Hello everyone. I've been browsing some stories here, but I'm starting to wonder if my situation is too far outside the scope of what DB was designed for. I'm going to paint a more of a complete picture of my life than most others may have done because 1) it seems very relevant and 2) it just helps to let it all out. Here goes...
My wife walked away in October 2014. We have been married since 2009 (unplanned pregnancy) and have been together since 2001 (high school sweethearts, both 16 at the time). We've only ever been with each other, and our relationship was somewhat different from others--not particularly passionate, but rather sweet, gentle, and more of a friendship, even from the very beginning.
In 2002 I almost lost her because I focused too much on work (been working since junior year in H.S.). It may sound strange, but at some point I think I somehow forced myself to feel something even though we were drifting apart. Or maybe it was just attachment. What does it matter...it felt real at the end of the day. Then in 2008, I almost lost her again when our then-mutual best friend sought a little too much comfort from her during one of his own relationship failures. She cited stagnation in our relationship and a lack of growth together as the trigger for her having feelings for some else. Eventually, thanks to a large effort on my part, the interloper was banished from our lives and after a month or so we managed to reconcile and continued on our merry way.
Almost a year later, we were pregnant with an unexpected child. She always wanted, I never did (I come from a long line of broken homes and just wanted to escape that cycle). She was still in college accumulating a sizable debt, and I was working an internship earning barely enough to make rent each month. Luckily a former classmate set me up with a full time job, but it was still a continuous struggle to keep up. We talked about abortion, but she said if I don't want the child I can just leave. I chose to stay, and I think that's when the seeds of destruction were planted, because at the point I became resentful that I would be losing out on the closeness with her which I always enjoyed. That mental rift between loving my wife and at the same time being angry with her took years to close, and it took a toll on our entire family.
Those years of raising our daughter were a nightmare for both of us. I fell into the typical trap of focusing too much on work. I did laps around my coworkers and enjoyed praise and promotion. Meanwhile, my wife was feeling so alone that she actually pushed us to move across state lines, willingly isolating herself from everyone she knew just so I can spend less time on the commute and not be so stressed. As you may have guessed, that's not how it worked out. I pushed even harder at work, causing my own self to suffer. Finally things reached the point where I became emotionally abusive. That love/hate rift became a chasm. Both of us lacked any sort of support system, and everything just went to hell. I had created a reality that can only be described as a depressive, nihilistic nightmare, and I pulled my entire family into it.
And yet, even at that point my wife tried to make things work by catering to any whim or fantasy of a better life I had ever spouted, and I just either ignored or berated her. She even offered for us to move further away yet to escape the situation. Then, in 2010, I had an emotional affair with a coworker, and my wife found out. Instead of giving up, she moved back in with her parents for a few months and told me that I can either move back with her and start over in our home state or I can just stay put and our relationship would be over. Of course I moved, but instead of genuinely starting over, all I did was bring the vortex of misery with me. I felt like I had failed at life and started having panic attacks. At that point we ended up seeing a marriage counselor (her idea) who suggested that we both need individual therapy as well, but we never followed up.
At the start of 2014, something strange happened, and I started to feel some sort of shift in my outlook on life. I stopped caring so much about work and started coming home earlier. Instead of b-lining straight for the bedroom, I would greet my wife and daughter with open arms. I genuinely thought that things were coming around. I was dead wrong. Even though I felt like I was becoming a new person, my old self was still in there, pulling me back. I became unstable, and my wife was terrified because she never knew which "me" to expect--the "let's all go out for a nice walk" or the explosive outbursts and self-harm. After my 30th birthday at the end of that September, she once again moved back in with her parents. She told me to seek professional help, and that only after several months of continuous therapy would she even consider coming back. She never kept that end of the bargain.
So I've been seeing a shrink since then, and in some ways, things have really been turning around. I exorcised any remaining traces of dissonance about having an unplanned child and built a wonderful relationship with my daughter (she is 5 1/5 now). After many years, I was able to reconnect with my mother and the sister I barely knew. I've been reaching out to friends and ways to keep busy with.
But I cannot reconnect with my wife. Our communication is rocky, and she is cold to me most of the time. Initially she would only talk to me via text, and avoided eye contact when I could come to pick up our daughter. When she came in for a collateral visit to one of my therapy sessions, she was frantic. My shrink asked her to give an account of what's wrong in our relationship, and she just rambled "make sure he doesn't kill himself," "just give me 17%," "I wanted to meet someone new." I told her I understand what I've done wrong and that I am willing to do anything possible to make things work. She broke down, started crying and said "why won't you just let me go." When I reached over to try and comfort her, she twisted away and shrieked "don't touch me." Her entire body contorted and I knew then that something was really wrong. I felt sick to my stomach. Maybe worth adding is the fact that she has been taking very good care of herself, and like a stupid male, I got jealous and took it at face value. Of course, her actually *saying* that she wants a divorce so she can meet a quality guy didn't help the paranoia either, but she's hasn't brought it up since then.
It's taken these four months to even have a coherent, minute-long conversation with her, and even now it's really just logistics. Her mood varies often, and I have at best a 50% chance of getting any response when I ask her about her day. She is extremely defensive, and any trace of being warm and friendly promptly brings up the D word again. She has been critical and suspicious of every positive change I've made in my life, and sometimes makes sarcastic and insulting remarks obviously meant to sting (took a while to learn to ignore these). Every time I talk to her I feel like I'm walking on eggshells. I've heard from secondary sources that she is glad that I was able to make these changes, but that it doesn't change how she feels (or rather doesn't) about me. She's given me the ILYBINILWY, "we can be friends," "I'm not attracted to you," et al, and I've done the pleading, begging, reasoning with the expected failure rate.
I am afraid that my wife has closed off her heart to me forever. She has shut out her parents, close friends, and anyone else who suggested we try to work it out. She said she's moving into her own place soon. It just seems like she wants to start a brand new life and never look back. Every time our daughter asks why we can't be a family together, my heart breaks and I don't know what to say except to reassure her that she is always loved no matter what. It's taken me over five years to understand what family really means, and now it's slipping away. I've ordered the DB book, and I am continuing with therapy, but now that I'm fully aware of all the atrocities I've committed over the years, I've lost a lot of my resolve to win her back because I don't feel I deserve her anymore.
And now I think I'm rambling like some lovesick man-puppy...
Welcome aboard. Hope your book arrives soon and that you will read it carefully.
It is sad that you did not appreciate what you had and treated her so shabby, and now you've woke up......she is done. That is how it goes with so many couples. You have been a big part of her life and hopefully that will be in your favor. Also, you are the father of her child, and there is a bond there between you.
You have a lot to learn about DBing, so read threads in Newcomers and get acquainted. Posting often is important, so hope to hear from you soon.
Sorry that you find yourself on here. If things were as bad as you say they were and you were as emotionally and mentally abusive to her as described, it's going to take alot of work on your part.
Are you willing to put in the work?
Eclipse,
Sorry you are here, but welcome nonetheless. I feel very connected to your story, I have a couple ties to the city in a previous life and your story is much like my own.
You have a lot of small details in your story, which makes me think you are open to analyzing the situation. You should read the DR/DB, read some success stories, read threads and then start to look at your own behavior and identify those areas where you enabled her to feel the way she feels, and to start taking ownership of your behavior and figure out how to change it to become the best version of yourself.
Are you willing to put in the work?
MrBond is right in asking. Change doesn't happen overnight, and it starts with you.
Welcome aboard, eclipse. Thanks for sharing your story.
You ask if your sitch is within the scope of DB and the answer is assuredly yes. DB is meant to save you as much as attempting to save your M. One risk at the beginning is to put all your focus on saving the M because it actually reduces your chances of doing so. DB is meant to help you by bringing back the focus on yourself, making you a more balanced person capable of taking decisive action but also to be an attractive person. You're beginning a new life and DB is there to help you make it better than the previous one.
With the reactions from your W that you describe, it sounds to me like you will have, more than average, to really let her go and focus on yourself. She doesn't want your comfort, she doesn't want to feel any attraction from you, she says she doesn't care about your changes. "You're already dead" is probably a good place to start. Your relationship is finished as of now and the only way forward will be a rebirth, which means you have to let it die for now.
As Mr. Bond said, this will be a long journey. Months, maybe years. It will get worse before it gets better. But no matter how it ends with your wife, you will emerge stronger with the help of DB. I hope you'll find the strength.
Don't forget to create your signature in your profile. Look at mine for an example.
Just got the book, along with a replacement tea kettle (I broke ours during the last outburst of anger right before W left), haven't had a chance to read yet.
