetic, so willing to accept a poor M, so disengaged.
But I have learned that my desire for a GREAT marriage destroyed the possibility of having a good one. Who knows what it could’ve been if I had been able to accept her for who she was. Who knows how rewarding it could’ve been if I had been able to be satisfied, vs. constantly trying to find ways to make it better. I don’t. Maybe it couldn’t have worked. Maybe when one person wants to do great things as a partnership and one person doesn’t want to put effort into it that’s irreconcilable differences. I don’t know. But I don’t think so.
So I’m trying to let go of my expectations of a great M in my future, and I’m trying to practice finding acceptance for my partners flaws, and the pain that I feel because of them. Maybe my pain will be less if I accept it as normal. Maybe I can live with mediocrity in some areas of my life. I’m going to have to figure this one out, because honestly Py and DB forum readers, it would be nearly impossible for me to be paired with someone that sets the bar as high as me or drives as hard as me to get there.
You’re right Py, there is only one way to find out. I just want to practice for when the time comes. I don’t know that I’m setting myself apart by doing this. Maybe it’s just more of the same, me trying to achieve the impossible. Maybe medicating, rebounding, and settling for some dysfunction would actually be a healthy step because it would mean letting go of my desire for something glorious, spectacular, and unrealistic for most partners.
So yeah, lots to sort through for me. Thanks for letting me talk it out. In the meantime, I’m going to go back to work where I’m not on a team with anyone and I can go manifest my drive and destroy some goals.
So great to hear about all of your success and happiness Zues, I've followed a lot of what you've written on here and it's been a big help.
Sounds like your growing inner confidence is extending into your career success and will continue to do so. As corny as it sounds, people like to do business with people that they like! And if you're happy and keeping a positive attitude, that's going to show up in every aspect of your life.
Keep it up man!
it would be nearly impossible for me to be paired with someone that sets the bar as high as me or drives as hard as me to get there.
and my guess is it would be nearly impossible for the two of you to remain paired! I suspect there would be so much friction, you'd be lighting fires where you walked
Zeus,
I wanted to chime here to share my perspective.
So I’m trying to let go of my expectations of a great M in my future, and I’m trying to practice finding acceptance for my partners flaws, and the pain that I feel because of them. Maybe my pain will be less if I accept it as normal. Maybe I can live with mediocrity in some areas of my life. I’m going to have to figure this one out, because honestly Py and DB forum readers, it would be nearly impossible for me to be paired with someone that sets the bar as high as me or drives as hard as me to get there.
If there's anything I've learned in DBing and being out in the dating world, it's this:
It is a matter how how much baggage you're willing to tolerate in another partner. We all have baggage in some form. Some are messier than others. Not only baggage that we have to look out for, but also being 100% responsible for any potential red flags that crop up. If you overlook them or push them aside, then it's on you.
In some ways, I've cut others some slack because we are ALL trying our best in this crazy world. This is not to say that I am willingly ignoring any potential red flags that will send me running for the hills.
Hi Wonka,
what would you consider red flags as opposed to just baggage? How do these present in dating/early stages of a R?
it would be nearly impossible for me to be paired with someone that sets the bar as high as me or drives as hard as me to get there.
and my guess is it would be nearly impossible for the two of you to remain paired! I suspect there would be so much friction, you'd be lighting fires where you walked
Funny, I meant it would be impossible for me to find someone anything like me. But now that I see the double meaning I think that's true as well. Shoot, if I DID have a partner like me we'd either cure aids or have simultaneous heart attacks on our 2 week anniversary...;)
Hi Wonka,
what would you consider red flags as opposed to just baggage? How do these present in dating/early stages of a R?
Well you certainly dont want to trade in one WAS for another.
I think being divorced first is a requirement.
I have seen some train wrecks when two broken people started dating.
You post to many on this board,
that should give you some insight I think.
hi Cadet, sorry I dont understand your last comment
You post to many on this board,
that should give you some insight I think.
-Py
PS. i am not considering dating. I have only just today (tentatively/cautiously) considered that I may enjoy being single!
PS. i am not considering dating. I have only just today (tentatively/cautiously) considered that I may enjoy being single!
OOPS
I thought you were Zues since I was on his thread.
I think being single first is a great idea.
I think having a period of time to heal and recover from our wounds let us see things more clearly.
First we DETACH from our relationship then we heal and learn what mistakes we dont want to make again.
Zues, I have caught up with what you have written.
It's fantastic to see how far you have come, truly inspirational for me. I can not thank you enough for helping me to 'see' my own negative behaviours through your old posts about what you did in your M.
The posts you made about the deck of cards resonates with me whenever I am dealing with a difficult person. I believe I have become more compassionate and understanding because I am less inclined to deal them low cards, my behaviour and reactions is a lot more 'tempered' :-)
I am grappling with a lot of what you are saying but most of my thoughts usually veer towards H. I think only he will really know what a fantastic W I would be in a new M/ R as he knew me from before and can see the person I have become.
I am still struggling to detach, so no where near where you are but I do have similar thoughts that cross my mind.
Pyrite,
Hi Wonka,
what would you consider red flags as opposed to just baggage? How do these present in dating/early stages of a R?
Baggage, to me, is a person's character, habits, patterns and idiosyncrasies. Red flags, on the other hand, are issues and patterns that can have a detrimental effect on the R.
Red flags could be drugs, alcohol, domestic violence, or a mean streak. Some could be as simple as the person having a very negative vibe.
Baggage is something that one has to evaluate and determine if it's something you can live with and tolerate. Perhaps this person has a horrendous childhood that included abuse that colors this person's worldview. This is just an example I am using here.
I agree with Cadet that the focus needs to be on healing YOURSELF first before tipping your toe in the dating pool. In fact, I pretty forced myself to stay single and not consider dating for almost 4 years. The main reason behind this decision to hold off on dating was because the reasons to date were all wrong: I was lonely. I was needy. I was feeling less than whole.
You want to date from a position of being whole and feel that you have a lot to offer rather than seeking out a person to fill the emptiness inside you.
Bottom line, you MUST be emotionally healthy first before dating again. Otherwise, you're just gonna repeat some old patterns and everyone gets hurt.
I have actually witnessed rebound relationships and they NEVER work out. I had one rebound relationship myself and yep...that didn't work out for the obvious reasons: I had issues and she had issues.
In fact, I am seeing one rebound relationship unfold in my social circle and I can foresee that they will EVENTUALLY break up at some point. Why is that? Well, they got together when this girl had just broken off with her GF a month prior. Gee whiz, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that one out.
thanks for the reply Wonka.
You want to date from a position of being whole and feel that you have a lot to offer rather than seeking out a person to fill the emptiness inside you.
great advice.
Zeus,
you asked, and I answered!
Okay now, so let me see if we can parse this up and dig out something meaty....
or not...(just remember, you asked for it. )
[quote=Zues126]Thanks Smothy.
I've been posting everywhere but here. Gans thread, JB's, yours, Py's, etc.
One thing I just mentioned has to do with my feelings of self worth. I feel my personal self worth is very good right now, but what I feel I am worth to a woman is very low.
kinda confusing to me. I'm going to bet that these^^ are not both true, but that you THINK you are a good guy but you FEEL that you may not be. OR you are hoping you are a good guy but you fear you are not...
("oh that clears it up 25")Like if you loved a certain movie that you'd tried to share with several different friends and everyone else hated it, and it got horrible reviews. You still like the movie, but you learn that no one else really does.
Any chance you're really just ^^discussing your porn interest here?
There was an exchange where Lisa B said "it would help if he was hot and good at sex" and Jelly B agreed.
