Last Thread Let's see if this thread can be peaceful.
In my last thread... I discovered the full extent of my W's A. The OM stays in the suburbs and my W meets with him weekly and spends nights at his apartment. She lied to me and my S11 to our faces as she walked out the door each time. I confronted her on this today and told her I was moving with S11 to a condo without her. I got angry doing this. I am waiting to see what she tries to do about keeping us in this house for Christmas and about sharing the car. I also have to get back to work and GALing and enjoying life.
My last post asked this question...
Oh... forgot to ask... what about Christmas? I don't think I should do it as W wants but it sounds like more punishment. Then again... that's what I said I would do and we'll have a great time without her. Just looking for opinions. Thank you.
HP, I'm sorry I don't remember this, but is your wife your son's mother? Your signature doesn't say otherwise, but you always refer to him as "my son" and she calls him "your son."
Again, sorry if I missed all that.
As for Christmas, your marker should be very simple: do what is best for your son, while maintaining your own core boundaries. When in doubt, err on the side of doing what's best for your son.
Starsky
Wow--HP, I am impressed.
Sure, you departed from the "script" to some degree (heck, I've even written stuff on my hand and couldn't even remember to look at it!), but OVERALL, you kept your cool and made your point.
You showed strength and grace... well done.
Please don't pick apart your performance, giving each imperfect word said or perfect word left unsaid so much weight.
There is no one thing you can do or say that will make or break your M.
No matter which unfortunate choice of words our WAS want to throw in our faces down the road, it's not how they make it out to be. They're just looking for fuel for their bonfire of our bones.
For example, when he became a cheating spouse, GUBU actually brought up the funny "come-on" comment I made after our first kiss---almost thirty years ago!!!
I said---"Mmmmmm... you can do better than
that.... (invitation!!!)"
He reinterpreted that during his affair, threw it back in my face as "proof" that from the very beginning I was "critical" of him and how we had no "chemistry'.
Of course, the fact that he continued to court me, date me, live with me, and eventually marry me and stay married for 23 years sort of negate how UPSET he was about that TERRIBLE, HEARTLESS BLOW I dealt to him... you'd think so, anyway!
So don't pay much attention to how she'll bluster---THAR SHE BLOWS!!!!
Ignore...ignore...ignore.
You are correct. YOU are not "ruining Christmas" by moving on and focusing on you and your son. SHE is the one who wants to play a fun game of "Let's pretend everything is just peachy and Mommy isn't doing anything wrong."
A nice glass of eggnog spiced with a bit of REALITY would be appropriate on Christmas.
I'm glad you've decided not to "out" her to her family, especially over the holidays. (That IS what you've decided, right?)
Anyhow... Good job.
--(G)GGG
PS: There he is again ^^^^. You are very lucky to have the likes of Mr. Starsky in your corner.
(Santa might be distributing several more pairs of "Male Power" underwear for all concerned. Because we don't want Jim to be the only one sporting these eye-catching things. They sure catch the eye of WAW when being hand-washed and pinned up on the clothesline.
)
And like magic, here appears Ms Sandi below....vvvvv. Perfect feedback!
Anyway... then came a lot of calls that I didn't answer. Then texts like this... "Please don't let this ruin Christmas for s11. We can figure it out. Please HP. I am begging you. Please."
Whether this Christmas or the next one, that is all part of being S/D. There's no more shared holidays like one big happy family. But she will try to turn this around and make you out to be the bad guy who ruined Christmas. (Which can hardly compare to the woman who betrayed her family and had an A.......but maybe that line of thought is score keeping.) But anyway, that is only one day out of the year. Your son knows who was with him the
previous days throughout the year.
She makes it sounds as if it is for the boy, but I have to wonder if she's not trying to buy a little time, IDK. I don't mean time to work on the M, but to do whatever she thinks is best for
her. After all, he practically begged her to spend some time with him and she walked out, so this isn't so much about "his" Christmas for her. I think there may be something else. And now, she is begging you.....and even went as far to say she will do anything you want afterwards? Sounds pretty desperate to me. But why?
My first thoughts are that she has something planned for/with OM, but why she wants you to stick around till after Christmas, IDK. For some reason, this upsets her plans and she needs for things to remain the same till after Christmas. Anyway, I just have a hard time believing it is anything selfless.
I think your son has already figured it out. He knows what is going on. Have you thought about how angry he may be at all the lies told to him? Would it be a
gift to him to have one more Christmas together, or would it mean more pretense? Maybe you should ask him what
he wants.
I have another question, since she talks so concerned about not ruining son's Christmas. Did she say anything about you not taking son with you to move to the condo, or that she would have him at least 50% of the time? Strange that a mother would not
fight to keep her child......but if she's a WAW in an A, it happens. There have been several cases where the mother will leave the children.
BTW, one reason we tell Newcomers right up front to protect themselves financially is b/c a WAW
will take the family income and leave the account balance practically empty. Never think she won't stoop to it. She is going to look out for number one.
HP,
Sandi is probably spot on about the reasons behind W's frantic texting and calls. You've upended her plans with the OM. I'd suggest that you stick with your plan and move out with your S11.
Your W wants to keep you for the financial security and playing "happy" families while seeing OM. Your move has really turned over the apple cart big time for her. I am not surprised at her reaction. Predictable. She needs to feel the loss of you, S11 and all the family unit. It will be a while before it starts to sink in her head.
I'm thinking about Christmas. It is a fine balance between giving S11 what he wants and not keeping up with the pretense.
To be fair to S11, I think it is time for you to sit down and have an age-appropriate talk with him. Stress that his mom loves him. However, Mommy and Daddy need a break for a while. And tell him about the move to the condo in a week's time or so. That will give S11 time to process this information and adjust to this new "reality."
In looking back at my parents' divorce when I was 11, I remember spending the first Christmas with my stepmother and her family. I probably saw my father at one point after the holidays and we celebrated. Yeah, I was sad. But got through the holiday and many more like that.
I don't think it will hurt to ask about S11's wishes for Christmas. Be sure to tell him that there's no guarantee. You do want to hear him out.
Then we can support you in figuring out the next steps. I am so sorry that you're in this mess and the holidays are just around the corner.
By the way, about the rings. My H took his off during his A, wasn't a red flag because we both work with our hands and it wasn't unusual to be with or without.
After OW discovery, he
promised he would wear it. And did. For awhile. I noticed for the first time that he was NOT wearing it when we were at a function when I met OW. (And that went well for me in that she was a pig and I looked stunning...among other things.
)
To say that I "lost it" after seeing his naked hand at the event is an understatement!
I almost threw my wedding ring out the car window, instead I threw in on the floor in his truck. I retrieved it later.
Seeing his naked hand is still a trigger for me. I try not to look. Or I imagine that ring through his nose...
Anyhow, I told him how hurt I was that he'd taken his off, and chosen THAT day to do so, as if it was a show of his support of OW and a negation of me.
He said, no, he'd taken off a few days earlier and was "waiting for me to notice".
WTF? Waiting for this passive-aggressive "gotcha" to take effect?
Later the next day, I told him I didn't care if he wore it or not. I got an email from him saying that it wasn't about the ring, that he wanted a divorce.
AN EMAIL!
22 years and I get a (misspelled, grammatically awful) brief email, all about "poor H, I'm so broken, so sorry, I'll die alone..." blech!
A few days later--he was still living here---he started talking about "other people" and "dating" and I made my position clear, that I was married until I wasn't.
Soon after that I decided that--for me---my wearing of my ring was creating pressure for him. So I told him I was taking it off and was going to get a substitute to wear. Because the rings that we got were no longer symbolic of our R, but I wasn't exactly single, and that I didn't want guys to get the impression that I was available.
So I had a really nice ring made for MYSELF and planned to wear it on my wedding ring finger. However, by the time the ring arrived, I'd lost so much weight that it was falling off. Cue cheap dimestore ring that I wore for a few more months, until I got fed up with his chit and took THAT off too.
He noticed this when we were meeting to refinance our house (together!) and I saw him staring at my hand. That was the start of a few weeks of some nasty spewing from him.
You know---I was hurting HIM by taking off my wedding ring, dontcha know?
If I didn't just write that, I wouldn't believe it myself...
So don't read anything into the ring thing.
Expect some passive-aggression from her, taking them off, treating them like nothing... it's her trying to send a message to you or manipulate you.
Ignore... ignore... ignore.
Makes me think we should start writing a DBers Christmas song!
---(G)GGG
HP,
you really did fine. No need to pick the speech apart any further... Just be aware, there will be a lot of tricks played on you.
You owe yourself a pat on the back and you owe your son to be the world's greatest dad.
I don't think it will hurt to ask about S11's wishes for Christmas. Be sure to tell him that there's no guarantee.
I agree, (and meant to bring that point in my last post). You do need to have a man to little man talk and tell him about the move. I'm not sure how much you should reveal during this first conversation, b/c he's having to take in a lot. I think Wonka's suggestion would be the best way to go. If he starts asking questions, and I think he will, maybe you need to know now how you'll handle it. I just hope you can give him a fair answer without him feeling he doesn't matter. (You know how kids minds work.)
I know you can't let your S call the shots to an adult decision, but you can ask him, and listen, unless.....you know you won't take it into consideration.
Not fun stuff, is it?
My WAW and I just had the discussion with our S9 about Christmas. (I told her that I didn't want to share Christmas, that I would get Christmas Eve, and she could get Christmas Day). We put our own differences aside, and communicated that we are building different households now, and that I am really excited that he can spend Christmas Day with her, and she was really excited that he could spend Christmas Eve with me.
At the end of the day, we all have to put our kids first
Last night as the worst night of my life.
I've absorbed a lot of sadness on reading about the good people this site. A lot of pain I would have never believed happens in the everyday world world. It prepared me for last night... but just barely.
W came home. S11 was in his room.
Immediately W started talking about "you can take my child from this home." Got a little frantic. Started talking about going to family court in the morning.
I was calm and prepared. Said... "Of course go ahead. I've already seen a lawyer and I'm aware of what's allowed."
This caught her very off guard. She got a little more frantic. Tried again and I walked away from her.
She looked very down. She went to take a shower.
When she came out without her make-up, she looked terribly old and tired. She was also wearing her wedding ring.
She apologized for talking about going to court. I reminded her that I want s11 to see and love his mom. That she could schedule time with him and I would accommodate as much as possible. She said she was afraid I was taking s11 away. She said she doesn't feel like a good mom and sometimes feels s11 would be better off with just me not her.
I remember here getting critical of her choices using "did you put yourself in S11's shoes" while reaching for your dreams as she was trying to blame me for ruining Christmas, disrupting his school year, and enflaming his anxiety. Every time she blamed me, I simply reminded her that all this happening now was her choice. This affected her. She got up and walked out the bedroom.
Then the evening got horrible.
She called s11. Kneeled down on front of him and looked him in the eyes and said... "Don't worry. Mom will try. I'll be a good mom and a good wife and we'll be a family." Something like that. A promise to our son. I did not expect it.
S11 walked away to the kitchen. She slumped on the couch. I said to her... "did you just hear what you said? What are you doing?"
"I don't know. I want to be a good wife and a good mom. To stop lying."
I went to s11 and play with sparklers. She went upstairs to the bedroom. After a while... s11 went to check on her.
In my few minutes alone... I made a mistake. I again hoped this offer from her was real. I cried and prayed to God to give this one thing to me. To let her promise TO OUR SON to be real. It would have to be... how could she look in his eyes and say that to him without it being real. This was her baby.
I started making dinner. W and s11 came downstairs. She sat down at the kitchen table and said... "now can we have Christmas here?"
s11 went back outside.
I looked at her and knew what I already knew. This miserable woman in front of me was a stranger. A dangerous stranger.
Our conversation went something like this...
I asked her if she remembered what she PROMISED to our son. She said yes and then laughed something about how she'd had a drink. I saw then that she had a drink in her hand. She had made one for herself while I was outside.
I said, "and you're 100% committed to what you said? You'll do what it takes?"
She said shrank like a little girl in trouble and said yes.
I knew it was hopeless but decided to push on... just so she would be clear about what it would take for her to even be considered to get back into our family.
I said... "this is going to be hard and take a long time."
"I know."
"To help me, to build trust, this is what I need. Write an email to OM saying you will never be contact again. CC me on the email."
She's still calm but I see it starting to change into what I expect....
"That will take a conversation."
"No. That will happen tonight."
"Why? What's changed?"
"2 months have changed. I gave you 2 months to end this. Now we're here. Remember what you just said?"
She's starting to shiver.
"what else?"
"you have a password on your phone? Please give it to me. And for your computer and email accounts. To build trust."
She heard me say this and absorbed it. I could see she understood. she said "ok." Then "I don't know if I can do that." Or something like that.
It came down to me calmly saying "OK then no we're moving without you and no we're not having Christmas here."
And she lost it.
Screaming at me. Calling me coward. Cursing me. Bringing up when I forgot our anniversary. Blaming me for not calling the MC (b/c she was in her A). Blaming me for ruining S11's school year, holidays, and life.
She was sitting walking up and down the stairs screaming at me. I stood in the middle of the room, hands behind my back, listening with a "i'm a little tired of this" look on my face. Not arguing at all... just validating what she screamed.
Then I said... "sorry you feel that way."
And she got worse. Threats again of lawyers. Everything she just said even louder. By now she is sobbing and breaking down from angry to defeated and miserable again.
Then the worst...
I can't remember how this happened... but she got S11, sat him down on he couch...
AND TOOK BACK HER PROMISE
She cried and said something like... " I know what I said and I was wrong to say it. I can't do it. sometimes adults have to separate to figure things out. daddy and I will figure things out. I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm so sorry."
I held s11 and then got him away. We played video games. I asked him if he's ok and he is laughing and smiling yes. I feel hate for my W.
I see her in the kitchen. She is pouring herself another drink. I go and warmly say, you shouldn't have another one. I take it. She goes upstairs.
The rest of the evening was more of the same. She came back downstairs and made herself another drink. I followed her upstairs. SHe was lying prone on the bed. She said "Don't take my drink." I said, "One day, I hope you will thank me for this." I took it and left.
I drank both of her drinks.
She came out acting normal again and help S11 to bed.
We talked more. I was calm and firm and very critical of what she did to S11. I let the hammer fall on her and everything came out.
She felt trapped and scared and that's why she took back the promise.
She denied again and again and then said yes her an OM were physical.
Said she was upset I haven't been talking to her. That OM talks to her.
I let her know she gave herself away by posting FB posts from OM place. The posts showed her location. (I had only saw that by chance an hour before.)
I used a lot of the words and sentiments here and on her letters to OM to explain how I saw her actions as fantasy mess and destructive.
All the while she never looked at me. She said she couldn't b/c she was so ashamed. I don't believe her.
She said a lot of things about her therapy and choices again in ways that took no responsibility for anything. Like all this was just happening to her but she tried her best to not hurt anyone and she meant none of this to happen. I don't believe her.
She talked about waking up today and finding out she was homeless. She cried for more time. She said she could not get a car... she had just been promoted and needed a car to not mess up her job. She said she could not find a place in a month and didn't wan to get S11 and have him sleep on someone's couch. I said we're separated. You'll figure it out.