I've been thinking about a conversation I had with the W while she was still in her frantic mode at the start of the month, and she asked if there was anything she could do that would make me just give her the D. Back then, I initially countered by calmly asking if there was anything I could do that would make her give our M another chance, and offered a trial run of a year or even half a year to see if she might feel differently (and that I would continue to stay in therapy during that time). She didn't take it so well and started threatening to lawyer up and have me served like her cousin in Canada did with her H. So I said that if there's no other way and she feels that strongly about it that she can go and jump through all those hoops and that there's nothing I can do about it. She backed off, but I've been wondering...
Has anyone heard of an all-or-nothing approach being used in a case like this? I've been considering the possibility of offering Michele's private sessions as a condition of D--that if we can't work it out there that there's really no chance we can work it out ever and that I'll give her the D in such a case. Thoughts?
I think there is a chance to work things out but both parties have to enter it with an open heart and an open mind.
It doesn't sound like she is open to that right now.
Some progress...we finally texted back and forth on a non-logistical topic (we agreed on a movie we don't like) but she got annoyed toward the end. I think she didn't want the convo to be so long or something I said triggered her defenses, so she went back to only logistics.
Read up to page 40 so far. The book says it can be used with a spouse, and a lot of the opening content seems to be geared for that, but I read in some other forum that DB book should *not* be shared...not sure what to follow?
Oh, and I think my wife might be setting up an affair.
Just thinking about all the things she said very early on when I tried to ask her to come back and remind her of the good times. She said she hates everything about me...appearance, jokes, musical tastes, relatives, the sex...EVERYTHING. At that point I was trying to think outside the box and actually suggested an open marriage thinking she might have repressed urges or what-not, to which she said she's not some kind of freak and that the only thing she wants is to get away from me. Makes sense, I guess. She's willing to part with the vast majority of our savings and outside of making threats, repeatedly said she wants to avoid attorneys and going through the system. Who knows what she's plotting now. I need a vacation.
Hi,
I am sorry for the situation you are in. Everyone here is right in saying that saving your marriage will require a lot of work on your part.
An intensive with Michele is life changing. You'll want to speak with Virginia regarding the details. If you want to seriously consider an intensive with Michele, Virginia can help you navigate that conversation with your wife. Please call The Divorce Busting Center at 303-444-7004 to speak with Virginia.
Cristy
Resource Coordinator
The Divorce Busting Center
303-444-7004
Who knows what she's plotting now.
I can tell you this much, it will be whatever will benefit her the most. Don't believe for a second that she won't try to get what she thinks is her share to all the finances, property, etc. That is why you need to be smart and protect yourself.
Who knows what she's plotting now.
Don't believe for a second that she won't try to get what she thinks is her share to all the finances, property, etc.
Well, all we have is cash we saved up for a home. Funny, it's in a savings account which is supposed to be joint, but I always put things off (one of the things the W said she can't stand about me) and never added my name to the account. She said she's okay with me keeping 75% of it and that I should open a separate account to which she'll transfer it. I've been putting it off (deliberately this time) in some foolish hope that it would serve as an anchor of sorts. We're also half way through a car lease in her name (she can't drive so I use it exclusively), but she hasn't said anything about it.
Now she has reversed her decision and wants to split it down the middle, insisting it's very fair (even before I said anything to the contrary). Her original idea was for me to buy a place closer to my job and that she would rent close to her folks. I was going to use those funds and buy a 2-bedroom not far from where I am now so our daughter would have a nice room of her own, but now the W is insisting we can both just buy 1-bedrooms and leave it at that. As it turns out, that's is a financially impossible reality because the price diff is small, and even if it were possible, our daughter wouldn't have her own room. Feels like my only choice is to just leave most of the money to the W and rent some crappy place myself...at least our daughter wins.
It's funny how her nervous tics keep showing through whenever she makes demands and threats, and especially when I don't immediately jump on board. Originally she threatens to go to lawyers, but when I say I need to consult with one, goes the other direction and says it's too expensive and that the money could be put to better use. Now she's pushing me and asking if I've thought about her 50/50 proposal. She hasn't done any research into the housing market, doesn't have a full-time job, hasn't talked to a loan officer. I know WAWs are supposed to have thought everything through long before leaving, but this is seriously starting to look like a Mickey Mouse operation. I thought I was the irresponsible one who never thought about logistics or planned anything. The worst part is I know she's blaming me for everything that goes wrong *after* she got out.
So,that is what your WAW wants. What do YOU want? Stand up for yourself and the place you want to get. If D5 will spending nights with you, then get a two bedroom place. Your WAW should not dictate what you can do after she leaves the M.
Eclipse
There is a lot of underlying work to do. The past is the past and will not be changed and eclipse that is both an excellent thing and a difficult thing.
Thank you for being honest, some board members are unhappily closed and that limits the advice they are given. If you read any of my sitch you will understand that I am an abused W. And I nearly walked away from my M, and I would point out to you that I am not in any way wayward, so I talk from an abused W standpoint only. I understand the abuse W view (or any abused party W or H) and as a result of the abuse then flashbacks and curl ups occur. In order to protect what is left of our self esteem we need to find ourselves again.
This is going to take a lot of time and patience on your behalf. You may have to wisely be over generous and caring when this does not come naturally. W will need to find and identify her boundaries to stop herself from flashing and protecting. She has to travel this journey herself first before W can contemplate a R with the H and sitch she wishes to escape. I understand that desire so well the want to be free to learn strength for yourself. when I first visited this board I was abused and weak, unhappy and a screaming banshee. Before any R then I will need to be strong, for I have been very confused. I loved but that love was used and worn down.
There is a lot of work that you will have to do on eclipse and generally you will need to atone for the past harms done. Making amends and growing for your own sake to become a better dad and eclipse are paramount. Abuse damages the abuser, that should never be under stated. The journey for those seriously abused is hard but for the abuser much harder as they also carry guilt. Changes needed must be more than superficial and for your own sake enduring. DB is a good place to start and you will get plenty of encouragements and 4x4s here.
Mza is a good guide as to the accomplishment of a man who has changed his life, a man who has grown and grown with DB. Over the months a wonderful young man with great resolve and spirit has emerged from a crisyls. I recommend you read his threads and take his guidance fully to heart. There is no better.
In the meanwhile explore Sandi guidelines for yourself.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2250607#Post2250607Think hard
Vanilla
This is going to take a lot of time and patience on your behalf. You may have to wisely be over generous and caring when this does not come naturally. W will need to find and identify her boundaries to stop herself from flashing and protecting. She has to travel this journey herself first before W can contemplate a R with the H and sitch she wishes to escape. I understand that desire so well the want to be free to learn strength for yourself. when I first visited this board I was abused and weak, unhappy and a screaming banshee. Before any R then I will need to be strong, for I have been very confused. I loved but that love was used and worn down.
A little bit of background may be in order. My W is a very soft, gentle person. She is shy and socially anxious. This has been a life-long issue for her and she always felt a lack of confidence because of this (so many self-help books on this topic in our bookshelf). Right now, at least around me, I can see she is really trying to change her demeanor and project assertiveness, but she is failing horribly at it. Of course it's not particularly her fault since I have a 15 year advantage and know all her tells, but I'm also the worst person to train on because when cornered have a tendency to sacrifice my own well-being just to get at others (observe self-harm reference in my first post). So she wants things and tries to push for them, but I can't just give her whatever she comes up with either and always have to be vigilant about not going into kamikaze mode again. It's such a delicate balancing act at the moment and every second of conversation feels like a lifetime.
Let W deal with W. This is not your job. It is Ws, just as much as my new spine was my own. Just note to yourself that it is a good sign that she is doing this and let it be. Silently wish her every success and let her find her own guides and trainers. After all when a baby starts to learn to walk and it falls over, we do not say "this baby is poor at this, guess it will never walk so lets get a big baby carriage." We let the baby carry on trying. Not that I am saying W is a baby, it is a metaphor, a better analogy would have been more like a new cyclist who needs the training wheels before the stabilisers are removed. I am sure you get the image.
W needs her own opinion for herself. That is the point. Stop managing W and manage eclipse and the 'kamikazee'.
You deal with you, would suggest you have enough with your own growth. Let us here much more about you and how you will grow and change.
So what do you want to change about Eclipse?
What are your goals for you?