What's strange is my immediate reaction was "hmmm, that rules me out, I'm not attractive and would probably be a disappointment for them in bed".
Hey here's a point about porn I want to make.
AND yes I think it's an issue you are sort of dancing around...not sure why, but maybe you feel judged about it. I'm not judging you, though the porn I've seen is usually really degrading to women or violent, which is just scary to me.
Anyhow, The few times I've watched porn, unless it had a lot of men in it too (rare)
I tended to feel insecure or threatened by the women's perfect bodies and flat stomachs (women who clearly never bore children)...and wondered if h was secretly thinking of them; while with me,
oh, and I would shake my head at how those women have orgasms every 30 seconds from minimal contact (or effort of the male). I just wanted to throw that in the pot as to why a lot of women feel this way. And btw, I shared this reaction with some female friends and each one identified with it and more...
This^^ is in response to "mainstream" porn and not the kind with violence or especially humiliating portrayals of women. That stuff just freaks us out.
What's strange is that unlike my movie example, I don't know that I've gotten a ton of negative feedback. It's more like I've been afraid to share that movie with anyone else because I'm afraid of a negative reaction. And as for the last part, I have no reason to think I'm unattractive, or to think I couldn't make a woman very happy. The frustrating part is I think in my head that I would be an absolutely fantastic partner because I am sensitive, loving, loyal, smart, funny, open, honest, gifted, and accepting...
however somehow in my heart I feel like I have some flaw that once women see who I really am they will cut bait.
The "Imposter Syndrome" affects many of us, especially with certain family dynamics. I can't recall what your dad does for a living or if you two were close. What was the deal with that? And your mom? Siblings?
And did you ever research that personal growth workshop "Essential Experience" in Philadelphia, I mentioned? Some other DBers have gone and each one got a lot out of it. I still highly recommend it as the best fastest way to jump start growth or rekindle it or guide someone.
I've been back to be a "team" member (to help other new participants), and each time, I gain something new.
It's profound and life altering. What else can I say? Moving on...
To be fair, because of my fears and introverted nature I have only been with two women (both of whom pursued me initially, then cheated and broke it off at the end), but I have
always been repulsed with the idea of playing the field or sewing my oats. I really just want one woman in my life.
No judgement meant by this, but how does your porn interest square with^^ this?
Can you see why a partner might doubt it? Might question your fidelity? So I've basically had minimal contact with other woman except for the two relationships I had, I'm not out seeking or achieving a lot of affirmation from women. Neither had any negative feedback about my looks or performance.
What do you NEED from a partner? And what do you dream of having? The two may not be identical.
However, I can see that if I am convinced of my low worth (and need constant reassurance that I'm good enough)
that can be picked up on and devalue me to women, or to my partner, who could then actually start to agree with my negative self assessment. Yes absolutely, and one can start to feel like a loser to be with someone so unworthy, and a cycle begins that is not healthy. Also it's not our job to prop up our spouse's self worth.
That isn't partnership or a marriage; it's one person using the other as an emotional crutch b/c they are not able to carry themselves.
I'm not really sure how to change that, or even if I really need to.
You need to be authentically happy with who you are as a man AND as a potential partner. That means that you'll take in their feedback for when you drop the ball or don't match a need of hers with something from you,
WITHOUT this making you into a monster
(i.e. you have to be able to forgive yourself for imperfection, and not blame or resent her for the feedback, then tweak the needed change and move forward...)
If it
requires me to go on lots of dates and hook up with a number of women I am not really interested.
Uh, Zues, how'd that "option" present itself as a way for you to master feelings of inner worth & self confidence? I mean, I almost think you're kidding but then...not so sure I understand that would 'work' as I am in sales, and I know how confidence builds as you 'close more deals'. But I don't want to close a lot of deals.
This^^^ is not a good relatable example to me. You are talking about profoundly intimate inner details about yourself that require brave hard work, and insights so personal that most stay far from ever having them.
No, sales pitches and "marketing tactics" are not applicable, imo. Personally I would rather just try online dating, wait until I find someone that would rather share openly and honestly who they are and what they want, as well as their beliefs. And then be prepared to do a better job so that my insecurities don't translate into destructive behavior. What I'd need is a woman that can understand my battle and not FIX me,
but simply be my partner and support me as I continue to do great things in my life for the both of us.
look at this^^^ sentence and tell me if you see anything of interest here. Anything strike you about it? Such as?This is where I am on May 3. So yes, I am personally doing quite well. Thanks for the kind words.
So the question- is there another way to build confidence in your value to a member of the opposite sex without trying to become a playboy? If not, is there something wrong with the path I would then choose above?
Zues,
if you think the way to build your confidence with the opposite sex is by "dating a lot of them/trying to become a playboy", then you are missing a big piece and imo, doing the opposite of what is needed.
Having a deep, healthy, adult relationship will build your confidence.
but "Dating a lot" means what? Dinner? Talking? And That will make you feel more attractive?
OR do you mean Going to bed, getting praised for your "performance" and then what? Dating others?
(Sorry if I misunderstood but the "performance" comment comes b/c you seem to want to know you are good in bed, and you also seem to think the only way to know that is by bedding a lot more women.
But see, being a "good lover" means you welcome feedback from a woman you trust/love about HER needs and wants, which vary with women.
A guy might be exactly what a woman wants in a lover, but the next woman may feel quite differently. The only surefire thing that makes for a good lover is a man who wants to please his woman and does his best to do so, in a healthy respectful way. That means taking "Not tonight" as a reasonable choice, not as an affront, or something to resent or punish a person for).
If you just move on dating someone else and keep Moving on so you can "date more", Won't you just feel like a cad?
Sorry but I'm not really clear on what your belief is here or what the goal would be.
If it is to build your confidence, that sounds 1) as if you are using women to overcome your insecurities again- which means you'd just be doing more of the same, which is the problem you are supposedly remedying; AND
2) sounds like an ineffective plan anyhow.
Tell me how you would feel better about yourself if you date "a lot of women" and yet can't manage an actual adult relationship with any of them?
How would this^^ lead you to being a better partner in a healthy adult relationship?
Yikes, I'm confused.
BOOM! this will keep you busy Z.
This is the first thing that stands out to me, as in for me as well
However, I can see that if I am convinced of my low worth (and need constant reassurance that I'm good enough) that can be picked up on and devalue me to women, or to my partner, who could then actually start to agree with my negative self assessment.
Yes absolutely, and one can start to feel like a loser to be with someone so unworthy, and a cycle begins that is not healthy. Also it's not our job to prop up our spouse's self worth.
That isn't partnership or a marriage; it's one person using the other as an emotional crutch b/c they are not able to carry themselves.
I'm not really sure how to change that, or even if I really need to.
You need to be authentically happy with who you are as a man AND as a potential partner. That means that you'll take in their feedback for when you drop the ball or don't match a need of hers with something from you,
WITHOUT this making you into a monster
(i.e. you have to be able to forgive yourself for imperfection, and not blame or resent her for the feedback, then tweak the needed change and move forward...)
guilty AND failed on my account. The 1st part was true just b/c of my low self-esteem and then further battered because of resentment I felt in the 2nd (not moving forward). In the beginning I did make the change, but then resented that SHE didn't make any of the changes I asked for. After a while I just went straight to the resentment.
Hello Zues,
First, thanks for checking in on me so often. I haven't been able to be here much the last few days. I've been busy GAL'ing.
Wow . . . Wonka and 25 posted in your thread on the same day. Woo Hoo! Two of my favorites. A lot of great advice and thought-provoking comments.