She asked me again if we would have Christmas in the house. I said no.
By this time she said she won't fight me. ( I don't believe her.) She knew I would give s11 a great christmas. she asked if we would have a tree in the condo and I said yes. She asked if she could come by the condo. I said no. She asked if she could come by to help set up s11s room . I may have said maybe. I may not now.
I closed with basically... "I will be civil and co-parent with you. Only text me on S11 and financial items. Other than that... I don't want to know you."
I said everything warmly and lovingly. I don't regret anything I said.
...
My W has serious issues. She said multiple lies last night. Lied in the worst way to S11 and put him to bed like nothing happened. Was frantic and screaming and cursing and threatening.
I told her I did not know her anymore. I told her I hope her therapy can help her. I told her I hope she doesn't get hurt.
And I told her I'm going to bed. Please turn off the light. She did and she left.
...
This morning I pulled all the way back. After shower came out. She said "good morning." I smiled and said "yes."
Stayed friendly but stayed away from her. She initiated with me and I gave the shortest friendly answers possible.
When she left she said "I'll be back."
She called and texted me a few times. I didn't respond.
When she did come back, I was walking out the door to the coffee shop. She said I didn't have to go. She would be gone soon to look at apartments. I said I was walking out anyway. She repeated things she already texted me. She was starting a tear up. I warmly said "ok thanks!" and left.
...
I was reading about narcissistic behavior. A lot of that seemed to match how shes' been behaving. MLC too. It's interesting to know what to expect (for example... next she may discredit me with her friends and family).
In any case... the woman I saw last night I don't want anything to do with. I'm empathetic and want her to be OK. I told her so. But I got the sense through that all she was doing was trying to get control over me again. I won't be part of her drama now. I realize I was so calm later last night b/c I drank her drinks. This morning I felt that sick debilitating feeling again. I can't imagine what s11 is really feeling.
I'll get IC for the 2 of us.
...
She'll be around for a few more days. She offered to leave last night... now she needs time to get her stuff together. She offered to give me the car keys and be in he house as little as possible so me and s11 can stay longer. I'm still working to leave next weekend.
Me and s11 deserve better. I told her that too. I don't think she cares.
Oh... I know this is not DB... I still told her never to have OM around my son. She said "I would never do that." I said... "I don't know what you would do anymore."
HP,
Wow. A lot went down last night and this morning. What's done is done.
Only you can focus on the present and move forward with your plans. Please be careful that your actions are not punitive to W. Give those feelings the stiff arm because you really want to act with grace, dignity and class throughout this process. I am not saying that you haven't or didn't. You have.
Just wanted to give you this gentle reminder to stay the course.
A word to the wise about your comments:
I was reading about narcissistic behavior. A lot of that seemed to match how shes' been behaving. MLC too. It's interesting to know what to expect (for example... next she may discredit me with her friends and family).
No. This is not true at all. You're reading into stuff that isn't there.
Right now, your W is in a A fog and not thinking clearly. Drinking and acting erratically is her responsibility. You cannot rescue her (or try to fix) from all of this. As long as her actions pose no danger to S11, then you cannot intervene. Otherwise how would W be able to learn the consequences for herself without your interference?
I looked at her and knew what I already knew. This miserable woman in front of me was a stranger. A dangerous stranger.
Our conversation went something like this...
I asked her if she remembered what she PROMISED to our son. She said yes and then laughed something about how she'd had a drink. I saw then that she had a drink in her hand. She had made one for herself while I was outside.
I said, "and you're 100% committed to what you said? You'll do what it takes?"
You jumped the gun here with that ^^. It has to COME FROM W, not you. She needs to be the one to "do whatever it takes" and she's not at that place yet. Obviously.
In my few minutes alone... I made a mistake. I again hoped this offer from her was real. I cried and prayed to God to give this one thing to me. To let her promise TO OUR SON to be real. It would have to be... how could she look in his eyes and say that to him without it being real. This was her baby.
You did really good until that point...then you became a Wet Noodle and got weak like nearly very LBH when the W used her female wiles to get you to soften up. Time and time again...this is the world's oldest trick.
I hope you will be more attentive for those types of gimmicks from W and stave them off with your Clint Eastwood stance.
I am saying all of that ^^ like a football coach reviews game tapes after each football game. Hey, I am Coach Billichick!
All in all, I will give you a B for the interaction. You would have received an A if you did not have your Wet Noodle moment.
Well done. Now onward to the condo move.
And it continues with a text... "I am going to do whatever you want. I have been incredibly awful to you and s11. I am going to go whenever you tell me to and do everything to make your move peaceful. I understand. You're right. It's about you and s11 and what's best for you. I have done an awful thing and it's unforgivable."
I don't know about the save the M train for now.
The good quality woman I know is in there. I miss her. Even so, I have little faith she'll ever come back to me and s11.
This morning she was acting so normal. S11 asked her for money. She cheerfully says... "well I put you through so much last night I should give you some." I choked on my cereal.
I know for the next 6 months of my life I'll be living in the condo with s11. Going absolute NC with W except on s11. I'll join a nearby gym. I'll have money for the babysitter and more GAL. I'll go to IC and really work to keep PMA. I'll get dancing lessons. Maybe join a casual sports league. Maybe find a circle of men friends.
I will block W fb page. I don't want to know anything. I want to forget her face and voice and actions as much as I can. Just a few more days to go.
I don't trust her. I asked her to account for the $1000 she removed in the last five days. She immediately went to making a written list. I said that doesn't help me. Let me see the bank statement. She said she would. She won't I saw she was making a $400 downpayment on something labeled "implant." I won't be snooping anymore b/c now I don't care.
All the above is nice. The beginning of a nice life. I don't want anything worse to happen. Sitting here... I'm afraid it will.
HP,
Would it be possible for you to live in the condo longer than 6 months? I am curious about the "6 month" time period. How did you come up with that number?
About the money. Is it from W's account or from joint account?
Yes I believe I could live in the condo all year. Next school year, though, I want to be a another place. Hopefully Florida where I have family and friends and S11 has cousins and people who care about him. That is a place W and I have discussed. At the beginning of this sitch... she was even talking about us all living in Florida with s11. That's far from her first choice. But her thinking at the time was to give me what I want enough for me to be fine with her plans.
For example... when she was looking for a used car to buy, she was looking at Cadillacs for me. Always asking me about apartments I would like to live in. The idea, I think, was when she announced her OM, I would be so happy to accept it b/c she made a life for me w/o her that I would like. Her fantasy. She even talked about her fantasy of how this would all work out last night. And how horribly she failed at every turn. Her self-esteem can be bad and it took a hit with this.
Yes, the money was from our joint account. Bill paying money. That's why I asked about it. She said she would pay it back. We'll see.
And yes I recognized my wet noodle mistake as I was making it. It did not, though, break my resolve and I was firm with her on the "back in the family" boundary which lead to her spew. The mistake, though, did mess with my mind and made me angrier later. I see I can't allow that.
Personal questions... You're all my closest allies on my life battle now and I really value your opinion. I know I asked this before... but now she's acting worse than ever. After the promise to s11 and her drinking and erraticness... is our M even savable? Would she ever turn back to me and s11 given all she's done? I was so surprised about her promise. S11 was her world... she was even saying that last night even given the things she's done. How can she say he's her priority?
And yes... I'll wait for her to make an effort on the M. The better response last night then should have been... "What do you plan to do then?" instead of telling her my transparency need.
Thank you again for everything.
HP,
I am going to let Starsky and Bond answer your question about the M being salvageble after all she's done to you and S11. They've been through what you're going through right now and have come out to the other side with a reconciled M's.
I am going to sit back and wait for their posts. Especially Starsky...his W even got implants while in her A.
Entertaining indeed.
I think you did a great job, HP. I know it took so much for you to get to that place. I am most proud of you for not falling for her promises. Even when she said she would do what it takes.....she didn't really mean it. Now she may get to that point that she does mean it, but right now, she is reacting from shock and emotions b/c she didn't think you would ever do what you are.
I think you should be braced for more of her BS about trying to work on the M. She is not interested in a M with you, she is interested in her own welfare. She wants to use the benefits that come being M to you, but she doesn't want to be your W. I think she may try to pull most anything to get you to say you'll stay through Christmas. It's crazy, isn't it?
If I remember correctly, Starsky did not tell his children/family about his W's true reasons for wanting a D, until she really filed (or started to file) and he believed the M was over at that point. But she had lied to their children and her parents, etc., and made it appear that it was a mutual agreement. So the purpose was so his children would know he did not want a D, and so they would hear the truth about their Mother's lies.
The only reason I bring this up (Starsky can tell this for himself, if he wants) is b/c not knowing what trick your W may pull out of her bag next, you may have to tell your son the truth before you had planned. I do not bring this up to be another argumentative topic, but rather so you will have that tucked under your hat in case it is necessary to reveal to him what's going on. Like I said before, kids figure things out pretty quickly. He may not want to hear all of it right now.
Your son could see which parent went to comfort him last night.
Don't be concerned about her threats to take you to court. Threats is all she has to throw at you, since you didn't buckle under the other stuff she slung. I believe it was you who said that infidelity does matter in the courts where you live, so I doubt she's going to pursue it.
She has not been a good mother to S11 recently, nor a good W. Let her guilt/emotions eat at her. She needs to feel it or she will never have remorse for her behavior. A WAW will blame her H to justify and give excuses for her own behavior (as she is still doing as of last night.) Right now she is saying she never wanted to hurt any of you. Well, no of course not. She feels badly that you and son suffered, but not bad enough to stop the A. She needs to be remorseful for ever being with OM, and she's not that at that point. At this time, she still wants to be with him. In six months, who knows?
To be honest, I am impressed with your plans of moving forward. In the previous months, I think you would have been very upset and still clinging to her skirttail. I believe for some LBH's, they have to feel "done" just to do what you did last night. Beware, the old scary emotions may be around the corner, but you sure are doing well right now!
My hope and prayer is that healing will come for all of you. After you and son leave, I hope reality of her actions will hit her and she will see her A with OM for what it really is. I hope she will miss you terribly, not to punish her but b/c I know that's what she must feel. I don't think it was going to happen with you there with her. And, sadly, there is no guarantee anything will come from the void left in her life. I hope she will seek professional help (for the right reason this time). In time, she could turn around.
For her, the hurt of what she's done to her family....and to herself must come in order for her to get out of that crazy fog and work on her addiction to OM. She needs to do the work on herself. I pray she will get the right C to help her see what to do.
((HP))
Well... she's now staying in the house with us this next week. She says she needs time to pack, get money organized, find apartment, etc. I never said she should leave here... but she did offer last night (and multiple times over the last 2 months) to go stay at her aunt's house. I see now she never meant that offer b/c she felt certain I would want her to stay with me and s11. I have noticed her pattern of making nice offers she feels I will refuse.
When she came into the bedroom just now to talk to me, she knocked on the door and asked to come in. She has not done that before. She asked if I would still take s11 to basketball tryouts tonight. I said yes. She asked if I wanted her to come. I said no. She started to get sad and teary again. She said again she wanted to do what I wanted her to do to make the move smooth and that she would go when I wanted her to go. I nicely said it would be great, then, if she spent the weekend at her aunts. That's when she started in with how she wanted to stay for another week. I said fine, just please make yourself scarce. She asked about the car and I said of course she could use it just to go to work while me and s11 are still here. She asked for help with time to find apartments... gather money... etc. I said you can figure it out. I'm not helping you.
So yes I was irritated with her continuing not leaving. I am very happy with the help here I got to a place where I can make this move without her. Even her text today about doing whatever I want and leaving when I ask her so the move would be smooth was another false offer to get us to stay here longer. She asked again when we're leaving. I said, if not the 14th then that week. I think I get it. She's thinking she can't stay here after we leave b/c all the furniture is out and then she'll have nowhere to stay without answering questions. I never said the furniture would be out on the 14th. Maybe a miscommunication. We'll see.
Ah she just said why. She want furniture here so she can have s11 here as well around the end of the month. She planned a sleepover for s11 bday the last weekend of the month. Should I just tell her to cancel that?
Anyway... I'm not filling her love tank at all. Mine is pretty dry too. I really don't want to stay around her for another week. At least she won't be going on mystery overnight GALs with OM while she's acting so respectful all of a sudden.
An now she's sitting with s11 watching tv. I forgot to mention she did the same last night after all her spewing. She held s11 snuggled under a blanket. She looked miserable.
Any advice on how to interact with her while she's still here? I'm still pulling way way back and not so friendly. I am showing my irritation with her. She is being strangely deferential. Almost like we've reversed roles.
Really right now... she so mad at me and I'm mad at her. She came in again to talk separation items like visitation looking sad. She asked me if I had given this any thought. I said "no... none of this is what I want. As you want this, let me know what you think and I'll let you know what works for me." She's still saying she knows all this is her fault but she feel separation is best. I said... "yes separation is best... that is why I'm separating." She keeps saying she's sorry. I've asked her to stop saying she's sorry.
I am definitely showing her my displeasure. I'll remember to scale that back and be friendly.
I don't see R working out from here. Even after all the horrible things she did last night... she still seems to carry righteousness b/c s11 needs to be protected and she feels I'm not doing that by my actions. She's now thinking I'm an angry unreasonable ahole b/c she feels I kicked her out of the condo, ruined s11s holiday, and made our once orderly life difficult and uncertain and I won't budge on anything. I'm not showing loving kindness in this anymore. I see I can have a friendly attitude not for her but for me to be happier with my actions. And s11 too. What is the best way to consistently address W's righteousness on this?
That horrible night was just last night and she's already trying to make changes her way. I suggested I host the sleepover at the condo. She didn't like that. I may have to cancel the sleepover and just have the party at the restaurant. I'll ask s11.
Hmm... she really scrambling now....
She just came in with another idea. Again she was teary.
A couple friends of hers live close to the condo. She said she could stay with either of them. The bus to the city is also convenient so she may not need to buy a car. She would need to walk in the cold but this will save her money.
Then she suggests that, on her days to get S11 (for which she will need a car so she was likely next to ask to use our car), she could drop him off at the condo and spend time with him and do homework in the condo.
I said "it's fantastic you have friends close to the condo and that's a great idea dropping of s11. I'm not comfortable with you coming to the condo, though."
She paused looking at me with her mouth open like she's going to cry. Then she looks down and says... "yes that probably won't work" and walks away.
I was friendly this time. I won't bring up this is her doing or walking in s11's shoes anymore.
It's like the 30 phone calls. This won't end. I'm considering telling her to stop.
HP, I'm sorry I don't remember this, but is your wife your son's mother? Your signature doesn't say otherwise, but you always refer to him as "my son" and she calls him "your son."
Again, sorry if I missed all that.
As for Christmas, your marker should be very simple: do what is best for your son, while maintaining your own core boundaries. When in doubt, err on the side of doing what's best for your son.
Starsky
Hello Starsky. Yes our boy is ours. Doing what's best for my son is proving challenging as W point now is I'm not b/c I'm giving her the separation not on her schedule. Still figuring out this balance.