Vanilla
Progress! Managed a two hour phone conversation. W has downgraded the request from divorce to separation and asked if I would give it to her if she goes to therapy for x period of time. Still threatening with the lawyers as an "alternative." Lots of the old statements about how I will change back eventually in two years, we're not right for each other, I am not really a family man and had to be forced, but much calmer and with much less bitter conviction this time. She asked if it makes sense to give her this time to see if whatever changes I make would actually stick in the long-term (perhaps the most reasonable thing I've heard so far). Also mentioned how she still wants another child but doesn't like the personality of our daughter (because that part comes from me) and that she would never want to live through the way I behaved while raising her. However, at the very core of it all, and in her own words, she says she "[doesn't] feel that [she] can trust [me] and that [she] opened her heart so many times before and [I] stomped on it." She claims she needs time to recover, but says she will most likely want to date other people during that time and that I should at least try doing the same. But I can't, for course, and if she does it seems it wouldn't increase the chances of stitching the family back together. I've left her alone completely as of late, seems to be working out for everyone. Dunno...maybe more time is needed yet.
Um, she says she doesn't like the personality of her daughter? That is just wrong. Find a way to document that, and you'll definitely get full custody.
Just a thought...why does getting herself together involve dating? Perhaps she is already interested in someone or has perhaps taken actions in that regard that you are not aware of.
Still you should continue to reflect on YOU and continue any GAL and self improvement activities that you can do. You can't control W and you shouldn't try. Make your life and your child's life the best it can be given today's reality. Make sense...?
Um, she says she doesn't like the personality of her daughter? That is just wrong. Find a way to document that, and you'll definitely get full custody.
It is really messed up, and it's not the first time she said that. Last time she mentioned it in passing, something along the lines of "she's definitely your daughter, unfortunately." My parents would say sh*t like that to me when I was growing up--"you're just like your mom/dad." I never thought that my W of all people would say things like that, especially since being a parent was her life-long dream.
Just a thought...why does getting herself together involve dating? Perhaps she is already interested in someone or has perhaps taken actions in that regard that you are not aware of.
Well, she *has* been saying how she started liking just about every other man she saw shortly before she left, and that was a sign to her that the R is a failure. So maybe. The thing is she keeps meandering between "independence" and "needing a partner," and really there's no way I can tell if it's for show or indecisiveness. Historically, she's always wanted a 50/50 relationship, but from what I've been hearing lately she wants a man who would lead and be more of a decision maker. Maybe it's just a reaction to feeling lost, or maybe I've just been such a bad H that I just don't know what my W really wanted all these years. As I've mentioned before, it's not particularly in her nature to be interested in art/music/tech/history/sports or anything else folks do for individual recreation or mental intrigue. I think she just likes to go out with people and have a "good time," and all the better if there's someone who she doesn't utterly despise to show her new and exciting ways to do that.
Still you should continue to reflect on YOU and continue any GAL and self improvement activities that you can do. You can't control W and you shouldn't try. Make your life and your child's life the best it can be given today's reality. Make sense...?
It does make sense. The truth is that I've been quite the homebody all these years and became very isolated (read "living under a rock"). Lately it's been a complete inversion--I'm out there meeting new people and surprisingly, having a good time. It's also allowed me to go to social venues with my daughter that I would never have considered in the past, and she's having a great time too!
Yes, it's amazing what not being an elitist antisocial ass can accomplish.
That's such a hurtful and inappropriate thing to say about your D.
I can understand that she may struggle with her feelings towards your D. Particularly if your D is very like her Dad, and you aren't top of the list of your W's favourite people just now.
But if I was feeling that way, I think I'd be trying to process it internally, or saying I had some negative feelings towards her right now as she's so like her Dad....and I need to deal with that.
Been a few days since my last post (~3 years in LBS time), might be a good time to jot down some notes.
Things have been progressing at a snail's pace. W took a weekend trip out of town with our mutual best friend (I shall refer to her as "Ace"). We had a brief conversation about taxes when I went to pick up our daughter, and toward the end she mentioned that after we get that out of the way, we'll eventually have to get to the "other paperwork." Oh, and she let a big one rip while I was waiting around. Awkward, but we had a laugh about it and honestly, I felt emotionally relieved. Oddly enough, she texted and called several times during her trip to ask about our daughter even though we've already spent this much time away since the whole mess began and there was no such inquiry back then. Improvement? Who knows.
Meanwhile, I've developed other problems. Spending so much time with Ace during this crisis has resulted in some very inappropriate redirection of feelings, and now I'm seeing her as more than a best friend. Couldn't have happened at a worse time, and my therapist is telling me to pursue (that can't possibly be healthy advice). I've also been called out for poor job performance, which I suppose is understandable given that I haven't done much except blankly stare at the monitor for the last 4 months. I'm going to start applying elsewhere just in case.
Attempting to keep busy...practicing on the keyboard, trying new recipes, working on my fashion sense (compulsive shopping much?), started calligraphy and sketching again after many years. It's not enough though, still not enough. I want to move out, but the money issue is unresolved and I feel trapped. I am adrift.
I'm taking a personal day tomorrow to rejuvenate, but seeing as how we might be having crappy weather I sent a text message to the W asking about possibly driving our daughter to school. She turned me down, then once again started asking about getting the ball rolling on the divorce. Is this some sort of trigger? She's allowed to ask for things, but I'm not allowed to offer?
I'm just going to continue ignoring for now since it still causes my anxiety levels to skyrocket every time she brings it up. But I think if push comes to shove, I'm going to have to decline bowing out gracefully and drag the divorce out as long as humanly possible...and then some. Just because she can't remember the "for better or worse" part, doesn't mean I should just as easily throw in the towel. If she hates our family so much, then there's nothing else I can do but try and fend her attacks off as long as possible. How tragic that we ended up switching roles.
Okay, it's bothering me now. How can I rebuild trust if the W intentionally prevents all opportunity to do so? It seems like a catch-22--she can't give the R another chance until she can trust, but I can't earn the trust until given another chance. Maybe I'm stupid and missed something in all this.
And the pattern is definitely recurring...she randomly calls and asks me to take care of our daughter outside the normal schedule, but freaks out when I offer. Just the other day, I was about to leave for work when I get a call about how it's cold and she'd like me to drive D to school. No problem. When I get there, she maintains distance, doesn't really say anything, and instead gets into a sort of staring contest with me. So weird.
I didn't know I was so far gone. I tend to dig around in my memories a lot these days, and I realize now that the W was talking about divorce since the summer! She was actually describing how we would go our separate ways, and that she would even help me find someone else--WTH? I don't know what's wrong with me, but I am really afraid now. How could I have been so oblivious? I was doing better since the start of that year, but apparently was also doing worse at the same time. How is this possible? Was I becoming unstable? Will need to discuss in IC.
W called today, sounding very upbeat. Apparently she gave up on trying to buy an apartment and has been hunting for a rental. Reason for the call? One of the places she saw reminded her of me and the kinds of things I was looking for back when we apt-hunted together (even floors, parking, etc.). And it's right next to her folks--not far from where I am now (and where she will be soon).
Why? What does she care where I live? First she tried to send me far, far away. Now this. No reminders of divorce/separation/lawyers/accounts. She just seems so...pleased with herself and doing things on her own. How sickening.
I didn't know I was so far gone. I tend to dig around in my memories a lot these days, and I realize now that the W was talking about divorce since the summer! She was actually describing how we would go our separate ways, and that she would even help me find someone else--WTH? I don't know what's wrong with me, but I am really afraid now. How could I have been so oblivious? I was doing better since the start of that year, but apparently was also doing worse at the same time. How is this possible? Was I becoming unstable? Will need to discuss in IC.
The same was happening to me a few months ago. I would dig into old emails and find red flags that I had missed. A week before meeting OM, for instance, she wrote me she was miserable and would like to know a way to take a break from each other. I had completely missed that. Why? Because we're overly confident. It can't happen to us. It's just daily grudge, these things come and go, it's part of an argument, etc. Many of us find the signs leading to S after the fact. That's why I've started to be more blunt with friends about the red flags in their relationships.
W is going to the circus with daughter and Ace today, and during the morning call about return time started bringing up "official business" again. I was in a rush to put breakfast on the table already, so I politely excused myself. When I dropped D off, W asked if I could come in to talk while wearing that nervous smile of hers. Of course it was a bad idea, but it's true that I used avoidance in the past (on the list of grievances) so I can't keep doing that indefinitely either.
We talked. For an hour. She no longer maintains physical distance and seems quite comfortable sitting next to me. Neither does she exhibit panic when talking. She's..."normal" now. I feel anxiety but maintain composure and a steady, calm voice. I think she hates that. Abridged exchange follows (IN NO PARTICULAR ORDER).
W: Why won't you talk about this issue? You always do this...always leave things in limbo.
Me: This topic makes me sick to the stomach. You are asking me to do something which violates my core values. It took over five years and almost destroying myself to understand what matters in this life--how can you expect me to do something contrary now? It's not like I can just go back to being the way I used to be, and even if it were possible, who in their right mind would want to?