To quote Pyrite, "BOOM! this will keep you busy Z."
Please take a little time to digest all this and post an update when you can. I can't think of anything to add now.
Chin up, Z!
Bob
Thank you for the reply 25. You brought up a lot of good points and good questions. I will also say there were times I felt very misunderstood. Which is possibly because this is online communication, but also possibly because you are right, it wasn't all easy to read. But that's ok. I appreciate your time with me 25. I’m not sure I have great answers for all of them, but I will share where I’m at in the journey.
Hey here's a point about porn I want to make.
AND yes I think it's an issue you are sort of dancing around...not sure why, but maybe you feel judged about it. I'm not judging you, though the porn I've seen is usually really degrading to women or violent, which is just scary to me.
Anyhow, The few times I've watched porn, unless it had a lot of men in it too (rare)
I tended to feel insecure or threatened by the women's perfect bodies and flat stomachs (women who clearly never bore children)...and wondered if h was secretly thinking of them; while with me,
oh, and I would shake my head at how those women have orgasms every 30 seconds from minimal contact (or effort of the male). I just wanted to throw that in the pot as to why a lot of women feel this way. And btw, I shared this reaction with some female friends and each one identified with it and more...
This^^ is in response to "mainstream" porn and not the kind with violence or especially humiliating portrayals of women. That stuff just freaks us out.
...
No judgement meant by this, but how does your porn interest square with^^ this?
Can you see why a partner might doubt it? Might question your fidelity?
Yes, I'm attracted to other women, and to porn. I haven’t watched it in months, and I am trying to eliminate it from my life. That doesn’t mean it didn’t give me a rush. It made me feel very understood, because I felt that at least SOMEONE understood the desire in my heart, and knew what revved my engine. So it met the needs of feeling understood and approved of (as opposed to rejected).
I understand women react negatively to it. Many men obviously react strongly to it or it wouldn’t be the biggest industry in the world. When I say that’s not what I want, I’m not saying I don’t desire it…I’m saying that’s not what I want. When I say I don’t want to sew my wild oats, I’m not saying I don’t have urges of desire hundreds of times a day, and I don’t have lustful thoughts every time I see a woman. What I’m saying is I don’t want to act on that.
If a woman chooses to think there’s something wrong with me for my desires then I’m not right for her. I’m not going to live my life hiding what’s in my heart.
What I want is a woman that can understand that type of desire and instead of condemning me because of the lustful thoughts I have, appreciates that I choose not to act on them and will turn only to her for fulfillment. In return I would hope that she is willing to work with me to be adventurous and openminded yet realistic and healthy.
Now, this may change as time goes on without porn in my life. I’m not sure if my desires will change, lessen, etc, as I detox further. Which is why I’m a long way from being ready for date (legal D or not). I’m not sure where I’ll be in six months and a year.
And did you ever research that personal growth workshop "Essential Experience" in Philadelphia, I mentioned? Some other DBers have gone and each one got a lot out of it. I still highly recommend it as the best fastest way to jump start growth or rekindle it or guide someone.
I've been back to be a "team" member (to help other new participants), and each time, I gain something new.
It's profound and life altering. What else can I say? Moving on...
I haven’t gone yet. It is on my things I’d like to do. I’m not sure when. I’d like to get my job down before taking time off. But I feel very compelled to do this for a refreshing look at my life.
What do you NEED from a partner? And what do you dream of having? The two may not be identical.
I don't know anymore. I'd like a woman that is willing to stay with me and not get a D when things are hard. I'd like a woman that can do what I said above, be ok with who I am without needing to change me into something I'm not. But need? I'm finding I don't need anything. If I can be ok, right here, right now...well, I don't know that I'll ever need someone else like I did a year ago.
Yes absolutely, and one can start to feel like a loser to be with someone so unworthy, and a cycle begins that is not healthy. Also it's not our job to prop up our spouse's self worth.
That isn't partnership or a marriage; it's one person using the other as an emotional crutch b/c they are not able to carry themselves.
You need to be authentically happy with who you are as a man AND as a potential partner. That means that you'll take in their feedback for when you drop the ball or don't match a need of hers with something from you,
WITHOUT this making you into a monster
(i.e. you have to be able to forgive yourself for imperfection, and not blame or resent her for the feedback, then tweak the needed change and move forward...)
I love this. Agreed. I easily default to all or nothing thinking. It put too much pressure on my W. How can she give me feedback on how she's doing if I go straight to "you hate me, I'm terrible!"?
If it requires me to go on lots of dates and hook up with a number of women I am not really interested.
Uh, Zues, how'd that "option" present itself as a way for you to master feelings of inner worth & self confidence? I mean, I almost think you're kidding but then...not so sure
I understand that would 'work' as I am in sales, and I know how confidence builds as you 'close more deals'. But I don't want to close a lot of deals.
This^^^ is not a good relatable example to me. You are talking about profoundly intimate inner details about yourself that require brave hard work, and insights so personal that most stay far from ever having them.
No, sales pitches and "marketing tactics" are not applicable, imo.
Personally I would rather just try online dating, wait until I find someone that would rather share openly and honestly who they are and what they want, as well as their beliefs. And then be prepared to do a better job so that my insecurities don't translate into destructive behavior. What I'd need is a woman that can understand my battle and not FIX me, but simply be my partner and support me as I continue to do great things in my life for the both of us.
look at this^^^ sentence and tell me if you see anything of interest here. Anything strike you about it? Such as?
This is where I am on May 3. So yes, I am personally doing quite well. Thanks for the kind words.
So the question- is there another way to build confidence in your value to a member of the opposite sex without trying to become a playboy? If not, is there something wrong with the path I would then choose above?
Zues,
if you think the way to build your confidence with the opposite sex is by "dating a lot of them/trying to become a playboy", then you are missing a big piece and imo, doing the opposite of what is needed.
Having a deep, healthy, adult relationship will build your confidence.
but "Dating a lot" means what? Dinner? Talking? And That will make you feel more attractive?
OR do you mean Going to bed, getting praised for your "performance" and then what? Dating others?
(Sorry if I misunderstood but the "performance" comment comes b/c you seem to want to know you are good in bed, and you also seem to think the only way to know that is by bedding a lot more women.
But see, being a "good lover" means you welcome feedback from a woman you trust/love about HER needs and wants, which vary with women.
A guy might be exactly what a woman wants in a lover, but the next woman may feel quite differently. The only surefire thing that makes for a good lover is a man who wants to please his woman and does his best to do so, in a healthy respectful way. That means taking "Not tonight" as a reasonable choice, not as an affront, or something to resent or punish a person for).
If you just move on dating someone else and keep Moving on so you can "date more", Won't you just feel like a cad?
Sorry but I'm not really clear on what your belief is here or what the goal would be.
If it is to build your confidence, that sounds 1) as if you are using women to overcome your insecurities again- which means you'd just be doing more of the same, which is the problem you are supposedly remedying; AND
2) sounds like an ineffective plan anyhow.
Tell me how you would feel better about yourself if you date "a lot of women" and yet can't manage an actual adult relationship with any of them?
How would this^^ lead you to being a better partner in a healthy adult relationship?
Yikes, I'm confused.
I think there was a misunderstanding. I was replying to those suggesting that was a good plan, stating I DIDN’T want to do that. I thought I was pretty clear. I agree with you that healthy, adult relationships are the best way to gain confidence. It just seems a lot of guys talk about building confidence by getting with a lot of women and I was talking about how that wouldn't work for me. I don't want to be told I'm good in bed by anyone except for my next (and hopefully last) woman.