HP,
The next time W says she's sorry for hurting and for all this, simply say, "It doesn't look that way from where I stand. You are not sorry enough to make things right with me and your own son by breaking it off with the OM. You would rather be with OM over your own family. It is incredibly selfish and disrespectful to us. I will not tolerate being in an open marriage...it goes against my core values as a husband and father. It does not work for me. You were given several opportunities to break it off with OM to work on the M with me. You cannot have it both ways. I guess we know where you stand which is why I am moving to the condo to protect myself and our son."
Sometimes you do need to throw out truth darts and it's okay to do so. Believe me, you cannot be Betty Bo Beep and act all Pollyanna with this awful reality on the ground.
I am not in favor of STFU allllll the time. There are times to drink the STFU juice and other times to simply throw out truth darts.
Stay the course, HP. I know this is really, really rough on you emotionally, mentally, and spiritually. Taking a firm stance will pay dividends in the long run. Right now, it is as much fun as trying to walk through the Fun House with the floor shifting every direction.
You will get through this with all of us here backing you up.
Wonks: would "it doesn't look like that from here" suffice?
Yes, Maybell. Your idea works really well. The scripts are to aid the LBS in dealing with the WAS. I am not too hung up on how a certain thing is said or worded as long as the essence of the message is conveyed to the WAS.
Well... W came and again changed her mind. Instead of agreeing with when I want to move like she said, she now wants s11 to stay in our current home until the end of the month while I move whenever I want. It never ends. I will take s11 to the condo tomorrow to get him used to it. Then start moving our stuff over next week.
The discussion was very heated. Then, somehow, it got into really friendly R talk. I backslid very badly b/c I had a drink. Listened to her talk all about her horror stories being my wife. I talked about how we have good things worth saving. I talked about how I understood what she was going through b/c of my OW. Then I said I ML to my OW. W said she knew with no pause. Later she said she suspected. She was non-committal about how she felt about it except to say she wasn't mad then and that she had filed it away. I said it was over. W said she knew b/c me and my OW haven't spoke in a while. She said that's how she knew my OW was attracted to me... because she had to go NC to break it off. I said yes NC to break off an A is good. No response. We talked about my A for maybe 5 minutes. W didn't seem to care as she is in her own A and says she doesn't want to be married to me. Even so, my A is now out there 25... thank you sincerely for encouraging me to be honest.
Anyway, W was not honest saying she could walk away from her OM anytime and he's just a stranger she's trying to figure out her feelings for. W does not know I saw her love letters to OM... though as GG said her words could be false but I really don't think so. I did not remember your speech Wonka... but did mention in one of our heated talks today how this OM is more important than her family as she won't drop him to do MC. She mentioned in our R talk about, if things go well (her way) with s11 having Christmas and his bday in the house, she would consider going to the couples retreat in January as her friend went and those events can do miracles for couples she says. (I do want to go.) She said she is doing counseling now to see if she can get to the place where she feels committed to try. She even talked about her aunts (who she says she told about her A and they disapprove) saying she should sign a 6 month lease in her apartment as who knows where W will be by then. W said who knows she could be ready to reconcile in 6 months after saying a few times she didn't want to be married to me. So she did it again... offering me false somethings to get control.
I was far too friendly again with my W in an A. I feel bad about that. At the end of the convo I said... we'll get back to fighting tomorrow and smacked her butt a few times. She was uncomfortable with that so I teased her... "OM likes that? That make you uncomfortable? That's my A$$!" Awful awful awful. I really can't have a drink (which I asked for and she made for me) around her.
It would have been nice if I could trust anything she said. One night bravely facing horrible spew from W and the next night butt smacking her like a weak kid. A terrible wet noodle moment... really my worst. I did not commit to any changes to the plan, though, as somewhere in my head I knew I was getting roped in. I'll have work to do tomorrow to get lost control back. I really hate this.
...
On another note... sandi you mentioned letting s11 know about Christmas separation. W got to him first saying we would try to have Christmas together which she knew I would not do. She turns to me and says "right dad?" I say, "s11, I'm sorry it looks like we won't have Christmas together this year." This made him sad all evening. Later, he texted W... "Why did you lie?" That's what W told him our issue is... that she made a terrible mistake and lied to him and me about where she was. S11 said he was mad at the world and his whole life is ruined. W blamed me b/c of the condo move (I broke our agreement), and not having Christmas together. She went and did an excellent mother thing by staying with him before bed to talk to him. She again spent extra time and effort on S11 today (though she called herself a terrible mother). She also said she cancelled all her upcoming overnights out of respect. I teased "where they really what you said they were on your schedule?" She said yes. She lied again.
Tomorrow then I really have to be on my game. GAL with my dad and s11. Taking s11 to the condo first time. Really starting to pack. W in the house almost all weekend as she's now fully found out and focusing on s11 instead.
Just terrible on the R talk today. Everyday she gives me something I really want to believe. The point now is to get away from her and go dark. No more R talks!!!
Also... I'm starting to feel like I look weak with OM talk (and butt spanking). I know she says she loves him and they're a couple. In that context, everything she says to me about us is a lie. I talked more about OM today than I have in weeks I think. I'm going to really stop R and OM talks and go back to pulling way way back and being frustrating like I did for the past few days. Whenever I make a change from friendly to pull back I get spew. We'll see.
Posting an email I want to send W after our discussions yesterday where she's fighting me on moving to the condo. The first part is based on words she expressed in a text. The rest is your script Wonka. Please let me know what you think...
Nice talking with you last night W. You said you've been incredibly awful to me and S11. That you understand and I'm right and you're going to do everything to make our move peaceful. You said, after what you've done, you're sorry and now it's about me and S11 and what's best for us. Thank you for saying that W, but it doesn't look that way from where I stand. I hate to say this... You are not sorry enough to make things right with me and your own son by breaking it off with this man. You would rather be with him over your own family. It is incredibly selfish and disrespectful to us. Because I have done this awful thing too, I know how damaging and disrespectful this is to us, so I will not tolerate being in an open marriage like this. It does not work for me. You were given several opportunities to break it off with him to work on our family with me and s11. You cannot have it both ways. I guess we know where you stand which is why I am moving to the condo to protect myself and our son. Please know I have no intension of ever taking S11 from you. You are his mother and he needs you now and for the rest of his life.
Thank you again for understanding W.
One edit to the email above... W used these words... "can't have my cake and eat it too" so changing...
"You cannot have it both ways."
to
"You cannot have your cake and eat it too."
Hmm... "You cannot have it both ways" sounds better.
Also... here is a text that sums up her righteousness about not moving s11 because it's disrupting him, his school, and his holidays...
At this moment... you are hurting s11. You are putting him in the middle. I know what I have done is horrible.. but YOU are hurting him now. Please. I beg you. Don't do it. For him. Please.
She keeps saying she's done something horrible/awful/terrible but then shifts responsibility to me for what I'm doing to protect myself. She says she "owns" what she's done over and over again, but then expects me to change when she won't. Then she says I'm right and backs off. Then she comes again with righteousness.
What is the best way to respond to this? I keep reminding her that all of this is her choice... but then she deflects again by admitting her wrong and that she owns it and but now I'm wrong so lets have Christmas and let s11 stay with her in the house instead of moving him to the condo.
And now she's being extra good mom for S11. When I remind her of all the time she spent away from him with OM... she's say "I love my son. He's my #1 priority. How dare you say that? I've put myself in his shoes for 8 years! That's why I stayed." I bit after every truth dart that she gets... she comes back with righteousness like the above.
Hi HP
Definitely wait for wonka on this one. It doesn't read right to me - it sounds very Blamey rather than assertive to me.
I might be getting myself confused but this also seems to tell your wife you had an A - does she know about this already?
What is the best way to respond to this? I keep reminding her that all of this is her choice
The best way is more action and less talk. I believe you should stop telling her this is her choice because it comes across as weak. Plus it seems to be a fact that moving out IS your choice. Own it.
"I have decided that this is what I am doing. This isn't working for me" Women are attracted to confident, decisive men.
I highly recommend no letter. Pull back. Only respond in small short comments. You are still chasing her in a backdoor type way. You are still adding to the relationship talks....
Action. Less talk....
"This is what I have decided" Less finger pointing.
Thank you Jim. I am concerned about the tone of the email too.
And yes... I told my wife I had a PA last night. It did not phase her. In fact, it was the first thing she brought up today. She said, when she thought it happened, that she felt kind of glad I was getting affection as at the time she was not giving me any. It was not that she didn't care she said. I made sure to tell her I was wrong to do that. I took the easy way to be happy and that happiness wasn't real and didn't last. I should have come to her and told her I wasn't happy and then gotten help for us. And that she was wrong for sweeping it under the rug. I know she was justifying her behavior now and saying I should be happy for her. Awful.
...
She's been talking like we're friends again this morning because I was much too friendly last night. I shut that down with short answers. She made sure to tell me where she's going with the car this morning. I pushed back on the timing and she offered to check in on FB wherever she went to help me feel better. I said you do what you want. Then she when downstairs and made a show of asking s11 to come with her. Of course he did not want to. She's been making a big show if being a great mom since my BD and her "breakdown" in her words. anyway, she just left. I can see now I've lost ground with the friendly R talk last night. Long weekend ahead. I can do it.
HP....
CLHD and STFU, man!
No emails; and certainly not that ^^^ one.
Jim is right. It sounds condescending and you're throwing her words back in her face.
Every line is saying "Liar!"
"Cheater!" "Homewrecker!"
You are rehashing old territory and it makes you look weak.
There is nothing in there she DOESN't ALREADY KNOW.
You pointing it out--again--isn't going to get her to see the error of her ways, and it certainly will not make her feel any closer to you.
Quit talking and focus on your ACTION PLAN.
Remember, this DBing is counterintuitive.
If you think it "feels" right, it's probably wrong.
HP--you've got to stop running up to that ledge over and over.
Do you see it's the same behavior pattern you're doing?
It's as if you think something you say is going to make things different.
It's your actions that have power.
Look how your actions have changed the balance here already!
Trust me, with WAS all they hear when we talk is "Blah, blah, blah..."
All the while looking for loopholes they can use to escape consequences or carry on their affairs.
And speaking of, I suspect this whole "must have Christmas as she planned" has got to be about something else, maybe OM?
Because clearly she hasn't thought much of S11's feeling so far, but now there's this massive manipulation dog and pony show to get you to have "Christmas as a (Not yet broken) Family"???
Something smells fishy....
Zip it and write NOTHING.
STICK TO THE FACTS.
MINIMAL DISCUSSION.
If we come to this ledge again, I'm either going to push you...or I'm gonna jump myself!
Your Pal,
The Goat Gal
Thank you GG. I'm glad I posted the email here before I sent it. When I woke up this morning I felt sick about the friendly R talk I allowed last night and immediately wanted to address it. I did see how I was acting weak and like something I said would make a difference. Count on me to keep moving forward to the condo.
Today I will take s11 to the condo to look around and meet his granddad. Then we'll go get burgers and a GAL activity.
Packing today.
Also, I don't know about anything OM regarding her plans this month. She is now taking pains to look like s11 is her #1 priority like canceling her overnight tonight and making a show of saying she's going to be where she says today. I'm sure she feels horrible about S11 not having his Christmas the way he wants. That and the sleepover for S11's bday. She wanted to have it both ways hence her actions. She says she wants separation so she doesn't have to lie anymore... that separation means she can do whatever she wants as a single person. She just can't really do it without my help.
Either way... doesn't matter. I can't imagine what she's thinking anymore. Again last night she was cursing me and threatening me with lawyers about leaving here early with s11 and our furniture. I was doing great being calm and confident. Even teased her a little which pissed her off. I got tired and strained, though, but again didn't just stop the conversation. Then, she left and came back and apologizes for screaming b/c she felt attacked. Said I was doing much better than her b/c I was being so calm. Then I backslid and went all the way wet noodle. I was thinking what I was doing talking R was wrong after all the progress I made the past couple days but just kept going. And yes my pattern is, after I make a mistake, I go back to magic bullet tactics like the email or exposure. I screwed up. Please don't jump of the ledge GG.
Ok time to get back to work.
H- agree with GG. You MUST disengage from WAW.
It's like you're making a stew. You need to walk away and give it a few hours. Instead you're hovering at he stove, mixing, poking, dashing in new spices, tasting, prodding, etc. See what I mean?
You have nothing to tell her at this point. Nothing. A quick exchange about the car; or when to hand off the child, fine. But that is it.
Anything you say about her choices is pursuing. It is interrupting her process and restarting it. Consider it picking off a scab. It just has to start healing again and takes more time. You can't make a scab heal faster by picking at it!
And really, the more you focus on her and what she's doing the less you can grow. Making yourself a better person is the best thing you can do. And then she'll have to feel she might lose you. All you've done is continuously prove you want her back. So she's had no chance to process anything on her end; and no reason because you're right there for her.
I challenge you to go from now until move out without talking to her about anything beyond your child. Agreed it will be easier once your separated. And I challenge you to post only on your actions. 180s, GAL, activities with son.
The less you fixate on her the better. You're trying to work a program by as long as you're checking in on her hour by hour these backslides are inevitable. Walk away and focus on you now.
Thank you so much Zues for your advice. I took it just now an now I'm back in the driver's seat...
W just came home. She texted me while she was out to tell me where she was. She also called to tell me when she was on the way home. I did not reply.
When she got here, she started her super mom routine. She also tried to be friendly with me. Instead of the pissed off vibe I've been giving her, I remembered all the advice here to act with grace and class. So I did that in a businesslike way. Answered all questions she asked but did not give her back the warmth she gave me.
I went to cut my son's hair like I promised I would. Then I heard her in s11's room telling him he would spend most of his time living here with her instead of with me in the condo until the new year. She forced my hand so I had to act then.
She came into the bedroom very friendly and asked if there's anything she could get me. In our R, that means, can I get you a drink? That was my automatic answer that got me in trouble smacking her butt last night. This time I was ready and direct.
I said... "let's talk about the move" very businesslike. I could see this surprised her and the smile went away. Her shank a little and came over and sat on the other side of the bed from me.
I was direct while trying to be compassionate... "I am moving with S11 on the 14 to the condo and taking the truck. Please let me know days you would like to use the truck to drive to your out of town work. Also let me know days you would like to have Solomon stay with you. We can arrange a schedule around your work days. I would like to have Solomon with me at least half of the time."
She asked me about Solomon's science project. She wanted him to stay in the house with her for "stability."
I looked at her and said, "as I'm working with Solomon on the science project, I'll have him with me (at the condo) on those days. I won't be coming here to work on the project. Sorry."
She starts to tear up and sniff. She says "This is so sad."
I do not react at all to that and continue like she said nothing. She only has 2 days when she needs to drive so I told her she can have those days. We can agree to other days when we'll trade off the car so she can bring S11 home with her. I told her I would check out the condo tonight to see what we need to bring over and start that over this week. She asked about a sleepover she had scheduled for next weekend. Asked if she should cancel it. I told her yes. I offered that we'd move the furniture right after new years so she could have a place to sleep. She is about to cry.