W: You're just being stubborn. You're always being stubborn <insert apples::oranges comparison to work here>. If family really matters to you, you can find someone else and make another one, and I can do the same. I don't want to have another child with you.
Me: How come? Am I doing a poor job with this one?
W: No, you can be a great dad. But that doesn't mean we have to be together. We should never have been together this long and should have ended things when we started fighting a year after we met. The only reason we stuck together is because we both had confidence issues.
Me: But then our daughter would never have been born.
W: You know what I mean. We don't work well together and bring out the worst in each other. And you always wait until things get really bad to make any changes.
Me: You're right, I can't imagine how hard it must have been watching me live the way I have. You shouldn't have to tell me--I've spent a lot of time figuring out where I went wrong. But how could I have known then? How could someone who never planned on being a parent have known that family life could be so amazing?
W: I don't care. I remember how I used to talk about "we." Now I realize how much I hate it. I am my own person and want to think about "me." I have free will and I want to do whatever I want.
Me: I don't really know what to tell you.
W: I'm tired of waiting. I'll give you two months. Do you really want to throw away all that money on lawyers? I've been trying to do you a favor and avoid that. You know if we go to court, I'll get the divorce anyway, don't you? We can split now and maybe in two years we'll be good friends, or we can fight it out and be enemies.
Me: So you're giving me an ultimatum? I don't really understand how that leads to friendship.
W: You're the reason both of us feel stuck. You're just using your emotions, and I'm being logical about this. If I was being emotional like you, I would just go back. But since you're not here I can actually think clearly.
Me: I'm sorry it's taking me so long to catch up with you. I really am trying to see this from your perspective.
W: Here's what I'll do for you. I will come to your next therapy appointment and see if I can help with you moving forward.
Me: Thanks, I will think about it.
In the end, she was annoyed and started taking stabs at me. She also popped some Tylenol and said something along the lines of "I never get headaches, you're gonna cause me to get liver failure." I took the pills too, if only for the sake of comradery. By now they were also running late and she asked for a ride to the train, and I agreed. While we were walking to the car, she kept rambling on and on about how she doesn't need luxuries like being driven around, that she's learned to get by without it. Then she quietly got in. Mind you, the guy she almost ran off with before we got married? Yeah...he had a car, and that was one of the reasons (sorry, teenagers back then).
During our short drive, she started asking about what can I do if I'm not going to give her any paperwork right now. She asked about child support payments...how would I like to start making them, or if I would like to not pay them at all. She also asked if I could at least take her name off the utility bills and the joint checking account. Then she pointed out where that apartment she recommended was located (it was on the way), and mentioned how she didn't want it was too inconvenient for her parents to visit and thought it wasn't too far. And finally, our destination. I told her I will think about everything she said and wished her and our daughter to have a good time.
So I did not try to persuade her to come back...just dissecting the thought process. I realize that judging by this encounter, it sounds like everything is going to hell. But sitting there and actually talking to her normally...seeing her in the daylight...it makes me feel close to her. Of course I can't really show it, but still. I am so screwed.
She doesn't trust me, doesn't want to depend on me. She says she has an easy time getting through the day because she avoids looking at photos and even thinking about the situation. She says she's not angry, forgives, and understands, yet reminders of every little thing I've ever done wrong ooze out of her like venom, even when she's calm.
"How many chances am I supposed to give you? I've given you too many already."
Words don't matter. Actions don't matter. How can I let her know that her love and kindness all these years past didn't just disappear into nothingness? How can I let her know that I do not take her and the family she has given me for granted? How can I make her believe that I will never give in to anger or complacency? What in this world can I give of myself to deserve one final chance at the life she once tried to share with me?
Another hour-long conversation. I'm getting good at dragging them out of her, except it's very emotionally draining and I feel depressed for days afterward. So she's on a new kick: rather than not being in love now, apparently she's *never* been in love. Okay, so in my introduction, I did say our relationship was more of a friendship than anything. What I didn't know was that it bothers her. Further she continues to point out how we're not right for each other and can't possibly want the same things in life, otherwise I wouldn't have become so depressed in the first place. She thinks a relationship shouldn't be so hard to maintain that one person becomes suicidal in the process. Maybe so, but I'm still here and I still keep coming back for more, don't I? It seems that going to hell and back for the people you care about is not respectable in her view--it should come naturally or not at all. How does one argue with this logic?
At some point she started crying again about why I won't just let her move on. I don't why she is crying if she says she doesn't want to try anymore....especially this many months down the line and with the things she's been saying. None of it makes any sense. After the phone call, when I dropped our daughter off and said I'll be going on a business trip in a few weeks, her face lit up and she was very curious about who I'm going with. She seemed disappointed that it was just coworkers...does she really want me to get a girlfriend that badly? Jeez.
Meanwhile, I've backslid so far that there's probably no chance of coming back now. I just don't feel like I can do this anymore. What do I want to change about myself? I don't know. It's hard when you have no real goals in life. IC isn't helping much...that I can tell. I've started looking for places to move out to, even if it's just renting until I can figure out what to do about our savings. Some change is better than no change at all, I suppose. And perhaps that's the first real change so far.
Dude, I feel for you, I really do. I've heard it all before, and it does sound like a classic bout of MLC. Don't try to make sense of of all, because there is none to be made, there is no amount of logic to explain it, so don't even try. She is lost to you at this point and NOTHING you say or do will budge her. NOTHING.
It is not about you, it is about her. She's got to get on with her journey of growing up and it is her journey to take. You CANNOT fix her, because you have not broken her. Prepare yourself for the possibility of another man in the picture. There usually is one. Protect yourself and protect your assets ( savings). Your W has became a stranger to you. If you could trust her with your life before, now she will lie and not blink, if she was a stay at home mum, now she will go out partying. She will do $hit that will confuse the hell out of you (but you have probably figured that one out already).
Stay strong and be the best dad you can be. You gave been given the gift of time, use it wisely. WHAT DOES ECLIPSE WANT TO DO IN LIFE? You want to take that trip you always dreamed about? Now is the time. You also have a journey to take. You have to lead by example. Do not focus on your wife and her actions, because it won't make any sense and you trying to make sense of it all will just drive you CRAZY. You have to detach for your own sanity. TRUST ME, I DO KNOW WHAT I AM SAYING. IT will get better, but honestly for a bit more it will get worse. Your D needs the best dad in the world and you owe it to her to became one.
I am glad you found this board. You are among friends here and we understand you (you have figured out by now that your friends and family do not understand). Come here and rant, come here and vent, don't bottle it up inside. Also GAL (get a life), find stuff to do with your spare time, and stay away from booze or other quick fixes.
Dude, I feel for you, I really do. I've heard it all before, and it does sound like a classic bout of MLC.
Women get MLC? And at 29?? Sorry, I don't know much about the human condition because I have a natural tendency to self-isolate and have lived a very sheltered life since I met my W at age 16. So is this similar to how I started to question my life and flipped out right before I turned 30 back in September? Is it her turn now?
It is not about you, it is about her. She's got to get on with her journey of growing up and it is her journey to take. You CANNOT fix her, because you have not broken her. Prepare yourself for the possibility of another man in the picture. There usually is one.
It is confusing. She hated me for giving so much of myself to my job and now she is working herself to death in a graveyard shift which takes a heavy toll on her mentally (one of the key reasons I was supportive of her switching jobs before). She is so pleased with herself for getting by without me...I wonder if she thinks it's the same as what I had to go through while supporting our family. Yeah, she keeps talking about finding another man and having a child with him because she wants another one and can't fathom the thought of doing that with me again.
Protect yourself and protect your assets ( savings).
Kinda hard to do because she keeps changing her mind. First she wanted to give me most, then split 50/50, now back to most just so I would let her go already. She asks me how much child support I would like to pay but then asks if I even want to pay child support at all. How can I plan around this? I don't know...take when she's offering and shove it into some account for the kid that she can't touch? I've never had financial aspirations...as long as I have enough for food and shelter, I just don't care. It bothers her because she doesn't have that as leverage--I'm willing to burn our savings to the ground and spend any extra income to keep her stuck with her parents for the next few years.
WHAT DOES ECLIPSE WANT TO DO IN LIFE? You want to take that trip you always dreamed about? Now is the time. You also have a journey to take. You have to lead by example.
