Another Train novella that includes A LOT of venting ... with (I think) a point:
I, too, liked the idea of the Man Cave and took some good stuff from it - and was left wanting more. I thought the original post unfortunately kicked the thread off in an exclusive, arrogant way. And clearly some of the male posters here agreed. And - on the topic of emasculating men - here's what struck me as super-interesting: I was turned off (I say that in as non-sexual a way as possible) by the "boys-will-be-boys" and "remember women, this is the MAN CAVE" posts. What "attracted" ME was the few who jumped in and said: "Um, no. This does NOT represent me." And - coincidentally - those were the men later called "girlie men" by the male-creator of the thread. But I didn't see that AT ALL. I think that took MORE courage, which made those posts the manliest of all!
I digress. I'm just still playing all that over in my head. It was really an interesting - albeit brief - "social experiment" on the differences in men and women and a "litmus test" of sorts (for me at least) on what I, personally, find attractive in men.
Cat, I appreciate that you started a thread that is inclusive and then takes it a step further by asking your target-audience - women - to dig deep to figure out how we are contributing to emasculating men. I like it. And I like the accountability in it.
Incidentally, I've also been giving a lot of recent thought to this very subject and have even talked to some of my friends - and my D17 & 18 - about it.
I saw the other day, cat, where (if I'm remembering correctly) you stated that the feminist movement is primarily responsible for emasculating men. I think it played a part by starting a ball rolling to empower women. But I'd hate to think of this country if it hadn't experienced women's suffrage (and the feminist movement) and the civil-rights movement (even though the latter is erroneously blamed by some for things like looting and riots like the feminist movement is blamed for men being "feminized"). In the interest of full disclosure, my minor in college was Women's Studies; therefore, I studied the feminist movement (and other minority movements) quite extensively and don't shy away from calling myself a feminist. (Interestingly, it shocks people to know this considering I'm still with my H after his two As, but that's diving in a little deep this early in your thread.
)
I think women ARE contributing to emasculating men. But I don't think it starts in Ms. I think it's starting at birth - with mothers and sons.
I have three daughters and one son. I have raised my daughters to be independent powerhouses. And I - admittedly - "baby" my son in comparison. I've always theorized that's because as a woman, I know what my girls are up against in this world. And I raise them to be prepared for their experiences. I've always looked to my H to do the same for my son. It's not that I love my son more. I raise him how to treat a woman lovingly and respectfully. I expect my H to teach him how to be a "man." And I HOPE I'm doing right in that ...
But, alas, H's mom babied HIM, too. She was the definition of the "perfect" 1950s wife and mother, and she and I have spoken about this very topic extensively. My H's father was the disciplinarian, who used his belt to punish when my H misbehaved. H still recalls his dad coming home from work and eating cheetos and smoking his pipe in his recliner while reading the newspaper ... while his mom scurried around the house, cooking dinner, cleaning, canning and raising her two sons.
My mom wasn't the 1950s W, per se; she wasn't even born until 1958. She was abused as a child and became a conflict-avoidant W and mother while my dad called the shots. But she has ALWAYS babied my little brother (the only boy of three kids). She still does. And she's finally acknowledged that her love for him was just "different" than her love for her daughters. (Which makes my stomach turn.)
Recently, my D17 had to deal with a "boy mom." She had broken up with her on-and-off-again boyfriend of four years several months ago. And as usual - as is typical for "young love" - they were getting back together. And this mom - who has supposedly loved my D17 since she was 13 and has taken her in as one of their own when D17 was dating her S18 - went ballistic. As in: psychotic. She literally started bullying and harassing my D17, texting her to tell her to leave her S18 alone. Forbidding them from dating because my D17, the last time she broke up with her S18, had "broken his heart." She went so far as to go to the cell-phone store to block D17's number from her S18's phone. She forged emails and sent them to D17 from her S18's email address. She called the high school guidance counselor to tell her to keep D17 away from her S18. It was shocking - and sad - for our family because we've known her S18 since he was 15 and consider him just another part of our family. The mom went so far as to call ME on a Saturday night and warned me to keep my D17 away from her son. I told her I wouldn't do that because I didn't want to turn them into a modern-day Romeo and Juliet. I encouraged her to let things ride. "The kids have been dating on-and-off for four years," I said. "Break-ups are natural and healthy. It's how they learn about relationships. Just let it ride. D17, so far, has been accepted into three out of the four colleges she applied to; we're waiting to hear from the fourth one. She's on her way to big things. Just let it fizzle out." And - I'm not even kidding - this mom laughed and said to me (over the phone): "So just leave him alone? Why? So he can turn out like YOUR daughter? You raised a WHORE! You have an 18-year-old daughter who is PREGNANT. You raise WHORES!" She went on to also call D17 (whose never been pregnant) a whore ... and ... (wait for it) ... ME a whore since I was pregnant at 18!