I do not react or give her comfort. I thanked her sincerely and got up and walked out the room.
She followed me to the kitchen. Looking sad, told me something about S11s ADD meds. I was busy putting away dishes. I said "That's great. Thank you for telling me" and walked away. She says, "thank you for talking to me." I say as I'm walking away, "you're welcome."
Now she is being supermom and watching her Madam Secretary tv show. She watches only power woman tv shows now. I heard her make herself a drink. She's calling s11 to come watch TV with her.
This is a far cry from the last 2 nights cursing me and threatening me with lawyers and being righteous about pulling him out of the house on the 14th and not having a joint Christmas. This time she was really sad. I'm surprised she didn't fight me at all. I think it was my calmness, that I initiated, the brevity, my tone, and that I asked for her input. I wasn't telling her what to do. I was briefly informing her what I was doing and asked for her input. I lead. Last 2 nights I was calm but did was reacting and responding to what she was saying/doing and showed plenty weakness and sweating as I got tired.
This time I worked to show grace and understanding, sat up straight, looked her dead in the eye, was serious, made sure I had something to eat, and did not react or try to rescue her from this. I'll keep doing that. Glad I didn't send that email this morning.
As for Christmas... if she insists to do it for him, I'll agree. I won't help her do the tree, something I loved to do with her, as I'll be gone.
So thank you Zues. This is the action I took today.
She is spinning and will continue trying to work you by using any means necessary (especially S11 b/c that is really all she has to use against you).
I think it is time to tell her no more texting, calls, or talks unless it an emergency with S11, at least until afer the holidays. She is trying to wear you down......and she will if you don't stop it.
Now she is being supermom and watching her Madam Secretary tv show. She watches only power woman tv shows now.
Interesting. My W is also into the whole "girl power" thing since she left, music and books. I thought it had something to do with me having been too critical of her when we were together, so that she would relish freeing herself from my control. I now wonder if it's a thing WAWs do to find the energy after all.
By the way, you're doing very well. I'm impressed.
She is spinning and will continue trying to work you by using any means necessary (especially S11 b/c that is really all she has to use against you).
I think it is time to tell her no more texting, calls, or talks unless it an emergency with S11, at least until afer the holidays. She is trying to wear you down......and she will if you don't stop it.
Hello Sandi. Thank you for the encouragement and your advice. It is again comforting to know that someone recognizes what is really going on here in my sitch. Although I don't see how I can get to R from here... I do feel like I'm learning to be a better husband for down the road.
...
She just came in here again smiling and very friendly like nothing's wrong to tell me something s11 said about a possible Christmas gift. I kept the same brief ad businesslike tone. She walked away smiling like we're buddies. I hate this.
Sandi, you're saying I stop even talks like the one that just happened? Or just R talks? When I gave her my BD, I told her then to not text or call me unless it's about s11. She called me 30 times that day. So next time she texts where she is, I'll remind her b/c I'm not concerned where she goes now. Although she has cancelled her overnights and outings this week and asking me to use the truck instead of just taking it. When she's not screaming at me b/c she feels attacked or cornered, why is she being deferential and friendly? Ah the spinning.
Now she sees me typing here. She asks me if I'm working. Why is she trying to engage me? I tell the truth. "No." She says "what are you doing?" I say, "something personal." She says, "us personal or just personal." I say "personal." Now she's walking over trying to get a look at what I'm doing. Now she's folding my clean clothes on the bed and still talking to me. "How is your business going? what are you guys doing to tonight?" Does W not think I should be friendly with her b/c she says she's not going to OM house tonight? I leave the room. She follows me out still smiling and talking and friendly.
I can't get to the condo soon enough.
HP,
I agree that you really do need to move for you and S11's sake. W just won't let up at all.
As for her asking what you're doing on the computer, I suggest that you delete browsing history each time you log off from DB. This way, she will not know what you've been doing here in DB. I have seen things BLOW UP after the WAS comes across DBing and reading their LBS' posts. That will most definitely end the M...and frankly the fastest way to do it.
Please do delete your browsing history each time you log out for your own protection.
Certainly I am very relieved to see that you did not send that email. Gosh. Every time you feel the itch to do it, walk away. Go out for a walk or do some activity with or without S11.
This morning's interaction with W was much stronger and firmer. Doesn't this teach you a lesson about drinking around home? Just makes you the weaker person because alcohol lowers a person's inhibitions and defenses...even if it's just a glass or two. Amazing what alcohol can do to a person's brain functions. The human body is an incredible organic computer system.
She is spinning and will continue trying to work you by using any means necessary (especially S11 b/c that is really all she has to use against you).
I think it is time to tell her no more texting, calls, or talks unless it an emergency with S11, at least until afer the holidays. She is trying to wear you down......and she will if you don't stop it.
Hello Sandi. Thank you for the encouragement and your advice. It is again comforting to know that someone recognizes what is really going on here in my sitch.
Although I don't see how I can get to R from here... I do feel like I'm learning to be a better husband for down the road.
The bolded section is your choice. It is within your realm of choices that you make each day. Right now, things look very dark with the heated and emotional exchanges over the past several days. Yeah, it looks bleak. However, many, many DBers have come back from sitches like this (some far worse in some cases) and have reconciled with their WASes. Trust the process, HP.
I agree with Sandi that your W is really throwing every conceivable argument your way to wear you down...especially using S11 as an emotional blackmail to guilt you for HER bad choices. Sheeesh. Transparent much?? Yup. I'd suggest that you put a hand up to W and say, "I am done talking with you. You know my stance and I am not wavering from it. My focus is on the move and I would appreciate your cooperation in this. Thanks." Stop all R talks or even OM talks. She knows where you stand. No point in rehashing all of it.
Then drink some virgin Egg Nog!
Now she sees me typing here. She asks me if I'm working. Why is she trying to engage me? I tell the truth. "No." She says "what are you doing?" I say, "something personal." She says, "us personal or just personal." I say "personal." Now she's walking over trying to get a look at what I'm doing. Now she's folding my clean clothes on the bed and still talking to me. "How is your business going? what are you guys doing to tonight?" Does W not think I should be friendly with her b/c she says she's not going to OM house tonight? I leave the room. She follows me out still smiling and talking and friendly.
Sadly, this is W's way to find some soft openings to get you to soften up. Sigh. A part of me suspects that she is wanting to know your plans/schedule so she can coordinate some outings with the OM. It just never stops.
Just one more week and you'll be out of there. Hang in there, buddy!
(((HP)))
I also agree with you about the friendliness subject. At this point, and considering her extreme mood/behavior swings, I think it would be better to just focus on staying calm and civil. That way, your actions can remain more on even keel, rather than responding to whatever mood/behavior/ or trick she decides to use every twenty minutes or so.
After the move and emotions settle down, maybe then you can show more friendliness. But right now, it just doesn't seem to "fit" the situation, if you know what I mean. Remaining civil is not a bad thing, and seems more authentice (I would think).
Hang in there dude, It seems tough but you have a week to go.
Thank you sandi, wonka, mozza, and bigmac. I really am pleased with my return to being firm today and I appreciate your comments on that and your advice on next steps. When she was friendly this afternoon as I described, she had been drinking. After the friendly conversation I mentioned, I came in the bedroom to find her lying prone on the bed staring at the ceiling like she had been on the night of her "breakdown" as she called it (when she drank then promised s11 a happy family and then took it back). So she's again looking to escape responsibility and drinking to escape pain? Who knows and doesn't matter.
As for after the move, sandi, instead of friendliness I was planning to go very dark. Only communication about s11 emergencies with calm and civility like now.
Thank you Wonka again for the IRL reassurance that sitches like mine can piece together successfully. Also, I write my posts on a password protected pc. She doesn't have the skill to break that. Thank you, though, for the warning. I found it interesting she asking again about what I'm doing especially after the hellish last couple days. She did again just now... cheerfully asking about my GAL tonight with S11 and my dad. I said with false cheerfulness "It was life changing!" as I walked up the stairs. She followed me up and asked "how so?" I said "personal between me and dad." She said she wouldn't pry but she's glad we had a great time and left. She really pushing this buddy thing now.
...
A few times over the past few weeks I believe I've said "This is the worst day of my life."
Today went pretty great as I wrote in my last posts.
Then came my GAL with dad and s11. S11 had a great time and was able to get his mind off his troubles for 3 hours at an family restaurant/arcade.
My dad and I talked and my world changed. The worst day of my life....
I was telling dad about the promise my W made and then took away from s11. I was having trouble with him, though, as he did not seem at all troubled by what I was telling him. He was never a really empathetic man in my experience... but I was in the fight of my life and he didn't seem shocked by anything I was saying.
Then he said... "HP... I'm going to tell you something. I've never told this to anyone else. I've held this for 30 years."
Yes... he knows EXACTLY what I'm going through and much much worse... b/c of my mother.
She was a lonely housewife far from home. She took some college courses and got a job. I nice man there talked to her. She liked it. He kissed her in the hall. He asked her to lunch. Took her by his home. He apparently drugged her water. She felt funny. He raped her.
If he did drug the water, he didn't have to. She came back to him in his house at least 2 times that she told my dad and her IC with dad present.
She told my dad after the apparent last of those times. Told him she wanted to be married to my dad, to take care of me and my bros... but to have sex with this OM.
That started the worst 6 years of my father's life.
He had her quit her job, took the car from her, and forbade her to see the man again. My 7 foot tall dad confronted the man.... and got smirking. My mom still called the man. Who knows what happened when my dad was at work. So, he moved all of us into a private gated neighborhood owned by his employer. No one unauthorized could enter. He kept her at home. Watched her.
All to save his family. To keep what he had and to protect us boys. We never knew.
But it got worse. She drank. A lot. She started to get very unbalanced. They started to argue. I remember one where my mom drank from bottles of hard liquor then smashed them in the sink. I remember cleaning up the glass everywhere. I vividly remember the smell. I remember the screaming arguments about someone's big dick.
Dad took her to an IC and sat in sessions with her. She revealed all that happened. But she kept deteriorating from the pain of her experience. After a while... she was diagnosed as schizophrenic.
My dad hid it all from me and my bros. There was no one else to help him. No DB books, no forum, no friends he could tell.
He did, though, start doing thing to keep busy and feel better... weight lifting, running, hobbies.
Stuff happened I won't repeat here as my mom got worse. I remember some of that. We thought she was simply sick. She had to go to a mental hospital for a few days. I remember dad taking me there... seeing her there shuffling with a tired, miserable, gone look on her face. Staring at nothing.
She would leave for weeks to her home and family with my youngest brother. Then she would ask dad to come back... or her family would send her back b/c they were scared of her. Dad always let her come back.
After six years of my father coming home afraid of what or who he would find... she died of a blood clot in her lung. I found her lying on the floor.
This is why I was angry with my dad. I don't know how paramedics got there... but when my dad got there... he looked calm. Not crying or sobbing. Just standing above her looking at her with a grave look I remember.
I told him of my anger all these years about that. Asked him why he was calm.
He said b/c he was relieved.
He had always been angry and resentful of her about her A... and the horrible thing she said to him about OM... Even as he did so much alone to help her look like a good mom, keep her in the family, and try to protect us. He said he failed. Nothing he did made anything better. He should have let her go home to her family with our youngest bro and refuse to take her back.
It was a horrible story. A long story. He told it graphically. Even the sex as my mom described it. He never flinched though... never looked sad or hopeless.
In the middle of that family restaurant... I broke down. He did not comfort me. Just let me cry.
He told me why he told me. He said telling me was the hardest thing he's ever done in his life. He said he told me for the lesson... he survived.
He thought his world was over. He was not a strong man when mom told him of her A. He didn't know what to do and felt powerless, angry, and ashamed. He suffered everyday for 6 years with her in the house going in and out of "crazy" he said. Told me of his horrible pain. How much he cried. Told me about the current phone number of an old boyfriend of hers he found in her stuff after she passed. He endured everything... not for her... but for me and my bros.
And he survived. It took him a long long long time to be happy he said. After the 6 years dealing with mom, he spent the next 6 years alone bringing up my brothers. My mom died just before my first year of college in this city I live in now.
Back home... my dad got him and bros grief counseling for the pain. In college, I did not get myself counseling. I struggled horribly with depression. I never got away from it.
After those 12 years... my dad finally started living. Never re-married, but found a great woman who adores him and takes care of him ( I never liked her for taking mom's place )... and now he's very very happy.
It took 12 years of him fighting alone to get to a place to finally get to where he is now.
He told me I'm living his life. That I'm a 45 year old man... Decide what you're going to do and then do it. Don't vacillate. Don't hesitate. You can't change her mind he said. You can't fight her. You can't confront OM. You can't do anything about it. These people are not sane. Your W is not the person you knew. Don't even think about her and OM. She is gone and will have to fix her problems herself.
He said you are the strong one. You are the best one. He said be strong for your boy... focus on your life and your boy's life. Think about what you say to her before you say it. Do not drink around her. Do not relax around her. Walk away from her now and get a life for yourself... the life you want. You will survive. You will be better than you are now. You will have better than you do now. And you can always talk about this to me.
Everything all of you here say.
He survived and got much much stronger. He says he never thinks of my mom. Buried her, turned his back on her grave and never went back to it. I went back with my W and couldn't find it. He never bought a gravestone. I was angry about that. My W was shocked. He never bought that gravestone on purpose. He buried her.
I remember him comforting my bros at the funeral. They were all crying. Dad I think cried for me and my bros. I remember not crying. I was angry. I stayed angry all this time.
I couldn't imagine hearing all this today. I sobbed into my napkin until s11 came back. He had won some awesome prizes at the arcade. I looked at him. He will grow up to be a good and nice man. Told my dad this can't happen to him.
And it won't.
...
S11 and I meet dad for a pizza and a movie GAL at the condo on Tuesday.
Right now I'm OK. In fact... right now I feel stronger.
7 days to go until I move into the condo with s11.
HP,
Wow, I don't even know what to say.
HP
(((((((((((((((Respect))))))))))))))
Vanilla
So sorry. So sad. Take care
HP, wow. Your story has me sobbing. What a touching incredible story. What a revelation and what a lesson for you. Amazing. Big hug.
Big hug to you...and your Dad, HP. Incredible.
Thank you for the hugs and support. Last night when I got home to w acting like we're buddies... I'm not sure how I was feeling. I just kept moving.. looking good for s11. I took an ice cold shower. Noticed I couldn't get through it like I normally do. W then came to be friendly again. I dismissed her with short but friendly answers. Then I started to type. I wanted to get it out I think. When I finished, I sat there for a while. I almost didn't click the post button. I don't know where I'd be without this board. I can't imagine how my dad faced mornings without a way to talk. I'll have to ask him.
I've sleepwalked through my entire life. Thought mine was a pretty good life. My childhood too. My brothers and I felt ours was blessed somehow. If I'm honest, though, I don't have many memories of my mom. Nothing of me going anywhere with her alone like shopping. And i was i teenager for those 6 years. My suspicion all these years was it was my dad who broke my moms heart. That he hurt her. Yesterday I thought I was wide awake. I'm waking up now to a completely different world from just a few hours ago.
And it starts right away ...