The problem is that I never wanted anything out of life except female companionship. Sad, I know...but I pretty much have everything else one needs to get by. I think I read in Sandi's rules I'm not supposed to be having *that* kind of fun at this stage. To complicate matters, there is the interesting caveat in my marriage, that my W and I are each others first and only. I think I made it an unwinnable scenario because I did express interest in sexual encounters with other women at some points in the R. This was especially the case at the height of my pre-30 insanity, and at some point I actually started verbalizing low confidence in carrying through on such curiosities (yes, I know it's insane). So now she uses this as ammunition and calls me an "eligible bachelor," saying that as a good looking guy with a great job I shouldn't have any trouble finding someone. And yes, for the first time in my life, I've actually started noticing that women other than my wife do actually check me out, and that apparently some really good-looking ones who stalk me on Facebook would like meet me (thanks, sis). And it's flattering, it really is...but I just don't care. The grass isn't greener on the other side, and I am hotter for W than ever.
From the bird-eye view: if I don't meet anyone else, she doesn't feel like I chose her and that I'm still just in desperation mode. If I do meet someone else, it proves I'm not serious about family life and she was right to suspect it would become a problem eventually. Checkmate!
stay away from booze or other quick fixes.
Crap, I just finished up a spare grigio!
I should add that during that last phone convo, W said that she's not in any rush to get the paperwork at the moment. First time I've heard that so far!
Hey,
My nyc buddy, I am from Brooklyn , lived there my first 35 years. I had a few of those hour long conversations myself, and I think they did me no good, the last one being when my wife brought up the seperation agreement 7 weeks ago. She said she was anxious about it not getting done and was going to work on a draft and send it to me, and while I did get emotional, I didn't try to talk her out of it. She hasn't brought it up since, I won't bring it up. The hour long conversations prior to that one, I begged, reasoned, etc., all the things not to do.
These last 7 weeks I have pulled back more and more, all the while loving her and treating her with respect, and things have improved.
Anyway, what is the longest you have not been in contact with her, maybe you need to pull back.
I can feel your pain from reading your posts, my seperation is tearing me apart, but I think as everyone is telling us, keep working on ourselves, and it will get better.
Dude, you have some serious soul searching to do...
One thing I would suggest too is an anger management course. There are a few things you have said that make me think she may be fearful of her safety, the broken tea kettle, her flinching when you reached for her, the way she talks to you on the phone (strongly) then in person (passively). I think she is scared of you.
Hey,
My nyc buddy, I am from Brooklyn , lived there my first 35 years. I had a few of those hour long conversations myself, and I think they did me no good, the last one being when my wife brought up the seperation agreement 7 weeks ago. She said she was anxious about it not getting done and was going to work on a draft and send it to me, and while I did get emotional, I didn't try to talk her out of it. She hasn't brought it up since, I won't bring it up. The hour long conversations prior to that one, I begged, reasoned, etc., all the things not to do.
These last 7 weeks I have pulled back more and more, all the while loving her and treating her with respect, and things have improved.
Anyway, what is the longest you have not been in contact with her, maybe you need to pull back.
I can feel your pain from reading your posts, my seperation is tearing me apart, but I think as everyone is telling us, keep working on ourselves, and it will get better.
I tried to pull back, but that doesn't really help. Reason is that I've "pulled back" in the past and that's one of the contributing factors to the decline of the relationship. Also, even though I've given the W all the space she wanted, it hasn't stopped the clock from ticking in her mind and she's growing impatient. Avoid the issue doesn't work...another vice from the past. So I can't confront, but I can't stall either. Checkmate.
Dude, you have some serious soul searching to do...
Care to elaborate? Anything would help at this point.
One thing I would suggest too is an anger management course. There are a few things you have said that make me think she may be fearful of her safety, the broken tea kettle, her flinching when you reached for her, the way she talks to you on the phone (strongly) then in person (passively). I think she is scared of you.
Funny you mention that. First off, when she asked for a lift on 2/22 (
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2541253#Post2541253), she expressed hesitation because I'm probably angry and that I'll drive like a maniac as I usually do when in that state (in my studies, I've learned how in some cases, this is a form of emotional abuse, apparently). Then today, when I stopped by in the morning to drive D to school, I happened to stop the car right in front a giant slush puddle. When I stepped out to help D into the car, both my feet slid ankle deep into the slush. As I stood there in utter disbelief, my W looked at me and said something along the lines of "quick, use those anger management techniques!" (obviously referring to my IC). I just laughed it off, but you're right--in the past, I would blow up when something like that would happen, and it always freaked her out. It feels good to have it under control.
At first it put me on edge, but now I'm really enjoying how the W is questioning every little thing I'm doing differently.
Eclipse - It sounds like things are going well. What are you implementing that supports her behavior? Do you think you are doing all you can?
Eclipse - It sounds like things are going well. What are you implementing that supports her behavior? Do you think you are doing all you can?
The things that seem to pique her interest is my actually going out and interacting with the world in some way. Traveling somewhere, making playdates and interacting with people, etc. I guess it's the stuff she felt was missing in our lives when I was really depressed/withdrawn.
Makes sense. The idea that you have accepted what is going on and are moving on. She will feel like she is loosing you and the mysteriousness of your life will impact her.
Do you think you are doing all you can? Are you implementing change in any of the areas she identified?
Do you think you are doing all you can? Are you implementing change in any of the areas she identified?
No, I don't think so. I'm going to move out of this crappy apartment. That would address the following persistent concerns:
* W has to act as "mommy" (in her own words) and push me to do anything with my life
* me always sticking to the same thing
* not providing for family in ways other than monetary
This place really blows. It's noisy, seedy surroundings, D can't really live in the second bedroom for various reasons, and the bathroom ceiling collapsed on me once when I was showering. W and I both complained a lot about it, but even though I was showing some initiative with moving out last year, I was indecisive and didn't carry through.
eclipse - Those are physical/environmental changes. What about your behavior to her?
eclipse - Those are physical/environmental changes. What about your behavior to her?
I don't think so. I'm not really sure what to change or if anything should be changed at all, for that matter. Or maybe I don't fully understand what you mean. Remember, I'm maintaining as little contact as possible--speak when spoken to.
I think her response is to be expected. At least I can relate, my X was the same.
I'm looking to you to identify what you believed enabled her reaction of getting a D. You are not a victim, you did contribute to the demise. All I have seen your write about is being withdrawn, perhaps I missed it. But laying out all the items she may believe will help you focus on things to become better and react in different ways to the situations that will face. By reacting differently than you always have she will notice. Actions speak louder than words.
I will use myself as the example...
My X would say that I was. Short tempered/Overreact, Condescending/Overbearing, Withdrawn, etc
I am addressing being...
Short Tempered, by learning how to be patient. I read a book on how to implement techniques to give myself space so I don't overreact. I am trying to implement those.
Condescending, by learning how to validate a person's feelings and emotions and trying to become a better listener...
Etc
I think her response is to be expected. At least I can relate, my X was the same.
I'm looking to you to identify what you believed enabled her reaction of getting a D. You are not a victim, you did contribute to the demise. All I have seen your write about is being withdrawn, perhaps I missed it. But laying out all the items she may believe will help you focus on things to become better and react in different ways to the situations that will face. By reacting differently than you always have she will notice. Actions speak louder than words.
I will use myself as the example...
My X would say that I was. Short tempered/Overreact, Condescending/Overbearing, Withdrawn, etc
I am addressing being...
Short Tempered, by learning how to be patient. I read a book on how to implement techniques to give myself space so I don't overreact. I am trying to implement those.
Condescending, by learning how to validate a person's feelings and emotions and trying to become a better listener...
Etc
I haven't learned anything. W has been using the expression "move forward," and it's been annoying the crap out of me, so I asked where she got it from, except the way I asked was actually attacking her (insinuating she's not creative enough to come up with it on her own). So she got it from a self-help book--the kind I've always criticized her for wasting time on. Then I attacked her again by asking her how much she read about improving the marriage as opposed to ending it (disapproving of her personal activities). Missed opportunity to connect.
I'm failing here.
W called to tell me about D being sick and possible impact to my plans tomorrow. Reminded me to take her name off the bills because (and, oh by the way) she rented a new place. From bad to worse.
"I never loved you. Everything after the first year was a mistake." "We can be friends in the future." "If D ends up hating me, too bad." "No amount of therapy will ever help you, it's in your DNA." "I only stayed with you because I couldn't support myself."
I can't. Being a sensitive person isn't helping the situation, but still...how do people survive this? I've started to experience severe anxiety in my sleep when I dream about her. She used to be an angel. Now it feels like she's the angel of death. There's no anger to her voice, but the things she says cut the soul.
Has anyone successfully used medication to stay calm? It's kinda hard to pick kind, supportive words during a conversation when your heart is racing and you feel on edge.