THIS is how invested this mother was in her 18-year-old son's life.
She went on to tell her S18 - when he was on the phone with her and sitting beside my D17 - that D17 was trying to "get pregnant on purpose, just like her older sister" (which, fwiw, is NOT true; my oldest daughter IS pregnant and is DEVASTATED but made the tough decision to carry and take responsibility for the child she helped create ... which is more than I can say for the douchebag that knocked her up).
Instead of standing up to his mother - instead of standing up FOR my daughter, who he has dated for four years - this legal-adult boy tucked his tail between his legs and cowered to his mom, telling D17 that he thought it would be best if they would just "let it blow over" ... but keep seeing each other secretly.
Here's the thing: my daughters were raised differently. First, I was a single mom until D18 was 6 and D17 was 5. I raised my girls to be independent and strong because that's what they need to be in this world. Their dad had little-to-nothing to do with them. And when they were 8 and 9, their stepdad walked out on them, too. He walked out again on us last year. (I'll get to that in a minute.) They're a product of their past AND what they were taught by me, a single mom, through my words and my actions. They watched me go to college full-time - graduating when D18 just finished Kindergarten and D17 was headed INTO Kindergarten - while holding down a full-time job to provide for them. They saw a mom who was determined. Capable. Strong. And they've ended up the same way.
Meanwhile, their male counterparts have their mommas coddling them.
My D18 is pregnant. Baby Daddy's family knows. She's 25 weeks along now. She still texts Baby Daddy, even though he hasn't had the testicular fortitude to come over here and meet H and/or me. We've never met him. He told D18 earlier on that his mom stands behind HIM in wanting D18 to abort or put the baby up for adoption - basically, to "get rid of the problem." Another coddling boy-mom. Meanwhile, my D18 is over here, doing the heavy-lifting, watching her body change, her life change, her perspective change, her priorities change. Her EVERYTHING change. And Baby Daddy (age 20) just cops out. He says he's "scared." He wouldn't even tell his parents because - gasp! - they told him if he got a girl pregnant they would stop paying his car payment and college tuition.
As for my current H? My older daughters have been abandoned by him twice - once when they were 8 and 9 (when I was pregnant with S8) and then again last year (after we'd added another daughter, now 3, to our brood).
Did I play a part in an unhappy M? You betcha. Here's what's weird: H left in 2005, just 18 months after we were married, because - he said - essentially I was too independent and too mouthy. I was wildly successful in my career, even though I didn't make NEAR the amount of money H makes/was making. My success made me feel powerful and confident. By contrast, it made HIM feel "stupid" and "ignored." He has confided in me now that he had second-thoughts about marrying me *at the moment I was walking down the aisle*. I laughed and told him he wasn't the only one! (Neither of us knew the other had such doubts.) I put him second to my job. And he left me for OW1 when I was almost two months pregnant with our S8. He came back home four months later with an OW who was two months pregnant. I took him back and forgave him, realizing I needed to get off my high-horse and should drop some of my old built-up walls that I had created to "protect" myself.
H told me: "I'm torn between your independence and my mom's 'June-Cleaver' status. I need you to be my wife. I want the life where my wife adores me and takes care of the house and has a hot dinner waiting on me when I get home from work."
When I found out that one of his issues was my independence and my job, I resigned once S8 was born. I became a SAHM, just like his mom was. I thought that was the ticket; that would make him happy (and it would make me happy, too; I could take my job or leave it, for the most part, and I loved the idea of staying home with my son). I even started homeschooling my son when he started Kindergarten. And I started canning. And baking. And crafting and sewing again.