Text from w at 6am. She says she's gone to her office. Im not sure she took the car. An hour later, she comes back. I am in bed with my eyes closed. She comes into the bedroom and goes to the bathroom. I hear her crying. I note that I am not sympathetic. I also note she could have cried anyplace else in the house and that she knows I'm usually awake by now. After a while, she leaves. None of that matters. I'm focused on the move.
...
Today I'm packing and practicing PMA. I'm going to take a walk around the time mid morning when I get the terrible anxious angry shaky feeling. Spend time with s11. Staying clear of W.
There's nothing else to do but just do it.
I'm sorry you're having the perfect storm of hearing all this about your mom and dealing with your W at the same time. This is a rough, rough time but I promise it will get better. Hugs!!!!
HP,
Your father has given you an incredible gift.
It's a truly blessed time when we mature enough to connect with our parents as adults, dropping all the trappings of the parent/child relationships. It is then that you realize that they are human too, as flawed as anyone else, and that a lot of what we go through really isn't novel, and that there is a wealth of experience and support there. It is unfortunate that many people never get to that point before it is too late.
I have to believe that yesterday was very cathartic for your father as well. And now you can drop all that resentment you've carried around for years.
HP, I expect things are becoming crystal clear for you now, and you will move forward purposefully and with much less anxiety.
-Zew
Thank you maybell. Your support means a lot to me. Yes it is a lot to carry right now. I know, though, there's meaning and value to be found in all this suffering. We'll all make it.
And thank you zew. Yes amazing what it takes to really appreciate a father sometimes. He might have died with me carrying my resentment. And yes... Crystal clear clarity is coming. I stayed in bed until 9am. My painful terrible anxiety anger shakes and thoughts came this morning. There are new terrible images in my head. Then they all left sooner than usual. Not as bad. Getting better I hope.
W is still being very friendly. I did civil and businesslike... But I could not bear o look at her. Could not bear to be close to her. I answered her briefly, told her her idea about a play date was fantastic, and dismissed her by walking away. She was holding her head in her hands later. I noted again I am very unsympathetic. Something changed last night. She is losing me quickly now.
HP
Kindness in this. Your parents relationship is between them, both of them clearly loved their children.
Vanilla
HP,
I am speechless after reading the story about your father and mother. Just wow. Thank you for opening up and sharing here with us. What an incredible journey your father traveled. I am sure you now see him with a new set of eyes and appreciation for what he's done for you and your brothers.
I respect him for not bad mouthing your mother and not airing the dirty laundry for he wanted you and your brothers to love your mother without the lens of her affair. My hat's off to him.
Your comment about not liking his new companion was interesting. My mother has remarried and we all like our stepfather. We appreciate the fact that my mother has someone in her life who she enjoys and he respects her. My mother is happy. That is all that matters.
I know who my father was and no one can ever replace my father. No way! He lives on in my heart.
Hello Wonka. Thank you for your post. My dad's story was horrible to hear... but it made so many parts of my memories come together and make sense. Somehow it was healing. Today has not been as painful as other days. And yes... I'm so grateful for my father. Before all this I never made an effort to know him. He shared something incredibly painful to him to try to help me. Now I have another new friend... my dad. Something else good coming from all this suffering.
And yes on his companion... I see what my issue was and how wrong I was. My dad is happy. He's earned it many times over. And my son has a happy granddad he can now finally get to know better. That's all that matters.
...
I'm not answering texts or calls from W again. I gave her the pissed off vibe this morning. She had a lot of nerve asking for a drive to work now that her full A is out in the open. It seems again like she's expecting me to just be fine and friendly b/c this is the way things are... b/c it's best for S11.
Well she's home now. Let's see.
Well I'm in the negotiations phase of this where I'm accepting the separation and working with W on s11 scheduling and where he'll go to school next year. I see this is going to be terrible.
I opened after my BD about moving to the condo by asking her for her dates when she needed the family car for work. At first she accused me of wanting to take her baby, then said she was wrong, then fought again, then agreed to get me dates to share.
So, today I brought up my wanting to move to Florida and asked her to consider options. She started crying and saying I wanted to take her baby again. I did not fold and said I was only asking her to consider it. We agreed to send s11 to a public school in another state to save money. She's crying and asked "do we need a lawyer... no mediator... to help us?" I said, "no were 2 reasonable adults we can figure it out." Somehow I mentioned again that I had talked with a lawyer. She starts sobbing "you have a lawyer and you're going to sue me for custody of my baby!" over and over. It seemed fake. I did not fold... stayed calm and even. Told her I do not want to take s11 from her. She's her mother and he needs her. Told her I'm the same person she's always known... I don't want to compete with her on anything. I don't want any of this (I should probably stop saying that). Looking pitiful she mentions again how she doesn't want to be married to me and says something like "you just want me to say I want to be in M with you with no love." I did not react to that though it hurts to hear her say that. She is so against me. I put my hand up like a stop sign and said something like "No. The way you're being now I don't want you in my house." Too far there.
During the conversation, she opens a notebook and writes something down so I can't see it. After the convo, she gets a text and tells s11 she's going for a coffee (in the evening). She leaves.
So it seems I'm making her an enemy now. Cornering her instead of just giving her everything she wants. She said what I said about Florida scared her. She said that before with my condo BD. She starts to cry and moan and act attacked when I tell her what I will do in this sitch. I try not to reassure her in those moments. I don't think I said I wouldn't sue her for custody ... and did not say that I would. She also mentioned "if we're still separated or divorced" when she talked about the future. Like she's looking to scare me. Maybe lawyer up.
She just really seems against me. She looks at me like she's exhausted of me. For half the convo she had her back turned to me. I did not see tear despite her crying.
I mean what I said about not wanting her in my house the way she's acting. Normally I would have said something like "We can rebuild our M." This time I really rejected her.
2x4 for being too hard on her now? I must be pushing her away with all this? She's not feeling closer to me her panic whether it's real or not.
Was I wrong to bring up florida for consideration? Am I being too hard on her now? What is the best way to treat her in these negotiations?
It would be really funny if one day her and I could look back on all this and laugh. Right now I really think she hates me.
Oh... and how can I best answer when she says... "you just want me to say I want to be in M with you with no love." She uses that to shut me down like I want to control her. I can see how everything I'm doing looks to her like control.
HP,
You're trying to control things around you by "negotiating" things with W. And Florida? Yeah, that was far too much, too soon.
As of this morning, you were in a very good and strong position. You undid all of that by mentioning Florida and "negotiating" with W. I cannot blame W for thinking and accusing you of taking away S11.
What was your goal by bringing up Florida when you're not YET even moved to the condo?
You are confusing things by mixing condo and Florida. One thing at a time.
Right now, the focus is to move to the condo as seamlessly as possible with the minimum amount of disruption to S11. By you being out of the rental, you and S11 will establish your own routines and W will have to figure her stuff out.
This is where the rubber hits the road, HP. Forget Florida.
And why bring up your L? How's that relevant to the discussion? Again, you are muddying waters with L, Florida, blah blah blah.
So, today I brought up my wanting to move to Florida and asked her to consider options.
What were you hoping to hear back from W about "consider options"? Such as.....?
Get a grip and re-focus on your immediate goal: condo move.
W says:
"you just want me to say I want to be in M with you with no love."You could have responded:
"I am sorry that you are feeling this way. This is something for you to figure out yourself." And leave it that way.
I appreciate you sharing that painful experience. Do you believe that was the root of all your anger issues? I hope so, and that you can now heal. Your dad was trying to protect you boys, but in doing so, he kept the truth from you and it ruined a relationship between father & son. I have not none anything to that degree, but have been guilty of trying to protect someone and in return I was made out to be the bad guy. I hope when you said it would not happen to your boy that you meant he would know what really went down between his parents......at some point in time. Don't wait for thirty years.
It may not be a bad idea to lawyer up. If she gets too difficult to deal with, you could turn it over to the lawyer.
2x4 for being too hard on her now? I must be pushing her away with all this? She's not feeling closer to me her panic whether it's real or not.
Not from me! I think you are being incredibly nice to her, considering her treatment/behavior in the past few days.
Stop being concerned about pushing her away. There was absolutely nothing you could have done to draw her closer than you are doing right now. First comes her shock and anger, then she try like heck to manipulate you and keep resorting to her bag of tricks. Then when she sees she can not affect you with her dramatics, she will get sad and depressed. All of this is part of the process. You surely did not expect her to fall into your arms when you gave her the BD. However, don't be totally shocked if she doesn't save that one for the final trick.
Doesn't this all simply amaze you, when you turned it around on her? She doesn't want you anymore right now than she did months ago. Yet, after the dust has settled, and when she comes out of the fog, she will respect you for being the man you are being now. She may never admit it to you, but she will respect you a lot more. Look how long and how much it took to get you to do this. It may take her longer before she starts getting her head straight. She may, at times, find herself even respecting you more right now, but her anger is calling the shots for her.
Just as a reminder, she is focuses on using S11 as her leverage, cause that's all she has. She knows it, and we know it.....and I think you do too.
Oh... and how can I best answer when she says... "you just want me to say I want to be in M with you with no love." She uses that to shut me down like I want to control her. I can see how everything I'm doing looks to her like control.
Say, "I confess of being guilty of that charge in past times, but I assure you it is not the case presently. You need not be concerned about me trying to get you to stay M to me."
And if she uses the control issue, say something similar. "Frankly, you are free to do whatever, as long as it does not affect S11 or myself. You do not have to check in with me an account of your whereabouts or your actions, just as long as it does not involved the boy or me". (Wonka or Starsky may give you something worded better.)
She is playing this little game where she is suddenly pretending to be transparent (when ot suits her.) She needs to get the picture that it is too late now. (I know that's not really how you feel, but that is what she must think). She had had this turned around on her and she doesn't really want to believe you can actually walk away from her. As a woman in an A.....it is exactly what she needs to shake and wake her. If anything will, this is it. Do not cave. You are doing great.
"Walk away from her now and get a life for yourself... the life you want. You will survive"
Your dad is a wise man.
I have been reading a book called "Uncoupling" It goes over the process that an "initiator", in this case the WAW is creating a separate sense of self, separate from the partner.
And the odd thing is, that there is absolutely nothing we can do to stop it. It just "is". The only way that there can be a future is for the "initiator - WAW" to start seeing their future with us.... and that chance is infinitesimally small. But the only way of achieving that chance is to move on so they can be attracted to us.
Take your dad's advice.
HP: What a story. That must have been so difficult to live through, and then to hear it now from your dad.
Sometimes it can be nearly impossible to see any positives coming out of our situations... but perhaps there is a way to see this breakthrough with your dad as something that never would have happened otherwise... and could end up being very life-changing for you in a positive way?
You are going through a lot and I admire your courage.
Hello Wonka. Thank you so much for your comments. Yes I see Florida was way too much. She was talking about moving to the next state over for the public schools there and I said "that's a discussion we need to have." She kept pushing and I kept saying that. Then she smartly said "we have to decide sooner than later b/c school contracts get signed in February." And I slipped up and went into Florida. So yes I did scare her but she did say maybe in high school. I know she didn't mean that but maybe that's enough to not rush her to a lawyer. And yes when I mentioned the lawyer I immidiately regretted the excalation. I won't do that again. I was sincere when I told her s11 needs his mom and she know me enough to know I won't take him away. The way she's acting though I don't know. I really like your response to her "You want an M with no love" pushing.
Hello Sandi. Thank you for your support and advice. Yes I think my anger comes a lot from my perception of dad. I noticed today I felt stronger when I would have figured I'd still be devastated from dad's story. Dad's intention seems to have done it's job. I will still go for that IC though. It is tough tough tough stuff and I'm sure I haven't really registered it yet.
And yes... my main thing here is to have no fear and self respect for myself. I feel great about how I'm firm and leading. This is how I want to live and think. No matter what happens here with M... I'm happy to be honing this needed part of my personallity.
As for s11 leverage... there was much more tonight...
I know I'm not supposed to be writing more about W. I'm ready to move on.
After the last conversation.. she went to her bathroom. I heard her crying again.
Later, she came to the bed to talk more about s11's next school options. A message came up on my phone from her calendar saying my birthday was canceled. I smiled and showed her. Acted hurt. "you canceled my birthday! I see how it is now. You've hurt my feelings!" I was teasing her with a smile right after the tough conversation where she was crying. Lightening the moment. She got upset and teary. "I would never cancel your birthday!" she started to cry and left.
I did not call after her or follow her.
She came back a little later with clothes to iron. She usually irons clothes in the morning before school. On the way in, she's staring at me. Strange. Laughing, I say, "why are you giving me the evil eye? What's that?" She starts to cry again.
She says "I would never cancel your birthday!" She goes on to explain how she had planned to take me to dinner on my birthday with s11 but I had made plans with my dad. She's crying while she irons clothes. She starts on her visiting to the condo. I say "I'm not comfortable with you visiting the condo." She tries many ways to get in. "Can I come with you went you move to settle him in? Can I be there just five minutes? Can I see the room so I can imagine him in it when he's away? Can I come in to decorate the room?" Every time I give her the same answer. Even after I say I'm done talking about it, she's still crying and asking.
She goes into how I'm hurting S11. I say "I can see how you would feel that way" or something like that. She did not spend long on that.
Then she asks "can I come for Christmas?"
She said she was going to do his Christmas. I did not fight her on that b/c I knew that she couldn't. I'm seeing I can simply agree with her bluffs which she doesn't expect. Then she always takes it back (like leaving the house, lawyers, taking s11 from the house, etc.)
I tell her "you can do his christmas like you said you would. I'm sure you'll give him a wonderful time."
"I don't have money for a tree."
I say... "I'll get a nice tree from Target for the condo. It will be beautiful. You can count on me."
"Can I come?"
"I'm not comfortable with you in the condo."
Then she cries... "What if s11 has a 2000 degree fever? You wouldn't let me in?" She's crying more.
I missed a chance here. I could have said "Really?" Damn.
She tripped me up here. I said "I'll take him to you." Ugh. She cried more and I said "Come on. Of course W." So she got me there.
I did this well... even and firm and a little loving... like I understood her pain. Even so, this was very hard for me. The socially programmed part of me wanted to give in. To give her the 5 minutes. She was crying (again without many tears). I wanted to help her. I did not.
She asked about presents. I told her what I planned to get him. She made suggestions. I said I'd get them.
Around here I said something like... "Right now I'm only interested in separating from you. I'm only focused on the move."
Then she did something strange. she asked "are you in my email? Something you said makes me think you read my email." I noted her act looked planned.
^^^Now, remember she said that.^^^^
I missed another opportunity. I had my pc on my lap, so I could have said... "yes W, I'm reading your mail right now."
Instead I said... "no W. But if you're worried, change your password." Damn.
Then she said... "what will you tell s11 when he asks why I'm not there?"
I made sure to tell her I would tell s11 that mom loves him and other nice things.
She asked me if I would talk badly of her to s11. I said you know me or something like that.
Then it came... she brought up my A. "not like I would tell s11 what you did." yep.
I chuckled and said "you're right. I'm no one to talk."
Then the timer on the food rang in the kitchen. I went downstairs to get it.