Grabbed some nice flowers for the W, mom-in-law, and D. Well, that'll teach me. Awkward moment when D turned and asked "why doesn't mommy appreciate?" Had to come up with some BS about how she's tired from work. OTOH, maybe not BS. She's working graveyard shift 5 nights a week now. Sometimes I wonder if she's driving herself insane with that kind of schedule--she's starting to remind me about things she never told me (apparently I'm supposed to take D to the shrink with me). Ugh.
E - Why did you buy your W flowers?
E - Why did you buy your W flowers?
I'd say IWD has deeper cultural relevance in the Russian-American community than most others.
Two issues from the past addressed here: refusal to even acknowledge holidays, and cultural rejection. Got flack for both for years, the second of which was on her old list of things I need to seek help for. :P
D was up all night coughing, so instead of waking her up early to take her to the in-laws, I decided to work from home and let her sleep in and have breakfast together. Awesome. So I drop her off mid-day, and a few hours later mom-in-law calls and says D's coughing is out of control, suggests I take her to the doc since I'm home anyway. Not a bad idea...bad reason, but more time together. So I swing by, and guess who's walking D out to the car. Oh my dear W...I love you, but how you make my skin crawl. She's as vicious as ever, and starts telling me how this wasn't her idea and it's all her mom's fault. Then I get drilled about how I'm incompetent for allowing D's coat to be unzipped while walking her to the building (warmest day this year and not a breeze in sight, mind you). I just keep on smiling at her and agreeing away, and that was making her blood boil. She rolls her eyes and storms off. Meanwhile D and I visit the doc and have dinner afterward. NICE!
Therapist says W would really benefit from some professional help and needs someone she respects to nudge her into that direction. Come to think of it, she never really had any respect for anyone, not even her own parents who she claims to love so much. When it comes to major life decisions, she's always done whatever she wants. I guess it's not any different this time. How strange that I never noticed this until forced to take a step back.
W turns 30 in a few hours. Of course no mention of this except from Ace. Apparently she's having a big party and inviting everyone except me. Would be really awesome to get hit by a bus tomorrow...finally, a present she can actually appreciate.
Don't even joke about something like that
I can't keep watching this unfold. W's facebook is plastered with birthday wishes from colleagues and new friends. I'm not really sure what to do because I think it'll ruin her day if I do the same. But how can I not--I've watched her grow up since she was 16. I hear from Ace that W also got a new job, which W didn't bother mentioning to me at all. It seems she's trying not so much to divorce me as to erase my existence from her mind altogether.
I hear from Ace that W also got a new job, which W didn't bother mentioning to me at all. It seems she's trying not so much to divorce me as to erase my existence from her mind altogether.
This is what WAWs do. You need to read up on Sandis LBH thread, many things will resonate with you and it will be very enlightening. All of our situations are balancing acts, the more we put in, the less the other person has to put in. Part of what works about detaching is that we stop putting ourselves and over time we become pursued by the WAW. This takes great effort. It is very difficult. And it doesn't happen overnight.
I'm confident you can do it. You have a whole world of people and knowledge at your fingertips. Your situation isn't all that unique many of us have a WAW to deal with. We are here for you eclipse!
Chilly with a good chance of cold-heartedness.
Sorry to hear that Eclipse. How are you doing?
Thinking about NYC and eclipse. What is the latest?
Thinking about NYC and eclipse. What is the latest?
For what it's worth, I'm still here. Been busy trying to avoid getting fired. Apparently, being in a semi-catatonic state for several months doesn't help to impress a new boss. I've taken up recreational drinking to help dull some of the pain. At the recommendation of my therapist, I started dating other women. This has turned out to be a complete waste of time since I can't feel anything for them anyway. My sister moved in due to a falling out with our mom, so at least I have someone to keep me company. I've been practicing ice skating with my daughter and she's actually getting the hang of it. There was a also this week-long workation in Boston where I realized traveling is awesome, but since I don't have anyone to go with it was quite the pointless realization. Many thoughts and revelations about the wife, but oddly I don't feel like mentioning them right now. Weird, huh?
Thanks for letting us hear from you.
Things have taken a turn for the worst. I doubt I will ever get around to writing up all the details, but I am rapidly running out of options and will likely end up having to permanently leave the country. Looks like not everyone can be saved.
what's going on Eclipse? That post is worrying. Talk to us.
4:30am...can't sleep. A few hours ago my W came over to pick up our D and I had the most painful hour long conversation with her. The few heart-to-hearts about the situation that I've had with her were always a rehash with the same outcome, but something was different about this one. She was calmer, she didn't get defensive, and so we talked to the point where she started laying down on the carpet almost falling asleep. And she was teary. I can't even begin wrapping my head around that. But in the end, she continues to be thoroughly convinced that it's the best choice because we're not right for each other. Or because she's angry at me for the things I said when I was having a hard day. Or because what we had was not a real relationship to begin with. I don't know--she keeps jumping around on her reasoning. Anything to support the decision, really.
what's going on Eclipse? That post is worrying. Talk to us.
Money problems caused by the situation are on the verge on making me insolvent and I can't seem to work it out with the W. I'm not sure if the details really matter, but suffice it to say negotiating and aiming for compromise have been fruitless strategies.
As to what's been going on this whole time...
About a month ago, my W called me while I was with our D. It's strange, but I could tell from her voice what she was about to say. Her mom's cancer has returned (stage 4, no less). She told me she would be needing more help with D because of the strain it would put on her schedule, and at the same time she immediately threw in how it changes nothing between us.
D's 6th birthday was just two weeks ago, and I was kindly disallowed from being at the party. That was really upsetting, especially when I found out that D wanted me there and my W basically laid out an ultimatum of "no dad" or "no party." So much for putting the child's needs first.
As for D and I, we've been ice skating and rollerblading a lot. I've placed her into a gymnastics class for the next few weeks and she's just ecstatic. It's a real joy watching her grow up, but my heart sinks every time she asks why we can't be a family with mommy. How can I possibly explain it to a child when I can't make sense of it myself?
My career is at a breaking point. Forget work--I've lost all interest in software/computers on a personal level. When I thought about what I could do instead, I realized that if I'm stuck in traffic for hours every day, I may as well get paid for it. So right now I'm trying to break into driving with Uber or Lyft. I've actually taken the first step and got my license upgraded to the appropriate class, and even though it's seemingly trivial, I feel like it's somewhat of a victory due to how I usually end up getting stuck at the "dreaming" phase.
Sorry for the disorganized writeup. I am aware that it reads like the incoherent ramblings a mentally deficient 12 year old EMO kid on tumblr, but the thoughts are spinning around in my head like a hurricane and it's hard to pluck them out in a more meaningful order.
There's more, but I can't stay conscious any longer...
Eclipse
Sounds like you have fallen into crisis. Can you get help IRL.
Booze isn't helping you, please stop.
V
Eclipse
Sounds like you have fallen into crisis. Can you get help IRL.
Booze isn't helping you, please stop.
V
Hi Vanilla.
What sort of help are you suggesting? I've been in therapy twice a week since last year. Is there something that can help more? I've been trying to keep busy and trying random new activities, but it doesn't appear to be an effective method to keep the mind from circling right back to the reasons for this busyness. I've rock climbed, bowled, hiked, skied, walked on the beach, went through various calibers at the range, went on dates and to parties, flew in a chopper, etc. Compared to how I was living a year ago, the uptick in actually going out is such that there isn't even a way to compare. What else should I be doing? There are only so many hours in a day.
And you're right that the booze isn't helping. At least, not in any way that improves functioning. It does let me sleep through the night, though. Otherwise I'd have to take meds. Is that any better?
Eclipse
Is this drinking taking over your usual habits? If so its a problem, really it will run you down physically and is linked to depression.
Have you thought about a twelve step programme?
Have you read co-dependent no more and no more Mr nice guy?
I think you may benefit from that.
Your WAW won't want an R with someone who drinks heavily, it's high risk. Indeed why would sensible grounded women want an R with a drinker on a self destruct path.
If your IC isn't a specialist in abuse then find one that is. Your WAW no longer is within your immediate sphere ad you are lost. If IC isn't directive enough then choose another IC, one who is a little tougher and maybe more CBT orientated.
Stopping thinking looped thoughts won't come merely from GAL, your sitch is more complex. You want to change I can see that and change isn't easy.
There are no easy solutions. If I were advising your WAW now, I would say go NC and wait to see if eclipse can change. Oh, yes Ms eclipse he is getting drunk, having a pity for himself, not managing his Fins, and thinking of leaving the country to escape from his debtors? It's a long road home Mrs eclipse look after yourself.
I am thinking of you eclipse when I also say that I think the very poorest outcome for you is if you go R with your WAW.