And guess what? H left again last year. Guess what he said? I had lost my "drive" and my "confidence". And those things, he said, made him fall in love with me. (When I landed a freelance gig while H was wayward in the same profession I had left because THAT had apparently made him unhappy 9 years ago, he was literally SEXUALLY aroused that I had people begging me to come work for them!!!)
(I mean, SERIOUSLY?!? OMG, the struggle is REAL!)
I have and I WILL take my licks for creating an unhappy marital environment. We're working HARD through our issues. And I'll completely agree that grown women are emasculating men. But at least from where I sit, and at least specific to the current, younger generation(s), they're castrating them at the same time they're being circumcised ... and not necessarily after they're marrying them. (But I'm absolutely certain that's happening, too.)
I've been guilty of it, too. BIG TIME! My H works two jobs so that I can stay home and raise our kids and cook meals and take care of our home. (Yep. Hardcore feminist, I am.
) He leaves the bills to me. And instead of getting behind him when he wanted to make a job-change because he was miserable, I hovered over him, nagging about our bills and how he CAN'T change jobs from the place making him so miserable because of how it would impact our bottom-line. I have nagged him silly. He wanted to spend money he earned on things that made him happy. I told him those things were too expensive.
Man, have I learned what a disservice I did to our M.
I mean, yes. My H has made some bad choices due to his unhappiness at work. Those bad choices left us at a point where we had to fight foreclosure of our home. (In other words, yes, when he made ONE bad choice, it created HUGE - and long-lasting - consequences for our entire family.) But that was ONCE in 10 years. And I chose to hold that over his head and treat him like another child to "keep him in line" because of that decision. When he left for the second time, I was forced to ask myself: Would I rather be WITH him and in risk of losing my house or WITHOUT him and CERTAIN of losing my house?
That was a huge eye-opener for me. And it's been one of my biggest - and, admittedly, HARDEST - 180s since he left most recently in March 2014.
And you know what? Surprise of all surprises: H recently started complaining about his job again. I started freaking out, internally. But, I remembered the question I asked myself when he was gone (above), and I told him: I don't want you to be miserable. Am I worried? Yes. You know that's my nature. But I believe in you, I know your family is your priority, and I know you will make the best choice to benefit all of us. I believe in you." All a sudden, he crunched his OWN numbers, he made his OWN choice not to leave his current place of employment (yet), and he has had a MUCH more positive attitude at work. And, he smiled at me and said: "You've really changed, Train. Thank you for believing in me."
I don't know what tomorrow will bring. But that was a great lesson for me.
I know I've been long-winded and have flipped around everywhere and gone around my a$s 18 times to get to my elbow.
But those are my observations.
In my particular case, I'm raising strong, opinionated, determined daughters. My oldest daughters have been abandoned by men. They watch me forgive. (They don't see that H has any reason to forgive, even though I know I've wronged him, too, but even though I talk to my daughters about it, they don't "hear" it.) They're tough. They almost expect to be abandoned these days. Meanwhile, the moms of 18 and 19 year old boys are threatening and bullying these girls ... and supporting their sons shirking their responsibilities, like babies they helped create.
That isn't a product of the feminist movement. That's a product of mothers raising weak, entitled sons that run from the hard stuff while girls take on the heavy-lifting, which, in turn, empowers them and makes them know they can do things alone. And those girls end up married. And then they treat their spouses like boys instead of men.
I'm wayyyyy over-generalizing. I'm just speaking from my little corner of the world. And, yeah, I had a lot to say. Like I said, this very subject has been weighing on me heavily the past while.
I just hope I'm raising my son to be attentive and sensitive but strong and honorable and chivalrous and resolved. I hope I'm raising him to be the kind of man that had the courage to show up in the "Man Cave" the other day and talk about chicken wings and beer ... but also felt man enough to tell another man: Uh, naw, bro. I won't get down like that. That's no way to treat women.
And I hope my son meets a woman that LETS him be that man. And loves and values and respects him for it.