I also wasn’t sure what you meant by asking me what stood out about that line. Was it saying "supporting me"? When I say “support me” I don’t mean make me feel ok about myself, or carry me. I mean be “supportive”. To me this means having my back, rooting me on, knowing my goals and being a cheerleader as I fight my dragons in life. My W wasn’t supportive in this way, it is just something I hoped for. For example, if I’m not using porn I’d prefer to have a woman empathizing with how difficult it can be to quit, rather than criticizing me that I have wrestled this issue at all. That’s what I mean by supportive. I don’t know what’s wrong with that.
25, I didn't go into my parents and my relationship with them. And I have much more to think about here. Porn isn't a big deal to me in the sense I don't want a woman that watches it, or even is on board with me watching it as I am hoping this is gone from my life. I just want to be ok for being who I am. I don't know who that will be down the road. I think I'm trying to figure out what is years of habit versus my natural self. But I'll keep going, and I have much more time ahead. Thank you for the time it took to reply. I'll post more once I've had a chance to revisit this another time.
Hey Zues,
I'm so happy that you opened up to us! One step at a time.
Isn't 25 amazing????
Bob
I think there was a misunderstanding. I was replying to those suggesting that was a good plan, stating I DIDN’T want to do that. I thought I was pretty clear. I agree with you that healthy, adult relationships are the best way to gain confidence. It just seems a lot of guys talk about building confidence by getting with a lot of women and I was talking about how that wouldn't work for me. I don't want to be told I'm good in bed by anyone except for my next (and hopefully last) woman.
One of "those" Z is referring to might be me. Although I never even thought of multiple women my only point was "ok so you aren't actively looking but I don't know that you should necessarily actively NOT look" if that makes any sense.
I dont know exactly how you feel, I know I don't feel "ready", I was just pointing out that this will probably always be the case. At some point we will have to put into practice what we think we have "learnt" even if it is only to realise that we haven't learnt anything at all. But we might also find that we have learned, and we have been repeating the final year of high school over and over again. How do we know when we are ready to move on to college where indeed we WILL learn a whole lot more.
Zeus,
I would like to piggyback 25's comments here and chime in with my own thoughts. I enjoy how she breaks down things into understandable POV.
So the question- is there another way to build confidence in your value to a member of the opposite sex without trying to become a playboy? If not, is there something wrong with the path I would then choose above?
if you think the way to build your confidence with the opposite sex is by "dating a lot of them/trying to become a playboy", then you are missing a big piece and imo, doing the opposite of what is needed.
Having a deep, healthy, adult relationship will build your confidence.
but "Dating a lot" means what? Dinner? Talking? And That will make you feel more attractive?
OR do you mean Going to bed, getting praised for your "performance" and then what? Dating others?Quote from 25:
Having a deep, healthy, adult relationship will build your confidence. That FIRST important healthy adult relationship is with YOURSELF. Get to know thyself. Fall in love with yourself. Honor your own values and principles.
From that point forward, you will have developed your own inner confidence. Then it will manifest outwardly in how you treat women. Then you will not have to measure it by some "performance" for it will eventually fall off in old age. Then what do you have left??!
I know MANY, MANY heterosexual men who are not into porn having a positive self-worth and self-confidence that have healthy long-term Rs/Ms. They also do not need to be a player to get that self-confidence.
Joel Osteen has only known 1 woman in the carnal sense in his entire life: his own wife, Victoria. Look at him!
I am wondering about men's escape into porn. I cannot help but wonder about their own self-worth when porn consumes their thoughts and actions.
Porn objectifies women. Just a sex thing to play with.
There's no true emotional intelligence involved right there.
Emotional IQ is lacking in men who are deep into porn in my opinion. Their IRL relationships suffer as a result due to their distorted views of women.
Like with all unhealthy addictions, men really need to break off from porn completely as the first step in their journey in acquiring higher emotional IQ.
Hey...to keep things real here. I have viewed porn a few times back when I was in college so I have a good sense of what is actually played out on the
celluloid screen.
Yup, the escape plan.
My STBX wanted to be a stay at home mom. Her mom was a SAHM that raised the kids, then divorced her dad when they were all in school. X-MIL is now single and still very resentful towards her ex. That was STBX's dream as well. She wanted three children and to be able to raise them. The sex stopped after our third child, and now that the youngest is nearing kindergarden age the bomb got dropped. In many ways I don't think she ever expected a life long partnership with me, but wanted my sperm and support while she raised the kids. Now she's ready to cut bait. And her only regret was "she wished she could've made it until the youngest was in school".
Zues this concerns me a great deal. There seem to be so many thinking issues and muddles. From mind reading, destructive (stinking) thinking, past rewriting, and black and white views.
Really!
Considering yourself a sperm donor. These are your children as much as hers! Maybe WW was just an egg donor. Please stop this loop, I know you know better.
I know if you asked her she would say she wanted to make her M work, and that it was a goal of hers. But I really do think that raising the children was a NEED of hers, M was a want, and that's why she stopped investing in the M and was a overachieving mom.
A good M is the best way to bring up children and this takes two parents. Being a good dad is enough of itself.
I said this once long ago and was told I was rewriting history, diagnosing my ex, making excuses when the issue was my mistreatment of her. Truly I'm not interested in doing that. I know our history, I know my actions, and I know what went through her head is irrelevant to what I need to do now.
Whoever said that was wise. I do hope you listened? Well here is your second chance, and maybe there will be a third one........
I just know that I understand the feeling of being played a fool when you thought you were working on something together and the other person had been checked out a long time.
It isn't foolish if you do this for you. Stand for you and your M, it's very brave.
I am so very puzzled by this post Zues, it sounds early Zues before 2x4 action.
V
ups and downs Zeus?
I too am puzzled ^^^. I will have to look on Sunny's thread now to see the context it was in. I suspect just empathising? I do this as well and am guilty of perhaps turning it into venting of *repressed* anger.
*repressed* because it isn't that easily defined. sometimes it is actively repressed. sometimes I can live with it and sometimes it comes to the surface.
I dont know the context, but the content could be my rant as well. Same neurotic mother, M not her priority, I nose-dived into insane despair and treated her poorly as punishment.
We are where we are. I think it is necessary at certain junctures to cut yourself off from DBing. I mean like in this case, or my analogous point on this path. I have an understanding of what happened, how it happened, and why. Because I have been trying hard to NOT burn-bridges or medicate or move forward by rewriting history etc, I am (usually) in a position (that I know you are too Zeus) that I dont BLAME her.
This being the case, I think when the *repressed* anger surfaces about our horrible situation(s) we need only to get back to here. Re-settle with this alone before adding further complications into it like "what I need to work on that lead to my part" in the M failure etc.
Like rewinding to an earlier solid point. Sit here until you feel it is safe to move forwards again.
I'm sure you can deal with this on your own Z. Writing it down for my own benefit as well. I have been a bit flat since my HIGH the other day. It goes in circles. Most likely reality is that for at least the next few years my family will be strewn across the city, kids will be volley balls etc. This has been the case since day 1 (or soon after anyway). I denied it, I could;t accept it, I was angry about it. Periodically I conquer some aspect along this path and I feel great. But then it sinks in that this ^^ is till true. Then follows the step backwards.
Wonka- I agree with your remarks. My question that has been quoted by you and 25 was more of a challenge to a lot of the advice I've seen from other men suggesting to get out and date, go out with lots of women, etc, as a way of gaining confidence about the validity of your needs and your desirability. You may remember the "man cave" thread for example. And a few other posters are very pro-"date lots of women". My only post on the man cave was to state I wasn't interested in learning how to attract women by turning myself into some "alpha male", because I'm not going to put on an act, nor would I really want to be with a woman who was attracted to an act like that. That said, I like the responses, it affirms what I believed in my heart was true for me.