So why is IC not working for you?
What is the true position on the Fins?
V
Eclipse
How are you today?
V
Eclipse
Is this drinking taking over your usual habits? If so its a problem, really it will run you down physically and is linked to depression.
Have you thought about a twelve step programme?
Have you read co-dependent no more and no more Mr nice guy?
I think you may benefit from that.
Your WAW won't want an R with someone who drinks heavily, it's high risk. Indeed why would sensible grounded women want an R with a drinker on a self destruct path.
I'm just having 1-2 drinks after a long day at work--it doesn't affect my ability to function. Also, since my W doesn't fall into the domain of sensible, grounded women, it will never turn into a problem. I'm just kidding. Or am I? Hmm...
If your IC isn't a specialist in abuse then find one that is. Your WAW no longer is within your immediate sphere ad you are lost. If IC isn't directive enough then choose another IC, one who is a little tougher and maybe more CBT orientated.
Stopping thinking looped thoughts won't come merely from GAL, your sitch is more complex. You want to change I can see that and change isn't easy.
It's hard for me to even take a position on the IC. Part of the problem is that I have a tendency to pick things apart (often reductio ad absurdum) as a means of avoiding doing anything, so it was a major leap of faith to even see an IC at all. Part of how this magic works is by not minding the man behind the curtain, so to say. I am worried if I start fiddling around with the program, it might set me back. OTOH, this guy did tell me to sleep my W's best friend, so maybe some further consideration of a switch is in order--I'll keep it in mind.
BTW, what is it that makes my sitch more complex? I can't see it because I'm at ground zero over here.
There are no easy solutions. If I were advising your WAW now, I would say go NC and wait to see if eclipse can change. Oh, yes Ms eclipse he is getting drunk, having a pity for himself, not managing his Fins, and thinking of leaving the country to escape from his debtors? It's a long road home Mrs eclipse look after yourself.
I am thinking of you eclipse when I also say that I think the very poorest outcome for you is if you go R with your WAW.
So why is IC not working for you?
It may be the poorest outcome for me if I go R with my WAW at
any point. Her repeat assessment of our relationship breakdown is that we are incompatible because both she and I are negative, depression-prone people. And however true the proneness may be, I have no intention of letting that be the end of it. Meanwhile, she is sticking with her solution of giving into this natural disposition and put the burden of bringing positivity to the relationship on someone else.
What is the true position on the Fins?
V
The Fins are *ucked. I paid for most of her college debt, and it turns that up until two months ago, the payments were still being taken out of our joint account (to which only I am contributing now). Some of the bills for her new apartment are still being taken from there as well. She asks for a lot of money for "child support" (I put the in quotes because there isn't even any paperwork), and she was very mad when I asked her for an explanation of where it's going. When she did finally offer to explain the breakdown, what it came down to was that I am paying 100% of the expenses for D, even though I spend 2-3 days a week with her and then pay for various skill development programs and hobbies on top of that. The only explanation I got for the several hundred dollars a month which she couldn't account for was that she's with her (a.k.a. she lets her mom watch her to clear the schedule for dates) more often. I didn't know spending your free time with your own child is a job.
Also, some of my ongoing financial commitments were made
prior to the W leaving and are obviously not suitable for my current sitch. On top of that, she doesn't have her own medical insurance, so that's another couple hundred dollars every month. I'm looking at these statements and let's just say it's not a pretty picture. At the current rate, I will go broke within half a year.
Eclipse,
It is time to act. What can you do?
How about opening a new account and setting up a new budget for yourself?
Eclipse
Some extreme self care is called for, eating well, no booze, sleep and if necessary ADs.
Putting it back together is going to be a choice you can make, and only you can do that.
And kindness for yourself too. You have a D in your life a precious child to think of.
I want to both boot your ass and give you a hug too. It's you I care about and your D.
V
Eclipse,
It is time to act. What can you do?
How about opening a new account and setting up a new budget for yourself?
My thoughts exactly. Already set up in Mint, just need to open an account.
Eclipse
Some extreme self care is called for, eating well, no booze, sleep and if necessary ADs.
Putting it back together is going to be a choice you can make, and only you can do that.
And kindness for yourself too. You have a D in your life a precious child to think of.
I want to both boot your ass and give you a hug too. It's you I care about and your D.
V
Thank you. Unfortunately, I don't know what "AD" is. I am trying something very new for myself by pursuing a silly childhood fantasy--more to come as it develops.
BTW, I realize that I've been sparse with my posts, and a lot happens in between them...especially with the W. There's been a significant uptick in our communication (initiated by her). She's taken a short stroll with me and D the other day. Also, she's mentioned that she will be eligible for health insurance from her employer soon, and that she is considering bringing me on board for that in order for all of us to save money (it's dirt cheap thanks to union). Oh, and I hear rumors that she is reconsidering her position on the divorce.
Antidepressants I believe. Exercise is also excellent for this as it creates it's own natural effect after 30 minutes.
Well, that was interesting. So I signed up for a sports training program, and it starts tomorrow. Just got a call from the W asking me to pick up D from camp tomorrow because she has to work. When I told her that I can't because I already enrolled and had no idea, she nearly blew a gasket. Apparently I'm supposed to just be available any time she needs my help because her work schedule isn't fixed. I did promise to help out more with D because mother in law has cancer and can't do much, but why does this imply that I'm not allowed to have a life at all? And even when I said I would come up with something and call her back a bit later, she still sounded pissed. WTH?
Of course she would be pissed. Why didn't you just expect that. She will only see her perspective she doesn't give two shits about yours. It doesn't matter that it is last minute. You are inconveniencing her.
Start developing better validation techniques to defuse those situations.
I was going to take D on a little out-of-state trip during the two weeks in between her camp and the upcoming school year. When I told the W last week, she said she would also like to take her somewhere. I didn't think anything of it at the moment.
So today, she sends me a text mid-day asking if I had some time to spare so she could tell me something. I agree, but feel nauseated by the possibility that it would be about the divorce again. Lowe and behold: she wants me to join her on the trip she was planning. Of course she very clearly threw in that it's not meant to be a romantic getaway, but I figured why not--sounds fun either way, so I casually agreed and said I'll talk to the boss about taking some time off. Let's see where this goes.
Backlog: two days ago
To plan our upcoming trip, the W invited me over to her place for the very first time. She must've been particularly upbeat that day because she asked if D and I were hungry and suggested we order an old family favorite for dinner. The restaurant messed up our order, but instead of getting pissed as in the past, I just went back and had it replaced. Nice. W decided to give me a tour of the place...looks nice, I can see where that child support money went. She seems rather pleased with herself, probably fishing for a compliment on her eye for aesthetic, so I gave it to her. After we eat, we get down to business planning the trip. All of a sudden, as we're browsing around on her fancy new laptop, she blurts out "so, are you still okay with having an open marriage, because that's pretty much what we have now." I felt really uncomfortable, so was trying to think of something to say when she follows up with a story about how one of her recent dates took her to see some fancy performing arts show and how nice it is to have the guy pay for her. I'd ask why this needs to be inserted, but ahead of any such concern I remember how she would frequently chastise her own BFF for using men to pay for expensive dates (hypocrisy much?). At some point she mentions how she dropped out of therapy a while ago but needs to go back to get hooked up with Paxil.
After we finish booking, the W had to run off to work, and as I'm tying my shoes, she again asks if I like the place and then mentions that if "somehow" things would work out between us, maybe I could move in with her (she knows I've been looking for an apartment). I thank her for the offer and off I go with D.
Well, W finally confessed to having an affair. I'll detail the specifics of how we got to this later, but that's not the important thing right now. There is something very wrong with her. She's talking about trying to fix the relationship, but it's very mechanical the way she talks about it. Her mood varies a lot, but only between neutral and depressed. She says she understands why I acted the way I did, but then switches to blaming me once again. She alternates between how I've done a great job turning things around and taking credit for all the positive changes (it's all thanks to her leaving). There's a lot of swaying back and forth, and from what I've read in the affair boards it kinda sounds like she's still at it. But I don't think that's what's going on here. My entire life I've always had very weak intuition and was poor at reading people, but I have this deep, sickening negative feeling from talking with my W right now and I know in my gut something is horribly wrong...much worse than just an affair.
Eclipse,
Keep us posted. This could be a turning point in your story. Her suggestions make me believe she wants to turn it around. But realize this progression has been seen by others on the board. The spew is still running validate and go slow and she may come around to some remorse. Validate and STFU.
Good luck.
I haven't been able to work ever since W told me slept around. It's just constant anxiety and a feeling of disgust. I've managed to block it out for the most part, but the images creep in sometimes, and I feel sick to my stomach. First migraine today in over half a year.