What do I see...
W's closely guarded computer open and on. Her gmail was on the screen.
I did not even look at the screen. But I missed the HUGEST opportunity.
I could have said... "hey W... your PC is open on your email! Don't let me see it!" DAMN DAMN DAMN!
Instead I just ignored it and whatever trap was on it.
Later she comes down smiling and friendly again. She says she's going to her aunt's bday. She informed me of it this morning and yesterday. She was going to take s11 and sees were watching football. She says " you want to stay with dad and watch football?" He says yes.
Then she asks him... "do you want me to bring home a piece of bday cake for you?" He says yes.
Then very friendly she asks me? I say no thank you. Then I remember being nice to her offers. SO I say "What kind of cake?" She tells me and I say ok thank you.
She says see you guys later and leaves. Very friendly when a few minutes before she was crying b/c I'm so mean.
My W is now a scheming 16 year old girl. I really missed on that gmail thing. I'll have to see what she has next on that.
Almost to the condo.
HP: What a story. That must have been so difficult to live through, and then to hear it now from your dad.
Sometimes it can be nearly impossible to see any positives coming out of our situations... but perhaps there is a way to see this breakthrough with your dad as something that never would have happened otherwise... and could end up being very life-changing for you in a positive way?
You are going through a lot and I admire your courage.
Thank you so much claire. I admire your courage too for bravely facing tough interactions with your H and the holidays in this terrible space.
Yes, I agree that the horrible horrible story had a wonderful effect... I got healing on my anger for my dad. I can tell my dad anything. I told him about my A. Only last week I didn't feel like I knew him. And my son has a granddad. And my past can start to heal. And I have some hard won lessons to teach my son before his wedding day.
And I love and feel so badly for my mom. Part of my story was my mom flew with me to my college freshmen orientation. She acted unstable the whole time. I hated her for that and felt she ruined the start of my new life. Then, a few days after we got home... I found her dead on the floor. Soon after... I went to college to start this life I've been living. I never healed. Now I have a chance to and accept the real truth about my mom. I'll have to help my bros with it one day.
I did not know this... my dad told me last night.... A blood clot in her leg got worse on the plane rides to my college and traveled to her lung which killed her.
...
Today's almost over. Hopefully nothing else happens. Hopefully I'll finally get some nice birthday cake from W. My W is terribly angry and frustrated with me and it's the best possible place I can be in my M. I'll resist the urge, then, to ease up and have a late night laugh with her .
I feel good PMA. I really do. Just get to bed with no backslides.
Onward.
Poirot, this stuff hurts, but it also comes with the best gifts of our lives. Like childbirth.
. Be well and keep finding the positive.
HP,
Excellent job on the interaction.
You seem to be learning one very important and effective lesson here... AGREEING... Agreeing with a WS is a very effective means of diffusing disagreements. Good job.
I'm seeing I can simply agree with her bluffs which she doesn't expect. Then she always takes it back (like leaving the house, lawyers, taking s11 from the house, etc.)
Then it came... she brought up my A. "not like I would tell s11 what you did." yep.
I chuckled and said "you're right. I'm no one to talk."
Very, very good on both interactions. Learn to agree.
For example, when a WAW says they want out....
"Yes, I agree this hasn't been working" (then be quiet0
Notice who is doing the chasing now. Keep up the good work...
Women are attracted to happy, confident, secure, emotionally strong men. You are becoming that man right before our eyes.
Great job.
I feel good PMA. I really do. Just get to bed with no backslides.
Of course. We usually always feel better when we finally "let go" and realize that we respect ourselves much better when the WS wants out and we freely let them go. Love has to be freely given. We can't force someone. Things happen when we let go because it finally takes off the pressure.
Your actions in the last few days have helped to get her thoughts off of OM so much and more on to
"have I gone too far?" All because you have changed direction and are showing great self respect and confidence. (which women keep telling us they are attracted to, right?)
Going to bed peacefully! Before I go...
Stop being concerned about pushing her away. There was absolutely nothing you could have done to draw her closer than you are doing right now. First comes her shock and anger, then she try like heck to manipulate you and keep resorting to her bag of tricks. Then when she sees she can not affect you with her dramatics, she will get sad and depressed. All of this is part of the process. You surely did not expect her to fall into your arms when you gave her the BD. However, don't be totally shocked if she doesn't save that one for the final trick.
I thought about that sandi. She did this when she made the "i'll be in this family" promise to s11 then tragically took it away during her "breakdown." I can see her doing this again to me as we near Christmas. I imagine her giving me her real email/phone passwords and sending an NC letter to OM just to take it all back later. Seriously, I can see her doing that the way she was acting with the crying all night tonight.
If she does this... I was thinking of "That's not enough" (she said that to me after her BD when I was angrily listing all of my good points pre DB) or "don't insult my intelligence." Or simply... "Thank you W. I'm still not comfortable with you in the condo." Something that says "I know what you're doing nice try."
Can I word this better? Is this the correct thing to communicate? I can really see her doing this which is sad.
Thank you again everyone for all your help. I really hope good people are learning valuable lessons from my journey.
...
I'm thankful for sleeping pills.
Hopefully the shakes will be less tomorrow.
And I feel good right now. Good PMA. Even hopeful for my M. Extremely hopeful for my life though. And for s11's life too.
I feel like I can do it right now. I had a great day under pressure. I made mistakes but I did not fold.
I did not fold.
Just journaling...
I'm not feeling good PMA again. I woke up later than usual. W and s11 were already about to leave for school by the time I ice cold showered (very hard to do today) and got dressed. On her way out, W said goodbye to me like we're OK and said she would bring the car home later. That I would have to drive her to work so she could make a meeting.
"HAVE TO drive her to work."
I'm tired of telling her "No I won't do that." It's very hard for me to do and it is taking a serious toll on me now. She keeps asking me to do things to help her. She acts like her A is no problem b/c she separated while she makes a point to act transparent about not going to OM while her phone keeps beeping with incoming texts.
I've learned so much here about her thought process and what to expect... how she is now justifying her actions. But this thing she's doing... asking me for help... crying so much last night b/c I won't help her... is very painful for me right now. I know I'm not showing hurt around her... like I'm moving on. I say to her sad face that "I'm done with you" and "I don't want you in my home the way you're being now" (I know that's wrong... that I'm saying I'll take her back if she changes... so I'm changing that to "too late for you" starting now). But, she must know how horribly hurt I feel about what she's done. She does not really care how I feel. Especially now that she knows I know everything about her lies to me and s11 ... what kind of person is she that she can she stand to be here with me asking me to get in the condo, have Christmas with her, drive her to work, be nice to her, talk to her? How can she expect that I would respond to her at all after she's told me I should "punch her" over how terrible she's been. Her words. How can she stand to even look at me? I can barely stand to be near her right now.
It's when she's acting put together like nothing's wrong that really bothers me. When she's like that around s11 after what she did to him. How can she live with herself? I honestly want to get away from her.
Now I'm going to have to tell her to take a cab. Everyday she's giving me reasons to reject her... to tell her no. So many times last night I told her NO about getting in the condo... about being with her on Christmas. So many times. Every time hurt me. And immediately it starts again. "You have to drive me to work," she said. I HAVE TO? I was even thinking of meeting her at her office and then drive home from there so that I wouldn't have to tell her no but at the same time not drive her anywhere. Even that is helping her.
OK... feeling less bad now. In the morning I have very shaky moments. When I really remember how hurt I am that she has gone this way. That I had an opportunity right before this happened to change everything and I made stupid choices. I remember that I don't want to do this.
A bad moment. Time to keep frustrating my W's dreams.
...
Really going to get work done today. That is my main goal for today. One solid day of work.
Right now, W is expecting when she gets back home that I will drive her to work. I can text her now that she better get a cab to work so she can plan accordingly... "W... Better take a cab to work when you get home. I won't drive you to work." Or I can wait until she gets home and tell her to her face again (I told her the same yesterday when she asked). Any thoughts?
My brain is fried this morning. I'm tired and the day just started. I'll be better by this evening when she comes to test me as she's done everyday for weeks.
Just not right now.
Now she's calling me. I don't answer.
Time to start the day.
Got a VM from W saying she's feeling remorseful and sorry she does know how to fight (for our M). She's sorry she hurt me deeply. She said she doesn't blame me for how I feel or that I talked to a lawyer. She hopes we can treat each other with compassion for S11.
Sent her a text an hour later... "Hey W. Please do not call or text me unless it is an emergency for s11. Also, better take a cab to take you to work."
She texts "Sure HP. I will park the car on the street. You can pick it up. Is that OK?"
"That does not work for me. I am working"
"I will pick s11 up. No problem! Have a great day HP!"
So now a slapped down her "I feel remorseful and I'm sorry let's be nice" VM with "hey don't call me anymore and solve your own problems."
She is even more angry now no doubt. I see whenever she uses exclamation points in her texts like she's happy to talk to me when obviously she has no reason to... I'm about to get trouble.
Anyway... I'm still pulling way way way back and being a hardass.
Doesn't look like I want to be married. Was I wrong here?
Funny, it seems like I'm the only one on here giving their WAS such a hard time.
Thank you again for your help.
Great observation on the 16 year old games. I'm proud of you for taking the high road, putting yourself and the kids first.
I can see her as she was in her childhood, never shutting up when she was told no. Trying to wear her parents down until they finally gave in.....just to get peace! She is pulling the same cr@p with you.
Can I word this better? Is this the correct thing to communicate? I can really see her doing this which is sad.
I would look deep in her eyes and say very firmly, "W, my 'no' means exactly
that,
NO. I am not going to change my mind about Christmas or the condo, so please stop asking me".
HP, I think you are trying to be light hearted with her at times, like teasing about your birthday. Now, she knows you, so she should know when you are teasing. I think you just gave her something new to use for another performance of "These are the Days of HP's Poor Wife".
IMHO, this is not the time to try to get her to laugh, smile, nor to tease her or joke around. After seeing how that one backfired, I hope you will not do this again.
Why did she bring the clothes to your bedroom to iron? I noticed when you did not go to her while she was crying in the bathroom, she made a point to find you. She wants you to see how pitiful she is so you'll feel badly and give her what she wants. As a woman, this is really embarrassing to see her carry on like this, but I am not surprised. It is not uncommon for women to use their tears to soften a man's heart.
Something else you might consider if she just invites herself into your bedroom like she did with the ironing, "W, this is a hard time for everyone, and I'm sure you can understand that I prefer some space."
I imagine her giving me her real email/phone passwords and sending an NC letter to OM just to take it all back later. Seriously, I can see her doing that the way she was acting with the crying all night tonight.
Right. The timing isn't quite right yet. Her main focus Christmas, not the M.
If she does this... I was thinking of "That's not enough" (she said that to me after her BD when I was angrily listing all of my good points pre DB) or "don't insult my intelligence." Or simply... "Thank you W. I'm still not comfortable with you in the condo." Something that says "I know what you're doing nice try."
Can I word this better? Is this the correct thing to communicate? I can really see her doing this which is sad.
Well, I may get switches in my Christmas stockings for saying this, but I would just have to say, "Sorry, too little too late". Then walk away. That is a truth dart that really needs to penetrate.
You see, this is just a taste she will need to experience. She has to see for herself that you are through with her. You have decided you won't take whatever crumbs she decides to leave for you. She needs to see what it must have been like for you. (Only she can't really feel the same as you did.) That is why it is important that you don't cave while she's applying this pressure.
I feel like I can do it right now. I had a great day under pressure. I made mistakes but I did not fold.
YES YOU DID!
And you can do it again today. You start every day, it seems, with a good PMA...and it use to get shot down by her mood. Sometimes fear would creep in and ruin your PMA. Something I've learned about courage, HP, I want to pass along. Courage means doing it while afraid. (whatever "it" is). Feeling the fear does not mean you aren't brave, but doing it in spite of the fear takes courage.
HP,
I am firmly on Sandi's side on this one:
Well, I may get switches in my Christmas stockings for saying this, but I would just have to say, "Sorry, too little too late". Then walk away. That is a truth dart that really needs to penetrate.
You see, this is just a taste she will need to experience. She has to see for herself that you are through with her. You have decided you won't take whatever crumbs she decides to leave for you. She needs to see what it must have been like for you. (Only she can't really feel the same as you did.) That is why it is important that you don't cave while she's applying this pressure.
That ^^ is the crux of the whole matter: not accepting crumbs from WAW. I hope every LBH reads this and lets that sink in in their wet noodle minds.
HP, no it will signal the death knell of the M. Instead, it will signal the death knell of the Wet Noodle HP and show your W that you mean business when it comes to your boundaries.
I love this golden line from Sandi...such utter perfection!
I would look deep in her eyes and say very firmly, "W, my 'no' means exactly that, NO. I am not going to change my mind about Christmas or the condo, so please stop asking me".
I would still hire a cheap car for a month!
That's the only change!
You are doing really well, really well
Vanilla
Thank you Sandi, wonka, and Vanilla. Such incredible advice! Thank you so much. Count on me to keep following through on this path to the condo.
I am concerned about what I did this morning... the way I responded to W's "I'm so sorry let's be nice" VM with my "stop calling me" slap down. Right after I sent it, I found my "Please stop calling me" text kind of weak. I should have said something like "Thank you W for your VM. I appreciate you sharing with me. Now, no more calls or texts unless it's an S11 emergency. Thanks." I see now how wording is important.
And I will be ready. It looks like this morning was her sad phase and now I'm to get her anger again tonight. I'm wondering if she'll get drastic like getting a lawyer or going back on S11 moving on Sunday. I think she will. She has never gone a day without switching her position.
I'm glad you all think I'm doing well. This is a hard place to be... keeping calm while I make my wife cry. I forget for a second or 2 sometimes when that happens what she's done. I would prefer to comfort her. But, she has been brutal brutal brutal to me without an apparent second thought and certainly no comfort. Screaming F*ck You HP at me. ME! She's never done that in all our M. We've never had a huge fight until now.
I'm so thankful for all of you and this board for helping me get to this point. Withstanding this pressure is a good skill to have. I'm sure I'll have a chance to use your new scripts very soon.
I wonder what she's thinking/how she's feeling right now. She in constant planning it seems since she started on this path. When I first started turning the tables, she screamed "I had a process!" over and over. Her process was her plan to exit our M while protecting me and s11 from her "truth" and having her A. Once she called it her "fantasy." Wow.
Well, she'll be here in an hour. Time to get ready.
Life goes on.
You keep using terms like "slap down".
Be careful HP. Your goal is to be firm, resolved. Don't cross the line into mean, punitive territory.
These are your boundaries, not her punishments.
Thank you zew. That is may concern too... that I'm being punitive. I don't consider that consistently and recognize it is the intent and tone that can determine a punishment from an boundary. I took that response opportunity this morning to deliver the "don't call me" message... but then it did seem to me like a smack down as her message was "I'm so sorry." So yes I can see how my message this morning could be a mistake as it was worded weakly and punitively to me. Just got to keep going.
HP,
I found this comment very revealing:
When I first started turning the tables, she screamed "I had a process!" over and over. Her process was her plan to exit our M while protecting me and s11 from her "truth" and having her A.