I think that all addictions diminish emotional IQ, they are a means of escape and avoidance, and of medicating moods. And from what I've read about porn, it takes time for the brain to detox, rewire thought patterns, and allow the endorphin centers to readjust. I'm only a few months in of total abstainance (for the second time) so I haven't come far enough to know how differently my mind will work in, say, six more months. So I'm talking about how I feel NOW, with faith that I will continue to evolve. Some desires and needs will remain, but they may be more managable and in a different form than what I recognize in myself today. Certainly they have already changed in the last year so I am curious what the future holds. I'm not impatient, I have time. I just find it curious to pay attention to my thought patterns during this time period.
Vanilla- My post about STBX was meant to be focused on the FEELING of being played. You're correct, I don't know what went on in her mind, it's not relevant and not something I dwell on. I shouldn't have writted "she wanted this" or "she never wanted that". What I intended to communicate was the feeling of foolishishness I experienced after BD for being so committed to the M. But you are right- I don't latch on to these feelings because I AM proud of how I stood by my M (although I'm not proud of my behavior that lead to such a bad one). It was meant to empathize with Sunny who was feeling foolish for expecting her H to treat her with common courtesy during her separation. THEN AGAIN- though that's what I meant, and that's why I meant it...that's NOT what I wrote, so it is a good reality check on how easy it is to slip from "I" statements to finger pointing.
Py and all- I'm actually doing really well in terms of how I'm feeling about myself, and my life. It DEFINITELY helps to talk about it. I appreciate all of you giving me your feedback. I raised my hand and asked because I want to keep moving the right direction.
I think I've been learning to feel my feelings and manage them better than ever before. I enjoy my days, am appreciative of what I have, am closer with my children than ever, and am really just feeling good. This is a pretty new experience for me. I'm definitely more focused on me, taking care of myself, and taking care of my children, and I've let go of my STBX more than I thought possible. I feel the dust is really settling, and I'm no longer uncomfortable having conversations with her (not that that's being tested- but even brief exchanges when handing off the kids have gotten easy).
What I've been doing the last few weeks is really exploring the topics of sex in relationships, how men recover from long porn use, etc. That's why I've been bringing these topics up, but I've also been reading offline. I'm pretty sure I'm going to do the Essential Experience thing, not sure when I can make it, but maybe later this summer. But these boards are special, and the vets on here are practially professionals in the field, so no matter what else I do I will try to keep posting on my thread regularly!
Py and all- I'm actually doing really well in terms of how I'm feeling about myself, and my life. It DEFINITELY helps to talk about it. I appreciate all of you giving me your feedback. I raised my hand and asked because I want to keep moving the right direction.
glad to hear it
I'm off on a new thread. A new period in my journey as well.
What I've been doing the last few weeks is really exploring the topics of sex in relationships, how men recover from long porn use, etc.
This will be something I will have to grapple with later. I have been going to look at the "sex starved M" but this would be stupid, ATM I am still dealing with not having a M. My M and R was seriously sex-starved. In retrospect I am surprised things held together, but then this just makes me sad. The reason it did was that we were such good friends (earlier on).
I know how irrelevant this is but I just have to get it off my chest. I think about how she is dealing with intimacy now with OM. She has made progress in this respect, I doubt she has changed her spots, maybe she has and I just missed out
. Maybe it was just me, and as I have said before that the M was a mistake in the first place because this was always the case, apart from her leaving a few years in because she felt I was like her "brother".
You know, this seems fairly obvious now that I'm typing it but it's the first time I've thought of it in these words before. I think porn impacts self worth a lot because is a more shame filled addiction, and one reason why is the reaction it gets. I think that's because many women have been hurt directly by porn, feeling betrayed, having their confidence undermined, and in many other ways. As a result there is can generate much more powerful reactions than, say, a gambling addiction. I've seen many people on these forums talking about quitting alcohol, for example, with little contraversy. I don't bring that up to defend porn or say it's being singled out. Only to point out that it's very unpopular.
I can see why I wouldn't be feeling confident about my self worth. As I said, I'm still sorting out what my natural desires are versus my conditioned desires. And what I've learned is that those that have been influenced by porn are very hurtful to women and provoke quite a backlash. So suppose I have desire A, desire B, and desire C. I share desire A and a woman might reciprocate and we get close, understand each other, and fulfill each other. I share desire B, same thing. Then I share desire C and am cast away and told I have problems, there is something wrong with me. So you'd go from being loved to being condemned.
So I can see why I'd be not very confident. It creates a lot of problems. I can't be myself or I won't be loved, I have to act like someone else. I feel ashamed of my desiress because I've been told they're wrong. I feel guilty because other people tell me they've been wounded, feel insecure, betrayed, or hurt because of desires I've expressed. What a confusing spot to be, where you don't know what's ok and what's not, where you feel judged for what you're attracted to.
This feeds the cycle of porn. Because porn doesn't reject or judge, in fact it's very existance seems to offer approval and understanding because it wouldn't be there if it didn't have a vast audience. And then it stimulates and satisfies in many ways as well. So it actually meets emotional needs and not just pleasure censors.
My goal is to get to the point where I have detoxed long enough to get to where I know what MY real needs and desires are, and where I have learned enough on the topic to rewire some thought patterns. At that point I think I can be more confident knowing that I'm me at my best self. From there if a woman finds me repulsive, well, we're not a good fit.
So cliff notes, it gives me confidence that I will become more confident because I realize a lot of the insecurity has come from the reactions that I've gotten for outlooks that might not be naturally mine. Obviously this is just journaling here and trying to work through things.
This makes sense. It doesn't all apply to me though. My W was oblivious to any porn i watched and it didn't impact our sex life. It was really only ever a substitute for me as our sex life was virtually non-existent. (probably about 100 times in 12 years!!!)
So maybe I (also) have a problem with how am I going to deal with a normal sex life? I dont know, but it is so far away from me that I honestly dont think about it.
ergggggh - it just burns me up that the WAWs don't have to deal with any of this. Even the sex life thing, she is already on that horse. Sure she "might" have to deal with it sooner or later, but she "might not" either. Not that it matters, and not that it makes it any less annoying. And again, "I" have to regroup and calm myself, blah blah, and the road continues - i'm just tired. Time to beach it for me.
I thought maybe I would give you this blog post from MWD about SSM's
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1925568#Post1925568I would also refer you to #6
From Michele's blog:
My last post contained 11 tips to help boost sexual desire. If you are someone whose sexual desire needs no boosting, that doesn't mean that you get to sit back and wait for your spouse to change. In fact, you are equally responsible for changing your attitude and how you handle this issue in your marriage. This post will offer you 9 tips to approach your spouse in ways that will increase the likelihood that she or he will want to be close to you. Ready? Here goes.
1. Don't take it personally
Differences in sexual desire among couples are very, very common. Although it is hard to have your advances rejected repeatedly without taking it personally, you need to remind yourself that you spouse's lack of interest in sex just may not be about you, your attractiveness, or your qualities as a human being. It may simply be a matter of a hormone deficiency, other physiological problems, or feelings s/he has about himself/herself. Although you undoubtedly still want things to change, try to develop a little empathy for your spouse. Chances are, given the choice, s/he would prefer to feel turned on easily. It's not exactly a picnic to feel disinterested in something your spouse thrives on! S/he probably feels inadequate and questions his/her own sexuality. I know this situation hurts you, but don't underestimate how painful this is for your spouse either. Even if s/he acts defensively, s/he probably spends lots of time wondering why things aren't easier between you. Try to be more understanding.