So W and I had breakfast the other day. She was acting really sweet and said she's not afraid to touch me anymore...even gave me a small hug. It felt so strange--there was warmth, like a sense of belonging, but at the same time pain and distance. We ate in the car and talked. Some of the things she said were weird though...
She hated how I used to work so much, but now when I tell her I want to cut back to make room in my life for friends/family, she seems vehemently opposed and says everyone must work hard because that's how life is. 180. She said she made a mistake in telling me to reconnect with my mom and sister and that she doesn't like or trust them and I shouldn't either. 180. She says we should get a babysitter to watch D so we can run off and spend lots of time together. 180. What is going on? I feel like she's trying to recreate the life she ran away from. Then she told me about some happiness group we should attend on the weekends. Huh? She's mapping out our time already? How did she flip so quickly??
I feel so lost and confused, mentally and emotionally. IC isn't helping with that at this point. Did I mention the W thinks we need a marriage counselor?
Eclipse
I can't get the measure of WW at all. It's very backwards. It's like she is 'leading' taking charge and frankly that should be you.
I sense as you do that there is something in the background. Let it unfold in time and hold back and observe. I am unsure but it could be a number of things and a couple of my thoughts I hold as they are very difficult thoughts to express.
I am not sure about the going away part with WW as I am unsure it's too soon and you aren't as strong as I think you could be. I have a niggle about it.
V
Oh dear Cadet another double negative!
Should read:
I am unsure. It could be a number of things. I am keep my thoughts as yet I have no explanations that I understand. Some of my thoughts are difficult to express and I am uncomfortable.
Apologies eclipse, perhaps Sandi or Wonka can help on this.
V
Wow eclipse, that is strange behavior. I cant really get a reading on what shes doing either but just let it play out and see where it goes. Its really hard to say right but time will tell. Good luck.
W is coming along to D's gymnastics class for the first time today. I invited her to play mini-golf nearby since she previously said she's into that--seems like a nice family activity. I'm feeling a lot of anxiety because I'm not sure what to talk about since she hasn't been doing much this past year except searching for my replacement. I don't want the conversation to be one-sided either. Maybe I can ask her thoughts about finding an MC...
I don't think you need to talk. Let her lead, it seems as if she is already. While she is leading validate and try to have fun. Just focus on having fun.
Well, I think we had fun. I know I did. D flipped out because she wasn't getting it, W seemed unusually good at it and she said it's because she went on so many mini-golf dates. Speaking of which, she seemed to perk up particularly when she talked about her last date (she said she broke it off abruptly)...it was annoying, but I let her speak without judgement. Anyway, I noticed she gets bored and distant a lot, and I find this particularly worrisome. More than one outside observer has repeatedly told me that it seems that my depression is actually a consequence of being around her, and I'm starting to feel that this really may be the case. Coupled with a recent revelation that she projects a lot, I am afraid to end up in the same situation down the road. It's not that I don't want to put in the effort, but even though I can turn my own situation around and become a happier person, I don't think I can hold up both of us. She's quit her IC several times in the last few years, and MC once, so I'm not really sure where it will go this time. She continues to keep saying "if we get back together," and I don't know what she's looking for to make that happen at this point. Hell, I'm starting to wonder if she knows herself.
Eclipse,
Remember the100% rule? I am confused and I am reading what you are posting.
There doesn't seem to be any remorse for her actions, that bothers me a great deal. If this were my own sitch I would refer to this as 'hoovering'.
I have red warning flags but I haven't ever been in piecing.
V
At this point, no, I do not. Remind me please?
There doesn't seem to be any remorse for her actions, that bothers me a great deal.
No, there is no remorse. In fact, the first time I called her after that outing where she admitted sleeping around and I asked to speak with her in person, she immediately became defensive about it and said she won't apologize, she's not sorry for any of it because she was planning on leaving and needed to resort to such measures to get over me and save herself (I didn't even get to tell her why I wanted to see her).
She blames me completely. Apparently my depression is my fault because I "chose" to be in that frame of mind by not listening to her for years and intentionally avoiding getting help. The unplanned pregnancy and entire cascade of events (money problems, isolation, frustration) which resulted in me sinking to such a low state is my fault because I didn't use a condom and she warned me that if she ever got pregnant, she's keeping the child (she repeated this so many times over the years that I'm questioning my own memory of whether this is so). Also, when I pointed out that D is suffering because of what she is doing, the first thing I was told post-denial was that I should just take D with me to IC.
I would also like to add that she mentioned she's somewhat afraid to come back because she thinks I'll lash out at her at some point in the future for her infidelity. But again, no remorse that it happened...it was all justified. There was a time when I thought maybe she doesn't understand that her actions cause others to feel pain. But she clearly does, and she's only concerned how it will affect
her (interesting example is how her story has changed from being afraid that I would commit suicide to being afraid that I would hit her). Anyone who indicates that they are hurting because of anything related to her decisions needs to be "fixed" by going to therapy.
I present the list of reasons she gave for considering coming back:
- our D, because she's drawing pictures of mommy and daddy holding hands
- I've been diligent about IC, so she doesn't want that to go to waste
- even the older guys she's gone out with don't seem interested/ready to lead family life
- we've been together for so long and it's hard to just throw that away
But "it's
not because she loves me or anything like that."
If this were my own sitch I would refer to this as 'hoovering'.
What is hoovering?
I have red warning flags but I haven't ever been in piecing.
Care to share what those red flags might be? Also, is this really the "piecing" stage?
100% is on Sandis list of 37 guidelines,it's no 32. It's been reduced to disbelieve 100% of what they say and 50% of what they do.
Hold this list dear to your chest, I had this laminated!
Sandi 37 guidelinesMy lovely she is rationalising as well as justifying her actions and blaming you. Usually what she says is also a projection, "lashing out" and is likely to be the reverse, in other words it's what she thinks she is likely to do.
Hoovering is the action an abuser like my WH does in order to persuade me back into R for his benefit, not mine. To take me through another cycle of abuse.
I don't think WW is inviting you to piece, she has no remorse. She is coming on strong with you though. This concerns me as it sounds like she is setting the scene for blame.
So red flags for me :
No remorse by WW
Negative comments about you, lashing out
Blaming you for pregnancy
blaming you for everything
Blaming you......
There was another poster her called Mustardseed who was in a similar sitch with her WH. I don't know why but this has the same 'feel'. I can't quite put my finger on it.
I will find the links for you Z and I put a thread together on abuse as a starter and it has some definitions etc on page 8 and 9.
abuse starter kitV
Mustard seeds denouement read from here:
concerns about mustardseedV
Thanks, V...I will be reading those over carefully.
On a whim, I had dinner with Ace after skate practice tonight. We talked about things and it's starting to look like the PA is/was actually recent (around last month) rather than way back when she left. Weird?? Why did she run back to me so abruptly? Don't affairs usually go on for months, if not years?
Affairs come in all shapes and sizes, and this may not be the first, sadly this may be the case with a wayward, I found my WH felt entitled enough to be on dating sites throughout our R, even as we were getting married..
I am struggling with your WW behaviour, it makes no sense to me, but then the WW mind is almost unfathomable. So 100% of what they say and 50% of what they do.
No doubt it will unfold.
Concentrate on you, there is nothing you can do about WW thoughts or actions other than observe. You are the one here, you are the one I am concerned about.
You are the one DB and you are the one ho is going to be the most stable for your D. Just a gentle warning keep any personal details like names etc, very private. If you slip as I have the mods will amend for you by using the report button add making a request.
Keep posting I will check in with you today.
(((((((((Hugs))))))))
V
"Ace" is a pseudonym--I'm a fool, but not that much of one.
I don't really have much to report. Read halfway through Chapman's "Love Languages." Been talking to W over SMS, sometimes by phone. She makes sure to always thank me for any little thing I do (like drive her to work), but I find it annoying because it seems so unnatural and unnecessary. She asked about MC again, suggested we just go to my IC since I'm already there. I explained that we should try to look for the best option available instead of the most convenient one. She thinks it doesn't really matter since we're the ones who will have to do most of the work anyway, but I pushed back and asked to continue the convo later.
Been working out like crazy in preparation for our upcoming beach resort trip, wanted to give the W something to lust over. How ridiculous. I neither feel love for her nor do I even find her attractive. Hell, after she came clean, I don't find anyone attractive anymore--it's like something inside just broke. Yes, in her mind, our R didn't exist anymore, I get that. But, I fail to see what purpose confessing serves since she knew I didn't feel the same way. What was the point? What was there to gain??
Please start a new thread