Many WASes (not counting the MLCer) have their own little "plan" in their heads on how a S and D would work out and expect the LBS to trot in line with it. Or even roll over and expose their bellies to the WAS. All is well with a red bow on top of the LBS' hair.
That is until one upends their pretty "scenario" in their heads and they all turn into this little monster with spews filing right out of their mouths.
They are UPSET that they caught completely OFF GUARD when the LBS doesn't follow along their cute script. How dare you to throw a monkey wrench in their nicely wrapped plans with the OP and dreams of living on Rodeo Drive with gazillions of money.
Too funny! Yeah...Lisa, this is a great living and breathing Lifetime movie.
Hell, why don't we name this movie the Poirot Show after the fantastic movie,
The Truman Show (remember that one with Jim Carrey??) to make it more "real".
Last week living with W. She doesn't stop...
Get's home with s11. I was supposed to pick him up today... but I told W I would not drive her to work to do so. So she decided to go pick s11 up herself likely really inconveniencing her work or whatever schedule.
She comes in the bedroom where I'm sitting on the bed. She looks tense and tired as usual. Apologizes for being there and says she'll be right out. She has to change as she says she spilled coffee on herself... I guess on her socks b/c that's all she seemed to change.
Anyway, the air is tense. Then she starts talking about S11's day at school. He was sad in the morning so W informed the school of our separation in case he needs support. That's good I say. She says some other things and then laughs about finding $20 outside. I say s11 and I will get a desert. We laugh. A nice moment.
Then she's leaving to go back to work. She cheerily say's her transparency speech to me and S11... "I'm going back to work... then I have a doctor's appointment at 5:45 (her IC)... then I have to meet somebody in my office at 6:30. I'll be home by 8:30. Bye!"
And she leaves.
Meet "somebody." Mind reading. And she would enjoy it if I allowed that to be a dagger. So, it doesn't matter.
Almost out of here.
...
It would be amazing if we could ever be a couple again. We've been out of sync before... but now the vibration between us is really really severe. I feel my whole aura darkening when she's near. I can't imagine how she feels around me... although she seems able to act happy pretty well as she says she's been doing so for years. I wonder if she'll bring back a bottle. Likely she'll be having drinks after her IC.
...
Today I had a nice little fantasy of meeting a pretty woman living in the condo building while S11 and I are moving in. It's a big building... there must be a pretty single woman living there. We meet on the elevator. I tell her we are moving in. We chat. It's nice. She's exactly the kind of woman I like. She smiles and laughs easily. She's nice enough to come by later with a "welcome to the building" bottle of wine. We open it. Drink all of it. We talk more. It's really nice. We understand each other. She's smiling...
A really nice fantasy.
I am concerned about what I did this morning... the way I responded to W's "I'm so sorry let's be nice" VM with my "stop calling me" slap down. Right after I sent it, I found my "Please stop calling me" text kind of weak. I should have said something like "Thank you W for your VM. I appreciate you sharing with me. Now, no more calls or texts unless it's an S11 emergency. Thanks." I see now how wording is important.
You can also just stop listening to her voice mails and reading her texts while you are at work. You are playing into her hand. After work, read all the texts, listen to the voice mails and then just answer her in one text. Short and sweet..
Tell her you were busy at work and just read her texts and heard her voice mails. Busy men don't have time to fiddle faddle with personal stuff all day at work. Women are attracted to busy men who are going somewhere with their life.
Do you secretly like it when she keeps texting and calling you? If not, ignore them while work and and blame being busy at work for not answering her. This takes away the punitive portion. Answer AFTER work.. Or don't answer at all.....
Hmm... Something unexpected....
Just a few weeks ago... I believed was going to live with W for 6 more months. I thought I would have plenty of time to change and show her my changes. Like many newbies I was doing everything to impress W. Even worse at the beginning... my huge GAL explosion while looking for W to watch me. That weekend I did the weekend hackathon GAL that W said she felt so immensely proud of me for... W spent the night before with OM at his apartment. Me having s11 with me gave her more time with him. Imagine me doing that for 6 more months... dancing to catch her attention and make progress while she went off to spend evenings and overnights with her "girlfriend."
Now I'm actively frustrating my W. Not playing her gameplan, confronting her on her PA, exposing her lies, causing her to apologize to s11 for lying to him, causing her to make a promise to fix our family to s11 only for her to take it back, causing her to cancel her overnight and weekend plans with OM, causing her to move to the couch, surprising her by telling her she's not moving with us to the condo, making her "homeless", taking the car, telling her I'm done with her, making her cry, causing her "breakdown," taking all my money from the joint account away from her, telling her NO whenever she asks for help, refusing to let her in the condo, taking her drinks, causing her to act "transparent," taking away her family Christmas dream, and next I'm going to convince her that it is too late for her to get me back.
And, most interestingly, I'm getting excited about living my "not so married" single life. I have plans. I'm considering acting classes.
But now... the husband of a friend of W's sent me a message like "Sending you prayers and talk with me anytime." She's telling her friends.
I told some friends yesterday. I confidence told them she's having an A.
And I just now saw my W unfriended me on FB. Then she sent me a friend request. Then she took it back.
I'm not hurt badly. Of course that's the reality of this.
This is of course normal.
And, I know my life will be great... but I don't think my W will come back.
I'll live in the condo now for months. I'll see what she does now about sharing S11. I'll really move on.
But, right now, I'm hurt.
And I know she's hurt too.
I don't like any of this.
I understand the urge to draw a conclusion: she'll be back or she won't. I do it all the time, and I mean probably 20 times a day. But this is a marathon, a game of patience. You don't have to know just now. Uncertainty is hard, almost unbearable to humans. But this whole thing is hard. We're put into an ordeal that we couldn't have imagined a few weeks or months ago. Yet, we survive. I know I'm a changed man with much, much more empathy than before, among many other improvements.
If you can, try to spend a single day not knowing, not guessing how it will work out. If anything, it looks like you're taking the right steps and I admire your courage. A lot of us here are following your sitch and learning from it. By the way, thanks for coming to my thread to share what you've learnt in my sitch. It's inspiring.
Stay the course..
Women are attracted to happy, confident, emotionally strong men who have a backbone....
Be nice, not punitive. Be emotionally strong (I can do this)be confident ( self respect)... Have a backbone (never share a woman you love) when she wants another man.. (walk away with emotional strength by not being mean or punitive)(secretly they respect men who can walk away)..... let them free...
but I don't think my W will come back.
If you can quickly perfect the traits I listed above, then I sure wouldn't bet that she won't be back.
The interesting thing is that YOU will feel better about yourself.. It causes loss of self respect to keep trying to win someone over who is rejecting you. Show her you get it.. Loud and clear..
"You want another man and not me, okay, got it, you don't have to tell me again, I don't want to be with a woman who doesn't want to be with me. What was I thinking"Then do a 180 from that point on.. Just as you have done...
You ARE on the correct path now... Just fine tune a couple of things...
I am concerned about what I did this morning... the way I responded to W's "I'm so sorry let's be nice" VM with my "stop calling me" slap down. Right after I sent it, I found my "Please stop calling me" text kind of weak. I should have said something like "Thank you W for your VM. I appreciate you sharing with me. Now, no more calls or texts unless it's an S11 emergency. Thanks." I see now how wording is important.
You can also just stop listening to her voice mails and reading her texts while you are at work. You are playing into her hand. After work, read all the texts, listen to the voice mails and then just answer her in one text. Short and sweet..
Tell her you were busy at work and just read her texts and heard her voice mails. Busy men don't have time to fiddle faddle with personal stuff all day at work. Women are attracted to busy men who are going somewhere with their life.
Do you secretly like it when she keeps texting and calling you? If not, ignore them while work and and blame being busy at work for not answering her. This takes away the punitive portion. Answer AFTER work.. Or don't answer at all.....
Thanks Justin. Yes, I realized today, after I told my W to stop calling and texting me, that I do like it when she contacts me... even her terrible "I'm so sorry" messages I appreciate. It means she's thinking of me... even if it is with hate or frustration.
But that ends today. This is the second time I've told her to stop contacting me. I think this time it will stick. Which is good... I need to stop reaching for my phone and checking for her messages. I still do that even after all our drama. Just a couple nights ago after a horrible night we took a break and were friendly (I was drinking).
So, now that I'm leaving and she will stop calling and I never call her, we will have that break from each other. We won't see or really hear from each other. Hopefully for months. I think it will be easier for me as right now I can't bear to be near her most times. But I do miss her. I won't show it... and I beleive she won't miss me. But I'm ready to go.
Before, when I was struggling with my self respect as I was supporting and trying to win back a W who I thought was having an LDEA... I could have never imagined I would be this person sitting here who's done so much to stand up for himself against the woman he does still love but who wants another man and another life. I will never be that doormat again. If I have to kick my W to the street and burn my M to the ground to ever see it come back... or to ever have the M I want to have... then right here's my torch.
Onward.
Agree with Justin, HP. Time to stop the drama, and cut back like 95% on the contact.
All of this over-communication and DRAMA is just sapping you emotionally. It oozes from your posts. Time to re-invest that energy and focus into S11 and HP.
Starsky
HP
I count my fingers if I shake H hand, simply don't believe a word he says.
If your W were my H, then my thinking would be about cake. That OW would leave her SO after Xmas or the new year, and that H wanted to keep me hanging about until he knew for sure. And I can think of another 20 or 30 scenarios. They probably change every day.
Leave it alone HP, you are doing this for you and to give S11 a stability, a parent who is in control. To create love, harmony and serenity in your lives. An open pathway to your future. A little space to breathe, rest, recoup.
Stop fretting, what you are creating is going to be better than where you are. If W wakes up and smells the Roses then you are in a wholesome relationship with her. I do truly believe that to be the case and it is a real wake up call for her. She has hit her first brick wall and it's not moving. Silence says more than words, actions speak even louder. So don't respond unless you have to.
It is not over until the fat lady sings and she isn't even in the dressing room yet.
Vanilla
OK Starsky and Justin. I will just stay away from W and walk away from her talking. I do feel, though, that she will come with something else even worse. She's not giving up whatever she's doing. That, and yes, I am really beat up and emotionally empty right now. S11 is sad again and I am too. I don't want to go around with her again tonight and I have a feeling she'll come home from whatever she's doing with a lot of energy and another angle.
I'm tired and wearing out. I don't see an R here. I know 25 said this would last a year or more for my W. I believe that. Why do I want this horrible woman after she gives herself to OM for a year or more? I AM BETTER THAN THIS!
A year is much longer than I am willing to wait for this damn woman living in a city where I have nothing now. And after she's treated me and S11 this way... and then say we're her #1 priority. She's crazy. My dad was telling me to leave her behind. She is not worth much more of this. 6 years my dad covered for my mom who didn't want him. 6 years.
I don't want this.
I DO NOT WANT THIS ANYMORE!!!!!
HP
Stinking thinking, you know none of this.
You only know today and bitterness. Tomorrow is different.
Give yourself space, get off that ledge.
right now
Vanilla
*hug* I hear you, HP. You do not need to make any choices about anything right this moment. The world will not end or begin unless you to so. Take it one day at a time. One second by one second if you need to.
Just breathe.
I do feel, though, that she will come with something else even worse.
Probably... AND your point..
Women are attracted to HAPPY, CONFIDENT, EMOTIONALLY STRONG MEN..... MEN WHO HAVE A BACKBONE..
Be that man... you can do it....
Strong quiet strength.. Firm resolve... integrity.... self respect....
My dad was telling me to leave her behind.
Your dad sounds like a wise man. I'm telling you the same thing...... How can she chase you if you don't leave her behind? Do you want your son to listen to your advice? If so, listen to your dad...
You're actually doing quite well now. Just fine tune some things is all you need to do..
Go read the "Detachment" thread......
Stay strong and remember what women are attracted to..
HAPPY,CONFIDENT, EMOTIONALLY STRONG MEN WITH A BACKBONE...
I understand you are hurting and we hurt with you..
Just follow the plan and let her think you are doing just fine. Matter of fact, you have never been better...
HP,
You really need something to distract you for a while. How about taking your S11 to the mall for a picture with Santa? Or bring him to the local arcade and just play for a while. DO SOMETHING other than sitting at home and dwelling on your situation.
When your W comes home tonight, make yourself scarce and say you need to go. Then it's her turn to babysit S11.
I know this is a tough road....one more week. That will go by quickly.
Thank you everyone. Had a very bad moment. It's gone.
S11 is a little sick with cough. I'll have him in my bed tonight. We're going to sleep.
W is late. Her supermom streak is over then.
Tomorrow GAL pizza party at the condo with dad and S11.
I'll do better tomorrow with work.
I'm focused on me and s11.
Thank you again. We'll make it to the condo.
It takes two to have a conversation, HP. A fire needs oxygen to burn. STOP providing the add'l oxygen to these AD NAUSEUM conversations, and they WILL stop.
It's that simple. Not EASY, but simple. It's basic self-discipline.
Starsky
HP,
I hope your little man gets better soon. When I was sick, I loved the fact that my father would fuss over me. Showed that he cared and loved me.
Thank you everyone for your support. Even after going to bed, last night turned a little rough. Even after keeping my STFU promise Starsky... this morning was rougher...
Last night W comes home singing (she plays lovely girl power music in the car) from her IC and a meeting with "somebody" and comes into the bedroom. We are still awake but in bed in the dark. S11 immediately says again to W that he doesn't like when she works late and she hasn't been around. She gets agitated. Reminds s11 she's been home most of the past few days. Then gives him (and me) a detailed description of her evening and who she met with. She said it was a client dinner. Told him the restaurant and all about her client, a woman, and what they talked about.
Then, with S11 right there in bed between us, she says with anger in her voice "Hello HP, how are you?"
I very relaxed say "fantastic." I said nothing else.
In the same angry tone but louder... "Do you want to see my restaurant receipt and my car park ticket?!?! Would that help you?!?!"
I can't remember the script so I calmly with a smile say "W, you don't have to tell me what you do."
"Have you been telling S11 something?"
When s11 texted "why did you lie?" to her a few nights before, she thought I coached him into it. She is afraid I am bad mouthing about her to s11. I am not. I don't have to.
"No W. I don't talk about anything with him."
"Well, that would be a shame if you did!"
And I laughed. A really big, long, full belly laugh.
W sounds shaken, said she was going to shower and left.
S11 asked what's funny. I said "Your mom said something really funny."
...
This morning I make sure to wake up on time... ice cold shower. I come out but don't go downstairs. I want to stay away from W. PMA OK.
She comes to me. Immediately starts to talk about buying boxes for the final move. This is the first thing she's said to me today.
"When are we going to get together to pack?" she then says.
I am fighting not to say "We're not doing anything together." I don't say it. I feel fury coming.
I calmly say "Let's not talk about this now W. You should go downstairs and help S11."
She keeps talking.
I slowly get up to leave. I slowly walk by her. She is still talking. I'm trying very hard.
I slowly turn look at her in her eyes. I see her shrink so I know my look can't be good.
I tell her calmly "I don't want to talk with you right now. You better go downstairs and help S11."