2. Break free from the Catch-22
If you are a man whose wife is less interested in sex than you, and my description of the gender differences (she wants you to be more communicative and attentive before she is interested in sex) rang true for you, it's time to start paying attention to your friendship with your wife. Many women are wired this way. They can't get turned on unless they feel close to you.
This means that you need to start doing the things that are important to her, like talking about personal issues, spending time together, doing things as a couple, pitching in more at home, being more available to her, and asking her about her day. These are the kinds of things that soften women's hearts. And women adore it when men do small things for them. Bring her a cup of coffee in the morning. Leave her a note telling her you love her. Call her from work just to tell her that you are thinking of her. Bring home a single rose. Make her feel special. Be romantic. Women love it when men show their affection through random acts of kindness. They are much more likely to want to be close to you sexually when you do.
If you're upset with your wife because she's been cold and rejecting, the last thing you feel like doing is being kind and thoughtful. All I can say is that if you really want to improve your sex life and your wife needs to feel close to you emotionally as a prerequisite, doing the things that bring you closer to her is the only way you are going to get there. You can hold out because you're angry, or you can break free from the Catch-22 and be loving. Experiment by being a friend and watch what happens. Friendship is a great aphrodisiac for most women!
If you are a woman and the more highly sexed partner, the same theory applies. So many men have told me that their wives are "bitchy" and naggy and it really turns them off. Men become passive-aggressive, agreeing to your demands but turning off to you emotionally and sexually. Why not approach things differently? Even though you might feel hurt or rejected or unsexy because your spouse has been so apathetic, don't be critical. Be kind. Be complimentary. Catch your husband in the act of doing something right and tell him about it.
Look at your own behavior. Figure out what you might be doing that could make your spouse respond defensively. Ask yourself, "What has my husband been complaining about recently in regards to my behavior?" and start changing. Become more of the person he wants you to be and he might become more of the person you want him to be.
3. Do something different
Without knowing you, I can say with some certainty that your "more of the same" behavior has been to pursue your spouse for sex. And since this has become such a heated, ongoing issue between the two of you, you've gotten into roles with each other. You pursue him or her for sex, and s/he declines your offer. The more you pursue, the more your spouse feels pressured and angry and pulls away. So, it's time for you to try a new approach.
Back off for a while - No matter how attracted you might be to your spouse or how ready you might be to make love, for a certain period of time you should commit to not approaching him or her. Do not initiate sex for a while and see what happens. Don't talk about your plan. Don't threaten. Just back off and wait. Sometimes the lower-sexed person simply needs more time to allow his/her batteries to recharge. When the tug of war has ended, s/he might feel more amorous. It's really worth a shot.
I know that backing off isn't easy, especially if you're feeling turned on. But if you haven't tried back off yet, at least for several weeks at a time, you need to put this on your short list of things to try.
Stop talking about sex and focus on yourself for a change - You have been so focused on your relationship (at least the sexual part of it) that you have probably put your other needs aside. Rather than spend time arguing about what is or isn't happening in your marriage, use the time to focus on yourself and find things to do that fulfill you. Go out with friends. Start a new hobby. Join a health club. Go to church. Once s/he sees you focusing on yourself rather than your sex life, s/he might want to be more involved in your life...in every way.
Do a 180 - Wouldn't it just blow your spouse' mind if you were to tell him/her that you have been doing some reading and that you now have a better understanding about his/her feelings about sex and that you're sorry about all the fighting? Think about it. Your spouse has been making you feel like a sex maniac and you've been making him/her feel like a celibate.
You're convinced that you're right and s/he's convinced that s/he's right. And where has all of that gotten you? Right here, right? So, while I can't guarantee that telling your spouse that you understand his/her feelings better will make him/her want to jump your bones, I can tell you that making your spouse "wrong" won't. Showing compassion and understanding might be the turn on s/he's been waiting for! Who knows?
4. Focus on what works
Have there been times in your marriage when your sex life was more passionate? Yes, I know, in the very beginning. Newness makes hormones run amuck. That is not the case any longer. So examine your marriage beyond the very beginning. Ask yourself, "What was different about the times when my spouse was more interested in sex?" See if any of the conditions are reproducible. Then do that.
5. Touch affectionately without thinking sex is imminent
Women often complain that their husbands never touch them unless they want sex. This turns them off. If, as the man, you are the more highly sexed partner, it will serve you well to remember this about your wife. She might want you to hug her, cuddle, hold hands, sit next to each other on the couch, or have you kiss her in ways that are affectionate but not sexual. Lots of women say that men are incapable of hugging without their hands sliding slowly down their butts. Since many women have a strong need for affection without sexual overtones, they get annoyed when each and every touch becomes a means of foreplay.
If this sounds familiar to you, then you might try being affectionate and stop there. Your wife will appreciate it and you. She might even wonder what in the world is going on. And that's exactly what you want to do; break out of old unproductive patterns. When you start doing the things that touch her soul, she will be more inclined to do the things that touch your body.
6. Masturbate
Since your sex drives are so disparate, it's unreasonable for you to expect your spouse to take care of each and every desire. You need to take responsibility for satisfying your own needs from time to time. In all likelihood, you are already doing this and you don't need me to tell you to do it. However, you've probably been resentful about it. That's not good and it's also not fair. Although your spouse needs to do a better job in meeting you halfway, there will still be times when you are hot to trot and s/he isn't. That's normal and you need to accept it. As long as your spouse is making more of an effort to understand and care for your needs, you need to accept it. As long as your spouse is making more of an effort to understand and care for your needs, you need to accept your differences and take care of yourself occasionally without feeling resentment.
7. Accept a gift of love
Sometimes, as things improve and your spouse is trying to be more caring about your needs, s/he might decide to become intimate with you even though sex might not be a burning desire. Rather than feeling insulted or put off, you should accept this as a gift of love. In good relationships, people do things for their spouses all the time that may not be exactly what they feel like doing at the moment. That's okay. In fact, that's more than okay. That's great. That's real giving. Real giving is when you give to your partner what your partner wants and needs whether or not you understand it, like it , or agree with it. Allow your spouse to show his/her love by being sexual even if it wasn't his/her favorite thing to do at the moment. Accept the gift and appreciate it. Good marriages are build on this kind of caring.
8. Respect your spouse's sexual prerequisites
Here's another really good suggestion from Dr. Pat Love. When a spouse with low sexual desire tells his/her spouse about the conditions that need to be in place in order for him/her to engage in or enjoy sex, the higher-sexed spouse often does not understand or accept the requests at face value. For example, if a wife tells her husband that she prefers making love at night rather than in the morning, the husband might think she is just making up excuses. (For most men, testosterone peaks between 7 to 8 A.M.; women's testosterone levels peak in the evening.) If a husband tells his wife that he feels more turned-on after they take a shower or when the kids are asleep, she may think he is just putting things off so that sex never happens. But the truth is, these may not just be excuses. Although you may have a hard time believing or understanding this because you are ready to go at the drop of a hat, your spouse may really need things to be a certain way in order to feel relaxed, comfortable, and turned-on. As much as possible, you should try to honor these requests and not discredit your spouse when s/he is confiding in you about these preconditions. Take what your spouse is saying at face value. Create the kind of atmosphere that is most likely to be conducive to your spouse's desiring sex.
9. If all else fails, be brutally honest
I've worked with countless couples where one spouse was so dissatisfied with their sexual relationship that eventually s/he decided to have an affair or leave the marriage. You might be thinking of these alternatives too. Affairs and divorce are lousy solutions Even if an affair satisfies you temporarily, it will only make things more difficult at home. Although an affair or separation sometimes serves as a wake up call to the other spouse, you can't always count on this. Affairs and separations are bad for marriages.
However, as the more highly sexed person, you might be at the end of your rope. You might be fantasizing about someone else or about packing your bags and leaving. Before you decide to have an affair or leave, I implore you to make sure your spouse knows in no uncertain terms the seriousness of the situation. Make certain s/he understands what will happen if nothing changes. Don't threaten in the heat of an argument. Don't say nasty things. Don't blame. Don't criticize. Just tell your spouse calmly (or write a letter) that because of the differences in your sexual appetites, you are so unhappy that you are considering doing something you really don't want to do. Spell out what you've been thinking about. Tell your spouse that this is not a threat, but that rather, you are so desperate, you don't know what else to do. Ask your partner one more time to seek help. Then wait and see what happens.
As I wrote in my last post, each spouse needs to take personal responsibility for making things better in the relationship. When both of you make more of an effort to understand each other's needs and feelings, you will undoubtedly feel closer and more connected emotionally and physically. And at the end of the day, isn't that what healthy marriages are all about?
Thanks Cadet. I WISH this was a problem that I needed to fix right now
IF only I had've read this X years ago
Zues,
I am very glad that you have come to the some realizations like you have on the overuse of porn. it took a long time for me to realize just how damaging to my marriage the use of porn was. My wife new i used it, but she had no idea how much, nor did she care...she was expecting that it was a necessary release for me. it never got to the point where i thought it was affecting my life. It took a 'water works' problem with prostate infection to figure it out.
in retrospect, it affected how i viewed sex. it was always willing, I could chose a fettish or whatever, it was always available and never rejected me. self-esteem, confidence, arousal, seeing sex as an act of love vs. necessity and so many other issues were affected, whether I thought so or not. maybe i am full of $hit, but i can totally see how it diminshed my view of my wife, who wanted 'X' or 'Y' all of the time and didn't want to do ANYTHING to please me. it wasnt that she didn't want to please me, it was just not how she was trying or that i was never honest about how i wanted to be pleased.
once I realized there is a problem, solving it was easy. just stop using it. I know this is difficult to recondition your sexual needs, but i feel so much better about myself that i don't even use porn anymore. Finding an outlet for that energy was key for me to stop. Anytime i wanted to go the internet for a release, i did push ups or pull ups until i was tired. There were other parts for curbing that appetite, but i will not get into that here. i don't even want to get into the side of how it makes women feel, i have read MANY forums, blogs, articles on the subject and i am in no position to comment on that.
Bottom line, overuse of porn DID create an unhealthy sexual desire and conditioning, especially in my sex-starved marriage atmosphere, it only made it worse.
And by the way, i wasnt using porn for hours on end or anything like that. qe are talking about 4-5 times a week, buy for years and years.
Cadet, do you know where the blog for the 11 tips on sexual desire referenced in your link went? I could not find that one.
Hmmmm..........
Porn is porn, desire is desire, sex is sex.
I do not believe we are really discussing anything related to rude bits, nooky or pimples.
Warning guys really controversial views to come!
I think we are discussing addiction which is about power and distraction. Porn addiction, online games, trillomania hoarding, eating medical waste, excessive cosmetic surgery, gambling and EA/PA, these are all behavioural addictions. The route is the same, distraction, obsession and lack of mindfulness and connection.
The object is truly irrelevant. These behavioural addictions are an attempt to fill the soul, a place which needs to be full of the higher power. The answer is a twelve step programme. These are no different from substance addictions, drugs, caffeine, food, alcohol and sugar. The later are easier to change attitude towards but more immediately physiologically destructive.
In the end all of this is about self management, I do not like control as that sounds central heating like. I think when we truly open our hearts to the higher power within us this all truly falls away. It matters only that we want to be the best we can be, irrespective of our indulgences (oh how I desire Liam, chocolate and Rioja, all together in the altogether).
It is less about a match with those who will satisfy us and more about how we can realistically tolerate others who are different.
V
Very well said Vanilla.
Over the last few weeks I've been thinking a lot about how we meet our needs. We all have some human needs. We can meet them in a variety of ways, healthy or unhealthy.
When we meet our needs in unhealthy ways it gets mixed up. On the one hand, we recognize the behavior is unhealthy and destructive. On the other, there is something compelling about it because it is giving us something we need. I mentioned porn went well beyond physical needs (be it release or endorphins), and met emotional needs such as feeling understood and validated. Finally, you have some of the addictive properties you described like needing to escape, or trying to distract from spiritual voids. Like someone eating when we’re actually thirsty, we can try things that don’t even meet those needs but can offer something that helps us medicate instead. So it’s easy to say “porn is bad, stop using it” as a stand-alone position. While that’s fair, it doesn’t address the rest of the issue. That is that there are some real needs that are very valid. Quitting is the first step because you can’t really start healing with the ‘drug’ still in your system, but it’s equally important to find some healthy ways to meet those needs instead. Otherwise it won’t last. That’s what I learned from my first failed attempt.
There are similarities and differences with other addictions like alcohol or narcotics. I agree spirituality plays a large role, letting go of control, having faith, focusing on something beyond yourself. Yet the program that I’ve been following doesn’t recommend a 12 step approach to porn. The reason is that with drugs/alcohol/gambling- those are activities that are almost entirely unnatural and destructive. There is no good that comes out of cocaine for example. But with sexual disorders, eating disorders, etc, it is more difficult because you can’t simply “quit”. If you’re an overeater you can’t just swear off food. And if you use porn you can’t just classify our sexuality as bad. Instead, we have to learn what parts of our sexuality is natural, healthy, and positive, and what is destructive.
So the program I’m in is all about learning to start sorting out the difference. If the needs are healthy and natural, then validate them, and accept them. If they are unnatural and destructive, let them go, but figure out what base needs those behaviors would be meeting, and substitute different activities that might be better instead. Zypher mentioned working out, that is a great example as it is physical activity that changes your state of mind. So if the ‘craving’ was coming from a physical urge this would be a great response. If the craving was coming from a need to be understood, maybe posting on this forum would help. If the need was to feel accepted, then maybe talking to a friend that is supportive would help. And so on. My IC is a big believer in this, as is my DB coach. My IC was very in favor of this approach vs. just focusing on abstinence. My DB coach was the one that had me try to identify my more base needs in a list, then write a second list with alternative activities that could meet those needs.
I feel better this time around. The same way that when we GAL and learn to take care of ourselves it makes detachment easier, porn has had much less hold on me than it did the first go-round when I just abstained. As you can tell I’ve been giving a lot of thought to whether my thoughts and desires are natural or not, because although I’m still adjusting I am also trying to be aware of what’s going on in my head and my heart.
Cadet- thank you for the link and the quote. Very powerful. I think this all ties together, because during my M I was TOO dependent on my W and our SL to meet too many of my needs. It put way too much pressure on my W, and left me feeling empty and depressed. I really think I was very emotionally disconnected and was using sex to meet pretty much all of my needs. Quitting porn was a big step, but even bigger than that has been that I’ve been slowing down, living with my emotions, learning what they are telling me, and finding reasonable ways to take care of them. I feel more “normal” now than I ever have before, and I’m excited because for the first time in my life I feel like I might be able to grow into a healthy specimen.
PS- Start a new thread, I know…it’s coming. Just wanted to wrap this conversation up. We have room for a couple of comments then I’ll kick something off with a fresh slate. Thanks all!