And she asks "What did I do to you?"
What did I do to you...
She leaves. I get back on the bed and lie down.
A few minutes later she comes back.
"By the way" she tries to calmly say, "I have an appointment with a lawyer later today. You may have to go to court with me next week. I'm concerned I can't get into the (bank) account to buy boxes."
I sigh out loud.
I'm not giving her that one, so I slowly get up and leave the room without a word.
I'm downstairs with s11 when she comes down. She, scurrying around getting coffee and putting on her shoes. She's agitated. She's avoiding my eyes.
Then she suddenly starts talking about boxes and moving like everything's OK. I answer her very briefly and a little friendly so she keeps talking. We agree on some plans. I know what she's doing... saying something to unbalance me then talk friendly and get agreement to feel in control. She's done this many times already. I give this to her as I see she's agitated and s11 in right there.
I do not take my eyes of her. Eventually she looks me in the eye and tries to hold it. She can't for long.
I hug s11. W says goodbye to me like all's OK and says she's bring to car back. They walk out the door. I hear the car start.
Then she walks back in by herself. She's crying. She says "I wasn't supposed to do that. I wasn't supposed to lash out at you. Last night my IC made me a list of things I'm supposed to do. I was lashing out at you with what I said about the lawyer."
"Why did you say that?" I calmly ask.
She, crying, said something like... "b/c you looked at me so mad and I lashed out. I have all these issues from when I was a little girl. The need to feel cared for... the need to control... All these things. I am so wrong. Everything I've done is wrong. All of this that's happening is my fault. You've done nothing wrong. IC said you are in the driver's seat. I will support anything you want to do. I am wrong. I was telling my dad last night that you are a great man. You would be so better off without me. So better off. I'm so sorry."
I STFU. Just listened. I looked at her evenly and without comfort.
Then she left.
Then she came back.
"And, if my business takes off and I can fly back and forth, I want you and s11 to go to Florida. Maybe in middle school. Not now. I want to give that to you."
Then she left.
Then she came back.
Said something about the car making a funny noise. I said I'd look into it.
And she finally, finally left.
...
So I didn't engage. I just sat there or walked out the room. She still managed to talk a lot.
Maybe her IC is a good one. Maybe I should sit in on her sessions like my dad did with my mom.
I know none of this means or changes anything. I'm still focused on the move. I'm still pulling way way way back. I need to stay away from her if I get angry as I see I'm guilting her and pressuring her.
I'm tired and the day just started.
Tonight GAL with s11 and dad at the condo.
5 days until we move to the condo.
Then, with S11 right there in bed between us, she says with anger in her voice "Hello HP, how are you?"
I very relaxed say "fantastic." I said nothing else.
"Well, that would be a shame if you did!"
And I laughed. A really big, long, full belly laugh.
I slowly get up to leave. I slowly walk by her. She is still talking. I'm trying very hard.
I slowly turn look at her in her eyes. I see her shrink so I know my look can't be good.
I have to ask if you can see the latent hostility in your actions and words. If I were your W, I'd be off put by this. There's no validation and nothing but an air of resentment.
Trust me, I get it. I understand totally what you're feeling and why you're feeling it. You are 100% entitled to feel that way, but your W needs to SEE something else from you, right now.
If you have to fake it, be the biggest, best, most bad-ass faker on the planet, but stop letting W see someone that's passive-aggressive and unpleasant to interact with.
What would happen if you suddenly just started being agreeable to everything? "When can we talk about this move?" "When would you like to talk about it? I have X days free, or I can make time in Y capacity." See if her eyeballs don't fall out of her head and her brain doesn't start functioning differently now that what she's EXPECT of you didn't happen.
Thank you so much Little. Yes I do clearly see how angry I was this morning and how I do things punitively when I get emotional. It is why I know I have to stay away from her and I failed to do that and to completely control my feelings this morning. I am concerned that the moves I've made recently and the firm to pissed-off attitude have taken lately have shaken up my W very much. It is a far cry from the very friendly and empathetic approach I took weeks ago.
At this point, with her in a very active A that she will not stop, it seems the "I'm not taking your cr*p W" approach is working to help me get what I need to get done done... mainly getting to the condo with s11, letting my W know that I am not rolling over for her plan, that I do not tolerate her actions, that I will not be her plan B and disrespected while she figures this out, and that I will leave her and our M completely and without friendship or any kind of support if she keeps this up.
What she expected was me to be accommodating and to breakdown and beg her to stay. Too keep living with her and supporting her financially for months while she slept in another bed. Instead, if she wants to get back in to this M, she will need to keep working on herself by herself and on her own dime as I do the same in a very separate space from her. My W reacts to leadership and will eat weakness alive. I will not help her blow up this family in any way.
One observation... I'm not going to follow up with W on her IC visit or anything else she said this morning. I do admit I am very interested in this list the IC made for her. I admit to wanting to sit in MC with her. I admit I am interested in her feeling I'm better off without her. I admit I'm surprised she told me all this just now. She has talked recently about her self esteem issues.
Even so, there is nothing I can do about it. I'm glad I did not jump in and try to fix anything while she was talking this morning. And showing interest goes against my acting "as if" I am done with her and moving away. I do recognize she has said some terrible things recently to try to play me and gain control. I do recognize she seems desperate for her A to work out. That, and shows no compassion for me even though she asks for compassion from me every day recently.
Even though this morning's speech from her seems like progress, she could say anything to get whatever she wants. She knows how much I want to move to Florida. I am a kind man (I really am) so my first instinct is to ease up on her or reassure her. So, best to just make a note of anything interesting she says and STFU and keep moving out. She will deal with her issues on her own.
HP, one thing that sort of jumps out at me (and I agree with Little that you are being hostile and passive aggressive)... it sort of sounds like you admit that you don't have great control over your emotions and resort to anger, etc... but it also sounds like you are excusing it (like, if W wouldn't be having an A and lying to me all the time, then I wouldn't have an anger problem!)
But here's the thing: the changes you make during DB are for YOU and your future. Maybe this M won't work out... but there will be conflicts that arise in your next relationship, won't there? What can you work on changing about yourself NOW... what skills can you practice NOW so that you will be a better YOU in your next R?
Thanks, Claire. I was going to reply but couldn't find a way to put what you so wonderfully did.
There's a balance between boundaries that state you won't put up with certain things AND controlling the interactions into positive changes so that you're you're doing 180s. Then you're not showing your spouse the "same old behaviors" that contributed to making them WASes in the first place.
The balance can (and needs to be) be found. If for no one else but yourself; the WAS's reaction to it is a side benefit.
Thank you claire. I admit my anger/hostility is a problem I am causing. When I do that I am being counterproductive to my goal. I should not at all sound like I excuse it in my writing and when I do I am wrong. I will look for times when I do make this mistake (I'm sure b/c I'm feeling it as I write) and correct it.
What I get from my writing is a review of my actions. I try to be as honest as possible b/c I read my posts over and over to try to learn. I do admit when I see I did something wrong so I can get better.
I do see improvements. I am a lot less angry generally than when I began and I can get through entire conversations with W screaming at me without getting angry. That is when I'm prepared with good PMA. This morning and the past few days I have struggled a bit with preparation and PMA first thing in the AM (when I still get shakes) and later at night. I am aware of this and do things like eating more protein (eggs) which clears my head.
Still... thank you Claire and Little for pointing my mistakes out to me. My first thread was titled "I'm so ANGRY to be here" and yes I do still have some to go to get this major issue under control. You are right and I am really working on it. I did fail last night and this morning and I will do better tonight.
I should also say, my anger was not an issue in our M. We never had fights like now. My issue mostly was depression and being too emotionally dependent on my W. Letting her wear the pants. She was the angry one (at me and her life). Her seeing me angry like this at her is new for her. Not that that make a difference. It still has to go.
Hey HP!I'm so happy to get back from my GAL weekend and NOT find you on the ledge again!
Whew!!!
I get to live another day.
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Wow. So much to digest from the new posts here on your thread.First of all--the conversation with your father was incredible. It answered so many questions... and for him to open up like that and revisit all that pain because he knew it would help you, his son, that says a lot about him as a person.
I bet you feel closer to him than you ever did before. Now you have this awful thing in common...I'm sure he will be very supportive of your efforts to carve out a good life for yourself and your son going forward. Whether or not W decides she will do what it takes to be a part of that plan remains to be seen.
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And while I completely agree with claire and Little about making sure you don't come off as passive-aggressive or punitive, I understand that right now you're doing the best you can. I'm pretty sure it's all you can do to:
1. Not blow up at her
2. Not start trying to talk sense into her
3. Not say something you're going to regret.
So yeah---I get it.
If you give off an undercurrent of "I'm really hurt and angry, and yes, this stinks for S11, and it's all your fault!" then, for now, so be it. As long as you don't say or do anything other than look upset or have a curt tone.
If you could project a vibe of friendly civility and inner contentment and security, that would be great.
But I think that will come later after you have moved and have achieved a certain level of detachment.
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I have been separated for almost a year now and I still have days where I can't talk to H because I'm just too angry/upset/hurt.
But I have the luxury of him not living here, so I don't have to see him if I don't want to. That helps a LOT.
In your case, W is coming in and out, getting in your face and blowing hot and cold over and over and over... I honestly think you are doing an incredible job not engaging with a person who is trying her utmost to manipulate the situation and push your buttons while you are already feeling extremely vulnerable.
Having "the shakes" is a sign that your body is reacting to the stress. I had that too. You really need to take care of yourself, HP.
I'm hoping when you get moved you can breathe a sigh of relief and let your body recover from the overload of stress hormones/neurotransmitters.
It's real stuff, and it is debilitating.
I am impressed with your dietary awareness and the cold shower routine... well, I've done that twice now and it does have an effect! (I'm not sure exactly what the effect is, but it certainly gets my mind off my sitch.)
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On a good day, long before BD and all this emotional pain, you would have been hard pressed to come off like "Everything's just PEACHY!" with someone in your face like this day after day.
Throw in the trauma from your situation and the realization that life as you know it is over and will never be the same... well, I think you're doing pretty darn well.
Especially considering where you were a few weeks ago.
Once you get moved and settled, and you can pick and choose more interaction times with W, get started on getting your underlying emotions in check so you can come off as more compassionate and caring.
Claire and Little are correct about that.
On the other hand, I think now W needs to see a very strong HP who is moving forward as SHE has stated she wants.
You can warm up to her more after you get your head straight.
Only a few more days.
You can do this!
Baby steps....
---(G)GGGPS: I never had "an anger problem" in our R, or in general. However, after BD and OW, I was EXTREMELY angry. It was situational, it was because of the trauma of his betrayal, the fear, the pain... I was hurt more deeply than I'd ever been. Nothing even came close. And to see him not care one bit how what he'd done affected me, to act as though it was no big deal because, as he'd said, "he had never loved me anyway, told OW this, therefore what they did was OK since our marriage was already over, and had never been real to begin with." I'm paraphrasing, but that was it.
As if MY experience of our M was just a silly idea I had. And then to watch how he continued to lie and hurt me. Well, I am NOT a doormat and I did get angry.
I don't get angry about stupid things, but injustice---INJUSTICE and entitlement and bending the rules to serve your selfish desires while hurting good people in the process... well, that was just too much to take.
So I'm sure I was a shrew---I KNOW I was. But that's not who I AM.
It is who I became under those circumstances. I finally got myself under control, but it took kicking him out, finding this board, and learning how to control my emotions that was the key.
These days, I still get angry, but I can let it go. You'll be able to do it too.
Anger is a feeling, and it is not wrong to feel it. There are healthy ways to process it.
The idea that your anger must come out in your behavior, through hostile tones and passive aggressive tactics, is the problem. You can't control your feelings but you can control your behavior.
An anger problem is letting your anger, instead of your brain, dictate your behavior.
Adinva,
I'm sorry if it came across that I think projecting anger is okay, or that it's not possible to control those emotions and get perspective on why you're feeling that way.
I agree with everything you said above ^^^^.
In HP's case, he's having a hard enough time keeping his mouth shut and not shooting himself in the foot with his actions.
Controlling his anger process is something he will need to work on once he gets some equilibrium. I'm sure he will get a tighter rein on his emotions as his sitch progresses.
I absolutely believe we can--and should---control our behavior. And that in itself helps to control our emotions. But those skills need to be learned, and that takes time.
--(G)GGG
Thank you GG and Adinva. I agree with you GG that I'm not an angry person but I sure am angry now. This is not me and not what I want and I do see I can choose my behavior. I can practice not being blinded by my anger and act according to my goals. I have been doing that more that not until recently. Yes the reality of the full scope of my W's PA and her actions to keep it is often more than I can bear emotionally. I may sound OK in some of these interactions... but I am really far from OK. I am devastated and broken and struggling.
All of these things you mentioned GG I am afraid of failing at...
1. Not blow up at her
2. Not start trying to talk sense into her
3. Not say something you're going to regret.
This morning, when I walked by her, I had a terrible thought. I fought not to do #1.
While she was telling me how wrong she was... I fought not to do #2.
When she says things like "What did I do to you?" or "Why are you sad?" When she acts like what's she's doing is OK b/c people do it everyday and it's just how she feels and I should just feel the same way... I fight to not do #3.
Even with all I've learned... it is unbelievable to me still that anyone could treat someone like this and still expect that someone to be a friend.
I really appreciate your story GG. It sounds a lot like mine in the attitude that our WASs share.
And the shakes were less today. I find yelling as hard as I can helps get through the shakes. I did cry a little when I read your post b/c I recognize so much of it.
I can do that inner contentment vibe. It takes preparation. I imagine living in Florida or the pretty lady I meet in my imagination.
I try not to image seeing W ever asking to really build a new M. Every time she does something like this morning... when she seems to recognize that what she's doing is wrong and horribly painful... I go wet noodle and every time it hurt. Not this time. I don't even believe her on Florida. She talked about feeling trapped in our M. Now I feel trapped with her.
I'm curious what anyone thinks of what she said. It seems an easy thing to just say you're wrong and damaged and not worth the trouble so you can justify continuing to do wrong. That's the way I took it. Is she learning anything? She'll go to this IC every week now unless she stops again.
Hell... it doesn't matter. Next week I'll just be focused on me and s11. Hopefully, when she has him, he'll be happy and she won't be irritable with him.
Also, I thought I saw a comment a few posts back that my W is not MLC. Is that true? Just b/c I read on this now... it seems she is MLC b/c she didn't like her whole life... job, family, me, everything. Just curious.
Anyway... thank you for your posts. Even though I let my anger show... I appreciate that you feel I'm doing the best I can. I really am stretching myself. She does have anxiety so she has told me her mind is always racing. She's a talker... especially when she's anxious. That and she wants to be heard and seen and valued. So she'll keep pushing while I'm available. I know I am giving her none of the things she wants and get elsewhere right now and it is difficult to imagine doing so more often.
Right now I just want to disappear from her life as much as possible so I can breathe.
And now she texts me. She would like to increase the lease on our current place by one week b/c she needs more time. Again asking me for help. Everyday she wants my help.
Ignoring. I don't think I'm going to to that.