Its all about LINES again isn't it. Life in general is. One man's trash is anothers treasure. One man's healthy need is another's unhealthy addiction. Sorry this is a bit of journalling here, I need to clarify this to get a picture of where I am headed:
I have an addictive personality. Some aspects (drugs,alcohol) are pretty hard to argue were anything other than troublesome, unhealthy addictions. It is true that I still functioned, achieved and got through it, but no doubt I would have coped with my life at that time much better LESS the drugs.
The same personality (disorder) has lead to me being a perfectionist, over-analytical. Even these are extreme descriptions carrying negative connotations but my point is that these qualities almost define how successful you are in my field of work.
This same personality is born arguably from my genetic make up and life experience. This experience was interpreted through a filter that was constructed in my early development. This filter possibly evolved but I dont think my filter/personality changed dramatically from that carved in my early development. It probably isn't unreasonable to describe it like this: personalities in general have to be balanced. So there is a complimentary, opposite to particular aspects. In my case, both sides of the same trait can be seen in for e.g. above.
This perfectionism leaks into my life and Rs, but what killed my M included another personality trait. Starting from the healthy need end - all i needed/wanted was for my partner to make me feel special. The unhealthy part was that I NEEDED acceptance to support low self-esteem, not just wanted this to support a healthy R. My behaviour was to set my W up to check she wanted/needed/loved me.
In this case I have to stop the destructive behaviour (Abstinence). Obviously this follows from my NEEDing her acceptance which I have to modify. I "need" this because of low-self esteem issues which is deeply ingrained.
So the "issue" whether it is porn, drugs, controlling - i think you have to tackle it from both ends, not either/or. In all cases require a tailored fix as well. Alcoholism obviously altering the behaviour is paramount, and then addressing the underlying causes. Where as my case ^^ is probably more the other way around.
Some ideas that I feel able to challenge.
Firstly abstaining isn't recovery. Abstaining is like flying a plane with the destination set to (say) the Middle of the Atlantic. In order to travel to Japan, the pilot holds the plane on course against his auto controls. That is fine until eventually he tires and the plane reverts to flying to the middle of the Atlantic and certain destruction. Recovery is different to abstaining, recovery is about saying this is tough on my own, I accept that this is bigger than me and that I need help to do so. That is twelve steps. Twelve steps is the antithesis of abstaining.
Secondly, there is confusion between abuse and porn. There can be abuse in the making of porn and I trust there are few who would condone abuse, especially of the vulnerable. So the issue with porn is the sense that there is paying for abuse to continue. Perpetuating the cycle of abuse and damage. I believe that has to be accepted. As far as I am concerned consenting adult stuff is just that consenting and frankly no one else's business.
Thirdly, it is the compulsive nature of the addiction which is damaging, the involvement to the exclusion of other needs. An example may be that many drinkers go to the pub and have three or four pints each night, pack up go home. Sometimes they don't drink but they can stop. Others, the compulsive ones never know if they start drinking tonight if they will binge or not. If the compulsion is dealt with by abstaining then that compulsive nature will emerge in a different compulsion, causing cross addictions. My H claimed to abstain from gambling but became compulsive about golf, cigarettes and is well on his way to alcoholism. He is also a compulsive spender and womaniser. Why? because he did not deal with his compulsion fully, he did so by abstaining. His plane is heading for the mid Atlantic.As his W and now his WAW I was tired of the line in the sand attitude, you have issues deal with them.
Fourthly, porn and desires are different to wants. I have a happily married friend whose H has exotic tastes which they have discussed and indulge from time to time. It works both ways, not her bag but her love enables her to participate. Although I confess her H would much rather have a more active energetic partner than one who compromises out of love. I suppose it depends on the nature of the desire too, and trust me I have plenty too. In my book if my STBX used porn it would only bother me if it became compulsive like his gambling. He lost presence in his life by the compulsion not by that need. For H this was a distraction from his insecurity and need. Abstaining alone wont heal. I went to counselling with him, attended Gamanon for me so I could cope with his gambling and provide for him a healing environment.
Of course stopping the interaction with the compulsion , in this case porn is the first step to recovery. If low self esteem is the trigger then address it. Your W Pyrite has no power to make you feel 'special' that is your power alone, and you can make you feel special. There is nothing wrong with wanting acceptance and love, validation of our deepest needs.
As far as V is concerned porn is the expression of the compulsion not its cause. It is brave of you both to discuss this so openly.
Zues, you and I have had similar discussions in the past. Lets be clear porn can (but not always will) interact with abuse, control and harm and society of itself can punish those whose involve themselves in harming others particularly those vulnerable through age, financial circumstances and family background. Abstaining is hard to maintain without steps to heal and recover.
Peace
V
Thanks Vanilla. I certainly agree with your assessment of abstinence not really being recovery. I was thinking more of say an alcoholic presenting his excessive drinking to his Dr. The Dr would say first up - kill the drinking.
Of course stopping the interaction with the compulsion , in this case porn is the first step to recovery. If low self esteem is the trigger then address it. Your W Pyrite has no power to make you feel 'special' that is your power alone, and you can make you feel special. There is nothing wrong with wanting acceptance and love, validation of our deepest needs.
OK so this is the thing. low self-esteem is there. even if it wasn't
There is nothing wrong with wanting acceptance and love, validation of our deepest needs.
but when you dont get this and you already have low self-estem..... train wreck.
So - yes I agree that I have to fix my self-esteem, so that i feel special on my own, but this doesn't change basic requirement ^^ of a relationship.
Am I getting this wrong here?
BTW - just for the record I have/had problems with compulsive behaviour but porn isn't really one of them. I can understand it though, and could cross over very easily.
I would like to put in my 2 cents on this topic. I have been following this for a bit. This is just my opinion. I do have a little experience with this as WW and I have dealt with the porn issue. To me, addiction to porn where it is a problem is when it takes up your free time, spending too much money on it, spending money you don't have on it, would rather watch porn than anything else and if it causes problems in a relationship. I can also see where it could be a problem because someone is more comfortable with porn than interacting in a actual relationship.
My WW has accused me of always having to watch porn when we fooled around. This came up a couple months ago of course. I did validate her concern and apologized if I had hurt her in anyway. But the truth was, she wanted to watch it just as much as I did. She used to stop and pick up a movie once in awhile years ago. I also would start fooling around with her and she would say, why don't you put a movie in. She liked to play around and it worked for us because it was mutual. However, now I am a pig because it was all my fault and she just did it because that is what I wanted.
I watch porn from time to time. I do not spend a dime on it. But I am human and have urges. It is what it is. I am hoping that whoever I end up with in the future will want to spice things up also, but it is not a requirement for me. My WW pretty much controlled the bedroom stuff. If she was in the mood, we were good. If not, I may have played around to see if I could start something. If it worked, great. If not I left it alone. Have I had feelings of rejection at times, YES. But I got over it. I am human. I have emotions.
I think if someone feels they have a big problem than maybe they need to seek help to control it some. But if someone enjoys porn from time to time or wants it to be a big thing in the bedroom, than find a partner that also wants it. They are out there. Hopefully I made some sense. I am not on the intellectual level alot of you others are!! LOL!! I am just a simple country boy!!
oh and BTW V,
your example of the also and the pub is spot on and highlights an important part of the "compulsive behaviour" that I have founds usually invisible to others. I recall having to convince people that I did indeed have a problem (with drugs,alcohol). One of the things that I was aware of and scared of was exactly that - once I started, no matter where or how a multi-day bender was always on the cards. it often didn't end up that way, but that was as much chance as anything else.
New thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...442#Post2568442